Magical Damage in Epic

[MonadRebelion]

* Problems of SR in menace, the first pack that we do in epics. Menace is balanced thinking in a full caster level from EDS--- in truth, we have problems even with the full bonus of ED lol. But if you lower the SR of menace drows balancing it with the new caster level at low epics, we will be fine the change.



I am against the idea the Drow SR should be easy to overcome. In pnp Drow SR is not a trivial matter and it shouldn't be in this game. Drow SR in EE should be the kind of thing that makes you change tactics. We should not be asking for the content to be made more trivial than it is.

[Doctorivil]

I'd like to see the caster level change from ED to Epic levels instead, it just makes sense. Getting all those caster levels (along with full capped destinies) feels a bit wrong and thereafter there is no progression on leveling up. Apart from gear what is there to gain from leveling from 21 to 23?
Overall it would be a +3 buff to CL (which also increases spell pen) at lv 28 (and a +5 when cap level goes up to 30).

Maybe if you could (now or later) along with that add maximum caster levels as core to Draconic and Angel (and possibly Magister and Crusader ED) so that these epic destinies are clearly intended to improve the real damage output to "pure nukers" spells.

About the spell crit damage feats, not sure if 2 feats aren't a bit too much, maybe only 1 that meets in the middle giving 30% spell critical damage.

Ofc those changes will later need to be backed up with new damaging spells that have higher maximum caster levels. And please, when you get to that point, don't just create epic spells that can be chosen as feats. Imho DDO could clearly use some lv8 and 9 stronger damaging spells (polar ray and black dragon bolt are cool'ish, but meteor swarm doesn't scale with caster levels and there is no electrical or fire spell in level 8 and 9, also electric could use a aoe dot spell like to match wall of fire/ice storm/acid rain et al).

Anyway those are just some thoughts didn't really read all the thread so there may be some repeated stuff in it.

[Iriale]

I am against the idea the Drow SR should be easy to overcome. In pnp Drow SR is not a trivial matter and it shouldn't be in this game. Drow SR in EE should be the kind of thing that makes you change tactics. We should not be asking for the content to be made more trivial than it is.
And the SR of drow is not easy of overcome now; you need a good investment for dealing with trash drows and yet is better use spell without SR against priestess. With the proposed changes, without additional changes, will be impossible use at level any spell with SR on menace. And please, remember that in pnp damage spells have SR too and that in pnp we have spells as assay spell resistance (+10 to overcome SR) and a lot of spells without SR.

And please, don’t say trivial to 6 past lifes, a feat, an expensive enhancement, and an ED skill, more an item. It’s not small investment lol.

[Iriale]

Yes, but I don't think they should wait after all Iriale. I mean, they already decided to do spell critical multiplier. Stopping it now will only extend their work. They can do something about spell efficientcy when the time comes. They also going to add new spells according to Sev. So, why wait?. It would be easier if they just implement this right away and at least give us a boost ASAP to help fix the situation.
Right, there is not need to wait to give us an increased spell critical: it will be something that sooner or later they will need to do. But here there are people proposing major changes, and I point out that if devs look first for mana efficiency, allowing us to use our metamagic feats more extensively, we won’t need big changes, only minor boosts.

with the actual mana efficiency, however, we will need a big dps boost. Those bosses in the 100K range of hps... ufff...

[Iriale]

The way melee and ranged power works, everybody does get some by default, regardless of destiny. This makes playing in an off destiny somewhat less crippling. Then there is more available from specific ed's. That makes sense to do that, but i wouldn't want them to put it only in the destinies.

I'm also not really a fan of the metamagics are free in epics idea. You can already reduce their costs quite a bit, but it's somewhat of a tradeoff. I do think they might consider making feats like ruin and hellball have free metamagics on them though.
And four feats at very last –empower, maximize, quicken and heighten-, and 16 or more action points are not a trade-off? Do you know how many things –defence, for example- can I buy with this investment? It’s a big investment, it’s a big trade off, and caster deserves for that a better performance than an empty blue bar before the middle of the fight.

Maybe it’s time to create a fatigue and stamina system for the melees also have some trade-offs :)

See, formerly the metamagic was expensive because it was a luxury; it was a way to get high dps spikes to high cost. Now, with the hps that epic enemies have, is not a luxury, it is a *need*. No metamagic, and takes a century to finish with one bosss. With metamagic, you run out of mana in the blink of an eye. Clearly, a change is needed... because the environment has changed.

[Saitiss]

*Darklens the Air savant teleport back from the plan of Air and say: Where can i vote yes ? :D*

[rehakp]

I am against the idea the Drow SR should be easy to overcome. In pnp Drow SR is not a trivial matter and it shouldn't be in this game. Drow SR in EE should be the kind of thing that makes you change tactics. We should not be asking for the content to be made more trivial than it is.

You cant just compare PnP D&D and DDO like that. In PnP meteorswarm even without metamagics can clear small army and/or put BOSS on submission. In DDO even with all those spellpower meteorswarm is waste SP/time most of the time, and good luck to kill any BOSS with it.
In D&D you will have 60% chance to land spell on on-level Drow encounter (11+level, but -2 for ECL SR) even naked and without taking single feat. In DDO try to not gear spell-pen, dont take spellpen feats or enhancements and no pastlifes ... then goodluck with onlevel drows.
I could continue and continue and continue .... but its pointless. The basics are that you just CANT compare D&D and DDO like that without taking hundreds and probably thousands things into consideration.
Its just better to think about it as 2 different things where one is just inspired by the other. Is you have "problem" with some rule in baseball for example you just solve that problem with baseball rules and with baseball in the mind. You are not trying to solve it with basketball and fooball rules just because both are using "balls". It would be little crazy right.
And its also little crazy to "solving" problems of DDO by referencing to D&D.

[JOTMON]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.


Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


DC's are a tough one to screw with.. find the balance point or you will kill DC casters.
DC's in EE content is already suffering as players migrate away from DC casting into bursters. or Shiradi keymashers.
I am not talking about 3x completionists/epic completionists drinking every pot known and using colours of the queen with theoretical max bs DC's running EN below level content..
but at level content by competent players... it wouldn't take much to kill DC casters and turn them all into Paladins/Barbarians/Bards....





New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

I like this option for Epic Destiny feats at level 26/28. it adds some variety of choice for casters of all types..
It is a good toss-up for choices of .. do I take hellball.. or 20% crit.. hmm.....
...although the 20 base spell power to a specific shool seems kind of sucky now... that may need some luv....

Would like to see more choices.. like ..
~Meta-magic savings options.. something that removes the cost or greatly reduces the cost of these meta's would be useful.
~Mana regen Feat something similar to bardsong spell regen (but stacks).. and not the BS temp sp stuff you guys seem to like.. we want real sp...

[rehakp]

.......

See, formerly the metamagic was expensive because it was a luxury; it was a way to get high dps spikes to high cost. Now, with the hps that epic enemies have, is not a luxury, it is a *need*. No metamagic, and takes a century to finish with one bosss. With metamagic, you run out of mana in the blink of an eye. Clearly, a change is needed... because the environment has changed.

The metas really really NEED redesign. Considering for example spell with basic cost 20SP with 300 appropriate spellpower(4x damage) (rather low). Maximized it becomes 45SP with 450 (5,5x damage) spellpower.
That is +125% SP for only (5,5/4) +37,5% damage increase. That i call Highly inefficient.

[Bart_D]

Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)
These small changes seem like no-brainers and it would have been better if it had been like this from the start, just like you get attack bonus and saves from epic levels.
In addition I'd like more freedom in choosing which stat can be raised in epic destinies, preferably allowing all 6 in all destinies. It would make sense to me if you could only raise the same single stat multiple times but that limitation is probably not important.
New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)
...
Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)

Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I
I don't know if the numbers (+20%) are right, but it seems like a fair idea to give another 'way' to boost damage other than Maximize/Empower. As a comparison, DC-casters can already improve their casting in two ways, either DC (Spell Focus) or Spell Penetration. Maybe the feats should increase casting SP? Thinking about it now, it seems a little odd that Spell Focus/Penetration are free while Maximize/Empower are not, but I guess that's just another oddity from D&D :)

[Tentaki]

Apologies if this was mentioned earlier, but I'd personally like a feat (maybe even in heroic) that basically gave you some extra spell crit damage based on spell power. For example, for every 100 spell power in a given type, you got an extra 5% spell critical damage, or something along those lines. (Please note the numbers are only meant to provide an example).

It'd make getting spell power in higher levels a bit more meaningful. While the increase in damage is the same, the difference in spell power is far more noticeable when you double your damage going from 0 to 100 spell power (a spell that does 20 damage would then do 40), compared to only a 12.5% increase in effectiveness going from 300 to 400 spell power (the same spell that does 20 base would go from 80 to 100 damage). While the effectiveness of spell power is the same, at higher levels, it's not as satisfying.

[CeltEireson]

The styles of play are different, as you said. DC casters don't need to do loads of damage because they instant kill/charm/cc stuff. Maybe a better idea would be to make those proposed spell critical damage feats have an additional effect that reduced the SP cost of some of the DC based spells and/or reduced the cooldown of the DC based spells. (charms, kills, negative levels, etc) Or add in a couple alternative feats that do those things so that the player could choose between either added crit, or more effective DC based spells.

I think the two different styles, damage vs DC should be equally viable, but each should be better in certain circumstances. In Mark of Death, the DC casters will always be more useful just as an example.


Whether a DC caster needs to do a load of damage really depends on whether they're in a group and the makeup of the group, particularly for casters who aren't focused on necromancy. Firstly its generally only possible to get one or maybe 2 schools to a high enough level to be relevant in epic elite if you're lucky , so if the mobs are immune or highly resistant to your main school you may have no choice in using direct damage, secondly for a school like enchantment most of the time you still have to kill them, admittedly they take more damage, but generally you cant just cast mass hold and run past them as you'll end up with red alert or in a lot of cases you need to kill all mobs in an area to continue. In heroics you can use enchantment to get them to kill each other but that's been nerfed in epics as the mobs break charms in about 11 seconds or so I believe.

Now should necromancer or enchantment specialists be the best at DPS? Of course not, but they've already lost dps by having to focus their feats on spell penetration and their main school meaning that their DCs for evocation spells will suffer effectively reducing their damage. I think the point that bothers a lot of people is that to make a full on damage only caster is a lot easier to do than a DC based one - no need for spell penetration, they can focus on only one element of school, less equipment needed, don't really need as many past lives, and multiclassing has much less of an impact on them so they can be in a better place to deal with incoming damage. Although to be fair I'm talking mainly about shiradi damage casters (who also get a level of crowd control due to shiradi as well) versus those who use draconic and magister.

[davmuzl]

I am with anyone who says that investing into DCs should be worth it when comparing it to shiradis. The first change I would make would be to give nerve venom a DC.
But calling this a bad change just because it might have a positive impact on a "broken" destiny is stupid. Again it should have been that way in the first place.
Also correct me if I'm wrong but afaik there ways to get caster levels through enhancements and gear anyway so the impact this has on shiradis wouldn't even be that high. Druids and Artis probably benefit the most (not sure if Bard healing spells reach the max caster level without this buff).

[CeltEireson]

This is not what I'd call QOL. This directly affects build choices. I'd be glad if this caster level change would never make it to live.

But we will need something that ups caster level before epic shroud and shavarath comes in (and im not talking about max caster level here) otherwise we are going to be in for a very tough time getting past devil spell resistance.

[Vanhooger]

Maybe it’s time to create a fatigue and stamina system for the melees also have some trade-offs :)


I agree 100%. I proposed that in some other post but nobody here is willing to stop the endless dps that melee&ranged have. Most people at the end like this game because it's easy.

As a melee/ranged you can even skip all the shrine in the game, just hit sometimes if you really want your boost back.

Even the strongest troll barbarian berseker after swinging his greataxe and moving on a heavy armor run out of stamina. In D&D this is handled by turn but we don't have it in DDO.

As for the topic I like the idea of caster level, but it will be useful just when you uncap spell.

Spell crit is nice, but need to be on destiny core and definetly NOT on shiradi.

Also make them feat is very bad choice, sorcerer already starve for.

[PermaBanned]

Your proposal (and many others) would be stronger & more powerful. It's not immediately clear it would be better. Taking those feats would be a tradeoff, which is one reason it's a safer change. Clearly you don't want to make the tradeoff, and just want the power, but that's a different different conversation.The purpose here as stated in your OP is to make caster damage scale better into Epics - yet you want to do it with trade-offs, which invariably means giving something up to get it... Why? Dmage isn't an issue divorced from DCs, as most damage spells have saves associated with them; so if we have to give up save boosting feats to get damage boosting feats, we're essentially cutting off part if the ladder's bottom to extend it's top - steps forward, steps back.


This set of changes on the whole clearly benefits Wizards more than any other class.Huh? While DPS Wizzards will have an easier time fitting in the extra feats, DC Wizards (because many of their spells have SpellPen checks) are getting the shaft as bad (if not worse) as the rest of the casters due to all the Drow in low level Forgotten Realms Epics.


My apologies for not explaining that the entire point of each change wasn't to just increase damage for all casters. None of the changes were intended to do that.Thread title of "Magical Damage in Epic" and again, "making caster damage scale better into epics" stated early in your OP - so surely you'll understand some confusion here ;)


This idea was something of an experiment, that I pushed to try - attempting smaller but definitely-helpful changes. From the response it sounds like DDO should currently avoid such a model, so we'll probably end pulling back on this and waiting until we find more time to devote.I don't think the model of "Small but deffinately helpful changes" is a bad idea - I do think we have some disagreement on just what "deffinately helpful" means because a reduced ability (for casters in a caster destiny) to break Spell Resistance from levels 20-24 is deffinately not helpful; and extra damage feats are nice sounding, but depending on what must be sacrificed (aka "traded off") to get them the "deffinately" can easily get detached from "helpful" like if I have to reduce my DCs to get additional damage.


That said, I went cowboy and put this out on a weekend, which I'm not really supposed to do - in the hopes we'd have some good feedback by the time the rest of the team is on Monday. In that respect, the experiment succeeded. We probably shouldn't try to get anything in Soon(tm).Actually, this "send it up & see if it flys" approach sounds like a great idea for helping to determine early if spending development resources on an idea would be appropriate - much better than the feeling of:
Look, we understand you guys don't seem to like these ideas, but we've already invested heavily into their development so it's happening - suck it up, cupcake! ...that we're occasionally left with.

[Violith]

While damage would be nice, Fixing caster levels would help out alot more.

sure, the change would make you lose 5 caster levels (Which only effect Spell pen anyway, since 99% of spells are capped below and the ones that arent usually are already increased as much as they can), so really unless your multiclassing this doesnt really effect anyone if the monsters spell resistance is correct for the level. Sschin it'd see some effect, since those drow CR are probably above what they should which effects their resistance, be but thats really the only place that this would effect at those levels.


I agree with others in that, You should increase the spell cap on caster level as you tie in the caster level to epic levels, This would increase damage as you stated you wanted to do. (which would already scale in epic as your casterlevel/spell power increase, as well as allow spell pen to scale as well), which would help balance newer modules that include spell resistance mobs. should be easy to code too if you just give each epic level a +1 caster level and a +1max caster level.

[MadCookieQueen]

Originally Posted by DevTeam
Look, we understand you guys don't seem to like these ideas, but we've already invested heavily into their development so it's happening - suck it up, cupcake!


...that we're occasionally left with.



and that was how non alignment restricted/lack of invocations Warlocks were born

[Dalsheel]

Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I




You are doing the same mistake again...

1st of all, these changes are nerfing the caster destinies. You'll have maximum caster level with sorcs running in Exalted Angel and Wizards running in Shiradi. This is simply not fair. This will greatly unbalance the various caster builds. The only viable build will be Exalted Sorcs, simply because it'll be light years ahead of any other caster build, especially arcane one.

2nd, 20% per feat? Really? You had the servers flood with bards once u22 came out and then you slowly nerfed them back to being balanced, the you did the same thing with pallies, then the same thing with barbarian although you haven't nerfed those yet. And now casters too? Yes, I would love for my wizard to be a little better on boss fights (since Vs trash she is simply a god amongst mortals), but this is too much... And the saddest thing is that you know it's too much.

I hope you dev listen to reason once, just once. Both the Caster level changes and the new feats will greatly unbalance things between casters. In fact, I'm willing to bet most players who run epic elite on a caster will be rerolling into Exalted Angel Sorc, as soon as these changes hit live. Forget Druids, Clerics, FvS and Wizzies. They will be almost as viable as now, but EA sorcs will simply outdps and outCC in every situation.

People are getting tired of this Turbine. Stop it!

[FestusHood]

The metas really really NEED redesign. Considering for example spell with basic cost 20SP with 300 appropriate spellpower(4x damage) (rather low). Maximized it becomes 45SP with 450 (5,5x damage) spellpower.
That is +125% SP for only (5,5/4) +37,5% damage increase. That i call Highly inefficient.

It only costs that much if you are not using anything, enhancements or gear to lower the cost.

It makes perfect sense to me that using metamagics is not efficient. It's sort of like turning on the turbocharger for a bit. It's not supposed to raise efficiency, just max power.

That's why i would prefer if they raised the base power of spells in some way rather than just making metas efficient or free. Might as well just remove the metas from the game then, and have them auto apply all the time to all casters. Would at least free up some feats. I like that there is a tactical decision to be made as to whether or not to have them on.

Edit: I'll make one exception, and that is heighten. It seems to me that effect should just kind of happen by itself, and not cost the use of a meta. That's just my feeling and in no way relates to official rules or the like.

[slarden]

You are doing the same mistake again...

1st of all, these changes are nerfing the caster destinies. You'll have maximum caster level with sorcs running in Exalted Angel and Wizards running in Shiradi. This is simply not fair. This will greatly unbalance the various caster builds.


This is my concern that it will significantly reduce build diversity. Both changes help Shiradi casters for examples while i am struggling to fit in feats on DC casters.

[Iriale]

It only costs that much if you are not using anything, enhancements or gear to lower the cost.

It makes perfect sense to me that using metamagics is not efficient. It's sort of like turning on the turbocharger for a bit. It's not supposed to raise efficiency, just max power.

That's why i would prefer if they raised the base power of spells in some way rather than just making metas efficient or free. Might as well just remove the metas from the game then, and have them auto apply all the time to all casters. Would at least free up some feats. I like that there is a tactical decision to be made as to whether or not to have them on.

Edit: I'll make one exception, and that is heighten. It seems to me that effect should just kind of happen by itself, and not cost the use of a meta. That's just my feeling and in no way relates to official rules or the like.
I have all enhancements that reduce the cost of maximize, heighten and empower, and i use an item when is available for the level (now a lot of this type of items are missed or outdated... use glaciar gloves on epics? seriously?), but the cost is prohibitive anyway.

You're thinking with the old mentality, when enemies had not so many hit points and metamagic served to get spikes of high damage. This is not true anymore, metamagic is not an increment of damage as nice in relation to the hps of enemies. Moreover, now metamagic is *required*. It is no longer a luxury. Now it's a necessity. To return to the old mentality we would have to return to the enemies with a more reasonable amount of hps... and it seems unlikely to happen.

[FestusHood]

I am with anyone who says that investing into DCs should be worth it when comparing it to shiradis. The first change I would make would be to give nerve venom a DC.
But calling this a bad change just because it might have a positive impact on a "broken" destiny is stupid. Again it should have been that way in the first place.
Also correct me if I'm wrong but afaik there ways to get caster levels through enhancements and gear anyway so the impact this has on shiradis wouldn't even be that high. Druids and Artis probably benefit the most (not sure if Bard healing spells reach the max caster level without this buff).

If nerve venom had a dc that could be built for, it would destroy the ability for ranged characters using that destiny. They would never be able to have a working dc for it.

If they came up with some arbitrary static number, what would that number be? If it was a meaningful number, you end up with it working all the time in easy content and never in high level stuff.

You could go the other way, and make it super high, like the 90 dc they put on those aoe effects with the temple of elemental evil weapons. I guess that was easier than just removing the dc effect completely, but for all current content, that's likely to be no fail all the time.

[FestusHood]

I have all enhancements that reduce the cost of maximize, heighten and empower, and i use an item when is available for the level (now a lot of this type of items are missed or outdated... use glaciar gloves on epics? seriously?), but the cost is prohibitive anyway.

You're thinking with the old mentality, when enemies had not so many hit points and metamagic served to get spikes of high damage. This is not true anymore, metamagic is not an increment of damage as nice in relation to the hps of enemies. Moreover, now metamagic is *required*. It is no longer a luxury. Now it's a necessity. To return to the old mentality we would have to return to the enemies with a more reasonable amount of hps... and it seems unlikely to happen.

Or they could just change the base power of the spells so that they scale in epic, the same way they did with melee and ranged power. If they raised the base power enough then metamagics would not be a necessity, they would still be a luxury. Needing to have them on all the time is the problem, not how much they cost in my view.

How they go about changing the base power of spells is debatable for sure.

[davmuzl]

If nerve venom had a dc that could be built for, it would destroy the ability for ranged characters using that destiny. They would never be able to have a working dc for it.

If they came up with some arbitrary static number, what would that number be? If it was a meaningful number, you end up with it working all the time in easy content and never in high level stuff.

You could go the other way, and make it super high, like the 90 dc they put on those aoe effects with the temple of elemental evil weapons. I guess that was easier than just removing the dc effect completely, but for all current content, that's likely to be no fail all the time.

Actually if it was simply linked to a stat it wouldn't destroy it for ranged. Could go with wis because that's in the tree already. And yes that would mean that monkchers have an advantage, but since changes to ranged are hopefully coming soon anyway that could be what monkchers are better at than others. This is not what I would call a perfect solution, but it looks to me like it would at least give some options for balancing ranged attacks and at the same time means that shiradi casters have something to invest into.

[IBCrabin]

Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)

These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


To have what you proposed work, there has to tweak and changes to other part of the game as well.

The change to caster level to epic level is a good start to make leveling ED and ePL more enjoyable.

From there you will have to change how magic missile chain missile, and force missile work. Instead of shiradi having a chance to proc on every missile, have to make shiradi proc once on spell cast and increase the damage and chance of the proc.


Make universal spell power the way you have setup with melee and range spell power. Part of the power is given each epic level and the other part is epic destinies.

Have a % of reduce spell point cost implemented into epic character level. 3% every epic level all the way to 30% at level 30?

Can also consider doing a split of spell point cost reduction between epic character level and certain epic destinies like Exalted angel, draconic, and magister perhaps? 10% from epic character level and 20% for being in draconic, magister and exalted?

This is for spells and not sla.

[Iriale]

Or they could just change the base power of the spells so that they scale in epic, the same way they did with melee and ranged power. If they raised the base power enough then metamagics would not be a necessity, they would still be a luxury. Needing to have them on all the time is the problem, not how much they cost in my view.

How they go about changing the base power of spells is debatable for sure.
Change the base power of spells is more drastic (and difficult to implement) change, but this is not the question. Do you know why maximize and empower never will be a high spike damage on epics, as they are now? Because these feats give spellpower in an additive way. For high spikes we need multiplicative, not additive. Too, the spellpower that they add is not so high (150 and 75) for get a high spike. Metamagic feats, on their current form, are victims of the high stat inflation of epics. So, or their cost is reduced and we can use them often, or their benefit needs to be revisited, and probably go back to the old (very old lol) concept of metamagic multiplicative.

if the basic power of the spells is increased, and the feats still give an additive and fixed value (relatively low for today epic standards) the only thing that will happen is that people will be happy with the base spell and will ignore the metamagic feats, considering they have no usefulness for their (very high) cost.

And if I'm asking for a more stable use of those feats rather than a change to a multiplicative value is because, frankly, I consider it less power creep.

[Aelonwy]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.


Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.

I like this and feel this is the way it should have been from the start.



New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

I'm torn on this, its an easy choice for non-DC casters, but its a painful feat tax for those who don't have enough feats as it is to deal with all the things required of a caster. You do understand that these would not be considered optional feats by most builds but rather mandatory? Right? Could we not make one of these an epic destiny feat and include the other 2% at a time per epic level or maybe just 1% per epic level? That way casters get a small dps bump per epic level but there is also a feat option for a more tangible and measurable dps increase in the higher epic levels. Still an obvious even mandatory choice for a non-DC caster, but possible for a DC caster to fit in one of these with less aggravation.

I agree with previous posters that spell point cost mitigation is more of an issue, especially with all of the metas increasing the cost of spell points to cast in order to be effective at either overcoming the enemy's saves (heighten), enormous godly amount of HP on anything epic (empower/maximize), or massive damage (quicken). And casters are still more resource dependent than melees especially with the advent of so many self-healing options for melee. I know this was done to reflect meta'd spells taking up a higher spell slot in PnP but how about melee feats costing melees HP in order for them to be more effective? No? I didn't think so. =P For a caster as far as DCs and SR go its either pass or fail, you either hit the target number or you deal no or reduced dmg/fail at the CC or instakill and waste resources. A melee's resources are his HP and his weapon durability, how would it be if every time they miss in combat they loose a little of that? NO? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Other examples of the disparity of function?
I appreciate that Favored Soul, Sorcerer, bard, and soon Warlock need to see a trainer to change spells because it is so difficult for them to change spells in PnP (if at all)
but you must see how that can be an aggravation. I mean what if we told a melee, this boss or half the mobs in the quest are immune to all your weapons but hey your stuck with those six weapons and in order to change to a new one you need to pay x plat and wait 3 days to choose another. Yeah, that would go over well.

I'm not actually saying this should be changed, but I am saying that this should be kept in mind, there is a massive disparity in the effectiveness and ease of build, and ease of resource management between a first life melee and a first life caster.

[Thar]

As stated, this would not be touching maximum caster levels. That's something we might look at in the future but not for this change, which is mostly moving the existing buffs from Epic Destinies into Epic Levels, which seems like a clear win at this time.

it is an improvement but it won't make many spells better due to the spell cap as mentioned. it's barely useful to use anything other than epic spells at end game with sla's in between. DC spells won't be better and damage spells almost always have a cap. Even an epic +1 to spell level to fireball won't break anything. it's max 8 d6 being added to the spell which is still costly compared to sla. adding 8d4 to burning hands won't make it uber. it should apply to all, spell cap or not, although i'm sure that is a coding mess.

To make the spell casting destinies relevant with this change perhaps it is appropriate to add spellpower to those removed caster level increases to a) keep a bonus for those areas that was originally balanced for and B) to make these caster destinies slightly better the same way the melee and ranged power was adjusted throughout the spheres. ~5 spell power per level isn't going to break anything for the caster destines in divine, arcane spheres.

[rehakp]

.... It only costs that much if you are not using anything, enhancements or gear to lower the cost.

It makes perfect sense to me that using metamagics is not efficient. It's sort of like turning on the turbocharger for a bit. It's not supposed to raise efficiency, just max power.
......


Yeah i know that. But even if you "waste" alot all the enhancements and gear slots it stil is inefficient. It was sort of OK before spellpower, meelee power and inflated HP. But today you have 2 options and none of them is nice. 1.) Cast nonmeted spells and be supergimp compared to (resource free) meelee swinging and cleaving. 2.) Turn on metas and still be gimp compared to (resource free) meelee swinging and cleaving .. but hey burn you mana 3x faster so you can cast masters touch 3x sooner, and actually do some (meelee) DPS.
It was OK when the option was 1.) do some DPS and conserve resource 2.) Do big damage and burn resources fast.
But its stupid if the otions are 1.) do joking damage and conserve resources 2.) Do joking damage x 1,3 and burn those resources.

[Iriale]

Yeah i know that. But even if you "waste" alot all the enhancements and gear slots it stil is inefficient. It was sort of OK before spellpower, meelee power and inflated HP. But today you have 2 options and none of them is nice. 1.) Cast nonmeted spells and be supergimp compared to (resource free) meelee swinging and cleaving. 2.) Turn on metas and still be gimp compared to (resource free) meelee swinging and cleaving .. but hey burn you mana 3x faster so you can cast masters touch 3x sooner, and actually do some (meelee) DPS.
It was OK when the option was 1.) do some DPS and conserve resource 2.) Do big damage and burn resources fast.
But its stupid if the otions are 1.) do joking damage and conserve resources 2.) Do joking damage x 1,3 and burn those resources.
good explanation :)

[MadCookieQueen]

You're damned right I don't want make a trade off. It is insanely stupid that casters should have to give up ANYTHING to gain a pittance more damage considering the god-mode you made barbs, pallies, bards, and mechanics.

Please tell me what they traded off for their insane power increases?

Before it gets lost....this needs an answer.

[davmuzl]

Another idea that probably nobody is going to like... Give casters the crit dmg bonus basically for free (wouldn't destinies be missing something in that spot anyway?) and make it so spells only crit when the enemy fails the save.

[Blackheartox]

Before it gets lost....this needs an answer.


I tried to think hard of a tradeoff and i actually found a very good one.

The ammount of boredom you feel when playing a bard/barb/palie/xbow due to demolishing content makes you log less and less and play less and less, and thus this is actually less income to turbine since you dont need to buy store stuff to increase your power or survival (pots cakes tomes, whatever).

(bit sarcasm is needed)

[FestusHood]

Change the base power of spells is more drastic (and difficult to implement) change, but this is not the question. Do you know why maximize and empower never will be a high spike damage on epics, as they are now? Because these feats give spellpower in an additive way. For high spikes we need multiplicative, not additive. Too, the spellpower that they add is not so high (150 and 75) for get a high spike. Metamagic feats, on their current form, are victims of the high stat inflation of epics. So, or their cost is reduced and we can use them often, or their benefit needs to be revisited, and probably go back to the old (very old lol) concept of metamagic multiplicative.

if the basic power of the spells is increased, and the feats still give an additive and fixed value (relatively low for today epic standards) the only thing that will happen is that people will be happy with the base spell and will ignore the metamagic feats, considering they have no usefulness for their (very high) cost.

And if I'm asking for a more stable use of those feats rather than a change to a multiplicative value is because, frankly, I consider it less power creep.

The spell crit multiplier that was suggested in the op would be such a multiplicative increase. A lot of people have advocated just adding spell power but that isn't my idea. I'm fully on board with the idea of increasing the critical multiplier. That actually wouldn't be that much work for them to do since they wouldn't have to do it on a spell by spell basis.

As for how valuable maximize is, yes the relative value diminishes somewhat when you get higher spell power. Melee power works the same way. It boosts the base damage, but once you get a bunch of it, like when you are blitzing, it's hard to really notice the difference if you add another 10. Still, maximize is taken by every damage caster so it's worth having. You yourself have said that it makes enough of a difference that if you could leave it on all the time things might be ok.

Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing if taking maximize was an option rather than a necessity.

[FestusHood]

Another idea that probably nobody is going to like... Give casters the crit dmg bonus basically for free (wouldn't destinies be missing something in that spot anyway?) and make it so spells only crit when the enemy fails the save.

I think a lot of players would like that idea, including me. The main gripe that people are having with the suggestion in the op is that it costs feats.

For people that dislike the idea of it making destiny sla's too powerful, i wonder if it would be possible to make it only work on actual spells? Like spells that appear in an actual heroic spellbook, or their sla versions.

[Thar]

Improved Critical is clearly the most overpowered feat in DDO. There is roughly 0.0% chance that we will be trying to make all feats as powerful as Improved Critical.

(tm).

I think while IC is almost mandatory on a melee, you need to put cleave/supreme cleave at an equal level as AOE damage exponentally increases dps output with multiple mobs. I'd add whirlwind, but only for monks since the animation is 2x as long with weapons and costs 3 feats to get.

[IronClan]

It's clear this is a contentious issue, so we aren't likely to move quickly on it. The main thrust of these discussions seems to be, "Wait, hold on...", so, OK!

Did you count up various posts? or just scimming and letting selection bias enter into it? seems like positive outweights negative by a good bit. But sure slow down and lets hash it out.

1) remove or raise Heroic spell damage caps problem mostly solved
2) increase DPS as needed via Multiplier or more available crit % (how about returning Generic Spell lore to it's pre-nerf usefulness level?)

People who don't want change never like any changes, if you listen to baseless objections you'll be paralyzed. A lot of these objections are baseless:



You have the full ****** DC casters who want their cake and their crit multiplier too and do not want to spend their great stat feat slots on spell crits.
You have people who mostly are conjuring up irrelevant boogieman about caster levels being divorced from ED's
You have people who want no changes period ever (see the Power creepers)
You have a lot of people who responded positively with or without minor reservations and suggestions for better implementation


Who knows perhaps my selection bias is coloring things, and I see more positive responses than negative (one things for sure the negative posts are coming from the same group of people over and over) Do a real polling for feedback, remove multiple posts by the same posters where they don't offer a new thought, then compare percentages who had real objections that are legitimate, to those who want all or some of these improvements.

I can't fathom why anyone who plays casters would want caster levels to stay tied to ED, Off ED's suck bad enough to be in, why make it worse? A little adjustment has to happen when things change, like sacrificing 5 Spell Penn at level 20 where everyone plows through content like a joke anyway, for +3 at Cap and eventually +5 at cap... What an incredibly narrow way to view the game! The worst part is seeing people with this massively narrow filter shout down an Idea, It's Fascinate/Enthrall all over again... Some people who are suspicious worry they're getting taken advantage of or losing something, and they automatically reject good ideas over baseless fears or COMPLETELY unimportant fears like losing 5 spell penn at level 20 because they have ED's all filled already.

