Idea for changing bravery

[EllisDee37]

Instead of bravery, how about an Explorer bonus? You get Explorer the first time you run a quest in a life. Explorer doubles the difficulty-based first time bonus. At the same time, change the elite first time bonus from 80% to 75% and normal from 25% to 20%.

This works out to essentially the same bonus as bravery, plus a slight boost for running normal first. It retains all the benefits of bravery (encouraging running a variety of quests) while removing the anti-grouping features of bravery. (Reluctant to join a normal or hard group if you haven't run elite yet.)

Really it just boils down to the "fold the bravery bonus into first time bonus" concept, but in a fully fleshed out way. The net effect is that the streak goes away, and the bravery description in the xp report gets shortened and becomes easier to understand. Something along the lines of:

Explorer bonus: The first time you run a quest, double your first-time difficulty bonus.




Here's a comparison of how different styles would be effected:


In the current game on live...

first time elite: +80%
first time hard: +40%
first time normal: +25%

bravery elite: +70%
bravery hard: +35%
bravery normal: +0%

elite one and done: 150%
hard one and done: 75%
hard then elite: +75% + 80% = 155%
elite then hard then normal: +150% elite + 40% hard + 25% normal = 215%
hard then normal then elite: +75% hard + 25% normal + 80% elite = 180%
normal then hard then elite: +25% normal + 40% hard + 80% elite = 145%


Replacing bravery with explorer...

first time elite: +75%
first time hard: +40%
first time normal: +20%

explorer elite: +75%
explorer hard: +40%
explorer normal: +20%

elite one and done: 150%
hard one and done: 80%
hard then elite: +80% + 80% = 160%
elite then hard then normal: +150% elite + 40% hard + 20% normal = +210%
hard then normal then elite: +80% hard + 20% normal + 75% elite = +175%
normal then hard then elite: +40% normal + 40% hard + 75% elite = 155%

[UurlockYgmeov]

interesting.

how would this work with daily playthrough bonus? (or in my sleep addled mind did I miss something?)

how would this work with ransack?

I ask because IIRC you can do EBB w/ daily playthrough first and that would seemingly skew the results towards running elite first anyways.

[Coyopa]

I like the idea of bravery bonus going away and replaced with something like this. It should be noted that your idea will not get people to run normal first. I'll still run elite first, especially because I pretty much "one and done" every quest I run. There are a few that I'll run a couple times because I think they're fun, and I can count them on one hand. I don't think there is anyone who needs to milk a quest for two runs, let alone three.

[Maelphistez]

MMm.... so without going through all the math scenarios, this is meant to replace streaking? I'm all in favor of any change that removes the concept of "Elite Streaking" so that people are more willing to join a quest with friends or strangers and not "break their streak".

Currently, an Elite Streak combines 3 separate parts:

First Time Elite bonus: 80% (Available for doing the quest the first time on Elite no matter if you have done the quest on other difficulties)
First Time Bravery bonus: 20% (Available for running the quest for the first time on Elite, 10% if you chose to do Hard instead)
Elite Bravery Streak: +10% Stacking a max of 5x to 50%

So, you can get 150% for maintaining an elite streak. Would it be easier to change your "Explorer bonus" to just be part of First Time Bravery? 70% for first time Elite, 35% for first time Hard, 10% for first time Normal, and no bonus for first time Casual?

[Lonnbeimnech]

Would be easier to throw out normal and hard, and change the name of elite to normal. Leave the remaining bonuses alone.

[Warrax23]

Yes, I've personally had it with Streaking. Everywhere you go around DDO now, streakers... it's an epidemic..

Put your short swords away and put some clothes on! And get off my lawn!

[Ailia]

Replacing bravery with explorer...

first time elite: +75%
first time hard: +40%
first time normal: +20%

explorer elite: +75%
explorer hard: +40%
explorer normal: +20%

elite one and done: 150%
hard one and done: 80%
hard then elite: +80% + 80% = 160%
elite then hard then normal: +150% elite + 40% hard + 20% normal = +210%
hard then normal then elite: +80% hard + 20% normal + 75% elite = +175%
normal then hard then elite: +40% normal + 40% hard + 75% elite = 155%

This doesn't really solve the issue of it still being better to do elite first. If the explorer was a flat 75% it wouldn't matter if you did normal, hard, elite, or elite, hard, normal; the disincentive of doing something other than elite first would finally be gone.

[Oxarhamar]

IMO bravery bonus is fine.

It keep the game from being the NNNNNNHE or EEEEEEHN grind fest that it's been for ages.

One & done works well.


I think the problem is disparity in repeat runs the XP is so much lower in a repeat run its not worth bothering. This is especially painful in an ETR cycle of you've exausted Bravey Bonuses.


If something is to change boost the amount of XP for repeat runs on EE as those give a disproportionate XP reward for the challenge & effort to complete vs. just smashing EN.

[UurlockYgmeov]

I like the idea of bravery bonus going away and replaced with something like this. It should be noted that your idea will not get people to run normal first. I'll still run elite first, especially because I pretty much "one and done" every quest I run. There are a few that I'll run a couple times because I think they're fun, and I can count them on one hand. I don't think there is anyone who needs to milk a quest for two runs, let alone three.

