Poppystar - Knows No Fear

[Ladislaio]

With orcs swarming the space hulk known only as the “Temple of Elemental Evil”, false “gods” tainting the minds of men, xenos running amok everywhere, and the forces of Chaos (known as barbarians and bards and CG rogues) ransacking quests, it is time for the ultimate solution. The Space Marine must come forth and take its rightful place as the foremost defenders of humanity.

Build Objectives:
“””
They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear.
The Emperor of Mankind
“””
To be beyond being killed.
To do enough damage to kill that which may never kill them.
To have the threat to secure the full attention of even the deadliest of foes.
To use the Heavy Bolter, the well known weapon of mankind.
To be capable of facing any and all situations with a stoic face, be it trap, mob, flame, or the whims of laughing gods.
To. Know. No. Fear.(gotten with just 3 levels of paladin! Woot!)

Class Split:
14 Paladin, 5 Rogue, 1 Monk

Race:
Human. All Space Marines are humans, you Xeno sympathiser! And they are also all male. If you want the female version of this build, it would be a nun, or ‘Battle Sister’

Base Stats
(36 points)
STR: 8 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 18 WIS: 8 CHA: 14
(32 points)
STR: 8 DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 16 WIS: 8 CHA: 14

Both 32 and 36 points need a +3 dex tome for Improved Precise Shot, and a +5 or better dex tome for combat archery.
Int > Cha > Con > Wis > Str are the priorities of the other tomes; all stats improved the build in some way.

Heroic Past lives:
None needed.
Ideal:
3x - Artificer, Barbarian, Bard, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue
1x - Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Fighter, Sorcerer, Wizard

Epic past lives:
None needed.
Ideal: All 36.
Past life stances: Brace(saves, divine), Fortification(fort, martial), Enchant Weapon(damage, arcane), Doubleshot(doubleshot, primal).
Fast healing and additional PRR is also really really nice to have.

Iconic past lives:
None needed. All helpful.

Level : Class : Feat : (Bonus Feat) : *Feats at 28 if different* : # STAT LEVELUP
1 : Rogue : Point Blank Shot : (Weapon Proficiency(Heavy Repeater))
2 : Paladin
3 : Paladin : Completionist
4 : Paladin : # +1 Int
5 : Paladin
6 : Paladin : Rapid Reload
7 : Paladin
8 : Paladin : # +1 Int
9 : Paladin : Precise Shot
10 : Rogue
11 : Rogue
12 : Rogue : Improved Precise Shot : # +1 Int
13 : Rogue
14 : Paladin
15 : Monk : Improved Crit (Ranged) : Precision
16 : Paladin : # +1 Int
17 : Paladin :
18 : Paladin : Rapid Shot
19 : Paladin :
20 : Paladin : # +1 Int
21 : Epic : Overwhelming Critical
24 : Epic : Combat Archery : # +1 Int
26 : Epic : Holy Strike *or* Toughness *or* Positive Spell Power (currently Toughness)
27 : Epic : Blinding Speed
28 : Epic : Elusive Target *or* Doubleshot: # +1 Int

Skill Priority:
Disable Device, Heal, Search, UMD. Other skills are to preference.
Remember, Space Marines may not need to sneak, but they are able to employ any and all tactics to humiliate their foes, so points in hide and move silently can make victory all the sweeter.

Enhancements Short:
Human: Damage Boost, Improved Recovery I (3 pts)
Harper: Strategic Combat II (12 points)
Rogue Mechanic: Sharpshooter, Rapid Fire 3/3, Sniper, Mechanical Reloader. (39 points)
Sacred Defender: Swift defence, 20% bonus HP, 6 con(cuz why not?) (24 points)
Knight of the Chalice: Core 1 (1 point)
Shintao: Core 1 (1 .point)

Enhancements mockup:
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag195/ladislaio/enhancments_knows_no_fear_zpsrxjhmp1a.png (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/ladislaio/media/enhancments_knows_no_fear_zpsrxjhmp1a.png.html)

LD tree that I use at time of posting:
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag195/ladislaio/ld_knows_know_fear_zpsuz9vudnl.jpg (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/ladislaio/media/ld_knows_know_fear_zpsuz9vudnl.jpg.html)
Note that is blitz: Resistance

Twists: These are, um, slightly in favor of flavor, and non-ideal. The build is too strong as is.
Piercing Clarity or Perfection of Mind
Grim Precision or Perfection of Body (Both body and mind of the Space Marine are Perfect)
Rejuvenation Cocoon
Commanding Presence

Feat list, in order:
Point Blank Shot, Weapon Proficiency(Heavy Repeater)[human bonus], Completionist, Rapid Reload, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Critical(Ranged), Precision[Monk Bonus], Rapid Shot;
Epic feats: Overwhelming Critical, Combat Archery, Epic Spell Power: Positive, Blinding Speed, Elusive Target or Doubleshot

Gear:
This is a build in Heavy armor and uses Heavy repeaters. Space Marines are not going to bother with light crossbows! Although for ETR grinding or general leveling purposes tweaking the build to swap monk for arti so you get light repeaters for using needle wouldn't be a *bad* idea.
A sample lv 28 gear layout is forthcomming.

Advantages:
Solid to Strong DPS; Extremely high PRR, about 170 with no past lives (With Combat Expertise instead of Precision and relevant past lives you can top out at about 245 PRR); High MRR, about 137 fully geared; Ranged damage; AoE Damage via Improved Precise Shot; Superior single target damage as you can use Archer’s Focus and, well, shouldn’t have to move with all that PRR; Enough HP (should be over 1k even on a first lifer fully geared). Saves are all solid, and with proper buffs and twists can reach no-fail.

14 Paladin gives you the Holy Sword, 5 Rogue gives you the t5 repeater enhancements, and the last level is monk for the bonus feat and healing amp from shintao.

