Archmage Pass

[nibel]

Archmages are supposed to be the mighty mages that specializes so much into a single school that they get a lot of extra tricks for them. Ideally, a specialist Archmage should be the king of DC casting in their chosen school. That was the case before the enhancement pass (Except for Necromancy, because we have a MORE specialized tree for that), but it is no longer true. My intention is to fix that.

Basically, the changes is moving the SLA to a enhancement line in the left column, and create new cores and T5.

As always, feedback is appreciated.

Core Enhancements

(Level 1) Archmage Specialization: Select a spell school. Spells of this school cost 1 less SP to cast per core enhancement you take (Minimum 0). Passive: You get +1 Universal Spell Power per point spent on this tree.
(Level 3) Arcane Bolt: You gain Arcane Bolt as an Spell-Like Ability (Cost: 2 SP, Cooldown: 3 Seconds). It is considered a level 2 spell. It no longer has a save for half damage.
(Level 6) School Mastery: Spells from your chosen school get a +1 bonus to their DC, and:

Abjuration: You are permanently under the effects of Mage Armor (http://ddowiki.com/page/Mage_Armor).
Conjuration: 10% faster casting time for conjuration spells only.
Enchantment: +2 to Spell Penetration for enchantment spells only.
Evocation: +1 Caster Level and Maximum Caster Level for evocation spells only.
Illusion: You are permanently under the effects of Dusk (http://ddowiki.com/page/Dusk_(enchantment)) (10% concealment miss chance)
Necromancy: You gain +10 HP.
Transmutation: You are permanently under the effects of Expeditious Retreat (http://ddowiki.com/page/Expeditious_Retreat).

(Level 12) Arcane Blast: You gain Arcane Blast as an Spell-Like Ability (Cost: 6 SP, Cooldown: 5 seconds). It is considered a level 4 spell. Reflex for half damage (can be Heightened).
(Level 18) Spell Knowledge: You gain +100 Spell Points and +1 DC with all your spells.
(Level 20) Master of Magic: +2 Intelligence, +5 Spellcraft, and all metamagic feats cost 1 fewer spell point to use. (same as live)


Tier 1


Archmage Studies: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 1)
Subtle Spellcasting: As live
Energy of the Scholar: As live
Spell Critical: As live
Wand and Scroll Mastery: As live


Tier 2


Archmage Studies II: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 3). Requires Archmage Studies I.
Efficient Metamagic: As live, but only two enhancements in parallel.
Spell Critical: As live
Traditionalist Caster: As live, moved from Tier 1


Tier 3


Archmage Studies III: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 6). Requires Archmage Studies II and Spell Focus on that School.
Efficient Metamagic: As live, the third one moved to Tier 3.
Spell Penetration: As live
Spell Critical: As live
Intelligence


Tier 4


Archmage Studies IV: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 6). Requires Archmage Studies III and Greater Spell Focus on that school.
Efficient Heighten: As live
School Mastery: As live
Spell Critical: As live
Intelligence


Tier 5


Archmage Studies V: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 6) and +1 DC on your chosen school. Requires Archmage Studies IV.
Archmage Dilettante Studies: (2 AP) Select an SLA not from your main school. Requires Spell Focus on that school. Passive: +1 DC on that school.

Abjuration: Resist Energy.
Conjuration: Web
Enchantment: Otto's Resistible Dancing
Evocation: Chain Missile
Illusion: Displacement
Necromancy: Halt Undead
Transmutation: Haste

Arcane Mastery: (2 AP) +1 DC to all spells. Requires School Mastery
Arcane Supremacy: As live
Permanency: (2 AP) You lose 100 Maximum Spell Points. Toggle: You are always under the effect of the following spell of your chosen school:

Abjuration: Freedom of Movement
Conjuration: Lesser Vigor
Enchantment: Greater Heroism
Evocation: Wind Wall (basically, Deflect Arrows feat)
Illusion: Lesser Displacement (http://ddowiki.com/page/Lesser_Displacement)
Necromancy: Lesser Death Aura
Transmutation: Water Breathing



Thanks for Requiro to suggest me to put +1 DC on the T5 SLAs.

[Vellrad]

Bolt/blast should be different depending on chosen school, I mean, still 1d6/level force damage, but its called Abjuring Blast or Necromantic Blast, etc. but is considered to be your chosen school, so it procs aprioprate debuffs, used its DC etc.

[TackW5]

By moving the SLAs from the cores to the Tiers, you are giving people early access to spells. For example, the current Core 6 SLAs are level 3 spells, meaning you need Wiz 5 to take them. You have moved these to T3, meaning a level 3 wiz can get them. Splashing 3 Wiz for cheap haste or displacement SLAs before you can even cast the spell seems off. Some of the T4, which I think are the former core 12, SLAs are even more precarious. A 4 Wiz with phantasmal killer? Ouch.

