Anyone running a non-freeze Bard20 warchanter?

[voodoogroves]

At all?

Looking to spend some time in the martial EDs, and figured I'd take advantage of the LR-ish nature and retool - human bard 20. I've got a swashbuckler already, so I'd prefer to not double-dip there (though I could if the WC is that under-performing).

If it's that poor, I may instead go through a few PDK lives as a warchanter.

[MadCookieQueen]

do you have to absolutely have full 20 levels of Bard in there?


If you can bring yourself to 15 Bard...look up War Dancer in my signature, it's a TWF Tempest Dance of Death Warchanter build.

[voodoogroves]

do you have to absolutely have full 20 levels of Bard in there?


If you can bring yourself to 15 Bard...look up War Dancer in my signature, it's a TWF Tempest Dance of Death Warchanter build.

Well, the char is Bard20 right now and mostly a caster, and I've been eTRing. Filled out arcanes one life, just finished primals. Was going to do the martials and was thinking maybe I'd swap to a melee build for those.

I could blow a +5 heart, but if I'm going to do that I might bight the bullet and just heroic TR and do some as a PDK and maybe snag the PDK feat.

But I'm cheap ;-)

[MadCookieQueen]

what race?

[voodoogroves]

what race?

Human. Thinking maybe something like this ... or maybe abandon TWF and go w/ Cleave / Great Cleave for LD fun.

Warchanter
Bard 20
True Neutral Human


Stats
. . . . . . . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 15. . . .+4. . . .4: STR
Dexterity . . . 15. . . .+4. . . .8: STR
Constitution. . 14. . . .+4. . . 12: STR
Intelligence. . 10. . . .+4. . . 16: STR
Wisdom. . . . . 14. . . .+4. . . 20: STR
Charisma. . . . 14. . . .+4. . . 24: STR
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: STR

Feats

.1. . . . : Two Weapon Fighting
.1 Human. : Power Attack
.3. . . . : Empower Healing Spell
.6. . . . : Extend Spell
.9. . . . : Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. . . . : Improved Critical: Piercing
15. . . . : Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18. . . . : Quicken Spell
21 Epic . :
24 Epic . :
26 Destiny:
27 Epic . :
28 Destiny:


Enhancements (80 AP)

Human (5 AP)
Damage Boost, Strength
Improved Recovery

Warchanter (42 AP)
Skaldic: Rage, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit, Victory Song, Warmaster
Poetic Edda I, Rough and Ready III
Arcane Shield Chant III, Iced Edges III
Ironskin Chant III, Obstinance III, High Spirits III, Strength
Reckless Chant III, Armorer, Strength
Expeditious Chant III, Chant of Power III, Howl of the North

Spellsinger (22 AP)
Spellsinger, Music of the Sewers, Music of the Dead
Studies: Magical III, Lingering Songs III
Willful III, Wand and Scroll Mastery III
Reviving Verse III, Spell Song Trance
Sustaining Song

Swashbuckler (7 AP)
Confidence
On Your Toes III, Limber Up I
Fast Movement

Harper Agent (4 AP)
Agent of Good I
Weathered Traveler III



Tempted to drop Harper for Frolic and have "ALL TEH SONGZ"

[N-0cturn]

Do you want to play a non-freezer because you don't want to go PDK or because you just don't like freezing. Or because you think you have to go Str-based a non SWF?

I played a 18 Bard / 1 Barb / 1 Artificer Human TWF Warchanter for quite a while at cap and did several eTRs. Int-based with TWF Khopesh fighting, which worked very well. The freeze-DCs works well Int or Cha based with Harper, but Going Int-based means you get Int to damage with TWF from Harper. And it is definitely something different than most other bards.

It would work as pure as well, although especially trapping and the nice repeater damage made this build fun for me. But I would probably not use a 5 heart for that.

If you just don't want to freeze at all, I would not go Warchanter. You can of course make a solid TWF or THF WC, but the DPS will always be quite below a swash and you don't really gain much from it except for the medium armor option.

By the way: The 30 AP Core from WC gives an unlisted -10% Arcane Spell Failure in Medium Armor, so you don't need armorer. You can just slot a -15% Augment and be done. (At least this was still the case before I TRed about 3 months ago)

And to be absolutely honest. I think the fastest and most fun as a Human 20 WC would be freezer with SWF. Especially if the bard was a caster before. A TWF bard requires much more gear planning than a SWF bard because you need khopeshes or warhammer (If you want to level martial sphere warhammer would be the way to go) and loose the shield slot.