In heroics, but after ERing... well Oxarhamr says it well:


I think the problem is disparity in repeat runs the XP is so much lower in a repeat run its not worth bothering. This is especially painful in an ETR cycle of you've exausted Bravey Bonuses.


IMO bravery bonus is fine.

It keep the game from being the NNNNNNHE or EEEEEEHN grind fest that it's been for ages.

One & done works well.

Things might change when the cap goes to 30; however mostly concur with what you wrote. Sagas's are meant to help, at least if I understand the intentions behind them.


Yes, I've personally had it with Streaking. Everywhere you go around DDO now, streakers... it's an epidemic..

Put your short swords away and put some clothes on! And get off my lawn!

But, but Am a Halfling!!! We are just expressing our halflingness by going around in our birthday suits!

[Red_Knight]

I like the idea of bravery bonus going away and replaced with something like this. It should be noted that your idea will not get people to run normal first. I'll still run elite first, especially because I pretty much "one and done" every quest I run. There are a few that I'll run a couple times because I think they're fun, and I can count them on one hand. I don't think there is anyone who needs to milk a quest for two runs, let alone three.

I'd like this idea though. Not everyone can, or does run Elite first. Unless a vip a first life character can't run hard or elite on their first run. Or your build just can't handle elite on that quest, yet. Jumping into some quests on elite first thing can be suicide. There's that one in the market that has Hard and Elite at much higher level then normal for example. Devil's Assault, I think.

Korthos, harbor, and low level market quests I can see someone running Elite first. But starting at around level 10 things do get harder. Heck, at any level elite bookbinder rescue is nearly impossible unless you can handle traps. And the 2nd to last one in the Sharn Syndicate chain is nearly impossible without either a trapper, evasion, or blind luck. how many single players have high enough stats at that level to check every podium for traps to find the right one?

[Lauf]

Instead of bravery, how about an Explorer bonus?

I like your proposal. +1

[Gorijun]

Instead of bravery, how about an Explorer bonus?

I like this idea.

[cru121]

This doesn't really solve the issue of it still being better to do elite first.
Indeed. But if you decide that grouping is more fun than soloing, you don't have to abandon your streak. You just lose some exp in that particular quest.

[Kawai]

nice
+1

[Red_Knight]

Indeed. But if you decide that grouping is more fun than soloing, you don't have to abandon your streak. You just lose some exp in that particular quest.

Or if, as I pointed out, you can't open on elite you don't lose out on xp. Really, IMO bravery bonus just encourages people to be reckless and run things they aren't prepared for. A new player who decided to go vip from the get go can open Elite right away. But should they? Their health is low, they're damage output is low, and their AC is going to be a load of carp in Elite. In all honesty a new first life character can handle normal, and maybe hard right away. But Elite is pushing it and requires resources that new character probably doesn't have yet.

That's not true for all quests. Some are easier then others. Others are far harder then they should be. Elite canath crystal for example is a pain in the rear due to the mages being able to one shot the crystal. A TR already knows the quests in question, and how to deal with it. They also have extra power in the form of more stat points and possibly decent gear for that level.

It's kind of like how you don't hit level 20 then immediately start running Epic Elite. Sure, you can do it. But it's a really bad idea cause you aren't geared for that level of challenge yet.

[Qhualor]

Honestly I would just assume to pause your streak if you do run a lower difficulty than to go though all that trouble. This already happens if you have a higher level in your group. Cap the number at 5 and running a lower difficulty subtracts 1 point. Get to 0 you lose your streak and have to build it up again to 5. If it's above 0 and run quests on a higher difficulty again, you keep the streak. The streak only pauses if you run a lower difficulty and keep it above 0.

[Lonnbeimnech]

It's kind of like how you don't hit level 20 then immediately start running Epic Elite. Sure, you can do it. But it's a really bad idea cause you aren't geared for that level of challenge yet.

Assuming you played through from 1-20, then you have probably run many of the epic quests on the heroic difficulty already, and can run them on epic norm if you want without upsetting your bravery bonus. Even if it's an iconic life there are probably a few epic quests that you've already run on heroic, like lod chain, wheloon and gianthold.

[dunklezhan]

I like the concept of bravery streaks very much but it really has led to problems. How about: the changes you suggest, and keep bravery streaks... but apply them to Guild Renown earned during the quest.

Also, make loss of the survival bonus personal only.

Those three measures should boost LFMs, guildies playing together (which is a challenge in small or newer guilds with people in different level ranges where they may then be more inclined to keep their toons in line with each other) openness to different difficulties, make it more new player friendly... I can't see any downsides (but then I am also not someone who has the faintest idea how to farm guild renown. It may be exploitable to add the renown option).

[Red_Knight]

Assuming you played through from 1-20, then you have probably run many of the epic quests on the heroic difficulty already, and can run them on epic norm if you want without upsetting your bravery bonus. Even if it's an iconic life there are probably a few epic quests that you've already run on heroic, like lod chain, wheloon and gianthold.

The epic mentioning was a pointing out of how you don't hit level 20 then run THE hardest difficulty, which is known to test the best of the best, right away.

Vets who run elite first either have another char funneling gear to the character, are TR who craft their lowbie gear, or otherwise are geared far better then a new first lifer.

[Cantor]

Oxarhamar has the point. The problem is that after first time it's not worth running.
I would like to see all the bonuses go away (except daily bonus I guess) to be replaced with better thought out base xp. The difference between norm and elite base xp is insignificant vs the time/challenge.