Tell you what; What those people SHOULD be worried about is having their contention that they CAN'T POSSIBLY ACCEPT LOSING 100% use of full ED's at level 20, turn into a change to ED's so that they do not allow full power at level 20... that's what they should fear, in fact it should make them pipe down about losing 5 spell penn LOL.

Speaking of which: how about we change ED's so you can only use 5 points of spending and 1 core per epic level from 20? NO ONE should get 5 caster levels the moment they get to 20 just because they filled ED's on previous lives. Level 20 to 25 is literally a complete Joke to get through because you have 100% use of your ED's from 20. This change would get you full ED points availability at level 25, and help 20 through 24 scale at least a TINY bit. It should never have worked the way it does and now some people are using that poor design to demand that a good change not be implemented. :rolleyes: You should no more have full ED access at 20 than we should let everyone use their ML28 Thunderforged weapons at 20. Yum Mortal Fear in content where mobs fall over and die at the mere sight of you already LOL.

The truth is those caster levels are mostly totally misunderstood by the player base, most people doing the fear mongering don't realize they are probably capped already even without them at least on most spells with most casters.

There also appear to be people who think Caster level from ED raises Destiny SLA's damage dice (Character level does this in the cases I am aware of, such as Draconic Energy Burst)

Until the real change that's needed is put in (raising ineffective heroic Elemental damage caps so that they can scale up and do damage in amounts that justify using SP to cast them, caster levels in ED or not in ED will have little effect.

Please don't back burner this just because some people are doing the equivalent of "I'm not sure why but I know I dislike this". Slowing down is fine, and probably best.

[Vargouille]

To clarify some thoughts: We're not outright abandoning (or committing to) any of the proposed changes. However, it's clear these aren't widely popular, "no-brainer" changes that we can simply put into DDO. The discussion should and will continue; albeit at a slower rate, and since this is definitely not targeted for Update 26, in the near future we'll be focusing more on Update 26.

The time frame in my mind is "can we and should do this today or this week", and the answer to that is "no". I'm sure different people have their own thoughts on "not right now" means, and my mind is focused on extremely near term goals and deadlines, which I'm probably expressing poorly.

If there had been wide support and few points of contention (aka: legitimate things we should consider), we would have considered moving faster on changes. But there's quite a lot of feedback to consider, and it's worth exploring more options before touching anything (which has both positive and negative aspects).

[Silverleafeon]

Hi Varg,

Loved the video with you and Steel.

Failed brought up last year, about this topic of applying epic levels as caster levels.

I said then, it would unbalance the whole epic destiny system.

That is why I said, the hybrid method of raising ED levels to 10 would not do that.

Epic levels 1 thru 5 = everything is normal.

Add Epic Destiny Levels to earn the same xp curve, this grants more xp to earn.

Leave innates alone (but Magistar and Draconic are improperly written).

Each ED level 6 and above earns you 4 more points to spend in the tree.

However these points and resulting caster levels do not apply unless the toon's epic level is equal to or greater than the already earned ED level.

Reincarnation of any kind resets the excess points in the tree.

This keeps the current balance but brings the game into the increasing level cap of 30.

Is it the best plan? I have no idea, no body want to communicate about it or consider it...why don't you ask them, then they might listen. But last years PC forums will show you there already was a warning that Epic Levels = Caster levels could be less than an easy sell.


I very much appreciate your communicating with us, please continue to do so.

Cheers,
Silver

[ghtzxc]

First of all, I want to say thank you for taking the time and thought and putting it out on your weekend. I really appreciate your dedication.

As for the changes, there will be people complaining no matter if the changes are small or large. However, I have played other MMO's and in my opinion and experience I seem to see that smaller changes touching on a broader scope work better in terms of balancing the game. (ie. None-few-many small changes for a wide array of skills in enhancement trees for many classes.)
Your proposal seems to mirror this kind of balance update in it's scope and size of changes. (Obviously new content, classes, etc., will be large changes.)

I definitely like the idea of caster levels being tied to epic levels instead of destinies. I think it achieves the goal of allowing more flexibility and possibilities for builds.

I support the idea of more useful feats for dps casters in epic levels as well but I'm wary of continued powercreep on the players side without anything to match for the enemies as well.
Perhaps this would be another discussion all together but maybe you could clarify: Do you think dps casters in general need a buff vs mobs/content?
A needed balance I can see but I'm against having DDO become easier and easier while offering less challenge/grouping experiences.

For your proposed feats I would like to point out that 20% extra crit damage does favor some builds more than others and so depending on what your aim is for this proposal I might suggest mixing +spell critical damage with something else such as % critical chance and reducing the values for both.
Ex.
Currently proposed: 33% crit (8 enhancement + 20 item + 5 base) * 40% = 13.2% dps increase, while 62% (16 enhancement + 22 item + 5 base + 10 empyrean magic + 9 energy criticals) * 40% = 24.8% dps increase.
If feat was instead: +5% crit chance and +15% crit damage
Then: 43% crit * 30% = 12.9% dps increase, with 72% * 30% = 21.6% dps increase on the other end of the crit spectrum. (obviously 62% is an extreme example, works on limited types of spells, and may have other drawbacks; it's merely to illustrate a point)

This is just an example but I think you can see how the alternate proposal would cap the potential dps gain by -3.2% (24.8-21.6) with more specialized crit builds while affecting less specialized builds very little: -0.3% (13.2-12.9). Again the numbers may not seem very significant here but it's just an example.
The alternate feat example also caps the potential dps gain at a lower level, which could serve as another point of balance.

I'm not against it, just pointing it out.
Please do as you see fit =)

To summarize:
1. Thank you, whatever comes.
2. Yes to caster levels tied to epic levels intead of destinies.
3. Hesitant on feats: Yes to BALANCE. No to powercreep. Do as you see fit and/or with possible changes to feats.

[redoubt]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.

In the past 6 months I've leveled both DC wizards and DPS sorcs. The DC wizard is more difficult and has much more trouble with named/bosses. The DPS sorc gathered mobs and used AOE damage on everything. AOE even works on bosses. The DC wizard drinks SP potions to kill bosses. That is pretty significant.

So I am glad you are looking at ways to improve damage and that you are aware that DC is in a tricky place right now.




Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.

I don't mind you moving caster level to the epic levels instead of destiny. I'd go one further an scale it to the number of caster levels you have:

20 sorc = 10 additional sorc levels at level 30.
18 sorc/pali = 9 additional sorc level at level 30.
10 sorc/10 wizard = 5 additional sorc levels and 5 additional wizard levels at level 30.


Next, put +maximum caster level into the ED cores.



New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

The feats are needed for DC casters. I'm not sure they are needed for the current DPS casters. That said, the DPS casters are feat tight already, so this becomes a tradeoff for them. The DC casters will likely have to give up Spell Focus or Spell Pen feats to take these.

[Gljosh]

Currently DDO has 55 spells with a max caster level of 15 or less, 22 between 15 and 20, 8 with MCL of 25, and 9 with a MCL between 30 and 40. Now a Sorc "could" add 11 to this number (Savant Core, ToD set, Epic Destiny Draconic (Twist) and Epic Destiny Magister). "Theses numbers are from the ddo wiki so might not be perfectly accurate".

Adding Magical Damage (just damage and not DCs) can be done multiple ways, more Spell Power (Skill Points, Equipment, Implement, Skill Enhancements, Enhancement Trees), more Spell Crit Chance (Feats, Lore Items, Insight, Artifact, Enhancement Trees), more Spell Crit Damage (I am unaware of ways to boost this), or higher max caster levels (Unique Items, Enhancement Trees)

What if you augmented the current Caster Related Feats (Metamagics {8}, Spell Pen {3}, Spell Focus {3}, and/or Magical Training/Mental Toughness Feats {4})? When the Melee power pass happened, Melee Power got added to existing weapon styles and it got added to each Epic Level and some got added to most Epic Destinies. Oh, and bump the Epic Spell Power Feats to 30 points

Quick Example
Each Epic Level adds 3 Universal Spell Power- Total +24 (+30 in the future)
Each Even Epic Level increases Caster Level +1 (keep the +1s in the Epic Destinies as well) - Total +4 (+5 in the future) to +9/10 with the right Epic Destiny
Spell Focus Adds A Spell Critical Chance for that School (+1, +1, +2-stacking-Total +4)
Each Metamagic adds 3 USP-Total +24
Spell Penetration adds USP (+3, +6, +10-Total)
Mental Toughness adds 2 USP maybe add Crit Damage (5, 10, 20-total) here

So a caster with 3 metamagics (Quicken, Max, Emp), Magical Training, and all 3 Mental Toughness Feats at level 28 would another 39 Spell power and maybe +20% Crit Damage. Sure this wold make the Mental Toughness Tree much more desirable (USP, SP, Crit, and Crit damage).

[IronClan]

Hi Varg,

Loved the video with you and Steel.

Failed brought up last year, about this topic of applying epic levels as caster levels.

I said then, it would unbalance the whole epic destiny system.

That is why I said, the hybrid method of raising ED levels to 10 would not do that.

Epic levels 1 thru 5 = everything is normal.

Add Epic Destiny Levels to earn the same xp curve, this grants more xp to earn.

Leave innates alone (but Magistar and Draconic are improperly written).

Each ED level 6 and above earns you 4 more points to spend in the tree.

However these points and resulting caster levels do not apply unless the toon's epic level is equal to or greater than the already earned ED level.

Reincarnation of any kind resets the excess points in the tree.

This keeps the current balance but brings the game into the increasing level cap of 30.

Is it the best plan? I have no idea, no body want to communicate about it or consider it...why don't you ask them, then they might listen. But last years PC forums will show you there already was a warning that Epic Levels = Caster levels could be less than an easy sell.


I very much appreciate your communicating with us, please continue to do so.

Cheers,
Silver

With all due respect Silver, currently (without higher damage caps on heroic elemental spells) changing caster levels out of ED's and into Epic levels would have negligible effect, a few more spell penn at higher level and a few less at lower level where we plow thought content in hours and are back to 25+ in an evening anyway.

I do think they should rework ED's so they don't give full power at level 20... the current Expectation by the player base is clearly having a negative impact on new designs. A Bad design enforcing more bad design...

[dunklezhan]

To clarify some thoughts: We're not outright abandoning (or committing to) any of the proposed changes. However, it's clear these aren't widely popular, "no-brainer" changes that we can simply put into DDO. The discussion should and will continue; albeit at a slower rate, and since this is definitely not targeted for Update 26, in the near future we'll be focusing more on Update 26.

The time frame in my mind is "can we and should do this today or this week", and the answer to that is "no". I'm sure different people have their own thoughts on "not right now" means, and my mind is focused on extremely near term goals and deadlines, which I'm probably expressing poorly.

If there had been wide support and few points of contention (aka: legitimate things we should consider), we would have considered moving faster on changes. But there's quite a lot of feedback to consider, and it's worth exploring more options before touching anything (which has both positive and negative aspects).

+1 (or it would be, if I didn't need to spread some around first) for freakin' top notch engagement man. More of this, not less, even if it does generate contention.

[DevHead]

Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I




First of all, I very much appreciate the attention this is being given; I've not enjoyed my caster as much in epic as I did in heroic. I may have about 4k SP, but it still never felt like enough.

To your proposals, I do not think it is the best route, though perhaps something similar would be good. As you referenced in your original post, the concept of DCs are tricky and that's precisely the biggest issue, I think; if your spells don't land then the spell crit doesn't matter so much. However, I think DCs should be approached via class, enhancements, and EDs, so I'll leave those for that conversation when you guys decide to bring it up. Just please keep them in mind when making all changes for casters.

Instead of your proposal, I would recommend a small boost to spell crit chance and damage per epic level. Something like 1-2% chance and 3-4% damage per level, so at 30 it'd be 10-20% chance and 30-40% damage. If you want to have feats for spell crit damage, make those instead increase the multiplier of the spell damage. Perhaps a combination of the two. A boost to the multiplier is quite a boon so it should require the use of a feat.

[Blackheartox]

To clarify some thoughts: We're not outright abandoning (or committing to) any of the proposed changes. However, it's clear these aren't widely popular, "no-brainer" changes that we can simply put into DDO. The discussion should and will continue; albeit at a slower rate, and since this is definitely not targeted for Update 26, in the near future we'll be focusing more on Update 26.

The time frame in my mind is "can we and should do this today or this week", and the answer to that is "no". I'm sure different people have their own thoughts on "not right now" means, and my mind is focused on extremely near term goals and deadlines, which I'm probably expressing poorly.

If there had been wide support and few points of contention (aka: legitimate things we should consider), we would have considered moving faster on changes. But there's quite a lot of feedback to consider, and it's worth exploring more options before touching anything (which has both positive and negative aspects).

Tnx varq, this change would be to messy and a bandaid that would fix nothing, but bring more issues later on.

Make casting fun, with build diverstity, and take your time to make it right, but give us proposals from time to time.
As said, concept was basically ok, but idea how to implement it wasnt.

[Enoach]

To clarify some thoughts: We're not outright abandoning (or committing to) any of the proposed changes. However, it's clear these aren't widely popular, "no-brainer" changes that we can simply put into DDO. The discussion should and will continue; albeit at a slower rate, and since this is definitely not targeted for Update 26, in the near future we'll be focusing more on Update 26.

The time frame in my mind is "can we and should do this today or this week", and the answer to that is "no". I'm sure different people have their own thoughts on "not right now" means, and my mind is focused on extremely near term goals and deadlines, which I'm probably expressing poorly.

If there had been wide support and few points of contention (aka: legitimate things we should consider), we would have considered moving faster on changes. But there's quite a lot of feedback to consider, and it's worth exploring more options before touching anything (which has both positive and negative aspects).

I want to thank you for giving this the time it needs to work on the best solution to this problem and not trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

[fangblackhawk]

To clarify some thoughts: We're not outright abandoning (or committing to) any of the proposed changes. However, it's clear these aren't widely popular, "no-brainer" changes that we can simply put into DDO. The discussion should and will continue; albeit at a slower rate, and since this is definitely not targeted for Update 26, in the near future we'll be focusing more on Update 26.

The time frame in my mind is "can we and should do this today or this week", and the answer to that is "no". I'm sure different people have their own thoughts on "not right now" means, and my mind is focused on extremely near term goals and deadlines, which I'm probably expressing poorly.

If there had been wide support and few points of contention (aka: legitimate things we should consider), we would have considered moving faster on changes. But there's quite a lot of feedback to consider, and it's worth exploring more options before touching anything (which has both positive and negative aspects).

while as a caster focused player i can gladly wait for this to be done right...... but casting at the same lvl at 30 i am at 20 with only 2 or 3 new spells that i had to spend feats on does not seem tempting with what i see on live atm ..... as the only way to effectively cast like you do b4 lvl 25 is to min max every thing leaving you too weak in many areas for the game varity we have thats makes this a great game

what if you comprimise and leave the caster levels in the eds making then special still but every other epic level or lvls 26-30 gave caster levels and a special feat we could take at 30 that added +5 max casterlevels to all spells... and maybe some dcs

or maybe add an option to take epic level caster instead of the current just epic level common and allow any combination of epic levels you like between the two "classes"

[Failedlegend]

a few points of contention (aka: legitimate things we should consider)

Varg do you consider it "legitimate" that you can gain access to the entirety of an ED at Lvl 20 making actual Epic levels pretty meaningless.

Almost ALL the complaints are from people claiming they NEED +5 DC at Lvl 20. Playing devil's advocate for a sec this mean's one of two things.

1. The Drow in Epic MOTU are not balanced correctly for Lvl 20 content
2. Drow are MEANT to be foils to DC based casters forcing them to change up tactics just like how ROgues have to deal with SA immune creatures, Savants have to deal creatures immune/healed by their element, etc. etc. etc.

or you know getting full access to EDs @ Lvl 20 is ridiculous and needs to be changed (similar to heroic levels...gain X Epic AP per level and X core every other Level) so we may as well divorce Caster levels from Epic destinies now.

As for the limiting ED growth, keep the XP gain as is but limit access to AP/Cores based on the following. This only happens assuming you have enough XP in your active destiny...being Lvl 24 doesn't auto-magically grant you Rank 2 and 12 AP. It's only intended as a Limiter.

Pre-Lvl 30

20 ED Rank 0, 4 AP
22 ED Rank 1, 4 AP
24 ED Rank 2, 4 AP
26 ED Rank 3, 4 AP
27 ED Rank 4, 4 AP
28 ED Rank 5, 4 AP


Post Lvl 30

20 ED Rank 0, 4 AP
22 ED Rank 1, 4 AP
24 ED Rank 2, 4 AP
26 ED Rank 3, 4 AP
28 ED Rank 4, 4 AP
30 ED Rank 5, 4 AP


This is frankly how it should have been to start and I said as much when I first saw EDs. Same reason it would be ridiculous to Have 80 Heroic AP @ Lvl 1.

Seriously though Varg, people are ALWAYS going to complain this is a BUFF (currently +3 CL and soon to be +5 CL) and people are crying NERF.

Sidenote: Varg I know you've already seen This (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461032-A-dumb-idea-for-making-ability-spell-DCs-more-forgiving) thread about rejigging the DC formula but I think it's relevant to bring it up.

[Thar]

Speaking of which: how about we change ED's so you can only use 5 points of spending and 1 core per epic level from 20? NO ONE should get 5 caster levels the moment they get to 20 just because they filled ED's on previous lives. Level 20 to 25 is literally a complete Joke to get through because you have 100% use of your ED's from 20. This change would get you full ED points availability at level 25, and help 20 through 24 scale at least a TINY bit. It should never have worked the way it does and now some people are using that poor design to demand that a good change not be implemented. :rolleyes: You should no more have full ED access at 20 than we should let everyone use their ML28 Thunderforged weapons at 20. Yum Mortal Fear in content where mobs fall over and die at the mere sight of you already LOL.



If you have your destiny filled up you most certainly should get 5 caster levels at 20. You did the work just like a fighter will get the full melee power for each 6 levels in the destiny. Casters should work the same. Sad to see coming from PC. Not only would this be a huge coding change better spent finishing class rebalancing it is a slap in the face to those that have filled up their destiny's and ETR'ing. no nerfs...

the epic quests at 21/22 are sometimes just as nasty as 25.

[Thar]

Varg do you consider it "legitimate" that you can gain access to the entirety of an ED at Lvl 20 making actual Epic levels pretty meaningless.

Almost ALL the complaints are from people claiming they NEED +5 DC at Lvl 20. Playing devil's advocate for a sec this mean's one of two things.

1. The Drow in Epic MOTU are not balanced correctly for Lvl 20 content
2. Drow are MEANT to be foils to DC based casters forcing them to change up tactics just like how ROgues have to deal with SA immune creatures, Savants have to deal creatures immune/healed by their element, etc. etc. etc.

or you know getting full access to EDs @ Lvl 20 is ridiculous and needs to be changed (similar to heroic levels...gain X Epic AP per level and X core every other Level) so we may as well divorce Caster levels from Epic destinies now.

As for the limiting ED growth, keep the XP gain as is but limit access to AP/Cores based on the following. This only happens assuming you have enough XP in your active destiny...being Lvl 24 doesn't auto-magically grant you Rank 2 and 12 AP. It's only intended as a Limiter.

Pre-Lvl 30

20 ED Rank 0, 4 AP
22 ED Rank 1, 4 AP
24 ED Rank 2, 4 AP
26 ED Rank 3, 4 AP
27 ED Rank 4, 4 AP
28 ED Rank 5, 4 AP


Post Lvl 30

20 ED Rank 0, 4 AP
22 ED Rank 1, 4 AP
24 ED Rank 2, 4 AP
26 ED Rank 3, 4 AP
28 ED Rank 4, 4 AP
30 ED Rank 5, 4 AP


This is frankly how it should have been to start and I said as much when I first saw EDs. Same reason it would be ridiculous to Have 80 Heroic AP @ Lvl 1.

Seriously though Varg, people are ALWAYS going to complain this is a BUFF (currently +3 CL and soon to be +5 CL) and people are crying NERF.

Sidenote: Varg I know you've already seen This (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461032-A-dumb-idea-for-making-ability-spell-DCs-more-forgiving) thread about rejigging the DC formula but I think it's relevant to bring it up.

so lvl 20/21 melee shouldn't have access to full ed ie blitz? wow that would cause some TR/ETR outrage.. Casters need to be handled the same. and that would be a huge nerf that the players will not put up with.

[slarden]

With all due respect Silver, currently (without higher damage caps on heroic elemental spells) changing caster levels out of ED's and into Epic levels would have negligible effect, a few more spell penn at higher level and a few less at lower level where we plow thought content in hours and are back to 25+ in an evening anyway.


The issue would be a build like sorc 10 wizard 6 fvs 4 in Shiradi.

3 caster levels are gained from the 4th tier AoV. 8 levels are gained from epic levels so now a Shiradi caster is spamming MM and Chain Missle SLAs as if they were level 17 and sorc SLAs are being spammed as if they were level 21.

The way it currently is with this build is MM/CM would be level 9 and sorc SLAs would be level 13. That's a sizable power boost on top of the 2 crit feats that can easily be fit in with a Shiradi build - for virtually no trade-off since Shiradis only need a few feats for their build - the rest is all discretionary stuff like toughness, mental toughness, etc.

The comparison to a DC caster is only because there is little room for feat diversity so it basically means the opportunity cost for a DC caster is much higher than a dc-dumping nuker, shiradi or light spammer.

This just needs to be factored in when weighing it from a balance perspective. Certain builds get helped out significantly more than others.

[Failedlegend]

Tnx varq, this change would be to messy

No it really wouldn't it would be a start to the clean the mess caused by being able to have maxed out EDs @ Lvl 20.



Make casting fun, with build diverstity


You mean like moving caster levels from EDs to Epic levels so that Casters can chose from more EDs allowing for greater build diversity AND causing Epic levels to matter.


If you have your destiny filled up you most certainly should get 5 caster levels at 20. You did the work.

Well I've TR'd several times should I get 80AP at heroic Lvl 1, no I shouldn't. Access to EDs should be limited by your Epic Level

Keep the XP gain as is but limit access to AP/Cores based on the following. This only happens assuming you have enough XP in your active destiny...being Lvl 24 doesn't auto-magically grant you Rank 2 and 12 AP. It's only intended as a Limiter.

Pre-Lvl 30

20 ED Rank 0, 4 AP
22 ED Rank 1, 4 AP
24 ED Rank 2, 4 AP
26 ED Rank 3, 4 AP
27 ED Rank 4, 4 AP
28 ED Rank 5, 4 AP


Post Lvl 30

20 ED Rank 0, 4 AP
22 ED Rank 1, 4 AP
24 ED Rank 2, 4 AP
26 ED Rank 3, 4 AP
28 ED Rank 4, 4 AP
30 ED Rank 5, 4 AP


NO NERFS

Currently you get +5 CL from EDs, this is not a Nerf at Lvl 28 you'll have +8 and @ 30 you'll have +10. Thats a BUFF (because 8 & 10 are bigger numbers than 5)



the epic quests at 21/22 are sometimes just as nasty as 25.

Than either those 21/22 quest should be toned down OR those 25-28 quests need to be given some more kick. (most likely the latter)


so a lvl 20/21 melee shouldn't have access to full ed ie blitz?

No they shouldn't, just like they didn't the first time they did epics.


Just like a fighter will get the full melee power for each 6 levels in the destiny.

EVERY ED already grants melee and ranged power, this is not true for caster levels. That said I agree with you they should also move Melee/Ranged Power to Epic Levels.

[FestusHood]

Varg do you consider it "legitimate" that you can gain access to the entirety of an ED at Lvl 20 making actual Epic levels pretty meaningless.

Almost ALL the complaints are from people claiming they NEED +5 DC at Lvl 20. Playing devil's advocate for a sec this mean's one of two things.

1. The Drow in Epic MOTU are not balanced correctly for Lvl 20 content
2. Drow are MEANT to be foils to DC based casters forcing them to change up tactics just like how ROgues have to deal with SA immune creatures, Savants have to deal creatures immune/healed by their element, etc. etc. etc.

or you know getting full access to EDs @ Lvl 20 is ridiculous and needs to be changed (similar to heroic levels...gain X Epic AP per level and X core every other Level) so we may as well divorce Caster levels from Epic destinies now.

As for the limiting ED growth, keep the XP gain as is but limit access to AP/Cores based on the following. This only happens assuming you have enough XP in your active destiny...being Lvl 24 doesn't auto-magically grant you Rank 2 and 12 AP. It's only intended as a Limiter.

Pre-Lvl 30

20 ED Rank 0, 4 AP
22 ED Rank 1, 4 AP
24 ED Rank 2, 4 AP
26 ED Rank 3, 4 AP
27 ED Rank 4, 4 AP
28 ED Rank 5, 4 AP


Post Lvl 30

20 ED Rank 0, 4 AP
22 ED Rank 1, 4 AP
24 ED Rank 2, 4 AP
26 ED Rank 3, 4 AP
28 ED Rank 4, 4 AP
30 ED Rank 5, 4 AP


This is frankly how it should have been to start and I said as much when I first saw EDs. Same reason it would be ridiculous to Have 80 Heroic AP @ Lvl 1.

Seriously though Varg, people are ALWAYS going to complain this is a BUFF (currently +3 CL and soon to be +5 CL) and people are crying NERF.

Sidenote: Varg I know you've already seen This (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461032-A-dumb-idea-for-making-ability-spell-DCs-more-forgiving) thread about rejigging the DC formula but I think it's relevant to bring it up.

So you're saying that low level epic content isn't balanced for having epic destinies? The cr ratings of the mobs in epic elite level 20 content are about 10-15 higher than they are in level 20 heroic elite content. If your destines are reset to level 1 at level 21, how is the player supposed to account for that jump? The gear is negligibly better.

Since we're talking specifically about casters in this thread, i don't think most of them would be able to get workable dc's for level 20-21 epic content without destiny help. As far as drow are concerned, sure they are supposed to be a challenge for dc casters. That challenge should not be insurmountable though. Their sr is already high enough that a caster without past lives, even if they make investments in feats and enhancements and gear for spell penetration, will have a rough time ever getting past it.

I had a pure 20 bard that had all the feats, all the enhancements, and gear for spell pen. As soon as i moved out of a destiny that granted caster levels i pretty much lost the ability to pass the spell pen on drow. He had one wizard past life. I think if you invest enough in something it should work. If you're saying that casters shouldn't be able to beat drow sr then who is all of that investment for? Monsters that don't have spell resistance?

[Angelic-council]

With all due respect Silver, currently (without higher damage caps on heroic elemental spells) changing caster levels out of ED's and into Epic levels would have negligible effect, a few more spell penn at higher level and a few less at lower level where we plow thought content in hours and are back to 25+ in an evening anyway.

I do think they should rework ED's so they don't give full power at level 20... the current Expectation by the player base is clearly having a negative impact on new designs. A Bad design enforcing more bad design...

What do you know about design. Your idea is worst than silver. I deeply disappointed that this is coming from a player council. I always said so.

Reworking on EDs so that they don't give full power at lv20 would not only drive people away, but it requires coding and time. But for what reason. Many players worked hard to gain their EDs. Those people should get what they deserve. Normal, along with epic normal was specifically designed for first timers. Hard is for those who got the hang of the quest, and elite is for challengers. People play elite because they want more exp and to maintain their BB. And your idea will backstub veteran players, giving them very hard time dealing with EE (EH), but the real problem is much more serious than just "I can't handle EE anymore".

This thread is about magical damage in epics, and you want to nerf everyone, including casters dramatically with your presented idea.

[Avocado]

To clarify some thoughts: We're not outright abandoning (or committing to) any of the proposed changes. However, it's clear these aren't widely popular, "no-brainer" changes that we can simply put into DDO. The discussion should and will continue; albeit at a slower rate, and since this is definitely not targeted for Update 26, in the near future we'll be focusing more on Update 26.

The time frame in my mind is "can we and should do this today or this week", and the answer to that is "no". I'm sure different people have their own thoughts on "not right now" means, and my mind is focused on extremely near term goals and deadlines, which I'm probably expressing poorly.

If there had been wide support and few points of contention (aka: legitimate things we should consider), we would have considered moving faster on changes. But there's quite a lot of feedback to consider, and it's worth exploring more options before touching anything (which has both positive and negative aspects).

Im not sure why everyone is opposed to the idea of caster levels being removed from EDs. I like the idea only because it allows casters whose most powerful ED doesnt give caster levels (to their class) to get caster levels in epics (does that make sense?). It seems many dont like the idea of losing spell pen for level 20-25. In the true spirit of DDO you get more powerful as you level and CR goes up as you level. Changing it to the OP would make sense. Those obsessed about spell pen will get over it.

Seems many people want more spellpower in epics. I think something like 3-5 per epic level would be sufficient. Also, similar to melee, you can get spell power based on feats you take. Spell focus feats maybe grant 6 spell power total or 6 spell power to the type of focus feat (so necro focus giving necro spell power).

Maybe consider leaving caster levels in EDs but dont limit the ED to a specific type of caster level. So all caster EDs give a +1 caster level per core (for a max of +6) to all spells. This would make all the whinners about not getting +6 spell pen at 20 happy (maybe?). My druid gets no caster levels to my druid spells because exalted angel only gives clr/fvs/pal caster levels, which is lame.

On a side note: If eAmrath is going to be level 30 and mobs are going to be CR 70 on ee then were looking at 80+ SR. I think max is spell pen is 65 if i calculated correctly. You might break through 25% of the mobs SR with that. Not to mention it requires 3 feats, 2 twists, 3 PL wiz and fvs, and to be elf. So maybe take this into consideration when changing caster levels and dealing with spell pen.

[Failedlegend]

So you're saying that low level epic content isn't balanced for having epic destinies? The cr ratings of the mobs in epic elite level 20 content are about 10-15 higher than they are in level 20 heroic elite content. If your destines are reset to level 1 at level 21, how is the player supposed to account for that jump? The gear is negligibly better.

Since we're talking specifically about casters in this thread, i don't think most of them would be able to get workable dc's for level 20-21 epic content without destiny help. As far as drow are concerned, sure they are supposed to be a challenge for dc casters. That challenge should not be insurmountable though. Their sr is already high enough that a caster without past lives, even if they make investments in feats and enhancements and gear for spell penetration, will have a rough time ever getting past it.

I had a pure 20 bard that had all the feats, all the enhancements, and gear for spell pen. As soon as i moved out of a destiny that granted caster levels i pretty much lost the ability to pass the spell pen on drow. He had one wizard past life. I think if you invest enough in something it should work. If you're saying that casters shouldn't be able to beat drow sr then who is all of that investment for? Monsters that don't have spell resistance?

If you truly believe what your saying how do you EVER survive as a first life caster, or when Epics were done at Lvl 20?

[Silverleafeon]

A tip I heard awhile back:

Shirdai procures are a form of SLAs.

Even though you cannot set them to work with metamagics, you can turn ALL your metamagics on, then go back into all your spells to individually turn off those that you cannot afford to use.



;;;;


We should make a nice little graph:

Monster Hit Points vs Spell Power

In it, the the monster line rises dramatically, but the spell power line decreases as the need for mana conservation increases...



llll


To be fair to Varg, when Failed or Iron brought this up last year inside the PC, I might have been the only one (or one of a few) that gave imbalance reason that would result from caster levels = epic levels. Bringing it out in the open as an official post would grant a much clearer definition, as a lot more people pay attention to a Dev than a player. So 1 out of ? (or 2 out of ?) objections -- whatever... I see at least one PC member from last year objecting. Myself, after saying things a dozen times, I get tired of repeating myself.

I have a great of respect for Iron and Failed, they have some great ideas.
So, I posted in their threads, not always agreeing, but definately respecting them.


I am very glad this years PC has more players in it!
We got very low towards the end of the year last year.
Maybe we need a higher concentration of hard core gamers esp Math Gurus in?
Any way, seems like we have good crowd this year, good lucki, and pace yourselves, the second half involves burnout for some...



For my final answer, I go back to:

Lets make Epic Destinies have 10 levels. The levels 6 thru 10 get spent when Epic Level is equal to or greater than earned Epic Destiny levels. The current trees look terribly empty. This would solve higher level DC problems and spell pen problems w/o any real extras. This would give us more xp to earn.

Should I be offering lots of options (such as open the entire upper ED levels at 28?
I am flexible, or does that confuse the Devs?

Is this the right path?
I have no idea, it just makes the most sense to me.


There are so many little quirks in the game such as Shirdai affecting spells like magic missle and Fvs being give Cha for capstone bonuses that are already in the game. But hey whatever...

[slarden]

Im not sure why everyone is opposed to the idea of caster levels being removed from EDs. I like the idea only because it allows casters whose most powerful ED doesnt give caster levels (to their class) to get caster levels in epics (does that make sense?). It seems many dont like the idea of losing spell pen for level 20-25. In the true spirit of DDO you get more powerful as you level and CR goes up as you level. Changing it to the OP would make sense. Those obsessed about spell pen will get over it.

We will see too many 10x 6 wizard 4 favored soul shiradi builds since with this change 6 levels of wizard makes your magic missle and chain missle the equivalent of level 17 vs. level 9 now. That 10x would work with alot of classes and would be treated as caster level 21.