[voodoogroves]

Do you want to play a non-freezer because you don't want to go PDK or because you just don't like freezing. Or because you think you have to go Str-based a non SWF?

I played a 18 Bard / 1 Barb / 1 Artificer Human TWF Warchanter for quite a while at cap and did several eTRs. Int-based with TWF Khopesh fighting, which worked very well. The freeze-DCs works well Int or Cha based with Harper, but Going Int-based means you get Int to damage with TWF from Harper. And it is definitely something different than most other bards.

It would work as pure as well, although especially trapping and the nice repeater damage made this build fun for me. But I would probably not use a 5 heart for that.

If you just don't want to freeze at all, I would not go Warchanter. You can of course make a solid TWF or THF WC, but the DPS will always be quite below a swash and you don't really gain much from it except for the medium armor option.

By the way: The 30 AP Core from WC gives an unlisted -10% Arcane Spell Failure in Medium Armor, so you don't need armorer. You can just slot a -15% Augment and be done. (At least this was still the case before I TRed about 3 months ago)

And to be absolutely honest. I think the fastest and most fun as a Human 20 WC would be freezer with SWF. Especially if the bard was a caster before. A TWF bard requires much more gear planning than a SWF bard because you need khopeshes or warhammer (If you want to level martial sphere warhammer would be the way to go) and loose the shield slot.

Mostly because ....
- It is for some eTR lives, so human bard 20
- I'm skeptical freeze will work well as that without pdk, fighter PLs or fighter tactics adds
- I'm already going to be chasing seeker, deadly, etc. adding stunning and combat mastery is more gear annoyance
- I have a swashie already

[MadCookieQueen]

I'm basing this solely off of what you have, just tweaked it around.

You'll need to Min/Max your stats for ideal effectiveness:

Abilities:
STR: 18
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 8
WIS: 8
CHA: 12

Since Bards get a nice number of skill points and you aren't using KtA...not worth the extra INT investment (also the human +1 skills at level makes up for the -1 until 7th level), also Wisdom does nothing for you.

TWF has amazing damage possibilities, expect aggro, more CON = more HP which ups survivability

Yes in this configuration you'll get iTWF later but you really won't get into the happy fun proccing weapons till about 12 anyway, so it's a wash.

Feats:
Base: Power Attack (1), TWF (3), Great Cleave (6), Quicken (9), iTWF (12), IC: Piercing or gTWF (15), gTWF or IC: Piercing (18), Overwhelming (21), Empower heal or Maximize (24), Inspire excellence (27)
Human: Cleave (1)
Epic Destiny: pTWF (26), Lasting Inspiration (28)

There is a method to the madness here. I'm assuming you'll be doing a lot in Legendary Dreadnaught...Cleave and Great Cleave give you access to Lay Waste and Momentum Swing, both very nice and with epic mob densities, they are actually viable. (Cleave is not a DPS loss when surrounded by 3 or more monsters)

You'll have the full TWF line and IC by the time you hit Vale (IMHO when the game starts getting tricky). You can change around their order, if you're more comfortable with that

You can delay Inspire Excellence and Lasting Inspiration because you aren't worried about frozen DCs or anything. Lasting Inspiration is really only super useful for Inspire Excellence, most of the other songs on a pure Bard last a long time.

If you willing to do some farming, I'd really recommend going Warhammers for this build. In LD they can be as mean as a khopesh, then take IC: Bludgeon



Enhancements:
You are a Warchanter...you have 2 weapons and a thirst for blood. Remember that and the enhancements will make sense.