As to permanency, the chosen spells seem redundant or strange, aside from FoM. If I am an illusionist, for example, I likely have displacement as an SLA already, and it is dirt cheap (or free, if the Core 1 discount works on SLAs). Why would I care to have Lesser Displacement permanently? Similarly, you are concerned perma-haste is too powerful, but if I have gone Transmutation, I likely have it as a cheap SLA already. I suppose a multiclasser might like Thundering Armor, but my wizzies generally prefer to not be hit. Lesser Death Aura is more a Necromancer thing, and I am not going to lose T5 in that tree to get it here.

[nibel]

Bolt/blast should be different depending on chosen school, I mean, still 1d6/level force damage, but its called Abjuring Blast or Necromantic Blast, etc. but is considered to be your chosen school, so it procs aprioprate debuffs, used its DC etc.

Idea is interesting, but that would require the devs to create fourteen new "arcane bolt/blast" spells behind the scenes. I'm not sure if we can come with decent debuffs for each one. Unless you are talking like Magister/DI debuffs. In this case, current Arcane Bolt/Blast are considered Universal spells, like PnP Detect Magic.

And since I removed the save from Arcane Bolt, the level limitation is mostly for "mantle of invulnerability"-like stuff.


By moving the SLAs from the cores to the Tiers, you are giving people early access to spells. For example, the current Core 6 SLAs are level 3 spells, meaning you need Wiz 5 to take them. You have moved these to T3, meaning a level 3 wiz can get them.

Not by much. Getting a T2 spells requires at least 7 AP, which means you should basically be level 3 anyway. A T3 spell requires 12 AP, meaning access at almost level 4. A T4 requires 22 AP, which is level 6. All of those are one level below the requires Wiz level, which makes sense for a school specialist to acquire before a standard wizard.


Splashing 3 Wiz for cheap haste or displacement SLAs before you can even cast the spell seems off. Some of the T4, which I think are the former core 12, SLAs are even more precarious. A 4 Wiz with phantasmal killer? Ouch.

T4 requires level 6 for the 22 AP requirement.

For splashes, remember that you will cast with a lower caster level. This means shorter Hastes, fewer Chain Missiles, and capped effectiveness of Heighten and Spell Resistance checks. Also the (Greater) Spell Focus should limit splash acessibility as well, since the best SLAs are in schools with subpar benefits from those schools, like Transmutation.


As to permanency, the chosen spells seem redundant or strange, aside from FoM.

Mostly, I tried to balance those with school accessibility, Level 6 Core, and the SLAs you receive. For instance, Abjuration have the weakest effects in the SLA, and benefit the least from the school DC (only spell that benefits is Dismissal/Banishment, and those are limited). Thus, their Permanency effect is intended to be more powerful.

Enchantment I thought about going with standard Heroism, then I remembered my experience running an enchantment specialist post-MotU: Basically, the only things I used from the tree was the cheap Hypno. Otto I had a no-resist version as a level 8 spell, that unless I was running something underlevel, was required for the no-fail aspect. Hold Person is redundant with Hold Monster, which you always prefer to cast Mass Hold Monster for efficiency. And don't let me start with how Epic Ward interact with Charm spells. So, basically it boils down to "weak SLA", which means a powerful Permanency effect. So, GH was set.

Evocation I had basically two choices: Fire Shield or Thundering Armor. Since they get Fire Shield as an SLA, Thundering Armor it is. Sure, I could get Tenser as well, but that is already a toggle in the EK tree, and seems more focused on the gish template that EK enforces, instead of the specialist caster template on Archmage.

Illusion is at an odd place because we only have seven Illusion spells in the whole game, so illusion effects are kinda limited. Permanent Displacement would make the SLA useless (since it is self-cast only), and permanent Invisibility is too powerful. I thought about permanent Shadow Walk, but most people I know don't like how the spell severely limits your sight range.

Necromancy is a small effect, but it is constant damage for nearby enemies, which can proc spell stuff. If you have some undead form (from a small investment in PM), it is basically a permanent fast healing, like the Conjuration Permanency effect. Sure, Death Aura is stronger, But it is too strong to be on a permanent effect, and it would make the Conjuration/healing effect unbalanced in comparison.

Transmutation, as you pointed out, have Haste and Knock, two very useful spells. Thus, they have a weaker Permanency effect.

