U27 Items Official Discussion - Round 2

[Steelstar]

This is the official discussion thread for U27 items in the new round of Lamannia! Yes, we get an official thread this time. :)

Item Updates:


Five more items for the U27 Raid have been created.
The Test Dojo cabinet now contains all U27 items that are in the current build.
Heroic U27 items that had +5 bonuses to individual saves have been bumped to +8
The U27 Khopesh and Greataxe have had their material type changed to Flametouched Iron
Heroic U27 items that had +5 to Ability Scores have been bumped to +6
Resonation and the Lantern Ring no longer replace each other's bonuses
The U27 Buckler is no longer a Small Shield
The Epic Shield of Tireless Aid is now properly made of Densewood


A few other notes for things not in this build:

We're planning on making the Greataxe's crit multiplier x4.
We're planning on making all of the weapons in this pack either Cold Iron or Flametouched Iron.
We're planning on having a Longsword in the Raid, looking something like this:

+13, Improved Banishing, Sovereign Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Armor Piercing 20%, Doublestrike 15%, Red Augment Slot, Orange Augment Slot (Crit Range of 17-20)

[slarden]

I like the changes.

My only suggestion is that the greataxe should have sovereign vorpal instead of improved banishing so it's useful in more content.

[thomascoolone64]

This is the official discussion thread for U27 items in the new round of Lamannia! Yes, we get an official thread this time. :)

Item Updates:


Five more items for the U27 Raid have been created.
The Test Dojo cabinet now contains all U27 items that are in the current build.
Heroic U27 items that had +5 bonuses to individual saves have been bumped to +8
The U27 Khopesh and Greataxe have had their material type changed to Flametouched Iron
Heroic U27 items that had +5 to Ability Scores have been bumped to +6
Resonation and the Lantern Ring no longer replace each other's bonuses
The U27 Buckler is no longer a Small Shield
The Epic Shield of Tireless Aid is now properly made of Densewood



A few other notes for things not in this build:

We're planning on making the Greataxe's crit multiplier x4.
We're planning on making all of the weapons in this pack either Cold Iron or Flametouched Iron.
We're planning on having a Longsword in the Raid, looking something like this:

+13, Improved Banishing, Sovereign Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Armor Piercing 20%, Doublestrike 15%, Red Augment Slot, Orange Augment Slot (Crit Range of 17-20)


Heya Steel, the Greataxe's Superior Force Burst Effect doesnt seem to be Showing up. Has this been fixed?

[legendkilleroll]

New goggles look nice, +12 wis, +4 insight wis, +3 enhanced Ki

Sure someone will have screenshots soon, was a +12 int belt and +12 cha cloak i believe too

[Wizza]

Good news. Let's hope raid is fun.

[Steve_Howe]

New goggles look nice, +12 wis, +4 insight wis, +3 enhanced Ki

My monk wants this for sure!






We're planning on having a Longsword in the Raid, looking something like this:

+13, Improved Banishing, Sovereign Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Armor Piercing 20%, Doublestrike 15%, Red Augment Slot, Orange Augment Slot (Crit Range of 17-20)



My S&B Pally wants this!

[HuneyMunster]

Countenance cloak: -
Cha 12
Evo V
Rad Lore X
Spen VI
Quality Vertigo +2?


Why does this item have vertigo surely is a mistake?

I would prefer to see Insightful Charisma instead of Rad Lore and Vertigo as would make it a must have item for a large number of caster builds. You could also change Vertigo for Insightful Evocation.

[Vanhooger]

I would prefer to see Insightful Charisma instead of Rad Lore and Vertigo as would make it a must have item for a large number of caster builds. You could also change Vertigo for Insightful Evocation.

that would be nice but, I think this is a warlock item, more than anything.

[Steelstar]

Countenance cloak: -
Cha 12
Evo V
Rad Lore X
Spen VI
Quality Vertigo +2?


Why does this item have vertigo surely is a mistake?

I would prefer to see Insightful Charisma instead of Rad Lore and Vertigo as would make it a must have item for a large number of caster builds. You could also change Vertigo for Insightful Evocation.

Ooh! Yeah, that's not supposed to be there. There's supposed to be a Green Augment Slot in its place.

[fmalfeas]

Charisma, evoc DC, and Vertigo would work nicely for a bard. Radiance in the mix makes it good for clerics and FvS as well. The cha being ignored, it's solid for druids as well. Also, radiance, vertigo, charisma all would work excellently for an Enlightened Spirit warlock. It could also be used by a paladin, with the Evoc DC boosting ED powers.

[Portalcat]

Can we get some kind of summary post for the loot at the top given that this is an official thread?

Without screenshots or a written list of the loot, you literally have to have lammania open side-by-side with the thread to interpret the discussion.

[Loromir]

This is the official discussion thread for U27 items in the new round of Lamannia! Yes, we get an official thread this time. :)

Item Updates:


Five more items for the U27 Raid have been created.
The Test Dojo cabinet now contains all U27 items that are in the current build.
Heroic U27 items that had +5 bonuses to individual saves have been bumped to +8
The U27 Khopesh and Greataxe have had their material type changed to Flametouched Iron
Heroic U27 items that had +5 to Ability Scores have been bumped to +6
Resonation and the Lantern Ring no longer replace each other's bonuses
The U27 Buckler is no longer a Small Shield
The Epic Shield of Tireless Aid is now properly made of Densewood


A few other notes for things not in this build:

We're planning on making the Greataxe's crit multiplier x4.
We're planning on making all of the weapons in this pack either Cold Iron or Flametouched Iron.
We're planning on having a Longsword in the Raid, looking something like this:

+13, Improved Banishing, Sovereign Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Armor Piercing 20%, Doublestrike 15%, Red Augment Slot, Orange Augment Slot (Crit Range of 17-20)




Very Nice...Great Axe just became something to farm for.

[WiseFreelancer]

A couple of the old items have also been changed (in addition to the above):

-Epic Armbands of the Silent Ones now has Insightful Dex 3 instead of Seeker
-Sheltering now has Constitution 12 in addition to previous effects

All in all, I think the raid items now look excellent, and there's something for almost all toons in there. The goggles are almost too good - though clearly aimed at wis-based monks, who can definitely use the help. Haven't tried the raid yet, but I feel like the raid items in particular have some good aesthetic feel to them too, in terms of combinations of effects.

[Wipey]

Without screenshots or a written list of the loot, you literally have to have lammania open side-by-side with the thread to interpret the discussion.
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/469/19743373372_4fd9bb7e10_o.jpg

[Loromir]

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/469/19743373372_4fd9bb7e10_o.jpg

I like the teleport clickie.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

wondering what the reasons for leaving +12 stun and speed 15 off the boots are.

i get that +12 stun maybe doesnt fit thematically, but comparing just the hooks to innocents, innocents are better.

its also wildly confusing to me that the boots dont have at least 30% *striding*, forgetting about speed 15. its ok that they dont for some people, since they can just go back to quiver of alacrity, but this might screw someone else.

and for the alacrity part, is this to potentially make haste a spell worth a raid stacking up for because we wont be seeing speed on items in the future? i could get behind that, if thats the case. or is it because there is going to be an anchoring effect in the new raid and so it wont matter anyway? if there is going to be a need for anchoring and its not a raid environmental effect or a temporary raid buff or whatever, and its going to come on say, boots, why bother leaving striding/speed off of these boots?

[the_one_dwarfforged]

i now see the +15 stun goggles, which i know are going to make many people happy, myself included. honestly making me consider going centered kensei again instead of pure fighter just because its so much wis all in one place, lol...

however, if i switch to the new goggles, helm, and boots, i will now have absolutely nowhere to put exceptional seeker. unless i want to play the item swap game, which id prefer not having to.

edit: yes i would, good bye 45 resists :*(

[JOTMON]

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/469/19743373372_4fd9bb7e10_o.jpg

Now these are sweet looking items.

[Ovrad]

I really like the goggles.

...Monks could still need a new outfit though.

[FuzzyDuck81]

+3 enhanced ki? ok, now *that* is something almost every monk will want

[pitong]

how many updates untill DDO will be full jRPG? we will have hundreads of thousands HP, millions damage, mobs will have billions HP and we will handle swords three times bigger than us? the power creep turned to power sprint.
+12 ability items, +6 tomes in constant sale. I bet we will have some temporary offers of +7 tomes in next few months.
instead of making any new gear OP and old gear irrelevant and outdated, make new stuff with old effects but with new combinations. also some sets would be great. some old gear like for example VON stuff is asking for itself to be a set, some of those items have even almost the same names - kundarak delving googles/suit/boots.
when you have no ideas for new content, or just have no money/time for it, make new difficulty setting for old epic quests. call it whatever and make it's quest level the max level possible in given moment. add some items that would conver old epic item to new shiny version with a bit higher bonuses. just don't make drop rate like it was for sos shard for years.

[Sebastrd]

how many updates untill DDO will be full jRPG? we will have hundreads of thousands HP, millions damage, mobs will have billions HP and we will handle swords three times bigger than us? the power creep turned to power sprint.
+12 ability items, +6 tomes in constant sale. I bet we will have some temporary offers of +7 tomes in next few months.
instead of making any new gear OP and old gear irrelevant and outdated, make new stuff with old effects but with new combinations. also some sets would be great. some old gear like for example VON stuff is asking for itself to be a set, some of those items have even almost the same names - kundarak delving googles/suit/boots.
when you have no ideas for new content, or just have no money/time for it, make new difficulty setting for old epic quests. call it whatever and make it's quest level the max level possible in given moment. add some items that would conver old epic item to new shiny version with a bit higher bonuses. just don't make drop rate like it was for sos shard for years.

Unfortunately, I think that ship sailed a long time ago.

[Krumm]

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/469/19743373372_4fd9bb7e10_o.jpg


Just some comments on these items.

Before I start, I know developers have spent a lot of time & effort working these up. Much appreciated and I look forward the new quest pack.


I am going to assume that these are raid items.
As such, these items, IMO, are competing (for equipment slots) with completed Thunder-forged items and/or Fire on Thunder Peak/Temple of Death Wyrm items.


Belt of Braided Beards - Spell Resistance (35) is pretty useless at this level (unless it's stacking); 12 Int and Teleport clicky is all it's good for, Superior Resistance while somewhat useful, small side benefit at most.
Recommend: Add one or more of these effects. +3 or +4 insightful Int, +40 or +45 resist all elements, make SR bonus smaller and stackable

Countenance - Ok as is but would consider making Radiance XI and/or Evocation VI and/or add +3/+4 insightful Cha. (you can loose the augment slot(s) to balance the item if more than 1 of suggested effect is added)

Strange Tidings - Ok as it but consider adding improved deception (stacks with deception VIII... right?) or make a mythic version with improved deception.

Dissolution - Ok as is, consider raising Acid Lore to 22% and/or Conjuration Focus to VI but probably not both.

Visions of Precision - extremely powerful, even if you consider it for stat bonus only. No change.



Just as a side note.
I would love to see some randomness (return) on future raid items.
While player on forum would rage (and call me names), more raids will be run and the wow factor will be kept alive (much longer).
As is, if you get an item, there isn't a reason to run them any more.
The randomness IMO can be in range of bonus, deception V ~X, Insightful stat +2 ~ 4, fire resistance 40 ~ 55 for example; and or 1 ~ 3 or more random effects from a list.
I should note that small chance to make a perfect or almost OP (but not quite) item would make things much more interesting (and powercreep will eventually make it less OP/perfect any ways)
Also more than one random element per item would be preferable.

[Ape_Man]

i would love to see some randomness (return) on future raid items.

hell no!

[Xerio]

any chance of having radiant spell power added to the countenance cloak?
ditch an augment slot if you feel the need to balance it out, those bracers are awesome with all of the corrosion spell power/lore and conj focus on one item! something I'll definitely be after!
It would be awesome to see the same on the cloak, seeing as it's orange boarder I'm assuming it's a raid drop item.

The vertigo doesn't make much sense on that one either, so maybe replace that with radiant spell power?

[Steve_Howe]

I would love to see some randomness (return) on future raid items.

Not no, but HELL no!

I have ZERO interest in running the raid 20 times on my Monk for the end reward only to get the really cool goggles with a +4 Exceptional Bonus to CHA instead of the +4 Exceptional Bonus to WIS!

Forget that!

[UurlockYgmeov]

I like what I see so far. Am glad that the unofficial loot thread had a positive effect.

Thank you for listening and adjusting! Keep up the great work.

Personally - the Heroic items are much more interesting because I spend almost zero time at cap.

[Blackheartox]

Do notice how belt has 35 spell resist listed but in description it says 30, either way it will be useless but pointing it out.

Helm from raid is extremely strong now, will it stay that way?

[LightBear]

Thx for the new items.

Any news on the promised new augments?

And, still no finesse weapons?

[Steve_Howe]

Do notice how belt has 35 spell resist listed but in description it says 30, either way it will be useless but pointing it out.

Agreed. In level 28 quests and higher, 35 Spell Resistance is just as useless as 30. It's not until we get to 50+ Spell Resistance and higher where I see it actually making a difference.

[Cetus]

This is the official discussion thread for U27 items in the new round of Lamannia! Yes, we get an official thread this time. :)

Item Updates:

[LIST]
Five more items for the U27 Raid have been created.


Nice looking items, a few tweaks can be made here and there - will comment later.



A few other notes for things not in this build:
[LIST]
We're planning on making the Greataxe's crit multiplier x4.


Thank you! This is much better.



We're planning on having a Longsword in the Raid, looking something like this:
[LIST]
+13, Improved Banishing, Sovereign Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Armor Piercing 20%, Doublestrike 15%, Red Augment Slot, Orange Augment Slot (Crit Range of 17-20)
]

That looks interesting, great threat range - whats the base damage?

[jakeelala]

let me just say I'm flattered how many of my suggestions you took to heart, and I wonder if we could get a complete accounting of all of the items. I can't get onto Lama to look at all the items sadly. Long story, but I can't install Lama for space reasons (I run on a laptop).

A couple comments:

Adding +12 stats is bold, and is a little power creepy. Are you sure you want to do this? What if you backed them down to 11, but but added some more useful things as a trade off?

The goggles while clearly amazing for a Monk, are really going to be the best Goggles for many builds due to having both +12 Wisdom and +4 Insight Wisdom. That's the best possible stat consolidation item in the entire game. I support having +4 Insight stat mods available, but maybe not on the same items that have the +12 version of the same stat. At least, leave that for mythic or Reaper or whatever.

Spell Resistance values really need a closer look as mentioned above: even at 35 they are too low to be meaningful, unless you make it stacking. Also it says (35) SR but the description reads 30.

Deception 8 on a Ring with 12 dex is amazing, and my Thrower is crying with joy. I will mention however that the other best Sneak Attack damage body item in the game, t he Dragon Masque, which gives Insight Sneak Attack (+6/+9) also has Deception, so maybe this should be Improved Deception, A La the Seal of Avi'Thoul, which is currently tied with Backstabber gloves (EE) as really awesome Sneak Attack items to slot. You could also just change this to Insight Sneak Attack, and really throw SA damage itemization for a loop. Ideally, you would remove UMD from this ring, and add +7/8% Doubleshot/strike. This would make it highly coveted for A LOT of builds that are Dex based, both Ranged and Melee. This wouldn't overall make it more powerful, but it would make it a lot more compelling from an itemization standpoint, as those stats are currently only available on Abbot quiver, lvl 26 Bracers from Wheloon, and Mythic Veneer.

The belt will be welcomed for it's 12 Int, but it means people can't wear either of the belts from Epic Orchard which are quite popular and Chord of Reprisals is caster focused. Not a huge issue, but worth considering. Go ahead and just make the Belt give 40 Resist to All elements, a la the Dumathoin's Bracers from Fire Dragon raid.

Countenance is good, but But caster are getting Radiance Lore from HH ring now, or TF weapon. I would give this a stacking Crit buff to Radiance spells (2-3%), and 10% SP savings. Maybe give 1 or 2 levels of Arcane Aug too. Or maybe a 10% stacking cooldown reduction on Light Based spell casts (if that's possible.

I would consider similar changes to the Bracers, as well.

Anyway, just some suggestions.

[jakeelala]

A few other notes for things not in this build:

We're planning on making the Greataxe's crit multiplier x4.
We're planning on making all of the weapons in this pack either Cold Iron or Flametouched Iron.
We're planning on having a Longsword in the Raid, looking something like this:

+13, Improved Banishing, Sovereign Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Armor Piercing 20%, Doublestrike 15%, Red Augment Slot, Orange Augment Slot (Crit Range of 17-20)




Gonna be greedy and ask that this longsword get 35% Armor piercing which is competitive with Thunderforged Tier 2 (but lacking the on critical damage part that Thunderforged would still maintain)

[Cetus]

Heres the usual concern, a concern that I and others have been communicating each and every time a raid is released.

Will you make all of these items, which look like a job well done actually (this hasn't always been the case - so kudos) just a raid bypass zerg on normal away from being essentially a guarantee to anyone who desires them? Something needs to be done about the difficulty with which these can be acquired. Either through *GASP* tiered loot, neutering bypass timers, or introducing mythic versions only for EE. Or some happy combination of all three. I don't know.

Despite the amazing loot present within abbot, that quest has been sacked for 6 minute runs on normal until all of its rewards have been cheapened by the ease of their acquisition.

[HuneyMunster]

Countenance - Ok as is but would consider making Radiance XI and/or Evocation VI and/or add +3/+4 insightful Cha. (you can loose the augment slot(s) to balance the item if more than 1 of suggested effect is added)

.

This.


We have +4 Insightful Str, Dex, Con, Int and Wis now, but no +4 Insightful Cha. What makes Cha the bastard child of the abilities?

[jakeelala]

This.


We have +4 Insightful Str, Dex, Con, Int and Wis now, but no +4 Insightful Cha. What makes Cha the bastard child of the abilities?

great points

[Blackheartox]

Heres the usual concern, a concern that I and others have been communicating each and every time a raid is released.

Will you make all of these items, which look like a job well done actually (this hasn't always been the case - so kudos) just a raid bypass zerg on normal away from being essentially a guarantee to anyone who desires them? Something needs to be done about the difficulty with which these can be acquired. Either through *GASP* tiered loot, neutering bypass timers, or introducing mythic versions only for EE. Or some happy combination of all three. I don't know.

Despite the amazing loot present within abbot, that quest has been sacked for 6 minute runs on normal until all of its rewards have been cheapened by the ease of their acquisition.


They said that all items, even raid have a chance to be mythic.
And on ee you will get a higher chance of getting ee mythic version of said raid items.

In case they all stack /as said alrdy that they will/ and have a variety of random +2 or 4 stacking melle/ranged/spellpower or 2prr/mrr, the raids will last longer then just 2 weeks

[DrawingGuy]

Lol at CHA being the "bastard child"... thought that was WIS. There are no WIS races, which means no +2 base and no double Wis race cores, does not exist in Harper tree, the only stat that can't be traited for damage, and it also lacked +4 items until just now if the items stay the same. With CHA having the most ED options, race + harper tree options, and multiple ways to get CHA to damage, I think it has a lot more to lose than +1 stat to take that crown from WIS. ;)

That said, I do like these items. I do hope things do not creep past this even at level 30. I fully expected them to reach this point, but we'll see...

[Saekee]

Nice changes, thank you for considering forum feedback!

I assume the +3 ki is only on melee attacks, not ranged etc so might be a good idea to include 'melee' in text.

The Longsword--is its crit range due to a Keen attribute or is it really that expanded? It is nice to see it reinvigorate my favorite build. Will it get the 5W treatment? Will it get the melee power boost as well like many new named raid items?

[Blackheartox]

Oh i think googles need greater reinforced fists as well.
Why?
Just because..

[moo_cow]

Am I alone in thinking that the goggles are too nice? Also umd +7 seems a tad high IMO. But good job on the loots.

[Blackheartox]

Am I alone in thinking that the goggles are too nice? Also umd +7 seems a tad high IMO. But good job on the loots.

No you arent alone heh

[Vellrad]

***?
+8 stat on lvl13 items?
U stoned?

[moo_cow]

No you arent alone heh

Didn't even realize they had stun +15.. These are so op. They need to be toned back to +12.

I guess I can drop wis down to 8 on my monk and still have a 76 stun dc....

[Xerio]

***?
+8 stat on lvl13 items?
U stoned?

it's a typo, they're +6

[Drwaz99]

***?
+8 stat on lvl13 items?
U stoned?

No but are you?


Heroic U27 items that had +5 bonuses to individual saves have been bumped to +8


Heroic U27 items that had +5 to Ability Scores have been bumped to +6

[Standal]

I'd like all of these things more if there was a reason to want them. Why do I want ML28 loot at this point? Just like with TF tier 3 and MOD items, these items should be ML26. ML27 max.

[slarden]

Charisma, evoc DC, and Vertigo would work nicely for a bard. Radiance in the mix makes it good for clerics and FvS as well. The cha being ignored, it's solid for druids as well. Also, radiance, vertigo, charisma all would work excellently for an Enlightened Spirit warlock. It could also be used by a paladin, with the Evoc DC boosting ED powers.

Really awesome for a warlock too.

[Vellrad]

No but are you?

ah ok.

[Gralhota]

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/469/19743373372_4fd9bb7e10_o.jpg



Now it is clear that Wizards are not welcome in this game.

1 year ago I thought the deteriorating condition of the Wizards was there because bad design decisions.

In the last 2 months especially with the vast majority of wizards complaining and making suggestions about our situation nothing is resolved, even it seems that something was heard.

The game design is already a joke in bad taste for Wizards and the launch of a new pack what we receive?

DCs Insane while melee without trade off and effortlessly kill one mob at the same time or even faster than a wizard debuffing and casting.

Almost any item for Wizards and look at this new **** that make me: INT +12 (ok), USELEES Spell Resistance, USELEES lesser displacement, USELEES acid and cold resistance and USELEES teleport!


I'm already sick of seeing melees easily owned this game and still receive various items with wizard skills making them even while OP Wizards are increasingly useless and dull.

For a Wizard need an item with skills he already has?

I think take away me for 3-6 months this game again, no one wants to read this forum.

There are times we do not play and even to accompany this forum hoping that problems are solved has been a torture for every update is clear that Wizards are hated.

BTW

Coutenance: Perfect item for CHA users AKA WARLOCK.