It over-rewards heavy splashing for SLAs since you gain 8 spell levels in every class. In addition, caster level caps still exist so other builds wouldn't get any benefit from those same spells if they were already at the max caster level.

[MonadRebelion]

You cant just compare PnP D&D and DDO like that. In PnP meteorswarm even without metamagics can clear small army and/or put BOSS on submission. In DDO even with all those spellpower meteorswarm is waste SP/time most of the time, and good luck to kill any BOSS with it.
In D&D you will have 60% chance to land spell on on-level Drow encounter (11+level, but -2 for ECL SR) even naked and without taking single feat. In DDO try to not gear spell-pen, dont take spellpen feats or enhancements and no pastlifes ... then goodluck with onlevel drows.
I could continue and continue and continue .... but its pointless. The basics are that you just CANT compare D&D and DDO like that without taking hundreds and probably thousands things into consideration.
Its just better to think about it as 2 different things where one is just inspired by the other. Is you have "problem" with some rule in baseball for example you just solve that problem with baseball rules and with baseball in the mind. You are not trying to solve it with basketball and fooball rules just because both are using "balls". It would be little crazy right.
And its also little crazy to "solving" problems of DDO by referencing to D&D.

I presented my view as someone who plays both games. I am not someone who just plays pnp dnd saying what I think DDO should be like, naving no experience of the game.

[Avocado]

We will see too many 10x 6 wizard 4 favored soul shiradi builds since with this change 6 levels of wizard makes your magic missle and chain missle the equivalent of level 17 vs. level 9 now. That 10x would work with alot of classes and would be treated as caster level 21.

It over-rewards heavy splashing for SLAs since you gain 8 spell levels in every class. In addition, caster level caps still exist so other builds wouldn't get any benefit from those same spells if they were already at the max caster level.

I'm really not sure how shiradi works anymore. But MM and CM dont do very much damage alone. 6 caster levels on a spell that does 1d2+3 damage is an extra 10 damage maybe. The problem comes with if caster levels affect shiradi procs. If they do, then, yes, we will see a flood a shiradis. I dont want to see shriadi get more powerful but anything they do to spellcasters in general will affect shiradis. Hard to nerf shiradis w/o nerfing all spell casting (unless you take some bold actions, which wont happen).

[MonadRebelion]

People who don't want change never like any changes, if you listen to baseless objections you'll be paralyzed.




Lots of people who objected to the proposal suggested changes that seem better to me.

[FestusHood]

If you truly believe what your saying how do you EVER survive as a first life caster, or when Epics were done at Lvl 20?

First life characters will have a hard time running early epic elite content at level. I'm perfectly ok with that. That's the whole point of developing your character, especially at that point when there is so much available to be developed. I'm not one of those that thinks new players should be able to jump in and do well in the hardest content in the game after playing for a month.

I never played old epics, but from what i have heard, the actual numbers were lower than those same quests are now on epic elite. That's why you see lots of old epic armors with dr 5 on them. Because at the time, that was a meaningful amount. Getting dr 10 from several of the capstones was a pretty big deal. Saving throws were in the 40's, because they had to be reachable by characters that were essentially capped heroic. The old epic gear didn't add more than a couple of dc above that.

[Silverleafeon]

For your proposed feats I would like to point out that 20% extra crit damage does favor some builds more than others and so depending on what your aim is for this proposal I might suggest mixing +spell critical damage with something else such as % critical chance and reducing the values for both.
Ex.
Currently proposed: 33% crit (8 enhancement + 20 item + 5 base) * 40% = 13.2% dps increase, while 62% (16 enhancement + 22 item + 5 base + 10 empyrean magic + 9 energy criticals) * 40% = 24.8% dps increase.
If feat was instead: +5% crit chance and +15% crit damage
Then: 43% crit * 30% = 12.9% dps increase, with 72% * 30% = 21.6% dps increase on the other end of the crit spectrum. (obviously 62% is an extreme example, works on limited types of spells, and may have other drawbacks; it's merely to illustrate a point)


3. Hesitant on feats: Yes to BALANCE. No to powercreep. Do as you see fit and/or with possible changes to feats.

Nice math, however it is very flawed.

You left off minus 2 DC factor.
Your main flaw is multiplying bonuses directly.

The proper math is (please correct me if I am wrong, thank you):

Old DPS = [({Damage X} * {Spellpower} * {% to not crit}) + ({Damage X} * {Spellpower} * {% to crit} * {200% + Existing Bonuses to Crit Damage})]

Initial New DPS = [({Damage X} * {Spellpower} * {% to not crit}) + ({Damage X} * {Spellpower} * {% to crit} * {200% + New Bonuses to Crit Damage})]

New DPS Feat Tax Loss = [({50% loss from non evasion foes} * {Initial DPS} * {5% * DC lost from feat tax} * {% of non evasion foes}) + ({100% DPS loss from evasion foes} {Initial DPS} * {5% * DC lost from feat tax} * {% of evasion foes})]

True New DPS = Intitial DPS - DPS Feat Tax

Percentage of Increase in Power = {True New DPS / Old DPS}


Plug in a number and you will see, its less than you think it is.

[MonadRebelion]

Almost ALL the complaints are from people claiming they NEED +5 DC at Lvl 20. Playing devil's advocate for a sec this mean's one of two things.



Some people made complaints are about this. The serious complaint about spell levels concerns multiclass builds. As far as I can tell all the posters who I know have a good understanding of the game are worried about that issue.

[FestusHood]

We will see too many 10x 6 wizard 4 favored soul shiradi builds since with this change 6 levels of wizard makes your magic missle and chain missle the equivalent of level 17 vs. level 9 now. That 10x would work with alot of classes and would be treated as caster level 21.

It over-rewards heavy splashing for SLAs since you gain 8 spell levels in every class. In addition, caster level caps still exist so other builds wouldn't get any benefit from those same spells if they were already at the max caster level.

I'm interested in trying a shiradi caster. Magic Missiles cap at level 9, so they wouldn't gain any benefit from caster levels beyond that.

I'm confused about chain missiles. The description says you keep gaining missiles up to level 19, but if you click on the spell, the more detailed description on the wiki states that you get all ten missiles regardless of caster level. If you are going to build a shiradi caster, you would obviously be interested in maxing out the number of missiles you get from this spell. Which way is it?

Aslo, how would a level 6 wizard get to caster level 9 while in shiradi? Is that done with gear? What's a good piece of gear to do that with?

[Silverleafeon]

Aslo, how would a level 6 wizard get to caster level 9 while in shiradi? Is that done with gear? What's a good piece of gear to do that with?

There is a thread somewhere about a Favored Soul soloing/dualing Epic Elite with a very small amount of wizard/sorcerer levels, it includes videos. I'm looking for it now:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/440241-Yeela-FvS-17-Wiz-1-Monk-2-Healer-and-Dps-Shiradi-MM-spammer

He goes thru various builds and equipment.
It is interesting reading.

Having the Chronoscope set

http://ddowiki.com/images/Epic_Boots_of_Corrosion.png

was very important along with

tier 4 Exalted Angel:

Intense Faith: Your Fire, Force, Light, and Physical damage spells are cast at +1/+2/+3 caster level.
AP Cost: 2 Ranks: 3 Progression: 20 No requirements


also of interest is:

http://ddowiki.com/images/Twilight%2C_Element_of_Magic.png




So as you can see, its already doable to have somthing like Favored Soul 15+ / Wizard or Sorcerer X and go Shirdai.

The thread linked above does Favored Soul 17 / Monk 2 / Wizard 1




But to answer your question, no gear is required to get a Wizard Level 6 / Favored Soul 14 with caster levels of Wizard 9 / Favored Soul 17; all that is required is Tier 4 Exalted Angel.

Bear in mind you need Empower and Maximized feats taken and turned continually on, regardless of what you set the individual spells at.



This appears to be one of his fans making their own version:


I TR'd using Sun Elf to your build from Sorc with a deep wizzy splash Heavy Armor. Did 17FVS/3Wiz Heavy Shadow Guardian Armor. Great results. I feel like the "Commando" in Command & Conquer (if any of you out there played C&C). I gather them all up for the burst then MM & Nuke whats left. Int based was definitely the way to go with access to burst/hellball.
What fun this character is to play.

For those of you doing Heavy Armor remember that the Armor will show the spell failure like the augment doesn't stack with the enhancement but it does. Just hover over or cast the spell to see that the spell failure is no longer there.
You can also go with medium shadow armor at 26 with the 15% augment + 5% Elf + 5% EK then bump to the Heavy Guardian at 28 for obscene DR/PRR with 15% elf. HP are much easier to manage with 60DR/120+PRR over Evasion.
I like the 3 Wiz better also because of the increased force crit enhancements and more freedom to drop Twilight or not create the Alchemical Kama and just go with dual Thunderforged setup for all those red augments and meridian.

All I lost was the Toughness Feat and Evasion for Heavy Guardian Armor and 3Wiz freedom as you mentioned above. What a great trade.

Total Beast. Can do everything.


Reguarding your question on Force Missiles, I don't know, as I usually play pure casters (from the old school D&D "never, ever give up caster levels") --- which is what is being brought into major question atm? Since +10 caster levels for all your casters classes is quite a bit.

[davmuzl]

Maybe consider leaving caster levels in EDs but dont limit the ED to a specific type of caster level. So all caster EDs give a +1 caster level per core (for a max of +6) to all spells. This would make all the whinners about not getting +6 spell pen at 20 happy (maybe?). My druid gets no caster levels to my druid spells because exalted angel only gives clr/fvs/pal caster levels, which is lame.

On a side note: If eAmrath is going to be level 30 and mobs are going to be CR 70 on ee then were looking at 80+ SR. I think max is spell pen is 65 if i calculated correctly. You might break through 25% of the mobs SR with that. Not to mention it requires 3 feats, 2 twists, 3 PL wiz and fvs, and to be elf. So maybe take this into consideration when changing caster levels and dealing with spell pen.

That would still leave use with what so many people are afraid of... shiradi getting 8 extra caster levels. I doubt that a lot of people will actually care about spell pen at level 20. At the moment almost nobody has the feats or sometimes even no items.
The way to deal with shiradis however should be to give casters more powerful spell options in the higher levels. I like the storm of vengeance SLA on the druid. Its long cooldown mean that it is nothing to spam. At the same time it doesn't fell bad to use it because if needed the actual spell can still be used. That's imo what playing a caster should be about. Having very few powerful spells that have to be used wisely.

I don't think worrying about SR in future content makes a lot of sense. When the time comes the dev team will have to find a way to balance SR. The result should be that 1st life casters have to invest a lot and having PLs should reduce the number of feats that are required. There is no reason to speculate about what CR mobs will have and how high their SR is going to be.

[Avocado]

That would still leave use with what so many people are afraid of... shiradi getting 8 extra caster levels. I doubt that a lot of people will actually care about spell pen at level 20. At the moment almost nobody has the feats or sometimes even no items.
The way to deal with shiradis however should be to give casters more powerful spell options in the higher levels. I like the storm of vengeance SLA on the druid. Its long cooldown mean that it is nothing to spam. At the same time it doesn't fell bad to use it because if needed the actual spell can still be used. That's imo what playing a caster should be about. Having very few powerful spells that have to be used wisely.

I don't think worrying about SR in future content makes a lot of sense. When the time comes the dev team will have to find a way to balance SR. The result should be that 1st life casters have to invest a lot and having PLs should reduce the number of feats that are required. There is no reason to speculate about what CR mobs will have and how high their SR is going to be.

What does 8 extra caster levels of shiradi really do? I really dont care if shiradis get 8 more caster levels because my toons will as well. Regardless of what the Devs decide to do, any boost to casters in general means shiradis will also get more powerful.

[Silverleafeon]

so lvl 20/21 melee shouldn't have access to full ed ie blitz? wow that would cause some TR/ETR outrage.. Casters need to be handled the same. and that would be a huge nerf that the players will not put up with.

Aye, that is why most of my Epic Destiny increases to 10 models includes a hybrid grandfathered version:

Current ED Levels allowed = [the greater of {5} or {the lesser of (Current Epic Level or Earned Epic Destiny Level)}]

[slarden]

On a side note: If eAmrath is going to be level 30 and mobs are going to be CR 70 on ee then were looking at 80+ SR. I think max is spell pen is 65 if i calculated correctly. You might break through 25% of the mobs SR with that. Not to mention it requires 3 feats, 2 twists, 3 PL wiz and fvs, and to be elf. So maybe take this into consideration when changing caster levels and dealing with spell pen.

Spell Penetration is also something on my mind with eShavarath coming out. I already have a template for a U27 PM necromancer and I am 61 out of max I could think of @ 67:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461262-U27-Morninglord-Palemaster-Necromancer-Build

My build is missing 6 spell penetration from magister (the spell pen + 3 caster levels in a school). The 2 difference between our calcs might be echoes of the ancestor arcane twist from fatesinger which provides +1 int +2 spell pen.

Prior to U14 you could get a no-fail spell penetration in eDevilAssult and eChrono with only 1 past life wizard and all the feats/enhancements (drow - so no racial) and a +3 item. If that is the model for eShavarath the spell penetration requirement would be 57 (67 - 3 racial - 7 of 9 past lifes), but as you said the wiki says the # is CR + 10 so it will be in the 80s if that is accurate.

I can't think of any arcane augmentation items that fit in my gear to boost it up, but maybe we are missing something.

[Avocado]

Spell Penetration is also something on my mind with eShavarath coming out. I already have a template for a U27 PM necromancer and I am 61 out of max I could think of @ 67:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461262-U27-Morninglord-Palemaster-Necromancer-Build

My build is missing 6 spell penetration from magister (the spell pen + 3 caster levels in a school). The 2 difference between our calcs might be echoes of the ancestor arcane twist from fatesinger which provides +1 int +2 spell pen.

Prior to U14 you could get a no-fail spell penetration in eDevilAssult and eChrono with only 1 past life wizard and all the feats/enhancements (drow - so no racial) and a +3 item. If that is the model for eShavarath the spell penetration requirement would be 57 (67 - 3 racial - 7 of 9 past lifes), but as you said the wiki says the # is CR + 10 so it will be in the 80s if that is accurate.

I can't think of any arcane augmentation items that fit in my gear to boost it up, but maybe we are missing something.

I missed one: Alchemicals can be crafted with arcane augmentation IX which increase wiz/sorc spells cast by 2. So 69 maybe?

[Silverleafeon]

What does 8 extra caster levels of shiradi really do? Let you take less wizard and more of something else? I dont play shiradis because I dont enjoy them. Regardless of what the Devs decide to do, any boost to casters in general means shiradi will also get more powerful.

Better answer than mine, see post 330 (2 below this one)

Good question, they will probably look towards Cleric or Favored Soul
(there is a pen and paper prestige that includes +1 divine and +1 arcane caster levels)
I think it is in the DMG?



Anyway, Favored Soul 10 / Wizard 10 fails, because you don't get blade barrier.

Cleric X / ___ fails because you don't get temp sp, although Divine Disciple might look sweet, still you are giving up spell pen on the Cleric side which might hurt.


Favored Soul wants both Heal and Blade Barrier and to get that they need at least level 13 Favored Soul, if you increase to 14 you can cast quickened resurrection instead of scrolling it. At 15 they gain cometfall, although that is one of the few spells a pure favored soul can do better.

So, the other half would be Wizard or Sorcerer between 1 and 7 levels?

Chain missile is a level 3 arcane spell, which requires 5 Wizard or 6 Sorcerer (unknown max caster level ?)
{I do know the wiki version of this spell is more accurate than the in game description, however max caster level, I don't know for sure.}

Force missiles is a level 4 arcane spell, available to a Wizard 7 or Sorcerer 8 (max caster level 12?)


As far as mixing up Warlock, I don't know.


Personally I have found Favored Soul 14 is about the min level to still function as a divine in a group.
Clerics can go to 13.
Although I have scrolled resurrection alot with a Druid (its expensive and sometimes fails) in mark of death (lol, bring a full stack you will need em)...


With Augments and other enhancements you can get no fail % casting arcane in full armor if you work at it.



But to answer your question> maybe another Force Missile on a Wizard?
Fireballs max at level 10 anyway.


However this does allow more modern equipment, and lower Favored Soul levels.
In other words with The Favored Soul caster levels going up then Heal is not so important.

So maybe the 10 / 10 split might work, because Cure Serious Wounds has caster level 20 not 10.
These two do open up a lot...hmmm...
The world will turn upside down?


I have found as a Druid that Shirdai is far better DPS than Primal, as foes trapped in earthquakes/ice storms are more likely to die, compared to Primal where I need melee or more spells to kill what I have Crowd Controled.

[Silverleafeon]

I don't think worrying about SR in future content makes a lot of sense. When the time comes the dev team will have to find a way to balance SR. The result should be that 1st life casters have to invest a lot and having PLs should reduce the number of feats that are required. There is no reason to speculate about what CR mobs will have and how high their SR is going to be.

Sadly, the Devs make up these charts with "Max Whatever obtainable" which is what we are fearing atm...that they will use these charts even though a build with them would not make sense to design new mobs.

That has been the fear in the past for extra past lives or Completionist being an free autogranted feat.
Keeping the game open to all.
Which is a whole debate in itself...lol..

Yes, hopefully the Devs will keep all that in mind.

[Blackheartox]

What does 8 extra caster levels of shiradi really do? I really dont care if shiradis get 8 more caster levels because my toons will as well. Regardless of what the Devs decide to do, any boost to casters in general means shiradis will also get more powerful.

Do i need to write that example every time someone proves such lack of understanding of how that buff will make specific shiradi builds to strong?

Listen, if you do not play in shiradi but in a caster related destiny, like draconic or magister or lets say exalted or whatever you alrdy get 5 caster levels.
You get a bonus of 3, when at lv 28 and a bonus of 2 more when at lv 30.
You get 0 benefit that scales your damage, what you get is just spell penetration. (unless if you plan to play a sorc in exalted that would also benefit from this change to much)
In case you use epic destiny spells (tnx to moo) they would gain 3 caster levels.
So benefit for casters with this change is minimal and in worst case scenario we can say it is a nerf in lower tier epic elites.
Spell penetration currently is in epic content needed in motus, in sentinel chain and in temple and some 3bc quests, specifically in precious cargo.
You could include golems in necro, but you wont crack that spell resist so who cares about that.
So basically since you spend most of the leveling time in motu content and lod saga, and some sentinel quests you will be below lv 25, so the caster level change would actually be a nerf to you.
So ok, that is first part of proposal, 2nd part is spell critical damage feats.
Lets say it is epic feats, you lose potential 2 dc, from example of a epic focus and epic stat, lets assume its a epic destiny feat, you lose hellball that will cost you hella lot dps on /druid, fsoul, wiz and sorc builds.

Those are the reallistical things that would happen with this change.
You as a dc caster, trade and LOSE while you are in a spot where you need those dcs, you need that hellball and you gain boss dps.
You lose to gain, tradeoffs?
I wont compare to melles who trade nothing for power beside boredom from superiority.

Il compare to the build i said couple pages back.

12 warlock 6 wiz 2 fsoul.

You get 30% spell critical damage with that build, you get 51 spell critical chance, with abishai set and a lob shield you get capped chain missile, magic missile, magic and chain missile slas, you can afford those feats for spell critical damage, thus you have 70% spell critical damage.
You have sp on crits, your ruin has the capability to crit for 20-30 k.
You have one of best defenses, one of best offenses, you get a aura that ticks shiradi procs.

YOu have no trade off, you just gained, gained, gained, gained and gained.
YOur energy burst caster level is the same as that of a wizzard, you laugh at a wizzard while pressing 1 2 3 and tell him that he wasted time for getting gear, past lifes, that he had to run mark 3x times more then you, that he had to run wyrm 3x times more then you.

And you are not alone, all sorc of 6 wizzard hybrids came to your power level, your fellow friend 12 fsoul 6 wizzard is also suddenly capable of having maxed chain missile casts.
Your friends with 1 wiz 1 sorc 18 whatever are capable of firing salvos of mm while keeping spell critical damage feats easily.



This proposal concept is good, but the implementation idea is terrible.
Tie critical damage to destiny cores, give NOTHING to shiradi, since they get their caster level buff and everyone happy.
Simple as it can be.

People need to understand the concerns of actual caster players who play epic, and not some theorycrafting only players who dont know the issues of boss dps, soloeffficiency in epic content.
Best thing that should had been done is what monkey boy said, allow dots to create debuffs of its element, that would boost overall dps and wont mess with core casting mechanics and create gaps between builds.

Spell critical damage will become the holy sword of casting in case it is not implemented correctly.

[Silverleafeon]

Il compare to the build i said couple pages back.

12 warlock 6 wiz 2 fsoul.

You get 30% spell critical damage with that build, you get 51 spell critical chance, with abishai set and a lob shield you get capped chain missile, magic missile, magic and chain missile slas, you can afford those feats for spell critical damage, thus you have 70% spell critical damage.
You have sp on crits, your ruin has the capability to crit for 20-30 k.
You have one of best defenses, one of best offenses, you get a aura that ticks shiradi procs.

YOu have no trade off, you just gained, gained, gained, gained and gained.
YOur energy burst caster level is the same as that of a wizzard, you laugh at a wizzard while pressing 1 2 3 and tell him that he wasted time for getting gear, past lifes, that he had to run mark 3x times more then you, that he had to run wyrm 3x times more then you.



+1 rep

there you go, Warlock for the overpowered mess...etc..

All these quirks add up.

If needed we could tie Caster Levels to Epic Destiny Innates (like we do with Melee Power) that frees up Epic Destiny levels. Of course there is a very flat power curve that needs to be addressed in other ways.


Such as:

Epic Levels now reduced metamagic costs by X% per Epic Level with Level 30 is 75% reduction off of final numbers (rounded up)

More SP and More ability to use Metamagics = more spell DPS ?!?

[slarden]

I missed one: Alchemicals can be crafted with arcane augmentation IX which increase wiz/sorc spells cast by 2. So 69 maybe?

My feeling is that a caster will want a DC and a spell pen item so there is no room for it, but yes theoretically you can hold an alchemical and a TF spell pen item. I wouldn't include it the max though since I don't think it's an item people will realistically use.

[Silverleafeon]

It all started with inflated Monster Hit points...it was not the players causing the power creep it is the monsters to blame for all of this.

[Silverleafeon]

Notice with the Epic Destiny levels going to 10 model, you only gain in one class type, not all.

The trade off for Shirdai is only CL increases in Druid and Ranger caster levels.
Any decent Druid want Earthquake (which hopefully will remain exclusive to Druids since classes need to be different), so they will start at Druid level 15 / _____ X

Most Druids pick up Favored Soul for temp sp, and Wiz/Fighter/Monk for the bonus feats.
Earthquake/Icestorm/etc for the win

Hmm...might see some Warlock there soon?

But in this model (without the spell crit damage bonus feats), there is no big magic missile usage situation.
Oh sure you could do some, but you have lots of procures already available.


However the big part of more Epic Destiny Levels to me is the extra points to spend in the tree.
Open it up and look at all the empty space there.

[Angelic-council]

I'm really not sure how shiradi works anymore. But MM and CM dont do very much damage alone. 6 caster levels on a spell that does 1d2+3 damage is an extra 10 damage maybe. The problem comes with if caster levels affect shiradi procs. If they do, then, yes, we will see a flood a shiradis. I dont want to see shriadi get more powerful but anything they do to spellcasters in general will affect shiradis. Hard to nerf shiradis w/o nerfing all spell casting (unless you take some bold actions, which wont happen).

Yes mouse. Everything except.. add critical multiplier into specific ED core. Because EDs are what separate many builds.

Magic missile is not the only reason why people play shiradi casters. But it's the big part of it. MMs scale with caster level and there is a cap. After that, it's all about your spell power, critical chance and critical damage. That's why you see many people multi class, because they don't have to level wizard/sorcerer any further than, say.. 6 - 8 level?. This would give shiradi casters huge advantage and they can pick FvS for extra caster level, spell power and most importantly: spell regen and critical chance.

As you can see, those who don't rely on DC casting can ignore most difficult aspect of the game. Shiradi casters only wish - their power would scale with either by epic level or feats. Because that's not the trade off for them, that's just pure gain. They would gladly drop any feats taken at lv21 and lv24.

I see you wondering why this is so important, MM does only little damage. But MM could actually be deadly when spammed multiple of times. MM missile with high critical chance and damage can be a decent damage considering the low cost ontop of shiradi proc. Casters also use energy burst and hellball, none DC based spells etc. When you have everything combined and add shiradi proc into it.. you are doing devastating damage and with little tiny bit of mana.

I believe shiradi is a good build choice, I know it's cheap, but I don't hate them. We need shiradi casters in DDO, it's an amazing ED. But what about other EDs. People who need high DC to land a spell, those people use 30 - 40 or more SP per cast compared to shiradi 2 to 10 - 18 SP. Once monsters save my 453 fire power: delayed fireball (instant) they would take 0 to 800 damage.

Once you start playing both then you will learn more, you will then see the difference too.

[Arkai]

They seem very strong, indeed...

Will those features apply to rune arms? :)

[SirValentine]

The heights to which a melee can reach (sustainable 4.2k damage) are 2-3X that of a nuking DC caster from our bruntsmash results. In a raid group 3 wizards do as much damage as 1 paladin. Paladins don't use SP.


Thanks for some hard data!

[Failedlegend]

Some people made complaints are about this. The serious complaint about spell levels concerns multiclass builds. As far as I can tell all the posters who I know have a good understanding of the game are worried about that issue.

If that mattered you would see Ranger/Druids & Arty10/Wizard10s (since they both get CLs from the arcane sphere) but you don't since increased CL doesn't grant class abilities or Spell levels.

[Angelic-council]

It all started with inflated Monster Hit points...it was not the players causing the power creep it is the monsters to blame for all of this.

No silver. It was players. But really both.

lets clear our mind and talk about history, how DDO all started....

Everything was fine back then, no power creeps, monsters didn't have 200k HPs. Then, we started to gain more and more power each update as the level cap raise (as it should). At the very end, we gained significant amount of power and began to think smart. We tested many good builds as we progress leveling up and eventually, TR. It was clear who dominated the content back then. After all that, after some nerf in classes. Turbine introduced epic content, EDs. Turbine knew that the content has to be hard because DDO has to head into the different direction. So they buffed monsters significantly to bring the challenge. Then again, with new level cap, gear and maxed out destinies, people began to learn how to be good once again, even tho, content remained difficult still. But because of those previous changes, turbine had to buff monsters (monsters champion) and added + 6 magical resistance (used to be hidden until just recently). And much more.. so, it was players fault, and monsters just playing part of it.

[AlexIII]

This will get your empyrian magic stack to 10 even outside of combat in no time. Works on any class. Thank me later.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Eternal_Wand_of_Cure_Minor_Wounds

I said there was a difference between doing it a doing it well. low level wands of all sorts are so cheap as to be free at epic eternal makes it faster. now you get the problem when combat lasts more than 10 seconds(often). using any wand, potion, or weak spell still has a time cost which yields a big dps cost. that such a costly (time and dps wise) effect is so efficient for non fire/light casters indicates its op or the others are under powered.



You have the full ****** DC casters who want their cake and their crit multiplier too and do not want to spend their great stat feat slots on spell crits.


DC casters are the most crippled in the game. All non-shiradi need a buff. DC's also need a way to deal with the stupid high boss hp. The best solution is to let Bosses be effected in some way by most DC spell effects, but thats a lot of dev work. DC's don't nessesarily need the new crit multiplier, but the do need a way to make that hp shrink. Mechanics to increase the number of effective spells in epics would also make it more interesting.

[Avocado]

DC casters are the most crippled in the game. All non-shiradi need a buff. DC's also need a way to deal with the stupid high boss hp.

There was a time, not too long ago, when a Dev mentioned that they were looking into casters getting more boss dps. They said maybe in the form of a DOT that wasnt as sp intensive as ruin. I havent heard anything since.

[Silverleafeon]

No silver. It was players. But really both.

lets clear our mind and talk about history, how DDO all started....

Everything was fine back then, no power creeps, monsters didn't have 200k HPs. Then, we started to gain more and more power each update as the level cap raise (as it should). At the very end, we gained significant amount of power and began to think smart. We tested many good builds as we progress leveling up and eventually, TR. It was clear who dominated the content back then. After all that, after some nerf in classes. Turbine introduced epic content, EDs. Turbine knew that the content has to be hard because DDO has to head into the different direction. So they buffed monsters significantly to bring the challenge. Then again, with new level cap, gear and maxed out destinies, people began to learn how to be good once again, even tho, content remained difficult still. But because of those previous changes, turbine had to buff monsters (monsters champion) and added + 6 magical resistance (used to be hidden until just recently). And much more.. so, it was players fault, and monsters just playing part of it.

Wow, thank you, just got a great storyline/comic line out of that.
Even fits into a beginning I have...

Woot!



Thanks all, yes I probably posted too much, and some of my ideas are wild...hopefully the Devs can sort everything out...cheers...

[nibel]

The metas really really NEED redesign. Considering for example spell with basic cost 20SP with 300 appropriate spellpower(4x damage) (rather low). Maximized it becomes 45SP with 450 (5,5x damage) spellpower.
That is +125% SP for only (5,5/4) +37,5% damage increase. That i call Highly inefficient.

I miss the days of the old percentage-based metamagics. Empower was +50% power for double SP, and Maximize was double power for triple SP. This scaled well no matter if you were casting Niac's at level 1 or Chain Lightnings at level 13. Or if you had zilch for spell enhancers, or fully-specced on your element. But on the other hand, at that time the spell costs themselves were higher (Attack level 1 spells were base 10 SP instead of current 4), we had much more timid SP bars, and mnemonic potions were something rare and valuable, not a store consumable.

So, yeah. Just going back to before the metamagic pass is not a solution. But can be an inspiration.

At level 1-10 to spam SLA, Max/Emp is an amazing investment. On epics they always felt... subpar. Sure, 225 Spell Power is a ton of spell power, but it is much more noticeable at low-mid levels when you have 20-100 spell power than on epics, where you have 450+ spell power.

[redoubt]

Varg do you consider it "legitimate" that you can gain access to the entirety of an ED at Lvl 20 making actual Epic levels pretty meaningless.

/snip

This is frankly how it should have been to start and I said as much when I first saw EDs. Same reason it would be ridiculous to Have 80 Heroic AP @ Lvl 1.

Seriously though Varg, people are ALWAYS going to complain this is a BUFF (currently +3 CL and soon to be +5 CL) and people are crying NERF.

Sidenote: Varg I know you've already seen This (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/461032-A-dumb-idea-for-making-ability-spell-DCs-more-forgiving) thread about rejigging the DC formula but I think it's relevant to bring it up.

I don't want more things at cap that I'll never use. I already have pages of level 28 gear that never gets used and pages of level 27 gear that I use only for a couple days.

I'd be okay with 21 = ED1, 22= ED2 etc... You'd have full ED at 25. Then you start picking up ED feats at 26.

[noinfo]

We're thinking about some possible changes for casting in epic levels. This could potentially come as soon as Update 26, though that's not certain.

In short: We think caster damage should scale better during Epic levels. For this scope of change, we're focusing on damage.

We're aware that DC/saves are always a tricky issue we need to keep our eye on. We probably can't make strong changes re: DC/saves in the near term, whereas we might have some things we're comfortable doing relating to damage. A thread for another day.


Here's some concrete changes we're considering:

Each Epic Level now provides +1 Caster Level for all spells.
Epic Destinies no longer provide bonuses to Caster Levels. (We may revisit some Epic Destinies in the future.)


These two changes increase some end game casting abilities and free players to play in their preferred destiny, rather than being locked into a sphere. This does potentially reduce the power of casters who are (1) currently active in the appropriate sphere, (2) have finished their active destiny, and (3) are below level 25. This is also a change that has been brought up by players in the past.


New proposed Epic Feats:
Epic Spell Critical Damage I (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Level 21, ability to cast spells (Wizard 1 or Paladin 4, etc.)


Epic Spell Critical Damage II (name subject to change)


Passive
+20% Critical Damage with Spells
Requires: Epic Spell Critical Damage I


This may require giving up some other feats if you want to focus on maximizing damage with your existing spells. We'll keep tabs on how casting performs in the future and may make additional adjustments. We're still considering many aspects of these feats, including the requirements. One or both of these could require use of a level 26 or level 28 feat slot, instead of level 21 - being in Epic is the minimum for this consideration.

We have some other ideas ideas mind for future changes, possibly coinciding with level 30, which may affect things such as Maximum Caster Levels, closer examination of DCs and saving throws, or further balance in Epic Destinies themselves. We're confident that the above proposed changes are a positive direction for DDO, that also don't meaningfully restrict future design options and goals. We don't expect these changes are the end of the conversation, but rather a safe and strong beginning.

Your thoughts, feelings, hardcore data and ideas are welcome!

I am in 2 minds as to whether putting this off into the future is good or bad.

I really appreciate that the devs have acknowledged the issue and there are some elements I don't mind. Feat tax that boosts dps of casters is my biggest issue.

If you want to put it in then the dps of damage casters will be buffed in particular shiradi.

DC casters will be proxy nerfed further. To address the DC casters in particular instakill though enchantment are another that suffers issues due to the change of rules between heroic and epic.