But this a quest by quest problem thus too much dev time, so I'm aware it prob won't ever happen.

von3/spies/etc: norm needs to go down, hard ok (I guess), elite increased. Norm farm quests that give 5+ times the xp/min on a second daily run compared to a quest on EBB is wrong. Before you trash me about suggesting taking away the xp farm; most people farming norm could farm hard exactly as fast anyway, norm to hard difference dwarfed by the time just running around.

The only reason I like BB at all is that many quests are terrible xp even with elite BB, and totally un-runable without it from xp point of view. I like being able to run everything once on elite instead of vale 6 times.

[Connman]

I would like to see some other type of bonus instead. I find myself streaking a little too much as well.
http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah42/bc7902098/ScreenShot00220_zpsp8yuaruj.jpg
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http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah42/bc7902098/ScreenShot00227_zpsryh8xx44.jpg

[Rhysem]

von3/spies/etc: norm needs to go down, hard ok (I guess), elite increased. Norm farm quests that give 5+ times the xp/min on a second daily run compared to a quest on EBB is wrong. Before you trash me about suggesting taking away the xp farm; most people farming norm could farm hard exactly as fast anyway, norm to hard difference dwarfed by the time just running around.

There's lots more than von and spies to put it mildly. I started tracking xp/min data for my usual group and it was eye opening.

While I don't mind the idea of differentiating the xp per difficulty more, I'd rather see it done by boosting H/E than dropping N. Gimps happen, even to good players, there's no reason to beat them up for it.

It would be nice to see better xp per unit time and average quest length across the game. 18 and 19 are such a snorefest on a third lifer, all the good xp quests there tend to be long, so if you only have 15 or 20 minutes there's not much to do except maybe diddle around in a slayers or run your two/three daily giant's vaults.


+1 to the OP, though. Getting streak out of that position would be great.

[HAL]

This doesn't really solve the issue of it still being better to do elite first. If the explorer was a flat 75% it wouldn't matter if you did normal, hard, elite, or elite, hard, normal; the disincentive of doing something other than elite first would finally be gone.

While this is true, in my opinion the biggest problem with the Bravery Bonus is that people don't want to break their streak. They don't want to help out someone else, do a single quest on a lower difficulty for whatever reason, or join a group just for fun, because they lose the streak bonus. Something like the OP seems to offer a solution to that issue which I would love.

[Coyopa]

The epic mentioning was a pointing out of how you don't hit level 20 then run THE hardest difficulty, which is known to test the best of the best, right away.

Vets who run elite first either have another char funneling gear to the character, are TR who craft their lowbie gear, or otherwise are geared far better then a new first lifer.

Sorry, this is wrong. I've run elite on first life characters who I have chosen not to twink (in fact, chosen to start on snowy side Korthos like a complete newbie to the game because it's fun to once in a while be reminded what it was like). Meta knowledge is more important than build or gear. You mentioned Cannith Crystal. Casters in that quest don't get a chance to shoot at the crystal because I'm already standing next to where they spawn, swinging away. So, they've got bigger problems on their hands as soon as they show up than whether or not the crystal still stands.

[Coyopa]

~snip~
The only reason I like BB at all is that many quests are terrible xp even with elite BB, and totally un-runable without it from xp point of view. I like being able to run everything once on elite instead of vale 6 times.

This. 100% this. I remember the days where I ran Vale elite, hard, and normal to farm out the experience. I also remember how I banked 18 until I was almost 19 in order to minimize the work required to get to 20 after taking 18. It's actually a mind-set I have yet to shed, which I think annoys walkin_dude sometimes since I work hard to bank a level and keep it banked for as long as possible. I'm slowly getting better, but I think it'll be a long time.

[Red_Knight]

Can't remember, but wasn't bravery bonus originally added when true reincarnation was introduced, to make the grind for 2nd life and onward less of a pain?

[Coyopa]

Can't remember, but wasn't bravery bonus originally added when true reincarnation was introduced, to make the grind for 2nd life and onward less of a pain?

It was introduced after TR'ing had been around at least a bit. I'd been playing at least 6 months and had already done one TR and started on another at the point where they introduced the bravery bonus.

[Red_Knight]

Yeah, I thought I remembered devs saying something about bravery bonus being to ease the level grind on TRing. It was never intended to completely exclude running normal and hard, just be an option to ease the higher xp requirement.

[walkin_dude]

It was introduced after TR'ing had been around at least a bit. I'd been playing at least 6 months and had already done one TR and started on another at the point where they introduced the bravery bonus.

Yep, I came along after you, and I also remember when bb was introduced.

Also, it doesn't bother me.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

it looks like doing elite once or e/h/n would still be the best way to earn xp, so im not really sure that this solves the problem.

which makes me wonder, is the only solution to making groups more frequent, accessible, and enjoyable for noobs to make normal just as valuable xp wise as elite? and if thats the case doesnt it present a whole new set of issues which may or may not actually make the game better?

[Sebastrd]

I really like this idea. It still incentivizes doing elite first, but removes the punishment of breaking streak to run with friends who are doing a lower difficulty. It's simple and elegant, as most good ideas are.