Note you also have TRAP SKILLS, and in addition to being able to disable traps you are able to place high-DC web traps quickly. These allow you to mire those that would try to sully your holy armor! Carefully placed shaped charges, also known as Deadly Traps, can also be used through gates and other barriers, and are situationally useful if, um, not particularly effective. Shoot them with your bolter!

Disadvantages:
You are in life long servitude to the Corpse God who sits decaying on his Golden Throne, but don’t worry, after the conditioning you will LIKE it that way.
I also must say I really do belive this build is, um, more powerful than I want toons to be in DDO. But some people don't think that is a problem and I've seen a few people who look like they are working their way around to this, so the post goes up. I've had builds like this on paper since holy sword came out, and I'm sure I'm not the only one; even tested it a few times. The damage is now, um, very much there.

FOR THE EMPEROR!

[Ladislaio]

Some tweaks to the level up order and classes to support starting as PDK. Slightly weaker but, in the end, I think it would be just fine. And as they are bigger it is far more Space Marine like!

1 Fighter, 14 Paladin, 5 Rogue

Base Stats
(36 points)
STR: 8 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 18 WIS: 8 CHA: 14
(32 points)
STR: 8 DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 16 WIS: 8 CHA: 14

Both 32 and 36 points need a +3 dex tome for Improved Precise Shot, and a +5 or better dex tome for combat archery.
Int > Cha > Con > Wis > Str are the priorities of the other tomes; all stats improved the build in some way.

PDK, Completionist
Level : Class : Feat : (Bonus Feat) : *Feats at 28 if different* : # STAT LEVELUP
1 : Fighter : Point Blank Shot : (Weapon Proficiency(Heavy Repeater)) (Precise Shot)
2 : Rogue
3 : Paladin : Completionist
4 : Paladin : # +1 Int
5 : Paladin
6 : Paladin : Rapid Reload
7 : Paladin
8 : Paladin : # +1 Int
9 : Paladin : Rapid Shot
10 : Rogue
11 : Rogue
12 : Rogue : Improved Precise Shot : # +1 Int
13 : Rogue
14 : Paladin
15 : Paladin : Improved Crit (Ranged)
16 : Paladin : # +1 Int
17 : Paladin :
18 : Paladin : Precision
19 : Paladin :
20 : Paladin : # +1 Int
21 : Epic : Overwhelming Critical
24 : Epic : Combat Archery : # +1 Int
26 : Epic : Holy Strike *or* Toughness *or* Positive Spell Power (currently Toughness)
27 : Epic : Blinding Speed
28 : Epic : Elusive Target *or* Doubleshot: # +1 Int

PDK, First life
Level : Class : Feat : (Bonus Feat) : *Feats at 28 if different* : # STAT LEVELUP
1 : Fighter : Point Blank Shot : (Weapon Proficiency(Heavy Repeater)) (Precise Shot)
2 : Rogue
3 : Paladin : Rapid Shot
4 : Paladin : # +1 Int
5 : Paladin
6 : Paladin : Rapid Reload
7 : Paladin
8 : Paladin : # +1 Int
9 : Paladin : Quicken
10 : Rogue
11 : Rogue
12 : Rogue : Improved Precise Shot : # +1 Int
13 : Rogue
14 : Paladin
15 : Paladin : Improved Crit (Ranged)
16 : Paladin : # +1 Int
17 : Paladin :
18 : Paladin : Precision
19 : Paladin :
20 : Paladin : # +1 Int
21 : Epic : Overwhelming Critical
24 : Epic : Combat Archery : # +1 Int
26 : Epic : Holy Strike *or* Toughness *or* Positive Spell Power (currently Toughness)
27 : Epic : Blinding Speed
28 : Epic : Elusive Target *or* Doubleshot: # +1 Int



Shadarkai, first life
type out changes here poppy!
STR: 8 DEX: 18 CON: 14 INT: 16 WIS: 8 CHA: 12
Level : Class : Feat : (Bonus Feat) : *Feats at 28 if different* : # STAT LEVELUP
1 : Rogue : Point Blank Shot
2 : Artificer Note the arti instead of monk
3 : Paladin : Rapid Shot
4 : Paladin : # +1 Int
5 : Paladin
6 : Paladin : Precise Shot
7 : Paladin
8 : Paladin : # +1 Int
9 : Paladin : Quicken
10 : Rogue
11 : Rogue
12 : Rogue : Improved Crit (Ranged) : # +1 Int
13 : Rogue
14 : Paladin
15 : Paladin : Improved Precise Shot
16 : Paladin : # +1 Int
17 : Paladin :
18 : Paladin : Precision
19 : Paladin :
20 : Paladin : # +1 Int
21 : Epic : Overwhelming Critical
24 : Epic : Combat Archery : # +1 Int
26 : Epic : Holy Strike *or* Toughness *or* Positive Spell Power (currently Toughness)
27 : Epic : Blinding Speed
28 : Epic : Elusive Target *or* Doubleshot: # +1 Int

[macadope]

U should consider joining the quest for the 2000pt bolt then....https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/459864-Quest-for-the-2000pt-bolt?highlight=2000pt+bolt

don't know how to do forum magical link stuffs.

[Ziindarax]

Interesting build - Just a few thoughts:

#1 - Why dumpstat str? Space Marines are much stronger than the average man.

#2 - Some of the feat slots would be freed up if you took Artificer rather than Monk, which would allow you room to engage in melee combat (with improved critical feat slashing/bludgeoning) which is something Space Marines excel at.

#3 - Space Marines have formidable metabolisms, and given your already impressive defenses, would actually benefit from stacked Fast healing feats.

#4 - The gain you would obtain from 1 shintao core could be matched by a sustainance augment on something like the Mysterious cloak/bracers (Heal amp is +40 stacking on the 21 version, and it comes with stacking boosts to MRR as well).


