Should paladin holy sword scale with paladin levels?

[janave]

At the moment it seems like 14 Paladin / 6 Whatever* is a superior weapon user to most other options. (Not including the bug abuser builds)
No question about Paladins needed a buff, but did multi-class builds needed such a boost in offense?

Not sure what would be the most ideal scaling for Holy Sword, but what i think would work out well is:


Tier 1: Paladin Level 14: Holy Sword - grants stacking expanded critical threat.
Tier 2: Paladin Level 16: Holy Sword - grants +1 stacking enhancement bonus to the weapon. (= +1atk/dmg)
Tier 3: Paladin Level 18: Holy Sword - grants +1 critical multiplier to the weapon.
Tier 4: Paladin Level 20: Holy Sword - grants another +1 stacking enhancement bonus to the weapon. (= +2atk/dmg)

[walkin_dude]

At the moment it seems like 14 Paladin / 6 Whatever* is a superior weapon user to most other options. (Not including the bug abuser builds)
No question about Paladins needed a buff, but did multi-class builds needed such a boost in offense?

Not sure what would be the most ideal scaling for Holy Sword, but what i think would work out well is:


Tier 1: Paladin Level 14: Holy Sword - grants stacking expanded critical threat.
Tier 2: Paladin Level 16: Holy Sword - grants +1 stacking enhancement bonus to the weapon. (= +1atk/dmg)
Tier 3: Paladin Level 18: Holy Sword - grants +1 critical multiplier to the weapon.
Tier 4: Paladin Level 20: Holy Sword - grants another +1 stacking enhancement bonus to the weapon. (= +2atk/dmg)

Interesting idea, but i'd still curb the "low-hanging fruit a bit.

Tier 1: Paladin Level 14: Holy Sword - grants +1 stacking enhancement bonus to the weapon. (= +1atk/dmg)
Tier 2: Paladin Level 16: Holy Sword - grants stacking expanded critical threat
Tier 3: Paladin Level 18: Holy Sword - grants another +1 stacking enhancement bonus to the weapon. (= +2atk/dmg)
Tier 4: Paladin Level 20: Holy Sword - grants +1 critical multiplier to the weapon

That'd suit me better. It's in epic levels that I'll really enjoy (and need) the full suite of bonuses, anyway.

[Gauthaag]

nope - holy sword spell is abomination:)

either make alignment restriction weight something - or tie holy sword to deity favored weapon to make at least bit sense.
atm paladins are getting all the shinies of the class without having any disadvantages - its like allowing arcanes freely cast with heavy armor on or rogues use evasion with fullplate n tower shield.

[dkyle]

nope - holy sword spell is abomination:)

either make alignment restriction weight something - or tie holy sword to deity favored weapon to make at least bit sense.
atm paladins are getting all the shinies of the class without having any disadvantages - its like allowing arcanes freely cast with heavy armor on or rogues use evasion with fullplate n tower shield.

That's silly. Alignment was never a real restriction that balanced anything. PnP balance has absolutely nothing to do with DDO balance, anyway.

And no thanks on making favored weapons any more significant. Hard lock-ins to single weapon types are pointless and boring.

[Gauthaag]

That's silly. Alignment was never a real restriction that balanced anything. PnP balance has absolutely nothing to do with DDO balance, anyway.

And no thanks on making favored weapons any more significant. Hard lock-ins to single weapon types are pointless and boring.

thats it - whole paladin concept is based on alignment restriction. PnP paladin class feature were outweighted by this. DDO has same class features for paladin outweighted by what then, if this is not the isue?


and asking for even more power to holy sword is even more silly.

[kmoustakas]

At the moment it seems like 14 Paladin / 6 Whatever* is a superior weapon user to most other options. (Not including the bug abuser builds)
No question about Paladins needed a buff, but did multi-class builds needed such a boost in offense?

Not sure what would be the most ideal scaling for Holy Sword, but what i think would work out well is:


Tier 1: Paladin Level 14: Holy Sword - grants stacking expanded critical threat.
Tier 2: Paladin Level 16: Holy Sword - grants +1 stacking enhancement bonus to the weapon. (= +1atk/dmg)
Tier 3: Paladin Level 18: Holy Sword - grants +1 critical multiplier to the weapon.
Tier 4: Paladin Level 20: Holy Sword - grants another +1 stacking enhancement bonus to the weapon. (= +2atk/dmg)

I do not believe this is necessary. Holy sword is indeed strong but it requires a minimum of 14 level investment.

[janave]

I do not believe this is necessary. Holy sword is indeed strong but it requires a minimum of 14 level investment.

For those who looking to optimize weapon damage, what other level 14 class investments provide a competitive alternative? (Preferably without sacrificing defenses.)

[Saekee]

That's silly. Alignment was never a real restriction that balanced anything. PnP balance has absolutely nothing to do with DDO balance, anyway.

And no thanks on making favored weapons any more significant. Hard lock-ins to single weapon types are pointless and boring.
I had a thread going about limiting the spell to long swords based on the in-game past tendency to make paladin weapons out of them. Other posters suggested limiting the spell to favored deity weapons.

The OP's idea is very good IMHO since it gets rid of the 14 pally/x competition for so many past builds while preserving their strength.

As for now, paladin is the easy button. Use it for 1) training wheels 2) to grind out the shinies in difficult content for more personally appealing playstyles or 3) being an easy multiclass build design base with pally 14 or 15

[unbongwah]

and asking for even more power to holy sword is even more silly.
Except OP isn't asking for more power to HS; they're suggesting the bonuses should be staggered out so only pure pallies get the current full benefits of Holy Sword, in order to tamp down on multiclassed monstrosities. :) In particular, the Mechanic changes still make rog 5 / pal 14 one of the best repeater builds, which is kinda silly.

