New to the game and getting up there in levels, what should I be doing?

[BeldVanGuard]

Ello folks,

2 Friends recently got me back into this game (Haven't played since release, glad to see so much has changed in a positive way!) and I've been trying to level up my Cleric to group with them (They're 23 Swashbuckler and 22 Palemaster) and I'm getting close, hit level 17 last night.

However, with as much content as the game has, including old content becoming new with Epic Level options etc, trying to figure out what to do, where to go, what to get etc, is quite daunting. Obviously I've been doing my research, but so much info is outdated now, and the Cleric build updates seem to have even veterans confused as to where to take their Cleric build and gear wise, so I figured I'd come here, say hello, and get a little direction

So the quick stuff

While I'm new to DDO, I've been playing DnD for the better part of 25 years. In 2nd and 3rd Edition I very often play Dwarven Fighter Clerics. However not everything that works in actual DnD works in DDO, so had some experimenting
My 2 friends are obviously an odd combination of classes. Both are squishy as all get out, but the Swashbuckler's DPS is insane, and the Palemaster can insta-kill so much stuff it's ridiculous.
So based on their obvious missing gaps of healing and someone who can take a hit, and my history of playing Fighter/Clerics, I'm the psuedo tank and healer for the group

I didn't want to get into any extreme multi-class strategy builds, least not for starters, so I've went with 18Clr / 2 Ftr build

So Melee/Tank Cleric more or less, and obviously been soloing
Currently at 15 Clr / 2 Ftr

Feats:
Toughness
Empowered Healing
Mental Toughness
Improved Mental Toughness
Shield Mastery (Fighter Feat)
Improved Shield Mastery (Fighter Feat)
Quicken Spell
Lightning Reflexes (I'm told this doesn't scale well in DDO, and should replace it)

Enhancements:
33 Radiant Servant (First 4 Core, The Aura, think it's all standard here)
11 Stalwart Defender (Toughness, All Armor/Shield increasing skills, no stance stuff)
6 Warpriest (First 2 Core, Toughness, will be going into Wall of Steel)
15 Dwarf (All Core, Axe Mastery (using Dwarven Axes) Armor bonus, going for Throw your weight around)

Gear of Note:
Templar's Justice (Dwarven Axe)
Templar's Bulwark (Tower Shield)
Shadowsight (Goggles, Normal Difficulty)
Elemental Victory (Helm)
Hero's Plate (Full plate, also have the CHA platemail from Mechtarum)

Currently at just under 500hp, 72AC, and 1300 Mana
32 Con, 30 Wis, 28 Point Character (but I did get a few tomes)

So basically, any direction from veteran players or clerics would be most appreciated. Gear/goals I should be going for. Problems the build can / will run into. Dungeons I should be doing. Should I be messing with crafting?
I don't own every Adventure pack, but for discussion sake, let's say I have them all.

Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated. I'm on the newer German server I'm told, so the playerbase of people I can ask for input there is a tad low heh.

Thanks kindly folks!

[FranOhmsford]

You'll have a heck of a time trying to be a healer for a Pale Master - The range of Harm and Inflict spells is much smaller than that of Heal and Cure spells.

A Bard and a PM should both have quite strong self-healing abilities anyway and what you throw them will most likely be seen as a bonus so I suspect there's little need for you to go all out on Heals.

AC is marginal in DDO these days unless you can get it to monstrous numbers - The PRR and Saves from your Stance is far far superior if you're short on points than the tiny bonuses to AC from those Shield and Armour enhancements.

DC wise you're def going to have problems on a 28pt Cleric - I'd have suggested going Charisma/Con rather than Wis/Con, take Extra Turning and Improved Turning over the Mental Toughness Feats and forget about DC Casting entirely.
But assuming you're not willing to do a complete re-build I'd say forget about pushing your Wisdom and put your level ups into Con for your melee damage from this point on.

[BeldVanGuard]

You'll have a heck of a time trying to be a healer for a Pale Master - The range of Harm and Inflict spells is much smaller than that of Heal and Cure spells.

A Bard and a PM should both have quite strong self-healing abilities anyway and what you throw them will most likely be seen as a bonus so I suspect there's little need for you to go all out on Heals.

AC is marginal in DDO these days unless you can get it to monstrous numbers - The PRR and Saves from your Stance is far far superior if you're short on points than the tiny bonuses to AC from those Shield and Armour enhancements.

DC wise you're def going to have problems on a 28pt Cleric - I'd have suggested going Charisma/Con rather than Wis/Con, take Extra Turning and Improved Turning over the Mental Toughness Feats and forget about DC Casting entirely.
But assuming you're not willing to do a complete re-build I'd say forget about pushing your Wisdom and put your level ups into Con for your melee damage from this point on.

