Warlock Enhancements: Tainted Scholar

[Vargouille]

Here's our current design for the Tainted Scholar enhancements!

Tainted Scholars have learned a wider variety of spells than other Warlocks, and have extensively studied methods for enhancing Eldritch Blasts, such as Eldritch Essences for changing the damage type, or alternate active forms of Eldritch Blast, such as Eldritch Chains. They've got great damage output, especially when they critically hit. They have access to Confusion, which makes enemies indiscriminately attack friends and foe.

https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/taintedscholar.jpg

Core Abilities



1 AP, class level 1: Tainted Spellcasting:

Activate for 10 Depravity: +25 Universal Spell Power, +2 bonus to all Spell DCs. Lasts 20 seconds. 60 second cooldown.
You gain 1 Depravity each time you damage enemies with Eldritch Blast or spells (except with Positive Energy). You can gain 1 Depravity every 7 seconds. Each additional trained Tainted Scholar Core enhancement reduces this cooldown by 1 second, to a minimum of 2 seconds. You can have up to 10 Depravity, which disappears on rest, death or entering public spaces.
Passive: Each point spent in Tainted Scholar provides +0.75 Universal Spell Power.
Featherfall is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 1.


5 AP, class level 3: Tainted Lore:

+10% Spell Critical Damage, +1 to Warlock Spell DCs. (Spell Critical damage also applies to criticals with Eldritch Blast.) +10 maximum Depravity.
Web is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 2.


10 AP, class level 6: Stanch:

Activate for 7 Depravity: Gains temporary hitpoints equal to your 33% of your maximum hitpoints. These last for 1 minute. You have -3% maximum hitpoints until you rest, which stacks up to 99 times.
+10 maximum Depravity.
Crushing Despair is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 3.


20 AP, class level 12: Tainted Lore:

+20% Spell Critical Damage, +1 to Warlock Spell DCs.
+10 maximum Depravity.
Death Ward is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 4.


30 AP, class level 18: Blood Component:

Your Eldritch Blast attacks 10% faster.
+10 maximum Depravity.
-25 Maximum HP
Greater Heroism is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 5.


41 AP, class level 20: Heretical Lore:

Your Eldritch Blast deals +1d6 damage. +30% Spell Critical Damage. +4 Charisma
+10 maximum Depravity.
Energy Drain is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 6.



Tier One


Planar Power: +30/60/90 Spell Points
Feigned Health: When you cast spells on yourself or allies, you grant temporary hitpoints equal to (33%/66%/100%) of your Charisma.
Command SLA: Activate for 3/2/1 Depravity:
Strong Pact: Bonus Eldritch Blast damage from your Pact is increased by 1d4. This scales with spellpower, like all Eldritch Blast damage.
Eldritch Focus: +1/2/3 Spellcraft and Concentration. Rank 3: +1 Will Saves


Tier Two


"Unholy Blast" (name TBD): Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast base damage is now Evil instead of Force.

1 rank 2 AP


Eldritch Chain: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: When toggled on, your basic attack an Eldritch Blast that chains to two other enemies. This scales with 66% spellpower.
Stunning Blast: Activate for 7/5/3 Depravity: Attack one enemy with an Eldritch Blast that stuns your target for 12 seconds on a failed Fortitude saving throw.
Strong Pact: same as lower tier
Wand and Scroll Mastery: +[25/50/75]% to the effectiveness of your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells, and +[1/2/3] to the DCs of your offensive wands.


Tier Three


Faltering Blast: Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast attacks have a 25% chance to slow enemy movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds.

1 rank 2 AP


Efficient Heighten:
Confusion: Activate for 3/2/1 Depravity: Target non-boss monster becomes Confused on a failed Will Saving throw.

Confused monsters attack and are attacked by both monster characters and player characters.


Strong Pact: same as lower tier
CHA/INT


Tier Four


Penetrating Blast: Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast base damage is now Piercing instead of Force. You deal +1d6 Eldritch Blast damage.

1 rank 2 AP


Enervating Shadow: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: This Eldritch Blast auto-attack seeks out enemies, and inflicts a negative level 10% of the time.
Bewitching Blast: Your Eldritch Blast has a 10% chance to Confuse non-boss monsters for 6 seconds.

Confused monsters attack and are attacked by both monster characters and player characters.


Strong Pact: same as lower tier
CHA/INT


Tier Five


Eldritch Power: Your Eldritch Blast deals +1d6 damage.

1 rank 2 AP


Eldritch Ball: Activate for 15/10/5 Depravity: Shoot a projectile at a distant enemy, exploding in an area, dealing Eldritch Blast damage.
Mass Confusion: Activate for 15/10/5 Depravity: A group of non-boss monsters each become Confused on a failed Will saving throw.

Confused monsters attack and are attacked by both monster characters and player characters.


Planar Focus: +1 to all Spell DCs

1 rank 2 AP




As always, some of these are still tentative. Abilities or granted spells may change based on feedback and our ability to create new spells.

Thanks for your feedback!

[Blackheartox]

Isnt stanch a bit to strong?
Temp hit points based on current max?
Taken into account that its lv 6 core this can be easily abused.
To be honest, you shoul go with depravity mechanism and free slas based on depravity counter and unique spells with every warlock tree.
This one impressed me the most and seems okish even.

What is cd of stuning blast? And the dc of confusion?
How will confusion work with those spells?
Also, why command? Can you replace it by something more relevant?
Depravity system is great, just try to make better spells to use it

Do spell critical damage cores stack? I assume yes

[Vargouille]

Isnt stanch a bit to strong?
Temp hit points based on current max?
Taken into account that its lv 6 core this can be easily abused.

Perhaps. It's something that we can alter a % easily enough; should it be 50% of max? How much?


To be honest, you shoul go with depravity mechanism and free slas based on depravity counter and unique spells with every warlock tree.
This one impressed me the most and seems okish even.

What is cd of stuning blast? And the dc of confusion?
How will confusion work with those spells?
Also, why command? Can you replace it by something more relevant?
Depravity system is great, just try to make better spells to use it

Some of that is still in progress. DC of confusion is similar to a spell; it's tentatively a level 5 spell in the background (so 15 + Charisma mod + Enchant bonuses).

We welcome thoughts on balancing or ideas for other spells (both existing and otherwise, though obviously any particular new spell suggestion is less likely to happen out of all possibilities for new and old).

Command felt balanced as a moderately effective yet balanced tier 1 ability. Perhaps there are different opinions or perspectives I'm not understanding from this comment for what would be a better choice here.

[Vargouille]

Do spell critical damage cores stack? I assume yes

Yes, like most Core abilities in trees all the bonuses stack.

[Violith]

They need more DC. even if its plugged into 18-20 cores, warlocks are already atleast 3 behind other casters due to heighten only increasing it to 6th level rahter hten 9th, so they need someway to make up for that

[Maelodic]

Confusion seems quite powerful and I like the idea of it- like a charm but one that doesn't screw over your party.

The eldritch blast enhancements are fantastic- I am a bit worried about spell DCs seeing as you only get a sustained 4 DC (2 from 4 CHA, and 2 from cores)

Compare that to spellsingers who get 5 to all schools they use and 1-3 extra in enhancements.

Otherwise this seems incredibly fun. Faltering blast and mass confusion especially.

[fmalfeas]

I have to reiterate about Crateos. Looking at the tree, the only blast change available at the level range when you encounter him is neg energy. He's a mandatory miniboss in a very commonly run level 5 quest who's completely immune to Light, Force, and, as a construct, negative energy. And is in close quarters you can't get out of, so the Lock either /must/ be grouped and virtually useless in that fight, facetank him without real means of doing so, or rely on a hire to fight him (and hires aren't exactly great for that.)

Sure, it's one mob, but that's even more of a lockout for the class for that quest (and thus Big Top as well) than all the light damage in Running with the Devils is to a PM (who has means to compensate without being relegated to swinging a weapon). Even a Fire Savant can run in Shavarath/Chrono/Devil Assault by using their secondary element. Lock doesn't have that option.

For them, is this intended to be a 'use a fireball wand' situation?

[fmalfeas]

Command felt balanced as a moderately effective yet balanced tier 1 ability. Perhaps there are different opinions or perspectives I'm not understanding from this comment for what would be a better choice here.

If you're going for basically a 1st level CC type effect, the depravity/knowledge you really shouldn't have theme might be better supported with a different spell. Particularly since you're giving Command to the Fiend pact already. I suggest a renamed Faerie Fire. Maybe even call it the same as an old AD&D spell. Invisibility Purge. Or Unveil the Hidden. Particularly since Faerie Fire isn't already a granted/normally available spell.

[gwonbush]

Warlocks also have their secondary damage types from their Pact, which do work on Crateos. If they do it at level 5, they can get 2d4 base + 3d4 from the Scholar tree, which isn't nothing. And if they get to level 7, the limit of Elite BB, they can actually afford the untyped damage from this tree.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Agree that stanch could be very powerful particularly at high levels where HP are pretty big to huge... maybe make it so it's, say, 15% of max HP as temp HP per core enhancement (so when you get it, it's 45%), but with each core enhancement after the one where it's introduced, it reduces max HP by an extra 1% (so 4% at level 20) & it would be in keeping thematically since "i want more power!" "ok, i want more sacrifice".

[Lonnbeimnech]

Perhaps. It's something that we can alter a % easily enough; should it be 50% of max? How much?

Considering... https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/457573-7447-HP-Buffed

How about 1/2 warlock level times heal skill.

[gwonbush]

Considering... https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/457573-7447-HP-Buffed

How about 1/2 warlock level times heal skill.

That's a fighter who gained every hp increase under the sun, including taking Toughness 11 times! A warlock is much more likely to run around closer to 800 hp at endgame, though it will vary depending on past lives. I think 50% max hp is actually rather reasonable, comparing favorably to Blood Tribute from Frenzied Berserker.

[Lonnbeimnech]

That's a fighter who gained every hp increase under the sun, including taking Toughness 11 times! A warlock is much more likely to run around closer to 800 hp at endgame, though it will vary depending on past lives. I think 50% max hp is actually rather reasonable, comparing favorably to Blood Tribute from Frenzied Berserker.

And a 14 fighter 6 warlock con based dorf that took toughness 11 times would be where? 6000hp?

half warlock level times heal skill would be around 800 hp by endgame for a pure warlock that invested in heal skill with heal slotted somewhere.

Another possibility would be double your positive spell power in temp hp.

[gwonbush]

If you look at the breakdown, you see just how many of the buffs aren't sustainable, with some not even possible to be used in combination outside of town. The actual standing HP of someone decked to the limit with that build will be more on the order of 3k, which while still outrageous, actively sacrifices almost everything for pure hp.

However, the real problem with your suggestion is that you are not only giving a skill tax to Warlocks (who only get 2+int modifier skill points anyway), but that skill is cross-class for them.

[Silverleafeon]

Here's our current design for the Tainted Scholar enhancements!

Thanks, reading thru first looki.

Tainted Scholars have learned a wider variety of spells than other Warlocks, and have extensively studied methods for enhancing Eldritch Blasts, such as Eldritch Essences for changing the damage type, or alternate active forms of Eldritch Blast, such as Eldritch Chains. They've got great damage output, especially when they critically hit. They have access to Confusion, which makes enemies indiscriminately attack friends and foe.[/quote]

Nice theme.

BtW, in Pokemon a confused pokemon hurts themselves when they fail a confusion roll, however this version works for me. I assume unlike a charmed foe, Players can attack confused foes. This will make the spell more popular.

https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/taintedscholar.jpg

Thanks for the image, it helps!

Core Abilities



1 AP, class level 1: Tainted Spellcasting:

Activate for 10 Depravity: +25 Universal Spell Power, +2 bonus to all Spell DCs. Lasts 20 seconds. 60 second cooldown.
You gain 1 Depravity each time you damage enemies with Eldritch Blast or spells (except with Positive Energy). You can gain 1 Depravity every 7 seconds. Each additional trained Tainted Scholar Core enhancement reduces this cooldown by 1 second, to a minimum of 2 seconds. You can have up to 10 Depravity, which disappears on rest, death or entering public spaces.
Passive: Each point spent in Tainted Scholar provides +0.75 Universal Spell Power.
Featherfall is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 1.


I like this counter system. Please make sure it persists when entering a new quest zone area. You seem to have a good amount of regeneration on the system which is good. I see a tapering off of things to spend Depravity on as the tree get higher in level. Perhaps review that point, squeeze in another SLA fueled by it? {Edit: Just found Stunning Blast so we are ok as you have 2.} Overall, it looks good.

I love the universal spell power.
Featherfall is nice fluff buff.

5 AP, class level 3: Tainted Lore:

+10% Spell Critical Damage, +1 to Warlock Spell DCs. (Spell Critical damage also applies to criticals with Eldritch Blast.) +10 maximum Depravity.
Web is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 2.


Love the Spell Critical Damage here.
Super nice to see the +1 to DCs will be counting them up as I read thru.
Web is very nice addition, its a bread and butter spell and fits very well with a warlock theme.

10 AP, class level 6: Stanch:

Activate for 7 Depravity: Gains temporary hitpoints equal to your maximum hitpoints. These last for 1 minute. You have -1% maximum hitpoints until you rest, which stacks up to 99 times.
+10 maximum Depravity.
Crushing Despair is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 3.


Crushing Despair is a great spell addition and thematic.

Nice way to spend Depravity and have a limiter on it.
Although some would say Stench is too strong, they are not reading it: last for one minute, costs 7 depravity, and reduces total hit points. {If you want to limit it, try 2% loss of hp.}
Still would like another Depravity fueled SLA possibly.

20 AP, class level 12: Tainted Lore:

+20% Spell Critical Damage, +1 to Warlock Spell DCs.
+10 maximum Depravity.
Death Ward is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 4.


Deathward is another Bread and Butter spell, great additions.
Love the continued spell critical damage (maybe we can see some of thus in the upcoming Artificier, Druid and Favored Soul 3rd trees?
This is the second +1 DCs, nice; looking to offset the difference in heighten spell (3 DC penalty due to max level 6 spell level).

30 AP, class level 18: Blood Component:

Your Eldritch Blast attacks 10% faster.
+10 maximum Depravity.
-25 Maximum HP
Greater Heroism is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 5.


I like the adjustment to Eldritch Blast speed. Would it be possible to offer a feat for another 10%, probably not but its a feat option since you can adjust the animation some (might stretch it too much).

GH can be scrolled, but its nice to have it castable too.

41 AP, class level 20: Heretical Lore:

Your Eldritch Blast deals +1d6 damage. +30% Spell Critical Damage. +4 Charisma
+10 maximum Depravity.
Energy Drain is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 6.




I assume here is another +1 DC disguised as an extra 2 Charisma. Energy Drain is good to prepare for a Finger of Death. Need good spell pen to let it land. Expensive to cast both on each target, but nice option. The bonus to Eldritch Blastsets a standard I guess, now expecting the purchasable past life feat to be +1d6 instead of higher. Either one seems a bit lowish, would rather see +2d6 for capstone and purchasable past life feat, but the 30% spell critical definately offset my concerns there.

Tier One


Planar Power: +30/60/90 Spell Points
Feigned Health: When you cast spells on yourself or allies, you grant temporary hitpoints equal to (33%/66%/100%) of your Charisma.
Command SLA: Activate for 3/2/1 Depravity:
Strong Pact: Bonus Eldritch Blast damage from your Pact is increased by 1d4. This scales with spellpower, like all Eldritch Blast damage.
Eldritch Focus: +1/2/3 Spellcraft and Concentration. Rank 3: +1 Will Saves


Planar Power is nice, typical tier one and very welcome as spell points are nice to have.

I like Feigned Health. Its very low hanging and will provide and easy tree splash for most Warlock builds as the class itself lack self healing. There is a limit to how much self and ally casting a Warlock will do, so looks about right to me. I know some will want it lowered but I say leave it alone. A healing type build can take advantage of thus nicely. Regardless a Warlock will never be a quality tank without a lot of giving up dps power.

I like Strong Pact, very nice as the Pact damage could be increased a bit. This fits the bill well.

Here is the first and only Depravity Fueled SLA. Could we add one more? Oh I just found Stunning Blast, so I am now happy on that point.


Tier Two


Unholy Blast: Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast base damage is now Negative instead of Force.

1 rank 2 AP


Eldritch Chain: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: When toggled on, your basic attack an Eldritch Blast that chains to two other enemies. This scales with 66% spellpower.
Stunning Blast: Activate for 7/5/3 Depravity: Attack one enemy with an Eldritch Blast that stuns your target for 12 seconds on a failed Fortitude saving throw.
Strong Pact: same as lower tier
Wand and Scroll Mastery: +[25/50/75]% to the effectiveness of your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells, and +[1/2/3] to the DCs of your offensive wands.


I assume Eldritch Blast Essence Stances can be toggled on and off? Having two stances in this tree definitely helps any concerns about force immune foes. Obviously there are times that negative energy is very bad, so it needs to be a toggle.

Love the Chain effect, nice to have a Shape Stance; it obviously is a toggle too.

More Strong Pact is very good, keep on with that.
Love the Wand and Scroll Masterly being low hanging and combining wand DCs together.
Thank you for the Epic Wand of Wonder.
We could use a few more Epic Wands as time goes by.


Tier Three


Faltering Blast: Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast attacks have a 25% chance to slow enemy movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds.

1 rank 2 AP


Efficient Heighten:
Confusion: Target non-boss monster becomes Confused on a failed Will Saving throw.

Confused monsters attack and are attacked by both monster characters and player characters.


Strong Pact: same as lower tier
CHA/INT


Slow for another Essence Stance, interesting. I like it.

Great to have Heighten Meta reduction as this will be the biggest Metamagic turned on for spells that are not SLAs.

Confused about Confusion -- is this an SLA?
Must be.
If so, I like that as you could heighten/quicken it for free.
Suggest reasonable cooldown -- 6~10 seconds?
Hopefully it will cost zero sp?


Tier Four


Penetrating Blast: Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast base damage is now untyped instead of Force. You deal +1d6 Eldritch Blast damage.

1 rank 2 AP


Enervating Shadow: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: This Eldritch Blast auto-attack seeks out enemies, and inflicts a negative level 10% of the time.
Bewitching Blast: Your Eldritch Blast has a 10% chance to Confuse non-boss monsters for 6 seconds.

Confused monsters attack and are attacked by both monster characters and player characters.


Strong Pact: same as lower tier
CHA/INT


The long awaited Bane Damage Essence stance. Thank you. I assume the +1d6 bonus is passive.

I am confused by Enervating Shadows. If I read it right, this is similiar to the Fvs shoulder archon?
Or do all auto attack Eldritch Blasts fire while target is faced and in range.
Either way the neg level will help for DC casting.


Tier Five


Eldritch Power: Your Eldritch Blast deals +1d6 damage.

1 rank 2 AP


Eldritch Ball: Shoot a projectile at a distant enemy, exploding in an area, dealing Eldritch Blast damage.
Mass Confusion: A group of non-boss monsters each become Confused on a failed Will saving throw.

Confused monsters attack and are attacked by both monster characters and player characters.


Planar Focus: +1 to all Spell DCs

1 rank 2 AP



Nice another +1d6 eldritch damage.

Eldritch Ball -- is this free of spell point cost, like Eldritch Blast is?
I assume it has its own cooldown timer.

I will assume Mass Confusion is another SLA?
Must be.
If so, I like that as you could heighten/quicken it for free.
Suggest reasonable cooldown -- 6~10 seconds?
Hopefully it will cost zero sp?

And there is our technically 4th DC increase.
Since we lose 3 DC due to heighten only going to level 6, and we expect one from tier 5,
this make us even. Not over or under, but even. Wizards will still be the masters of their school,
but Warlocks will be close enough to function.


As always, some of these are still tentative. Abilities or granted spells may change based on feedback and our ability to create new spells.

Thank you for listening to us and the Player's Council.
It great to see this class appear.
Its been awhile since Druids came out.

Thanks for your feedback!

I would like to see:

Past life Purchasable:
+1d4 Eldritch Pact Damage
+1d6 Eldritch Blast Damage
(or some other variation)

Passive Past life
+3 MMR (stacks 3x)

Epic Eldritch Blast
+2d6 Eldritch Damage

Epic Eldritch Pact
+2d4 Eldritch Pact Damage

Epic Combat Casting
Your spells cannot be interrupted
Prerequisite: Mobile Spellcasting


Keep up the good work, I am proud of you!

[Rautis]

That's a fighter who gained every hp increase under the sun, including taking Toughness 11 times! A warlock is much more likely to run around closer to 800 hp at endgame, though it will vary depending on past lives. I think 50% max hp is actually rather reasonable, comparing favorably to Blood Tribute from Frenzied Berserker.

Yes, if the warlock is pure. But what hp could a 6 Warlock 14 Fighter or Paladin get? I'm not sure if the ability is strong enough to be worth the multiclass but considering that it's temp hp instead of healing I can see some uses for it. Maybe it should behave a bit like sorcerer/fvs double sp from items and temp hp granted is equal to (warlock levels/number of heroic levels)*Maximum hitpoints.

[Ambitious]

Yes, like most Core abilities in trees all the bonuses stack.

So you're saying that they have a 60% spell crit chance without any items equipped?




2. Enervating Shadow: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: This Eldritch Blast auto-attack seeks out enemies, and inflicts a negative level 10% of the time.

Is this some kind of 'homing' attack, that unlike the normal eldritch blast, can't miss the target?

[Maelodic]

So you're saying that they have a 60% spell crit chance without any items equipped?


What is says there is Spell Critical Damage, not spell critical chance. Meaning all your spell crits are going to hit like trucks. Be sure to twist in Energy Burst! =P

[Ambitious]

I really like what I see here, except one thing. I was hoping for more AOE shapes. The other two trees get AOE aura and cone, which can effect a whole lot of mobs (probably both at 100% scaling). This tree gets the chain shape, that can arc only to 2 other mobs at 66% scaling. Doesn't look right to me.

[legendkilleroll]

So you're saying that they have a 60% spell crit chance without any items equipped?

Not crit chance, Critical damage.

[Seikojin]

Isnt stanch a bit to strong?
Temp hit points based on current max?
Taken into account that its lv 6 core this can be easily abused.
To be honest, you shoul go with depravity mechanism and free slas based on depravity counter and unique spells with every warlock tree.
This one impressed me the most and seems okish even.

What is cd of stuning blast? And the dc of confusion?
How will confusion work with those spells?
Also, why command? Can you replace it by something more relevant?
Depravity system is great, just try to make better spells to use it

Do spell critical damage cores stack? I assume yes

Stanch can be strong if you give yourself 10000 help hp, then use it. :D I do think it should be max hp before buffs. Or give 100 hp per class level.


The speed bonus to blast, does this affect melee or ranged attack speed, or just blast triggers?

[Vargouille]

Here is the first and only Depravity Fueled SLA. Could we add one more? Oh I just found Stunning Blast, so I am now happy on that point.

There is some discussion about the costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, and Eldritch Ball (name subject to possible revision.) These could cost Depravity or possibly SP.



I assume Eldritch Blast Essence Stances can be toggled on and off?

You can have one Eldritch Essence toggled on at a time, yes.



Confused about Confusion -- is this an SLA?

This is essentially an SLA, yes.


I am confused by Enervating Shadows. If I read it right, this is similiar to the Fvs shoulder archon?

To clarify: The Eldritch Blast Shapes (which include Eldritch Chain, Enervating Shadows, and the Cone in the yet-to-be-seen Soul Eater). Toggling a Shape on means that's your basic attack, so using this means you aren't using the normal Eldritch Blast or the Chain, etc. (Unlike the Eldritch Essences, which are separate and affect whatever Eldritch Shape you are using.)


So you're saying that they have a 60% spell crit chance without any items equipped?
As others have noted, this is damage, not chance.


Is this some kind of 'homing' attack, that unlike the normal eldritch blast, can't miss the target?
Essentially, yes.


Stanch can be strong if you give yourself 10000 help hp, then use it. :D I do think it should be max hp before buffs. Or give 100 hp per class level.

There's a variety of other ways to balance this, yes. All subject to review, playtest, and your feedback!


The speed bonus to blast, does this affect melee or ranged attack speed, or just blast triggers?

This affects the speed of attack while using Eldritch Blast, which is its own kind of attack type. This isn't really melee nor ranged attack speed, it's "Eldritch Blast" speed. (It doesn't affect how fast projectiles move, if that's helps.)

[HastyPudding]

YAY! I love this tree! This will most likely be the first type of warlock I make.

Comments, suggestions, and questions:
---Core Abilities---
- Depravity seems like a good idea, as it limits how much you can do, but gives you an additional resource other than spell points, both differentiating and being the same as PnP warlocks.