#5 - Look forward to seeing how my Khorne Berserker measures up.

#6 - Out of curiosity, what is your AC like?

#7 - For Curiosity's sake, how high can you get your int vs str with gearing, and what's your positive healing power like?



With orcs swarming the space hulk known only as the “Temple of Elemental Evil”, false “gods” tainting the minds of men, xenos running amok everywhere, and the forces of Chaos (known as barbarians and bards and CG rogues) ransacking quests, it is time for the ultimate solution. The Space Marine must come forth and take its rightful place as the foremost defenders of humanity.

Build Objectives:
“””
They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them, and in the furnace of war forge them. They will be of iron will and steely muscle. In great armour shall I clad them and with the mightiest guns will they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease, no sickness will blight them. They will have tactics, strategies and machines so that no foe can best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines and they shall know no fear.
The Emperor of Mankind
“””
To be beyond being killed.
To do enough damage to kill that which may never kill them.
To have the threat to secure the full attention of even the deadliest of foes.
To use the Heavy Bolter, the well known weapon of mankind.
To be capable of facing any and all situations with a stoic face, be it trap, mob, flame, or the whims of laughing gods.
To. Know. No. Fear.(gotten with just 3 levels of paladin! Woot!)

Class Split:
14 Paladin, 5 Rogue, 1 Monk

Race:
Human. All Space Marines are humans, you Xeno sympathiser! And they are also all male. If you want the female version of this build, it would be a nun, or ‘Battle Sister’

Base Stats
(36 points)
STR: 8 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 18 WIS: 8 CHA: 14
(32 points)
STR: 8 DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 16 WIS: 8 CHA: 14

Both 32 and 36 points need a +3 dex tome for Improved Precise Shot, and a +5 or better dex tome for combat archery.
Int > Cha > Con > Wis > Str are the priorities of the other tomes; all stats improved the build in some way.

Heroic Past lives:
None needed.
Ideal:
3x - Artificer, Barbarian, Bard, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue
1x - Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Fighter, Sorcerer, Wizard

Epic past lives:
None needed.
Ideal: All 36.
Past life stances: Brace(saves, divine), Fortification(fort, martial), Enchant Weapon(damage, arcane), Doubleshot(doubleshot, primal).
Fast healing and additional PRR is also really really nice to have.

Iconic past lives:
None needed. All helpful.

Level : Class : Feat : (Bonus Feat) : *Feats at 28 if different* : # STAT LEVELUP
1 : Rogue : Point Blank Shot : (Weapon Proficiency(Heavy Repeater))
2 : Paladin
3 : Paladin : Completionist
4 : Paladin : # +1 Int
5 : Paladin
6 : Paladin : Rapid Reload
7 : Paladin
8 : Paladin : # +1 Int
9 : Paladin : Precise Shot
10 : Rogue
11 : Rogue
12 : Rogue : Improved Precise Shot : # +1 Int
13 : Rogue
14 : Paladin
15 : Monk : Improved Crit (Ranged) : Precision
16 : Paladin : # +1 Int
17 : Paladin :
18 : Paladin : Rapid Shot
19 : Paladin :
20 : Paladin : # +1 Int
21 : Epic : Overwhelming Critical
24 : Epic : Combat Archery : # +1 Int
26 : Epic : Holy Strike *or* Toughness *or* Positive Spell Power (currently Toughness)
27 : Epic : Blinding Speed
28 : Epic : Elusive Target *or* Doubleshot: # +1 Int

Skill Priority:
Disable Device, Heal, Search, UMD. Other skills are to preference.
Remember, Space Marines may not need to sneak, but they are able to employ any and all tactics to humiliate their foes, so points in hide and move silently can make victory all the sweeter.

Enhancements Short:
Human: Damage Boost, Improved Recovery I (3 pts)
Harper: Strategic Combat II (12 points)
Rogue Mechanic: Sharpshooter, Rapid Fire 3/3, Sniper, Mechanical Reloader. (39 points)
Sacred Defender: Swift defence, 20% bonus HP, 6 con(cuz why not?) (24 points)
Knight of the Chalice: Core 1 (1 point)
Shintao: Core 1 (1 .point)

enhancment SS’s are forthcomming

LD ED SS is forthcomming
Note that is blitz: Resistance

Twists: These are, um, slightly in favor of flavor, and non-ideal. The build is too strong as is.
Piercing Clarity or Perfection of Mind
Grim Precision or Perfection of Body (Both body and mind of the Space Marine are Perfect)
Rejuvenation Cocoon
Commanding Presence

Feat list, in order:
Point Blank Shot, Weapon Proficiency(Heavy Repeater)[human bonus], Completionist, Rapid Reload, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Critical(Ranged), Precision[Monk Bonus], Rapid Shot;
Epic feats: Overwhelming Critical, Combat Archery, Epic Spell Power: Positive, Blinding Speed, Elusive Target or Doubleshot

Advantages:
Solid to Strong DPS; Extremely high PRR, about 170 with no past lives (With Combat Expertise instead of Precision and relevant past lives you can top out at about 245 PRR); High MRR, about 137 fully geared; Ranged damage; AoE Damage via Improved Precise Shot; Superior single target damage as you can use Archer’s Focus and, well, shouldn’t have to move with all that PRR; Enough HP (should be over 1k even on a first lifer fully geared). Saves are all solid, and with proper buffs and twists can reach no-fail.

14 Paladin gives you the Holy Sword, 5 Rogue gives you the t5 repeater enhancements, and the last level is monk for the bonus feat and healing amp from shintao.

Note you also have TRAP SKILLS, and in addition to being able to disable traps you are able to place high-DC web traps quickly. These allow you to mire those that would try to sully your holy armor! Carefully placed shaped charges, also known as Deadly Traps, can also be used through gates and other barriers, and are situationally useful if, um, not particularly effective. Shoot them with your bolter!