Obviously my post will be ignored on the grounds that I am not offensive and I provide constructive criticism.

Offense is being done with Wizards.

WIZARD Traditional requires ****** grind + ****** trade offs + retards spells nerfs.

Okay ... forget DC and try EK tree? forget DEVs decided to troll this tree.

[nibel]

From the previous thread:


We tried to do that with the end reward list items in Wheloon and the Storm Horns; those items had one affix that was much higher than other versions of that affix at-level.

Players pretty universally claimed to hate them while continuing use them as the standard of balance for all future loot (i.e. "I can get STR +8 at level 15 (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Skirmisher%27s_Gloves_(Level_15)), it should be +8 on ALL ML15 items").

We're not likely to do that again anytime soon.

What if instead of "common effect, higher bonus" it is... unique. Torc is still a great item to have while running heroics on any life that uses SP for anything (even if your only use is KtA). Same for Madstone Boots, Ooze greensteel weapons, etc.

That is something that sincerely, I miss more than "better stats". When you create a new effect new, you put it on two or three pieces of loot so it is no longer unique. For instance, I love the Linguistic effect.

[Iriale]

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/469/19743373372_4fd9bb7e10_o.jpg
Devs: Better, thank you for listen our concerns (some, at least). An item with enhanced ki! We don't have none since the lv 22 outfit.

But but but… the belt is plain bad. Seriously, do you hate wizards? It's awesome how this team of designers systematically penalizes the class. Is there any chance that the item be redesigned into something useful? The only bonus ok here is int +12. No insightful int and cha in any item? Why this discrimination?

I had removed all +12 stat (str too!) bonus; We have received good items with +11 bonus too little time ago to render them obsolete. In change I had added +4 insightful bonus (we have missed a lot of insightful stats), and I would use other effects. Increase the numbers by one unit is not fun. There are so many things that you could give us...

I love Dissolution.

Change resonation, please, give it more traditional defensive stats (sheltering, maybe +con) The truth, I would have preferred a crafting system as greensteel instead of this, because this creates many conflicts with previous loot, and makes me wonder why I wasted time farming loot. At least, give us new augments, to fill gaps.

With the raid gloves we lose the Magical efficiency from necro 4 gloves and there are no good replacements either. Any chance of getting magical efficiency elsewhere, eg a new goggles or in the belt? Perhaps in combination with spell penetration? This new cloak is good, but it seems too specific for certain builds.

And devs, I repeat, give us Metamagic efficiency, please. We need to improve mana efficiency in epics desperately. And potency, please, give us a decent item with potency…

[maddong]

I think mythic +2 prr bonuses are a joke.

I think you are giving too much in these new items for grinding EN.

Tone down the free item stats on the last batch and move the power creep into the mythics.

[Cetus]

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/469/19743373372_4fd9bb7e10_o.jpg

Ok lets see here:

Belt of Braided Beards: The +12 int is really the only attractive feature out of the affixes here. I don't see the point of having the resistances - this is just filler garbage given that we have draconic gems to slot or dumathions. The spell resistance I also question, but I guess why not as a little added bonus. The meat of this item is really 1 affix = Int 12. I don't care about a teleport clicky at LEVEL 28. Change this to some unique clicky - like tenser's.

Suggestion: Scrap the resistances and lesser displacement (this ability is given a lot at this point), add arcane aug IX for the intel casters, maybe improved deception for the rogue type. Done.

Countenance: Ehh...I don't know. Again, the Cha +12 is a MAJOR draw for sorcs, warlocks, some bards. I don't see how radiance lore X accomplishes anything for this items demo. I suspect that the DC's on these items are intentionally held a point below that which TF offers - which is fine. But, the radiance lore X should be replaced with something - maybe enhanced spellpower +15 that would benefit more classes. Especially since it has a mere yellow slot.

Dissolution: This is kinda badass for acid users. No value to me personally, but to those who use acid - definitely.

Strange Tidings: Solid ring, I like that there's a percentage attached to deception now. What's improved deception? Leave this as is, I think it's perfect.

Visions of Precision: Ok, I think this is borderline OP. This is a no brainer for any wisdom toon. Going with 12/4 on a stat on the same item just makes every other stat user really jealous, because the other stats don't have this kind of item. If that's what you want to do, then drop the dazing and the enhanced ki. Otherwise, drop the +4 and call it a day, or reduce the +4 to a +3 and drop one of the other affixes.

I think this ones a tad too powerful as is.

All in all, great job devs! I'm curious to see how the mythic versions work together - do their melee/whatever power bonuses all stack with one another?

[slarden]

Visions of Precision: Ok, I think this is borderline OP. This is a no brainer for any wisdom toon. Going with 12/4 on a stat on the same item just makes every other stat user really jealous, because the other stats don't have this kind of item. If that's what you want to do, then drop the dazing and the enhanced ki. Otherwise, drop the +4 and call it a day, or reduce the +4 to a +3 and drop one of the other affixes.

I think this ones a tad too powerful as is.



I think the devs fell for the arguments on the warlock threads about how bad of shape wisdom DC builds are. They wanted to argue that a cleric enchanter was behind a warlock enchanter which of course is true, but who the hell plays a cleric enchanter.... almost all wisdom builds go evocation.

Wisdom evokers already have top notch DCs and they have great synergy with evocation augmentation and diadem to boot which gives them much better DCs than almost all other builds. This wasn't needed, but the argument about poor clerics and their bad enchantment DCs apparently persuaded the devs and they ignored the +3 evocation DC from sorc past lifes and the +2 extra evocation DC twistable from draconic. There is also quality wisdom +2 bonus available on another item I believe.

This means my druid DC earthquake will be around 90 which ironically sounds too low for eShavarath lol.

So I guess they can make it 15 wisdom and it wouldn't matter - nobody is going to land spells in eShavarath anyhow.

The game will be even more about PRR, MRR and weapon DPS in U27 than it was before U27 which is hard to imagine.

[cru121]

Heroic U27 items that had +5 bonuses to individual saves have been bumped to +8
Heroic U27 items that had +5 to Ability Scores have been bumped to +6
The U27 Buckler is no longer a Small Shield
We're planning on making the Greataxe's crit multiplier x4.
We're planning on making all of the weapons in this pack either Cold Iron or Flametouched Iron.



Heroic items feedback. Changes are good. Some comments.

Armbands of the Silenced Ones (Bracers): Dexterity +6, Dodge +5%, Seeker IV, Reflex Save +8, Blue Augment Slot
might be a bit too strong. I'd remove either dodge or seeker, and make the other +6

Eloquence (Helmet): Bluff +11, Intimidate +11, Good Luck +1, Seeker IV, Green Augment Slot
People who care about skills will probably carry a set of dedicated BtA cannith crafted +13 items. Very weak, even as a swap item. Perhaps bump to +13 to make it save an inventory slot. Perhaps add Linguistics.

Pendant of Quiet Movements (Necklace): Dusk, Dodge +5%, Will Save +8, Seeker IV, Yellow Augment Slot
Still weak. Could be Blurry. Epic version is also weak. This could use more work...

Rod of Mythant (Club): Spellcasting Implement +15, +5 Enhancement Bonus, Evocation Focus I, Kinetic Lore IV, Impulse +66, Wizardry III, Orange Augment Slot
This would be nice at ML10 (compare to Scepter of Healing, fun item!). At ML13 it simply ages too quickly. Move Impulse to Red slot. Club is boring, change to Light Hammer (swashbucklable, morninglord racial weapon, dwarf weapon). Remove either Evo focus or Wizardry; increase the remaining enchantment to focus +2 / wizardry 7. Or move Wizardry to Orange slot. Con to hit/damage would make it interesting for eldritch aura warlocks.

Shield of Tireless Aid (Large Shield): Spellcasting Implement +15, +5 Enhancement Bonus, Devotion +66, Healing Amplification: +20 Exceptional Bonus, Healers Bounty, Yellow Augment Slot
This is a nice shield. It would age slower if Devotion was in a red slot. For variety, consider different type of Healing Amplification - it's too similar to Wall of Wood at ML15. Competence bonus is rare in heroics (only greensteel tier 3 weapons).

The Band Immaterial (Ring): Illusion Focus I, Enchantment Focus I, Blue Augment Slot, Green Augment Slot
Yeah, this is bad. I mean, pretty strong item for Harbor lvl 2 elites, and that's it. Compare to Greater Cunning Trinket (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Greater_Cunning_Trinket)

Token of the Proven (Trinket): Invisibility Guard, Fortification 100%, Dusk, Blue Augment Slot, Feather Fall
clicky still doesnt work

[UurlockYgmeov]

and epic items are nice - but these are at cap - so I won't be using them (or even seeking to get them) until the cap goes to 30.

so here are some heroic items screen shots:

http://i.imgur.com/J82nosI.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/mAuyTBT.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XaFyuis.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rVSCV5o.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/U0Ci4Ra.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zfeZ1Yi.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/xfPt2wM.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/OZwVFO8.jpg

I like them. These items Uurlock will look for... :D

[oradafu]

As usual, the Devs haven't learned the basics when it comes to a melee staff, since just plug and play doesn't work for this weapon. How many times does it need to be repeated that all named melee staves need some basic customization or else the staff becomes worthless right out of the gate?

First of all, melee staves need extra hardness and durability. Acrobats don't have Item Defense, as it has been pointed out repeatedly. Also pointed out repeatedly is that staves wear down quickly because most staff attacks aren't single target and staves get lots of glancing blows. Add in high HP, DR and Fort mobs, the staves are butter if they have less than 18 hardness and 240 durability. Staves will break, especially against skeletons and constructs.

Second, the base damage die at 1d6 has always been horrible. Take a look at the staves that players say are good and you will see that they have a base die damage of 1d8 or higher:
* Theurgic Stave's 2d4
* Breeze 1d10
* (Epic) Bone Crusher 1d10
* Stout Oak Walking Stick 2d6
* Sireth 1d10

Third, the crits on melee staves need to be tweaked. A 20/x2 crit range is not good on a melee staff. At a minimum, the crit range or crit multiplier needs to be expanded, if not both.

So please take note of this, since it keeps being repeated and ignored. Melee staves need to have much better hardness and durability, since Item Defense was not added to the Monk and Rogue Enhancement trees. The base damage die needs to always be better than 1d6. The crit range and/or crit multiplier needs to be better than the standard 20/2x. If you do these things, you will make a decent melee staff. If you ignore any of these (or all of them, in the case of the Light Unending), then you end up wasting everyone's time and an item that will not be used by anyone.

[Violith]

Yea, a few of my toons would like those goggles, my drunk especially, however. Last it was mentioned. Dazing and vertigo both added to trip DC, (Their effects used to be just reversed, but vertigo was since fixed, and I believe in u25.2 a dev mentioned that dazing wasnt fixed yet) So, now that new named items are getting the effect is it infact fixed for u27 on all items?

[Alternative]

I get the impression that the bracers Dissolution were designed by a ddo player, corrosion, acid lore, and conjuration focus since all acid spells are that school makes it a very coherent item, also GOO pact warlocks will love it for tentacles.

Now the cloak Countenance looks as if it was thrown into a random generator, charisma 12 on a cloak is great, but the rest of the effects just don't work with one another. Radiance lore, but no actual radiance spell power, so better use lantern ring that has both. There is only one light spell that allows an evocation based (or any) save and the only cha caster that has access to it is a sorcerer. There are also no evocation or light spells that benefit from spell penetration. My suggestion is to replace that radiance lore with 3 insight cha. Or both radiance lore and spell penetration with 4 insight cha.

Also regarding the belt I would agree with already posted criticism, but I stopped playing a DC wiz pretty much after that 4 int light armor insult. It's okayish for harper mechs I suppose.

[raclaw]

We're planning on making all of the weapons in this pack either Cold Iron or Flametouched Iron.
We're planning on having a Longsword in the Raid, looking something like this:

+13, Improved Banishing, Sovereign Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Armor Piercing 20%, Doublestrike 15%, Red Augment Slot, Orange Augment Slot (Crit Range of 17-20)

[/LIST]

I wish we had a kopesh... longsword looks much better than kopesh... :(

[Ayseifn]

I wish we had a kopesh... longsword looks much better than kopesh... :(

Yeah, the khopesh is still horrible to the point I doubt anyone would use it. I get that it's not raid loot but what is the point of adding something in that no one will use?

Reminds me of the heavy pick from last update, some of us have been waiting for a solid weapon of a certain type for a very long time but all we get is garbage.

[cyfrak]

I only wish to see spell focus DC items be +6 instead of +5.

[Skavenaps]

i'm normally not that negative with devs work, but sorry this is terrible. Why all this gear is extremely powerful and not balanced? So next raid in only god knows when will just be more stuff even more OP ? And the next so? Is that what ddo became? a WoW when a new patch hits all old equip is trash? Do you really see normal this goggles? for real? 16 Wis in 1 item plus stunning plus +3 ki...

Equip don't need to be better each update, just different. Same bonus (not better) in different slots with a crafting system to fill some blanks (like greensteel was). Instead of +12 cha on cloak put a +3 Cha ins and now is on 3 slots (googles, hat, cloak). You can also add some unique bonus on the mix (like torc had) on a slot with lot of competition. Hell, red scales and eSoS keep von6 alive from years. YEARS. Torc and the caster sword keep alive eSands. What is keeping alive Cannith raids? or FoT raid? Or even Citw?

You are just killing all raids which is bad for you (as you never will be able to produce new content before peeps get bored and claim theres is nothing to do at cap) and is bad for us (cause in 2 weeks raid will be over farmed and that's it back to TR,eTR or alts). Please, this is important you understand. You can't keep doing this. Keep killing content and soon ther will be nothing to do, for real.

look at all the comments in this thread.

1-I want +6dc instead of 5.
2-I want +12 instead of +11.
3-Put +4 ins cha on the cloak.

That is all we want for an update? Shame. I want different items! Not better not worst, just different.

A teleport clickie? Cool, you now killed the only part of restless isle that was not dead. The head with the teleport was the ONLY reason to run it. Yeah.. with today power creep you can scroll a tp anyway. But thats not the point. it was special.

What we need is a nerf patch to ground all the stuff at once.

Sorry for the long post.. but im sad and angry and had to vent this out.

[Wizza]

I really like these new items but I have some concerns:

The belt: the main feature is the Int +12. Everything else is..meh. Needs something more to be attractive.
The cloak: I don't get why there is Radiance at all on this item. I don't think it fits. Replace it with something else. Maybe Insightful Evocation +1/2?

Bracers, ring and goggles are fine.

[SirValentine]

how many updates untill DDO will be full jRPG? we will have hundreads of thousands HP, millions damage, mobs will have billions HP and we will handle swords three times bigger than us? the power creep turned to power sprint.
+12 ability items, +6 tomes in constant sale. I bet we will have some temporary offers of +7 tomes in next few months.
instead of making any new gear OP and old gear irrelevant and outdated, make new stuff with old effects but with new combinations. also some sets would be great.

I expected +12 ability items...but not until level cap went to 30. So are we going to see +13 (or higher) when that level cap raise happens?

[LightBear]

I expected +12 ability items...but not until level cap went to 30. So are we going to see +13 (or higher) when that level cap raise happens?

Isn't the quest itself level 30? And aren't these are named items, so appropriate to have better stats at lower levels then normal items?

[SirValentine]

...the +3 evocation DC from sorc past lifes and the +2 extra evocation DC twistable from draconic.


Yes, Evoc & Conj schools do have those advantages, regardless of class or casting stat.



Wisdom evokers already have top notch DCs and they have great synergy with evocation augmentation and diadem to boot which gives them much better DCs than almost all other builds.


"much better DCs"? Compared to Int or Cha evokers? Or is an actual fair same-school comparison the asterisk in "almost all"?

[LightBear]

I wish we had a kopesh... longsword looks much better than kopesh... :(

I'd love to run around wielding two of those blades on a monk hybrid.

[Dalsheel]

It looks like these new items will completely invalidate any previous gear... yet again.

Another complete gear overhaul. Which is not a bad thing in itself, but I would prefer it if we had more options instead of new "must-haves"

[LightBear]

It looks like these new items will completely invalidate any previous gear... yet again.

Another complete gear overhaul. Which is not a bad thing in itself, but I would prefer it if we had more options instead of new "must-haves"

It put me in bias as to what to pick on my 20th completion of MoD, the new trinket really is nice but so is that "old" one.
Epic Litany of the Dead (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Litany_of_the_Dead) - Trinket (http://ddowiki.com/page/Trinket), Exclusive (http://ddowiki.com/page/Exclusive)
Turn the Page (http://ddowiki.com/page/Turn_the_Page), Litany of the Dead II - Ability Bonus (http://ddowiki.com/page/Litany_of_the_Dead_II_-_Ability_Bonus), Taint of Evil (http://ddowiki.com/page/Taint_of_Evil), Litany of the Dead II - Combat Bonus (http://ddowiki.com/page/Litany_of_the_Dead_II_-_Combat_Bonus), Light of Dawn (http://ddowiki.com/page/Light_of_Dawn) Upgradeable - Primary Augment (Yellow Augment Slot (http://ddowiki.com/page/Augment_Slot) or Blue Augment Slot (http://ddowiki.com/page/Augment_Slot)), Upgradeable - Secondary Augment (Green Augment Slot (http://ddowiki.com/page/Augment_Slot))
vs
Token of the Proven (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Token_of_the_Proven_%28level_28%29) (Trinket): Invisibility Guard (http://ddowiki.com/page/Invisibility_Guard), Fortification 150% (http://ddowiki.com/page/Fortification), Lesser Displacement (http://ddowiki.com/page/Lesser_Displacement), Insightful Fortitude Save +2 (http://ddowiki.com/page/Fortitude_Save), Green Augment Slot (http://ddowiki.com/page/Augment_Slot), Feather Fall (http://ddowiki.com/page/Feather_Fall)

[Dalsheel]

It put me in bias as to what to pick on my 20th completion of MoD, the new trinket really is nice but so is that "old" one.

Litany is the exception I guess. On all my toons I use heroic Litany from 13-27 and eLitany on 28.

In general, with the exception of a small list of unique items -like litany, the new items overshadow all the previous ones.

[Vanhooger]

I get the impression that the bracers Dissolution were designed by a ddo player, corrosion, acid lore, and conjuration focus since all acid spells are that school makes it a very coherent item, also GOO pact warlocks will love it for tentacles.

Now the cloak Countenance looks as if it was thrown into a random generator, charisma 12 on a cloak is great, but the rest of the effects just don't work with one another. Radiance lore, but no actual radiance spell power, so better use lantern ring that has both. There is only one light spell that allows an evocation based (or any) save and the only cha caster that has access to it is a sorcerer. There are also no evocation or light spells that benefit from spell penetration. My suggestion is to replace that radiance lore with 3 insight cha. Or both radiance lore and spell penetration with 4 insight cha.

Also regarding the belt I would agree with already posted criticism, but I stopped playing a DC wiz pretty much after that 4 int light armor insult. It's okayish for harper mechs I suppose.

The cloak it will fit perfectly my DC warlock for spell pen & radiance lore. Hope they leave it as it is.

[noinfo]

i'm normally not that negative with devs work, but sorry this is terrible. Why all this gear is extremely powerful and not balanced? So next raid in only god knows when will just be more stuff even more OP ? And the next so? Is that what ddo became? a WoW when a new patch hits all old equip is trash? Do you really see normal this goggles? for real? 16 Wis in 1 item plus stunning plus +3 ki...

Equip don't need to be better each update, just different. Same bonus (not better) in different slots with a crafting system to fill some blanks (like greensteel was). Instead of +12 cha on cloak put a +3 Cha ins and now is on 3 slots (googles, hat, cloak). You can also add some unique bonus on the mix (like torc had) on a slot with lot of competition. Hell, red scales and eSoS keep von6 alive from years. YEARS. Torc and the caster sword keep alive eSands. What is keeping alive Cannith raids? or FoT raid? Or even Citw?

You are just killing all raids which is bad for you (as you never will be able to produce new content before peeps get bored and claim theres is nothing to do at cap) and is bad for us (cause in 2 weeks raid will be over farmed and that's it back to TR,eTR or alts). Please, this is important you understand. You can't keep doing this. Keep killing content and soon ther will be nothing to do, for real.

look at all the comments in this thread.

1-I want +6dc instead of 5.
2-I want +12 instead of +11.
3-Put +4 ins cha on the cloak.

That is all we want for an update? Shame. I want different items! Not better not worst, just different.

A teleport clickie? Cool, you now killed the only part of restless isle that was not dead. The head with the teleport was the ONLY reason to run it. Yeah.. with today power creep you can scroll a tp anyway. But thats not the point. it was special.

What we need is a nerf patch to ground all the stuff at once.

Sorry for the long post.. but im sad and angry and had to vent this out.

You are concerned over a teleport clicked on a level 28 item, when every man and his dog can umd a teleport scroll? The clickie is not epic! If you think that being able to umd at that level is power creep well that is just progression.

+4 insight power creep? not particulary since +4 insight items were introduced a while ago, but not for all stats, a bit of variety on where they fall would be nice. I would have preferred to keep +11 stat items the max and be consistent with MOD.
The same is true for the spell dc items. +6 on a tier 2 item, From the raid +6 is reasonable, and considering how bad off dc casters are atm, it wouldn't hurt at all.

I do agree with some unique bonuses would be good and separates raid loot.

[Skavenaps]

You are concerned over a teleport clicked on a level 28 item, when every man and his dog can umd a teleport scroll? The clickie is not epic! If you think that being able to umd at that level is power creep well that is just progression.

+4 insight power creep? not particulary since +4 insight items were introduced a while ago, but not for all stats, a bit of variety on where they fall would be nice. I would have preferred to keep +11 stat items the max and be consistent with MOD.
The same is true for the spell dc items. +6 on a tier 2 item, From the raid +6 is reasonable, and considering how bad off dc casters are atm, it wouldn't hurt at all.

I do agree with some unique bonuses would be good and separates raid loot.

no, i'm not concerned for tp clickie.

I'm concerned because the only thing that changed from the first pass of items vs that second one is that loot now is OP. Thats it. And now.. magic! all feedback is good (or even some peeps are claiming to make it MORE good with more stat). and that is plain sad.

Are this new items inspired? No. They have something special behind been OP? No.