- Web, crushing despair, death ward, and energy drain all fit perfectly with what a warlock is about. Greater Heroism seems out of place, to me, however. Perhaps changing it to symbol of fear, symbol of persuasion, true seeing, or shadow walk would make it more thematic.

- Stanch needs to be nerfed before you even continue with anything else. It's too low in the cores and can be severely abused and it gives way too much HP for the penalty. I can see it as an 'oh sh*t' button, though. My suggestion: put this in the 12, 18, or 20 cores (or even in the tier 5), take away the penalty and make it last only 20 seconds, but give it a 3 minute cooldown. I'm all for giving warlock some false life/HP theft abilities, but this is pushing it.

- I'm to understand the spell critical damage stacks? Meaning spell/blast critical hits deal an additional 60% damage on top of what they already deal (so +160% damage)? That seems a bit excessive. I'd like to see warlock have some damage, but not at the cost of stepping on the sorcerer's toes; a warlock should be sustained damage compared to the burst damage of sorcerers.

---Tier 1---
- Feigned Health seems rather nice. No more lying about how much of your caster stat you have. With a nerfed/balanced Stanch clicky, this won't seem so overpowered.

- Command SLA...meh. This could be replaced with something else, but it's okay where it is. The tree seems very enchantment-heavy, though.

- Add +2 universal spellpower to each of the Strong Pact tiers. 2 AP for only 1d4 extra damage per tier is a bit expensive. That will give some eldritch blast damage and +10 total universal spellpower.

---Tier 2---
- Just being nitpicky, but rename Unholy Blast to Utterdark Blast.

- We're allowed to have one blast shape and one blast essence active at one time, like in PnP? Will eldritch essences be able to be used with, say, souleater's cone blast or enlightened spirit's aura blast?

- How is the stunning blast DC to be calculated?

---Tier 3---
- Efficient Heighten would be useful to have. Perhaps Efficient Quicken, as well, somewhere in the tree.

- Faltering Blast might as well be a fluff enhancement, because the tier 4 penetrating blast is going to be used 10 out of 10 times on anyone serious about blast damage.

- This would be a good tier to add +3 spell penetration for warlock spells.

---Tier 4---
- Penetrating Blast and Enervating Shadow will be completely awesome.

- Is Bewitching Blast a straight up proc or a shape/essence?

---Tier 5---
- Nothing to say, here, looks good. Perhaps you can change Planar Focus to multi-selector, giving +1 to all DC's or +2 to a select type of DC's (necromancy, enchantment, etc). This would help generalists and specialists pick what they wish to do.

[J2345678]

Enervating Shadow...Is this some kind of 'homing' attack, that unlike the normal eldritch blast, can't miss the target?


(T4) Enervating Shadow:
Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: This Eldritch Blast auto-attack seeks out enemies, and inflicts a negative level 10% of the time.


...it's basically going to home in more or less like Magic Missile.



...like playing an archer, except instead of arrows or bolts you are hurling blasts.



It's similar in most ways to arrows.

This is basically Precise Shot for Eldritch Blast. ;)

[Gralhota]

I liked this eldritch (warlock), with the trees offered a range of possibilities is considerable.

Why eldritch Knight (wizard) is so weak , in fact comparing the two eldritchs the EK sucks.

[Vargouille]

- I'm to understand the spell critical damage stacks? Meaning spell/blast critical hits deal an additional 60% damage on top of what they already deal (so +160% damage)? That seems a bit excessive. I'd like to see warlock have some damage, but not at the cost of stepping on the sorcerer's toes; a warlock should be sustained damage compared to the burst damage of sorcerers.

This might need to be adjusted based on testing. You get half of this critical damage from the capstone, which we do want to be attractive. Warlocks are just as likely to want to splash a couple monk or rogue levels as other light armor users, so as we are often reminded, it's competing with Evasion (and maybe two monk feats, etc.)


- Feigned Health seems rather nice. No more lying about how much of your caster stat you have.
Congratulations, you are the first player to mention this, if I'm recalling correctly.



- Add +2 universal spellpower to each of the Strong Pact tiers. 2 AP for only 1d4 extra damage per tier is a bit expensive. That will give some eldritch blast damage and +10 total universal spellpower.
We'll think about it, but Strong Pact corresponds to things like +1 weapon damage in some other trees. 1d4 is pretty good, and scales with spellpower. (It doesn't scale with melee/ranged critical hits, of course, which are probably still going to be bigger than spell criticals.)



- Just being nitpicky, but rename Unholy Blast to Utterdark Blast.
OK.


- We're allowed to have one blast shape and one blast essence active at one time, like in PnP? Will eldritch essences be able to be used with, say, souleater's cone blast or enlightened spirit's aura blast?
Yes. Yes.

There's a very few things that won't interact with the Aura, which is the weirdest of them all, such as the speed bonus in Blood Component -- Enlightened Spirit Cores already increase the speed of the aura. (That might be the only thing. TBD!)


How is the stunning blast DC to be calculated?

Tentatively something like ~11 + Charisma Mod + Enchantment bonuses. If we have time we may promote to full SLA-ness so it can be affected by Heighten (Quicken, etc.)


- Is Bewitching Blast a straight up proc or a shape/essence?
Tentatively it's not an Essence, so you can use with other Essences).

[DemonMage]

This affects the speed of attack while using Eldritch Blast, which is its own kind of attack type. This isn't really melee nor ranged attack speed, it's "Eldritch Blast" speed. (It doesn't affect how fast projectiles move, if that's helps.)

So Haste and Speed items aren't going to help Blast then?

I'd also really like to see some sort of burst ability like Haste(/Crit Chance?) Boost/Many Shot/Endless Fusilade. It's super fun to hit a button and be doing a ton of extra shots or damage for a short time.

[Blackheartox]

After rereading again il say that warlocks wont have issues with dcs.
I am comparing it to my sorc life as human where i pushed toward maximimum char and went enchant focus and played around with necro focus.

Inability to heighten will put warlock behind sorc by 3 dc, but since cores give 2 dc and capstone is 4 charisma instead of 2 that will even it out for necro/enchant schools.
With addition of depravity clickie they will gain 2 dc bursted every 60 seconds that make them superior to sorc by 2 dc. (3 if t 5 is taken here)
As sorc player i managed when focused on enchant/necro to land all spells reliably, so warlock imo should be ok dc wise esp with synergy that the light damage blast has with exalted.
You lose 1 dc from t5 from scholar but pick the light damage energy burst.


Only issue i see is that i am not really checking any real spell critical chance increases in most warlock trees.
What will be spell element focus (if any) for warlocks?

And 2nd question, will eldritch blasts be able to proc empyrian magic when we temper with them to do light damage?

[Silverleafeon]

Perhaps. It's something that we can alter a % easily enough; should it be 50% of max? How much?

I would change it to this:

Activate for 1 Depravity: Gains temporary hitpoints equal to 25% your maximum hitpoints. These last for 1 minute. You have -1% maximum hitpoints until you rest, which stacks up to 99 times.

This would allow other uses of Depravity such as for:
Confusion 1 Depravity Cooldown 8 seconds
Mass Confusion 2 Depravity Cooldown 10 seconds
Eldritch Ball 3 Depravity Cooldown 10 seconds




30 AP, class level 18: Blood Component:

Your Eldritch Blast attacks 10% faster.
+10 maximum Depravity.
-25 Maximum HP
Greater Heroism is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 5.

Also concerning Greater Heroism, let us change that to:

Creeping Doom (Druid 7) is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 5.

Creeping Doom Conjuration Summons a cloud of voracious insects and unleashes them on your enemies. The insect cloud will slowly home on the target, and when it strikes insects will burst outward, affecting every enemy within the area of effect. Enemies hit by the insects take 2 to 20 poison damage, plus 1 to 10 per 3 caster levels, every 2 seconds for 16 seconds. A successful reflex save halves the damage.
Its very Warlock Invocation like several of their invocations are similar.
I know its damage, but honestly its rarely used by Druids.

[HatsuharuZ]

I like most of what I see. Good job! There are a few issues that worry me though:

1) Warlocks gain .75 spellpower per point spent in the tree. I'm worried that this won't be enough since Warlocks are a charisma-based class (as opposed to INT) and Eldritch Blast and it's derivatives may not get full benefit from spellpower.

2) I feel that Enervating Shadow's chance of dealing a negative level should increase somehow, or that the chance of a neg level should scale with Warlock level. One negative level does not do well in epics when Epic Ward is active.

[Angelic-council]

After rereading again il say that warlocks wont have issues with dcs.
I am comparing it to my sorc life as human where i pushed toward maximimum char and went enchant focus and played around with necro focus.

Inability to heighten will put warlock behind sorc by 3 dc, but since cores give 2 dc and capstone is 4 charisma instead of 2 that will even it out for necro/enchant schools.
With addition of depravity clickie they will gain 2 dc bursted every 60 seconds that make them superior to sorc by 2 dc. (3 if t 5 is taken here)
As sorc player i managed when focused on enchant/necro to land all spells reliably, so warlock imo should be ok dc wise esp with synergy that the light damage blast has with exalted.
You lose 1 dc from t5 from scholar but pick the light damage energy burst.


Only issue i see is that i am not really checking any real spell critical chance increases in most warlock trees.
What will be spell element focus (if any) for warlocks?

And 2nd question, will eldritch blasts be able to proc empyrian magic when we temper with them to do light damage?

Yes, exactly.

And about the spell critical chance. Pure warlocks would have high critical damage, but 8% lower critical chance. Is this the price they going to pay? If we think about it, warlocks don't really have any damaging spells, but eldritch and SLAs. I can see the balace there, but I'm not too sure.

[Blackheartox]

I know its damage, but honestly its rarely used by Druids.

And what makes you think it will be used from warlocks?
There is a reason its not used by druids

[Artagon]

And what makes you think it will be used from warlocks?
There is a reason its not used by druids
Just because it isn't used much doesn't mean it shouldn't be included for thematic reasons,

[Delacroix21]

Varg, two questions=

1. I dont see any +spell crit chance like all the other caster trees, can 2% force spell crit per tier be added?


2. Will eldritch blast always go off force spell crit? Or will you have to equip a negative energy lore item when using unholy blast etc.?

[Angelic-council]

As a designer myself, I have a quick question.

Tainted scholar uses forbidden knowledge, he is willing to pay his life to gain the power. Why there is nothing like: You lose 25 - 50 maximum HP until the effect ends: For the next 20 seconds, you gain 20 - 30% Attack boost with eldritch blast etc..

I think as a tainted scholar, those who learn forbidden knowledge - there should be more ways to "sacrifice and gain" abilities.

[Blackheartox]

Just because it isn't used much doesn't mean it shouldn't be included for thematic reasons,

Honestly no disrespect here, but why would you want a thematical spell that has no uses in the game.
Example poison damage is being resisted by most enemies, or in the worst case they are straight out immune to it.

Now if you added some kind spell that does the same but is bane damage and scaled properly, then ok sure.
But this way its just flavor and im pretty sure that at least i want warlock to be a actual playable class

[Vargouille]

1. I dont see any +spell crit chance like all the other caster trees, can 2% force spell crit per tier be added?

It's something we might add during balancing.


Will eldritch blast always go off force spell crit? Or will you have to equip a negative energy lore item when using unholy blast etc.?

Our expectation is that each damage type will go off the appropriate statistics.


As a designer myself, I have a quick question.

Tainted scholar uses forbidden knowledge, he is willing to pay his life to gain the power. Why there is nothing like: You lose 25 - 50 maximum HP until the effect ends: For the next 20 seconds, you gain 20 - 30% Attack boost with eldritch blast etc..

I think as a tainted scholar, those who learn forbidden knowledge - there should be more ways to "sacrifice and gain" abilities.

There are a couple of places where hit points are affected. We've also considered having some things cost hitpoints to activate, though right now we're leaning away from that for Depravity, SP, cooldowns, or weirder stuff.

All that said, "sacrifice" abilities can be hard to make. Most players have an aversion to obvious "downsides", and an appropriately balanced ability that's otherwise similar but has no downside is generally much, much more well received, so if it could go either way we'll tend to lean towards "no downside". (There are always other considerations, of course, and flavor in this tree can be one of them.)

There's a very "game designer" answer for you!

[HatsuharuZ]

There are a couple of places where hit points are affected. We've also considered having some things cost hitpoints to activate, though right now we're leaning away from that for Depravity, SP, cooldowns, or weirder stuff.

All that said, "sacrifice" abilities can be hard to make. Most players have an aversion to obvious "downsides", and an appropriately balanced ability that's otherwise similar but has no downside is generally much, much more well received, so if it could go either way we'll tend to lean towards "no downside". (There are always other considerations, of course, and flavor in this tree can be one of them.)

There's a very "game designer" answer for you!

I'd like to see a temporary spellpower boost (similar to an action boost) that costs a small amount of HP. However, that's in part because I like the Frenzied Berserker cores that give me extra strength and damage in return for HP. :D

[HastyPudding]

Varg, two questions=

1. I dont see any +spell crit chance like all the other caster trees, can 2% force spell crit per tier be added?


2. Will eldritch blast always go off force spell crit? Or will you have to equip a negative energy lore item when using unholy blast etc.?

Adding 1% crit chance to all damage types (fire, cold, electricity, acid, sonic, light, negative) could be added to the 1d4 'Strong Pact' enhancements. That would balance out the 2 AP cost and also be balanced in a sense as to not add a ton of critical chance (given they have high critical damage, already). +5% for all spells to crit and 5d4 pact damage, that seems reasonable.

[gwonbush]

Eldritch Power could also use a bit of a bump, since this T5 enhancement is less impressive than the T4 one immediately below it. For the same price, Penetrating Blast makes your Eldritch Blast untyped in addition to adding 1d6 base damage, while the T5 Eldritch Power just gives 1d6 base damage.

[Silverleafeon]

Honestly no disrespect here, but why would you want a thematical spell that has no uses in the game.
Example poison damage is being resisted by most enemies, or in the worst case they are straight out immune to it.

Now if you added some kind spell that does the same but is bane damage and scaled properly, then ok sure.
But this way its just flavor and im pretty sure that at least i want warlock to be a actual playable class

I'm flexible.

What about just placing Creeping Doom on the Warlock Spell book list instead?
Thematic and no one has to choose it, and if they actually upgrade the spell its already there?


How about Acid Fog (nice for raiding) in place of GH or do people prefer to just have GH?

Looking for other spells, perhaps Cloudkill?


This starts getting into the Pact Known Spells pretty quick like, and a few of them imho need revising...

[WanderingGrump]

Why is the Heighten Metamagic reduction included here at all really. Consider that Warlock is restricted to having just level 6 spells that seems to be quite the trap when on the few spells that you want it you will get extremely minimal DC raises. I understand the desire for the CC ability of the Command SLA but even on a Pure FvS a heightened Command is poorly suited for use after level 15ish and utterly useless in epics.

Or is there something I am not seeing here?

[Artagon]

Honestly no disrespect here, but why would you want a thematical spell that has no uses in the game.
Example poison damage is being resisted by most enemies, or in the worst case they are straight out immune to it.

Now if you added some kind spell that does the same but is bane damage and scaled properly, then ok sure.
But this way its just flavor and im pretty sure that at least i want warlock to be a actual playable class

My answer was in general terms. I do not see it as being something I would want every warlock in X pact/enhancement line to get in place of a more favorable ability. It should, however, be an option in the spell book for those thematic reasons, not just because it is super good/bad. If all we did was give a class all the best spells for their spell list it would be in no way balanced. I won't disagree that it could use a little tweaking to make it useful.

[Silverleafeon]

Why is the Heighten Metamagic reduction included here at all really. Consider that Warlock is restricted to having just level 6 spells that seems to be quite the trap when on the few spells that you want it you will get extremely minimal DC raises. I understand the desire for the CC ability of the Command SLA but even on a Pure FvS a heightened Command is poorly suited for use after level 15ish and utterly useless in epics.

Or is there something I am not seeing here?

Most of their spell point usage for metamagics will be for heightened.
Their DCs are at the low edge of normal casting.
They will need every little bit of DC they can grab.

Empower and Maximize will likely be applied to SLAs, EB, etc w/o the need for reductions.

Since its level 1 thru 6 notice spell levels are being dropped (which lowers their DCs) for example, Disco Ball from the Fey Pact is a level 5 spell, not level 7.

[slarden]

I see some nice low-hanging fruit to go with enlightened spirit.

I would probably take the first 4 cores and into the 4th tier with enlightened spirit as my main tree. I don't see anything in the 5th tier or final 2 cores that make tainted scholar more compelling than enlightened spirit - even on a pure caster build.

[Maelodic]

I see some nice low-hanging fruit to go with enlightened spirit.

I would probably take the first 4 cores and into the 4th tier with enlightened spirit as my main tree. I don't see anything in the 5th tier or final 2 cores that make tainted scholar more compelling than enlightened spirit - even on a pure caster build.

I think Tainted Scholar is more or less supposed to be the eldritch blast caster more than just the warlock caster. I'm assuming Soul Eater will be more castery/supporty.

[Silverleafeon]

I see some nice low-hanging fruit to go with enlightened spirit.

I would probably take the first 4 cores and into the 4th tier with enlightened spirit as my main tree. I don't see anything in the 5th tier or final 2 cores that make tainted scholar more compelling than enlightened spirit - even on a pure caster build.
Improving upper levels would involve the spells granted?
What about double dipping?

Find the best spells on this list and add them to 18 and capstone?

After all there might be more than 2 great spells on this list?

Level 5
Circle of Death
Control Undead
Create Undead
Finger of Death
Globe of Invulnerability
Greater Teleport
Hold Person, Mass
Invisibility, Mass
Mind Fog
Protection from Elements, Mass
Shadow Walk
Summon Monster VIII
Symbol of Stunning
Tenser's Transformation
Undeath to Death
Waves of Exhaustion


Level 6
Mass Charm Monster
Dominate Monster
Hold Monster, Mass
Mordenkainen's Disjunction
Power Word: Stun
Summon Monster IX
Symbol of Death
Trap the Soul
Wail of the Banshee

[fmalfeas]

I don't know what the cooldown on it is, but I have to point out for people that Eldritch Ball isn't set as a blast shape, but rather, a clickie. So during that moment between Eldritch Chains firing off, you can hit the button, and fireball the targets too.

[Angelic-council]

There are a couple of places where hit points are affected. We've also considered having some things cost hitpoints to activate, though right now we're leaning away from that for Depravity, SP, cooldowns, or weirder stuff.

All that said, "sacrifice" abilities can be hard to make. Most players have an aversion to obvious "downsides", and an appropriately balanced ability that's otherwise similar but has no downside is generally much, much more well received, so if it could go either way we'll tend to lean towards "no downside". (There are always other considerations, of course, and flavor in this tree can be one of them.)

There's a very "game designer" answer for you!

I see, very cool Varg, thanks for the reply.

I really like the idea of Depravity, and how everything are implanted in this tree. I understand that Tainted scholar has its own flavor and this is not the only tree that warlocks get, it's all about the combination and a balance. I see some of the things are directly affect HP and it's really cool. But when I read the description from the handbook: No secret is barred from the tainted scholar's grasp, and if such forbidden knowledge comes at the cost of his soul, he's willing to pay that price. I just thought, what is really so forbidden about this tree. Tier five allows you to choose: + 1d6 damage boost, an AoE eldritch blast, Mass confusion and +1 DC to all spells. You don't really get any secretively powerful SLAs at lv18 - lv20 core. If there is such a thing as forbidden knowledge, I was hoping it would be something similar to Eldritch Tempest from wizard enchantment tree: Eldritch knight tier five. But except, it's a very wide AoE attack that will stun any monsters including red names with no save for 1 - 2 seconds at the cost of your depravity and very long CD. I believe that kind of SLA really fits this tree, but I could be wrong - just an idea. 1d6 (with a cap) damage that scales with spell power and wide AoE stun.

This is just my idea, but I really like this tree so far. And I think you guys did a good job, keep it up!

[fmalfeas]

The whole 'forbidden knowledge' thing...yeah, I could see this tree being eligible for some interesting tricks. Stuff that normally only mobs get to do to us. Like a top-tier multiselector that gives you a choice of a list of nasty mob-only abilities.

Maybe even going so far as, instead of energy drain in the 20 core, offer up a choice of things between like the Devourer of Dreams big, unresistable stun, Lailat's triple-cometfall, a Beholder's antimagic gaze, or even the ability to temporarily give yourself a Lich's Mantle...or even just permanently have the Mantle. Truly forbidden knowledge. The kind of thing nobody else could (or in some cases, would) learn. Could even make choices in there that are pact-specific. Like maybe you can only get the Antimagic gaze or Bees of Xoriat if you have the Old Ones pact. While Fiendish could give you the ability to use Lailat's comets, or a Balor's aura of flames (a somewhat weaker, but constant version of Body of Sun). Fey could give you...um...well, that can get just as strange as Old Ones, and we don't have many fey in game to steal from right now.

[janave]

I know it will have to be "sold". (is it really the goal to trivialize/outperform the more focused caster classes?)

Currently this design is too powerful really. ( only comparing to actual caster classes, clearly a barb will do better raw dps, which is enough to get thru most quests)

1) 1 AP, class level 1: Tainted Spellcasting:

The most loaded 1APs i ever seen? The scaling per cores is a neat idea tho:

2) +60% spell crit damage? That is seriously overkill :P
id change it to 1/2/2% spell crit, +20% crit damage in the capstone only!.

3) +4 cha in capstone? Again, none of the primary caster classes have this much casting stat given away.
+2 is plenty enough.

4) The stun length is too much really, unless its a non helpless variant of the stun. Again granted too cheap for a ranged attack, where other classes have to work much harder to get reliable stuns.

Id change it to: 6seconds, only works in Point Blank range. It should be single target regardless of EB shape.

5) Penetrating Blast: Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast base damage is now untyped instead of Force. You deal +1d6 Eldritch Blast damage.

I would move this to T5 -> it basically converts your DPS into irresistible. Incredibly huge benefit.

6)
Enervating Shadow: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: This Eldritch Blast auto-attack seeks out enemies, and inflicts a negative level 10% of the time.

Bewitching Blast: Your Eldritch Blast has a 10% chance to Confuse non-boss monsters for 6 seconds.

Confused monsters attack and are attacked by both monster characters and player characters.

If those works with aoe shapes, the rate is way too much. Id drop that to 6-7% if they can hit multiple targets.

7) Low cores are too loaded with spell DCs.
Id either change them to spell pen, or just offer them as AP buyouts in T3 planar focus. With the Requirement to have 5/10/15 levels in Warlock.

Otherwise looks good, interesting, has a nice flavor feel. As per 1st post, the power is quite overdone. EB is possibly the strongest main attack yet in DDO, everything else can be a support ability, or multiclass flavor.

[Angelic-council]

1) 1 AP, class level 1: Tainted Spellcasting:

The most loaded 1APs i ever seen? The scaling per cores is a neat idea tho:
Yes, +25 spell power and +2 DC is pretty big, but as a dc caster, you want to go pure. It has 1 minute CD.


2) +60% spell crit damage? That is seriously overkill :P
id change it to 1/2/2% spell crit, +20% crit damage in the capstone only!.
This requires testing, but come on. Warlocks are not traditional casters, they have no offensive spells. Except eldritch blast and some SLAs. I'm sure there might be adjustments, but 20% is way too low for a warlock.



3) +4 cha in capstone? Again, none of the primary caster classes have this much casting stat given away.
+2 is plenty enough.
It's a capstone. Again, warlocks are not traditional casters. Their spells cap at lv6, same as a bard. They shouldn't lack in DC.


5) Penetrating Blast: Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast base damage is now untyped instead of Force. You deal +1d6 Eldritch Blast damage.

I would move this to T5 -> it basically converts your DPS into irresistible. Incredibly huge benefit.
Yeah, kinda true. But, does it affect every single blasts? I mean, how about pack bonus and everything. This needs some testing.


6)
Enervating Shadow: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: This Eldritch Blast auto-attack seeks out enemies, and inflicts a negative level 10% of the time.

Bewitching Blast: Your Eldritch Blast has a 10% chance to Confuse non-boss monsters for 6 seconds.

Confused monsters attack and are attacked by both monster characters and player characters.

If those works with aoe shapes, the rate is way too much. Id drop that to 6-7% if they can hit multiple targets.

This needs testing as well, I don't know how fast we can really cast eldritch blast, definitely not as fast as magic missiles.


7) Low cores are too loaded with spell DCs.
Id either change them to spell pen, or just offer them as AP buyouts in T3 planar focus. With the Requirement to have 5/10/15 levels in Warlock.
If you look closely, it says: +1 DC to warlock spells. And warlocks need it very badly..

[Ausdoerrt]

The Blast stances here and the Auras in Enlightened - are they mutually exclusive between themselves and with one another?