Disadvantages:
You are in life long servitude to the Corpse God who sits decaying on his Golden Throne, but don’t worry, after the conditioning you will LIKE it that way.
I also must say I really do belive this build is, um, more powerful than I want toons to be in DDO. But some people don't think that is a problem and I've seen a few people who look like they are working their way around to this, so the post goes up. I've had builds like this on paper since holy sword came out, and I'm sure I'm not the only one; even tested it a few times. The damage is now, um, very much there.

FOR THE EMPEROR!

[Ladislaio]

#1 - Why dumpstat str? Space Marines are much stronger than the average man.

Because strength doesn't do anything but carrying capacity for the build. For more flavor and less power you could put some points there tho, wouldn't change much.



#2 - Some of the feat slots would be freed up if you took Artificer rather than Monk, which would allow you room to engage in melee combat (with improved critical feat slashing/bludgeoning) which is something Space Marines excel at.

Monk also gets a feat that improves the build - precision - and healing amp enhancement and better saves. While Space Marines excel at melee combat, they excel at ALL THINGS. With Int:Damage for all weapons, there is no reason you cannot use a melee weapon with keen or impact with this build effectively if you wanted, but it would still be weaker than your bolter.



#3 - Space Marines have formidable metabolisms, and given your already impressive defenses, would actually benefit from stacked Fast healing feats.

Yep! Sure does, esp with good hamp gear. Doubleshot is more damage tho.



#4 - The gain you would obtain from 1 shintao core could be matched by a sustainance augment on something like the Mysterious cloak/bracers (Heal amp is +40 stacking on the 21 version, and it comes with stacking boosts to MRR as well).




#5 - Look forward to seeing how my Khorne Berserker measures up.

It comes up short, as does everything evaluated against a Space Marine!



#6 - Out of curiosity, what is your AC like?

It should be really bad, but you need extremely high AC values for it to make a noticible difference in the amount of damage you take in EE quests. With 210 PRR you take something like 32% of base damage so I don't care as much about being hit. Also, as a ranged build with +10% move speed this is fully able to avoid being hit with enough movement, which I learned to do when I had 60 PRR on a monkcher and actually needed to.



#7 - For Curiosity's sake, how high can you get your int vs str with gearing, and what's your positive healing power like?
I think hamp comes out to like +165 from gear and enhancements; Positive spell power depends on how you gear it, but getting it over 200 shouldn't be a problem at all. I need to type up the gear for the forums still.

Of important note:
This isn't actually a flavor build. The twists are, but the build itself, at its core, is oppressively strong, and while it requires some minor tweaks and the build information is veiled in 40k lore for my(and other's) amusement, it is top tier, both on paper and in practice. The difference between this build and the u23 Monkcher build that I took into some early MOD completions and speed runs is so profound I don't even consider them in the same tier.

[Ziindarax]

Thank you for taking the time to respond to each, and every, point of my post. Besides Legendary Dreadnought (which, I presume, includes lay waste and the like? Or is it more like stat and action boosts?).

Could a player substitute LD for another destiny like Divine Crusader, or Unyielding Sentinel?

As far as Precision goes, I think you can select it with just about any class, and I thought arti's could pick one feat upon taking first level? Also, I thought the movement speed only applied as long as you're not wearing heavy armor?

Thanks (I am looking for a build that can really cream Epics for easier ETR farming)! :)


Because strength doesn't do anything but carrying capacity for the build. For more flavor and less power you could put some points there tho, wouldn't change much.


Monk also gets a feat that improves the build - precision - and healing amp enhancement and better saves. While Space Marines excel at melee combat, they excel at ALL THINGS. With Int:Damage for all weapons, there is no reason you cannot use a melee weapon with keen or impact with this build effectively if you wanted, but it would still be weaker than your bolter.


Yep! Sure does, esp with good hamp gear. Doubleshot is more damage tho.




It comes up short, as does everything evaluated against a Space Marine!


It should be really bad, but you need extremely high AC values for it to make a noticible difference in the amount of damage you take in EE quests. With 210 PRR you take something like 32% of base damage so I don't care as much about being hit. Also, as a ranged build with +10% move speed this is fully able to avoid being hit with enough movement, which I learned to do when I had 60 PRR on a monkcher and actually needed to.


I think hamp comes out to like +165 from gear and enhancements; Positive spell power depends on how you gear it, but getting it over 200 shouldn't be a problem at all. I need to type up the gear for the forums still.

Of important note:
This isn't actually a flavor build. The twists are, but the build itself, at its core, is oppressively strong, and while it requires some minor tweaks and the build information is veiled in 40k lore for my(and other's) amusement, it is top tier, both on paper and in practice. The difference between this build and the u23 Monkcher build that I took into some early MOD completions and speed runs is so profound I don't even consider them in the same tier.

[Spekdah_NZ]

I was wondering about a hybrid between something like this and my old monkcher (typical 12M/6R/2P). Wanted to keep my longbow as it's the only mortal fear weapon I have and it would be a while before I could add it again to another weapon, and would like this char to stay ranged.

Was thinking of 6Mnk/6Rng/8rog. This gets me all the needed feats for both longbow and repeater use. Enhancement points being so tight I have to move those over from AA to mechanic and harper. Would not need wis and could drop zen archery/10K stars. So staying with repeater and flipping to MS, for burst or furyshot. But ... it does not have holy sword/grtr defensive stance from OP build, and is missing Impr.evasion from original build so kinda really sucky. That leaves possibly going 10rog to go the evasion route/SA route, or possibly dropping monk altogether for more paladin to pick up greater stance, or both with something like 10r/6r/4p for both options but then only have 1st tier def stance. arrrrrggghhhhhhh

I like the original build but cannot find away to stay bladeforged and also pick up manyshot (he is not a completionist). BF I find is a disadvantage here to since if I want to wear heavy armour need another feat.

