So Vargouille and Devs, about ToEE's and Saves and changes from Lamannia:

[Wizza]

I had the opportunity to run ToEE part 1 yesterday and notice the differences with the Lama version and the live version. Some things changed in better, some things are way worse. I'll touch saves after. Green numbers mean a positive change, red numbers means a negative change or not change at all, yellow numbers means "what the F?".

This is my latest feedback on Lamannia, simplified:



1) Archers are now the most dangerous mobs in the game. They hit for 200+ (200!!!!!) damage with 40% damage reduction from 68 PRR caster. And you encounter at least 6-10 of them EACH AND EVERY ENCOUNTER in part 1. Ridicolous.
2) Goristro barbarian can LITERALLY one shot casters with their throw attack. STILL a sack of HP too.

(Combat): Goristro Barbarian hit you for 967 points of bludgeon damage.
(Combat): Goristro Barbarian hit you for 984 points of bludgeon damage.

EDIT: Just to make it clear, the damage from the throw attack is fine since it's actually slow and can be avoided by just running around but I don't quite like that, in the end fight, a bad combination of spells like Earthquake or the Destruction wave where you can't move and his throw attack can make you killed like that. Doesn't change the fact that he has way too many HP.

3) Endfight in part 2 had Hezrous and Dretches ranged damage each doing OVER 200 damage. At some point, my friend and I wondered "are there invisible archers or what?". Their ranged animation are just similar to arrows. Imagine 3 150k HP Hezrous, 10 dretches and 1 Goristro spamming ranged attack. Yeah, it was annoying. The Goristro in this fight is just stupid.
4) At some points, mobs saw through invisibility with no buffs when examined. Noticed this occuring 3-4 times. Also, some random mob non-champion had See Invisibility randomly.
5) Why do we have to use doors now?

6) Earth temple:

- Earth Elementals hit for way too much, ignore displacement and STILL are a sack of HP.

(Combat): Earth Temple Elemental hit you for 537 points of bludgeon damage.

- Rowag was doing more Melee damage than with Spells.

7) Fire temple:

- Insta red alert if you start the fight
- The boss is a kite fest since he hits you for 300+ for each damage and is super fast
- Salamanders cannot be CCed with over 70 DC, debuffs included, but I'll get to the saves later.

8) Water temple:

- Gelatinous Cube was doing 10 dmg per tick. The most BORING boss ever. Of course, 200k HP or something around that probably.

9) Air Temple:

- Kelno also doing more damage in Melee than with spells. His KD is annoying.

10) Something is screwy about mobs' aggro. They aggro even when they are FAR away and we are in a different room.
11) Insta red alert on the beginning of part 2 as well.
12) The XP is horrible. 49k for part 1, really?

13) On the new debuff: My friend and I have noticed a whole total of..ZERO MOBS USING THIS DEBUFF. And we killed a lot of them, counting we spent more than 3 hours tonight in the quests.


1) They hit for a bit less now. Noticed some of them hitting for 150, some still hitting for 200 but not as many as they used to be.
2) You nerfed the damage of the throw attack into the oblivion. It now hits for 100 dmg, which brings this boss to the boring sack of HP that he was in the first found of Lamannia. I would have liked it to hit still hard but not as hard as 1k HP for low PRR toons. My main issue was just the one shot part in the endfight but I guess you just ignored that.
3) Haven't run P2 yet, will test later.
4) Random mobs still with See Invisibility for absolutely no reasons. Alert is still horrible but you acknowledged that in some other forum replies.
5) Wtvr.
6) No changes were made. I don't get why these ignore Displacement. Just remove Displacement from the game if you wanna randomly give TS to mobs. I'll touch on their saves later.
Romag is still useless but at least he has 20k HP so not a sack of HP.
7) I used the Platinum option as I was low on mana. Cannot comment on that
8) 8) This was fixed, now the gelatinous Cube is a sack of HP doing 200 dmg per tick in a 1x1x1 room. The fact that he does more damage is good but seriously, this room is just stupid. And a Gelatinous Cube boss is one of the most boring bosses ever.
9) Kelno, oh Kelno.

http://i59.tinypic.com/2uhn1g0.jpg

328k HP boss in a DUO and no shrine nearby. Do I need to say more? Yes I do. But saves will come later, with moar pics.

10) Again, absolutely no change from Lamannia.

http://i60.tinypic.com/152lvgp.jpg

Watch as we have Green Alert with zero mobs around us. Needless to say, we even got Yellow AND Orange as we stepped closer to the doors (without opening them) because mobs on the other side of the doors were already aggroed on us for some reason.

11) Acknowledged.
12) XP was better, but would probably be good to up it a little more.


Saves:




Everything is STILL saving EVERY.SINGLE.SPELL. Cultists are saving from my spells, Earth Elementals in the Earth temple are saving from it, CCed mobs on top of Solid fog and Waves of Exhaustion and 65 DC are saving from them.

Kelno was saving from every single spell, Gargoyles were saving from them. Archers well, they are archers..AND THEY ARE EVERYWHERE. Every red named was saving from my spells. Archers cannot be CCed as well on top of Mind fog and Crushing Despair, Salamanders idem, Hezrous and Dretches not even close.

You still need to work A LOT on the saves because right now it's absolutely annoying and actually frustrating to play as a Caster in this quest. My friend can confirm: I've never been so frustrated with a quest like I was tonight. Every single thing in this quest punishes Casters and low PRR toons, from archers hitting for 200 with every hit, to mobs having insane Saves, to the few shrines (still no shrine before part 2 endfight?).

Here is a log of my chat, when I tried to cast spells (you know, I'm a caster, that's what I do):

http://i62.tinypic.com/10zr8xu.jpg

Every spell is Lightning bolt, and it can rebound. Every rebound was saved as well. No spells were casted in between. When I said in chat "lets debuff", he still kept saving to every single spell. This was with 65 Evocation DC + Waves of Exhaustion + Solid Fog, effectively 73 Evocation DC. This is how ridicolous your quest is.

Oh my, oh my. There were absolutely zero changes on the saves side. Z E R O. I went in, went to the Gargoyles. Save. Every Reflex-based spell was saved. I could Hold and CC them just fine and they would STILL save when Held. CR 51 cultists were saving 95% of the times while the End boss of part 1, Falrnith, was not. I was crying in joy when I finally got to see full damage on ONE mob.

Wanna talk about the almighty Kelno? He is a caster.

These were his debuffs:

http://i60.tinypic.com/30js7rs.jpg

This is my Evocation DC during his fight, this is the most reasonable DC that a Sorcerer could achieve, not counting twisting 4 Charismas and taking up to 6 points of Charisma in the Epic Destiny which is effectively gimping you:

http://i59.tinypic.com/25r049c.jpg

I had an effective DC of: 67 + 5 (Solid fog) + 3 (Waves of Exhaustion) = 75 Evocation DC.

This is the result:

http://i58.tinypic.com/nv63pc.jpg
http://i62.tinypic.com/mr5nhd.jpg
http://i57.tinypic.com/14np9j8.jpg

I can post as many as you want of these. EVERY SINGLE SPELL WAS SAVED. Not only that: this guy has 320k HP AND he is resistant to every single element.


Let's move on to a different mob, Earth Elemental (or any Elemental, which I complained about on Lama as well):

http://i62.tinypic.com/2a8q35s.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/x2s747.jpg

Please tell me one picture is enough, don't wanna bother with more of them again. 70 Evocation DC, these mobs are immune to Solid Fog (why? I don't seem to recall Elementals being immune to Solid Fog in the past).



Freedom of Movement

And now ladies and gentleman, let's move on the a newly introduced mechanic that was not on Lamannia: the random Freedom of Movement on group of mobs that cannot be seen in their buffs:

http://i59.tinypic.com/n3u2wh.jpg

You can clearly see the FoM icon over their head, right? So you check their buffs and this is what you see:

http://i58.tinypic.com/2jesew6.jpg

FoM is right th-. Wait what, where is FoM? Oh sorry, you have to waste 200 SP to find out they have FoM. Too bad you are not a Barbarian.


I dare you to tell me again that Saves are WAI, where CR 51 mobs Save every single spell and the endboss does not, where 75 Evocation DC which is nearly maxed fails 95% of the time AGAINST MELEES AND CASTERS and the other 5% of the time I get the "You are not facing this pillar" message.

The Barbarian Update has arrived.

[walkin_dude]

I got only two comments, really, since I haven't got the pack yet (still about 75 TP short).

Sounds like an appropriately difficult end-game quest. I did see one forum post so far, however, characterizing ToEE as "too easy."

It doesn't seem surprising that a mob 23 levels higher than you has really good saving throws.

[Tinco]

Worth a commendation for the repeatedly constructive effort from the damage caster perspective.

I haven't fought neither the cube nor the goristro on live though, there's just no incentive not to bail.

[BigErkyKid]

Bumping you. This shouldn't be in general discussion, but everything is in general discussion nowadays. I guessed that focused discussion threads are for the weak.

Now, excellent detailed feedback. Well done.

[Blackheartox]

It is not about the hard/easy approach but more about how much this update is forcing sorc players to bench their sorcs and to either tr to barbs or play alt barbs.

That is main issue, but il see once i test for myself today, saves were greatly reduced so i have no complaints since we can at least do something

[cyreme]

I'm sympathetic to many points you make. Kelno hp is silly and mob buffs, especially surreptitious ones are annoying. Most bats and oozes in nodes can see invis. By default. Not sure why that is. That said, some part of your comments is specific to playing caster and DC casting is not in a good place right now. I remember the time when casters owned the game and well-geared and well-build caster could solo practically any quest on any difficulty. Whether it's the consequence of the power creep or what, but DC casting is in a crappy spot and has been for a while. Monster champions only exacerbated this issue. That's why I don't play my caster anymore. Too frustrating. I hope devs listen, some of your points are important to make this quest better. But worse case scenario: find some martial toons to run with. I doubt DC casting is gonna get the fix any time soon :(

[Rhysem]

There's a way for everyone to deal with earthies easy. That you aren't is your own fault. Also works in the last battle. Just sayin'.

I wouldn't be too surprised to find more things like that builtin that I just didn't happen to find in my run.

[Wizza]

Don't have much time to reply to everyone right now, I'll do it later.


There's a way for everyone to deal with earthies easy. That you aren't is your own fault. Also works in the last battle. Just sayin'.

I wouldn't be too surprised to find more things like that builtin that I just didn't happen to find in my run.

I know, this is from my hotbar of yesterday's run.

http://i59.tinypic.com/xp4lrm.jpg

If you read more carefully, my complaint is about any red named Elemental (since I haven't run P2, so I cannot check the non-red named ones)

[Tinco]

There's a way for everyone to deal with earthies easy. That you aren't is your own fault. Also works in the last battle. Just sayin'.

That's not the point. These elementals have (undocumented) true seeing, ghost touch, fom and a hefty movement speed buff for very little reason. They are already extremely dangerous enemies from their damage, saves and hp alone, adding these bonus buffs almost completely negates the option of fighting them instead of getting the club.

[Andoris]

Freedom of Movement

And now ladies and gentleman, let's move on the a newly introduced mechanic that was not on Lamannia: the random Freedom of Movement on group of mobs that cannot be seen in their buffs:

http://i59.tinypic.com/n3u2wh.jpg

You can clearly see the FoM icon over their head, right? So you check their buffs and this is what you see:

http://i58.tinypic.com/2jesew6.jpg

FoM is right th-. Wait what, where is FoM? Oh sorry, you have to waste 200 SP to find out they have FoM. Too bad you are not a Barbarian.



This here was a major issue. Giving half the mobs FoM and the other half deathward (and some both) while we have no (reasonable) way to remove it due to the uselessness of dispel/disjunction when cast by player; is just silly.

Having the mobs self-cast FoM or deathward is one thing.. at least then if I get in the first shot we have a chance. When they already start with it, it is just annoying.

The worst part is that it did little to stop us from CC'ing the mobs.. just you dancing ball instead. What it did do was to remove the helpless damage from the hold.. helpless damage that melee's could care less about as they already kill everything in one to two swings. However, casters with their much lower dps numbers need that helpless damage to help mitigate excessive spell point usage.

[Raithe]

The worst part is that it did little to stop us from CC'ing the mobs.. just you dancing ball instead. What it did do was to remove the helpless damage from the hold.. helpless damage that melee's could care less about as they already kill everything in one to two swings. However, casters with their much lower dps numbers need that helpless damage to help mitigate excessive spell point usage.

I'm not having any trouble at all holding selective mobs in ToEE on EE:

http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums/q509/raithe-nor/DDO-Arcanes_zpsinwvrvot.jpg (http://s1161.photobucket.com/user/raithe-nor/media/DDO-Arcanes_zpsinwvrvot.jpg.html)

As for running out of spell points, Turbine installed a bunch of ridiculous mechanics:

1) Abilities like Immolation and Conduction: I take my metamagics off and just pound the 300k hp bosses with scorching ray (8 sp per cast). Immolation winds up doing 1k damage per tick, while the scorching rays are doing about 500. At 4100 spell points (roughly - it varies a lot depending on the outfit I'm wearing) that would be (4100 / 8) = 512 * 500 (+ 1000 / 2) = 512,000 hit points of damage. And I didn't even have to use a mana pot.

2) Fey tap: 5 x 200 spell points per shrine, Spellsong vigor

3) Mana pots by the hundreds

4) 10% spell efficiency or better

Casters are still ridiculously overpowered. The fact that they made melee equally ridiculous just shows how harmful and damaging posts like these are to the health of the game - and the playerbase.