[Red_Knight]

Sorry, this is wrong. I've run elite on first life characters who I have chosen not to twink (in fact, chosen to start on snowy side Korthos like a complete newbie to the game because it's fun to once in a while be reminded what it was like). Meta knowledge is more important than build or gear. You mentioned Cannith Crystal. Casters in that quest don't get a chance to shoot at the crystal because I'm already standing next to where they spawn, swinging away. So, they've got bigger problems on their hands as soon as they show up than whether or not the crystal still stands.

As have I. But doing so is a challenge. I've been soloing sorcerers off and since launch for the challenge. Some classes have an easier time going into Elite when under geared. A fighter or paladin wearing full plate and using a good shield for example will likely be taking less damage, unless the dice gods hate them. Tactics can make a difference too. I always target casters first because spells ignore your AC, and tend to hit like a mack truck.

But even then there will be quests where you'd be thinking "Don't know if I can handle Elite on my own yet". Or at least there should be. Bravery Bonus in my opinion encourages the mind set of "I need to run Elite to keep my bravery bonus", not "Can I handle elite". Maybe it should be renamed "reckless bonus"?

[Uska]

Can't remember, but wasn't bravery bonus originally added when true reincarnation was introduced, to make the grind for 2nd life and onward less of a pain?

No but they did add the mechanic so a 1st tr could open hard and a 2nd tr could open elite to make it easier for them to get an elite or hard streak

[Gremmlynn]

The epic mentioning was a pointing out of how you don't hit level 20 then run THE hardest difficulty, which is known to test the best of the best, right away.

Vets who run elite first either have another char funneling gear to the character, are TR who craft their lowbie gear, or otherwise are geared far better then a new first lifer.I'm guessing you don't run much epic content. Vets who run EE right off the bat are on TRed characters who are in fully trained and synergistic to build destinies with twists in place.

Gear has a lot less to do with it as good enough ML 20 gear is practically given away in Eveningstar.

[Gremmlynn]

I've, personally, been an advocate of simply hard coding full streak bonus for all bravery qualified runs and eliminating the whole concept of the streak. Hell, even capping the counter at 5 would help as it removes the psychological aversion to losing a, mechanically, pointlessly high streak.


That still doesn't help with players simply not wanting to run quests below elite due to having to run more than once to get the full favor. But it is a step in the right direction.

[Red_Knight]

I'm guessing you don't run much epic content. Vets who run EE right off the bat are on TRed characters who are in fully trained and synergistic to build destinies with twists in place.

Gear has a lot less to do with it as good enough ML 20 gear is practically given away in Eveningstar.

My first lev 20 is Venoma Hammerfist, a first life drow monk. She's currently 21, and I'm grinding out tokens of the twelve so I can TR her into warlock once that goes live. I'm running Epic Normal mostly, occasionally Epic Hard too depending on the quest. Just finished Don't Drink the Water a couple days ago, and am looking for the entrance of the next quest in the saga in the Underdark when not running epic normal in Stormreach to get tokens.

Yes, it took me far too long IMO to find the entrances to Unquiet Graves and Finding the Thread.

So yeah, you just proved my point. People aren't entering Epic Elite the second they hit 20 and expecting to do well. They're doing so with fully twinked characters with multiple past lives and fully developed epic destinies. Someone who's just hit level 20 and picked an epic destiny for the first time would be committing suicide if they tried doing the same thing.

[Vulkoorex]

Get rid of Casual, Normal, and Hard.

[EllisDee37]

This doesn't really solve the issue of it still being better to do elite first. If the explorer was a flat 75% it wouldn't matter if you did normal, hard, elite, or elite, hard, normal; the disincentive of doing something other than elite first would finally be gone.My thinking was to preserve the total amount of xp in the game. Just making a flat +75% explorer bonus would add a bunch of xp to the game for all styles except elite first.

I don't see a problem with incentivizing elite first; the favor mechanic already is a huge incentive to do elite first because it encourages elite only. The proposal in the OP retains the elite-first incentive but removes the hard- or normal-first punishment.



I would have no objection to a separate mechanic that would increase xp for repeating EE. Something like +50% to base but only on repeat runs, and only on EE. Maybe call this bonus bravery. Solely (and justifiably) to ease the burden for ETRing. Tie it to daily playthrough so that you can't just rapid-fire repeat the same EE quest to ransack.

I could almost be convinced to add a similar +25% for EH, but wouldn't complain if this were an EE-only bonus.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

The only problem I see is those who do not tend to TR --- I find they are in no rush to move up the ranks...

For those that want to move up as fast as possible, whether you TR or not ... your idea makes sense. However I would rather they simply eliminate the bonus all together. Its easier, adds time to enjoy your characters, eliminates the anti-social party element.

With time saved, the devs can focus on CHALLENGE, which I think it the #1 issue in the game right now.

[pjw]

Nice idea.

So many changes to this game have been Anti-Social. Breaking those down would be a great move.

The next one to fix would be scaling: back in the day (when heroic Elite was actually tricky at level), we used to run guild groups then pug the last 1-3 spots because "more DPS was always better". Now, I don't pug much because it's easier with a small team (or solo).

Any idea on that one? I have started a thread here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461372-Idea-for-change-in-scaling) to avoid derailing this one...

[Red_Knight]

Nice idea.

So many changes to this game have been Anti-Social. Breaking those down would be a great move.

The next one to fix would be scaling: back in the day (when heroic Elite was actually tricky at level), we used to run guild groups then pug the last 1-3 spots because "more DPS was always better". Now, I don't pug much because it's easier with a small team (or solo).