So why devs don't give us a stick with +100 to all and lets call it? Who cares if is OP or not. Or even "fun" or even balanced? Next raid the new stick with +101 to all will come and all will be happy (at least till the 20 runs are done, then everybody and his mother will forget this raid).

[slarden]

Yes, Evoc & Conj schools do have those advantages, regardless of class or casting stat.

"much better DCs"? Compared to Int or Cha evokers? Or is an actual fair same-school comparison the asterisk in "almost all"?

First of all I've played casting druids, cleric and favored soul for extended periods on one of my main characters in the past 2 years so I am very familiar with the builds, pros, cons.

Evocation and Conjuration are higher than other schools by 5 yes. EA is higher than other destinies by 3-4. I would have to do the math but I would think a wisdom builds beats an int build easily since the 3 DC from EA makes up for anything you would get from race/harper before the extra gear bonuses.

I haven't really seen sorcs in EA except for etr so yeah I think wisdom in EA beats sorc in draconic.

Bards in EA have a higher DC but casting bards don't have much in the way of DPS outside epic destinies which is available to all builds so it hardly matters. I played one on my main as a party cc: support character, but as I pointed in out in my post the build it's built for a party - it can solo some content - but it's built for a party. It suffers from the same problem as all casting builds when it comes to sustainable DPS. They also don't have blade barrier to power up evocation augmentation, scourge and just reward. They don't have the fire and light SLAs to power up empyrean magic. Once you factor in epic deific diadem, evocation augmentation and the new gear - wisdom evokers in EA end up at the very top of the heap for DC casting and they were always right there at the top anyhow. My druid will have an evocation DC of about 90 (in sig). Same with the divine, and while the debuffs aren't 100% guaranteed, evocation augmentation works really well for clerics, favored souls and druids. The only other build that can use augmentation from magister effectively is my wizard necromancer due to 2 available auras.

Nobody but cleric has the broken sunburst SLA that blinds all the living mobs and kills undead without saves. That's hugely overpowered and since the ability isn't subject to save at all at the moment will work and be effective in Shavarath unlike most DC casting.

I think Turbine needs to look at DC casting as a whole because they all suffer from the same problem. Favored souls and clerics with 3 fvs levels are in good shape compared to other DC casters with DPS - or people just don't know how to play them. Light spamming builds are very powerful right now with at least 3 fvs levels so you can combine the power of scourge, just reward, shield of condemnation, empyrean magic, exalted angel, past life sun elf, etc. That's a significant DPS boost. You can go light spamming and max DC both.

I am not saying clerics are anywhere near a paladin or barbarian - they aren't. But neither is a PM or other DC casters. In my opinion my strongest DC caster at the moment is druid - not an int or cha based DC caster.

[slarden]

The cloak it will fit perfectly my DC warlock for spell pen & radiance lore. Hope they leave it as it is.

Same - it will work for anyone that uses light spellpower and doesn't have tier 3 thunderforged radiance lore.

[pjw]

Just checking: this is a raid without any kind of crafting, just augment slots, is that right?

If so, can we get craftable augments from it? Lore augments? Deadly? Dodge etc etc.

Does the raid drop comms? Or anything else that fits into the existing generic raid crafting systems?

[Sirianstar]

Belt of Braided Beards: the name is awesome, just saying. a belt made from sage's beards.
crafting components: 7 sages to be beard shaved ;)
Apart that, +12 Int very good, finally. everything else is a little disappointing:
spell resist 35 on epics meh, too low to be of any value at lvl 28, "maybe" it could be useful
at 20.
lesser displacement: the only very good shiny, good to have another source in game.
The resists: totally useless on epics, even more at 28. Absorption is the only thing that matters
as ship buffs, spell buffs, and destiny buffs just make them obsolete at lvl 20 already (or earlier).
Personally i'd take out the resists and the spell resist altogether,
insightful int+3 would be very good for any build using Int.
Right now seems a belt more focused toward non spellcasting INT users, so maybe the purpose
is not to be a slot for spellcasters. Tho a +3 Ins Int would fit perfectly i think to every
harper or be helpful for wizards too, giving to it added value.
But i'd put it as a very rare drop, considering how rare are +3 ins item.


Strange Tidings: this is a very good item, only thing i'd change is diversion, i'd apply it to ranged too, and would be a flawless item.

Epic Bleeding Edge: i seem to understand that this khopesh is used by the evil forces and not by the archons,
so maybe the lack of material type is due to that? still it seems totally underpowered at level, not worth even mentioning
using it. Compared to the longsword seems like a toy weapon just for collection. Limbchopper seems good, but the rest
isn't imho contributing so much for the dps needed.

I'd like to mention that 3 shields in this expansion have asf 0%, which is a very nice add-on,
most of all the petrification immunity item, which is not exactly statted for casters, but the immunity i think it's well
worth using it, on MoD.

[Xerio]

Lack of light spell power and negative spell power item from a pack that involves demons and celestials warring is still a bummer. Fire spell power would make sense here too.

[Blackheartox]

Just checking: this is a raid without any kind of crafting, just augment slots, is that right?

If so, can we get craftable augments from it? Lore augments? Deadly? Dodge etc etc.

Does the raid drop comms? Or anything else that fits into the existing generic raid crafting systems?

I asked sev and devs in devchat about that.
They confirmed we are getting no new augments with the new content.

They didnt confirm if we will get new ones in new mysterious fragments rewards tho, but high chance answer is as well no for that

[Steelstar]

Hey, all! Thanks again for the feedback so far. Let's answer some questions!


Heya Steel, the Greataxe's Superior Force Burst Effect doesnt seem to be Showing up. Has this been fixed?
Yes! It's busted in the current Lamannia, but we've got it fixed internally.



Without screenshots or a written list of the loot, you literally have to have lammania open side-by-side with the thread to interpret the discussion.
The best feedback we get is usually from people logging in and trying the loot for themselves, which happens a lot less when we provide a list. That said, we know it's useful to see it in the thread, and we don't mind if other players post it here (which you all have been great about doing so far).



A couple of the old items have also been changed (in addition to the above):
-Epic Armbands of the Silent Ones now has Insightful Dex 3 instead of Seeker
-Sheltering now has Constitution 12 in addition to previous effects

Correct! Sorry we missed that in the Lamannia notes.


wondering what the reasons for leaving +12 stun and speed 15 off the boots are.

i get that +12 stun maybe doesnt fit thematically, but comparing just the hooks to innocents, innocents are better.

For tripping, the Greaves will get you a better DC than the Epic Boots of the Innocent. They are boots specifically meant for Trip DCs. If you use all three Tactics feats frequently, EBotI might still be better, but your Trip DCs will be worse. As for the lack of Speed 15, what would you say should be removed to add it?



Belt of Braided Beards - Spell Resistance (35) is pretty useless at this level (unless it's stacking);
The SR 35 doesn't stack (no Spell Resistance does); it's mostly for flavor on a Bearded Devil themed item (hence why that item's got more effects than most others in this pack). Much like the Feather Fall clicky, we could remove it if people don't like it, but we're not likely to replace it with anything. That said, we've heard some feedback that people aren't super-happy with this item in general, we'll be taking a look at it today.



Any news on the promised new augments?

I don't recall promising new Augments. (There's a chance we mentioned some somewhere, perhaps. Feel free to prove me wrong! I'm rather sure we didn't promise any, though.)

In either case - There are no new Augments in U27.



That [the greataxe] looks interesting, great threat range - whats the base damage?
1.5[1d12] for Heroic, 5[1d12] for Epic.


Heres the usual concern, a concern that I and others have been communicating each and every time a raid is released.

Will you make all of these items, which look like a job well done actually (this hasn't always been the case - so kudos) just a raid bypass zerg on normal away from being essentially a guarantee to anyone who desires them? Something needs to be done about the difficulty with which these can be acquired. Either through *GASP* tiered loot, neutering bypass timers, or introducing mythic versions only for EE. Or some happy combination of all three. I don't know.

Despite the amazing loot present within abbot, that quest has been sacked for 6 minute runs on normal until all of its rewards have been cheapened by the ease of their acquisition.

Mythic Bonuses are available on all of the loot in the Raid. There are two tiers of Mythic that can appear (+1/+2 and +3/+4, depending on the item), and Mythics in different slots always stack. Mythics cannot appear in the 20th List, and will be extremely hard to get (especially the higher tier) outside of Epic Elite. The bonuses may seem small, but stacking them in a variety of slots on Raid gear adds up. Not saying this is the be-all-end-all solution to the concerns about running at difficulty, it's just one piece of that puzzle.


I'd like all of these things more if there was a reason to want them. Why do I want ML28 loot at this point?
Level 30 is coming.


Now it is clear that Wizards are not welcome in this game.
I can't quote most of your post for community guidelines reasons, but I'll respond to the salient points:

We don't hate Wizards. We don't hate any class. Claiming otherwise when trying to provide feedback to us is non-constructive, and hurts your argument.
It's clear you wanted to provide constructive criticism (which is good!) but this isn't that. To reframe in a constructive and non-rule-violating way, what you seem to be saying is:

You are frustrated because Wizards have been behind compared to other classes for some time now.
You aren't happy with the Belt of Braided Beards because it has INT, but a lot of its other features are redundant with Wizard class features.
You would like to see it become a better WIZ item, especially since the other casting classes get decent items in this Raid.


Point taken!



So please take note of this, since it keeps being repeated and ignored. Melee staves need to have much better hardness and durability, since Item Defense was not added to the Monk and Rogue Enhancement trees. The base damage die needs to always be better than 1d6. The crit range and/or crit multiplier needs to be better than the standard 20/2x. If you do these things, you will make a decent melee staff. If you ignore any of these (or all of them, in the case of the Light Unending), then you end up wasting everyone's time and an item that will not be used by anyone.
We'll up the durability/hardness, and take a look at the other things here.


Yea, a few of my toons would like those goggles, my drunk especially, however. Last it was mentioned. Dazing and vertigo both added to trip DC, (Their effects used to be just reversed, but vertigo was since fixed, and I believe in u25.2 a dev mentioned that dazing wasnt fixed yet) So, now that new named items are getting the effect is it infact fixed for u27 on all items?
To the best of my (quick-researching) knowledge, Dazing was fixed around U21. If there ARE problems with Dazing item effects in any form at the moment, please submit a bug report with the specific effect and we'll take a look.

OK! We're still watching this thread, so please keep the good feedback rolling.

-Steel

[Ape_Man]

Level 30 is coming.


I can't quote most of your post for community guidelines reasons, but I'll respond to the salient points:

We don't hate Wizards. We don't hate any class. Claiming otherwise when trying to provide feedback to us is non-constructive, and hurts your argument.
It's clear you wanted to provide constructive criticism (which is good!) but this isn't that. To reframe in a constructive and non-rule-violating way, what you seem to be saying is:

You are frustrated because Wizards have been behind compared to other classes for some time now.
You aren't happy with the Belt of Braided Beards because it has INT, but a lot of its other features are redundant with Wizard class features.
You would like to see it become a better WIZ item, especially since the other casting classes get decent items in this Raid.


Point taken!



-Steel

Steel - let's start with the developer intentions and work backwards.

How effective do you want DC casting to be in this new content? Because as it is now these toons which required an insane amount of work to be made powerful are worthless in this content.

Is that what's intended?

I'm going to assume this is not intended, if this is not intended that either saves need to go down or DCs need to go up. Which of those is easier and causes less destruction to game balance in the long run?

[Steelstar]

Steel - let's start with the developer intentions and work backwards.

How effective do you want DC casting to be in this new content? Because as it is now these toons which required an insane amount of work to be made powerful are worthless in this content.

Is that what's intended?

I'm going to assume this is not intended, if this is not intended that either saves need to go down or DCs need to go up. Which of those is easier and causes less destruction to game balance in the long run?

That's really a discussion for a different thread. The loot for this update contains bonuses to the DCs of all Spells, which either stack with existing bonuses or are higher values than currently exist.

The discussion about DCs on monsters in this particular pack should happen in threads about that content (though I do hope you factor the DC gains from these items into your calculations).

[kmoustakas]

If the axe goes x4 it's gonna be the first two handed weapon in the game that is base x4 correct?

I'm not complaining but... is there a sense of powercreep or is it just me? These look even stronger than necro and epic necro items were just silly strong.

[Vanhooger]

I kinda knew it, will tr barb or paladin for this raid, sadly.

[Wongar]

Is it correct that Ultimatum is a tower shield with no ASF or Armor Check Penalty? Or have they just not been added yet? Or am I just missing them?

[Steelstar]

Is it correct that Ultimatum is a tower shield with no ASF or Armor Check Penalty? Or have they just not been added yet? Or am I just missing them?

It should probably have those. We'll take a look, thanks.

[Ape_Man]

That's really a discussion for a different thread. The loot for this update contains bonuses to the DCs of all Spells, which either stack with existing bonuses or are higher values than currently exist.

The discussion about DCs on monsters in this particular pack should happen in threads about that content (though I do hope you factor the DC gains from these items into your calculations).

/off topic, I know it's a loot thread

Calculations? We can't make any actual calculations without know what the saves are, we don't know what they are because you won't tell us.

We can make observations, these observations tell us that nothing lands.

and there's a potential of 1.5 DC increases from this gear total, which I'm sure would help a whole lot since were about 20 DCs too low to be effective.

/on Topic

I actually like this second round of loot a lot, you guys did a good job here.

[Steve_Howe]

Litany is the exception I guess. On all my toons I use heroic Litany from 13-27 and eLitany on 28.

In general, with the exception of a small list of unique items -like litany, the new items overshadow all the previous ones.

Nope. Gonna keep the Epic Boots of the Innocent because of the Greater Heroism effect.

There are other items that are still better for certain builds than some of these new ones.

[Cetus]

If the axe goes x4 it's gonna be the first two handed weapon in the game that is base x4 correct?

I'm not complaining but... is there a sense of powercreep or is it just me? These look even stronger than necro and epic necro items were just silly strong.

I really don't think this item is power creep at all, I say so for a couple reasons

1. A twf x4 equivalent existed forever - heavy picks, and the last time they shined was when helpless was autocrit. Since then they're generally dumped due to poor threat.

2. This axe has to compete with thunder forged - with a x3 standard multiplier, it will yet again be another vendor trash named item. The x4 adds uniqueness to it, and it may situationally be fun to use without worrying about a substantial dps loss due to not using a thunder forged item. For shavarath, it may actually be a decent option due to fire immunity. This is a good thing in myview.

[Steve_Howe]

If the axe goes x4 it's gonna be the first two handed weapon in the game that is base x4 correct?

I'm not complaining but... is there a sense of powercreep or is it just me? These look even stronger than necro and epic necro items were just silly strong.

Nope. Epic Sword of Shadows originally had a x4 Crit mod and it's crit range was 18-20. It was, however, knocked down to x3 an update or two after it was released. The Crit range stayed the same.

Having a two-hander with just a 20 crit range and a x4 Crit modifier really isn't a big deal

[Failedlegend]

Any chance there's any Con+11 belts in this batch since deathblock makes E-Thoughtful useless to my WizTank and the other +11 Con source (yep there's only 2) is a pretty weak item otherwise.

[Xerio]

http://cdn2.gamefront.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/dead-horse.jpg
any chance of other spell power bonus' on items?

Belt of braided beards suggestions,

Current

+12 int
35 Spell resist
lesser displacement
superior acid resist (+40)
superior cold resist (+40)
blue augment slot
green augment slot


suggested changes

+12 int
+4 insightful int
lesser displacement
+10 insightful MRR
+2 insightful DC or alignment(light) spell power / negative spell power
blue augment slot
green augment slot


Another neat option that comes to mind is immunity to a specific spell, there is armor from the titan raid that makes the wearer immune to lightning bolt.
that was a neat flavor attribute, how about, immunity to symbol of pain?

Are the mythic items going to gain enhanced attributes or just the +2/4 mythic bonus?

[JOTMON]

Belt of Braided Beards: The +12 int is really the only attractive feature out of the affixes here. I don't see the point of having the resistances - this is just filler garbage given that we have draconic gems to slot or dumathions. The spell resistance I also question, but I guess why not as a little added bonus. The meat of this item is really 1 affix = Int 12. I don't care about a teleport clicky at LEVEL 28. Change this to some unique clicky - like tenser's.
Suggestion: Scrap the resistances and lesser displacement (this ability is given a lot at this point), add arcane aug IX for the intel casters, maybe improved deception for the rogue type. Done.


Not a bad item.. Spell resisitance.. sure.. not a make or break bonus..
standing Displacement 25.. like it for a rogue.. not so much for a wiz.. Harper int damage builder..perhaps..
Resists.. meh..
it has 2 augment slots.. so its workable..
Teleport clickie.. better than feather fall...
Some tweaking potential here.




Countenance: Ehh...I don't know. Again, the Cha +12 is a MAJOR draw for sorcs, warlocks, some bards. I don't see how radiance lore X accomplishes anything for this items demo. I suspect that the DC's on these items are intentionally held a point below that which TF offers - which is fine. But, the radiance lore X should be replaced with something - maybe enhanced spellpower +15 that would benefit more classes. Especially since it has a mere yellow slot.


Its not all about sorcs..
2WF Melee Warlock(enlightened spirit) or a Melee FvS could find use for this...





Visions of Precision: Ok, I think this is borderline OP. This is a no brainer for any wisdom toon. Going with 12/4 on a stat on the same item just makes every other stat user really jealous, because the other stats don't have this kind of item. If that's what you want to do, then drop the dazing and the enhanced ki. Otherwise, drop the +4 and call it a day, or reduce the +4 to a +3 and drop one of the other affixes.





yes, borderline no brainer.. and wisdom toons need something like this.
our wisdom toons have been passed over for far too long to not get some love.
Don't screw with this one .. I like it just the way it is... Monks and clerics can finally rejoice..

[Portalcat]

Mythic Bonuses are available on all of the loot in the Raid. There are two tiers of Mythic that can appear (+1/+2 and +3/+4, depending on the item), and Mythics in different slots always stack. Mythics cannot appear in the 20th List, and will be extremely hard to get (especially the higher tier) outside of Epic Elite. The bonuses may seem small, but stacking them in a variety of slots on Raid gear adds up. Not saying this is the be-all-end-all solution to the concerns about running at difficulty, it's just one piece of that puzzle.

This is a great idea. Any chance of implementing it in older endgame content and raids?

I'd certainly run more EE Deathwyrms if I could get a better version of Dumathoin's Bracers and more MoDs if I could get better versions of several items.




(though I do hope you factor the DC gains from these items into your calculations).

The problem is that we're talking about a gain of 1-2 DC for Necromancy and 3-4 for Enchantment DC against a jump in the needed DCs of 1-2 dozen. If this loot were sufficient to make the math work again, there wouldn't be a need for other threads.

[BankCoffer]

Mythic Bonuses are available on all of the loot in the Raid. There are two tiers of Mythic that can appear (+1/+2 and +3/+4, depending on the item), and Mythics in different slots always stack. Mythics cannot appear in the 20th List, and will be extremely hard to get (especially the higher tier) outside of Epic Elite. The bonuses may seem small, but stacking them in a variety of slots on Raid gear adds up. Not saying this is the be-all-end-all solution to the concerns about running at difficulty, it's just one piece of that puzzle.


Level 30 is coming.
-Steel

Have you guys considered adding class/enhancement prestige specific items to new content? Like, consider the old abbot loot and old tower of despair items. Something very niche like that. And stop with the Illusion items. No one uses that school, ever. DDO is very limited with those spells anyway. Unless one of the devs personally dislikes how few spells ddo has compared to DnD and wants to right that wrong, then by all means continue with the Illusion items! I feel niche items as such would provide enough of a farm for players to deck out their alts or specific builds while not going down the path of +15 stat item, quality bonus, determination bonus, profane bonus, insightful bonus, exceptional bonus, sacred bonus, new bonus, old bonus, big bonus, little bonus.

[Cetus]

Its not all about sorcs..
2WF Melee Warlock(enlightened spirit) or a Melee FvS could find use for this...

What? Its not, that's why I mentioned bards and warlocks in the same sentence. Why are you insinuating that I'm only talking about sorcs here.

All three of the classes I mentioned can use a generic spellpower bonus than a useless affix like radiance.




yes, borderline no brainer.. and wisdom toons need something like this.
our wisdom toons have been passed over for far too long to not get some love.
Don't screw with this one .. I like it just the way it is... Monks and clerics can finally rejoice..

I'll leave it alone, I don't mind wisdom folks having this - but it isn't a secret that going with 12/4 on a stat on a single item (goggles especially) is pretty **** powerful.

[Cetus]

Mythic Bonuses are available on all of the loot in the Raid. There are two tiers of Mythic that can appear (+1/+2 and +3/+4, depending on the item), and Mythics in different slots always stack. Mythics cannot appear in the 20th List, and will be extremely hard to get (especially the higher tier) outside of Epic Elite. The bonuses may seem small, but stacking them in a variety of slots on Raid gear adds up. Not saying this is the be-all-end-all solution to the concerns about running at difficulty, it's just one piece of that puzzle.


This is perfect - thank you.

[Infiltraitor]

Snip

I am wrong. Ran the numbers, Longsword does not beat Mortal fear.

[Steve_Howe]

A good longsword is a long time coming. This sword looks to break the game.

Counter proposal: +15, Greater Vorpal, Doublestrike +5 (insight bonus), Red Augment, Orange Augment, Yellow Augment, Crit Range 17-20.

Jeez Louise! The sword hasn't even been made yet and you're calling for a nerf!

Maybe you should wait until it's released and tested by actual players so you have some hard data on it before you condemn if first???

[Infiltraitor]

Jeez Louise! The sword hasn't even been made yet and you're calling for a nerf!

Maybe you should wait until it's released and tested by actual players so you have some hard data on it before you condemn if first???

You are correct, I ran the numbers. The long sword isn't as strong as my mortal fear heavy pick and also the crit profile benefits very little from Celestial Champion +1 range due to having minimal threat multiplier.

[DrWily]

http://ddowiki.com/images/Eloquence_shown.jpg

https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/DDO%20Q3%20%202013%2016-9%20C%20NOCAL.jpg

Finally, justice has been done.

[maddong]

I would think the goggles would be a must slot for a wisdom person if they were +12 wis or +4 insightful wis. There is no reason to have them both. If you want to put both bonuses on it reserve it for the mythic version.