Human (10 AP)
C: Damage Boost (1), STR (1)
I: Improved Recovery (2), Surge: STR III (3)
II: Ambidexterity III (3)

Warchanter (41 AP)
C: Skaldic: Rage, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit, Victory Song, Warmaster
I: Poetic Edda I (1), Rough and Ready III (3)
II: Action Boost Sprint III (3), Iced Edges III (3)
III: Ironskin Chant III (3), Frozen Fury III (3), Strength I (2)
IV: Reckless Chant III (3), Armorer (2), Strength II (2)
V: Chant of Power III (3), Howl of the North (2), Kingly Recovery III (3)

Swashbuckler (15 AP)
C: Confidence (1)
I: On your toes III(3), Blow by Blow III(3)
II: Fast Movement (2), Action Boost Doublestrike III (6)

Spellsinger (11 AP)
C: Spellsinger (1), Music of the Sewers (1), Music of the Dead (1)
I: Lingering Songs III (3), Magical Studies III (3)
II Wand and Scroll II (2)

Harper (3 AP)
C: Agent of Good (1)
I: Enchantment (2)

The goal is to really REALLY play into the melee capabilities of what you have going on here. You want every last bit of melee oomph you can get out of this. so you take some of the non-swashbuckling goodies out of swashbuckler. Grab some of the melee buffs from being human and enough Spellsinger for support purposes.

I'm aware that you'll lose out on the extra Damage Mod from KtA, but you didn't put it in your original build, so I did not include it here.


Overall, this is a solid melee idea for your eTR needs. I am considering fully writing this up...with some changes.

[unbongwah]

By the way: The 30 AP Core from WC gives an unlisted -10% Arcane Spell Failure in Medium Armor, so you don't need armorer. You can just slot a -15% Augment and be done. (At least this was still the case before I TRed about 3 months ago)
Except pure bard doesn't have med armor prof, so you still need Armorer anyway.

Revisiting an oldie-but-still-goodie, THF Warchanter using mauls & med armor:


THF Warchanter
Bard 20
True Neutral Human


Stats
36pt Tome Level Up
---- ---- --------
Strength 18 +4 4: STR
Dexterity 8 +4 8: STR
Constitution 16 +4 12: STR
Intelligence 16 +4 16: STR
Wisdom 8 +4 20: STR
Charisma 8 +4 24: STR
28: STR

Skills
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
------------------------------------------------------------
Perform 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Concent 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Bluff 3 2 2 2 2 1 3 1 3 4 23
Balance 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Hide 4 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 23
Move Si 4 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 23
Tumble 4 1 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 23
UMD 4 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 23
Heal 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 11
Search 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 11
Spot 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 11
------------------------------------------------------------
40 10 10 10 10 10 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 12 12 12 12 12 12


Feats

1 : Power Attack
1 Human : Two Handed Fighting
3 : Cleave
6 : Great Cleave
9 : Improved Two Handed Fighting
12 : Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
15 : Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 : Quicken Spell
21 Epic : Inspire Excellence
24 Epic : Overwhelming Critical
26 Destiny: Lasting Inspiration
27 Epic : Completionist
28 Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting


Enhancements (80 AP)

Human (3 AP)


Damage Boost


Improved Recovery



Warchanter (42 AP)


Skaldic: Rage, Weapon Training, Song of Heroism, Fighting Spirit, Victory Song, Warmaster


Poetic Edda III, Enchant Weapon, Rough and Ready III
Iced Edges III
Ironskin Chant III, Frozen Fury III
Reckless Chant III, Armorer, Northwind III
Expeditious Chant III, Chant of Power III, Howl of the North



Spellsinger (13 AP)


Spellsinger, Music of the Sewers, Music of the Dead


Studies: Magical III, Lingering Songs III
Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enthrallment



Swashbuckler (11 AP)


Confidence, Swashbuckling, Uncanny Dodge


Blow By Blow: Melee III, Tavern Shanties I
Deflect Arrows, Fast Movement



Harper Agent (11 AP)


Agent of Good I


Harper Enchantment, Weathered Traveler II
Versatile Adept III, Know the Angles III




Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought


Extra Action Boost III, Strength
Momentum Swing III, Imp. Power Attack
Lay Waste, Haste Boost III
Anvil of Thunder
Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
Master's Blitz, Pulverizer


Twists of Fate (22 fate points)


Sense Weakness (Tier 4 Fury)
Grim Precision (Tier 3 Shadowdancer)
Rejuvenation Cocoon (Tier 1 Primal)



Maul crit profile: 20/x3 (base) -> 19-20/x3 (Pulverizer) -> 17-20/x3 (IC:Blunt) -> 17-18/x3 19-20/x6 (Overwhelming Crit + Devastating Crit + Howl of the North). Also a good weapon choice if you switch to barb.