Any idea on that one? I have started a thread here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461372-Idea-for-change-in-scaling) to avoid derailing this one...

Sadly, that is a direct consequence of why scaling was added. It's intention was to make things easier for solo players. That said, Elite isn't suppose to scale with party size, only normal and hard are. Or at least it wasn't suppose to. It was suppose to be that Elite would be set as if a 6 man party, even if solo.

[Coyopa]

I've, personally, been an advocate of simply hard coding full streak bonus for all bravery qualified runs and eliminating the whole concept of the streak. Hell, even capping the counter at 5 would help as it removes the psychological aversion to losing a, mechanically, pointlessly high streak.


That still doesn't help with players simply not wanting to run quests below elite due to having to run more than once to get the full favor. But it is a step in the right direction.

For some small subset of the players, the number of elite quests they've completed in a row matters to them. This is not the case for most people. I don't care how many I've run in a row once I get to 5. I only care that I keep the maximum bonus going. On occasion, I'll happen to notice what my total elite streak for that life is and, when I do, it's just "Oh wow." and that's the end of it. I'm not sure why so many people think that virtually everyone who maintains a bravery streak cares whether they've got 5, 15, or 500 elite quests done in a row. I usually surrender my elite streak after 20th level and maintain a hard streak, instead.

[Coyopa]

~snip~adds time to enjoy your characters~snip~

Thanks, but I already have plenty of time to enjoy my characters on the way to 20 with the system we have. My play time is already limited to mostly the weekend and, even then, about 4 hours on Saturday and Sunday morning provided nothing else is going on in my life. I neither need nor want to level slower just because you think people need more time to enjoy their characters. Of all the reasons to scrap the current system and put something new in place, this is just about the worst one anyone could offer.

[Gremmlynn]

I would have no objection to a separate mechanic that would increase xp for repeating EE. Something like +50% to base but only on repeat runs, and only on EE. Maybe call this bonus bravery. Solely (and justifiably) to ease the burden for ETRing. Tie it to daily playthrough so that you can't just rapid-fire repeat the same EE quest to ransack."Burden of ETRing"? Do you mean playing the game?

That's an easy one to avoid, just don't play the game.

[Gremmlynn]

For some small subset of the players, the number of elite quests they've completed in a row matters to them. This is not the case for most people. I don't care how many I've run in a row once I get to 5. I only care that I keep the maximum bonus going. On occasion, I'll happen to notice what my total elite streak for that life is and, when I do, it's just "Oh wow." and that's the end of it. I'm not sure why so many people think that virtually everyone who maintains a bravery streak cares whether they've got 5, 15, or 500 elite quests done in a row. I usually surrender my elite streak after 20th level and maintain a hard streak, instead.Mostly because I've seen not wanting to break triple digit+ streaks as an excuse not to join groups to often to not think that.

Personally I don't pay bravery much mind at all as xp is such a constant in the game. Hell, they give it out simply for logging in if that's your thing.

[EllisDee37]

"Burden of ETRing"? Do you mean playing the game?

That's an easy one to avoid, just don't play the game.No need to stop playing; just stick to heroics. It works for me.

[Gremmlynn]

No need to stop playing; just stick to heroics. It works for me.I just play the game and everything else takes care of itself.

[Coyopa]

Mostly because I've seen not wanting to break triple digit+ streaks as an excuse not to join groups to often to not think that.

Personally I don't pay bravery much mind at all as xp is such a constant in the game. Hell, they give it out simply for logging in if that's your thing.

Well, I don't run hard or normal because I don't want to give up the experience bonus for having an elite streak. By the time I'm around 12th or 14th level (at the latest), I've got a triple digit elite streak going. Yes, this means I'm not going to join a group that is running something on hard or normal where the group composition would cause my streak to break. I still don't believe that a majority of players care about the actual streak number; rather, I think they care the bonus remain at max. I suspect you're running into players on different alts, which makes it seem like a larger number of players care about their streak number. Either that or the players who do care about it are concentrated in the levels you mostly play.

[Gremmlynn]

Well, I don't run hard or normal because I don't want to give up the experience bonus for having an elite streak. By the time I'm around 12th or 14th level (at the latest), I've got a triple digit elite streak going. Yes, this means I'm not going to join a group that is running something on hard or normal where the group composition would cause my streak to break. I still don't believe that a majority of players care about the actual streak number; rather, I think they care the bonus remain at max. I suspect you're running into players on different alts, which makes it seem like a larger number of players care about their streak number. Either that or the players who do care about it are concentrated in the levels you mostly play.Or you aren't running into them because you won't break their streaks.

That said, if what you say is true, what would it hurt to stop tracking it at 5? Though, personally, I think removing the whole concept of the streak would have a greater positive effect on grouping.

[EllisDee37]

I just play the game and everything else takes care of itself.I'm not sure what your point was, then.

For comparison, the devs lowered the second and third life xp curves to ease the burden on heroic TRing.

I personally don't ETR, but others in the thread have mentioned that not being able to run for bravery after an ETR is a problem. I was just brainstorming a suggestion for them.

Best I can tell, you're saying that the game is perfect, if you don't like it don't play it, nothing needs to change. If so, that's totally fine, everyone gets an opinion.