[Eth]

1) Abilities like Immolation and Conduction: I take my metamagics off and just pound the 300k hp bosses with scorching ray (4 sp per cast). Immolation winds up doing 1k damage per tick, while the scorching rays are doing about 500. At 4100 spell points (roughly - it varies a lot depending on the outfit I'm wearing) that would be (4100 / 4) = 1025 * 500 (+ 1000 / 2) = 1,025,000 hit points of damage. And I didn't even have to use a mana pot.


Scorching ray costs 8 SP base.
Emptying your 4100 SP pool by casting scorching ray (at 8 SP per cast) would be 512 casts, which takes about 15 minutes.

[Raithe]

Scorching ray costs 8 SP base.
Emptying your 4100 SP pool by casting scorching ray (at 8 SP per cast) would be 512 casts, which takes about 15 minutes.

I knew it was a power of 2, I've corrected my math.

As for taking 15 minutes, that would be if I wanted to achieve the very best efficiency I could. Nowadays I have a lot of other things (EDs, etc) to add to the pot.

[Eth]

I knew it was a power of 2, I've corrected my math.

As for taking 15 minutes, that would be if I wanted to achieve the very best efficiency I could. Nowadays I have a lot of other things (EDs, etc) to add to the pot.

I just wanted to point out that this SP efficient casting also takes forever and isn't great DPS either.


By the way no one was complaining about holding mobs. Some entire encounters are buffed with FoM. You can't hold those, period. Which may or may not be fine. I'm personally Ok with it, although I totally agree it should be visible when examining and it shouldn't be autogranted, but actually cast by the mob itself.

And telling a wizard player (andoris) to make use of immolation and conduction is also kind of funny.

[Andoris]

And telling a wizard player (andoris) to make use of immolation and conduction is also kind of funny.

Hey, I would love it if they allowed me to take the Savant Trees on my wizard.. that could be really fun :)

[Monkey-Boy]

Just don't bother playing a caster, Turbine doesn't want you to.

[Vanhooger]

CC was dead long ago. DC caster look like they're going same way (I don't see shiradi spammer as a caster).

Have a good caster take lots of pl, lot of gear & resources, but they are so far away from melle that can kill everything on auto attack forever and heal themself with little sp or no sp like barb does.

Caster need to be careful on sp, save, sr, melle do not care about a single thing just auto attack.

Do not tell me that you can use sp pot, using sp pot is not my style.

At this point I wish devs could add something like stamina for melee (even if it has nothing to do with D&D) so they have to stop attaking after a while because they're are fatigued. I can't see any other way to stop melle being demi-god.

[Monkey-Boy]

Even if the mobs have 10x the HP they do not CC still wouldn't be worth the bother. Just get a couple of barbs to cleave everything.

This game is 31 flavors of broken.

[Wizza]

I just wanted to point out that this SP efficient casting also takes forever and isn't great DPS either.


By the way no one was complaining about holding mobs. Some entire encounters are buffed with FoM. You can't hold those, period. Which may or may not be fine. I'm personally Ok with it, although I totally agree it should be visible when examining and it shouldn't be autogranted, but actually cast by the mob itself.

And telling a wizard player (andoris) to make use of immolation and conduction is also kind of funny.

You wanna punish Casters by giving random mobs FoM? Sure. Make it visible thou. And nerf saves so I may actually damage them instead of letting my friend to kill them all while I watch.

Also telling a Sorcerer to spam Scorching Ray unmetaed for 8 SP because Developers can't balance Saves is like telling Barbarians to use a a Wand of Magic Missile.


Also: Abilities in Draconic Incarnation are on a Fortitude Save now instead of Reflex. Can you please fix this bug as well?

[Wizza]

CC was dead long ago. DC caster look like they're going same way (I don't see shiradi spammer as a caster).

Have a good caster take lots of pl, lot of gear & resources, but they are so far away from melle that can kill everything on auto attack forever and heal themself with little sp or no sp like barb does.

Caster need to be careful on sp, save, sr, melle do not care about a single thing just auto attack.

Do not tell me that you can use sp pot, using sp pot is not my style.

At this point I wish devs could add something like stamina for melee (even if it has nothing to do with D&D) so they have to stop attaking after a while because they're are fatigued. I can't see any other way to stop melle being demi-god.

I don't think DC caster and CC in general was dead. Prior to this update, I never felt useless in a quest and I always thought I pulled my weight through the quests.

In this update tho, I feel almost a burden. My DPS is horrible and I can't CC things because of the Random FoM and DI abilities being bugged.

[Ellihor]

Some entire encounters are buffed with FoM. You can't hold those, period. Which may or may not be fine. I'm personally Ok with it, although I totally agree it should be visible when examining and it shouldn't be autogranted, but actually cast by the mob itself.

Wuld be fine if mobs also had some mechanics that couldn't let them be mleed or ranged, or something that brakes the weapons like rust monsters. It sucks after you gear your character to the moon you can't be effective as a caster and can't use your best tools. For some reason Turbine is on a rant for caster these last months and keeps nerfing them even if it's not needed. I don't use to watch DEVs broadcast videos but the few I did they were playing a mlee... guess why

[Vanhooger]

I don't think DC caster and CC in general was dead. Prior to this update, I never felt useless in a quest and I always thought I pulled my weight through the quests.

In this update tho, I feel almost a burden. My DPS is horrible and I can't CC things because of the Random FoM and DI abilities being bugged.

As always I dont explain well what I want to say..I mean CC and DC caster are not needed as much as before cos melee are demi god now, so nobody need CC nowdays.

[Wizza]

As always I dont explain well what I want to say..I mean CC and DC caster are not needed as much as before cos melee are demi god now, so nobody need CC nowdays.

I still enjoy doing it and I like the extra damage from helpless but yeah.


Are you using Evo Specialist from Draconic/Magister and twisting Evo Focus? Are you using spell school augmentation: Evo from either of them?

It seems like if you were able to dance things your character focus was on enchantment, and that worked? Were you able to land reflex spells on dancing or held mobs?

Also were you unable to land reflex spells due to alert they are fixing which adds 8-24 to saves, or reflex spells period even on mobs without alert?

Yes the DI one, not the Magister one. No, why would I use a subpar ability?

My character is not specced in enchantment. No I was not, couldn't land spells even when they were held.

No alert no any fights described (or almost at all in my yesterday's run).

[Monkey-Boy]

Just TR into a barbarian, it's Turbine's plan for everyone.

[Wizza]

Funny fact:

I gave crafting a second look yesterday. The DC on the ability on the weapons has a Reflex DC 90. Knowing Turbine always puts a super low DC on weapons, I did a quick 2+2. This made me think even more (I'm already 90% sure) that the Reflex saves of the mobs are over 80.

[Blackheartox]

Hmm, if you can't land reflex spells on Dex 0 held mobs, and reflex -10 dancing mobs, with another -10 reflex debuff from draconic, that puts the mob saves bonus at CR. Which is about right for archers.

Oh I think I know what they did now. This has to do with the Lam TOEE patch notes where they were changing mob types around so that mobs could be dealt with. Instead of having masses of warrior type mobs like in a normal quest, with too high a fort save for a PM to deal with, they changed the base type to archer, so a PM can instakill them, and so they have low will saves as well. Their saves are probably automatically determined by CR and mob type.

This change means that reflex is all roughly equal to CR. Lemme see if I can find the patch notes for this.

Can you retest using only prismatic spray on trash? If it works, we will know the mobs are all archer base mob types, even if they aren't all archers.

Danced mobs dont get -10 to reflex save, draconic has no -10 reflex debuff, its magister and its useless on sorcs and only ok on caster druids.

Just saying

[General_Gronker]

9) Kelno, oh Kelno.

I don't understand how they could have gotten him so wrong. These are his stats:



Kelno the Prefect: AC 1 (chain mail +1),
MV 12", Level 5 Cleric, hp 32, #AT 1, D
4-9 (mace -/-1), SA spells, SD cloak + 1;
XP 520
First level: command, cure light wounds,
protection from good, purify food &
drink, sanctuary
Second level: hold person, know alignment,
resist fire (x2), silence 15' radius
Third level: cause blindness

[Cetus]

I agree on some points - like kelno being a pure mana drain. But as far as mobs saves go, I disagree - they should be high, and even still I was holding things in a mind fog without really much enchantment investment at all. The fom mobs is a good touch btw, we cast fom - some of our enemies should have it too. Forces us to use other modes of CC.

I don't want everything never saving either, then it's just too easy. I've played my caster in there quite a bit and overall I'm happy with my performance. Drank 3 pots in a full group between both quests.

[Portalcat]

My DC caster typically has the highest kill count in EE ToEE, so I really don't get the complaining here. I'm Necro/Enchant spec as is typical, but I do run in DI with sense weakness twisted to do a lot more damage against groups of held mobs at the cost of a couple points of INT.

Nearly everything in ToEE dances and most can be held. CC is very effective. Most of the stuff that can't be CC'ed gets sliced through with necro spells like butter.




DC casters do particularly well in this content, not that there's anything loot-wise for them in it other than the +7 tomes.

[Vulkoorex]

Wuld be fine if mobs also had some mechanics that couldn't let them be mleed or ranged, or something that brakes the weapons like rust monsters. It sucks after you gear your character to the moon you can't be effective as a caster and can't use your best tools. For some reason Turbine is on a rant for caster these last months and keeps nerfing them even if it's not needed. I don't use to watch DEVs broadcast videos but the few I did they were playing a mlee... guess why


I can see an uproar if they had a spell called "Damage Ward" = immune to all forms of damage.

lol

[Monkey-Boy]

My DC caster typically has the highest kill count in EE ToEE, .

You need to run with better melees.

[Blackheartox]

You need to run with better melees.

My dc caster is barb now ;)

[bartharok]

My dc caster is barb now ;)

And people wonder why they are bored and need more challenge...

[Blackheartox]

And people wonder why they are bored and need more challenge...

nothing to do with challenge, simpy to do with lack of efficiency as a sorc solo in temple with bots for loots.
And casters did fall off a bit behind with melle revamps.

[bartharok]

nothing to do with challenge, simpy to do with lack of efficiency as a sorc solo in temple with bots for loots.
And casters did fall off a bit behind with melle revamps.

Efficiency makes stuff boring faster, since you can get things done faster than new stuff is made.

[Blackheartox]

Efficiency makes stuff boring faster, since you can get things done faster than new stuff is made.
Using 10 average pots in temple when solo for boss fight makes things frustrating real fast as well

[Highlander]

My DC caster typically has the highest kill count in EE ToEE, so I really don't get the complaining here. I'm Necro/Enchant spec as is typical, but I do run in DI with sense weakness twisted to do a lot more damage against groups of held mobs at the cost of a couple points of INT.

Nearly everything in ToEE dances and most can be held. CC is very effective. Most of the stuff that can't be CC'ed gets sliced through with necro spells like butter.

DC casters do particularly well in this content, not that there's anything loot-wise for them in it other than the +7 tomes.

Portal - could you quantify your standard DC's on key spells?
Some people are saying they can't land anything, others are saying they can land everything.
Would help if we quantify and work out what the operating range might be in EE TOEE.

[bartharok]

Using 10 average pots in temple when solo for boss fight makes things frustrating real fast as well

A change of tactics might be necessary.

[Wizza]

I agree on some points - like kelno being a pure mana drain. But as far as mobs saves go, I disagree - they should be high, and even still I was holding things in a mind fog without really much enchantment investment at all. The fom mobs is a good touch btw, we cast fom - some of our enemies should have it too. Forces us to use other modes of CC.

I don't want everything never saving either, then it's just too easy. I've played my caster in there quite a bit and overall I'm happy with my performance. Drank 3 pots in a full group between both quests.

As I said, this is a problem with Reflex based spells, not enchantment. In a full group you don't really tend to notice how much they save your Damage dealing spells. Go in again and pay attention when casting DBF and MS, you will change your mind. Their will saves are fine, they can be danced just fine (except for Dretches and Hezrous in the end fight, whicu had absurd high will saves on Live as well).

Fom good touch? Maybe, maybe not. But it should be visible in the buff bar. I dont want to waste two spells to find out if they have fom or no.

Besides, I dont really have a problem with SP usage, neither I have ever mentioned it. You just need to find a good route.



My DC caster typically has the highest kill count in EE ToEE, so I really don't get the complaining here. I'm Necro/Enchant spec as is typical, but I do run in DI with sense weakness twisted to do a lot more damage against groups of held mobs at the cost of a couple points of INT.

Nearly everything in ToEE dances and most can be held. CC is very effective. Most of the stuff that can't be CC'ed gets sliced through with necro spells like butter.


DC casters do particularly well in this content, not that there's anything loot-wise for them in it other than the +7 tomes.

Good. Sadly, necro and enchantment work on different kind of save than evocation, in case you didn't know. So your point is kinda moot since I mostly talked about Reflex based spells in my OP, with pictures.

[Wizza]

Portal - could you quantify your standard DC's on key spells?
Some people are saying they can't land anything, others are saying they can land everything.
Would help if we quantify and work out what the operating range might be in EE TOEE.

The OP is about Reflex saved spells. Portal is talking about Fortitude and Will spells. I have no idea how his DCs can help the conversation going on.

[Blackheartox]

A change of tactics might be necessary.

Yes, and i did exaclty that, tr to barb.
Simple, easy effective.
I mean, my build did abuse imollation and is prolly best dps oriented draconic sorc you could build.