[fmalfeas]

Evocation could actually go a different route. There's evoc spells in tabletop that blow away incoming projectiles from you. They aren't in DDO, but deflect arrows /is/. So, simply name it 'Wind Ward', and make it (due to being T5) the Vanguard/Tempest grade of Deflect Arrows. Hard to peg someone with an arrow when all the elements in their most forceful forms bend to their will.

[nibel]

Evocation could actually go a different route. There's evoc spells in tabletop that blow away incoming projectiles from you. They aren't in DDO, but deflect arrows /is/. So, simply name it 'Wind Ward', and make it (due to being T5) the Vanguard/Tempest grade of Deflect Arrows. Hard to peg someone with an arrow when all the elements in their most forceful forms bend to their will.

That is a good suggestion. I forgot about Wind Wall being an Evocation spell. Changing OP right now.

[FranOhmsford]

Abjurer Dilletante is ludicrously weak for a Tier 5!

Abjurer Permanency is also not as strong as you make out as Perma FoM is available on multiple items and it's one spell that a Cleric/FvS/Bard/Ranger or Druid will usually be happy to cast on you if asked.


How about for the Dilletante: Stoneskin

And for the Permanency: Spell Resistance {Goes higher than items}

[the_one_dwarfforged]

this doesnt seem like it would make flaeshies less comprehensively sucky compared to undead.

it does seem like a request for permabuffs, which honestly is pretty gimp considering you can get most/all of the good personal buffs you need in the game from items.

not an appealing suggestion.

[nibel]

this doesnt seem like it would make flaeshies less comprehensively sucky compared to undead.

I tried to argue about how would be the best way to nerf Lich form. The replies were not amusing (http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/460976), so I'm trying the other way around.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

I tried to argue about how would be the best way to nerf Lich form. The replies were not amusing (http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/460976), so I'm trying the other way around.

the issue with lich form vs am is that it gives you all around better dcs. it does not need to be nerfed for two reasons. with the prerequisite effort dc casting on a wiz is, afaik, working well currently without being too strong. getting those dcs from lich form though, has a cost in the form of having to be an undead. imo that is a penalty because id rather heal via positive energy, or at least be able to be healed by positive energy at a reduced rate.

to make am more equal to undead, the dcs need to be competitive. no nerfing of undead or any of this other **** needed.

[nibel]

to make am more equal to undead, the dcs need to be competitive. no nerfing of undead or any of this other **** needed.

I did that. Current AM have +4 Int and +2 School DC (and +1 secondary school DC) versus PM +8 Int and +2 Necro

My proposition changes AM to +4 Int, +2 Universal DC and +2 school DC. It have the same +DC potential as a Lich, with the extra +2 DC to any school instead of only necro.

[General_Gronker]

Archmages are supposed to be the mighty mages that specializes so much into a single school that they get a lot of extra tricks for them.

Nope. The Archmage should be based on, well, the archmage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm)

Specifically



Spells per Day/Spells Known
When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.

High Arcana
An archmage gains the opportunity to select a special ability from among those described below by permanently eliminating one existing spell slot (she cannot eliminate a spell slot of higher level than the highest-level spell she can cast). Each special ability has a minimum required spell slot level, as specified in its description.

An archmage may choose to eliminate a spell slot of a higher level than that required to gain a type of high arcana.

Arcane Fire (Su)
The archmage gains the ability to change arcane spell energy into arcane fire, manifesting it as a bolt of raw magical energy. The bolt is a ranged touch attack with long range (400 feet + 40 feet/level of archmage) that deals 1d6 points of damage per class level of the archmage plus 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell used to create the effect. This ability costs one 9th-level spell slot.

Arcane Reach (Su)
The archmage can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away. The archmage must make a ranged touch attack. Arcane reach can be selected a second time as a special ability, in which case the range increases to 60 feet. This ability costs one 7th-level spell slot.

Mastery of Counterspelling
When the archmage counterspells a spell, it is turned back upon the caster as if it were fully affected by a spell turning spell. If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning, then it is merely counterspelled. This ability costs one 7th-level spell slot.

Mastery of Elements
The archmage can alter an arcane spell when cast so that it utilizes a different element from the one it normally uses. This ability can only alter a spell with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic descriptor. The spell’s casting time is unaffected. The caster decides whether to alter the spell’s energy type and chooses the new energy type when he begins casting. This ability costs one 8th-level spell slot.

Mastery of Shaping
The archmage can alter area and effect spells that use one of the following shapes: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. Furthermore, any shapeable spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet. This ability costs one 6th-level spell slot.

Spell Power
This ability increases the archmage’s effective caster level by +1 (for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and caster level checks only). This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.

Spell-Like Ability
An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.

The spell-like ability normally uses a spell slot of the spell’s level, although the archmage can choose to make a spell modified by a metamagic feat into a spell-like ability at the appropriate spell level.