[rehakp]

Interesting tree. Seems like the main tree for pure 20lvl locks. Centered around Eldritch Blast and giving some nice casting perks.
But bacause we still dont know how exaclty EB will work on life its little soon to comment on how (in)effective it will be life.
But i will definately stay tuned ;)

[cdbd3rd]

[sidestep topic]


I'm not caster enough to help dig into the guts of all that kinda stuff - but I do have to say that the Eldritch Ball is gonna be a blast of a party with all that Depravity going on.

...:D

http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac256/sunteaflower/Spongebob/BubbleDance.gif




...and completely off topic:
Probably too late to prod the art department, but something like this as a "standing idle" animation would be sweet. :cool:



http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/buffy/images/1/19/Rack_magical_energy.gif/revision/latest?cb=20140311070352



[end topic sidestep]

[BananaHat]

Obviously playtesting will reveal all, but right now I don't see this tree as really overtaking enlightened spirit in the realm of best eldritch blast.

TS: +3d6 blast, +4d4 pact dmg (has a save), +10% firing rate, bigger crits and more spellpower (mostly driven by gear)
ES: +6d6 light dmg to EB

Those bonuses seem fairly similar considering the base blast is 9d6 and base pact damage is 10d4 with the exception of the attack speed. Now take the spell power hit for the chain shape... It seems like the DPS might be similar depending on attack speed of the base blast. More hits for less damage in TS, but the ES gets weapon attacks too, I guess that is their bonus for being close up.

*shrugs*

Again, playtesting will help. I guess I just expected more EB damage from the description of TS. Maybe the core ability at 20 could change the d6's to d8's or something. We can't throw together certain more-stay-at-range-and-blast test builds without Soul Eater, which I'm looking forward to seeing.

EDIT: very very quick numbers I tossed together has a TS standard EB doing 20-25% more damage compared to the aura's damage. Chain will bring it down obviously, but the real difference will be in base activation speed. How does the base EB compare to 2 seconds for the aura?

[Vargouille]

I don't know what the cooldown on it is, but I have to point out for people that Eldritch Ball isn't set as a blast shape, but rather, a clickie. So during that moment between Eldritch Chains firing off, you can hit the button, and fireball the targets too.

This is correct. Some of the wording is very precise and potentially confusing, which is why the diagram also has some colors in it.

Eldritch Essences: Unholy Blast, Faltering Blast, Penetrating Blast: You can turn one on at a time. They change the way other Eldritch Blasts work (including the single target one you get at first Warlock level, or Eldritch Chain, or Eldritch Cone, or Enervating Shadow, as well as the Aura in Enlightened spirit.)

Eldritch Blast Shapes: Basic single-target, Chain, Cone, Enervating Shadow. These are toggles that make your basic attack 'cast' Eldritch Blast. These are affected by things that say, "When you Eldritch Blast", or variations thereof (we probably need to lock down text templates for these but might not be there yet). This includes the Eldritch Essences but also other things that we choose not to make Eldritch Essences (it's not good to have too many since you can only turn on one at a time).

*Aura in Enlightened Spirit: This is similar to Eldritch Blast Shapes but is a bit different. It doesn't replace your auto-attack. There's also a few things that won't work directly with it (such as increased attack speed in Tainted Scholar). However, most of the "on-hit" effects of Eldritch Blast will work with this.

Activated Eldritch Blast: These are activated abilities that are not Shapes. These will usually function like SLAs, and deal damage based on your Eldritch Blast dice (both base and Pact), and trigger "on-hit" effects that care about Eldritch Blast (or spells!). This includes things like Eldritch Ball, Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast. Whether you are auto-attacking with Eldritch Blast or not doesn't matter for these abilities, similar to how you can just cast spells between doing other things.

[davmuzl]

All that said, "sacrifice" abilities can be hard to make. Most players have an aversion to obvious "downsides", and an appropriately balanced ability that's otherwise similar but has no downside is generally much, much more well received, so if it could go either way we'll tend to lean towards "no downside". (There are always other considerations, of course, and flavor in this tree can be one of them.)

Honestly I think it shouldn't discourage you from adding flavor or interesting mechanics to the game, just because a few players complain on the forum about how downsides of some ability or item will make it unplayable. While it might be true that the majority of players don't like this kind of ability, because all they see is the fact that the ability HAS a downside, there is also a lot of players who will look at the full picture and if the ability is worth being used with the downside they will use it. There are also a lot of players who will start using this kind of ability, when they see "good" players use it. The damage on Frenzy and Deathfrenzy were not actually that significant (compared to how much damage the enemies did) once you had healing, especially in the higher levels.
This is also where having competition in the game helps a lot, because simply looking at what builds do well give a very objective look at what is op and what is not so good.
It might also be good to give the player a choice. Make them pick between one ability without downsides and a better ability with downsides. That way people have less to complain about.

Talking about sacrificing stuff... I don't like the kind of ability that puts a debuff on the PC until he rests. It very much discourages the player from actually using it. This of course very subjective, but I simply like it when my Characters don't run out of resources and I don't have to worry when the next shrine comes.
It's the same for the Barbarian temp hp ability that permanently reduces con and the same with stanch, which reduces the max hp by 1% every time you use it. If I am in a very dangerous situation and know the next shrine is just around the corner it is an easy choice, because 1% is barely noticable. On the other hand if I know I have to wait an hour for the next shrine or I'm in a raid where the harder phases are still waiting I wouldn't want to use it unless I can prevent a party wipe by doing it.
My suggestion would be to change it so the hp reduction goes up to 5-10% per stack and let the debuff last about 5 minutes. 5-10% are still not that bad (most of the time you won't even notice) and it essentially puts the ability on a 5min cooldown with the option of using it more often at a higher cost. There can also be some adjustments made like changing it so stacks fade 1 at a time or all of them go at once and changing it so the penalty stacks multiplicative.

[Vargouille]

1) 1 AP, class level 1: Tainted Spellcasting:

The most loaded 1APs i ever seen? The scaling per cores is a neat idea tho:

1st Cores are a challenge to design, like all low-tier abilities. High tier abilities are much easier to design, they can be unique, flashy, and powerful, and have far fewer restrictions on how they need to fit the puzzle.

They are essentially class features, since the limit on how many trees you can take is not prohibitive, so we have to assume all Warlocks will gain all the 1st Cores from all trees (if they are at all desirable for that). Enlightened Spirit partially sidesteps this by having the Aura there -- if you want to actively Eldritch Blast, it's not really for you. Tainted Spellcasting attempts to deal with this by being relatively bad if you are not taking more Tainted Scholar cores (and we may well increase the 7 second time up to a higher time for just the first Core, depending on testing).


2) +60% spell crit damage? That is seriously overkill :P
id change it to 1/2/2% spell crit, +20% crit damage in the capstone only!.
We'll see. Without the capstone, it's about a 15% damage boost if you have 50% crit chance. (15% great to have, of course!)

Capstones should be strong.


4) The stun length is too much really, unless its a non helpless variant of the stun. Again granted too cheap for a ranged attack, where other classes have to work much harder to get reliable stuns. Id change it to: 6seconds, only works in Point Blank range. It should be single target regardless of EB shape.

This is an activated ability. It doesn't trigger on every Eldritch Blast. There's no "shape" here, it's always single-target.



5) Penetrating Blast: Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast base damage is now untyped instead of Force. You deal +1d6 Eldritch Blast damage.

I would move this to T5 -> it basically converts your DPS into irresistible. Incredibly huge benefit.

Right now our thinking is that we actually want any Warlock to be able to get this, even if they want Tier 5s in other trees.



Enervating Shadow: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: This Eldritch Blast auto-attack seeks out enemies, and inflicts a negative level 10% of the time.

Bewitching Blast: Your Eldritch Blast has a 10% chance to Confuse non-boss monsters for 6 seconds.

Confused monsters attack and are attacked by both monster characters and player characters.

If those works with aoe shapes, the rate is way too much. Id drop that to 6-7% if they can hit multiple targets.

Only Bewitching Blast affects other Shapes. Confusion (the ability, not effect) and Enervating Shadow are single-target activated abilities.



7) Low cores are too loaded with spell DCs.
Id either change them to spell pen, or just offer them as AP buyouts in T3 planar focus. With the Requirement to have 5/10/15 levels in Warlock.

Why?


Otherwise looks good, interesting, has a nice flavor feel. As per 1st post, the power is quite overdone. EB is possibly the strongest main attack yet in DDO, everything else can be a support ability, or multiclass flavor.

We're pretty sure this isn't blowing away DDO's melee attacks, which can reasonably have the equivalent of +600% Critical Damage. (Picks start with +300%. Spellcasters currently get more Spellpower than melee characters get Melee Power, there are other balancing factors, etc.)



Yes, +25 spell power and +2 DC is pretty big, but as a dc caster, you want to go pure. It has 1 minute CD.

Yes. If this needs adjusting, adding 20 seconds to cooldown is well within the realm of possibilities, or making it harder to get Depravity with only 1 Core. (We're less worried about the guy who has 41 points in Tainted Scholar than the guy who has 1.)



If you look closely, it says: +1 DC to warlock spells. And warlocks need it very badly..
This is the major benefit for the capstones Charisma in our mind, yes.


The Blast stances here and the Auras in Enlightened - are they mutually exclusive between themselves and with one another?

The Shapes are exclusive with the Aura. You can't be blasting constantly with your auto-attack while also passively blasting around you.


Probably too late to prod the art department, but something like this as a "standing idle" animation would be sweet. :cool:
While your auto-attack is Eldritch Blast, we're looking into having a custom combat-idle.

[Vargouille]

EDIT: very very quick numbers I tossed together has a TS standard EB doing 20-25% more damage compared to the aura's damage. Chain will bring it down obviously, but the real difference will be in base activation speed. How does the base EB compare to 2 seconds for the aura?

A single target Eldritch Blast fires off a lot faster than one per two seconds. Exact numbers and animations are in progress, but assuming you go through the whole attack chain, it's likely going to be faster than one per second. This isn't ponderous, stately spell casting, this is flinging arcane balls of doom around. (You don't get to also attack with melee/ranged while doing this, of course. Melee attacks are also more often than one per two seconds!)

[HastyPudding]

A single target Eldritch Blast fires off a lot faster than one per two seconds. Exact numbers and animations are in progress, but assuming you go through the whole attack chain, it's likely going to be faster than one per second. This isn't ponderous, stately spell casting, this is flinging arcane balls of doom around. (You don't get to also attack with melee/ranged while doing this, of course. Melee attacks are also more often than one per two seconds!)

Enough with this silliness of number crunching and coding, let's get down to the REAL nitty gritty details:

How's this animation going to look? :3

You know the majority of players have to look awesome while they play (my spellsinger looks ravishing in his mushroom cap cosmetic hat and dark noble robe). We going to have a Darth Vader force choke animation with eldritch blasts? Enervating Shadow going to look like a black magic/force missile? Eldritch chain going to be discernible from chain lightning or electric loop? What about the enlightened spirt's floating animation, is it going to be like pale master wraith form? These little details are those hidden cravings and perks that players reallllllly like. Games can be just as much about visual appeal and flavor as content, as shallow as that might seem.

[Ziindarax]

Dunno if this has been answered already, but with Utterdark (rather than calling it Unholy, as it does not do Evil damage) blast turning even your aura into a negative energy damage effect, would undead-form players benefit from the aura? Would they heal from it? Someone in the Enlightened Spirit thread was asking about this.


This is correct. Some of the wording is very precise and potentially confusing, which is why the diagram also has some colors in it.

Eldritch Essences: Unholy Blast, Faltering Blast, Penetrating Blast: You can turn one on at a time. They change the way other Eldritch Blasts work (including the single target one you get at first Warlock level, or Eldritch Chain, or Eldritch Cone, or Enervating Shadow, as well as the Aura in Enlightened spirit.)

Eldritch Blast Shapes: Basic single-target, Chain, Cone, Enervating Shadow. These are toggles that make your basic attack 'cast' Eldritch Blast. These are affected by things that say, "When you Eldritch Blast", or variations thereof (we probably need to lock down text templates for these but might not be there yet). This includes the Eldritch Essences but also other things that we choose not to make Eldritch Essences (it's not good to have too many since you can only turn on one at a time).

*Aura in Enlightened Spirit: This is similar to Eldritch Blast Shapes but is a bit different. It doesn't replace your auto-attack. There's also a few things that won't work directly with it (such as increased attack speed in Tainted Scholar). However, most of the "on-hit" effects of Eldritch Blast will work with this.

Activated Eldritch Blast: These are activated abilities that are not Shapes. These will usually function like SLAs, and deal damage based on your Eldritch Blast dice (both base and Pact), and trigger "on-hit" effects that care about Eldritch Blast (or spells!). This includes things like Eldritch Ball, Eldritch Burst and Spirit Blast. Whether you are auto-attacking with Eldritch Blast or not doesn't matter for these abilities, similar to how you can just cast spells between doing other things.

[BananaHat]

A single target Eldritch Blast fires off a lot faster than one per two seconds. Exact numbers and animations are in progress, but assuming you go through the whole attack chain, it's likely going to be faster than one per second. This isn't ponderous, stately spell casting, this is flinging arcane balls of doom around. (You don't get to also attack with melee/ranged while doing this, of course. Melee attacks are also more often than one per two seconds!)

Attack chain you say? I'm intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter... Will different shapes have different casting animations or will it just be obvious enough from the EB animation?

I had assumed it would just be a singular blasting animation. Just please make sure all races have the same animation speed, I seem to recall some issues with half-orcs when they came out. Do you unlock more flourishes with higher BAB similar to melee attacks? Are all casting animations the same speed relative to each other to prevent twitching as seen for THF?

[PermaBanned]

This isn't ponderous, stately spell casting, this is flinging arcane balls of doom around.Dude, I'm so holding you to this!


I know, I know: things in this state of development are subject to change & all, but... No. Nope, not on this one.
Make it so.

[psteen1]

Varg would it be possible to purge all mention of "auto-attack" from the descriptions? That is a WoW term. DDO players find it confusing. We don't auto-attack, which are standard attacks that happen all the time just by being in range. We are not WoW players. DDO players left click!

Also thanks for the Warlock class. It is bringing me out of DDO retirement.

[gwonbush]

Well, you can auto-attack by toggling the attack feat that every character is granted. Useful in quests like Schemes of the Enemy when you go fight a bag of hp with no means of fighting back. You can auto attack and do your own thing.

[Vargouille]

Varg would it be possible to purge all mention of "auto-attack" from the descriptions? That is a WoW term. DDO players find it confusing. We don't auto-attack, which are standard attacks that happen all the time just by being in range. We are not WoW players. DDO players left click!

Also thanks for the Warlock class. It is bringing me out of DDO retirement.
Basic attack?

I personally don't like "left click attack" because it may be that some players aren't using left click for that (or are actually using the Attack feat).

Names are hard. We usually don't have to talk about it like this. :)

[SableShadow]

DDO players left click!


I right click.
You left-clickers, and your left-clickie-ness!

[janave]

Why?

You are right, please ignore that part. :)

I still think the cores ideally would not offer that many "free" DCs, as its unprecedented even for the dedicated DC Mages. Archmages for example do not get access to increases without spending more APs.

Even if T.scholars end up on pair with more focused DC casters, the latter group may feel there is not enough going for them to stay with their specs/build.

[Drakos]

Basic attack?I personally don't like "left click attack" because it may be that some players aren't using left click for that (or are actually using the Attack feat).Names are hard. We usually don't have to talk about it like this. :)Then refer to it as your Standard Attack; I agree that auto-attack doesn't really fit for this game. I think that most players would understand Standard Attack.

[Drakos]

You are right, please ignore that part. :)I still think the cores ideally would not offer that many "free" DCs, as its unprecedented even for the dedicated DC Mages. Archmages for example do not get access to increases without spending more APs.Even if T.scholars end up on pair with more focused DC casters, the latter group may feel there is not enough going for them to stay with their specs/build.Yes, but remember due to the Warlock spells only going up to 6th level, these DC's are there to help offset the issue with Heightened.

[SacramentoSquid]

So far I am really excited about what I see planned for warlocks, and while there are a few things in the trees that I have reservations about, I want to wait until after actually testing things out to call for changes. There is however one giant redflag that I see in the proposal for this tree, the level 18 core has negative 25 hp's, which I kind of understand fitting thematically, however I have a hard time seeing this penalty as being justified for what the core offers. Given that it is a level 18 core, and that 18 levels in one class alone is already a big sacrifice, the benefit of 10% more damage output from your primary source, and that by your own math is roughly equal to the 20% crit bonus damage from the level 12 core, not to mention that the +1dc can lead to as much as 5% more damage, both of which affect everything you do, not just your blasts, hardly seems to warrant the HP penalty.

[psteen1]

Then refer to it as your Standard Attack; I agree that auto-attack doesn't really fit for this game. I think that most players would understand Standard Attack.

I agree... standard attack or basic attack.

Down with the "auto-attack"! There is nothing auto about DDO's action combat. That's what makes it cool compared to those lame MMOs.

[btolson]

We'll see. Without the capstone, it's about a 15% damage boost if you have 50% crit chance. (15% great to have, of course!)


I think you mean with the capstone, it's a 15% damage boost @ 50% crit chance.

You start from dealing x2.0 damage with crits, increasing to x2.6 with the capstone.

2.6/2.0 = 1.3, meaning your crits achieve a relative gain of 30%.

Thus, if you had 100% crit chance, this would signify a full 30% damage boost. At 50% crit chance you are realizing a 15% damage boost.

[btolson]

Basic attack?

I personally don't like "left click attack" because it may be that some players aren't using left click for that (or are actually using the Attack feat).

Names are hard. We usually don't have to talk about it like this. :)

For the sake of consistency, I think Basic Attack is good. I know Dance of Death and Defensive Sweep both reference "Basic Attack".

[MrWindupBird]

Looks very interesting, looking forward to testing on Lamma. A new playstyle would be welcome.

One concern is that it looks like most of the warlock comes from their Eldritch blast, which is great, but presents a scaling problem in epic levels. The only difference is Eldritch blast damage between a level 20 and a level 28 warlock will be from spellpower.

That's hard to balance: if it works well at 20, it won't at 28: the spellpower increases simply don't keep up with monster HP. It isn't remotely close: its why sorcs and wizards use primarily epic destiny abilities for DPS: the class spells that are great in heroics really trail off in late epics, since they too are scaling only with spellpower. Warlocks, both thematically and with a limited SP pool, won't be able to make as good use of epic destiny spells/abilities, so I'm a bit concerned about the offensive output of a class depending on a poorly-scaling ability at cap.
The reason melee and ranged scale well into epic now is that melee and ranged power give much greater marginal effects from 20-28 than spellpower does, and because melee weapons themselves scale up (also the improved critical profiles we get access to at 20). Attack speeds also scale somewhat with BAB.

Some pretend numbers for you:
assume 300 spellpower at 20, 500 at 28 (reasonable-ish)
225 spellpower from max/emp
Total multiplier at lvl 20: (3+2.25+1) = 6.25 x Elridtch Blast damage
Total multipler at lvl 20: (5 + 2.25 + 1) = 8.25 x Eldritch Blast damage, or about 30% more. Thats the problem- a lvl 28 character needs to be able to do more than 30% more damage than a lvl 20 character.


This is a big-picture problem, and one that will be hard to fix without some actual testing and numbers on Lammania.

That said, the tree looks pretty fun, and I'm looking forward to it. Love the idea of tying debuffs to blast.

[Vargouille]

Thats the problem- a lvl 28 character needs to be able to do more than 30% more damage than a lvl 20 character.

How much more should a 28 have over 20?

We haven't specified how much Eldritch Blast damage scales with Spell Power, and that's one of the things that's likely to change as we proceed and playtest.

[Xaxx]

How much more should a 28 have over 20?

We haven't specified how much Eldritch Blast damage scales with Spell Power, and that's one of the things that's likely to change as we proceed and playtest.

it would have to be a pretty incredible scale because its not like theres a massive amount of spell power in epic destinies for force or negative or untyped and items go from 90 to 150..... so blast damage has to scale enough to be useful on enemies with 8-18k hp at 28 and up ee from enemies that are at 500 to 5k hp at level 20.... with only what between 100 and 200 spell power with no dice boosting......

I'm not a fan of all the changes made to what a warlock was to make this warlock.. but if your going to do it and have its damage ties to mainly one big core mechanic.... that core mechanic BETTER work on ee...

of course this is how most casting is in epics which is why probably 75% of spells thrown in epic arcane are mass hold, ottos's, fod, wail, energy burst, dragons breath. Yet the warlock comes up dc short compared to wiz and without the spell power for an elemental school as sorc to back up energy burst.

There has to be something added for epics to bring blast to where it will need to be.

[Silverleafeon]

How much more should a 28 have over 20?

We haven't specified how much Eldritch Blast damage scales with Spell Power, and that's one of the things that's likely to change as we proceed and playtest.

Sadly I am not sure I can answer that.
But its something all casters suffer from.
As mobs scale faster than their spells.


Should we lay down some sort of scale such as:
"Here is the hit points of level 20 quest EH monsters and here is the hit points of level 30 quest EH monsters?"

Also,
"Here is the hit points of a level 20 Red Named EH Raid boss, and here is the hit points of a level 30 Red Named EH Raid boss?"

Also mix in:
"Here is a 25% mix of the ratios of EE monsters as they scale from 20 to 30."

Along with a mix in:
"Here is a 10% mix of the ratios of EN monsters as they scale from 20 to 30."

Ect...

[Angelic-council]

You are right, please ignore that part. :)

I still think the cores ideally would not offer that many "free" DCs, as its unprecedented even for the dedicated DC Mages. Archmages for example do not get access to increases without spending more APs.

Even if T.scholars end up on pair with more focused DC casters, the latter group may feel there is not enough going for them to stay with their specs/build.

With all do respect jan, you have to read my comment. Warlocks can't compete with DC wizards. Warlock spells will cap at level 6 (3 lower DC than a wizard), additionally.. only 2 slots are availbale per spell level. Also, they have extremely limited spell pool, nothing near close to a wizard, and even bards can beat it.

Now, just take a look at the warlock spell list/spell pool.. and imagine. Do you honestly think, that with 2 slots in each spell book and limited mana, they can outperform a wizard who get more SP, more spell choices, good self healing, excellent feat bonuses and everything.. Just because they get 2 fixed DC from core and 1 limited SLA, 2 DC tier 1 core. Alright, they also get 1 fixed DC from tier 5. Without counting core 1.. they get 3 DCs, which at this point, they are finally per with arcane class.

Edit: you have to invest a lot in this tree before getting all those missing DCs.

[MrWindupBird]

How much more should a 28 have over 20?

We haven't specified how much Eldritch Blast damage scales with Spell Power, and that's one of the things that's likely to change as we proceed and playtest.


It's a good question. I dont have a nice clean answer for you, but I'm trying to demonstrate what I think is an inevitable wall you'll run into.

These are pretty soft numbers, but having done many many ETRs on multiple platforms, my gut tells me that a well-built level 28 melee with destinies probably does 3-4 times (closer to 4) the damage of the same lvl 20 melee without destinies. For a sorc, the number is probably more like twice as much damage, mostly due to the ED abilities they gain like Energy Burst, Ruin, and Hellball: their spell damage doesn't go up tremendously, and it certainly doesnt double. Warlocks wont have the sp pool to fuel these ED abilities like Hellball/Ruin (I think), and I don't get the impression that the devs want their epic viability to be exclusively contingent on ED abilities like eburst anyway.

So, if warlocks are going to be defined by Eldritch Blast, and Eldritch Blast scales slowly into epics as shown above, then you can balance one end or the other (at 20 or at 28), but not both- there just isn't enough growth in the damage output.

Does that make sense? It's not a new problem, it's one that casters have dealt with for a long time, but it will actually be more acute with warlocks, due to the lack of other options. I'm not saying that the damage is too high or too low, since we cant test that yet and decide, but I am confident saying that right now they'll either be very OP at 20 and ok at 28 or ok at 20 and quite weak at 28. It's not the only part of the game that matters, but it is what most (?) people play nowadays.

Not sure how to fix it: one possibility would be to disallow metamagics and scale eldritch blast with something like 200% spellpower: the extra spellpower from metamagics kind of blunts the increased spellpower gain from 20 to 28, proportionally. Using the numbers from earlier (300 spellpower at 20, 500 at 28) that would give almost multiplier of 7 at 20, and a multipler of 11 at 28. So, about 55% more damage: better, but still lower growth in damage than what other characters experience
Ideally epic levels would have improved base class characteristics and added base dice to Eldritch Blast, but that ship has sailed.

Still want to try it all out, get it to Lammaland soon!

[Silverleafeon]

Well said, MrWindupBird.


