I still don't understand: Why Warlocks?

[Daleisme1]

Why does DDO even bother with Warlocks? Especially using the pacts, and not Invocations. To me, it is a big mistake. Warlocks are Any-Evil alignment. But I suppose, if they can restrict Paladins to Lawful Good, they can get away with whatever alignment changes for Warlock they wish.

I still believe: Why Pact Warlocks? Those are my absolute least favorite.

This below is a True Warlock.

http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/warlock-invocations

[PKMN12]

Why does DDO even bother with Warlocks? Especially using the pacts, and not Invocations. To me, it is a big mistake. Warlocks are Any-Evil alignment. But I suppose, if they can restrict Paladins to Lawful Good, they can get away with whatever alignment changes for Warlock they wish.

I still believe: Why Pact Warlocks? Those are my absolute least favorite.

This below is a True Warlock.

http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/warlock-invocations

4th and 5th edition got rid of the non-pact warlock AND made the Warlock a core class. WOW also probably helped a bit since their warlocks have a similar flavor.

there is basically no such thing as a non-pact warlock anymore, it was too close to a sorcerer or favored soul (or invoker/oracle if you want to get into pathfinder and 4th edition) anyway, as its description LITERALLY says it got its power from a bloodline.

Also, having only evil as an alignment was a idiotic decision in the first place. dark powers DOES NOT equal bad people.

as for invocations.....they were essentially a list of arcane spells, it even mentions many of them are almost no different to their regular spell equivalents. they even had arcane spell failure like a normal arcane caster.

[Memnir]

They've been oft requested for years, and likely easier to implement then other options like Psionics.

Personally, I'd much rather have seen a new base-level, non-Iconic, race added... like Gnome or Kobold. But, c'est la vie. Warlocks might be more fun then I'm expecting them to be.

[PKMN12]

They've been oft requested for years, and likely easier to implement then other options like Psionics.

Personally, I'd much rather have seen a new base-level, non-Iconic, race added... like Gnome or Kobold. But, c'est la vie. Warlocks might be more fun then I'm expecting them to be.

Dragonborn (NOT sure how they would work) or Teifling would have been awesome............just saying.............

[Steve_Howe]

Dragonborn (NOT sure how they would work) or Teifling would have been awesome............just saying.............

Those are RACES. Warlock is a CLASS.

CLASSES are cheaper to design and implement because VERY LITTLE new artwork needs to be done for them. Races, however, require LOTS of new art and animations to be done which requires a LOT more cash to do.

[PKMN12]

Those are RACES. Warlock is a CLASS.

CLASSES are cheaper to design and implement because VERY LITTLE new artwork needs to be done for them. Races, however, require LOTS of new art and animations to be done which requires a LOT more cash to do.

yeah.......please read the comment i had quoted. He mentioned he would have liked new races as well/instead....i was simply pointing out other cool races...........

[phillymiket]

They've been oft requested for years, and likely easier to implement then other options like Psionics.

Personally, I'd much rather have seen a new base-level, non-Iconic, race added... like Gnome or Kobold. But, c'est la vie. Warlocks might be more fun then I'm expecting them to be.

If people had wanted gnomes they should have said something!

I'm joking of course. We have been asking for many things over the years but since forever gnomes have always been at the top of the lists.

I also don't quite understand why warlocks, why shadar-kai, why purple dragon knights and not the thing that has a 100% chance of garnering cheers, hallelujahs and finallys.

But still, warlocks should be cool and I look forward to them.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Did you notice that those invocations are really weak?

[Uska]

Dragonborn (NOT sure how they would work) or Teifling would have been awesome............just saying.............

As much as I loath warlocks I hate dragonboring much much more it's the absolute last thing I would want see added to the game.

A class was a better choice for now as it is easier to do I,just wish it had been a different choice

[Steve_Howe]

A class was a better choice for now as it is easier to do I,just wish it had been a different choice
Which class or classes would you have preferred over Warlock?

[Uska]

Which class or classes would you have preferred over Warlock?

Anything even the NPC style classes but in all reality I would rather they finished and fixed the current classes

[richieelias27]

Those are RACES. Warlock is a CLASS.

CLASSES are cheaper to design and implement because VERY LITTLE new artwork needs to be done for them. Races, however, require LOTS of new art and animations to be done which requires a LOT more cash to do.