The archmage may use an available higher-level spell slot in order to use the spell-like ability more often. Using a slot three levels higher than the chosen spell allows her to use the spell-like ability four times per day, and a slot six levels higher lets her use it six times per day.

If spell-like ability is selected more than one time as a high arcana choice, this ability can apply to the same spell chosen the first time (increasing the number of times per day it can be used) or to a different spell.


Anything else is just perpetuating a mistake that should not have been made in the first place.

[Vellrad]

Nope. The Archmage should be based on, well, the archmage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm)

Specifically



Anything else is just perpetuating a mistake that should not have been made in the first place.

To me, archmage in DDO looks like red wizard.

[Requiro]

The main problem with your idea is that it still made better Lich Pale Master then AM. On PM tree you only need about 45 AP points. The rest you can put in AM. And then in Lich form, with AM Core 18, you get most DC that every other Wizard can get.

Lich (2 INT = +1 DC) + Archlich (2 INT = +1 DC) + Capstone (2 INT = +1 DC) + AM Core 18 (+1 DC) = +4 Universal DC
AM Core 6 (+1 School DC) + School Mastery (+1 School DC) = +2 School DC

Thus in ArchLich Form:
Every school = +4 DC
Necromancy = +6 DC
School = +6 DC (or Necromancy +8 DC)

vs

Archmage: Arcane Mastery (+1 DC) + Capstone (2 INT = +1 DC) + AM Core 18 (+1 DC) = +3 Universal DC
AM Core 6 (+1 School DC) + School Mastery (+1 School DC) + = +2 School DC
Thus without Lich:
Every school = +3 DC
School = +5 DC

Conclusion: Archlich is still superior to Archmage. This is not a good improvment.

Below are my comments and suggestion to your idea (in red):


(...)

Core Enhancements

(Level 1) Archmage Specialization: Select a spell school. Spells of this school cost 1 less SP to cast per core enhancement you take
(Minimum 0). Passive: You get +1 Universal Spell Power per point spent on this tree.

This mean with Core 4 (Level 12) you have some 1st level spells for free. This is intentional? And with Capstone, some 2nd level spell 0 SP cost…
Suggestion: 1 less SP per 2 core enhancement. Thus on Core 1,6,18 = -3 less SP.

(Level 3) Arcane Bolt: You gain Arcane Bolt as an Spell-Like Ability (Cost: 2 SP, Cooldown: 3 Seconds). It is considered a level 2 spell. It no longer has a save for half damage.
(Level 6) Archmage Knowledge: You gain 50 SP, +2 DC to save against spell from you chosen school, and you choice one of the benefit:

You are permanently under the effects of Mage Armor (http://ddowiki.com/page/Mage_Armor)(+4 Armor AC, protection from MM).
You are permanently under the effects of Dusk (http://ddowiki.com/page/Dusk_(enchantment)) (10% concealment miss chance).
You are permanently under the effects of Expeditious Retreat (http://ddowiki.com/page/Expeditious_Retreat)(+25% run speed).
5% faster casting time
+2 to Spell Penetration / Every 10 Wizard levels
+1 Caster Level and Maximum Caster Level / every 10 Wizards levels
You gain +2 HP / level.

(Level 12) Arcane Blast: You gain Arcane Blast as an Spell-Like Ability (Cost: 6 SP, Cooldown: 5 seconds). It is considered a level 4 spell. No save
(Level 18) Archmage Knowlage: Spells from your chosen school get a +1 bonus to their DC, and you choice 2nd benefit not taken in Core 6

(Level 20) Master of Magic: +2 Intelligence, +5 Spellcraft, 50 SP and all metamagic feats cost 1 fewer spell point to use. Additional Base cost of School Spells are reduce by 2 SP


Tier 1


Archmage Studies: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 1)
Subtle Spellcasting: As live
Energy of the Scholar: As live
Spell Critical: As live
Wand and Scroll Mastery: As live


Tier 2


Archmage Studies II: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 3). Requires Archmage Studies I and Wizard level 2
Efficient Metamagic: As live, but only two enhancements in parallel.
Spell Critical: As live
Traditionalist Caster: As live, moved from Tier 1


Tier 3


Archmage Studies III: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 6). Requires Archmage Studies II, Spell Focus on that School and Wizard level 4
Efficient Metamagic: As live, the third one moved to Tier 3.
Spell Penetration: As live
Spell Critical: As live
Intellicenge


Tier 4


Archmage Studies IV: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 12). Requires Archmage Studies III, Greater Spell Focus on that school and Wizard level 6
Efficient Heighten: As live
School Mastery: As live
Spell Critical: As live
Intelligence


Tier 5


Archmage Studies V: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 18) and Passive: +1 to your DC school. Requires Archmage Studies IV and Wizard level 8
Archmage Dilettante Studies: (2/2 AP): Requires Arcane Mastery

1st rank: You gain +1 DC to other school. Require Spell Focus on that school
2nd rank: You can choice any 1-3 level wizard spell that will work as SL-a, with 2x longer cooldown, and half SP cost. Metamagic for free.