If you don't have Completionist yet, you can take what you want at lvl 27, such as Empower Heal, Insightful Reflexes, or Improved Sunder.

[voodoogroves]

@MCQ: I'll start at 20, so don't mind prejudicing a build for that. This will be an eTR, just for the martial sphere PLs, not heroics. I was thinking pierce, but should I go blunt? FWIW, I have most of the unique hammers, a pair of Phosphors and enough tome pages to make 2-3 others. I was leaning pierce for dual Deathnips / Star of Day / Rapiers / Celestia but I could work Earthshatters / Coronation / Phosphors / Morhn (she's also sitting on a Raider's box or two).

@Both: I'm a bit worried about reflex save, which is kinda why I was leaning towards TWF. I actually don't expect I'll spend much time at 27, and virtually none at 28; I just want a few of the epic PL feats, plus something to do other than level through them for the fate points on a caster. I'm not against THF, and frankly have an eAGA, T3 Ratkiller, eFury (and again, a raider's box which I'd probably use on Sireth if it didn't drop) sitting in-bank - I was just thinking if I'm going warchanter I should work the buffs to the best of my ability and make the most of the songs w/ a fast attack rate.


Another few questions ... because questions

- is SWF w/o going swashy viable? Every time I look at it, I end up finding myself investing a lot in swash, then looking more and more like a swash. I've got loads of shields on this character, but they are all things like Fannions, Skyvaults, etc. and not bucklers.

- *will* freeze work on a human w/ no fighter PLs and no fighter splash for tactics / brutality to any reasonable degree?

[voodoogroves]

@MCQ: Didn't see your edits when I posted; roger that on the Warhammers ;-)

- Sprint boost vs. expeditious chant - one is limited in use, but much faster - the other helps everyone. I suppose though I'll have tons of action boosts in LD though is the idea.

- I admit I often ignore Kingly Recovery, and generally find myself loving Sustaining Song - that said, I expect it will perform differently on something barely invested in SS.

- How bad is self healing w/ Empower Healing / etc. so late?

[MadCookieQueen]

@MCQ: I'll start at 20, so don't mind prejudicing a build for that. This will be an eTR, just for the martial sphere PLs, not heroics. I was thinking pierce, but should I go blunt? FWIW, I have most of the unique hammers, a pair of Phosphors and enough tome pages to make 2-3 others. I was leaning pierce for dual Deathnips / Star of Day / Rapiers / Celestia but I could work Earthshatters / Coronation / Phosphors / Morhn (she's also sitting on a Raider's box or two).

true but...I always try to select feats for heroics, just in case some random player wants to run this through heroics.

If it was me...i'd go with the Warhammers and in LD you may want to consider:

I: Extra Action Boost III (3), STR I (2)
II: Momentum Swing III (3), Improved Power Attack (2)
III: Lay Waste (1), Action Boost: Haste III (3)
VI: Anvil of Thunder (2)
V: Devasting Critical (2)
VI: Masters Blitz (2), Pulverizer (2)
Twists: Balanced Attacks (3), Brace for Impact (1), Primal Scream (1)

Now if you want to do piercing: Swap Pulverizer for Advancing Blows and Anvil of Thunder for Legendary tactics II (helps with Frozen) or STR (depends if your STR is odd or even)




Another few questions ... because questions

- is SWF w/o going swashy viable? Every time I look at it, I end up finding myself investing a lot in swash, then looking more and more like a swash. I've got loads of shields on this character, but they are all things like Fannions, Skyvaults, etc. and not bucklers.

- *will* freeze work on a human w/ no fighter PLs and no fighter splash for tactics / brutality to any reasonable degree?

On a Bard...If you go SWF and you dont' max out as much Swash as possible, you'll be missing out. SWF and Swash being released together was no accident, they were designed to have happy damage babies together.

Think of it like this -- SWF = Swash, WC = Everything else (purely from a DPS perspective)



- *will* freeze work on a human w/ no fighter PLs and no fighter splash for tactics / brutality to any reasonable degree?

Like anything at the very least you have a 5% chance of it working (monsters do roll 1s)

But let's do math!

Frozen: 45 (10 Base, +8 CHA (figure a 26 is easily viable with tome and +8 item) +10 level +10 item (figure a +10 stunning dun robar ring or something) +6 Combat Mastery (adamantine bear cloak) item +1 ship)

If we assume a 75 max fort save in EEs (sorry I build for EEs) you'll hit right around 60% of the time. Which is pretty decent considering you are not geared out nor specifically built for it.

