Magical Damage in Epic

[Vargouille]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.


Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

[Jetrule]

Will this epic level to caster level break the spells ceiling? for example the spell Inflict light wounds- Negative energy is channeled through the caster touch to inflict light wounds on the target for 1d6+2 damage plus 1 per caster level (Maximum caster level 5.), or to heal Undead. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half. Would it be maximum caster level 13 on a lvl 28 cleric?

[Vargouille]

Will this epic level to caster level break the spells ceiling? for example the spell Inflict light wounds- Negative energy is channeled through the caster touch to inflict light wounds on the target for 1d6+2 damage plus 1 per caster level (Maximum caster level 5.), or to heal Undead. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half. Would it be maximum caster level 13 on a lvl 28 cleric?
As stated, this would not be touching maximum caster levels. That's something we might look at in the future but not for this change, which is mostly moving the existing buffs from Epic Destinies into Epic Levels, which seems like a clear win at this time.

[Jetrule]

Well that said it is a boon for all casters to some degre The spell crit feats are very powerful. And needed especialy for a dps sorc or wizard. I am not sure how useful the additional caster levels will be outside of multiclass builds.

Assuming it stacks with warlocks crit damage boosts I can see a shiradi return to dominance with wiz warlock fvs.

[HuneyMunster]

New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

So these feats will be Epic Destiny feats?

Also, the biggest problem with making one of them a level 28 spell would be you would not be able to take Hellball which along with Ruin is the only epic feat spells for arcane casters. The other Destiny Feat it would replace is epic spell power at level 26 and that 20% more crit damage is better than 20 spell power in an element.

[Blackheartox]

So, did i read this right, you plan to add holy sword to casters?

Im all for it, as i alrdy tested on warlock, spell critical damage is the best scaling casting stat in ddo for magical damage, this would give a huge benefit to almost all existing caster builds, and with increase to lv 30 which gives us a potential new feat the feat selection would perma include those feats.

I am lazy to check what update we have upcoming right now, is this update 26 we will get now?
If yes, then ty and this will make a nice comeback for casters, also another question unrelated to this that imo might be a huge buff, maybe a bit to huge (yet needed in case you dont plan to tone down bard/barb/rogue/palie dps) , are we gonna get new dots?

Efficiency wise, id say make 1 feat a epic feat that takes regular slot and 2nd feat the lv 26 selectable feat.
By pushing it toward 28 you would lock many builds out from helball, and that would specifically target warlocks imo since they heavily rely on ruin/hellball for bursty dps.

So something like epic critical damage and arcane critical damage, one that takes a regular epic feat and one that takes a lv 26 feat.
Issue with this of course is that i promote a caster buff this way for most benefit for caster players ;)
Fully realistical tho, i think best is to make those epic regular feats, so taken at lv 21,24 and 27

Another question, those feats would affect eldritch blasts as well, right?

[janave]

Well that said it is a boon for all casters to some degre The spell crit feats are very powerful. And needed especialy for a dps sorc or wizard. I am not sure how useful the additional caster levels will be outside of multiclass builds.

Assuming it stacks with warlocks crit damage boosts I can see a shiradi return to dominance with wiz warlock fvs.

This is pretty much what i think, seems like a major buff to hybrids and multiclasses while offering little extra for the pure builds, sorcerer's will have a hard time with their feat slots. Hopefully the spell crit damage wont compete with stuffs like 'Ruin', thats real trouble choosing there.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I'm pleasantly surprised. Thumbs up.

[Gralhota]

Any chance of spells be reviewed in the next three months? All veteran players choose the same spells, since they are the only ones with any use.

It would be very exciting to schools outside the Necro / Enchant group were redone or to gain new spells.

Please, I'm not asking for new classes of prestige, I am asking only that spell focus is usable at the time spell focus = Necro / Enchant focus.
In addition, the tree of Archmage can behave perfectly all schools per hour (SLA choose only the most useful).

Casters and mainly Wizards should have a range of possibilities, not just the cake recipe that ALL of us must undergo mandatory.


Anyway, thanks for the open attitude to dialogue, this creates hope and motivation to continue.

[HuneyMunster]

This is pretty much what i think, seems like a major buff to hybrids and multiclasses while offering little extra for the pure builds, sorcerer's will have a hard time with their feat slots. Hopefully the spell crit damage wont compete with stuffs like 'Ruin', thats real trouble choosing there.

Level 26 or 28 as a requirement was mentioned so seems more like they will complete with either with those feats and not ruin. If so then it could result in lose of Hellball. If a mistake on the feats levels and they should be epic feats then it would mean ruin or crit damage. If level 21 is out as a possibility then they would require being level 24 and 27

Yes they do seem to be more easier to be obtain for wiz/fvs magic missile build that a pure dc caster. Maybe make the crit damage based on the highest level of the appropriate classes you have so that pure get 20% and 12 fvs 6 wiz 2 pal would get 12%

[maddong]

The caster level change is fine but it does help wiz 14/fvs 4/pal 2 type builds more than pure casters due to the caster level caps.

I would rather just give us more +universal spell power with each epic level (similar to MP/RP), perhaps +3 or +6 per epic level than have more required feats to take.

Additionally when it comes to reflex saves the critical damage doesn't matter unless you have the past lives/uber gear/tomes to back it up. If you are not an optimized player this makes it harder since you have to devote two epic feats to that instead of improving your invocation DCs. I find it extremely frustrating trying to run a caster in epic elites, especially compared to a 15 paladin/5 rogue or 18+ rogue which adapts to epic elites ridiculously easily.

--- Later addition from later player posts:

I would do a hybrid on the caster level thing (yes it is inflation but since you won't nerf the "overperforming" things ie bard/paladin/barbarian casters will need a little inflation at epic levels only):
EDs add up to +5 epic caster levels.
Epic levels add up to +8 epic caster levels (these do not stack with other epic caster level bonuses such as EDs so you get whichever bonus is higher).

That way we get the +3 spell penetration that we will need for epic devils content, and you have more destiny options at cap--but you aren't nerfing us in MOTU.


The suggestion I like the best in regards to caster damage was the 5% critical damage per epic level (40% at level 28, the same as the 2 proposed feats), but I think this will just promote everyone playing Shiradi non DC casters.


To buff non Shiradi's without buffing Shiradi's you probably have two options:
1. Increase max caster levels on spells (since this typically increases dice on things like delayed blast fireball but does not increase your number of magic missiles or scorching rays).

2. Have each epic level decrease the mana that your pure damage non healing spells cost (ie polar ray, niac's, divine punishment, blade barrier, and meteor swarm; but not sunburst, cure critical, SLAs, or mass hold). If every epic level decreased the cost of damage spells by 7% then a 70 mana meteor swarm (after metamagics) would cost only 21 mana at level 30.

[Gralhota]

The caster level change is fine but it does help wiz 14/fvs 4/pal 2 type builds more than pure casters due to the caster level caps.

I would rather just give us more +universal spell power with each epic level (similar to MP/RP), perhaps +3 or +6 per epic level than have more required feats to take.

Additionally when it comes to reflex saves the critical damage doesn't matter unless you have the past lives/uber gear/tomes to back it up. If you are not an optimized player this makes it harder since you have to devote two epic feats to that instead of improving your invocation DCs. I find it extremely frustrating trying to run a caster in epic elites, especially compared to a 15 paladin/5 rogue or 18+ rogue which adapts to epic elites ridiculously easily.



I agree.

[HastyPudding]

While I appreciate the intent, I'm not sure I like the removal of caster levels from epic destinies.

- This potentially harms casters unless you are level 27-28, especially if you rely on spell penetration (and the lower level epics are filled with drow and demons that have high spell resistance). So, since the vast majority of people either ETR or ITR, this essentially gimps your potential damage and certainly gimps your spell penetration for the majority of epic levels. How is this a buff? It seems more like a nerf, to me.

- This harms pure casters far more than multiclass builds, as they are likely to be much more dependent on caster levels. This is essentially a nerf to spellcasters and a buff to multiclass eldritch knights, warpriests, shiradi casters, paladin builds, and swashbucklers.

- Casters are already highly strapped for feats without having to worry about critical damage feats. We have to worry about spell penetration, epic mental toughness if you want it, spell DC feats, extra metamagics we couldn't get in heroics due to already feat-starved classes, and other epic feats that are nice to have (like inspire excellence for bards, and future warlock feats). Too much choice and not enough freedom is a sure way to get overwhelmed and irritated.


Some counter proposals:

- Add universal spellpower to epic levels.

- Add +1 universal DC's to epic levels, 21, 23, 25, and 27.

- Add caster levels to epic levels 21, 23, 25, and 27.

- Add +3% critical spell damage to epic levels.

[Cynick]

I already see a bit of confusion creeping in here.

Varg states the feats would, as things are atm, be Epic feats, those normally taken at 21, 24, or 27.

He also states one or both COULD be a Destiny feat, at 26 or 28 but that idea seems to be still under discussion, and seems to be fairly unpopular so far from this thread.

As with any early info the devs give us, requirements may change, but its up to us to give feedback, and to give good reasons why so they can make those changes based on what we think.

[Systern]

Since you said that the intention is not to change Max Caster Level, and the vast majority of damage spells are capped far below character level; this won't accomplish what you're hoping (increase in damage). i.e. Fireball is still capped at 10d3+30 damage. http://ddowiki.com/page/Sorcerer_/_Wizard_spells Searching for "Maximum" gives 54 hits...

It's flexibility in DC calculation, since there caster levels are not capped.

[Iriale]

Pleasant surprised, at least you know that there are problems. ty for think in this!


We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.
True, is needed, but we don't need a big boost in this regard. I think that we need more better mana efficiency. For example, do you know how mana intensive is to have heighten, empower and maximize permanently on, although is needed in epics? Before to do big changes on spell dps, please, see on the mana efficiency problem, and then you will can balance better the boost in dps.


We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.
Spell DCs are not a big problem now, but, please, 2 things: your changes should not lower our DCs, and futures monsters don't should have improvements in their saves. DC casting works now, but needs a massive investment. If you lower our DCs, we can struggle with DC spells.


Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)

These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.
In principle not a bad idea, but I see serious problems for this. The first epic content we do to reach epic is Menace of the Underdark, and seriously, the SR of those drow is almost prohibitive even with maximized EDs. Wizards players will curse you if you do them this --- if now is difficult to use spells with SR in the drow, will be impossible to do at level with this change.

If you make this change, please add some improvements in the SR penetration of wizards. This class is already sufficiently penalized. I guess that necrodivines won't be happy either without a boost in their SR penetration. Or lower the SR of menace drows :P


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I
This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.
Two things--- paladins and not true spellcasters should not to have access to these feats. No, please, they don't need to make better energy burst, they have their melee dps and their weapon crits. The feats should be for true spellcasters only. There are feats that need a good amount of levels in classes: inspire excellence, improved martial arts, vorpal strikes, improved sneak attack…

Second, DC spellcasters can't afford lose more spell DC. We don't ask for more DC, but we can't afford lose more DC. Currently DC spellcasters spend ALL their epic feats in DC improvements, less Ruin, which is chosen for a lot of DC spellcasters. Seriously, these feats will be a must, but the lost of DC will be painful too and benefits more to the builds that not need DC. Shiradi builds (which have already a nice dps with shiradi procs) will rejoice in this. Please, yes to better spell crits, but in feats, no.

First, are you sure you want to give this boost to DPS also builds in shiradi? (because I think that shiradi builds would deserve a little boost, but don't need a big boost!) Otherwise, these benefits should be included in other caster EDs instead in feats, and shiradi ED would receive a lesser spell crit.

Second, if you create these feats, they will be mandatory. The spell dps is needed badly today in epics. Then, you can delete all others casting feats lol. And can you consider returning the lost DC to the DC spellcasters? Because if not, the change will have a bittersweet taste for more than one player. I said you: we are not bad on DC side now, but we can not afford to lose DC. No, we can't.

My opinion? These benefits should go in casters EDs or the empower and maximize feats should scale giving spell crit in epics, along with the spell crit of mental toughness… but better on casters EDs, because melees don't need improve their spells. The idea is good, the benefit is right-- we need more spell crit, true--- but as feats? As mandatory feats? No the best way to implement this, imho. There will no variation on feats on epics. Will be: crit feat, crit feat, ruin. Sure that you want this?

In any case, if you create these feats, I will get them lol. And I will look for a way to recover my lost DC. We really need an improvement in this regard. But, think about to reduce the cost of metamagic in epics, Varg, please. Mana efficiency is now horrible.

ty for think in spellcasters!

[MonadRebelion]

I suppose the intention here is to make casters more competitive with the new super charged melees. That end I feel mixed about these feats. The problem is that in order to benefit from the feats I have to figure out which feats I want to drop. That won't be too bad for wizards, but it's gonna suck for clerics who are feat starved. When you look at what happened to paladins, the changes that were made essentially gave them extra feats. All the pre-req's for Overwhelming Crit were lifted and cleaves were added to KotC. So, every paladin with OC just got two feats freed up and even better cleaves than the feats. So figure out a way to give me 2 free feats and I'll say yeah this will help casters be competitive with melees.

[Lonnbeimnech]

The caster level change is fine but it does help wiz 14/fvs 4/pal 2 type builds more than pure casters due to the caster level caps.

I would rather just give us more +universal spell power with each epic level (similar to MP/RP), perhaps +3 or +6 per epic level than have more required feats to take.

Additionally when it comes to reflex saves the critical damage doesn't matter unless you have the past lives/uber gear/tomes to back it up. If you are not an optimized player this makes it harder since you have to devote two epic feats to that instead of improving your invocation DCs. I find it extremely frustrating trying to run a caster in epic elites, especially compared to a 15 paladin/5 rogue or 18+ rogue which adapts to epic elites ridiculously easily.

If you add +6 universal spell power, that's going to amount to +48 by level 28. An undergeared sorcs is going to be running at 600+ in his main element easily by then, you are talking about maybe a 2% increase in his dps.

+6 universal power would be much more noticeable on a paladin casting cocoon. It might go from 120 a tick to 130...

[MonadRebelion]

I would rather just give us more +universal spell power with each epic level (similar to MP/RP), perhaps +3 or +6 per epic level than have more required feats to take.


This would help casters more than 2 new feats

[Ape_Man]

taxing us 2 feats for this sucks, sucks really hard. Please scrap this idea.

Scale more damage, maybe as some spell power added per epic level, would be better than taxing us two feats.

[Qhualor]

I cant really provide any feedback exactly on spells and casters since I have little experience with them and don't have any intention to play one, but I can provide a "from where I sit as a melee player". ill pretty much stay out of this discussion.

please be careful with how much power you give to the caster spells. I do see plenty of casters that dominate epic content and I shouldn't need to remind you of the advantages a caster has over sword swinging melees. I know Sev talked about improving spells against bosses, so I wonder if this is related to that? I can tell you also it really isn't fun when you run up to fight a mob and it is dead by the time you get to it over and over again throughout a quest or it is dead by caster after beating on it for 2 seconds. that tells me either high damaging spells, death spells and/or cooldowns need to be looked into.

im not trying to whine, suggest that casters not have any improvements or say they should be ranked in power below melees. I just remember the days when casters ruled epics, except boss fights usually, and dont want to see a revival of that. in the end, I just hope you (the devs) make a proper balance decision that will be universally liked by the players

[Gurei23]

Adding caster levels for each epic level sounds like a solid plan, but that doesn't mean you should trash the caster level bonuses in the varying EDs.

Does that mean casters will be more powerful and therefor more likely to use a tree that suits their class? Of course it does, but that's how it goes with most classes and builds. Warriors are more likely to use the EDs in Martial trees, Divines tend to lean towards the Divine tree, and Arcanes in the Arcane tree. Primal is more diverse but still powerful for those it's designed for.

Let the Martial sphere largely dominate melee dps, the Divine sphere with tanking and healing (survivability), Primal take care of the Hybrid builds, and Arcane finally draw in Spell dps. If you remove caster levels from EDs, there will be even less of a reason to ever step in Draconic Incarnation once you cap it since you wouldn't lose much of anything by merely twisting energy burst.

TL;DR
Removing CL from EDs = fewer Arcane sphere users, even MORE Shiradi casters.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Pleasant surprised, at least you know that there are problems. ty for think in this!


True, is needed, but we don't need a big boost in this regard. I think that we need more better mana efficiency. For example, do you know how mana intensive is to have heighten, empower and maximize permanently on, although is needed in epics? Before to do big changes on spell dps, please, see on the mana efficiency problem, and then you will can balance better the boost in dps.
That's a very good point. If casters had enough sp or if the sp cost of those metamagic feats were low enough that a caster could keep them turned on, that would already be a significant boost to their dps.


Spell DCs are not a big problem now, but, please, 2 things: your changes should not lower our DCs, and futures monsters don't should have improvements in their saves. DC casting works now, but needs a massive investment. If you lower our DCs, we can struggle with DC spells.


In principle not a bad idea, but I see serious problems for this. The first epic content we do to reach epic is Menace of the Underdark, and seriously, the SR of those drow is almost prohibitive even with maximized EDs. Wizards players will curse you if you do them this --- if now is difficult to use spells with SR in the drow, will be impossible to do at level with this change.

If you make this change, please add some improvements in the SR penetration of wizards. This class is already sufficiently penalized. I guess that necrodivines won't be happy either without a boost in their SR penetration. Or lower the SR of menace drows :P


Two things--- paladins and not true spellcasters should not to have access to these feats. No, please, they don't need to make better energy burst, they have their melee dps and their weapon crits. The feats should be for true spellcasters only. There are feats that need a good amount of levels in classes: inspire excellence, improved martial arts, vorpal strikes, improved sneak attack…

Second, DC spellcasters can't afford lose more spell DC. We don't ask for more DC, but we can't afford lose more DC. Currently DC spellcasters spend ALL their epic feats in DC improvements, less Ruin, which is chosen for a lot of DC spellcasters. Seriously, these feats will be a must, but the lost of DC will be painful too and benefits more to the builds that not need DC. Shiradi builds (which nice already a nice dps with shiradi procs) will rejoice in this. Please, yes to better spell crits, but in feats, no.

First, are you sure you want to give this boost to DPS also builds in shiradi? (because I think that shiradi builds would deserve a little boost, but don't need a big boost!) Otherwise, these benefits should be included in other caster EDs instead in feats.

Second, if you create these feats, they will be mandatory. The spell dps is needed badly today in epics. Then, you can delete all others casting feats lol. And can you consider returning the lost DC to the DC spellcasters? Because if not, the change will have a bittersweet taste for more than one player. I said you: we are not bad on DC side now, but we can not afford to lose DC. No, we can't.

My opinion? These benefits should go in casters EDs or the empower and maximize feats should scale giving spell crit in epics, along with the spell crit of mental toughness… but better on casters EDs, because melees don't need improve their spells. The idea is good, the benefit is right-- we need more spell crit, true--- but as feats? As mandatory feats? No the best way to implement this, imho. There will no variation on feats on epics. Will be: crit feat, crit feat, ruin. Sure that you want this?
Shiradi dps is greatly exaggerated. They do less dps than a draconic caster, not even counting energy burst or dragon breath or energy vortex. The only time it is better is with joy of the queen buff - and that's every once in a while for 5 min.

What's good about shiradi is efficient sp usage, not dps.

[fmalfeas]

I haven't decided what I think of the spell crit damage feats yet, gonna ponder that before I make a decision (but epic spell pen, epic spell focus, and epic mental toughness (which not only gives SP, but high-value spell crit chance) are brutal competitors.

However, regarding linking caster level to epic level instead of destiny...YES!

That allows, for example, a Water Savant to run in Primal Avatar without nerfing themselves of 6 spell pen just for being in the wrong sphere. (If you don't see why they would, I have one word for you...Tsunami.)

Also allows, to use another sorc example, Fire Savants to hang out in Divine Crusader if they want, also without nerfing their spell pen. Or druids to work Magister or Draconic or Dreadnaught.

It's a good choice.

[Drwaz99]

How about instead of making them (the damage ones at least) a feat, throw them into the cores for the casting destinies to replace the caster levels removal at 5% increments? It'll help the early 20's caster feel not so weak with lower caster levels and still give a sense of progression. I'm just not sure them being a feat is worth it. Especially if your a DC caster and your're already struggling to get decent DC's. It'll help the 1%'ers who can get the DC's without issue but hurt most everyone else.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I haven't decided what I think of the spell crit damage feats yet, gonna ponder that before I make a decision (but epic spell pen, epic spell focus, and epic mental toughness (which not only gives SP, but high-value spell crit chance) are brutal competitors.

However, regarding linking caster level to epic level instead of destiny...YES!

That allows, for example, a Water Savant to run in Primal Avatar without nerfing themselves of 6 spell pen just for being in the wrong sphere. (If you don't see why they would, I have one word for you...Tsunami.)

Also allows, to use another sorc example, Fire Savants to hang out in Divine Crusader if they want, also without nerfing their spell pen. Or druids to work Magister or Draconic or Dreadnaught.

It's a good choice.

Though it also allows for a 18 fighter 1 sorc 1 wizard to run around with 9 caster levels in shiradi, with 3 kinds of magic missile....hmm

[Alternative]

Switching caster levels from destinies to character levels is very much needed, although this will help with spell penetration rather than direct damage spells. This will help all casters including warlocks, every cha/wis based DC caster will now run in Exalted Angel gaining +3 DC from a core and another +3 from stats, wizards get shafted slightly.

As for those critical damage feats, they are really bad. DC casters already have to take +1 stat for every epic feat and twist, and even then it's tough in higher EE content, unless we are expected to dump DC casting entirely. I'm pretty sure those bigger crits will only benefit the shiradi casters that dump DCs and thus have extreme feat flexibility.

There are other ways to increase caster dps than just increasing spell critical damage, you could for example reduce spell cooldowns and sp costs of metamagics. Epic spells that cost a feat slot (Ruin, Hellball) should have the metamagic cost removed entirely. That could alow for faster and more sustained nuking, and wouldn't add another feat tax.

[HastyPudding]

I haven't decided what I think of the spell crit damage feats yet, gonna ponder that before I make a decision (but epic spell pen, epic spell focus, and epic mental toughness (which not only gives SP, but high-value spell crit chance) are brutal competitors.

However, regarding linking caster level to epic level instead of destiny...YES!

That allows, for example, a Water Savant to run in Primal Avatar without nerfing themselves of 6 spell pen just for being in the wrong sphere. (If you don't see why they would, I have one word for you...Tsunami.)

Also allows, to use another sorc example, Fire Savants to hang out in Divine Crusader if they want, also without nerfing their spell pen. Or druids to work Magister or Draconic or Dreadnaught.

It's a good choice.

You're going to lose 6 spell pen anyway, if those goes live, until level 27. Those early epic levels are when you need that extra spell pen/caster levels, and this change effectively removes the spell pen you get from destinies. This is not a buff, it's a nerf with a cherry on top of it. At most, this would somewhat help druids and slightly less help for spellcaster bards; it's almost a direct nerf to wizards.



Switching caster levels from destinies to character levels is very much needed, although this will help with spell penetration rather than direct damage spells. This will help all casters including warlocks, every cha/wis based DC caster will now run in Exalted Angel gaining +3 DC from a core and another +3 from stats, wizards get shafted slightly.

As for those critical damage feats, they are really bad. DC casters already have to take +1 stat for every epic feat and twist, and even then it's tough in higher EE content, unless we are expected to dump DC casting entirely. I'm pretty sure those bigger crits will only benefit the shiradi casters that dump DCs and thus have extreme feat flexibility.

There are other ways to increase caster dps than just increasing spell critical damage, you could for example reduce spell cooldowns and sp costs of metamagics. Epic spells that cost a feat slot (Ruin, Hellball) should have the metamagic cost removed entirely. That could alow for faster and more sustained nuking, and wouldn't add another feat tax.

Again, this is a nerf, not a buff. The spell penetration you think you're getting doesn't exist until level 27-28; before that, you're gimped more than you are, right now. Removing caster levels from epic destinies removes spell penetration because spell penetration is a caster level check.


This is just a huge buff to shiradi spellcasters, along with the critical damage feats, something which seriously make me want to stop playing. I love DC and damage casters, and I HATE the fact that shiradi spellcasters even exist. This is practically a nerf to everything I love about the caster classes.

[Gurei23]

*snip*

Shiradi dps is greatly exaggerated. They do less dps than a draconic caster, not even counting energy burst or dragon breath or energy vortex. The only time it is better is with joy of the queen buff - and that's every once in a while for 5 min.

What's good about shiradi is efficient sp usage, not dps.

I would go as far as to say Shiradi's DPS is on par with Draconic Incarnation. Energy Burst is a must-twist for arcanes (sorcs in particular), so it's difficult to say DI can hold it over Shiradi. Energy vortex is strong, but given its a slow dot centered on the caster i would say it's damage is on par with the double rainbow chain. Dragon Breath can only be used 5 times per rest and with a CD of 1 min, is on par with joy of the queen, we can call it the defensive version of DI's dragon breath.

Shiradi pulls way ahead with nerve venom though, since the cooldown on daunting roar is TWO MINUTES and only lasts 15 seconds, while nerve venom's duration is indefinite so long as you're alive and have the SP. Pair the nerve venom with twisted energy burst and your DPS will at least be on par with DI, but much safer and less SP and DC dependent.

...The rest on both sides is pretty much fluff that balances out IMO.

[Iriale]

Switching caster levels from destinies to character levels is very much needed, although this will help with spell penetration rather than direct damage spells. This will help all casters including warlocks, every cha/wis based DC caster will now run in Exalted Angel gaining +3 DC from a core and another +3 from stats, wizards get shafted slightly.

As for those critical damage feats, they are really bad. DC casters already have to take +1 stat for every epic feat and twist, and even then it's tough in higher EE content, unless we are expected to dump DC casting entirely. I'm pretty sure those bigger crits will only benefit the shiradi casters that dump DCs and thus have extreme feat flexibility.

There are other ways to increase caster dps than just increasing spell critical damage, you could for example reduce spell cooldowns and sp costs of metamagics. Epic spells that cost a feat slot (Ruin, Hellball) should have the metamagic cost removed entirely. That could alow for faster and more sustained nuking, and wouldn't add another feat tax.
no. exalted angel give +4 from stats (angelic presence gives +2 more of cha)

This beneficts greatly to cha spellcasters, which get shafted only at low epics but after is a great boost for them, wizards as usual got shafted not slightly, if not a lot. Menace at level will be prohitive, draconic is not as sweet as exalted angel, magister is pure garbage and shadowdancer is a massive lost of spell points, and exalted angel is the same DC than magister o draconic for a wizard. Non-int EDs are meh for wizard. I hope that magister will be revisited soon. It deserves a good revision!

Bigger crits is a great idea, but not as a feat tax. Anyways, the metamagic cost reduction is needed. But, at least, devs are thinking in the issue and doing changes! It's a good thing!

[esojiul]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.


Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

EE requires 70dc. maybe if you lower reflex dc of all the monster at a point that sorcerer, artificer, druids, warlocks etc etc can do some dmg and take advantage of the point you are posting, will be great.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I would go as far as to say Shiradi's DPS is on par with Draconic Incarnation. Energy Burst is a must-twist for arcanes (sorcs in particular), so it's difficult to say DI can hold it over Shiradi. Energy vortex is strong, but given its a slow dot centered on the caster i would say it's damage is on par with the double rainbow chain. Dragon Breath can only be used 5 times per rest and with a CD of 1 min, is on par with joy of the queen, we can call it the defensive version of DI's dragon breath.

Shiradi pulls way ahead with nerve venom though, since the cooldown on daunting roar is TWO MINUTES and only lasts 15 seconds, while nerve venom's duration is indefinite so long as you're alive and have the SP. Pair the nerve venom with twisted energy burst and your DPS will at least be on par with DI, but much safer and less SP and DC dependent.

...The rest on both sides is pretty much fluff that balances out IMO.

I dont see nerve venom as being a dps increase. Yes it does increase dps by the helpless damage, but a non shiradi played traditionally would be using mass hold, flesh to stone etc anyway. I see nerve venom being more in the position of efficient mana usage, since it costs nothing, and encourages shiradi to skip mass hold and just spam magic missiles til something good procs.

[Iriale]

You're going to lose 6 spell pen anyway, if those goes live, until level 27. Those early epic levels are when you need that extra spell pen/caster levels, and this change effectively removes the spell pen you get from destinies. This is not a buff, it's a nerf with a cherry on top of it. At most, this would somewhat help druids and slightly less help for spellcaster bards; it's almost a direct nerf to wizards.




Again, this is a nerf, not a buff. The spell penetration you think you're getting doesn't exist until level 27-28; before that, you're gimped more than you are, right now. Removing caster levels from epic destinies removes spell penetration because spell penetration is a caster level check.


This is just a huge buff to shiradi spellcasters, along with the critical damage feats, something which seriously make me want to stop playing. I love DC and damage casters, and I HATE the fact that shiradi spellcasters even exist. This is practically a nerf to everything I love about the caster classes.
Well, if caster EDs retain SOME of the caster levels and we obtain caster levels on epic levels will be a buff (a massive buff for shiradi and cha exalted angel builds, a lesser buff the rest, too a massive boost for hybrids builds running in divine crusader... bards running in divine crusader will be very happy, for example). If EDs lose all the spell levels but gain some spell penetration (now they give +3, duplicate this bonus, for example) would not be a nerf on the spell penetration side, and DPS builds would not notice much the change, because there are very few spells that scales in epics (most have their caster levels capped on epics)

anyways, shiradi, exalted angel and shiradi will be better EDs, wizards don't gain too much with the change... they need int, and get shafted anyways in every other destiny than draconic (not bad, not great either) or magister (pure garbage)

If devs divorce the caster levels from EDs, Exalted Angel will be the ultimate ED for all non shiradi builds (less intelligence builds, of course). By the same Divine crusader will be the go-go ED for all melee-casters hybrids, although once again the eldritch knight wizards will be in second place, because these destinations gives wis / cha but not int.

My advice, devs? Do for the update 26 the spell critical changes, and if possible, also revise the cost of metamagic. And don’t remove the caster levels from EDs yet: wait until you do a deep revision of EDs (starting with the poor, forgotten, magister!) Because balance this has some complexity. I would really LOVE that you, devs, divorce the caster levels from EDs, but I want this with a little balance. Removing without making other changes in the EDs would create problems of SR penetration at low epics, and massively favours some builds over others (cha casters builds, cha / wis hybrids and shiradi builds) Better make it taking time to introduce all necessary changes.

[HastyPudding]

I would go as far as to say Shiradi's DPS is on par with Draconic Incarnation. Energy Burst is a must-twist for arcanes (sorcs in particular), so it's difficult to say DI can hold it over Shiradi. Energy vortex is strong, but given its a slow dot centered on the caster i would say it's damage is on par with the double rainbow chain. Dragon Breath can only be used 5 times per rest and with a CD of 1 min, is on par with joy of the queen, we can call it the defensive version of DI's dragon breath.

Shiradi pulls way ahead with nerve venom though, since the cooldown on daunting roar is TWO MINUTES and only lasts 15 seconds, while nerve venom's duration is indefinite so long as you're alive and have the SP. Pair the nerve venom with twisted energy burst and your DPS will at least be on par with DI, but much safer and less SP and DC dependent.

...The rest on both sides is pretty much fluff that balances out IMO.

That's what I don't like about it. A spellcaster, in order to be super effective, needs wizard past lives, fvs past lives, sorcerer past lives, and sometimes cleric past lives. That gives +9 spell penetration, +3 evocation dc's, +3 conjuration dc's, and +120 SP (if you're a spellsinger bard you probably want a bard past life, too). You also need good gear such as spell focus, stat bonus, spell critical chance, spell penetration/arcane augmentation items, and spellpower items. That's a major investment.

Shiradi casters don't need high spell DC's, if at all. Spell penetration is all but useless to them. They only need as many caster levels to max out magic missile spells. The only thing they need to worry about is some spellpower and critical chance. These critical damage feats will be hard to fit into a spellcaster's build due to having very few free feats to begin with, and doing so will nerf their DC's, spell penetration, and/or spell points/critical chance. A shiradi caster can get these critical damage feats and not look back, already increasing their strong DPS potential.

In short, it takes a lot of past lives, epic destiny farming, and gear investment to make an even halfway effective spellcaster; it takes maybe 1-2 lives and a bit of epic destiny farming to make a shiradi caster work properly. It's so imbalanced between the two.

Regarding the critical damage feats:
- Wizards, especially ones without a lot of wizard/fvs past lives, are already heavily taxed for epic feats.

- Sorcerers need to worry about evocation (and sometimes conjuration) DC's. Extra critical damage is pointless if enemies constantly save against your spells. Critical damage needs to be put into the savant cores, maybe 5% per core.

- Druids would take the critical feats, but their epic damage is severely lacking compared to even spellsinger bards that it makes little sense. They'd be better off taking evocation focus feats to maximize earthquake.

- Spellsinger bards are in the same boat as wizards, even more so because they lack the extra 5 spellcasting feats.

- Clerics and FVS might take them, but an evoker FVS needs evocation DC's just as bad as a sorcerer. I can only see cleric/FVS light cannons taking the feats because they're not very DC heavy.

[Jetrule]

I would suggest not removing the caster level bonuses from epic destinies. Leave them as they are just make the proposed epic level to caster level bonus of the same bonus type so they don't stack.

The spell critical damage boost is sorely needed for most casters. Feats seem a good place for them. My lvl28 caster is a cleric divine disciple (light) and would definitely take these feats and not feel cheated since he doesn't even try for ee level d.c.s. I see the hard choice for d.c. casters though. I don't think passive spell power or passive crit damage is the answer though. No trade offs. Perhaps put them in the twistable range in Magister and Exalted Angel?

I prefer it in feats it offers a choice. Get best D.C,s Best Damage Or Mix one of each selection with epic feat choices.

[Angelic-council]

This is a wonderful news varg. I sincerely appreciate you for doing this thread. Finally you guys decided to add spell critical multiplier back. Thank you!

However, I'm a critical person.. I really need you to read this comment, please..

I really like the idea of 40% total. But!... please keep this in mind that, because of shiradi casters.. many casters dumb their DC, and this is the major buff to those who play easy builds. Every pure damage type casters need extra epic feats to support their DC damage attacks, simply because if you fail on fortitude, will or reflex save, monsters take half the damage or none at all.

I believe there is another way how you guys should implement critical damage. Maybe adding small portion of damage multiplier to every casting ED core. exalted angel, magister, draconic: 5% critical multiplier - each core etc, everything except shiradi.

Because again, shiradi casters dominate the battle field when it comes to casting DPS battle. Adding 20% damage multiple feat at lv21 and lv24 would only promote shiradi. Every casters need DC and extra ability score so they can even land a spell.. not shiradis.