I agree that HS in its current form is overpowered; but changing it will nerf a lot of builds and cause a big uproar.

[Enoach]

Holy Sword is a powerful spell for an investment of 14 levels and being Lawful Good

The spell does not need to scale with levels. The only aspect that needs to change is that it is applied After the IC Feat so that it is not providing +2 to Critical Range.

[dkyle]

thats it - whole paladin concept is based on alignment restriction. PnP paladin class feature were outweighted by this. DDO has same class features for paladin outweighted by what then, if this is not the isue?

They were not actually "outweighed" by the alignment restriction. Roleplay restrictions simply do not balance out mechanical features. In general, anything that totally relies on case by case rulings by a DM is not "balance". Balance is only definable between game mechanics, and roleplaying is not mechanical.

The real, mechanical effects of a Lawful Good alignment are minor, and largely present in DDO already. Strip out their alignment restrictions entirely in 3.5 PnP, and they'd still be mediocre at best (since they're not full casters).

DDO's Paladins do not have the same class features as PnP Paladins. No class does. That's why, even if alignment were a meaningful balancing factor in PnP, it wouldn't necessarily be one in DDO. PnP mechanics are, at most, a source of inspiration for similar mechanics in DDO. Anything as sensitive as balance is automatically lost entirely in the translation (not that 3.5 had any meaningful balance to begin with). All mechanics in DDO must be balanced anew, on their own basis, and PnP has almost nothing to offer towards this.

Case in point: Paladins have had (almost) all PnP features since the start, with as much meaning to their alignment restriction as now, and were gimped for much of DDO's past. Even compared to Fighters, which they clearly outshine in 3.5 PnP.


and asking for even more power to holy sword is even more silly.

It's an extra +1 enhancement bonus. That's barely anything; just makes it so the change isn't strictly a nerf. If it's so much of a problem, it could be easily removed, and the OP's main point would still stand.

I would also agree with something similar for Bards. The initial Swashbuckler stance should lose -1 multiplier (and remove the increased range for picks), but give those back in the level 18 Swashbuckler core. Swashbuckler is an absurd benefit for just 3 levels of Bard.


The only aspect that needs to change is that it is applied After the IC Feat so that it is not providing +2 to Critical Range.

I'd say only if the second +1 crit range is given back in level 18 or 20 KotC core. A DPS-built Pali shouldn't get nerfed. It's the fact that so much DPS is basically free, even to tank Palis, that's the main problem.

Also, only if the change doesn't mess up Swashbuckler. That puts all affected weapons at the same crit power for good reason. Breaking that would be just a pointless screw-over to current characters, not a meaningfully balancing nerf (since Rapier would be unaffected).

[bsquishwizzy]

That's silly. Alignment was never a real restriction that balanced anything. PnP balance has absolutely nothing to do with DDO balance, anyway.

And no thanks on making favored weapons any more significant. Hard lock-ins to single weapon types are pointless and boring.

No, Gauthaag is ccorrect. The original Holy Sword made it a good-aligned weapon. That only applies to evil-aligned creatures, not to neutrals. If they would roll back the nerfs, add the alignment restrictions to the damage / criticals, that would give the Pally some melee teeth without making them completely OP.

But....they did an across-the-board thing with Holy Sword, which led to complaining (because they went from laughable DPS to one of the top tier DPS literally overnight), and then to nerfs. Paladins are SUPPOSED to go after evil creatures, not the neutrals.

Alignment restrictions have ALWAYS been a part of the Paladin since its inception. And that should remain the case here.

[dkyle]

No, Gauthaag is ccorrect. The original Holy Sword made it a good-aligned weapon. That only applies to evil-aligned creatures, not to neutrals. If they would roll back the nerfs, add the alignment restrictions to the damage / criticals, that would give the Pally some melee teeth without making them completely OP.

But....they did an across-the-board thing with Holy Sword, which led to complaining (because they went from laughable DPS to one of the top tier DPS literally overnight), and then to nerfs. Paladins are SUPPOSED to go after evil creatures, not the neutrals.

Alignment restrictions have ALWAYS been a part of the Paladin since its inception. And that should remain the case here.

Ah, perhaps I misunderstood. "Alignment restrictions" didn't imply "extra damage that only works vs evil" to me. Thought it was referring to things like the code of Lawful Good conduct in PnP. Only being able to apply extra damage to evil things certain does significantly limit Paladin power. Although in terms of balance, Smite Evil working against anything still would not have meant much in PnP.

Still, I'm not a fan of alignment-specific DPS, just as I'm not a fan of favored-enemy and bane effects. It's a lousy way to balance things, because it implies that character power changes dramatically with whatever (largely arbitrary) mixture of mobs the devs add in content. It makes maintaining balance way more difficult.

[Uska]

Yes but I think your giving to much to lower level

[FlaviusMaximus]

Multiclassing with Holy Sword is a problem, but only because Holy Sword is a problem by itself. Whether another class is being added into the mix or not, the ability provides way too much.

My suggestion has been to have the spell cover the expanded crit range and then tier five of KOTC covers the multiplier. That way, the spell can still be enjoyed in its entirety, but only by Paladins who take tier 5 in the Paladin DPS tree (makes sense, right?) rather than sword and board specialists, tanks who invest all of their points in defense, and multiclass builds that spend all of their AP and take tier 5s elsewhere. The best offensive ability in the game should require a bit more than simply taking 14, 18, or even 20 levels of a fantastic class. It should require some serious AP.

[Enderoc]

Paladins did require a minimum starting Charisma which I think should be the case here.

[dkyle]

Paladins did require a minimum starting Charisma which I think should be the case here.

Not in 3.5. That would be a very major change in how classes work in DDO. And I don't see much of a reason to do it.