But its not good enough, and no matter how i approach it, only way for me to use less sp pots is to group with more melles or ranged.
As sorc, you arent really having enough bursty dps for those 400 k hp mobs to sustain you sp pool.
Its kinda impossible solo, in group yea, melles do the job

[bartharok]

Yes, and i did exaclty that, tr to barb.
Simple, easy effective.
I mean, my build did abuse imollation and is prolly best dps oriented draconic sorc you could build.

But its not good enough, and no matter how i approach it, only way for me to use less sp pots is to group with more melles or ranged.
As sorc, you arent really having enough bursty dps for those 400 k hp mobs to sustain you sp pool.
Its kinda impossible solo, in group yea, melles do the job

Its not a change of tactics, its changing the entire game. I didnt mean a different build, just trying to use what you have in another way. Would probably slow you down too much for you to like it, though.

[Wizza]

Its not a change of tactics, its changing the entire game. I didnt mean a different build, just trying to use what you have in another way. Would probably slow you down too much for you to like it, though.

Tell me, mighty bartharok, how can my Sorcerer change its tactic to make me hit Evocation based spells on those mobs.

Before you suggest it, I'm not going Necromancy because that's an entirely different build and we both don't want that (as you said in this above quote). Also please avoid suggesting to avoid a Greataxe or any Melee weapon for that matter.

[Iriale]

My DC caster typically has the highest kill count in EE ToEE, so I really don't get the complaining here. I'm Necro/Enchant spec as is typical, but I do run in DI with sense weakness twisted to do a lot more damage against groups of held mobs at the cost of a couple points of INT.

Nearly everything in ToEE dances and most can be held. CC is very effective. Most of the stuff that can't be CC'ed gets sliced through with necro spells like butter.

DC casters do particularly well in this content, not that there's anything loot-wise for them in it other than the +7 tomes.
In parties, I have no problem with a DC sorcerer or a DC wizard. Melees do the most dps against bosses, of course. But when I solo... I have the same problem with a sorcerer than with a wizard. My blue bar is not enough.

If melees were too dependent on the spellcasters ... but they aren't. I can solo easy with my pallie, for example. The designers have created again an imbalance, this time in favor of melees, instead of balancing the game.

Throughout this life I have looted two mnemonic potions (seriously, have decreased the drop of sp pots, or am I very unlucky?). And if I have to use various potions for to kill a boss just in a quest… well, it's bad math.


Using 10 average pots in temple when solo for boss fight makes things frustrating real fast as well
If you have that problem with a sorcerer, imagine with a DC wizard with worse dps. Melees rule now, because dps is king now.

To the OP: yes, STs seem wrong here…

[bartharok]

Tell me, mighty bartharok, how can my Sorcerer change its tactic to make me hit Evocation based spells on those mobs.

Before you suggest it, I'm not going Necromancy because that's an entirely different build and we both don't want that (as you said in this above quote). Also please avoid suggesting to avoid a Greataxe or any Melee weapon for that matter.

If X does not work use something else. You dont necessarily need to be optimized for it, just try until you find something that DOES work.

But as i said, it might be so slow going that its not much fun for you (I enjoy beating the odds in odd ways, but know that others might not)

The mighty bartharok has spoken, go forth and conquer (or not, as things may be)

[Wizza]

To the OP: yes, STs seem wrong here…

What is ST?


If X does not work use something else. You dont necessarily need to be optimized for it, just try until you find something that DOES work.

But as i said, it might be so slow going that its not much fun for you (I enjoy beating the odds in odd ways, but know that others might not)

The mighty bartharok has spoken, go forth and conquer (or not, as things may be)

The usual generic and useless reply, as expected. This is not helping me at all. Make clear examples and reasonable suggestions, I'm open to hear anything if you have anything good to say. If not, then just avoid saying "oh you can try something else...but I won't tell you because I'm suuuper eviiiiiiiiiil and also I have no idea what I'm talking about".

[bartharok]

What is ST?



The usual generic and useless reply, as expected. This is not helping me at all. Make clear examples and reasonable suggestions, I'm open to hear anything if you have anything good to say. If not, then just avoid saying "oh you can try something else...but I won't tell you because I'm suuuper eviiiiiiiiiil and also I have no idea what I'm talking about".

I cant tell you how to play your toon. I just adviced people to try something else than whatever it was that didnt work instead of being uoset because what they tried didnt work. Use stuff that dont have saves for instance. I assume that you have some spells of that kind chosen for situations like this. The problem can of course be that the spells you have of this kind may take forever to kill your opponents, but thats what i meant by not necessarily being fun for you.

[Iriale]

What is ST?
Saving Throws, sorry.

I hope that devs listen you.

[Wizza]

Saving Throws, sorry.

I hope that devs listen you.

I see, thanks.

Seems like the problem is only their Reflex saves, as Will saves are pretty okay with the exception of a few mobs that I already mentioned (Dretches and Hezrous in endfight part 2). Fortitude saves, a couple of people claimed they can use their Necro spells just fine.


I cant tell you how to play your toon. I just adviced people to try something else than whatever it was that didnt work instead of being uoset because what they tried didnt work. Use stuff that dont have saves for instance. I assume that you have some spells of that kind chosen for situations like this. The problem can of course be that the spells you have of this kind may take forever to kill your opponents, but thats what i meant by not necessarily being fun for you.

Using non-save Spells is what I did in my run (and runs on Lamannia) but you (and Developers by putting these saves) are telling a Sorcerer (or any caster that uses Reflex-based Damage dealing spells) not to use 80% of his spells.

Your mentality is as flawed as Developers' one. Always looking for band-aids fixes. How stupid is that, when you could just, you know, fix what is broken? Because the Reflex saves are obviously broken, I have no doubts about that.


@Vargouille: I'm still waiting your reply, again, after my detailed feedback, with DCs, debuffs, specific mobs and pictures.

Just so people knows what Vargouille stated on Lamannia:


On EE, without the special anti-magic (aka -6), Dretches, Hezrou, and Goristro have at least one save type below 50 (or even below 40 for the one with only one sub-50 save, or multiple saves below 50).

Kelno has a 53, Falrinth has pretty awful saves across the board (but is a Boss). Even Zuggtmoy has a below 50 save. These are all bosses who may have some other special stuff going on (especially the two end bosses).

These aren't all the same "weak save" type for each monster, and some of these are significant bosses that that we expect to provide some trouble.

Every human monster has at least one save at 53 or lower in Temple of Elemental Evil. (This was relatively easy to check since all humans are in one place.)

(Of course, this kind of detailed information isn't something we're going to normally spend much time giving out - we do want you guys to discover some of this on your own - but under the circumstances I wanted to spend some extra time looking at these guys to check for oddities.)

I colored in Red the Kelno bit, which is especially interesting. 75 DC, against a 53 Reflex save, should hit 100% of the times. Instead, I was hitting for 0% of the times. A very huge difference in his stated Save and my in game experience.

I repeat: this seems only a problem with mobs' Reflex saves and Evocation DC based spells. Even I myself have claimed in the OP that I can Dance and Hold (when there isn't an invisible FoM :rolleyes: ) mobs just fine..

[count_spicoli]

Yes, and i did exaclty that, tr to barb.
Simple, easy effective.
I mean, my build did abuse imollation and is prolly best dps oriented draconic sorc you could build.

But its not good enough, and no matter how i approach it, only way for me to use less sp pots is to group with more melles or ranged.
As sorc, you arent really having enough bursty dps for those 400 k hp mobs to sustain you sp pool.
Its kinda impossible solo, in group yea, melles do the job

Are we whining that we cant solo ee level 28 eequests again? I bet in groups your just fine. even groups of casters no melee. I havent hit toee on my wizy yet but before this update i felt he was op. Most melee i run with in any ee quests feel very uselss. They can just come along and open chests. I would agree that fom should be in the mob description but i have no problem with them having that or deathward.

[Dorian]

Wonder how my Druid will do in here... reflex save on EQ.

[patang01]

I got only two comments, really, since I haven't got the pack yet (still about 75 TP short).

Sounds like an appropriately difficult end-game quest. I did see one forum post so far, however, characterizing ToEE as "too easy."

It doesn't seem surprising that a mob 23 levels higher than you has really good saving throws.

It's not appropriatly difficult at all. It's borked. Air and water are among the most boring encounters you can ever imagine. Fire is okay and Earth is like super easy. Earth - you charm the earth elementals (smart feature) but the cleric is very light on HP and dies quickly. Fire is good, appropriate amount of HP and the 3 fire salamanders on EH gives you grief. It's intense and not too long.

Water temple is SUPER boring. A massive cube with several hundred thousands of HP in a small confined space. You stand there for 3-4 minutes with normal classes IN THE MIDDLE of the cube hacking, shooting and spelling.

I used both my Vanguard crusader guy and my Arti Draconic guy and they're doing fairly okay DPS and it takes forever. You heal yourself through and you're in the middle of a jiggling cube. Ontop of that you then have to deal with 2 red named water ellies with TONS of HP. Same story, another 2 sacks of HP that you smack forever.

Then we have the air priest. Around 140k HP with great resistance to everything. You heal through it and smacks him forever. That unlocks the force field in the air temple. Now you deal with a Goristo - another boring sack of HP.

How come the fire temple with a few mobs of worshipers, 3 Fire Salamanders and a red named priest with less HP feels so appropriate? Because you can move around - the damage seems to be menacing enough to make you have to maneuver and use tactics and they're not boring sacks of HP where you can simply stand still, heal and deliver forever.

They could not have created more boring encounters if they tried. Earth needs to be adjusted to be a little bit more interesting. Such as beef up the HP to Fire temple cleric level. Also, since you can charm the earth elementals I suggest spawning a few waves of regular worshipers. Just to add some intensity.

Dial down the HP sackery of the water temple. Remove the barrier behind you so you can fight and move in the corridor. There's another barrier all the way down anyways. Possibly remove the other water elementals. After dealing with a sack of HP it's just boring and tedious to deal with 2 more. It servers very little purpose.

Readjust the air priest and the Goristo. Make the battles a little bit more intense and less HP sacks. The quality is not how long a fight tanks - even shorter fights but with more tactical interests are far better.

Finally add chests to ALL these encounters. Fire and earth have it - the other super dreadful and boring HP smacking ones don't. None for the Air cleric, Goristo or water temple. Despite being horrible.

[Monkey-Boy]

Its not a change of tactics, its changing the entire game. I didnt mean a different build, just trying to use what you have in another way. Would probably slow you down too much for you to like it, though.

Provide some details on how one might do this. You seem to know it all, enlighten us.

[Blackheartox]

Are we whining that we cant solo ee level 28 eequests again? I bet in groups your just fine. even groups of casters no melee. I havent hit toee on my wizy yet but before this update i felt he was op. Most melee i run with in any ee quests feel very uselss. They can just come along and open chests. I would agree that fom should be in the mob description but i have no problem with them having that or deathward.


No no, has nothing to do with whining. I can complete it np, but issue is the toll is to hard to pay to be effective, example i need to use cooies yugo pots and stat 2 store pots as sorc to land spells with efficiency that i demand to make the sp be cost effective.
As said, can complete fair and square.
But atm my main priority is to effectively farm for +7 tomes ;)
And efficiency wise that means, me 3 bots, friend to move bots, and 1 open spot for last bot, or in short i cannot afford to be in a sorc build that "can" complete but considerably slower.
To keep up as sorc, i need to use to many resources which on the long run wont make it effective.
As barb, i go in press blitz, kill loot repeat.

Its 2 entirely different playstyles i know that.
But thing is as sorc you need to be focused and keep track of what is happening around you, you can die easily at some fights /any elemental aspect tbh with simple mistakes.
As you need to be focued for longer periods, the ammount of you being able to perform good is also lower.

Now keep in mind, that i need close to no focus as barb or palie or bard.

Nothing to do with ability to solo or inability, but the resource consumption, risk and tiredness factor that come from sorc play vs melle play.
Hope you guys kinda get what i am saying, not crying sorc is weak or useless but just saying its not worth to farm temple as a sorc currently since melles dominate.

I am primarly a monk/sorc player, monk beside some tree sploiting builds really has no point to be played, while sorc is amazing compared to the sadest pms who really got a big kick in their bu... with the hps some mobs have in temple.
If i am tring to a barb after spending a +1 heart and aligment change for my final build, that should clearly show how infeffective it is to play a sorc in temple vs barb ;)

Also barth, really dunno what tactics to use to be as efficient as modern melles/some xbow builds as a sorc player.
The best tactic would be to play a hold bot for 5 melles, but honestly im so freaking greedy for those 7 tomes that i would rather make a build that can solo the whole thing with bots then rely on other players..
Greed ftw


Also wizza, i support whatever you write atm, really i got 3 sor plifes, evoc feat, maxed gear and my reflex based spells just couldnt land even on held mobs in solid foq.
(not all, but boss mobs saved more then offften so that it kinda makes you angry)

/sorry for long text. but had to write it so that people "understand" the reason why im writing barb is better, simply put casters arent really in a good spot vs 500 k hp enemies, they never were but now even worse off

[Monkey-Boy]

Are we whining that we cant solo ee level 28 eequests again? I bet in groups your just fine. even groups of casters no melee. I havent hit toee on my wizy yet but before this update i felt he was op. Most melee i run with in any ee quests feel very uselss. They can just come along and open chests. I would agree that fom should be in the mob description but i have no problem with them having that or deathward.

The point is casters add no value to the group, you're better off with another melee taking their spot.