Arcane Mastery: (2 AP) +1 DC to all spells. Requires School Mastery and Spell Focus other then main School
Arcane Supremacy: As live
Permanency: (2 AP) Toogle: 100 SP cost: You are under the effect of the following spell of your chosen school and gain +2 INT:

Abjuration: Freedom of Movement
Conjuration: Lesser Vigor
Enchantment: Greater Heroism
Evocation: Wind Wall (basically, Deflect Arrows feat)
Illusion: Lesser Displacement (http://ddowiki.com/page/Lesser_Displacement) (25% chance to miss)
Necromancy: Lesser Death Aura
Transmutation: Jump, Tumble and Water Breathing



This way you get:

Lich (2 INT = +1 DC) + Archlich (2 INT = +1 DC) + Capstone (2 INT = +1 DC) = +3 Universal DC
AM Core 18 (+1 School DC) + School Mastery (+1 School DC) = +2 School DC

Thus in ArchLich Form:
Every school = +3 DC
Necromancy = +5 DC
School = +5 DC (or Necromancy +7 DC)

vs

Archmage: Arcane Mastery (+1 DC) + Capstone (2 INT = +1 DC) + Permanency (2 INT = +1 DC) = +3 Universal DC
AM Core 18 (+1 School DC) + School Mastery (+1 School DC) + Archmage Studies V (+1 School DC) = +3 School DC
Archmage Dilettante Studies 1st rank (+1 other School DC) = +1 Other school DC

Thus without ArchLich form:
Every school = +3 DC
School = +6 DC
Other school = +4 DC

There will be also new way that we can call: Archmage in Lich form:

Lich (2 INT = +1 DC) + Arcane Mastery (+1 DC) + Capstone (2 INT = +1 DC) + Permanency (2 INT = +1 DC) = +4 Universal DC
AM Core 18 (+1 School DC) + School Mastery (+1 School DC) + Archmage Studies V (+1 School DC) = +3 School DC
Archmage Dilettante Studies 1st rank (+1 other School DC) = +1 Other school DC

Thus with Lich form:
Every school = +4 DC
Necromancy = +5 DC (or +6 with Other School)
School = +7 DC (or Necromancy +8 DC)
Other school = +5 DC

With additional heavy drawback, and AP wise investment

In other word: Lots of choice, and nothing is superior to other.
What do you think?

[nibel]

The main problem with your idea is that it still made better Lich Pale Master then AM. On PM tree you only need about 45 AP points. The rest you can put in AM. And then in Lich form, with AM Core 18, you get most DC that every other Wizard can get.

If you do the same math using the 31 AP that a PM is sinking into Archmage to an Archmage sinking 24 AP on Harper, you get the same +Int as sinking on PM, but without the drawback of being undead, and the DC remains the same (PM can reach higher Necro DC, but that is ok). And you get 7 extra AP to put somewhere else.


This mean with Core 4 (Level 12) you have some 1st level spells for free. This is intentional?

Yes. It is a substitute to current +2 SP per AP on tree, with a flavor twist (You only get discounts on school-based spells). I assume that SLAs are exempt of this, since they already have reduced costs and free metas.

When we have an arcane class that can cast eldritch blasts for free all day, a level 12 wizard casting unlimited unmetaed Magic Missiles is not even on par with that. Oh, yeah. That is only base cost. Metamagics can still raise the value over 0 SP.


Archmage Knowledge: You gain 50 SP, +2 DC to save against spell from you chosen school, and you choice one of the benefit

+2 DC for a core 6? That is too good at a very low tier. Heroic casters do not need that buff (that's why I put the extra DCs at core 18 and T5), and it is low enough to be potentially problematic on some builds.

I don't like your benefits being general options in a tree. I stand that this tree should cater to the school your wizard specializes.


Archmage Dilettante Studies: (2/2 AP): Requires Arcane Mastery
1st rank: You gain +1 DC to other school. Require Spell Focus on that school
2nd rank: You can choice any 1-3 level wizard spell that will work as SL-a, with 2x longer cooldown, and half SP cost. Metamagic for free.