[HastyPudding]

This is a wonderful news varg. I sincerely appreciate you for doing this thread. Finally you guys decided to add spell critical multiplier back. Thank you!

However, I'm a critical person.. I really need you to read this comment, please..

I really like the idea of 40% total. But!... please keep this in mind that, because of shiradi casters.. many casters dumb their DC, and this is the major buff to those who play easy builds. Every pure damage type casters need extra epic feats to support their DC damage attacks, simply because if you fail on fortitude, will or reflex save, monsters take half the damage or none at all.

I believe there is another way how you guys should implement critical damage. Maybe adding small portion of damage multiplier to every casting ED core. exalted angel, magister, draconic: 5% critical multiplier - each core etc, everything except shiradi.

Because again, shiradi casters dominate the battle field when it comes to casting DPS battle. Adding 20% damage multiple feat at lv21 and lv24 would only promote shiradi. Every casters need DC and extra ability score so they can even land a spell.. not shiradis.

^^^Again, this!^^^

This entire thread is basically a buff to shiradi casters and a nerf almost every pure spellcaster.

[HuneyMunster]

How about instead of making them (the damage ones at least) a feat, throw them into the cores for the casting destinies to replace the caster levels removal at 5% increments? It'll help the early 20's caster feel not so weak with lower caster levels and still give a sense of progression. I'm just not sure them being a feat is worth it. Especially if your a DC caster and your're already struggling to get decent DC's. It'll help the 1%'ers who can get the DC's without issue but hurt most everyone else.

The reason they were to be made feats was so the have a level requirement. Alot of people have capped their destinies so this would just mean they get max bonus at 20.

What could be done is while in casting destiny use a formula based on character level similar to how spells like Energy Burst scale. Maybe 5% per epic level which is the same amount compared to the two feats. This could easily be adjusted if casters seem to be over/under performing.

[nibel]

Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


I know that you said you are not messing with maximum caster levels. But just throwing the idea for later anyway:

Link +CL to Epic Level, and link +MCL to Epic Destinies. Maybe even not in "all classes" style, but somewhat thematically (DI raises elemental spells, EA raises fire and light spells, etc)


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


Remember that we only have three slots for epic feats (21, 24, 27). Casters already have three epic feats (Epic Spell Focus, Epic Spell Penetration, Epic Mental Toughness), all of them being the third feat in a feat line. Adding more two on that pile, one even being pre-requisite to the other, will make things a lot tougher.

I would prefer those two feats to be level 26 and 28 ED feats, requiring Arcane Sphere Mastery. Make the second one really tempting, so people get to be in doubt if Hellball is actually better or not.

(Btw, while you are fiddling with epic feats, can you put Greater Two Weapon/Handed Fighting as a requirement for the "Perfect" version of those feats, just like it is with Perfect SWF? Right now you can take PTWF for +5% doublestrike even if you are using a 2-hander or single weapon)

[davmuzl]

I definitely like the idea of having caster levels linked to epic levels rather than destiny levels.

For the feats I'm just not sure what you want players to give up for them.
Sorcerers wouldn't even able to benefit really well from those feats if they were epic feats. Either they lose DPS because of worse crits or they lose DPS because the enemies save their spells.
If they were epic destiny feats casters would lose spellpower. Both not great options.

What about granting extra feats in the epic levels that improve existing heroic feats/enhancements. Casters could get this crit damage bonus. Barbarians are still missing scaling DR. There are a lot of heroic abilities that just don't scale good enough into epics.

[CeltEireson]

I'll be looking at it mainly from a wizard point of view.

Whilst the caster level being tied to your actual epic levels makes some sense, as others have pointed out it tends to benefit multiclass builds more especially in terms of dps as the vast majority of damage spells top out at level 20 or less. You're effectively removing reasons to actually stay in either magister or draconic for wizards because the most useful elements of both can simply be twisted in - such as the +3 to dc from magister or energy burst from draconic. The only additional benefit they can get is the +3 to max spell level for certain spells or schools, and that's somewhat irrelevant if you're going down the DC route, and of course the bonus to int - compare that to all the benefits you can get from shiradi and I'd say that you'll be seeing many switching over.

There seems to be this opinion that you are either DPS or DC, in DDO you can't really be pure DC as so many mobs are immune to various spells particularly bosses but not just restricted to them. So DPS is important for any wizard regardless, also as it stands we would need to drop some of our existing feats which we use to get our DCs up to the level required to take these new feats.

I think there should only be one new feat - either standard epic feat or an epic destiny feat. Roll the other one into a benefit for the 2 caster destinies - we need to have some reason to take them, and/or add a generic increase at a couple of the innates that increases both caster level and max caster level for all spells, particularly for magister because lets face it it needs all the help it can get.

[nibel]

That's what I don't like about it. A spellcaster, in order to be super effective, needs wizard past lives, fvs past lives, sorcerer past lives, and sometimes cleric past lives. That gives +9 spell penetration, +3 evocation dc's, +3 conjuration dc's, and +120 SP (if you're a spellsinger bard you probably want a bard past life, too).

As a parallel topic, that is why I suggested a revamp/nerf on those specific past lifes (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/460516). DC casting is the only build archetype in the game that vastly benefits you for running a dozen past lifes in comparison with a generic second-lifer (36 pts char). Every other archetype have some PL that are "nice to have", but in no way mandatory as DC casting is.

[Infiltraitor]

Two things--- paladins and not true spellcasters should not to have access to these feats. No, please, they don't need to make better energy burst, they have their melee dps and their weapon crits. The feats should be for true spellcasters only. There are feats that need a good amount of levels in classes: inspire excellence, improved martial arts, vorpal strikes, improved sneak attack…



If I want to severely gimp myself by putting spell casting feats on a Melee class, why shouldn't I be allowed to? Just because all my synergies are Melee attack based doesn't mean I can't chug DDO store pots to compensate for my abysmal spell point pool or use stacking DDO store buffs to compensate for having no DC buffs in my Melee Enhancement trees. What if I want to twist in nukes into a non caster class that has no spell - like - abilities.

[Iriale]

^^^Again, this!^^^

This entire thread is basically a buff to shiradi casters and a nerf almost every pure spellcaster.
No, that's not true. It will be a buff to all if done by introducing additional changes and making it with the appropriate methods. For the love of all that is sacred, with comments like these only you will succeed in that devs don’t introduce changes, and changes are necessary. Frankly, although I hate the thought of losing more DC (arcane supremacy nerf was a -2 int weeks ago), my wizard now needs more dps than DC.

Simply you have to warn devs about to be careful in how the changes are introduced. A feat tax is undesirable, because all epic builds will have the same three feats, and because some builds are more affected for the tax than others. But the spell crit thing is wonderful news! Do now, yes! Divorcing the epic levels from EDs is a GREAT thing, but it can not be done fast and mindless--- needs further changes for balance: SR penetration problems on menace, some builds don't gain too much away their EDs because need more DC than caster levels, some EDs get a massive buff (exalted angel, divine crusader, shiradi mainly), others not. It is a great idea… but needs further changes, better do it with time and care.

[Blackheartox]

This is a wonderful news varg. I sincerely appreciate you for doing this thread. Finally you guys decided to add spell critical multiplier back. Thank you!

However, I'm a critical person.. I really need you to read this comment, please..

I really like the idea of 40% total. But!... please keep this in mind that, because of shiradi casters.. many casters dumb their DC, and this is the major buff to those who play easy builds. Every pure damage type casters need extra epic feats to support their DC damage attacks, simply because if you fail on fortitude, will or reflex save, monsters take half the damage or none at all.

I believe there is another way how you guys should implement critical damage. Maybe adding small portion of damage multiplier to every casting ED core. exalted angel, magister, draconic: 5% critical multiplier - each core etc, everything except shiradi.

Because again, shiradi casters dominate the battle field when it comes to casting DPS battle. Adding 20% damage multiple feat at lv21 and lv24 would only promote shiradi. Every casters need DC and extra ability score so they can even land a spell.. not shiradis.

Yes this, even tho i really like the idea of spell crit damage, thinking about adding caster levels to epic levels and crit damage feats will just promote shiradi builds.
We dont need a buff to shiradi. They got nerve, and that is more then they need.

To add crit damage to destenies /exalted magister and draconic looks like a way better solution to me, in cores so that it cant be twisted

[Mahatu]

I would like to start off saying that I am really excited that changes like these are finally getting done! So on to comments and concerns:

* Shifting caster levels to epic levels is a really great move. Will these caster levels also work twords a caster's spell penetration? I certainly hope so as it is frustratingly difficult to get sufficient spell pen, particularly for current end game content. This change could be a huge help though.

* Will this caster level increase apply to all classes that you have? That could be a huge boon to multiclassed casters.

* Will eldritch blast scale with this increase in caster level? Something like +1d6 base damage per 3 caster levels and +1d4 pact damage per 2 caster levels. This could certainly help out warlocks with damage in epics, which I know is a concern around here (I haven't done the math myself yet). Even if this doesn't scale the blast's damage past caster level 20, this sort of advancemnt could be very helpful to multiclass warlocks who will likely have even more trouble with maintaining sufficient damage at higher levels.

* On a similar note, will this caster level increase work with rune arms? This could be a very nice boon to pure and multiclass arties alike, as well as making the rune arm more usefull to arty splashes beyond just another "stat stick."

* If people feel damage is still a concern, a possibility would be to add increased max caster level for all spells at every 2 or 3 (or maybe even 4) epic levels. This would give pure casters a little more punch with their "heroic" spells, which I personally feel is a lot more desirable than adding new epic spells and letting the heroic damage spells to become less and less relevant.

* I really like the look of the new spell critical epic feats. I think they will bee a huge boon to casters in epics who as you know struggle with damage, particularly boss damage. My main concern with these feats is that they will be essential to be valuable as a caster in high end epics. Casters already have several "essential" feats that need to be taken in epics, notably additional spell focus for relevant schools (I am glad you guys are recognizing that achieving viable spell DCs, particularly for more than one school, is very difficult if not unrealistic for a lot of people), spell pen (which will hopefully be alleviated some with the increase in caster levels), and fitting in as many Great Ability feats in as you can to (again) help keep DCs just this side of "workable."
I really do like that you guys try to make tough choices (I just want to take all of the warlock enhancements :P ), but I feel this may stray into territory where you will fell like you have no choices, or any choices you make will leave you under performing. Spell crit damage could always be added to epic levels in the way melee and ranged power are, but that could bring with it other issues (mostly the potential for too much power). I am not sure what the best solution is, but I want to make my concerns heard.

On a final note regarding spell DCs: I don't know what other people feel the "right" amount of DCs for casters is, but this is what I would like to see. I fell that a first life character with reasonable gear and in a decent destiny should be able to have spells from their primary school of magic succeed around 75% of the time, and spells from their "off" schools succeed around 60% of the time (with variance for mobs with particularly strong or weak saves). Characters could then use spells like crushing despair/solid fog/enervation and intelligent use of spells (choosing spells with the right type of save to target mobs with weak saves) to help make up the difference.
For a character that has all the right gear and multiple relevant past lives, I feel the numbers should be more like a 95% chance to succeed with their primary school(s) on the majority of mobs and 75% chance with their off schools. Again, debuffs and intelligent use of spells would be used to make the difference for really tough to hit mobs, or when using spells that a save type that the given mob is "strong" against. Again, I am not sure that everyone will feel the same on this, but I feel that this general idea makes it so that new casters feel like they are contributing to the party and make fully specced and geared casters feel like they have gotten something worthwhile for the effort they have put in.

Okay, one more note: Part of the DC issue is that for the majority of mobs in epics, and high end heroic elite, every save is their "good" save and there really is no benefit to targeting their vulerabilites as in general they don't have any. Fort saves for all mobs are extremely strong (even for undead and constructs who are consistently meant to have week fort saves), ref saves for all mobs are very strong (even for giants, true dragons and plants, who are all meant to have fairly low ref saves) and will saves for all mobs are at least moderately strong (again, even for constructs, animals, elementals, magical beasts, plants and vermin, who all generally are meant to have low will saves).
This, paired with how hard it is to have decent saves in even one school mean that there really isn't any point in choosing the right spell for the right situation (a major play element of being a caster in PnP) and you might as well just blast away with your strong school and hope it is enough. I just don't feel the situation as it stands is all that compelling.

[Iriale]

I'll be looking at it mainly from a wizard point of view.

Whilst the caster level being tied to your actual epic levels makes some sense, as others have pointed out it tends to benefit multiclass builds more especially in terms of dps as the vast majority of damage spells top out at level 20 or less. You're effectively removing reasons to actually stay in either magister or draconic for wizards because the most useful elements of both can simply be twisted in - such as the +3 to dc from magister or energy burst from draconic. The only additional benefit they can get is the +3 to max spell level for certain spells or schools, and that's somewhat irrelevant if you're going down the DC route, and of course the bonus to int - compare that to all the benefits you can get from shiradi and I'd say that you'll be seeing many switching over.

There seems to be this opinion that you are either DPS or DC, in DDO you can't really be pure DC as so many mobs are immune to various spells particularly bosses but not just restricted to them. So DPS is important for any wizard regardless, also as it stands we would need to drop some of our existing feats which we use to get our DCs up to the level required to take these new feats.

I think there should only be one new feat - either standard epic feat or an epic destiny feat. Roll the other one into a benefit for the 2 caster destinies - we need to have some reason to take them, and/or add a generic increase at a couple of the innates that increases both caster level and max caster level for all spells, particularly for magister because lets face it it needs all the help it can get.
ehh wizard is the only class that will be not benefiting from leaving the draconic or magister --- no int in the other EDs, and Shadowdancer is a massive loss of spell points. But the sorcerer will not have any reason to choose arcane EDs over the exalted angel ED.

[AlexIII]

To hit the horse again, if the epic +caster level doesn't break spell damage caps it doesn't help pure caster dps. Granted, the +spell pen is very welcome, but that's not the intended goal as written.

One thing you might try is updating maximize and empower to give a bigger boost at epic levels. At low levels, 75 or 150 is huge. In epics its less than the total amount we get from enhancements, spellcraft, implements, items, etc.

The general tread of recent updates has strongly pushed the importance of DPS. It would be nice, and encourage build diversity, if the changes made getting enough DPS easier, letting more resources go to other aspects, or if DC's were given a little boost in epics to make getting good DC's less build-consuming. It would give more build resources to diversity and make new epic feats, especial ones as important as the proposed would be, sting less.

[nibel]

Okay, one more note: Part of the DC issue is that for the majority of mobs in epics, and high end heroic elite, every save is their "good" save and there really is no benefit to targeting their vulerabilites as in general they don't have any.

They have good and bad saves. The major problem is the DC gap between primary school and the other schools. Assuming generic class, +3 Spell Focus, +3 Magister Twist, +6 DC TF stick, +2 Yellow Augments, and you have a +13 DC on your main school. This gaps gets larger if you have extra enhancements that buff a specific school, like most caster trees have.

If you use the +3 all DC instead of the +6 TF weapon, then you lower the gap to "only" 5. But remember that to lower your DC gap, you gave up on a +15% chance on your main school.

So if you face a mob with, let's say +40 Will and +50 Fortitude. 10 points difference in saves is a huge difference. However, you are necro-specced, that 13 DC gap actually means you have BETTER chances to hit it with a Finger of Death than a Hold Monster.

[MrWindupBird]

Interesting proposal. Casters definitely scale poorly into epic now, and it's good that you're considering changes to address that.

************************************************** ***********************************************
The crit damage first: this provides another means of growth in spell damage, other than spellpower, which scales up poorly into epics. In this regard, it's a good thing. I am not a fan of tying it to feats- epic feats are precious already, and arguably for casters more than other classes: epic spell focus, epic spell pen, ruin, hellball are all extremely useful, and the level 26 spellpower feats are good. Requiring displacement of any of these will blunt the effect of increasing crit damage.
Quick calculation of increased damage due to +40% crit damage:

-Assuming 50% spellcrit chance (requires empyrean magic, at the high end of what is possible. Certain multi-class builds incorporating FVS can get higher, but this is a realistic high-end for sorcerors. Wizard is a bit lower), no crit damage enhancements.
Current: 0.5 x 1 + 0.5 x 2 = 1.5 x (spell damage)
With feats: 0.5 x 1 + 0.5 x 2.4 = 1.7 x (spell damage)
So, about 13% increase in spell damage. At 40% crit chance, this works out to a 11% increase in spell damage, and 9% increase at 30% crit chance. Also worth noting is that warlocks gain relatively less from the increased crit damage, since they already have access to +60% crit damage through Tainted Scholar, but it's a small difference.

It's a nice change, but won't even up casters by itself. Tying it to feats isn't a good idea either. An idea earlier in the thread about placing +crit damage in ED cores is a pretty solid one I think, and +crit chance could work well there too. Magister, Draconic, Fatesinger, and Primal Avatar are all in bad need of updating anyway.

************************************************** *****************************

Caster levels are a thornier problem. For pure 20 casters, increased caster levels are irrelevant for damage anyway: almost every damage spell caps at 20. Only exceptions that come to mind are black dragon bolt, polar ray, and necrotic ray. So, shuttling the increased caster level around doesn't make much of a difference, other than granting more spell penetration at 28, and when in off-destinies. For multiclassed shiradi spammers, this will have a pretty big beneficial effect, allowing them to generate more procs. A 1 wiz or sorc splash will be able to reach the max level for magic missle without any other enhancements or gear under the proposed system, and a /6wiz splash (common for chain missles SLA/spell) will be able to hit the maximum number of procs for chain missles with gear and enhancements. I don't really have a problem with making shiradi casters better, but I'd like for it to improve DC-based casters at the same time, and this doesn't do that.

As others have noted, the problem is that max caster level increases are needed much more than caster level increases. I can cast fireball at level 40 on my sorceror, but that's way less impressive when the max caster level is 18 (and that requires me to spend points in Draconic to increase max levels by 3).

Good that these things are being considered though.

[Iriale]

Yes this, even tho i really like the idea of spell crit damage, thinking about adding caster levels to epic levels and crit damage feats will just promote shiradi builds.
We dont need a buff to shiradi. They got nerve, and that is more then they need.

To add crit damage to destenies /exalted magister and draconic looks like a way better solution to me, in cores so that it cant be twisted
I'm concerned; you and I are coinciding in opinion too much in recent times lol

Yes, the crit thing should go in caster EDs (primal avatar too, think in druids). I think that shiradi builds deserve a little buff, but not a big boost. If shiradi need more dps, devs can add it to shiradi procs… maybe, eliminate/reduce some of the nerfs that the ED had in the past.


you have a lot of experience with sorcerers. What do you think about eliminating the metamagic cost in epics?

[Dandonk]

Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


De-coupling caster level bonuses and EDs is a good thing, IMO. Makes it less painful to run in other EDs for casters, and opens up more options. Nice.

I'm not really concerned about lower caster levels at the first few epic levels at first glance, those levels go quick anyway.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)
Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


I'm not sure if this will be enough for "regular" casters, as opposed to the weird multiclass builds. But I'm willing to see the effect first, before calling for more buffs.


We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

Do keep in mind that casters have a lot of "needed" feats already. EMT, Epic Spell Focus, possibly some spell penetration. And having to choose between doing real damage at epic levels and trying out the fun epic spells seems a bad, bad idea.

[BoBoDaClown]

Pretty expensive for my caster bard.

Can see this as being awesome for people who aren't chasing DCs and people with extra feats.

It may pigeon-hole a few more people into pure dps caster builds as they find it easier to switch off from the DC chase.

[Douglas21]

I like the caster level change, but it's mostly tangential to the damage issue. Every damage spell has a cap on how much caster level affects its damage, and hitting that cap for every spell in the game is trivial already.

I don't think feats are the way to go for boosting epic caster damage. Those epic feat slots are already needed for save DC boosts, even for damage casters - the selection of damage spells that don't have saves is nowhere near robust enough to allow damage casters to ignore save DC.

Instead, I suggest adding yet another bonus to epic character levels. Melee attackers get melee power, ranged attackers get ranged power, multiclass below-cap damage casters get caster level on their not-yet-capped damage spells, pure damage casters get... nothing.

Some options for what bonus to give:
Max caster level. Pro: Maintains the advantage of pure class over multiclass. Con: Has no effect for Warlocks, unless you change Eldritch Blast to scale by caster level. Consume would also need to be changed to include caster level somehow.
Universal Spell Power. Pro: Helps everyone and has no cap. Con: Might boost healing too much, unless you leave healing spell power out of it. If large enough to be meaningful to focused dps casters, would be disproportionately huge to anyone else. Spell power is already very high, the amount needed to have the desired relative effect would be quite high. Gives no advantage to pure class.
Universal Spell crit chance. Pro: Helps everyone and has no meaningful cap (100% crit chance is nowhere near attainable so far, I'm pretty sure). Con: Not finely tunable without getting into fractions of a percent, which I suspect the engine doesn't support. Gives no advantage to pure class. Either: Helps Warlocks more than other classes, as it amplifies the crit damage bonus that is so far unique to Warlocks.
Universal Spell crit damage. Pro: Helps everyone and has no cap. Con: Gives no advantage to pure class. Either: Helps Warlocks less than other classes, as Warlocks already have crit damage bonus so this increase would be smaller relative to what they already have.

Looking at these options, I'm leaning towards giving both spell crit chance and spell crit damage. Split the benefit appropriately, and the greater/lesser relative benefit to Warlock will cancel out. If giving advantage to pure class builds is desired (which would be a change from the current game where destinies already let multiclass builds max out the damage spell caster levels), combine the max caster level and spell crit chance options, though that might result in too large an increase.

Let's see, what split is appropriate for crit chance and crit damage? The math gets a bit involved (I put it in the code block below), but it works out to this: If "+5% crit damage" means "add 5% of normal non-crit damage", then Warlocks balance with other damage casters at 5% crit damage per 1% crit chance from epic levels. If "+5% crit damage" means "add 5% of already-doubled critical hit damage" then Warlocks balance with other damage casters at 3% crit damage per 1% crit chance from epic levels.

Assuming the former interpretation, I suggest adding both 1% crit chance and 5% crit damage to the benefits of Epic Power.


Base crit damage: Everyone but Warlock is dealing double damage on spell crits. A pure Tainted Scholar Warlock has +60% spell crit damage. I'm not sure if that means 60% of the normal base, or 60% of the normal crit. I'll run the numbers for both.

Base crit chance: I'll use a Sorcerer for comparison. 5% from Magical Training, 8% from Savant enhancements, let's say 20% from a lore item, and another 5% from some combination of elemental form, multiclass enhancements, an insightful lore item, and/or mental toughness feats. That's 38% total for the Sorc. For Warlock, 5% from Magical Training (spend a regular feat on it if needed), 5% from Soul Eater 5th core, 20% from lore item, and 3% from insightful lore and/or mental toughness. That's 33% for the Warlock.

Now for the math with variables. N = normal non-crit damage. D = crit damage bonus for epic level. C = crit chance bonus for epic level.

If "+5% crit damage" means crit damage is increased by 5% of normal non-crit damage:
Sorc damage before = N * (1 + .38 * 1) = N * 1.38
Sorc damage after = N * (1 + (.38 + C) * (1 + D)) = N * (1.38 + C + .38D + CD)
Sorc damage increase ratio = (1.38 + C + .38D + CD) / 1.38
Warlock damage before = N * (1 + .33 * 1.6) = N * 1.528
Warlock damage after = N * (1 + (.33 + C) * (1.6 + D)) = N * (1.528 + 1.6C + .33D + CD)
Warlock damage increase ratio = (1.528 + 1.6C + .33D + CD) / 1.528

I want the increase ratios to equal, so:
(1.38 + C + .38D + CD) / 1.38 = (1.528 + 1.6C + .33D + CD) / 1.528
(C + .38D + CD) / 1.38 = (1.6C + .33D + CD) / 1.528
1.528C + .58064D + 1.528CD = 2.208C + .4554D + 1.38CD
.12524D + .148CD = .68C
D = .68C / (.12524 + .148C)

For a +1% crit chance (which means a value of .01 for C in these equations), D = .0537, or about +5% crit damage increase.

If "+5% crit damage" means crit damage is increased by 5% of normal crit damage:
Sorc damage before = N * (1 + .38 * 1) = N * 1.38
Sorc damage after = N * (1 + (.38 + C) * (1 + 2D)) = N * (1.38 + C + .76D + 2CD)
Sorc damage increase ratio = (1.38 + C + .76D + 2CD) / 1.38
Warlock damage before = N * (1 + .33 * 2.2) = N * 1.726
Warlock damage after = N * (1 + (.33 + C) * (2.2 + 2D)) = N * (1.726 + 2.2C + .66D + 2CD)
Warlock damage increase ratio = (1.726 + 2.2C + .66D + 2CD) / 1.726

I want the increase ratios to equal, so:
(1.38 + C + .76D + 2CD) / 1.38 = (1.726 + 2.2C + .66D + 2CD) / 1.726
(C + .76D + 2CD) / 1.38 = (2.2C + .66D + 2CD) / 1.726
(C + .76D + 2CD) / 1.38 = (2.2C + .66D + 2CD) / 1.726
1.726C + 1.31176D + 3.452CD = 3.036C + .9108D + 2.76CD
.40096D + .692CD = 1.31C
D = 1.31C / (.40096 + .692C)

For a +1% crit chance (which means a value of .01 for C in these equations), D = .0321, or about +3% crit damage increase.

[Mahatu]

They have good and bad saves. The major problem is the DC gap between primary school and the other schools. Assuming generic class, +3 Spell Focus, +3 Magister Twist, +6 DC TF stick, +2 Yellow Augments, and you have a +13 DC on your main school. This gaps gets larger if you have extra enhancements that buff a specific school, like most caster trees have.

If you use the +3 all DC instead of the +6 TF weapon, then you lower the gap to "only" 5. But remember that to lower your DC gap, you gave up on a +15% chance on your main school.

So if you face a mob with, let's say +40 Will and +50 Fortitude. 10 points difference in saves is a huge difference. However, you are necro-specced, that 13 DC gap actually means you have BETTER chances to hit it with a Finger of Death than a Hold Monster.

I am well aware of the difference, as I state in my post. Both issues are part of the problem. It is still the case though that all mob's saves are extraordinarily high and the difference between their good saves and bad saves is not significant enough to matter.

[Angelic-council]

Yes this, even tho i really like the idea of spell crit damage, thinking about adding caster levels to epic levels and crit damage feats will just promote shiradi builds.
We dont need a buff to shiradi. They got nerve, and that is more then they need.

To add crit damage to destenies /exalted magister and draconic looks like a way better solution to me, in cores so that it cant be twisted

Yeah. In the end, the difference between DC 60 reflex save and DC 70 save would be huge in EEs. For that, DPS caster must take x3 specific caster past lifes and 1 wizard past life, totaling +4 DC, ontop of that, 3 evocation focus feats = 7 DC. Not to mention, +3 DC and +2 DC from arcane sphere = 12 DC. This is a lot of work, considering casters have very limited feat selection(not wizard). How about shiradi. They can simply roll 1st lifer, choose shiradi destiny and ready to go. Just need to grab usual maximize, empower and quicken, no DC needed. Maybe also add mental toughtness just to enjoy this extra SP and + 2 critical bonus (little taste of goodness). How about epic feats - 40% damage multiplier.

We all know how hard it's to land a DC spell in storm horn or ToEE (EE). Casters are already struggling in maximizing their DC highest possible... even 1 extra DC would sutisfy many casters. Not shiradi. In fact, I remember Sev was saying that, devs are considering to add another DoT spell vs red names, and that they don't want shiradi casters to be the only option. Well, this idea would make that "shiradi is the only choice" happen.

[UurlockYgmeov]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.


Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

mostly like this. just kindly remember to make low level buff spells scale as well (so resist should grant 40 at cl:20+) etc.

[deredriel]

I play a pure dc caster PM since 5 years and my main pb is in ee to deal with boss and epic ward trash. I don't know the pbs have other caster classes and multi classes (if they have) but take time to read posts and advices. Andoris is really a good caster, and play multi, pure , dc , sword casters. Think he could be a good advisor. they are many great players and clever enough to don't want to be op.
It's not so easy to make clever changes. i think then in EN or EH or with EE usual trashes, we can be less powerfull, but difficult to be less powerfull in EN or EH and more powerfull in EE against red names or epic ward trashes for dc pm.
As i say on other posts, many boss now have 150/200K HPS, i can understand , you don't want we instakill, charm, hold them, but ruin which is my best dps spell cost 100 sp for 3K/3.5K without critical. Then i need 50/70 spells to kill one with a full blue bar and casting no other spells to buff, heal me ...
Burst is a good mean to deal dps, less expensive but greater cooldown. We can't be too close without taking many damage even with displacements etc.
Many time i die in EE taking too quickly great damages.
i don't have a clear idea of what must be done, you have hard core gamers and occasional gamers, old players and new one, pug groups, guild groups, lone players but sure need to do something for spell casters, the magic system need to be deeply change i think. Hard to give at a pure caster better dps in EE (i think we need it) and less power in EN or EH (scaling power? level?). If you give us an an effective way to improve dps in epic, think we don't need it in en and eh.
i think vargouille, you start something positive, reading and answering posts of players, it's always pleasant that pbs will be known and having considerations. good luck and thanks for that.
ps: sorry for my english (european players)

[Silverleafeon]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

First impressions with lots of details incoming.

Thank you for considering thus.
I do feel strongly this situation should be addressed.

Players have suggested various solutions in the past, and there are many different good possible paths.
Very pleased that you debating them.


In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

Fawngate the Druid, Fawngate the Cleric/Fvs, and Fawngate the Sorcerer totally agree. Fawngate the Wizards is still in a huff about having all her web spells burnt away so she will not be attending this discussion.

There is a massive damage spike at level 20, followed by monster hit points scaling while casting damage remains fairly straight line.


We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.

Fawngate the Druid is unconcerned with DCs at this time, however she does worry about spell damage. Those prone mobs must die! The other Fawngates are content with address one issue at a time as this one is much more pressing and less complex to deal with.



Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


Very good, we untie caster levels from epic destinies.

Fawngate the Druid feels this is a bold step forward and may tilt a few builds. She does feel this will scale the power surge more in line with monsters hit points and this makes her happy.

Fawngate the Cleric/Fvs highly welcome this change, more spell pen is always welcome at higher levels.

Fawngate the Sorcerer plots new and exciting builds opening up for her.



These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.

Fawngate the Sorcerer pondering how much time she will be in the appropriate sphere with a finished destiny and below level 25....then she smirks, as permanent power gain for a small amount of temporary game hours is quite pleasing.




New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I



Yah, for big numbers!
Yah, for using the new system!
Yah, for more damage via rewarding more pursuing more crit chances!
Yah, for more variation in builds.
Yah, for more damage without increasing sp costs.

Fawngate the Cleric/Fvs rejoices....Fawngate the Druid ponders which feats to give up for these and wonders about being human again...Fawngate the Sorcerer is deep in thought atm and does not comment as she is planning and doing number crunching.



This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

Hmm...if you raise min level/tinker you might consider something like this:

Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change) feat


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 24, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)



Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change) Epic Destiny Feat


Passive
+30% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I, Divine or Arcane sphere finished, min level 26


The idea is to scale the power surge not allow it all at the front or back end; giving up one each of epic destiny and epic feats lightens the overall burden.

Fawngate the Druid like the idea of one of the two feats being an Epic Destiny feat. She usually has a spare feat there.

Fawngate the Sorcerer likes the second feat being slightly more powerful than the first.



We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves.


I highly welcome more possibilities as level 30 brings big opportunities to DDO design.
A level 30 feat called intense spell variation would be very welcome, debate on!



We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals.

I agree these changes are fundamentally positive.
Its hard to say no to improvements that are not overpowered.

Its bold to break caster levels away from Epic Destinies, but overall I like the idea. It opens up lots of new possibilities.

Feats are precious, offering power that way is easy to do.



We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

I agree. Well done Varg and company, keep up the good work.



Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!


A few extras to add:

revist Epic Power

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: None

Description

+3 Melee Power
+3 Ranged Power
+6 Universal Spell Power {I feel this is a low bid, and could be 10 instead.}

Note This feat is automatically given to all characters each time they gain an Epic level.



As mentioned above research the metamagic Intense Spell or the many variations possible. Basically this epic metamagic feat increases max caster levels.


Debate adding a new +X00 universal metamagic and the ramifications of the increasing importance of SLAs that are free to metamagic.


Introduce high level modern items that reduce sp costs of metamagic feats. This is very important to consider with the upcoming epic sentient greensteels. There are no augments (that I am aware of atm) that do this and we do have a lot of yellow slots we can grind out for our orchard gear.


Introduce more Epic Spell Feats including the Possible piercing DoT and conversion of an already existing spell coded into an epic spell


A level 30 Extra Twist Epic Destiny Feat {requires all spheres finished}


Could we have an Epic Destiny Feat at 29 and 30? Pretty please?


ect...

[PsychoBlonde]

Manipulating caster levels isn't going to really change damage that much for a lot of stuff, because many spells (almost all of them, actually) have maximum caster levels.

[IronClan]

Big ups for putting this on the front burner, the Epic levels = caster levels instead of shackling them to ED choice is freeing and a good idea, one offered up many times on the forums and PC. Granted this will have most of it's benefit later when you guys allow heroic spells to scale higher.

I love the idea of giving SP based casters a way to get more crits but I would like to offer a solution that does not require lowering our already borderline DC's (Epic feats on a caster are often Ruin + Great stat + Great Stat:

Sorc T5 "Elemental Mastery" Add X1 to Spells of the appropriate element
Sorc T4 "Elemental Affinity" If you have T5 Elemental Mastery in your primary element, you make take this to add .2/.5/.75 Spell crit multiplier in your secondary element. Cost is 2/2/2 this would guarantee a loss of defensive AP's to spend making the Sorc give up defense for offense in the secondary element.

Wizard T5 Arcane Supremacy Passive .5 multipier.

Druid T5 gain .2/.4/.6 to spell of your chosen season for 1/1/1 ap, (then please modify Seasons herald to allow choosing of season like Sorc's choose savant).

FvS and Cleric AoV and DD: T5 X1 to Alignment spells Light and Fire spells, Another T5: .15/.25/.5 to Force/Untyped.

Problem with the feats: a Warlock gets X1 to everything (.6 in cores and .4 from feats) so type the feat bonus as the same as the Warlock cores maybe?

Benefit of the feats: they are easier to afford on Wizards, and Wizards are the furthest behind the curve with heroic damage spells.

Personally I am okay with the feats, but I would really like to see the above more nuanced solution, then make the feats .10 each or maybe .15 each and thus somewhat less obligatory and more of an option for Nuking focused toons. This would put Warlock at .8 or .9 multiplier instead of X1.