You'd think so, normally...

Of the 4 new races introduced (iconics):

Only one required a single new animation (chain attack).

None required new models outside of slightly changed heads and flair

Only 2 involved new textures.

So yeah....

They spent FAR more art effort on just a single monster introduced at the same time as Iconics than they did on all of the Iconic characters combined.

Honestly though I was only mildly disappointed with the above. I'm happy to have more toys.

Besides, if you want to go the "cheaper" route. The cost of time spent implementing and balancing an entire new class is probably much higher than a new race (which has a much smaller tree, and tends to share most of it with the rest of the races), art included.

[Steve_Howe]

You'd think so, normally...

Of the 4 new races introduced (iconics):

Only one required a single new animation (chain attack).

None required new models outside of slightly changed heads and flair

Only 2 involved new textures.

So yeah....
Tieflings (with tails, which is what Severiln has mentioned in other posts) would DEFINITELY require a new model with animations.

Pretty sure Dragonborn would also have required some new animations unless you just wanted to re-skin tha Half-Orc or PDK.

[FranOhmsford]

Tieflings (with tails, which is what Severiln has mentioned in other posts) would DEFINITELY require a new model with animations.


DDO Has Tieflings in game already and I've never seen a single tail on any of them!

Why would PC Tieflings need tails exactly?

This is DDO not Neverwinter!


http://ddowiki.com/images/Monster_Tiefling_CoalescenceChamber_official.jpg

See...No tail!

[richieelias27]

Tieflings (with tails, which is what Severiln has mentioned in other posts) would DEFINITELY require a new model with animations.

Pretty sure Dragonborn would also have required some new animations unless you just wanted to re-skin tha Half-Orc or PDK.

Human model/animations with Horn flair, possibly tail flair.

Zero new models/animations required.

PDK *is* a reskin of the Half-Orc. And yes, they would likely go with a reskinned Half-Orc.

Gnome - Probably halfing model with an even weirder head.

Mind you I'm not bashing turbine for being lazy with the character art assets. You gotta do what you gotta do (a new character model would also mean a new model for every single armor in the game), and I'm more concerned with having new things to play with. Just being honest.

Also, you get way more bang for your buck with a new class than a new race. Of which all pretty much play the same with some minor variation.

[Steve_Howe]

DDO Has Tieflings in game already and I've never seen a single tail on any of them!

Why would PC Tieflings need tails exactly?

This is DDO not Neverwinter!

See...No tail!

You'd need to ask Severlin that. He's the one who suggested Tiefling PCs would have tails.

[Steve_Howe]

Human model/animations with Horn flair, possibly tail flair.

Zero new models/animations required.

I absolutely GUARANTEE that if Tiefling was a PC race and if they had tails, the tails would not just hang there. They would swing in certain directions while the toon stood around, they'd swing even more ways during combat. Heck there would also have to be two new /Dance commands and they would certainly require more animations.

This isn't as easy as you think, my friend.

Agree with you on the more bang for the buck on new classes though.

[richieelias27]

I absolutely GUARANTEE that if Tiefling was a PC race and if they had tails, the tails would not just hang there. They would swing in certain directions while the toon stood around, they'd swing even more ways during combat. Heck there would also have to be two new /Dance commands and they would certainly require more animations.

This isn't as easy as you think, my friend.

Agree with you on the more bang for the buck on new classes though.

As a modeler and animator myself, I can tell you it isn't all that complex at all (depending on the method). Likely they would just use a very simple animation for running/swinging. If that looked too awkward and bad (probably would), they would likely opt for no tail at all. Making entirely new animations (Anything beyond simple movements, interacting with their own tail for instance) for a reused model just for a tail would be more work than it would be worth. In my opinion.

Now if they wanted to do another paid expansion with a high amount of new content and an entirely new character model (or more than one actually, with multiple new races and 1 or 2 classes that mesh well with said races), now that would be worth the effort involved. Not likely to happen though.

[Steve_Howe]

As a modeler and animator myself, I can tell you it isn't all that complex at all (depending on the method). Likely they would just use a very simple animation for running/swinging. If that looked too awkward and bad (probably would), they would likely opt for no tail at all. Making entirely new animations (and make them look good anyway) for a reused model just for a tail would be more work than it would be worth. In my opinion.