He doesn't stand in an Undead Form usually. Before I came along they'd both have Cleric Henchmen so he's used to that.
Neither of them seem to have much in the way of self heals, I'll have to ask them about that

I've heard about the AC issue, but it seems (to me, a noob mind you) that it's fairly easy to get insane levels of AC. What would you say is the "Soft Cap" for AC mattering right now?
The stances all affected Spell Casting time that I read, doesn't that cause some...well severe problems?
Yeah I heard later on nothing will fail any saves they make vs my spells with this build, so that I'm prepared for. It's also why I opted for the partial melee build.
The last few levels I have indeed been pumping the CON up

Thanks kindly!

[Lonnbeimnech]

Stalwart stance does not effect casting times or cooldowns or sp cost. The feat combat expertise does effect cooldowns. You would see a dramatic increase in your tankyness if you took another fighter level and turned on the stance.

As far as ac, yeah you can get to really high numbers, and in heroic content (stuff under level 20) it works quite well. In epic content it is less effective, and in epic elite content it really doesn't do much, even if you are running around with 250 ac.

Friendly tip: I played pen and paper too, for several years. Take all the pen and paper knowledge and put it away. This is not pen and paper dungeons and dragons, this is a video game based on PnP.

[UurlockYgmeov]

advice: just have fun, when you stop having fun change something. :D

[BeldVanGuard]

Stalwart stance does not effect casting times or cooldowns or sp cost. The feat combat expertise does effect cooldowns. You would see a dramatic increase in your tankyness if you took another fighter level and turned on the stance.

As far as ac, yeah you can get to really high numbers, and in heroic content (stuff under level 20) it works quite well. In epic content it is less effective, and in epic elite content it really doesn't do much, even if you are running around with 250 ac.

Friendly tip: I played pen and paper too, for several years. Take all the pen and paper knowledge and put it away. This is not pen and paper dungeons and dragons, this is a video game based on PnP.

Hrmm I'll have to check into this. Again mind you, much of the info I read is old, but I read in several places giving up the 18th level of Cleric would very negatively affect my spell pool and access. Is taking the 3rd level of FTR to unlock the stance worth that?
Ah yeah I'm still obviously doing under level 20 stuff. However even mobs over CR 20 and Hard modes for all (and several elites) the AC has been doing it's job. I'm guessing in Epic levels, monsters AB just fly off the handle?
Yeah I think I can pass 100AC no problem....but 250...that won't happen lol

I have indeed been learning most PnP knowledge beyond a decent idea of what's different isn't helping heh

[BeldVanGuard]

advice: just have fun, when you stop having fun change something. :D

Oh that isn't an issue. Been having plenty of fun (Well least once I got out of the low level old design content, god it's awful) just trying to plan ahead, work with what I can do, and avoid any obvious pitfalls and problems

Any gear/farming recommendations? Finding "Good Cleric items" searches have yielded very odd and usually outdated information heh

[SirValentine]

You'll have a heck of a time trying to be a healer for a Pale Master - The range of Harm and Inflict spells is much smaller than that of Heal and Cure spells.


Single-target Inflict, yes, tiny range. Harm and Mass Inflict, no real range issue.

[SirValentine]

Hrmm I'll have to check into this. Again mind you, much of the info I read is old, but I read in several places giving up the 18th level of Cleric would very negatively affect my spell pool and access. Is taking the 3rd level of FTR to unlock the stance worth that?


For a melee build, I don't think the spell slots or SP is that much of an issue. The stance would be worth it.

[cru121]

* AC works very nicely in heroics and it is definitely worth it.
* Stalwart stance is the way to go.
* You will discover sooner or later that your DPS is quite low

Feats:
* Pick up Improved Critical: Slashing asap
* If you have 13 strength (base+tome), pick up power attack and cleaves instead of (mental) toughnesses

Split: Do one of the following
* 17 / 3 Fighter
* 16 / 4 if you have AP for T4 in Stalwart
* 15 / 2 / 3 Paladin (if lawful good). pick up stance from pally. and also kotc cores and cleave, and perhaps vanguard, tho AP is tight

If you need any resources on Wayfinder (such as siberys dragonshards for feat respec), please don't hesitate to send an in-game mail to Dyfenbachia. I can also craft you some gear if you need to fill some gaps.

[FranOhmsford]

Single-target Inflict, yes, tiny range. Harm and Mass Inflict, no real range issue.

Unless it's been changed Harm is certainly shorter range than Heal! {It may have been changed at some point but when using it on mobs it still won't work at any sort of range!}.