[Hamlin]

This may require giving up some other feats...

Vargouille, we haven't had a new spell since Ronald Reagan was president, aside from Hellball (horrible despite the awesome name) and Ruin. Now you're thinking about introducing two new feats to reduce their usage even more? And why is the current spell list so final anyway? In my last pug there was one caster. The vast majority of the time there are no casters, or a melee caster variant who just buffs himself with his spells. I know you guys have some internal numbers somewhere that says casters are gods, but I'm not seeing it. And either no one else is either, or they're tired of casting the same spells for 8 years and a breath of fresh air (something NEW) needs to be breathed into these classes. Particularly the arcane casters. I'm a founder. Guess how many fireballs and lightningbolts I've thrown. Once you've wailed your 394,725th mob, you've wailed them all.

If you really want to get some excitement into the caster classes, we need something NEW. This might be a welcome change for some, but it's still really small. My melees are still more interesting. Even warlocks are launching with existing spells! And no, I don't count their eldrich blast...those are like punches at range.

When, if at all, can we expect some new SPELLS?

[Silverleafeon]

As stated, this would not be touching maximum caster levels. That's something we might look at in the future but not for this change, which is mostly moving the existing buffs from Epic Destinies into Epic Levels, which seems like a clear win at this time.

A bold more and a good one.

I think Failed Legends promoted that last year a lot.

This eases pressure off of Epic Destiny Structure as a whole which is very good.

I still feel that Epic Destinies should increase to level 10 along with the level cap going to 30, and this actually makes that move better not worse. It increases future versatility and give you more options.

[Theolin]

Worries
taking one level of a caster & being able to cast at level 9

-For both utility spells and damage spells
-Think MM & other no save damage spells
Dislikes
crit damage increase

-I just would never account for the "added" damage as it only applies on crits - basically something nice but don't count on it
-If i figure I crit 35% of the time then even a 40% increase amount to only a 14% increase in damage so it looks much better than reality - and this is assuming zero spell power ......
Would Like
base damage increase

-Spellpower
-Max spell level (Maximum damage 10d3+30 could become 18d3+54 for fire ball for example)

[Cleanincubus]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.

Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


First part seems pretty pointless to me, at least when it comes to my pure class Pale Master. I can see 2 offensive spells, that I personally use, that this may help (Necrotic Ray & Death Aura). Beyond that, every other offensive spell I use is at most capped at level 25. So if maximum level of spells isn't going to be touched in the near future, this change is pointless to me. If this change is specifically meant to help multi-class characters, then please scrap it immediately. There need to be tradeoffs when considering pure classing verse multi-classing.

For the second part, no, no, and no. Do not touch Epic Destinies, unless you absolutely have time to not only tweak them all properly, but to add missing ones for every class, and add a connection from every sphere to every other sphere. As past history has told, this will be changed, and nothing will be touched again until years down the road. This unacceptable. Epic Destinies that do provide bonuses to Caster Levels can be accessed from level 20 on. For example, the Magister & Draconic Incarnation ED Trees. If you fill out the tree, you can have +6 Caster Level, well before level the highest max of Level 25, for most spells. Sure +6 isn't +8 (or +10 when level cap reaches 30), but none of that matters when most spells max out before you hit level 28 or 30. If players choose to play different ED Trees to max them all out, or chose ones that don't fit their class, then that's their choice.

In fact, what are you going to do about the Magister and Draconic Incarnation EDs' Innate/Core abilities? Just keep them at +50 SP, and do nothing else until maybe you work on ED's in the future? That is incredibly weak.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.
I like this idea. Gives more options available to players.



We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!
Simply put, if you don't have the time to do it right, then don't do it at all. It makes no sense to me to make any changes, until everything else that will go along with it are hashed out. I truly don't see how this needs to happen right now, when there are so many other changes that will need to be made in the future, to truly make them effective.

[HastyPudding]

So, I went away for a while and came back and saw this thread to see what people had to say. I have to say I'm severely disappointed.

Does anyone but me realize this is a definite nerf? Spell penetration is a CASTER LEVEL check. Removing CASTER LEVELS from epic destinies LOWERS spell penetration. This means, when you hit level 20, you have SIX LESS CASTER LEVELS than you did before this change if you had a maxed destiny, at a point in the game you really need it the most. Only when you reach level 26 do you have the power you had before, and only at level 27-28 do you even remotely see any difference.

Naturally, I'm speaking from a strictly 'this class fits much better in this/these destiny(s) than in any other' scenario. This is essentially a wizard nerf (who only really function as a DC caster in Draconic or Magister), who are already getting hit hard when warlocks come out who can almost do what they do with spell DC's and deal a lot more damage with no cost. I love warlocks, but dangit, you're stepping on the wizard's toes to do it.

On the whole, you get +2 caster levels total for end game. Wait what? That's right, there is no end game in DDO. All you gain is +2 caster levels to make it 0.01% easier to farm heart seeds so you can iconic or epic reincarnate.

[moo_cow]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.


Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

Varg this is actually fairly interesting. But a question. Is this going to be adding 40 spell power or will it actually be 1.4x the damage.

Also adding caster levels will only work on spell pen, energy burst, and dragons breath. I think increasing damage on energy burst and dragons breath is a bad idea considering they crit for 20 K all the time.

Regarding the complaints about caster levels on epic levels only .... Give us the regular 5 in the cores and add +3 to the final core perhaps?

[Silverleafeon]

A bit of math fun right?


How much is +20 crit bonus worth?


So it stacks with the +100% right?

It only triggers with a spell crit which would be in the +?% range?

I know a Cleric 15/16 ~ Favored Soul 4/5 can approach 50% and that is giving up everything including implosion to do it.

I would suspect a typical build w/o imper magic would be more like 25% or a bit more?


So, say a toon casts a 250 damage spell with 400 spell power and 25% spell crit chances?
What kind of increase would they see?


Old normal damage = {250 damage *400} = 1000 damage ?

Old Spell Crit = damage doubled = 2000 damage ?

Old total damage = {1000 damage * 75%} + {2000 damage * 25%} = 750+500 = 1250 damage


New normal damage = same

New Spell Crit = damage multiplied by 240% = 2400 damage ?

New total damage = {1000 damage * 75%} + {2400 damage * 25%} = 750+600 = 1350 damage



Total increase in damage at the cost of 2 feats = 1350/1250 = 107% increase in damage


D0o0o0o0o0o0o00m...etc...
This is lame compared to the HUGE hit point ramp we find in epic monsters.
I am sorry but I must ask you to raise your numbers a lot.


I will counter your 20% and ask for 50% per feat.
Willing to listen to counter offers at this time.



In the extreme example, giving up implosion (multi-instant killing), the 25% increases to 50% (more or less) and the numbers changed to:
New total damage = {1000 damage * 50%} + {2400 damage * 50%} = 500+1200 = 1700 damage
Total increase in damage at the cost of 2 feats = 1700/1250 = 137% increase in damage


Ok, so i see something else here that is very important ~ spell crit chance highly influences such


So what about this counter of a counter proposal:



Epic Spell Critical Boost I

Passive
+25% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)
+2% Spell Crit Chance


Epic Spell Critical Boost II (name subject to change)

Passive
+33% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I
+3% Spell Crit Chance







Let us compare to the proposal by me:

Epic Power

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: None

Description

+3 Melee Power
+3 Ranged Power
+6 universal spell power

Note

This feat is automatically given to all characters each time they gain an Epic level.




Assuming toon has 400 spell power (significant enough without silly boosts that are short term), we are increasing by 60 universal spell power at level 30.

The total increase would be 115% increase in damage. This is feat free and double what the first math version provided. Notice that even this was considered way too low by current monster hit point percentage increase in previous math that I did.

[pjw]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.


My vote: get it right, don't just do a partial solution if it's not ready for U26.



...For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.
...
We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky ... A thread for another day.
...


Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.



Fine but make this STACK with ED levels, not replace them. Schindl-whatsit drow would be very rough without +5 CL at level 23-ish.




Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)



Bad idea. Please don't remove these.



These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere.


It's a boost for Shiradi, which is really not needed. It just makes cheesy lottery-based game play more effective.



...
This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


Then they were very silly players.



New proposed Epic Feats:

Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)
...

+20% Critical Damage with Spells

...

Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)
...

+20% Critical Damage with Spells

...


Please NO!

Anybody but Shriadi lottery-casters are feat starved.



Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

First some numbers:


Pure casters probably have at least 20% total crit chance (over 30 is quite easy)
Each 1% of crit chance represents a 1% increase of DPS after spell power
If a caster already has 20% crit chance, adding another 40% more crit represents an overall 33% total increase: (160/120) = 1.33.
Spending two feats to get a 30% increase in DPS is deeply underwhelming. One feat, "Improved Crit: Weapon Type" on a swashbuckler gives a 15% increase to crit chance, which at end game is around a 15% chance to do 4x damage (deadly, seeker etc, base damage of 100 usually translates to 400+ crits), usually a lot more. Or at least a 30% DPS boost (0.3*4 + 0.7) / (0.15*4 + 0.85) = 1.9/1.45 = 1.31. One feat.


I'm not sure this even comes close to addressing boss HP.

Second, some historical notes:


Caster DPS was nerfed a few years back when maximize/empower no longer multiplied potency.
They were further nerfed when the long-held rule that for the same ML, universal potency was 2/3 of element-specific potency, and matched 2ML higher.
And finally, crit multipliers were cut from up to 4-ish down to a flat rate of 2x
This was done because the DPS to "too hard" to control in such multiplicative cases for casters.
Shortly afterwards melees got high double-strike values which multiplied with attack speed which multiplied with melee power, combined with massively increased crit chances multiplying with increased crit multipliers.


One of these changes is not like the other.

So, what do I suggest?


Since Epic Levels add melee power, they should also add Universal Spell power. Since Spell power is so (relatively) pathetic, the numbers should add a real 2-4% to total DPS per level (or whatever is in line with melee power increases). This would mean around 18 Spell Power per Epic Level.
Add "Improved Critical" for spells; 2x crit chance instantly. Make it Heroic.
Add 5th tier caster ED options to increase crit mutiplier.
Add 3rd/4th tier caster ED options to increase crit chance.
Add 5th tier (or 4th) caster ED options to allow DoTs to stack extra times. Niacs with 10 stacks sounds useful.

[caberonia]

This is pretty much what i think, seems like a major buff to hybrids and multiclasses while offering little extra for the pure builds

This is exactly right. Most spells cap the max caster level in mid to high heroics so other than multiclasses the majority of pure casters won't see much benefit from the change. It does add to potential multiclasses with casters though I'll give you that.

I do applaud that the devs are finally looking at the issue of spells in epics.

[moo_cow]

I would go as far as to say Shiradi's DPS is on par with Draconic Incarnation. Energy Burst is a must-twist for arcanes (sorcs in particular), so it's difficult to say DI can hold it over Shiradi. Energy vortex is strong, but given its a slow dot centered on the caster i would say it's damage is on par with the double rainbow chain. Dragon Breath can only be used 5 times per rest and with a CD of 1 min, is on par with joy of the queen, we can call it the defensive version of DI's dragon breath.

Shiradi pulls way ahead with nerve venom though, since the cooldown on daunting roar is TWO MINUTES and only lasts 15 seconds, while nerve venom's duration is indefinite so long as you're alive and have the SP. Pair the nerve venom with twisted energy burst and your DPS will at least be on par with DI, but much safer and less SP and DC dependent.

...The rest on both sides is pretty much fluff that balances out IMO.

A shiradi can't keep up the dps on trash mobs as well as draconic. Shiradi will have more sufficent boss dps though if they still dot.

[HastyPudding]

This is exactly right. Most spells cap the max caster level in mid to high heroics so other than multiclasses the majority of pure casters won't see much benefit from the change. It does add to potential multiclasses with casters though I'll give you that.

Correct. All of those 18/2 or 15/5 or 12/7/1 or whatever builds will see a buff but the pure casters won't see much of a difference, if at all. This works PERFECT with shiradi casters, something which doesn't need a buff, by any means. Heck, shiradi casters shouldn't even be a thing.

[Iriale]

So, I went away for a while and came back and saw this thread to see what people had to say. I have to say I'm severely disappointed.

Does anyone but me realize this is a definite nerf? Spell penetration is a CASTER LEVEL check. Removing CASTER LEVELS from epic destinies LOWERS spell penetration. This means, when you hit level 20, you have SIX LESS CASTER LEVELS than you did before this change if you had a maxed destiny, at a point in the game you really need it the most. Only when you reach level 26 do you have the power you had before, and only at level 27-28 do you even remotely see any difference.

Naturally, I'm speaking from a strictly 'this class fits much better in this/these destiny(s) than in any other' scenario. This is essentially a wizard nerf (who only really function as a DC caster in Draconic or Magister), who are already getting hit hard when warlocks come out who can almost do what they do with spell DC's and deal a lot more damage with no cost. I love warlocks, but dangit, you're stepping on the wizard's toes to do it.

On the whole, you get +2 caster levels total for end game. Wait what? That's right, there is no end game in DDO. All you gain is +2 caster levels to make it 0.01% easier to farm heart seeds so you can iconic or epic reincarnate.
Well, today few players play wizards--- dps rules, and wizards are behind in dps. Even fawngate forgets his life as wizzie lol. But several persons have indicated the problem with the spell penetration. If devs do it, I hope that they add more penetration in arcane EDs.

I am more concerned about this change will make even more appealing superstrong EDs like exalted angel, divine crusader or shiradi, while the arcane EDs are left in the dust and the intelligence builds still lack of desirable options outside of their sphere. I think this should be delayed until devs make a deep review of all EDs, mainly the three arcanes, Shadowdancer and primal avatar. If is done now, cha builds will have an extra boost when they have actually an unfair boost in DC with exalted angel, or a very nice dps & heals in divine crusader.

[HastyPudding]

A shiradi can't keep up the dps on trash mobs as well as draconic. Shiradi will have more sufficent boss dps though if they still dot.

A Shiradi caster doesn't use nearly as much SP as a sorcerer in draconic. Not even close. The damage-per-cost is far and away better for a shiradi caster. A shiradi caster can cast dozens of magic missile spells with the same SP cost of a single max/emp spell. The damage potential is so much higher.

[Iriale]

D0o0o0o0o0o0o00m...etc...
This is lame compared to the HUGE hit point ramp we find in epic monsters.
I am sorry but I must ask you to raise your numbers a lot.


I will counter your 20% and ask for 50% per feat.
Willing to listen to counter offers at this time.


Help me in my crusade for free or very cheap metamagic (in spell points) in epic! Spell critics are nice, but we also need a better stable dps, and with free metamagic this is achieved without increasing the damage. Keep on permanently the metamagic feats on epics is prohibitive in spell points, but the hp of epic enemies makes it mandatory!

Devs, we have invested in these feats… let us use them extensively in epics! Metamagic is a luxury in heroics… a necessity in epics.

[moo_cow]

A Shiradi caster doesn't use nearly as much SP as a sorcerer in draconic. Not even close. The damage-per-cost is far and away better for a shiradi caster. A shiradi caster can cast dozens of magic missile spells with the same SP cost of a single max/emp spell. The damage potential is so much higher.

Yes they are more sp efficient. If you know how to use clickies to your advantage such as maximize and heighten clickies then you would not have an issue with spell points on a caster. I have zero issues with spell point usage while still destroying the damage capabilities of a shiradi. Basing this on cost per spell makes no sense at all.

[Iriale]

Yes they are more sp efficient. If you know how to use clickies to your advantage such as maximize and heighten clickies then you would not have an issue with spell points on a caster. I have zero issues with spell point usage while still destroying the damage capabilities of a shiradi. Basing this on cost per spell makes no sense at all.
No, do not lie. clickies are a temporary aid-band and not a solution ... they help you in one combat, two at most. clickies are not infinite.

shiradi can have his boost, but does not need much help as the rest of casters. I'm not saying that it should not to have a boost, but designers should add crit to each caster ED, and do it in % different depending on the needs of each ED, same as not all martial ED add the same melee power. shiradi has his dps on his procs… buff the procs if is needed, but not all EDs need the same love.

Spell crit on feats is a bad idea, sure.

[HastyPudding]

Yes they are more sp efficient. If you know how to use clickies to your advantage such as maximize and heighten clickies then you would not have an issue with spell points on a caster. I have zero issues with spell point usage while still destroying the damage capabilities of a shiradi. Basing this on cost per spell makes no sense at all.

It shows up the most in epic elite quests. Sorcerers and especially wizards burn through a ton of SP in epic elites. So can shiradi casters, but their damage is much more sp efficient. That's what I'm getting at. Now, they want to add critical damage FEATS, something which DC-focused casters are already short on, to increase DPS. This does almost nothing for most casters, but is a clear buff for shiradi casters who don't rely completely on DC's. That's completely bogus.

[AlexIII]

Help me in my crusade for free or very cheap metamagic (in spell points) in epic! Spell critics are nice, but we also need a better stable dps, and with free metamagic this is achieved without increasing the damage. Keep on permanently the metamagic feats on epics is prohibitive in spell points, but the hp of epic enemies makes it mandatory!

Devs, we have invested in these feats… let us use them extensively in epics! Metamagic is a luxury in heroics… a necessity in epics.

I agree that we need more (metamagiced) spells per rest in epics, especially with ED's being such a big source of them. (grinding Legendary Dreadnought 4 is not fun). Free meta-magics would accomplish this, but also obsolete a large number of enhancements and a fair number of items. Better methods (to my point of view) would be stacking cost reduction (flat or percentage) to all spells, or a % or flat spell point pool increase. It still works out to meta-magic being more usable, but doesn't obsolete stuff. It also still pays to have a un-metamagic-ed button for the monster at 2% health, leaving a little more tactics in play.

[moo_cow]

It shows up the most in epic elite quests. Sorcerers and especially wizards burn through a ton of SP in epic elites. So can shiradi casters, but their damage is much more sp efficient. That's what I'm getting at. Now, they want to add critical damage FEATS, something which DC-focused casters are already short on, to increase DPS. This does almost nothing for most casters, but is a clear buff for shiradi casters who don't rely completely on DC's. That's completely bogus.

Perhaps it should not come in the form of feats. If it is granted to both without the use of feats draconic will still dominate shiradi regardless of how the buff is implemented. So shiradi doesn't have to spend feats on dc's and they don't have to try to be useful. Those feats and efficient spell points come at a cost of doing less damage compared to draconic casters.

[Silverleafeon]

Pure casters probably have at least 20% total crit chance (over 30 is quite easy)
Each 1% of crit chance represents a 1% increase of DPS after spell power
If a caster already has 20% crit chance, adding another 40% more crit represents an overall 33% total increase: (160/120) = 1.33.


Its crit damage not crit chance.
Ease to mix the two up.



Spending two feats to get a 30% increase in DPS is deeply underwhelming. One feat, "Improved Crit: Weapon Type" on a swashbuckler gives a 15% increase to crit chance, which at end game is around a 15% chance to do 4x damage (deadly, seeker etc, base damage of 100 usually translates to 400+ crits), usually a lot more. Or at least a 30% DPS boost (0.3*4 + 0.7) / (0.15*4 + 0.85) = 1.9/1.45 = 1.31. One feat.


Point well taken, and might I point out that this poster is complaining about not enough power for two feat when his math is in error of being way too high.



I'm not sure this even comes close to addressing boss HP.

Well said, hunting for pickforks!
Back in a bit.




Second, some historical notes:

[LIST]
Caster DPS was nerfed a few years back when maximize/empower no longer multiplied potency.
They were further nerfed when the long-held rule that for the same ML, universal potency was 2/3 of element-specific potency, and matched 2ML higher.
And finally, crit multipliers were cut from up to 4-ish down to a flat rate of 2x
This was done because the DPS to "too hard" to control in such multiplicative cases for casters.
Shortly afterwards melees got high double-strike values which multiplied with attack speed which multiplied with melee power, combined with massively increased crit chances multiplying with increased crit multipliers.


One of these changes is not like the other.

So, what do I suggest?


Since Epic Levels add melee power, they should also add Universal Spell power. Since Spell power is so (relatively) pathetic, the numbers should add a real 2-4% to total DPS per level (or whatever is in line with melee power increases). This would mean around 18 Spell Power per Epic Level.
Add "Improved Critical" for spells; 2x crit chance instantly. Make it Heroic.
Add 5th tier caster ED options to increase crit mutiplier.
Add 3rd/4th tier caster ED options to increase crit chance.
Add 5th tier (or 4th) caster ED options to allow DoTs to stack extra times. Niacs with 10 stacks sounds useful.


Interesting reading thank you.




Varg you are being a little bit timid with parts of your proposal which is good, willing to counter offer as desired.

[Jetrule]

So, I went away for a while and came back and saw this thread to see what people had to say. I have to say I'm severely disappointed.

Does anyone but me realize this is a definite nerf?

Pretty sure a few posters echo your concern. I know I suggested leaving the caster level bonuses in ED.'s and implementing the epic level caster level bonus as a non stacking with the ED bonuses.. That way you can if you wish run in other destinies till 25 and still get some bonuses then get the extra bonuses 26 through 28 or 30.

Alternatively they can be left in destinies and made stacking bonuses to caster level.

Or remove the caster bonus levels in E.D.s and replace with spell pen +1 per level. So only that aspect stacks.

These changes need to be looked at from the perspective of the upcoming cap change the proposed changes provide more options for characters. Always a fun thing for me.

[phillymiket]

Hmmmm.
I didn't read the five pages of response.
I'm wanting to be a pure caster.
Not sure if this helps me.
It seems like it makes me want to split classes even more and be a spam caster like everyone else even more.
If I'm reading correctly I would be caster lv 22 in a main class plus caster lv 14 in another, or 12 with a 2 splash of something defensive when I hit lv 28. It would be even sweeter to split when we go to lv 30 with this system.
Most everything would be at caster level cap anyway. Level 28 in only one class has too much diminishing returns it seems.

Maybe consider having the Pure Class Capstone offer benefits to DC that unlock at certain points during Epic levels?
Like +1 DC at 21, 24 and 28 or something?
Or maybe have the Capstone raise caster level of spells instead. Something.
Give me a reason to be pure.

The feats are nice but kind of 6 of 1, half-dozen of another, if they take up your epic feats.
Don't know which, epic crit or the damage spells, will edge the other out but it's not earth shaking power bump, I don't think.

I like that this is a 'baby step'. Good move. I say try this and maybe bump it up a bit if it's underwhelming (it might be just that). Better that then some KRAZY OP changes that swing the pendulum wildly again and add more creep.

[fmalfeas]

Yes they are more sp efficient. If you know how to use clickies to your advantage such as maximize and heighten clickies then you would not have an issue with spell points on a caster. I have zero issues with spell point usage while still destroying the damage capabilities of a shiradi. Basing this on cost per spell makes no sense at all.

Clickies? You mean Lesser Maximize (Found only on a Crystal Cove dagger, Noxious Embers, and Epic Noxious Embers) and Lesser Heighten (found only on Deific Diadem and Epic Deific diadem).

So, you want to balance SP costs around a special event item, and raidgear from what is really the hardest raids out there? Is that what you're saying?

[moo_cow]

Clickies? You mean Lesser Maximize (Found only on a Crystal Cove dagger, Noxious Embers, and Epic Noxious Embers) and Lesser Heighten (found only on Deific Diadem and Epic Deific diadem).

So, you want to balance SP costs around a special event item, and raidgear from what is really the hardest raids out there? Is that what you're saying?

It was merely an example of efficiency, perhaps it could have been better worded. They save a little bit of spell points while nuking. People who don't use them shouldn't have much of an issue either.

[Kaytis]

An undergeared sorcs is going to be running at 600+ in his main element easily by then

Spouting nonsense like this does not help anyone. An unbuffed hyper-geared sorc can break 500 at level 28. Typical "under geared" players will be around 400 to 450 standing. Empower and Maximize will take 500 to 725 behind the scenes, and buffs will add a small amount to that, so your point stands: 50 more spell power will not be particularly noticeable, but lets deal with real numbers so a rational decision can be made.

To Vargs post: there are two kinds of boosts in the Draconic destiny. Those that increase spell levels, and those that increase maximum caster levels. The latter is the most beneficial kind, because almost all spells have maximum caps that peak early on, and only max caster levels will override the caps. Polar Ray is an important exception, having no max level cap, so spell level boosts are exceptionally useful for it. There are a couple epic destiny abilities that have no cap either so spell level boosts are extremely valuable for those.

Sorcerer PRE core abilities also increase spell levels, and the capstone increases maximum caster level.

TOD sets increase max caster levels (and supposedly critical to hit and damage).

Arcane augmentation items also increase spell levels.

Unfortunately:

-------------------------------------------------------
Many of these things have never worked properly.
-------------------------------------------------------

There have been long threads that showed pretty clearly that most spells are simply broken and do not take some or any of the supposed boosts into account.

But when and where they do work, they make an enormous difference to the effectiveness of certain spells, SLAs and epic abilities. Differences that I personally rely on. I strongly believe that before you start down this path, you need to check that the existing code actually works. If you intend to take away 5 to 10 different sources of spell level increase and max caster level increase where they do actually work without being certain that the equivalent changes will even trigger, this could be a disastrous nerf to an extremely popular class. A subscription canceling in droves kind of nerf. We don't want to see that again. It's too soon since the last one.

Further, if you do take away all those enhancement core boosts, Epic boosts, TOD rings, and offer only the alternative of having to drop two more feats to take the now mandatory crit damage boosts, what on earth do you intend to offer sorcs in lieu of having lost those class-centric boosts? Will sorcs be weaker than before? Will they lose their status as the games cannons (albeit glass ones)? This would completely defeat the purpose of this change, and for that reason alone you should at least be tapping the breaks, and make sure you are not heading for a ditch.

[Iriale]

I agree that we need more (metamagiced) spells per rest in epics, especially with ED's being such a big source of them. (grinding Legendary Dreadnought 4 is not fun). Free meta-magics would accomplish this, but also obsolete a large number of enhancements and a fair number of items. Better methods (to my point of view) would be stacking cost reduction (flat or percentage) to all spells, or a % or flat spell point pool increase. It still works out to meta-magic being more usable, but doesn't obsolete stuff. It also still pays to have a un-metamagic-ed button for the monster at 2% health, leaving a little more tactics in play.
Obsolete a large number of enhancements and items? why? the free metamagic should be obtained if you have the enhancement reduction of enhancements + item with reduction + reduction via ED. if you only have the reduction of ED, you will have cheaper metamagic but not so much. Only obsolete the clickies... and honestly, they are disgusting to use and lasts very little. Clikies can remain for those who have not invested in enhancements or play in a not caster ED. Everybody wins! currently metamagic feats are underused in epic... or empty the blue bar in the blink of an eye.

anyway, the metamagic reduction enhancements are too expensive for the number of APs that cost (2/tier with 3 tiers... ouch ...), they should be improved a bit.

[Iriale]

Clickies? You mean Lesser Maximize (Found only on a Crystal Cove dagger, Noxious Embers, and Epic Noxious Embers) and Lesser Heighten (found only on Deific Diadem and Epic Deific diadem).

So, you want to balance SP costs around a special event item, and raidgear from what is really the hardest raids out there? Is that what you're saying?
and they are exclusive items... the clickies don' t last longer lol

[Silverleafeon]

Nice start, thank you for taking this on, I hope all can go back and forth for some interesting solutions.
Thanks.

[Silverleafeon]

and they are exclusive items... the clickies don' t last longer lol

Indeed in a ten minute end fight, how long will these clickies help?

Its the same old, hit points going thru the ceiling ruins all balance....

[AlexIII]

Unfortunately:

-------------------------------------------------------
Many of these things have never worked properly.
-------------------------------------------------------

There have been long threads that showed pretty clearly that most spells are simply broken and do not take some or any of the supposed boosts into account.



Important consideration we haven't mentioned yet. Since we really do wan't this to work, and not find spells here and there that don't actually scale for the next few years, we are looking at a spell-power boost. (not to mention the 'maximum caster level' not being raised issue) I think adding it to epic power would be a great idea, though obviously more than the melee and ranged power.


Though you've said DC's are likely not part of this, I have to point out they make a huge DPS difference if the save isn't at the point where bosses fail on less than 20, each +1 effectively doubles damage 5% of the time. (resulting in a 10% increase) More when accounting for resistances and evasion.

This is especially important for bosses which have higher saves, and one of the key problems is they have too many hit points relative to spell damage.

[AlexIII]

Obsolete a large number of enhancements and items? why? the free metamagic should be obtained if you have the enhancement reduction of enhancements + item with reduction + reduction via ED. if you only have the reduction of ED, you will have cheaper metamagic but not so much. Only obsolete the clickies... and honestly, they are disgusting to use and lasts very little. Clikies can remain for those who have not invested in enhancements or play in a not caster ED. Everybody wins! currently metamagic feats are underused in epic... or empty the blue bar in the blink of an eye.

anyway, the metamagic reduction enhancements are too expensive for the number of APs that cost (2/tier with 3 tiers... ouch ...), they should be improved a bit.

Perhaps I misunderstood you; I was under the impression that you wanted something "empower and maximize no longer cost anything" which, unless it allowed using the meta-magic to reduce the base cost (Weird!) would obsolete them. While I agree the efficient meta-magic is a bit pricey (don't forget to add the +2 Spell power and +4 spell points for Archmage, little thought it be), Casters are not weak in heroic play and modifying those enhancements would change things, though a little improvement wouldn't hurt after the boosts melees have been getting (23% less spell damage for wearing a steel can).

as to adding the reduction in a ED... casters would be relying even more on being in an appropriate Destiny or require using valuable twist of fate slots.

[HatsuharuZ]

While I like having double the epic caster levels I currently possess, and have them with any ED, I think that your proposal is a bit much, and it isn't buffing the right things.

So, here is a counter proposal:

1) +1 to Caster Level (and later +1 Max CL) on odd epic levels, starting at 21, and an additional +1 CL at level 28 (this last +1 CL would later be moved to level 29).

2) +3 universal spell power and +2% spell crit chance added to "epic power" at each epic level.

3) Don't bother with the epic feat line that improves spell crit chance.

[Ziindarax]

Raise the maximum caster level alongside raising caster levels. This can be accomplished either by setting the caster destinies to raise caster level caps, or by including it with epic casting boosts. As far as destinies themselves, why not have each core grant about 10-25 spell power per core? With lesser casting destinies (such as Avatar of Nature, or Shiradi) granting lesser degrees of it? Magister could, perhaps receive the biggest boosts to make it worth using compared to other destinies.

I also second #'s 1 and 2. :)


We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.


Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

[EllisDee37]

The main problem I see is running the low-level epic drow content with less spell penetration seems like a pretty significant nerf to my wizard. That's a weird effect of an attempt to strengthen casters.

[HuneyMunster]

High level epic damage comes from raid gear.

Raid gear sucks for playing through a caster life since it all starts with only spell power and no lore, so all starts inferior to RNG items. It is too high a minimum level and costly to make caster weapons, which are good for so few levels. In comparison, a base 22 TF melee weapon is good, as is a 24 TF melee weapon, as is a 26 TF melee weapon. You can use that TF melee weapon from 22-27 as you level. That TF caster weapon doesn't have spell power/lore till 26, so for the same cost you can only use it 26-27.

This includes all TOEE and TF gear.

Flawless blue dragon armor was good but you nerfed it.

Twilight was good but the nerf to flawless blue causes it to suck now as well since you can't get enough spell lore to make it work well anymore.

Basically, every single piece of raid caster gear that would help you level or perform in epics was intentionally nerfed or designed to be not worth using at all or worth the investment relative to saving materials for melee lives, because sorcs were OP two years ago and were targeted for nerfs.

As a result, every life I play as a melee damage dealer I have raid weapons equipped, and every life I play as a caster I have RNG vendor trash equipped.

Spell power comes at 24, spell dc or pen at 26 but not till 28 you get spell crit. Thats like a TF melee weapon not benefiting from improved crit feat until level 28.

[Silverleafeon]

Counter proposal offer (changes in red):



Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Each Epic Level now provides +6 Universal Spell Power
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)



New proposed Epic Destiny Feat:
Dragon Spell Boost


Passive
+33% Critical Damage with Spells
+3% Critical Spell Chance.
Requires: Level 26, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.), Completely finished Arcane Sphere




One feat combining the two?
Realize this path already has a high feat tax on it shown thusly:


Improved Mental Toughness
Passive This feat increases the character maximum spell points by 10 at level 1, and 5 spell points for each additional level. Also increases your spell critical chance by 2%.
Stacks with Mental Toughness.



Epic Mental Toughness
Passive Increases your maximum spell points by 200. Increase Spell Crit by 3%
Requires: Improved Mental Toughness


Leaving Mental Toughness at 1%, thereby rewarding those spending more feat for max spell crit chances...

[FestusHood]

A simple solution that would keep the system consistent with the way other classes scale power in epics.

Add 5% critical spell damage per epic level. That would be 20% more at level 24, and 40% more at level 28, so it would be consistent with what is proposed, but wouldn't cost feats.

Also, have you considered adding spell critical damage increases to future gear?

[FestusHood]

High level epic damage comes from raid gear.

Raid gear sucks for playing through a caster life since it all starts with only spell power and no lore, so all starts inferior to RNG items. It is too high a minimum level and costly to make caster weapons, which are good for so few levels. In comparison, a base 22 TF melee weapon is good, as is a 24 TF melee weapon, as is a 26 TF melee weapon. You can use that TF melee weapon from 22-27 as you level. That TF caster weapon doesn't have spell power/lore till 26, so for the same cost you can only use it 26-27.

This includes all TOEE and TF gear.

Flawless blue dragon armor was good but you nerfed it.

Twilight was good but the nerf to flawless blue causes it to suck now as well since you can't get enough spell lore to make it work well anymore.

Basically, every single piece of raid caster gear that would help you level or perform in epics was intentionally nerfed or designed to be not worth using at all or worth the investment relative to saving materials for melee lives, because sorcs were OP two years ago and were targeted for nerfs.

As a result, every life I play as a melee damage dealer I have raid weapons equipped, and every life I play as a caster I have RNG vendor trash equipped.

I feel this difficulty slotting lores more especially on my druid, which uses so many different elements. At level 26, i'm still using the level 16 cove dagger for the lores. I dont have any problems slotting the spell power. In my offhand i'm using that orb that gives 150 radiance and devotion spell power, but i'm still wearing a level 19 sage's skullcap just for the radiance lore.

I do think making some spell lore augments would be a good move. Obviously they could be at a lower value than static gear. I'm just not sure which color augment they should go in. Red would be the obvious choice i guess.

[Silverleafeon]

A simple solution that would keep the system consistent with the way other classes scale power in epics.

