Epic Assassins Kiss total failure

[bbqzor]

I am not even sure what to say. You guys said numerous places that Assassin DC would be partially accounted for by the addition of new items. You guys also said on lama that this dagger would be an anti-ghost assassin dagger, and many posters pointed out how completely terrible that was, being that you cant assassinate ghosts. And then you said some changes would happen. And what did you change?

http://ddowiki.com/images/Epic_Assassin%27s_Kiss.png

From lama, Ghost Touch was dropped, and Improved Deception was added. Thats it. What about the rest of it.

You still cannot apply assassinate to undead, which means it and incorporeal bane are basically exclusive mods. You cant even apply sneak attack to incorporeal without using Assassins Trick, meaning that only if the ability is available can you even use the deception portion against them. Same with having this on an item with an extra multiplier, undead resist that. Why is this mod here? Why not anything more useful? Virtually any other kind of bane would be better, or another effect entirely.

And Greater Dispelling (unless stealth fixed somehow, which I all kinds of doubt) will strip negative effects you apply to the mob off it. And thats if it even works, which it probably wont because the Caster Level of the effect is (or was, if somehow fixed) bugged to be way below level. This means it has a choice between doing nothing, or potentially removes Assassins Trick, rendering the combo above even more sketchy. Theres just no reason to put this here, rogues apply a ton of debuffs now and all this does is offer the potential to remove them. Anything would be better here, and depending on the current bug status of the effects caster level and targeting, potentially even nothing.

Look it doesnt even have to be damage mods here, though obviously those are good. What about Sundering? That applies a -1 Fort Penalty (stacks to 5 over 15s) as a weapon mutation, meaning any mob youve already hit becomes easier to assassinate. It basically never shows up on rogue gear, and it really ought to. And it applies a lot slower and stacks to less than just w/p so its hardly any significant power change. Or Improved Destruction (since its high level epic, maybe reg for heroic), that helps lower fort without resorting to just another armor piercing item. And you know what, both potentially help to-hit, which can be nice for rogues in some situations.

Obviously theres other loot threads but I wanted to single this out. Its literally the only item that got a response in the whole lama time. This one item. And it still wound up lacking, during the Rogue Pass no less, after specifically being promised as part of the DC issue solution. If any one named item ought to have come through looking like a gem, this shouldve been it (obviously I think the elemental crafting shouldve been nice too but thats another topic).

I sincerely hope this can be adjusted, and retroactively adjusted for the ones that dropped. Note that Im not asking this to outperform Thunderforged T3. Nor should it wholly eliminate the need for a T2 (hence why not just another armor piercing etc). But it needs to hold up to T1 and offer some good options compared to T2. While x3 looks nice, the other mods make no sense. And they should. There is ample room to make this thing a good "assassins" weapon without just adding "moar dips". I kind of cant believe it got this far without such attention, but maybe this feedback can change that. Hopefully thank you, because as it stands this weapon cuts deep (unless youre a wiz/rog in wraith form, then it doesnt cut you but you take bane damage instead...).

EDIT: Sable Shadow suggested Tendon Slice as an option. This is a good one as well since it makes it easier to allow a rogue to re-hide/escape in the event of a failure by slowing the mobs movement. It also has potential synergy with Hamstring, which is a sneak attack based feat, even though it sees little use. And it is very under-represented in rogue items, and is not simply more damage. A flavorful non-dps stealth tool is good utility thinking for this item and should also be considered, alongside the two effects mentioned above (sundering, improved destruction). Cheers.


EDIT: kmoustakas suggested that the mod choice was made as a result of story elements. In that case, Ghostly makes infinite more sense than Incorporeal Bane. It not only better represents the dagger as being "ethereal bladed" but actually adds to stealth skills which will be utilized by an assassin trying to assassinate. This, rather than a mod which will basically never be used, and brings nothing to the player using the item. Changing Incorporeal Bane to Ghostly would be a successful design solution. Cheers

[CThruTheEgo]

Yeah when I first saw this, I knew immediately that I'd be sticking with my assassinate +4 gear. I completely agree that it's a ridiculous combination of effects for all the reasons you mention.