Eventually Maximize and Empower figure very heavily into spell DPS, which is why SLA (which can be meta-magiced for free) become so important.


Since you are still designing Epic Level feats what about:

"Epic Maximize" ~ you can apply this metamagic to spell for zero sp cost.
You add 200 spell power to these spells.
This does not stack with Empower or Maximize spell feats.
Requirements: Level 30
Anti-requisite Empower or Maximize spell feats. (You cannot have both.)


Or, add it without the anti-requisiste, it would definately grant Spellcasters a free boost at level cap without more sp cost.

"Epic Maximize" ~ you can apply this metamagic to spell for zero sp cost.
You add 200 spell power to these spells.

[maddong]

How much more should a 28 have over 20?

We haven't specified how much Eldritch Blast damage scales with Spell Power, and that's one of the things that's likely to change as we proceed and playtest.

How much more damage does a level 28 melee or repeater or star chucker with tier 3 thunder forged do vs a level 20?

[Silverleafeon]

Yepper, you folks have front loaded most of the spell power.
The higher one goes the less available...

[Silverleafeon]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMetamagic

Plain as day, Epic ability for reduced metamagics:

"Improved Metamagic [Epic]
Prerequisites

Four metamagic feats, Spellcraft 30 ranks.
Benefit

The spell slot modifier of all your metamagic feats is reduced by one level, to a minimum of +1. This feat has no effect on metamagic feats whose spell slot modifier is +1 or less.
Special

You can gain this feat multiple times. The effects stack, though you can’t reduce any metamagic feat’s spell slot modifier to less than +1. "



Of course, one has to understand this is the spell slot system.

[HatsuharuZ]

How much more should a 28 have over 20?

We haven't specified how much Eldritch Blast damage scales with Spell Power, and that's one of the things that's likely to change as we proceed and playtest.

Not sure, but if you added 3 universal spell power at each epic level for all classes, then all casters would appreciate it.

[Silverleafeon]

Not sure, but if you added 3 universal spell power at each epic level for all classes, then all casters would appreciate it.

Good point.

It might should be more, spellcasting are used to doing with 200~400+ spell power.
Melee and ranged power is typically half that.
But whatever.


So looking at a Legendary Dreadnought Toon:

Gains Epic Power = +3 ranged and +3 melee power per epic level
Gains +3 melee power per level of LD (and if this increases from level 5 to 10 which it ought to that complexes things).


However, assuming one changes things from this angle:

All Epic Destiny Levels would be examined and grant about 6ish Universal Spell Power.
Some more, some less.

Then Epic Power would be changed to grant:
+3 ranged
+3 melee power
+6 universal spell power
per epic level


Now we have some decent scaling going on during Epic levels.
Let us see how that compares to Epic Maximize (150 universal free spell power)

Level 20 --- Full ED of 30 universal spell power
Level 28 --- Increase of 48 universal spell power

Hmm...and we have to go thru the effort of ranking all the Epic Destinies too.
Not enough scaling between level 20 and 28 (which is a problem due to the instant full ED available at 20).


How about moving it all to Epic Power instead?
Increase to +10 universal Spell Power per Epic Level

Level 20 --- Zero
Level 28 --- Increase of 80 universal spell power

This is actually about 2 more than the 78 shown above.
But 70 less than my example with the epic feat tax.

I think maybe Sevs Dot Epic Spell, HatsuharuZ's theories and an new Epic Item with a higher reduced spell cost along with some better metamagic item reducing spell costs might be the better route?

Nicely done.

But is it enough?

How much will +80 spell power do for toons that easily have 350 spell power to begin with at level cap?

Take a spell that does 100 damage.

Spell power rating determines how much damage you deal with spells. In most cases, each point of spell power increase increases the base damage of your spell by 1%. Various effects can contribute to your spell power, all effects are added together.

So with 300 spell power (Fawngate's best spell exceed thus but most come to at ? Let me log in and look.)

Assume 300 (which is low).

100 damage becomes 400 damage.

Increasing thus to 380 spell power.
100 damage becomes 480 damage which is an increase of 480/400 = 20% increase in spell damage.

This is assuming one does not apply Empower or Maximize to one's spells.

But, one will go higher.

Fawngate's spells she does not care about are at 318 (and they rise +60 in battle)
The spell she does care about are 393, 467, 441

So her favorite spell type will easily break 500 in a dungeon.
100 damage becomes 600 damage.
Increasing 80 universal spell power, 100 damage becomes 680 damage.

The net increase is 13%

Given the effects that I have seen a mere 20 melee power do, I must conclude that melee power and spell power are in totally different categories.

Should we add an applied +225 for both Empower and Maximize for 725,
the new net increase is about 9%


I am going to lean back and say I like the simple solution of Epic Maximized Metamagic applied for free available at level cap better.
We need more really good Epic Feats.
I made a whole bunch of suggestions on the player's council last year and only one of them was a popular choice among the council members, so I can easily say its tough to get good ideas for epic feats.

[XxJFGxX]

Enervating Shadow: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: This Eldritch Blast auto-attack seeks out enemies, and inflicts a negative level 10% of the time.

I believe this maybe a bit weak in epic content on how mobs regen stat damage/ neg levels especially with a 10% proc rate. I suggest an alternative such as:

Utterdark Blast: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: This Eldritch Blast auto-attack seeks out enemies, and inflicts 2 negative levels on a failed Fortitude save. DC 10 + Warlock level + Cha mod + Sundering, combat feats, etc.



I personally wouldn't mind a passive bonus to Universal Spell Power every epic level as well as having some critical damage multiplier with spells added to caster feats.

[Silverleafeon]

I personally wouldn't mind a passive bonus to Universal Spell Power every epic level as well as having some critical damage multiplier with spells added to caster feats.

Looking like maybe the best choice...hmm...at the one that scales the best.
Its going to take more than +3 to fix the problematic situation that mob scaling is spiraling out of control.

Melees can swing that sword all day long and just break a sweat.
Even +10 USP per Epic Level will be minor sadly.
I hate to promote power creep, but things are getting out of hand.
Just wait till we get into a Level 34 Raid...

[XxJFGxX]

Looking like maybe the best choice...hmm...at the one that scales the best.
Its going to take more than +3 to fix the problematic situation that mob scaling is spiraling out of control.

Melees can swing that sword all day long and just break a sweat.
Even +10 USP per Epic Level will be minor sadly.
I hate to promote power creep, but things are getting out of hand.
Just wait till we get into a Level 34 Raid...

Well the devs need to add spell critical multiplier into wizards and sorcs through their core enhancements. Reason for this is because the meta right now in this game is mostly melee and casters have been left in the dust in terms of overall dps from their spell casting. And something tells me that the devs arn't going back to tweak wizards and sorcs anytime soon.

[Silverleafeon]

Another reason melee damage overperforms compared to caster dps into epics, there is no caster equivalent to pulverizer, devistating crit, overwhelming crit, you just do double damage on crit, period. Also as melees get better weapons and various ways to add [w], there is nothing like this for casters. Imagine if equipping a thunderforged orb made your fireballs do 4.5[10d6], or ruin do 4.5[500d1]...


Well the devs need to add spell critical multiplier into wizards and sorcs through their core enhancements. Reason for this is because the meta right now in this game is mostly melee and casters have been left in the dust in terms of overall dps from their spell casting. And something tells me that the devs arn't going back to tweak wizards and sorcs anytime soon.


Well, perhaps Epic Power simply needs rewriting:

Epic Power

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: None

Description

+3 Melee Power
+3 Ranged Power
+10 Universal Spell Power
+15% Universal Spell Crit Bonus Damage

Note This feat is automatically given to all characters each time they gain an Epic level.



Also, each Epic Destiny Innate could have 1d6 Universal Spell Power added to it.
(Or we could use a more scientific method ;)

[XxJFGxX]

Well, perhaps Epic Power simply needs rewriting:

Epic Power

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: None

Description

+3 Melee Power
+3 Ranged Power
+10 Universal Spell Power
+15% Universal Spell Crit Bonus Damage

Note This feat is automatically given to all characters each time they gain an Epic level.



Also, each Epic Destiny Innate could have 1d6 Universal Spell Power added to it.
(Or we could use a more scientific method ;)

/signed :)

Whenever the devs decide to tweak wizards and sorcs they should add critical damage multiplier to their cores as well as give sorcs their capstone back through a new enhancement tree. Maybe Acolyte of the Skin? ;)

[gwonbush]

I'm trying to think of an enemy that unholy blast is superior against compared to the normal eldritch blast. Pretty much everything that absorbs force damage in any capacity is a construct and therefor immune to negative energy. Not to mention, your force spellpower should be higher than your negative spellpower since heal isn't a class skill. The only situation I can think of that is better is if you work with a monk who uses the dark-dark-dark finisher to add negative energy vulnerability.

As such, Unholy Blast feels like a 2 AP tax to get to Essences that actually do something besides make your Eldritch blast useful against less targets (no undead, constructs or deathwarded enemies). Maybe it can also boost Eldritch blast damage when toggled, so it applies more damage to the targets that it can effect.

[Failedlegend]

Well, perhaps Epic Power simply needs rewriting:

Epic Power

Usage: Passive
Prerequisite: None

Description

+3 Melee Power
+3 Ranged Power
+10 Universal Spell Power
+15% Universal Spell Crit Bonus Damage


I'd like to see .5 generic DC for each level (obviously with the ED DOcs removed)

[Angelic-council]

How much more should a 28 have over 20?

We haven't specified how much Eldritch Blast damage scales with Spell Power, and that's one of the things that's likely to change as we proceed and playtest.

I don't think anyone can answer this without actually testing it.. but it's a good question.

The difference between lv 1 - 20 content and lv21 - 32 are huge.. You can get 90 spell power item at lv20, and in the end it's 150. People usually get around 200 spell power at lv20 and 400 - 440 at lv28. Let's say, a warlock somehow managed to aquire 1d6 eldritch damage x 30 times (if possible), he would be hitting around 90 - 540 damage (lv20 with 200 spell power) and 150 - 900 (lv28 with 400 spell power). That's if.. he could aquire 1d6' 30 times and eldritch blast scale 100% with spell power. Now, regular monsters at lv20 would have around 3 - 4k HP and 10 - 15k in lv28+ quests.

Now, if a warlock has 60% critical damage, he would be critting somewhere around 1440 damage at lv28 (lucky crit).

Edit: Now the real question. How much "?d?" a pure warlock can get.

[Dalsheel]

Not sure, but if you added 3 universal spell power at each epic level for all classes, then all casters would appreciate it.

Since casters get +1 universal spell power at every epic level through the Skill Mastery feat, it would make more sense to give them +2 universal spell power as the equivalent of +3 MP/RP

[Vargouille]

These are pretty soft numbers, but having done many many ETRs on multiple platforms, my gut tells me that a well-built level 28 melee with destinies probably does 3-4 times (closer to 4) the damage of the same lvl 20 melee without destinies. For a sorc, the number is probably more like twice as much damage, mostly due to the ED abilities they gain like Energy Burst, Ruin, and Hellball: their spell damage doesn't go up tremendously, and it certainly doesnt double. Warlocks wont have the sp pool to fuel these ED abilities like Hellball/Ruin (I think), and I don't get the impression that the devs want their epic viability to be exclusively contingent on ED abilities like eburst anyway.

So, if warlocks are going to be defined by Eldritch Blast, and Eldritch Blast scales slowly into epics as shown above, then you can balance one end or the other (at 20 or at 28), but not both- there just isn't enough growth in the damage output.

Does that make sense? It's not a new problem, it's one that casters have dealt with for a long time, but it will actually be more acute with warlocks, due to the lack of other options. I'm not saying that the damage is too high or too low, since we cant test that yet and decide, but I am confident saying that right now they'll either be very OP at 20 and ok at 28 or ok at 20 and quite weak at 28. It's not the only part of the game that matters, but it is what most (?) people play nowadays.

Not sure how to fix it: one possibility would be to disallow metamagics and scale eldritch blast with something like 200% spellpower: the extra spellpower from metamagics kind of blunts the increased spellpower gain from 20 to 28, proportionally. Using the numbers from earlier (300 spellpower at 20, 500 at 28) that would give almost multiplier of 7 at 20, and a multipler of 11 at 28. So, about 55% more damage: better, but still lower growth in damage than what other characters experience
Ideally epic levels would have improved base class characteristics and added base dice to Eldritch Blast, but that ship has sailed.

Nice post, amongst some other good posts. Thanks for your thoughts.


Still want to try it all out, get it to Lammaland soon!

We're trying! Have to finish making an alpha pass here to test it here locally before there's any chance you guys can see it! :)

[Lanadazia]

[1]Activate for 7 Depravity: Gains temporary hitpoints equal to your maximum hitpoints. These last for 1 minute. You have -1% maximum hitpoints until you rest, which stacks up to 99 times.


[2]30 AP, class level 18: Blood Component:

Your Eldritch Blast attacks 10% faster.
+10 maximum Depravity.
-25 Maximum HP
Greater Heroism is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 5.



[3]Feigned Health: When you cast spells on yourself or allies, you grant temporary hitpoints equal to (33%/66%/100%) of your Charisma.


[4]Unholy Blast: Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast base damage is now Negative instead of Force.


[5]Eldritch Chain: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: When toggled on, your basic attack an Eldritch Blast that chains to two other enemies. This scales with 66% spellpower.


[6]Faltering Blast: Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast attacks have a 25% chance to slow enemy movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds.

[7]Confused monsters attack and are attacked by both monster characters and player characters.

[8]Enervating Shadow: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: This Eldritch Blast auto-attack seeks out enemies, and inflicts a negative level 10% of the time.




1) a shield as strong as max. hp? thats broken, even with the stacking -1% penalty... a shield that is equal to the con or cha score would fit better maybe

2) is that minus 25 hp? like some sort of blood sacrifice to attain a higher caster-status? (don't really know the correct words for what i try to say..)

3) this looks really really cool! i'd try a supporter/off-heal warlock for sure, some interessting stuff in all the trees for that playstyle!

4) is this a fluff-enhancement? i'd like a toggle or a multi-selector, so you can decide if you're doing negative or force damage/ switch between negative/force

5) this looks really cool aswell!

6) i think the enhnacements from 5) and 6) should be swapped, so that you first get the stance and after that the shape stance

7) does that mean that player character damage on a confused monster won't break confusion?

8) again, this looks reall really cool!

overall a very nice enhancement-tree. i like it alot. it seems to be pretty polished already. just some minor tweaks and it should be done :)

[BMurph]

It's a good question. I dont have a nice clean answer for you, but I'm trying to demonstrate what I think is an inevitable wall you'll run into.

These are pretty soft numbers, but having done many many ETRs on multiple platforms, my gut tells me that a well-built level 28 melee with destinies probably does 3-4 times (closer to 4) the damage of the same lvl 20 melee without destinies. For a sorc, the number is probably more like twice as much damage, mostly due to the ED abilities they gain like Energy Burst, Ruin, and Hellball: their spell damage doesn't go up tremendously, and it certainly doesnt double. Warlocks wont have the sp pool to fuel these ED abilities like Hellball/Ruin (I think), and I don't get the impression that the devs want their epic viability to be exclusively contingent on ED abilities like eburst anyway.

So, if warlocks are going to be defined by Eldritch Blast, and Eldritch Blast scales slowly into epics as shown above, then you can balance one end or the other (at 20 or at 28), but not both- there just isn't enough growth in the damage output.

Does that make sense? It's not a new problem, it's one that casters have dealt with for a long time, but it will actually be more acute with warlocks, due to the lack of other options. I'm not saying that the damage is too high or too low, since we cant test that yet and decide, but I am confident saying that right now they'll either be very OP at 20 and ok at 28 or ok at 20 and quite weak at 28. It's not the only part of the game that matters, but it is what most (?) people play nowadays.

Not sure how to fix it: one possibility would be to disallow metamagics and scale eldritch blast with something like 200% spellpower: the extra spellpower from metamagics kind of blunts the increased spellpower gain from 20 to 28, proportionally. Using the numbers from earlier (300 spellpower at 20, 500 at 28) that would give almost multiplier of 7 at 20, and a multipler of 11 at 28. So, about 55% more damage: better, but still lower growth in damage than what other characters experience
Ideally epic levels would have improved base class characteristics and added base dice to Eldritch Blast, but that ship has sailed.

Still want to try it all out, get it to Lammaland soon!

Honestly, I think it's gotten to the point where empower and maximize need to be revisited/redone yet again. Before we had spell power, they offered a % boost to dmg which stacked additively with all the other damage boosts which is essentially how spell power works now. However this only worked out well before as there wasn't as much scaling as we have now with the epics for enemy hp. Right now if you play a sorc, you can see a huge dmg spike in the low lvls when you first get maximize and empower as that gets you +225 spell power before you can really get any heavy spell power items. However, as you lvl, the effect of those metamagics go down as you gain more spell power.

To better illustrate this, we can say that a fire savant at lvl 3 having both empower and maximize gets that nice +225 spellpower while only being able to use say a +1 thaumaturgy staff which would give 3 + 36 = 39 spellpower and then maybe some fire savant enhancements for some more spell power of say around 26 to give 39 + 26 = 67 total spellpower. Throw in some spellcraft for some added spellpower and well say roughly a nice round +8 to give us 75 for ease of calculations. So then at lvl 3, applying metamagics gives us 4x as much spellpower overall and more than double added dmg (175% compared to 400%).

Now lets look at the opposite side of the spectrum at lvl 28 with say some thunder-forged gear (its easier to make and gives better overall stats at cap) and full ED. 1st we get roughly 90 spellpower from fire savant alone, then, assuming we go full draconic incarnation (just to help with the point of spellpower issues) we get an extra 30 fire spellpower. Then say we twist in flames of purity from DC for another 30 fire spellpower. Next add in the spellpower bonus of spellcraft, assuming full ranks we get 31 total fire spellpower from that. Now the big boost, we have a tier 3 thunder-forged staff for fire so +14 enhancement bonus gives 42 implement spellpower bonus, then we get a 150 spellpower equipment boost. adding all those up we get 90+30+30+31+42+150 = 373 fire spellpower which well just round up to a nice 375 assuming a simple added +2 int mod to spellcraft bonus for calculation simplicity. This could be further boosted temporarily with various items or enhancements that proc on spell cast, but well leave this at this value for now.

Now with our lvl 28 spell power we 375 spellpower without metas, and now 600 with so we go from 475% base dmg to 700%. We've gone from the meta magics more than doubling our dmg at lvl 3, to now only offering an extra 50% roughly at lvl 28, less than 1/4 the original effectiveness. This is why caster dps takes such a nose dive in epic levels. As the monsters hp scales exponentially up, the dps is actually scaling downward in the end (it's still increasing, but just at diminishing rates).

At the very least, empower and maximize should be consistent in its boost thru all levels, and to do that, I believe a simple overall % boost to damage from them applied AFTER spellpower is calculated into the equation would help immensely. Why not make empower and maximize do what they originally were intended to do? Have empower go back to total 50% boost to dmg and have maximize go back to total +100% to dmg. Whether they stack additively or multiplicatively is up to you, but regardless, keeping consistent scaling that'll favor the end game where the caster dps needs it the most would be greatly appreciated.

As always any thoughts, ideas, counter data, supporting data, etc. is appreciated.

[Vargouille]

1) a shield as strong as max. hp? thats broken, even with the stacking -1% penalty... a shield that is equal to the con or cha score would fit better maybe

2) is that minus 25 hp? like some sort of blood sacrifice to attain a higher caster-status? (don't really know the correct words for what i try to say..)

3) this looks really really cool! i'd try a supporter/off-heal warlock for sure, some interessting stuff in all the trees for that playstyle!


We'll probably be pulling back on the power level of Stanch.
Yes, the -25 HP represents giving up some of your blood.




4) is this a fluff-enhancement? i'd like a toggle or a multi-selector, so you can decide if you're doing negative or force damage/ switch between negative/force
We're probably going to revisit this and make it into Poison damage due to mismatches between intent, and some confusion. The goal is to give a method to switch away from Force damage for the main Eldritch Blast damage, since players have expressed a lot of concerns over that.

Will probably need a name change!


7) does that mean that player character damage on a confused monster won't break confusion?

Our current thinking is that Confusion doesn't have any chance to break on damage, despite not following the PnP version.

[Vargouille]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.

[HastyPudding]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.


...pierce damage? So...it won't scale with spellpower? That seems rather odd.

[Vargouille]

...pierce damage? So...it won't scale with spellpower? That seems rather odd.

Like Blade Barrier, it will still scale with Spell Power. The type of damage determines which type of spellpower affects it, not whether or not it does.

[Zzevel]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.



Unholy Blight plays better with poison dmg... I like the change

[Xaxx]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.


Ok so stanch is going into teir 1 or 2 now with this change since you made it an emergency skill and not an actual useful ability? What will be the new core to replace it? (anyone who wants to argue that...tell me how often you see positive energy infusion used... even if the %'s are different you want to take a spell thats only used in a handful of situations on artis and make it a core ability.... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...)

Unholy change meh..
Pen change... hope i never find a horror champ with pierce block...

As for the deparivity cost... congrats you have pretty much every sla like ability in the tree tied to a slow build mutual lock out timer.... *flips the sarcasm switch to 14* WHAT A BRILLIANT IDEA

[onny]

Thoughts on name for Unholy Blast.....

Tainted blast (kinda obvious)
Blighted Blast (from tomb of the blighted and common poison name)
Withering Blast (from the plant kill spell)



I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.

[Jetrule]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.


I would Haggle for 50% and dings 2%. I didnt think it was bad as it was.. It lasted only one minute.

Piercing isn't very penetrating. It will be subject to all sorts of alignment and material dr if it is treated as physical piercing right? If so not so good there. Lucky for us force is rarely resisted.

These proposed changes take these two enhancements out of the attractive cattegory

Unholy blast change becomes slightly more attractive however. Suggested name change- Toxic onslaught or Virulent barrage.

[Vargouille]

I would Haggle for 50% and dings 2%. I didnt think it was bad as it was.. It lasted only one minute.

Reminder to everyone: It's important to speak up when you like something, not just when you don't like it. :)
(This kind of PSA never works, but I can keep trying! =)


Piercing isn't very penetrating. It will be subject to all sorts of alignment and material dr if it is treated as physical piercing right?

It's not physical Piercing damage, it's magical Piercing damage. Like Blade Barrier is magical Slashing damage.

[Drakos]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.Changes:

Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.

I like the change to the Unholy Blast but cannot support the changes to Stanch or Penetrating. In the case of Stanch, it is a matter of survivability at higher levels. the Temp HP only lasted 1 minute. As mentioned above, at least go with 50% and -2%. I also think the -2% stacks should wear off over time and not require a rest. One of the best things about Warlocks it the no need to rest to recover resources. For Penetrating Blast, I believe that the default type should be untyped, as in PnP, now you have removed any ability for us to properly emulate the EB as it should be.

[Sebastrd]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.



I think it's unwise to start fiddling with numbers like this before we even have a chance to see it in action. Let's see how it plays first, and then adjust it downward if it's too good in actual play. Forumites have a history of over- or underestimating abilities on paper.

[Arkadios]

I think it's unwise to start fiddling with numbers like this before we even have a chance to see it in action. Let's see how it plays first, and then adjust it downward if it's too good in actual play. Forumites have a history of over- or underestimating abilities on paper.

Have to agree here, 100% with -1% did seem slightly too powerful, however I'd like to see something like 100% for -3% or 50 for -2%. 33% for -3% had just made a core that everyone wanted to one where they will only get if they want the higher ones. (imo).

However it does need real testing on Llama-land before any of these numbers can be pinned down (like spellpower for E.B).

[Ziindarax]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.



Okay, why was Unholy Blast changed from Negative energy, something that affects most mobs, and only heals undead, to something that is completely worthless against constructs, demons, and undead (the latter two being the most prevalent in your content)?

Was it because the undead form people could heal from Unholy Blast in your private testing (in which case, that would have actually been pretty awesome, as undead form has some pretty weak healing amp compared to war(/blade)forged and fleshies)? In any event, I strongly agree with Sebastrd on fiddling around with numbers before we've even had a chance to play test any of this on Lamannia. The changes should ONLY be made once ACTUAL Playing reveals that changes need to be made. Otherwise, we risk having a class that comes out of the gate too weak to be worth spending Turbine points on. :?


Speaking of Lama, when are we finally going to be allowed to take a crack at Warlocks? We've less than a week of May left, and with Warlock coming out in June, it seems like we might only have a week or two of actual play testing, and by then, it could be too late - Let's not have a class that comes out weak, and then needs an update/pass alongside the other casters.

[gwonbush]

Thoughts on changing unholy blast to poison damage: it is still not really useful against anything that can resist force damage. That being said, it does have more synergy with other classes than negative energy does. Sting of the Ninja at full stacks will double the damage, so that is pretty nice.