I'm almost sure that you can't make a 2-tiers enhancement have only a 1-tier enhancement as a pre-requisite without messing it out. In U19 beta, Tempest Dance of Death required the full Whirling Blades line (http://ddowiki.com/page/File:TempestTreeBeta.png), but you then could only buy one tier of it because the tier 2 would require the T4 to also have 2 ranks. On live they removed the requisite to allow DoD to stay as a 3-tier enhancement.

Also, I'm not sure if it is possible to allow us to make a multiselector choice only at the second AP. The other way to do that would be making it two enhancements and link it with an arrow. But we are out of spaces on T5, unless I remove something else.

While I like your idea of +1 DC and SLA in separate tiers, I believe they will never come for reasonable technical reasons. On the other hand, since we will be adding +1 DC on the T5 school SLA, I see no reason to not add +1 DC for the same cost in an off-school here as well.


Archmage Studies V: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 18) and Passive: +1 to your DC school. Requires Archmage Studies IV and Wizard level 8

Good call on the +1 School DC. That is a good cherry to be on top of this 10 AP line.

I don't think we should requires Wizard level 8 for that SLA (or others). I explained the reasons why I don't mind giving access to those spells at lower levels a few posts above. But mostly, either a Wiz should specialize all their AP for that (which them makes them a true school specialist, and deserve a cookie), and splashes will hit a ceiling on spell DC and Spell Resistance check for half the T5 SLAs (Banishment, Hold Monster, Flesh to Stone)


Permanency: (2 AP) Toogle: 100 SP cost: You are under the effect of the following spell of your chosen school and gain +2 INT

I didn't put a SP cost on the Toggle on purpose, because like Undead forms, they are supposed to be on all the time anyway, and once you rest, the cost is irrelevant. I put them as a toggle instead of an always-on thing mostly because of the Feather Fall thing in Transmutation. Changing it to Water Breathing is interesting (might even be worth trading Jump to Merfolk's, since Transmutation Archmages will have Jump as an SLA anyway), and then I might just made the bonus permanent and removing the toggle at all.

The +2 Int is overpowered. You usually spend 2 AP for +1 stat, not 2 AP for +2 stat and extra stuff. I know many people miss the +2 Int from Arcane Supremacy, but my intention on the balance is to make AM balanced with PM (Ie, a "PM only all AP sinked on it" and an "AM only, all AP sinked on it" to have the same DC on their main school and off-schools), making that extra Int unnecessary. Sure, a PM will probably get some extra stuff from the AM tree, just like the AM can dabble 11 AP for Vampire form and +1 Enchant DC.

[Requiro]

(...) my intention on the balance is to make AM balanced with PM (Ie, a "PM only all AP sinked on it" and an "AM only, all AP sinked on it" to have the same DC on their main school and off-schools)(...)

Well… You can say it, at the beginning… In current state of DDO, there is no “pure” Archmage or PaleMaster, so you made that suggestion not for reality.

The unbalance is, that ArchLich do not take ANY drawback from Archmage tree, while Archmage, if what something from PaleMaster tree is force to take undead form for any real advantage. With your suggestion it’s going even deeper.

If that was your intention, that all I can say is: Good work, but "NO" for implementation.

[nibel]

The unbalance is, that ArchLich do not take ANY drawback from Archmage tree, while Archmage, if what something from PaleMaster tree is force to take undead form for any real advantage. With your suggestion it’s going even deeper.

I disagree because the Harper tree exists, and the extra +2 Int there matches the basic Lich form, and is a lower hanging fruit (24 AP instead of 31). And unless you want to run as an undead all the time, there is very little in the PM tree that interests an Archmage. And if you do, it is better to just capstone the PM tree instead of the AM tree.

[Requiro]

I disagree because the Harper tree exists, and the extra +2 Int there matches the basic Lich form, and is a lower hanging fruit (24 AP instead of 31). And unless you want to run as an undead all the time, there is very little in the PM tree that interests an Archmage. And if you do, it is better to just capstone the PM tree instead of the AM tree.

My state is:

- PaleMaster can take Archmage perks without drawback
- Archmage can’t take PaleMaster perks without drawback
- PaleMaster with Archmage perks is superior to Archmage with Harper Tree.
- Thus every time PaleMaster win and this is unbalance.
- Your ideas made situation even worse, because PM become even more superior.

So I’m confused… With which one you disagree?

[S3R3N1T7]

palmaster and caster is die with champion implementation

now show the lfm and group and you will see wizard disepear it's reality change pass don't change the problem !!


the champion kill caster / one shoot
they resist spell / mana killer
they have to many pv / mana killer
they have immu death / mana killer


people tr wizard and do other toon class or leave ddo or becaume casual player like me :( (because they hope a day they understand the error they do with this implementation and do something for correct this error )

[fmalfeas]

Actually, my SP casters stayed out of Epic Elite (and in some cases, even heroic elite) even before champs most of the time. Why? Because if I nuked, the buckets of HP would drain my SP out unless I used 'round up and burst' tactics. If I Instakilled or CC'd, the huge DC requirements would require lots of PLs and excellent (if not perfect) DC gear. Little, if any, room for error /in gear and build/. And red names...ugh.