[MadCookieQueen]

@MCQ: Didn't see your edits when I posted; roger that on the Warhammers ;-)

- Sprint boost vs. expeditious chant - one is limited in use, but much faster - the other helps everyone. I suppose though I'll have tons of action boosts in LD though is the idea.

- I admit I often ignore Kingly Recovery, and generally find myself loving Sustaining Song - that said, I expect it will perform differently on something barely invested in SS.

- How bad is self healing w/ Empower Healing / etc. so late?

Reminder: Action Surge...you use an action boost (as far as I can tell ANY action boost) and you get that +3 STR...if possible you want to be boosted as much as possible. So even if you are running straight into combat as long as that sprint boost is on you have +3.

I wouldn't worry about helping everyone's run speed...people run around like headless chickens on cocaine, another 15% isn't going to make or break that...also it's typed as Action Boost...so any one with a Sprint boost doesn't benefit.

Kingly is very nice, much better than sustaining song as one is the Panic Button and the other is well...not that sustaining.

Empower Heal, late isn't bad. You should have a devotion augment or item equipped, so even at 20 that's +90. If you have them, Gauntlets of Immortality are very nice. You have healing amp available to you, so I would consider that in your calcs. Think of empower healing at late game as icing on the cake (and you'll have more SP to handle using it as an add on by then)

[voodoogroves]

true but...I always try to select feats for heroics, just in case some random player wants to run this through heroics.

Sure


If it was me...i'd go with the Warhammers and in LD you may want to consider:

I: Extra Action Boost III (3), STR I (2)
II: Momentum Swing III (3), Improved Power Attack (2)
III: Lay Waste (1), Action Boost: Haste III (3)
VI: Anvil of Thunder (2)
V: Devasting Critical (2)
VI: Masters Blitz (2), Pulverizer (2)
Twists: Balanced Attacks (3), Brace for Impact (1), Primal Scream (1)

Now if you want to do piercing: Swap Pulverizer for Advancing Blows and Anvil of Thunder for Legendary tactics II (helps with Frozen) or STR (depends if your STR is odd or even)

Yep, looks about where I'd end up too. TY!


On a Bard...If you go SWF and you dont' max out as much Swash as possible, you'll be missing out. SWF and Swash being released together was no accident, they were designed to have happy damage babies together.

Think of it like this -- SWF = Swash, WC = Everything else (purely from a DPS perspective)
That's where my brain goes too. It also goes "Freeze = CHA, so to get CHA to damage I'm either PDK, swashbuckler or taking a level dip for divine might".


Like anything at the very least you have a 5% chance of it working (monsters do roll 1s)

But let's do math!

Frozen: 45 (10 Base, +8 CHA (figure a 26 is easily viable with tome and +8 item) +10 level +10 item (figure a +10 stunning dun robar ring or something) +6 Combat Mastery (adamantine bear cloak) item +1 ship)

If we assume a 75 max fort save in EEs (sorry I build for EEs) you'll hit right around 60% of the time. Which is pretty decent considering you are not geared out nor specifically built for it.

I may not do many level 28 EEs with it, though I'll wander through plenty of the lower level ones as I cap and recap. I also feel I should aim for as non-gimp as possible.

Is that really a 60%? With a 45, anyone w/ a 65 auto-saves right? Or are you saying the max save is 75 and that's on a fort-heavy mob, so the lower-save mobs should still fail?

Lemme back into base frozen on a human for my own edification.

Call it 10 base + 20 CHA + 10 levels + 10 item + 5 combat mastery +1 ship + 6 LD ... what's that a 62? Maybe 3 more w/ a +6 cloak and a +12 stunning item. Of course, to do that I really should be adding CHA to damage, thus swashing again (or I'll be the crazy person using two scepters of healing / epic elyd edges).

[MadCookieQueen]

Is that really a 60%? With a 45, anyone w/ a 65 auto-saves right? Or are you saying the max save is 75 and that's on a fort-heavy mob, so the lower-save mobs should still fail?

Lemme back into base frozen on a human for my own edification.