[BigErkyKid]

The point is casters add no value to the group, you're better off with another melee taking their spot.

Giving how wildly the balance goes from ranged - casting to melee over time I am starting to think it is on purpose.

The only other explanation is that the devs are bad at their job and don't know how to balance.

[MrWindupBird]

As I said, this is a problem with Reflex based spells, not enchantment. In a full group you don't really tend to notice how much they save your Damage dealing spells. Go in again and pay attention when casting DBF and MS, you will change your mind. Their will saves are fine, they can be danced just fine (except for Dretches and Hezrous in the end fight, whicu had absurd high will saves on Live as well).

Fom good touch? Maybe, maybe not. But it should be visible in the buff bar. I dont want to waste two spells to find out if they have fom or no.


I havent taken my caster into EE yet, but I did notice that Keino's reflex saves were unseemly high when I was doing it on my monk: unbalancing strike was not landing at all with a 72ish DC. I don't really get the point of having mobs with really high reflex: it really just punishes sorcs, who really don't need the handicap.

As far as the FOM buff goes, it is visible in the buff bar. They aren't actually FOM'ed, so that icon isn't present: the buff seems to be a mass Song of Freedom (bard thing). Look for a Deathward-ish icon, with about a 3min duration. I haven't investigated it much, but I think that the clerics may proc it on the whole group, but it's very fast-cast and mass.

On a semi-related note, the ubiquity of see-invisibility on random trash mobs is irritating. Invising is a perfectly valid strategy, and if you don't want us doing that, create reasons to proceed through the quest more thoroughly. This means that quest design should be more than just stuffing meatbag obstacles in the way: that's precisely the sort of design that incentivizes using invis to skip the tedium.

[bartharok]

Provide some details on how one might do this. You seem to know it all, enlighten us.

Im very sorry for not doing the cool thing and start complaining because the world isnt perfect.

[Erdrique]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread but it definitely looks like some screwy things were going on. I imagine we will see plenty of tweeks to the mobs and the quest over the next few months.

[Cetus]

As I said, this is a problem with Reflex based spells, not enchantment. In a full group you don't really tend to notice how much they save your Damage dealing spells. Go in again and pay attention when casting DBF and MS, you will change your mind. Their will saves are fine, they can be danced just fine (except for Dretches and Hezrous in the end fight, whicu had absurd high will saves on Live as well).

You think I didn't pay attention? Sure, some saved - but in a solid fog, with exhaustion, and crushing despair - my nukes landed just fine.


Fom good touch? Maybe, maybe not. But it should be visible in the buff bar. I dont want to waste two spells to find out if they have fom or no.

Well, now you know.


Besides, I dont really have a problem with SP usage, neither I have ever mentioned it. You just need to find a good route.
So what if you didn't mention? *I* mentioned it in order to convey my position that overall, I was happy with my sorc in there with zero adjustments. I can easily improve my DC's and drop a bit on full ****** DPS and do better.

I just think your screenshots of "save save save" are a bit misleading, I can post you some screenshots with full damage procs too. These guys SHOULD be difficult to wipe out, so yea - I do get saves some times, just not ALL the time.

[Wizza]

Well, now you know.

I still don't actually. I still can't see the FoM buff. And it's random.

As someone said earlier, they have a Deathward (?) icon that shows they have FoM? I'd be glad if they had a FoM icon that showed they have FoM.



I just think your screenshots of "save save save" are a bit misleading, I can post you some screenshots with full damage procs too. These guys SHOULD be difficult to wipe out, so yea - I do get saves some times, just not ALL the time.

I have deleted about 60+ screenshots of every single spell saving between Lamannia testing and Live. Every of them was Lightning bolt, with rebounds. No other spells was casted in between. Not sure what is misleading about my Screenshots, those are literally consecutive spells for about 3 to 5 minutes, the whole fight duration, excluding my Fire dot.

[Raithe]

Water temple is SUPER boring. A massive cube with several hundred thousands of HP in a small confined space. You stand there for 3-4 minutes with normal classes IN THE MIDDLE of the cube hacking, shooting and spelling.


I've completed the first part of ToEE about 6 times now. I have yet to fight the water temple cube. I have fought Wadsworth in the feast hall and I'm fairly sure he has an equivalent amount of hp, but that was because I wanted to see what was in his chest (both the one that was full of loot and the one that seemed to have a skeleton holding out a top hat). It pains me to take any side that might remotely be considered the side of Turbine or of inflated hit points, but the arrogance involved with everyone assuming that this game is ONLY about taking large sacks of hit points to the ground and the kill count that goes along with it... boggles my mind. Once you have the key... what's keeping you there?



The OP is about Reflex saved spells.

I don't really buy this, and quite frankly reflex saves are a moot point when you do at least half-damage to a very large number of mobs with AoE spells - as long as you hold them first. The mobs may have been given some sort of buff against evocation spells, precisely so people don't lam-o the whole quest scooting down the corridor casting DBF after DBF (devs may have watched what happened in Thunderholme). But assuming that the thread really is only about reflex saves and the spells that use them, lets compare efficiencies against a boss like Kelno:

1) Niac's: 5d5+25 / 4sp = 10 hp/sp
2) Acid Spray: 5d2+10 / 4sp = 4.38 hp/sp
3) Burning Hands: 5d2+10 / 4sp = 4.38 hp/sp
4) Magic Missile: 5d2+15 / 4sp = 5.63 hp/sp
5) Shocking Grasp: 5d3+15 / 4sp = 6.88 hp/sp
6) Sonic Blast: 5d2+10 / 4sp = 4.38 hp/sp
7) Melf's Acid Arrow: (5 x 25/2 x 2d4+1) / 6sp = 60 hp/sp
8) Electric Loop: 5d3+15 / 10sp = 2.5 hp/sp
9) Scorch: 5d4+20 / 6sp = 5.42 hp/sp
10) Scorching Ray: (3 x 4d3+12) / 8sp = 7.5 hp/sp
11) Acid Blast: 10d3+ 30 / 15sp = 3.33 hp/sp
12) Fireball: 10d3+30 / 15sp = 3.33 hp/sp
13) Frost Lance: (3 x 4d5+20) / 10sp = 9.6 hp/sp
14) Lightning Bolt: 10d3+30 / 12sp = 4.17 hp/sp
15) Acid Rain: (3 x 15d4) / 10sp = 11.25 hp/sp
16) Force Missiles: (4 x 2d3+8) / 8sp = 6 hp/sp
17) Wall of Fire: (15 x 2d6+15) / 25sp = 13.2 hp/sp
18) Cloudkill: (45 x 2d6+20) / 30sp = 40.5 hp/sp
19) Ball Lightning: 15d3+45 / 20sp = 3.75 hp/sp
20) Cone of Cold: 15d3+45 / 20sp = 3.75 hp/sp
21) Cyclonic Blast: 20d3+60 / 15sp = 6.67 hp/sp
22) Eladar's Electric Surge: (3 stacks x 7 ticks x 1d6+20) / 20sp = 24.68 hp/sp
23) Niac's Biting Cold: (3 stacks x 7 ticks x 1d6+20) / 20sp = 24.68 hp/sp
24) Acid Fog: (45 x 2d6) / 35sp = 9 hp/sp
25) Chain Lightning: 20d3+60 / 25sp = 4 hp/sp
26) Necrotic Ray: 25d4+100 / 10sp = 16.25 hp/sp
27) Delayed Blast Fireball: 20d3+60 / 25sp = 4 hp/sp
28) Black Dragon Bolt: (3 x 25d3) / 15sp = 10 hp/sp
29) Incendiary Cloud: (15 x 2d4+25) / 45sp = 10 hp/sp
30) Polar Ray: 25d3+75 / 20sp = 6.25 hp/sp

All the spells with good efficiency against a single target have no reflex save, and this is assuming the spells with a reflex save always work without the 50% reduction because the target saved. These spells are meant to be cast on large groups of mobs to make their efficiency viable. In the past, it has been ultra-viable in that the reflex-save spells have given better-than-decent efficiency against 8-10 mobs while doing extremely high DPS (the name of the game as far as D&D goes is the faster you want the mob to die, the more resources you'll need to use).

So claiming that evocation spells with a reflex save don't work against Kelno is tantamount to claiming that Turbine is saving you from your own bad gameplay. I guess you can complain, but I wouldn't hold your breath for a "fix." Even if they correct Kelno's saves, you'll still be running out of spell points and the barbarian will still be doing double to triple your DPS.

[Wizza]

I don't really buy this, and quite frankly reflex saves are a moot point when you do at least half-damage to a very large number of mobs with AoE spells - as long as you hold them first. The mobs may have been given some sort of buff against evocation spells, precisely so people don't lam-o the whole quest scooting down the corridor casting DBF after DBF (devs may have watched what happened in Thunderholme). But assuming that the thread really is only about reflex saves and the spells that use them, lets compare efficiencies against a boss like Kelno:


All the spells with good efficiency against a single target have no reflex save, and this is assuming the spells with a reflex save always work without the 50% reduction because the target saved. These spells are meant to be cast on large groups of mobs to make their efficiency viable. In the past, it has been ultra-viable in that the reflex-save spells have given better-than-decent efficiency against 8-10 mobs while doing extremely high DPS (the name of the game as far as D&D goes is the faster you want the mob to die, the more resources you'll need to use).


There is so much arrogance in your post that I almost don't want to reply but will barely do so for the sake of my thread and not because you are bringing some good point to the discussion.

First of all: you can or you cannot buy it but that is what it is about. You see Necromancy spells mentioned in my OP? Did you read that I can hold and mobs just fine (barring Dretches and Hezrous)? You see screenshot of what spells I'm using? Yeah, point 1. I can tell you that the color Red is in fact Red. If you think the Color Red is Blue, then don't blame it on the others.

Second of all: your spell damage calculation is flawed. See: not counting Lightning bolt rebounds, not counting the first tick of save on Acid rain. Also not counting all the other playstyles that come into play, like overall Savant performance, MCL/CL on opposite Savant spells etc etc. Unless you are telling me to load every single of those spells on my Sorcerer.

Third of all: why are you talking about Single damage target only? :rolleyes: Did you read the OP carefully? Hint: I also complained about CR 51 cultists, Dretches, Hezrous, Gargoyles. Those don't come alone, do they now? But hey, Red is Blue!


So claiming that evocation spells with a reflex save don't work against Kelno is tantamount to claiming that Turbine is saving you from your own bad gameplay. I guess you can complain, but I wouldn't hold your breath for a "fix." Even if they correct Kelno's saves, you'll still be running out of spell points and the barbarian will still be doing double to triple your DPS.

Pls, quote me where I said I'm running out of SP and this is what this is all about :rolleyes: Another hint: I can complete both quests with no SP pots in a full group, probably in a duo as well (might have to chug some in part 2 endfight thou, since with their saves I can't nuke down Hezrous and Dretches).

Go back to have fun with your Barbarian then, because I don't really care if they are doing the triple of my DPS ;)

[Cetus]

I still don't actually. I still can't see the FoM buff. And it's random.

As someone said earlier, they have a Deathward (?) icon that shows they have FoM? I'd be glad if they had a FoM icon that showed they have FoM.



I have deleted about 60+ screenshots of every single spell saving between Lamannia testing and Live. Every of them was Lightning bolt, with rebounds. No other spells was casted in between. Not sure what is misleading about my Screenshots, those are literally consecutive spells for about 3 to 5 minutes, the whole fight duration, excluding my Fire dot.

I'll make a video at some point and just show you a sample of my spells vs. their saves. It'll be some good comparison footage, maybe you're missing a few DC points somewhere?

[RoberttheBard]

I'm noticing a pattern as I read through the thread:

"When I'm in a group, I don't have a problem, but when I'm solo..."

Maybe, just maybe, they built this content with grouping in mind. Isn't that one of the biggest complaints, I guess behind "I struggle soloing ToEE" is that people can solo too much stuff? I mean, the "dirty fix" thread was full of "Everyone can solo everything, this game's too easy and people need to be nerfed". So they introduce content that encourages grouping, and all of a sudden it's a bad thing, or melee are overpowered? What a switch that is from the days of a PM soloing raids while everyone else watched, eh?

[BigErkyKid]

I'm noticing a pattern as I read through the thread:

"When I'm in a group, I don't have a problem, but when I'm solo..."

Maybe, just maybe, they built this content with grouping in mind. Isn't that one of the biggest complaints, I guess behind "I struggle soloing ToEE" is that people can solo too much stuff? I mean, the "dirty fix" thread was full of "Everyone can solo everything, this game's too easy and people need to be nerfed". So they introduce content that encourages grouping, and all of a sudden it's a bad thing, or melee are overpowered? What a switch that is from the days of a PM soloing raids while everyone else watched, eh?

Nah, it's not that.

The quest overly punishes some styles (DC casting) in comparison with groups of barbs that are farming the hell out of it.

Several people are already finishing this in EE in reasonable times and have proceeded to "farm".

Is this the so called end game?

[RoberttheBard]

Nah, it's not that.

The quest overly punishes some styles (DC casting) in comparison with groups of barbs that are farming the hell out of it.

Several people are already finishing this in EE in reasonable times and have proceeded to "farm".

Is this the so called end game?

Isn't that the "end game" in any MMO? If you're waiting for the devs to constantly churn out more and more content, you're out of luck, and I don't care what MMO you play, you're out of luck. Over the course of the last two decades, give or take, this has always been the "end game" in MMOs, and has very little to do with group or solo play.