Add 5% critical spell damage per epic level. That would be 20% more at level 24, and 40% more at level 28, so it would be consistent with what is proposed, but wouldn't cost feats.


I could support this direction.



Also, have you considered adding spell critical damage increases to future gear?

Hmm...this would certainly stir the pot.

Epic Greensteel Options !!!
Bring it on!

[Delacroix21]

As stated, this would not be touching maximum caster levels. That's something we might look at in the future but not for this change, which is mostly moving the existing buffs from Epic Destinies into Epic Levels, which seems like a clear win at this time.

If your not changing max caster levels then this change will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for current caster dps. I cant even believe the community needs to point that out to you.


Character level 28, 20 levels in wizard fireball.

Caster level on Live= 20 (fireball capped at CL 10)
Caster level with your change= 28 (fireball capped at 10)


Well look at that! Not a dang thing changed!


and there are PLENTY of feat choices for casters allready. Adding NEW feats to fix what is currently broken, and causing EVERY dps caster in ddo to respec their feats is just ridiculous. Thats seriously being lazy. The fix is easy= remove the caster level caps.

[Delacroix21]

are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

This is a HORRIBLE beginning. It would be like if the armor re-balance (addition of PRR and MRR) required 2 feats just to be active forcing a mass feat respec like your proposed ideas do. This is the worst Dev idea I have ever read here. Truly shamefull.

[Faltout]

Caster Levels:

- Caster levels affect the spell penetration check. While most of the posters here don't seem to be concerned about low levels like 21-24, those levels are filled with drow and the spell penetration you get from a level 5 destiny is needed before you hit level 25. That loss however can be replaced by getting more past lives. And then in the long run you get 3 extra spell pen (5 when lvl 30 hits).

- Do caster levels affect scroll casting? For instance, what is the scroll success rate of "heal" when you have 4 levels of cleric and 5 levels of divine crusader? Is it 100% success? If so, how would you exclude non-caster classes from gaining access to scrolls and wands without UMD? (Epic Destinies say "If you have any levels in the class")

- Caster Levels do not affect DCs, so any posters arguing about that are confused.

Maximum Caster Level:

- Caster Level affects a spell's damage. Assuming you are not capped by the maximum caster level of the spell. Most of the spells are already capped lower than the caster level we can achieve. We are already at about +5 the maximum caster level of the most powerful (and sp expensive) spells. Without raising the maximum caster level of spells noone gets anything out of this. Multiclass casters already don't have access to higher spells (with higher MCL), while level 17 casters had already reached the MCL.

- The only things affected from the caster level raise are a few spells with caster level 40 (not all usable by damage casters) and spells/abilities from epic destinies. So, is this "magical damage in epic" all about a few abilities that are already the bread and butter of damage casters? (like energy burst and angel SLAs/spells)

Suggestion:

Add +1 to maximum caster level every second epic level (22, 24, 26, 28, 30) at least.

Spell Critical Feats:

- The feats seem good. Casters that need spell pen don't need spell critical so there's a balance there.
However, making one of those feats epic destiny feats is a very good idea. Those spellpower feats in the arcane sphere are awful. It's obvious that a spell critical feat will trump all the other available feats (+20 spell power, Hellball) for a damage spell caster which means they probably need an update as well.

- Critical damage however is still weak. It's not like casters have weapons with extra critical multipliers.

Suggestions:

- Add +1 spell critical multiplier to a savant's element as an addition to the capstone.

- Add +0.5 (or lower) to the spell critical multiplier as an addition to the archmage capstone. (they have arcane supremacy so for 10 out of 90 seconds they will have critical multiplier superior to sorcs).

Conclusion:

Overall the additional feats will increase the damage in epics, but that isn't enough. Monsters come in hordes and with inflated HP for any sp management. Adding sources of critical multipliers may be the way to go. (capstone as per previous suggestion, but can also be from raid gear that could provide another +0.2/+0.5 multiplier which is like 10%/20% more sp except it stacks)

[noinfo]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.


Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

I don't mind the changes for cl to apply to epic levels instead

The problem with the dps solution is that it is requiring people to give up something else for something that is lacking already. This is one of the few times that it should not be about choices.

I would suggest that at 21 all characters get an epic spell casting feat that:
Increases spell damage crit by however many caster levels you have:

pure 20 sorc? 20%
18 sorc 2 fs? 20%
18 sorc 2 pally? 18%

The second feat could then be at 26 for a sequential bump and a choice being made or roll it in to hellball
hellball now gives the spell effect and 20% crit damage. (l28)

[Powskier]

Help me in my crusade for free or very cheap metamagic (in spell points) in epic! Spell critics are nice, but we also need a better stable dps, and with free metamagic this is achieved without increasing the damage. Keep on permanently the metamagic feats on epics is prohibitive in spell points, but the hp of epic enemies makes it mandatory!

Devs, we have invested in these feats… let us use them extensively in epics! Metamagic is a luxury in heroics… a necessity in epics.
This idea is great. A lvl20 innate feat?

[LargoKeyWest]

Here's what you do. If you are Pure, most lvl 20 capstones in the enhancement trees are nice.. but as we see every day, not something people CAN'T live without.

Make it so if you are a pure, single class character, you can take tier 5 in more then 1 enhancement tree.

Hands down, a MONSTER incentive to be a pure class anything, and the best chance you have at reducing mini/meta/maxing

[slarden]

looks good, I think the epic feats should be regular epic feats available at level 21 so you can take both criticals + ruin.

[Silverleafeon]

The problem with the dps solution is that it is requiring people to give up something else for something that is lacking already. This is one of the few times that it should not be about choices.


Well said, +1

Here lies the problem, Epic spell damage does not scale in Epics and needs rebalancing.

When melees needed more damage they got existing feats that they already took increased.

Asking casters to take extra feats for extra damage is a nerf in a way, if that is all you have to offer.

Please remember although we don't want to talk about spell focus, if one figures giving up greater spell focus and epic spell focus that is a loss of DPS = saving throws reducing damage by half.

So, what does giving up 2 DC mean?

More math right?

Ok, simple math, it means a 10% increase for damage to be cut into half.
Or, simplely put, Total damage is decreased by {1 in 10 chance for damage to be half = 5% lose of total damage.}

As you can see in my earlier math, a typical caster might gain a 107% increase in damage, however this would be negated by a 5% loss of total damage. Even the Avenging light spells have DC saves.


Yes, I agree if we get better Spell Crit Equipment it improves (such as the Cleric 15/Favored Soul 5 build) but still I proclaim its time for pitchforks!

http://content.presentermedia.com/files/clipart/00009000/9451/group_torches_pitchforks_md_wm.jpg

[Avocado]

I like the idea of caster levels being given at each epic level instead in destinies. Why? I think it scales better into higher level content kind of like melee/ranged power. You get more powerful as you level, as it should be. Also, not all classes run in a destiny that gives there class caster levels. My druid runs in EA which is cleric and fvs levels and not druid levels. Needless to say, I love this idea.

Maybe another idea could be to give universal spell power for each epic level as well similar to ranged/melee power. I dont think changing caster level into epic levels is that much of a boost. If you are running in your correct destiny you get 6 already. At 28, that is 2 more, which isnt enough. We need spell power too.

Spell crit at 40% extra damage seems about right. My druid hits for a max on 5.5k with divine wrath and 40% would bump that up to 7.7k. That makes me drool uncontrollably.

I would like to see some DC changes to Energy Burst (and other ED caster abilites) because the DC doesnt scale well into higher level epics. Say you have 44 cha at 20 and can get it up to 54 by 28. That is only a 5 DC change. When the DC change for mobs between 20 and 28 is much greater than 5, it stops working well. The mobs jump from CR 45 to cr 70 or higher. Thats not a 5 DC change in mobs. Im not saying it should scale perfectly into higher epics but a little better. You could do similar things to what you did in exalted angel and have the abilites scale with character level. The EA DC abilities scale much better into higher level epics.

[fmalfeas]

I've been thinking about the feats thing, and I'm going to side on 'not the right path'. Don't get me wrong, I'm still firmly in favor of the caster level bit.

Now, having them as choices...yes. Make them Epic Destiny feat options, so that someone who wants to spec full-bore crit-nuke has that option. Or someone doing DCs but wants an extra push on their nukes and dots can burn a very precious feat for it.

But for overall caster DPS...it's not the right way to go. I was looking at my wizard builds, and never since MoTU hit, have I ever had flexible space in my epic feats beyond 'do I take Epic Spell Focus, Epic Spell Pen, or Epic Mental Fortitude first...I /have to take at least two/. At minimum, Epic Mental Fortitude is 8 more Chain Lightning, Polar Ray, or Delayed Blast Fireballs (or 20 more Negative Energy Rays) with a higher chance of critting. Making it a very real source of much, much needed damage and staying power. Not a feat I could give up. If I want to use /any/ non-nukes that aren't Web, Epic Spell Pen is mandatory, especially with Shavarath coming. And unless I settle into the 'Ray Spells Only' school, Epic Spell Focus Evocation (and the Wheloon Sage's Necklace followed by a TF Evocation weapon or the epic Sage's Necklace) is /mandatory/. Even in EH, reflex saves on any rogue/ranger type mob are high enough that if you aren't packing plenty of DC, and backing it up with Heighten, they're just gonna evade everything pretty soon...and that's just trash. But that compounds the Boss damage problem, because it means you're entering the boss fight (which is already going to suck the SP right out of you) already depleted.

This problem is the same one that has Artis complaining about their runearms. In terms of spike-damage (rather than DPS calcs) a barrage from Toven's Hammer or full strike from Lucid Dreams still puts out a respectable punch.../if they don't save/. But the DCs are low enough that it doesn't take long before you just assume that they're making the save. I've stopped even considering casting/runearm artis that aren't toting 1 wiz and 3 sorc PLs, and I feel dirty for that. But the DC issue is very real for them.

I'm not just rambling here. The 'fix the DPS' feats will /cost us DC/ in the current plan. Which will actually make our DPS *worse*. I can have all the crit chance and crit damage in the world, but if the spell is being saved against and evaded constantly, then it didn't matter at all.

[moo_cow]

If your not changing max caster levels then this change will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for current caster dps. I cant even believe the community needs to point that out to you.



Yes, like everyone else he knows that.

[Silverleafeon]

I've been thinking....

+1

[Gljosh]

Two +20% Feats seems WAY TOO STRONG. My undergeared non pure bard easily hits +30% crit chance for the double damage (no bonuses to damage). So I would gain 40% more damage 30% of the time. Why not blend these into the Spell Power Feats? Add Crit chance and crit damage to the Spell Power boost (and make the boost 30 instead of 20).

Also adding a few USP (same breakdown as Melee power) and caster levels to the Epic Levels would help, a few spells have beyond level 20 for max levels.

Also, make bump the Epic Mental Toughness feats 1% crit chance but you can add some crit damage (+10%) and more crit chance (2%).

[Calinthus]

Will this epic level to caster level break the spells ceiling? for example the spell Inflict light wounds- Negative energy is channeled through the caster touch to inflict light wounds on the target for 1d6+2 damage plus 1 per caster level (Maximum caster level 5.), or to heal Undead. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half. Would it be maximum caster level 13 on a lvl 28 cleric?

I know that a cleric is far from a PM, but, in the Rad Serv tree, you can have NO MAX CASING LEVEL! :D

[Calinthus]

This problem is the same one that has Artis complaining about their runearms. In terms of spike-damage (rather than DPS calcs) a barrage from Toven's Hammer or full strike from Lucid Dreams still puts out a respectable punch.../if they don't save/. But the DCs are low enough that it doesn't take long before you just assume that they're making the save. I've stopped even considering casting/runearm artis that aren't toting 1 wiz and 3 sorc PLs, and I feel dirty for that. But the DC issue is very real for them.
.

Err... I'm running EE's with a lvl 22 (now 23) and my runearm hits every time.
'Cor, this life I've not been past Underdark, yet (hitting Demonweb tomorrow), but, still.
It ain't the feats, it's how you play, mate... Strike that. Feats are handy, dang handy, but, really, if you are a good player with your toon....

[Ambitious]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.


Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!


When I read this yesterday, I thought that these are very nice changes. But the more I thought about them, the more I realized that they're actually bad.

Regarding casterlevel :
The benefit for non-shiradi casters (or in other words for not multiclassed casters) is minimal. There are very(!) few damaging spells, for divine as well as for arcane, that don't get capped at a certain casterlevel. A pure caster already gets gets his damage capped. Increasing the level will not increase the damage. While a typical shiradi build just needs to take lvl 1 wizard and get the maximum effect of magic missile (lvl 1 caster + 8 epic level = castlevel 9 which is the maximum effect for mm). The deeper you splash and the more you multiclass, the more you benefit from this change.
But here is the thing: shiradi casters always had great boss dps. They were spamming low spellpoint spells and never had the same problem a traditional caster had. They don't need to get further buffed while other casters are getting left behind.


Regarding Epic Spell Damage I + II:
While I agree that these feats are great, please remember that all caster classes except wizard (and maybe Artificer if you build him as caster) are already very feat starved. If you want to play epic elites, then you always need these feats:


Empower
Maximize
Quicken


For DC casters (and let's not forget that even sorcs need high DC for damage spells, or the mobs will save against it)


Spellfocus
Greater Spellfocus
Epic Spellfocus
Pastlife Wizard
Heighten


Other Feats they might want:


Insightfull Reflexes (in case of an int based caster)
Force of Personality (in case of cha based caster)
Completionist
Mental Toughness, Improved Mental Toughness, Epic Mental Toughness
Spell Penetration, Grater Spell Penetration, Epic Spell Penetration


And now you are adding 2 feats, that are a must have for all casters, who want to do damage. A wizard might fit them in. But what about sorcerer, fvs, cleric and druid? Even with epic spellfocus, the mobs on EE save alot. So what's the choice here. Lose more DC and do more half damage because the mobs save (including your now improved crits), or keep everything as it is. I don't see the improvement here.

[edit] And if you think to put them into the Epic Destiny Feats, it's a very bad move as well. Casters take one Spellpower feat + Hellball. So the choice is: lose hellball or +20% damage for +30% crit damage. I don't think so....


As I said above. At first glance these changes look great. But the more you think about it, the more you realize they are not.

[MrWindupBird]

Two +20% Feats seems WAY TOO STRONG. My undergeared non pure bard easily hits +30% crit chance for the double damage (no bonuses to damage). So I would gain 40% more damage 30% of the time. Why not blend these into the Spell Power Feats? Add Crit chance and crit damage to the Spell Power boost (and make the boost 30 instead of 20).

Also adding a few USP (same breakdown as Melee power) and caster levels to the Epic Levels would help, a few spells have beyond level 20 for max levels.

Also, make bump the Epic Mental Toughness feats 1% crit chance but you can add some crit damage (+10%) and more crit chance (2%).


Not trying to pick on you in particular, but I leafed through the thread and a lot of people are repeating this.

Do the math: +40% critical damage is only a 13% increase in spell damage for a character with 50% critical chance. That's pretty much the best-base scenario. If you have less crit chance, like the 30% you mentioned, then it's even less significant: for 30% crit chance it works out to a 9% increase in spell damage. Do you really think that your bard would become OP if it did 9% more damage? For reference, that's only very slightly more damage than you get from 3x stacking the Energy Criticals arcane past life. It is most definitely not game-breaking, and is at the tail end of noticeable.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Two +20% Feats seems WAY TOO STRONG. My undergeared non pure bard easily hits +30% crit chance for the double damage (no bonuses to damage). So I would gain 40% more damage 30% of the time. Why not blend these into the Spell Power Feats? Add Crit chance and crit damage to the Spell Power boost (and make the boost 30 instead of 20).

Also adding a few USP (same breakdown as Melee power) and caster levels to the Epic Levels would help, a few spells have beyond level 20 for max levels.

Also, make bump the Epic Mental Toughness feats 1% crit chance but you can add some crit damage (+10%) and more crit chance (2%).

How much of a dps increase is improved crit? more than 10% for most builds and you don't need to wait til level 27 to take it, a real melee will take it at level 8 or 9.
How about overwhelming crit?

I don't think this is too much at all.

[L2Marshall]

Reading these proposed changes just makes me feel bad. I don't think they really address any of the issues epic casters really face, and add unnecessary complexity. I really don't feel very good about much of what players have suggested either.

I play a pure cleric, and I can solo ee content with her fairly well, or at least I thought I could. I have been soloing ee dq 1&2 every 3 days along with ee wiz king once a day farming for a shard for an epic ring of spell storing. By playing in divine crusader and switching to melee damage where appropriate I can manage these quests without sp potion usage and I was pretty pleased with that. Until someone recently posted a link to a bard soloing dq 1 in less than 10 minutes. It takes me over 30. None of the proposed changes I have seen would get me anywhere close to that completion time.

My character is heroic/iconic/epic 3x completionist and has almost every piece of relevant gear to her build. I'm missing an epic ring of spell storing and full +7 tomes. Still, she vastly under performs compared to recent changes to this game. I am not sure exactly what the appropriate fix would be to bring balance to the classes, but this thread does not contain it.

I can make a suggestion that would adress most if not all of the caster dps issues though. Give us more/better sp clickies! Currently the only options we really have are baubles and epic ring. The ring is very rare and is only marginally worth the effort. Items like torc are just not enough to keep our sp up through an ee boss fight, taking 400ish damage for a chance get 20-30 is not an appealing trade. Give me a clickie that restores 33% of max sp, maybe 2-3 times/rest and I could afford to blast away at a 400k hp boss. By having it add a % of total sp it should be fairly well balanced between melee/multiclass/pure casters. If that is too powerful at least consider adding several other exclusive items.

I think more sp clickies is a much easier fix than fiddling with mechanics that have been broken and buggy for years and forcing players to make character building choices that make them feel bad. No matter what changes are made the end result is the same, casters need less sp potions to maintain competitive dps, I personally think my current damage output is fine, I just don't have enough sp to make it to a shrine unless I resort to melee damage on my caster, which is only possible because of divine crusader and exhaustive gear farming on a triple completionist.

If clickies are not an option just consider a sp bump at each epic level, that is really all any caster needs, a little more staying power, not necessarily more damage/cast. Also, attaching the boost we get to epic casting damage to RNG seems unduly harsh, we don't get infinite spells, melee toons can fish for criticals all day, casters can't, and adding these critical bonuses heavily promotes very specific multiclass builds.

Just my thoughts on the matter, I hope a lot more thought is put into this issue before anything goes live.

[Blackheartox]

Ok guys, here is a simple projection, as simple as it gets where we can see how much this proposed change can benefit shiradi casters.

So build i take into account is a 12 warlock 6 wizzard 2 whatever /lets go with 2 fsoul for sp and spend out feats on shield stuff since we get free med armor and hella lot prr /mrr from warlock

So you have 12 levels of warlock that gives you 30% spell crit damage, you get from 12 core 20% crit damage and formerly 10% and aura, aka passive shiradi procs, what is there to hate, right?

So lets see what does 6 wizz give us, gives us chain missile that now suddenly with 6 wizzard levels and new mechanic has 6+8 = 14 caster levels (19 is maximum for full benefit), you add in 3 piece abi set which is easy to slot on lv 28 shiradis due to no need of diadem for dcs, cloack generally or boots on casters.
So you have suddenly a lv 17 chain missile with a 6 wizzard splash that also gets free 30% spell critical damage.
So since i assumed we go shield feats, why dont we run lob a few times for fun and craft a 2 evocation tower shield for fun, what did we just do?
We just capped our chain missile, chain missile sla, magic missile sla, while having the best sp efficiency, massive critical chance, we capped our schorching ray and gained 40% crit damage chance on our criticals from feats that dont contradict with any feats we want to take.

So what does this translate into?
A build with highest prr/mrr due to warlock, 30 crit damage from warlock, aura that ticks prolly 4-5 seconds (since we wont have ap due to spending most into archmage for prolly arcane supremacy or possibly just the crit chance, still need figuring out what is best ap spread), 21 ap would be mandatory for crit damage, rest into fsoul for free sp and wizzy for crit chance, while keeping maxed out spells.

I mean, i am ok with that but it will be a bit to strong.
You suddenly gave better damage, better synergy, better survival, and best boss dps to shiradi warlocks?
Let me put this simply, testing a warlock on lama with only passive cores crit damage, i managed to pull off 15-16 k ruin crits while using ONLY 150 spell power crafted crit and empyrian magic.
This split here would have way more spellpower, way more spell crit chance, it would actually be lets see
5 passive
22 item
10 empyrian
2 from mental and improved mental
8 from wizzard
4 from fsoul

Total of 51% fire and force critical hit chance, while having 30 from cores and 40 from feats to a total of 70% crit damage, 10% more over a pure warlock without the cores while keeping all the shiradi spells arsenal and way more spellpower.
That build wont have issues criting for 23-30 k ruin crits with a 51% chance.

This would be one of the best mana efficient boss nuking shiradi proc builds.
I dont know if people realize the stupidity of this synergy and proposal.


This is just a idea of a simple build that can abuse this to the max while having 0 dc casting capability and would be ahead of dc casters in every possible aspect.
Yes i am pretty sure about that due to scaling of crit damage that is better then those pitfull caster levels from sorcs.

Tho a pure warlock might also be to good with all of this, 100% added spell crit damage makes me think that even blasts will be good

[Blackheartox]

Reading these proposed changes just makes me feel bad. I don't think they really address any of the issues epic casters really face, and add unnecessary complexity. I really don't feel very good about much of what players have suggested either.

I play a pure cleric, and I can solo ee content with her fairly well, or at least I thought I could. I have been soloing ee dq 1&2 every 3 days along with ee wiz king once a day farming for a shard for an epic ring of spell storing. By playing in divine crusader and switching to melee damage where appropriate I can manage these quests without sp potion usage and I was pretty pleased with that. Until someone recently posted a link to a bard soloing dq 1 in less than 10 minutes. It takes me over 30. None of the proposed changes I have seen would get me anywhere close to that completion time.

My character is heroic/iconic/epic 3x completionist and has almost every piece of relevant gear to her build. I'm missing an epic ring of spell storing and full +7 tomes. Still, she vastly under performs compared to recent changes to this game. I am not sure exactly what the appropriate fix would be to bring balance to the classes, but this thread does not contain it.

I can make a suggestion that would adress most if not all of the caster dps issues though. Give us more/better sp clickies! Currently the only options we really have are baubles and epic ring. The ring is very rare and is only marginally worth the effort. Items like torc are just not enough to keep our sp up through an ee boss fight, taking 400ish damage for a chance get 20-30 is not an appealing trade. Give me a clickie that restores 33% of max sp, maybe 2-3 times/rest and I could afford to blast away at a 400k hp boss. By having it add a % of total sp it should be fairly well balanced between melee/multiclass/pure casters. If that is too powerful at least consider adding several other exclusive items.

I think more sp clickies is a much easier fix than fiddling with mechanics that have been broken and buggy for years and forcing players to make character building choices that make them feel bad. No matter what changes are made the end result is the same, casters need less sp potions to maintain competitive dps, I personally think my current damage output is fine, I just don't have enough sp to make it to a shrine unless I resort to melee damage on my caster, which is only possible because of divine crusader and exhaustive gear farming on a triple completionist.

If clickies are not an option just consider a sp bump at each epic level, that is really all any caster needs, a little more staying power, not necessarily more damage/cast. Also, attaching the boost we get to epic casting damage to RNG seems unduly harsh, we don't get infinite spells, melee toons can fish for criticals all day, casters can't, and adding these critical bonuses heavily promotes very specific multiclass builds.

Just my thoughts on the matter, I hope a lot more thought is put into this issue before anything goes live.


No offense meant, but put yourself in turbines place.
The best answer they can give you is, we alrdy gave you sp potions.
Deal with it.

But from personal experience, by using bauble, litany, epic litany, diadem, random various maximize discount clickies on either neck or weapon, and eross i have yet to meet a single quest where i had issues with sp managing.
Outside of a mark of course and when unlucky citw, but those are raids


Best suggestion i can give you is to swap to exalted, exalted in angel forms has very nice sp efficiency, yes it takes long to kill something til you build your stacks up, but example of tracker trap (since its popular mana drain fight), i myself have managed on a 17 cleric 3 fsoul numereous times to pull the whole quest without using sp shrine by managing my angel form correctly.
D crusader really has no sp efficient things, well you could look at capstone as a farm of efficiency if you look at it as a boost to dps, but the light sla the capsone sunbolt and ion cannon while retaining sp from light spell casts from form would fix your issues imo, also its the same sphere

[Silverleafeon]

Second counter proposal:



Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Each Epic Level now provides +6 Universal Spell Power.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)



New proposed Epic Destiny Feats:

We plan to grant a bonus Epic Destiny Feat at level 29 and level 30.


Dragon Nest I


Passive
+25% Critical Damage with Spells
+2% Spell Critical Chance
Requires: Level 26, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.), completed arcane sphere


Dragon Nest II


Passive
+25% Critical Damage with Spells
+2% Spell Critical Chance
Requires: Dragon Nest I



Mental Toughness line up now provides +2% spell crit chances



Epic Destiny Feat level 30, all spheres maxed, extra twist slot

[MonadRebelion]

Ok guys, here is a simple projection, as simple as it gets where we can see how much this proposed change can benefit shiradi casters.

So build i take into account is a 12 warlock 6 wizzard 2 whatever /lets go with 2 fsoul for sp and spend out feats on shield stuff since we get free med armor and hella lot prr /mrr from warlock

So you have 12 levels of warlock that gives you 30% spell crit damage, you get from 12 core 20% crit damage and formerly 10% and aura, aka passive shiradi procs, what is there to hate, right?

So lets see what does 6 wizz give us, gives us chain missile that now suddenly with 6 wizzard levels and new mechanic has 6+8 = 14 caster levels (19 is maximum for full benefit), you add in 3 piece abi set which is easy to slot on lv 28 shiradis due to no need of diadem for dcs, cloack generally or boots on casters.
So you have suddenly a lv 17 chain missile with a 6 wizzard splash that also gets free 30% spell critical damage.
So since i assumed we go shield feats, why dont we run lob a few times for fun and craft a 2 evocation tower shield for fun, what did we just do?
We just capped our chain missile, chain missile sla, magic missile sla, while having the best sp efficiency, massive critical chance, we capped our schorching ray and gained 40% crit damage chance on our criticals from feats that dont contradict with any feats we want to take.

So what does this translate into?
A build with highest prr/mrr due to warlock, 30 crit damage from warlock, aura that ticks prolly 4-5 seconds (since we wont have ap due to spending most into archmage for prolly arcane supremacy or possibly just the crit chance, still need figuring out what is best ap spread), 21 ap would be mandatory for crit damage, rest into fsoul for free sp and wizzy for crit chance, while keeping maxed out spells.

I mean, i am ok with that but it will be a bit to strong.
You suddenly gave better damage, better synergy, better survival, and best boss dps to shiradi warlocks?
Let me put this simply, testing a warlock on lama with only passive cores crit damage, i managed to pull off 15-16 k ruin crits while using ONLY 150 spell power crafted crit and empyrian magic.
This split here would have way more spellpower, way more spell crit chance, it would actually be lets see
5 passive
22 item
10 empyrian
2 from mental and improved mental
8 from wizzard
4 from fsoul

Total of 51% fire and force critical hit chance, while having 30 from cores and 40 from feats to a total of 70% crit damage, 10% more over a pure warlock without the cores while keeping all the shiradi spells arsenal and way more spellpower.
That build wont have issues criting for 23-30 k ruin crits with a 51% chance.

This would be one of the best mana efficient boss nuking shiradi proc builds.
I dont know if people realize the stupidity of this synergy and proposal.


This is just a idea of a simple build that can abuse this to the max while having 0 dc casting capability and would be ahead of dc casters in every possible aspect.
Yes i am pretty sure about that due to scaling of crit damage that is better then those pitfull caster levels from sorcs.

Tho a pure warlock might also be to good with all of this, 100% added spell crit damage makes me think that even blasts will be good

This sounds problematic to me.

[btolson]

Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)



Would it be possible to leave the ED bonuses intact, but make them non-stacking with the Epic Level bonuses? This way you don't hurt fresh ER's running in their native sphere, but still allow higher level characters to run in other spheres if they like.


As for the proposed feats, it's nice to have alternatives, but for most characters that's all they'd be: they'd have to trade something else away for these and may not see any actual overall benefit to their damage compared to now. Shiradis are going to be main exception, as this will offer a straight up buff for most of them.



Overall, caster damage is a systemic problem that can't be fixed with the suggestions proposed thus far. The biggest problem is that certain ED abilities/SLAs serve as an epic-crutch and have rendered the vast majority of our spellbooks irrelevant in epic levels.

Possible Fixes:
Liberally dispensing Max Casting levels (or removing maximum levels from most damage spells, but leaving them on healing spells if that's a concern)
Greatly increasing the spellpower progression in epic levels (to the tune of perhaps +300 spellpower at cap)
Simultaneously nerfing Energy Burst so that it remains roughly on par with its current damage output



The bottom line is that we need to make normal spells relevant again, and make certain abilities (like Energy Burst) into useful tools but not end-all-be-all-crutches.

[Blackheartox]

Second counter proposal:



Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Each Epic Level now provides +6 Universal Spell Power.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)



New proposed Epic Destiny Feats:

We plan to grant a bonus Epic Destiny Feat at level 29 and level 30.


Dragon Nest I


Passive
+25% Critical Damage with Spells
+2% Spell Critical Chance
Requires: Level 26, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.), completed arcane sphere


Dragon Nest II


Passive
+25% Critical Damage with Spells
+2% Spell Critical Chance
Requires: Dragon Nest I



Mental Toughness line up now provides +2% spell crit chances



Epic Destiny Feat level 30, all spheres maxed, extra twist slot

Silver, that is to much damage.
You take into account minimal values of crit hit/spellpower in your calculations, which arent realisticall at this point of ddo where almost every caste player has his t3 thforged finished.
Your crit chance calculations are also to low, you said at 1 point 25%, every single caster in ddo can have at least 22% stick 10% empyrian 5% base before any other addition like mental toughnes or tree crit chance.
That is a minimal of 37% crit chance, also there are things like tod sets/libram/temple orb etc etc etc.
Giving us 4% crit chance, and 2 more from mental toughens and a additional 10% crit damage sounds to me like you didnt try warlock.
We should be careful on critical spell damage, this is basically holy sword for casters, and as we get more spellpower items in game, that stat will scale best, so giving it straight out to much at start can backfire in a dozen of threads that start with caster only, i was rejected, casters to op.

I want casters to be able to compete with melles, not totally outperform melles in every single aspect.
In my perfect world, barb is top dps, rogue in sneak is 2nd best dps, sorc is third dps /on non resistant on savant spells/, fsoul is 4th dps and then whatever after that.
I generally prefer monks and sorc, but i dont promote those 2 being top, im promoting the top to be the ones that were in the times when i considerd ddo to be a game where i had a blast and way more fun ;)

Also while i might have projected and said multiple times how i dislike shiradi casting, if people want caster levels added to epic levels as a proxy buff to splash shiradis, i am ok with it. I just consider that a build that you need to put way more effort and time/tomes and past lifes into and possibly money, that the said build should be way ahead of a easy to gear ee rdy shiradi build. My logic might be flawed, but i think a dc caster should never fall behind a shiradi and that it should always in every single scenario be ahead

[Silverleafeon]

Third counter proposal:



Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Each Epic Level now provides +6 Universal Spell Power.
Each Epic Level now provides +1 spell crit chance
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)



New proposed Epic Destiny Feats:

We plan to grant a bonus Epic Destiny Feat at level 29 and level 30.


Dragon Nest I


Passive
+25% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 26, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.), completed arcane sphere


Dragon Nest II


Passive
+25% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Dragon Nest I





Epic Destiny Feat level 30, all spheres maxed,
Extra twist slot


Epic Feat,
Epic Combat Casting
Passive your spells cannot be interrupted
Requires Mobile Spellcasting.



Epic Feat
Metamagic Reduction _____
Passive ____ Metamagic now costs X less.
Special you can take this multiple times, each time choose a different metamagic.


Dragon Maximize
Your maximize metamagic now provides an extra 100 spell power.
This does not increase the sp cost of using it.


New Epic Spell:
Black Dragon Bolt ~ as per the wizard spell.
Min level 24, must be able to cast spells ~ cleric 1, pally 4, etc...

[L2Marshall]

No offense taken, but I think you missed the point. No matter what changes that we get to caster damage it all results in the same end result, players that need sp potions now, no longer need as many once the changes are made.

As far as DC/my build goes: consecration + aura of purification + healing aura + zeal will keep you alive and clear a red alert with very little sp if you are in full plate and a shield. I don't like multiclass in cleric, just personal taste, but there are mana efficient options without fvs splash and spamming incredibly low damage light slas.

That is not the point though, the point is balanced caster damage in epic content, you just posted how unbalanced the proposed changes are for specific builds. By incorporating a few extra sp clickies, or an sp bump to casters in general, pure casters can afford to use metas longer and sustain competitive dps through boss fights. There are no crazy scaling issues in that proposal, just longer periods of the current level of available dps. I feel that the current damage casters can achieve is in the right place, boss fight take an appropriate amount of time, and trash mobs are cleared at a reasonable rate. Increasing caster damage in any way changes all of that, but increasing sp and or sp efficiency should not have a dramatic effect, but would allow casters a more reasonable level of sustainability. I really don't think sp efficiency should be limited to fvs splashes and shiradi spam. Give traditional casters more sp and you can leave everything else alone.

And I am looking at it from turbines point of view, what takes more resources, using existing code to create a few items that regenerate sp, or creating new feats, enhancements, rebalancing multiple classes based on current and future needs, and going back over broken/buggy mechanics to try to achieve the same end goal as just giving casters more sp would achieve? I seriously doubt you would get a single complaint from any caster player over just having pure sp added, and I can't see how any melee players could complain that it would be unbalanced based on current dps achievable via the stronger melee epic destinies.

I don't care if my opinion is not considered by the devs, I just thought it should be stated as an alternative to massive unneeded changes. I will adapt to whatever new environment they create, unless they make shiradi casters the only real caster dps option as per the example you just posted, that is over the top and would drive me away from casting completly.

[MonadRebelion]

So far it looks to me like there are two main problems with the proposed boost to casters: (1) it comes in the form of feats which is not super helpful for casters who don't have feats to spare. (2) Universally accessible raw boosts to power heavily shiradi casting over all others. These problems could be avoided by adding some spell power/crit bonuses to the caster EDs except shiradi (or add some to shiradi if needed to a lesser degree). It may also be time to reconsider the proc rates for shiradi. Rogues with repeaters are running around with machine guns. A ranger pass is coming up. Why not boost the rate of fire on bows a bit to be more in line with repeater builds. Then lower the rate of shiradi procs which weren't designed for those rates of fire. That could help bring shiradis more in line with other casters.