So yeah, it's not champs that are the problem. They have the same saves as a normal mob. So if they aren't deathwarded, they can be instakilled. If they aren't FoM'd, they can be held. If both, they can still be hypno'd/stoned.

[nibel]

My state is:

- PaleMaster can take Archmage perks without drawback
- Archmage can’t take PaleMaster perks without drawback
- PaleMaster with Archmage perks is superior to Archmage with Harper Tree.
- Thus every time PaleMaster win and this is unbalance.

Thus far, I am with you. This is the situation on live, and the trees should receive a balance.


- Your ideas made situation even worse, because PM become even more superior.

That is the point I disagree. I think my proposition on AM, with Harper as secondary, can be equal to PM regarding DC casting.

Capstone/T5 PM + Core 5 Archmage gets:

+6 All [+10 Int (2 Castone, 2 PM, 2 AM, 4 Lich), +1 AM Core 5]
+2 Necromancy [Lich + PM T5]
+2 One school (that can also be Necro) [AM Core 3 and T4 Mastery]
======
+6 General
+8~10 Necro
+8~6 secondary

Capstone/T5 AM + 24 AP Harper

+6 All [+8 Int (2 Capstone, 2 AM, 4 Harper), +2 AM Core 5 and T5]
+3 Secondary School [AM Core 6, T4 mastery, T5 SLA] <-- That T5 SLA is on your credit
+1 Secondary School [AM T5 secondary SLA]
=======
+6 general
+9 Primary
+7 Secondary

Seems balanced to me.

And when we compare the trees in isolation, the situation also stays at the same points: PM can have a higher Necro DC (which make sense), and AM win on the other six schools, but a Necro AM is still only one point behind, while having a better secondary school.

[Requiro]

(...)

Seems balanced to me.

With T5 SLA +1DC 1st school, and T5 +1DC 2nd School, it seems much more balanced, but unfortunately only in terms of DC.

In every other situation, Archlich (T5 PM) with AM (T4) is still superior to Archmage (T5) + Harper tree.

First Harper tree isn't free like PM or AM.
Second is give almost nothing for Wizard but +4 INT and 6/9 USP.

While AM gives PM: SL-as, Efficient Magic, More Spell Power (min. 31) and Spell Points (min. +62), Arcane Bolt/Shot, Spell critical and more. And of course +2 INT is better then +1DC.

And when we compare the trees in isolation (...)

Any reason to do that?. It's pointless.

My comments in red

I still think, that Archmage, should have on T5 additional SL-a from any spell level 1-3. This at least have something similar with original DnD Archmage. And give one more reason to take AM instead of PM.

[nibel]

With T5 SLA +1DC 1st school, and T5 +1DC 2nd School, it seems much more balanced, but unfortunately only in terms of DC.

For most Wizard archetypes, DC is the point that really matters. If you want DPS, there are better classes for that, even within the "spellcaster" umbrella, like sorcerer and warlock.


First Harper tree isn't free like PM or AM.

A fair point. It is accessible for a good portion of the player base, however. So I don't think it is wise to ignore it in the big picture.


Second is give almost nothing for Wizard but +4 INT and 6/9 USP.

A 41 AP PM/31 AP AM gets 61 Universal Spell Power (And 92 Negative, but that is irrelevant for non-PM)
A 41 AP AM/24 AP Harper gets at least 56 Universal. (41 from AM AP, 5 from AM capstone, 5 from Harper core 3, 6 from Harper T2-3)
Then if you consider the AM build saved 7 AP, they can put that on literally anything in AM and get +7 USP, going to 63.

They are also not that far apart from a Universal Spell Power perspective, either.


While AM gives PM: SL-as, Efficient Magic, More Spell Power (min. 31) and Spell Points (min. +62), Arcane Bolt/Shot, Spell critical and more.

My suggestion removes the extra SP per point on tree.

That is the part where the comparison is apples and oranges. 3/4 of the PM tree is basically only useful if you are necro-themed (skelly and negative-crit lines) or in undead form. What is left that a living wizard might get interested? Deathless Vigor (minor buff), Efficient Metamagic (improbable, since AM have four of those) and Cloak of Night. Maybe a single tier on the skelly line for a lever puller.