Call it 10 base + 20 CHA + 10 levels + 10 item + 5 combat mastery +1 ship + 6 LD ... what's that a 62? Maybe 3 more w/ a +6 cloak and a +12 stunning item. Of course, to do that I really should be adding CHA to damage, thus swashing again (or I'll be the crazy person using two scepters of healing / epic elyd edges).

At a bare minimum you have a 5% chance of success...anyone can roll a 1 ^^

I would probably ignore the rest of the statement as I keep forgetting that my stats versus game DC on a 45 versus a 75 save monster you'll only have that guarantee from your Nat 20 (+65 basically and auto win) and the monster rolling a +1 (auto lose). However not everything gets that high and the ones that do...well odds are the proc won't affect it anyways. the nice thing is that TWF has a fast attack speed and the off hand proc abilities give you more of a chance for it to hit.

You need a 50 CHA stat to hit a +20 modifier. I dont' think you can readily hit it, without being CHA based.

At a max if we upgraded your tome and found all the items for level 28 (using the same enhancements, stats and ED):

CHA 41 (12 base +6 tome +1 exceptional +11 item +3 insightful +2 profane +2 ship +2 song +2 yugo)

Here's the thing though...Frozen Fury is a prerequisite for Northwind. I only added in the math, as a reference. If I wasn't CHA based...I wouldn't even add it to my hot bar.

Notice how there is no spinning ice? Because the ice doesn't matter (as requested)

[voodoogroves]

At a bare minimum you have a 5% chance of success...anyone can roll a 1 ^^

I would probably ignore the rest of the statement as I keep forgetting that my stats versus game DC on a 45 versus a 75 save monster you'll only have that guarantee from your Nat 20 (+65 basically and auto win) and the monster rolling a +1 (auto lose). However not everything gets that high and the ones that do...well odds are the proc won't affect it anyways. the nice thing is that TWF has a fast attack speed and the off hand proc abilities give you more of a chance for it to hit.

You need a 50 CHA stat to hit a +20 modifier. I dont' think you can readily hit it, without being CHA based.
Yeah I was thinking from a "can a human CHA based hit a decent mark" perspective. I'm not inclined that way, as it makes me a dirty dirty swashbuckler (like my other character ...)


Here's the thing though...Frozen Fury is a prerequisite for Northwind. I only added in the math, as a reference. If I wasn't CHA based...I wouldn't even add it to my hot bar.
Curses. Builder doesn't make it a pre-req; missed that.

[voodoogroves]

This is almost totally worth doing a PDK life (lives) to avoid the pain.

Freeze = CHA = swash or PDK is lame. What Warchanter is going to want to go CHA based with suck damage? I think that's the part that bugs me the most.

[MadCookieQueen]

This is almost totally worth doing a PDK life (lives) to avoid the pain.

Freeze = CHA = swash or PDK is lame. What Warchanter is going to want to go CHA based with suck damage? I think that's the part that bugs me the most.

I think we've hit this wierd point of "OMG! I am taking Warchanter I have to use the ICE!"

Truth is...you don't. Warchanter has enough various goodies to make you effective without using Frozen Fury and Spinning Ice. Also if you can't get Sense Weakness in with your twists and up the damage on a helpless proc, it isn't quite as cool as you think.

Also PDK will require a +1 heart to go full Bard, that's just basic fact.

There are plenty of PDK Ice Freezie Bards on the forums, if you want to go that route.

The next question is...do you really want to do a full TR at this point or just finish up your eTRs and then go form there? I thought your goal was to do your eTRs and then move on, using what you have in place.

[voodoogroves]

I think we've hit this wierd point of "OMG! I am taking Warchanter I have to use the ICE!"

Truth is...you don't. Warchanter has enough various goodies to make you effective without using Frozen Fury and Spinning Ice. Also if you can't get Sense Weakness in with your twists and up the damage on a helpless proc, it isn't quite as cool as you think.

Also PDK will require a +1 heart to go full Bard, that's just basic fact.

There are plenty of PDK Ice Freezie Bards on the forums, if you want to go that route.

The next question is...do you really want to do a full TR at this point or just finish up your eTRs and then go form there? I thought your goal was to do your eTRs and then move on, using what you have in place.

eTR. I'm spinning and expressing general frustration ;-)

Pretty sure I'm sold on the TWF warchanter path. Let's talk ... beyond Mornh what else should I farm up?