[Cain]

Hey there,

First off really want to say thank you Poppy, I was the one that talked your ear off for quite awhile on Khyber today and really appreciated you taking the time. I did end up LRing my character Cainnan to this build though due to class setup I had to tinker with it quite a bit regarding when to take the classes. Still really enjoying it so far and look forward to when I hit 20 to get holy sword. I did end up going arti as I'm first lifer so I don't have the heavy repeaters to do that alone. Again just wanted to say thanks.



I was wondering about a hybrid between something like this and my old monkcher (typical 12M/6R/2P). Wanted to keep my longbow as it's the only mortal fear weapon I have and it would be a while before I could add it again to another weapon, and would like this char to stay ranged.

Was thinking of 6Mnk/6Rng/8rog. This gets me all the needed feats for both longbow and repeater use. Enhancement points being so tight I have to move those over from AA to mechanic and harper. Would not need wis and could drop zen archery/10K stars. So staying with repeater and flipping to MS, for burst or furyshot. But ... it does not have holy sword/grtr defensive stance from OP build, and is missing Impr.evasion from original build so kinda really sucky. That leaves possibly going 10rog to go the evasion route/SA route, or possibly dropping monk altogether for more paladin to pick up greater stance, or both with something like 10r/6r/4p for both options but then only have 1st tier def stance. arrrrrggghhhhhhh

I like the original build but cannot find away to stay bladeforged and also pick up manyshot (he is not a completionist). BF I find is a disadvantage here to since if I want to wear heavy armour need another feat.


Regarding this, I'm more of a forum lurker than anything else but this seems like it needed to be it's own post. It really has almost nothing to do with this build as you want to stay with bows. You even said NO holy sword, NO greater defensive stance, it wouldn't have the self healing from the paly levels. It's really not at all the same build and doesn't belong in this thread but instead a "would this work" thread. Sorry just felt like it needed to be said as I'm loving this build and would rather see discussions on the build than stuff not even remotely related. There is an actual request a build thread if that's what you're looking for.

[Spekdah_NZ]

Hey there,

First off really want to say thank you Poppy, I was the one that talked your ear off for quite awhile on Khyber today and really appreciated you taking the time. I did end up LRing my character Cainnan to this build though due to class setup I had to tinker with it quite a bit regarding when to take the classes. Still really enjoying it so far and look forward to when I hit 20 to get holy sword. I did end up going arti as I'm first lifer so I don't have the heavy repeaters to do that alone. Again just wanted to say thanks.

Regarding this, I'm more of a forum lurker than anything else but this seems like it needed to be it's own post. It really has almost nothing to do with this build as you want to stay with bows. You even said NO holy sword, NO greater defensive stance, it wouldn't have the self healing from the paly levels. It's really not at all the same build and doesn't belong in this thread but instead a "would this work" thread. Sorry just felt like it needed to be said as I'm loving this build and would rather see discussions on the build than stuff not even remotely related. There is an actual request a build thread if that's what you're looking for.

I didn't say no to anything, was weighing up the options and costs of different class splits, just farting neurons really. Wasn't trying to hijack. I was thinking to take this build and also fit in manyshot to switch from repeaters for a fury shot then back again, but I wrote before thinking! Just not enough APs of course to get slayer arrow, or even the subpar sniper shot to work with adrenaline; would stretch AP's a bit far.

With holy sword being so strong ... IMO edges out 18 rogue for expert builder as another ranged build. U23 Monkcher with Pally/harper was kinda meh, but with the announced mechanic changes this combo seems much stronger.

[Ladislaio]

Hey there,

First off really want to say thank you Poppy, I was the one that talked your ear off for quite awhile on Khyber today and really appreciated you taking the time. I did end up LRing my character Cainnan to this build though due to class setup I had to tinker with it quite a bit regarding when to take the classes. Still really enjoying it so far and look forward to when I hit 20 to get holy sword. I did end up going arti as I'm first lifer so I don't have the heavy repeaters to do that alone. Again just wanted to say thanks.

It was a really good chat so thank YOU, I look forward to running with you in epics!


Thank you for taking the time to respond to each, and every, point of my post.

Your questions greatly amused me and were reasonible, so it was my pleasure! Also way easier than remembering one of my photo upload site's logins...


Besides Legendary Dreadnought (which, I presume, includes lay waste and the like? Or is it more like stat and action boosts?).

I will get the SS of my LD / Enhancment trees up today, I hope. It is boosts and stats, no lay waste, no melee support in this build really. The repeater is more than strong enough as is.



Could a player substitute LD for another destiny like Divine Crusader, or Unyielding Sentinel?

Yes. LD > Divine Crusade > Shiradi > Fatesinger would be my suggestion for each sphere, in descending order.



As far as Precision goes, I think you can select it with just about any class, and I thought arti's could pick one feat upon taking first level?

They actually get two feats you need - Rapid Reload and xbow prof - which I had overlooked the RR. The nice chat yesterday pointed that out to me :) I suggest going with a level of arti early, level 1-3, instead of monk for leveling builds and first life toons.



Also, I thought the movement speed only applied as long as you're not wearing heavy armor?

Rogue movement speed only applies if you are wearing light or no armor. The movement speed improvement for this build comes from the Sacred Defender tree.



Thanks (I am; looking for a build that can really cream Epics for easier ETR farming)! :)
I would suggest going with 1 arti for this, so you can use the good light and heavy repeaters while TR'n. I would also like to point out, as it was to me earlier in game, that some shifts in the AP allotment can make the build better for particular situations, but I am *far* to lazy to explain.