[Uska]

All they need to do is cap streak at 5 for max bonus and instead of breaking it just goes down by one for each quest you do that wouldn't continue the streak. So you could go up and down without it being a big deal

[Coyopa]

Or you aren't running into them because you won't break their streaks.

That said, if what you say is true, what would it hurt to stop tracking it at 5? Though, personally, I think removing the whole concept of the streak would have a greater positive effect on grouping.

No, sorry. It's not because I won't break their streaks. It's because either the number of people concerned about that number are low (lower than you seem to think) or they're at different levels than I am. I've been in groups with people where I was going to run something on hard (usually epic hard) and they didn't want to break their streak yet, and so they left the group. Even in those cases, they never mentioned anything about their huge number. They only cared about not giving up the experience bonus.

It wouldn't hurt to stop incrementing the number after the number five is reached. I don't care one way or the other about that. If the devs change it to stop incrementing, fine with me. Again, I only care about the experience bonus. Like I said, the few times I actually really notice the number, it's more of a "Huh. Well, would you look at that?" kind of a moment and then I proceed to enter the quest and put the number out of my head. Usually, the quest entrance dialog isn't open long enough because it's only open long enough for me to select "elite" and enter the quest.

[Coyopa]

All they need to do is cap streak at 5 for max bonus and instead of breaking it just goes down by one for each quest you do that wouldn't continue the streak. So you could go up and down without it being a big deal

This is a fine idea. I could afford to give up 10% experience for a quest or two. It's giving up 25% experience that starts to hurt, especially since it takes 6 quests to build back up to the full bonus. So, with the way it is now, it's not just 25% experience I'm giving up. I'm giving up 25% for three quests, then 20% for one quest, then 10% for another quest, and then I'm finally back at the full bonus. That gets to be a pretty significant amount of experience, especially if you're doing high value quests.

[morkahn82]

I am bored of learning new bonus systems. The current is not so bad, please stick to it.

[Theolin]

While this is true, in my opinion the biggest problem with the Bravery Bonus is that people don't want to break their streak. They don't want to help out someone else, do a single quest on a lower difficulty for whatever reason, or join a group just for fun, because they lose the streak bonus. Something like the OP seems to offer a solution to that issue which I would love.

Since I dislike the behavior that happens due to bravery I agree with this, get pretty much the same bonus but this way it doesn't matter too much if you break it for a couple of quests

[voodoogroves]

What about something crazy like ...

- Remove the streak bonuses completely; keep some of the first-time bonuses esp. those tied to paid-things (someone smarter than me do the math). Sure this radically drops the XP, but ...
- Set XP on all heroic lives to 1.9M

[EllisDee37]

What about something crazy like ...

- Remove the streak bonuses completely; keep some of the first-time bonuses esp. those tied to paid-things (someone smarter than me do the math). Sure this radically drops the XP, but ...
- Set XP on all heroic lives to 1.9MIn a larger sense, if I can run every quest at level on elite once and then take the next level, lather rinse repeat, I'm all good.

Heck, they could remove heroic xp from the game entirely and just make leveling automatic once you finish each quest (not raid) at level and I'd be perfectly content. No need to require elite, even; run them all once on normal and take your level. Done and done. I'd still only run elite for favor, but others could just do normal.

[General_Gronker]

It's simple and elegant, as most good ideas are.

Well, it's simple, yes. It doesn't solve any problems, not that there is a problem here to solve.

[PsychoBlonde]

interesting.

how would this work with daily playthrough bonus? (or in my sleep addled mind did I miss something?)

how would this work with ransack?

I ask because IIRC you can do EBB w/ daily playthrough first and that would seemingly skew the results towards running elite first anyways.

Yeah, the first-time run for Elite is so much higher than anything else that you'd still be an idiot to run anything but Elite first. I don't see *anything* about this proposal that would "encourage" grouping--freeing people to run on Hard or Normal (which vets can solo EFFORTLESSLY) would, if anything, DISCOURAGE it even MORE. People post for elite because it's often better to have help for elite quests even if you can solo them.

If you want to encourage grouping, they should finish implementing that feature we were promised way back in the day where people could join your group and instantly teleport to the door of the quest. The public grouping thing might actually be NICE instead of a pain, especially if they let you set the group LEVELS that got posted. Being able to just hop in a quest and have an appropriate LFM go up for that specific quest would be a DELIGHT.

And how about they stop making quest chains where the last quest cannot be taken until you do the preceding ones? Just let us to any/all of the quests in whatever order we please. Yes, often you can "red-door" it . . . if there's a door and it's not the type of quest you have to talk to an NPC to get in. This alone would be a big help. I can't tell you the number of times I've skipped joining groups because they were on the 2nd quest of a 4-part chain where I wouldn't be able to join for the last one. I'm also quite reluctant to put up an lfm past the first quest in a chain for precisely this reason--if someone doesn't make it in the door, we either have to repeat that quest for them or they have to leave before the finale. That's no good.

[Deadlock]

Yeah, the first-time run for Elite is so much higher than anything else that you'd still be an idiot to run anything but Elite first. I don't see *anything* about this proposal that would "encourage" grouping--freeing people to run on Hard or Normal (which vets can solo EFFORTLESSLY) would, if anything, DISCOURAGE it even MORE. People post for elite because it's often better to have help for elite quests even if you can solo them.