[Xahtep]

The raid tower shield looks nice. Something on it caught my eye: it is [3d10]. With vanguard capstone and maybe paly holy sword buff that will go up to what, 3[3d10] 17-20 x4? It could be a typo too and meant to be 3[1d10] but if its the first case it will become THE tower shield to have.

[moo_cow]

yes, borderline no brainer.. and wisdom toons need something like this.
our wisdom toons have been passed over for far too long to not get some love.
Don't screw with this one .. I like it just the way it is... Monks and clerics can finally rejoice..

It is very OP for a monk IMO. All this does for my monk is it allow me to drop wisdom to 8 and use no level ups into wisdom, and still have a 76-78 stun dc in ld. Good for dc wisdom based builds, but I think it gives too much to a monk. I want my monk to have more damage not to have a higher than no fail stun dc.

[Steve_Howe]

It is very OP for a monk IMO. All this does for my monk is it allow me to drop wisdom to 8 and use no level ups into wisdom, and still have a 76-78 stun dc in ld. Good for dc wisdom based builds, but I think it gives too much to a monk. I want my monk to have more damage not to have a higher than no fail stun dc.
Nope.

My pure Monk has an 83 stunning fist DC. The goggles make it an 84. Big effing deal.

Leave the new goggles alone. They're fine.

[draven1]

And stop with the Illusion items. No one uses that school, ever. DDO is very limited with those spells anyway. Unless one of the devs personally dislikes how few spells ddo has compared to DnD and wants to right that wrong, then by all means continue with the Illusion items! I feel niche items as such would provide enough of a farm for players to deck out their alts or specific builds while not going down the path of +15 stat item, quality bonus, determination bonus, profane bonus, insightful bonus, exceptional bonus, sacred bonus, new bonus, old bonus, big bonus, little bonus.

I use illusion spells for my wiz :D
Don't presume every wiz is a necromancer

[BankCoffer]

I use illusion spells for my wiz :D
Don't presume every wiz is a necromancer

Yeah, because casting exactly one spell is a reason to spec for it.

[draven1]

Yeah, because casting exactly one spell is a reason to spec for it.

Phantasmal killer isn't only one that I cast on illusion spells :D
Yea, illusion has very narrow spell section now, but so, we can request more illusion spells for the future.
Like weird, nightmare, misdirection, mirror image, veil, rainbow pattern spells.

[BankCoffer]

Phantasmal killer isn't only one that I cast on illusion spells :D

Oh, my bad. You cast Hypnotic Pattern too

[moo_cow]

Nope.

My pure Monk has an 83 stunning fist DC. The goggles make it an 84. Big effing deal.

Leave the new goggles alone. They're fine.

Yes and you can get a no fail stun dc by investing no wisdom at all. That is completely stupid. Also it would give you a minimum of 4 to your dc, but okay.

The point was not to say that I have a fairly decent stun dc. The point was that you can wear these goggles and put 0 points into wisdom, start with a 6-8 wisdom, and still be able to stun everything in the game. 8 starting wisdom +0 level ups into wisdom + 0 point invested in wisdom in enhancement trees and you get a 76-78 stunning fist. The only useful tool based on wisdom for a monk and they are making it so easy to get.

[PermaBanned]

The SR 35 doesn't stack (no Spell Resistance does); it's mostly for flavor on a Bearded Devil themed item (hence why that item's got more effects than most others in this pack). Much like the Feather Fall clicky, we could remove it if people don't like it, but we're not likely to replace it with anything. That said, we've heard some feedback that people aren't super-happy with this item in general, we'll be taking a look at it today.About that belt: would it be possible to change that Teleport clicky to something of a "Planar Travel" clicky? With destinations not available from Teleport/Greater Teleport like Eaveningstar & Shavrath? Let it count as a "flavor slot" like the Spell Resistance (which could really go away and not be missed) so it doesn't take up a "useful property" slot?

Edit: On that PT clicky idea - perhaps instead of Eaveningstar directly, have both Halls of Heros as destination options?


There are no new Augments in U27.
I don't recall all y'all having promised any either - I'm still disappointed at the lack of any new Augments, so much wasted opportunity... Make 'em 1) Friggin' cool, and 2) Raid only drops that aren't on the 20th list and suddenly Chest Ransack matters vs Raid Timer consumption rate.


To the best of my (quick-researching) knowledge, Dazing was fixed around U21. If there ARE problems with Dazing item effects in any form at the moment, please submit a bug report with the specific effect and we'll take a look.Well, this was posted on 6/18/2015...


The Vertigo part has been fixed, but the Dazing part remains. I'll adjust the Known Issues today.... and is reflected in the current Known Issues list. Do you still want bug reports on it? (For clarity: I don't want Dazing dropped from the goggles, but it would be nice to see Dazing fixed ;))

[bloodnose13]

im realy giddy about longsword, there is not many good ones in ddo, as oposed to bastard swords, khopeshes and all that kind,recent longswords were treated like utility offhand weapon, im happy to see a one that is treated like weapon, i think though that sword could use something else than improved banishment, something more unique than that for a longsword, like negative levels or limbchop, or a composite new effect that does few diffrent effects depending on if its a hit, crit or 20, but otherwise, waiting for it.

as for ultimatum - tower shield, two things, one- ac bonus could go bit higher to be closer to madstone aegis or as high as it has, and i would like to suggest changeing the immunity to bonus to saves against that spell and a reroll of save on first failed roll, it would keep the effect still dangerous to everyone while makeing it less of a problem, i think everyone still remmebers how poison and diesise immunities ended up, and how they were before.

[Steve_Howe]

Yes and you can get a no fail stun dc by investing no wisdom at all. That is completely stupid. Also it would give you a minimum of 4 to your dc, but okay.

The point was not to say that I have a fairly decent stun dc. The point was that you can wear these goggles and put 0 points into wisdom, start with a 6-8 wisdom, and still be able to stun everything in the game. 8 starting wisdom +0 level ups into wisdom + 0 point invested in wisdom in enhancement trees and you get a 76-78 stunning fist. The only useful tool based on wisdom for a monk and they are making it so easy to get.
A 76-78 Stun DC isn't no fail in EE Stormhorns. I'll bet it isn't no fail in U27 EE material either. Why don't you just wait until stuff comes Live when you can get actual data before calling for premature nerfs?

[DrawingGuy]

I would think the goggles would be a must slot for a wisdom person if they were +12 wis or +4 insightful wis. There is no reason to have them both. If you want to put both bonuses on it reserve it for the mythic version.

I whole heartedly disagree. +11 WIS only comes on Goggles, a caster helm, and orbs (which monks can't use). +3 INS WIS only comes on Goggles, caster helm, and planar trinkets or low level motu outfits. To lose helm for a crappy caster helm closes out tons of melee and survival based options. To be stuck with Spider-Spun Caparison is similarly frustrating. These goggles would be a major answer for Monks, and while Clerics and FvS benefit better from the caster helms, would also love the helm (though likely will still pocket Glimpse of the Soul). I think the WIS and INS WIS needs to stay. Finally unlocking my DC Monk from old and poor item choices coupled with finally a new Ki item has made it where never have I been more excited about an item.

The only balance area that may need work is the Dazing. This turns the item from a Monk and WIS DC caster item to everyone with Stun moves - stunning blow, Bard freeze moves (which don't need help), and shield stuns with the WIS just being a nice Will save boost. If it was shaved down to Dazing VII instead of X, or even just Stunning 12. At that point it would become a build option for stunning rather than a BIS item for stunning. As much as I like even higher SF, this actually would be a boon for Monks as now not every single melee that builds for CC will be vying for the item so they would be much more likely to be passed it in a Raid.

[moo_cow]

A 76-78 Stun DC isn't no fail in EE Stormhorns. I'll bet it isn't no fail in U27 EE material either. Why don't you just wait until stuff comes Live when you can get actual data before calling for premature nerfs?

That's odd because I have run stormhorns a **** ton and the only thing that can possibly save is shadowvars. And that is rare.

[Steve_Howe]

That's odd because I have run stormhorns a **** ton and the only thing that can possibly save is shadowvars. And that is rare.

Riiiiiiiight.

[MrWindupBird]

It is very OP for a monk IMO. All this does for my monk is it allow me to drop wisdom to 8 and use no level ups into wisdom, and still have a 76-78 stun dc in ld. Good for dc wisdom based builds, but I think it gives too much to a monk. I want my monk to have more damage not to have a higher than no fail stun dc.

I think it's sort of funny that the message that unarmed-is-terrible has finally percolated through, and they try to address it by making too-strong goggles which really wont help at all with dps (real issue). Bards and vanguards still will have higher stun DCs and more varied CC options, incidentally.

As far as this particular itemization, I would drop the wis to 11, and preferably avoid +12 stat items at all till lvl 30. +4 insight wis is great. Quality bonuses I am not a fan of: we have too many types already.

More importantly to me, and not mentioned yet, the enhanced ki should be dropped to +1. Currently ki-on-hit is a bit useless, since monks dont have anything useful to spend it on other than stunning fist and possibly QP (doubtful), and its very easy to regenerate enough without even a +1 on-hit item (or with a +1 item if you use QP a lot, for some quixotic reason).
However, I forsee a future where ki will actually be relevant again after monks get their enhancement pass, and at that point the existence of an item with +3 ki-on-hit wil be hugely unbalancing. TL;DR having +3 ki-on-hit doesn't actually give any benefit over +1 ki-on-hit in the current state of the game, but will likely make rebalancing monks down the line more difficult. The only toons who might actually benefit would be shuriken toons/AAs who drop into melee to whack things for 2 secs out of every 2 mins, which is neither here nor there.

Other items look strong, but unimaginative. Having effects unique to raid loot, rather than just stronger/consolidated affixes, would be a wonderful thing. The possibilities are endless, but on-hit-procs to provide a tensors buff (sort of like Fabricators bracers), chance to ignore enemy dodge (rare but it exists), more light-damage-type weaponry, unique clickies with an angelic theme are some example. I realize it's a tough balance to strike: Quelling Strikes from Purging the Pantheon is quite cool, but not quite useful. Deific Diadem buff is an example of a unique and useful affix. I'd toss a lot of possibilities at the PC/Lamma-land, let us help decide which work well.

[Vooduspyce]

Can we please get potency added to one of the caster items like the gloves? not enough epic level potency items out there. Or a potency augment would be sweet!

[Saekee]

im realy giddy about longsword, there is not many good ones in ddo, as oposed to bastard swords, khopeshes and all that kind,recent longswords were treated like utility offhand weapon, im happy to see a one that is treated like weapon, i think though that sword could use something else than improved banishment, something more unique than that for a longsword, like negative levels or limbchop, or a composite new effect that does few diffrent effects depending on if its a hit, crit or 20, but otherwise, waiting for it.
.
From Steelstar:
+13, Improved Banishing, Sovereign Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Armor Piercing 20%, Doublestrike 15%, Red Augment Slot, Orange Augment Slot (Crit Range of 17-20)

It would be interesting to have some sort of effect that is tied to its crazy crit range, even Axiomatic Burst, or Good Blast (http://ddowiki.com/page/Good_Blast) (even Great Godly Wrath (http://ddowiki.com/page/Godly_Wrath)). Bloodletter would not be in sinc with its apparent lore, which seems to be tied to the tendency to make longswords in DDO seem like Paladin weapons (see my old thread here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/455980-Lore-Should-Paladin-Holy-Sword-only-work-with-Long-Swords)).

I am assuming Flametouched iron or Cold Iron too? There are few epic named longswords of worth; Oathblade is great at its level but gets quickly outpaced by TF.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

For tripping, the Greaves will get you a better DC than the Epic Boots of the Innocent. They are boots specifically meant for Trip DCs. If you use all three Tactics feats frequently, EBotI might still be better, but your Trip DCs will be worse. As for the lack of Speed 15, what would you say should be removed to add it?

-Steel

i think that there is no one who uses trip but not stunning blow. if i am wrong about this, and tons of people do use trip but not stunning blow, my mind will be blown. watch peoples videos, random peoples videos, play the game, look at what melee players are doing. tactical abilities is pretty much a playstyle choice that generally it seems is all or nothnig. so making boots specifically for trip doesnt benefit anyone i dont think.

i talked with a melee friend of mine, and he even uses stunning blow, which i think is uncommon. but he doesnt use trip. so yea, im not sure the "big time trip boots" thing is catering to, well, anyone.

concerning lack of speed 15:
1) why does something need to be dropped for it? every single effect on innocents is valuable/useful and iirc it has more effects than hooks anyway.
2) if its really a huge concern, dont take anything away and dont add speed 15. but its ridiculous for ml 28 BOOTS to not have 30% striding at least.

innocents:
gh skills - handy when combined with em gaze
11 resist - nice, duh
12 all tactics - very nice, because it doesnt screw any one of your dcs
speed 15 - nice, but not special, seems like a standard effect for high level boots
choice of slot color - blue slot is better than yellow for non casters by a mile

hooks:
12 str - nice, duh

12 trip - hmmmkay, but only because of the stun 15 goggles. id honestly prefer to have this be 12 all tactics, and then i just wouldnt use the goggles.

2 trip - not really necessary. trip is already easier to land most of the time, so if this is going to be here at all either make it for stun or all tactics, just trip is highly unncecessary, and yes with this effect the hook boots will get you a higher trip dc. heres the thing though, as ive already stated trip is generally not hard to land at all when you have halfway decent str and +trip and +all tac dc items on. additionally, you are sacrificing a lot to wear hooks for +1 enhancement bonus to str and +2 trip dc. if you cant land your trip dc with innocents, this +2 is not going to change things for you.

5 all tactics - ok, but i can get this elsewhere too. i guess its fine that its here because it gives more choice freedom. however, viewing this as a major contribution to trip dc over innocents is insanity and a mistake, because as ive said you can get this effect or even the +6 version elsewhere, and anyone who wants to use tactics a lot surely will have slotted it already.

lack of slot color choice - id rather have a blue slot over a yellow, big time

no striding, no speed - i still havent seen a reason why this isnt here. this kind of effect should be on nearly every boots slot item at this level, and especially for a melee. once again not having even striding screws anyone who doesnt have the abbot/mod quiver.


id also highly highly highly recommend making the yellow slot a blue. what am i supposed to put in a yellow after a deathblock aug? ff? water breathing? blindness immunity? +1 necro dc? gimme a break. ill put something that actually increases my survivability like +mdb, golems heart, good luck, false life, or natural armor even. or i could put in something to help with skills like -asf.

so upon reflection, they have an equal number of effects. if one absolutely must be dropped from hooks to add speed 15, kick +2 trip dc to the curb plz. easy decision.

also, i get that thematically you want these to be trip boots, but how are epic innocents thematically tactic boots? given that, i beg you to please please please just put +12 all dcs and +2 q trip -> speed 15. please. otherwise you are going to nuke my reflex save and elemental resists "because trip flavor". :(

[Xerio]

You can get speed on shadow dragonscale armor too, if you are not wearing heavy (which imo, epic DR is better) then it's a fairly solid option.

[DrawingGuy]

More importantly to me, and not mentioned yet, the enhanced ki should be dropped to +1. Currently ki-on-hit is a bit useless, since monks dont have anything useful to spend it on other than stunning fist and possibly QP (doubtful), and its very easy to regenerate enough without even a +1 on-hit item (or with a +1 item if you use QP a lot, for some quixotic reason).
However, I forsee a future where ki will actually be relevant again after monks get their enhancement pass, and at that point the existence of an item with +3 ki-on-hit wil be hugely unbalancing. TL;DR having +3 ki-on-hit doesn't actually give any benefit over +1 ki-on-hit in the current state of the game, but will likely make rebalancing monks down the line more difficult. The only toons who might actually benefit would be shuriken toons/AAs who drop into melee to whack things for 2 secs out of every 2 mins, which is neither here nor there.


I disagree with the Ki-on-hit only benefiting shuri/aa toons. My monk is not a STR monk that sits in LD and only uses Stunning Fist. I run GMoF, use finishers and debuffs, shintao moves, SF, and I do use QP a lot. Even with +2 regen from GMoF and +1 regen from Henshin, and 100+ concentration, and +1 ki on hit from Spider-Spun, I still have to be careful with my use. The +3 ki-on-hit was huge for me, and I had a blast with it. I'd be very sad to see that go.

I do agree with looking for new things to add to items and new combinations over straight stat climbs. Xoriat update was the most disappointing item release for me for DDO in recent years - here we have a story line that has some of the most unique and fun loot in the entire game, and instead of continuing that or even at least pulling from it, it was just same-ol-same-ol, but watered down for that level. Shav has their special PrE-based combos, and it would have been nice to see that taken to epic levels and fold in all the ones that have been added over the years. Though at this point it's likely far too late to make suggestions for something of that scale.

[IronClan]

how many updates untill DDO will be full jRPG? we will have hundreads of thousands HP, millions damage, mobs will have billions HP and we will handle swords three times bigger than us? the power creep turned to power sprint.
+12 ability items, +6 tomes in constant sale. I bet we will have some temporary offers of +7 tomes in next few months.
instead of making any new gear OP and old gear irrelevant and outdated, make new stuff with old effects but with new combinations. also some sets would be great. some old gear like for example VON stuff is asking for itself to be a set, some of those items have even almost the same names - kundarak delving googles/suit/boots.
when you have no ideas for new content, or just have no money/time for it, make new difficulty setting for old epic quests. call it whatever and make it's quest level the max level possible in given moment. add some items that would conver old epic item to new shiny version with a bit higher bonuses. just don't make drop rate like it was for sos shard for years.

This is how RPG's work if there's nothing better to get there's no reason to play more. it really is that simple. Power creep is a term made up by MMO players, in a development studio they use terms like progression and stagnation and progression is something to strive to achieve not a scary boggieman to be feared. it should have been obvious to anyone that +12 stat items would happen, along with every other higher affix where there's a clear progression that stopped around mid 20's expect all of them to eventually get newer end game values.

I will never understand why a subset of MMO players fear "powercreep" it's just math...

[IronClan]

I really like the Longsword... it's about time there was a Longsword worthy of looting in this game.

The Greataxe is now good stuff...

Thumbs up overall

[the_one_dwarfforged]

You can get speed on shadow dragonscale armor too, if you are not wearing heavy (which imo, epic DR is better) then it's a fairly solid option.

i use shadowstriker, and honestly hadnt even realized that it had 15% melee alacrity. theres still 2 problems with it though.

1) still dont have striding, meaning anyone not wasting a bracer or whatever slot on some non bis item still would need to get themselves a quiver if they didnt already have it.

2) if i was to do my same build as twf, id be using toee armor instead, meaning this would leave me in the same boat.

[Powerhungry]

Since the introduction of update 17 and the ghostbaning of vorpal (adding hp limit and putting it on any weapon type), give the longsword true vorpal.

Vorpal per 3.5 rules
This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes. Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing weapon.
and as per the original (pre ghostbaned vorpal) does not work on bosses (red/purple named). but most importantly - no hp limit. 1k hp limit on a 40k hp mob is silly (even 'sovereign' with a 3k limit is silly with the hp totals mobs now have).

[wiliamsane]

Mythic Bonuses are available on all of the loot in the Raid. There are two tiers of Mythic that can appear (+1/+2 and +3/+4, depending on the item), and Mythics in different slots always stack. Mythics cannot appear in the 20th List, and will be extremely hard to get (especially the higher tier) outside of Epic Elite. The bonuses may seem small, but stacking them in a variety of slots on Raid gear adds up. Not saying this is the be-all-end-all solution to the concerns about running at difficulty, it's just one piece of that puzzle.

-Steel

I dont know but i dont like this idea much ... Imagine a scenario where you already have lets say gloves and then pull another one with mythic upgrade (+1/+2 one) of course you will not give it up for roll to others . Same will happen when you luckyly pull better one (+3/+4) You will be really lucky person with 3 almost same items .. where 1 (2) could have been passed to other people. If the base non-mythic items will have similar chance to drop like 3 latest raids (Deathwyrm , Fire, and MoD) where you can barely see 1 item dropped for party in 30 or so chests openings -> then this idea is just terible. Make mythics in raids have only 1 mythic version (better one , it is raid after all) And give base items much much higher chance to drop than we are used to see ... People will still hunt 20th completions if they are after one or more particular item but please .. give some chance to drop it in raid too :( ... And while you are at it you can give a bump to drop chances in previously mentioned raids too ? :rolleyes:

Also any word on raid completions preserving on iconic/heroic reicarnation ?

[RTFM]

I've never had a toon at lvl 28 that could not use a teleport scroll. In fact I can't even remember having a toon past lvl 16 or so that could not use a teleport scroll (and I am talking every single class in the game). The prime reason to put points into UMD is Raise Dead scrolls, the second reason is Teleport! Putting this on a lvl 28 item is a total waste.


I like the teleport clickie.

[RTFM]

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with you (and I think a lot of players I know would disagree with you).

Let's use your example MOD. If I want to kit out my toons with MOD gear, which I really did at least two of them, I was forced with a decision:

1. Forget it, because the drop rates are so incredibly low, and people just loot any gear that drops whether they need it or not, it would take 120-200 runs (total for two toons) to get the gear I wanted.. Even with raid timers, that is a LOT of runs of the same raid. It also costs a lot of plat or store points for all the timers. It is a grind.

2. Run the raid once every 3 days on each toon for the next year, eliminating the need for timers.

3. Run the raid in bursts of 5-20 back to back runs when you get a solid group that can "get it done" without problems on EN, spending oodles of plat, store points on timers (i actually went plat poor on ALL my toons buying timers for MOD on the AH months ago, which was kinda weird being plat poor again!). All I can say is....200 runs to get what I wanted, only actually pulled one item (litany, I already had it by then so put up for roll), and won rolls for two items over that entire 200 runs.

Now I chose #3, and so both my mains have most of what I wanted on them, but still NOT everything! But I'm pretty burned out on running MODS for the time being, hence my 3rd and 4th toons, have NO GEAR and won't be running it anytime soon.

Now you call this system above, too easy? Its a total grind, and only fun AFTER you have the gear. During the grind its a major bummer. It would be much more so having to do 1000 runs because no 20 end reward, or waiting 1 year of grinding every day because timers are no longer available.