Agreed. Putting a tail on Tieflings would be a mistake.

[Daleisme1]

4th and 5th edition got rid of the non-pact warlock AND made the Warlock a core class. WOW also probably helped a bit since their warlocks have a similar flavor.

there is basically no such thing as a non-pact warlock anymore, it was too close to a sorcerer or favored soul (or invoker/oracle if you want to get into pathfinder and 4th edition) anyway, as its description LITERALLY says it got its power from a bloodline.

Also, having only evil as an alignment was a idiotic decision in the first place. dark powers DOES NOT equal bad people.

as for invocations.....they were essentially a list of arcane spells, it even mentions many of them are almost no different to their regular spell equivalents. they even had arcane spell failure like a normal arcane caster.

DDO is 3.5 Edition, and in my opinion a superior edition. This isn't about higher editions. DDO is 3.5 Edition. Also, 3.5 Edition Warlock is required Any-Evil Alignment. Not my opinion, that is how they were designed. Invocations are NOT Arcane spells. Did you even look at the link I placed? They are much different. They can be used almost endlessly.

[Daleisme1]

I suppose in the end, the Warlock class can be compared to a Fish. What turbine is doing is killing it, and gutting it, but in the end its still a fish. Even if I don't agree with it, it most likely won't be stopped, and once that fish is dead, its dead. No going back after that. Just fry it up, and eat what you killed.

[cdbd3rd]

... But I suppose, if they can restrict Paladins to Lawful Good, they can get away with whatever alignment changes for Warlock they wish...


Erm, asaik, paladins have always required LG.

(I paused to Google and see that that failure called 4th edition actually did away with that.)

But anyhow, in 3.5 and other worthy editions, paladins have always been LG.

**and**

That said, as always, this is DDO not PnP. Some variations to fit an MMO model have to be made.

**and**

House rules always rule the game.

**and**

...and I think I'm out of **and**s. :)

[LongshotBro]

DDO is 3.5 Edition, and in my opinion a superior edition. This isn't about higher editions. DDO is 3.5 Edition. Also, 3.5 Edition Warlock is required Any-Evil Alignment. Not my opinion, that is how they were designed. Invocations are NOT Arcane spells. Did you even look at the link I placed? They are much different. They can be used almost endlessly.

Warlocks were introduced to 3.5 in the Complete Arcane splat book. In the game rule information there, it reads "Alignment: Any evil or any chaotic." So, in DDO terms this would limit to CG and CN only. There are non-evil alignments in-game that would still uphold the 3.5 rules, if that is a concern.

[fmalfeas]

Agreed. Putting a tail on Tieflings would be a mistake.

However, Annah had a tail, and she's one of the very, very few even semi-iconic tiefling heroes out there.

Mind you, I wouldn't /entirely/ complain about stormreach being overrun with Annah's in her 'my body temp is 120 degrees, so you better believe I'm not gonna wear heavier stuff, I'd sweat to death!' outfits.

[PKMN12]

DDO is 3.5 Edition, and in my opinion a superior edition. This isn't about higher editions. DDO is 3.5 Edition. Also, 3.5 Edition Warlock is required Any-Evil Alignment. Not my opinion, that is how they were designed. Invocations are NOT Arcane spells. Did you even look at the link I placed? They are much different. They can be used almost endlessly.

well, does not really matter what you think is the better edition, because there are A LOT of differences between DDO and 3.5 anyway, so that argument matters little. Besides, even YOU said that the pact warlock WAS an option in background for 3.5 'locks so even with all your 3.5 elitism, it does not matter.

As said above, you are completely wrong about alignment, it is any-evil OR ANY-CHAOTIC, so again, your elitism screws you over there too.

also, as i said before, even the LINKS you have say that many of the invocations are VERY similar to arcane spells (it used the fog arcane spell and an invocation that was simlar as an example). They even go by the rules of arcane spells, and for all intense and purposes they are literally no difference from arcane spells.

Finally, the pact warlock is now WAY more well known to most D&D players. i know many who played 3.5 who did not even know the warlock existed in 3.5, since it was tucked away. The pact warlock now only still works, even within the confines of 3.5, but more people have a familiarity with it.