Instakills effect orange named in Heroic, this was deemed to powerful in Epic when they trialled it originally and so orange named joined red and purple in their blanket immunities. Now we also have death blocked champions. (though their hp are usually substantially lower and can be dealt with)

So lets look at alternative feats for DC casters (though I think these should be free anyway)

Level 26 and 28 so they don't chew up normal epic feats.

Level 26 Epic Spell Strength, Your instakills function as Mortal Fear based weapons on Orange Named and Secondary saves or protections vs charms and other effects function against non Orange named as they do in Heroic. Relative dps jumps up in both areas.

Level 28 Greater Epic Spell Strength, Your instakills function as Mortal Fear at a greatly reduced rate vs red and purple, doing 5% on a successful cast, other spells such as holds and cc can effect red and purple mobs for 1 second before being automatically shrugged off. Each type of save fort, will, reflex vs these types of spells only gain a +1 (or x) bonus each time they take effect making further debuffs necessary or to choose a variety of spell combinations or the DC's run out of range.

EG a red named mob with 55 fort save gets hit with fod and takes 5% of its health in a hit. It takes 5% of its remaining hp damage and gains +1 to fort saves vs instakills, after cool down its hit again and 5% more of its remaining is removed it now has +2 to fort saves etc, making it less likely to be able to land a spell of that type and it having a reduced effect anyway.
That same mob is being beat on by a melee and is hit for Hold monster which it shrugs off quickly but for that 1 second it is not able to hit and receives 50% extra damage an now has +1 vs will power saves. (interplay with hypno and mind fog would have to be considered as to how these would work with named)

This starts to give casters of different types different ways of contributing to end fights and gives relative dps options. None of these suggestions would be easy to implement I would imagine but would provide more variety than just stand back and nuke in end fights (since we no longer debuff ->this needs specific attention as well to make it more viable.)

Now with that all being said. I have to comment that the way this group of devs are bring up possible solutions and feeding back to the community has been the best I have ever seen here. I may not always like the options you provide but the fact you go through your thinking process is something I respect and in general will only make the game better. (basically just because you do not always get positives from your ideas does not mean we don't appreciate you taking the time to make the game better)

[Zoda]

Without having read all the discussion in the thread... This would make shiradi even more broken. For that alone I hate the idea, and won't even bother to try to see it's benefits. I liked to play caster when Wail of the Banshee was a better spell than Magic Missile...

The feats are nice.

[Wipey]

Thanks for some hard data!
It's a lie. There are no raids with three wizards. Few people with Mod specced wizzies that don't get played otherwise - pimped out bank toons.
How many casters are there in general ? Especially clerics, wizards, druids, those that still try to play with DC spells.
Raid parties are all Blitzers pallies, bards, barbs, mechanics.
Quests ditto.
Achievements, those that still bother - it's the same Blitzer barb or pally again.

And then you etr your caster and are happy not to run out of spell points in KF and gotta nag your friends to carry you through Stormhorns or Toee before you are at cap - because your spells do sod all despite you having every single past life, top notch gear and spending last few years playing the class.

****, I can do stuff on my stupid no past life tempest ( class deemed useless and unplayable on the forums ) that my million past life cleric couldn't do. Wizard is just ... weak.
Toee ? I bring monkcher or pally. Cleric or wizard doesn't bring anything at all, except redundant healing, cc that doesn't matter anyway or some okay aoe. Just more scaling without adequate offense contribution.

Anyone disagreeing about castery power - please post some footage or link us some uber castery achievement or ee solo.
I'd find you 20 much faster and much easier to do videos on melee or other "dps" characters. Heck I'll make a vid if you wish so.

The power difference - especially at level EE is just comical.

[rehakp]

It's a lie. There are no raids with three wizards. Few people with Mod specced wizzies that don't get played otherwise - pimped out bank toons.
How many casters are there in general ? Especially clerics, wizards, druids, those that still try to play with DC spells.
Raid parties are all Blitzers pallies, bards, barbs, mechanics.
Quests ditto.
Achievements, those that still bother - it's the same Blitzer barb or pally again.

And then you etr your caster and are happy not to run out of spell points in KF and gotta nag your friends to carry you through Stormhorns or Toee before you are at cap - because your spells do sod all despite you having every single past life, top notch gear and spending last few years playing the class.

****, I can do stuff on my stupid no past life tempest ( class deemed useless and unplayable on the forums ) that my million past life cleric couldn't do. Wizard is just ... weak.
Toee ? I bring monkcher or pally. Cleric or wizard doesn't bring anything at all, except redundant healing, cc that doesn't matter anyway or some okay aoe. Just more scaling without adequate offense contribution.

Anyone disagreeing about castery power - please post some footage or link us some uber castery achievement or ee solo.
I'd find you 20 much faster and much easier to do videos on melee or other "dps" characters. Heck I'll make a vid if you wish so.

The power difference - especially at level EE is just comical.

Sad true. Thats why i ETRed my wizard into Divine Crusader/EK cleaver with 2hander. I have completionist, nice gear etc. but in endgame EE wizard is **** (unless spamming missiles in shiradi). If i grab nice 2hander put on tensers and/or crusader and/or LD i do amazing sustainable DPS (compared to joking with spells) and its even almost resource free. Even if io dont have all thee feets fightr can have and cant buy all feats i could want because of low BAB class i stil am doing better just swinging and cleaving with 2hander opposite to burning mana on metted fireballs and fingers.

[Vanhooger]

It's a lie. There are no raids with three wizards. Few people with Mod specced wizzies that don't get played otherwise - pimped out bank toons.
How many casters are there in general ? Especially clerics, wizards, druids, those that still try to play with DC spells.
Raid parties are all Blitzers pallies, bards, barbs, mechanics.
Quests ditto.
Achievements, those that still bother - it's the same Blitzer barb or pally again.

And then you etr your caster and are happy not to run out of spell points in KF and gotta nag your friends to carry you through Stormhorns or Toee before you are at cap - because your spells do sod all despite you having every single past life, top notch gear and spending last few years playing the class.

****, I can do stuff on my stupid no past life tempest ( class deemed useless and unplayable on the forums ) that my million past life cleric couldn't do. Wizard is just ... weak.
Toee ? I bring monkcher or pally. Cleric or wizard doesn't bring anything at all, except redundant healing, cc that doesn't matter anyway or some okay aoe. Just more scaling without adequate offense contribution.

Anyone disagreeing about castery power - please post some footage or link us some uber castery achievement or ee solo.
I'd find you 20 much faster and much easier to do videos on melee or other "dps" characters. Heck I'll make a vid if you wish so.

The power difference - especially at level EE is just comical.

Well that's true, all DC caster now are a joke.

Some people still say caster rulez but I asked many time here in the forum for some video on the most difficult EE quest & raid with no SP pot but I still have to see one.

I played as a melee & ranged for last (at least 10 tr) and it's now so boring swinging and cleaving that last night I tr'd into a DC druid even if I almost forgot how to play a caster. Did it just for the fun in Heroic.

There are two solution:
1) Nerf melee/ranged & mobs hp, save (not going to happen)
2) Buff DC caster, NOT shiradi

[Failedlegend]

Without having read all the discussion in the thread... This would make shiradi even more broken. For that alone I hate the idea, and won't even bother to try to see it's benefits. I liked to play caster when Wail of the Banshee was a better spell than Magic Missile...

The feats are nice.

Magic Missile has NO DC or Spell Pen and it caps at Lvl 9...we could add +10,000,000 CL to it and it wouldn't change anything

Seriously though Shiradi casters aren't anywhere near as good as they claim they are.

Limited to the Arcane Sphere as I am currently I love me some Draconic Incarnation even on a terribly build wizard its awesome...when they move Caster levels to Epic it will be a hard choice between DI and Divine Crusader for a Fire Savant, for a Wizard Shadowdancer would be an interesting choice.

Oh and whilst I think the claims that mvoing caster levels to Epic levels will result in builds like Sorc10/Cleric10 are ridiculous a simple solution will quash those complaints...only allow you to boost the Caster Level of one of your classes (can choose during any ED AP reset). Problem solved.

[Vanhooger]

Magic Missile has NO DC or Spell Pen and it caps at Lvl 9...we could addd +10,000,000 CL to it and it wouldn't change anything

Seriously though Shiradi casters aren't anywhere near as good as they claim they are.

Chain Missiles spell & sla?

The problem is you can get max caster level even with few wizz level, for MM, scorching ray ecc

[Thar]

I do think they should rework ED's so they don't give full power at level 20... the current Expectation by the player base is clearly having a negative impact on new designs. A Bad design enforcing more bad design...

Changing design will only cause problems. IF you change casters you have ot change melee and all. So do you now want blitz at level 20? did you not work for that to open the sphere. The design isn't to relevel each sphere it is to relevel your karma. Stop the nerfs and make the game better not more annoying.

sad that our PC has this type of suggestion

[Thar]

Aye, that is why most of my Epic Destiny increases to 10 models includes a hybrid grandfathered version:

Current ED Levels allowed = [the greater of {5} or {the lesser of (Current Epic Level or Earned Epic Destiny Level)}]

still blocking off the tier 6 abilities that are critical on some builds. nerf is a nerf. the place is a ghostown now. why tick off more players. I could care less if someone has an uber build. if they are having fun they are playing and paying the game. That means the game goes on and does not become IC and fold.

[Failedlegend]

still blocking off the tier 6 abilities that are critical on some builds. nerf is a nerf. the place is a ghostown now. why tick off more players. I could care less if someone has an uber build. if they are having fun they are playing and paying the game. That means the game goes on and does not become IC and fold.

Its always been ridiculous that you can access max ED @ Lvl 20 for the same reason it would ridiculous to get all 80 AP @ Heroic Level one...and if your build can't function in Level 20 Content unless it has a maxed out ED than there's something seriously wrong with your build.

[Thar]

It's a lie. There are no raids with three wizards. Few people with Mod specced wizzies that don't get played otherwise - pimped out bank toons.
How many casters are there in general ? Especially clerics, wizards, druids, those that still try to play with DC spells.
Raid parties are all Blitzers pallies, bards, barbs, mechanics.
Quests ditto.
Achievements, those that still bother - it's the same Blitzer barb or pally again.

And then you etr your caster and are happy not to run out of spell points in KF and gotta nag your friends to carry you through Stormhorns or Toee before you are at cap - because your spells do sod all despite you having every single past life, top notch gear and spending last few years playing the class.

****, I can do stuff on my stupid no past life tempest ( class deemed useless and unplayable on the forums ) that my million past life cleric couldn't do. Wizard is just ... weak.
Toee ? I bring monkcher or pally. Cleric or wizard doesn't bring anything at all, except redundant healing, cc that doesn't matter anyway or some okay aoe. Just more scaling without adequate offense contribution.

Anyone disagreeing about castery power - please post some footage or link us some uber castery achievement or ee solo.
I'd find you 20 much faster and much easier to do videos on melee or other "dps" characters. Heck I'll make a vid if you wish so.

The power difference - especially at level EE is just comical.

Agreed, casters at first glance look ok but it doesn't hold up thorugh a raid/quest unless your a melee caster heavy armor bladeforged build.

[Smiling_Demon]

Hi there, it's nice to see these ideas about casters to help them in EE, they need it because not everyone have the ultimate gear nor tomes to help them, and some 1st lifers really struggle in EH.

But i think the feats you propose doesn't solve any problem to the casters, and only leads to scale the balance to DPS casters and splash build, in the same time it feels like is a punish to be a pure caster (I know is not the intention, but always seems that way to every pure class).

My thoughts about that and epic in general:

While heroic quests are in general (But not all) well balanced, normal is fine, hard is hard and elite is by no means a walk in the park. Epic quests are not, solo an elite quest is almost certain a wipeout. That's fine, after all is "Epic" and "Elite", and i don't think that means "Hey everyone this gonna be a piece of cake".
The problem, I think, is not the insane diference between normal, hard and epic, but is that by the time you reach lvl 20 the character is all made and done, no more real and meaningful progression, you just get some more hp, a little more saves, BaB and a bit of ranged and melee power, with a few more feats to consolidate the build you have made... powerful feats indeed but is just mere an extra the build you already have. At least for melee/ranged classes that's it, but for casters who don't get any of those little extras, save for the hp and perhaps saves (And is not much with low healt and only good will), those 8 soon to be 10 lvls are dead lvls aside for the feats which they use to boost DPS or DC. This fact rises an alarm, beacuse it means if you are dedicate caster (Not pure, but spellcasting is the best you can do) you can only go for Ruin and Hellball or the feats that increase DC... not much of a choice.

Well, now is the time for some ideas of mine, hope you like them:

The removal of bonus to caster lvl from ED and put them in Epic lvls is a good choice, but it will be more powerful to splash builds, and right now are few (If any) reasons to go lvl 20 a class. So either you A) Make that caster lvl bonus a multisector feat choosing in which class applies (Not my favorite option) or B) Make more appealing to be a pure class (And I mean all classes not just casters), i'll explain it later.

Now for the Epic destiny , if the casters need a reason to play in a sphere in which they are good at, then give them that reason!. I suggest this; arcane, divine and primal destinies (except fury of the wild and maybe unyielding sentinel) give a +1 bonus to maximum caster lvl for each innate ability except the lvl 0, of course for a class that is related to it. The only problem with that is; what gives then martial sphere? (and possibly fury of the wild and unyielding sentinel?) maybe a +.20 Weapon Dmg for each innate ability above 0, but thats for another thread.

Also each epic lvl should grant +3 universal spell power (like it does ranged/melee power).
And 20 spell points plus bonus for high spellcasting ability (the bonus for high ability should not apply to non casters classes, also if more than one caster class apply, the class with higher lvls is the one used for the bonus, in case of a tie resolve it like reincarnation for past lives) or at least 10 spell points, this will help to mantain the sp pool and if is universal to all classes it will make less stingy the use of consecration and other abilities that require sp for non casters.


Time to explain what i mean about make more appealing to be a pure class. If you have read this far, thanks, also you may notice that these few proposals are all about lvls, meaning that you don't get powerful just because you past lvl 20, you became powerful at each lvl step by step, growing again, slowly, like it was in heroic lvls, except epic destiny, but that is a pay feature and its ok to be powerful from the start (You paid for it after all). But as you see, all classes get those generic benefits, all classes get the same epic progression... but if you can continue to progress your class beyond lvl 20? I don't mean all the things the DDO already cover, its a nice way how they do the Hp, skills, saves, BAB and ranged/melee power. I mean your class features (BTW in epic lvls are free feats as class features).

Now lets say you reach lvl 20 cleric (You know, a pure one) at that lvl you gain a class feature (or a feat, i dont know which will be easier to do in the code lines) called something like "legendary Cleric" ("legendary <Class>") and it grants +1 cleric lvl to turn undead for each epic lvl and +1 feat every 3 epic lvls (lvls 23, 26 and 29), these feats are aside the ones we get normally at lvls 21, 24, 27 and 30(?) which is basicaly the Epic cleric progression of PnP. This will be a real motivator to do any class and go pure, maybe the feats granted should not be epic or maybe it can be a multisector feat that you take at lvl 21 with the prerequisite of 20 lvls in one class, and it can be done to any class so far.

And Finally some ideas for epic feats (Not all caster related), right now is not much variation, and if the idea of lvl progression is revised maybe we will need some more feats to really be a diverse bunch of random people throwing parties at a dungeon... what a creepy bunch we are, don't we? T-T


All Feats are supposed to be epic feats:

Automatic Quicken Spell [Metamagic]: [Pre. Quicken Spell, Spellcraft 23 ranks] Apply Quicken spell does not cost aditional Sp to spells of lvl 0 to 3 (maybe 4, overlaps and doesn't stack with other reductions)

Bane Of Enemies: [Pre. Ranger lvl 12] Any weapon you wield against one of your favored enemies is treated as an epic bane weapon for that creature type (Only for Ranger favored enemies, not the ones from ED or Prestige Enhancements. Doesn't stack with other banes lesser, normal, greater, epic the weapon already have)

Dexterous Wil: [Pre. Dex 25 (maybe less?), slippery mind class feature] when targeted by an effect that requires a Will saving throw, you may make a Reflex save instead to avoid the effect (evasion is not applicable).

Enhance Spell [Metamagic]:[Pre. Empower or Maximize spell] The damage cap for your spells increases by 10 dice (for spells that deal a number of dice of damage equal to caster level) or by 5 dice (for spells that deal a number of dice of damage equal to half caster level). spell will cost 25 more spell points while this feat is activated (maybe 15 or 20?) . This feat has no effect on spells that don’t specifically deal a number of dice of damage equal to the caster’s level or half level, even if the spell’s effect is largely dictated by the caster’s level.

Fast Healing: [Pre. Con 21] Each minute you heal (positive energy) for 3d20+lvl

Huge Wild Shape: [Pre. Druid lvl 18] While in any Wolf or Bear form gain +16 to Strength, –4 to Dexterity, +8 Constitution and –2 to attack bonus and Armor Class. (size bonus and penalty)

Improved Metamagic: [Pre. Four metamagic feats, Spellcraft 23 ranks] Reduce all metamagic feat cost by 2 spell points (can be taken multiple times, it stack but won't reduce metamagic cost to less than 2, meaning Eschew Materials is not afected)

Epic Prowess: [Pre. None] Multisector, Choose one; Ranged power, Melee power or universal spell power, you gain +3 to the selected power for each epic lvl you have (Can not taken again, for another power)

Also I think you may change the next epic feats:

Epic Toughness: [Pre. Con 21,Toughness] This feat increases the characters maximum hit points by 3 for each character lvl

Epic Damage Reduction: [Pre. None] +3PPR for each epic lvl (Also add a magical version that grant MRR)

Epic Spell Critical Damage: [Pre. Caster lvl 12(?)] +3% Critical Damage with Spells for each epic lvl (Or +1% Critical Damage with Spells for each lvl?)


Well thats all for now, I have more ideas, but this ones seems more fitting to the thread. Thanks for your time and for reading.

-S.D.-

[Zoda]

Magic Missile has NO DC or Spell Pen and it caps at Lvl 9...we could add +10,000,000 CL to it and it wouldn't change anything

Seriously though Shiradi casters aren't anywhere near as good as they claim they are.

Limited to the Arcane Sphere as I am currently I love me some Draconic Incarnation even on a terribly build wizard its awesome...when they move Caster levels to Epic it will be a hard choice between DI and Divine Crusader for a Fire Savant, for a Wizard Shadowdancer would be an interesting choice.

Oh and whilst I think the claims that mvoing caster levels to Epic levels will result in builds like Sorc10/Cleric10 are ridiculous a simple solution will quash those complaints...only allow you to boost the Caster Level of one of your classes (can choose during any ED AP reset). Problem solved.

It caps at lvl 9. And to cap it, you'll need 1 wizard level if this change goes live. And you get it both as SLA and as spell. And you get a free feat. And the twisted energy burst will have +8 level on it too etc. Builds like 18 fvs 1 monk 1 wizard will be possible with grandmaster stance and double capped MM, while still maintaining max wisdom. Imo, that's just stupid. And I'm sure that's just the tip of the iceberg, I was never really into shiradi, I actually stopped playing caster after the enhancement pass when they destroyed what was left of pale masters.

If epic levels would only give +1 clvl on your dominant class' spells, I'd like it. I also don't understand why don't we get the 3USP per epic level if we get MP and RP.

But my solution to casters not being strong enough would be the nerfing of dominant melee classes as the game is way too easy as it is.... but that's me.

[Silverleafeon]

still blocking off the tier 6 abilities that are critical on some builds. nerf is a nerf. the place is a ghostown now. why tick off more players. I could care less if someone has an uber build. if they are having fun they are playing and paying the game. That means the game goes on and does not become IC and fold.

Levels and Tiers are too totally different things.

We currently have only 5 levels, yet access 6 tiers.

So nothing would be nerfed, as that formula leaves everything we have alone, it only adds more at higher levels (adding +4 points to spend in tree each level starting at level 26...)

[Silverleafeon]

I think that is the big question.

Does any class really need more than +5 caster levels while in the appropriate destiny in a way that would not be overpowerful?

Or is the typical casters true concern about how much spell pen they have?




It would be very possible to move Caster Levels away from Epic Destiny Levels (which could change someday) and place them upon Epic Destiny Innates (bottom row which is very unlikely to ever increase). That would solidify them forever (they could total +5 were they are desired).

It would be very possible to add:

Each Epic Level above 26 now adds +1 spell pen.




Please notice this is the initial Epic Destiny Design of the possibly first ED ever made. Draconic and Magistar are written much differently. Perhaps I have been wrong in saying they are incorrectly written, perhaps they are the ones that are correctly written and the rest are wrong?

[slarden]

It would be very possible to add:

Each Epic Level above 26 now adds +1 spell pen.



I like this idea. Just auto grant a stacking +1 spell penentration feat starting @ 26.

I also think caster level needs to be looked - we shouldn't just ignore it because people hate shiradi. Although I think the original proposal definitely over-rewarded dc dumping builds that splashed for SLAs and used Shiradi.

[SirValentine]

Do we even need more Caster Levels? Or is it only Spell Pen that we really want?


Caster levels. Spell Pen is only part of it. If they ever get around to addressing the hit-dice-bloat issue, Abjuration spells (e.g., Dismissal), and dispelling (Dispel Magic, etc.) are also based off caster levels, and don't work at all in Epic Elite for the same reason Spell Pen is so hard to get high enough in Epic Elite.

[Tyrande]

To clarify some thoughts: We're not outright abandoning (or committing to) any of the proposed changes. However, it's clear these aren't widely popular, "no-brainer" changes that we can simply put into DDO. The discussion should and will continue; albeit at a slower rate, and since this is definitely not targeted for Update 26, in the near future we'll be focusing more on Update 26.

The time frame in my mind is "can we and should do this today or this week", and the answer to that is "no". I'm sure different people have their own thoughts on "not right now" means, and my mind is focused on extremely near term goals and deadlines, which I'm probably expressing poorly.

If there had been wide support and few points of contention (aka: legitimate things we should consider), we would have considered moving faster on changes. But there's quite a lot of feedback to consider, and it's worth exploring more options before touching anything (which has both positive and negative aspects).

Thank you Vargouille, for your bravery in communicating to the community regarding the magic CL issue in Epics and DPS in epic.

Magic, it should be well thought out and well prepared; unlike hack and slash. Most DDO players also do not use tactical feats unless being told to.

Thank you for your pro-activeness and thank you for the thought.

Perhaps, its time to discuss with Severlin and fit your long term plans regarding magic and put a schedule together?

Actually I do not mind having no caster levels from ED at level 20, as long as the environment, i.e. monsters in Epic Elite level 20 quests are appropriately tuned. i.e. Turn the Tides, or any quests involving monsters or NPCs with spell resistance. Or perhaps a -5 to -10 SR across the board?

[Tyrande]

Of course, this also makes other spells that depends on caster levels work, like dispels, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, and banishment, dismissal, etc.

I believe the banishment and dismissal type spells are going to be important for the upcoming Epic Vale of Twilight pack.

[Failedlegend]

If epic levels would only give +1 clvl on your dominant class' spells, I'd like it. I also don't understand why don't we get the 3USP per epic level if we get MP and RP.


I repeat


a simple solution will quash those complaints...only allow you to boost the Caster Level of one of your classes. Problem solved.

With the caveat that it grants it to your dominant SPELLCASTING class...I don't want my Monk9/Druid9/X2 to be granting spell levels to my Monk...either that or use the ED rules, make it a drop down choice of any class you have 6 or more levels of (same requirement as you need to start in relevant ED sphere)

As for USP I'd like to see that added to UMD like spellcraft grants elemental damage, USP is always going to be behind specializing in a single element but a certain upcoming class is focused on USP but has no way of boosting it (since USP doesn't "stack" with specific boosts)

[Tyrande]

another idea: implement:

Assay Spell Resistance (4th lvl Cleric, FvS, Sorcerer, Wizard, Warlock? Druid?)
Divination
Level: Cleric 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
Components : V, S
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Taget: You
Duration 1 round/level

Finishing the spell, you eyes glow with a pale blue radiance, and you understand how to
overcome your foe's resistance to your magic.

This spell gives you a +10 bonus on caster level checks to overcome the spell resistance of creatures. Assay resistance is effective; and you must be able to see the creature when you cast the spell.

[Gralhota]

Some response ?

[Failedlegend]

Some response ?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ac/d9/d0/acd9d09a20fc616af451266e9f63503e.jpg

Seriously though no idea what your asking buddy...also this is a thread about moving ED Caster levels to Epic levels nothing to do with melees

[Angelic-council]

Deleted.. accidental double post.

[Angelic-council]

I think that is the big question.

Does any class really need more than +5 caster levels while in the appropriate destiny in a way that would not be overpowerful?

Or is the typical casters true concern about how much spell pen they have?




It would be very possible to move Caster Levels away from Epic Destiny Levels (which could change someday) and place them upon Epic Destiny Innates (bottom row which is very unlikely to ever increase). That would solidify them forever (they could total +5 were they are desired).

It would be very possible to add:

Each Epic Level above 26 now adds +1 spell pen.




Please notice this is the initial Epic Destiny Design of the possibly first ED ever made. Draconic and Magistar are written much differently. Perhaps I have been wrong in saying they are incorrectly written, perhaps they are the ones that are correctly written and the rest are wrong?

I like the idea of +1 spell pen per level starting at lv26 (very reasonable).

However, I'm not sure if more spell pen are needed. I know people say it's hard, but it's possible to get spell pen of (52) at lv21, which works on nearly everything except constructs (EE). You can get even higher number with + 7 spell pen item.

The real issue is, caster damage scaling.. and extra caster level bonus outside of main destinies. People should lose great power when leaving their main destiny. So, why not add critical multiplier into each ED core, starting from Draconic, Magister (only accessible if you have wizard, sorcerer or bard life lv12 and higher). Shiradi (gain critical multiplier if you have druid, barbarian, ranger lv12 and higher). Sure, critical multiplier should differ depends on what class and destiny you choose. But, this would limit the multi class and ultimate trade off to me. So, a sorcerer that wants + 3 DC from exalted angel will get his DC, but without lv12 FvS, paladin or cleric, he would lose crit damage that could affect his performance. Still, it's not like people not gonna play that ED right? How is that look. I mean, we all know how powerful sorcerers are in exalted angel or wizard in shiradi . If we going to buff caster performance in epics, we should do so with limitation. And not like "guys, it's free! come and get it).

[Gralhota]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/ac/d9/d0/acd9d09a20fc616af451266e9f63503e.jpg

Seriously though no idea what your asking buddy...also this is a thread about moving ED Caster levels to Epic levels nothing to do with melees






Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
Your proposal (and many others) would be stronger & more powerful. It's not immediately clear it would be better. Taking those feats would be a tradeoff, which is one reason it's a safer change. Clearly you don't want to make the tradeoff, and just want the power, but that's a different different conversation.

I wonder what the trade-off melees do.

IC x IC
Cleave x Cleave ?

[Angelic-council]

deleted.

[Angelic-council]

Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille View Post
Your proposal (and many others) would be stronger & more powerful. It's not immediately clear it would be better. Taking those feats would be a tradeoff, which is one reason it's a safer change. Clearly you don't want to make the tradeoff, and just want the power, but that's a different different conversation.

I wonder what the trade-off melees do.

IC x IC
Cleave x Cleave ?

Funny isn't. I was shocked when saw that. We don't want pure power. We all want to be strong, but there has to be a tradeoff. Not in a form of losing feats. Pure casrers are lacking in DPS power compared to Melee or shiradi. His proposal only buff shiradi and weaken DC casters, who are in need of a help.. Just add crit multiplier into ED core and make it limited to multi class and don't give anything if you leave main destiny (extra bonus). If they can't do that and still think people need to pay something.. why even bother with casters spell scaling.

[Gralhota]

Funny isn't. I was shocked when saw that. We don't want pure power. We all want to be strong, but there has to be a tradeoff. Not in a form of losing feats. Pure casrers are lacking in DPS power compared to Melee or shiradi. His proposal only buff shiradi and weaken DC casters, who are in need of a help.. Just add crit multiplier into ED core and make it limited to multi class and don't give anything if you leave main destiny (extra bonus). If they can't do that and still think people need to pay something.. why even bother with casters spell scaling.


We Casters (majority) are asking just a balance and not to be the most powerful.

And, common sense would say that magic users tend to be more powerful. The trade-off comes with the mana bar, limited resources, DC system win or lose etc ..

Now the reality shows us that in Epic Elite:

U need to play stupidly first farming equipment and lives.

Your magic damage is irrelevant.

Your library is so vast that u always uses the same magic, not even to vary between schools because the difference in DC is at least 10.

The mobs have special defenses only against casters, nullifying his spells or reducing its effects to anything, try to charm mobs to fight in his favor. He looks at u sends you a kiss and back to hit him right away.

The search for the largest possible DC is so oppressive that everyone has the same build and distribution enhancments, the problem is not be the best in some aspect, the problem is you become a complete failure for not following a cake recipe.

Now if I could understand the trades off the melee I would stop complaining and come back to play.

[Silverleafeon]

The proper math is (please correct me if I am wrong, thank you):

Old DPS = [({Damage X} * {Spellpower} * {% to not crit}) + ({Damage X} * {Spellpower} * {% to crit} * {200% + Existing Bonuses to Crit Damage})]

Initial New DPS = [({Damage X} * {Spellpower} * {% to not crit}) + ({Damage X} * {Spellpower} * {% to crit} * {200% + New Bonuses to Crit Damage})]

New DPS Feat Tax Loss = [({50% loss from non evasion foes} * {Initial DPS} * {5% * DC lost from feat tax} * {% of non evasion foes}) + ({100% DPS loss from evasion foes} {Initial DPS} * {5% * DC lost from feat tax} * {% of evasion foes})]

True New DPS = Intitial DPS - DPS Feat Tax

Percentage of Increase in Power = {True New DPS / Old DPS}



Well it took me long enough to fix that formula, let us see how it goes...


My Cleric 15 / Favored Soul 5 could exceed 500 base spell power and 50% spell crit while questing w/o resorting to cheap tricks (empower and maximize adds another 225)


Divine Wrath does 56d6 damage with saving throw for a level 28 toon according to DDO wiki.
Assuming all 1d6s roll a 5.



Old DPS = [({56d6} * {500+225 Spellpower} * {50% to not crit}) + ({56d6} * {500+225 Spellpower} * {50 % to crit} * {200% + 0 Existing Bonuses to Crit Damage})]

Initial New DPS = [({56d6} * {500+225 Spellpower} * {50 % to not crit}) + ({56d6} * {500+225 Spellpower} * {50% to crit} * {200% + 40 New Bonuses to Crit Damage})]

Old ~ 885 + 1770 = 2655 {or 1327 when saved against}

New ~ 885 + 2124 = 3009 {or 1504 when saved against}

New DPS Feat Tax Loss = [({50% loss from non evasion foes} * {Initial DPS} * {5% * DC lost from feat tax} * {% of non evasion foes}) + ({100% DPS loss from evasion foes} {Initial DPS} * {5% * DC lost from feat tax} * {% of evasion foes})]

Assuming 20% of foes present have evasion {which would vary a lot}

Reducing full damage by {.05 * .8} + {.1 * .2} = 6% for feat tax loss of 2 DC = 180

True New DPS = Intitial DPS - DPS Feat Tax

3009 - 180 = 2829 {assuming all foes failed save vs initial DCs which would be untrue}

Percentage of Increase in Power = {True New DPS / Old DPS}

2829 / 2655 = 107% {numbers rounded slightly in places, assumes good DCs}

Actual increase in power of 7%.

The reason I called this lame is because monsters increase more than 7% in hit points between level 20 and 28, perhaps that was rude of me, after all this is just an offered beginning.



If you remove the feat tax, or you cast a spell like Ruin (assuming 50% crit rate which is very high) then the DPS increase is 13%
{assuming that the monsters never ever make a save, otherwise your DPS increase will be cut in half (or less with evasion monsters) as per the saving throw situations}.

So if the monsters save vs a spell of your half the time, and the feat tax is removed then this number will be reduced by 50% * 50% down to a mere 9%

Now this number interests me a lot more. So yes the often mentioned, can we have this in such a way as to not give up our DCs (no feat tax please) seems like a good request to me.


Of course as I said on the Player's Council last year, my biggest complaint about Casters is running out of spell points and being unable to turn metamagics on for anything other than SLAs. And as a player my mana conservation is quite good, often with half a blue left while others are empty.

[MonadRebelion]

Funny isn't. I was shocked when saw that. We don't want pure power. We all want to be strong, but there has to be a tradeoff. Not in a form of losing feats. Pure casrers are lacking in DPS power compared to Melee or shiradi. His proposal only buff shiradi and weaken DC casters, who are in need of a help.. Just add crit multiplier into ED core and make it limited to multi class and don't give anything if you leave main destiny (extra bonus). If they can't do that and still think people need to pay something.. why even bother with casters spell scaling.

The proposal won't just boost shiradi's. The proposal would likely boost wizards in general. Other casters won't be gaining much if anything as far as I can tell. The main problem with the proposal as far as I can seen is that shiradi and multiclass casters win by a wide margin on this deal. The biggest loses here are clerics from what I can tell.

As far as the tradeoff issue goes, it is kind of a joke. Barbs, bards, paladins, rogues, repeater builds, and armor wearers got pretty big buffs with no trade off. It's really messed up how the devs talk about tradeoffs whenever it comes to caster buffs. They bring up this idea that spells somehow give casters versatility that non-casters lack. Given the kinds of buffs handed out recently and the availability to every useful buff via scrolls I don't see what the non-casters are lacking. Casters are becoming the travel agents of DDO.