[Silverleafeon]

Silver, that is to much damage.
You take into account minimal values of crit hit/spellpower in your calculations, which arent realisticall at this point of ddo where almost every caste player has his t3 thforged finished.

Your crit chance calculations are also to low, you said at 1 point 25%, every single caster in ddo can have at least 22% stick 10% empyrian 5% base before any other addition like mental toughnes or tree crit chance.

That is a minimal of 37% crit chance, also there are things like tod sets/libram/temple orb etc etc etc.
Giving us 4% crit chance, and 2 more from mental toughens and a additional 10% crit damage sounds to me like you didnt try warlock.

We should be careful on critical spell damage, this is basically holy sword for casters, and as we get more spellpower items in game, that stat will scale best, so giving it straight out to much at start can backfire in a dozen of threads that start with caster only, i was rejected, casters to op.



I don't want to assume every caster can benefit from this reliably:

Empyrean Magic: Passive Bonus: Whenever you cast a fire, light, or healing spell you gain a stack of Empyrean Fervor. Each stack of Empyrean Fervor gives you +2 Sacred bonus to Universal Spell power, +1% Sacred Bonus to Critical Chance with all spells. Duration: 10 seconds. Stacks 10 times.


Yes, we should probably assume an Epic Greensteel of 25% for a particular energy.
The necklace from Orchard assures 17% for sure.

We cannot assume anyone will take the mental toughness line.

We can assume about 8% from an enhancement tree.

We can assume 5% from magical training.

We can wonder if the amounts will be increase in the future.
I am providing sources of increases, and if the Devs want to provide them elsewhere that is fine.

I am not looking at warlock atm, because warlock should be coming into the game balanced to the existing casters; if warlock has much stronger crit chances they might also have less base damage; if warlock has more, then the casters need push upward too.


So the 38% might work, let us assume a caster can get that at level 30.

Doing the math again:

({1000 damage * 62%} + {2400 damage * 38%}) / ({1000 damage * 62%} + {2000 damage * 38%}) = % damage bonus


1532 / 1360 = 112% damage increase minus 5% reduced damage from loss of 2 DC = 107% increased damage overall.

That is lame, very, very lame...


PS could someone check my math, I'm heading for bed...ty

[Blackheartox]

No offense taken, but I think you missed the point. No matter what changes that we get to caster damage it all results in the same end result, players that need sp potions now, no longer need as many once the changes are made.

As far as DC/my build goes: consecration + aura of purification + healing aura + zeal will keep you alive and clear a red alert with very little sp if you are in full plate and a shield. I don't like multiclass in cleric, just personal taste, but there are mana efficient options without fvs splash and spamming incredibly low damage light slas.

That is not the point though, the point is balanced caster damage in epic content, you just posted how unbalanced the proposed changes are for specific builds. By incorporating a few extra sp clickies, or an sp bump to casters in general, pure casters can afford to use metas longer and sustain competitive dps through boss fights. There are no crazy scaling issues in that proposal, just longer periods of the current level of available dps. I feel that the current damage casters can achieve is in the right place, boss fight take an appropriate amount of time, and trash mobs are cleared at a reasonable rate. Increasing caster damage in any way changes all of that, but increasing sp and or sp efficiency should not have a dramatic effect, but would allow casters a more reasonable level of sustainability. I really don't think sp efficiency should be limited to fvs splashes and shiradi spam. Give traditional casters more sp and you can leave everything else alone.

And I am looking at it from turbines point of view, what takes more resources, using existing code to create a few items that regenerate sp, or creating new feats, enhancements, rebalancing multiple classes based on current and future needs, and going back over broken/buggy mechanics to try to achieve the same end goal as just giving casters more sp would achieve? I seriously doubt you would get a single complaint from any caster player over just having pure sp added, and I can't see how any melee players could complain that it would be unbalanced based on current dps achievable via the stronger melee epic destinies.

I don't care if my opinion is not considered by the devs, I just thought it should be stated as an alternative to massive unneeded changes. I will adapt to whatever new environment they create, unless they make shiradi casters the only real caster dps option as per the example you just posted, that is over the top and would drive me away from casting completly.
Honestly, taking into account how high you can reach light spellpower nowadays /highest due to it simply having 30 free from plifes, amazing synergy on a fsoul, and a very nice dd tree (possibly to reach 1000ish light spellpower with every single buff in game, i did calculations long time ago before thforged gear where i was lacking 30 light spellpower to hit 1000 on a test build) i am pretty sure that critical damage will help light cannon builds considerably, they are the ones that will benefit from it the most after shiradi imho.
I personally was never impressed by dcrusder as c primarly caster oriented dest, i used it mainly as melle, but you using it as a hybrid might be ok.
Just after seing potential of exalted, its very unlikely il ever try crusader ;)
Crusader and draconic will be slighlty behind while magister well, it will get more crit damage but i always thought that magister should at least get like 3-5 passive dc in cores.
Should at least be the best dc casting destiny, if nothing else. But that is personal opinion, i think that crit damage alone is a good start.
Now in case we get more crit damage gear, higher spellpower, casters will be ok.


Best suggestion i saw tho was from monkey, where he said that caster dots should create a debuff that stacks and increases the damage of all spells that share the dots element.
So example div pun should create like for example 5% vulnerabilty to light damage dot that stacks 15%, or we could tinker with it and make it maybe 10 per stack or similar.
That is a simple easy enough buff for casters that helps in the place where they lack without entirely breaking the game.
I dont want to imagine what kind of mess critical damage and this whole caster level thing can bring to ddo when they add simple gear like 200 spellpower gsteel or maybe 25% crit damage gsteel basfaajh2 crafted from trio shard or whtever

[Blackheartox]

I don't want to assume every caster can benefit from this reliably:

Empyrean Magic: Passive Bonus: Whenever you cast a fire, light, or healing spell you gain a stack of Empyrean Fervor. Each stack of Empyrean Fervor gives you +2 Sacred bonus to Universal Spell power, +1% Sacred Bonus to Critical Chance with all spells. Duration: 10 seconds. Stacks 10 times.


Yes, we should probably assume an Epic Greensteel of 25% for a particular energy.
The necklace from Orchard assures 17% for sure.

We cannot assume anyone will take the mental toughness line.

We can assume about 8% from an enhancement tree.

We can assume 5% from magical training.

We can wonder if the amounts will be increase in the future.
I am providing sources of increases, and if the Devs want to provide them elsewhere that is fine.

I am not looking at warlock atm, because warlock should be coming into the game balanced to the existing casters; if warlock has much stronger crit chances they might also have less base damage; if warlock has more, then the casters need push upward too.


So the 38% might work, let us assume a caster can get that at level 30.

Doing the math again:

({1000 damage * 62%} + {2400 damage * 38%}) / ({1000 damage * 62%} + {2000 damage * 38%}) = % damage bonus


1532 / 1360 = 112% damage increase minus 5% reduced damage from loss of 2 DC = 107% increased damage overall.

That is lame, very, very lame...


PS could someone check my math, I'm heading for bed...ty

I am pretty confident until proven wrong that all % increasers in ddo stack the same way from couple testing with melle % increasers, sorc/monk debuff % increasers, and vulnerrability test increasers.
They dont get added but you kinda multiply them.
So for example if base is 100% crit damage, you wont have 40 with 2 feats but 1,2 x 1,2 to a 1.44 or actually the 20 + 20 would be 44% more damage.
The more crit damage we get the the more it will be scaled, so if we for example get some gear that increased this, the stacking mechanism would be to our benefit.
Thus what i said, we should be careful on how much we ask.


About emyprian, imo every class can stack and keep it stacked, since it fire light or healing, it complements well with sorc/wizz cleric/fsoul druid and warlock.
I fuled it on warlock with cocoon and hellball simply keeping track of stacks and timing those 2, tho if you play in exalted which would be main caster destiny for cleric/fsoul/druid/warlock you can use the heal sla and the other slas for light damage.
In worst case scenario you can drink cure light wounds potions since those also increase stacks ;)

[L2Marshall]

Any differences of opinion on specific builds aside, we are of the same mind concerning this thread, I don't like any of the proposed changes and I think they cause no end of headaches, regearing, rebuilding issues and constraints on future content. A simple solution is best, whatever format it comes in. Be it reduced metamagic costs, more sp, better dots wharever, the base casting mechanics should not be changed by any large degree. Not many seem happy about the op changes, and I hope the devs decide on another routemail for fixing caster performance.

[Wizza]

I have few problems with this:

1) First of all, I don't think casters need a buff but the everything else needs a nerf. i.e. Barbs, Pala, Rogues, 400k hp mobs etc
2) Of course 1) is not gonna happen, so I'm not even gonna bother on that point.
3) You just buffed EA Sorcerers and Shiradi multiclass wizards to no end. Like literally. Almost full potential Missiles with few levels of Wizards.

[MonadRebelion]

Any differences of opinion on specific builds aside, we are of the same mind concerning this thread, I don't like any of the proposed changes and I think they cause no end of headaches, regearing, rebuilding issues and constraints on future content. A simple solution is best, whatever format it comes in. Be it reduced metamagic costs, more sp, better dots wharever, the base casting mechanics should not be changed by any large degree. Not many seem happy about the op changes, and I hope the devs decide on another routemail for fixing caster performance.

To put dps casters in line with the buffs given to other classes there has to be an increase to dps rather than just an increased spell point pool.

[L2Marshall]

To put dps casters in line with the buffs given to other classes there has to be an increase to dps rather than just an increased spell point pool.

I don't think that is true, I am not even a sorcerer and if I activate max/emp I can out burst most melee. Between ruin, hell ball, word of balance,sun beam, sun bolt, energy burst, and tsunami the damage is there, but that can not be sustained for very long. With max/emp I get 3.5 -4k critical from sun beam/bolt and have no DC issues, word is up to 2x that based on the targets alignment. That is consistent high dps, but not sustainable at all. If that level of damage was sustainable then my damage would be comparable to high end melee dps. If I was getting +40% critical damage I think it would be too high, I have 46% light critical chance (not even the highest possible). I am pretty sure sorcerer can get much higher numbers than me, and I know their ruin/eburst is much higher. The only problem is that you can not kill a 400k hp boss with current sp totals. At ~50 sp/cast it would take almost 100 critical to go through that many hp solo, that's well over 5k sp on my character, (I can't speak for other people) and that is assuming all crits. However for as long as my sp lasts I could keep up competitive dps with most melee builds outside of short duration bursts that are probably too high anyway and should be rolled back to some degree.

[MonadRebelion]

I don't think that is true, I am not even a sorcerer and if I activate max/emp I can out burst most melee. Between ruin, hell ball, word of balance,sun beam, sun bolt, energy burst, and tsunami the damage is there, but that can not be sustained for very long. With max/emp I get 3.5 -4k critical from sun beam/bolt and have no DC issues, word is up to 2x that based on the targets alignment. That is consistent high dps, but not sustainable at all. If that level of damage was sustainable then my damage would be comparable to high end melee dps. If I was getting +40% critical damage I think it would be too high, I have 46% light critical chance (not even the highest possible). I am pretty sure sorcerer can get much higher numbers than me, and I know their ruin/eburst is much higher. The only problem is that you can not kill a 400k hp boss with current sp totals. At ~50 sp/cast it would take almost 100 critical to go through that many hp solo, that's well over 5k sp on my character, (I can't speak for other people) and that is assuming all crits. However for as long as my sp lasts I could keep up competitive dps with most melee builds outside of short duration bursts that are probably too high anyway and should be rolled back to some degree.

My experience tells me an instakill caster is killing stuff faster than melees and repeaters, but no other casters are. So, I guess we don't see eye to eye here. This comment also makes me confused about the post you made earlier about the bard doing in 10 minutes what takes you 30 minutes. Initially, I thought the point was that the bard was out-dpsing you by a wide margin. Am I now to believe the point was not that you were being out-dpsed? Is the point that bards can do in 10 minutes what you do in 30 minutes that they have a lot of helpful problem solving tools your cleric doesn't have, but you think giving your cleric more sp is going to bring his run closer to a 10 minute run? Is the idea that instead slowly cycling through low dps sla's you could unload a bunch of sunbolts to keep up?

[Blackheartox]

So i have a counter proposal.
If you want to keep the caster levels related to epic level, as alrdy pointed out, that is a major buff for specific shiradi builds.
So, lets assume you keep that, most of us caster players know that feats are tight if you want to play dc casting, so this would push us dc behind to get critical damage feats.
So why, just a question, why dont you add critical spell damage into epic destiny cores?
6 cores 7% crit damage each, issue solved.
Dont add anything in shiradi, add to draconic, magister, maybe in exalted but a lesser number, maybe in primal avatar and in d crusader.

Leave shiradi out of it, they got their caster lvel buff which is enough.

How about that idea instead?

[L2Marshall]

My experience tells me an instakill caster is killing stuff faster than melees and repeaters, but no other casters are. So, I guess we don't see eye to eye here. This comment also makes me confused about the post you made earlier about the bard doing in 10 minutes what takes you 30 minutes. Initially, I thought the point was that the bard was out-dpsing you by a wide margin. Am I now to believe the point was not that you were being out-dpsed? Is the point that bards can do in 10 minutes what you do in 30 minutes that they have a lot of helpful problem solving tools your cleric doesn't have, but you think giving your cleric more sp is going to bring his run closer to a 10 minute run? Is the idea that instead slowly cycling through low dps sla's you could unload a bunch of sunbolts to keep up?

If I could keep max/emp going and unload high damage spells throughout a quest, yes I could keep up with high dps melee characters, that was part of the point of my op. I made that comment to acknowledge that casters are being out preformed. I know full well that I can kill trash mobs in ee toee in one cycle of word of balance, sunbolt/beam, that takes seconds, it's not bad or low dps. The issue is the cost associated with that level of dps. Don't get me wrong, I fully believe that casters are being out performed by top tier melee builds by a fair margin, but not because casters can not currently reach high enough damage numbers, but because they can not keep that level of damage going indefinitely the way a melee can with blitz active for example.

I am not a fan of changes to critical damage because it is RNG, and makes fvs splash/shiradi spam builds much more powerful than they already are while not impacting other builds by much as you can see from some of the math provided by other posters. Ino my personal opinion, changes to sp calculations, sp clickies, sp added to epic levels or some other variation of sp efficiency would be a better fix for caster balance than changing critical damage.

It is just my opinion from personal experience with my character, other people may not have the gear / past lives / experience or whatever other factors go into the equation. From my perspective all it would take to make my build competitive with current melee is more sp, or sp efficiency. I believe sorcerer can achieve better dps than cleric so I assume higher sp totals would have the same effect there as well. I have seen druid achievement videos of ee dq2 solo and the dps seemed low, but they were relying on low sp dots rather than high damage spells. Fvs should be able to get higher damage from their spells than a cleric as well, so all in all I think if casters just had more sp, then yes, they could afford to cast their higher dps spells for a long enough duration to keep up with melee characters,

Now, if that is not where ddo is supposed to be, if for example casters are just supposed to be super high spike dps for a short duration then I am wrong, but isn't that where casters were before they were nerfed? They had huge spikes of dps and made lots of content trivial because they could skip most of a quest via invis and/or gather up red alert and destroy everything in seconds, then get to the end fight and have high enough burst dps to kill the boss before it was a real threat?

Maybe I am wrong in thinking just adding more sp to casters would be enough, but I know that messing with critical damage is going to lead us down the wrong path, just blackheartox's theory craft warlock a few posts above prove that much.

Personally, I think sp is the most simplistic most easily manged change the devs could make as a starting point, if further changes would be needed so be it, but as far as baby steps in the right direction go, significant sp increases can't really go wrong. Imo.

[Robai]

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels.
Agreed, but what is better is a point if view.




Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.

This is too much! You mean +8 Spell pen to all builds for free? It will make Wiz/FvS past lives, also Spell Penetration feats useless!





Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)

This is a horrible idea. For max dps you should be in a proper ED!
And yes, at lvl 20 I want to have the power if I've worked for it in the previous epic life!
This change is similar to something like: Blitz/Adrenaline now requires lvl 25.



Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I



It's a good idea to provide more feat options (especially more ED feat options), but +40% crit chance is way too much.
Have you forgotten items like Epic Ornamented Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Ornamented_Dagger_%28Level_20%29)? I mean why bother with +3% crit chance or any Spell Lore items at all if you get +40%?

[Angelic-council]

So i have a counter proposal.
If you want to keep the caster levels related to epic level, as alrdy pointed out, that is a major buff for specific shiradi builds.
So, lets assume you keep that, most of us caster players know that feats are tight if you want to play dc casting, so this would push us dc behind to get critical damage feats.
So why, just a question, why dont you add critical spell damage into epic destiny cores?
6 cores 7% crit damage each, issue solved.
Dont add anything in shiradi, add to draconic, magister, maybe in exalted but a lesser number, maybe in primal avatar and in d crusader.

Leave shiradi out of it, they got their caster lvel buff which is enough.

How about that idea instead?

Seriously.. what is so hard about this. This is so simple and an easy fix. How come some people not seeing this?

This community is crazy really, I'm sorry.. (not including everyone here). How can people be so selfish and don't read what others said, and go like "I haven't read last few pages, this is my idea". It's about reading what everyone said and try to find the solution, together.

I see yet another player's council ridiculous suggestion: give 25% crit damage + 1% crit chance instead of 20%.. like wow, just how many times PC has to troll.
Some people also said, they don't fail DC casting which is a lie. Every SLAs from EDs scale poorly. You can't possibly run a caster with DC 72 fortitude save: energy burst (which is desirable). Even DC 72 is not enough in some EEs.

This topic is about spell damage scaling in epics. When it comes to the epic content, ED is all that is matter. If this idea implemented.. those people who stayed truthful to DC/damage casting will receive 15 - 30% critical damage multiplier buff on day one (draconic, exalted angel, primal avatar, magister). This, doesn't mean they become suddenly OP. In order to get best out of multiplier, caster must have high critical chance, high DC and high spell power, also epic levels (since SLAs scaled with lvl). Didn't turbine add melee/ranged power into cores? just add spell multiplier the same way to casters.

We don't have to mess with caster level here.. just leave it as it's. We don't need 5% crit multiplier per epic level, that means, turbine buffing every single class, builds dramatically. Same goes to 20% damage at lv21 and 24.. we don't need that..

[Iriale]

No offense taken, but I think you missed the point. No matter what changes that we get to caster damage it all results in the same end result, players that need sp potions now, no longer need as many once the changes are made.

As far as DC/my build goes: consecration + aura of purification + healing aura + zeal will keep you alive and clear a red alert with very little sp if you are in full plate and a shield. I don't like multiclass in cleric, just personal taste, but there are mana efficient options without fvs splash and spamming incredibly low damage light slas.

That is not the point though, the point is balanced caster damage in epic content, you just posted how unbalanced the proposed changes are for specific builds. By incorporating a few extra sp clickies, or an sp bump to casters in general, pure casters can afford to use metas longer and sustain competitive dps through boss fights. There are no crazy scaling issues in that proposal, just longer periods of the current level of available dps. I feel that the current damage casters can achieve is in the right place, boss fight take an appropriate amount of time, and trash mobs are cleared at a reasonable rate. Increasing caster damage in any way changes all of that, but increasing sp and or sp efficiency should not have a dramatic effect, but would allow casters a more reasonable level of sustainability. I really don't think sp efficiency should be limited to fvs splashes and shiradi spam. Give traditional casters more sp and you can leave everything else alone.

And I am looking at it from turbines point of view, what takes more resources, using existing code to create a few items that regenerate sp, or creating new feats, enhancements, rebalancing multiple classes based on current and future needs, and going back over broken/buggy mechanics to try to achieve the same end goal as just giving casters more sp would achieve? I seriously doubt you would get a single complaint from any caster player over just having pure sp added, and I can't see how any melee players could complain that it would be unbalanced based on current dps achievable via the stronger melee epic destinies.

I don't care if my opinion is not considered by the devs, I just thought it should be stated as an alternative to massive unneeded changes. I will adapt to whatever new environment they create, unless they make shiradi casters the only real caster dps option as per the example you just posted, that is over the top and would drive me away from casting completly.
Yeah, I said it before: devs should fix first the problem of mana efficiency, and after they will have easier balance a boost on damage. And the problem with mana efficiency, imho, is that the metamagic is TOO expensive. You can't turn on permanently metamagic feats, because they drain the blue bar in a blink of eye. But when you have metamagic on, the dps is not too bad--- very nice on sorc and fvs, ok on druid, low on wizzie, but… work.

If we could use permanently our metamagic feats, yet we need a small up on dps--- but not so big as we need with the current inefficiency metamagic! And it's more healtly for the game… no bigs improvements on dps, only an old source, better used, and maybe a little up if this is not enough.

I guess that a way to regenerate spell points shiradi / fvs style can work too ... but I still think that those who have invested in metamagic feats and enhancements that lower their cost (and are stupidly expensive!!) should have as reward to use those feats in epic without feeling that they are been drained to the bottom each time the feats are been turned up. It's an investment of many feats (empower, maximize, heighten, quicken at very least), and often 16 or more action points for a performance that currently can only be described as veeeeeeeeeeeery expensive for our blue bar.

But, please, devs, in a way or another (metamagic reduction, mana regeneration, or other ways), look for a better mana efficiency in epic. Because I sincerely believe that this is the most serious problem, and if you, devs, improve this, the boost in DPS will not have to be drastic.

[SirValentine]

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.


With you so far. But that's a really vague goal. What, specifically, do you think is wrong? What performance level are you looking to get out of the changes? Is the focus on making already-focused-on-DPS casters better? How should they compare to melee DPS? Or is making DPS a more viable secondary option for other caster builds a goal?

Let me address your two suggestions out of order. First:






New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)





These seem fine. Considering the damage output of melees, I kind of doubt these will make DPS casters overpowered, though if anyone thinks otherwise, I'm open to correction. Having more feat options is a Good Thing, right? And even if it were to surprise us and turn out too powerful, you could tweak the numbers down, 20 to 15 or whatever.






One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.


As a 26/28 Epic Destiny bonus feat is the only way I'd even consider taking them, though, on my build (a DC build not a DPS build), and I might not even then. But there's no way I'd give up a "real" feat slot for what would be a tiny DPS bump.



We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.


Considering how the DC/save landscape keeps getting overhauled...Spellsinger, Harper Agent, now Warlock...that's something you should look at sooner rather than later. Balance is getting further and further out of whack.





Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)2



I have a LOT of thoughts on this...but they fall under the realm of the DC-casting you don't want to talk about, not the damage you do.

As far as damage...who cares? So I cast my spell at caster level 28 instead of caster level 25...when it caps at caster level 15, that's irrelevant.

But as a general concept, this is the way it should have always been. Way back before Epic Destinies were introduced, devs then claimed they would be generic...then implemented them as tightly linked only to specific classes. The caster level thing was part of it. The selection of abilities you can increase is another part. Are you going to let all destinies choose all 6 abilities to increase in their right-hand column? If not, this is a half-way measure that still doesn't follow through on that original promise.






This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25.


I don't feel that should be a concern. More differentiation than just gear between 20 and 28 isn't a bad thing.

But there are other concerns.






These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere.


Right now, a Sorc, or caster Druid or Bard, might well choose to run in Exalted Angel, for higher DCs, at the trade-off of lower caster level. You're removing that trade-off. Is the goal to make EA be the no-brainer for all Wis & Cha casters? Should the thought of a caster Druid running in Shiradi or Primal Avatar, or a caster Bard in Fatesinger, be laughable? What happened to hard choices?

Back to that DC subject... Even though, at the time, I applauded the effect of Transcendental Magic, letting divines and other casters close some of the gap Wizards had in DCs, in retrospect, I think it was a poor means of accomplishing the goal. Though it's outside of the scope of your "damage" concept, I do think you should make caster levels generic, like you suggest, and also make ED abilities raises generic...and also scrap Transcendental Magic, and also buff the DCs of lagging classes elsewhere, like in enhancement trees and/or a Wis-focused "universal tree" or race, not in an ED. All that, as a package deal. Doing just the caster level thing, by itself, I feel will introduce more problems than it solves.

[Iriale]

Seriously.. what is so hard about this. This is so simple and an easy fix. How come some people not seeing this?

This community is crazy really, I'm sorry.. (not including everyone here). How can people be so selfish and don't read what others said, and go like "I haven't read last few pages, this is my idea". It's about reading what everyone said and try to find the solution, together.

I see yet another player's council ridiculous suggestion: give 25% crit damage + 1% crit chance instead of 20%.. like wow, just how many times PC has to troll.
Some people also said, they don't fail DC casting which is a lie. Every SLAs from EDs scale poorly. You can't possibly run a caster with DC 72 fortitude save: energy burst (which is desirable). Even DC 72 is not enough in some EEs.

This topic is about spell damage scaling in epics. When it comes to the epic content, ED is all that is matter. If this idea implemented.. those people who stayed truthful to DC/damage casting will receive 15 - 30% critical damage multiplier buff on day one (draconic, exalted angel, primal avatar, magister). This, doesn't mean they become suddenly OP. In order to get best out of multiplier, caster must have high critical chance, high DC and high spell power, also epic levels (since SLAs scaled with lvl). Didn't turbine add melee/ranged power into cores? just add spell multiplier the same way to casters.

We don't have to mess with caster level here.. just leave it as it's. We don't need 5% crit multiplier per epic level, that means, turbine buffing every single class, builds dramatically. Same goes to 20% damage at lv21 and 24.. we don't need that..
yup, any serious dps increase must be linked to the appropriate EDs, in that way devs can regulate how much dps is given to each ED, the same that not all martial EDs give the same number of melee power. If they want can add a little to each epic level, but a number serious should be linked to the cores of the caster EDs.

Even so, I think devs should first look for better mana efficiency in epic. Because we have some very nice damage sources... but we can use them barely because they are too mana intensive. Do not underestimate that. A better spell critical is needed, but before to start thinking in large numbers, let's look at how we can use better the resources at our disposal.

[SirValentine]

I know that you said you are not messing with maximum caster levels. But just throwing the idea for later anyway:

Link +CL to Epic Level, and link +MCL to Epic Destinies. Maybe even not in "all classes" style, but somewhat thematically (DI raises elemental spells, EA raises fire and light spells, etc)


This is an interesting idea. Not saying I think it's perfect, but it's worth thinking about.

[SirValentine]

I think there should only be one new feat - either standard epic feat or an epic destiny feat. Roll the other one into a benefit for the 2 caster destinies


So what exactly do you think are "the 2" caster destinies?

You don't need to bother answering; that's rhetorical.

[Iriale]

Right now, a Sorc, or caster Druid or Bard, might well choose to run in Exalted Angel, for higher DCs, at the trade-off of lower caster level. You're removing that trade-off. Is the goal to make EA be the no-brainer for all Wis & Cha casters? Should the thought of a caster Druid running in Shiradi or Primal Avatar, or a caster Bard in Fatesinger, be laughable? What happened to hard choices?
With exalted angel there are not choices. It's too good, and with a DC boost for a cha-based build +4 ahead of every other ED. There is not competition.

Anyway here there are two problems: cha-based builds taking advantage of a boost that was for wis-based builds, and that Exalted Angel is an ED that has been reviewed (and improved), while all other caster EDs have not yet been reviewed since its creation.

As I said before, divorce the caster levels from EDs without to do before various balancing changes (SR problems in menace, multiclass builds getting a big boost, unbalancing even more strong EDs…) is problematic.


Back to that DC subject... Even though, at the time, I applauded the effect of Transcendental Magic, letting divines and other casters close some of the gap Wizards had in DCs, in retrospect, I think it was a poor means of accomplishing the goal. Though it's outside of the scope of your "damage" concept, I do think you should make caster levels generic, like you suggest, and also make ED abilities raises generic...and also scrap Transcendental Magic, and also buff the DCs of lagging classes elsewhere, like in enhancement trees and/or a Wis-focused "universal tree" or race, not in an ED. All that, as a package deal. Doing just the caster level thing, by itself, I feel will introduce more problems than it solves.
yes, oh yes. The thing with transcendental magic is getting ridiculous. It's a boost too big for cha-based builds, and devs, you have seen how is raising the DCs of new warlock too. Please, give a deserved bonus to a wis-based builds, but remove transcendental magic and angelic presence. This is reaching a point where it's ridiculous, with primal avatar, draconic incarnation and magister as undesirable EDs and Exalted Angel as the not-brained ED for all cha-based casters… divines or nor divines!

[Holymunchkin]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.


Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

A: 2 feats is a pretty big tax on DC casters in EE
B: This damage helps shiradi equally with DC casters: Shiradi are fine atm.
C: Put the spell critical damage in Draconic and Magister. Since magister could use some love put EVEN MORE into that destiny. EA is fine atm, imo

Alternately make a stacking vulnerability proc' with dots. For wiz/sorc/warlock make it elemental and negative energy vulnerability. For cleric/fvs neg/fire/light vulnerability.

This would not affect melee/ranged damage much and would improve caster dots significantly.

ALTERNATELY OR IN ADDITION: uncap the caster level on dots.

do not code it like you did the ToEE vulnerability weapon procs': IT OVERIDES REGULAR VULNERABILITY STACKS!!! =)

casters do NOT need more trash dps. they need boss dps

[AlexIII]

About emyprian, imo every class can stack and keep it stacked, since it fire light or healing, it complements well with sorc/wizz cleric/fsoul druid and warlock.
I fuled it on warlock with cocoon and hellball simply keeping track of stacks and timing those 2, tho if you play in exalted which would be main caster destiny for cleric/fsoul/druid/warlock you can use the heal sla and the other slas for light damage.
In worst case scenario you can drink cure light wounds potions since those also increase stacks ;)

So... your saying classes which naively have one light spell and no healing should all use fire(most resisted element) or stacks of consumables to keep this up? unless your a pale-master and cant use cure light wounds and just need to use ineffective fire.

[Faltout]

...
If I want to use /any/ non-nukes that aren't Web, Epic Spell Pen is mandatory, especially with Shavarath coming.
...
If you want to use any non-nukes on a damage caster then you'll be trading damage for versatility. Seems like a perfectly fair trade.
You can still take epic spell focus and epic mental toughness, but not spell pen. (Since they are thinking one of them to be an ED feat) Also, if you look at the DC builds posted in the forums, they don't take spell penetration feats because of the lack of SR in end-game.
They instead take 2 epic school focuses and 1 INT upgrade.

[Blackheartox]

So... your saying classes which naively have one light spell and no healing should all use fire(most resisted element) or stacks of consumables to keep this up? unless your a pale-master and cant use cure light wounds and just need to use ineffective fire.

Fire is currently the strongest specialization school for sorcs and other casters due to it being capable of reaching highest dps.
Stacking up empyrian is easy for any build.
Examples:
Sorc- goes fire for imollation for max dps anyways, can and most are in exalted lately so uhm yea
Bard- has a variety of heal spells
Cleric- heal, light what is there to think about?
Fsoul - same as cleric
Druid - ditto same as others with heals
Wizzard- acess to variety of fire spells, can use consumables, but still has acess to fire spells and schoring alone can do the job

Warlock will have the biggest problems with this, but aura can proc empyrian and we will build shiradiwizwarlocks anyways.
I toyed with hellball and heal as rotation to keep it stacked.

Practical game play, any caster that wants to bump his dps, and doesnt go full ****** only dcs will have empyrian twisted and will find a way to use and keep it fully stacked.
If you are not doing that, then yes, you are not playing it correct ;)
Love saying that heh, sorry no offense meant but that is how i played any caster life and i always need to build my characters to be able to solo almost any ee so this might be the view of a ee only full efficiency player and might contradict with view of regular casual players who play in groups and are carried as dc casters.
Empyrian is one of the strongest twists we have out there, not wanting to find a way to keep it fully used is what disturbs me when people say things like you do.

[AlexIII]

Fire is currently the strongest specialization school for sorcs and other casters.
Stacking up empyrian is easy for any build.
Examples:
Sorc- goes fire for imollation for max dps anyways, can and most are in exalted lately so uhm yea
Bard- has a variety of heal spells
Cleric- heal, light what is there to think about?
Fsoul - same as cleric
Druid - ditto same as others with heals
Wizzard- acess to variety of fire spells, can use consumables, but still has acess to fire spells and schoring alone can do the job

Warlock will have the biggest problems with this, but aura can proc empyrian and we will build shiradiwizwarlocks anyways.
I toyed with hellball and heal as rotation to keep it stacked.

Practical game play, any caster that wants to bump his dps, and doesnt go full ****** only dcs will have empyrian twisted and will find a way to use and keep it fully stacked.
If you are not doing that, then yes, you are not playing it correct ;)
Love saying that heh, sorry no offense meant but that is how i played any caster life and i always need to build my characters to be able to solo almost any ee so this might be the view of a ee only full efficiency player and might contradict with view of regular casual players who play in groups and are carried as dc casters.

Im not saying its not possible, or even difficult. I am saying more builds should be viable, and this change should make more builds viable, and possibly nerf the ones that solo ee without a second thought. (though I won't hold my breath of the last bit)

[voodoogroves]

Having just re-entered after a few years, some thoughts.

- Max Caster level is still a soft-cap; increasing CL as many others have said will really only boost splashed-casters.

- Some paths can be effective, but essentially those are because they can stack enhancement, ED and other abilities in a constructive-interference.

If you add damage boosting, consider ...

- Some spell power each epic level; this should be easy to add and easy to tweak

- If you add feats, consider having those feats scale based on # levels in single caster class so that a pure 20 or an 18 will get more benefit out of the feat than a 12.

- Update damage boosting options in EDs that, you know, might not be EA or Shiradi but at a glance casters may stick with. Make Magister's evocation specialist tree not only reduce casting time, but also increase spell damage / universal spell power ... possibly also give Magister a force spell power choice. Add a secondary spell power booster to Draconic as a choice (force, sonic, positive, negative) so that an arti might go elec-force in Draconic, etc., and increase the spell power of the chosen element as well. Give a path on Fatesinger where some options boost sonic spell power. Maybe make some of these in lower-level tiers so they could be good twist options.

- If some base classes or types are underperforming, add tweaks to the heroic enhancement paths.

[Blackheartox]

Im not saying its not possible, or even difficult. I am saying more builds should be viable, and this change should make more builds viable, and possibly nerf the ones that solo ee without a second thought. (though I won't hold my breath of the last bit)

Sorry if i came as rude, but i dont see any build not capable of doing that.
Only way to change it would be, dont know to change empyrian to work on any spell cast.
But what for?
Any build that utilizes casting can do it anyways.
Worst case scenario, you can use wand of endless cure minors ;)

As i alrdy suggested, if they roll with the change they think is good, then we will have shiradi dominance, and even tho dc casters would get a buff, they would be to far behind hybrids and shiradi casters.
Can check my former suggestion about adding crit damage to destiny cores, seems better then this what they propose

[AlexIII]

- If some base classes or types are underperforming, add tweaks to the heroic enhancement paths.

one problem we are seeing is scaling in epics. tweaking heroic enhancements effects a lot more than that. DC casters fail in epics because they need to focus on DC's. And bosses ignore all that. in heroics, you could get enough dps to deal with bosses. now they have stupid hit points.

we see that a lot of the best (in my mind overpowered) builds stack different class enhancement trees; there are only a few spots in these trees that are not open with a splash.