Whether you think it is a bad idea does not matter. I mean hey this game has/had the same similar HORRIBLE balance and mechanics issues that 3.5 version....so there is that for you.

[SirValentine]

...in all reality I would rather they finished and fixed the current classes

/signed

[Red_Knight]

If people had wanted gnomes they should have said something!

I'm joking of course. We have been asking for many things over the years but since forever gnomes have always been at the top of the lists.

I also don't quite understand why warlocks, why shadar-kai, why purple dragon knights and not the thing that has a 100% chance of garnering cheers, hallelujahs and finallys.

But still, warlocks should be cool and I look forward to them.

Because the excrement that is 4th edition removed gnomes as a core race? And gave them a stupid "I can turn invisible if I get hit" ability, but that's beside the point. Are gnomes a core race for the eberaon setting? I've not actually read the book all the way through.

[zwiebelring]

Warlock is just too kewl to not be sold.

[SableShadow]

Warlock is just too kewl to not be sold.

Younger and edgy-er?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAgODVbPq78

[Uska]

Warlock is just too kewl to not be sold.
No they aren't and keel isn't cool either and get off my lawn

[Uska]

Because the excrement that is 4th edition removed gnomes as a core race? And gave them a stupid "I can turn invisible if I get hit" ability, but that's beside the point. Are gnomes a core race for the eberaon setting? I've not actually read the book all the way through.

Yes Gnomes are a key race for Eberron and should have been in from the start

[Drakos]

Because the excrement that is 4th edition removed gnomes as a core race? And gave them a stupid "I can turn invisible if I get hit" ability, but that's beside the point. Are gnomes a core race for the eberaon setting? I've not actually read the book all the way through.Yes, Gnomes are in the Eberron setting. All the core races in the PHB are considered core in Eberron. I don't particularily think that they "need' to be added to DDO, but I know my brother would love it since he loves them in PnP.

[zwiebelring]

No they aren't and keel isn't cool either and get off my lawn

You did not get it. Try again... or else mow your lawn, it's overgrown everywhere.


Younger and edgy-er?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAgODVbPq78
Of course, who gives a rat's hindy about the issues of this game when you can play a Warlock!!!! Cause we still need more base classes instead more enhancement trees and/or implementing of older ideas, which are blank links in the DDO Wiki.

[zwiebelring]

Yes Gnomes are a key race for Eberron and should have been in from the start

They are as kewl as the Warlock class....

[Theopolis]

Also, having only evil as an alignment was a idiotic decision in the first place. dark powers DOES NOT equal bad people.

[Uska]

They are as kewl as the Warlock class....

Gnomes belong warlocks don't that said gnomes would only add flavor

[Red_Knight]

Gnomes belong warlocks don't that said gnomes would only add flavor

Unless the campaign setting specifically doesn't have the class or race for one reason or another, why don't warlocks belong? Half dragons wouldn't belong according to the lore. While they do exist, they are extremely rare. But since they've already dipped into the Complete books once before with favored soul, explain to me why warlocks don't belong?

[Uska]

Unless the campaign setting specifically doesn't have the class or race for one reason or another, why don't warlocks belong? Half dragons wouldn't belong according to the lore. While they do exist, they are extremely rare. But since they've already dipped into the Complete books once before with favored soul, explain to me why warlocks don't belong?

Gnomes are a huge part of Eberron half dragons not they were hunted and exterminated bymthe Dragons and warlocks don't belong because they weren't part of core but an overpowered splat book that no GM with with brains allowed if he wanted balance in his game. Favored,souls were a mistake

[Red_Knight]

Gnomes are a huge part of Eberron half dragons not they were hunted and exterminated bymthe Dragons and warlocks don't belong because they weren't part of core but an overpowered splat book that no GM with with brains allowed if he wanted balance in his game. Favored,souls were a mistake

Favored Souls were part of Complete Divine. Since they've already used a class from one of the Complete books, clearly they are viewing those 'splat' books as valid source material. And yeah, okay having a ranged attack that eventually does 9d6 damage that can be used as often as you want could be overpowered. And considering later editions apparently are making warlock a core class, what's the problem?