[Monkey-Boy]

The only other explanation is that the devs are bad at their job and don't know how to balance.

I see what you did there . . .

[Chai]

I'm noticing a pattern as I read through the thread:

"When I'm in a group, I don't have a problem, but when I'm solo..."

Maybe, just maybe, they built this content with grouping in mind. Isn't that one of the biggest complaints, I guess behind "I struggle soloing ToEE" is that people can solo too much stuff? I mean, the "dirty fix" thread was full of "Everyone can solo everything, this game's too easy and people need to be nerfed". So they introduce content that encourages grouping, and all of a sudden it's a bad thing, or melee are overpowered? What a switch that is from the days of a PM soloing raids while everyone else watched, eh?

This.

One quest now makes people more comfortable when grouped, and the pattern based feedback loop does a complete 180.

[Svartelric]

God, the boards have become a spam-fest for one single user complaining about mob saves and 5-6 other users with sticky figures in the sig that agree with him... This is obnoxious.

[Ellihor]

I'm noticing a pattern as I read through the thread:

"When I'm in a group, I don't have a problem, but when I'm solo..."

I really fail to see that pattern. The saves of the mobs don't go down when you are in a party at least in my experience, I must be doing something wrong I guess...

[Chai]

I really fail to see that pattern. The saves of the mobs don't go down when you are in a party at least in my experience, I must be doing something wrong I guess...

The number of differing resources certainly goes up, making efficiency go up as well.

[moo_cow]

I'll make a video at some point and just show you a sample of my spells vs. their saves. It'll be some good comparison footage, maybe you're missing a few DC points somewhere?

When I last tested saves on lammania I was running a 69 evocation and 69 enchant. With debuffs that I used I was running a 73 enchant and 74 evocation. Some mobs for some reason I can't touch no matter what. Hell .... my monk with a 78 stunning fist dc can't even stun some of the mobs in toee. Other mobs I can insta kill, hold, nuke without a problem.

I did a few tests on the mobs with the lowest saves in that quest, the cultists. I will throw a hold and get all of them for a minute. Others for some reason (yes still cultists) will save 95% of the time for no reason. I think we might have one of the old bezekira bugs functioning on some of these mobs. And these mobs can't get fom or anything like that so I no it is no a matter of being immune.

I haven't tested mobs saves since this went on live however, just throwing in my 2 cents from when I tested on 2nd round of lammania.

Edit: Not saying that saves are a major problem in here because it seems since lammania people are holding mobs and doing better since the patch. My biggest issue is in a group of 20 mobs there is sometimes a mob with incredibly high saves (not a champion). I did a few tests where I was hitting mobs with a 78 fortitude dc and they just sat there and took the negative energy until they died. Cultists do not have over 90's for fort saves, but occasionally one does for some reason. There were also some of these cultists that I was hitting with that 74 evocation and it was just evade, evade, evade. I only encounter these mobs every 30 dead monsters, but still what the F.

[BigErkyKid]

Isn't that the "end game" in any MMO? If you're waiting for the devs to constantly churn out more and more content, you're out of luck, and I don't care what MMO you play, you're out of luck. Over the course of the last two decades, give or take, this has always been the "end game" in MMOs, and has very little to do with group or solo play.

How does this answer to what I said?

There are a few things with ToEE not working well:

- It favors melee DPS over DC abilities: a barb chews through mobs, a sorc struggles because of random saves being super high and some ad hoc immunities. (the topic of this thread)

- Some loot is really bad, some is very grindy (can discuss that) and some is really good. Wildly good, I would say, because increasing DPS by 20% (MP20 from set bonus) is huge. Of course it makes the loot good, but instead of making it situationally good like we asked, it is just huge power creep. Yay for lazy solutions.

- The hardest content of the game has already been beaten to dust. Yes it is unforgiving for some archetypes and it took some time to understand the end fight, but now a good chunk of players have finished on EE and are proceeding to farm mushrooms. How long after the update? Right.

[Wizza]

I'll make a video at some point and just show you a sample of my spells vs. their saves. It'll be some good comparison footage, maybe you're missing a few DC points somewhere?

Well there is my DC with buffs and debuffs in the OP. What is yours? I find what happens is exactly described by moo_cow some replies below yours, with a few exception with mobs always saving like Zuggy and her trash, Kelno etc etc.


How does this answer to what I said?

There are a few things with ToEE not working well:

- It favors melee DPS over DC abilities: a barb chews through mobs, a sorc struggles because of random saves being super high and some ad hoc immunities. (the topic of this thread)

Honestly, it doesn't really bother me that a barbarian does what he does 5x faster than my Sorcerer, like people said. What bothers me is that, as you said, I can't even do what I'm supposed to do because Devs decided suddenly that mobs need some random FoM and some super high saves, whereas BBP don't suffer AT ALL from these things.

You wanna talk about the new Brittleskin mechanic? Which, by the way, is another band-aid fix to their mess up with PRR, just like Champions. Let's talk about it:

It can up to 10.000 but it fades TEN STACKS at the time. Now, when you count Displacement, dodge, concealement and everything else, I can't even get to stack up more than 5 on my Sorcerer. And it lasts THREE seconds. I could see it if it lasted for 20 seconds and refreshing the stacks every time you got hit by that but 3 seconds is absolutely meaningless. Now, as a Barbarian with 150 PRR you don't really care about 5 stacks anyway. As a Sorcerer, I lose 1/7 of my PRR (which is 69 with 9 Divine Past life). Pls.

As I said, this is the Barbarian Update and I stand by my words.

[Singular]

How does this answer to what I said?

There are a few things with ToEE not working well:

- It favors melee DPS over DC abilities: a barb chews through mobs, a sorc struggles because of random saves being super high and some ad hoc immunities. (the topic of this thread)

- Some loot is really bad, some is very grindy (can discuss that) and some is really good. Wildly good, I would say, because increasing DPS by 20% (MP20 from set bonus) is huge. Of course it makes the loot good, but instead of making it situationally good like we asked, it is just huge power creep. Yay for lazy solutions.

- The hardest content of the game has already been beaten to dust. Yes it is unforgiving for some archetypes and it took some time to understand the end fight, but now a good chunk of players have finished on EE and are proceeding to farm mushrooms. How long after the update? Right.

Just to speak to your loot comment.

The weapons themselves still mostly suck, except in specific situations. So adding that 20% is good - it kind of puts them on par with TH weapons. Now you can think "ok, I can use mortal fear or X TH weapon, which helps with armor piercing, or I can increase my base DPS." Overall, they're going to be a boost mainly for twf. One weapon users will still be using TH weapons almost all of the time.

[BigErkyKid]

Just to speak to your loot comment.

The weapons themselves still mostly suck, except in specific situations. So adding that 20% is good - it kind of puts them on par with TH weapons. Now you can think "ok, I can use mortal fear or X TH weapon, which helps with armor piercing, or I can increase my base DPS." Overall, they're going to be a boost mainly for twf. One weapon users will still be using TH weapons almost all of the time.

Do barbarians with 2 war hammers need 20% more DPS?

This is not situational, this is huge for TWFers.

PS - BTW, you can have dragon's edge, mortal fear AND this set bonus for TWF.

[Singular]

Do barbarians with 2 war hammers need 20% more DPS?

This is not situational, this is huge for TWFers.

No, but fighters do!

Do they stack? If you have two, is that 40% extra? :)

It's not 20% overall dps, it's 20 melee power points, so it adds the entire % boost. Someone who currently has a melee power of 100 is going to see 10% more damage. Someone with absolutely no melee power will see a 20% boost (that's not possible though). While it is correct to say it's a 20% increase over dps before melee power calculations, it's incorrect to call it a 20% overall boost.

[lyrecono]

Absolutely, disgusting, ridicolous changes. The run was on Epic Elite. Let me go on them one by one:

You REALLY REALLY borked the ranged damage of this quest.

1) Wait until the melee has the attention?

2) Wait until the melee has the attention.

3) Try going toe to toe with them whille having to move to avoid earthquackes

4) see invis on random mobs sounds stupid but otherwise you would simply zerg past all of them. Are you sure you didn't get noticed by the sounds you made?

5) idk, idc

6) Earth temple:they are all gimick fights, you're supposed to get the club to charm them

7) Fire temple:
See the earth temple anwser.


8) Water temple:

either don't kill the cultists or use ddoor

9) Air Temple:

Take some melee's worth their weight.....

10) Something is screwy about mobs' aggro. They aggro even when they are FAR away and we are in a different room.
i got nothing, i haven't noticed this.

11) Insta red alert on the beginning of part 2 as well.
i had similar problems, too much trash spawns, creating DA




All in all, pretty stretched gimmicky, boring same old same old.

as for the dc's, some guildies managed without problems, some of them only got their dancing balls to work????

So now that everybody is whining about barbs being too strong:
As someone that has been a barb since day one i found the first(general) enh pass pathetic, the second too weak and the 2hf feat nerfs childish
especially for a class that is supposed to be the high hp and dps output character

At least now the casters get a tiny idea of what we melee's had for 5!!!! years.
as for that amazing time: thanks turbine and thanks people on the forum for pitching in

I will give you the same response we were given all those years:

i'm sorry but i rather fill the spots with people who can contribute something to the party.


Now i got that out of my system:
How can we work together to make this work?
Damaging them seems to lower their saves, so dancing balls until the melee's got them down a bit and then energy burst them?

[BigErkyKid]

No, but fighters do!

Do they stack? If you have two, is that 40% extra? :)

It's not 20% overall dps, it's 20 melee power points, so it adds the entire % boost. Someone who currently has a melee power of 100 is going to see 10% more damage. Someone with absolutely no melee power will see a 20% boost (that's not possible though). While it is correct to say it's a 20% increase over dps before melee power calculations, it's incorrect to call it a 20% overall boost.

I don't think it stacks.

In any case, this is what it means:

Suppose someone hits for 100 before melee power. This person had MP=100 before the boost, so it means that final damage is:

100*((100+100)/100))= 100*2=200.

Now this person will be hitting for an additional 20 MP, that is:

100*((100+120)/100))=100*2.2=220

It is quite big. It is so big that it is the best possible combination for TWF. It is so big that it might make TWF the best style.

Yes, it isn't a flat 20% DPS. It is a (wrong) oversimplification on my behalf. It would be a 20% increase in DPS for someone without MP.

In any case, this is NOT situationally good as we asked. It has NOTHING to do with elemental power flavor. It is just raw power creep.

[Eth]

Do barbarians with 2 war hammers need 20% more DPS?

This is not situational, this is huge for TWFers.

It's actually 24 or 28 MP/RP/SPP (depending on the 4+4 from armor and weapon stacking or not).
20 set bonus and 4 extra for weapon and armor via upgrade.
20 extra MP is not a 20% DPS increase. Not all your damage comes from base damage. Edit: I see you answered that already, nvm.



PS - BTW, you can have dragon's edge, mortal fear AND this set bonus for TWF.
This is only partly correct.
Dragon's edge applies to both weapons no matter on which weapon it actually is.
Mortal fear however only applies to the weapon it is actually on.

[BigErkyKid]

It's actually 24 or 28 MP/RP/SPP (depending on the 4+4 from armor and weapon stacking or not).
20 set bonus and 4 extra for weapon and armor via upgrade.
20 extra MP is not a 20% DPS increase. Not all your damage comes from base damage. Edit: I see you answered that already, nvm.


This is only partly correct.
Dragon's edge applies to both weapons no matter on which weapon it actually is.
Mortal fear however only applies to the weapon it is actually on.

I am aware, just saying that you could have all the effects. Of course MF will proc more if both are MF.

You don't think it is an OP effect, Eth?

[patang01]

I'm not having any trouble at all holding selective mobs in ToEE on EE:

http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums/q509/raithe-nor/DDO-Arcanes_zpsinwvrvot.jpg (http://s1161.photobucket.com/user/raithe-nor/media/DDO-Arcanes_zpsinwvrvot.jpg.html)

As for running out of spell points, Turbine installed a bunch of ridiculous mechanics:

1) Abilities like Immolation and Conduction: I take my metamagics off and just pound the 300k hp bosses with scorching ray (8 sp per cast). Immolation winds up doing 1k damage per tick, while the scorching rays are doing about 500. At 4100 spell points (roughly - it varies a lot depending on the outfit I'm wearing) that would be (4100 / 8) = 512 * 500 (+ 1000 / 2) = 512,000 hit points of damage. And I didn't even have to use a mana pot.

2) Fey tap: 5 x 200 spell points per shrine, Spellsong vigor

3) Mana pots by the hundreds

4) 10% spell efficiency or better

Casters are still ridiculously overpowered. The fact that they made melee equally ridiculous just shows how harmful and damaging posts like these are to the health of the game - and the playerbase.

I use hold as well on some mobs, but now and then you get the FOM symbol on some (entire spawned mobs) that makes it impossible to hold.

Dancing ball works nicely tho.

[Wizza]

All in all, pretty stretched gimmicky, boring same old same old.


You replied to the wrong feedback.

And your reply adds nothing to the thread. Saying "this is what melees had for five years" is not helping anyone.

[Eth]

I am aware, just saying that you could have all the effects. Of course MF will proc more if both are MF.

You don't think it is an OP effect, Eth?

I think the set bonus was a great way to make the ToEE loot attractive instead of the huge failure it was before it.
The decision to add those 20 MP/RP/SPP set boni was also pretty rushed out and I do think the 20 may have been to much considering you can also upgrade the weapon and armor with MP/RP/SPP individually.