Also, another vote for Staunch being 50% max hp at the cost of -2%.

[Vargouille]

Okay, why was Unholy Blast changed from Negative energy, something that affects most mobs, and only heals undead, to something that is completely worthless against constructs, demons, and undead (the latter two being the most prevalent in your content)?

Negative Energy was a terrible choice. Half the questions about it involved asking if it healed friendly undead. That was not intended and almost certainly wouldn't have worked (without remaking everything that had been started and changing the designs around it), so it would have been incredibly confusing with little benefit.


Was it because the undead form people could heal from Unholy Blast in your private testing (in which case, that would have actually been pretty awesome, as undead form has some pretty weak healing amp compared to war(/blade)forged and fleshies)?

Precisely the opposite, which is why it needed to change. No actual testing needed to be involved once it was pointed out. That would also be a wildly different ability than what was intended, and this is exactly the right time to fix errors like that.


In any event, I strongly agree with Sebastrd on fiddling around with numbers before we've even had a chance to play test any of this on Lamannia. The changes should ONLY be made once ACTUAL Playing reveals that changes need to be made.
No.

At best, this is an argument for us delaying sharing designs with the public. We change the numbers all the time. Enhancement abilities and other Warlock numbers have changed dozens of times before we posted them live to you guys, and usually before it even makes it to the Council, because we find all kinds of wrong things on our own. 5 becomes 10 or Will becomes Reflex or Fortification becomes PRR; often the abilities are very similar looking overall but the details need to honed in. That iteration doesn't stop just because you guys have seen them. The process continues, only hopefully it's faster because there are many players looking at things. We want the best shot at every opportunity. The only reason iteration dramatically slows eventually is because a feature is actually on live and players have made characters with those features, and we actually don't like to mess with existing characters.

We are human, and make mistakes, and sometimes they are obvious mistakes. Negative Energy was a terrible, awful idea (of mine), and was one of the abilities that came in very late to the design, replacing another (worse) enhancement. In some ideal, time-filled world we'd have more time to vet these before showing them to you. Yet nearly all feedback from players has been "show sooner, you can fix it after that". This is the route we've taken right now.


Speaking of Lama, when are we finally going to be allowed to take a crack at Warlocks?
After we've built it.

[Drakos]

Yet nearly all feedback from players has been "show sooner, you can fix it after that". This is the route we've taken right now. And I hope you continue along these lines. I like that we have a bit of time to see it and offer opinions before it hits public beta test. It helps the Devs to have more eyes on the problem to see things that slip through; like the negative energy thing. It helps the players by allowing them to express their opinions on what looks fun and what does not, to improve the final product. Pleas ignore comments to the contrary.

[btolson]

Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)


What does poison damage scale with? Potency items only? Aren't you guaranteed to be around -50 spellpower from gear at cap using poison compared to force? And -10% crit chance?

[HastyPudding]

Negative Energy was a terrible choice. Half the questions about it involved asking if it healed friendly undead. That was not intended and almost certainly wouldn't have worked (without remaking everything that had been started and changing the designs around it), so it would have been incredibly confusing with little benefit.



Precisely the opposite, which is why it needed to change. No actual testing needed to be involved once it was pointed out. That would also be a wildly different ability than what was intended, and this is exactly the right time to fix errors like that.


No.

At best, this is an argument for us delaying sharing designs with the public. We change the numbers all the time. Enhancement abilities and other Warlock numbers have changed dozens of times before we posted them live to you guys, and usually before it even makes it to the Council, because we find all kinds of wrong things on our own. 5 becomes 10 or Will becomes Reflex or Fortification becomes PRR; often the abilities are very similar looking overall but the details need to honed in. That iteration doesn't stop just because you guys have seen them. The process continues, only hopefully it's faster because there are many players looking at things. We want the best shot at every opportunity. The only reason iteration dramatically slows eventually is because a feature is actually on live and players have made characters with those features, and we actually don't like to mess with existing characters.

We are human, and make mistakes, and sometimes they are obvious mistakes. Negative Energy was a terrible, awful idea (of mine), and was one of the abilities that came in very late to the design, replacing another (worse) enhancement. In some ideal, time-filled world we'd have more time to vet these before showing them to you. Yet nearly all feedback from players has been "show sooner, you can fix it after that". This is the route we've taken right now.


After we've built it.


Heh, I get the impression from this post of Vargouille shaking a wooden cooking spoon saying "It'll be done when it's done, stop asking."

[Failedlegend]

Reminder to everyone: It's important to speak up when you like something, not just when you don't like it. :)
(This kind of PSA never works, but I can keep trying! =)

Well I also think that 33% for 3% kind of kills the ability but 100% was a bit OP, 50% for 2% seems fair.



It's not physical Piercing damage, it's magical Piercing damage. Like Blade Barrier is magical Slashing damage.

So is magical piercing damage still subject to piercing DR? Also what boosts magical physical damage? Actually what spellpower boosts poison damage?

Honestly Warlocks have to deal with ALOT of damage types, which is on one hand FANTASTIC as it makes them incredibly versatile but at the same time it means their limited to Universal Spellpower (especially since thats what their caster tree grants) which not only has far less sources item wise (and is always behind the same at level of specific elements), it also doesn't have a skill backing it up.

Is there any possibility of granting USP based on your UMD score (as spellcraft grants elemental damage) possibly in Tainted Scholar if not base Warlock.


Yet nearly all feedback from players has been "show sooner, you can fix it after that". This is the route we've taken right now.

Luckily MOST of us understand this please don't stop



After we've built it.

Seriously guys stop asking, it's not accomplishing anything but annoying the devs.

[Ziindarax]

I stand corrected! Sorry if I seemed a bit combative there. Now that you've clarified, I think I have to agree, and would have been disappointed once I found out the hard way.

Thanks for clearing that up Varg. :)

So about the poison damage, is this like a supernatural poison (that would, theoretically, affect everything)?


Negative Energy was a terrible choice. Half the questions about it involved asking if it healed friendly undead. That was not intended and almost certainly wouldn't have worked (without remaking everything that had been started and changing the designs around it), so it would have been incredibly confusing with little benefit.



Precisely the opposite, which is why it needed to change. No actual testing needed to be involved once it was pointed out. That would also be a wildly different ability than what was intended, and this is exactly the right time to fix errors like that.


No.

At best, this is an argument for us delaying sharing designs with the public. We change the numbers all the time. Enhancement abilities and other Warlock numbers have changed dozens of times before we posted them live to you guys, and usually before it even makes it to the Council, because we find all kinds of wrong things on our own. 5 becomes 10 or Will becomes Reflex or Fortification becomes PRR; often the abilities are very similar looking overall but the details need to honed in. That iteration doesn't stop just because you guys have seen them. The process continues, only hopefully it's faster because there are many players looking at things. We want the best shot at every opportunity. The only reason iteration dramatically slows eventually is because a feature is actually on live and players have made characters with those features, and we actually don't like to mess with existing characters.

We are human, and make mistakes, and sometimes they are obvious mistakes. Negative Energy was a terrible, awful idea (of mine), and was one of the abilities that came in very late to the design, replacing another (worse) enhancement. In some ideal, time-filled world we'd have more time to vet these before showing them to you. Yet nearly all feedback from players has been "show sooner, you can fix it after that". This is the route we've taken right now.


After we've built it.

[alancarp]

Quote Originally Posted by Vargouille:
"How much more should a 28 have over 20?"
...


It's a good question. I dont have a nice clean answer for you, but I'm trying to demonstrate what I think is an inevitable wall you'll run into.

These are pretty soft numbers, but having done many many ETRs on multiple platforms, my gut tells me that a well-built level 28 melee with destinies probably does 3-4 times (closer to 4) the damage of the same lvl 20 melee without destinies. For a sorc, the number is probably more like twice as much damage, mostly due to the ED abilities they gain like Energy Burst, Ruin, and Hellball: their spell damage doesn't go up tremendously, and it certainly doesnt double. Warlocks wont have the sp pool to fuel these ED abilities like Hellball/Ruin (I think), and I don't get the impression that the devs want their epic viability to be exclusively contingent on ED abilities like eburst anyway.
...

Does that make sense? It's not a new problem, it's one that casters have dealt with for a long time ...

I apologize for this being more-or-less off-topic, but when I read this, I was tempted to scream 'Yes! That's also the problem with things like Cleric Turn Undead!' At Levels 18-20, it's still effective, though once you advance to Level 28, its capabilities advance only minimally while all the undead beasties about you have advanced their turn dice significantly more. Yes, it's a different thing, but Exalted Angel utterly ignores Turn Undead, so epic clerics pretty much have all they will get from levels 20+; ergo they effectively lose the ability via attrition. Without a direct solution here for Warlocks (whether via a modified ED or something), that's kinda what I think some may be fearing.

[losian2]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.


I think *some* ability or portion of damage being untyped would be especially cool, to be honest. There's something interesting about an ability just doing no-type damage.

[John_Rove]

What does poison damage scale with? Potency items only? Aren't you guaranteed to be around -50 spellpower from gear at cap using poison compared to force? And -10% crit chance?

Poison Damage is considered in the same area as Physical/Untyped Damage. Therefore, it is boosted by Force Spellpower.

[John_Rove]

So is magical piercing damage still subject to piercing DR? Also what boosts magical physical damage? Actually what spellpower boosts poison damage?

Honestly Warlocks have to deal with ALOT of damage types, which is on one hand FANTASTIC as it makes them incredibly versatile but at the same time it means their limited to Universal Spellpower (especially since thats what their caster tree grants) which not only has far less sources item wise (and is always behind the same at level of specific elements), it also doesn't have a skill backing it up.



Magical Pierce Damage is not Subject to Any DR (except Druid Splinterbolt Spell), is boosted by Force Spell Power (as is poison) and therefore also by Spellcraft.

[HastyPudding]

Poison Damage is considered in the same area as Physical/Untyped Damage. Therefore, it is boosted by Force Spellpower.


Magical Pierce Damage is not Subject to Any DR (except Druid Splinterbolt Spell), is boosted by Force Spell Power (as is poison) and therefore also by Spellcraft.

Where do you get this information from? As far as I can tell, we've never had an actual poison 'damage' spell or magic attack to base off of any spellpower. If anything, it's probably based off of plain universal/potency, like some of the other abilities in the warlock trees.

[Ambitious]

My two cents:


I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
While Souleater and Enlightened Spirit have means to actually heal themselves, Tainted Scholars have only this ability. And pls don't say Healscroll and Cocoon, because that is no way to heal in EE, when you have mobs chasing you. So pls make Stanch meaningful.
I see the problem with the initial design, when someone just splashes in a few lvl of warlock, and has a huge hp pool. But if you are a pure lock, even with all hp giving pastlifes and full endgame gear, you are unlikely to get much more than 1k hp at lvl 28. The avarage guy will be probably more around 600-800hp. So I would strongly recommend to add the actual warlock classlevels into the equation. Something like classlevel*4*maxhp/100. So a lvl 20 lock can get up to 80%, and the FOTM build with only 3 levels of lock would get 12%, which is still alot, if you are a barb or pala/fighter in defensive stance. Make the cost of this 2% and I think it should balance out.
Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
As someone already pointed out, the mobs that are immune to force, are immune to poison as well. This makes that shape without any use.
Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
This change confused alot of people here. Why was it made? Is there a benefit for the players, that it is now magical piercing damage? To me, it reads more like it is less effective and might be resisted by damage reduction buffs of mobs (necromancers and drow priestesses for example).
Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.
At first glimpse I think the costs might be a bit high, considering how slowly you gain stacks. But I will come back and report, once the locks are on Lamannia.

[John_Rove]

Where do you get this information from? As far as I can tell, we've never had an actual poison 'damage' spell or magic attack to base off of any spellpower. If anything, it's probably based off of plain universal/potency, like some of the other abilities in the warlock trees.

Creeping Doom From Druid and Insidious spores from Primal Avatar both deal poison damage.

[FestusHood]

There aren't many things that resist force damage, but you should make sure that those things don't also resist the available alternatives.

[PermaBanned]

Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
From potentially too much, to not enough. Also, not generally a fan of cocain effects where the more you use them, the more you need to use them; and with every use the consequences increase while the benefits decrease. On the plus side: this change frees up a spot on the hot bar.


Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)Doesn't this change increase the number of mobs resistant/immune to our damage dealt? And specifically, what Spellpower & Skill (ie Spellcraft?) effect Poison damage?


Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.I'd love to know what feedback/testing led to this change, and what the design goal/intention/benefit is of doing away with Untyped.


Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.Will have to just see how this plays out with generating vs using Depravity.

[btolson]

Poison Damage is considered in the same area as Physical/Untyped Damage. Therefore, it is boosted by Force Spellpower.

After doing some bit of testing on my L16 druid, I don't think Creeping Doom is affected by any kind of spellpower except Metamagic.

First I tested its damage naked, mostly seeing numbers in the 50's-70's range (max 83).

Then I tested it with empower on (so +75 spell power compared to naked), mostly seeing numbers in the 80's-90's (max 112).

Then I tested it with empower off, and using a +4 impulse +78 item (so +90 total impulse power compared to naked), again mostly seeing numbers in the 50's-70's range (max 88). Very sure it does not scale with impulse/force.

Then I tested it with empower off, and using a +4 potency +48 item (so +60 total universal power compared to naked), still seeing numbers mostly in the 50's-70's range (max 86). Feel pretty certain it does not scale with potency either.


I also noted infrequent crits with the spell (presumably off the 5% from magical training), but always for the same damage as non-crits. Either the victim made its save every time I critted, or this spell has +0% crit damage instead of +100%.


In any event, if Unholy Blast/TBD works the same as Creeping Doom, then it won't be affected by much and may not be able to crit for extra damage.


EDIT: ah, I'm not the only one that's noticed this https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/457722-Creeping-Doom?s=

[CelticTrojan]

Hi Vargouille,
Many thanks for this preview and feedback opportunity. I really like the ways you have decided to implement Warlock. Definitely a future purchase for me.
Having said that I do have some concerns with the recent changes you made :

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.

Unholy Blast (name pending) changing to Poison and Penetrating Blast to pierce.

I know you have a definite aim in mind for all aspects of this tree, however in this case I am not able to see what you intend.
As the blast is normally Force, you can get a spellpower improvement of nearly 400% for the base damage according to a build elsewhere.
By changing to Poison which does not have a specific boost (that I am aware), you are back to universal spell power which is about a third less ?
Why would someone wish to change from force which is usable on most mobs to poison which constructs and undead ignore and reduced damage?
What am I missing here? aside from some multiclass build with assassin I don't see a reason to use it.

Now if it was Bane damage this would be useful as it would allow the blast to affect the few mobs force does not , and the decrease in overall damage is an
acceptable trade off for this ability. And you could still keep the original name.

Likewise with Pierce, I see you stated later that it was Magical Pierce like the Magical Slashing from blade barrier. Does this mean that like untyped in
BB Force spellpower will boost it? If so then damage wise it will at least be the same, however I see no reason to do Pierce damage? Rakshasas perhaps? (or similar)
Maybe if you added to this that the Magical Piercing blast also reduced mob Spell Resistance that would be appropriate and would also be a very thematic way to
give needed spell penetration to the class for its other spells? Just a thought.

On a final note, what will the range of the blast be? Is it extended? Or can it be extended? The increased range blast (Spear?) was always my first one in PnP and very useful for open area's.
I would hope that this version would be similarly useful and not something I put away and use a bow instead.

Your respectfully,

CelticTrojan

[Silverleafeon]

At best, this is an argument for us delaying sharing designs with the public. We change the numbers all the time. Enhancement abilities and other Warlock numbers have changed dozens of times before we posted them live to you guys, and usually before it even makes it to the Council, because we find all kinds of wrong things on our own. 5 becomes 10 or Will becomes Reflex or Fortification becomes PRR; often the abilities are very similar looking overall but the details need to honed in. That iteration doesn't stop just because you guys have seen them. The process continues, only hopefully it's faster because there are many players looking at things. We want the best shot at every opportunity. The only reason iteration dramatically slows eventually is because a feature is actually on live and players have made characters with those features, and we actually don't like to mess with existing characters.

We are human, and make mistakes, and sometimes they are obvious mistakes. Negative Energy was a terrible, awful idea (of mine), and was one of the abilities that came in very late to the design, replacing another (worse) enhancement. In some ideal, time-filled world we'd have more time to vet these before showing them to you. Yet nearly all feedback from players has been "show sooner, you can fix it after that". This is the route we've taken right now.

Stop communicating and you will really hear an uproar...imho...keep up the current perspective!

Ever watched an animator work?
Know you are in good company, nuff said.

http://idrawgirls.com/tutorials/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/rapunzel-disney-face-expression-drawing.jpg

Are these drawings finished?
No, they are work in progress.
Artist do thus all the time, refining as they go.
Yet no one question their value.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Stop communicating and you will really hear an uproar...imho...keep up the current perspective!

Ever watched an animator work?
Know you are in good company, nuff said.

[img]

Are these drawings finished?
No, they are work in progress.
Artist do thus all the time, refining as they go.
Yet no one question their value.

Well Spoken Silverleafeon.

One suggestion for future - maybe post these in Lamannia forums?

[Angelic-council]

I like the design.. but, I'm little bit disappointed. I understand that turbine has limited time and limited resources. Most of the things are can't be changed. Only minor changes.. I understand. But.. deep down inside my heart.. I was really, really hoping that tainted scholar could use "Forbidden spell". Sort of like... an AoE eldritch tempest move, which based on a will save. Wide AoE stun for a very short time, yet, giving you the opportunity to escape from the critical situation.

SLA: Release arcana (Core 5): forbidden art of sealing. It was mainly used by arcane gods, sealing their most hated enemies for the eternity. But.. this art was long lost and nearly forgotten. Nobody has ever seen its true potential. This ability requires intensive focus (you have to build dep).
- effect: Caster centered wide AoE stun: DC 12 + caster level + charisma modifier or stunned for 2 - 3 seconds (will save negate the effect). Deal half of your eldritch blast damage to all enemies. 2 minutes CD.

[Ambitious]

Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
While Souleater and Enlightened Spirit have means to actually heal themselves, Tainted Scholars have only this ability. And pls don't say Healscroll and Cocoon, because that is no way to heal in EE, when you have mobs chasing you. So pls make Stanch meaningful.
I see the problem with the initial design, when someone just splashes in a few lvl of warlock, and has a huge hp pool. But if you are a pure lock, even with all hp giving pastlifes and full endgame gear, you are unlikely to get much more than 1k hp at lvl 28. The avarage guy will be probably more around 600-800hp. So I would strongly recommend to add the actual warlock classlevels into the equation. Something like classlevel*4*maxhp/100. So a lvl 20 lock can get up to 80%, and the FOTM build with only 3 levels of lock would get 12%, which is still alot, if you are a barb or pala/fighter in defensive stance. Make the cost of this 2% and I think it should balance out.


I got another/additional idea for stanch:

I am not a huge fan of increased debuffs for using an ability. As PermaBanned put it nicely: cocaine effects. Since the duration for the temporary hitpoints is 1 minute, make the cooldown of this ability 1 minute as well. Make the penalty 10%-20%, that lasts only as long as the cooldown of this ability. So they have the means for an 'emergency heal', but have to be really careful for one minute.

[GeoffWatson]

What does poison damage scale with? Potency items only? Aren't you guaranteed to be around -50 spellpower from gear at cap using poison compared to force? And -10% crit chance?

Nothing.
Poison spell damage is bugged and doesn't scale with anything, not even potency (as potency is implemented as each of the other spell powers.)

Geoff.

[Lanadazia]

Negative Energy was a terrible choice. Yet nearly all feedback from players has been "show sooner, you can fix it after that". This is the route we've taken right now.


well, fluff-wise i think fluff-wise it'd be a good choice, but with friendly-undead-healing in the way it seems a little odd. like this isn't intended to be a healing skill, but an offensive one, right?
i think it would be good if we had options to chose from, what kind of damage the blast will become, or make this a toggle-thing, that you can switch different damage types on and off

also i really appreciate this early state of construction release. i love seeing content evolving, reading different opinions and be able to take part in the process.
this is something pretty much no game allows its community and i think its awesome and connects the people to the game really well :)



There aren't many things that resist force damage, but you should make sure that those things don't also resist the available alternatives.

hence a toggle-thing would be cool, so you may switch between damage-types.
i think its ok if mobs have resistances vs your blast. untyped damage is pretty strong and i think this type of damage should be available only in some exclusive spells/builds etc.
the question is, if its a good idea to 'upgrade' from force to something else since force is a damage type itself, that is hardly resisted.

are there actual poison damage immunities/resistances? undead maybe or constructs?
if so i think this order is, how one should prefer their damage types:

untyped > force > poison

[FuryFlash]

Negative Energy was a terrible choice. Half the questions about it involved asking if it healed friendly undead. That was not intended and almost certainly wouldn't have worked (without remaking everything that had been started and changing the designs around it), so it would have been incredibly confusing with little benefit.

Precisely the opposite, which is why it needed to change. No actual testing needed to be involved once it was pointed out. That would also be a wildly different ability than what was intended, and this is exactly the right time to fix errors like that.

Although I am sad to hear that this ability will no longer be negative energy, if it wasn't going to heal undead anyway, it doesn't matter. In terms of this current plan for poison damage, why poison? I would personally always use force over poison. Will this come with an additional effect? Since it becomes obsolete at tier 4 when you get Penetrating Blast, why even have it in there at all? I mean, I understood the negative energy when I thought it would heal undead, because that gave it cool multiclass potential. But now, it becomes an unnecessary requirement for an ability that almost everyone wants.

Maybe this ability should just be changed to something completely new and different than the other Eldritch Essences? Maybe something along the lines of Faltering Blast for more crowd control? I only say this because I don't understand the current use of this ability. Maybe I am missing something? Thanks in advance.

[HatsuharuZ]

It occurs to me that the few enemies who resist Force damage are all constructs of some kind. So, how about a toggle that turns EB damage into the same damage type as "Deconstruct" and similar spells?

On another note, I'm a bit concerned about how "Depravity" is going to be displayed. The buff bar on the top of the screen tends to be a bit crowded, and the buff icons like to move around. Please make it so that "Depravity" is displayed as a counter on the hotbar abilities that require "Depravity" to function, if you haven't already.

[Artagon]

On another note, I'm a bit concerned about how "Depravity" is going to be displayed. The buff bar on the top of the screen tends to be a bit crowded, and the buff icons like to move around. Please make it so that "Depravity" is displayed as a counter on the hotbar abilities that require "Depravity" to function, if you haven't already.

Good feedback. I second this request.

As for different damage types than Poison, what about an alignment type, similar to the alignment spells that clerics get? Perhaps make it a multi-selector that allows choice between chaotic or Lawful based upon your alignment (neutral could pick either)? I can't think of too many creatures that are specifically vulnerable to these damage types (unlike good/light), so those might be strong contenders.

[Grace_ana]

I, too, am not understanding the logic behind changing penetrating blast. I was definitely planning on taking it for untyped, but I don't understand the benefits to pierce. Untyped has no resistance; pierce does; therefore untyped is far more valuable. Unless you are thinking IC: Pierce will apply? Then the crits would be nice, but it's also a feat tax. I'm not really convinced that would be an improvement. I'd really like to know the thinking on this.

[HastyPudding]

I, too, am not understanding the logic behind changing penetrating blast. I was definitely planning on taking it for untyped, but I don't understand the benefits to pierce. Untyped has no resistance; pierce does; therefore untyped is far more valuable. Unless you are thinking IC: Pierce will apply? Then the crits would be nice, but it's also a feat tax. I'm not really convinced that would be an improvement. I'd really like to know the thinking on this.

I doubt IC: piercing will work with eldritch blasts. If anything, it works like magic damage; like blade barrier has slashing damage and meteor swarm has bludgeoning damage. Both of those spells are made stronger via force/impulse spellpower. Penetrating blast will be no different.

I liked the untyped damage better, but at least this gives another damage option to warlocks. In all honesty, no warlock in their right mind would use any other eldritch essence other than penetrating blast if it was still untyped damage. That's probably one reason why they changed it: it completely overshadowed every other essence.

[Grace_ana]

I doubt IC: piercing will work with eldritch blasts. If anything, it works like magic damage; like blade barrier has slashing damage and meteor swarm has bludgeoning damage. Both of those spells are made stronger via force/impulse spellpower. Penetrating blast will be no different.

I liked the untyped damage better, but at least this gives another damage option to warlocks. In all honesty, no warlock in their right mind would use any other eldritch essence other than penetrating blast if it was still untyped damage. That's probably one reason why they changed it: it completely overshadowed every other essence.