Tangent here: the builds which destroy epic elites by stacking enhancement trees indicates to me they stack to much relative to what pure builds get.


Sorry if i came as rude, but i dont see any build not capable of doing that.
Only way to change it would be, dont know to change empyrian to work on any spell cast.
But what for?
Any build that utilizes casting can do it anyways

Can and can effectively are quite different. Aye, any caster has spells that proc it, but if you want to make a focus on Acid and cold, that basically a low yield expenditure of time and sp.
I would like to see casters able to pick any two elements and perform well(if speced properly); it would be nice to see similarly potent effects for other elements in other trees.

partly my fault: i didn't reiterate my unending quest for more build diversity. One thing that I like about ddo is it has more build options than any other game I've found; to me it was a big part of what made the game stand out.

Devs, ED's do need tweaking, and I get that you don't want to start crunching numbers now. but could we quickly add something to the magister and draconic innates so all the other caster destinies are not what they give and more? Just a bunch of DC boosts in magister would put DC casting... more on the map and revitalize wizards some. Not too much time or effort to worry about scrapping, and its the weakest destiny at the moment, buffs would do it good.

[HuneyMunster]

This is too much! You mean +8 Spell pen to all builds for free? It will make Wiz/FvS past lives, also Spell Penetration feats useless!


Its +3 spell pen over what people currently have which is not exactly game breaking as most casters max caster levels are already capped.. Also those below level 25 will have less than they currently do unless they are in an off destiny.

Also when Epic Shavarath is introduce caster will need the extra spell pen against the epic Devils.



This is a horrible idea. For max dps you should be in a proper ED!
And yes, at lvl 20 I want to have the power if I've worked for it in the previous epic life!
This change is similar to something like: Blitz/Adrenaline now requires lvl 25.


You still need to be in a proper destiny. Having more caster levels does nothing to help caster dps in Legendary Dreadnaught. It would help Necro Sorcerers is Exalted Angel but they would still do more dps in Draconic. Clerics, Fvs and Druids are not exactly a concern as being too powerful and they are all feat starved.



It's a good idea to provide more feat options (especially more ED feat options), but +40% crit chance is way too much.
Have you forgotten items like Epic Ornamented Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Ornamented_Dagger_%28Level_20%29)? I mean why bother with +3% crit chance or any Spell Lore items at all if you get +40%?

Its not crit chance its crit damage similar to how Overwhelming critical improves crit damage

[Enoach]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

First I want to say thank you for putting this on the radar. As the Epic Mob HP increase to keep up with new items/abilities a casters ability to handle this should not be turning to more spell point potions.




In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

I like that you are thinking along the lines of scaling better the damage in the Epic levels, but I disagree with dealing with only one aspect at a time. The reason is that casters actually increase there DPS contribution though more ways than just damage dice alone.


Better Chance to Critically Hit - Most casters in Epic levels are already exceeding 20%. This is dangerous to go to far in, be careful on any permanent Crit chance
Better Critical multiplier - Increasing this on its own its not a big problem but combining it with a Crit chance that is too high will push casters to one type
Better DC - While there are damage spells that don't have saves, most of the high damage spells have either a Fortitude or Reflex save involved the better the DC the more likely full damage is applied
Better Spell Power - This improvement is multiplied by and critical multiplier
Spell point efficiency - this is a combination of using the right spell as well as getting the most damage via saves/helpless etc.






We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.

DC/Saves have been doing poorly in my opinion simply because of the CR effect that has inflated saves. My opinion is if Turbine took some time to look at the current maximum possible DC for each of its caster types (Keeping School as well as which save is required) and chart this out. Then a more reasonable solution could be looked at that might possibly change how the CR levels effect the Saves. A DC caster should not be required to have the maximum possible, but a reasonable investment should give them better than a 50/50 chance even at the top level.




Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)



These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.

While I like the direction of each epic level adding +1 Caster level as that is a potential increase of 3 Spell Penetration at level 28 (another +2 when 30 hits) I do have concern how that effects splash builds.

Example:
I have an 8/6/6 Ftr/Mnk/Wiz. Adding as much as 8 levels will have the following effect on my short term buffs such as Haste/Displacement before Extend
36 seconds -> 84 seconds
72 seconds -> 168 seconds

I actually like this as for this character those two buffs will see +96 Seconds added as it does not currently run in the Arcane sphere. My pure Cleric, FvS and Wizard will see +18/+36 seconds added at level 28 since they do run in their respective spheres.

But this does make a splash 8 levels more powerful at epic levels, again while I personally like this for my character it makes me wonder if that would be too powerful and maybe putting a cap so that the extra caster levels cannot exceed the number of levels actually taken might prevent this from becoming to strong an option.

If the buffs are not convincing enough, think of a spell like Magic Missile which caps out at 5 Missiles at Caster Level 9. This would allow a single level of Wizard/Sorcerer to give a person a maxed out spell at level 28. And since Colors/Prism/Rainbow/Double Rainbow and nerve venom etc all proc a chance per missile this could make having 1 Level Wizard and 1 Level of Sorcerer and 18 levels of something else a pretty powerful build at level 28.




New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.


I think feats for extra critical damage is the wrong solution myself. I think it would be better to increase the Epic Spell Power feats, example: Take the Type, add 10 spell power. Then add 2% chance per 2 Epic Levels (Currently max out at +4%) and then add 10% critical multiplier per 4 Epic levels.

What this will do is make the Spell Power Feats more desirable for casters and limit that power to specific types.



We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

We have a few raid items that have "free metamagic" for a period of time. I would like to see more items added to the random loot gen with say a single clickie so as not to be more powerful then the Raid versions.

Next Epic attribute damage/level draining - A change needs to occur here. Epic creatures recover way to quickly from this type of damage. Their recovery times should not be that much better than PC's recovery times. DC casting can be fixed significantly if Debuffs can last more than 6 seconds. Next charm type effects suffer the same problem. Either remove the epic recovery or properly adjust it so that Debuffs and Charms actually last longer than the next spell cast.

[CeltEireson]

The increase in caster levels will have a decent difference for dps casters.

Caster levels improve the damage and DC of Energy Burst which is universally twisted, as well as dragon's breath, energy vortex and Divine Wrath. Therefore a universal bonus to caster level will improve epic level dps from their interaction with ED abilities.

It will be a good change to have universal caster level increase not tied to EDs. Shirardi, Magistar, and EA will all get boosted as a result. Even Draconic will be boosted at higher epic levels.

Think of it as an ED boost, not a caster level boost for spells, since if you are hard casting high caster level spells you will OOM anyways.


Energy burst and most epic level abilities if I remember correctly works off character level rather than caster level, at least according to its description so this wouldn't have any impact on them at all.

[voodoogroves]

Some examples for spell power.

I happen to be running a sonic-based bard. I've had time off, so getting back into the swing of things. Hit 20, selected Fatesinger (this character had no previous EDs done).

In Fatesinger there are some bonuses to perform (which adds to sonic SP), a short-term burst SP add w/ Aria (up to 60 sonic) and 10 from the capstone. Let's call it 80. Also in Fatesinger there's a boost to force / positive on Aria (15), a few other positive boosters. Look at Draconic - even less spell power for their chosen element.

Compare to, say, Divine Crusader with all that fire and universal stacking.

Want to make other damages options? Make Harmonic Resonance key also off of spells and not just melee/ranged. Add some amount of Spell Power based on your chosen element to some of the options, or add a smaller amount of universal to the cores. Make each of the Sigils in Magister add a force spell power. Add elemental spell power to the Primal Avatar T3s.

[CeltEireson]

Fire is currently the strongest specialization school for sorcs and other casters due to it being capable of reaching highest dps.
Stacking up empyrian is easy for any build.
Examples:
Sorc- goes fire for imollation for max dps anyways, can and most are in exalted lately so uhm yea
Bard- has a variety of heal spells
Cleric- heal, light what is there to think about?
Fsoul - same as cleric
Druid - ditto same as others with heals
Wizzard- acess to variety of fire spells, can use consumables, but still has acess to fire spells and schoring alone can do the job

Warlock will have the biggest problems with this, but aura can proc empyrian and we will build shiradiwizwarlocks anyways.
I toyed with hellball and heal as rotation to keep it stacked.

Practical game play, any caster that wants to bump his dps, and doesnt go full ****** only dcs will have empyrian twisted and will find a way to use and keep it fully stacked.
If you are not doing that, then yes, you are not playing it correct ;)
Love saying that heh, sorry no offense meant but that is how i played any caster life and i always need to build my characters to be able to solo almost any ee so this might be the view of a ee only full efficiency player and might contradict with view of regular casual players who play in groups and are carried as dc casters.
Empyrian is one of the strongest twists we have out there, not wanting to find a way to keep it fully used is what disturbs me when people say things like you do.

Except that in the not too distant future with epic Shavarath and Shroud etc fire is likely to be fairly useless at end game given that a lot of the content will feature epic devils.

[FestusHood]

yup, any serious dps increase must be linked to the appropriate EDs, in that way devs can regulate how much dps is given to each ED, the same that not all martial EDs give the same number of melee power. If they want can add a little to each epic level, but a number serious should be linked to the cores of the caster EDs.

Even so, I think devs should first look for better mana efficiency in epic. Because we have some very nice damage sources... but we can use them barely because they are too mana intensive. Do not underestimate that. A better spell critical is needed, but before to start thinking in large numbers, let's look at how we can use better the resources at our disposal.

The way melee and ranged power works, everybody does get some by default, regardless of destiny. This makes playing in an off destiny somewhat less crippling. Then there is more available from specific ed's. That makes sense to do that, but i wouldn't want them to put it only in the destinies.

I'm also not really a fan of the metamagics are free in epics idea. You can already reduce their costs quite a bit, but it's somewhat of a tradeoff. I do think they might consider making feats like ruin and hellball have free metamagics on them though.

[CeltEireson]

So what exactly do you think are "the 2" caster destinies?

You don't need to bother answering; that's rhetorical.

I did say I was talking from the point of view of a wizard, and there are really only 3 that are of any real use to them - magister, draconic and shiradi ;)

I've never run a cleric, fvs, druid or bard caster at epic levels so I can't really comment on those. I merely meant that most casters, except possibly shiradi, have trouble fitting in what we need already so giving us another 2 feats to fit in may improve our dps a bit in theory but then at the cost of dropping DCs which in itself might drop our dps due to mobs saving more.

[moo_cow]

This is too much! You mean +8 Spell pen to all builds for free? It will make Wiz/FvS past lives, also Spell Penetration feats useless!


You actually only gain 3 over what we have now. I have every spell pen past life without feats and such and I have a 43 I think. Still not close to what you need, so no it doesn't make them useless. If you actually want spell pen to work you still need a feat and to spend points in enhancements and destiny's.

[moo_cow]

Energy burst and most epic level abilities if I remember correctly works off character level rather than caster level, at least according to its description so this wouldn't have any impact on them at all.

That description changes once you have tier 3 in it. It does work on caster levels when you work out the math.

[moo_cow]

It's a good idea to provide more feat options (especially more ED feat options), but +40% crit chance is way too much.
Have you forgotten items like Epic Ornamented Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Ornamented_Dagger_%28Level_20%29)? I mean why bother with +3% crit chance or any Spell Lore items at all if you get +40%?

It is 40% critical damage, not critical chance. Either way you would still want to max the % for more damage.

[Blackheartox]

Except that in the not too distant future with epic Shavarath and Shroud etc fire is likely to be fairly useless at end game given that a lot of the content will feature epic devils.
Even so, you can use hellball /heal rotation for keeping stacks.
Even when the spells are ineffective, 10% crit chance is imo still a huge boost, you dont need that boost as dc caster vs trash but mainly in boss fights

[Ape_Man]

It is 40% critical damage, not critical chance. Either way you would still want to max the % for more damage.

And a tax of two feat for this is ridiculous when casters will still be way behind good melees.

[AlexIII]

First I want to say thank you for putting this on the radar. As the Epic Mob HP increase to keep up with new items/abilities a casters ability to handle this should not be turning to more spell point potions.



I like that you are thinking along the lines of scaling better the damage in the Epic levels, but I disagree with dealing with only one aspect at a time. The reason is that casters actually increase there DPS contribution though more ways than just damage dice alone.


Better Chance to Critically Hit - Most casters in Epic levels are already exceeding 20%. This is dangerous to go to far in, be careful on any permanent Crit chance
Better Critical multiplier - Increasing this on its own its not a big problem but combining it with a Crit chance that is too high will push casters to one type
Better DC - While there are damage spells that don't have saves, most of the high damage spells have either a Fortitude or Reflex save involved the better the DC the more likely full damage is applied
Better Spell Power - This improvement is multiplied by and critical multiplier
Spell point efficiency - this is a combination of using the right spell as well as getting the most damage via saves/helpless etc.



+1

Also keep in mind that adding damage per spell = less spells needed per mob = less spell points needed per mod. When you have all these interconnected, though you might tweak it over several patches, the fix needs to address all factors




DC/Saves have been doing poorly in my opinion simply because of the CR effect that has inflated saves. My opinion is if Turbine took some time to look at the current maximum possible DC for each of its caster types (Keeping School as well as which save is required) and chart this out. Then a more reasonable solution could be looked at that might possibly change how the CR levels effect the Saves. A DC caster should not be required to have the maximum possible, but a reasonable investment should give them better than a 50/50 chance even at the top level.

While I like the direction of each epic level adding +1 Caster level as that is a potential increase of 3 Spell Penetration at level 28 (another +2 when 30 hits) I do have concern how that effects splash builds.

Example:
I have an 8/6/6 Ftr/Mnk/Wiz. Adding as much as 8 levels will have the following effect on my short term buffs such as Haste/Displacement before Extend
36 seconds -> 84 seconds
72 seconds -> 168 seconds

I actually like this as for this character those two buffs will see +96 Seconds added as it does not currently run in the Arcane sphere. My pure Cleric, FvS and Wizard will see +18/+36 seconds added at level 28 since they do run in their respective spheres.

But this does make a splash 8 levels more powerful at epic levels, again while I personally like this for my character it makes me wonder if that would be too powerful and maybe putting a cap so that the extra caster levels cannot exceed the number of levels actually taken might prevent this from becoming to strong an option.

If the buffs are not convincing enough, think of a spell like Magic Missile which caps out at 5 Missiles at Caster Level 9. This would allow a single level of Wizard/Sorcerer to give a person a maxed out spell at level 28. And since Colors/Prism/Rainbow/Double Rainbow and nerve venom etc all proc a chance per missile this could make having 1 Level Wizard and 1 Level of Sorcerer and 18 levels of something else a pretty powerful build at level 28.



indeed. many of these builds are op, and certainly not under powered, as is.





I think feats for extra critical damage is the wrong solution myself. I think it would be better to increase the Epic Spell Power feats, example: Take the Type, add 10 spell power. Then add 2% chance per 2 Epic Levels (Currently max out at +4%) and then add 10% critical multiplier per 4 Epic levels.

What this will do is make the Spell Power Feats more desirable for casters and limit that power to specific types.



We have a few raid items that have "free metamagic" for a period of time. I would like to see more items added to the random loot gen with say a single clickie so as not to be more powerful then the Raid versions.

Next Epic attribute damage/level draining - A change needs to occur here. Epic creatures recover way to quickly from this type of damage. Their recovery times should not be that much better than PC's recovery times. DC casting can be fixed significantly if Debuffs can last more than 6 seconds. Next charm type effects suffer the same problem. Either remove the epic recovery or properly adjust it so that Debuffs and Charms actually last longer than the next spell cast.

And could we get some vulnerability or a hp reduction on the 200k hp, immune to everything bosses. Not necessarily instadeaths or cripples but if they could each take up to half(quarter? just 5 flat?) their level in negs, hold acted as 50% slow or somthing, and similar.

[Blackheartox]

That description changes once you have tier 3 in it. It does work on caster levels when you work out the math.

Are you confident in that?
I tested numerous times while using it at t3, in draconic as sorc, as sorc in exalted, using fire burst with and without epic red dragon helm, while making sure i dont have anything that changes my spellpower, to me all tests showed that energy burst was specifically tied to spellpower and character level, increasing maximum caster level and caster level via draconic did not affect my bursts damage output at all.

[FestusHood]

Are you confident in that?
I tested numerous times while using it at t3, in draconic as sorc, as sorc in exalted, using fire burst with and without epic red dragon helm, while making sure i dont have anything that changes my spellpower, to me all tests showed that energy burst was specifically tied to spellpower and character level, increasing maximum caster level and caster level via draconic did not affect my bursts damage output at all.

you can do decent damage with it on a character with no caster levels at all.

[moo_cow]

Are you confident in that?
I tested numerous times while using it at t3, in draconic as sorc, as sorc in exalted, using fire burst with and without epic red dragon helm, while making sure i dont have anything that changes my spellpower, to me all tests showed that energy burst was specifically tied to spellpower and character level, increasing maximum caster level and caster level via draconic did not affect my bursts damage output at all.

It is hard to do because of the several bugs surrounding epic destiny's. For instance if I am in draconic and have cl 35 energy burst and I switch to shadowdancer, my cl will still be 35. I believe this bug is similar to keeping spell pen/evocation dc's when you don't have the feats. Also the +3 cl in draconic only applies to dragons breath and not energy burst. So it is really hard to test when you are only removing caster levels, because it will stay the same due to bugs. The only thing you can actually throw on to test this properly should be tod sets for cl. Only because there are so many bugs on the destiny's. And you can't test this with the red dragon helm because that applies to spells 1-9 only, not ed enhancments.

So again, due to all the bugs you have to test this based on your cl vs character level. When I tested this just now it was cl 35 vs character level 28. Took quite a few mobs to test this but ...


I took off crit items and spell power items and ended up with 352 spell power. So....

Cl 35

Energy Burst (CL 35) 352 spell power
(1d15 + 15) x 35 = 805
805 x 4.52
= 3638.6 average damage

Character level 28

Energy Burst (CL 28) 352 spell power
(1d15 + 15) x 28 = 805
805 x 4.52
= 2910.88 average (maximum damage 3796.8)

So right off the bat I can still see my average damage being 3600, no where near the 2900 average of cl28. It is when I put out a hit for 3810 that I was convinced Since the max damage for that spell power and cl is 3796.8.

Edit: made sure that my spell power was consistent at 352. Wasn't wearing anything that can boost it when I cast or get hit.

[dunklezhan]

Why not:

Each epic level increases max caster level of spells, but does not actually add raw caster levels.

Not spell level, max caster level. That way your lower level spells get a boost meaning they aren't dead space on your hotbar, and on top of that being in the 'right' ED let's you take advantage of the capability of the improved max caster levels for higher level spells by actually adding the caster levels.

Someone with maths skills would have to work out if it's really ok, but the brain in my gut says this would work, and wouldn't seem to disproportionately benefit pure classes over multiclasses or vice versa, because you still have to be in the right ED to take full advantage, and if you're not actually primarily a caster build... then you probably don't want to be in one of those destinies so you won't see the benefit.

I would not really want to see the caster EDs 'weakened' in the way suggested in the OP.


On a slightly more general note about epic levelling:

No matter what you select to help epic spellcasting, I would prefer that you took the opportunity to introduce some choices into the epic levelling process. Fine, give us the boring automatic +1 to all skills, +whatever-it-is hitpoints & spellpoints if you must. But when adding new 'freebies' to epic levels, please think about giving us choices. You're always saying that hard choices are good, but epic levels give you practically no choices. And that's awful.

Maybe let us choose PRR vs MRR, max caster levels vs (hmm not sure, DCs? Spell Pen? Epic spells?), and Melee power vs spell power. You expect people to epic reincarnate anyway for past lives, you may as well let them make some build choices on the way for some actual variation, rather than just adding incremental power in the form of past lives.

[Blackheartox]

It is hard to do because of the several bugs surrounding epic destiny's. For instance if I am in draconic and have cl 35 energy burst and I switch to shadowdancer, my cl will still be 35. I believe this bug is similar to keeping spell pen/evocation dc's when you don't have the feats. Also the +3 cl in draconic only applies to dragons breath and not energy burst. So it is really hard to test when you are only removing caster levels, because it will stay the same due to bugs. The only thing you can actually throw on to test this properly should be tod sets for cl. Only because there are so many bugs on the destiny's. And you can't test this with the red dragon helm because that applies to spells 1-9 only, not ed enhancments.

So again, due to all the bugs you have to test this based on your cl vs character level. When I tested this just now it was cl 35 vs character level 28. Took quite a few mobs to test this but ...


I took off crit items and spell power items and ended up with 352 spell power. So....

Cl 35

Energy Burst (CL 35) 352 spell power
(1d15 + 15) x 35 = 805
805 x 4.52
= 3638.6 average damage

Character level 28

Energy Burst (CL 28) 352 spell power
(1d15 + 15) x 28 = 805
805 x 4.52
= 2910.88 average (maximum damage 3796.8)

So right off the bat I can still see my average damage being 3600, no where near the 2900 average of cl28. It is when I put out a hit for 3810 that I was convinced Since the max damage for that spell power and cl is 3796.8.

Edit: made sure that my spell power was consistent at 352. Wasn't wearing anything that can boost it when I cast or get hit.

Hm interesting test.
Tnx for clarifying it as it always confused me since day 1.
No wonder it did, since that bug clearly does show why my tests were different

[Zasral]

A little off topic, but thankfully there are only three fights in the game I get stuck tanking on. To hold aggro from shiradi casters I group with now I have to run in sentanal or twist in the hate from sentanal. Even then it's not easy. Have you given any thought to how much harder it will be when they crit twice as often as they do now? I'm not saying this couldn't be a good thing, just have you thought it through?

[CeltEireson]

Hm interesting test.
Tnx for clarifying it as it always confused me since day 1.
No wonder it did, since that bug clearly does show why my tests were different

God, I wish they would get around to fixing some of these bugs and descriptions. How the hell do you try and balance stuff when the existing stuff either doesn't work as described or doesn't work as intended *sigh*

[moo_cow]

Hm interesting test.
Tnx for clarifying it as it always confused me since day 1.
No wonder it did, since that bug clearly does show why my tests were different

I should probably test this more to be 100% sure, but I am pretty positive on this.

[CeltEireson]

They say character level, but caster level buffs them as well. Equip a Twilight and see, or add points to DI caster level ability. I would show you with mine, but I destroyed it on my TR character about 8 months ago to make room for a festival icy vendor trash stick.

Thanks to both you and Moo Cow for pointing it out - like I said I just wish things would work as described for a change. So the change to caster level would be a boost to dps for energy boost once you hit level 26 at least.

[Angelic-council]

yup, any serious dps increase must be linked to the appropriate EDs, in that way devs can regulate how much dps is given to each ED, the same that not all martial EDs give the same number of melee power. If they want can add a little to each epic level, but a number serious should be linked to the cores of the caster EDs.

Even so, I think devs should first look for better mana efficiency in epic. Because we have some very nice damage sources... but we can use them barely because they are too mana intensive. Do not underestimate that. A better spell critical is needed, but before to start thinking in large numbers, let's look at how we can use better the resources at our disposal.

Yes, but I don't think they should wait after all Iriale. I mean, they already decided to do spell critical multiplier. Stopping it now will only extend their work. They can do something about spell efficientcy when the time comes. They also going to add new spells according to Sev. So, why wait?. It would be easier if they just implement this right away and at least give us a boost ASAP to help fix the situation.

[CeltEireson]

Want to make other damages options? Make Harmonic Resonance key also off of spells and not just melee/ranged. Add some amount of Spell Power based on your chosen element to some of the options, or add a smaller amount of universal to the cores. Make each of the Sigils in Magister add a force spell power. Add elemental spell power to the Primal Avatar T3s.

Main problem with adding additional spell power to sigils is that it means you basically have to stay in once place to get the benefit of it - which is generally not a great idea for a mage given how squishy they are, and of course the highest level sigil has a really long cooldown compared to the others. But I'm all for them adding some universal spell power or force into the tree - even Shiradi gives about +25 universal spell power whereas Magister doesn't give any except for the final tier sigil which can only be used once every 2 minutes and as said youre tied to one spot. Think I'd prefer your suggestion of adding it to the cores if they went down that route.

[CeltEireson]

Oh and one other thought - devs recently mentioned creating a new DOT spell for boss damage - if they make it similar to other epic spells then that's another feat slot to worry about if you want reasonable DPS, so either the spell goes in as a standard level 9 with no level cap or if they want the spell to be an epic feat one either merge these 2 feats or split it between a feat and the caster epic destinies.

[Vargouille]

It's clear this is a contentious issue, so we aren't likely to move quickly on it. The main thrust of these discussions seems to be, "Wait, hold on...", so, OK!


Since you said that the intention is not to change Max Caster Level, and the vast majority of damage spells are capped far below character level; this won't accomplish what you're hoping (increase in damage). i.e. Fireball is still capped at 10d3+30 damage. http://ddowiki.com/page/Sorcerer_/_Wizard_spells Searching for "Maximum" gives 54 hits...

It's flexibility in DC calculation, since there caster levels are not capped.
I should have worded our goals better; the change in where Caster Levels come from is more from years of feedback complaining that being restricted to specific destinies to get those caster levels is highly undesirable. In the past years, relatively few people coming out in defense of the current design, though that's hard to gauge -- rarely do players happy with the status quo speak up unless impending change to that status quo appears, which is why it's important for us to bring up thoughts like this now and then.

Yes, we know how caster levels work. No, we didn't expect going from +5 to +8 to be a massive damage boost for most casters (but it help some casters in some situations, such as 18/2 Savants with Polar Ray or anyone with Spell Penetration). Clearly some players are loathe to lose the +5 levels at level 20, though they probably shouldn't have been there to being with.

The feats were a fairly safe option for the near term; clearly most players don't really want a "safe" option for the near term. We'll need to think and examine and design for longer before we add a great deal of caster damage to all casters. Those would include any of the proposals suggesting adding spell power, spell critical chance, spell critical damage, or maximum caster levels added to Epic Levels or Epic Destinies.


taxing us 2 feats for this sucks, sucks really hard. Please scrap this idea.

Scale more damage, maybe as some spell power added per epic level, would be better than taxing us two feats.

Your proposal (and many others) would be stronger & more powerful. It's not immediately clear it would be better. Taking those feats would be a tradeoff, which is one reason it's a safer change. Clearly you don't want to make the tradeoff, and just want the power, but that's a different different conversation.


The spell critical damage boost is sorely needed for most casters. Feats seem a good place for them. My lvl28 caster is a cleric divine disciple (light) and would definitely take these feats and not feel cheated since he doesn't even try for ee level d.c.s. I see the hard choice for d.c. casters though. I don't think passive spell power or passive crit damage is the answer though. No trade offs. Perhaps put them in the twistable range in Magister and Exalted Angel?


Vargouille, we haven't had a new spell since Ronald Reagan was president, aside from Hellball (horrible despite the awesome name) and Ruin. Now you're thinking about introducing two new feats to reduce their usage even more?

Surely we should think about it. That is our job.


And why is the current spell list so final anyway?
Who said it is? We made a new spell on Friday. Mostly. (And Confusion before that, and many others. Many of those spells are accessed through enhancements, of course.)


This might be a welcome change for some, but it's still really small.
As stated, small was the intent. Clearly some players are inherently against small changes, so we'll probably put this off.


When, if at all, can we expect some new SPELLS?
Update 26. Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast have already been previewed on Lamannia.


So, I went away for a while and came back and saw this thread to see what people had to say. I have to say I'm severely disappointed.

Does anyone but me realize this is a definite nerf? Spell penetration is a CASTER LEVEL check. Removing CASTER LEVELS from epic destinies LOWERS spell penetration. This means, when you hit level 20, you have SIX LESS CASTER LEVELS than you did before this change if you had a maxed destiny, at a point in the game you really need it the most. Only when you reach level 26 do you have the power you had before, and only at level 27-28 do you even remotely see any difference.

Five, not six.

At level 24 you would be at -1, unless you were playing in an "inappropriate" sphere, in which case it's +4.


Naturally, I'm speaking from a strictly 'this class fits much better in this/these destiny(s) than in any other' scenario. This is essentially a wizard nerf (who only really function as a DC caster in Draconic or Magister), who are already getting hit hard when warlocks come out who can almost do what they do with spell DC's and deal a lot more damage with no cost. I love warlocks, but dangit, you're stepping on the wizard's toes to do it.
This set of changes on the whole clearly benefits Wizards more than any other class.


On the whole, you get +2 caster levels total for end game.
+3, not +2.


Varg this is actually fairly interesting. But a question. Is this going to be adding 40 spell power or will it actually be 1.4x the damage.
It's spell critical damage, which only applies when you critically hit with a spell. There are no proposed Spell Power changes (from us). I'm not sure I'm understanding or answering the question you are trying to ask.



Also adding caster levels will only work on spell pen, energy burst, and dragons breath. I think increasing damage on energy burst and dragons breath is a bad idea considering they crit for 20 K all the time.


Regarding the complaints about caster levels on epic levels only .... Give us the regular 5 in the cores and add +3 to the final core perhaps?
No. The main goal of that change was to separate Destinies from Caster Levels. Clearly that is not fully desired by all players (and as some have pointed out has some possibly negative consequences to build variety), so we'll have to slow down and think about it some more.



Spending two feats to get a 30% increase in DPS is deeply underwhelming. One feat, "Improved Crit: Weapon Type" on a swashbuckler gives a 15% increase to crit chance, which at end game is around a 15% chance to do 4x damage (deadly, seeker etc, base damage of 100 usually translates to 400+ crits), usually a lot more. Or at least a 30% DPS boost (0.3*4 + 0.7) / (0.15*4 + 0.85) = 1.9/1.45 = 1.31. One feat.
Improved Critical is clearly the most overpowered feat in DDO. There is roughly 0.0% chance that we will be trying to make all feats as powerful as Improved Critical.


Also, have you considered adding spell critical damage increases to future gear?
Yes.


If your not changing max caster levels then this change will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for current caster dps. I cant even believe the community needs to point that out to you.
We understand how it works. My apologies for not explaining that the entire point of each change wasn't to just increase damage for all casters. None of the changes were intended to do that.

(There are of course some situations, mostly where casters were outside their sphere, where this does increase DPS, but let's not quibble over facts.)


Two +20% Feats seems WAY TOO STRONG. My undergeared non pure bard easily hits +30% crit chance for the double damage (no bonuses to damage). So I would gain 40% more damage 30% of the time. Why not blend these into the Spell Power Feats? Add Crit chance and crit damage to the Spell Power boost (and make the boost 30 instead of 20).
I'm confused. If as proposed is too strong, how does adding the same power into existing feats, and increasing the numbers make them appropriate? Or are we talking about both feats and Action Boosts?


as a general concept, this is the way it should have always been. Way back before Epic Destinies were introduced, devs then claimed they would be generic...then implemented them as tightly linked only to specific classes. The caster level thing was part of it. The selection of abilities you can increase is another part. Are you going to let all destinies choose all 6 abilities to increase in their right-hand column? If not, this is a half-way measure

Overall, caster damage is a systemic problem that can't be fixed with the suggestions proposed thus far.
Both correct. As stated, the proposal in the first post wasn't intended as a final solution. It was intended to make DDO a better game than it is right now, ideally with the resources we have to devote in the near future, without harming future goals & changes.

This idea was something of an experiment, that I pushed to try - attempting smaller but definitely-helpful changes. From the response it sounds like DDO should currently avoid such a model, so we'll probably end pulling back on this and waiting until we find more time to devote.

That said, I went cowboy and put this out on a weekend, which I'm not really supposed to do - in the hopes we'd have some good feedback by the time the rest of the team is on Monday. In that respect, the experiment succeeded. We probably shouldn't try to get anything in Soon(tm).

[voodoogroves]

I'm fine with changing the CL to epic levels and not ED levels - really I am - but I think your mis-step was saying that in conjunction w/ "as an increase in caster DPS", thus conjoining the topics and confusing stuff. Then you end up with people looking at maximize BB damage on cleric 11s more and more and penalyzing full casters.

To have good caster DPS, you need decent enough DCs for mobs to fail saves and damage that scales (and continues to do so).

Some additional thoughts to the ones I posted above
- Put more spell power in late-level caster trees.
- Scale metamagics and have their benefit increase at 20, 25 and 30 (for example) - based on the CL of the spell. This helps you not have to increase spell-cap willy-nilly.
- Make a few EDs spell-power specific, a few DC-happy and some a mix.
- Increase the crit % on mental toughness

[Ape_Man]

Your proposal (and many others) would be stronger & more powerful. It's not immediately clear it would be better. Taking those feats would be a tradeoff, which is one reason it's a safer change. Clearly you don't want to make the tradeoff, and just want the power, but that's a different different conversation.

You're damned right I don't want make a trade off. It is insanely stupid that casters should have to give up ANYTHING to gain a pittance more damage considering the god-mode you made barbs, pallies, bards, and mechanics.

Please tell me what they traded off for their insane power increases?

[Gralhota]

You're damned right I don't want make a trade off. It is insanely stupid that casters should have to give up ANYTHING to gain a pittance more damage considering the god-mode you made barbs, pallies, and mechanics.

Please tell me what they traded off for their insane power increases?


Waiting for reply.

[Holymunchkin]

Your proposal (and many others) would be stronger & more powerful. It's not immediately clear it would be better. Taking those feats would be a tradeoff, which is one reason it's a safer change. Clearly you don't want to make the tradeoff, and just want the power, but that's a different different conversation.

Let's start that conversation.
Caster damage should scale better into epics. (Point of agreement and entry.)

For which casters?
DC casters will give up at least a DC for damage and shiradi will get a damage increase for 50 hp / and(or) 1% crit chance and 200 sp.

The heights to which a melee can reach (sustainable 4.2k damage) are 2-3X that of a nuking DC caster from our bruntsmash results. In a raid group 3 wizards do as much damage as 1 paladin. Paladins don't use SP.

Shiradi is a different story---those feats would give them some oomf. Shiradis don't need that buff though. Given how little gear you need for decent damage the build is alright. DC casters however take a massive gear investment (as well as past-life) and extremely mediocre damage. IF we want to give them more damage THEN the 2 feats you speak of are not a big change, relatively. It would be about a 20% increase in damage.