So Cetus I don't agree, your approach is way too elitist and totally disenfranchises even the slightest "casual" hard core player! Devs, keep the system as it is, it is already a total pain I still have to run another 200 MODS to get two more toons geared, that's plenty difficult enough.


Heres the usual concern, a concern that I and others have been communicating each and every time a raid is released.

Will you make all of these items, which look like a job well done actually (this hasn't always been the case - so kudos) just a raid bypass zerg on normal away from being essentially a guarantee to anyone who desires them? Something needs to be done about the difficulty with which these can be acquired. Either through *GASP* tiered loot, neutering bypass timers, or introducing mythic versions only for EE. Or some happy combination of all three. I don't know.

Despite the amazing loot present within abbot, that quest has been sacked for 6 minute runs on normal until all of its rewards have been cheapened by the ease of their acquisition.

[nolifer1]

i like countendance kloak, whats the point of quality vertigo and trip? its completly usless on caster robe, not sinlgle meele wil be using it anway, make nice castre robe and replace verogo with insightful chrisma 4!

[Steve_Howe]

i like countendance kloak, whats the point of quality vertigo and trip? its completly usless on caster robe, not sinlgle meele wil be using it anway, make nice castre robe and replace verogo with insightful chrisma 4!

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/462959-U27-Items-Official-Discussion-Round-2#post5652243

[Shoemaker]

I disagree with the Ki-on-hit only benefiting shuri/aa toons. My monk is not a STR monk that sits in LD and only uses Stunning Fist. I run GMoF, use finishers and debuffs, shintao moves, SF, and I do use QP a lot. Even with +2 regen from GMoF and +1 regen from Henshin, and 100+ concentration, and +1 ki on hit from Spider-Spun, I still have to be careful with my use. The +3 ki-on-hit was huge for me, and I had a blast with it. I'd be very sad to see that go.I do agree with looking for new things to add to items and new combinations over straight stat climbs. Xoriat update was the most disappointing item release for me for DDO in recent years - here we have a story line that has some of the most unique and fun loot in the entire game, and instead of continuing that or even at least pulling from it, it was just same-ol-same-ol, but watered down for that level. Shav has their special PrE-based combos, and it would have been nice to see that taken to epic levels and fold in all the ones that have been added over the years. Though at this point it's likely far too late to make suggestions for something of that scale.My only issue here is that I don't think that a +16 WIS item should also have ki regeneration. I'd much rather see a +1 or +2 stacking to damage bonus for melee build clerics.

[Steve_Howe]

My only issue here is that I don't think that a +16 WIS item should also have ki regeneration. I'd much rather see a +1 or +2 stacking to damage bonus for melee build clerics.

It's a Monk-centered item that just happens to also be useful for Clerics.

Leave the goggles alone please.

[Rusty_Can]

i like countendance kloak, whats the point of quality vertigo and trip? its completly usless on caster robe, not sinlgle meele wil be using it anway, make nice castre robe and replace verogo with insightful chrisma 4!

Bugged and acknowledged.


Ooh! Yeah, that's not supposed to be there. There's supposed to be a Green Augment Slot in its place.

[Shoemaker]

I've never had a toon at lvl 28 that could not use a teleport scroll. In fact I can't even remember having a toon past lvl 16 or so that could not use a teleport scroll (and I am talking every single class in the game). The prime reason to put points into UMD is Raise Dead scrolls, the second reason is Teleport! Putting this on a lvl 28 item is a total waste.

I likr the fact that the teleport clickie is 3 charges and since there's no svroll cases this little extra flavor on this item is nice.

[Cetus]

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with you (and I think a lot of players I know would disagree with you).

Let's use your example MOD. If I want to kit out my toons with MOD gear, which I really did at least two of them, I was forced with a decision:

1. Forget it, because the drop rates are so incredibly low, and people just loot any gear that drops whether they need it or not, it would take 120-200 runs (total for two toons) to get the gear I wanted.. Even with raid timers, that is a LOT of runs of the same raid. It also costs a lot of plat or store points for all the timers. It is a grind.

2. Run the raid once every 3 days on each toon for the next year, eliminating the need for timers.

3. Run the raid in bursts of 5-20 back to back runs when you get a solid group that can "get it done" without problems on EN, spending oodles of plat, store points on timers (i actually went plat poor on ALL my toons buying timers for MOD on the AH months ago, which was kinda weird being plat poor again!). All I can say is....200 runs to get what I wanted, only actually pulled one item (litany, I already had it by then so put up for roll), and won rolls for two items over that entire 200 runs.

Now I chose #3, and so both my mains have most of what I wanted on them, but still NOT everything! But I'm pretty burned out on running MODS for the time being, hence my 3rd and 4th toons, have NO GEAR and won't be running it anytime soon.

Now you call this system above, too easy? Its a total grind, and only fun AFTER you have the gear. During the grind its a major bummer. It would be much more so having to do 1000 runs because no 20 end reward, or waiting 1 year of grinding every day because timers are no longer available.

So Cetus I don't agree, your approach is way too elitist and totally disenfranchises even the slightest "casual" hard core player! Devs, keep the system as it is, it is already a total pain I still have to run another 200 MODS to get two more toons geared, that's plenty difficult enough.

Don't know what to tell ya, there's a whole world of players out there who got all their stuff by just sacking 20th end reward lists. Both of my mains are geared with pretty much what they wanted from MOD by doing exactly that.

Regardless, it is a simple fact that achieving 20 runs in MOD with a group capable of doing 6-8 minute runs would take...20*10 (say an extra 2 minutes here and there to talk to quest givers and eat timers) = 200 minutes. 3 hours and 20 minutes. Boom - guaranteed most powerful trinket in the game. Or Deific Diadem, or quiver, or whatever.

Over a span of a few weeks this can easily be done to ones satisfaction - especially since any one toon probably needs on average like 2-3 items from there as part of their permanent gear setup.

[Hara]

Cetus,

the reason that there is a whole world of players out there that have all the gear they need from MoD is that they had/have a big fat pile of Raid By PassTimers, I wonder where they got them from? Anniversary Cards perhaps?

I'm still struggling to work out what I think Turbine should do with regard to Raid By Pass Timers, part of me wants them gone forever, but with so few end game raids I'm worried that what raid LFMs are up on a nightly basis will vanish as less players are able to run them due to being on timer. Then again wont Raid By Pass Timers simply accelerate the end of MoD as a played raid, as suggested by your asertion that lots of players have all the gear they need from it.

Without By Pass Timers your 20 runs will take a lot longer to achieve, just like in the past before they were introduced. Many people ran raids and got nothing until their 20th run and people still ran the raids.

I think that perhaps the answer is to have a stable of end game raids that have loot of comparable power with the chance of dropping +6 and +7 tomes, or possibly +5 supremes ( I guess you'll tell me everyone already has these) mixed in with a number of end quests such as HH and ToEE. Then maybe we can get rid of Raid By Pass Timers, of course if they do I imagine there will be a whole outcry and rage quit threads on the forums.

[RTFM]

Again, I think there could be much better clickie. Dark Discorporation 2X per day sounds a heck of a lot more useful. Give us something that is NOT available with scrolls. At lvl 28 inventory space is also NOT an issue so I don't care if its 100 times per day clickie, I can have a stack of scrolls so the feature is a total waste.


I likr the fact that the teleport clickie is 3 charges and since there's no svroll cases this little extra flavor on this item is nice.

[RTFM]

Cetus,

the reason that there is a whole world of players out there that have all the gear they need from MoD is that they had/have a big fat pile of Raid By PassTimers, I wonder where they got them from? Anniversary Cards perhaps?



Do you remember the definition of assume "Assume: To make and a** of you and me". You have to remember that if you run MOD there is probably someone in the party willing to give out raid timers.

My guild leader bought stacks of 100's long before the "Anniversary Cards" and would pass them out on raid nights, of if guildies needed them.

I personally spent millions in plat, draining multiple plat capped toons on my last MOD spree for me 2nd main. I even had to bum 1 million plat from a guildie to buy yugo pots on an alt this last life, because none of my toons had more than 200K plat from buying timers on the AH. They are not expensive, 250K usually (It does not take much grinding to make 250K plat actually).

Timers are also not expensive to buy with TP.

So, there are LOTS of ways to get timers, not just from "Anniversary card playas".




I'm still struggling to work out what I think Turbine should do with regard to Raid By Pass Timers, part of me wants them gone forever, but with so few end game raids I'm worried that what raid LFMs are up on a nightly basis will vanish as less players are able to run them due to being on timer. Then again wont Raid By Pass Timers simply accelerate the end of MoD as a played raid, as suggested by your asertion that lots of players have all the gear they need from it.

Without By Pass Timers your 20 runs will take a lot longer to achieve, just like in the past before they were introduced. Many people ran raids and got nothing until their 20th run and people still ran the raids.

I think that perhaps the answer is to have a stable of end game raids that have loot of comparable power with the chance of dropping +6 and +7 tomes, or possibly +5 supremes ( I guess you'll tell me everyone already has these) mixed in with a number of end quests such as HH and ToEE. Then maybe we can get rid of Raid By Pass Timers, of course if they do I imagine there will be a whole outcry and rage quit threads on the forums.

Personally, I think they should do away with raid timers altogether. It has always been a stupid mechanic and a relic of the days VON 6 was the only real raid in the game. Thank goodness they got rid of "flagging for every run" which was also something people argued against!

TOEE is a great example of a grind nobody wants to do. I've run it lately 1x a day, even with a strong group that knows what its doing, its too long and when I look at the grind, I'll probably never have a weapon from there. MOD, I will keep running on alts until they all have gear....will take several months WITH timers on my schedule, but it least it feels productive. Running TOEE? Fun for a while but no way am gonna grind like that to craft those weaps.

[RTFM]

Regardless, it is a simple fact that achieving 20 runs in MOD with a group capable of doing 6-8 minute runs would take...20*10 (say an extra 2 minutes here and there to talk to quest givers and eat timers) = 200 minutes. 3 hours and 20 minutes. Boom - guaranteed most powerful trinket in the game. Or Deific Diadem, or quiver, or whatever.

I know what you mean, but fact is unless you are willing to lead, or have guys that are willing who you run with, it is not exactly like there are PUGS up every day on the LFM for MOD that know how to do 6 minute runs. So yah, for some players its 200 minutes in one or multiple sessions (I myself can only take about 10 in a row before wanting to puke of boredom, but usually only run 3-6 in a row). But for casual or the majority of players getting 20 runs is not "200 minutes in one sitting". It usually means waiting for some friend to host a run when he happens to be on at the same time, or waiting for that LFM to pop up and hoping the group can complete in 20 mins per run (the focus here on the hoping the group can complete).

I think the game is better if more people can get uber gear with a reasonable amount of grind, and 20 runs for a casual or weekend player is not exactly "easy".

[fmalfeas]

Or just a player that starts to want to scream if they run the exact same thing too frequently.

[slarden]

I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with you (and I think a lot of players I know would disagree with you).

Let's use your example MOD. If I want to kit out my toons with MOD gear, which I really did at least two of them, I was forced with a decision:

1. Forget it, because the drop rates are so incredibly low, and people just loot any gear that drops whether they need it or not, it would take 120-200 runs (total for two toons) to get the gear I wanted.. Even with raid timers, that is a LOT of runs of the same raid. It also costs a lot of plat or store points for all the timers. It is a grind.

2. Run the raid once every 3 days on each toon for the next year, eliminating the need for timers.

3. Run the raid in bursts of 5-20 back to back runs when you get a solid group that can "get it done" without problems on EN, spending oodles of plat, store points on timers (i actually went plat poor on ALL my toons buying timers for MOD on the AH months ago, which was kinda weird being plat poor again!). All I can say is....200 runs to get what I wanted, only actually pulled one item (litany, I already had it by then so put up for roll), and won rolls for two items over that entire 200 runs.

Now I chose #3, and so both my mains have most of what I wanted on them, but still NOT everything! But I'm pretty burned out on running MODS for the time being, hence my 3rd and 4th toons, have NO GEAR and won't be running it anytime soon.

Now you call this system above, too easy? Its a total grind, and only fun AFTER you have the gear. During the grind its a major bummer. It would be much more so having to do 1000 runs because no 20 end reward, or waiting 1 year of grinding every day because timers are no longer available.

So Cetus I don't agree, your approach is way too elitist and totally disenfranchises even the slightest "casual" hard core player! Devs, keep the system as it is, it is already a total pain I still have to run another 200 MODS to get two more toons geared, that's plenty difficult enough.

I saw around 20 MOD runs on Sarlona this weekend so I am sure Turbine's data would show that people didn't stop running the raid after a few months because of bypass timers.

Bypasses work great for me because I work and can't always find raids during the week the few hours I am available for gaming, but I can make up for it on the weekend by running some extra raids. To me the $ spend tiny relative to other forms of entertainment. What does a single trip to comiccon cost?

There are some people that think Turbine should not be selling anything and they will always blame every DDO problem on store items. It was that way before bypass timers also. Ironically the same players want to see rare unbound items so they can sell those for AS and TP codes lol. Just watch the posts and you will see it. They are fine with the fact that people spend money that ends up going to them - they think it's morally wrong if people spend money and goes only to Turbine lol.

There is also a difference of perspective between a person that has 1 or 2 characters vs. those that have 5-6 or more. The game has largely encouraged creating 1-2 super characters instead of a pool of alts in recent years. I think it's very healthy for the game to encourage alts because that was one of the main reasons raiding was so big pre-U14. More people had more alts to run raids and get bta ingredients. They also wanted to get gear for their alts so they can be effective.

By 20 runs of shroud I had an item made. By 20 runs of TOD I had an item made. by 20 runs of eChrnoscope I had an item made. By 20 runs of eVon I had an item made. You can give your eSoS to a main and your epic Antique Greataxe to an alt. The best stuff always went to main characters but the alts could help the main characters and vice versa.

If they want to encourage raiding they should boost raid xp significantly. That would do more to boost raiding than getting rid of bypass timers. They already have proof high xp increases how often an old raid is run - Von5/6.

[Skavenaps]

It's a Monk-centered item that just happens to also be useful for Clerics.

Leave the goggles alone please.

no, this item is beyond OP. it needs a nerf right now.

[Shoemaker]

Again, I think there could be much better clickie. Dark Discorporation 2X per day sounds a heck of a lot more useful. Give us something that is NOT available with scrolls. At lvl 28 inventory space is also NOT an issue so I don't care if its 100 times per day clickie, I can have a stack of scrolls so the feature is a total waste.

You seem to have the false assumption that everyone has TONS of inventory space, I have 10-15 empty inventory slots on my 28 toon if I'm lucky and my bank, shared bank, and TR cache are all full or are what they are. I worked hard to make a lot of my TR gear with special metal types and or augment slots, and I'm not interested in throwing it away to make a less of a version. Many of my toons don't have slots to spare.

You also seem to be under the false assumption that everyone has TONs of UMD to be able to use scrolls. I have quite a few toons that have no points in UMD because they have low INT so didn't have points to spare and they have low or no CHA so it wasn't worth investing in anyways. This is the only 3 charge teleport clickie in the game, and I appreciate what it can offer.

Finally, the devs have also already said that if we don't want the teleport clickie, they'd be happy to take it off the item, but there is not enough development time to add anything else or new in it's place, so it's a 3 charge TP or nothing. I'd rather have the TP.

[Xahtep]

Again, I think there could be much better clickie. Dark Discorporation 2X per day sounds a heck of a lot more useful. Give us something that is NOT available with scrolls. At lvl 28 inventory space is also NOT an issue so I don't care if its 100 times per day clickie, I can have a stack of scrolls so the feature is a total waste.



Do you remember the definition of assume "Assume: To make and a** of you and me". .

"Assume", nice word... From personal experience, i have seen people NOT having teleport (or umd for that matter) at cap. I know, buncha of newbs. Also the mask from ghola fan still is bought for over 300 shards ( personal experience, again). Dont know why, since umd is far cheaper/easier even as a cross class skill.

Its not a perfect item, thats true, but has its uses.
Look at it, it screams FLAVOR all over the place it just happpens to have +12 int.

Have you seen steel post some pages ago? Taking away the clicky wont make them put something better (like insight int +4).
In any case, this one shows the love of devs for int builds, exactly like the epic eye of the beholder (but at least that time they gave int based toons the eFanged gloves with same # in stat)

[JOTMON]

You seem to have the false assumption that everyone has TONS of inventory space, I have 10-15 empty inventory slots on my 28 toon if I'm lucky and my bank, shared bank, and TR cache are all full or are what they are. I worked hard to make a lot of my TR gear with special metal types and or augment slots, and I'm not interested in throwing it away to make a less of a version. Many of my toons don't have slots to spare.

You also seem to be under the false assumption that everyone has TONs of UMD to be able to use scrolls. I have quite a few toons that have no points in UMD because they have low INT so didn't have points to spare and they have low or no CHA so it wasn't worth investing in anyways. This is the only 3 charge teleport clickie in the game, and I appreciate what it can offer.

Finally, the devs have also already said that if we don't want the teleport clickie, they'd be happy to take it off the item, but there is not enough development time to add anything else or new in it's place, so it's a 3 charge TP or nothing. I'd rather have the TP.

UMD is not a false assumption, UMD is always worth investing into..
You gimp yourself and bring less to the group if you cannot use Scrolls in higher levels.(exception is cleric who can already use heal scrolls and cast Resurrection.. and even then.. there are arcane scrolls that are useful)..

UMD 36 and a stack of scrolls.. not that difficult to build up even for partial success.. teleport rods from the ddo store are usable by anyone at any level.

A teleport clickie is not a bad item.. its just at level 28 from a current endgame named item.. meh... teleport is a swap-in as needed item..
I use the Royal Guard Mask at level 11.. a great item used to be a good farming item until Devs screwed the drop rate.. now it is just a grindy farm.. but infinitely useful item and fully unbound.
3x clickie for teleport.. meh... 1x/rest is generally effective enough.. 3x for the lazy traveller who doesn't want to wait at the local tavern for a minute to recharge...


If it comes down to 3x Teleport or nothing, then sure.. I'll get a 3x teleport clickie and trade off my Royal guard mask to a lowbie..
The point in general is.. we want the named bound gear to be goodies to help us in game....
teleport clickies and FF are accessories we want to find that are usable through a much larger level range and unbound.. or at worst BTA..

Now a BTA no-min level teleport clickie that I can use in TR lives or on alts would be great.. think stuff like Quiver of Alacrity, Jack Jibbers blade, upgradeable Ioun stones... these are the oddball goodies we hunt for...
a unbound clickie does have value as a tradeable item, just less so if it is locked in at level 28 ..
The combinations for the belt really only has the +12 Int as the desirable component .. the lesser displace.. resists.. meh.. 2 augment slots.. ok.. but compared to MOD at level 27.. meh..

[IronClan]

This.


We have +4 Insightful Str, Dex, Con, Int and Wis now, but no +4 Insightful Cha. What makes Cha the bastard child of the abilities?

Really? Bastard child? LOL

Look I want a +4 CHA item just as much as the next player who has um... well ... almost any DDO character... but lets not go crazy :) CHA is the most powerful flexible stat in the game and it's not even close.

[Cetus]

Cetus,

the reason that there is a whole world of players out there that have all the gear they need from MoD is that they had/have a big fat pile of Raid By PassTimers, I wonder where they got them from? Anniversary Cards perhaps?

I'm still struggling to work out what I think Turbine should do with regard to Raid By Pass Timers, part of me wants them gone forever, but with so few end game raids I'm worried that what raid LFMs are up on a nightly basis will vanish as less players are able to run them due to being on timer. Then again wont Raid By Pass Timers simply accelerate the end of MoD as a played raid, as suggested by your asertion that lots of players have all the gear they need from it.

Without By Pass Timers your 20 runs will take a lot longer to achieve, just like in the past before they were introduced. Many people ran raids and got nothing until their 20th run and people still ran the raids.

I think that perhaps the answer is to have a stable of end game raids that have loot of comparable power with the chance of dropping +6 and +7 tomes, or possibly +5 supremes ( I guess you'll tell me everyone already has these) mixed in with a number of end quests such as HH and ToEE. Then maybe we can get rid of Raid By Pass Timers, of course if they do I imagine there will be a whole outcry and rage quit threads on the forums.

Ehh...well ok we're starting to talk about a slightly tangential topic as to whether raid bypasses should exist or not. As far as where they're coming from, of course a multitude of them were obtained through anniversary cards by a ridiculous amount of players - so they flooded the market. It is also true that tons of plat and TP were spent on them as well, so its a combination of several approaches. In the end, there's an abundance of them out there, and make the acquisition of any raid item in the game just a time sink - no challenge whatsoever.

Now if you are interested in having a conversation about whether they should exist? No, I don't think they should. I think they hurt the game by expediting the death of new content.

And no, I wouldn't say that everyone already has +7 tomes. I'm not sure what you were getting at with that statement, but I try to be honest in my remarks.


I know what you mean, but fact is unless you are willing to lead, or have guys that are willing who you run with, it is not exactly like there are PUGS up every day on the LFM for MOD that know how to do 6 minute runs. So yah, for some players its 200 minutes in one or multiple sessions (I myself can only take about 10 in a row before wanting to puke of boredom, but usually only run 3-6 in a row). But for casual or the majority of players getting 20 runs is not "200 minutes in one sitting". It usually means waiting for some friend to host a run when he happens to be on at the same time, or waiting for that LFM to pop up and hoping the group can complete in 20 mins per run (the focus here on the hoping the group can complete).

I think the game is better if more people can get uber gear with a reasonable amount of grind, and 20 runs for a casual or weekend player is not exactly "easy".

Yea, these are all fair points. But the bottom line is that this is merely a time sink and NOT a challenge. The best gear in the game shouldn't be "x minutes away". It should be available to those who can overcome the challenge necessary to obtain it, otherwise - keep trying. That's what makes people keep coming back and seeking character improvements in the first place.

[Drakos]

no, this item is beyond OP. it needs a nerf right now.No, it really doesn't!

[Steve_Howe]

no, this item is beyond OP. it needs a nerf right now.

Nope. Update 27 isn't even final yet so there's absolutely NO WAY you can say that with any degree of certainty whatsoever.