I have been opposed to all the buffing from day one. I thought nerfing over-performing builds would have been better. At this point, I feel that the call for nerfs is a lost cause. The only thing to do is to try and influence buffing in the best direction (even though I think it's bad for the game).

[fmalfeas]

Varg, I just thought of a very much 'safe' side of buff that doesn't feat-tax anyone, and is weighted heavily on the side of pure casters.

A 'freebie' feat when you take a level of a pure caster class that gives you 1% crit multiplier per level of that class. It would be weaker for multis (reflecting the tradeoff they made when they took levels in classes that aren't full casters, or casters at all). It would never be bigger than 20%, and while it would affect heroics, in general, pure casters have no trouble in heroics outside of elite, where the only trouble they have is SP supply, or getting caught with a trap. And it wouldn't help with the trap bit.

As for the complaints people have made about 1 level of wiz giving CL 9 full powered Magic Missile...eh, they've gotta be level 28 before they get that, so I don't see it as an issue. Especially since I've seen lots of mobs in ToEE casting Nightshield.

[Silverleafeon]

Of course, this also makes other spells that depends on caster levels work, like dispels, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, and banishment, dismissal, etc.

I believe the banishment and dismissal type spells are going to be important for the upcoming Epic Vale of Twilight pack.


Good points.

I have tried using Banishment in ToEE seeing as there are a ton of banishable critters in that quest with very small success rates. Eventually I decided cometfall might be better atm.

However, I did not have the proper school items / spell focus.
Yet the listed DCs seem pretty high.

I could not get any information on whether there is immunity situations inside that quest.
Have not done the quest as much as I would like yet.


And


Some response ?

Hmm...a pure paladin only get four 4th level spells...

Zeal ~ must take
Holy Sword ~ must take
Deathward ~ rather important
Cure Serious Wounds ~ handy to have


Dude, that Paladin must memorize lesser restoration instead of restoration.
That is the price one must pay for glory!

[Ape_Man]

Casters (and by casters, I mean real casters and not that Shiradi garbage that only exists because it wasn't nerfed in time) DPS issue is mostly Red and Purple names. There's some other issues but that's where the problem lies and that's what any solutions should address.

Not sure if this is an issue or not, but since armor up a caster's value has dropped in a group. The CC role simply isn't needed at all except in stuff like EE MOD. Melees aren't the delicate flowers they used to be, remember when the dance ball failed in EE DA right after MoTU shipped? Now we laugh it off.

Big issue with this game, and I mean Godzilla big, is how tough melees are. In the pre MoTU days, when AC was the defense, you used to have to take MASSIVE DPS sacrifices to get good AC. Now? It's a joke, my barbarian in EEs can surround herself with mobs in the "toughest" content in the game and just cleave and she's more unkillable than my ranger or paladin used to be in at 85 AC (which used to be a lot) in Elite Amrath quests.

I'm sorry, massive amounts of defense should come with an offensive sacrifice. It doesn't and that's broken as hell.

I won't even get started on ranged toons.

Turbines solution to this? Champions. Still can't kill my melees but they'll occasionally one-shot my wizard. :)

This is why I drink.

[Holymunchkin]

Casters (and by casters, I mean real casters and not that Shiradi garbage that only exists because it wasn't nerfed in time) DPS issue is mostly Red and Purple names. There's some other issues but that's where the problem lies and that's what any solutions should address.

Not sure if this is an issue or not, but since armor up a caster's value has dropped in a group. The CC role simply isn't needed at all except in stuff like EE MOD. Melees aren't the delicate flowers they used to be, remember when the dance ball failed in EE DA right after MoTU shipped? Now we laugh it off.

Big issue with this game, and I mean Godzilla big, is how tough melees are. In the pre MoTU days, when AC was the defense, you used to have to take MASSIVE DPS sacrifices to get good AC. Now? It's a joke, my barbarian in EEs can surround herself with mobs in the "toughest" content in the game and just cleave and she's more unkillable than my ranger or paladin used to be in at 85 AC (which used to be a lot) in Elite Amrath quests.

I'm sorry, massive amounts of defense should come with an offensive sacrifice. It doesn't and that's broken as hell.

Turbines solution to this? Champions. Still can't kill my melees but they'll occasionally one-shot my wizard. :)

This is why I drink.

Man your DCs must be pretty bad. Casters are OP!!!!!

[Silverleafeon]

Varg, I just thought of a very much 'safe' side of buff that doesn't feat-tax anyone, and is weighted heavily on the side of pure casters.

A 'freebie' feat when you take a level of a pure caster class that gives you 1% crit multiplier per level of that class.
Sounds interesting.

I assume you mean +1 Crit Spell Damage per class level of classes with magical training?

+1 crit chance would be a bit much.


I was hoping for something to scale in late epics...but interesting...

[Angelic-council]

We Casters (majority) are asking just a balance and not to be the most powerful.

And, common sense would say that magic users tend to be more powerful. The trade-off comes with the mana bar, limited resources, DC system win or lose etc ..

Now the reality shows us that in Epic Elite:

U need to play stupidly first farming equipment and lives.

Your magic damage is irrelevant.

Your library is so vast that u always uses the same magic, not even to vary between schools because the difference in DC is at least 10.

The mobs have special defenses only against casters, nullifying his spells or reducing its effects to anything, try to charm mobs to fight in his favor. He looks at u sends you a kiss and back to hit him right away.

The search for the largest possible DC is so oppressive that everyone has the same build and distribution enhancments, the problem is not be the best in some aspect, the problem is you become a complete failure for not following a cake recipe.

Now if I could understand the trades off the melee I would stop complaining and come back to play.

Yeah, I'm curious what devs gonna do.

[Silverleafeon]

To clarify some thoughts: We're not outright abandoning (or committing to) any of the proposed changes. However, it's clear these aren't widely popular, "no-brainer" changes that we can simply put into DDO. The discussion should and will continue; albeit at a slower rate, and since this is definitely not targeted for Update 26, in the near future we'll be focusing more on Update 26.

The time frame in my mind is "can we and should do this today or this week", and the answer to that is "no". I'm sure different people have their own thoughts on "not right now" means, and my mind is focused on extremely near term goals and deadlines, which I'm probably expressing poorly.

If there had been wide support and few points of contention (aka: legitimate things we should consider), we would have considered moving faster on changes. But there's quite a lot of feedback to consider, and it's worth exploring more options before touching anything (which has both positive and negative aspects).

Well written answer when you think about it.
Good lucki with coding Warlock, hope to enjoy it on live.

Thanks for reading feedback here sooner or later.

[Vulkoorex]

DC casting in epics has gone the way of the dodo. I'm going to TR mine into a Barbarian or Paladin. Pretty obvious that's what DDO wants everyone to play as. How else can you explain Epic Ward?

[Iriale]

Of course as I said on the Player's Council last year, my biggest complaint about Casters is running out of spell points and being unable to turn metamagics on for anything other than SLAs. And as a player my mana conservation is quite good, often with half a blue left while others are empty.
I never have been on the player's council (and I never will be), but this is my main problem too playing spellcasters. And yeah, I'm *very* careful on the use of my mana. An old habit of playing pnp D&D for decades, where you have to reserve your spells until the moment really matters. I yet think we need a little boost of dps in top of the problem of mana efficiency, but not a big boost (some classes need a little more help, but in general, if we could use our metamagic feats without to be drained to the bottom, a lot of problems were solved…)


Of course, this also makes other spells that depends on caster levels work, like dispels, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, and banishment, dismissal, etc.

I believe the banishment and dismissal type spells are going to be important for the upcoming Epic Vale of Twilight pack.
well, yes and not. The problem with those spells is bigger than a few caster levels. The problem is the mobs have a CR stupid for the mechanic of those spells. If a mob has a CR 60+ (with the same CL of 60+) don't matters if you have a CL of 25 or 30--- the difference is too big anyways. For those spells we need that the CL of mobs were the same (aprox) of quest CR (e.g, a level 26 quest should have mobs with caster level around this 26, some a little more, some a little less… but not a lot more!!) Caster level is not spell resistance--- there are not a lot of ways of increase it.

For the same, we need that for spells as banishment or dismissal, which work against the hit dice of mobs, the npcs have a "virtual" hit dice for magical combat. The mobs can have a 60+ hit dices for their stats (I guess that hit dice give them a lot of automatic stats), but for those spells they should have a virtual hit dice--- or never, never, never those spells will work. In pnp we don't fight against monsters with 40 hit dices above of us! In pnp a boss have 4 hit dices more! The trash in pnp have less hit dices than player characters! Those spells… need a virtual hit dice on ddo.

Dispel magic line, additionally, need more functionally. In pnp are spells very useful. You strip enemy's spells. You dispel o destroy magical traps. Disjunction destroy all magic -yes, DESTROY. Here, for do something with a spell ward, you need use your entire blue bar on disjunctions. lol. Ridiculous--- and it's neither useful nor practical.



Well written answer when you think about it.
Good lucki with coding Warlock, hope to enjoy it on live.

Thanks for reading feedback here sooner or later.
Well, in truth is bad moment for create the warlock lol. Convert the warlock in a primary spellcaster with free dps when all others traditional spellcasters have problems now is scream for balance problems. It's very difficult balance warlock in this situation. I yet don't understand why warlock- which in pnp is not a primary spellcaster, and here is competing with 2 primary arcane spellcasters with the same niche (we don't need a third primary arcane spellcaster, there is not niche for a third lol)- have been converted in one, and less in this moment. When people is building in lammania for DC casting for warlock instead for eldritch blast, when eldritch blast is the main feature of warlocks and invocations their second feature… mmm…. something is wrong with the actual design of warlock. But-- this doesn't belong to this thread.

[Iriale]

Good points.

Hmm...a pure paladin only get four 4th level spells...

Zeal ~ must take
Holy Sword ~ must take
Deathward ~ rather important
Cure Serious Wounds ~ handy to have


Dude, that Paladin must memorize lesser restoration instead of restoration .
That is the price one must pay for glory!
my pallie don't need memorize restoration. He has greater restoration for enhancements... with his remove disease. don't need use spell points either :p

[Iriale]

Casters (and by casters, I mean real casters and not that Shiradi garbage that only exists because it wasn't nerfed in time) DPS issue is mostly Red and Purple names. There's some other issues but that's where the problem lies and that's what any solutions should address.

Not sure if this is an issue or not, but since armor up a caster's value has dropped in a group. The CC role simply isn't needed at all except in stuff like EE MOD. Melees aren't the delicate flowers they used to be, remember when the dance ball failed in EE DA right after MoTU shipped? Now we laugh it off.

Big issue with this game, and I mean Godzilla big, is how tough melees are. In the pre MoTU days, when AC was the defense, you used to have to take MASSIVE DPS sacrifices to get good AC. Now? It's a joke, my barbarian in EEs can surround herself with mobs in the "toughest" content in the game and just cleave and she's more unkillable than my ranger or paladin used to be in at 85 AC (which used to be a lot) in Elite Amrath quests.

I'm sorry, massive amounts of defense should come with an offensive sacrifice. It doesn't and that's broken as hell.

I won't even get started on ranged toons.

Turbines solution to this? Champions. Still can't kill my melees but they'll occasionally one-shot my wizard. :)

This is why I drink.
yes, CC has lost a lot of his value. Before of melee buffs, melees wanted casters in their parties for CC mobs. Now... they don't need. Nowadays dps rules--- and if you are a specialist build good on CC but bad with dps-- you suck. Sad, but true.

caster' s buffs have lost too his value. Melees got those buffs on gear, and on gear can't be dispelled and last more than spells (compare perma haste on item with the poor duration of spell...) And the magical buffs have not been updated to new system of prr, mrr, etc. The problems with spellcasters are more complex than a simple lack of dps... but i guess that this thread is only for magical dps.

[fmalfeas]

Sounds interesting.

I assume you mean +1 Crit Spell Damage per class level of classes with magical training?

+1 crit chance would be a bit much.


I was hoping for something to scale in late epics...but interesting...

Yeah, that's why I specified multiplier. As to the late epics, part of the reason I came up with the idea was to both assist new characters in their first early epics (I remember when MoTU came out, and my wizzy faced off with the Bebilith at the end of the first ES chain...it was kinda horrible. He was first life, his only tomes were a +2 int, and a +1 con, and didn't have old epic gear.) Also, it gives a base to build from, perhaps with high level gear-based crit multiplier, perhaps a feat, perhaps both.

And of course, when I say pure casters for it, I'm referring to Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Favored Soul, Druid, (and soon to be) Warlock. /Maybe/ bard, but that's a serious maybe...they're still a hybrid, though they lean further on the caster side than a paladin or ranger does.

Note to the devs. I know you guys seem worried about non-boss DPS from casters getting too high. Please, don't worry about that. Against anything that's not red, casters either lock them down and blow them up, or simply instakill them. D&D has a long history of the wizard completely annihilating all the 'mooks' in an eyeblink without so much as mussing his hair once he hits about 6th level. It's the tradeoff for their /extreme/ fragility.

Rogues have the ability to deal with traps, some actual armor (and thus some PRR/MRR), evasion/improved evasion, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and defensive roll along with their brutal single-target sneakattack ability as the trade for their relative fragility at d6 hp and no heavy armor.

Fighters trade-off for their impressive melee output, high HP, and excellent defenses was always that it was basically /all/ they were good for, unless you needed someone threatened.

The old Paladin tradeoff was their code. The 'if you commit an evil act or knowingly associate with evil beings, you immediately lose all paladin powers, becoming a really terrible version of a fighter', and before that it even went so far as to tell the paladins that they not only could only own 1 magical weapon, 1 magical armor, 1 magical shield, 1 'other' magical item, but they also had to tithe all but 10% of the loot they gathered to their church (though they could sorta bypass that...by pooling it up, untouched, and building a fortress-temple/fortress-monastery...but they still weren't able to use it for themselves). In return they got strong melee (obscenely strong against evil things, and ludicriously strong against evil outsiders), excellent defenses, and their array of immunities, and some healing and buffing magic (some of which was powerful and unique to paladins). Oh, and their magic super-horse/dragon/whatever-it-was-they-found.

For clerics, who sat at about 75% of the power of a fighter in melee, and 75% of the power of a wizard in nuking, along with powerful heals, buffs, cures, and utility effects, it was their dogma. If they angered their god...no more spells. Period. They also ran a small risk every time they prayed for their spells, because if their god had something in mind for them, it would just give them the spells they needed for the task it had, regardless of what they actually asked for.

But for wizards (and later, sorcs)? In return for a dizzying array of utility spells, and incredible offensive power in their magic, and the ability to achieve good-to-outstanding defenses (for a VERY brief time) they got terrible HP, armed combat skills of a level sometimes called '20's only', and no armor.

DDO has kept the wizard tradeoff, but when it comes to raw damage, the gain for the trade (by comparison) has become thinner and thinner. In terms of gear, DDO is a Monty Haul campaign...which means we need equivalent level magic. Even loot-wise, we need things that compare to the Robes of the Archmagi (for their level range, the actual ones from tabletop, in DDO, would be trash except for 'classic item collectors').

You removed the caps on some spells already (power words, by tabletop, simply /don't work/ past the highest listed HP, rather than reduced effect), but others retain the old tabletop limits from 3.5. While their non-caster counterparts (weapons) have gone far, far beyond 3.5. A powerful Epic weapon made with the Epic Level Handbook would be +6 with 4d6 elemental damage, and maybe count as +10 versus one specific creature type (like human, or devil, or demon). In DDO...well...look at our loot.

The melee has been scaling up hard for quite some time, while the casters have been scaling up (via spellpower only) much more slowly, while making little to no gains in defense.

If we're going to remain the fragile ones, we /should/ clear trash like it wasn't even there. That's the tradeoff for being so fragile.

Before anyone comments about displacement, remember that True Seeing, Tremorsense, and Blindsense/Blindsight can defeat that. And True Seeing is getting more and more common as we get into higher stuff.

[Ape_Man]

The problems with spellcasters are more complex than a simple lack of dps... but i guess that this thread is only for magical dps.

True, but far to nuanced of a thing that most of the players/developers simply won't get unless they've been playing on a high-level for a long period of time. Any developer around for when Armor Class was useful would never have considered Armor Up.

I'm more concerned the developers will somehow make things worse if they get too complicated. I'll make a few small suggestions . . .

- Make DOTs better. Red/Purple DPS is pitiful compared to even bad melees. This is low-hanging fruit and EASY to adjust. Caster DPS on trash is acceptable as long as we can make helpless (see below).
- Consider examining the cool-downs on spells. My DC 77 Necro wizard cannot compete with a good cleaving toon even in situations where her DCs are no fail simply because spells cannot be cast fast enough to keep up.
- Stop adding quest mechanics that are plain hostile to DC casters who at this point aren't even remotely over-powered. ToEE is just insanely stupid with a few infuriating mechanics. Entire rooms with spontaneous UN-DISPELABLE Deathward AND FOM is just wrong. Serious, why was this added? Barbs can just gather the whole room, cleave and not die. A caster has to to cheesy nonesense to make it through that. The end fight in part two has Hezrous - big dumb hezrous - with insanely high WILL saves. I can understand them being tough to finger but at an 80 INT they should get caught in my danceball. But that's okay, Barbarians can spend 2 AP for Knockdown immunity and just cleave their way victory.

(NOTE: I play both a caster and a barb, not hating on barbs, but have to bring up how easy stuff is for some classes whereas others played by the same player are far behind.)
- Re-examine champion spike damage. Once again, this is no threat to a barb or pallie, but one-shots on robed wizards still happen and it's very annoying, especially in a room where every single mob has both FOM and Deathward for no apparent reason :) Think about PRR bypass instead of fort bypass and not have them break 700-800 on a hit.

If you need to find me tonight I'll be cleaving on my barbarian, it's what Turbine wants me to do.

[Ape_Man]

DC casting in epics has gone the way of the dodo. I'm going to TR mine into a Barbarian or Paladin. Pretty obvious that's what DDO wants everyone to play as. How else can you explain Epic Ward?

Epic ward is fine, insta-killing Orange names was silly when we could do that and if Charms worked in EE the game would be hilariously easy.

The "entire room gets FOM and Deathward" buff like Oprah giving away free cars is infuriating.

[Silverleafeon]

The whole augment of Wizards have more feats to spare fails, because ~


Wizards get 5 bonuses feats (if they reject monk/fighter splashes for evasion/heavy armor).

The should be functioning in at least 3 of the schools:

Spell Schools

Abjuration ~ banishment
Conjuration ~ web
Divination ~ worthless
Enchantment ~ disco ball
Evocation ~ fireball
Illusion ~ Phantasmal
Necromancy ~ finger
Transmutation ~ flesh to stone


The Devs created Mark of Death which is a great raid, but it requires a wizard with Flesh to Stone to complete, or totally uber melee DPS.


So, 3 schools = 6 heroic feats using up a lot of feats from this bonus feat list:

Bonus Wizard feats:

Augment Summoning
Empower Spell
Enlarge Spell
Eschew Materials
Extend Spell
Heighten Spell
Improved Mental Toughness
Maximize Spell
Mental Toughness
Quicken Spell
Spell Focus (but not Greater)



Question: Why not Greater Spell Focus?

[Lonnbeimnech]

The whole augment of Wizards have more feats to spare fails, because ~


Wizards get 5 bonuses feats

Which is 5 more than sorc...

[Iriale]

Which is 5 more than sorc...
It's true that wizzies have more feats than a sorc, but too it's true that sorc are specialists that use fewer schools. DDO has removed SR from damage spells, so sorc only need spell penetration for enchantament spells. I don't say that sorcs are not tight on feats (no spellcaster has too many feats --- even the wizard, since as a generalist needs to embrace more), but they need fewer feats than a wizzie for work fine in his niche. Indeed, I think no class, except the fighter, is not tight on feats. Melees builds too have a lot of mandatory feats that leave little room for customization.

[Failedlegend]

Which is 5 more than sorc...

So what, Sorcs are pure blasters and unlike Wizards they have Savant to reflect this , they don't care about SR because the majority of attack spells are unaffected by it, if you want to be a CC'r play a Wizard.


Melees builds too have a lot of mandatory feats that leave little room for customization.

Lucky melee builds, ranged has FAR more feat requirements mainly because archers can't hit the broadside of a Barn until they pick up PBS and Precise Shot because otherwise their arrows just bounce of of anything nearby instead of their target, whereas melee's can run around slashing their swords through rocks, people, etc. without having to worry about it stopping their attacks.

Ranged needs to be reworked badly, we've finally gotten to a respectable attack rate (mainly because stuff like haste actually works now) we just need to rectify the feat situation. 3 Combat feats like every other style (Basic, Improved and Greater) a couple tactical feats (Probably just various "called shots" ie. Leg Shot = Slowed Movement) and some Cleave like effects (Fan Shot & Arrow Rain)

[Ape_Man]

So what, Sorcs are pure blasters and unlike Wizards they have Savant to reflect this , they don't care about SR because the majority of attack spells are unaffected by it, if you want to be a CC'r play a Wizard.

If you wan to do a ton more damage on said sorc, you're gonna want your mass-hold to land.

[Enoach]

If you wan to do a ton more damage on said sorc, you're gonna want your mass-hold to land.

There is some truth. Any effect that can make the target helpless means more damage. Of course this is not available to Boss fights (Red/Purple)

As a Wizard I also employ this tactic of Mass Hold + Nuke. Overall its cheaper to cast these two spells then it is to cast multiple nukes.

[SirValentine]

- Make DOTs better. Red/Purple DPS is pitiful compared to even bad melees. This is low-hanging fruit and EASY to adjust.


/signed. Please upgrade from pitiful at least up to bad, maybe even all the way to mediocre.



- Consider examining the cool-downs on spells. My DC 77 Necro wizard cannot compete with a good cleaving toon even in situations where her DCs are no fail simply because spells cannot be cast fast enough to keep up.


Or nerf back some of the over-buff to DPS. (Or...sigh...make the mobs even bigger bags of meat.)

The people who talk about how OP insta-kill casters are, are living in the past. (And even in the past, it was still only versus, trash, not bosses, as per above.) The super-high melee DPS output available lately kills trash faster than an insta-killer can, without requiring SP, and with vastly better boss DPS, too.

Really, I don't mind having low boss DPS if I can make a good contribution elsewhere, such as trash killing. And it used to be that way. Now, DC casters are still vastly worse at boss DPS, and but have become relatively worse at trash-killing, too.

[SirValentine]

...if Charms worked in EE the game would be hilariously easy.


Before they nerfed it, I used to use charming in old-school Epic, and, though viable, it was not "hilariously easy".

Mob hit-point-versus-damage ratio is far, far different than players. You know how long it takes for one Epic mob to kill another? Sheesh.

[MonadRebelion]

Before they nerfed it, I used to use charming in old-school Epic, and, though viable, it was not "hilariously easy".

Mob hit-point-versus-damage ratio is far, far different than players. You know how long it takes for one Epic mob to kill another? Sheesh.

Indeed, you also get some perspective on how long it takes monsters to attack. It feels like they are so slow when you are standing around waiting for them to attack one another. I would to know what it would be like if they attacked as fast as we do.

[esojiul]

/signed. Please upgrade from pitiful at least up to bad, maybe even all the way to mediocre.



Or nerf back some of the over-buff to DPS. (Or...sigh...make the mobs even bigger bags of meat.)

The people who talk about how OP insta-kill casters are, are living in the past. (And even in the past, it was still only versus, trash, not bosses, as per above.) The super-high melee DPS output available lately kills trash faster than an insta-killer can, without requiring SP, and with vastly better boss DPS, too.

Really, I don't mind having low boss DPS if I can make a good contribution elsewhere, such as trash killing. And it used to be that way. Now, DC casters are still vastly worse at boss DPS, and but have become relatively worse at trash-killing, too.

dont nerf. 5 year ago ppl complain about the classes where out balance , everyone wanted to be a caster. Now ppl complain about paladin.
I think developer have done good you to balance classes. These are my ideas to finished the job, but you can post better ideas to balance classes.

Balance classes
1. Rogue –required add more Dodge to able get max 60%-
2. Monks- required add more Dodge to able get max 60%-
3. FVS-evoke dc +6 cap enhament
4. Sorceress- evoke dc +6 cap enhament
5. Artificer: runearm: dc 20+int+artificer level+ other evoker mod and for dmg: rune arm use 100 of the metamagic
6. Wizard: PAlemaster 4 necro dc cap enhament and for archimage: cap enhament force spell critical multiplier 20%
7. Cleric- heal +60 cap enhament
8. Druid: more shapes air and earth form
9. Fighter (to balance with paladin, because the lack of heal): for kensai: more Dodge to able get 60%- opposite of ppr. For stawart defense- +20ppr more +20armor (more than a paladin)
10. Ranger: required add more Dodge to able get max 60%-
11. Bard-ok (maybe more dodge- 40% max)
12. Paladin –ok
13. Barbarian –ok

After these, the game itself has to return to its balance, my suggestion is a mythical level (cap 30), with mythical reward, imposible to solo. force player again to assume rols. Like tank, healer,cc etc etc.
keep many things as EE, but increase DMG done by monster and traps also make monster move 15% faster etc etc so the quest becomes a challange.

[moo_cow]

Epic ward is fine, insta-killing Orange names was silly when we could do that and if Charms worked in EE the game would be hilariously easy.

The "entire room gets FOM and Deathward" buff like Oprah giving away free cars is infuriating.

That doesn't mean charm should be a useless spell in epics. It should have some merit. I don't think it should last the full 2 + minutes, but it should last more then 10 seconds.

[moo_cow]

The whole augment of Wizards have more feats to spare fails, because ~


Wizards get 5 bonuses feats (if they reject monk/fighter splashes for evasion/heavy armor).

The should be functioning in at least 3 of the schools:

Spell Schools

Abjuration ~ banishment
Conjuration ~ web
Divination ~ worthless
Enchantment ~ disco ball
Evocation ~ fireball
Illusion ~ Phantasmal
Necromancy ~ finger
Transmutation ~ flesh to stone


The Devs created Mark of Death which is a great raid, but it requires a wizard with Flesh to Stone to complete, or totally uber melee DPS.


So, 3 schools = 6 heroic feats using up a lot of feats from this bonus feat list:

Bonus Wizard feats:

Augment Summoning
Empower Spell
Enlarge Spell
Eschew Materials
Extend Spell
Heighten Spell
Improved Mental Toughness
Maximize Spell
Mental Toughness
Quicken Spell
Spell Focus (but not Greater)



Question: Why not Greater Spell Focus?

I used to cc ee mod on my sorc with one feat. No reason to take more than 1 for the twist. You only need spell focus in enchant and necro, evocation is so easy to get a good dc and so is conjuration. Transmutation = 1 feat for ee mod and everything else is a waste.

[moo_cow]

Before they nerfed it, I used to use charming in old-school Epic, and, though viable, it was not "hilariously easy".

Mob hit-point-versus-damage ratio is far, far different than players. You know how long it takes for one Epic mob to kill another? Sheesh.

Agreed with this. Charm was just another way of mitigating damage by having mobs aggro other mobs and having less aggro on yourself. You didn't charm to have them dps others down. Mass hold and dancing ball were obviously better in most cases but you would still charm to reduce the number of foes you were fighting till you whittled the others down. Also because it would last longer then the others cc spells. Save every 20 or so seconds instead of 3 was helpful for those with lower dc's.

[moo_cow]

- Consider examining the cool-downs on spells. My DC 77 Necro wizard cannot compete with a good cleaving toon even in situations where her DCs are no fail simply because spells cannot be cast fast enough to keep up.


Un-nerf wail of the banshee! The game needs a spell pass badly, but that will not solve all our caster problems.

Do you recall what wail used to be like? Targets everything and the cooldown of 5 seconds on a sorc. Okay, maybe too powerful but wail should be buffed again. Killing 6 mobs every 50-60 seconds is lame when we come across a group of 12-20 mobs every single fight. IMO if the spell is going to have a 50-60 second cool down it should be able to target 10 mobs at a time. Or the cooldown should be cut down.

[Eth]

If you wan to do a ton more damage on said sorc, you're gonna want your mass-hold to land.

Suddenly: Unexpected freedom of movement symbols popping over every mobs head.

[IronClan]

What do you know about design. Your idea is worst than silver. I deeply disappointed that this is coming from a player council. I always said so.

Reworking on EDs so that they don't give full power at lv20 would not only drive people away, but it requires coding and time. But for what reason. Many players worked hard to gain their EDs. Those people should get what they deserve. Normal, along with epic normal was specifically designed for first timers. Hard is for those who got the hang of the quest, and elite is for challengers. People play elite because they want more exp and to maintain their BB. And your idea will backstub veteran players, giving them very hard time dealing with EE (EH), but the real problem is much more serious than just "I can't handle EE anymore".

This thread is about magical damage in epics, and you want to nerf everyone, including casters dramatically with your presented idea.

This is the worst aspect of having been on (past tense) the PC, it's ******* ridiculous to constantly bemoan the fact that someone doesn't agree with you and doesn't play the game he same way you do, just because they were on a glorified ******* focus group. Get over yourself please, there are going to be people on the PC who don't value what you value, that look at things differently than you do.

You see me here going "**** they should never have let So-and-So onto the PC that guy just had non stop bad ideas that were counter to what I personally want!" NO why? because everyone's got an opinion, because you aren't going to slap 30 people together and get only ideas you like. Get over it.

Not necessarily directed at you but: Caster levels DO NOT GIVE DC'S*

Most people have no clue how caster level works and that's quite in evidence in this thread. Caster levels in most cases only give Spell Penn, in most cases you ALREADY HAVE YOUR SPELLS AT MAX CASTER LEVEL (at least the spells you use frequently) or you did a bad job designing and gearing your build. Or we're talking about an unusual or seldom used spell that is not one you specialize in that is not maxed because you didn't build for caster levels in that Savant (a Water spell cast by a Fire Savant).

As for game design, my idea works exactly the same as the enhancement system, so being that it follows the same mechanical principles as a professional designed game (and countless other professionally designed games) exactly what basis do you use to call it bad?

Bad idea = it would make your character less powerful in content you already blaze through? So should the game be designed based only on the self centered desires of players who already have all their ED's filled out?

Why do you feel entitled to full Destiny AP's at level 20 off a ETR yet you're not demanding 80 Enhancement points at level 1 off a TR?

Answer that question honestly and maybe we can have a discussion about who knows what about game design, or who has better ideas.

* just stop with the dispell magic nit pick you were about to write OR the heighten interaction

[IronClan]

I'm sorry sometimes Turbine needs to do stuff because the DESIGN OF THE GAME will be better for it because improved design will allow them to not perpetuate the poor design into new systems...

What happens if they keep Caster level tied to Destiny? Well for starters when they increase the Caps on heroic damage spells it will mean that ETR'ing in an off destiny sphere will be EVEN MORE DREADFUL because instead of just missing a little Spell Penn you're now short several hundred damage per SP spent because you left the caster levels in your native sphere.

Right now if they raised the Heroic Damage spell Caps with an Arcane nuker who was going about ETR'ing:

Primal is okay because of Shiradi but you must resort to Spamming Shiradi were you might have prefered to do your normal thing
Martial Sucks for 6 million XP
Divine Sucks for 6 million XP
Arcane is okay because you're +5 Caster levels

12 million XP's of suck 6 million more of maybe suck if you don't like Shiradi and many people do not.

Okay with the proposed Epic levels give 1 (or half) Caster level:
Primal is okay no matter what
Martial you still get full Caster levels and Spell Penn
Divine you still get full Caster levels and Spell Penn
Arcane same

So tabulating that up we have *mumbles some numbers while counting on fingers*:

zero million XP's of suck, and zero million XP's of maybe suck if you don't like Shiradi

Hmmm I'm not sure but I think through the magic of maths we can compare 12 to 18million Suck XP's to *mumbles again* uuuhhh zero and come to the conclusion that off destiny and every other aspect (Such as especially initial filling of ED's on a new character/alt) would be decidedly better or more fun and less suck; with Caster levels in Epic levels instead of tied to the ED you're in.

The reason why ED's should progress and not be fully available the moment you hit level 20 is the same reason you shouldn't get 80 full Enhancement points at level 1 when you TR, just because you "already earned them". ED's were not designed with ETR's in mind. It's not like I'm for losing your ED XP, I am for not being able to access it fully until you're level 25 or so.

YOU GUYS DO NOT NEED FULL ED's OR 5 EXTRA CASTER LEVELS to laugh your way through Spies, Wizking, VON3, Lords of Dust or any of that stuff... You blew through it like WET TISSUE PAPER without any ED's please stop using terrible self serving logic to try and scare Turbine off of correcting design mistakes.

[MonadRebelion]

This is the worst aspect of having been on (past tense) the PC, it's ******* ridiculous to constantly bemoan the fact that someone doesn't agree with you and doesn't play the game he same way you do, just because they were on a glorified ******* focus group. Get over yourself please, embrace the fact that the world is full of people with different views than yours, because insulting someone who sees things differently than you do is no way to go through life.