The reality is that you would need to do away with the concept of a "first time bonus" entirely and make it a "first time at this difficulty bonus" - without major nerfs to existing bonusses it does mean more xp overall. Once upon a time I'd have objected to this, but now I'm much more relaxed about it seeing the total amount of potential XP available (and that's without pots).

This takes you a step closer to what we had back in the day when you would tackle content on Normal first ... then Hard ... and then if your group seemed capable or were just brave enough you'd go for Elite.

Right now we have ... Elite ... next ...

[sirgog]

This is actually a really good idea.

It keeps all the positives of the bravery bonus - quest variety, and a remedy to the previous situation where the XP system encouraged you to run normal difficulty even if you could handle elite, which encouraged mindless grinding of normal.

It addresses the feelbad moment of breaking a streak by simply removing the issue altogether. (Breaking a streak when you aren't able to form a group is always better than sitting around idle not questing because the streak is worth only 150% of base XP spread over the next 5 quests you do, and running three quick normals with first time bonuses while you would have been idle will give you much more than that).

[Gremmlynn]

I'm not sure what your point was, then.

For comparison, the devs lowered the second and third life xp curves to ease the burden on heroic TRing.

I personally don't ETR, but others in the thread have mentioned that not being able to run for bravery after an ETR is a problem. I was just brainstorming a suggestion for them.

Best I can tell, you're saying that the game is perfect, if you don't like it don't play it, nothing needs to change. If so, that's totally fine, everyone gets an opinion.No, what I'm saying is that everything we get from playing the game only helps with playing the game and is had by playing the game. So, I just play the game and everything else is simply a beneficial side effect of and to doing so.

I will say if one finds playing the game a burden when all they get from it are things that are useful while playing the game, they might question the rationality of their actions. After all, if one finds playing the game itself a burden, what use gaining all those things that playing it gets them when they are only useful to playing the game they find a burden?

That seems to like competing in a hot dog eating contest in order to win a life times supply of hot dogs. If one likes hot dogs, it's a great regardless of the prize and if they don't the prize offers no real incentive to do so.

[IronClan]

Instead of bravery, how about an Explorer bonus? You get Explorer the first time you run a quest in a life. Explorer doubles the difficulty-based first time bonus. At the same time, change the elite first time bonus from 80% to 75% and normal from 25% to 20%.

This works out to essentially the same bonus as bravery, plus a slight boost for running normal first. It retains all the benefits of bravery (encouraging running a variety of quests) while removing the anti-grouping features of bravery. (Reluctant to join a normal or hard group if you haven't run elite yet.)

Really it just boils down to the "fold the bravery bonus into first time bonus" concept, but in a fully fleshed out way. The net effect is that the streak goes away, and the bravery description in the xp report gets shortened and becomes easier to understand. Something along the lines of:


I think EllisDee's idea is excellent. Make it so.

[EllisDee37]

I will say if one finds playing the game a burden when all they get from it are things that are useful while playing the game, they might question the rationality of their actions. After all, if one finds playing the game itself a burden, what use gaining all those things that playing it gets them when they are only useful to playing the game they find a burden? I think you're getting hung up on semantics. As I said, they reduced the heroic xp curves for hero and legend lives to ease the burden of heroic TRing. Does that wording raise the same red flags for you? If so, do you advocate returning to the previous xp curves?



EllisDee's ideaCredit for the core of the idea goes to Chai. At least that's where I remember seeing it. My contribution is the concept of doubling the first time difficulty bonus as a way to streamline/simplify the bonuses.

[voodoogroves]

I also wouldn't be against keeping the big trap, secret door, conquest and ransack bonuses to encourage grouping up and splitting the work - and adding a teamwork bonus of another 20-30 if 6 players show up on the XP report in at least 2 places (kills, brekables, traps, detection .... deaths) as a means to encourage grouping.

[Catteras]

I like the idea of bravery bonus going away and replaced with something like this. It should be noted that your idea will not get people to run normal first. I'll still run elite first, especially because I pretty much "one and done" every quest I run. There are a few that I'll run a couple times because I think they're fun, and I can count them on one hand. I don't think there is anyone who needs to milk a quest for two runs, let alone three.

Yes, I would still want to run my quests once and done on elite so I'd get the favor and TPs. However, the freedom of being able to run stuff on hard or normal the first time would be great.

I approve of any reasonable change that removes the shackles of the bravery bonus system while maintaining the experience gained.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

What about something crazy like ...

- Remove the streak bonuses completely; keep some of the first-time bonuses esp. those tied to paid-things (someone smarter than me do the math). Sure this radically drops the XP, but ...
- Set XP on all heroic lives to 1.9M

This is the best solution, along with the quote bellow.



I also wouldn't be against keeping the big trap, secret door, conquest and ransack bonuses to encourage grouping up and splitting the work - and adding a teamwork bonus of another 20-30 if 6 players show up on the XP report in at least 2 places (kills, brekables, traps, detection .... deaths) as a means to encourage grouping.

/absolutely

That teamwork bonus is a great idea.

However I can see that being abused, so it needs to be coded right. I sadly can see a rise of multiboxing with fake f2p or mule accounts and the whole 9.