[FestusHood]

Yea, these are all fair points. But the bottom line is that this is merely a time sink and NOT a challenge. The best gear in the game shouldn't be "x minutes away". It should be available to those who can overcome the challenge necessary to obtain it, otherwise - keep trying. That's what makes people keep coming back and seeking character improvements in the first place.

Here's the flaw with your argument. The channel i am in consists of many players that you would call casual. Despite that, we still manage to muster up a raid now and then. As a group, we simply aren't tough enough to complete endgame raids on epic elite.

You seem to be suggesting that a person simply not be able to get this loot at all unless they run the raids on epic elite. Here is the result of that. I wouldn't buy the pack, and i would advise other people in my circle not to buy it as well, as there would be no reasonable expectation of getting the loot from it.

That ends the argument, doesn't it?

[IronClan]

no, this item is beyond OP. it needs a nerf right now.

On the one hand putting the newly best in slot stat item with the new best possible +12 stat and the first ever source of +4 insightful Wisdom does seem like a dreamy combo...

On the other hand it's Wisdom... the least useful stat in the entire game... and Clerics and FvS's are currently the least powerfull classes in the game.

I'm going to side with: this is a good item because Wisdom is the least useful stat in the entire game.

[Loromir]

This is the official discussion thread for U27 items in the new round of Lamannia! Yes, we get an official thread this time. :)

Item Updates:


Five more items for the U27 Raid have been created.
The Test Dojo cabinet now contains all U27 items that are in the current build.
Heroic U27 items that had +5 bonuses to individual saves have been bumped to +8
The U27 Khopesh and Greataxe have had their material type changed to Flametouched Iron
Heroic U27 items that had +5 to Ability Scores have been bumped to +6
Resonation and the Lantern Ring no longer replace each other's bonuses
The U27 Buckler is no longer a Small Shield
The Epic Shield of Tireless Aid is now properly made of Densewood


A few other notes for things not in this build:

We're planning on making the Greataxe's crit multiplier x4.
We're planning on making all of the weapons in this pack either Cold Iron or Flametouched Iron.
We're planning on having a Longsword in the Raid, looking something like this:

+13, Improved Banishing, Sovereign Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Armor Piercing 20%, Doublestrike 15%, Red Augment Slot, Orange Augment Slot (Crit Range of 17-20)




Sorry if I've missed this, but Heroic Riftmaker getting x4 crit? If so, I think it should scale back to x3. x4 on the epic version is just right.

[FestusHood]

Sorry if I've missed this, but Heroic Riftmaker getting x4 crit? If so, I think it should scale back to x3. x4 on the epic version is just right.

Might be a good upgrade to Carnifex for crit oriented melees. Probably no more unbalanced than. With holy sword, Carnifex would be 15-20 x4. Riftmaker would be 17-20 x5. 18 vs. 16 crit power.

[Cetus]

Here's the flaw with your argument. The channel i am in consists of many players that you would call casual. Despite that, we still manage to muster up a raid now and then. As a group, we simply aren't tough enough to complete endgame raids on epic elite.

You seem to be suggesting that a person simply not be able to get this loot at all unless they run the raids on epic elite. Here is the result of that. I wouldn't buy the pack, and i would advise other people in my circle not to buy it as well, as there would be no reasonable expectation of getting the loot from it.

That ends the argument, doesn't it?

This isn't a flaw at all. You'd get the kind of loot that is appropriate to the challenge you overcame. I'm not eliminating loot from lesser difficulties in my proposal, its just that the EE loot should be gated by the challenge that is required to obtain it. That's all. Simple risk vs. reward logic here.

I just don't see how players who are unable to beat the game at its hardest can still sport the same gear as those who can. Wheres the incentive to improve then?

"Look there's a shiny! I wanna go get it, I'll do X, Y, Z and maybe that'll work". If it doesn't work, you don't get the shiny. Period. This applies to me as well, if there's something too difficult for me, I expect to not enjoy the reward until I figure out a way to beat it.

[Steve_Howe]

Here's the flaw with your argument. The channel i am in consists of many players that you would call casual. Despite that, we still manage to muster up a raid now and then. As a group, we simply aren't tough enough to complete endgame raids on epic elite.

You seem to be suggesting that a person simply not be able to get this loot at all unless they run the raids on epic elite. Here is the result of that. I wouldn't buy the pack, and i would advise other people in my circle not to buy it as well, as there would be no reasonable expectation of getting the loot from it.

That ends the argument, doesn't it?
Sorry Festus, if you can't complete quests on the highest difficulty setting, why on earth do you feel entitled to the best loot?

Maybe I'm reading you wrong here but that does seem to be what you're saying.

[Chai]

Here's the flaw with your argument. The channel i am in consists of many players that you would call casual. Despite that, we still manage to muster up a raid now and then. As a group, we simply aren't tough enough to complete endgame raids on epic elite.

You seem to be suggesting that a person simply not be able to get this loot at all unless they run the raids on epic elite. Here is the result of that. I wouldn't buy the pack, and i would advise other people in my circle not to buy it as well, as there would be no reasonable expectation of getting the loot from it.

That ends the argument, doesn't it?

That doesnt end the discussion. Heres why.

This "I must have access to the best reward even when I cannot or will not aspire to play the harder parts of the game" is something people will not let go of due to being conditioned by past and previous eras of the game where elite is the default xp difficulty, and the same BTA gear drops on casual / normal as drops on elite. The end gamers did the same thing you posted here, and began heavily attriting - either money wise by not buying packs, or head count wise by leaving to play other games.

You are basically demanding that the company value the market audience you belong to, and outlining what can happen if they dont, which is fine, but this cannot be done by alienating other market audiences from getting what they want either, and still be referred to as sound business strategy, as evidenced by the massive attrition of endgamers for the past few years now. Thus, it is recognized that some semblance of endgame needs to exist in DDO which does not equate to running normal difficulty 20x in the same day for rewards, which is what this will turn into if there isnt a reason to run harder difficulty settings.

[Thrudh]

The goggles while clearly amazing for a Monk, are really going to be the best Goggles for many builds due to having both +12 Wisdom and +4 Insight Wisdom. That's the best possible stat consolidation item in the entire game. I support having +4 Insight stat mods available, but maybe not on the same items that have the +12 version of the same stat. At least, leave that for mythic or Reaper or whatever.

Yeah, it's not good design to have a +12 stat AND a +4 Insight stat on the same item for the same stat...

[FestusHood]

This isn't a flaw at all. You'd get the kind of loot that is appropriate to the challenge you overcame. I'm not eliminating loot from lesser difficulties in my proposal, its just that the EE loot should be gated by the challenge that is required to obtain it. That's all. Simple risk vs. reward logic here.

I just don't see how players who are unable to beat the game at its hardest can still sport the same gear as those who can. Wheres the incentive to improve then?

"Look there's a shiny! I wanna go get it, I'll do X, Y, Z and maybe that'll work". If it doesn't work, you don't get the shiny. Period. This applies to me as well, if there's something too difficult for me, I expect to not enjoy the reward until I figure out a way to beat it.

You were specifically talking about raid loot. As far as i know, these don't yet have mythic versions, just the one. They already have higher drop rates on elite. We're not talking about getting a slightly better version of the item on elite, we're talking about getting the item in any form, at all.

Believe it or not, there are many people playing this game that can never reasonably expect to beat MOD on epic elite. Certainly not often enough to farm it. Are you willing to pay 5000 tp for new packs to make up for all the lost sales from people who don't buy it because they know there is literally no chance to ever get the loot from it?

I will assume then that you think an appropriate droprate for phlogs in thunderholme would be 0% on epic normal, 2% on hard, and 100% on elite?

Before you say that people who can't complete epic elite raids aren't trying hard enough, i'll just say that the belief that anybody can do anything with enough effort is inaccurate. Innate talent is a real thing. If Shaq couldn't make his free throws, i guess he just wasn't trying hard enough right?

[Steve_Howe]

You were specifically talking about raid loot. As far as i know, these don't yet have mythic versions, just the one. They already have higher drop rates on elite. We're not talking about getting a slightly better version of the item on elite, we're talking about getting the item in any form, at all.

Believe it or not, there are many people playing this game that can never reasonably expect to beat MOD on epic elite. Certainly not often enough to farm it. Are you willing to pay 5000 tp for new packs to make up for all the lost sales from people who don't buy it because they know there is literally no chance to ever get the loot from it?

I will assume then that you think an appropriate droprate for phlogs in thunderholme would be 0% on epic normal, 2% on hard, and 100% on elite?

Before you say that people who can't complete epic elite raids aren't trying hard enough, i'll just say that the belief that anybody can do anything with enough effort is inaccurate. Innate talent is a real thing. If Shaq couldn't make his free throws, i guess he just wasn't trying hard enough right?

Sorry Festus, it's one thing to treat people equally, it's quite another to make them equal.

[FestusHood]

Sorry Festus, if you can't complete quests on the highest difficulty setting, why on earth do you feel entitled to the best loot?

Maybe I'm reading you wrong here but that does seem to be what you're saying.

Wrong. Raid loot. So no loot at all. If i can't get any loot from a pack, i won't buy it. That's fine, i can live without the u27 pack. Can the game live without money?

[Steve_Howe]

Yeah, it's not good design to have a +12 stat AND a +4 Insight stat on the same item for the same stat...

Really? What "School Good of Design" says that and why, exactly?

[Steve_Howe]

Wrong. Raid loot. So no loot at all. If i can't get any loot from a pack, i won't buy it. That's fine, i can live without the u27 pack. Can the game live without money?

Without YOUR money? Assuredly.

Please keep in mind you do not speak for a whole heck of a lot of people.

[FestusHood]

That doesnt end the discussion. Heres why.

This "I must have access to the best reward even when I cannot or will not aspire to play the harder parts of the game" is something people will not let go of due to being conditioned by past and previous eras of the game where elite is the default xp difficulty, and the same BTA gear drops on casual / normal as drops on elite. The end gamers did the same thing you posted here, and began heavily attriting - either money wise by not buying packs, or head count wise by leaving to play other games.

You are basically demanding that the company value the market audience you belong to, and outlining what can happen if they dont, which is fine, but this cannot be done by alienating other market audiences from getting what they want either, and still be referred to as sound business strategy, as evidenced by the massive attrition of endgamers for the past few years now. Thus, it is recognized that some semblance of endgame needs to exist in DDO which does not equate to running normal difficulty 20x in the same day for rewards, which is what this will turn into if there isnt a reason to run harder difficulty settings.

Let's follow this. Starting with u27, all raids only have any chance to drop items if completed on epic elite. This also applies to 20th completion lists. Only verified epic elite completions will henceforth count toward this total. Brilliant. Let's try that and see what happens to the raiding scene.

As far as this other gobbledygook, what are you talking about? We're not talking about whether or not there should be an endgame here.

In our society, people who have lots of money can simply buy nice things. People with more modest incomes can also have some nice things, they just have to be frugal and it takes a long time. I guess you say the heck with that, you can't ever have these things. Here is a bone you dog.

[slarden]

This isn't a flaw at all. You'd get the kind of loot that is appropriate to the challenge you overcame. I'm not eliminating loot from lesser difficulties in my proposal, its just that the EE loot should be gated by the challenge that is required to obtain it. That's all. Simple risk vs. reward logic here.

I just don't see how players who are unable to beat the game at its hardest can still sport the same gear as those who can. Wheres the incentive to improve then?

"Look there's a shiny! I wanna go get it, I'll do X, Y, Z and maybe that'll work". If it doesn't work, you don't get the shiny. Period. This applies to me as well, if there's something too difficult for me, I expect to not enjoy the reward until I figure out a way to beat it.

It's the same circular problem. You run it and get a superior item because you ran it on EE. now you don't feel challenged because you increased your power and could already beat the content before the new shiny.

I think the devs are doing it right by adding the mythic bonuses as chase items that mostly drop on EE. Small, but useful bonuses like trs.

If anything I think the approach steel layed out is a bit too restrictive. +2 mythics should drop at a higher rate on EH and +4 mythics should drop at a higher rate EE. It sounds like both mythic bonuses will rarely drop below EE. They should offer some incentive to step up to EH instead of EN instead of making it EE or close to 0 chance for a mythic.

[FestusHood]

Without YOUR money? Assuredly.

Please keep in mind you do not speak for a whole heck of a lot of people.

I don't speak for a lot of people. Hmm. Number of people who regularly complete endgame raids on elite vs people who complete them on other difficulties. I wonder which is a higher number? I'm not just talking about my money. I'll also throw in the 20 or so people who raid from the channel i am in. You make it an epic elite only game, those people are out. and that's just from our one little obscure channel. Many of those people have asked my advice on what to buy, and i advised them. Guess what my advice would be on this one?

[FestusHood]

It's the same circular problem. You run it and get a superior item because you ran it on EE. now you don't feel challenged because you increased your power and could already beat the content before the new shiny.

I think the devs are doing it right by adding the mythic bonuses as chase items that mostly drop on EE. Small, but useful bonuses like trs.

If anything I think the approach steel layed out is a bit too restrictive. +2 mythics should drop at a higher rate on EH and +4 mythics should drop at a higher rate EE. It sounds like both mythic bonuses will rarely drop below EE. They should offer some incentive to step up to EH instead of EN instead of making it EE or close to 0 chance for a mythic.

He wasn't talking about mythic quest items. He was talking about all or nothing raid loot.

[Rys]

Can we get the tiered loot again?

Also, why not any new augments? Is this system completly abandoned now?

[Drakos]

I don't speak for a lot of people. Hmm. Number of people who regularly complete endgame raids on elite vs people who complete them on other difficulties. I wonder which is a higher number? I'm not just talking about my money. I'll also throw in the 20 or so people who raid from the channel i am in. You make it an epic elite only game, those people are out. and that's just from our one little obscure channel. Many of those people have asked my advice on what to buy, and i advised them. Guess what my advice would be on this one?Just because they run the raids on the highest levels does not mean YOU speak for them. Not everyone who runs these on elite feels as you do. Some people don't care about how others get the loot they get.

[JOTMON]

You were specifically talking about raid loot. As far as i know, these don't yet have mythic versions, just the one. They already have higher drop rates on elite. We're not talking about getting a slightly better version of the item on elite, we're talking about getting the item in any form, at all.

Believe it or not, there are many people playing this game that can never reasonably expect to beat MOD on epic elite. Certainly not often enough to farm it. Are you willing to pay 5000 tp for new packs to make up for all the lost sales from people who don't buy it because they know there is literally no chance to ever get the loot from it?

I will assume then that you think an appropriate droprate for phlogs in thunderholme would be 0% on epic normal, 2% on hard, and 100% on elite?

Before you say that people who can't complete epic elite raids aren't trying hard enough, i'll just say that the belief that anybody can do anything with enough effort is inaccurate. Innate talent is a real thing. If Shaq couldn't make his free throws, i guess he just wasn't trying hard enough right?


well your drop rate ratio's are screwed..
but realistically harder challenge=better reward.. its basic human psychology of risk vs reward( and punishment)..

Every gamer goes through the mental calculation of challenge vs reward..
do you level and move on, do you stay.. do you go back and run old content as an over level player...
rewards come in lots of different forms.. XP, Gear, Plat, Favor, levelling, fame, fortune, whatever....


in tiered challenges it makes sense to have tiered rewards.. casual/normal/hard/elite..
Running lower tiers to build up to hit higher tiers.. its stepping stones to success.. get transitional items to be good enough to get to the next level..


I am not a fan of purely random drops, but am ok with having them..
Generally, chasing mythics randomly.. just sucks..
let me get tokens to upgrade to a mythic after so many runs.. random is.. random...I don't go to casino's for the same reason.. its BS.
you are playing the random numbers game.. I would rather a path of repetitiveness with a chance of random bonus reward.

I like 20th incrementals for a choice of something from the list.. adding unbound tomes would be nice for ongoing completions.


Ultimately it still takes practice and trying over and over to get that comfort level..
I don't think its any different for any athlete.. your example of Shaq isn't all about free throws.. yeah he has size and some natural talent, but even Shaq practices.. even if it is in his own basketball training court at his house.. that's not just for show.. most NBA players(Shaq included) train 3 hours a day, every day, all year round.. throwing 300-500 shots an hour every day trying to improve their game... any athlete in any sport is doing the same thing.. they are training, researching, improving their knowledge and skill. They are not sitting around smoking ciggies and downing beers playing poker all night and showing up just in time for games to throw the free throw and call it a day.


Now if anyone had the desire and was trying to get better and was going out there every day and throwing 500 baskets, trying on every one, every day for a year, would you be a better basketball player.. sure you would.. would be be NBA worthy.. probably not... but you would be better than you were..


When I first started running Abbot, it was ugh fail, fail, fail, fail, ...doom...
Eventually the guild leader of the guild I was in back then was hey. lets go practice puzzle sides. we set 2 people as static runners, and 2 for each puzzle.
and we ran it 20 times a night without completing.. we save completion runs for the weekend so we didn't screw up timers..
Rotating 6man crews of 2 per puzzle teams.. every night for weeks we practiced.. rinse/repeat.. until we hit the benchmark success ratio.
Then we could run a raid with the static 6 people and fill with guildies or pugs as desired.. as long as we had the 6 player core we were good to go.
Then Abbots became a every 3 day run.. occasional fails due to lag or pugs not listening.. but generally 90% success consistently.
My cleric had 120+ heroic completions before I was done with Abbott for him.. it was tough, but worth the work we put into it.


MoD.. pft.. why even bother trying heroic when Epic MoD is soo much easier... 10 minute no-fail runs, guaranteed full list after 20 runs.
Why bother Elite.. Elite only offers a time sink, aggravation and resource usage and relatively no better reward.
Our best MoD EE run was about 40ish minutes when it first came out.(hours of preparation, re-speccing, gearing, organizing, optimizing party) and it was rough.. 1 named item dropped for the party.
Rinse repeat 10 minute normal runs goes pretty quick.. what is the motivation to challenge higher.. there is none.. hence.. no one running EE's, or EH, or even trying to put a group together for it once you have done it once or twice.. there is no reward increase.. so farm normals it is...

[FestusHood]

Just because they run the raids on the highest levels does not mean YOU speak for them. Not everyone who runs these on elite feels as you do. Some people don't care about how others get the loot they get.

I'm not even attempting to speak for people who run raids on the highest levels. I'm speaking for people who can't do that actually. The group i raid with would have 0 chance of completing any level 30 raid on epic elite. I was specifically addressing Cetus' irritation that people were able to get Mark of Death loot without running epic elite.

[FestusHood]

well your drop rate ratio's are screwed..
but realistically harder challenge=better reward.. its basic human psychology of risk vs reward( and punishment)..

Every gamer goes through the mental calculation of challenge vs reward..
do you level and move on, do you stay.. do you go back and run old content as an over level player...
rewards come in lots of different forms.. XP, Gear, Plat, Favor, levelling, fame, fortune, whatever....


in tiered challenges it makes sense to have tiered rewards.. casual/normal/hard/elite..
Running lower tiers to build up to hit higher tiers.. its stepping stones to success.. get transitional items to be good enough to get to the next level..


I am not a fan of purely random drops, but am ok with having them..
Generally, chasing mythics randomly.. just sucks..
let me get tokens to upgrade to a mythic after so many runs.. random is.. random...I don't go to casino's for the same reason.. its BS.
you are playing the random numbers game.. I would rather a path of repetitiveness with a chance of random bonus reward.

I like 20th incrementals for a choice of something from the list.. adding unbound tomes would be nice for ongoing completions.

Ultimately it still takes practice and trying over and over to get that comfort level..
I don't think its any different for any athlete.. your example of Shaq isn't all about free throws.. yeah he has size and some natural talent, but even Shaq practices.. even if it is in his own basketball training court at his house.. that's not just for show.. most NBA players(Shaq included) train 3 hours a day, every day, all year round.. throwing 300-500 shots an hour every day trying to improve their game... any athlete in any sport is doing the same thing.. they are training, researching, improving their knowledge and skill. They are not sitting around smoking ciggies and downing beers playing poker all night and showing up just in time for games to throw the free throw and call it a day.

Now if anyone had the desire and was trying to get better and was going out there every day and throwing 500 baskets, trying on every one, every day for a year, would you be a better basketball player.. sure you would.. would be be NBA worthy.. probably not... but you would be better than you were..

When I first started running Abbot, it was ugh fail, fail, fail, fail, ...doom...
Eventually the guild leader of the guild I was in back then was hey. lets go practice puzzle sides. we set 2 people as static runners, and 2 for each puzzle.
and we ran it 20 times a night without completing.. we save completion runs for the weekend so we didn't screw up timers..
Rotating 6man crews of 2 per puzzle teams.. every night for weeks we practiced.. rinse/repeat.. until we hit the benchmark success ratio.
Then we could run a raid with the static 6 people and fill with guildies or pugs as desired.. as long as we had the 6 player core we were good to go.
Then Abbots became a every 3 day run.. occasional fails due to lag or pugs not listening.. but generally 90% success consistently.
My cleric had 120+ heroic completions before I was done with Abbott for him..

If they were to add mythic versions to raid loot that was only available on epic elite, i would be fine with that, provided the difference wasn't between awesome and garbage. I was specifically responding to systems already in place, which don't have tiered versions.


My comment about Shaq was intended to be sarcasm. I'm fully aware that Shaq practiced free throws even more than the average player. My point is that there are many people playing this game who will never be able to rise to the level of completing endgame raids on elite. Since there is currently no tiered raid loot, the only way to differentiate the difficulties is with droprates. As long as there is any chance at all of loot dropping on normal, there will be people who got their loot on that difficulty. Just last Sunday i pulled a Dumathoin's (sp?) bracers from a deathwyrm that we ran on epic normal. Why were we running epic normal? Because that's all we can handle at this point. Maybe someday we will try it on epic hard, since in my opinion it's a much easier raid than the twin dragon one. Epic elite? Very unlikely we will ever even attempt it on this difficulty, because it would be futile.

I'm fine with upgrade systems personally. If elite drops three times as many upgrade widgets as normal, i'm ok with that. There's a difference between making people with less ability work harder and excluding them completely. The thunderholme raids do this nicely.

[IronClan]

Believe it or not, there are many people playing this game that can never reasonably expect to beat MOD on epic elite.