Saying "splashing on harper/pm does not give an AM any extra trick" is a problem with those trees, not AM. Even if you make the AM T5 "better", it can end up simply inverting the process, with a undead caster going 31 on PM for Lich Form, and getting AM capstone for the extra points to put on T5.


And of course +2 INT is better then +1DC.

Strictly speaking, yes. It also give a few SP points and bonus on int-based skills.

In practice, if you are building a DC-wizard, you only care about Int for the DC bonus.


I still think, that Archmage, should have on T5 additional SL-a from any spell level 1-3. This at least have something similar with original DnD Archmage. And give one more reason to take AM instead of PM.

IIRC, the main problem behind this is the code to allow you to turn "any spell" into a SLA. This was discussed to the death when Archmage was first released.

[bsquishwizzy]

Actually I think the OP may be on to something, especially when it comes to Wind Wall. My only criticisms are:

1) Have Wind Wall have a knockdown effect if the caster is struck.

2) Something more or different needs to be added to the Conjuration Core 3 ability - 10% faster casting time seems weak.

3) Add a +2 INT bump as a Tier 5 ability.\


And make sure Lesser Displacement stacks with the Displacement spell.

Alternatively, you could make the Tier 5 Necro Permanency be something like Ghostly, to keep it aligned with some of the other offerings there.

[Requiro]

I made some tables to sun all your ideas.

DC is the most important for caster thus, today we have:





DC


Universal DC


Main School DC


2nd School DC





PM (41 AP) + AM (31 AP)


+5


+8 (Necro)


+6 (If not Necro)





AM (41 AP) + Harper (24 AP)


+4


+6 (Any)


+5 (Any but Main)





AM (41 AP) + PM (22 AP)


+3


+5 (Any)


+4 (Any but Main)





AM (41 AP) + PM (31 AP)


+4


+7/5 (Necro/Not)


+5/6 (Necro/Not)






While with your suggestions:





DC


Universal DC


Main School DC


2nd School DC





PM (41 AP) + AM (31 AP)


+6


+10 (Necro)


+8 (If not Necro)





AM (41 AP) + Harper (24 AP)


+6


+9 (Any)


+7 (Any but Main)





AM (41 AP) + PM (22 AP)


+5


+8 (Any)


+6 (Any but Main)





AM (41 AP) + PM (31 AP)


+6


+10/9 (Necro/Not)


+7/9 (Necro/Not)






Compare other bonuses:



Main Perks
PM (41 AP) + AM (31 AP)
AM (41 AP) + Harper (24 AP)
AM (41 AP) + PM (22 AP)
AM (41 AP) + PM (31 AP)


Undead Form
YES
NO
NO
YES


AP Left
8
15
17
8





Special Perks
PM (41 AP) + AM (31 AP)
AM (41 AP) + Harper (24 AP)
AM (41 AP) + PM (22 AP)
AM (41 AP) + PM (31 AP)


SL-a Access
1-4 levels
1-5 + 1 levels
1-5 + 1 levels
1-5 + 1 levels


Efficient Metamagic
5 of 5
4 of 5
5 of 5
5 of 5


Spell Critical
N (+8%) E+F (6%)
E+F (6%)
N (+6%) E+F (6%)
N (+8%) E+F (6%)


Main Healing
Negative
Positive/Repair
Positive/Repair
Negative/Positive/Repair






Minor Perks
PM (41 AP) + AM (31 AP)
AM (41 AP) + Harper (24 AP)
AM (41 AP) + PM (22 AP)
AM (41 AP) + PM (31 AP)


U SPower (trees)
62
47
57
64


U SPower Access
+10 (Orb)
+6/10 (Orb)
+10 (Orb)
+10 (Orb)


S Point (tree)
+~250
+~220
+~190
+~220


S Points Access
+90
+210
+90
+90


Necro SP
+41
+0
+16
+23


Spellcraft
+5
+9
+8
+9


HP Cost Damage SL-a
YES (All)
NO
YES (1)
YES (1)


SP Cost damage SL-a
YES (All)
YES (All)
YES (All)
YES (All)


Discount SP School Spells
-5 SP
-6 SP
-6 SP
-6 SP


Deathblock
YES
NO
NO
NO



After all this analyze I concur - this is good way to improve AM

What I will add is minor improvements:

Additional -1 Spell Point for AM Capstone for Main School spells (Thus with capstone -7 SP for School spells)
-1 Sell Point for T5 2nd School when taking Archmage Dilettante Studies
50% (thus 5% chance) to gain +2 INT with Arcane Supremacy - for temporarily super power. Mostly for flavor.
Add Spell Critical (+2%) for Arcane Mastery T5 AM ability
More balance to Core 6 additional bonus


Now the hardest problem is how to convince Devs to implement this? :-)