Not necessarily directed at you but: Caster levels DO NOT GIVE DC'S*

Most people have no clue how caster level works and that's quite in evidence in this thread. Caster levels in most cases only give Spell Penn, in most cases you ALREADY HAVE YOUR SPELLS AT MAX CASTER LEVEL (at least the spells you use frequently) or you did a bad job designing and gearing your build. Or we're talking about an unusual or seldom used spell that is not one you specialize in that is not maxed because you didn't build for caster levels in that Savant (a Water spell cast by a Fire Savant).

As for game design, my idea works exactly the same as the enhancement system, so being that it follows the same mechanical principles as a professional designed game (and countless other professionally designed games) exactly what basis do you use to call it bad?

Bad idea = it would make your character less powerful in content you already blaze through? So should the game be designed based only on the self centered desires of players who already have all their ED's filled out?

Why do you feel entitled to full Destiny AP's at level 20 off a ETR yet you're not demanding 80 Enhancement points at level 1 off a TR?

Answer that question honestly and maybe we can have a discussion about who knows what about game design, or who has better ideas.

* just stop with the dispell magic nit pick you were about to write

I haven't followed this issue too much, but for what it's worth I always thought the ED system was a little wonky. I think if they made it so you had access to limited abilities as you leveled it would have been better. It would have made sense that your destiny should get max power when you get 25. I glanced at some proposal suggesting you shouldn't get max power until 28 or 30 or something like that. That would be worse than the current system in my view. You get your ED at 20 and it goes through 5 levels so cap it out 25. At the same time, I wouldn't say this is a change I'd really push for. The current system doesn't bother me and there are other issues that do, so I'd rather have the devs work on something else.

[MonadRebelion]

What happens if they keep Caster level tied to Destiny? Well for starters when they increase the Caps on heroic damage spells it will mean that ETR'ing in an off destiny sphere will be EVEN MORE DREADFUL because instead of just missing a little Spell Penn you're now short several hundred damage per SP spent because you left the caster levels in your native sphere.

Losing a lot of casting power because you switched destinies is not something I'd label problematic. I'd say that's how the system should work. I'd need more reason than that to be convinced a change is called for.

[IronClan]

Losing a lot of casting power because you switched destinies is not something I'd label problematic. I'd say that's how the system should work. I'd need more reason than that to be convinced a change is called for.

Look first of all I'm not sure I'd push for it that much either EXCEPT that some people in this thread are pushing Caster level = Epic level away from them like a 8 year old pushes a plate of Snot-a-licious Brussel Sprouts, because of the logic that "we would lose 5 spell penn at level 20" which we shouldn't get in the first place if ED's worked like every other progression system in the game (and indeed in almost every other RPG or MMO ever devised). My idea is Bad game design? well then so are 99.9% of all RPG's ever made including DDO's own leveling.

As for switching destinies: The Dev's designed the ED's initially to not be so tied to the class you chose, partially because it more mirrored how D&D PrC's worked, partially because they intended players to progress ALL OF THE DESTINIES, and they didn't want us to necessarily have to drudge through 18million XP in a "Handi-capable" Destiny with massively reduced power. Caster levels should Always have been part of the Epic levels (which we all agree are weak) and not a part of Destinies (which we almost all agree are over powered especially when you get 100% access at level 20 off a ETR) you already lose enough power not having dragon breath (whatever) etc.

Sadly this original intent has been ignored by subsequent Dev's who have made the Destinies even more class/build specific and actually reduced the flexibility of some of them. They have exacerbated what was already unfun and made it even more unfun for those who already TR'ed and don't want to make a new Divine build specifically to do a Divine sphere ETR...

Caster levels being divorced from Destinies helps the situation (especially when they raise the max damage dice caps on heroic damage spells and it becomes even more punitive to be in an off destiny because of the caster levels)

[Nascoe]

I have read most of the discussion here. Thanks everyone who put in all the comparisons of characters DCs etc, very interesting to see, I would be surprised if the Devs didn't gather some new insights at least into how their players think about things.

As for the changeS. I think its good to put caster lvls into epic levels rather than into destinies.

That way your power rises a bit with every level you take to make the levels feel like more than just a counter. And it makes it somewhat less painful to gather XP in non caster destinies, or even "other" casters destinies

Its clear that "just" putting caster levels into the levels doesn't really help give power to higher lvl casters or make them better though, so there needs to be more done.
The argument that everyone needs the spellpower, DCs etc right when they get to lvl 20 feels wrong (does everyone really need that much power for lower lvl quests? Yes they will be harder, but I am not sure that is a bad thing).
I think it would be better to be a bit less powerful at 20 BUT get the opportunity to become MORE powerful at lvl 28 and going to 30.

Why not use the opportunity to give leveling epic lvls a bit more depth though? Instead of every lvl autogranting X melee power, X ranged power and add caster lvls and/or spellpower to it, why not give people a choice? Either give it based on heroic lvl split (that might get complicated?) or even better, just give you the option of picking whether you want melee power, ranged power, Wizard/Sorc/Bard/Druid/Warlock/Cleric/FvS caster lvls + some amount of Uspellpower (or even allow picking which spellpower? So we can pick which we want?). And allow us to pick what skills we want to increase instead of just adding 1 to each.

As for making casting better / more interesting / more rewarding in epic lvls. I see some merit in putting more power in feat choices. Its an option, it lets us choose. And wizards do have a lot of feats. But does it really do much for casters as such? Also is it good balance when casters have to rely on picking feats when melees get far more without having to rely on them?

Personally I think the focus should far more be on finding a good way to make more heroic spells be usable in epic spell casting than on adding a new DoT. Or maybe make epic versions of them you can gain from epic lvls /EDs, that could work as well (again, it could be a choice offered when levelling). Its such a shame that many spells our character learns are not really useful anymore. That might also mean rethinking epic ward to allow a bit more scope for instakills and cc again (lot of testing needed to get that one right, we don't want it too easy either).

[Dungeoner49]

I have read most of the discussion here. Thanks everyone who put in all the comparisons of characters DCs etc, very interesting to see, I would be surprised if the Devs didn't gather some new insights at least into how their players think about things.

As for the changeS. I think its good to put caster lvls into epic levels rather than into destinies.

That way your power rises a bit with every level you take to make the levels feel like more than just a counter. And it makes it somewhat less painful to gather XP in non caster destinies, or even "other" casters destinies

Its clear that "just" putting caster levels into the levels doesn't really help give power to higher lvl casters or make them better though, so there needs to be more done.
The argument that everyone needs the spellpower, DCs etc right when they get to lvl 20 feels wrong (does everyone really need that much power for lower lvl quests? Yes they will be harder, but I am not sure that is a bad thing).
I think it would be better to be a bit less powerful at 20 BUT get the opportunity to become MORE powerful at lvl 28 and going to 30.

Why not use the opportunity to give leveling epic lvls a bit more depth though? Instead of every lvl autogranting X melee power, X ranged power and add caster lvls and/or spellpower to it, why not give people a choice? Either give it based on heroic lvl split (that might get complicated?) or even better, just give you the option of picking whether you want melee power, ranged power, Wizard/Sorc/Bard/Druid/Warlock/Cleric/FvS caster lvls + some amount of Uspellpower (or even allow picking which spellpower? So we can pick which we want?). And allow us to pick what skills we want to increase instead of just adding 1 to each.

As for making casting better / more interesting / more rewarding in epic lvls. I see some merit in putting more power in feat choices. Its an option, it lets us choose. And wizards do have a lot of feats. But does it really do much for casters as such? Also is it good balance when casters have to rely on picking feats when melees get far more without having to rely on them?

Personally I think the focus should far more be on finding a good way to make more heroic spells be usable in epic spell casting than on adding a new DoT. Or maybe make epic versions of them you can gain from epic lvls /EDs, that could work as well (again, it could be a choice offered when levelling). Its such a shame that many spells our character learns are not really useful anymore. That might also mean rethinking epic ward to allow a bit more scope for instakills and cc again (lot of testing needed to get that one right, we don't want it too easy either).

Darn right with EVERYTHING in this post. the DC/saves adjustment, CL/spell pen/SR issue, and even the new proposed spell critical feats! As I have a wf arty that has monsters save to his rune arm almost EVERY time I epics even with evo feats and such, a drow PM that is almost to lv 20, and with no TR's on any server, the 1st life is hard since I not only enjoy this game (for the most part) as well as other online games that I play. I don't have that much attention span to just play one character that's a pure build on the same game all day long even though I have the time and as for me, variety of games is the spice of life.

[Wipey]

Add 3 universal spell power to Epic autogranted feats.
Lower fort saves in Stomrhorns and Toee by 2. EE Drow spell resist by 2 too.
Get rid of Fom and Deathwarded mobs / champs garbage.

Add + 5 max cl to DP, Niacs, Eladar and other dots.
Lesser Maximize / Heighten clickies could have 10 charges and 1 min durations.

That'd be a good start.

[voodoogroves]

Add 3 universal spell power to Epic autogranted feats.
More spell power is good

Get rid of Fom and Deathwarded mobs / champs garbage.
Absolutely great if there's randomness. Randomness is good, keeps us from being complacent and makes us have to consider what to do when we face the random thing and can't build one trick ponies.

That said, we need tricks that work (your point about SR / saves).


Add + 5 max cl to DP, Niacs, Eladar and other dots.
How about instead putting max CL increases on existing feats and EDs? If draconic had a bigger bump to max CL on the on-element ... if epic spell power also had a +2 max CL bump to spells of the element, etc.

That way they could put CL on the epic levels, but your ED bumped your max CLs.


Lesser Maximize / Heighten clickies could have 10 charges and 1 min durations.
Increase duration and effectiveness of spell power potions.

Also, increase metamagic benefits at 20 and 28. Heighten adds X in heroic, Y @ 20 and Z at 28.


That'd be a good start.
There are really lots of ways you can skin the cat.

[Vargouille]

Thanks for the continuing feedback. We're still focusing on Update 26 for the near term, but we're reading along.


make the mobs even bigger bags of meat

Noted!

;)
</evil>

[Lonnbeimnech]

So what, Sorcs are pure blasters and unlike Wizards they have Savant to reflect this , they don't care about SR because the majority of attack spells are unaffected by it, if you want to be a CC'r play a Wizard.
)

In other words sorcs don't get 5 bonus feats so they cant make a dc caster, but wizards do, so they must. and now that they have spent those 5 free feats they no longer have 5 free feats to spend. So you can't say they get more feats.

[rehakp]

... if epic spell power also had a +2 max CL bump to spells of the element, etc. ...


Yeah casters epic feats and destiny feats need some love (some heroic feats also to be honest :D)
Epic spellpower is example of joke +20 spellpower turns into 3-5% damage boost in only one element. Compare this with some meelee/ranged feats that even works on whole set of weapons.
Also no way to "actually a significantly" boost spellcrits other than taking 1 standard item for this. If you dont want to cry as caster dont even try to compare caster crit enhancement/feats/itemization options to crit profile options that meelee and ranged characters have in enhancements feats and items.

I know i know ... you cant compare apples and oranges or spells and meelees directly like that ... but still.

[Thar]

So what, Sorcs are pure blasters and unlike Wizards they have Savant to reflect this , they don't care about SR because the majority of attack spells are unaffected by it, if you want to be a CC'r play a Wizard.

Ranged needs to be reworked badly, we've finally gotten to a respectable attack rate (mainly because stuff like haste actually works now) we just need to rectify the feat situation. 3 Combat feats like every other style (Basic, Improved and Greater) a couple tactical feats (Probably just various "called shots" ie. Leg Shot = Slowed Movement) and some Cleave like effects (Fan Shot & Arrow Rain)

I have a DC sorc that works fine but of course is severely feat starved. i like the increase casting speed. SR is a problem for that build but then you revert to damage spells for those situations.

Ranged combat is bleh except for blitz or furyshot. two destiny's don't make the rest of the game enjoyable just like 3 arcane destinies make casters enjoyable when your doing the rest of your ETR.

[rehakp]

Why not use the opportunity to give leveling epic lvls a bit more depth though? Instead of every lvl autogranting X melee power, X ranged power and add caster lvls and/or spellpower to it, why not give people a choice? Either give it based on heroic lvl split (that might get complicated?) or even better, just give you the option of picking whether you want melee power, ranged power, Wizard/Sorc/Bard/Druid/Warlock/Cleric/FvS caster lvls + some amount of Uspellpower (or even allow picking which spellpower? So we can pick which we want?). And allow us to pick what skills we want to increase instead of just adding 1 to each.


Yeah ... DDO epic levels are pretty "boring" considering customization. Mostly its because turbine chose to make "generic" epic levels compared to PnP version. Surely its easier to implement this way, but the sacrifice is obvious.
Now its pretty hard to bring some of the customization back.
like skills for example ... how would you calculate skillpoins X+int on multiclass wizard/rogue if you give some static number (2+int for example) then skill intesive classes like rogues will be unable to continue maintain skills etc.
The "solution" turbine made was ... give everyone everything (all skills, all meelee/ranged power, etc.)

Well if i could wote i would definately choose more customization in epic levels like you suggested .. choosing between meelee power/spellcasting boost/etc./etc.
Hell i would even wote for implementing PnP version of epic levels (though it could bring some balancing issues like classA 20/classB 5/classC .... etc.)

But i believe anything would be less "BORING" than taking those EPIC where you only click NEXT->DONE because thers NOTHING TO CUSTOMIZE ... this really really does not feel EPIC imho.

[FestusHood]

When epic reincarnation was first being talked about the original idea was to reset the xp on your epic destinies and make the player level them up again. This was "unpopular" for various reasons.

Level gating destiny tiers is different than making someone relevel their destiny in no important way.

Prior to the introduction of epic reincarnation, characters that did true reincarnation still retained full destiny progress and had full access to them upon reaching level 20. If this is a problem, it is not specifically related to epic reincarnation.

N/h/e difficulties were introduced at the exact same time that epic destinies were introduced. Epic elite is balanced with full destinies in mind. That's why epic elite is technically harder than old single setting epic.

Arguing that it doesn't matter because anybody can roll through epic elite content without using destinies is elitist. Most people playing the game actually can't.

[Thar]

Thanks for the continuing feedback. We're still focusing on Update 26 for the near term, but we're reading along.



Noted!

;)
</evil>

hopefully this isn't big changes (change to caster level to epic levels) that will be pushed in with little testing. If 26 is in june it's a little late to bring up a redesign of casters and expect that everything will work well. DC casting is possible but you need every dc buff in game to make it so/so work. Non epic spells are too costly. PRR/MRR changes make casters all the glass cannon or spend all your feats on heavy armor builds. Champions destroy casters with their bypass displacement/fort Many problems to solve for casters in a few weeks.

[Thar]

When epic reincarnation was first being talked about the original idea was to reset the xp on your epic destinies and make the player level them up again. This was "unpopular" for various reasons.

Level gating destiny tiers is different than making someone relevel their destiny in no important way.

Prior to the introduction of epic reincarnation, characters that did true reincarnation still retained full destiny progress and had full access to them upon reaching level 20. If this is a problem, it is not specifically related to epic reincarnation.

N/h/e difficulties were introduced at the exact same time that epic destinies were introduced. Epic elite is balanced with full destinies in mind. That's why epic elite is technically harder than old single setting epic.

Arguing that it doesn't matter because anybody can roll through epic elite content without using destinies is elitist. Most people playing the game actually can't.

agreed, not to mention it would probably break twist progression if reset.

[Nascoe]

hopefully this isn't big changes (change to caster level to epic levels) that will be pushed in with little testing. If 26 is in june it's a little late to bring up a redesign of casters and expect that everything will work well. DC casting is possible but you need every dc buff in game to make it so/so work. Non epic spells are too costly. PRR/MRR changes make casters all the glass cannon or spend all your feats on heavy armor builds. Champions destroy casters with their bypass displacement/fort Many problems to solve for casters in a few weeks.

Thar, I think you misunderstood that message from Vargouille.

As I read it, it just means that the devs are not currently working on implementing anything in this discussion while they have their hands full with U26 right now. But they are following the discussion, the arguments, the reasoning given and will get back to it and include the feedback in their thinking on this matter (caster power progression, caster lvls) at a later time.

[IronClan]

Why not use the opportunity to give leveling epic lvls a bit more depth though? Instead of every lvl autogranting X melee power, X ranged power and add caster lvls and/or spellpower to it, why not give people a choice? Either give it based on heroic lvl split (that might get complicated?) or even better, just give you the option of picking whether you want melee power, ranged power, Wizard/Sorc/Bard/Druid/Warlock/Cleric/FvS caster lvls + some amount of Uspellpower (or even allow picking which spellpower? So we can pick which we want?). And allow us to pick what skills we want to increase instead of just adding 1 to each.

As for making casting better / more interesting / more rewarding in epic lvls. I see some merit in putting more power in feat choices. Its an option, it lets us choose. And wizards do have a lot of feats. But does it really do much for casters as such? Also is it good balance when casters have to rely on picking feats when melees get far more without having to rely on them?
.

Excellent post, love the idea of adding choices to Epic levels I think we should run with this idea.

Offer up 4 + Normal INT skill formula bonus to Skill points to distribute as the player chooses instead of just incrementing all skills by 1. Offer up choice of Melee/ranged/spell power, maybe allow choosing class levels or something that benefits melee and ranged characters in a similarly impactful way? Tactical cool down reduction? +1 boost uses, maybe?

Every epic level we Could allow choosing between:
1 Caster level
1 Tactical DC
5% Cooldown Reduction
1 School DC
5% Helpless damage
1 boost/turn/rage/use.

Then cap the choices at reasonable maximums (can be taken X times, for example the DC's would probably need to be capped at 3, while caster level does not need a cap probably.) lots of tradeoffs here, do I improve my Stunning blow cool down or DC or increase the damage bonus when hitting a stunned mob? Some combination probably.

Would love to see Epic levels matter more.

[IronClan]

When epic reincarnation was first being talked about the original idea was to reset the xp on your epic destinies and make the player level them up again. This was "unpopular" for various reasons.

Level gating destiny tiers is different than making someone relevel their destiny in no important way.

Of course it's very different. In fact it's different in the most important possible way: you do not have to farm destiny XP at all, or re-farm destiny XP at all. You do not need to take your Barb through Magister again.

The massive angry mob over the initial ETR proposal was because you would literally have needed to go over to the Destiny you had emptied and use that destiny for 6 million XP to fill it back up. Necessity to Refarm Destinies was 99.9% of the aggressively opposed reaction.

You're intentionally ignoring this or not seeing this important distinction perhaps so you can spread FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt) to keep people who aren't THINKING about the issue from starting to. Perhaps to promote more violent and not thoughtful knee jerk reaction against the idea.

This proposal all the XP is still there and no off destiny farming is required, in fact you automatically get X AP to spend at level 20 and that number is totally still up for debate... it could be 10 at level 20, 10 at level 22 and the last 5 at level 23. this also makes the proposal very different from what you're trying to equate it to.

Either way there's no important or valid argument for why in a RPG with progression systems all over the place (Weapon ML, Levels, Epic levels, TR'ing, ETR'ing Enhancement points, etc) that we should get full Destiny Power the moment we hit 20 and it's a part of why the forums are constantly filled with people saying the game is too easy.

Make a valid argument: tell us why a level one should get 80 Enhancement points off a TR. And you will have made the case for why a level 20 should get all 25 ED points.

Bring up the "elitism" tag again we're butting up on making terms useless by applying them in nonsensical ways, but let me ask you guys: do you all really think someone who has capped at least one toon and presumably filled out their destinies and is on AT LEAST their first ETR but possibly have done many more than that: do you really want to base an opposing argument on the idea that they NEED 5 spell penn at level 20 or they are going to struggle? Conversely the +3 they would get at level 28 is of no benefit to them? Elistism! wanting to give people more caster levels when they matter more! (like at level 28 when filling out a off ED sphere that you just emptied of Karma on a ETR) How dare I!?

Or hey just admit it's a terribly formed argument full of holes that is motivated by uncertainty and fear.

[Vulkoorex]

hopefully this isn't big changes (change to caster level to epic levels) that will be pushed in with little testing. If 26 is in june it's a little late to bring up a redesign of casters and expect that everything will work well. DC casting is possible but you need every dc buff in game to make it so/so work. Non epic spells are too costly. PRR/MRR changes make casters all the glass cannon or spend all your feats on heavy armor builds. Champions destroy casters with their bypass displacement/fort Many problems to solve for casters in a few weeks.

My DC caster was contributing to the group with various spells in Heroic. In epics, I'm regulated to pike instead.

[Angelic-council]

This is the worst aspect of having been on (past tense) the PC, it's ******* ridiculous to constantly bemoan the fact that someone doesn't agree with you and doesn't play the game he same way you do, just because they were on a glorified ******* focus group. Get over yourself please, there are going to be people on the PC who don't value what you value, that look at things differently than you do.

You see me here going "**** they should never have let So-and-So onto the PC that guy just had non stop bad ideas that were counter to what I personally want!" NO why? because everyone's got an opinion, because you aren't going to slap 30 people together and get only ideas you like. Get over it.

Not necessarily directed at you but: Caster levels DO NOT GIVE DC'S*

Most people have no clue how caster level works and that's quite in evidence in this thread. Caster levels in most cases only give Spell Penn, in most cases you ALREADY HAVE YOUR SPELLS AT MAX CASTER LEVEL (at least the spells you use frequently) or you did a bad job designing and gearing your build. Or we're talking about an unusual or seldom used spell that is not one you specialize in that is not maxed because you didn't build for caster levels in that Savant (a Water spell cast by a Fire Savant).

As for game design, my idea works exactly the same as the enhancement system, so being that it follows the same mechanical principles as a professional designed game (and countless other professionally designed games) exactly what basis do you use to call it bad?

Bad idea = it would make your character less powerful in content you already blaze through? So should the game be designed based only on the self centered desires of players who already have all their ED's filled out?

Why do you feel entitled to full Destiny AP's at level 20 off a ETR yet you're not demanding 80 Enhancement points at level 1 off a TR?

Answer that question honestly and maybe we can have a discussion about who knows what about game design, or who has better ideas.

* just stop with the dispell magic nit pick you were about to write OR the heighten interaction

Yes, I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I do respect each and everyone's opinion. However, there is a strict line which shouldn't be crossed.

I understand that you think "who I'm to talk like that", but I dedicated more time in designing, balancing the game myself (in real life), I know that there should be many things included besides "I have an interesting idea".

PC plays an important role in DDO, when I see them present us an idea in a way that, it doesn't support what they said, I feel very sad.. They don't explain to us anything, why the idea is good or how that might affect the game, not convincing.. Nothing all that, and just going straight to the conclusion.

I think we all know that the difference between heroic and epics are huge. Everything you done and build in heroic content will affect our game play in epic content. Things are much more complicated as we level up and progress the game. But honestly? the issue is how we start playing the epic content at lv20. We have limited resources and gear (as it should). But dungeon scaling in epics are not like one of those in heroic. Game is already designed around current setup. By twisting it, changing it would surely give dramatic impact on how we play the game. People suggested removing caster level and give 1 caster level per epic level instead. Also, limit the ED access. So that people can only unlock 1 tier per level.

I'm sure turbine adjust the game based on players power, but people are asking to remove something unique which is essential at epic lvl. This thread is about magical damage in epics, but we are touching something else. Wouldn't you agree?.

[Enoach]

My DC caster was contributing to the group with various spells in Heroic. In epics, I'm regulated to pike instead.

I'm actually sorry you feel like your caster's abilities have tanked in epic content.

Myself I have found my DC caster to be rather powerful still and a big contributor to a party even against EE Drow.

A lot of this is because of using the ability Wizards have in changing out spells to better match-up against the content, finding ways around SR when you don't have enough.

Might I suggest before you settle on piking epics on a DC caster that you open up a separate thread, outline what you have as your DCs and Spell Penetration and Casting Stat. Then outline where you feel you are having trouble such as landing spells on specific NPCs etc. And then listen to the constructive advice that many on this forum can provide to help you feel like a contributor to the party once again.

[SirValentine]

When epic reincarnation was first being talked about the original idea was to reset the xp on your epic destinies and make the player level them up again. This was "unpopular" for various reasons.


The unpopularity wasn't losing your XP on the destiny that you'd get a PL for, which would be the same as TRing.

The unpopularity was losing all your XP for every single other destiny, without getting anything for it.



Level gating destiny tiers is different than making someone relevel their destiny in no important way.


It's the difference between re-leveling 1 destiny and re-leveling every destiny.

[Failedlegend]

In other words sorcs don't get 5 bonus feats so they cant make a dc caster, but wizards do, so they must. and now that they have spent those 5 free feats they no longer have 5 free feats to spend. So you can't say they get more feats.

Not exactly but due to having the extra feats and the ability to freely swap in less used spells for specific situations Wizards make better CC'rs whereas Sorc have a faster casting speed, much more SP and Savant so are more inclined to blasting,

Technically you can flip-flop them but it's going against the grain and frankly I LOVE the fact that the devs continue to embrace the differences between the two classes instead of just making them the same otherwise why bother having them be two classes.

That said this thread is about EDs and how it's really annoying for DC casters to use anything but there native sphere, Varg had a brilliant idea but due to kneejerk reactions has pulled out, thanks guys.

[MonadRebelion]

Varg had a brilliant idea but due to kneejerk reactions has pulled out, thanks guys.

I disagree. I think what was shown is that the idea needs to be reworked, because it does too much to favor casters it shouldn't be favoring. Backing off of it is smart for that reason.

[Spekdah_NZ]

Have you guys thought about adapting the PnP 3.5 epic metamagic feats for increasing damage like Intensify Spell, Enhance Spell and Improved Metamagic? I think this came up in another thread about what more PnP epic feats could make it to DDO..

[Silverleafeon]

I have read most of the discussion here. Thanks everyone who put in all the comparisons of characters DCs etc, very interesting to see, I would be surprised if the Devs didn't gather some new insights at least into how their players think about things.

Indeed.



As for the changeS. I think its good to put caster lvls into epic levels rather than into destinies.

That way your power rises a bit with every level you take to make the levels feel like more than just a counter. And it makes it somewhat less painful to gather XP in non caster destinies, or even "other" casters destinies

There is certainly merit to the idea.

I think the biggest concerns about it are:

Shardai gaining arcane caster level boosts thereby making easy magic missle, etc..

The Sillyness of Favored Soul trees and ED granting CHa when everyone knows they want WIs, and the resulting buff in the to compensate instead of actually giving Fvs what they asked for; resulting in double buffs for caster that use CHa.

Favored Soul 4 splashes getting strong caster level bonuses to cure moderate wounds.

Magistar being a blah tree unless you have more than 24 epic destiny points to spend in it.

Ect...


Its clear that "just" putting caster levels into the levels doesn't really help give power to higher lvl casters or make them better though, so there needs to be more done.



Nods sagely, well said.



The argument that everyone needs the spellpower, DCs etc right when they get to lvl 20 feels wrong (does everyone really need that much power for lower lvl quests? Yes they will be harder, but I am not sure that is a bad thing).
I think it would be better to be a bit less powerful at 20 BUT get the opportunity to become MORE powerful at lvl 28 and going to 30.

A basic flaw of Epic Destinies pointed out by various people in the past is that all the power is gained at once with hardly any later on.



Why not use the opportunity to give leveling epic lvls a bit more depth though? Instead of every lvl autogranting X melee power, X ranged power and add caster lvls and/or spellpower to it, why not give people a choice?

+1

Absolutely brilliant and it might answer a lot of the above concerns?




Either give it based on heroic lvl split (that might get complicated?)


Agreed a bit complex.



or even better, just give you the option of picking whether you want melee power, ranged power, Wizard/Sorc/Bard/Druid/Warlock/Cleric/FvS caster lvls + some amount of Uspellpower (or even allow picking which spellpower? So we can pick which we want?).


Again, absolutely brilliant!


So we change Epic Power to read like this:
{subject to balancing, etc..}

Epic Power

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: None

Description Multi-selection: choose two of the following:

+3 Melee Power


+3 Ranged Power


+1 Caster Level in a single class ~ multi-selection of all the classes that have ability to cast spells.


+X spell power


+y spell critical damage


+1 all skills


+1 spell pen


Ect..



Note

This feat is automatically given to all characters each time they gain an Epic level.




Wow, I love it.




And allow us to pick what skills we want to increase instead of just adding 1 to each.


This answers the basic complaint that bonuses to UMD, etc, are worthless.

I like this approach, and I would not mind it being something like:

Spend skill points of 4 + Int Modifier on skill points.

Surely most trapper builds could still function with that many skill points?
Melees would slightly buffed.
Druids would be normal.




As for making casting better / more interesting / more rewarding in epic lvls. I see some merit in putting more power in feat choices. Its an option, it lets us choose. And wizards do have a lot of feats. But does it really do much for casters as such? Also is it good balance when casters have to rely on picking feats when melees get far more without having to rely on them?


Yes, choices are good, but maybe we need to be careful with the new feats, or simply improved some old ones.

Is the mental toughness line a competitive choice yet?

Is combat casting line a competitive choice yet?

Should metamagics be reviewed?



Personally I think the focus should far more be on finding a good way to make more heroic spells be usable in epic spell casting than on adding a new DoT.

Aye its sad that players make fun of Fawn spamming nimbus of light.

Divine Punishment used to be awesume when the level cap was 20.

What happened that our spells are no longer useful?

When did people start saying, Favored Souls need Cha so they can cast Energy Burst and Hellball?

Why on earth does Hellball not have a wisdom option anyway?




Or maybe make epic versions of them you can gain from epic lvls /EDs, that could work as well (again, it could be a choice offered when levelling). Its such a shame that many spells our character learns are not really useful anymore. That might also mean rethinking epic ward to allow a bit more scope for instakills and cc again (lot of testing needed to get that one right, we don't want it too easy either).


Nods and /bows great post worth brainstorming!

[General_Gronker]

Eh, these ideas are just more band-aids on wounds that need surgery.

Before you go screwing around even more with classes, you need to go through, re-read the mothergame rules, and rebuild your monsters, CRs, and module difficulty effects. THEN you can begin to properly address the classes. Anything else is just throwing more bad after bad. After even more bad.

Seriously, you need to stop with this stuff, and restart by examining the base of the game. The slowly rebalance and rebuild it how it's supposed to be, rather than this power creeping pale shadow of what it was meant to be.

[Silverleafeon]

Brainstorming, new way to level up an Epic Level???


So we change Epic Power to read like this:
{subject to balancing, etc..}

Epic Power

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: None

Description Multi-selection: choose two of the following:

+3 Melee Power


+3 Ranged Power


+1 Caster Level in a single class ~ multi-selection of all the classes that have ability to cast spells.


+X spell power


+Y spell critical damage




Note

This feat is automatically given to all characters each time they gain an Epic level.





Spend skill points of 4 + Int Modifier on skill points.

Any Skills you already have as class skills are considered class skills for this level.
{The DDO program already recognizes such and grants full skill points therein.}




Where X and Y are 3 or more.

[Failedlegend]

Brainstorming, new way to level up an Epic Level???


So we change Epic Power to read like this:
Epic Power

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: None

Description Multi-selection: choose two of the following:

+3 Melee Power


+3 Ranged Power


+1 Caster Level in a single class ~ multi-selection of all the classes that have ability to cast spells.


+X spell power


+y spell critical damage




Note

This feat is automatically given to all characters each time they gain an Epic level.


I support this 100%



Spend skill points of 4 + Int Modifier on skill points.


The +1 to all skills works fine imo

[Enoach]

Brainstorming, new way to level up an Epic Level???


So we change Epic Power to read like this:
{subject to balancing, etc..}

Epic Power

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: None

Description Multi-selection: choose two of the following:

+3 Melee Power


+3 Ranged Power


+1 Caster Level in a single class ~ multi-selection of all the classes that have ability to cast spells.


+X spell power


+Y spell critical damage




Note

This feat is automatically given to all characters each time they gain an Epic level.


This is an interesting idea, but I still have concerns of having the possibility of the bonus caster levels exceeding the invested caster level.

In a previous example I pointed out that 8 extra caster levels would add over a minute to short term buffs like Haste and Displacement on my 8/6/6 Ftr/Mnk/Wiz. And also how a single level of Wizard or Sorcerer with +8 caster levels will give a character Maxed Magic Missile (Maxes at caster level 9). This is something that even with the proposed +1 Caster Level per Epic Level has me concerned.




Spend skill points of 4 + Int Modifier on skill points.

Any Skills you already have as class skills are considered class skills for this level.
{The DDO program already recognizes such and grants full skill points therein.}




Where X and Y are 3 or more.

I really don't think the skill points need to be changed at all. This type of change would hurt those that have more cross-class investments such as Wizards and give Rogues and Bards a bigger advantage when it comes to skills.

[MonadRebelion]

+1 Caster Level in a single class ~ multi-selection of all the classes that have ability to cast spells.




Without having a vision of how the devs think casters need to be shaped, I'd prefer this changed in this way.

add a percentage of caster levels to dominant caster class level rounding down (e.g. a level 20/10 wizard/epic = 30 level arcane caster, a level 16/4/10 fighter/wizard/epic = 6 level arcane caster, a level 16/4/10 fvs/wizard/epic is 24 level divine caster/4 level arcane caster)

Also additional skill points is a bad idea.

[Vulkoorex]

I'm actually sorry you feel like your caster's abilities have tanked in epic content.

Myself I have found my DC caster to be rather powerful still and a big contributor to a party even against EE Drow.

A lot of this is because of using the ability Wizards have in changing out spells to better match-up against the content, finding ways around SR when you don't have enough.