And good suggestions for improvement. Switching both greater incorporeal bane and greater dispelling with sundering and improved destruction would give this weapon a variety of useful effects that benefit assassins.

[slarden]

Look it doesnt even have to be damage mods here, though obviously those are good. What about Sundering? That applies a -1 Fort Penalty (stacks to 5 over 15s) as a weapon mutation, meaning any mob youve already hit becomes easier to assassinate. It basically never shows up on rogue gear, and it really ought to. And it applies a lot slower and stacks to less than just w/p so its hardly any significant power change. Or Improved Destruction (since its high level epic, maybe reg for heroic), that helps lower fort without resorting to just another armor piercing item. And you know what, both potentially help to-hit, which can be nice for rogues in some situations.

Whenever I etr and use midnight greetings it reminds me how much I like improved paralyzing. I would like to see that on the dagger.

[Azarddoze]

The negative side of not having tiered loot is this.

For the reality of a casual player who never really swaps weapons actively, this can be great in high-undead (but not exclusively) area. For anyone who plays EE... lol really?

[Mandelia]

Hey hey hey there. This dagger obviously fits the gearset of the one dev who tries to run an assassin. Don't you feel silly now?

[Kielbasa]

Thematically con damage, poison damage, and negative level proc all make perfect sense for an assassin's kiss as well as relevant for the class.

[Pehtis]

I am not even sure what to say. You guys said numerous places that Assassin DC would be partially accounted for by the addition of new items. You guys also said on lama that this dagger would be an anti-ghost assassin dagger, and many posters pointed out how completely terrible that was, being that you cant assassinate ghosts. And then you said some changes would happen. And what did you change?

http://ddowiki.com/images/Epic_Assassin%27s_Kiss.png

From lama, Ghost Touch was dropped, and Improved Deception was added. Thats it. What about the rest of it.

.


Greater Incorporeal Bane -> Holy Burst

Greater Dispelling -> Aligned.


Both changes are low level suffixes but rarely found on same item. Now you have a must have dagger with that very useful crit range.

[Saekee]

It has an increased multiplier. That is nice, no?

You need more options with improved deception--now at least we have five.

You can make a similar argument about the 3BC epic rapier that hits undead, yet people use it due to the expanded threat range

This is a weapon for niche uses, not an ultimate assassin dagger.

[bbqzor]

Thematically con damage, poison damage, and negative level proc all make perfect sense for an assassin's kiss as well as relevant for the class.

Yes, but they already exist on other rogue items. I was hoping to see some different-but-also-rogue-themed effects to add variety. A new tool choice makes more sense and more excitement than an up-level version of existing loot. At least in my opinion. Its time some of those rogue friendly things that just dont show up on rogue gear, show up.


Greater Incorporeal Bane -> Holy Burst
Greater Dispelling -> Aligned.

Now you have a must have dagger with that very useful crit range.

No. This isnt a replacement for dr breakers, nor should it be "must have" or best-in-slot. It should be desirable for what it does, alongside other options not instead of them. For rogues looking to dr bypass there are other choices, and dr bypass is not necessary to land assassinates (indeed that is one time it basically doesnt matter at all... the idea being the mob dies regardless of dmg/hp).


You can make a similar argument about the 3BC epic rapier that hits undead, yet people use it due to the expanded threat range

No I cant make a similar argument about the Mutineers Blade. That weapon is for two things, good dps on undead (it delivers), and good threat range for swashs (it delivers). It was part of the loot with the swash pass, so makes sense to work with that class. The mods clearly work together. None of them are bugged and/or undesirable. It hit its mark by giving a weapon with good class appeal, and also good utility appeal. Its a well designed item. Lots of people can use it, from tempests to swashs to rogues and so on. Nice item.

The only thing similar is that this is a rogue item during the rogue pass. Its design purpose was, explicitly, to help address DC issues. It should be desirable to use it when you need more DC. Its not. The other mods do not help with that. In addition, they do not help each other. And worst of all, some of them are counter productive to the class abilities for the very class the item itself is intended to help. It is the total opposite of the rapier, it doesnt work for its goal, and it doesnt work together. It just doesnt do its job one bit. Basically no one can use it. Not nice item.


This is a weapon for niche uses, not an ultimate assassin dagger.