WHY would the OP even TAKE Mass Inflicts?
He's gonna be running with ONE PM and a Bard!
Mass Inflict would be an inane waste of spell points!

[BeldVanGuard]

* AC works very nicely in heroics and it is definitely worth it.
* Stalwart stance is the way to go.
* You will discover sooner or later that your DPS is quite low

Feats:
* Pick up Improved Critical: Slashing asap
* If you have 13 strength (base+tome), pick up power attack and cleaves instead of (mental) toughnesses

Split: Do one of the following
* 17 / 3 Fighter
* 16 / 4 if you have AP for T4 in Stalwart
* 15 / 2 / 3 Paladin (if lawful good). pick up stance from pally. and also kotc cores and cleave, and perhaps vanguard, tho AP is tight

If you need any resources on Wayfinder (such as siberys dragonshards for feat respec), please don't hesitate to send an in-game mail to Dyfenbachia. I can also craft you some gear if you need to fill some gaps.

I'm now level 18 and went with level 3 FTR. Ok yeah, Stalwart Stance is amazing. It sucks that it's so not well explained until you devote points into it. It's downright amazing, and has no downside to casting. I actually toyed around with the Enhancement Build last night and am seriously considering giving up 9th level spells and going 4 FTR. I'm kinda sad about losing the mana points and True Ress, but the others all seem skippable, esp for how much ridiculous survival power I gain. Plus all the CON bonuses I gain are turning into lots of front loaded damage, so as a Dwarf it's kind of a double win.

I'd love to go Paladin, but sadly, my Dwarf is ugly, and I'd have to have known more about the game prior to build for that. I'm mainly sad about the loss of saving throw bonus, but I'll live.

Anyone have experience skipping 9th level spells and the few more mana levels and doing alright?
Is losing even more mana via the Mental Toughness Feat worth taking Cleave? I certainly don't feel like I'm missing it, esp with the Dwarven Axe fake Cleave

If I do go 4th level Fighter, I do gain 1 more Bonus Feat, and was considering Improved Critical: Slashing or The 20% Shield Bash One.

Also, I keep reading conflicting info, does Epic Feat - Defensive Bulwark trigger during Stalwart Stance?

Thanks kindly!

[SirValentine]

WHY would the OP even TAKE Mass Inflicts?
He's gonna be running with ONE PM and a Bard!
Mass Inflict would be an inane waste of spell points!


Helping your teammates not die isn't always considered a waste of spell points by everyone.

[FranOhmsford]

Helping your teammates not die isn't always considered a waste of spell points by everyone.

Where did I say it was?

He could take Inflict Light-Critical and Harm as he levels up to help ONE Pale Master teammate!

Taking Masses to use on ONE Pale Master is blatant over-kill!

Taking Masses simply because they have a larger range {not sure whether this is even true or not?} is a waste of SP!

A Pale Master has oodles of Self-Healing and probably won't need that much help anyway if the OP and his friends are in content and a difficulty level they can cope with in the first place.
A Pale Master who expects his friend to play a Dark Cleric just so he doesn't have to use his own self-healing? Somehow I don't think that's what we're talking about here...do you?

The OP is also running with a Bard {another character with plenty of self healing who can throw a few party heals as well!}.
I'm pretty certain that if the OP was to go all out as a Healer the OP wouldn't be too happy with how his character turned out.

The OP seems to have the right idea - Battle Cleric - but needs some pointers as to what the other characters he's running with are actually capable of so he doesn't end up ruing decisions based on being able to keep those players alive when he may be better off concentrating on his own DPS/CC abilities in the knowledge that his healing doesn't have to be Uber {He gets it free after all!}.

Also as a Cleric...If you're having to constantly keep yourself healed up you're not able to do the same for your teammates!

[SirValentine]

He could take Inflict Light-Critical and Harm as he levels up to help ONE Pale Master teammate!


You started by pointing out the uselessly-small range on Inflicts, now you want to claim you can effectively use them to help a PM teammate?

The single-target Inflict spells are just not practical at all for saving someone in an emergency. Which you know, since you already pointed it out yourself.

Harm would work, but comes at a very competitive spell level...I can't fit it, personally. Whereas I can fit a Mass Inflict spell.



Taking Masses to use on ONE Pale Master is blatant over-kill!

Taking Masses simply because they have a larger range {not sure whether this is even true or not?} is a waste of SP!


So where did you say it? Right there, you said it again. Sorry, I don't think being able to help my teammates not die is a waste of SP.