This is an idea you have often repeated and I'm here to tell you it's just wrong; you me, or anyone can have multiple Elite raid completions with 100% feasibility. You've put raiding on this unattainable horizon as some sort of tightly knit hard to get into good ol boys club, it's a figment of how you view the game, not actually how the game is.

I've completed every raid in the game on E and nearly 100% of the raids I join were joined from the LFM panel and 70% of them were lead by someone I either didn't know from adam or only passingly know.

People who talk about raiding like it's some sort of exclusive club with dreaded "elitists" and big mean "ubers" do the entire game a disservice. When I started playing DDO this talk on the forums did more to make me timid about joining raids than anything else... then I stopped salavating over the "raid loot I'll never have because I'm not elite" and I joined a raid... I found no one paying any mind to me, I found very little of anyone who expected anything more than "try and follow directions and not intentionally goof things up". I found the vast majority of leaders willing to explain what was going on, and even *gasp* most people in raids willing to laugh off a honest mistake.

You know what REALLY hit me about raids?


No one cares what you're doing unless you ask for responsibility (I'll tank so and so, I can do this puzzle) so if you don't ask for a responsibility you can just blend in and DPS what needs it, and help as you feel comfortable/capable.
No one cares if you die... even less than Quests! EVERYONE dies in raids some players have this dread of dieing around other players, almost a performance anxiety sort of thing... no one gives a flip in raids... they throw a raise and barely note who it was who needed it.
It's remarkable just how willing most good raid leaders are to explain things, and how very seldom I've ever seen someone abused for being new to a raid (like literally not one time in the entire time I've played have i seen someone admit to not knowing the raid and get flack for it)


The biggest hurdle to someone getting an EE raid completion is the willingness to join the LFM's that go up for them and maybe tough out a failure here and there, regen hp and SP and zone back in for another try.

[FestusHood]

This is an idea you have often repeated and I'm here to tell you it's just wrong; you me, or anyone can have multiple Elite raid completions with 100% feasibility. You've put raiding on this unattainable horizon as some sort of tightly knit hard to get into good ol boys club, it's a figment of how you view the game, not actually how the game is.

I've completed every raid in the game on E and nearly 100% of the raids I join were joined from the LFM panel and 70% of them were lead by someone I either didn't know from adam or only passingly know.

People who talk about raiding like it's some sort of exclusive club with dreaded "elitists" and big mean "ubers" do the entire game a disservice. When I started playing DDO this talk on the forums did more to make me timid about joining raids than anything else... then I stopped salavating over the "raid loot I'll never have because I'm not elite" and I joined a raid... I found no one paying any mind to me, I found very little of anyone who expected anything more than "try and follow directions and not intentionally goof things up". I found the vast majority of leaders willing to explain what was going on, and even *gasp* most people in raids willing to laugh off a honest mistake.

You know what REALLY hit me about raids?


No one cares what you're doing unless you ask for responsibility (I'll tank so and so, I can do this puzzle) so if you don't ask for a responsibility you can just blend in and DPS what needs it, and help as you feel comfortable/capable.
No one cares if you die... even less than Quests! EVERYONE dies in raids some players have this dread of dieing around oither players, almost a performance anxiety sort of thing... no one gives a flip in raids... they throw a raise and barely note who it was who needed it.
It's remarkable just how willing most good raid leaders are to explain things, and how very seldom I've ever seen someone abused for being new to a raid (like literally not one time in the entire time I've played have i seen someone admit to not knowing the raid and get flack for it)


The biggest hurdle to someone getting an EE raid completion is the willingness to join the LFM's that go up for them and maybe tough out a failure here and there, regen hp and SP and zone back in for another try.

We are a fairly tightly knit channel. We have raid nights specifically so that we can raid together. We want to raid together, and even those folks among us who have gone outside the channel to get their raid completions have admitted that it is much more enjoyable for them to do it with their friends rather than strangers. For many of the people in our channel it is hard enough to get them to join in on these raids even when entirely consisting of people that they know they enjoy playing with. They don't want to join pug raids, and won't.

Several of the people in our channel have joined even epic elite pugs for Mark of Death. They did this, not to get elite completions, but hoping to learn something that they could use to help our group complete it on epic normal. Yes, that's right, we have not yet been able to complete this raid, even on normal. It would probably be helpful if we could get more than 5 or 6 people to even try it. We've discussed opening up the group on the lfm, but frankly there is a difference between being the one person essentially piking in a raid, and being the majority of the group.

[Grailhawk]

It would probably be helpful if we could get more than 5 or 6 people to even try it. We've discussed opening up the group on the lfm, but frankly there is a difference between being the one person essentially piking in a raid, and being the majority of the group.

You and your group need to get over what ever anxiety is keeping you form putting up the LMF, just do it.

[Xahtep]

We are a fairly tightly knit channel. We have raid nights specifically so that we can raid together. We want to raid together, and even those folks among us who have gone outside the channel to get their raid completions have admitted that it is much more enjoyable for them to do it with their friends rather than strangers. For many of the people in our channel it is hard enough to get them to join in on these raids even when entirely consisting of people that they know they enjoy playing with. They don't want to join pug raids, and won't.

Several of the people in our channel have joined even epic elite pugs for Mark of Death. They did this, not to get elite completions, but hoping to learn something that they could use to help our group complete it on epic normal. Yes, that's right, we have not yet been able to complete this raid, even on normal. It would probably be helpful if we could get more than 5 or 6 people to even try it. We've discussed opening up the group on the lfm, but frankly there is a difference between being the one person essentially piking in a raid, and being the majority of the group.

You guys need to get out of your comfort zone.

Try again, fail again and fail better. Just make sure someone have Resurrection scrolls.

[Thrudh]

Really? What "School Good of Design" says that and why, exactly?

Takes away choice. Bad design... Anyone who uses Wisdom as a primary stat now has one choice for a Wisdom item. All other goggles are now off the table for that character.

I mean, I've got characters who might use a +11 item instead of a +12 item in my primary stat to make gearing work, but no one is going to pass up a +12 item that ALSO has +4 insight bonus...

Absolute best in slot items are bad design. There should always be some trade-off... Hard choices means the devs are doing it right. No-brainers mean they messed up.

Plus, what's the point of even having an insight bonus if you're going to put it on the same item as the primary stat? Just get rid of insight bonuses and make it a +16 wisdom item.

[FestusHood]

You guys need to get out of your comfort zone.

Try again, fail again and fail better. Just make sure someone have Resurrection scrolls.

Trust me, it's not for lack of trying. The 5 or 6 of us that are willing to try and learn this have gone in there, many times knowing that we will fail before we start. We don't have some of the right parts to make it easier, i.e. none of us has a caster that can reliably crowd control the archers, let alone anything else.

[Steve_Howe]

Takes away choice. Bad design... Anyone who uses Wisdom as a primary stat now has one choice for a Wisdom item. All other goggles are now off the table for that character.

I mean, I've got characters who might use a +11 item instead of a +12 item in my primary stat to make gearing work, but no one is going to pass up a +12 item that ALSO has +4 insight bonus...

Absolute best in slot items are bad design. There should always be some trade-off... Hard choices means the devs are doing it right. No-brainers mean they messed up.

Plus, what's the point of even having an insight bonus if you're going to put it on the same item as the primary stat? Just get rid of insight bonuses and make it a +16 wisdom item.
Disagree.

My monk will NOT be using these new goggles.

Why, you ask?

Because he uses Epic Litany of the Dead trinket.

So what?

Right now my monk uses Epic Glimpse of the Soul which has +11 WIS, True Seeing and some other stuff. My +3 to WIS is in my docent which I will NOT be giving up because it also has a +3 to CON insight bonus.

If I change out Glimpse of the Soul for the new goggles, I lose True Seeing but gain another 2 to my Wisdom. Since I lose True Seeing, I have to get it back some other way, probably via the Compass trinket which means I lose Litany of the Dead. That means I lose +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom so I'm back where I started Wisdom-score-wise. Not only do I lose the +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom, I lose the +2 Profane bonus to all other stats.

Since I refuse to lose True Seeing, I will NOT be using the new goggles on my monk. The new goggles are NOT NECESSARILY the absolute best in slot item even for monks.

[Ape_Man]

Trust me, it's not for lack of trying. The 5 or 6 of us that are willing to try and learn this have gone in there, many times knowing that we will fail before we start. We don't have some of the right parts to make it easier, i.e. none of us has a caster that can reliably crowd control the archers, let alone anything else.

Make some more friends?

[Grailhawk]

Plus, what's the point of even having an insight bonus if you're going to put it on the same item as the primary stat? Just get rid of insight bonuses and make it a +16 wisdom item.

In this case it prevents power creep of having a +16 item and then fitting in a +4 or 3 insight item, that's the point.

[FestusHood]

Make some more friends?

You've said that before, it's just not me. I've been on losing teams before, my first thought wasn't "later guys, i'm gonna go join the other team". Even if that was satisfying for me, which it wouldn't be, it would do nothing to help my other friends.

[Xahtep]

Disagree.

My monk will NOT be using these new goggles.

Why, you ask?

Because he uses Epic Litany of the Dead trinket.

So what?

Right now my monk uses Epic Glimpse of the Soul which has +11 WIS, True Seeing and some other stuff. My +3 to WIS is in my docent which I will NOT be giving up because it also has a +3 to CON insight bonus.

If I change out Glimpse of the Soul for the new goggles, I lose True Seeing but gain another 2 to my Wisdom. Since I lose True Seeing, I have to get it back some other way, probably via the Compass trinket which means I lose Litany of the Dead. That means I lose +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom so I'm back where I started Wisdom-score-wise. Not only do I lose the +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom, I lose the +2 Profane bonus to all other stats.

Since I refuse to lose True Seeing, I will NOT be using the new goggles on my monk. The new goggles are NOT NECESSARILY the absolute best in slot item even for monks.

For an 16 item like that id be scrolling true seeing every 10 minutes if necesary. But i see your point. Still those googles need some sort of balancing. Not completly removing the +3 ki of course.

[fangblackhawk]

I'd like all of these things more if there was a reason to want them. Why do I want ML28 loot at this point? Just like with TF tier 3 and MOD items, these items should be ML26. ML27 max.

iirc the producers letter stated the cap will increase from 28 to 30 near the end of the year...... giving us about 6 months to get a smattering of gear we "think" will work with epic green steel from hints we hope we interpreted right (a few hours of a ui on test server that didnt exist and was possibly mentioned to be possibly be linked to epic green steel and or sentient wepons for one).... to have to farm the stuff out we really should of been farming for what epic green steel really is for our Uber end game builds and the new and improved shroud farm ....... and will i die if i wear uncleansed heroic green steel with epic uncleansed green steel

[Unsmitten]

Would you consider trading the +2 quality will save on Resonation to +20 Perform? or the wizardry XI on Gauntlets of the Arcane Soldier?

Perform +20 items are to my knowledge only on ML25 Ring of Deceit from FoT and ML27 Cord of Reprisals from Inferno of the Damned. Another itemization option for perform would be much appreciated, especially if it's on a beneficial item like Resonation would be.

[Xahtep]

Would you consider trading the +2 quality will save on Resonation to +20 Perform? or the wizardry XI on Gauntlets of the Arcane Soldier?

Perform +20 items are to my knowledge only on ML25 Ring of Deceit from FoT and ML27 Cord of Reprisals from Inferno of the Damned. Another itemization option for perform would be much appreciated, especially if it's on a beneficial item like Resonation would be.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Shimmering_Pendant

[slarden]

Can we get the tiered loot again?

Also, why not any new augments? Is this system completly abandoned now?

We basically have that with mythic bonuses now. +2 and +4 mythics rarely drop below EE and aren't available as 20th end rewards.

It sounds like it's not as tiered as previously - you can get the +2 and +4 mythics on EE and very rarely below that level. At least that is the way I understand it.

[JOTMON]

Takes away choice. Bad design... Anyone who uses Wisdom as a primary stat now has one choice for a Wisdom item. All other goggles are now off the table for that character.

I mean, I've got characters who might use a +11 item instead of a +12 item in my primary stat to make gearing work, but no one is going to pass up a +12 item that ALSO has +4 insight bonus...

Absolute best in slot items are bad design. There should always be some trade-off... Hard choices means the devs are doing it right. No-brainers mean they messed up.

Plus, what's the point of even having an insight bonus if you're going to put it on the same item as the primary stat? Just get rid of insight bonuses and make it a +16 wisdom item.

Yes it is an item that every Monk and Cleric and Monk will now try to build around. (obviously oriented for Monks)
I don't see how this is a bad design, its an item that has been missing from the loot tables for far too long.. and comparable to items in this level range.
lets compare to..

Mythic Emerald Gaze for any STR build...
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mythic_Emerald_Gaze
Strength +11
Insightful Strength +4
Intimidate +20
Shatter +12
Insightful Will Save +2
Immunity to Fear
Tendon Slice 8%
Insightful Combat Mastery +5
Upgradeable - Primary Augment (Yellow or Blue Augment Slot)
Upgradeable - Secondary Augment (Green Augment Slot

and low and behold Mythic Emerald Gaze is.. level 27 and BTA..

[Saekee]

Disagree.

My monk will NOT be using these new goggles.

Why, you ask?

Because he uses Epic Litany of the Dead trinket.

So what?

Right now my monk uses Epic Glimpse of the Soul which has +11 WIS, True Seeing and some other stuff. My +3 to WIS is in my docent which I will NOT be giving up because it also has a +3 to CON insight bonus.

If I change out Glimpse of the Soul for the new goggles, I lose True Seeing but gain another 2 to my Wisdom. Since I lose True Seeing, I have to get it back some other way, probably via the Compass trinket which means I lose Litany of the Dead. That means I lose +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom so I'm back where I started Wisdom-score-wise. Not only do I lose the +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom, I lose the +2 Profane bonus to all other stats.

Since I refuse to lose True Seeing, I will NOT be using the new goggles on my monk. The new goggles are NOT NECESSARILY the absolute best in slot item even for monks.

I am guessing you do not have enhanced ki then, or is in the docent? In which case +3 enhanced ki with the new goggles would come in handy?
Note that you argue for having a trinket purely for True seeing which can be remediated by scrolling it--it will last 10 minutes (if it were only 5 minutes, I can understand the issue, but 10min is plenty). +3 ki and +2 MOAR wisdom is very nice...You probably don't need the intercession ward on the Glimpse goggles and the bluff bonus (or whatever the skill bonus of +20 in the Glimpse goggles) there can be put in an augment (a lower bonus but OK).
That said, you already have a setup so I can understand not needing to change it.

[Vellrad]

Yes it is an item that every Monk and Cleric and Monk will now try to build around. (obviously oriented for Monks)
I don't see how this is a bad design, its an item that has been missing from the loot tables for far too long.. and comparable to items in this level range.
lets compare to..

Mythic Emerald Gaze for any STR build...
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mythic_Emerald_Gaze
Strength +11
Insightful Strength +4
Intimidate +20
Shatter +12
Insightful Will Save +2
Immunity to Fear
Tendon Slice 8%
Insightful Combat Mastery +5
Upgradeable - Primary Augment (Yellow or Blue Augment Slot)
Upgradeable - Secondary Augment (Green Augment Slot

and low and behold Mythic Emerald Gaze is.. level 27 and BTA..

Str doesn't counts because divine might.

[JOTMON]

Str doesn't counts because divine might.

Why because those with access to divine might don't get the stacking bonus.. not all STR builds have a Divine might alternative.
There is no Wisdom version of Divine might that Wisdom builds can substitute.
There are a lot of other bonuses on Emerald Gaze that still have a good synergy for STR builds.

Vision of Precision Helm has
Wisdom +12
Insightful Wisdom+4
Enhanced Ki +3
Dazing X
Green Slot and Blue Slot
BTCoA

How is this considered OP compared to Mythic Emerald Gaze.
Its one level higher min level required and BTC.

[Wizza]

Yes it is an item that every Monk and Cleric and Monk will now try to build around. (obviously oriented for Monks)
I don't see how this is a bad design, its an item that has been missing from the loot tables for far too long.. and comparable to items in this level range.
lets compare to..

Mythic Emerald Gaze for any STR build...
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mythic_Emerald_Gaze
Strength +11
Insightful Strength +4
Intimidate +20
Shatter +12
Insightful Will Save +2
Immunity to Fear
Tendon Slice 8%
Insightful Combat Mastery +5
Upgradeable - Primary Augment (Yellow or Blue Augment Slot)
Upgradeable - Secondary Augment (Green Augment Slot

and low and behold Mythic Emerald Gaze is.. level 27 and BTA..

I agree. We get an amazing designed item for str and noone complains, everyone just says "such a good item!".

We get the same exact thing for Wisdom and people call it op.

Either we call them both op or they are both good items.

[Rys]

We basically have that with mythic bonuses now. +2 and +4 mythics rarely drop below EE and aren't available as 20th end rewards.

It sounds like it's not as tiered as previously - you can get the +2 and +4 mythics on EE and very rarely below that level. At least that is the way I understand it.

Yeah, that is true. Better than nothing I guess. Even tho, I would rather have tiered loot where the elite reward is granted. I wanted to smash my head against the table everytime I've got Epic Emerald Gaze in EE VoL. Or does it work differently for U27?

[Steve_Howe]

I agree. We get an amazing designed item for str and noone complains, everyone just says "such a good item!".

We get the same exact thing for Wisdom and people call it op.

Either we call them both op or they are both good items.

I think people just hate Monks.

[slarden]

He wasn't talking about mythic quest items. He was talking about all or nothing raid loot.

That is what I am talking about too. As I understand it mythic versions of raid items will rarely drop below EE. this is very close to all or nothing raid loot.

I think they should step up the drop rate of +2 mythic items on EH and then step up the drop the rate of both +2 and +4 mythic items on EE.

The current design makes EH less compelling if you don't get a meaningful increase in at least the +2 mythic drop rate.

[Cetus]

You were specifically talking about raid loot. As far as i know, these don't yet have mythic versions, just the one. They already have higher drop rates on elite. We're not talking about getting a slightly better version of the item on elite, we're talking about getting the item in any form, at all.

Believe it or not, there are many people playing this game that can never reasonably expect to beat MOD on epic elite. Certainly not often enough to farm it. Are you willing to pay 5000 tp for new packs to make up for all the lost sales from people who don't buy it because they know there is literally no chance to ever get the loot from it?

I will assume then that you think an appropriate droprate for phlogs in thunderholme would be 0% on epic normal, 2% on hard, and 100% on elite?

Before you say that people who can't complete epic elite raids aren't trying hard enough, i'll just say that the belief that anybody can do anything with enough effort is inaccurate. Innate talent is a real thing. If Shaq couldn't make his free throws, i guess he just wasn't trying hard enough right?

First - I think the raid loot does have mythic versions, I was clarifying this earlier.

Second - Whether we talk about raid loot or normal loot, it doesn't matter. My suggestion applies to all loot, and that is to provide loot whose power is proportional to the challenge that was overcome to obtain it.

Third - Higher drop rates is not an incentive, because the rate at which you complete normal versions usually far exceeds the drop rate difference between difficulties. Going back to raid bypass timers here...

Fourth - I call BS on "never being able to beat EE MOD". The fact that you're interested is good, you should hook up with other like minded players and see if you can workout a strategy to beat it. When you do, pulling that EE exclusive shiny will feel that much better. Handing out the same exact gear to EN competent characters and EE competetent characters cheapens the game in my opinion.

So, people have incentive to buy packs - because whatever difficulty they can handle, they'll get appropriately powered loot that may help them advance in power sufficiently to tackle EE.

And this is the nature of the game, you pool your resources together to tackle new content, the loot from which will makes things easier - until the next update comes out. Rinse, repeat.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Disagree.

My monk will NOT be using these new goggles.

Why, you ask?

Because he uses Epic Litany of the Dead trinket.

So what?

Right now my monk uses Epic Glimpse of the Soul which has +11 WIS, True Seeing and some other stuff. My +3 to WIS is in my docent which I will NOT be giving up because it also has a +3 to CON insight bonus.

If I change out Glimpse of the Soul for the new goggles, I lose True Seeing but gain another 2 to my Wisdom. Since I lose True Seeing, I have to get it back some other way, probably via the Compass trinket which means I lose Litany of the Dead. That means I lose +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom so I'm back where I started Wisdom-score-wise. Not only do I lose the +2 Profane bonus to Wisdom, I lose the +2 Profane bonus to all other stats.

Since I refuse to lose True Seeing, I will NOT be using the new goggles on my monk. The new goggles are NOT NECESSARILY the absolute best in slot item even for monks.

Piercing Clarity from gmof?
Dunno what destiny or twists you have in use.

[Steelstar]

First - I think the raid loot does have mythic versions, I was clarifying this earlier.


It does!

[Malusny]

It does!

Two little questions: Does the Ultimatum (Tower shield from the raid ML 28) is supposed to have lower Damage Rating than the Epic Shield of the Demonic Soldier (small shield) and at the same time have the same Shield Bonus (+17)?

This is a shield from the raid, I think that tower shield should have greater bonuses. It is a no match for the Madstone Aegis damage output and I think it should be better. Would you consider to put some changes into that Tower shield (Ultimatum)?

Sincerely,

Malvito.

[Steelstar]

Two little questions: Does the Ultimatum (Tower shield from the raid ML 28) is supposed to have lower Damage Rating than the Epic Shield of the Demonic Soldier (small shield) and at the same time have the same Shield Bonus (+17)?

This is a shield from the raid, I think that tower shield should have greater bonuses. It is a no match for the Madstone Aegis damage output and I think it should be better. Would you consider to put some changes into that Tower shield (Ultimatum)?

Sincerely,

Malvito.

Some tweaks to that shield went into the build hitting Lamannia soon (possibly today), which should address some of that.

[Malusny]

Some tweaks to that shield went into the build hitting Lamannia soon (possibly today), which should address some of that.

Thank you.

[JOTMON]

Some tweaks to that shield went into the build hitting Lamannia soon (possibly today), which should address some of that.

Good to hear. The shield itself looks pretty cool.
Would make a nice skin.. I wonder if I can use a shield skin on an orb...

image hijacked from the DDOWIKI..

http://ddowiki.com/images/Ultimatum_shown.jpg

[sollor]

Any new on the Raid Longsword?

[FestusHood]

It does!

Are there mythic versions of Mark of Death loot?

[Steelstar]

Are there mythic versions of Mark of Death loot?

No, there are not.