I pointedly mentioned how I am not requesting some "ultimate" weapon. Specifically, that should not be the goal. But rather to simply have a dagger that makes sense for its job. It, more than any other weapon in the whole pack, has a specific job. Only one single person can use the +DC boost, and it was put into game solely because the devs felt an item with a larger +DC boost was necessary rather than using other methods to balance DC. If that target audience does not desire the item, the item has failed.

The changes suggested hardly result in any form of "ultimate" dagger. The niche its for is assassinating stuff, likely on EE where the extra DC is needed. To that end, the mods should work on stuff that assassinate works on, and/or be thematic with the build sporting that ability. This is hardly some permanently-used result here. No ones swapping out their TF or Agony for improved destruction and sundering. Unless they need DC. Thats why asking for just +dmg isnt helpful here, but getting the weapon back on point is.

If you have other ideas please, present them, but I just dont see any way to defend the item in its current incarnation. Its the poster child example of why the devs have said many places that "toee patch is coming" and "rogue patch is coming". They know its not where it needs to be. This is simply one spot where its critical they get it right. Its not there yet, but it could be. Hopefully the ideas presented here help. Cheers.

[gwonbush]

If Greater Dispelling worked properly, it actually DOES help assassinate. It would strip deathward, allowing you to assassinate something you might not be able to. Unfortunately, due to CL issues, dispel has never worked well.

[bbqzor]

If Greater Dispelling worked properly. ... Unfortunately, due to CL issues, dispel has never worked well.
That is not the only bug. It was also intended (back in the day when first added to Divine Vengeance) to *only* remove "beneficial" effects, from the mobs point of view. In other words, it would only remove something like deathward or blur or trueseeing, and never remove something like curse or a dot or what have you.

Unfortunately that is not the case. One simply has to load up Dispelling Shot out of AA to see this in action (unlike the spells, that enhancement doesnt suffer CL scaling issues so you can see dispelling actually working). It also specifically mentions "beneficial effects" but strips anything, including non-spell effects like Inferno stacks from inferno shot.

Point being, even if they fixed the CL (which they havent in years, that effect went in around oct '11 going on 4 years old) they would still have to go re-work dispel code to actually only pick beneficial (for the mobs) effects. Its a two layer bug, and a complicated one. Like for example, if they made dispel hit only "good" stuff, then what about using dispel on yourself to get rid of something? Theres no way to make that work without adding two versions of the spell, and things just get increasingly complicated from there.

Yes, in an ideal world they would go do this. But since its probably a lot more work than its worth, the other solution is to just stop putting the broken mod on items over and over again. Sanctified Gauges, heres looking at you =/.


it actually DOES help assassinate. It would strip deathward, allowing you to assassinate something you might not be able to

This would be correct given the above fixes. However, I also wanted to point out that if youre sneaking to assassinate, its relatively simple to get to mobs before they cast this in the first place, rendering it a moot point.

As such, given the current state of affairs, Id rather see the mod pulled for something more applicable. Rogues put out a LOT of debuffs now. Bleed, save reductions, assassins mark, assassins trick, poison, etc. For an assassin trying to assassinate, its more likely youd want to benefit from those without fail, than hope for the slim chance of some perfect storm whereby you happen to knowingly try to assassinate a mob with deathward hoping this proc pulls it before the assassinate check lands. Thats just, like, really far out there for the number of times its going to cause a problem the other 99.9% of the time.

Again, if they actually "for reals" fixed the whole dispel scenario, then possibly maybe yes. But even then, I should think a less edge-case effect might be better, given that you can combat deathward by attacking from surprise. And without it, well, no contest. Id rather have improved destruction to aid in landing assassinate (both the attack roll and the effect) than some super slim chance of fighting one random dw mob some random time in my adventures (as one example).

Others may feel different, and in any event its good to get attention for all bugs. But I feel strongly that this item should focus on what its purposefully intended to do, which is provide a situationally valid tool for DC issues.

[draven1]

If Greater Dispelling worked properly, it actually DOES help assassinate. It would strip deathward, allowing you to assassinate something you might not be able to. Unfortunately, due to CL issues, dispel has never worked well.