I wouldn't think IC would work with it either, but I couldn't think of any possible reason to change it otherwise. I can think of reasons to not take that essence at times. Untyped only benefits from universal spellpower, IIRC, so if you have much more of another type of spellpower and aren't fighting something with resistance to it, that other essence will be more useful.

All it really does, it seems to me, is reduce my need to go as far into this tree, which IMO is bad planning. It's better to have tough choices on where to spend AP and have more things that I want than I have AP than the other way around.

[Steelstar]

I'd love to know what feedback/testing led to this change, and what the design goal/intention/benefit is of doing away with Untyped.


The drive behind the change came from the Content side of the team, primarily myself. In the current game, there are definitely sources of Untyped/Bane damage; however, most of them (especially in Heroic) are either behind cooldowns (Mutilate), require Spell Points, or both (Disintegrate, Ruin). Untyped/Bane damage is not resisted or reduced by any sources in-game, and never can be; that's the entire point of that damage type.

Eldritch Blast is free and fast damage already, and while we want Warlocks to be equipped to handle all kinds of foes, it shouldn't be through a single enhancement that makes them do damage that no enemy, inanimate object, or Raid Boss can ever resist or reduce. It makes that ability incredibly powerful (and would be considered "mandatory" in every Warlock build), and creates balance concerns across all existing and future content.

[slarden]

The drive behind the change came from the Content side of the team, primarily myself. In the current game, there are definitely sources of Untyped/Bane damage; however, most of them (especially in Heroic) are either behind cooldowns (Mutilate), require Spell Points, or both (Disintegrate, Ruin). Untyped/Bane damage is not resisted or reduced by any sources in-game, and never can be; that's the entire point of that damage type.

Eldritch Blast is free and fast damage already, and while we want Warlocks to be equipped to handle all kinds of foes, it shouldn't be through a single enhancement that makes them do damage that no enemy, inanimate object, or Raid Boss can ever resist or reduce. It makes that ability incredibly powerful (and would be considered "mandatory" in every Warlock build), and creates balance concerns across all existing and future content.

Seems reasonable to me. It's better to be cautious on such things.

[Lanadazia]

The drive behind the change came from the Content side of the team, primarily myself. In the current game, there are definitely sources of Untyped/Bane damage; however, most of them (especially in Heroic) are either behind cooldowns (Mutilate), require Spell Points, or both (Disintegrate, Ruin). Untyped/Bane damage is not resisted or reduced by any sources in-game, and never can be; that's the entire point of that damage type.

Eldritch Blast is free and fast damage already, and while we want Warlocks to be equipped to handle all kinds of foes, it shouldn't be through a single enhancement that makes them do damage that no enemy, inanimate object, or Raid Boss can ever resist or reduce. It makes that ability incredibly powerful (and would be considered "mandatory" in every Warlock build), and creates balance concerns across all existing and future content.

agreed. untyped damage is very powerful indeed, and it never should be free. like ruin is a very powerful tool, but with its high cooldown and high sp cost its limited (aka balanced)
if i got this correctly, the warlock is supposed to do these eldritch blasts all the time, being a big part of his damage-output. let that big part get untyped damage would be broken

[Sebastrd]

The drive behind the change came from the Content side of the team, primarily myself. In the current game, there are definitely sources of Untyped/Bane damage; however, most of them (especially in Heroic) are either behind cooldowns (Mutilate), require Spell Points, or both (Disintegrate, Ruin). Untyped/Bane damage is not resisted or reduced by any sources in-game, and never can be; that's the entire point of that damage type.

Eldritch Blast is free and fast damage already, and while we want Warlocks to be equipped to handle all kinds of foes, it shouldn't be through a single enhancement that makes them do damage that no enemy, inanimate object, or Raid Boss can ever resist or reduce. It makes that ability incredibly powerful (and would be considered "mandatory" in every Warlock build), and creates balance concerns across all existing and future content.

Even the switch to piercing damage, Penetrating Blast will be mandatory for every Warlock build. It sounds like the driving force behind the EB damage type is basically the few bosses in game that have damage shields that are bypassed by untyped damage (Aurgloroasa, Xy'zzy, etc.) The problem is that you're left choosing between making Eldritch Blast bypass such shields by default or making Eldritch Blast "just another spell".

Eldritch Blast is THE key class feature of Warlock. In my opinion, adding elemental damage types, reflex saves, spell resistance, etc., to water it down are all bad ideas. Trying to balance Eldritch Blast like a spell is the wrong approach. Balance Eldritch Blast like exactly what it replaces - basic attacks. Figure out the DPS you're shooting for, and scale Eldritch Blast with spell power to keep it in that range from level 1-30, just like you adjust the way melee abilities scale with melee power and the way ranged abilities scale with ranged power.

[Steelstar]

Even the switch to piercing damage, Penetrating Blast will be mandatory for every Warlock build. It sounds like the driving force behind the EB damage type is basically the few bosses in game that have damage shields that are bypassed by untyped damage (Aurgloroasa, Xy'zzy, etc.) The problem is that you're left choosing between making Eldritch Blast bypass such shields by default or making Eldritch Blast "just another spell".

Eldritch Blast is THE key class feature of Warlock. In my opinion, adding elemental damage types, reflex saves, spell resistance, etc., to water it down are all bad ideas. Trying to balance Eldritch Blast like a spell is the wrong approach. Balance Eldritch Blast like exactly what it replaces - basic attacks. Figure out the DPS you're shooting for, and scale Eldritch Blast with spell power to keep it in that range from level 1-30, just like you adjust the way melee abilities scale with melee power and the way ranged abilities scale with ranged power.

That's a bit like saying "Weapons are THE key class feature (at least for damage) of Fighters. All weapons wielded by Fighters should do Bludgeon, Piercing, AND Slashing damage, always bypass DR, and always bypass PRR".

We aren't trying to balance it like just another spell; we're trying to balance it like the primary attacks (AND primary spells) of every other class, which are all resisted by SOMEthing, even if they're able to switch to another spell or weapon to counter that. Things like PRR, MRR, DR, Energy Resistance, and Protection from Energy apply to every other class' primary attacks; Untyped Spell damage is not reduced by any of those.

[LordTigerDawn]

That's a bit like saying "Weapons are THE key class feature (at least for damage) of Fighters. All weapons wielded by Fighters should do Bludgeon, Piercing, AND Slashing damage, always bypass DR, and always bypass PRR".

We aren't trying to balance it like just another spell; we're trying to balance it like the primary attacks (AND primary spells) of every other class, which are all resisted by SOMEthing, even if they're able to switch to another spell or weapon to counter that. Things like PRR, MRR, DR, Energy Resistance, and Protection from Energy apply to every other class' primary attacks; Untyped Spell damage is not reduced by any of those.

Amen, Steelstar.

[onny]

The only real question I would be asking on the damage type is between Force, Poison and Piercing is there any monster that is 100% immune to all three. And I think that with piercing in there its a safe bet the answer is no. The only real concern I would have is that the way its setup you would be forced to splash Tainted Scholar since none of the other trees offer the ability to change damage type and there definitely are monsters that are 100% immune to force damage. Maybe put some stand alone in teir 4/5 of the other trees to give options for those that don't want to splash scholar.

[Mahatu]

I wanted to start out saying that I am really liking the looks of all the trees so far, and I think we will be getting some very interesting builds when this comes out.

The depravity mechanic looks very interesting. As a couple others have brought up, there may be some trouble with how strict the generation of stacks is and how many abilities make use of the mechanic. I think this could be helped by giving other means of generating stacks in later cores. Some ideas are on spell crit, on landing a debuff or control spell, when an enemy dies within a certain period of time after being damaged/debuffed, or on dealing damage to a cc’ed target. If such an additonal means of stack generation was added, it could be on a separate cooldown, much like how spirit generation in primal avatar is.

I would also like to jump on and add that I think staunch giving 50% and 2% seems pretty balanced to me.

The capstone in this tree looks really awesome! I am certainly going to be taking this one =)

I know that it was mentioned that warlocks would be getting the magical training feat in one way or another, but I don’t see it as part of the planar power enhancement. Will warlocks get it at level 1 like other casters?

As others have been saying, I am not sure that “unholy” blast doing poison damage really helps the situation. What if it acctually did unholy damage? That would also give it some very good synergy with the enlightened spirit tree, as well as a couple different destinies.

Stunning blast looks like a really awesome enhancment, but the DC will absolutely need to be able to be hightened, or scale with warlock level. The proposed DC of 11 + Cha mod + enchantment school modifiers will just not be enough in high end content.

I like the looks of eldritch ball. Will the spellpower scaling of this ability be more like the single target eldritch blasts? What will the cooldown on this ability be? I think that giving it a short cooldown, or even no cooldown, could make for interesting gameplay choices. As it costs depravity and that is a very rate limited resource, having a short cooldown would give a warlock the choice to either use it infrequently and have depravity for other abilities, or burn through large amounts of depravity all at once for high damage, but be left without for a time as it builds back up.

On the subject of eldritch blast damage scaling into epics, I think that it will suffer from the problem that most spells do in epics: there just aren’t all that many ways to raise spell damage in epics. Melee and range characters have tons of options. Increasing their primary damage stat, plenty of + damage effects, many on hit/crit/vorp effects, attack speed bonuses, doublestrike/shot, melee/ranged power, bonus weapon dice, and several ways to increase both the critical threat range and damage multiplier of weapons.

Spell casting characters on the other hand have small increases in spellpower, small amounts of crit chance, and very rare instances of increased max caster level. Oh, and the lantern ring. Other than that, they really don’t have much of anything.

I think there are a few ideas that could help the situation. Give +1 caster level and max caster level to all spellcasting classes every 2 epic levels (give warlocks +1d6 eldritch blast damage at these levels as well). Give damage spells bonus base damage equal to their primary casting stat that scales with spell power (if this option is taken, it really should only apply once to multi-hit spells like magic missile or scorching ray). Add more items that add on hit effects for spells. Add items that increase the caster level and maximum caster level of spells, or items that increase spell critical damage.

Any combination of these sorts of things (and probably many others that I haven’t thought of) could help the situation for casters. I think the main point is that casters need more than just a couple of ways to scale the power of their spells

I would also like to add that while epic spells can be powerful and a lot of fun, they really aren’t a great soloution to caster’s weaker damage in epics. Epic spells should be powerful, momentous abilities that are used infrequiently, not the main source of a caster’s damage. The spells that we gained in heroic levels should be able to serve us in epics. At least that is how I feel on the subject.

Anyways, I am very excited by what I see here and can’t wait to try warlocks out when they hit Lamannia!

[Augon]

All weapons wielded by Fighters should do Bludgeon, Piercing, AND Slashing damage, always bypass DR, and always bypass PRR.

NOW YOUR TALKIN!

So, when does my fighter get this enhancement?? Afterall I have a quote from a developer saying this is so, so I expect it in the next update. And don't you dare nerf it!

[Grace_ana]

That's a bit like saying "Weapons are THE key class feature (at least for damage) of Fighters. All weapons wielded by Fighters should do Bludgeon, Piercing, AND Slashing damage, always bypass DR, and always bypass PRR".

We aren't trying to balance it like just another spell; we're trying to balance it like the primary attacks (AND primary spells) of every other class, which are all resisted by SOMEthing, even if they're able to switch to another spell or weapon to counter that. Things like PRR, MRR, DR, Energy Resistance, and Protection from Energy apply to every other class' primary attacks; Untyped Spell damage is not reduced by any of those.

It was suggested by someone (sorry, can't search through everything to find who) that each pact be given two options instead of one to add on to the blasts. Acid and light was an example instead of just acid. You would still only have one of them active at a time, much like EK. I still think that would be a good option to go along with what you are saying above. If a warlock comes up against something that is immune or resistant to several of their damage types, it would be nice to be able to switch to a different pact add-on. I know the essences are supposed to do this, but it would indeed be unfun to lose two-thirds of your damage options (and therefore damage) just because. Melee can switch to a more useful weapon, casters aren't limited to only casting certain damage types. Warlock shouldn't lose out on flexibility.

[HatsuharuZ]

Here is a crazy idea... make "Unholy Blast" a toggle that changes the pact-based damage to... something else. I know for a fact that there are some enemies that are healed by fire or acid.

[Sebastrd]

That's a bit like saying "Weapons are THE key class feature (at least for damage) of Fighters. All weapons wielded by Fighters should do Bludgeon, Piercing, AND Slashing damage, always bypass DR, and always bypass PRR".

We aren't trying to balance it like just another spell; we're trying to balance it like the primary attacks (AND primary spells) of every other class, which are all resisted by SOMEthing, even if they're able to switch to another spell or weapon to counter that. Things like PRR, MRR, DR, Energy Resistance, and Protection from Energy apply to every other class' primary attacks; Untyped Spell damage is not reduced by any of those.

Fair enough. That's the part I wasn't getting, and I completely see your point. However, keep in mind that Warlocks do not have the luxury of "switch to another spell or weapon". They only get one.

Penetrating Blast is going to be required for every Warlock. Can we just make Eldritch Blast piercing by default? That avoids the issue with Helmed Horrors, and apparently with bypassing every resistance in the game, as well. A Warlock's pact damage - especially if subject to a save - will be unreliable. You guys went crazy with giving mobs Evasion a while back, to the point that it doesn't even make sense on a lot of mobs (Vine Stalkers and Magefire Cannons? Seriously?). For most Warlocks, Eldritch Blast will be their sole source of damage, so it needs to be reliable.

[Unsmitten]

That's a bit like saying "Weapons are THE key class feature (at least for damage) of Fighters. All weapons wielded by Fighters should do Bludgeon, Piercing, AND Slashing damage, always bypass DR, and always bypass PRR".

We aren't trying to balance it like just another spell; we're trying to balance it like the primary attacks (AND primary spells) of every other class, which are all resisted by SOMEthing, even if they're able to switch to another spell or weapon to counter that. Things like PRR, MRR, DR, Energy Resistance, and Protection from Energy apply to every other class' primary attacks; Untyped Spell damage is not reduced by any of those.

Perhaps you forgot about the Arcane Archer cores(bypass Bludgeon, Piercing, and Slashing damage or any alignment). Maybe add both a physical and a magic damage toggle to each of the trees. Tainted Scholar has poison and piercing, give Souleater negative and Slashing, and give Enlightened Spirit fire and bludgeoning.

Or, perhaps you could remove the damage type toggles from the enhancement trees and grant them as feats that warlocks get to pick from based on class level. At levels 5, 10, 15 and 20 grant a damage type toggle including acid, bludgeoning, cold, electric, fire, light, piercing, negative, slashing and sonic.

Or grant the material type/alignment on equipped mainhand weapon to the EB.

Just throwing some ideas out there(even though they are too late to have any impact).


Having 3 options for blast damage types is good, but there will always be situations where 3 is not enough. For example, a champion golem(any type) that has the piercing immunity buff(90% reduced damage from piercing). This champion golem would be immune to poison(unholy blast), take only 10% damage from piercing(penetrating blast) and 50% from force(regular eldritch blast). While uncommon, this sort of occurrence IS common enough to be a serious annoyance.

[Requiro]

Fair enough. That's the part I wasn't getting, and I completely see your point. However, keep in mind that Warlocks do not have the luxury of "switch to another spell or weapon". They only get one. (...)

Excellent argument.

But maybe other solution?
Force Type by Default on level 1 Warlock.
And on level 4 Warlock, depends on Pact, Bludgeon, Piercing, OR Slashing Eldritch Essence Stance Feat? OP?

[CelticTrojan]

Hi,
Not sure if this was already covered somewhere, but if the Blast is force damage and spell like, does Shield or Nightshield block it like they do for magic missile?

I hope not, it will be something to test right away on Lammania.

CelticTrojan

[HastyPudding]

Hi,
Not sure if this was already covered somewhere, but if the Blast is force damage and spell like, does Shield or Nightshield block it like they do for magic missile?

I hope not, it will be something to test right away on Lammania.

CelticTrojan

Shield and Nightshield block magic missiles, force missiles, and chain missiles.

Eldritch Blast is not magic missiles, force missiles, or chain missiles.

Therefore Shield and Nightshield does not block Eldritch Blast.

[RTFM]

"Unholy Blast" (name TBD): Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast base damage is now Poison instead of Force.


Really? Unholy blast is POISON? Just call it "Poison blast"!

What is the big "no no" about having it "Evil Damage" just like PnP?

[kain741]

One thing I'm missing in here is how a pure DC caster will fit into the equation at endgame. With warlock's primary sphere being primal to receive a bump to it's caster level, it is going to be hampered by the lack of charisma in the sphere. There are enough spells in their spellbook that will require a spell penetration check that make the sphere important, but from the current plan I don't see how a DC caster could overcome the effective -3 DCs relative to a Wizard in Magister or a Favvy in Exalted. Is there some other plan in the works that will buff the caster's DC making it relevant to even consider a pure DC type caster or is this destined to be shiardi type caster only?

[Drakos]

Eldritch Blast is free and fast damage already, and while we want Warlocks to be equipped to handle all kinds of foes, it shouldn't be through a single enhancement that makes them do damage that no enemy, inanimate object, or Raid Boss can ever resist or reduce. It makes that ability incredibly powerful (and would be considered "mandatory" in every Warlock build), and creates balance concerns across all existing and future content.
I see your logic, but I can't agree with it. Yes, untyped EB would be very powerful, but remember this is supposed to be their primary ability, this was the reason for no direct damage spells. It should be powerful, that's the trade-off of being a one-trick pony. By making it a resistible damage type, you literally cripple the class vs. certain content. So the pendulum has swung from too powerful to to weak.

[Drakos]

The only real question I would be asking on the damage type is between Force, Poison and Piercing is there any monster that is 100% immune to all three. And I think that with piercing in there its a safe bet the answer is no. The only real concern I would have is that the way its setup you would be forced to splash Tainted Scholar since none of the other trees offer the ability to change damage type and there definitely are monsters that are 100% immune to force damage. Maybe put some stand alone in teir 4/5 of the other trees to give options for those that don't want to splash scholar.
Worse, there is at least one monster healed by force.

[Drakos]

Really? Unholy blast is POISON? Just call it "Poison blast"!

What is the big "no no" about having it "Evil Damage" just like PnP?
It's not "evil" damage in PnP, its Eldritch damage, which is not resisted by anything except SR.

[Ambitious]

The drive behind the change came from the Content side of the team, primarily myself. In the current game, there are definitely sources of Untyped/Bane damage; however, most of them (especially in Heroic) are either behind cooldowns (Mutilate), require Spell Points, or both (Disintegrate, Ruin). Untyped/Bane damage is not resisted or reduced by any sources in-game, and never can be; that's the entire point of that damage type.

Eldritch Blast is free and fast damage already, and while we want Warlocks to be equipped to handle all kinds of foes, it shouldn't be through a single enhancement that makes them do damage that no enemy, inanimate object, or Raid Boss can ever resist or reduce. It makes that ability incredibly powerful (and would be considered "mandatory" in every Warlock build), and creates balance concerns across all existing and future content.

I hear you, and I have to agree with what you say. However, there is still the issue with 'unholy blast'. Firstly people have been reporting that poison damage doesn't seem to scale with any kind of spellpower (which I can neither verify nor falsify) but secondly and most importantly: Many people pointed out that the mobs that are resistant/ immune to force damage are constructs. So they will be immune to poison damage as well, making that damage type undesirable. A good alternative would be rust damage. Or make the first tier an essence that debuffs mobs, like faltering blast.

[PermaBanned]

The drive behind the change came from the Content side of the team, primarily myself. In the current game, there are definitely sources of Untyped/Bane damage; however, most of them (especially in Heroic) are either behind cooldowns (Mutilate), require Spell Points, or both (Disintegrate, Ruin). Untyped/Bane damage is not resisted or reduced by any sources in-game, and never can be; that's the entire point of that damage type.

Eldritch Blast is free and fast damage already, and while we want Warlocks to be equipped to handle all kinds of foes, it shouldn't be through a single enhancement that makes them do damage that no enemy, inanimate object, or Raid Boss can ever resist or reduce. It makes that ability incredibly powerful (and would be considered "mandatory" in every Warlock build), and creates balance concerns across all existing and future content.
Thank you for the plain answer. I'm not sure I agree with it, but I do appreciate it.

It sounds like the intention here is that there will always be at least some mobs/bosses resistant to the primary Blast damage and I just simply don't like that. The Blast damage is only as "fast and free" as a weapon users (actually less so, as weapon users have multiple speed upgrade options that Warlocks won't), and a weapon user can always equip a weapon of appropriate DR breaking properties - Warlocks won't have that option. Also, Piercing damage + Oozes = red alert in a hurry. The concern that if it were Untyped would make it a mandatory investment isn't fixed by this either; any Warlock that wants a non-Force option for Blast Damage will need this T4 regardless of how you type it as there simply is no other option.

[RTFM]

It's not "evil" damage in PnP, its Eldritch damage, which is not resisted by anything except SR.

in PnP yes Eldritch damage was the base.

But, you could go "dark" (or evil) and At 10th level, a Warlock could choose the damage of his Eldritch Blast to Unholy damage by reducing the damage it deals by 4d6 (a 10th level Warlock could opt to fire a 10d6 fire blast, 8d6 hellfire blast, or 6d6 unholy blast). That's what I am referring to.

Instead, this DDO enhancement "unholy blast" but its POISON damage! I mean call a cat a cat, call it "POISON Blast" or make "Unholy Blast" unholy or evil damage. This goes a lot more with lore (as Warlocks could choose this option to for eldritch blast to be unholy damage, or fire damage for that matter), there was no way to make it poison damage (correct me if I am wrong).

I guess it does not really matter because everything I have seen described Warlocks are so far from PnP with all the standard DDO Arcane spells cut and paste into the Warlock spell book, they are going to have a blue bar even! Should not even be called "Warlock", should be called "DDOlock" or some other new special DDO class!

[FallingIcicle]

Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)

How about "Noxious Blast?"

[PermaBanned]

That's a bit like saying "Weapons are THE key class feature (at least for damage) of Fighters. All weapons wielded by Fighters should do Bludgeon, Piercing, AND Slashing damage, always bypass DR, and always bypass PRR".To expand on a point from my previous posts: unlike Fighters, Warlocks only have one weapon. Where a Fighter can change out from a Bludgeoning to a Slashing weapon, and can use Enhancements, Destinies & Gear/Augments to obtain DR breaking - can the Warlock? No, the Warlock can not change out it's Blast, or add DR breaking properties of any sort beyond what's in the three trees - unless I'm missing something? Will Destiny & Harper (if a Warlock has the APs to spare) effects add/modify Blast damage for DR purposes?


We aren't trying to balance it like just another spell; we're trying to balance it like the primary attacks (AND primary spells) of every other class, which are all resisted by SOMEthing, even if they're able to switch to another spell or weapon to counter that.Exactly: that flexability to situationally switch weapons/spells is part of the balance, and it's a part where Warlocks come up short in. My Barbarian can have 2 TF weapons, both innately Metaline. One has a Meteor ruby, the other a Good ruby - what's the Warlock balance equivalent of this? Same character can swap from a Piercing weapon to a Slashing or Bludgeoning - what's the Warlock balance equivalent of this?


Things like PRR, MRR, DR, Energy Resistance, and Protection from Energy apply to every other class' primary attacks; Untyped Spell damage is not reduced by any of those.It's also not being delivered in the same quantity. Remember: it's only the primary Blast that gets type changed, and it's not like the Warlock's primary Blast is going to be delivering Sorc-like numbers. Warlock vs Savant: the dice are fewer and the Spellpower boosts are smaller. Now, I'm not saying Warlocks should do equivalent DPS to a Savant, just pointing our that theirs will be less, and that should be weighed in these balance concerns.

[Lanadazia]

That's a bit like saying "Weapons are THE key class feature (at least for damage) of Fighters. All weapons wielded by Fighters should do Bludgeon, Piercing, AND Slashing damage, always bypass DR, and always bypass PRR".

We aren't trying to balance it like just another spell; we're trying to balance it like the primary attacks (AND primary spells) of every other class, which are all resisted by SOMEthing, even if they're able to switch to another spell or weapon to counter that. Things like PRR, MRR, DR, Energy Resistance, and Protection from Energy apply to every other class' primary attacks; Untyped Spell damage is not reduced by any of those.


Fair enough. That's the part I wasn't getting, and I completely see your point. However, keep in mind that Warlocks do not have the luxury of "switch to another spell or weapon". They only get one.


that was exactly my idea, why there should be a toggle for the main-damage-type of the blast. since its tier2 its an option, so you're not forced to change your main damage type, but i would not like a 'take this and it will change permanently' sort of enhancement without the chance of changing it inside of a quest.
whether this should be a toggle ability that activates a damagetype if needed, or it should add another eldritch blast, just with a different setting (like hellball gives you 2 different versions of the spell)
the enhancement could just add a 2nd blast type to the list. ofc on the same cooldown!