[Ziindarax]

Okay, I've TR'ed into the PDK variant, and I tried to set up the stats and what not as it was labeled. Am I doing something wrong that I do not have 500+ hp by level 16? I am sitting at 406 hp at level 16, but I've yet to get enough of the action points to get the greater stance boosts... also finding it more beneficial to wear light armor as the mrr/PRR isn't high enough to mitigate enough incoming physical damage.

Advice?

[Ladislaio]

Okay, I've TR'ed into the PDK variant, and I tried to set up the stats and what not as it was labeled. Am I doing something wrong that I do not have 500+ hp by level 16? I am sitting at 406 hp at level 16, but I've yet to get enough of the action points to get the greater stance boosts... also finding it more beneficial to wear light armor as the mrr/PRR isn't high enough to mitigate enough incoming physical damage.

Advice?

Hp shoots up a lot with particular gear - do you have false life 40, greensteel hp, and con 6/8?

My no-raid gear tr with the Shadar-kai variant has 85 prr 74 mrr 462 hp 34/32/26 saves 55 hamp and 36 int at level 16, in stance, with ship buffs.

Ap spread is currently 15 Sacred Defender, 37 Mechanic, 1 Knight of the Chalice, and 12 Harper agent.

I find that my hp is more than enough as long as I don't stand in a trap, and with that PRR I don't bother kiting currently except to line up IPS.

Is that helpful?

[Ziindarax]

Hp shoots up a lot with particular gear - do you have false life 40, greensteel hp, and con 6/8?

My no-raid gear tr with the Shadar-kai variant has 85 prr 74 mrr 462 hp 34/32/26 saves 55 hamp and 36 int at level 16, in stance, with ship buffs.

Ap spread is currently 15 Sacred Defender, 37 Mechanic, 1 Knight of the Chalice, and 12 Harper agent.

I find that my hp is more than enough as long as I don't stand in a trap, and with that PRR I don't bother kiting currently except to line up IPS.

Is that helpful?

Here are my stats - Healing amp is 60, 36 int with buff (about the same), and I should have most, if not all, the same health boosting buffs. 61 PRR, 45 MRR in Defender's Plate, with stances. On the PRR bit, I think this is because I've only got one PL for PRR, while you probably have all the divine + PDK. MRR is a bit touchy. As far as saves for my PDK goes at level 16, he's got 36 fort, 34 reflex, and 28 saves - from pdk cloak.

As far as health items go, I have the health belt (fully done), Minos Legens, Litany, and a con 6 item. Currently banking 17... I do not have any barbarian past lives, so that might be it (if I can find any loot to slot greater false life, I should be able to approach 460). In terms of health items, I have an epic Seraphim's helm, epic minos, upgraded Eidolon Necklace, and the epic belt of thoughtful remembrance (seeing as the health can be matched by augments, I might be able to get away with making a GS mineral helm so I can have the Mysterious Cloak [level 21]).

Might need some help on the gearing.

Edit: Found part of the problem - turns out I was wearing medium armor - with heavy armor, I am getting 78 PRR and 55 MRR... Still short of what you're getting though. :/

[Ladislaio]

Here are my stats - Healing amp is 60, 36 int with buff (about the same), and I should have most, if not all, the same health boosting buffs. 61 PRR, 45 MRR in Defender's Plate, with stances. On the PRR bit, I think this is because I've only got one PL for PRR, while you probably have all the divine + PDK. MRR is a bit touchy. As far as saves for my PDK goes at level 16, he's got 36 fort, 34 reflex, and 28 saves - from pdk cloak.

...

Might need some help on the gearing.

Edit: Found part of the problem - turns out I was wearing medium armor - with heavy armor, I am getting 78 PRR and 55 MRR... Still short of what you're getting though. :/

You can get a 10 PRR/MRR blue aug at level 16 from the GH trader that would be worth slotting, I believe that I had a +8 slotted at the time that I took down my stats. The toon that I took these stats off of is Poppytart, who only has 1 PDK past life (she is my least built active toon, this is actually to get her third paladin past life and then she's back to some flavor of melee).

The shadowfel prison quests have some lovely lv 15 gear as end rewards you should look into, namely a +8 int goggle and a +40 HP belt; These and other items from there are very nice to have for iconic TR's.

Defensively when you reach the epics you will want the ml 19 Gaurdian's Ring from WGU end reward, which gives 24 PRR / MRR, a level 21 cloak, and one of the hamp 60 items (such as PDK gloves). I'll be resorting and cleaning up Poppytart's gear when she reached level 24(3bc) and give you an update on what her stats and layout is. Right now she's a total mess, but still preforming well in EE's.

[Jumpnshoot]

Poppy, a few comments on stuff I've noticed with this build.

I would change around the levels a bit and almost certainly recommend the arty version as opposed to the monk.

First, I'd make lev 1, arty. That gets you the trapping skills to start out, plus, both repeater types. Also, it gets you the conjure bolts spell, which, from playing through at level 1, bolts are a huge issue for this build in early levels. I know you recommended flame arrow, but the wands are level 5 with a 28 umd required. At level 9, I'm only at 21 UMD, admittedly with **** gear. With the current build, you also don't get the rogue returning bolt ability til very late anyways so conjure bolts is very important especially if you run out of wands of flame arrow.

Secondary bonuses include getting rapid reload for free and also the two repeaters for free. This opens up a free feat since you're no longer taking either of those, but now have to take precision as one of your level up feats. A secondary note on the repeaters, you can't take the heavy repeater feat at lev 1 because rouge doesn't have a +1bab at lev 1. You also get spellcraft as a class skill, which is useful to take for eburst (if you decide not to go for flavor twists). Finally, arty is int for sp and that's more useful than ki since you're uncentered anyways.

I would also move the rogue levels to 16-20 to pick up holy sword earlier and also to maximize the rogue's skill points.