So I would make it a small enough bonus that its a benefit, but not so much that it would encourage multiboxing/macroing. The other thing is they would have to be integral to the quest. They need to either kill a certain percent, break enough boxes, detection, deaths, utilize skills via texts with NPCs, etc

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

How about also adding a "Grasshopper bonus" for completion of normal, hard and elite? :)

This way the bonus applies whenever a player completes all difficulty settings, at the leisure and play times that work for said player.

This would open up guildies helping other guildies out without losing their bonus.

[Silverleafeon]

Instead of bravery, how about an Explorer bonus? You get Explorer the first time you run a quest in a life. Explorer doubles the difficulty-based first time bonus. At the same time, change the elite first time bonus from 80% to 75% and normal from 25% to 20%.

This works out to essentially the same bonus as bravery, plus a slight boost for running normal first. It retains all the benefits of bravery (encouraging running a variety of quests) while removing the anti-grouping features of bravery. (Reluctant to join a normal or hard group if you haven't run elite yet.)

Really it just boils down to the "fold the bravery bonus into first time bonus" concept, but in a fully fleshed out way. The net effect is that the streak goes away, and the bravery description in the xp report gets shortened and becomes easier to understand. Something along the lines of:

Explorer bonus: The first time you run a quest, double your first-time difficulty bonus.




Here's a comparison of how different styles would be effected:


In the current game on live...

first time elite: +80%
first time hard: +40%
first time normal: +25%

bravery elite: +70%
bravery hard: +35%
bravery normal: +0%

elite one and done: 150%
hard one and done: 75%
hard then elite: +75% + 80% = 155%
elite then hard then normal: +150% elite + 40% hard + 25% normal = 215%
hard then normal then elite: +75% hard + 25% normal + 80% elite = 180%
normal then hard then elite: +25% normal + 40% hard + 80% elite = 145%


Replacing bravery with explorer...

first time elite: +75%
first time hard: +40%
first time normal: +20%

explorer elite: +75%
explorer hard: +40%
explorer normal: +20%

elite one and done: 150%
hard one and done: 80%
hard then elite: +80% + 80% = 160%
elite then hard then normal: +150% elite + 40% hard + 20% normal = +210%
hard then normal then elite: +80% hard + 20% normal + 75% elite = +175%
normal then hard then elite: +40% normal + 40% hard + 75% elite = 155%


This is well thought out, however here are its flaws perceived:


You claim that players will be attracted to running a quest/raid on normal before running hard or elite, yet the mechanics shown here seem the opposite. Since the explorer bonus is only active on the first running of a quest, a player would highly desire to gain it applied to the larger elite bonuses on the larger elite experience numbers just as much as in the past.


If the ability to suppress elite bravery and hard bravery are separate toggles, then your system offers little if any improvement of protecting "bravery streaks" over what the future might offer. However, it will definitely require a large amount of recoding, taking valuable dev time and presenting new bug opportunities.


Your system has absolutely no level limits involved, meaning that a typical player will always desire an elite completion first until over level limits totally locked any chance of xp gained however slight. In this matter, the design becomes more restrictive not less. An iconic already gets great xp out of Elite Heroic Von 4 (a level 11 quest with a level 15 toon).


You are introducing more overall xp bonuses into the game. If that character's level is below, equal to, or one level above the quest's level, there is no adjustment. If it's +2, there's a -10% penalty. +3 = -25%, +4 = -50%, +5 = -75%, +6 = -99%, and at +7 or higher there is no XP regardless of bonuses. As already mentioned the explorer bonus now applies for 6ish levels which is 4 more than bravery does.


The new system is easier to understand, but introduces confusion as players need to relearn the rules.


Introducing more XP bonuses into the game could reduce the amount of weekend grouping xp that the Devs feel they can splash to promote groups.


Are these changes in extension of some of the Dev's proposals? Or are they designed to ignore them. How does this relate to the changed death penalty and the possible grouping weekends?

[EllisDee37]

You claim that players will be attracted to running a quest/raid on normal before running hard or elite, yet the mechanics shown here seem the opposite. Since the explorer bonus is only active on the first running of a quest, a player would highly desire to gain it applied to the larger elite bonuses on the larger elite experience numbers just as much as in the past.I'm unaware of making such a claim. The concept is to replicate bravery with a simple first-time bonus mechanic.


If the ability to suppress elite bravery and hard bravery are separate toggles, then your system offers little if any improvement of protecting "bravery streaks" over what the future might offer. However, it will definitely require a large amount of recoding, taking valuable dev time and presenting new bug opportunities.This proposal would replace bravery. If implemented, bravery and streaks would go away. Not sure why you think it would require a large amount of coding. It would likely be very small.


Your system has absolutely no level limits involved, meaning that a typical player will always desire an elite completion first until over level limits totally locked any chance of xp gained however slight. In this matter, the design becomes more restrictive not less. An iconic already gets great xp out of Elite Heroic Von 4 (a level 11 quest with a level 15 toon).Meh, so add level limits. Make it only work in the same level range as bravery does now.


Introducing more XP bonuses into the game could reduce the amount of weekend grouping xp that the Devs feel they can splash to promote groups.This proposal is designed to offer the same xp as bravery.


Are these changes in extension of some of the Dev's proposals? Or are they designed to ignore them. How does this relate to the changed death penalty and the possible grouping weekends?[/list]This thread was posted a month before the current dev plan to add a bravery suppression NPC was made public. The intention is to replace bravery with a simple "first run" bonus.