We aren't trying to balance it like just another spell; we're trying to balance it like the primary attacks (AND primary spells) of every other class, which are all resisted by SOMEthing, even if they're able to switch to another spell or weapon to counter that.

you said earlier that this is going to be magical pierce damage, like magical slashing damage from bladebarrier.
magical slash/pierce is not affected by DR/PRR (i can't recall anything getting reduced damage from my bladebarriers)

so you just contradicted yourself, no?

[BananaHat]

Thank you for the clarification on not using untyped damage. If the blast was untyped, it would break the game due to it bypassing specific blocks not meant to be bypassed. Done.

As for the new poison blast essence... I can't think of a single situation where I'd want to use Poison damage over Force damage. What spellpower does poison even key off of? What I'd suggest is that you change it to:

Corrupted Blast (Eldritch Blast essence stance): Your eldritch blast now deals poison damage instead of force damage. Your eldritch blasts also have a 5% chance to cause a random disease as per the contagion spell (DC = 10 + half Warlock level + Charisma modifier).

Alternatively, you could make the disease a specific one dependent on your pact. Fey (shakes: dex damage), Fiend (demon fever: con damage or devil chills: str damage), and Great Old Ones (slimy doom: acid damage or cackle fever: wis damage)

What this would do would be to give this blast kind of an anti-life niche by providing random stat debuffs while blasting away. If you went pact specific, you could pick the diseases cued to the specific save that pact damage has so basically you are helping to debuff your secondary damage of sonic/fire/acid through harder saves. I know diseases aren't typically very powerful on mobs and they'll usually just end up with the damage from the first save, but that is kind of the point here. To beef up this essence by giving it a niche where it could possibly be desirable instead of just having it be a stepping stone to using faltering blast all the time and switching to penetrating blast as needed.

[nibel]

Really? Unholy blast is POISON? Just call it "Poison blast"!

That's what "name change TBD" means. It will NOT be called "Unholy Blast", but the devs didn't thought of a new name yet.


As for the new poison blast essence... I can't think of a single situation where I'd want to use Poison damage over Force damage. What spellpower does poison even key off of?

It was said earlier that Poison still keys off from Force Spell Power.

I agree that there is no reason at all to switch from Force to Poison if you want to avoid force-resistant monsters. Right now, only constructs (as a type) have any kind of Force Resistance, while Constructs, Undeads, Devils and Demons are immune to poison (We learn that fast running with the quiver of poison around).

So if you want to give out some utility to prevent locks to being a sitting duck against the few force-immune constructs around, Poison is not the solution. Rust is the obvious alternative, but then, Rust damage keys off from Repair Spell Power, and unless you are a Bladeforged, you probably did not invested anything on Repair Spell Power. Even then, it would be a better alternative for this concern.

I still like the idea of a poisonous blast that bring along some stat damage with it.

[Artagon]

So.. there is already a magical piercing ability in the game.. Throat Dagger from Harper. Funnily, that ability is what I picture the eldritch blast looking like... anyway, anyone ever run into something resistant to it?

[011775715]

I've updated the main post with our current thinking based on feedback, some testing, filling in unnamed costs that weren't listed before, etc.

Changes:

Stanch gives 33% of max health and dings you for -3% max HP
Unholy Blast changed to Poison damage (name change TBD)
Penetrating Blast: Changed to Pierce instead of untyped.
Updated tentative Depravity costs for Confusion, Mass Confusion, Eldritch Ball.

sorry this have little to do with it but will otto stone of xp work on warlock when they come out? also when will otto be out to be ablee to be bought in ddo store next time?

[011775715]

Here's our current design for the Tainted Scholar enhancements!

Tainted Scholars have learned a wider variety of spells than other Warlocks, and have extensively studied methods for enhancing Eldritch Blasts, such as Eldritch Essences for changing the damage type, or alternate active forms of Eldritch Blast, such as Eldritch Chains. They've got great damage output, especially when they critically hit. They have access to Confusion, which makes enemies indiscriminately attack friends and foe.

https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/taintedscholar.jpg

Core Abilities



1 AP, class level 1: Tainted Spellcasting:

Activate for 10 Depravity: +25 Universal Spell Power, +2 bonus to all Spell DCs. Lasts 20 seconds. 60 second cooldown.
You gain 1 Depravity each time you damage enemies with Eldritch Blast or spells (except with Positive Energy). You can gain 1 Depravity every 7 seconds. Each additional trained Tainted Scholar Core enhancement reduces this cooldown by 1 second, to a minimum of 2 seconds. You can have up to 10 Depravity, which disappears on rest, death or entering public spaces.
Passive: Each point spent in Tainted Scholar provides +0.75 Universal Spell Power.
Featherfall is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 1.


5 AP, class level 3: Tainted Lore:

+10% Spell Critical Damage, +1 to Warlock Spell DCs. (Spell Critical damage also applies to criticals with Eldritch Blast.) +10 maximum Depravity.
Web is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 2.


10 AP, class level 6: Stanch:

Activate for 7 Depravity: Gains temporary hitpoints equal to your 33% of your maximum hitpoints. These last for 1 minute. You have -3% maximum hitpoints until you rest, which stacks up to 99 times.
+10 maximum Depravity.
Crushing Despair is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 3.


20 AP, class level 12: Tainted Lore:

+20% Spell Critical Damage, +1 to Warlock Spell DCs.
+10 maximum Depravity.
Death Ward is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 4.


30 AP, class level 18: Blood Component:

Your Eldritch Blast attacks 10% faster.
+10 maximum Depravity.
-25 Maximum HP
Greater Heroism is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 5.


41 AP, class level 20: Heretical Lore:

Your Eldritch Blast deals +1d6 damage. +30% Spell Critical Damage. +4 Charisma
+10 maximum Depravity.
Energy Drain is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 6.



Tier One


Planar Power: +30/60/90 Spell Points
Feigned Health: When you cast spells on yourself or allies, you grant temporary hitpoints equal to (33%/66%/100%) of your Charisma.
Command SLA: Activate for 3/2/1 Depravity:
Strong Pact: Bonus Eldritch Blast damage from your Pact is increased by 1d4. This scales with spellpower, like all Eldritch Blast damage.
Eldritch Focus: +1/2/3 Spellcraft and Concentration. Rank 3: +1 Will Saves


Tier Two


"Unholy Blast" (name TBD): Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast base damage is now Poison instead of Force.

1 rank 2 AP


Eldritch Chain: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: When toggled on, your basic attack an Eldritch Blast that chains to two other enemies. This scales with 66% spellpower.
Stunning Blast: Activate for 7/5/3 Depravity: Attack one enemy with an Eldritch Blast that stuns your target for 12 seconds on a failed Fortitude saving throw.
Strong Pact: same as lower tier
Wand and Scroll Mastery: +[25/50/75]% to the effectiveness of your wands, scrolls, and other items that cast spells, and +[1/2/3] to the DCs of your offensive wands.


Tier Three


Faltering Blast: Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast attacks have a 25% chance to slow enemy movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds.

1 rank 2 AP


Efficient Heighten:
Confusion: Activate for 3/2/1 Depravity: Target non-boss monster becomes Confused on a failed Will Saving throw.

Confused monsters attack and are attacked by both monster characters and player characters.


Strong Pact: same as lower tier
CHA/INT


Tier Four


Penetrating Blast: Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast base damage is now Piercing instead of Force. You deal +1d6 Eldritch Blast damage.

1 rank 2 AP


Enervating Shadow: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: This Eldritch Blast auto-attack seeks out enemies, and inflicts a negative level 10% of the time.
Bewitching Blast: Your Eldritch Blast has a 10% chance to Confuse non-boss monsters for 6 seconds.

Confused monsters attack and are attacked by both monster characters and player characters.


Strong Pact: same as lower tier
CHA/INT


Tier Five


Eldritch Power: Your Eldritch Blast deals +1d6 damage.

1 rank 2 AP


Eldritch Ball: Activate for 15/10/5 Depravity: Shoot a projectile at a distant enemy, exploding in an area, dealing Eldritch Blast damage.
Mass Confusion: Activate for 15/10/5 Depravity: A group of non-boss monsters each become Confused on a failed Will saving throw.

Confused monsters attack and are attacked by both monster characters and player characters.


Planar Focus: +1 to all Spell DCs

1 rank 2 AP




As always, some of these are still tentative. Abilities or granted spells may change based on feedback and our ability to create new spells.

Thanks for your feedback!
sorry this have little to do with it but will otto stone of xp work on warlock when they come out? also when will otto be out to be ablee to be bought in ddo store next time?

[Silverleafeon]

How about "Noxious Blast?"

+1 nice name

[Drathsiddh]

The drive behind the change came from the Content side of the team, primarily myself. In the current game, there are definitely sources of Untyped/Bane damage; however, most of them (especially in Heroic) are either behind cooldowns (Mutilate), require Spell Points, or both (Disintegrate, Ruin). Untyped/Bane damage is not resisted or reduced by any sources in-game, and never can be; that's the entire point of that damage type.

Eldritch Blast is free and fast damage already, and while we want Warlocks to be equipped to handle all kinds of foes, it shouldn't be through a single enhancement that makes them do damage that no enemy, inanimate object, or Raid Boss can ever resist or reduce. It makes that ability incredibly powerful (and would be considered "mandatory" in every Warlock build), and creates balance concerns across all existing and future content.
Yup, this makes sense. But I'd suggest, if you can fit it in something like this;

Tier One: Chilling Bones: Cost 2 AP: Eldiritch Essence Stance: Toggle: Your Eldirith Blast now deals Cold Damage instead of force You can only have one Eldiritch Essence Stance active at a time. ( When you do quests like Taiming the Flames, this will be invaluable.)

Tier Two: Shocking: Cost 2 AP, Req Chilling Bones: Eldiritch Essence Stance: Toggle: Your Eldiritch Blast now deals Electric Damage instead of force. You can only have one Eldiritch Essence Stance active at a time. (Mainly flavour, but is still useful for the elec vulnerable mobs)

Tier Three Embracing Thy Power(Multi-Selcetor)
Embracing Thy Power: Light: Cost 2 AP. Req: Shocking: Toggle: Eldiritch Essence Stance: Your Eldiritch Blast now deals Light Damage instead of force. You can only have one Eldiritch Essence Stance active at a time
Embracing Thy Power: Dark: Cost 2 Ap. Req: Shocking: Toggle: Eldiritch Essence Stance: Your Eldiritch Blast now deals Negative Damage instead of force. You can only have one Eldiritch Essence Stance active at a time. (Not many mobs are immune to light. Plus Light is also the theme of Enlightened Spirits. The neg damage is targeted at the Pale Master Warlocks, who can have D Aura ticking with the Eldiritch Aura (Enlightened Spirit) also doing neg damage, allowing some powerful self healing.

Tier Four Mauling Cost 2 AP Req: Embracing Thy Power: Toggle: Eldiritch Essence Stance: Your Eldiritch Blast now deals Slashing, Bludgeoning and Piercing damage instead of force. You can only have one Eldiritch Essence Stance active at a time. (This way you are bypassing the Force DR some creature might have by dealing physical damage.)

Tier Five The Bane Cost 2 AP, Req Mauling: Toggle: Eldiritch Essence Stance: Your Eldiritch Blast now deals Bane damage instead of Force. You can only have one Eldiritch Essence Stance active at a time (Yay! What we've all been waiting for. At tier five, the cost kind of nullifies the OP of it. 32 APs are a lot but added to that you can't take any other tier five abilities from other trees. This way, Warlocks do have ways of bypassing the Force immunity monsters might have if they go up to say, tier three or so but without making this a "must have" for every build.)

Considering the space issue, you can do away with Wand/Scroll mastery and move Planar Power to the second tier,thus freeing a slot at the first tier which Chilling Bones comes to occupy. Shocking takes the place of Unholy Blast which, frankly no one like. Flattering Blast looks nice, but unless something else is done away with, it'll have to go so that Embracing Thy Power can come . Mauling takes the place of Penetrating Blast, allowing more versatility against the undead, while The Bane doesn't displace anything.

Cio.

[Genebob]

Yup, this makes sense. But I'd suggest, if you can fit it in something like this;

Tier One: Chilling Bones: Cost 2 AP: Eldiritch Essence Stance: Toggle: Your Eldirith Blast now deals Cold Damage instead of force You can only have one Eldiritch Essence Stance active at a time. ( When you do quests like Taiming the Flames, this will be invaluable.)

Tier Two: Shocking: Cost 2 AP, Req Chilling Bones: Eldiritch Essence Stance: Toggle: Your Eldiritch Blast now deals Electric Damage instead of force. You can only have one Eldiritch Essence Stance active at a time. (Mainly flavour, but is still useful for the elec vulnerable mobs)

Tier Three Embracing Thy Power(Multi-Selcetor)
Embracing Thy Power: Light: Cost 2 AP. Req: Shocking: Toggle: Eldiritch Essence Stance: Your Eldiritch Blast now deals Light Damage instead of force. You can only have one Eldiritch Essence Stance active at a time
Embracing Thy Power: Dark: Cost 2 Ap. Req: Shocking: Toggle: Eldiritch Essence Stance: Your Eldiritch Blast now deals Negative Damage instead of force. You can only have one Eldiritch Essence Stance active at a time. (Not many mobs are immune to light. Plus Light is also the theme of Enlightened Spirits. The neg damage is targeted at the Pale Master Warlocks, who can have D Aura ticking with the Eldiritch Aura (Enlightened Spirit) also doing neg damage, allowing some powerful self healing.

Tier Four Mauling Cost 2 AP Req: Embracing Thy Power: Toggle: Eldiritch Essence Stance: Your Eldiritch Blast now deals Slashing, Bludgeoning and Piercing damage instead of force. You can only have one Eldiritch Essence Stance active at a time. (This way you are bypassing the Force DR some creature might have by dealing physical damage.)

Tier Five The Bane Cost 2 AP, Req Mauling: Toggle: Eldiritch Essence Stance: Your Eldiritch Blast now deals Bane damage instead of Force. You can only have one Eldiritch Essence Stance active at a time (Yay! What we've all been waiting for. At tier five, the cost kind of nullifies the OP of it. 32 APs are a lot but added to that you can't take any other tier five abilities from other trees. This way, Warlocks do have ways of bypassing the Force immunity monsters might have if they go up to say, tier three or so but without making this a "must have" for every build.)

Considering the space issue, you can do away with Wand/Scroll mastery and move Planar Power to the second tier,thus freeing a slot at the first tier which Chilling Bones comes to occupy. Shocking takes the place of Unholy Blast which, frankly no one like. Flattering Blast looks nice, but unless something else is done away with, it'll have to go so that Embracing Thy Power can come . Mauling takes the place of Penetrating Blast, allowing more versatility against the undead, while The Bane doesn't displace anything.

Cio.


I would like to second this(or some form of this). right now looking at the trees, I see poison as kinda useless, and I feel like any warlock build will require penetrating blast.

This seems better to me because with any build I can dip into this tree and at least take cold as an emergency alternative to force immune, or as utility to deal with fire based enemies. Or I can go all in and have all kinds of Utility to face creatures with an elemental weakness

HOWEVER, It would prolly need to deal less than standard damage to prevent it from being too good (balance issues)


If this couldn't be made to work, a less cool alternative would be to have a (toggle, of course) feat for all warlocks to change their EB from force to 100% pact damage type, so instead of 1-6 force and 1-4 acid from old one, it would be 2-10 Acid. This way other trees wouldnt need to feel obligated to dip into TS tree for every build just to get a base damage type alternative.

[Silkenwise]

https://www.ddo.com/sites/default/files/taintedscholar.jpg


Eldritch Chain: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: When toggled on, your basic attack an Eldritch Blast that chains to two other enemies. This scales with 66% spellpower.

Eldritch Ball: Activate for 15/10/5 Depravity: Shoot a projectile at a distant enemy, exploding in an area, dealing Eldritch Blast damage.


So,.... once you get the Capstone power for the ball, will that then let you chain Bursts to multi-explode a group of enemies?
Because that would be pretty sweet ~!

[XxJFGxX]

Utterdark Blast: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: This Eldritch Blast auto-attack seeks out enemies, and inflicts 2 negative levels on a failed Fortitude save. DC 10 + Warlock level + Cha mod + Sundering, combat feats, etc.

What about this as a substitute for Enervating Shadows?

[gwonbush]

Utterdark Blast: Eldritch Blast Shape Stance: This Eldritch Blast auto-attack seeks out enemies, and inflicts 2 negative levels on a failed Fortitude save. DC 10 + Warlock level + Cha mod + Sundering, combat feats, etc.

What about this as a substitute for Enervating Shadows?

I'd guess it would be really OP in everything besides EE. I mean, I imagine the attack speed of Eldritch Blast to be roughly equal to weapon swings. With each blast creating 2 negs, that stacks up insanely fast.

[XxJFGxX]

I'd guess it would be really OP in everything besides EE. I mean, I imagine the attack speed of Eldritch Blast to be roughly equal to weapon swings. With each blast creating 2 negs, that stacks up insanely fast.

Only on a failed fort save. I don't believe it would be OP by any means because of casters casting deathward, undead, constructs, red names, etc would be immune to it. If it is that much of a problem then make it subject to SR but honestly I don't think it would be necessary.

[gwonbush]

It's not like the save DCs aren't going to be pretty good for everything besides EE anyway. And each time they fail, their saves drop by 4.

[HastyPudding]

I just realized there's no spell penetration bonuses in this tree. If warlock got any spell penetration bonuses, this would be the enhancement tree to put it in. I mean, the vast majority of the warlock's spell list is affected by spell resistance. All other spellcasters that focus on DC's (like wizards, clerics and spellsinger bards) have +1/+2/+3 spell penetration bonuses in their trees. Heck, even adding 2-3 total bonus to the cores would be useful.

[XxJFGxX]

It's not like the save DCs aren't going to be pretty good for everything besides EE anyway. And each time they fail, their saves drop by 4.

True but epic monsters regenerate negative levels at a very fast pace especially EE. And even with my proposed revamp for Enervating Shadows you have to have a decent amount of Warlock levels, geared out, have PLs, etc to get a high DC on it for EE. And even then it's not optimal in every combat situation given certain mobs that I listed before. But a low proc chance to give 1 negative level is not very optimal in epics especially in EE.

[XxJFGxX]

I just realized there's no spell penetration bonuses in this tree. If warlock got any spell penetration bonuses, this would be the enhancement tree to put it in. I mean, the vast majority of the warlock's spell list is affected by spell resistance. All other spellcasters that focus on DC's (like wizards, clerics and spellsinger bards) have +1/+2/+3 spell penetration bonuses in their trees. Heck, even adding 2-3 total bonus to the cores would be useful.

Yeah I noticed that too and agree that they should get additional spell penetration bonuses.

[Kylstrem]

Here's our current design for the Tainted Scholar enhancements!


Featherfall is added to your known Warlock Spells at level 1.


This is a complete waste. AH is full of level 1 FF items. Used to be you had to find a Ring of Feathers to get FF on an item at level 1, now FF items drop like gringos from the sky in Three Amigos.

Since Warlocks are so spell-starved, give something like Sonic Blast that at least lets you break barrels and crates en-masse at higher levels.

[Drakos]

This is a complete waste. AH is full of level 1 FF items. Used to be you had to find a Ring of Feathers to get FF on an item at level 1, now FF items drop like gringos from the sky in Three Amigos.Since Warlocks are so spell-starved, give something like Sonic Blast that at least lets you break barrels and crates en-masse at higher levels.They are trying to avoid direct damage spells for Warlocks.

[Geister]

I'm not really happy with the way EB damage types are currently set to be released. Any primarily warlock build will be forced to invest heavily in Tainted Scholar to be usable in some content (as mentioned before, poison is worthless). Basically it means every warlock build will be tainted scholar and something since you have to invest at least 22 points to make your EB a viable damage type in all (at least I hope its all) content. Also as mentioned before a warlock will not have the option of swapping weapons to bypass DR. I think changing the EB base damage type to physical needs to be an auto granted feat (toggle) at around warlock level 12-15 so that heavy warlock builds that are relying on the EB damage can be viable without 22 build points required in tainted scholar.

As for the current feats in the unholy blast - faltering blast - penetrating blast change it to:
faltering blast - as is but rank 2 and not required for the other two
unholy blast - change the name to elemental blast (or something) rank 3 and have it do 3/4 the damage of a normal blast (basically you would only really want to use it against mobs weak to that element) multi selector choice of one fire/acid/electric/cold. Another idea would be to make it prismatic blast and do all 4 elemental damage types split evenly.
penetrating blast - either keep it as it is (for warlocks with less then 12-15 warlock levels) or change it to a second elemental blast damage type - or make it a spell power boost to the the damage type selected maybe 2-3 ranks with +10 SP to that element per rank

Lastly I understand the reasoning behind changing from untyped to physical damage but I don't get the choice of pierce. Maybe its just me but I'm imagining smacking stuff will solid walls of power... not needle tip little spikes - whats wrong with physical bludgeon ;p

[HastyPudding]

I'm not really happy with the way EB damage types are currently set to be released. Any primarily warlock build will be forced to invest heavily in Tainted Scholar to be usable in some content (as mentioned before, poison is worthless). Basically it means every warlock build will be tainted scholar and something since you have to invest at least 22 points to make your EB a viable damage type in all (at least I hope its all) content. Also as mentioned before a warlock will not have the option of swapping weapons to bypass DR. I think changing the EB base damage type to physical needs to be an auto granted feat (toggle) at around warlock level 12-15 so that heavy warlock builds that are relying on the EB damage can be viable without 22 build points required in tainted scholar.

As for the current feats in the unholy blast - faltering blast - penetrating blast change it to:
faltering blast - as is but rank 2 and not required for the other two
unholy blast - change the name to elemental blast (or something) rank 3 and have it do 3/4 the damage of a normal blast (basically you would only really want to use it against mobs weak to that element) multi selector choice of one fire/acid/electric/cold. Another idea would be to make it prismatic blast and do all 4 elemental damage types split evenly.
penetrating blast - either keep it as it is (for warlocks with less then 12-15 warlock levels) or change it to a second elemental blast damage type - or make it a spell power boost to the the damage type selected maybe 2-3 ranks with +10 SP to that element per rank

Lastly I understand the reasoning behind changing from untyped to physical damage but I don't get the choice of pierce. Maybe its just me but I'm imagining smacking stuff will solid walls of power... not needle tip little spikes - whats wrong with physical bludgeon ;p

Why? Anyone in enlightened spirit is going to probably be either a melee or ranged multiclass or be using the exalted angel destiny if pure. Souleater actually provides melee and ranged power and is pretty weapon-friendly. Those two trees have the option of not even using the auto-attack eldritch blast. You also can have martial weapon proficiency in enlightened spirit or just get the master's touch spell at level 1, and you can beat enemies like the adamantine golem in VoN 5 with your weapon to your heart's content.

Tainted scholar is pretty much THE caster tree and is the only one that doesn't fully support weapon usage. Tainted scholar also has the best options for eldritch blasts like the only essences and the most blast shapes. If you're using eldritch blast a lot, you're going to have points invested in tainted scholar, anyway. Basically, anyone serious about eldritch blast damage will be using the penetrating blast for problematic enemies; everyone else will be using weapons.

This also acts as a balancing agent. If you're going melee you shouldn't be as spectacular a spellcaster or as proficient with eldritch blast as a full spellcasting warlock, and vice versa. If you're delving high up a tree, any class tree in any class, that's probably your specialty and the reason you built the character in the first place. Anyone going high up the tainted scholar tree is going to be a caster, and even if your main tree is the souleater for the debuffs spell options, you're going to want to go up the tainted scholar tree for obvious reasons. I don't really see the problem, here.

[Kylstrem]

They are trying to avoid direct damage spells for Warlocks.

Well sonic blast isn't very much direct damage. It's okay low levels, mainly for stunning mobs for a few seconds, but I used to break barrels fast. I doubt anyone is going to be using it at high levels for DPS.
Just give a little more utility than freakin' featherfall spell.

[HatsuharuZ]

They are trying to avoid direct damage spells for Warlocks.

I wonder why that is...

[Vargouille]

Thanks for the continued feedback, trying to catch up on replying. We've been reading along, but been very busy here recently (along with U.S. Holiday on Monday).