[BeldVanGuard]

So thank you again everyone for the help and info, here is an update on where I'm at and where I still need some help

Ended up going 16 Cleric 4 Fighter. The Defense Stance Enhancements were just too good.
Currently Epic Level 27

Turns out my 2 friends also had some issues and a lot of their problems have been due to incorrect builds or playstyles. We've been running around changing their gear and spec as available, and preparing but dreading for the Reincarnate so they can fix their builds, and I can get some stat points.

From what I can tell, I seem to be incredibly tanky, though we haven't been able to do too many Elite Dungeons yet. Been trying hard to find ways to increase my DPS without sacrificing my tank/healer role, and THINK I've been doing a decent job, but again, I lack any comparisons or goals or soft caps to know what to aim for. Any info is appreciated.
For example what kind of AC/PRR/MRR/HP do end game EE tanks rock?
Calculating DPS in this game seems a bit difficult due to alot of different effects, but what kind of regular/crit damage and attack speed / doublestrike should I be looking for?

Still having trouble finding out exactly what gear I should be going for (or how to go about getting it) I've found several goodies to aim for, but again any advice is greatly appreciated, as being several years behind in a game this large it's hard to research what's worth running and how to get to it

Due to the nature of leveling Epic Destinies, my stats are changing constantly as I'm not usually in the Destiny I'd want to be, but I really enjoyed Unyielding Sentinel. The Shield bonuses fit well into my build, the stance options provide a lot of flexibility, and it's just beefy in general.
Here is generally where the build is at, any input or direction for future reincarnations, build plans etc I'd love to hear, as I'm not sure how viable things last into late game EE content


Enhancement Tree

Dwarf (18 Points)
Dwarven Toughness 1 and 2, Dwarven Constitution 1 and 2
Axe Training 1-4
Dwarven Runes 3
Throw your Weight Around

I've read all the thoughts on wasted AP on the cost of the axe skills vs putting them into other trees, and I don't completely disagree. However, as I'm trying to tank and deal decent damage, Throw your Weight Around as a Dwarf is VERY attractive, as I can effectively ignore STR for DPS increases, and just focus on CON. This lets me up my dmg, Fort Saves, and HP all in 1 stat. The loss of bonus to hit so far in my experience is Negligible and can seem to hit everything without any issues. I'm still very open to any info here though

Radiant Servant (33 Points)
Healing Domain, Pacifism, Positive Energy Burst, Improved Empowered Healing
Extra Turning 3, Altruism 3, Bliss 1
Improved Turning 3, Mighty Turning 1
Intense Healing 3
Endless Turning 3, Incredible Healing 1
Positive Energy Aura

Stalwart Defender (29 Points)
Toughness, Stalwart Defense
Durable Defense 3, Stalwart Defensive Mastery 3
Resilient Defense 3, Stalwart Shield Mastery 3, Armor Expertise 3
Hardy Defense 3, Shield Expertise 3
Tenacious Defense 3, Reinforced Armor 3 (Armor obviously gives more AC than Shields, but with all the Shield % increases in Epic Destinies, has anyone done the math to see which comes out ahead?)


Feats

Mental Toughness
Improved Mental Toughness
Maximize Spell
Quicken Spell
Empowered Healing
Shield Mastery
Improved Shield Mastery
Improved Critical (Slashing)
Improved Shield Bash
Toughness

Epic Feats

Holy Strike (Is there a way to know when this procs? I swear I never see or notice it at all in game or combat log)
Bulwark of Defense
Blinding Speed
Overwhelming Critical
At 28 will get Perfect 2 Weapon Fighting (Does the 10% Offhand increase affect Shield Bashing?)

Epic Destiny Twists used often

Rejuvenation Cocoon
Brace for Impact
Sense Weakness
Renewal
Legendary Shield Mastery
Endless Turning (Seems to stack with Radiant Servant line, and as my CHA / Turn Count isn't high, having all that Regen has been great, I feel it's becoming a crutch though)
Consecration and all goodies for it

Gear of Note
Shield: Bastion (Epic Hard) (Working on getting Purple Dragon Knight Shield from Haunted Halls)
Weapon: Thunderforged Dwarven Axe Tier 1 (Devotion Mod, so beat stick is also my heal stick, helps a lot with aura/bursts)
Armor: Hero Plate (Level 27, hard to pass up the Morale Boosts and Saves)
Gloves and Helm: Purple Dragon Set pieces
Bracers: Epic Guardian Bracers (Not happy with these, but so many stacking Saves/AC it's hard to get rid of)
Boots: Treads of Falling Shadow (Epic Hard)
Rings: Sage's Ring and Signet of Shining Sun
Cloak: Adamantine Cloak of the Bear (Bleh, just using the Incite and Sheltering when I replace Bastion)


Any further info, advice, gear, builds, corrections and reincarnate advice etc is all greatly appreciated

Thanks folks!