Anyway those are my thoughts, and my reccomendations are earlier.

[Drwaz99]

Waiting for reply.

I too would like to see that question answered.

[Blackheartox]

You're damned right I don't want make a trade off. It is insanely stupid that casters should have to give up ANYTHING to gain a pittance more damage considering the god-mode you made barbs, pallies, and mechanics.

Please tell me what they traded off for their insane power increases?


Add bards to that list and il agree with your question

[Ape_Man]

Add bards to that list and il agree with your question

Added, I just forgot about bards :)

I'm just baffed how we have a game where a guy with a friggin crossbow does more damage than casters, it's makes as much sense as a wookie on Endor.

[AlexIII]

We want a well designed fix that addresses the many interconnected problems with epic casters. If we need to wait for it, so be it. Better for the effort to go into getting it right than a band-aid with the aforementioned negative effects.

We do appreciate this being opened, and hope to see a bigger, more complete fix in the near future.

[voodoogroves]

Added, I just forgot about bards :)

I'm just baffed how we have a game where a guy with a friggin crossbow does more damage than casters, it's makes as much sense as a wookie on Endor.

It isn't just mechanics, and I say this as a repeater but, they need an adjustment ... Maybe av base damage die decrease ... Just finished my third ranger life as a Harper T5 with no rogue levels and just mowed stuff down. Great xbows may need a ROF reduction.

My only bard right now is a caster, and while it's hella fun I expect (as the thread says) damage in epic is not gonna scale.

[Robai]

Its +3 spell pen over what people currently have which is not exactly game breaking as most casters max caster levels are already capped.. Also those below level 25 will have less than they currently do unless they are in an off destiny.
This
Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level
is bad, because:

This is +3 spell pen for lvl 28, but it's also -5 spell pen for lvl 20
+8 spell pen to non caster EDs at lvl 28



Also when Epic Shavarath is introduce caster will need the extra spell pen against the epic Devils.
Which is a good thing!



You still need to be in a proper destiny. Having more caster levels does nothing to help caster dps in Legendary Dreadnaught.
Yes, that's how it should be!


Its not crit chance its crit damage similar to how Overwhelming critical improves crit damage
Thanks, I stand corrected (sometimes reading is hard, lol).
Now I think that Epic Spell Critical Damage feats aren't bad.
I think that at least one of them should be as ED feat.

[Theolin]

What I would like to see is to go back through the spells and change

For the ones that have max damage dice (1 blast/shot)
For example, Fire ball, cone of cold, electric loop, burning hands, lightning bolt, ball lightning, freezing sphere, searing light, nimbus light ... etc
not to make them all unlimited but think about adding 3-10 max damage dice to them by class level

For missile type spells (multi hits)
Magic Missile, force missile, chain lightning, frost lance, schorching ray, wail of banshee ... etc
let these have 1-4 more missiles, rays or targets to affect by class level


For damage over time spells (dots)
elder's surge, melphs acid, niac's biting, divine punishment .. etc
Add duration mabye 2-6 more tics of the spell by class level

For those that fall into mulitple of the above (kiting spells)
Fire wall, ice storm, cloud spells, blade barrier ... etc
Add some damage dice by class level & some duration by class level (about 1/2 for each from what would be done if it were just one)

I realize that this will take much longer and I think it will be the better route to go.

[LevelJ]

Hmm...I never thought about it much (I probably should've, since my main toon is a DC caster), but I suppose the idea of moving Spell Penetration makes sense. It will keep certain really powerful ED abilities in check for the earlier epic levels, while also giving more much more benefit to DC casters. Not a solution fully, yes, but a great start. My only real reluctance to this is the idea of having to deal with drow at low levels with less spell penetration. But my elven caster has extra Spell Pen over others, so it won't be too much of an issue. Also, it gives my planned Warlock a bit extra needed Spell Pen at endgame.

Looking at the feats, I really don't see any downsides to this idea. My Sorc could definitely make use of this, and possibly my Palemaster, depending on how you offer this feat. It would fit very well in the ED feat list, although it would be nice if it wasn't confined to the arcane sphere.


-Jayron

[Ziindarax]

Vargouille - Since you're considering factoring these caster changes into epic levels, why not allow players to take proper class levels into Epic instead of just doing "Commoner" levels, which many players seem to hate anyways?

Wizard could take Epic Wizard Levels, which would give them the option to grab DC's, spell power, etc. And perhaps make these feat offerings separate from Destiny feats (so at appropriate levels, you'd have the Epic Class feat, and the Destiny feat). This would also open the door to more interesting build varieties, so it'd be a win/win/win! :)



It's clear this is a contentious issue, so we aren't likely to move quickly on it. The main thrust of these discussions seems to be, "Wait, hold on...", so, OK!


I should have worded our goals better; the change in where Caster Levels come from is more from years of feedback complaining that being restricted to specific destinies to get those caster levels is highly undesirable. In the past years, relatively few people coming out in defense of the current design, though that's hard to gauge -- rarely do players happy with the status quo speak up unless impending change to that status quo appears, which is why it's important for us to bring up thoughts like this now and then.

Yes, we know how caster levels work. No, we didn't expect going from +5 to +8 to be a massive damage boost for most casters (but it help some casters in some situations, such as 18/2 Savants with Polar Ray or anyone with Spell Penetration). Clearly some players are loathe to lose the +5 levels at level 20, though they probably shouldn't have been there to being with.

The feats were a fairly safe option for the near term; clearly most players don't really want a "safe" option for the near term. We'll need to think and examine and design for longer before we add a great deal of caster damage to all casters. Those would include any of the proposals suggesting adding spell power, spell critical chance, spell critical damage, or maximum caster levels added to Epic Levels or Epic Destinies.



Your proposal (and many others) would be stronger & more powerful. It's not immediately clear it would be better. Taking those feats would be a tradeoff, which is one reason it's a safer change. Clearly you don't want to make the tradeoff, and just want the power, but that's a different different conversation.





Surely we should think about it. That is our job.


Who said it is? We made a new spell on Friday. Mostly. (And Confusion before that, and many others. Many of those spells are accessed through enhancements, of course.)


As stated, small was the intent. Clearly some players are inherently against small changes, so we'll probably put this off.


Update 26. Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast have already been previewed on Lamannia.



Five, not six.

At level 24 you would be at -1, unless you were playing in an "inappropriate" sphere, in which case it's +4.


This set of changes on the whole clearly benefits Wizards more than any other class.


+3, not +2.


It's spell critical damage, which only applies when you critically hit with a spell. There are no proposed Spell Power changes (from us). I'm not sure I'm understanding or answering the question you are trying to ask.





No. The main goal of that change was to separate Destinies from Caster Levels. Clearly that is not fully desired by all players (and as some have pointed out has some possibly negative consequences to build variety), so we'll have to slow down and think about it some more.



Improved Critical is clearly the most overpowered feat in DDO. There is roughly 0.0% chance that we will be trying to make all feats as powerful as Improved Critical.


Yes.


We understand how it works. My apologies for not explaining that the entire point of each change wasn't to just increase damage for all casters. None of the changes were intended to do that.

(There are of course some situations, mostly where casters were outside their sphere, where this does increase DPS, but let's not quibble over facts.)


I'm confused. If as proposed is too strong, how does adding the same power into existing feats, and increasing the numbers make them appropriate? Or are we talking about both feats and Action Boosts?



Both correct. As stated, the proposal in the first post wasn't intended as a final solution. It was intended to make DDO a better game than it is right now, ideally with the resources we have to devote in the near future, without harming future goals & changes.

This idea was something of an experiment, that I pushed to try - attempting smaller but definitely-helpful changes. From the response it sounds like DDO should currently avoid such a model, so we'll probably end pulling back on this and waiting until we find more time to devote.

That said, I went cowboy and put this out on a weekend, which I'm not really supposed to do - in the hopes we'd have some good feedback by the time the rest of the team is on Monday. In that respect, the experiment succeeded. We probably shouldn't try to get anything in Soon(tm).

[SirValentine]

Vargouille - Since you're considering factoring these caster changes into epic levels, why not allow players to take proper class levels into Epic instead of just doing "Commoner" levels, which many players seem to hate anyways?

Wizard could take Epic Wizard Levels...


If they had proposed an Epic class level system versus the Epic Destiny system we got, way back when, I'd say the class levels would be the clear winner.

But now? After years of the Epic Destiny system, including it's add-ons like Fate Points, Epic Reincarnation, etc.? I think it might be too late to switch.

[Blackheartox]

If they had proposed an Epic class level system versus the Epic Destiny system we got, way back when, I'd say the class levels would be the clear winner.

But now? After years of the Epic Destiny system, including it's add-ons like Fate Points, Epic Reincarnation, etc.? I think it might be too late to switch.

It is never to late to do things right.
Just sayin

[-D_Rock-]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.


Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

As a veteran player I like these proposals. A lot of classes have been recently upgraded and casters have been left behind by a lot. As a veteran PNP player as well, I also remember all the Dev comments about how 'we want to stay true to pnp as much as possible'. Although i do agree with the improvements suggested so far, I also am reminded of all the spell problems in general.

Years ago there were many spell changes made to simply make other classes feel important. one example is True Seeing. I believe that removing the changes made to said spells would also greatly improve casters. You say you try to stay as true to pnp as possible, true seeing is just that for a reason. That is just the tip of the ice berg so to speak. Many other spells have been changed.

Displacement: *not a friendly buff anymore but only you*.
True Seeing: This can no longer detect anything in epic. so, pretty pointless to have it on your spell list as all mobs will dispel it for the anti dispacement effect.
Freedom of Movement: was always just that. 'anything' that impeded movement, would not be so. but not normal spider webs anymore.
Nuetralize Poison: again, its for a reason. you are going into a heavily poisonous area known for spiders scorps or what have you. we arent all lucky enough to have divines in our group.
Anger of the Noonday sun: The targets of your fire spells suffer a 2% fortification penalty, and a -5 penalty to fire resistance. VERY weak for a level 9 spell.

the list can go on and on. but the point is, that nerfs need to be removed. they are no longer valid. we shouldnt restrict ourselves to 'only running with rogues' because our true seeing can not discover that hidden door.

My final note is because i love playing casters and yet they are also limited in choices of spells. The one and only example that strikes at me the most is the cleric. once i get my level 9 spells i should be happy? but i only get to choose from 5 spells? really??? at least i got to choose from 8 for level 8 spells... which i still felt lacking.

The point is that ddo could use a lot more spells. or in pnp an acid based sorc could take a feat that would allow him to use any elemental typed spell, and change its elemental type. so all those acid sorcs out there would have a lot more to play with. Clerics are so lonely in spells they have to basically load the only spell list.

I would love to see more mass spells. like mass jump. everyone loves jump! its a level one spell so a mass could easily be level 4 or 5. Mass buffs is one thing that frees up some spell slots for others so its always coveted. Mass nuetralize poison for lvl 8? the list can go on and on.

This is all my opinion. You may agree with, you may disagree with it but it is mine. And i will not waver from it what so ever. i only hope the devs see my points. thank you :)

[Silverleafeon]

It's clear this is a contentious issue, so we aren't likely to move quickly on it. The main thrust of these discussions seems to be, "Wait, hold on...", so, OK!

I liked the changed to Caster Levels as Epic Levels, I believe I have debated both sides of this issue before.

You have one of two choices:

Make Epic Levels grant Caster levels.


Increase Epic Destiny Levels to 10 (I believe I have offered solutions in the past exactly how to do this.




The latter avoids some of the problems of the former and easily be done with a minimal of coding.



I should have worded our goals better; the change in where Caster Levels come from is more from years of feedback complaining that being restricted to specific destinies to get those caster levels is highly undesirable. In the past years, relatively few people coming out in defense of the current design, though that's hard to gauge -- rarely do players happy with the status quo speak up unless impending change to that status quo appears, which is why it's important for us to bring up thoughts like this now and then.

I am glad you brought it up, we love to talk to the gods. May the volcanoes shake and tremble from our offerings.



Yes, we know how caster levels work. No, we didn't expect going from +5 to +8 to be a massive damage boost for most casters (but it help some casters in some situations, such as 18/2 Savants with Polar Ray or anyone with Spell Penetration). Clearly some players are loathe to lose the +5 levels at level 20, though they probably shouldn't have been there to being with. Of course you do, and we know it.

Fawn barely stays at level 20 for long, so I don't see that being a problem.

The whole, oh, I can take 1 level of Sorcerer and max shirdai procures is doable anyway (with proper equipment) but it is an issue.

The oh, every caster will be in Exalted Angel comes back to the whole design flaw of "fvs need cha not wis bonuses" which Fawn and others have brought up. The hidden +2 was removed and divines got a revealed bonus, so it was not a nerf for them.




The feats were a fairly safe option for the near term; clearly most players don't really want a "safe" option for the near term. We'll need to think and examine and design for longer before we add a great deal of caster damage to all casters. Those would include any of the proposals suggesting adding spell power, spell critical chance, spell critical damage, or maximum caster levels added to Epic Levels or Epic Destinies.

If the Feats were added as Epic Destiny Feats and slightly improved (per my counter suggestions) I would have been pleased.

Please consider my last proposal of:

Change to Epic Destiny Feats, add +5 for a total of +25, and grant an Epic Destiny Feat at 29 and 30.

We do need more Epic Destiny Feat choices for casters, its pretty lame up there; and Sev did want to make the last two level more of a big bang. There fore I don't feel unreasonable about this.



As stated, small was the intent. Clearly some players are inherently against small changes, so we'll probably put this off.


Sad face. I just wanted some battering before I felt happy. I am very used to the Past Designers needing to be battered with to get anywhere at all. Perhaps with the new Sev reign I should be less barterful?



At level 24 you would be at -1, unless you were playing in an "inappropriate" sphere, in which case it's +4.

At level 24, I would be doing the Spies, Von, Wiz King chain and not worried about spell pen...



This set of changes on the whole clearly benefits Wizards more than any other class.


I guess so, they get all the oranges anyway...




It's spell critical damage, which only applies when you critically hit with a spell. There are no proposed Spell Power changes (from us). I'm not sure I'm understanding or answering the question you are trying to ask.


I understand, but its important for us to speak up, and since you invited opinions, I am going to say, Epic Power is not fair and its the simple way to scale, either by spell crit damage, universal spell power, spell crit chances, or other method.

I am sad that you are pulling away from this conversation.
But I am glad that you started it.

Goes and lays some fruit on the volcano rocks, hoping for more signs from above...



No. The main goal of that change was to separate Destinies from Caster Levels. Clearly that is not fully desired by all players (and as some have pointed out has some possibly negative consequences to build variety), so we'll have to slow down and think about it some more.


Two choices, two choices, and I have usually favored the second, but I will accept either one.
Show me a third choice and I will listen.

How long have I said, Epic Destinies should increase to 10, way long time ago?
Easy to do, add more ED points to spend, leave innates alone, have the last half only activate at level 28+, etc...easy to do, tons more xp to earn, ect..



Improved Critical is clearly the most overpowered feat in DDO. There is roughly 0.0% chance that we will be trying to make all feats as powerful as Improved Critical.


Indeed 2X all and the lack of using fractions with weapon crit system.
Very powerful.

I am quite sure my proposals were no where near that.
I did show math concerning the removal of DCs very much affected/reduced proposal if they were feats instead of epic destiny feats.

Compare +1 DC vs +30 spellpower, which is better anyway?
Choices are good.



Yes.


Good to hear a yes, can I make up a question to go with it?



We understand how it works. My apologies for not explaining that the entire point of each change wasn't to just increase damage for all casters. None of the changes were intended to do that.


I heard you good enough.

You did open the door for communication, and I do feel that you need to listen to our concerns and take notes.

I do want to see Sev and Steel post here, thank you.
I know all of you will read this thread, however others need the reassurance of knowing they are heard.
Thank you.
Even a "read by a Dev" is enough.



Both correct. As stated, the proposal in the first post wasn't intended as a final solution. It was intended to make DDO a better game than it is right now, ideally with the resources we have to devote in the near future, without harming future goals & changes.

And I counter proposed without demanding too much.
Switch to Epic Destiny Feats and slightly increase power, consider adding two more epic feat destiny grants at 29 and 30.
Answer?



This idea was something of an experiment, that I pushed to try - attempting smaller but definitely-helpful changes. From the response it sounds like DDO should currently avoid such a model, so we'll probably end pulling back on this and waiting until we find more time to devote.

That is not correct and I totally disagree with you on thus point.
Totally.

We have many things to request on this vast subject.
That does not mean a few at a time would not be welcome.



That said, I went cowboy and put this out on a weekend, which I'm not really supposed to do - in the hopes we'd have some good feedback by the time the rest of the team is on Monday. In that respect, the experiment succeeded. We probably shouldn't try to get anything in Soon(tm).


I disagree, the staff should greatly benefit from feedback here.
And I would be saddened if they don't...

[kain741]

I think the two suggestions should be separated and looked at separately. From reading everyone's rants, they seem to be tying the caster level increase exchange for ED caster levels to the proposed feats possibilities. The only situation that the switch from EDs to epic levels would hurt anyone would be in the very brief time someone is between 20 and 24. Sure, there are some classes that this helps more and multi-classes especially...but this will not hurt anyone and is better scale-able with cap increase.
As far as the DPS increase from additional feats, this is where the Lam testing is crucial. If the 20% crit damage is enough to make it a hard decision then this seems like a good idea. Certainly everyone would like to see 200% or 500% but that doesn't make it a good idea. If during testing 20% isn't enough to make it worthwhile then 30% can be tried and so on. Either way, I think we can clearly separate these two proposals (unless I misread the feeler) and look at them individually. If we do this, I can't see any good argument to make the first change and haggle over the percentage in the second.

[Failedlegend]

As stated, small was the intent. Clearly some players are inherently against small changes, so we'll probably put this off.


Please don't put it off I was SO excited when I saw the OP, I've been begging for this exact change (as many others have I'm sure) and as to not getting +5 at Lvl 20 that's always rubbed me the wrong way.

Frankly I think that ED levels should only increase with Epic level (once increased to 30 every other Epic level allows your ED to jump a level, assuming it's already leveled or something like that)

[Bobby88888]

Separating the Caster Levels from EDs is long overdue and should be done, they should never have been put together imo. It also makes it not as much of a pain for casters leveling off EDs and gives it a more smooth progression rather than a large bump at level 20 with no further progression.

As for the feats, they are good in the sense that you are looking at adding more choices and customisation, but they are also bad because they would be somewhat required feats and there isn't really too much room to move on epic feats. If you can implement it so they come as options that cost you, but not too much then I think that would be good.

This is a big thing and would probably take time to get it right, I would rather see it all happen at once, along with a ED rework since it largely effects EDs rather than happen a little bit at a time due to balance issues of that and if the direction changes along the line. But doing it in small parts is also okay if those parts are carefully considered.


One option is to add Epic class feats, these could be instead of or as well as the current Epic feats. At levels X/Y/Z etc you can pick a class feat from (1) your primary class, (2) a class you have more than X levels in. This feat list is based on the class. So casters have DCs/spellpen/spell crit damage/spell crit chance/epic spells/etc. Make each classes feat list build on their main heroic abilities and related things or maybe even new directions for them to head. Take the current epic feats and adjust numbers if needed and put them in these, general ones in all of them and specific ones in the class or classes feat list. This lets you scales classes individually through epics which is where most class balance issues are, not in heroics, capstone adjustment and feat adjustment becomes most of the balancing work needed.

[Kaytis]

Stated goal:



In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.


Everyone: yea, that makes sense. Casters are doing less relative DPS than classes that don't have to shrine, and don't get murdered if they get to close to a mob. We don't mind the getting murdered bit: we are kind of use to it, but we should be able to impress the lowly melee'ers around us with red bar destroying spells. Sounds like a good idea!

Then:



Your proposal (and many others) would be stronger & more powerful. It's not immediately clear it would be better. Taking those feats would be a tradeoff, which is one reason it's a safer change. Clearly you don't want to make the tradeoff, and just want the power, but that's a different different conversation.

Wait. What? We are supposed to achieve the stated goal without becoming stronger & more powerful? How does that work?

I want to genuinely thank you for floating this to the community at large and not relying on the dubious voices of the PC. This is a critically important topic and you need to do right by all casters, not just a few archetypes. I think you have taken the gist of the feedback which is basically "whoa nellie". Take some time to think about this, and also ponder the first stated goal -how can we get more damage for casters at epic level. You may need to accept that to do so, you will have to make them better, stronger & more powerful, and not impose brutal tradeoffs (feats? really?) that will just end up gimping them in other ways.

I actually like the idea of just buffing mental toughness, and adding a splash of crit multiplier to them. But I am certainly open to other creative solutions that don't involve a "trade this for that" scenario -otherwise it's not a boost at all is it?

[HastyPudding]

This set of changes on the whole clearly benefits Wizards more than any other class.

I think the exact opposite. You're basically nerfing wizard's early epic levels by removing their desperately-needed spell penetration in MOTU-releated content. Oh sure, they'll get a tiny buff later on, but at a point in the game where they really don't need it, anymore. This change would benefit:

- Druids will see a small buff, because primal avatar is not a strong caster destiny. They can now run in exalted angel, draconic, or divine crusader for more benefits than they would ever get in primal avatar.

- Spellsinger bards will take a slight early-epic-level nerf due to the loss of spell penetration from caster levels, but they'll gain more from being able to freely go in exalted angel, which has so much more synergy and casting capabilities for bards than anything in the arcane sphere (fatesinger is okay, but you lose DC bonuses compared to exalted angel).

- Sorcerers that are fire-based will be able to go into divine crusader without hesitation, now. Some also use primal avatar for various reasons.

- Clerics and FVS will be largely unaffected by this until the later epic levels. They usually run in divine crusader or exalted angel, anyway, this only opens up the 'option' for draconic.

- Any multiclassed caster build will greatly benefit from this 'buff'.

- Shiradi casters will gain a significant buff with this (and the critical damage feats), and they certainly don't need it. You say the +5 spell penetration should never have been allowed in the early epic levels, I say that double rainbow should never have been allowed to proc on spells. Now that you want to change how epic destiny caster levels work because you feel they were unjustified long ago, you do nothing to change the, ah, shall we say 'features' you let slip that were never intended, such as ranged classes in fury of the wild or legendary dreadnaught, to name a couple.

My problem is that, with wizards (and to a lesser extent arcanotech artificers), have no synergy with other destinies other than draconic and magister. The other destinies, such as divine crusader, exalted angel, or primal avatar, have no synergy with intelligence-based spellcasting. Sorcerers, clerics, FVS, spellsinger bards, druids, and warlocks all have synergy with the divine sphere destinies. Wizards don't, which is why I said they only really work at optimal levels in draconic or magister. This supposed buff doesn't help wizards as much as you think it does.


You're damned right I don't want make a trade off. It is insanely stupid that casters should have to give up ANYTHING to gain a pittance more damage considering the god-mode you made barbs, pallies, bards, and mechanics.

Please tell me what they traded off for their insane power increases?

Answer his question, please.


What would fix this entire problem is making abilities gained in the epic destinies -- like avenging light, energy burst, tsunami, and celestial bombardment -- be based off of your highest spellcasting stat (wisdom, intelligence, or charisma). This would completely obliterate the problem. I then wouldn't mind losing the extra spell penetration at lower epic levels.

[maddong]

I would do a hybrid on the caster level thing (yes it is inflation but since you won't nerf the "overperforming" things ie bard/paladin/barbarian casters will need a little inflation at epic levels only):
EDs add up to +5 epic caster levels.
Epic levels add up to +8 epic caster levels (these do not stack with other epic caster level bonuses such as EDs so you get whichever bonus is higher).

That way we get the +3 spell penetration that we will need for epic devils content, and you have more destiny options at cap--but you aren't nerfing us in MOTU.


The suggestion I like the best in regards to caster damage was the 5% critical damage per epic level (40% at level 28, the same as the 2 proposed feats), but I think this will just promote everyone playing Shiradi non DC casters.


To buff non Shiradi's without buffing Shiradi's you probably have two options:
1. Increase max caster levels on spells (since this typically increases dice on things like delayed blast fireball but does not increase your number of magic missiles or scorching rays).

2. Have each epic level decrease the mana that your pure damage non healing spells cost (ie polar ray, niac's, divine punishment, blade barrier, and meteor swarm; but not sunburst, cure critical, SLAs, or mass hold). If every epic level decreased the cost of damage spells by 7% then a 70 mana meteor swarm (after metamagics) would cost only 21 mana at level 30.

[MonadRebelion]

Another reason to kill/change this idea is that adding epic levels to caster levels is another nail in the coffin of clerical/fvs healing. When the level cap goes to 30 it will give every multiclass split with ranger, paladin, etc. spells 10 levels to their cure spells. This promotes the already crazy self healing builds out there. If you feel like saying,"Hey, but clerics have a tree that removes the level cap from cures, so they'll be way better at healing than everyone else." turn to the person next to you and ask them to drive you to the hospital so you can get the nail removed from your head. Clerics don't need to cast level 30 cure light wounds spells, especially the clerics in that tree. As it stands clerics are uselessly over-devoted to healing given the level of self healing already out there.

[azrael4h]

As I have a Sorcerer, and a caster Druid right now, and a Wizard of some sort planned in the near/far future, I'll weigh in here.

1: Spell levels. tying epic levels to caster levels is fine, but it won't be of much benefit to dps issues if it doesn't increase the maximum caster level as well. Most dps spells are level limited, and as such, won't be affected at all by this change. In fact, I believe the main thing you will see is long buffs and better spell penetration. 99% of content buffs last long enough (or are dispelled anyway, so don't matter) at 20 minutes to reach another shrine. The few areas I can think of that they don't, are lower level heroic stuff that most won't run very often, save maybe farming for GS blank mats out of the Vale. Spell pen is nice for DC casters, but is also situational; not every quest has a requirement. So in the end, maybe half (or less) of the time, you're only getting longer buffs that last plenty of time anyway.

I wouldn't increase it by +1 MCL per epic level though, maybe 1 out of 2 or even 1 out of 3. That adds up to +4(5 when cap increases to 30) MCL, or +2(3) MCL for the latter.

2: As others pointed out, adding two more must-have epic feats increases the feat tax. My Druid and Sorcerer have no room for extra feats as it is. I couldn't even take both Hellball and Ruin on my Druid, just one. I'm not sure what I would kill to take the two Epic Spell Crit feats, but they would be must-have for a dps caster.

3: Which brings us to the final point. Even with a maxed out Efficient Maximize and Efficient Heighten, and the augment that reduces Maximize Spell costs by 6sp (IIRC), my Druid sees her sp pool drain quickly in even easier content. And I'm not running Empower save for boss fights when I'm dumping. We need additional options to reduce metamagic costs, and NOT even more feats. Only Wizards and Artificers aren't feat taxed to be casters. I would suggest this added into the caster-focused EDs, and more gear.

[HatsuharuZ]

I think that the people who dislike separating EDs and caster levels either dislike the possibility of buffing shiradi builds (By lessening the number of class levels needed to get extra damage from force spells) or they think that people who want to take a certain role need to take a certain ED.

For me, the potential buffs to Shiradi builds are irrelevant in the face of what putting caster levels into epic levels will do for build diversity in epic levels.

So here is a suggestion: Put +1 caster level in each epic level, and make it so that the +CLs from EDs and epic levels do not stack. That would satisfy a lot of people who don't want to lose their current power.

On the other hand, you could just ignore the people who want to be level 25 CL casters at level 20, and just go ahead and remove CLs from EDs. That way, people will do more 18-20 content, which iirc doesn't have as many high SR enemies, with the exception of the Shavarath pack.

[MonadRebelion]

For me, the potential buffs to Shiradi builds are irrelevant in the face of what putting caster levels into epic levels will do for build diversity in epic levels.

Can you explain some of the new builds this would open up? For the most part it seems to me that certain existing build concepts get boosts and that's it.

[Blackheartox]

I think that the people who dislike separating EDs and caster levels either dislike the possibility of buffing shiradi builds (By lessening the number of class levels needed to get extra damage from force spells) or they think that people who want to take a certain role need to take a certain ED.

For me, the potential buffs to Shiradi builds are irrelevant in the face of what putting caster levels into epic levels will do for build diversity in epic levels.

So here is a suggestion: Put +1 caster level in each epic level, and make it so that the +CLs from EDs and epic levels do not stack. That would satisfy a lot of people who don't want to lose their current power.

On the other hand, you could just ignore the people who want to be level 25 CL casters at level 20, and just go ahead and remove CLs from EDs. That way, people will do more 18-20 content, which iirc doesn't have as many high SR enemies, with the exception of the Shavarath pack.

Or you could put spell critical damage into cores of destenies that are meant for dc casters and leave it as it is with caster level/epic level.
That way shiradi get a buff via caster levels, and we dc casers get a buff via critical spell damage.

I dont see 1 single thing bad in this proposal.
Both get buffed, and dc casters wont need to be heavily taxed with another 2 feats that they cant afford anyways.


The current proposal gives to much power to shiradi and is a bad way to solve this issue, my proposal at least makes sense for ballancing reasons and not to make warlock shiradis the new paladin/monkcher/barb/whatevers in caster realms.

[HatsuharuZ]

Can you explain some of the new builds this would open up? For the most part it seems to me that certain existing build concepts get boosts and that's it.

Think multiclass casters (not just Shiradi builds). Imagine a 10/10 FvS/Sorc build that specializes in fire damage. 10 CLs in epics is essentially getting 20 with a single-classed caster. The downside is that you're stuck with whatever spells you get from 10 levels of a given caster class.

[Silverleafeon]

I actually like the idea of just buffing mental toughness, and adding a splash of crit multiplier to them. But I am certainly open to other creative solutions that don't involve a "trade this for that" scenario -otherwise it's not a boost at all is it?

+1 I like thus.
Mental Toughness does offer an alternate feat line option already, work with it.
Make that choice worth considering

Say,

Mental Toughness bonuses sp as per, +1% spell crit, +3 spell crit damage

Improved Mental Toughness sp as per, +2% spell crit, +6 spell crit damage

Epic Mental Toughness, sp as per, +3% spell crit, +9 spell crit damage

Improved Epic Mental Toughness, sp as per Epic Mental Toughness, +3% spell crit, +9 spell crit damage

[Silverleafeon]

EDs add up to +5 epic caster levels.
Epic levels add up to +8 epic caster levels (these do not stack with other epic caster level bonuses such as EDs so you get whichever bonus is higher).

Your hybrid idea has some merit, there are probably several hybrid situations that will be considered for this situation.
Personally I prefer to smooth the power curve out instead of having a big jump at level 20, however hybrids will need to be considered.

You are assuming that the caster levels from epic destinies will remain constant.
They are based upon Epic Destiny Levels.
Epic Destiny Levels could more upward to 10 someday.
If this is done, various hybrid plans would need to be considered there as well to prevent full power charging at level 20.


This is why I pressed/thanked that melee power was based on Epic Destiny Innates which are unlikely to change.

[Ape_Man]

Or you could put spell critical damage into cores of destenies that are meant for dc casters and leave it as it is with caster level/epic level.


That'd be fine. The feat tax is what infuriates me.

[Silverleafeon]

Please don't put it off I was SO excited when I saw the OP, I've been begging for this exact change (as many others have I'm sure) and as to not getting +5 at Lvl 20 that's always rubbed me the wrong way.


Poor Failed, I know you saw thus and almost fell over backwards....

[fmalfeas]

+1 I like thus.
Mental Toughness does offer an alternate feat line option already, work with it.
Make that choice worth considering

Say,

Mental Toughness bonuses sp as per, +1% spell crit, +3 spell crit damage

Improved Mental Toughness sp as per, +2% spell crit, +6 spell crit damage

Epic Mental Toughness, sp as per, +3% spell crit, +9 spell crit damage

Improved Epic Mental Toughness, sp as per Epic Mental Toughness, +3% spell crit, +9 spell crit damage

I'll back that completely. It's not an excessive amount (a 'safe' start), it incorporates nicely with casters without hurting them in feats (thus a buff to our boss fighting abilities without even a proxy nerf), and leaves room to add the pure crit-damage feats if you want as well, for people who want to push harder into crit damage by sacrificing something else.

[WNxDaCraw]

Please do not do this to the DC wrecked. I lost friends from DDO when 2 weapon fighting was Destroyed. I lost more when AC was crippled. this DC caster nerf will cost me even more friends. I am going to be forced to go to another game to keep playing with my friends. This just seems like another sad attempt to cripple DC casters.
If the designers can't handle DC casters maybe they need to be working for another game.

I will be turning off my VIP again if they do this. its there revenue.

[Angelic-council]

Just add critical multiplier into specific ED core and leave everything as it is. What tradeoff you are even talking about varg. Many spells stop scaling in mid heroic. Once a player enter into the epics, they choose ED. That's where their new journey begins. If they want more power and tradeoff, they can choose many different feats, including ED feats for spell power, and farm their gear.

Casters are lacking in epics. Why we need extra tradeoff. I thought this would be an intelligent discussion. Not what others say, but what is really needed and right. In any case, I wish best possible good luck. Because I don't see any other efficient way how you guys could implement critical multiplier. If not breaking the balance.

[MeliCat]

Not read thread just OP. Am unenthused. But then I don't tend to find nukers interesting. Until CL, spell level caps, EDs not including CL, and individual spells either not working or just being useless, it seems somewhat ineffectual.

[slarden]

Your proposal (and many others) would be stronger & more powerful. It's not immediately clear it would be better. Taking those feats would be a tradeoff, which is one reason it's a safer change. Clearly you don't want to make the tradeoff, and just want the power, but that's a different different conversation.

I think the concern with the feats is that it's an easy choice for a dc-dumping build like Shiradi and light spamming builds because they typically don't have many critical feats. For DC builds especially those without bonus feats the sacrifice they are making is much greater. DPS is already more important than DC in this game. The 2 extra crit damage feats could significantly alter what builds are played.

It's easy to fit those 2 feats on my shiradi caster - just drop toughness and epic toughness which I was only taking because there nothing else I needed. On a DC casting build every feat is critical so the sacrifice is greater.

[nibel]

Vargouille - Since you're considering factoring these caster changes into epic levels, why not allow players to take proper class levels into Epic instead of just doing "Commoner" levels, which many players seem to hate anyways?


If they had proposed an Epic class level system versus the Epic Destiny system we got, way back when, I'd say the class levels would be the clear winner.

But now? After years of the Epic Destiny system, including it's add-ons like Fate Points, Epic Reincarnation, etc.? I think it might be too late to switch.


It is never to late to do things right.
Just sayin

Add me to the list that would love to have actual epic classes, instead of Epic Commoner.

I would even go as far as leaving "epic commoner" out there as a free option, and use the 12 current epic destinies as actual epic classes, each only 495 TP on the DDO Store, or 995 TP for a full sphere unlock. Everyone that currently has access to EDs get access to those 12 classes.