On the other hand the set bonus is only a no brainer for dual wielders. On a THF/Bowuser/Crossbow you have to decide between TF and ToEE. Especially losing dragon's edge is situationally a really bad trade-off.

I think we will see a lot more TWFers now.

[Singular]

I don't think it stacks.

In any case, this is what it means:

Suppose someone hits for 100 before melee power. This person had MP=100 before the boost, so it means that final damage is:

100*((100+100)/100))= 100*2=200.

Now this person will be hitting for an additional 20 MP, that is:

100*((100+120)/100))=100*2.2=220

It is quite big. It is so big that it is the best possible combination for TWF. It is so big that it might make TWF the best style.

Yes, it isn't a flat 20% DPS. It is a (wrong) oversimplification on my behalf. It would be a 20% increase in DPS for someone without MP.

In any case, this is NOT situationally good as we asked. It has NOTHING to do with elemental power flavor. It is just raw power creep.

Yeah, those numbers are what I wrote above. :p

Yes, it's power creep. Yes, it's not what you guys asked for (I didn't contribute to that conversation). Yes, it is now the must have combination for twf of any class. I have to admit, I'm kind of happy for my twf fighter, who is next to useless. But it's going to make twf barbs and palis more OP than ever.

I'd like to see greater diversification of weapons and weapon abilities. I hope they address that with epic greensteel.

[patang01]

I've completed the first part of ToEE about 6 times now. I have yet to fight the water temple cube. I have fought Wadsworth in the feast hall and I'm fairly sure he has an equivalent amount of hp, but that was because I wanted to see what was in his chest (both the one that was full of loot and the one that seemed to have a skeleton holding out a top hat). It pains me to take any side that might remotely be considered the side of Turbine or of inflated hit points, but the arrogance involved with everyone assuming that this game is ONLY about taking large sacks of hit points to the ground and the kill count that goes along with it... boggles my mind. Once you have the key... what's keeping you there?

Maybe I'm not arrogant enough to assume everyone use a class with ddoor. Just a thought. In fact why create a boring unrewarding encounter when the easiest thing in the world is to assume the right way is to ddoor out? Silly me. I assume by 'keeping you there' you ddoored out. Otherwise I'm all ear as how to get away from the cube without first destroying it.

To me the issue are borked encounters if you have no other choice than to fight them. No?

[BigErkyKid]

I think the set bonus was a great way to make the ToEE loot attractive instead of the huge failure it was before it.
The decision to add those 20 MP/RP/SPP set boni was also pretty rushed out and I do think the 20 may have been to much considering you can also upgrade the weapon and armor with MP/RP/SPP individually.

On the other hand the set bonus is only a no brainer for dual wielders. On a THF/Bowuser/Crossbow you have to decide between TF and ToEE. Especially losing dragon's edge is situationally a really bad trade-off.

I think we will see a lot more TWFers now.

Alright, I agree with what you said.

But to be honest, it is incredibly easy to make loot attractive by giving it +DAMAGE. This is what the set bonus is, a quick fix. Why 20 MP? Does this have any ToEE flavor at all? Anything elemental about it? No.

I agree that THF fighters and in general single weapon fighters will have to make tough choices, but the obvious solution is to go TWF which is what I expect a lot will do.


Yeah, those numbers are what I wrote above. :p

Yes, it's power creep. Yes, it's not what you guys asked for (I didn't contribute to that conversation). Yes, it is now the must have combination for twf of any class. I have to admit, I'm kind of happy for my twf fighter, who is next to useless. But it's going to make twf barbs and palis more OP than ever.

I'd like to see greater diversification of weapons and weapon abilities. I hope they address that with epic greensteel.

Right. I think the secret of the previous era (pre destinies) of DDO was that, with a few notable exceptions, there was a lot of loot that was situationally relevant. There were MANY pieces you could like for different builds. Some of it from raids that might not have been cap, others from quests that felt harder, etc.

Right now, between TF, necro 4 and now this you are set. It is a no brainer and it has invalidated a lot of the previous loot. With that, a loot of the incentives to run previous content.

Sorry Wizza that I derailed it!

I will say it until my tongue falls off: ToEE punishes excessively one style, DC casting.

[Blackheartox]

I did some tests on lama where i held a particular mob and debuffed it til i managed to hold reliably, i needed a total of 103 enchant dc to land a hold on him, he broke free after couple seconds, i posted the screenies n such in lama subsection.
Can add link if you guys want.

I trd main to barb, after i tested saves on live, i managed to hold n such and after a run i noticed that my dps as sorc solo just doesnt cut it compared to my alt that is also a barb.
I even abused double debuffs with maxed dcs as bf 18 build constantly on steroids /yugos cookies n such / and it was just sadly low dps.
Hitting 15-17 k bursts when they dont save and 2-3 k imollations is very good /even more on crits and vulner stacked, like really good.
But a simple autotatack from a barb does more dps, and then.. there is 2 weapon fight barbs, new sets, really no point to play a sorc.
Simple solution was just to disregard sorc til a burts option is added to the class.

Again, its managable, complet-able, but the efficiency is to big when you compare melle vs caster, even ranged got a huge buff this update with ranged power.
I dont mind it at all, but for efficiency sake its just simpler to tr to barb and farm temple like mad.

People who say casters are fine, do not solo as caster in high end content or as melle in high end content.
The difference is huge

[Vanhooger]

I did some tests on lama where i held a particular mob and debuffed it til i managed to hold reliably, i needed a total of 103 enchant dc to land a hold on him, he broke free after couple seconds, i posted the screenies n such in lama subsection.
Can add link if you guys want.

I trd main to barb, after i tested saves on live, i managed to hold n such and after a run i noticed that my dps as sorc solo just doesnt cut it compared to my alt that is also a barb.
I even abused double debuffs with maxed dcs as bf 18 build constantly on steroids /yugos cookies n such / and it was just sadly low dps.
Hitting 15-17 k bursts when they dont save and 2-3 k imollations is very good /even more on crits and vulner stacked, like really good.
But a simple autotatack from a barb does more dps, and then.. there is 2 weapon fight barbs, new sets, really no point to play a sorc.
Simple solution was just to disregard sorc til a burts option is added to the class.

Again, its managable, complet-able, but the efficiency is to big when you compare melle vs caster, even ranged got a huge buff this update with ranged power.
I dont mind it at all, but for efficiency sake its just simpler to tr to barb and farm temple like mad.

People who say casters are fine, do not solo as caster in high end content or as melle in high end content.
The difference is huge

This is especially true on EE raid with no shrine or max 1.

After all this years spent in DDO, I'm almost sick of it because of Barbarian.

I don't know why people enjoy so much running quest in god mode, and I don't understand why DEV still do nothing to nerf em(actually they make them stronger in U25 lol), they take the fun out of this game.

Paladin are too powerful, but a bit behind barb as it is now.

I had to tr my main...now mechanic, far away from best build but at least fun.

[lyrecono]

You replied to the wrong feedback.

And your reply adds nothing to the thread. Saying "this is what melees had for five years" is not helping anyone.

next time read the entire post
To help you out, i asked what we melee's can do to help you out, since a dev mentioned the mobs hp go down once you hurt him enough.

I'm for once happy with all this, assuming it works as intended, melee's damage them, bring their saves down, then you guys come in and kill hem.

it almost requires that one dirty word in DDO, what was it again? oh yeah, teamwork.

at least it will cut down in caster solo completion video's
a guy can only hope XD.........

[Eth]

I'm for once happy with all this, assuming it works as intended, melee's damage them, bring their saves down, then you guys come in and kill hem.


When I ran this on my sorc with a couple of barbs from my guild my experience was usually that 50% of an encounter was dead before my sorc even got a dancing ball up (yes, that was quickened).

[lyrecono]

they sure run fast XD
well by then instead of dancing then, try nuking them?

[RoberttheBard]

How does this answer to what I said?

There are a few things with ToEE not working well:

- It favors melee DPS over DC abilities: a barb chews through mobs, a sorc struggles because of random saves being super high and some ad hoc immunities. (the topic of this thread)

- Some loot is really bad, some is very grindy (can discuss that) and some is really good. Wildly good, I would say, because increasing DPS by 20% (MP20 from set bonus) is huge. Of course it makes the loot good, but instead of making it situationally good like we asked, it is just huge power creep. Yay for lazy solutions.

- The hardest content of the game has already been beaten to dust. Yes it is unforgiving for some archetypes and it took some time to understand the end fight, but now a good chunk of players have finished on EE and are proceeding to farm mushrooms. How long after the update? Right.

I guess the same way what I quoted answered what I said? This content favors grouping over soloing. Yet, here we have mages saying their spells aren't landing consistently, and yet, they're still able to solo. No matter what the devs do, people are going to find ways to steamroll the content. Nature of the beast, and if you think the situation is unique to DDO, you really need to get out more. No matter what MMO it is, the "top tier" will always be done with new content within the first week. The only issue I see here is that now, it seems, melee are doing what casters used to do, and the casters are the most vocal about how "unfair" it is. Brings me back to my lurking days, where everyone was going on and on about how casters were ruling the roost.


Do barbarians with 2 war hammers need 20% more DPS?

This is not situational, this is huge for TWFers.

PS - BTW, you can have dragon's edge, mortal fear AND this set bonus for TWF.

That's what the poster you quoted said. So, you agree with them, right? However, I'd point out that it is, indeed situational. That's why my AAs don't have just one bow, my assassins don't have just one dagger set, and my melee FvSs don't have just one weapon set. My one single weapon set will not be effective against everything I might come up against. Can I get by on fewer different sets now? Yes, I can. I can even if I don't use named loot, and just use lootgen stuff, I can get by with fewer sets. Otherwise, everyone would stay using Envenomed Blades, and not the epic version, all the way through the game. So most of this is more along the lines of "my epeen is smaller than their epeen, now, because they got updated".

It's likely that some of this content does need to be tweaked, we've already seen tweaks to ToEE, also in the first week. However, I'd say that threads like this aren't the norm for people running the content. After all, we have people posting in here that they're not having the problem, universally, that the OP is having, and then we have you, pointing out that people have already finished the content and are now farming 'shrooms. Where I'd see a problem is that nobody could finish the content at all, instead of "I can finish it, but I have to work for it". Isn't that what the OP amounts to? After all, he didn't say he couldn't finish it, just that it was harder. It's amusing, to me, that you were all about trying to make the game harder, but when someone posts a thread that claims that it's harder, you're all about how it should be made easier, since they're not using a build that you find what, offensive?

[Eth]

they sure run fast XD
well by then instead of dancing then, try nuking them?

Nuke the barbs, gotcha.

No seriously, that's what I did. Felt a bit pointless even trying to CC.

[Rys]

Nuke the barbs, gotcha.
Dance them....that's the only solution :p

[BigErkyKid]

This content favors grouping over soloing. Yet, here we have mages saying their spells aren't landing consistently, and yet, they're still able to solo. No matter what the devs do, people are going to find ways to steamroll the content.
Really? I think they could have done a better job at that. It is not very hard, it is just very hard on blue bars.



Nature of the beast, and if you think the situation is unique to DDO, you really need to get out more. No matter what MMO it is, the "top tier" will always be done with new content within the first week.
This is a design choice, not an inevitable force of nature.


The only issue I see here is that now, it seems, melee are doing what casters used to do, and the casters are the most vocal about how "unfair" it is. Brings me back to my lurking days, where everyone was going on and on about how casters were ruling the roost.
And they were. It is just because they do a poor job at balancing that there is always one group complaining. Boom, massive boost the the ones behind that trivializes 75% of the game. Then boom, another boost the now 2nd choice that gets them to a new height of power. And so until the game becomes easier on every update.



That's what the poster you quoted said. So, you agree with them, right? However, I'd point out that it is, indeed situational. That's why my AAs don't have just one bow, my assassins don't have just one dagger set, and my melee FvSs don't have just one weapon set.
LOL. Situational? +20MP is not situational, it is making TWF the new FOTM. Situational is what many of us asked for, and guess what, they just went the lazy way and said oh oh let's make the weapons have more....raw DPS. Seriously?



So most of this is more along the lines of "my epeen is smaller than their epeen, now, because they got updated".
Strawman.


After all, we have people posting in here that they're not having the problem, universally, that the OP is having, and then we have you, pointing out that people have already finished the content and are now farming 'shrooms.
I seriously doubt the word of those saying they are not having issues on evocation based casters. Running on the back of a barbarian is not "not having problems", it just means that you are riding on someone else's thunder.



Where I'd see a problem is that nobody could finish the content at all, instead of "I can finish it, but I have to work for it". Isn't that what the OP amounts to? After all, he didn't say he couldn't finish it, just that it was harder. It's amusing, to me, that you were all about trying to make the game harder, but when someone posts a thread that claims that it's harder, you're all about how it should be made easier, since they're not using a build that you find what, offensive?
No. What he is complaining about is that this content seems to favor the BAR BAR BAR approach to the game. Which is the only thing that we have seen in the last 3 updates. More power for melees, much of it being simply RAW DPS. Bloated HPs bags are an impediment to DC casters, but not to the meat grinders known as barbarian.

Honestly, if you cannot recognize the situation for what it is and have to resort to this rhetoric of straw man after straw man even after the OP has done an amazing job at documenting what is going on, there is little point in discussing with you.

[Ellihor]

they sure run fast XD
well by then instead of dancing then, try nuking them?