Not seeing how warlocks are overpowered though. At least, not when compared to high level monks, alchemists of any level, actually pretty much anyone that gets to a high level could be considered overpowered. At which point you either retire the character in PnP games, or the game master pulls out the Epic Level Handbook and screws with the party using that.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

DDO was already full of players who sold their souls for power; just made sense. ;)

[Uska]

Favored Souls were part of Complete Divine. Since they've already used a class from one of the Complete books, clearly they are viewing those 'splat' books as valid source material. And yeah, okay having a ranged attack that eventually does 9d6 damage that can be used as often as you want could be overpowered. And considering later editions apparently are making warlock a core class, what's the problem?

Not seeing how warlocks are overpowered though. At least, not when compared to high level monks, alchemists of any level, actually pretty much anyone that gets to a high level could be considered overpowered. At which point you either retire the character in PnP games, or the game master pulls out the Epic Level Handbook and screws with the party using that.

Only a problem if you allow any of the splat books and monks weren't w problem and the problem is they shouldn't be drawing on other horrible editions and stick with the less horrible 3.X edition since they didn't go with the superior AD&D

[vertsamine86]

Which class or classes would you have preferred over Warlock?

Red Wizard of Thay would make a great iconic class

[Red_Knight]

Only a problem if you allow any of the splat books and monks weren't w problem and the problem is they shouldn't be drawing on other horrible editions and stick with the less horrible 3.X edition since they didn't go with the superior AD&D

My point was that any class by level 20 could be considered overpowered, unless the DM uses the epic level handbook. A level 20 monk is overpowered. A level 20 fighter is overpowered. A level twenty wizard or sorcerer is overpowered. So what makes the 'splat' books so bad to you that their existence should be completely ignored? Granted several classes like alchemist are heavily front loaded to the point where they can overshadow the group at low levels. But as the party goes up in levels that levels out until the alchemist is no more or less powerful then anyone else. it's just front loaded.

Hell, a crafter could be considered overpowered.

Granted, a min/maxer can push this to an even larger extreme. I know cause my gaming group has one. His alchemist made everyone feel useless for the first 4 levels due to chucking bombs at every enemy group. But anymore he's finding his 'overpowered' combos and abilities aren't all they're cracked up to be. He's nearly died multiple times because he did stuff that made him excessively powerful, but also removed his ability to get backup. Once he even made himself super powerful... only to be useless in the fight because he couldn't fit through a doorway. Or he flubs his skill checks when gathering ingredients so he can't make his mutagens and bombs until we get back to town or he does find what he needs.


Red Wizard of Thay would make a great iconic class

And aren't the red wizards of thay all uniformly evil? Where as warlocks are chaotic OR evil, thus chaotic good or chaotic neutral are perfectly valid.

[SonichuuGOTTA_GO_FAS]

it doesn't matter now, ddo has sucked for a long time, why not add some more autisticly overpowered classes to the game, the game is dead yet you guys keep playing it ***?

[Xyy]

it doesn't matter now, ddo has sucked for a long time, why not add some more autisticly overpowered classes to the game, the game is dead yet you guys keep playing it ***?I'm sorry that you are so unhappy in life that you feel the need to ruin other people's happiness.

[richieelias27]

Red Wizard of Thay would make a great iconic class

Except iconics are not a new class. It's a duplicate race with a bit of flair and a few abilities tacked onto the character enhancement tree.

[HastyPudding]

Ya know, as much as I love warlocks, I'd have loved the original idea the devs had with the knight/man-at-arms class, too. It would have made the perfect excuse to revamp summons, hirelings, and pets. I don't see how it would have stepped on the toes of druids, since they stepped on the toes of artificers, who stepped on the toes of rogue mechanics back in the day. Plus it would have just been gnarly just to walk around with your own private army (although it would have probably been the premier solo class).

Ah well, there's still hope that the druid and/or artificer revamp will bring a summon/support tree that makes the devs change up the ability and usage of pets (also a nice way to sneak in a magister revamp).

[FuryFlash]

DDO Has Tieflings in game already and I've never seen a single tail on any of them!

Why would PC Tieflings need tails exactly?

This is DDO not Neverwinter!


http://ddowiki.com/images/Monster_Tiefling_CoalescenceChamber_official.jpg

See...No tail!


Actually, you can't see it in this picture, but he does have a tail. It's a white fluffy bunny tail, he's just embarrassed to show it on camera. In fact, I find it quite insulting that you assume that his tail would be long and therefore visible in the picture.

;)