You lose 2 reflex and fort saves compared to monk and 5% heal amp, but I think it's worth it given the pally build. You could use the extra feat from arty to get one of the +2 saves back. Also, you can add an additional +10% hp from enhancements by dropping the shinto monk core.

Those are my thoughts at level 9. Will give you some more feedback as I reach late teens to epics.

[moo_cow]

Poppy, a few comments on stuff I've noticed with this build.

I would change around the levels a bit and almost certainly recommend the arty version as opposed to the monk.

First, I'd make lev 1, arty. That gets you the trapping skills to start out, plus, both repeater types. Also, it gets you the conjure bolts spell, which, from playing through at level 1, bolts are a huge issue for this build in early levels. I know you recommended flame arrow, but the wands are level 5 with a 28 umd required. At level 9, I'm only at 21 UMD, admittedly with **** gear.

Secondary bonuses include getting rapid reload for free and also the two repeaters for free. This opens up a free feat since you're no longer taking either of those, but now have to take precision as one of your level up feats. A secondary note on the repeaters, you can't take the heavy repeater feat at lev 1 because rouge doesn't have a +1bab at lev 1. You also get spellcraft as a class skill, which is useful to take for eburst (if you decide not to go for flavor twists).

I would also move the rogue levels to 16-20 to pick up holy sword earlier and also to maximize the rogue's skill points.

You lose 2 reflex and fort saves compared to monk and 5% heal amp, but I think it's worth it given the pally build. You could use the extra feat from arty to get one of the +2 saves back. Also, you can add an additional +10% hp from enhancements by dropping the shinto monk core.

Those are my thoughts at level 9. Will give you some more feedback as I reach late teens to epics.

Make all your bolts before you jump in a quest, unnecessary to have conjure bolts when you can get more damage for free.

[Jumpnshoot]

Make all your bolts before you jump in a quest, unnecessary to have conjure bolts when you can get more damage for free.

Not possible at low levels, and even at mid levels it takes a while to make enough bolts for a session. This is similar to the problem that artys had when bolts were only in stacks of 100. I don't like standing there for 5 minutes trying to get enough bolts before questing.

[moo_cow]

Not possible at low levels, and even at mid levels it takes a while to make enough bolts for a session. This is similar to the problem that artys had when bolts were only in stacks of 100. I don't like standing there for 5 minutes trying to get enough bolts before questing.

You should have plenty of umd by level 7-9. If not you are missing equipment. Not no fail of course, but you should be able to cast them fairly easy. I was level 8 when I started casting mine.

5 minutes? It takes literally 20-30 seconds.

[Jumpnshoot]

You should have plenty of umd by level 7-9. If not you are missing equipment. Not no fail of course, but you should be able to cast them fairly easy. I was level 8 when I started casting mine.

5 minutes? It takes literally 20-30 seconds.

Thank you Mr. Know it all. Looks like you still missed the part of not possible at low levels. Oh, and the fact that what you're saying doesn't match up with real life play or how I want to play. But yeah, go ahead and be condescending. And people wonder why the forums are avoided.

[Blackheartox]

Thank you Mr. Know it all. Looks like you still missed the part of not possible at low levels. Oh, and the fact that what you're saying doesn't match up with real life play or how I want to play. But yeah, go ahead and be condescending. And people wonder why the forums are avoided.

But...
He was spot on with what he said /:

Im slightly confused with your reply

[Jumpnshoot]

But...
He was spot on with what he said /:

Im slightly confused with your reply

No he wasn't. Not even close. You cannot use wands of flame arrow until level 5 at the earliest. Therefore getting enough bolts at low levels is a pain. Furthermore, with lower UMD, it does take a while before you conjure enough bolts for an adventure. 2 successful castings is not enough for one quest sometimes, let alone a night of gaming. I prefer by far to have most of my bolts cast shortly after login so I don't have to worry about them. However, I go through them very fast. The rogue's bolt returning ability doesn't show up until level 13-14 (can't remember when he goes back to rogue and lev 19 in my version) so that's not a solution.

Regardless, I need to step away from this thread before getting into a flame war. Suffice it to say, no, at early levels, the wand of flame arrow is not a good solution. And having conjure bolts as a backup even in higher levels is a nice backup. To blithely say that all you have to do is conjure enough bolts before the adventure is both shortsighted and ignores the times where you just login and see a group you want and join right away. The realities of the game is that most LFMs are IP and you want to get there to contribute. Spending more than a few seconds making bolts (e.g. 2 conjure bolts casts) does take time, especially if you don't have no fail UMD.

[Ziindarax]

Having experimented with this build and getting a past life, I've determined that this build is much too fragile. Running EE is possible, but considering how glass-cannon-y it is, it's best to run with a group. There's absolutely NOTHING "Space Marine" about it aside from fear/disease immunity, and solid DPS from ranged. Still, it's better than some of the warlock builds I've encountered/built (seems some stealth changes were snuck in when it hit live).

Very weak self-healing - must twist Rejuvenating Cocoon to shore up some of the weakness, especially in combat. It gets a little more survivable with Crusader running healing from killing mobs, and from the Crusader heal, though.

DPS is as advertised (which is to say, it's phenomenal!) , however I couldn't really get IPS to work all that great. That being said, it IS pretty good for non-Epic Elite quests, and at epic Levels, is capable of Soloing ToD (given Silver Bolts to bypass Devil DR, and running Crusader for good-aligned weapons - that, and you find some way to kill Nyhterios [sp?] while keeping the shadows away from you). In fact, if you want a build to clear Epic Normal/hard Daily farms, this build can do the job given it's ability to handle traps even at Epic Elite.

[macadope]

Having experimented with this build and getting a past life, I've determined that this build is much too fragile. Running EE is possible, but considering how glass-cannon-y it is, it's best to run with a group. There's absolutely NOTHING "Space Marine" about it aside from fear/disease immunity, and solid DPS from ranged. Still, it's better than some of the warlock builds I've encountered/built (seems some stealth changes were snuck in when it hit live).