Some thoughts:

"Unholy Blast" will probably become Evil damage. We've been concerned about the re-education that comes with that, but a sufficiently good tooltip should help there. (Due to precedents, we've seen fairly frequent confusion where some players believe alignment damage doesn't affect that alignment -- aka, some players believe Evil doesn't affect Evil creatures. This is not true generally. DDO unfortunately trained some players incorrectly early on with the way some weapons and spells work, but that is something specific to those weapons and spells.)
We don't believe Penetrating Blast will be a 100% must have for all Warlocks 100% of the time. We've seen a small contingent of players say this repeatedly, but we simply disagree and haven't seen any real argument for why it would be required so much of the time (nor does it seem like all that many players are saying it). At least 90% of DDO doesn't require Piercing damage, and it may be closer to 99% of quests.
Our current understanding is that magical damage of physical damage types ignores DR but is reduced by PRR (and not MRR). These are some things we'll continue to investigate (we would NOT want it to be reduced by both PRR and MRR, for instance). Steelstar covered our other reasons for wanting to preserve the nature of untyped damage in DDO as-is. To be clear, changing the design from untyped to Piercing is not intended a buff to player power. It's a buff to DDO, but not a buff for characters who take that specific ability.
Eldritch Blast isn't a Magic Missile.
We'll probably look at options for adding Spell Pen.




I think the main point is that casters need more than just a couple of ways to scale the power of their spells
We've been having some discussions about this. Exactly what is done more generally isn't decided yet.


deep down inside my heart.. I was really, really hoping that tainted scholar could use "Forbidden spell".

(...)

SLA: Release arcana (Core 5): forbidden art of sealing. It was mainly used by arcane gods, sealing their most hated enemies for the eternity. But.. this art was long lost and nearly forgotten. Nobody has ever seen its true potential. This ability requires intensive focus (you have to build dep).
- effect: Caster centered wide AoE stun: DC 12 + caster level + charisma modifier or stunned for 2 - 3 seconds (will save negate the effect). Deal half of your eldritch blast damage to all enemies. 2 minutes CD.

Specific ideas are always interesting to us.


I'm a bit concerned about how "Depravity" is going to be displayed.
Depravity isn't a buff. It's a resource like Weapon Bond in Occult Slayer, and shows up as soon as you put Tainted Spellcasting (first Core) onto your hot bar.

(This is part of why Tainted Spellcasting is an activated ability, by the way. Not an accidental design!)


Worse, there is at least one monster healed by force.
Yes. This isn't that alarming to us. There should be monsters that some characters fear or having more problems with than other characters (or other monsters). Being able to get around this with a tier 2 enhancement or other more creative solutions is more or less acceptable to us.

[fmalfeas]

Yes. This isn't that alarming to us. There should be monsters that some characters fear or having more problems with than other characters (or other monsters). Being able to get around this with a tier 2 enhancement or other more creative solutions is more or less acceptable to us.

As long as there is a bypass/workaround fairly early on, I'm 100% okay with it! :) I was just living in fear of it being set as a t5 enhancement.

[slarden]

We'll probably look at options for adding Spell Pen.




This is critical esp since eShavarath and eVale are coming out and many enemies there have spell resistance.

In general please make sure spell resistance #s are reasonable on EE. If the wiki is correct, spell resistance #s will be higher than players can penetrate in eShavarath and eVale.

[HatsuharuZ]

Depravity isn't a buff. It's a resource like Weapon Bond in Occult Slayer, and shows up as soon as you put Tainted Spellcasting (first Core) onto your hot bar.

(This is part of why Tainted Spellcasting is an activated ability, by the way. Not an accidental design!)


I was thinking of the counters for Epic Moments, which tend to be displayed amongst the buffs. Thank you for replying! :D

[Geister]

Why? Anyone in enlightened spirit is going to probably be either a melee or ranged multiclass or be using the exalted angel destiny if pure. Souleater actually provides melee and ranged power and is pretty weapon-friendly. Those two trees have the option of not even using the auto-attack eldritch blast. You also can have martial weapon proficiency in enlightened spirit or just get the master's touch spell at level 1, and you can beat enemies like the adamantine golem in VoN 5 with your weapon to your heart's content.

Tainted scholar is pretty much THE caster tree and is the only one that doesn't fully support weapon usage. Tainted scholar also has the best options for eldritch blasts like the only essences and the most blast shapes. If you're using eldritch blast a lot, you're going to have points invested in tainted scholar, anyway. Basically, anyone serious about eldritch blast damage will be using the penetrating blast for problematic enemies; everyone else will be using weapons.

This also acts as a balancing agent. If you're going melee you shouldn't be as spectacular a spellcaster or as proficient with eldritch blast as a full spellcasting warlock, and vice versa. If you're delving high up a tree, any class tree in any class, that's probably your specialty and the reason you built the character in the first place. Anyone going high up the tainted scholar tree is going to be a caster, and even if your main tree is the souleater for the debuffs spell options, you're going to want to go up the tainted scholar tree for obvious reasons. I don't really see the problem, here.


Because while the other trees do provide some other means of damage primarily warlock builds are still going to have to rely on EB as a major portion of their damage. Doesn't matter anymore though since they are changing the terrible poison damage to evil. That gives it a good tie in with enlightened spirit using light and alignment spell power. I'm happy with that.

[slarden]

Because while the other trees do provide some other means of damage primarily warlock builds are still going to have to rely on EB as a major portion of their damage. Doesn't matter anymore though since they are changing the terrible poison damage to evil. That gives it a good tie in with enlightened spirit using light and alignment spell power. I'm happy with that.

This is my thought as well.

Either Enlightened Spirit with Tainted Scholar as a strong secondary tree (Tier 4 and probably level 18 core) or vice versa. I was originally thinking of splashing 2 favored soul, but I am not sure I would have the AP or that I need the damage boost/sp regen.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Depravity isn't a buff. It's a resource like Weapon Bond in Occult Slayer, and shows up as soon as you put Tainted Spellcasting (first Core) onto your hot bar.

(This is part of why Tainted Spellcasting is an activated ability, by the way. Not an accidental design!)

I really like how that shows up on Weapon Bond (and I believe Spirit in PA). I'm less of a fan of needing to hotbar something that I will never, ever click, but I can live with that rather than another constantly-changing-position buff lol (Although +25 USP and +2 DC is something that I probably would click every so often, unlike the Weapon Bond clicky...)

[Drakos]

Well sonic blast isn't very much direct damage. It's okay low levels, mainly for stunning mobs for a few seconds, but I used to break barrels fast. I doubt anyone is going to be using it at high levels for DPS.Just give a little more utility than freakin' featherfall spell.I agree that they might consider something other than Feather Fall. However they have the right idea in trying to make the EB the Warlock tool of choice, they need to make sure it is viable however.
I wonder why that is...I know why, I way just responding to a post recommending a damage spell to replace Feather Fall.

[Drakos]

Yes. This isn't that alarming to us. There should be monsters that some characters fear or having more problems with than other characters (or other monsters). Being able to get around this with a tier 2 enhancement or other more creative solutions is more or less acceptable to us.Yes, the change to Unholy Blast to be Evil damage fixes this concern. I agree a Tier 2 ability isn't asking too much to overcome the limitation. When I made my post it was still set as Poison so....

[btolson]

Thanks for the continued feedback, trying to catch up on replying. We've been reading along, but been very busy here recently (along with U.S. Holiday on Monday).


I guess this is a bit out of scope now, but did you happen to look into Poison damage as a spell type / Creeping Doom? It would be nice if that functioned correctly at some point.

[gwonbush]

I really like how that shows up on Weapon Bond (and I believe Spirit in PA). I'm less of a fan of needing to hotbar something that I will never, ever click, but I can live with that rather than another constantly-changing-position buff lol (Although +25 USP and +2 DC is something that I probably would click every so often, unlike the Weapon Bond clicky...)

If the mechanics are the same as Weapon Bond, all abilities that use Depravity as a resource should show the amount you have.

[Requiro]

As general note: We wait for Lamannia. The main problem is that we don’t know speed of Eldritch Blast. And that is primary focus on this tree. Before that, there is little to improve/test.

General opinion and suggestions

Core abilities: Looks ok.

Level 1 - Summon Monster 2 instead of FeatherFall (and move FeatherFall to normal Spell Book)
Level 6 - Active ability: +33% HP, -1% max HP (-3% max HP for 60 second minor buff is too painful)
Level 12 - Add: Echoes of Power restore 4 SP every 4 second instead of 6 (thematic improvement)
Level 18 - Add: Echoes of Power restore 5 SP every 3 second instead of 4 (thematic improvement)
Level 20 - Add: Additional +1d4 Pact damage, Echoes of Power restore 6 SP every 2 second, and expand to minimum of 20 SP (thematic improvement)

Tier 1 abilities – Nothing special here.
Strong Pact – If all subtree cost 1 AP per Ability then fine. If not, and cost 2 AP, then Tier 3 and 4 should get some bonuses. See below
Eldritch Focus – Add + 1/2/3 Perform skill (For sonic Fey Pact damage)

Tier 2 abilities – Some very interesting abilities. Eldritch Chain and Stunning Blast is must have.
Unholy Blast – Evil is great unknown damage. But Poison was totally useless. Also Add +1d4 Pact damage for balance (and usefulness) reason.
Wand and Scroll Mastery – Add + 1/2/3 Caster Level (for unique and useful improvement)

Tier 3 abilities – Some very good abilities. Especially Faltering Blast. Suggestions:
Strong Pact – (Only if cost 2 AP) Add Beguiling Defenses/Fiendish Resilience/Thought Shield feat

Tier 4 abilities – Mix of good and week abilities. Bewitching Blast is sweet Eldritch Blast improvement.
Penetrating Blast – Quite week ability. Good for some monsters that are immune to Force/Evil but in every other situation 1d6 more damage is much worse than CC ability from Faltering Blast. Improve damage to 2d6 or add some Spell Penetration traits.
Enervating Shadow – Strange ability. Nice for one target, that is moving. In every other situation Eldritch Chain is better. Add Destruction ability that trigger with every Eldritch Blast.
Strong Pact – (Only if cost 2 AP) Add Beguiling Defenses/Fiendish Resilience/Thought Shield feat

Tier 5 abilities – Most good abilities. Only one suggestion:
Eldritch Power – Improve damage to 2d6 or Add 1d4 Pact damage.

And let made this tree less than 80 AP cost, if all abilities is taken.

[gwonbush]

Tier 4 abilities – Mix of good and week abilities. Bewitching Blast is sweet Eldritch Blast improvement.
Penetrating Blast – Quite week ability. Good for some monsters that are immune to Force/Evil but in every other situation 1d6 more damage is much worse than CC ability from Faltering Blast. Improve damage to 2d6 or add some Spell Penetration traits.
Enervating Shadow – Strange ability. Nice for one target, that is moving. In every other situation Eldritch Chain is better. Add Destruction ability that trigger with every Eldritch Blast.
[

Penetrating Blast's 1d6 extra damage is a passive, so it is always worthwhile. As for Enervating Shadow, it is always better against single target compared to Eldritch Chain because Eldritch Chain has reduced spellpower scaling. I do agree with all the other points, especially buffing up Eldritch Power, which is rather underwhelming as a T5.

[Requiro]

Penetrating Blast's 1d6 extra damage is a passive, so it is always worthwhile (...)

I must misread then. If this is passive ability (so you gain 1d6 damage with Eldritch Blast, no matter of Active Eldritch Essence Stance) then you are right, this ability is worth 2 AP.


(…) As for Enervating Shadow, it is always better against single target compared to Eldritch Chain because Eldritch Chain has reduced spellpower scaling. (…)

Theoretical – yes. But in practice, Trash is never alone, and even with 2 enemies Eldritch Chain is better in DPS. Against Boss (so in most cases in fight against one enemy), there is no point Turn on Enervating Shadow, because most bosses are immune to negative levels. It is better spend that 2 AP somewhere else, and just turn off Eldritch Chain on Boss fight.
That’s why I suggest a little improvements to Enervating Shadow – Destruction on hit, with Eldritch Blast. For that little debuff on Boss fight, I will glad spend 2 AP. For the record - this is normal Destruction (not Improved one), that can occur once per 3 second only.

[CelticTrojan]

Thanks for the continued feedback, trying to catch up on replying. We've been reading along, but been very busy here recently (along with U.S. Holiday on Monday).

Some thoughts:

"Unholy Blast" will probably become Evil damage. We've been concerned about the re-education that comes with that, but a sufficiently good tooltip should help there. (Due to precedents, we've seen fairly frequent confusion where some players believe alignment damage doesn't affect that alignment -- aka, some players believe Evil doesn't affect Evil creatures. This is not true generally. DDO unfortunately trained some players incorrectly early on with the way some weapons and spells work, but that is something specific to those weapons and spells.)
We don't believe Penetrating Blast will be a 100% must have for all Warlocks 100% of the time. We've seen a small contingent of players say this repeatedly, but we simply disagree and haven't seen any real argument for why it would be required so much of the time (nor does it seem like all that many players are saying it). At least 90% of DDO doesn't require Piercing damage, and it may be closer to 99% of quests.
Our current understanding is that magical damage of physical damage types ignores DR but is reduced by PRR (and not MRR). These are some things we'll continue to investigate (we would NOT want it to be reduced by both PRR and MRR, for instance). Steelstar covered our other reasons for wanting to preserve the nature of untyped damage in DDO as-is. To be clear, changing the design from untyped to Piercing is not intended a buff to player power. It's a buff to DDO, but not a buff for characters who take that specific ability.
Eldritch Blast isn't a Magic Missile.
We'll probably look at options for adding Spell Pen.




We've been having some discussions about this. Exactly what is done more generally isn't decided yet.



Specific ideas are always interesting to us.


Depravity isn't a buff. It's a resource like Weapon Bond in Occult Slayer, and shows up as soon as you put Tainted Spellcasting (first Core) onto your hot bar.

(This is part of why Tainted Spellcasting is an activated ability, by the way. Not an accidental design!)


Yes. This isn't that alarming to us. There should be monsters that some characters fear or having more problems with than other characters (or other monsters). Being able to get around this with a tier 2 enhancement or other more creative solutions is more or less acceptable to us.

Welcome back, I hope you enjoyed some time off.
Thanks for the following :

"Unholy Blast" will probably become Evil damage.
Excellent, glad you moved away from poison, and I was surprised to learn Evil damage can affects Evil NPC's? Indeed I would like to see more on that, as I am one of those old ones who thought same alignment did not effect same alignment. Perhaps a short dev post explaining the current status of damage types and whom they affect would be great if someone could spare the time. Otherwise a good tool tip would certainly help. (Does Good or Pure Good effect Good NPC's or am I misunderstanding ?)

Our current understanding is that magical damage of physical damage types ignores DR but is reduced by PRR (and not MRR).
This plus Steelstars perfectly understandable statement makes me much more interested in Piercing and I await testing in Lamma land with more eagerness now.

Eldritch Blast isn't a Magic Missile.
Many thanks for that clarification - I had a minor nightmare that a simple shield spell would nullify a lot of this class, I did assume you had thought of this but you never know. Just checking. :-)

We'll probably look at options for adding Spell Pen.
Oh please do, it will be needed greatly after level 15.

Depravity isn't a buff. It's a resource like Weapon Bond in Occult Slayer, and shows up as soon as you put Tainted Spellcasting (first Core) onto your hot bar.
(This is part of why Tainted Spellcasting is an activated ability, by the way. Not an accidental design!)
Ohh nice I love the Weapon Bond mechanic in Barb, have you considered that for revamped Kensei? (Off topic but somewhat appropriate ...)

More feedback to come when the test server is open for business, looking very appealing so far.

Celtic Trojan

[XxJFGxX]

That’s why I suggest a little improvements to Enervating Shadow – Destruction on hit, with Eldritch Blast. For that little debuff on Boss fight, I will glad spend 2 AP. For the record - this is normal Destruction (not Improved one), that can occur once per 3 second only.


Would be better if they just implement the Utterdark Blast Invocation.

[Vargouille]

"Unholy Blast" will probably become Evil damage.
Excellent, glad you moved away from poison, and I was surprised to learn Evil damage can affects Evil NPC's? Indeed I would like to see more on that, as I am one of those old ones who thought same alignment did not effect same alignment. Perhaps a short dev post explaining the current status of damage types and whom they affect would be great if someone could spare the time. Otherwise a good tool tip would certainly help. (Does Good or Pure Good effect Good NPC's or am I misunderstanding ?)


Like all damage, alignment damage (Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic) doesn't have any immunity built-into the damage type itself.
Many existing DDO effects that deal alignment damage DO care about the alignment of the target, but they (should) all say so.

Weapon abilities like Righteous, True Law, Pure Good, Anarchic, Axiomatic, Holy and Unholy.
Spells like Chaos Hammer and Unholy Blight.
The fact that so many things do this has naturally led some players to believe this is inherent in the damage type, and is mostly a bad precedent if we ever wanted to use those damage types in other ways.


However, there may be some monsters with immunity to particular kinds of damage, though for alignment damage we're fairly certain this isn't widespread. There are large categories of creature types that sometimes do have interactions with specific damage types.

For instance, Undead heal from Negative Energy, which is inherent to Undead.
Rust/Repair damage generally doesn't affect most creatures, unless they are Constructs of some kind.
They may be exist specific monsters who are immune to Evil or Chaos damage, etc., but that's not a general rule. This isn't stuff I'll dig up and share often, but I found some old data analysis we used for looking at some monster stats. 99% of monsters have 'normal' vulnerability to each of the four alignment damages. Compare to Poison, where ~20% have some kind of immunity to Poison. Or Rust/Repair, where 94% of monsters ignore it (apparently about 6% of monsters in DDO are constructs).
There's always a few weirder monsters. Some monsters repair/rust at large multipliers, taking x3 normal amounts or other amounts, or the monsters who take double or more sonic damage, etc. Those are probably mostly named bosses of some kind (but I'm not going to spend extra time looking into this even though it's interesting).

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

Like all damage, alignment damage (Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic) doesn't have any immunity built-into the damage type itself.
Many existing DDO effects that deal alignment damage DO care about the alignment of the target, but they (should) all say so.
However, there may be some monsters with immunity to particular kinds of damage, though for alignment damage we're fairly certain this isn't widespread. There are large categories of creature types that sometimes do have interactions with specific damage types.



There are a few abilities that deal unholy damage already. Darkfire from drow. Shadow Dagger from assassin. Shadow Lance from Shadowdancer. Just to name a few. All decent abilities, and most are easily obtainable if you'd like to check out what is immune and what isn't to unholy damage. Deific Vengeance is a level 2 cleric spell that (while very weak) deals good damage to those of any alignment. You can see this by blasting a paladin in tavern brawl with it. Silver Flame Exorcism (again while very weak) deals good damage to any alignment. There are a few places in barbarian that you deal chaotic damage.

Another Note!

Pick up a Celestia or a Flameblade. Celestia ONLY deals Light Damage, and Flameblade ONLY deals Fire Damage. Grab an artificer with align weapon. They can hit you with any of the four alignments as a weapon buff. Generally this is used to bypass DR on enemies with certain alignment DR, but it does add on that type of damage to the weapon, so you can have an evil celestia...

[J2345678]

A major goal...is presenting you with multiple tough choices, and making your Warlock different from others.
...fewer options for the same number of choices means less diversity.

Will you please change Unholy Blast to a multi-selector?

Distinct Blast: Multi-selector: Choose an Eldritch Essence Stance.

Toxic Blast: Your Eldritch Blast base damage is now Poison instead of Force. Has a 10% chance to Nauseate non-boss monsters for 6 seconds.
Unholy Blast: Your Eldritch Blast base damage is now Evil instead of Force. Has a 10% chance to Curse non-boss monsters for 6 seconds. Damage is unaffected by target alignment.
Luminous Blast: Your Eldritch Blast base damage is now Light instead of Force. On Vorpal if target undead has fewer than 1000 hit points, they are instantly slain. If target undead has above 1000 hit points, they take 100 damage.


It would give more choices "making your Warlock different from others" instead of every Warlock being Force, Evil or Piercing.




...alignment damage (Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic) doesn't have any immunity built-into the damage type itself.

So now what is the purpose of Penetrating Blast?

All Eldritch Essences need a secondary effect.

Please add the following to Penetrating Blast:

Penetrating Blast: Eldritch Essence Stance: Your Eldritch Blast base damage is now Piercing instead of Force. You deal +1d6 Eldritch Blast damage. On critical deals 3d10 additional damage. (like Elemental Burst)

[SisAmethyst]

Pick up a Celestia or a Flameblade. Celestia ONLY deals Light Damage, and Flameblade ONLY deals Fire Damage. Grab an artificer with align weapon. They can hit you with any of the four alignments as a weapon buff. Generally this is used to bypass DR on enemies with certain alignment DR, but it does add on that type of damage to the weapon, so you can have an evil celestia...

I thought this is broken, that as soon as you get an Arti buff your Celestia or Flameblade is actually borked and doesn't break any DR at all till reequip/recast.

[CelticTrojan]

Like all damage, alignment damage (Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic) doesn't have any immunity built-into the damage type itself.
Many existing DDO effects that deal alignment damage DO care about the alignment of the target, but they (should) all say so.

Weapon abilities like Righteous, True Law, Pure Good, Anarchic, Axiomatic, Holy and Unholy.
Spells like Chaos Hammer and Unholy Blight.
The fact that so many things do this has naturally led some players to believe this is inherent in the damage type, and is mostly a bad precedent if we ever wanted to use those damage types in other ways.


However, there may be some monsters with immunity to particular kinds of damage, though for alignment damage we're fairly certain this isn't widespread. There are large categories of creature types that sometimes do have interactions with specific damage types.

For instance, Undead heal from Negative Energy, which is inherent to Undead.
Rust/Repair damage generally doesn't affect most creatures, unless they are Constructs of some kind.
They may be exist specific monsters who are immune to Evil or Chaos damage, etc., but that's not a general rule. This isn't stuff I'll dig up and share often, but I found some old data analysis we used for looking at some monster stats. 99% of monsters have 'normal' vulnerability to each of the four alignment damages. Compare to Poison, where ~20% have some kind of immunity to Poison. Or Rust/Repair, where 94% of monsters ignore it (apparently about 6% of monsters in DDO are constructs).
There's always a few weirder monsters. Some monsters repair/rust at large multipliers, taking x3 normal amounts or other amounts, or the monsters who take double or more sonic damage, etc. Those are probably mostly named bosses of some kind (but I'm not going to spend extra time looking into this even though it's interesting).



Many thanks for the details. Very interesting indeed.

CelticTrojan

[Robai]

Like all damage, alignment damage (Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic) doesn't have any immunity built-into the damage type itself.
Many existing DDO effects that deal alignment damage DO care about the alignment of the target, but they (should) all say so.

Weapon abilities like Righteous, True Law, Pure Good, Anarchic, Axiomatic, Holy and Unholy.
Spells like Chaos Hammer and Unholy Blight.
The fact that so many things do this has naturally led some players to believe this is inherent in the damage type, and is mostly a bad precedent if we ever wanted to use those damage types in other ways.


However, there may be some monsters with immunity to particular kinds of damage, though for alignment damage we're fairly certain this isn't widespread. There are large categories of creature types that sometimes do have interactions with specific damage types.

For instance, Undead heal from Negative Energy, which is inherent to Undead.
Rust/Repair damage generally doesn't affect most creatures, unless they are Constructs of some kind.
They may be exist specific monsters who are immune to Evil or Chaos damage, etc., but that's not a general rule. This isn't stuff I'll dig up and share often, but I found some old data analysis we used for looking at some monster stats. 99% of monsters have 'normal' vulnerability to each of the four alignment damages. Compare to Poison, where ~20% have some kind of immunity to Poison. Or Rust/Repair, where 94% of monsters ignore it (apparently about 6% of monsters in DDO are constructs).
There's always a few weirder monsters. Some monsters repair/rust at large multipliers, taking x3 normal amounts or other amounts, or the monsters who take double or more sonic damage, etc. Those are probably mostly named bosses of some kind (but I'm not going to spend extra time looking into this even though it's interesting).




That's a bit like saying "Weapons are THE key class feature (at least for damage) of Fighters. All weapons wielded by Fighters should do Bludgeon, Piercing, AND Slashing damage, always bypass DR, and always bypass PRR".

We aren't trying to balance it like just another spell; we're trying to balance it like the primary attacks (AND primary spells) of every other class, which are all resisted by SOMEthing, even if they're able to switch to another spell or weapon to counter that. Things like PRR, MRR, DR, Energy Resistance, and Protection from Energy apply to every other class' primary attacks; Untyped Spell damage is not reduced by any of those.

While prolly offtopic, this reminds me about immunities (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/453151-Champions) idea.
It would be fun to actually have some strategy vs mobs with some immunities.

I hope that at least some classes will be weak against something.
I mean currently there is no big difference which class you play since you can kill everything anyway.
And not just kill, but also everyone can heal themselves, almost everyone is unlocker, automatically finds secret doors, etc. (= boring)

[moo_cow]

I might have missed it, but I notice warlocks are receiving spell critical damage. Will we see a return of this to other caster classes? Will we see this back on items?