Might I suggest before you settle on piking epics on a DC caster that you open up a separate thread, outline what you have as your DCs and Spell Penetration and Casting Stat. Then outline where you feel you are having trouble such as landing spells on specific NPCs etc. And then listen to the constructive advice that many on this forum can provide to help you feel like a contributor to the party once again.

Thanks but I already True Reincarnated into a Paladin. Much better in Epics without getting maxed out gear and being an uber completionist.

The idea of having to wear heavy armor on my Palemaster just to survive champions made me not want to play it anymore. Plus everything was death warded.

[Silverleafeon]

This is an interesting idea, but I still have concerns of having the possibility of the bonus caster levels exceeding the invested caster level.

Well shall we examine them?


In a previous example I pointed out that 8 extra caster levels would add over a minute to short term buffs like Haste and Displacement on my 8/6/6 Ftr/Mnk/Wiz.

Ok, your Arcane Fighter will be running in say? ~ Legendary Dreadnought? / Divine Crusader?

And you will be choosing for two choices will be:
+3 Melee Power
and
+1 Wizard Caster Levels

Giving up +3 ranged power?

(I am assuming level cap goes to 30; I am also assuming we will be seeing more and more True Seeing on mobs as predicted will eventually happen)


You buffs for displacement {6 per caster level} will increase from 36 seconds to 96 seconds.
I will assume you will be perma hasted.
I will assume you will cast rage for 2 minutes and 36 seconds for the +2 str and +2 con?
Aye you undead, using death aura?


The displace is a comfort, but I am not convinced its game breaking. It does place it in the maintainable zone, but we are also approaching the point when more and more monsters will have TS and lesser displacement is available on items. Still yes its significant.

Does that build use any ranged weapons ever?




And also how a single level of Wizard or Sorcerer with +8 caster levels will give a character Maxed Magic Missile (Maxes at caster level 9). This is something that even with the proposed +1 Caster Level per Epic Level has me concerned.

Ok, this is already obtainable, I provided a link of a Favored Soul 17/Monk 2/Wizard 1 that gains level 9 wizard levels.


Favored Soul tier 4 = +3
Twilight = +2
Greater Might of the Abishai = +3

Wizard level 1 + 3 + 2 + 3 = 9th level gaining full magic missiles.

Whether it is good or not, its already in the game.


I will assume a build like this would be something like Favored Soul X / Wizard or Sor Y / ???? Z

They would have to choose two of

choice of between +1 caster level Favored Soul / +1 caster level Wizard {can only pick one}

spell power

spell crit damage

I am not sure, but surely the max builds will choose spell power and spell crit then turn around and use the +8 item/enhancement boost shown above. Thereby making the offering of extra caster levels totally negated?





I really don't think the skill points need to be changed at all. This type of change would hurt those that have more cross-class investments such as Wizards and give Rogues and Bards a bigger advantage when it comes to skills.

I am merely challenging the aspect of Epic Theory that started the bland level advancement we have now.

The theory is found in the 3.5 D&D edition epic rule book.

It simply says that by the time players reach epics the gap between BAB, Saves, and Skills is becoming too big, therefore epic progression needs to be more uniform.

We can all agree upon Saves and BAB needing to be more smooth, however I have seen players post that they feels skills are pretty much way high.

Yes, a Wizard would need to put points into spellcraft (which is a class skill), surely a wizard with high intelligence can afford to keep up with concentration, balance, and spellcraft?


Should not we expect Epic Rogues to be more skillful?
After all reading thru Epic Bluff and the like, the pen and paper epic rogues are much more powerful than in DDO due to epic skill sets!



Sure I might be wrong, but I would like to challenge auto granting +1 to all skills, and present the possibility of exchanging that for skill points thru epic levels.

[Silverleafeon]

Without having a vision of how the devs think casters need to be shaped, I'd prefer this changed in this way.

add a percentage of caster levels to dominant caster class level rounding down (e.g. a level 20/10 wizard/epic = 30 level arcane caster, a level 16/4/10 fighter/wizard/epic = 6 level arcane caster, a level 16/4/10 fvs/wizard/epic is 24 level divine caster/4 level arcane caster)



An interesting Idea.

It does in some cases present a nerf over the original +5 per epic destiny level in the appropriate sphere.
However usually that would not matter at all.

I am having a little trouble visualizing the formula here.

It seems you want only the dominate class to gain caster levels, which would be a point to consider apart from the rest as well as with the rest.

This would in fact totally negate any form of Wizard 1 bonuses imho.

Let us look at it in detail:


Epic Power
{possible rebalancing}

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: None

Description Multi-selection: choose two of the following:

+3 Melee Power


+3 Ranged Power


+1 Caster Level in the dominate caster class {Tie breaker ~ multi-selection of all the classes that have ability to cast spells that are exactly the same highest level; otherwise only offer highest one}


+X spell power { +3 ish?}


+Y spell critical damage {+5 ish?}


+Z/2 Spell Points


+Z Hit Points



Note

This feat is automatically given to all characters each time they gain an Epic level.


Pardon my putting #s in for X and Y.
Personally 3 melee power = 6+ USP = over 6+ spell crit damage

I just feel like casters need a nice (but not overpowered) boost, it might be too timid.
The issue of mana conservation needs to be dealt with too.

Changes from above.

Adding hit point and spell point options (should be nice but not too much) in order to give more competition for caster levels on multiclass builds.
Revised the +1 caster levels to dominate caster class instead of multi-selection.



Also additional skill points is a bad idea.

I am not suggesting adding double dipping, either the toons get the overall +1 to all skills or they get a generous but finite set to choose from.

As far as 4 + int modifier, it could be more such as 6+ int, etc...

But I am likely misunderstanding you and you simply feel the skills should be left alone.

I could be very wrong about the skills and hope people see these are two entirely different subjects to be accepted or rejected separately.

Thanks

[Silverleafeon]

I support this 100%

Wow, a possible comprimise!




The +1 to all skills works fine imo

Yeah, I am not too attached to the skill changes, but the players might as well hash it out anyway.

[Silverleafeon]

Oh and if Favored Soul X, Warlock Y, Wizard 1 it too powerful, then its going to get done regardless of this debate. The Devs ought be looking at that now, since +8 wizard caster levels are already here.

But at least the new compromise would only raise 1 class not all 3, and in the rebalanced version, only Fvs would be raised.

[Silverleafeon]

Thanks for the continuing feedback. We're still focusing on Update 26 for the near term, but we're reading along.



Noted!

;)
</evil>

Thanks.

Oh and credit where credit is due, I'm only stealing above posters idea.

[Failedlegend]

Wow, a possible comprimise!


We may not always agree silver but your a smart guy and you've come up with an idea that satisfies both my want and the worries of some posters (my want simply that DC casters can choose any ED and not be penalized just like basically every other play style)

That said I hope it's not too late and I hope Varg see this amongst the bickering.



So we change Epic Power to read like this:

Epic Power

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: None

Description Multi-selection: choose two of the following:

[list] +3 Melee Power


+3 Ranged Power


+1 Caster Level in a single class ~ multi-selection of all the classes that have ability to cast spells.


+X spell power


+Y spell critical damage

[Silverleafeon]

We may not always agree silver but your a smart guy and you've come up with an idea that satisfies both my want and the worries of some posters (my want simply that DC casters can choose any ED and not be penalized just like basically every other play style)

That said I hope it's not too late and I hope Varg see this amongst the bickering.

Woot!

High Five!



I think Varg is a speed reader.
He posts in the most unusual places, I'm like I did not read that one yet...
He'll see it.

[FestusHood]

Of course it's very different. In fact it's different in the most important possible way: you do not have to farm destiny XP at all, or re-farm destiny XP at all. You do not need to take your Barb through Magister again.

The massive angry mob over the initial ETR proposal was because you would literally have needed to go over to the Destiny you had emptied and use that destiny for 6 million XP to fill it back up. Necessity to Refarm Destinies was 99.9% of the aggressively opposed reaction.

You're intentionally ignoring this or not seeing this important distinction perhaps so you can spread FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt) to keep people who aren't THINKING about the issue from starting to. Perhaps to promote more violent and not thoughtful knee jerk reaction against the idea.

This proposal all the XP is still there and no off destiny farming is required, in fact you automatically get X AP to spend at level 20 and that number is totally still up for debate... it could be 10 at level 20, 10 at level 22 and the last 5 at level 23. this also makes the proposal very different from what you're trying to equate it to.

Either way there's no important or valid argument for why in a RPG with progression systems all over the place (Weapon ML, Levels, Epic levels, TR'ing, ETR'ing Enhancement points, etc) that we should get full Destiny Power the moment we hit 20 and it's a part of why the forums are constantly filled with people saying the game is too easy.

Make a valid argument: tell us why a level one should get 80 Enhancement points off a TR. And you will have made the case for why a level 20 should get all 25 ED points.

Bring up the "elitism" tag again we're butting up on making terms useless by applying them in nonsensical ways, but let me ask you guys: do you all really think someone who has capped at least one toon and presumably filled out their destinies and is on AT LEAST their first ETR but possibly have done many more than that: do you really want to base an opposing argument on the idea that they NEED 5 spell penn at level 20 or they are going to struggle? Conversely the +3 they would get at level 28 is of no benefit to them? Elistism! wanting to give people more caster levels when they matter more! (like at level 28 when filling out a off ED sphere that you just emptied of Karma on a ETR) How dare I!?

Or hey just admit it's a terribly formed argument full of holes that is motivated by uncertainty and fear.

There were multiple ideas put out between the original epic reincarnation idea and the karma one that they ended up with. One of them was to just drain the xp out of the destiny for which you took the past life. That was unpopular enough that they ended up going with the karma system.

I'm not specifically talking about spell pen, but other aspects of destiny power. I'm arguing against level gating destines, i'm undecided on the value of swapping caster levels to epic levels

You are saying that people can sleepwalk through low level epic elite content with NO destiny use at all. Or are you saying that people should wait until they are level 24 or 25 before they should run eberron epics on elite? The idea that people can do low level epic elites without any destiny power is quite elitist. You are essentially saying that you have to do it with a capped heroic character. Many people can't run epic elites at level 20 even with a capped destiny. That's awesome that you could. Heck, i'm sure you could blow through them with a level 8 character if they would let you in. Many of us just aren't that good.

[Iriale]

An interesting Idea.

It does in some cases present a nerf over the original +5 per epic destiny level in the appropriate sphere.
However usually that would not matter at all.

I am having a little trouble visualizing the formula here.

It seems you want only the dominate class to gain caster levels, which would be a point to consider apart from the rest as well as with the rest.

This would in fact totally negate any form of Wizard 1 bonuses imho.

Let us look at it in detail:


Epic Power
{possible rebalancing}

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: None

Description Multi-selection: choose two of the following:

+3 Melee Power


+3 Ranged Power


+1 Caster Level in the dominate caster class {Tie breaker ~ multi-selection of all the classes that have ability to cast spells that are exactly the same highest level; otherwise only offer highest one}


+X spell power { +3 ish?}


+Y spell critical damage {+5 ish?}


+Z/2 Spell Points


+Z Hit Points



Note

This feat is automatically given to all characters each time they gain an Epic level.


Pardon my putting #s in for X and Y.
Personally 3 melee power = 6+ USP = over 6+ spell crit damage

Thanks

No, thanks. Why? Melees don’t have here any trade-off, nuker casters have a trade-off, CC DC casters are screwed. With melee power, melees are set (same ranger with ranger power). With two choices they can boost their heals with spellpower too. They don’t need caster levels, they don’t need spell crit. Nuker casters (specially sorc) have a little more of trade-off: they need spellpower and crit, and too DC for their dps spells with DC, and then without caster levels their SR penetration suffer for enchantament spells. Wizards? Screwed: wizzies need SR and DC for their CC spells, and too spellpower and crit for bosses (DC spells are USELESS against bosses, they too *need* some dps, this is not pnp where you can instantkill a boss)

No, terrible idea with this implementation. This thread is for help casters, not for penalize more!

[Failedlegend]

No, thanks. Why? Melees don’t have here any trade-off, nuker casters have a trade-off, CC DC casters are screwed. With melee power, melees are set (same ranger with ranger power). With two choices they can boost their heals with spellpower too. They don’t need caster levels, they don’t need spell crit. Nuker casters (specially sorc) have a little more of trade-off: they need spellpower and crit, and too DC for their dps spells with DC, and then without caster levels their SR penetration suffer for enchantament spells. Wizards? Screwed: wizzies need SR and DC for their CC spells, and too spellpower and crit for bosses (DC spells are USELESS against bosses, they too *need* some dps, this is not pnp where you can instantkill a boss)

No, terrible idea with this implementation. This thread is for help casters, not for penalize more!

You do realize the already get melee and ranged power from EDs right all this is suggesting is to move it from the EDs to epic levels.

[Faltout]

No, thanks. Why? Melees don’t have here any trade-off, nuker casters have a trade-off, CC DC casters are screwed. With melee power, melees are set (same ranger with ranger power). With two choices they can boost their heals with spellpower too. They don’t need caster levels, they don’t need spell crit. Nuker casters (specially sorc) have a little more of trade-off: they need spellpower and crit, and too DC for their dps spells with DC, and then without caster levels their SR penetration suffer for enchantament spells. Wizards? Screwed: wizzies need SR and DC for their CC spells, and too spellpower and crit for bosses (DC spells are USELESS against bosses, they too *need* some dps, this is not pnp where you can instantkill a boss)

No, terrible idea with this implementation. This thread is for help casters, not for penalize more!
Ok, not all casters are the same.
There are evokers, enchanters, necromancers, illusionists, etc.
Evokers need DC (which is NOT coming from caster level), spell crit, spell power and spell damage (which is coming from maximum caster level). They DON'T need spell pen. Sure, you want your characters to be able to be all, but that's not balanced.
enchanters, necro, illusion, etc. need DC (which is NOT coming from caster level) and spell pen. They DON'T need spell crit and spell power because their spell have effects, not damage. Sure, you want your character to be able to be all, but that's not balanced.

evokers can pick up secondary schools and do extra things, but you should not expect them to perform just as well as the ones that picked that up as a primary school. Evokers will use damage spells against monsters with high SR and if they wish other spells against monsters with no SR.
enchanters, necro, etc. can pick up some evocation spells and do damage when monsters are immune to their spells' effects, but you should not expect them to be just as good as an evoker. They will use their school spells against trash and evocation spells against bosses but at higher cost.


This thread is for help casters, not for penalize more!
It IS helping casters. Each type in a different way.
It is not unifying caster types if that's what you want.

[Iriale]

Ok, not all casters are the same.
There are evokers, enchanters, necromancers, illusionists, etc.
Evokers need DC (which is NOT coming from caster level), spell crit, spell power and spell damage (which is coming from maximum caster level). They DON'T need spell pen. Sure, you want your characters to be able to be all, but that's not balanced.
enchanters, necro, illusion, etc. need DC (which is NOT coming from caster level) and spell pen. They DON'T need spell crit and spell power because their spell have effects, not damage. Sure, you want your character to be able to be all, but that's not balanced.

evokers can pick up secondary schools and do extra things, but you should not expect them to perform just as well as the ones that picked that up as a primary school. Evokers will use damage spells against monsters with high SR and if they wish other spells against monsters with no SR.
enchanters, necro, etc. can pick up some evocation spells and do damage when monsters are immune to their spells' effects, but you should not expect them to be just as good as an evoker. They will use their school spells against trash and evocation spells against bosses but at higher cost. .
read me better, please. I know how the game works, and you are putting words on my keyboard that I didn’t say.

And sorry--- all casters need dps. Not all should have the same dps, of course, but *all* need dps. The sad fact is that in bosses only work one thing: dps. So, as CC caster you need dps too. And not low with the very high hps that have the bosses nowadays.



It IS helping casters. Each type in a different way.
It is not unifying caster types if that's what you want.
I don’t want unifying casters. I want that all become viable on epics. Casters have already a different performance in different areas, their spells and enhancements create big differences between them. There is a big difference between sorcerers and wizards in dps, for example, and is fine that there is a difference. But we have seen that nowadays magical dps is inefficient, and that the wizard is waaaay behind of all spellcasters on epics. Worse dps, yes, but the class needs some viable dps!!!

Nowadays sorcs can obtain enough spell penetration for their enchantment spells—enough for work fine, and this is a secondary specialization. They don’t obsolete CC wizzies having a working enchantment, but without spell penetration (given for caster levels…) they will have a hard time getting a viable spell penetration.

Please, I know the game very well. Your proposal is bad for all spellcasters. With that you worsen the actual performance of all spellcasters- which is not good nowadays. And melees don’t lose anything. They need ranger or melee power, and nothing more. They don’t have trade-offs in this proposal. A caster will have trade-offs: worse dps, or worse spell penetration, or worse DC. Lol. People complaining in this thread about that melees have not had any trade-offs in their updates and now you give a proposal that do the same…

Leave the EDs as they are. Forget these elections in epic levels. Real class levels would have been nice, but you don’t propose real class levels, only some elections bad designed. This proposal would need a lot more polish than the Varg proposal.

[rehakp]

Whatever change you do .. PLEASE PELASE ..
also put caster level/spell penetration somwhere on charsheet .. or better on spells description like DCs are (because different clvls for some schools elements maybe)
"general" clvl can be quessed easily from 1/min duration spells for example but there are dozens of ways to imrove your SR and i would really appreciate to actually see the final number somewhere a) for confirnation it works how i think it works b) its easier to see the number (like DC) than to have count all those dozen boosts together.

[FestusHood]

Whatever change you do .. PLEASE PELASE ..
also put caster level/spell penetration somwhere on charsheet .. or better on spells description like DCs are (because different clvls for some schools elements maybe)
"general" clvl can be quessed easily from 1/min duration spells for example but there are dozens of ways to imrove your SR and i would really appreciate to actually see the final number somewhere a) for confirnation it works how i think it works b) its easier to see the number (like DC) than to have count all those dozen boosts together.

If you can see your die rolls when you attack something with spell resistance, it should display your spell penetration number.

[Vargouille]

Description Multi-selection: choose two of the following:


+3 Melee Power
+3 Ranged Power
+1 Caster Level in a single class ~ multi-selection of all the classes that have ability to cast spells.
+X spell power
+Y spell critical damage


There are some interesting ideas here. There's some technical limitations that may make it very difficult as-described (we don't have "pick 2" for feats on level ups, really), but possibly interesting as a launching point.

[Mahatu]

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There are some interesting ideas here. There's some technical limitations that may make it very difficult as-described (we don't have "pick 2" for feats on level ups, really), but possibly interesting as a launching point.

I really feel that +1 caster level to all classes should be the default for all epic levels. I really don't understand why this is something that people feel so opposed to. I never liked that they were tied to spesific destinies (it really takes away from using the destiny that suits your characters playstyle rather than some arbitrary notion of what your class "should" be), and it would be a nice boost to multiclass casters who give a quite a lot as it is (typicaly high level spells and a fair amount of spell DCs). The idea presented here is pretty interesting, though I feel that the choices are really not equal and it feels like it would be rather punishing to any character that tries something more outside the box, which I feel is pretty against one of DDO's greatest strengths (the ability to build very unique characters).

[Vargouille]

I really feel that +1 caster level to all classes should be the default for all epic levels. I really don't understand why this is something that people feel so opposed to. I never liked that they were tied to spesific destinies (it really takes away from using the destiny that suits your characters playstyle rather than some arbitrary notion of what your class "should" be), and it would be a nice boost to multiclass casters who give a quite a lot as it is (typicaly high level spells and a fair amount of spell DCs). The idea presented here is pretty interesting, though I feel that the choices are really not equal and it feels like it would be rather punishing to any character that tries something more outside the box, which I feel is pretty against one of DDO's greatest strengths (the ability to build very unique characters).

We're happy to hear which ones players feel are unbalanced (either too strong or too weak). It's not clear from this which ones you think are "not equal", or in what way.

[FestusHood]

We're happy to hear which ones players feel are unbalanced (either too strong or too weak). It's not clear from this which ones you think are "not equal", or in what way.

From the specific list you quoted, only casters would be making hard choices.

[Iriale]

We're happy to hear which ones players feel are unbalanced (either too strong or too weak). It's not clear from this which ones you think are "not equal", or in what way.
From the specific list you quoted, only casters will be making hard choices. I said this in my last post: weapon users only need melee or ranger power. Spells need spell crit, spellpower and spell penetration. A specific class can use more one type of spell than other, but almost all spellcasters need the 3 things. You can to be a CC toon... and? You need dps for bosses. You can be a dps toon... and? dps toons use too spells with spell resistance; for example, mass hold monster on sorcs. Melee types only need one thing, and they are set. This is not true with spellcasters.

Nowadays the variety of spells that work in epics for a given build is depressing-- so low! Do you want reduce more???

change to:

Description Multi-selection: choose two of the following:

+3 Melee Power
+3 Ranged Power
+1 Caster Level in a single class ~ multi-selection of all the classes that have ability to cast spells.
+X spell power & +Y spell critical damage (spell dps need both!)

... and will be more fair. Although some legit hybrid builds can be screwed, but it's more fair.

Of course the shiradi multiclass builds with only 1 or 2 levels of sorc/wiz, and the cha-based builds on exalted angel, will be the biggest winners... i hope that you fix this too! Review magister, draconic and primal avatar, please. We need this badly. If you don't review these EDs, all druids and DC cha-arcanes will be on exalted angel. why not? good SLAs and nice dps, full caster level, transcendental magic (+3 DC), angelic presence (+2 cha-- +1 DC), cha/wis increases, heals… how can compete with this the arcanes EDs or primal avatar??? And wizards are left alone on subpar arcane EDs?? And shiradi… well, I don't need repeat the problems with this ED, true? Give us to traditional spellcasters EDs as good as shiradi multiclasses have, please.

[Doctorivil]

I'd make something like:

Choose 2 from:
3 Ranged power
3 Melee Power
1% doublestrike and doubleshot
5 Universal spell power and 1% crit change with spells
1 Caster levels in one of: Wiz/Sor/Art or Cler/Fvs/Pal or Dru/Rgr

This way with 2 choices you could make a pure caster/ranger/melee or mix it up as it suits you.

Also let me point (if not pointed yet) something that I was told by a guildie, that as he sees it, the extra caster levels are the only reason arcane casters are sticking to Arcane Destinies, if those destinies stop giving the caster levels they'll loose much of the appeal to the players.

So you may consider keeping the 5 caster levels in EDs, that way a lv 30 player could have 15 extra caster levels.
To that i'd add maximum caster level in the cores of EDs.

[Thar]

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There are some interesting ideas here. There's some technical limitations that may make it very difficult as-described (we don't have "pick 2" for feats on level ups, really), but possibly interesting as a launching point.

That proposal only hurts casters vs today's setup. how is this good? melee takes melee power and hp, ranged takes ranged power and hp. casters take...2 of... how is that fair?

[Thar]

We're happy to hear which ones players feel are unbalanced (either too strong or too weak). It's not clear from this which ones you think are "not equal", or in what way.

the proposal of add +1 caster level for each epic level is good.

These other proposals of drop ed's at 20 and choose this or that are 1) nerfing something, 2) complex and gonna break something (ie twists) or are someone's idea of "balance" that other (especially non forum goers) will disagree with. In discussing these in game on voice chat, the attitude was are they trying to kill the game?

Make the process simple and move the caster level as you stated and give the arcane destiny's +5 sp in it's place to make the arcane destiny's feel caster oriented and not diminished and it's good.

[Thar]

Wow, a possible comprimise!




Yeah, I am not too attached to the skill changes, but the players might as well hash it out anyway.

not for all of us. leave things alone!!!

[HastyPudding]

I really feel that +1 caster level to all classes should be the default for all epic levels. I really don't understand why this is something that people feel so opposed to. I never liked that they were tied to spesific destinies (it really takes away from using the destiny that suits your characters playstyle rather than some arbitrary notion of what your class "should" be), and it would be a nice boost to multiclass casters who give a quite a lot as it is (typicaly high level spells and a fair amount of spell DCs). The idea presented here is pretty interesting, though I feel that the choices are really not equal and it feels like it would be rather punishing to any character that tries something more outside the box, which I feel is pretty against one of DDO's greatest strengths (the ability to build very unique characters).

The problem arises when you have a sorcerer in, say, exalted angel. They have synergy with charisma. Same with a bard, cleric, and FVS. Druids have synergy with wisdom in divine crusader and exalted angel but none in the arcane sphere destinies. Wizards (and artificers to a lesser extent) ONLY have real synergy with magister and draconic, and magister is lackluster compared to the other caster destinies. This is because wizards and artificers are intelligence-based casting and now we have five casters that have synergy with charisma (cleric, fvs, sorcerer, bard, and warlock), three with wisdom (cleric, fvs, and druid), and only two with intelligence (wizard and artificer).

You can talk about caster levels not being tied to destinies all you want, but wizards (and artificers) only really gain DC-capable abilities from draconic and magister. You can enjoy your new sorcerer or warlock in divine crusader or your druid or bard in exalted angel or your fvs in draconic incarnation with these proposed changes, but a wizard (the most specialized, heavily dc/caster level based caster) is still screwed on the synergy with other caster destinies.



From the specific list you quoted, only casters would be making hard choices. I said this in my last post: weapon users only need melee or ranger power. Spells need spell crit, spellpower and spell penetration. A specific class can use more one type of spell than other, but almost all spellcasters need the 3 things. You can to be a CC toon... and? You need dps for bosses. You can be a dps toon... and? dps toons use too spell with spell resistance; for example, mass hold monster on sorcs. Melee types only need one thing, and they are set. This is not true with spellcasters.

Nowadays the variety of spells that work in epics for a given build is depressing-- so low! Do you want reduce more???

That's the issue with balancing the classes. Melee and ranged dps classes only need to rely on melee/ranged power; seeker, deadly items, and such are all icing on the cake. Casters, depending on the type and build, require spell focus feats and equipment for DC's, spell penetration, have worry about caster levels, spell critical damage, spell critical chance, and enough spell points to fuel all of that, not to mention the heavy past life requirements to be functional. It's funny that people then whine when casters might get some sort of buff when all they need to do is hold the left mouse button down and slightly rotate their hand to deal massive DPS.

I've said it before; all these proposed changes would do is help out the multiclass casters, especially the shiradi casters who need nothing more than a few spell points to spam magic missiles and pretend they put thought and effort into their character.

[Enoach]

We're happy to hear which ones players feel are unbalanced (either too strong or too weak). It's not clear from this which ones you think are "not equal", or in what way.

I like the idea of 1 Epic Level = 1 Caster Level

My concern is how that effects splash builds that will potentially gain more caster levels from epic level then what they put into their character. This is potentially stronger than the Practiced Spell Caster Feat which while discussed never seemed to gain any foothold.

Don't get me wrong my 8/6/6/ ftr/mnk/wiz EK/AA build would totally enjoy the extra levels for buff purposes. But even I can see how +8 (and eventually +10) caster levels on a 1 Level Caster Splash can make abilities like Magic Missiles very strong. I just think this should be approached with caution - maybe even a benefit limit where it caps to the number of levels actually taken.

[Iriale]

I like the idea of 1 Epic Level = 1 Caster Level

My concern is how that effects splash builds that will potentially gain more caster levels from epic level then what they put into their character. This is potentially stronger than the Practiced Spell Caster Feat which while discussed never seemed to gain any foothold.

Don't get me wrong my 8/6/6/ ftr/mnk/wiz EK/AA build would totally enjoy the extra levels for buff purposes. But even I can see how +8 (and eventually +10) caster levels on a 1 Level Caster Splash can make abilities like Magic Missiles very strong. I just think this should be approached with caution - maybe even a benefit limit where it caps to the number of levels actually taken.
... and don't forget exalted angel. primal destinies can't compete with exalted angel for druids if caster level is universal. Cha-arcanes builds get a unfair boost of their DCs (+4!!!) above every other build without any tradeoff (at least now they change spell penetration...), and with additional dps, SLAs, and heals.

Seriously, Varg: fix first the mana efficiency and magical dps problems, review the subpar EDs, see the disproportionate interaction that has exalted angel with cha-builds, and only after see for changes on epic leveling. If you don't balance first the things, the change will be a disaster. And you know, when I suck playing on my main ED... do you think that i mind about playing comfortably on off-EDs??? Let me enjoy the play at least on my main ED!!! After, do the changes you want to epic leveling.

[Nascoe]

read me better, please. I know how the game works, and you are putting words on my keyboard that I didn’t say.

And sorry--- all casters need dps. Not all should have the same dps, of course, but *all* need dps. The sad fact is that in bosses only work one thing: dps. So, as CC caster you need dps too. And not low with the very high hps that have the bosses nowadays.



I don’t want unifying casters. I want that all become viable on epics. Casters have already a different performance in different areas, their spells and enhancements create big differences between them. There is a big difference between sorcerers and wizards in dps, for example, and is fine that there is a difference. But we have seen that nowadays magical dps is inefficient, and that the wizard is waaaay behind of all spellcasters on epics. Worse dps, yes, but the class needs some viable dps!!!

Nowadays sorcs can obtain enough spell penetration for their enchantment spells—enough for work fine, and this is a secondary specialization. They don’t obsolete CC wizzies having a working enchantment, but without spell penetration (given for caster levels…) they will have a hard time getting a viable spell penetration.

Please, I know the game very well. Your proposal is bad for all spellcasters. With that you worsen the actual performance of all spellcasters- which is not good nowadays. And melees don’t lose anything. They need ranger or melee power, and nothing more. They don’t have trade-offs in this proposal. A caster will have trade-offs: worse dps, or worse spell penetration, or worse DC. Lol. People complaining in this thread about that melees have not had any trade-offs in their updates and now you give a proposal that do the same…

Leave the EDs as they are. Forget these elections in epic levels. Real class levels would have been nice, but you don’t propose real class levels, only some elections bad designed. This proposal would need a lot more polish than the Varg proposal.

Ok, you say you know the game very well. And you want the best for casters (as they clearly are more in need of working on now).

Fine. Now, lets get back to the proposed idea I brouht up.

My proposal was that, instead of auto-granting (like we get now) with every level on every character X melee power, X ranged power and potentially adding Spellpower/caster levels (levels as proposed by Vargouille, spellpower as brought up by some players in the discussion) as well as a +1 to all our skills, we would get a CHOICE. The puprose would be to give more options to customize.
That way Melee can stay as strong as they are (but not have spellpower/ranged power/caster levels autogranted at the same time), ranged can stay strong (but not get melee power/caster bonuses at the same time) and casters can ALSO get stronger (something they don't get now, apart from being in the right destiny). I think adding spell school choices in there would also be a good idea, and if we get skillpoints to allocate casters could choose to boost their relevant skills a bit more (favouring INT builds a bit).

I really do not see how you can both understand that proposal, know the game and at the same time argue that this makes anything worse for casters.
Melee/Ranged would not get anything extra (even lose some Ranged/Melee power, unless they pick it and ignore Melee/Ranged power), it offers casters more scope for specialization in their field (with spellschools, caster levels, spellpower choices) and overall it would make getting epic levels more fun because you can make choices.

Sure, this does not solve the scaling of casters in epic levels (by much), but its one positive step. Why a positive? Because it means that adding power to epic levels does not automatically make EVERYONE stronger, making it somewhat easier to balance.

[Jaenar]

Make the +1 Caster Level per Epic Level the same enhancement type as what is currently in the Destiny Spheres for 21 through 25. This way if your in one of the Destiny's that give +Caster Level, it does not stack and if your not in one of those, you would get the +1 per level. Then make the level 25-28(30) Epic levels give +1 Caster Level of a different type of enhancement, so that it stacks with either the first 21-25 Levels OR the +5 you get from the various Destiny's. This way every caster benefits from the +8(10) Caster Levels, even if their in an off Destiny. Although, they would get more being in a primary destiny than in an off Destiny in the first 5 levels from having a Destiny already maxed, but isn't that part of already having done X number of past lives/destiny building etc? If your new, your not going to get the already there caster levels, because you haven't done that work yet.

So it would be something like ...

21 - +1 Caster Level (Destiny Bonus)
22 - +1 Caster Level (Destiny Bonus)
23 - +1 Caster Level (Destiny Bonus)
24 - +1 Caster Level (Destiny Bonus)
25 - +1 Caster Level (Destiny Bonus)
26 - +1 Caster Level (Epic Bonus)
27 - +1 Caster Level (Epic Bonus)
28 - +1 Caster Level (Epic Bonus)
29 - +1 Caster Level (Epic Bonus)
30 - +1 Caster Level (Epic Bonus)

With this you would get +8(10) Caster Level total, no matter if you were in a Primary or Off Destiny by the time your 28(30). In fact, casters could do 21-25 in a Primary Destiny for the +Caster Levels early if they really felt they needed it, then switch to a Off Destiny at 26 and still have the same amount of +Caster Level, or just do an Off Destiny from 21 and get +1 per Epic level if they have high enough DC to not need that extra +5 right away, or Twist in Dc from other trees to compensate for the lower, their choice.

[Seikojin]

I think it is simple really. Add a universal spellpower multiplier into the casting cores. Something like x1.1 per core. So you get x1.6 to all your spellpowers for whatever casting destiny you are in. This would be the easiest solution.

Harder would be to break each down and offer specific elemental boosts. Which I think could be done, but is more of a pita.