Very weak self-healing - must twist Rejuvenating Cocoon to shore up some of the weakness, especially in combat. It gets a little more survivable with Crusader running healing from killing mobs, and from the Crusader heal, though.

DPS is as advertised (which is to say, it's phenomenal!) , however I couldn't really get IPS to work all that great. That being said, it IS pretty good for non-Epic Elite quests, and at epic Levels, is capable of Soloing ToD (given Silver Bolts to bypass Devil DR, and running Crusader for good-aligned weapons - that, and you find some way to kill Nyhterios [sp?] while keeping the shadows away from you). In fact, if you want a build to clear Epic Normal/hard Daily farms, this build can do the job given it's ability to handle traps even at Epic Elite.

Lol. 14pali/5rogue/1x is the most op build in the game right now. Sounds like user error.

[Knight_slayer]

Lol. 14pali/5rogue/1x is the most op build in the game right now. Sounds like user error.

What do you think would be a good test for that statment? Solo EE FoT and MA have been dominated by AA's, do you think the pally/rogue could compete with AA's in these raids?

[Jumpnshoot]

So comments at 28.

Ran a full blitz with 15 archers focus and all that, 3k crit, lots of damage and doubleshot. I think I may go evasion build tho. Gives up about 200 hp so down to 800, but still have good prr/mrr. Fun to play and nice build.

[jakeelala]

What about a 14Paladin/6 Ranger that swaps to Manyshot off cooldown (Harper gives Int to Damage for xbow and bow).

DWS isn't as good as Mechanic, but Sniper Shot is Godly, and so is Many Shot + Holy Sword.

What do you see being the significant drawbacks of this variation? I understand you have a theme going here, but if someone wasn't really concerned about that...

[Ladislaio]

What do you think would be a good test for that statment? Solo EE FoT and MA have been dominated by AA's, do you think the pally/rogue could compete with AA's in these raids?

I would say yes, it could, although the AA style builds strongly favor raids, where their massive burst damage can easily be aligned against the massive sacks of HP they call raid bosses.

From the point of view of stats, you are able to get more HP, PRR, MRR, and move speed this build outperforms any similar DPS AA build. Having said that I do not particularly enjoy soloing or trying to nickle and dime the run time of quests to as low as I can get it so I am unable to provide a better explanation than on paper.
I would be willing to bet an Otto's stone on Khyber that as of u26 a 14 paladin 5 rogue 1x build can play more consistently than a 14 paladin 6 monk build, while being capable of completing the same content under the same conditions.
I'm not sure if the split is the *most* OP split right now, but it is without a doubt one of the best survivible DPS builds currently in game.


... I've determined that this build is much too fragile. ...
I've seen this build face tank the TO in FoT and the large male dragon "Big Boy" or "Fatty" in EE FoTP, so I'm not sure how you can consider this to be "too fragile". Perhaps you should build a paladin/warlock tank with max PRR and HP that goes S&B.


... must twist Rejuvenating Cocoon ...
I generally consider that twist a given for fleshies, and the twist is listed on the ideal suggested twists. Having said that for a typical ranged toon Rejuvenation Cocoon works quite well as the only healing source for most ranged builds, and this build has LoH and the possiblity of getting Unyielding Sovereignty for even more healing. Hamp items are a must have tho IMO. Also if you are close enough to the trash to get healing procs from Divine Crusader you are likely not kiting at all, or well if you are trying to kite, so you are giving up the defensive advantage of being ranged.


... however I couldn't really get IPS to work all that great.
Not getting IPS to work well is a player skill issue for any ranged dps build, and failure to do it well will dramatically impact the performance of the build. Remember killing stuff before it reaches you and kiting it so you don't take damage is better than having top tier healing.


What about a 14Paladin/6 Ranger that swaps to Manyshot off cooldown (Harper gives Int to Damage for xbow and bow).

DWS isn't as good as Mechanic, but Sniper Shot is Godly, and so is Many Shot + Holy Sword.

What do you see being the significant drawbacks of this variation? I understand you have a theme going here, but if someone wasn't really concerned about that...
The theme is more of a joke to make the build amusing to me.
I think that the way manyshot plays with doubleshot right now and the general weakness of the DWS tree outside of Sniper Shot (which I love and miss having a lot) makes this build weaker. Keep in mind that using the paladin defensive stance makes it very very hard to go with a fury build that is effective.
I do think that that idea has some potential, particularly if any changes to manyshot or DWS happen.


I would change around the levels a bit and almost certainly recommend the arty version as opposed to the monk.
...

As the build was written from 28 down the level order is quite possibly non-ideal. A lot of people on my server who have tried this or similar builds prefer going with level 1 arti for the build (Bolts bolts bolts as you have said)


On a personal note, I've moved over to using a different build which I think is strictly weaker in every way except 1) it runs faster and 2) it is a halfling. I am likely to repraise this build on a secondary toon and update the post accordingly, but I'm not sure how long in the future that would be. Thank you so much for all of the feedback everyone who has tried this build!

p.s. I choose not to update this build based upon the feedback, but I will say that revisions to this build that I have seen are preforming better than the initially posted version did. I strongly recommend that if you enjoy this build you play around with it to determine how you would like it to be, it is surprisingly flexible to get it to fit your taste.

[LargoKeyWest]

Can't take Heavy Repeater for a first life, 1st level Feat.

[Saaluta]

Hey Poppy,

With the recent changes to PRR/MRR in heavy armor, might it not be better to go medium(to take advantage of the higher level sacred defender enhancements) or even light armor (to take advantage of dodge/evasion (if monsters get close enough)). Just hoping to get your thoughts on this :)

Saal :)