In some cases, even "epic commoner" would be a reasonable choice, with all the generalist bonus, like +Melee/Ranged Power, +Spell Power, +Skills, etc...

Now, the problem would be how to make Fate points and Twists of Fate work under such conditions. Or giving some free TP for everyone that had eaten a Fate Tome as a refund.

[Failedlegend]

My problem is that, with wizards (and to a lesser extent arcanotech artificers), have no synergy with other destinies other than draconic and magister.

Shadowdancer, with Vargs proposed you can now get evasion and several Int-based abilities without losing your Epic DCs

The ONLY thing this hurts is people who play a maxed out destiny from Lvl 20 which frankly should be Epic Level limited anyways.

This is a GREAT proposal and once again like many great ideas before it it's been quashed for dumb reasons.

Varg please ignore the whiners, just go ahead and do it, it's better for DDO and the whiners will get over it.

[Impaqt]

This idea was something of an experiment, that I pushed to try - attempting smaller but definitely-helpful changes. From the response it sounds like DDO should currently avoid such a model, so we'll probably end pulling back on this and waiting until we find more time to devote.

That said, I went cowboy and put this out on a weekend, which I'm not really supposed to do - in the hopes we'd have some good feedback by the time the rest of the team is on Monday. In that respect, the experiment succeeded. We probably shouldn't try to get anything in Soon(tm).

Thanks you for pulling the reigns in on this.

Caster levels and Crit damage is NOT the solution players want. What <I> want to see, and what I find more people I play with want to see is better and more damage from general damage spells moving into and scaling with Epic levels.....

Spells like Incendiary Cloud, Horrid wilting, DBF, Meteor Swarm, and Greater shout are barely worth their spell point cost the level you pick em up and simply do not work going into and through epic levels. and why doesnt Black Dragon Bolt stack and scale like our L5 DOT's?

We need some spells that actually do serious damage without spending feats. the fact that most casters when facing an end boss are relegated to stacking level 5 DOT's sucks

[moo_cow]

This idea was something of an experiment, that I pushed to try - attempting smaller but definitely-helpful changes. From the response it sounds like DDO should currently avoid such a model, so we'll probably end pulling back on this and waiting until we find more time to devote.

That said, I went cowboy and put this out on a weekend, which I'm not really supposed to do - in the hopes we'd have some good feedback by the time the rest of the team is on Monday. In that respect, the experiment succeeded. We probably shouldn't try to get anything in Soon(tm).

Hopefully it isn't pushed back too far.

[Singular]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.


Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

Wow, very glad you are looking at doing this so quickly.

Couple of points:

- raising caster level won't do much for pure casters
- it doesn't address the problems we have with spells (most buffs being useless b/c of items, some being broken (prot from evil, gh w/regards to fear), low maximum levels


But the feats look cool. Keep in mind that if you do that, all dps casters will have to take them. So you're locking dps casters into one path if you don't have alternatives.

[HatsuharuZ]

Thanks you for pulling the reigns in on this.

Caster levels and Crit damage is NOT the solution players want. What <I> want to see, and what I find more people I play with want to see is better and more damage from general damage spells moving into and scaling with Epic levels.....

Spells like Incendiary Cloud, Horrid wilting, DBF, Meteor Swarm, and Greater shout are barely worth their spell point cost the level you pick em up and simply do not work going into and through epic levels. and why doesnt Black Dragon Bolt stack and scale like our L5 DOT's?

We need some spells that actually do serious damage without spending feats. the fact that most casters when facing an end boss are relegated to stacking level 5 DOT's sucks

I agree with you about everything but BDB. It's a lot more powerful than other dots, and iirc the cooldown is quicker than Eladar's or Niac's.

This is just my suspicion, but I think that it would be very difficult to measure the DPS increase from increasing the maximum CLs of spells, and there could be unintended consequences from such changes, which might result in nerfs or even a reversal of those changes, which would result in much RAAAGEE on the forums. Thus, Varg posted a few very simple changes that would require a minimum of coding. It's not like he and the other devs have a lot of time on their hands. Of course, this is all speculation on my part.

[EllisDee37]

This is just my suspicion, but I think that it would be very difficult to measure the DPS increase from increasing the maximum CLs of spellsIn terms of measuring the increase in dps, I would think adding MCL would be the easiest to calculate. MCL increases the base spell damage before any multipliers (spell power, criticals, arcane supremacy, whatever) are taken into account. That means that whatever x% increase you do to the base results in exactly x% increase in dps.

[bls904c2]

You're damned right I don't want make a trade off. It is insanely stupid that casters should have to give up ANYTHING to gain a pittance more damage considering the god-mode you made barbs, pallies, bards, and mechanics.

Please tell me what they traded off for their insane power increases?

i'm kind of disappointed in this.

Vargouille was trying to give some small changes over the next several updates baby steps as you will. they already have said a rough outline for improvements on classes and its a while before they reach spell casters.

all Vargouille was tring to accomplish is one small thing this update and a few more small changes in later updates because it takes a lot of resources to boost a class. it is either wait probably a year or more for boost to magic users or a few small ones that can make things a little bit better or at least giving us more choices.

yes i agree bards, pallies and so on are strong but it's one class at a time to do. i believe casters need some love now not in a year and small changes each update could have given some love, albet small red haired step child kind of love but it was him trying something different and we chewed his head off.

please give suggestions not hatred. he is a player after all.

[EllisDee37]

On the one hand I feel for Varg, who made a seemingly reasonable suggestion only to have it be torn to shreds by the masses. I've certainly experienced my share of this.

On the other hand, Ape_Man's irritation is fully understandable and defensible. The last four updates have significantly increased melee power for various melee classes with absolutely no trade-off. It's bad form to follow that policy by saddling casters with trade-offs for their power increase.

Conceptually, trade-offs are good. Unfortunately, for the past six months the DDO team has completely abandoned them with their ongoing balancing pass. It may be too late to get back to the days of trade-offs.

[HatsuharuZ]

In terms of measuring the increase in dps, I would think adding MCL would be the easiest to calculate. MCL increases the base spell damage before any multipliers (spell power, criticals, arcane supremacy, whatever) are taken into account. That means that whatever x% increase you do to the base results in exactly x% increase in dps.

That's true, but the devs would have to do that for ALL of the spells they raise the max CL for, and take into account things like mob HP, spellpower, amongst other things. Remember, their job isn't to make our characters powerful, but to make the game interesting. Buffing us makes the game easier, and that isn't really good for the game if they buff our characters (especially casters) too much.

[Silverleafeon]

Yeah, I said it before: devs should fix first the problem of mana efficiency, and after they will have easier balance a boost on damage. And the problem with mana efficiency, imho, is that the metamagic is TOO expensive. You can't turn on permanently metamagic feats, because they drain the blue bar in a blink of eye. But when you have metamagic on, the dps is not too bad--- very nice on sorc and fvs, ok on druid, low on wizzie, but… work.

If we could use permanently our metamagic feats, yet we need a small up on dps--- but not so big as we need with the current inefficiency metamagic! And it's more healtly for the game… no bigs improvements on dps, only an old source, better used, and maybe a little up if this is not enough.

I guess that a way to regenerate spell points shiradi / fvs style can work too ... but I still think that those who have invested in metamagic feats and enhancements that lower their cost (and are stupidly expensive!!) should have as reward to use those feats in epic without feeling that they are been drained to the bottom each time the feats are been turned up. It's an investment of many feats (empower, maximize, heighten, quicken at very least), and often 16 or more action points for a performance that currently can only be described as veeeeeeeeeeeery expensive for our blue bar.

But, please, devs, in a way or another (metamagic reduction, mana regeneration, or other ways), look for a better mana efficiency in epic. Because I sincerely believe that this is the most serious problem, and if you, devs, improve this, the boost in DPS will not have to be drastic.

+1 well said

and a good point

Fawn has to turn off most of her metamagics and this is why toons with great slas such as Sorcerers do better than wizards, and why we depend upon ED sla, simply because they are slas...

[Alternative]

Your proposal (and many others) would be stronger & more powerful. It's not immediately clear it would be better. Taking those feats would be a tradeoff, which is one reason it's a safer change. Clearly you don't want to make the tradeoff, and just want the power, but that's a different different conversation.

I'll say this only one more time, you are buffing shiradi casters here, not the casters that actually need buffing. For shiradi this will be a non-trade-off as they do not build for DCs or spell pen, and WILL BE a massive power boost. Did you not see the 40k crit threads?

Another thing to consider, a 10 fvs 10 sorc multiclass, will get +8 caster levels to both classes? or just the dominant one? and which class would be the dominant, would it follow the alphabet or the current TR rules where fvs is after sorc because it was added later?

[Angelic-council]

I'll say this only one more time, you are buffing shiradi casters here, not the casters that actually need buffing. For shiradi this will be a non-trade-off as they do not build for DCs or spell pen, and WILL BE a massive power boost. Did you not see the 40k crit threads?

Another thing to consider, a 10 fvs 10 sorc multiclass, will get +8 caster levels to both classes? or just the dominant one? and which class would be the dominant, would it follow the alphabet or the current TR rules where fvs is after sorc because it was added later?

Thank you. At least there are people who understand this. I really hope turbine see this too. Pure casters are struggling with the heroic (save based) damaging spells. While shiradi don't even need DC. They want more SP (mental toughtness) and everything that will boost their free DPS power.

There is simply no way how turbine can help pure casters without buffing each class indivisualy (revamp spells etc), or add multiplier into each ED core, that can't be twisted.

[Singular]

It's clear this is a contentious issue, so we aren't likely to move quickly on it. The main thrust of these discussions seems to be, "Wait, hold on...", so, OK!


I should have worded our goals better; the change in where Caster Levels come from is more from years of feedback complaining that being restricted to specific destinies to get those caster levels is highly undesirable. In the past years, relatively few people coming out in defense of the current design, though that's hard to gauge -- rarely do players happy with the status quo speak up unless impending change to that status quo appears, which is why it's important for us to bring up thoughts like this now and then.

Yes, we know how caster levels work. No, we didn't expect going from +5 to +8 to be a massive damage boost for most casters (but it help some casters in some situations, such as 18/2 Savants with Polar Ray or anyone with Spell Penetration). Clearly some players are loathe to lose the +5 levels at level 20, though they probably shouldn't have been there to being with.

The feats were a fairly safe option for the near term; clearly most players don't really want a "safe" option for the near term. We'll need to think and examine and design for longer before we add a great deal of caster damage to all casters. Those would include any of the proposals suggesting adding spell power, spell critical chance, spell critical damage, or maximum caster levels added to Epic Levels or Epic Destinies.



Your proposal (and many others) would be stronger & more powerful. It's not immediately clear it would be better. Taking those feats would be a tradeoff, which is one reason it's a safer change. Clearly you don't want to make the tradeoff, and just want the power, but that's a different different conversation.





Surely we should think about it. That is our job.


Who said it is? We made a new spell on Friday. Mostly. (And Confusion before that, and many others. Many of those spells are accessed through enhancements, of course.)


As stated, small was the intent. Clearly some players are inherently against small changes, so we'll probably put this off.


Update 26. Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast have already been previewed on Lamannia.



Five, not six.

At level 24 you would be at -1, unless you were playing in an "inappropriate" sphere, in which case it's +4.


This set of changes on the whole clearly benefits Wizards more than any other class.


+3, not +2.


It's spell critical damage, which only applies when you critically hit with a spell. There are no proposed Spell Power changes (from us). I'm not sure I'm understanding or answering the question you are trying to ask.





No. The main goal of that change was to separate Destinies from Caster Levels. Clearly that is not fully desired by all players (and as some have pointed out has some possibly negative consequences to build variety), so we'll have to slow down and think about it some more.



Improved Critical is clearly the most overpowered feat in DDO. There is roughly 0.0% chance that we will be trying to make all feats as powerful as Improved Critical.


Yes.


We understand how it works. My apologies for not explaining that the entire point of each change wasn't to just increase damage for all casters. None of the changes were intended to do that.

(There are of course some situations, mostly where casters were outside their sphere, where this does increase DPS, but let's not quibble over facts.)


I'm confused. If as proposed is too strong, how does adding the same power into existing feats, and increasing the numbers make them appropriate? Or are we talking about both feats and Action Boosts?



Both correct. As stated, the proposal in the first post wasn't intended as a final solution. It was intended to make DDO a better game than it is right now, ideally with the resources we have to devote in the near future, without harming future goals & changes.

This idea was something of an experiment, that I pushed to try - attempting smaller but definitely-helpful changes. From the response it sounds like DDO should currently avoid such a model, so we'll probably end pulling back on this and waiting until we find more time to devote.

That said, I went cowboy and put this out on a weekend, which I'm not really supposed to do - in the hopes we'd have some good feedback by the time the rest of the team is on Monday. In that respect, the experiment succeeded. We probably shouldn't try to get anything in Soon(tm).


Ah, rats, was enjoying the speed of the potential changes.

Have to say, I actually quite like the decoupling of caster levels to ED spheres - you sold me on that. At that point, though, casters might rethink taking Draconic/Magister.

Ok, so why not work with increasing level caps for spells instead? That would increase dps for casters and be level dependent.

Other suggestions:

- add increased crit or something to existing feats. So Epic Improved Mental Toughness might add +5% to crit power and Epic Spell Power might add another 5% to the particular sphere it buffs (if 5% is too low, just increase it - you suggested 40%)

- increase max caster level (either 1/epic level or 1/2 or 1/3rd per epic level, whatever works)

- add increased spell crit damage to epic levels (make it small, like 1-2%/epic level)

- just work with spell power and avoid adding to critical damage; add it in similar ways

-------

If you keep the changes small and tie them to existing feats, you don't screw up anyone's build and it allows you to create items with corresponding small bonuses to crit chance to achieve the overall effect you were going for, which was +40%.

[Failedlegend]

Seriously guys chill this is NOT the "spell pass" just a quick change to make EDs a little less restrictive to DC casters, he's probably going to stick an intern on it, or being that he posted this on the weekend do it himself for fun on his own time. There is almost no downside to this (except for Lvl 20s using maxed of destinies which is NOT WAI)

Varg you idea is awesome, please don't hesitate to put it through.

[Angelic-council]

i'm kind of disappointed in this.

Vargouille was trying to give some small changes over the next several updates baby steps as you will. they already have said a rough outline for improvements on classes and its a while before they reach spell casters.

all Vargouille was tring to accomplish is one small thing this update and a few more small changes in later updates because it takes a lot of resources to boost a class. it is either wait probably a year or more for boost to magic users or a few small ones that can make things a little bit better or at least giving us more choices.

yes i agree bards, pallies and so on are strong but it's one class at a time to do. i believe casters need some love now not in a year and small changes each update could have given some love, albet small red haired step child kind of love but it was him trying something different and we chewed his head off.

please give suggestions not hatred. he is a player after all.

That's why we are all thankful to varg. Because he is taking his time doing this project.

As a player, we all care about the future of DDO and how casters are played. It's ok to get angry.

[Silverleafeon]

What about separating caster levels and spell pen?
Is that a good idea?
Or a bad one?


Each Epic Level now provides +1 Spell Pen for all spells.
Each Epic Level now provides an 5% discount to all metamagic sp costs.



New proposed Epic Destiny Feat:
Demi-God Toughness


Passive
+25% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 26, Arcane Sphere filled



Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

Thank you for listening

[Eth]

So... your saying classes which naively have one light spell and no healing should all use fire(most resisted element) or stacks of consumables to keep this up? unless your a pale-master and cant use cure light wounds and just need to use ineffective fire.

This will get your empyrian magic stack to 10 even outside of combat in no time. Works on any class. Thank me later.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Eternal_Wand_of_Cure_Minor_Wounds

[davmuzl]

Giving caster lvls out through epic lvls makes a lot more sense than through epic destinies and as said should have been that way in the first place. This also has nothing to do with a general nerf and will benefit a lot of casters in a good way. Especially for druids this is great. Yes there are a few levels where this will have a negative impact mainly on whoever has problems with spell pen and yes that's the level area where this has the highest impact (because of the high number of drow), but overall definitly better.

Maybe people are just worried because builds that don't care about DCs will benefit the most, but the way to "fix" DC vs nonDC casting is not by going with a bad design.

Also I think having a discussion about specific topics is a good thing so suggestions can be made more "effective".

[Blackheartox]

Giving caster lvls out through epic lvls makes a lot more sense than through epic destinies and as said should have been that way in the first place. This also has nothing to do with a general nerf and will benefit a lot of casters in a good way. Especially for druids this is great. Yes there are a few levels where this will have a negative impact mainly on whoever has problems with spell pen and yes that's the level area where this has the highest impact (because of the high number of drow), but overall definitly better.

Maybe people are just worried because builds that don't care about DCs will benefit the most, but the way to "fix" DC vs nonDC casting is not by going with a bad design.

Also I think having a discussion about specific topics is a good thing so suggestions can be made more "effective".

The isssue i have with the dc vs non dc debate is rather simple.
Non dc casters can focus on defenses since they are allowed for splashing, non dc casters have a splash that gives them high sp efficiency, non dc casters dont require gear past life etc.
There is 1 destiny based for non dc casting, while there are 3 based for dc casting.
Non dc casting should not be ahead, ever.
Shiradi should not outshine magister/draconic and exalted.
I could add primal to the list as a caster destiny and to some degree fatesinger and dcrusader, but that even more goes to benefit of point i want to make.

A extremely boring, 0 effort to gear, 0 skill required to play playstyle should not be the best caster playstyle in ddo imo.
That only kills the true spirit of ddo and feels extremely irritation for me personally since i played casters back before motu on alt and melle only on main.

Example baldurs gate did the whole wild mage thing amazingly well.
(sorry to go back to this)

You were able to cast high level spells by transmuting powers and shaping magic at your own will as a low level caster allowing you to cast lets say timestop as a miserly lv 8 wizzard, that was extremely powerful, but the risk was so high since in more then 50% cases your spells would backfire and come back with a negative effect.
Spell could turn for the bad and summon a pack of squirrells, heal all your enemies in range to full health, summon a high level pit fiend to demolish your group, change gender of your caster, give you hicups and thus make you unable to cast verbal based spells, turn you to stone, negative level you, heal you, teleport you into the middle of a angry pack.
We dont really have negative effects for shiradi in ddo

[Eth]

You were able to cast high level spells by transmuting powers and shaping magic at your own will as a low level caster allowing you to cast lets say timestop as a miserly lv 8 wizzard, that was extremely powerful, but the risk was so high since in more then 50% cases your spells would backfire and come back with a negative effect.
Spell could turn for the bad and summon a pack of squirrells, heal all your enemies in range to full health, summon a high level pit fiend to demolish your group, change gender of your caster, give you hicups and thus make you unable to cast verbal based spells, turn you to stone, negative level you, heal you, teleport you into the middle of a angry pack.
We dont really have negative effects for shiradi in ddo

Played BG a couple months ago again. Found that out the hard way (2/3 of my gold destroyed. lol).

[Zafaron]

Non dc casting should not be ahead, ever.
Shiradi should not outshine magister/draconic and exalted.
I could add primal to the list as a caster destiny and to some degree fatesinger and dcrusader, but that even more goes to benefit of point i want to make.

A extremely boring, 0 effort to gear, 0 skill required to play playstyle should not be the best caster playstyle in ddo imo.
That only kills the true spirit of ddo and feels extremely irritation for me personally since i played casters back before motu on alt and melle only on main.



The styles of play are different, as you said. DC casters don't need to do loads of damage because they instant kill/charm/cc stuff. Maybe a better idea would be to make those proposed spell critical damage feats have an additional effect that reduced the SP cost of some of the DC based spells and/or reduced the cooldown of the DC based spells. (charms, kills, negative levels, etc) Or add in a couple alternative feats that do those things so that the player could choose between either added crit, or more effective DC based spells.

I think the two different styles, damage vs DC should be equally viable, but each should be better in certain circumstances. In Mark of Death, the DC casters will always be more useful just as an example.




Adding caster levels to epic levels would also be a good step now, especially with the upcoming increase in level cap to 30. That would give 5 extra caster levels in a couple months over the max now. The detriment, of course, is the penalty to caster levels from 20-25 where people now seem to like to run the content on epic elite for faster leveling.

Another idea might be to increase the max caster level and/or spell DC on all spells with every even epic level gained. That would give a slight, but noticeable difference in damage and/or DC.

To keep things fair and interesting for those players that choose to play pure class casters, it probably would also be a good idea to improve the capstones for those classes accordingly.

[Blackheartox]

The styles of play are different, as you said. DC casters don't need to do loads of damage because they instant kill/charm/cc stuff. Maybe a better idea would be to make those proposed spell critical damage feats have an additional effect that reduced the SP cost of some of the DC based spells and/or reduced the cooldown of the DC based spells. (charms, kills, negative levels, etc) Or add in a couple alternative feats that do those things so that the player could choose between either added crit, or more effective DC based spells.

I think the two different styles, damage vs DC should be equally viable, but each should be better in certain circumstances. In Mark of Death, the DC casters will always be more useful just as an example.




Adding caster levels to epic levels would also be a good step now, especially with the upcoming increase in level cap to 30. That would give 5 extra caster levels in a couple months over the max now. The detriment, of course, is the penalty to caster levels from 20-25 where people now seem to like to run the content on epic elite for faster leveling.

Another idea might be to increase the max caster level and/or spell DC on all spells with every even epic level gained. That would give a slight, but noticeable difference in damage and/or DC.

To keep things fair and interesting for those players that choose to play pure class casters, it probably would also be a good idea to improve the capstones for those classes accordingly.

If you test critical damage on lamania on warlock now, you will agree with me that its the best scaling casting ability they added to ddo.
Now i dont want to got against turbines ideas, but i can repeat this many times, adding critical damage does not fix casting at all, or make it more interesting, doesnt help half of us spells being useful either, it just does what they did to palie, adds holy sword.
Trust me, that people will complain about crit damage only more as they play around with it.
And as i said, i pulled off 14-16 k ruin crits on a pure lv 128 warlock with only thforged (Nonhelpless) that has a total ammount of 30 +20 + 10 = 60% spell critical damage.
On the particular shiradi build i presented with this proposal you would have 10 + 20 from cores +20 +20 from feats 70% spell critical damage while keeeping everything else a shiradi has.
I dont mind playing that build, but if i with a deficit of 100ish spellpower managed to create such high crits then the said build with 10% more critcal damage and full array of shiradi spells and crit chance, then that build that would be ahead by at least 150-200 spellpower, will be capable of doing 20-30 k ruin crits.
I dont need to add how much this adds in dps when you count in, crit damage amplified aura ticks/mm/mmsla/chain misssile/chain sla/hellball and flawless synergy with energy burst fire /random other elements due to archmage.
I mean, i do try to see what benefit i will get a s sorc player who would be happy to swap back to sorc with this change, but the benefit that the particular shiradi build gets doesnt sit well with me.
While i will be taxed with 2 feats to get 40% spell crit damage as a sorc, lose a potential 1 or 2 dc /in case for example i pick epic enchant and epic charisma that evens out my char, a shiradi wont sacrifice anything.
I just dont think that should be like that.
To tax the true to spirit of casting builds, while entirely braindead buff up shiradi?
Why?

As said multiple times, put crit damage into ep destiny cores and viola, best solution

Dc casters dont have issues to control trash with current dcs, by adding this change you force us to drop dcs , thus lowering our trash clear capability.
Sp was never a issue as a properly geared caster, only drawback we had and have is boss dps and that is exactly where our blue bar issues come from
While this change would fix boss dps, it also would force us dc casters to drop dcs and make us lose ground on trash control while being capable of killing bosses.
Ok i like the idea inititally, make trade for better dps, all cool.
But what about shiradi?
With this change i see it like this:
dc caster, trash lower efficiency- check, more boss dps- check, lower spell penetration for when it matters- check
shiradi caster, trash efficiency high- check, more boss dps- check, spell penetration (what is that?)- check, more prr mrr or dodge - check, more hp- check, possible stance from palie splash and even more survival - check, possible to slot in shield feats and enter god defense mode- check, sp efficiency even higher due to 70% spell crit damage and capability to dip into dual force crit lines- check etc etc etc etc

[rehakp]

The "crit feats" are interesting for somone, they will help to somone. But i stil feel its not enough by itself. Compared to meelee/ranged "crit profiles" and to stackable bonusses meelee/ranged combatants can get from feats/trees/equipment it still will be a joke ;) Its definately step in right direction and if more support is added into trees/destinies/equipment it can work. But it will need a LOT MORE if we want for example Fireball to be competitive with meelee swinging and cleaving.

The move caster levels into epic levels: I like this idea. Of course this will hurt some specific builds in 20-24 lvls but it will help to many many others. Today you are pretty mutch forced into "appropriate" sphere as caster because "penalty" for "wrong" destiny is 5 caster levels. As even more saddistic joke you get those "5 alien" caster levels you have absolutely no use for to remember you are doing something wrong.
So im saying hell yeaaah for this change. It will even help some multiclasses like 5 wizard/something meelee whose haste spell would last longer than 6 sec even in LD destiny ;)
It will help to "many" and it will only hurt some and only for few epic levels.

[SirValentine]

I think the exact opposite. You're basically nerfing wizard's early epic levels by removing their desperately-needed spell penetration in MOTU-releated content.


Not to disagree with everything you said, because yes, it's it will make MotU Drow a lot tougher in early epic levels. But really, it's less of a nerf to Wizards relative to other casters, since 5 bonus feats makes it a lot easier to pick up multiple Spell Pen feats for Wizards than for anybody else.

Oh, and (not directed to you, Hasty, just in general) since Spell Pen and Caster Level are being mentioned this would be a good time to point out once again how Wiz/Sorc have Arcane Augmentation as an option that none of the other casting classes (even the Arcane ones) have available. Please change Arcane Augmentation to Spell Augmentation, and make it apply to all spells.

[Failedlegend]

Now i dont want to got against turbines ideas this does not fix casting at all

and I REPEAT this is NOT the spell pass...it's not SUPPOSED to "fix" casting it was just a way to make EDs less restrictive to DC casters.

All your doing is discouraging the devs from making small QOL changes



As stated, small was the intent. Clearly some players are inherently against small changes, so we'll probably put this off.


Varg I doubt most people would be against small changes, especially ones that just improve QOL like this one (since it makes EDs less annoying for people who rely on DCs) and frankly "small" is probably the only way some of this stuff will make it in....not to mention the interns can't be getting coffee all the time (see: cows renamed to oxen :D)

[Eth]

and I REPEAT this is NOT the spell pass it was just a way to make EDs less restrictive to DC casters and add a couple extra feats besides judging by the fact it was posted on the weekend Varg may have done it on his own free time.

All your doing is discouraging the devs from making small QOL changes

This is not what I'd call QOL. This directly affects build choices. I'd be glad if this caster level change would never make it to live.

[Failedlegend]

This is not what I'd call QOL. This directly affects build choices. I'd be glad if this caster level change would never make it to live.

Why it just gives more ED choices, EDs can easily be changed...if your issue is not getting ALL your Epic DCs at Lvl 20 than know that was broken anyways.

[Blackheartox]

This is not what I'd call QOL. This directly affects build choices. I'd be glad if this caster level change would never make it to live.

I agree that this change is terrible.
The idea is good, but the implementation proposal is terrible.

They should give us a 2nd proposal, they are on a good path

[Eth]

Why it just gives more ED choices, EDs can easily be changed...if your issue is not getting ALL your Epic DCs at Lvl 20 than know that was broken anyways.

It was already mentioned by numerous other posters what is broken about it.
I don't care about getting more or less caster levels on my caster, because they don't do anything in terms of damage (except for some epic destiny abilities).
But I do care how this change would make low level arcane splashes in shiradi even more broken then they are already.

[Kalevor]

I think the best option is to put the big bonus crit damage in the caster ED (draconic, magister and exalted) and another smaller bonus in the ED "semi-caster" (fatesinger, crusader, primal avatar).
It is not fair to balance to damage through feats... because always benefits the same builds.
The caster levels are just fine the way they are now because, again, it only benefits the same builds... If you are concern about the performance of some DC casters in the next coming epic content you need to buf the feats they are going to pick (spell penetration feats), give'em additional 50% or 100% of the benefit.

Kal

[Iriale]

It's clear this is a contentious issue, so we aren't likely to move quickly on it. The main thrust of these discussions seems to be, "Wait, hold on...", so, OK!


I should have worded our goals better; the change in where Caster Levels come from is more from years of feedback complaining that being restricted to specific destinies to get those caster levels is highly undesirable. In the past years, relatively few people coming out in defense of the current design, though that's hard to gauge -- rarely do players happy with the status quo speak up unless impending change to that status quo appears, which is why it's important for us to bring up thoughts like this now and then.
Well, the idea is good--- but need a little more changes. The problems that I see with the change of caster levels:

* Problems of SR in menace, the first pack that we do in epics. Menace is balanced thinking in a full caster level from EDS--- in truth, we have problems even with the full bonus of ED lol. But if you lower the SR of menace drows balancing it with the new caster level at low epics, we will be fine the change.

* It’s pity as caster play in an off ED. This is true, but the main pain is to have less DC (spells that don’t work and/or half of damage due to failed saves) and, in some cases, less spell points (our main problem, now, is a bad mana efficiency) If you want to help casters, you need divorce caster levels from EDs, but you need more to do universal the ability increases of the EDs. DC is so important for traditional casters… a lot more than caster levels. And this helps too to int hybrids (divine crusader is the only ED good for a hybrid, but his abilities don’t include int…) and dex-based rogues (who usually play on legendary or crusader) and int-based rogues and artis.

* Does bigger the difference between good EDs and mediocres and bad EDs. Well, I guess that you will review the other EDs some day, so this is a problem that will be solved with time, but you should see about the unfair boost that exalted angels is for cha-based builds, and only for cha-based builds. And about shiradi casters… well, the problem is that they are the biggest winners with this change, but this is not important if you solve the mana efficiency of traditional casters, because shiradi won’t be as tempting if traditional caster work fine too--- then only will be other option. Note that if you do universal the ability increases on the EDs, exalted will be good for all lol. We can live with this while you review the others EDs. But if you change the caster levels, don’t forget this problem, because if not you will be creating a big unbalance.

I am not opposed to small changes, but this one I think that is too much conflictive for do it without additional changes. As is proposed, the biggest winners are the shiradi builds and the exalted angel not divine builds. I think that this would be good with more balance, however.


Yes, we know how caster levels work. No, we didn't expect going from +5 to +8 to be a massive damage boost for most casters (but it help some casters in some situations, such as 18/2 Savants with Polar Ray or anyone with Spell Penetration). Clearly some players are loathe to lose the +5 levels at level 20, though they probably shouldn't have been there to being with.
We know that you know the game :) But is easy overlook some details. Simply notice than menace is balanced for a full ED-bonus. Balance menace and we will be fine with this. Nowadays is more difficult play a DC caster at level on epics than a melee--- the DC increase is a lot item-dependant and we don’t get a good DC at low levels. If you add now more problems with SR… ouch. But hey, the fix is easy. Balance menace too :)


The feats were a fairly safe option for the near term; clearly most players don't really want a "safe" option for the near term. We'll need to think and examine and design for longer before we add a great deal of caster damage to all casters. Those would include any of the proposals suggesting adding spell power, spell critical chance, spell critical damage, or maximum caster levels added to Epic Levels or Epic Destinies.
If the casters were fine right now, it would be fair to ask for trade-offs. Change power for power. But this is a fix for something that is not working and that is a source of frustration for many of us (I, seeing that there was no action, had already decided to leave the game at the end of my subscription, imagine how big is my frustration) you can not ask for trade-offs in a fix, Varg. Not when the trade-off that you ask compromises our DC. Get a DC that work is a massive investment; we have done a lot of trade offs for our DC already; and really we can not afford to give up more DC. The extreme builds with a DC superhigh that you see on these forums rarely translate into real builds: these extreme builds have changed all dps per DC—don’t worth in the actual game where dps rules lol. Actually, Varg, we can get a DC that works, but it requires much effort and many trade-offs, and we are unable to give up more DC. Nor is fair to ask us another trade-off. Seriously, are not already enough those that we have done? Do you think I do not like to have better defences in my casters? What I do not like to have better dps? Well, I can not because all I could have spent there I have invested in DC

And if we add to this that you have not asked for any trade-off in the melee changes... ouch. Why do you want to penalize to spellcasters?



Your proposal (and many others) would be stronger & more powerful. It's not immediately clear it would be better. Taking those feats would be a tradeoff, which is one reason it's a safer change. Clearly you don't want to make the tradeoff, and just want the power, but that's a different different conversation.
Some proposals were a bit stronger, but… change a pity dps and a working DC for a mediocre dps and a not working DC is your idea of a fix? This is a fix, Varg, a fix don’t need trade-offs.



Surely we should think about it. That is our job.
And I thank you for your job. I think that you (devs) are doing a sincere effort and I am glad for this. But listen the concerns of the players can help to avoid some collateral problems :) We want changes, Varg, we NEED changes. But see for the collateral consequences and fix these too, please :)



Who said it is? We made a new spell on Friday. Mostly. (And Confusion before that, and many others. Many of those spells are accessed through enhancements, of course.) Update 26. Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast have already been previewed on Lamannia.

Well… the problem is that confusion and the others are only spells for a new class. We need more variety in our current classes, Varg. It’s not only that there are few spells for the current classes, is that the number of (working) spells is reduced in epics due to epic wards and the rampant immunities. Too because in epics the difference between our 2 main schools and the others is abysmal… the spells outside of these 2 schools are almost useless for this. And more. A lot of spells don’t work on heroics nor epics (dispels? Useless. Many buffs? Useless or better on items. Utility spells? True seeing and detect doors nerfed, etc) And I could to say more, but you get the point, right?

I know this is matter for a spell big pass and not for a fast change for the next update, but if you want to make happy players, think about it, and do changes someday. Because the variety of spells now is depressing, and now is lower than ever. And too, when you make a class like the warlock with little choice of spells but with all spells that work for another class, and you think that's not interference, we laugh. How we will not laugh? Nobody really has a choice on spells, or it is so small that it is almost nonexistent.



As stated, small was the intent. Clearly some players are inherently against small changes, so we'll probably put this off.
That's not entirely accurate. We are open to small changes as we wait for great changes (because the big ones are necessary), although we noted some minor ramifications of these changes. You ask us for that, right? If you don’t want that we told the additional problems and changes that we see and want, you would not ask, you just would do the changes.

Relax, Varg. We are very glad seeing that you, devs, are working in the spellcaster's problems. We are happy with some small changes while you get the time for big changes. Thank you (devs, all devs) for all your work. Thank you for asking our opinion!