[slarden]

There is nothing stopping a wizard from using EA for +3 all DCs, and twisting in Energy Burst and Spell School Specialist on live. Or from having a solid charisma score and divine grace from a paladin splash to really have good EA synergy. This change would make EA a far better destiny for wizards, improving their ED selection.

Saying EA is only good for charisma based casters is like saying LD is only good for strength based melee. LD is good for everyone wielding a weapon regardless of their damage stat, and to be honest, I've used it on casters as well for combat brute...

They should do the caster level change solely because Artificers need it, and everyone else will work out or be buffed. If one destiny *cough* LD *cough* is dominant over all others, that is an ED problem and separate issue, not a caster scaling problem.

EA is really good for a wisdom or a charisma build. I use it on my favored soul, cleric, bard and druid.

A wizard can't make great use of EA because all the abilities are based on wisdom or charisma. The great thing about the destiny is that you get 3 spell penetration and 3 DC without spending any points. To get the equivalent in Magister it costs 6 out of 24 total points.

I am not suggesting any nerfs, but it is a really great destiny.

[TackW5]

From the original proposal, it looks like the devs considered +40% spell crit damage a possible way to help with the problem. However, making it cost feats is problematic and making it cost nothing favors hybrids. The multi-selector has been identified as difficult to implement. So, my suggestion would be that each epic level grants each character:

Epic Spell Magnitude
Your spell criticals do .2% more damage per level of wizard, sorcerer, cleric, fvs, druid, artificer, or warlock
.1% more damage per level of bard, ranger, paladin, or monk (for henshins)

This means a pure caster gets 4% spell crit damage per level, which is 40% at level 30.
A pure pally gets half that much, 2% per level and 20% at level 30.
Hybrids get damage that is proportionate to their caster focus.

On a separate note, I do not see how moving CL to epic level solves the damage problem in epics, because that problem is not that level 20s do too much damage. The problem is that level 28 casters do not do enough magic damage to make a dent in hp sacks. Shifting CL around does not help that. More spell crit damage does and makes upping your spell crit chance a more valuable choice. It also multiplies spellpower advantages.

[slarden]

I like the idea of 1 Epic Level = 1 Caster Level

My concern is how that effects splash builds that will potentially gain more caster levels from epic level then what they put into their character. This is potentially stronger than the Practiced Spell Caster Feat which while discussed never seemed to gain any foothold.

Don't get me wrong my 8/6/6/ ftr/mnk/wiz EK/AA build would totally enjoy the extra levels for buff purposes. But even I can see how +8 (and eventually +10) caster levels on a 1 Level Caster Splash can make abilities like Magic Missiles very strong. I just think this should be approached with caution - maybe even a benefit limit where it caps to the number of levels actually taken.

I agree completely.

[Oxarhamar]

Brainstorming, new way to level up an Epic Level???


So we change Epic Power to read like this:
{subject to balancing, etc..}

Epic Power

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: None

Description Multi-selection: choose two of the following:

+3 Melee Power


+3 Ranged Power


+1 Caster Level in a single class ~ multi-selection of all the classes that have ability to cast spells.


+X spell power


+Y spell critical damage




Note

This feat is automatically given to all characters each time they gain an Epic level.





Spend skill points of 4 + Int Modifier on skill points.

Any Skills you already have as class skills are considered class skills for this level.
{The DDO program already recognizes such and grants full skill points therein.}




Where X and Y are 3 or more.



I like the concept but, I only find one of those Multi selectors interesting... More please

[Iriale]

From the original proposal, it looks like the devs considered +40% spell crit damage a possible way to help with the problem. However, making it cost feats is problematic and making it cost nothing favors hybrids. The multi-selector has been identified as difficult to implement. So, my suggestion would be that each epic level grants each character:

Epic Spell Magnitude
Your spell criticals do .2% more damage per level of wizard, sorcerer, cleric, fvs, druid, artificer, or warlock
.1% more damage per level of bard, ranger, paladin, or monk (for henshins)

This means a pure caster gets 4% spell crit damage per level, which is 40% at level 30.
A pure pally gets half that much, 2% per level and 20% at level 30.
Hybrids get damage that is proportionate to their caster focus.
wow. I love this idea so much!!! +1!!


On a separate note, I do not see how moving CL to epic level solves the damage problem in epics, because that problem is not that level 20s do too much damage. The problem is that level 28 casters do not do enough magic damage to make a dent in hp sacks. Shifting CL around does not help that. More spell crit damage does and makes upping your spell crit chance a more valuable choice. It also multiplies spellpower advantages.
seems that the idea of moving CL to epic levels is not for the spell damage, is for a easier play in off EDs...

[spade413]

So you may consider keeping the 5 caster levels in EDs, that way a lv 30 player could have 15 extra caster levels. To that i'd add maximum caster level in the cores of EDs.

I will second this. The biggest complaint about pulling the levels from the destiny is how much it hurts at lvl 20. So, keep them in destinies and add them to epic levels. I think adding one to every class you have is an awesome idea. Melee abilites grow so much through epic that it feels pretty... well, *epic* by the time it hits endgame. Casters really don't have that same feeling.

There will probably be other things that need refinement on these lines. With that said, there are many avenues to reign in spell casting, should it be needed, such as caps on individual spells (which most already have).

[IronClan]

You do realize the already get melee and ranged power from EDs right all this is suggesting is to move it from the EDs to epic levels.

I would dearly love to see MP taken out of the ED's and added to Epic levels, and for many of the same reasons I want to see caster levels put in epic levels instead of ED's.

When Melee power came out I asked that they put the same amount in every destiny. why? Am I stoned? Just a little bat s***? Well, Because if you have a hybrid character you have poor choices for destiny, and because when you're filling out Magister on a Melee it sucks bad enough that you don't have melee abilities and you have to intentionally restrict yourself to dumbed down EN daily XP quests like Wizking and VON's because you're not only losing blizt or whatever you're ALSO losing 40% of your melee damage.

I have a melee that believe it or not I would dearly like to run in Angel ED... (hybrid melee/healing/DC casting) but he's down to nearly HALF POWER! just counting MP and he's missing out on crit range from Crusader, or blitz and the innate MP in both ED's. As if one wasn't enough it's a double whammy. The added penalty for being in an off Destiny is gratuitous and unessary... by running my hybrid melee/heal/DC caster I have already made many choices that reduce melee DPS, and Casting DC's, I am also choosing to not have blitz, advancing blows, devastating crit, Headmanschop or pulverizer. Or strike down, and Crit range from Crusader. That's enough trade off.

This exact same problem will exist when they raise heroic spell damage caps and leveling the Martial Sphere for ETR's means you suddenly lose 5 caster levels worth of the newly elevated Spell damage (it doesn't matter now, but it will when they inevitably improve heroic spell damage scaling up into Epics).

Being in an off destiny is lame and boring, it's not entertaining, it's a chore to get through... they really should try to lessen this aspect, I would do many more ETR's if it wasn't drudgery.

Even better change the system to the Karma Bank system I proposed on the PC... you get Karma to a overall pool regardless of A) what destiny you're in and B) whether you're capped or not. probably getting a reduced amount when capped, but still getting some.

[Douglas21]

There are some interesting ideas here. There's some technical limitations that may make it very difficult as-described (we don't have "pick 2" for feats on level ups, really), but possibly interesting as a launching point.
Split each benefit into its own feat and use the class bonus feat mechanism? 5 feats to choose from, 2 slots to put them in at each level.

Or is the problem that there's no way to have a class give more than one selectable bonus feat at the same level?

[Silverleafeon]

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There are some interesting ideas here. There's some technical limitations that may make it very difficult as-described (we don't have "pick 2" for feats on level ups, really), but possibly interesting as a launching point.

Hmmm...been playing MtGO and they have pick two cards, lol...


We can get around that with a lock out.
I believe there are lock outs coded in ddo?

How about offer the list twice?

Pick one of the following multiselection?

Second list, pick one of the following multi-selction (you cannot pick your first choice a second time)?

Do that for every level.

You are smart you will think of something.

[IronClan]

On a separate note, I do not see how moving CL to epic level solves the damage problem in epics, because that problem is not that level 20s do too much damage. The problem is that level 28 casters do not do enough magic damage to make a dent in hp sacks. Shifting CL around does not help that. More spell crit damage does and makes upping your spell crit chance a more valuable choice. It also multiplies spellpower advantages.

I believe Varg has stated this change would be in preparation for looking at increasing the caps on heroic damage spells dice.

[Blackheartox]

+1 caster level per epic level is not good since it heavily impacts and helps splashing and almost exclusively splashing.
Regular casters only get spell penetration from that.
Nothing else. They are actually weaker at lv 20-24 with this proposal then now.

A huge benefit to make splashing the defacto nm 1 choice of every caster is not a good direction this game should have its casting oriented at.

Repeating myself here for the 4th time i think.

[IronClan]

Don't get me wrong my 8/6/6/ ftr/mnk/wiz EK/AA build would totally enjoy the extra levels for buff purposes. But even I can see how +8 (and eventually +10) caster levels on a 1 Level Caster Splash can make abilities like Magic Missiles very strong. I just think this should be approached with caution - maybe even a benefit limit where it caps to the number of levels actually taken.

Here's the thing: there's already a lot of incentive to go high level as a caster, you might do a 10/8/2 hybrid and have fun but you're automatically -50% damage... Basically by not taking 18 on a sorc or 17 on a Wizard you're giving up a huge amount of DPS and also instakills.

Mass Hold Monster is just that good.

So yeah a Shiradi can get filled out Magic Missiles and CM's so what... a mid level wizard already is filled out... so what we're talking about is really marginal and there's a fantastically hard to compensate for loss of helpless damage.

That said: I would be okay with gating the maximum caster levels you can choose to take during epic level up by some forumula... maybe 2 levels in a class = 1 to your cap on caster level choices? 20 wizard would be 10, 15 wizard would be 7...

[Silverleafeon]

I like the concept but, I only find one of those Multi selectors interesting... More please

Possible additions:

+Z Hit Points

+Z/2 Spell Points

+K Healing Amp

+X Devotion

and other obvious melee stuff like double strike, off hand hits and the like

but we have to be careful there as most melee are powerful arleady

[Angelic-council]

.. This is the real headache material right here. This suppose to be magical damage in epics, and the way how to boost it "in epics". We have interesting idea, but.. People know nothing about the balance. I feel like, It doesn't matter anymore. We are not only talking about fair caster damage increase, but also melee/ranged power, double strike, caster level. Varg has "proffesional opinion" so, I'll just leave him to decide. Whatever changes turbine make, later it become all clear.

[Silverleafeon]

The problem arises when you have a sorcerer in, say, exalted angel. They have synergy with charisma.

Exalted Angel is a Favored Soul ED, Avenging Angel is a Favored Soul Enhancement Tree.

Someday the Devs need to realize that Favored Souls want wisdom!

That is how that whole tangle started.

Favored Souls are the main class that get terrible capstones, granting Cha.

[Failedlegend]

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There are some interesting ideas here. There's some technical limitations that may make it very difficult as-described (we don't have "pick 2" for feats on level ups, really), but possibly interesting as a launching point.

No ida if this will work at all but maybe Grant two "Power" Feats per level but make 10 different versions of them with different pre-reqs (IOW Lvl 20,Lvl 21,Lvl22, Lvl 23, etc.) than have io so you cannot have two of the same feat (ie. + 1 Wizard Caster Level x 2 would not be possible because Lvl 23 +1 Caster Level would be an anti-requisite of itself)

Other than that some people mention that Casters are slightly biased against with the list so I'd be in favor of either adding more options (double strike/shot?) or coming spellpower and spell critical.



.. This is the real headache material right here. This suppose to be magical damage in epics, and the way how to boost it "in epics". We have interesting idea, but.. People know nothing about the balance. I feel like, It doesn't matter anymore. We are not only talking about fair caster damage increase, but also melee/ranged power, double strike, caster level. Varg has "proffesional opinion" so, I'll just leave him to decide. Whatever changes turbine make, later it become all clear.

You really don't listen do you I've addressed you issue several times, we are not proposing adding ANYTHING to melee/ranged were proposing removing the melee/ranged power from EDs (along with Caster DCs, spellpower, etc.) and moving them to epic levels w/ a sort of build your of feat style to limit it. This allows for greater freedom for DC casters mainly and allows people who don't have EDs to be functional in epics.

So really NO ONE is getting a "buff" perse EDs are just becoming less restrictive for DC Casters. (every ED already has Melee/Ranged Power) So no this will NOT "fix" casters but it's a start, if we keep rebuffing the devs from doing small changes it will take a billion times longer to fix this (since they will have to convince WB to let them spend a large amount of time on something that "makes no money" as far as the accountants are concerned...a couple man hours here and there are less likely to be noticed)

There is also discussion of adjusting CL caps on spells so maybe comment on that with actual suggestions instead of whining?

[IronClan]

+1 caster level per epic level is not good since it heavily impacts and helps splashing and almost exclusively splashing.
Regular casters only get spell penetration from that.
Nothing else. They are actually weaker at lv 20-24 with this proposal then now.

A huge benefit to make splashing the defacto nm 1 choice of every caster is not a good direction this game should have its casting oriented at.

Repeating myself here for the 4th time i think.

See the post right above and below yours, the change to caster levels is clearly intended to dovetail with increased caps on heroic damage dice. Also as explained a middle level hybrid caster outside of Shiradi is basically giving up being any good at Spell DPS no matter if he gets full Delayed blast fireball or not.

Think about it: right now a 10th level hybrid wizard needs 10 additional caster levels to max out DBF, or Chain Lightning..... Right now these spells do not scale into EE enough to bother with.

If a 10 Wizard 10 something else got 10 caster levels he would be able to cast a spell that is not currently good enough.

If they raise DBF or Chain Lightning to Maximum 35 caster levels with 15 more 1d3+3's possible guess what happens?

A) the Wizard with 20 levels +10 from epic they can cast it at 30*
B) the 10th level wizard with 10 from epic levels can cast it at 20*.. which we've already astablished is not good enough!
C) the 10th level wizard also can't cant Mass hold Monster and is thus handicapped -50% unless he's in Shiradi in which case the elevated caster levels mean little to him anyway as a 10th level wizard has plenty of MM's.

* I am ignoring gear in both cases because both of them can wear Arcane augmentation gear

[Kalevor]

From the original proposal, it looks like the devs considered +40% spell crit damage a possible way to help with the problem. However, making it cost feats is problematic and making it cost nothing favors hybrids. The multi-selector has been identified as difficult to implement. So, my suggestion would be that each epic level grants each character:

Epic Spell Magnitude
Your spell criticals do .2% more damage per level of wizard, sorcerer, cleric, fvs, druid, artificer, or warlock
.1% more damage per level of bard, ranger, paladin, or monk (for henshins)

This means a pure caster gets 4% spell crit damage per level, which is 40% at level 30.
A pure pally gets half that much, 2% per level and 20% at level 30.
Hybrids get damage that is proportionate to their caster focus.



win +1

[Iriale]

Exalted Angel is a Favored Soul ED, Avenging Angel is a Favored Soul Enhancement Tree.

Someday the Devs need to realize that Favored Souls want wisdom!

That is how that whole tangle started.

Favored Souls are the main class that get terrible capstones, granting Cha.
exalted angel is a very good ED for fvs-- +3 DC for trascendental magic, nice SLAs and dps, boost on positive spellpower, wis on cores... divine wrath!... the ED is perfect for clerics and fvs. The ED don't need boosts or nerfs for these classes* . The problem is the sinergy with cha-arcanes... is not wai, i think, and too much. Really, trascendental magic should not be applied to cha-builds.

* only changes if the mana efficiency and magical dps problem is fixed on the EDs, but in this is not different of the other caster EDs.

[HastyPudding]

How about a more specific, more 'role' -based choice?

Choose one of the following for each epic level you take:
Martial Epic Level
- +3 melee power
- +3 HP
- +1% doublestrike

Ranged Epic Level
- +3 ranged power
- +3 HP
- +1% doubleshot

Guardian Epic Level
- +6 HP
- +2 PRR and MRR
- +2 AC

Divine Epic Level
- +3 light, positive, sonic, and negative spellpower
- +1 caster level
- +1 PRR and MRR

Arcane Epic Level
- +3 fire, acid, electric, and cold spellpower
- +1 caster level
- +10 SP

Or, you could go even more specific, and make an epic level that shows off each class, and you can pick which type of epic level you want; like a barbarian epic level giving melee power and HP or a wizard level giving caster levels and universal spellpower. Things like that. That way if you multiclassed you could select from multiple epic levels depending on how you want to build your character.

[Iriale]

EA is really good for a wisdom or a charisma build. I use it on my favored soul, cleric, bard and druid.

A wizard can't make great use of EA because all the abilities are based on wisdom or charisma. The great thing about the destiny is that you get 3 spell penetration and 3 DC without spending any points. To get the equivalent in Magister it costs 6 out of 24 total points.

I am not suggesting any nerfs, but it is a really great destiny.
on magister costs 15 of 24 total points. I wish that it cost only 6!!! :-) Really the ability increases are a big tax for a spellcasters too. As melee, you don't need invest on abilities and you can spend the points in fancy skills as more critical, special attacks, etc. As DC caster, half of points are invested on abilities, if you invest too on spell penetration only left 9 points to invest in special attacks and DPS. Comparing this with the 24 points of melees... indeed, the spellcasters have too many taxes. In the EDs. In the casting feats. On the gear (you not just need spellpower, DC, lore ... is that this is needed in various schools... with a melee with epic ethereal bracers, epic innocent boots and a TF weapon you are set... now, you compare epic embers with the innocent boots... boots, all DC tactical melee boots on a item; epic embers... one spellpower (and repeated on epic inferno and sage's gloves) and metamagic reduction to one -one for an epic item????- metamagic feat... and one very secondary. At least the lore is great. But, where is the item equivalent to these boots, or the ethereal bracers, for casters?

[Failedlegend]

How about a more specific, more 'role' -based choice?


This would punish hybrids greatly and as a big fan of gishes i'm against that.

[MonadRebelion]

How about a more specific, more 'role' -based choice?

Choose one of the following for each epic level you take:
Martial Epic Level
- +3 melee power
- +3 HP
- +1% doublestrike

Ranged Epic Level
- +3 ranged power
- +3 HP
- +1% doubleshot

Guardian Epic Level
- +6 HP
- +2 PRR and MRR
- +2 AC

Divine Epic Level
- +3 light, positive, sonic, and negative spellpower
- +1 caster level
- +1 PRR and MRR

Arcane Epic Level
- +3 fire, acid, electric, and cold spellpower
- +1 caster level
- +10 SP

Or, you could go even more specific, and make an epic level that shows off each class, and you can pick which type of epic level you want; like a barbarian epic level giving melee power and HP or a wizard level giving caster levels and universal spellpower. Things like that. That way if you multiclassed you could select from multiple epic levels depending on how you want to build your character.

This looks like unnecessary power creep to me.

More generally, I don't like the multi-selector idea because I think pure class casters need to always come out ahead of multiclass ones. It should not be possible for non-pure casters to be casting most spells as if they were pure casters, and for spells with no maximum level cap on benefits a pure caster should be the clear winner. If future caster revamps move towards removing caps on caster level benefits, those who pick the extra spell level on the multi-selector will win out over other casters by a wide margin.

[Mahatu]

We're happy to hear which ones players feel are unbalanced (either too strong or too weak). It's not clear from this which ones you think are "not equal", or in what way.

Well, the ranged and melee power are really nice boosts for builds that use them of course. I like the +1 caster level quite a lot, though as I said I would like to see it apply to all existing caster classes on your character. Casters that use more than one casting class is a PnP archetype that is pretty underrepresented in DDO and this could be a way to make them a little more viable. Not a huge deal, but something I think could be fun. The spell point pool boost seems a little unessesary depending on how much you get per level. Most casters by epic levels have plenty of spell points to be getting on with, but I am sure that some builds would find it handy if the amount of spell points was decent (25? 50?).

I could see the hit points certainly being worth while (again, depending on the amount), though I am a little concerned about the massive gulfs of hitpoints between your more tanky type characters and everyone else. Don't get me wrong, tanks should certainly get return for their investment and be given the tools to be successful at their jobs (which of course includes lots of bonus HP) but I feel like the difference in hitpoints is getting pretty large and I don't want the high end to be where damage is balanced for general damage that characters will receive (boss mobs and such things being a different matter, of course). Maybe just chalk up the concern to my generalized anxiety disorder. =P

Spell crit damage multiplier is think is really good hear, and a really important thing to have. As I and others have pointed out in various posts, on of the big problems with caster damage scaling in epics is how there are so few stats that you can use to advance it (particularly when it comes to gear options) and adding this stat will give another multiplicative bonus that I think casters really need. The +5% per level sounds pretty good to me, but I am sure that it would have to be tested in a more live environment to see if the numbers need adjusting (but that is true of pretty much everything).

Which brings us down to the spell power bonus. I really feel this is the weakest one out of the bunch. There are already tons of ways to get spellpower, and it is plenty easy to get 300-400 spellpower for your preferred types in epics, more with metamagics. While even +6 spell power per epic level would be nice to have (+60 at 30), it will still be a much smaller damage/healing bonus comparatively than spell crit damage. As said, I feel casters need new options to increase the damage and general power of their spells and I don't think more spell power is really doing the job at this point. Increased max caster level for spells could be an option, even if you restricted it so that it only could be taken every so many epic levels.

If the proposed "pick two" idea doesn't quite work, you could always take these bonuses and merge them into a couple of different feats, each containing several bonuses connected thematically. Something like Melee Combatant, Ranged Combatant, Spell Caster, or Spell Sword, and maybe one that has a little bit of everything for the true generalist. A setup like that could still allow for diverse builds while getting around the restriction of only being able to pick one feat at a time. Not sure it is the best solution, but it is a thought.

Also, is there a concern about just giving, say, the melee power, ranged power, caster level and spell crit bonuses to all characters baseline for each epic level? Would that be too strong with certain multiclass builds? I am just not sure why splitting up these bonuses is necessary (though I may just be being dense).

Again, thanks for the continued interaction with the community!

[Mahatu]

on magister costs 15 of 24 total points. I wish that it cost only 6!!! :-) Really the ability increases are a big tax for a spellcasters too. As melee, you don't need invest on abilities and you can spend the points in fancy skills as more critical, special attacks, etc. As DC caster, half of points are invested on abilities, if you invest too on spell penetration only left 9 points to invest in special attacks and DPS. Comparing this with the 24 points of melees... indeed, the spellcasters have too many taxes. In the EDs. In the casting feats. On the gear (you not just need spellpower, DC, lore ... is that this is needed in various schools... with a melee with epic ethereal bracers, epic innocent boots and a TF weapon you are set... now, you compare epic embers with the innocent boots... boots, all DC tactical melee boots on a item; epic embers... one spellpower (and repeated on epic inferno and sage's gloves) and metamagic reduction to one -one for an epic item????- metamagic feat... and one very secondary. At least the lore is great. But, where is the item equivalent to these boots, or the ethereal bracers, for casters?

I agree, there is certainly a heck of a lot more that you have to work around if you want to even just be a viable caster in this game, let alone a good one. And I wouldn't mind that as much if you actually got something more for your efforts, but you really don't as a general rule. Don't get me wrong, I love casters and they do really well in heroics, but they just can't seem to get enough of anything (damage, DCs, spell pen, ect.) in epics and even getting what we can leaves us with few interesting options.

[Silverleafeon]

exalted angel is a very good ED for fvs-- +3 DC for trascendental magic, nice SLAs and dps, boost on positive spellpower, wis on cores... divine wrath!... the ED is perfect for clerics and fvs. The ED don't need boosts or nerfs for these classes* . The problem is the sinergy with cha-arcanes... is not wai, i think, and too much. Really, trascendental magic should not be applied to cha-builds.

I agree with you.

The reason the +3 was added is because Favored Soul Capstone, and the two ED boosts all grant +2 cha.
Therefore, Divines were several points below everyone else.
Hence the +3 is added. to rebalance.
At the time, two wrongs did make a right, since Arcanes lose their caster levels there.

If you want to fix that, grant Favored Souls the +X wisdom they deserve, then you can remove the transcen magic without nerfing or buffing favored souls/clerics.




* only changes if the mana efficiency and magical dps problem is fixed on the EDs, but in this is not different of the other caster EDs.

I agree we need to review mana efficency.

[Silverleafeon]

on magister costs 15 of 24 total points.


This is why Epic Destiny levels need to increase to 10.

It grants about +20 epic destiny points to spend in the trees.
This will make magistar look more attractive before any more fixes.
Making it even more attractive after some "fixes" later on.


If the extra ED levels are not granted right away, that will solve power surge at level 20.
Something like opening up at 28+,

or the
Hybrid ED system
granting
level 6 at character level 26, {granting +4 ED points to spend in tree}
level 7, at character level 27, {granting +4 ED points to spend in tree}
level 8, at character level 27, {granting +4 ED points to spend in tree}
level 9, at character level 29, {granting +4 ED points to spend in tree}
level 10, at character level 30 {granting +4 ED points to spend in tree}

Points are not available to spend until one has earned them in the tree.
XP for ED trees scales in the same formulas already in place.
Any reincarnation of any form will reset the above granted extra ED points.




By untying the caster levels from the Epic Destiny levels we are free to add more easily.

The current spending on trees makes the EDs look like Ghost Towns.
More points to spend mean more Null Magics in Magistar which is actually very effective as my druid (who cares not for Int) found out.

Yes, Magistar could use an overview, but its some of its best parts are inaccessable due to not enough points to spend in that ED.

Even Exalted Angel benefits, with Reborn in Light suddenly available which augments divines the most.

[onny]

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There are some interesting ideas here. There's some technical limitations that may make it very difficult as-described (we don't have "pick 2" for feats on level ups, really), but possibly interesting as a launching point.

I always thought practiced spellcaster would fit really well in DDO though I can understand the multiclass fear... (for those that don't know it: requires 4 ranks of spellcraft. increase caster lvl by 4 but not greater then character level. so multiclass would be 4 levels higher in every casting class they took for the purpose of spell effects, and at epic they could be cl 24 rather then 20.

[Silverleafeon]

We cannot approach rebalancing ED without taking into consideration whether ED levels can/will/should go to level 10.

We cannot move the level cap to 30 without taking into account that ED are 4th edition epic levels and are tied into the Epic Levels intrinsically from a design standpoint.

We can ignore such, but doing so will only create more problems later on.
We must face and consider such in the very near future.

[Iriale]

This is why Epic Destiny levels need to increase to 10.

It grants about +20 epic destiny points to spend in the trees.
This will make magistar look more attractive before any more fixes.
Making it even more attractive after some "fixes" later on.


If the extra ED levels are not granted right away, that will solve power surge at level 20.
Something like opening up at 28+,

or the
Hybrid ED system
granting
level 6 at character level 26, {granting +4 ED points to spend in tree}
level 7, at character level 27, {granting +4 ED points to spend in tree}
level 8, at character level 27, {granting +4 ED points to spend in tree}
level 9, at character level 29, {granting +4 ED points to spend in tree}
level 10, at character level 30 {granting +4 ED points to spend in tree}

Points are not available to spend until one has earned them in the tree.
XP for ED trees scales in the same formulas already in place.
Any reincarnation of any form will reset the above granted extra ED points.




By untying the caster levels from the Epic Destiny levels we are free to add more easily.

The current spending on trees makes the EDs look like Ghost Towns.
More points to spend mean more Null Magics in Magistar which is actually very effective as my druid (who cares not for Int) found out.

Yes, Magistar could use an overview, but its some of its best parts are inaccessable due to not enough points to spend in that ED.

Even Exalted Angel benefits, with Reborn in Light suddenly available which augments divines the most.
well, the tax on abilities is for all traditional spellcasters, not only for those that play on magister. Is needed that ablities cost 2 destiny points? I think is too much. It eats the half of your destiny points, only for +3 DC, while with those 12 points melees have bought a lot of fancy boosts. As spellcaster, you can't have many points for buy things outside DC, and the DCs on the game are so high that you need invest in these abilities. To be a spellcaster is very expensive on this game!!! You got taxed for all!

I am not sure that we need more destiny points. With melees I don't spend on abilities and i feel that i have a lot of great boosts for my 24 points. I think that the high cost in abilities leaves little room for casters to buy other things. With a cost 1 destiny point/ability, we could use more our EDs.... more as a melee can use his EDs xD. 6 points of 24 seems a more reasonable cost for +3 DC.

[Tyrande]

I'd make something like:

Choose 2 from:
3 Ranged power
3 Melee Power
1% doublestrike and doubleshot
5 Universal spell power and 1% crit change with spells
1 Caster levels in one of: Wiz/Sor/Art or Cler/Fvs/Pal or Dru/Rgr

This way with 2 choices you could make a pure caster/ranger/melee or mix it up as it suits you.

Also [...]i'd add maximum caster level in the cores of EDs.

Sounds like a middle ground proposal here; but where does Warlock and future caster classes like Psionics (if they ever make it) fit into this equation?

[davmuzl]

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There are some interesting ideas here. There's some technical limitations that may make it very difficult as-described (we don't have "pick 2" for feats on level ups, really), but possibly interesting as a launching point.

Wouldn't this be the same as class feats?

[Blackheartox]

See the post right above and below yours, the change to caster levels is clearly intended to dovetail with increased caps on heroic damage dice. Also as explained a middle level hybrid caster outside of Shiradi is basically giving up being any good at Spell DPS no matter if he gets full Delayed blast fireball or not.

Think about it: right now a 10th level hybrid wizard needs 10 additional caster levels to max out DBF, or Chain Lightning..... Right now these spells do not scale into EE enough to bother with.

If a 10 Wizard 10 something else got 10 caster levels he would be able to cast a spell that is not currently good enough.

If they raise DBF or Chain Lightning to Maximum 35 caster levels with 15 more 1d3+3's possible guess what happens?

A) the Wizard with 20 levels +10 from epic they can cast it at 30*
B) the 10th level wizard with 10 from epic levels can cast it at 20*.. which we've already astablished is not good enough!
C) the 10th level wizard also can't cant Mass hold Monster and is thus handicapped -50% unless he's in Shiradi in which case the elevated caster levels mean little to him anyway as a 10th level wizard has plenty of MM's.

* I am ignoring gear in both cases because both of them can wear Arcane augmentation gear

No problem, if this change goes live, il present the community the most broken hybrid shiradi caster build and totally nerf the caster level idea week 1 before people have the time to realize what was broken and how dumb this change would had been.
/uhm english to hard

I am pretty confident that almost everyone who plays casters in epic elite epic content knows that the caster level Wont fix anything but push toward specific few builds being broken. /im pointing toward people who are capable of soloing mark on eh/en and can cc on ee as wiz sorc or are capable of building a evoker fsoul/cleric that is capable of soloing most ee content.
The crit damage is ok change, IF added to destiny cores.
And only IF the damage on crit is seperate from shiradi then we stand a chance of making casters ballanced.


Casters need boss dps, everything above that will break the game.
Esp dc casters, shiradi can handle /maybe slow without tea/ boss fights just fine due to sp efficiency.
Warlock will entirely dominate once it hits live with sp efficiency on shiradi builds.
It will literally make shiradi super strong in this first implementation.

They dont need more then warlock

[Silverleafeon]

well, the tax on abilities is for all traditional spellcasters, not only for those that play on magister. Is needed that ablities cost 2 destiny points? I think is too much. It eats the half of your destiny points, only for +3 DC, while with those 12 points melees have bought a lot of fancy boosts. As spellcaster, you can't have many points for buy things outside DC, and the DCs on the game are so high that you need invest in these abilities. To be a spellcaster is very expensive on this game!!! You got taxed for all!

I am not sure that we need more destiny points. With melees I don't spend on abilities and i feel that i have a lot of great boosts for my 24 points. I think that the high cost in abilities leaves little room for casters to buy other things. With a cost 1 destiny point/ability, we could use more our EDs.... more as a melee can use his EDs xD. 6 points of 24 seems a more reasonable cost for +3 DC.

Well, we certainly agree on one point. The current amount of goodies a caster can purchase inside an ED tree is too low.

I think if I look long enough, I'll find a melee who would enjoy having a few more points in Con or Str or Dex...

[Iriale]

Well, we certainly agree on one point. The current amount of goodies a caster can purchase inside an ED tree is too low.

I think if I look long enough, I'll find a melee who would enjoy having a few more points in Con or Str or Dex...
understand me, I could enjoy more points on any toon, caster or warrior. But I feel it is a bit of greed; my melees work really well, not *need* more. I think everyone would enjoy with more points... but also create more power creep, and we would still have the fact that melees can buy more goodies than the casters with the same number of points... just because the abilities cost crazy high, and the abilities are a must have for casters.

My opinion, of course. I can to be wrong. But for me, ED melee crit boosts >>>>>> than +3 DC. And what crit boost cost 12 points???

[Silverleafeon]

No problem, if this change goes live, il present the community the most broken hybrid shiradi caster build

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/440241-Yeela-FvS-17-Wiz-1-Monk-2-Healer-and-Dps-Shiradi-MM-spammer


Somebody beat you to it; been available for a long time.
If Warlock makes this worse, then Warlock needs to be examined more closely.

[Vargouille]

Wouldn't this be the same as class feats?

Not for "taking two" per level, especially in addition to existing "special" feats (such as you get at level 26 and 28).