Was about to make some points on your other post, but this was just easier. This shows how much brain you have. Were in a thread where the topic is exactly the fact evocations spells reflex based are not working and this is what you suggest we do to. I wonder if you think anyone take you seriously. By the way, stop this egocentric stupidity. Most people have both a caster and a mlee, or TR betwen them in less than a week. There is no this childish war between caster and mlee, except in your head.

[Ellihor]

I guess the same way what I quoted answered what I said? This content favors grouping over soloing. Yet, here we have mages saying their spells aren't landing consistently, and yet, they're still able to solo. No matter what the devs do, people are going to find ways to steamroll the content. Nature of the beast, and if you think the situation is unique to DDO, you really need to get out more. No matter what MMO it is, the "top tier" will always be done with new content within the first week. The only issue I see here is that now, it seems, melee are doing what casters used to do, and the casters are the most vocal about how "unfair" it is. Brings me back to my lurking days, where everyone was going on and on about how casters were ruling the roost.



That's what the poster you quoted said. So, you agree with them, right? However, I'd point out that it is, indeed situational. That's why my AAs don't have just one bow, my assassins don't have just one dagger set, and my melee FvSs don't have just one weapon set. My one single weapon set will not be effective against everything I might come up against. Can I get by on fewer different sets now? Yes, I can. I can even if I don't use named loot, and just use lootgen stuff, I can get by with fewer sets. Otherwise, everyone would stay using Envenomed Blades, and not the epic version, all the way through the game. So most of this is more along the lines of "my epeen is smaller than their epeen, now, because they got updated".

It's likely that some of this content does need to be tweaked, we've already seen tweaks to ToEE, also in the first week. However, I'd say that threads like this aren't the norm for people running the content. After all, we have people posting in here that they're not having the problem, universally, that the OP is having, and then we have you, pointing out that people have already finished the content and are now farming 'shrooms. Where I'd see a problem is that nobody could finish the content at all, instead of "I can finish it, but I have to work for it". Isn't that what the OP amounts to? After all, he didn't say he couldn't finish it, just that it was harder. It's amusing, to me, that you were all about trying to make the game harder, but when someone posts a thread that claims that it's harder, you're all about how it should be made easier, since they're not using a build that you find what, offensive?


Let me clarify to you. The point of the thread is: evocation relfex based spells are not landing. Anything else is diversion (this includes any discussion about soloing/grouping, if it's hard or streamrolled, etc). I don't see how all this ideas you are bringing have anything to do with the thread but you still cirticise it.

And one thing you missed. I still did not find anyone saying theyr evocation spells were landing. All the posts that claim spells are working are about echantment and there's some about fortitude. Before giving your oppinion, make sure your not talking ****.

[Wizza]

next time read the entire post
To help you out, i asked what we melee's can do to help you out, since a dev mentioned the mobs hp go down once you hurt him enough.

I'm for once happy with all this, assuming it works as intended, melee's damage them, bring their saves down, then you guys come in and kill hem.

it almost requires that one dirty word in DDO, what was it again? oh yeah, teamwork.


You should probably know what you are talking about before talking. That mechanic was stated by Vargouille to be removed from ToEE and ToEE alone. Meh.




at least it will cut down in caster solo completion video's
a guy can only hope XD.........

So this is what you are worried about? Sigh. You should check more videos, it's been only melee videos since the BBP revamp.




It's likely that some of this content does need to be tweaked, we've already seen tweaks to ToEE, also in the first week. However, I'd say that threads like this aren't the norm for people running the content. After all, we have people posting in here that they're not having the problem, universally, that the OP is having, and then we have you, pointing out that people have already finished the content and are now farming 'shrooms. Where I'd see a problem is that nobody could finish the content at all, instead of "I can finish it, but I have to work for it". Isn't that what the OP amounts to? After all, he didn't say he couldn't finish it, just that it was harder. It's amusing, to me, that you were all about trying to make the game harder, but when someone posts a thread that claims that it's harder, you're all about how it should be made easier, since they're not using a build that you find what, offensive?

You mean the people coming with screenshots or claims on how they can hold, dance and necro mobs just fine when the OP is all about Reflex-based and Evocation spells, like shown in the OP? They for sure understood the topic of this thread, I bet!

Hard? Who even claimed this makes the quest hard? Maybe by Turbine's standards, where more HP = harder, sure. By my standards, this makes the quest only frustrating on Evocation based toons, since they cannot do their job reliably. Hard is something like EE Deathwyrm, EE MoD, EE Peaks. Hell, even the endfight with Zuggtmoy is hard but not thanks to Zuggtmoy, Hezrous and Dretches having super saves but because of the fight mechanic itself and Zuggtmoy spamming spells left, right and center.

[Chai]

No. What he is complaining about is that this content seems to favor the BAR BAR BAR approach to the game. Which is the only thing that we have seen in the last 3 updates. More power for melees, much of it being simply RAW DPS. Bloated HPs bags are an impediment to DC casters, but not to the meat grinders known as barbarian.

Honestly, if you cannot recognize the situation for what it is and have to resort to this rhetoric of straw man after straw man even after the OP has done an amazing job at documenting what is going on, there is little point in discussing with you.

The pattern in this situation is quite recognizable.

Game is too easy. []
Game is too hard. []

We've seen alot of both of these claims coming out of the same camp for half a year now.

Which is it?

Casters need to be nerfed. []
Casters arent powerful enough. []

We've seen alot of both of these claims coming out of the same camp for a few years now.

Which is it?

[lyrecono]

Was about to make some points on your other post, but this was just easier. This shows how much brain you have. Were in a thread where the topic is exactly the fact evocations spells reflex based are not working and this is what you suggest we do to. I wonder if you think anyone take you seriously. By the way, stop this egocentric stupidity. Most people have both a caster and a mlee, or TR betwen them in less than a week. There is no this childish war between caster and mlee, except in your head.

wow, so (insert smart joke that makes jerry cry)....

i will spell it out for you

Big stick man in party hits ugly monster over head
ugly monster's save goes down
Now your prissy elf can set it on fire

the solution you're looking for is called teamwork.

how nice you tr between them in a week
I however still remember trying to get into lv16-20 parties (when cap was 20) only to be told that the mana was better served on Blade bariers.
Or Still remember that i should tr into a monchker before applying to his lfm (stormhorns and wheloon)
And the list goes on, there is no war, just bad behavior based on how people perceive a class

mobs saves are fine, just like the 2hf nerf was fine and the dps between barb and bard was fine.

also, try this old chestnut

if you can't cut it on elite, there is always the hard difficulty.

[BigErkyKid]

The pattern in this situation is quite recognizable.

Game is too easy. []
Game is too hard. []

We've seen alot of both of these claims coming out of the same camp for half a year now.

Which is it?

Casters need to be nerfed. []
Casters arent powerful enough. []

We've seen alot of both of these claims coming out of the same camp for a few years now.

Which is it?

Have you considered the possibility that it is actually true that balance swings between casters - ranged and melees?

No one is saying that the quests are too hard (sadly!). What is being debated here is whether the quests punish too much DC casting. That is, whether it is way harder to complete on a DC caster compare to say a paladin or a barbarian.

Why do you bring this straw man?

[Wizza]

wow, so (insert smart joke that makes jerry cry)....

i will spell it out for you

Big stick man in party hits ugly monster over head
ugly monster's save goes down
Now your prissy elf can set it on fire


You should probably know what you are talking about before talking. That mechanic was stated by Vargouille to be removed from ToEE and ToEE alone. Meh.


End of it. You don't know what you are talking about.

[Enoach]

I guess I'm one of those odd ducks that like to run a DC Wizard.

However, I'm also one those that will switch up their spells to better my effectiveness as I pride myself in doing tricks that reduce resource use.

Now last night I got my wizard back up to level 26 so that I could equip my silver manual and grab my TF orb and scepter (Tier 2 no Tier 3)

With Ship buffs this brings my Caster attribute to 72 throw in a Yugo potion and sitting at 74 or +32

My DCs stand as follows
65 Necromancy
60 Evocation
52 Enchantment
52 Transmutation (switch equipment goes to 58)
52 Conjuration
52 Abjuration
52 Illusion

I did my initial tests in Shadowdancer so using the Charm and Consume

Now First off I do not expect to throw a spell in a Level 32 Quest and have 100% success especially when I'm still undergeared let alone 6 Levels under.

However, The spells I found to work best so far and I'm still experimenting with my list.

Greater Shout - Is not effected by FoM, the 60 DC (Evocation) seemed to be enough to stop a good portion of Mobs in their tracks. Not for a long time, but generally long enough to put distance between me and the mob and let the rest of the party finish the work.

Next was prismatic spray 60 DC (Evocation) the problem here is it is random so not a controllable effect so a lot of SP can be used in hoping and praying :)

Now even with the 52 Enchant DC, use of Mind Fog there were whole groups that had FoM - and as the OP pointed out nothing on the buff bar of the mob, so using the examine won't give you heads up. So I had some times when I could hold everything and sometimes when nothing could be held. However, I found that each group that I could not hold spells like FoD, CoD and Wail also did not appear to work. For these groups my best choices for loaded spells was to use Greater Shout and Epic Soul Eater or Epic Noxious Fang. Just a note I did get one Soul Stone. Part of my spending in the Harper tree gave me Int for To-Hit so it helped here.

Now, I am going to give more direct damage spells a try on EE and will even be experimenting with some more off the wall type spells such as Deep Slumber and Globes of Invulnerability (It is amazing how this spell is a great debuffer and is commonly overlooked)

I will also be experimenting with Fear - A spell a lot of people dislike but I have found to be very effective.

I used the Charm Ability out of Shadowdancer but will also be trying out charms in ToEE on EE. However, I've found the drastically reduced time the spell is effective to be one of the reasons I stopped using this type of spell in Epics. I did use Dominate Monster a couple times but mostly just to get the mob to stop beating on me :)

I will also be looking into Otto's dance spells, I usually combine this with Cloud kill or other AoE damage effects to soften up mobs.

As a necromancy caster I also use Ghoul Touch again the issue was with FoM and also being limited to Humaniod. But when FoM was not present it did work.

So I'm not done experimenting with my spells on EE, but I can tell you that the difference between EE and EH with no changes on the character are very noticeable. So what ever buff is present on EE did not seem to be present on EH.

[RoberttheBard]

Let me clarify to you. The point of the thread is: evocation relfex based spells are not landing. Anything else is diversion (this includes any discussion about soloing/grouping, if it's hard or streamrolled, etc). I don't see how all this ideas you are bringing have anything to do with the thread but you still cirticise it.

And one thing you missed. I still did not find anyone saying theyr evocation spells were landing. All the posts that claim spells are working are about echantment and there's some about fortitude. Before giving your oppinion, make sure your not talking ****.

Here's another thought, read what I'm responding to? I realize you seem to like being super important, but yours isn't the only train of thought, and considering who I was addressing, I use that term loosely, being followed in this thread.

It's funny, though, that glancing at the OP shows me the spells are, in fact landing, they're just landing on mobs that are making their saves. After all, the numbers behind the attack are not 0. So perhaps, before you call someone to task about misconstruing what's being discussed, you don't misconstrue what's being discussed. Evidently you didn't read the OP? He's not claiming they're not landing, he's complaining that they have really high reflex saves, and keep saving against his Evocation spells, which means that while they aren't hitting as hard as they might, they're still hitting.

For your perusal: The OP (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/458531-So-Vargouille-and-Devs-about-ToEE-s-and-Saves-and-changes-from-Lamannia?p=5584821&viewfull=1#post5584821). The pics are about 3/4 of the way down the post, if you have any doubts.

[Wizza]

Here's another thought, read what I'm responding to? I realize you seem to like being super important, but yours isn't the only train of thought, and considering who I was addressing, I use that term loosely, being followed in this thread.

It's funny, though, that glancing at the OP shows me the spells are, in fact landing, they're just landing on mobs that are making their saves. After all, the numbers behind the attack are not 0. So perhaps, before you call someone to task about misconstruing what's being discussed, you don't misconstrue what's being discussed. Evidently you didn't read the OP? He's not claiming they're not landing, he's complaining that they have really high reflex saves, and keep saving against his Evocation spells, which means that while they aren't hitting as hard as they might, they're still hitting.

For your perusal: The OP (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/458531-So-Vargouille-and-Devs-about-ToEE-s-and-Saves-and-changes-from-Lamannia?p=5584821&viewfull=1#post5584821). The pics are about 3/4 of the way down the post, if you have any doubts.

Yeah, that's what Evocation spells do on non-evasion mobs...

Not landing = Saving. If you wanna argue semantics, not really the place.

[Cetus]

Well there is my DC with buffs and debuffs in the OP. What is yours? I find what happens is exactly described by moo_cow some replies below yours, with a few exception with mobs always saving like Zuggy and her trash, Kelno etc etc.




I was running a 72 evocation DC before debuffs, and like a 62 enchantment. I also throw around soundburst which I think was high 60's almost hitting 70. All evo spells (obviously) target reflex saves, so that is useless against the orc archers, but they hold well if they don't have that fom buff - if they do then I throw soundburst, and sometimes I get them, their fort save is moderately high - but not as high as their reflex. I agree that there are some mobs with stupid high saves, namely the temple archers. I also agree that the named dudes like kelno are borderline broken as far as their resistances go to spells saves wise and damage wise.

My only point of contention is that, despite some of these really resistant mobs, I still found myself blasting through hordes of mobs with not that much pot usage. Things like ruin, hellball, scorching ray that have no save gets us by. If all of the mobs also fail their saves against everything I throw - I suspect that it might get too easy on a caster.