[hellowraeith]

Just curious, has there been anything said on the critical range/multiplier of that q-staff?

[FestusHood]

First - I think the raid loot does have mythic versions, I was clarifying this earlier.

Second - Whether we talk about raid loot or normal loot, it doesn't matter. My suggestion applies to all loot, and that is to provide loot whose power is proportional to the challenge that was overcome to obtain it.

Third - Higher drop rates is not an incentive, because the rate at which you complete normal versions usually far exceeds the drop rate difference between difficulties. Going back to raid bypass timers here...

Fourth - I call BS on "never being able to beat EE MOD". The fact that you're interested is good, you should hook up with other like minded players and see if you can workout a strategy to beat it. When you do, pulling that EE exclusive shiny will feel that much better. Handing out the same exact gear to EN competent characters and EE competetent characters cheapens the game in my opinion.

So, people have incentive to buy packs - because whatever difficulty they can handle, they'll get appropriately powered loot that may help them advance in power sufficiently to tackle EE.

And this is the nature of the game, you pool your resources together to tackle new content, the loot from which will makes things easier - until the next update comes out. Rinse, repeat.

If you're talking about adding some relatively small mythic bonuses to higher tiered items i'm not against that. Not differences that corrupt the basic appeal of the item. For example, taking an item that gives a +4 insight stat bonus on elite and giving it a +2 insight bonus on normal would be what i will call 'junkifying' the item.

Since we were talking about Mark of Death, i'm waiting to see any confirmation that mythic versions of those items exist. Absent mythic versions, i don't really see how you keep normal level players from getting the loot apart from making it simply not available to them.

What would you do with something like Thunderforged crafting? How would you keep the good items out of the hands of the helots? Would you make something like good phlogs and bad phlogs, and make the phlogs obtained on lesser dfficulties only capable of making second grade loot? Since the upcoming epic Shroud will likely have some sort of crafting system, this is a relevant question.

As far as completing endgame raids on elite, i get that you probably run with many high end players, and don't really come across a lot of the average players of this game in your play experience. If you did, you might adjust your view that "anybody can complete epic elite MOD". I will continue to play with my friends until either the game or i dies. Nothing is going to make me abandon them. Especially in a game with no real consequences, i will go down with the ship rather than step on their heads to get out.

[pjw]

For me (mainly casters or melee-casters), there's nothing here (epic) that make me think I must have the item. If I still bothered playing a healer, the shield might be nice...but with no lore, it sucks. The focus ring...is OK...but would I grind for it? No.

The raid: gauntlets are OK, I might take off the Epic Fanged Gloves for them (and lose 10% spell cost reduction), but I doubt it. The bracers and cloak look OK -- ever since the dreadful spell pass, spell power and lore in a non-weapon is always nice. And the belt is a useful clicky I guess.

But the real problem with the loot is its ML28. OK, 30 is coming, but the raid loot at least should be ML24. It's raid loot. Give us a reason to grind between eTRs.

IMO, if you can legally enter a quest (or at least a raid) you should be able to use all loot it drops. The Shroud had it right. This philosophy may need to be adjusted for epics since a level 20 can (I think) enter any quest; but 4-6 levels under the base level of the quest seems pretty reasonable to me. And let's face it, this gear is not going to break the level 24 quests any more than a good ED or twist does.

Edit: just to be clear, I have not commented on the melee stuff because I'm not really qualified. But the raid hat does look nice to me. Not nice enough to grind for tho.

[Bloodskittle]

This is the official discussion thread for U27 items in the new round of Lamannia! Yes, we get an official thread this time. :)

Item Updates:


Five more items for the U27 Raid have been created.
The Test Dojo cabinet now contains all U27 items that are in the current build.
Heroic U27 items that had +5 bonuses to individual saves have been bumped to +8
The U27 Khopesh and Greataxe have had their material type changed to Flametouched Iron
Heroic U27 items that had +5 to Ability Scores have been bumped to +6
Resonation and the Lantern Ring no longer replace each other's bonuses
The U27 Buckler is no longer a Small Shield
The Epic Shield of Tireless Aid is now properly made of Densewood


A few other notes for things not in this build:

We're planning on making the Greataxe's crit multiplier x4.
We're planning on making all of the weapons in this pack either Cold Iron or Flametouched Iron.
We're planning on having a Longsword in the Raid, looking something like this:

+13, Improved Banishing, Sovereign Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Armor Piercing 20%, Doublestrike 15%, Red Augment Slot, Orange Augment Slot (Crit Range of 17-20)



May I make a suggestion in regards to the great axe? Widen the Threat range on it, these new weapons have to compete with thunderforged its not gonna do that without a wider crit range.

[Xerio]

Really, save for spell power +150 and the completed effect of mortal fear I don't see much draw toward thunderforged weapons. The combat effects are rather limited being that they're either negative or fire.
A hit die or half less and lacking a powerful effect such as mortal fear still gives named weapons a place. Though I am inclined to agree with someone whom mentioned that the items should be a lower min lv (24-26). The items would get more life for sure.

Static +2d8 elemental or w/e damage is more appealing than 5% chance on hit to do 6-60 fire. Just as ToEE martial crafted weapons lack appeal because all of the additional effects are % trigger/proc on vorpal.

[Saekee]

any changes or updates of these items? Time for a new thread?

[Xerio]

The only change I noticed was the removal of vertigo +2 and replacement with green augment slot on the cloak.

all other items remain as they where

[Steelstar]

A few changes (off the top of my head, a few may have been in the last build):

- The Teleport and FF clickies should now have charges (you'll need a new copy of the item though, ones from previous Lama builds won't work)
- Most of the weapons changed material types, most to Flametouched Iron
- The Greataxe's Superior Force Burst works now
- All the shields had their shield stats adjusted (most of all the Tower Shield)

Things I'm planning to adjust before Live (but aren't on Lamannia):
- Rune Arm charge tier
- Material type/DR bypassing on the Great Crossbow

If there are still any outstanding bugs with the Items you know about, right now is the best time to tell us about them! :)

Thanks!

[gwonbush]

A few changes (off the top of my head, a few may have been in the last build):

- The Teleport and FF clickies should now have charges (you'll need a new copy of the item though, ones from previous Lama builds won't work)
- Most of the weapons changed material types, most to Flametouched Iron
- The Greataxe's Superior Force Burst works now
- All the shields had their shield stats adjusted (most of all the Tower Shield)

Things I'm planning to adjust before Live (but aren't on Lamannia):
- Rune Arm charge tier
- Material type/DR bypassing on the Great Crossbow

If there are still any outstanding bugs with the Items you know about, right now is the best time to tell us about them! :)

Thanks!

The Greataxe and Khopesh do not bypass good DR despite being made of Flametouched Iron.

[legendkilleroll]

i realize it probably to late now to make major changes

Just dont think the raid belt stacks up to the other items, 12 int yes great but being a raid item and seems people get most items from 20th i just think it needs something else

Dissolution too, i dont play casters much but think acid lore should be higher

Then the other epic items that have insightful saves, neck has +2 will and raid trinket +3 fort, some items have determined or quality bonus which are new, why do these have insight? which if you care about saves will most likely have parrying type item.

[Wipey]

Countenance has 5 spell pen, supposed to have 6.
Ultimatum still has low ish damage dice ?

[Thar]

Why don't new Stormreach raids have commendations of heroism and continue that upgrade path? too hard to upgrade items now that no one runs citw and few run fot anymore.

[Aelonwy]

Why don't new Stormreach raids have commendations of heroism and continue that upgrade path? too hard to upgrade items now that no one runs citw and few run fot anymore.

I'll second that, there needs to be more places or methods to acquire Commendations of Heroism. Otherwise its just another abandoned system. Please stop abandoning past systems it makes it much less savory for me to participate in new systems.

[Steelstar]

Countenance has 5 spell pen, supposed to have 6.
Ultimatum still has low ish damage dice ?

Noted on the Spell Pen. Fixing.

3d10+12 is low? Trying to find a shield with higher average damage from its direct dice.

[CeltEireson]

May I make a suggestion in regards to the great axe? Widen the Threat range on it, these new weapons have to compete with thunderforged its not gonna do that without a wider crit range.

The axe isn't a raid item, so it shouldn't be competing with raid items or at least tier 3 ones. And as far as I can see it should certainly compete with tier 2 greataxes. Particularly against outsiders.

[Rhysem]

If there are still any outstanding bugs with the Items you know about, right now is the best time to tell us about them! :)

How about dropping in the Enlightened Spirit thread and either acknowledging concerns or telling people its going live and to deal with it? There's been a lot of good suggestions about how to NOT nerf pure 20 warlocks while reigning in the 5 warlock ES splashes.

Its like monks before PRR/MRR all over again... Well except the other two trees are still win.

[Steve_Howe]

3d10+12 is low? Trying to find a shield with higher average damage from its direct dice.

As far as I can tell, it's the best direct damaging shield in the game.

[CeltEireson]

Noted on the Spell Pen. Fixing.

3d10+12 is low? Trying to find a shield with higher average damage from its direct dice.

Closest seems to be epic madstone Aegis with 2(2d10) + 7

[CeltEireson]

Noted on the Spell Pen. Fixing.

3d10+12 is low? Trying to find a shield with higher average damage from its direct dice.

Closest seems to be epic madstone Aegis with 2(2d10) + 7 - though it doesn't have an expanded crit range as some shields do.

[Xerio]

How about dropping in the Enlightened Spirit thread and either acknowledging concerns or telling people its going live and to deal with it? There's been a lot of good suggestions about how to NOT nerf pure 20 warlocks while reigning in the 5 warlock ES splashes.

Its like monks before PRR/MRR all over again... Well except the other two trees are still win.

^ this.. the changes on lamannia with the still dominant bug of casting any spell other than bursts when using aura makes the ES warlock a joke at best.
Casting a spell/scroll for whatever reason has been negating all spell power items and causing a negative effect on the damage.

switching to focus blast is the best DPS for rednamed on a warlock, hands down, regardless of tree focus.
Chain shape is the best AE clear for a warlock, with no limit to the link of the chain and the range being huge. Coupled with the fact that it triggers off objects. no contest.

Review the suggestions posted at the very least do us the privilege of saying no

[Wipey]

3d10+12 is low? Trying to find a shield with higher average damage from its direct dice.



PDK
2.50[2d6] + 8 = 25.5
19-20x2


aegis
2[2d10] + 8 = 30
20x3


ultimatum
[3d10] +12 = 28.5
20x2


stone wall
[2d10] + 10 = 21
19-20x2



Petrification immunity is awesome for Wgu and Mod, DR bypass okay, but it could use a little more. It's worse than PDK and FoT shield if I am not wrong ( which is perfectly possible :D)

[cru121]

bugs:

the following items are from Flametouched Iron but don't deal Good damage:
- heroic staff
- heroic/epic shuriken
- heroic/epic axe
- heroic/epic khopesh

rod of mythant is cold iron but does not break cold iron DR (heroic/epic)


if you still had time and wanted to read some feedback:
heroic: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/462959-U27-Items-Official-Discussion-Round-2?p=5652594&viewfull=1#post5652594
epic: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/462750-U27-Loot-thread-%28unofficial%29?p=5650307#post5650307

[Portalcat]

i realize it probably to late now to make major changes

Just dont think the raid belt stacks up to the other items, 12 int yes great but being a raid item and seems people get most items from 20th i just think it needs something else

*sigh*

Back to the days where the must-slot max INT item literally only provides an extra point of INT, but hey you have to slot it anyway.

It's even a teleport clicky which means nothing to the Wizards slotting it but ensures that people won't pass it in the chest.

[Steve_Howe]

PDK
2.50[2d6] + 8 = 28.05
19-20x2


aegis
2[2d10] + 8 = 31.9
20x3


ultimatum
[3d10] +12 = 29.93
20x2


stone wall
[2d10] + 10 = 23.10
19-20x2



Petrification immunity is awesome for Wgu and Mod, DR bypass okay, but it could use a little more. It's worse than PDK and FoT shield if I am not wrong ( which is perfectly possible :D)

I fixed your chart using the Base Damage Rating numbers from the shields themselves.

Madstone Aegis does indeed come out in first place.

Ultimatum is second best but not by much.


I agree...Ultimatum's direct damage should be boosted. It is raid loot after all.

[CeltEireson]

I fixed your chart using the Base Damage Rating numbers from the shields themselves.

Madstone Aegis does indeed come out in first place.

Ultimatum, however, is second best.


I agree...Ultimatum's direct damage should be boosted. It is raid loot after all.

Or just increase the crit range by 1 - lot of shields have that.

But to be fair - Madsonte Aegis only has bashing as additional damage over and above the base, whereas Ultimatum not only has the bashing but also bypasses most DR and has holy VII as well as a red augment slot - so in terms of damage its still a good bit better overall. Not to mention the other benefits - +5 insightful sheltering and a blue augment.

[cru121]

I ruined your chart using the Base Damage Rating numbers from the shields themselves.
FTFY. Base Damage Rating is a trap.

[Steve_Howe]

FTFY. Base Damage Rating is a trap.

Oh?

[Steelstar]

A more detailed list of changes, after some work today:

- New item effects should show up correctly in the Effects Channel now.
- All of the new weapons should have Flametouched Iron effects properly now (except the Longsword, which is Cold Iron). This includes the Material Type and the proper damage bypassing (which is missing in the current Lamannia).
- Heroic Rune Arm should go up to Charge Tier 5 now (It was only going up to 4 before).
- The Epic version shouldn't bug out when trying to fire the max charge anymore
- Improved durability and hardness on the Quarterstaff
- Fixed Spell Pen VI, which was only giving the Tier 5 spell pen.
- The Epic shuriken now gives Deadly XI instead of IX (hooray for Roman Numerals).

[DrawingGuy]

PDK
2.50[2d6] + 8 = 25.5
19-20x2


aegis
2[2d10] + 8 = 30
20x3


ultimatum
[3d10] +12 = 28.5
20x2


stone wall
[2d10] + 10 = 21
19-20x2



Petrification immunity is awesome for Wgu and Mod, DR bypass okay, but it could use a little more. It's worse than PDK and FoT shield if I am not wrong ( which is perfectly possible :D)

Why is everyone not counting the Vanguard x[W] bonuses from cores and moves? That would actually push base damage ahead. Add in DR breaking and Holy proc damage, and this shield is definitely not just "second best", it is the best basher. Ultimatum doesn't need to be pushed even farther ahead - I prefer it to be a bit closer. PDK is a solid basher and saves you the need of slotting CON and CHA and is better at blocking magic with absorbs and orb bonus. Aegis is a bit better at bashing and saves the need of Tower Shield feat. Ultimatum is the best basher and has desirable bonuses, but is not so far ahead as to be the be-all-end-all. Any addition to the multipliers, crit range, or x[W] would shoot this shield into that category. Though if that is the dev's goal as it is a level 28, well I guess that's one way they can do that.

[KielbasaBeta]

*sigh*

Back to the days where the must-slot max INT item literally only provides an extra point of INT, but hey you have to slot it anyway.

It's even a teleport clicky which means nothing to the Wizards slotting it but ensures that people won't pass it in the chest.

The item is clearly intended for Harper or rogue mechanic based characters which is ok. Not every int item needs be a wizard item.

[legendkilleroll]

The item is clearly intended for Harper or rogue mechanic based characters which is ok. Not every int item needs be a wizard item.

Clearly intended? Because it has a clicky anyone can scroll, doesn't offer anything to my mechanic expect 1 extra int

[Grailhawk]

Oh?

base damage rating has flaws the biggest one being it doesn't factor in the automatic miss chance on a roll of 1. Base damage rating is trying to factor crits into its calculation which is does an ok job of but since its averaging out damage across all rolls of the d20 it should set a roll of 1 = to 0 but doesn't.

For that reason (and others its not that good a number) the original number in the post presented a more accurate number (average damage on a hit with out crits).

[Maudib_360]

If there are still any outstanding bugs with the Items you know about, right now is the best time to tell us about them! :)


Not really about update 27 items, but could you take a look at the minimum levels on the epic docents from ToEE? They are still ML 28 while the rest of the epic loot is ML 26.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

since there seems to be communication in this thread again, id like to refer steel to my previous post where i have some concerns about the new boots.

tldr: drop +2 trip, add speed 15.

[Cetus]

If you're talking about adding some relatively small mythic bonuses to higher tiered items i'm not against that. Not differences that corrupt the basic appeal of the item. For example, taking an item that gives a +4 insight stat bonus on elite and giving it a +2 insight bonus on normal would be what i will call 'junkifying' the item.

Agreed - small gains are preferred


Since we were talking about Mark of Death, i'm waiting to see any confirmation that mythic versions of those items exist. Absent mythic versions, i don't really see how you keep normal level players from getting the loot apart from making it simply not available to them.

It's unlikely that MOD has mythic versions, all the loot was essentially handed out to anyone willing to run normals til their 20th's.


What would you do with something like Thunderforged crafting? How would you keep the good items out of the hands of the helots? Would you make something like good phlogs and bad phlogs, and make the phlogs obtained on lesser dfficulties only capable of making second grade loot? Since the upcoming epic Shroud will likely have some sort of crafting system, this is a relevant question.

Pretty simple - add ingredients that only drop on EE which would yield an additional tier of incremental gain to your weapon. I don't know, say it adds .5W or something, or +10 spellpower.


As far as completing endgame raids on elite, i get that you probably run with many high end players, and don't really come across a lot of the average players of this game in your play experience. If you did, you might adjust your view that "anybody can complete epic elite MOD". I will continue to play with my friends until either the game or i dies. Nothing is going to make me abandon them. Especially in a game with no real consequences, i will go down with the ship rather than step on their heads to get out.

I think you misunderstood my suggestion. By no means am I saying that you should abandon your friends. But by the sounds of it, it isn't a full raids group worth of people, is it? If not, then the remaining slots can consist of new like-minded players with who you can tackle EE MOD. From my point of view, it should be fun to get your asses handed to you until you figure out a way to beat something. And when you finally do, to be appropriately rewarded for your efforts feels good. That's how I look at it, anyway.

[Blackheartox]

I dont know if anyone asked, but are we getting 6-7 tomes in this new pack from the raid at least or is that specific only for temple of ee?

[Steve_Howe]

I dont know if anyone asked, but are we getting 6-7 tomes in this new pack from the raid at least or is that specific only for temple of ee?

It was asked here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/463177-Update-27-Preview!?p=5655629&viewfull=1#post5655629

You'll have to watch the video for the question.

[Steelstar]

I dont know if anyone asked, but are we getting 6-7 tomes in this new pack from the raid at least or is that specific only for temple of ee?

Yes, 6-7 Tomes will drop in the Raid on Epic Elite, at about the same rarity as Epic Elite TOEE.

[FestusHood]

I think you misunderstood my suggestion. By no means am I saying that you should abandon your friends. But by the sounds of it, it isn't a full raids group worth of people, is it? If not, then the remaining slots can consist of new like-minded players with who you can tackle EE MOD. From my point of view, it should be fun to get your asses handed to you until you figure out a way to beat something. And when you finally do, to be appropriately rewarded for your efforts feels good. That's how I look at it, anyway.

The lack of people is specifically for the MOd raid. We've had much more success filling for the Thunderhome raids, even having to turn people away. To show how casual some of our people are, one of the main hindrances to filling the MOD raid is flagging. Yes, many of our people have not completed that chain even a single time. Thunderholme raids can be flagged for in minutes, even after the raid party has been set up.

For our bunch, doing the summit raid on normal is an appropriate difficulty. We may be able to step it up to hard, but i would estimate our chance of completion to be very low on that difficulty. Elite is out of the question. That would cross the line from challenge to futility for our group.

[FestusHood]

I had an idea for a loot effect that i don't think i have seen mentioned before. Most appropriate for boots.

Hamstring immunity.

A regenerating restoration clicky might be nice sometime too.

[Cetus]

The lack of people is specifically for the MOd raid. We've had much more success filling for the Thunderhome raids, even having to turn people away. To show how casual some of our people are, one of the main hindrances to filling the MOD raid is flagging. Yes, many of our people have not completed that chain even a single time. Thunderholme raids can be flagged for in minutes, even after the raid party has been set up.

For our bunch, doing the summit raid on normal is an appropriate difficulty. We may be able to step it up to hard, but i would estimate our chance of completion to be very low on that difficulty. Elite is out of the question. That would cross the line from challenge to futility for our group.

I see. Well, then you guys are simply at the EN/EH level. There's nothing wrong with that, this is why there's a difficulty spectrum.

But with the loot, wouldn't you think it's reasonable that for your skill level, there are some items out there that are simply beyond your reach? Unless you figure out a way to tackle that EE peaks or that EE MOD flagging chain, of course. The EE setting is simply a different world out there for you guys, you shouldn't be affected at all by the existence of gear that is appropriate to those who manage to overcome it.

To put it another way, given that you just said "elite is out of the question", do you still feel like you should have the same exact gear as those who do beat it? Or should you have gear that is of lower calibre but still an upgrade for your level of play?

[FestusHood]

I see. Well, then you guys are simply at the EN/EH level. There's nothing wrong with that, this is why there's a difficulty spectrum.

But with the loot, wouldn't you think it's reasonable that for your skill level, there are some items out there that are simply beyond your reach? Unless you figure out a way to tackle that EE peaks or that EE MOD flagging chain, of course. The EE setting is simply a different world out there for you guys, you shouldn't be affected at all by the existence of gear that is appropriate to those who manage to overcome it.

To put it another way, given that you just said "elite is out of the question", do you still feel like you should have the same exact gear as those who do beat it? Or should you have gear that is of lower calibre but still an upgrade for your level of play?

Those same 5 or 6 people that we can gather to give mod a go are perfectly capable of completing most quests on epic elite. The level 30 raids are much more difficult.

Since we were specifically discussing mod, then if the entire loot design was different, including subtly better mythic versions, then yes i would be fine with that. Since they were not designed that way, it will have to be the way it is.

You must differentiate between people who are capable of running elite choosing to run normal.becuase they are what? Lazy? They are different from people who simply can't complete them on higher difficulties regardless of effort. In an earlier post you said that you yourself had gained most of your mod gear by running on epic normal.

[pjw]

On the Raid gloves: Remove spellcraft 20 and Quality spell focus, add 'Arcane Lore XV'.