[MadCookieQueen]

eTR. I'm spinning and expressing general frustration ;-)

Pretty sure I'm sold on the TWF warchanter path. Let's talk ... beyond Mornh what else should I farm up?

Thunder Forge Warhammers...you only need up to tier 2 (800 ignots, 600 comms, 25 Fire Dragon Scale, 75 Shadow Dragon scales) Outside of that (and Morhn)...there isn't a lot of decent Warhammer options

I would recommend:

TF Warhammer: 1st degree burns, Dragon's Edge (star ruby)
TF Warhammer: 1st Degree Burns, Purple Augment Slot (Devotion and Star ruby)

[unbongwah]

@Both: I'm a bit worried about reflex save, which is kinda why I was leaning towards TWF.
With the addition of MRR, Reflex saves are less important than they used to be; and on my build, which goes for high INT + Know the Angles for extra DPS, you could use the "spare" feat slot for Insightful Reflexes if you feel you need it. Part of why I went with THF is you didn't mention what gear you had, so this way you would only need one set of weapons rather than two. Though if you have dual Mornhs (or Mornh + Balizarde for variety's sake), that's a different matter. :)

- is SWF w/o going swashy viable? Every time I look at it, I end up finding myself investing a lot in swash, then looking more and more like a swash.
SWF w/out Swashbuckling basically means using a non-Finesseable weapon; is there any particular reason for doing so? SWF Mornh in LD is comparable to a standard Swashy weapon: 19-20/x3 base -> 18-20/x3 Pulverizer -> 15-20/x3 IC:Blunt -> 15-18/x3 19-20/x6 (OC+DC+HotN). But Balizarde would be better: 15-20/x3 base (already keen) -> 15-20/x4 Swashbuckler -> 15-18/x4 19-20/x7 (OC+DC+HotN). In which case, the only advantage of Mornh is using Anvil of Thunder instead of Volcano's Edge.

Besides, since you explicitly wanted "not a Swashbuckler," I tried to get as far away from them as I could on a pure bard, which meant no SWF as well.

[mezzorco]

I'm skeptical freeze will work well as that without pdk, fighter PLs or fighter tactics adds

I'm a 34pt Half-orc pure Bard with 13 starting CHA, 1 Fighter PL, no epic PL.
In Epic Hard, it is very useful and quite reliable. Almost always working on casters, with crappy gear (first time in epic, don't even have combat mastery).

If you intend to go EE, it could still be worthwhile to try it. ;)

[voodoogroves]

With the addition of MRR, Reflex saves are less important than they used to be; and on my build, which goes for high INT + Know the Angles for extra DPS, you could use the "spare" feat slot for Insightful Reflexes if you feel you need it. Part of why I went with THF is you didn't mention what gear you had, so this way you would only need one set of weapons rather than two. Though if you have dual Mornhs (or Mornh + Balizarde for variety's sake), that's a different matter. :)

Right, MRR. Got to put my head around that still.

Besides, since you explicitly wanted "not a Swashbuckler," I tried to get as far away from them as I could on a pure bard, which meant no SWF as well.
And I specifically don't want to buckle any swashes ;-)

TY all.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to end up on some variant of MCQ's - something between what she posted and what I posted.

[MadCookieQueen]

I'm pretty sure I'm going to end up on some variant of MCQ's - something between what she posted and what I posted.

make sure you post up what you actually run with ^^

[voodoogroves]

Give I'm starting at 20 and what folks remind me about MRR, I can cheat DEX down a bit initially and back-load the TWF feats. Checking tomes, I've got 3s in STR, DEX, WIS, 5s in CHA, CON, INT (hey, they were solid 2 years ago!).



I may make a pair of Coronation to tide me over until Morhn / TF. I can put a Devotion 90 in one, and a Ruby-damage augment ... then maybe a flat ML20 damage in the other + another Ruby damage augment. The blunt khopeshes should work well enough until I get the others.

I just zoned into Thunderholme today and cleared it, snagging the explorers. Fun to explore, nifty map - and flagged myself for the raids. Just gotta make the blanks and throw some upgrades on them.

[cru121]

You could also swing Oathblade if you have spare PDK comms.

[voodoogroves]

Ah given that it's keen, etc.

[cru121]

yeah, it also kinda frees bracer slot, because it has parrying. it's ok