The real problem I have is that our two big damage spells - energy burst and dragon breath, don't get amped by anything except charisma modifier. That leaves their DC like 7 points lower than the rest of my evo spells, which is annoying. Those really don't hit much.

[JOTMON]

I was running a 72 evocation DC before debuffs, and like a 62 enchantment. I also throw around soundburst which I think was high 60's almost hitting 70. All evo spells (obviously) target reflex saves, so that is useless against the orc archers, but they hold well if they don't have that fom buff - if they do then I throw soundburst, and sometimes I get them, their fort save is moderately high - but not as high as their reflex. I agree that there are some mobs with stupid high saves, namely the temple archers. I also agree that the named dudes like kelno are borderline broken as far as their resistances go to spells saves wise and damage wise.

My only point of contention is that, despite some of these really resistant mobs, I still found myself blasting through hordes of mobs with not that much pot usage. Things like ruin, hellball, scorching ray that have no save gets us by. If all of the mobs also fail their saves against everything I throw - I suspect that it might get too easy on a caster.

The real problem I have is that our two big damage spells - energy burst and dragon breath, don't get amped by anything except charisma modifier. That leaves their DC like 7 points lower than the rest of my evo spells, which is annoying. Those really don't hit much.

I would expect for players like you and Wizza that your casters should be hitting 99% of mobs with little to no-fail considering you guys are running near max DC builds.


So the 72-75 Evocation range is sometimes working.. doesn't bode well for the non-uber triple completionist/triple epic completionist\triple iconic completionist Topped of with the TF gear and all the ideal gear/augments.

Where's that leave the regular players who have 2-3 past lives a couple epic lives and some decent gear but not T3 TF.

Is the expectation that players run to cap get triple everything completionists then go back and run content as over level players to be functional contributing casters.. or just TR to the flavor of the month Paladin/Barbarian..

My casters are pot heavy in there, my cleric feels like dead weight, .. the only toon I am comfortable bringing in is my 2nd life WF Paladin. who is more useful than my caster or cleric..

[Vanhooger]

I would expect for players like you and Wizza that your casters should be hitting 99% of mobs with little to no-fail considering you guys are running near max DC builds.


So the 72-75 Evocation range is sometimes working.. doesn't bode well for the non-uber triple completionist/triple epic completionist\triple iconic completionist Topped of with the TF gear and all the ideal gear/augments.

Where's that leave the regular players who have 2-3 past lives a couple epic lives and some decent gear but not T3 TF.

Is the expectation that players run to cap get triple everything completionists then go back and run content as over level players to be functional contributing casters.. or just TR to the flavor of the month Paladin/Barbarian..

My casters are pot heavy in there, my cleric feels like dead weight, .. the only toon I am comfortable bringing in is my 2nd life WF Paladin. who is more useful than my caster or cleric..

+1

[Blackheartox]

I would expect for players like you and Wizza that your casters should be hitting 99% of mobs with little to no-fail considering you guys are running near max DC builds.


So the 72-75 Evocation range is sometimes working.. doesn't bode well for the non-uber triple completionist/triple epic completionist\triple iconic completionist Topped of with the TF gear and all the ideal gear/augments.

Where's that leave the regular players who have 2-3 past lives a couple epic lives and some decent gear but not T3 TF.

Is the expectation that players run to cap get triple everything completionists then go back and run content as over level players to be functional contributing casters.. or just TR to the flavor of the month Paladin/Barbarian..

My casters are pot heavy in there, my cleric feels like dead weight, .. the only toon I am comfortable bringing in is my 2nd life WF Paladin. who is more useful than my caster or cleric..


I can repeat this again, if im grouped with people as a 3x all former sorc with maxed gear i had no issues.
But when i try it solo, i end up hitting a big high wall i just cant pass since i lack dps for some named enemies.
Groupish, casters are fine, solo no.
Barb groupish or palie is fine, solo yes.

Casters had a hard time to reach dcs high enough during horns era, after necro4 got epicd we passed that hurdle with ep litany and 11 easy to get items + th forged n shadow gear.

But now casters have a different issue, not enough bursty dps imo.
Example as im a epic levels barb on my former sorc, all you can see in pchat from me is, this is so broken, this is so broken after a sorc life that has every single piece of loot you need or can get for maximum efficiency.
And some mobs having super high saves hurts like half my spellbook, even if i went evoc full focus i woulndt manage to land spells but would see the "saves for half damage" pop to offten.
If for example my ligh bolt sla can hit for lets say 2 k and double hit for 4, some might say wow its good, but reflex save makes it 1 k damage with rebound being nonactivated most of the time.
It is also dumb that i sometimes get "half" damage on held mobs.

Point is, casters dont do very well vs meatbags since they dont have burst options imo, and if a maxed character has issues, then i dont even want to know where that puts first or few lifers or completionists without maxed gear

[jalont]

The pattern in this situation is quite recognizable.

Game is too easy. []
Game is too hard. []

We've seen alot of both of these claims coming out of the same camp for half a year now.

Which is it?

Casters need to be nerfed. []
Casters arent powerful enough. []

We've seen alot of both of these claims coming out of the same camp for a few years now.

Which is it?

Its actually quite easy for the game to be too easy and casters not to be "powerful enough" because that's what we have now. It's what happens when the devs take the wrong approach and give buffs instead of nerfs. Things that get buffed become too powerful, changing the way the game is played. In the new DDO, things that weren't buffed become too weak and fall behind. At the same time, the New DDO is entirely too easy. Of course none of this had to happen. We could have just nerfed the overpowered things to begin with like many of us said.

[Vanhooger]

I can repeat this again, if im grouped with people as a 3x all former sorc with maxed gear i had no issues.
But when i try it solo, i end up hitting a big high wall i just cant pass since i lack dps for some named enemies.
Groupish, casters are fine, solo no.
Barb groupish or palie is fine, solo yes.

Casters had a hard time to reach dcs high enough during horns era, after necro4 got epicd we passed that hurdle with ep litany and 11 easy to get items + th forged n shadow gear.

But now casters have a different issue, not enough bursty dps imo.
Example as im a epic levels barb on my former sorc, all you can see in pchat from me is, this is so broken, this is so broken after a sorc life that has every single piece of loot you need or can get for maximum efficiency.
And some mobs having super high saves hurts like half my spellbook, even if i went evoc full focus i woulndt manage to land spells but would see the "saves for half damage" pop to offten.
If for example my ligh bolt sla can hit for lets say 2 k and double hit for 4, some might say wow its good, but reflex save makes it 1 k damage with rebound being nonactivated most of the time.
It is also dumb that i sometimes get "half" damage on held mobs.

Point is, casters dont do very well vs meatbags since they dont have burst options imo, and if a maxed character has issues, then i dont even want to know where that puts first or few lifers or completionists without maxed gear

All the buffs to mellee & ranged inevitably means that if you want a mob last more than 1 barb cleave, the easiest solution is increase HP for the devs.

This end in big bag of HP that DC caster, especially Wizards will never have enough SP to help the party, not even think on going solo.

As well I noticed that the dev's probably hate dc caster, cos every new quest or raid have very few shrine or none. Now, we all know that shiradi do not need them because they have big frigging temp sp if splashed fvs and lots of dps with low cost spell , but what about DC caster?

Now with U25 they made DC caster even more awful with those absurd save, and obviously shiradi dont care about save, they're spell and proco do not have save.

Edit: forgot to mention that maximized cost of 1 for shiradi (wiz splashed fvs) is basically silly.

[RoberttheBard]

Its actually quite easy for the game to be too easy and casters not to be "powerful enough" because that's what we have now. It's what happens when the devs take the wrong approach and give buffs instead of nerfs. Things that get buffed become too powerful, changing the way the game is played. In the new DDO, things that weren't buffed become too weak and fall behind. At the same time, the New DDO is entirely too easy. Of course none of this had to happen. We could have just nerfed the overpowered things to begin with like many of us said.

So if the previous passes had been nerfs to casters, who ruled the roost for the longest time, we wouldn't have threads like this one? You see, the "unintended" side effect of nerfing is that it buffs everyone that didn't get hit with it, on paper. When those melees in question are still outperforming the nerfed classes, they are still going to be here with the same complaints, so and so can do more damage than I can. Pretty much nature of the beast, if you hadn't noticed. The hilarious part, to me, is this blanket claim that now, suddenly, casters are underpowered, because mobs in one quest make their saving throws against spells that, in other content, they fail miserably at. At least, the OP only used one quest for his post, which, ironically, is more "the mobs saves are too high", not "my class now sucks because I can't do in one quest what I do in every other quest in the game". That extrapolation has come from others who, in an effort to forward another agenda, have sensationalized the issue beyond what it really is, the OP feels like the saves are too high.

There have been some points made to indicate that their saves are borked, but, I'd like to point out that these same conditions, saving while held, for example, also exist for players, but I haven't seen anyone suggesting that that's broken. My Ranger got held, just last night, in EH Reclaiming the Rift, and I still made my reflex save on a fireball. So if this condition is broken when it applies to mobs, isn't it just as broken when it applies to players? Maybe, at 24 now, my Reflex Save is just too high, and the mobs are on their forum complaining about it? The moral of this anecdotal story is: be careful what you wish for, you might just get it. In the end, if they fix one, they'll inadvertently fix the other. I wonder, how much rage will there be then?

[Ellihor]

So if the previous passes had been nerfs to casters, who ruled the roost for the longest time

Last time casters were overpowered was before u14 and it's getting 5 years old. Anyways, even if they were overpowered until now, the fact a class was overpowered for X time doesn't justify it being gimped.



There have been some points made to indicate that their saves are borked, but, I'd like to point out that these same conditions, saving while held, for example, also exist for players, but I haven't seen anyone suggesting that that's broken. My Ranger got held, just last night, in EH Reclaiming the Rift, and I still made my reflex save on a fireball. So if this condition is broken when it applies to mobs, isn't it just as broken when it applies to players? Maybe, at 24 now, my Reflex Save is just too high, and the mobs are on their forum complaining about it? The moral of this anecdotal story is: be careful what you wish for, you might just get it. In the end, if they fix one, they'll inadvertently fix the other. I wonder, how much rage will there be then?

You keep doing these silly posts. Stop comparing mobs to players, that's just dumb. Don't feel like wrinting why, but could give a ton of reasons if you asked.

[jalont]

So if the previous passes had been nerfs to casters, who ruled the roost for the longest time, we wouldn't have threads like this one? You see, the "unintended" side effect of nerfing is that it buffs everyone that didn't get hit with it, on paper. When those melees in question are still outperforming the nerfed classes, they are still going to be here with the same complaints, so and so can do more damage than I can. Pretty much nature of the beast, if you hadn't noticed. The hilarious part, to me, is this blanket claim that now, suddenly, casters are underpowered, because mobs in one quest make their saving throws against spells that, in other content, they fail miserably at. At least, the OP only used one quest for his post, which, ironically, is more "the mobs saves are too high", not "my class now sucks because I can't do in one quest what I do in every other quest in the game". That extrapolation has come from others who, in an effort to forward another agenda, have sensationalized the issue beyond what it really is, the OP feels like the saves are too high.

There have been some points made to indicate that their saves are borked, but, I'd like to point out that these same conditions, saving while held, for example, also exist for players, but I haven't seen anyone suggesting that that's broken. My Ranger got held, just last night, in EH Reclaiming the Rift, and I still made my reflex save on a fireball. So if this condition is broken when it applies to mobs, isn't it just as broken when it applies to players? Maybe, at 24 now, my Reflex Save is just too high, and the mobs are on their forum complaining about it? The moral of this anecdotal story is: be careful what you wish for, you might just get it. In the end, if they fix one, they'll inadvertently fix the other. I wonder, how much rage will there be then?

Of course people would complain if there were nerfs. People here will complain no matter what happens because this game seems to attract a high percentage of mentally unstable people. I don't care what people complain about, I just want a good game. As it is now, DDO is completely broken. The reason it is broken is because of all these buffs.

[IronClan]

The pattern in this situation is quite recognizable.

Game is too easy. []
Game is too hard. []

We've seen alot of both of these claims coming out of the same camp for half a year now.

Which is it?

Casters need to be nerfed. []
Casters arent powerful enough. []

We've seen alot of both of these claims coming out of the same camp for a few years now.

Which is it?

The pattern you think is there is an artifact of selection bias, literally no one who "was saying the game is too hard" is now saying "the game is too easy". Of all the posters on this forum you most of all love to make this same sort of claim over and over about anything you disagree with. Apparently you like to paint people you disagree with as flip flopping or hypocritical. What you're really seeing is something called selection bias. You're attributing stances to people in a general way without specifics and attributing a contradictory stance to them also without specifics, in an attempt to make yourself sound like some sort of authority.

You did this a lot in P2W threads often citing "those who used to disagree with me who are now agreeing with me". You never put your money where your mouth is then either.

At a guess I suspect you literally can't pull up one single post by someone saying the game is too hard within a reasonable time frame who is now saying it's too easy... I can't imagine why anyone would have such a stance. Now perhaps if their opinion changed slowly over years as they went from new player to seasoned Vet you might find someone a few years ago saying it and now saying it's too easy. But that doesn't seem to fit the context you are using, implying that people are fickle, and can't decide what they want.

You said "alot" and you used "camp" to imply a group; so find us 5 examples of this flip floping stance... hell I'll be generous find us 3 examples... No you wont do 3? Okay how about 2? Find a plurality of people doing what you accuse no one in particular of doing.

Or hey maybe stop going back to these same crass eye rolling generalizations?