If you hit a mob to remove deathward, you will surely lose assassination chance. Because you will get aggro or that mob will be dead pretty quick.

I think deathward bypass ability is proper for this epic dagger. True assassin's kiss is so charming, so, you can't block it by magic :D

[gwonbush]

If you hit a mob to remove deathward, you will surely lose assassination chance. Because you will get aggro or that mob will be dead pretty quick.

I think deathward bypass ability is proper for this epic dagger. True assassin's kiss is so charming, so, you can't block it by magic :D

Well, that's what the Improved Deception is for! Making the mob vulnerable to sneak attacks despite you having aggro means they are also susceptible to being assassinated.

That is, provided that they don't swing in your general direction as you jump into sneak. And you rolled a 20 to shed the deathward. And you procced improved deception. And of course, assuming that Greater Dispelling does anything against CL 70 Deathwards...

[redoubt]

Apparently I'm bored, but why not make the weapons unique and powerful? You want a weapon for assassins with a cool name like "Assassin's Kiss"? How about something like this:

Assassinate +6

Greater Deception

Greater Paralyzing

Characters of Good alignment take a negative level for holding this weapon. Chaotic aligned characters have a 5% chance to trigger "head over heals" OR "I hate you today!"

Head over Heals. The weapon gains a vampirism effect giving 1d4 health back to the wielder any time damage is done (first number damage.) Lasts for 10 seconds.
I hate you today. The weapon doesn't like the way you look today and hates you for it. You stupid ugly troll! It inflicts 1d4 bane damage to you on any attack that does damage. (Lasts for 10 seconds.)
And both can also trigger at the same time. We are talking about chaotic here.


Assassin's Kiss. Activated attack. +5W melee attack. Cooldown 6 seconds.

The kiss from this blade places a spell on the victim enthralling them and leaving them dying for more. (On a critical hit, the victim is enthralled. Assassinate DC vs will to save. Breaks if attacked again. This blades' kiss steals its victim's heart and applies a 10% max hp bleed every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. If the enthrallment is broken, the bleed damage is halved. If the victim is not attacked, the enthrallment will terminate at 10 seconds (same timer as the bleed.) This does not count as a helpless state as the monster will defend itself if attacked, but will remain motionless if not attacked further (offering its blood and heart up to the master of the Assassin's Kiss.)

The Assassin' Kiss is a vicious lover. If the blade misses its intended target, the blade will sate itself and the wielder of the blade suffers 5W in bleed damage every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. Fort save vs Assassinate DC negates all damage except the initial proc.

/break

I imagine it being used something like this...

Rogue sneaks into a room with three cultists. The double assassinate drops two of the cult members to the floor in a pile. The third looks up in shock at the assassin before them. The assassin stares into the cult members frightened eyes and raises a single finger before her lips. "Shhh... don't be afraid..." she whispers. Then with lighting speed she grabs her victim into an embrace, the Assassin's Kiss. There's nothing between them and the world around them becomes still. The assassin backs away, revealing a wicked dagger in her hand. The cultist, enthralled by the assassin clutches his chest and then offers his blood to his new master. Blowing him a kiss, the assassin sneaks back into the shadows leaving him to die, offering her the blood from his own heart.

Now of course, its not enough damage to actually kill in just one shot, but it could be on heck of a finishing move on a mob below half. I'm sure it won't happen, but it amused me to dream it up. Hope you enjoyed it.

[bbqzor]

why not make the weapons unique and powerful?

From what the devs have said this (toee) isnt the design space for new unique/powerful stuff. The intention is that this fit in alongside existing items, working with them rather than eclipsing them. In other words, you should want toee loot alongside existing loot, to do different stuff in different situations.

This item, specifically, had a design purpose which it is not currently fulfilling. The fix easiest for the devs to code, and easiest to fit alongside existing items, is to change the mods there to other current mods to meet the design goals in the existing design space.

I appreciate creative ideas, but raising the bar in item power level and/or writing new effects is likely beyond the scope of fixing this item or toee loot in general. Simply put, the reason why not is they dont have the manhours to do it, and if they did they would do it in a different area of the game (epic shavarath, epic greensteel, intelligent weapons at lv30, etc) where new/powerful things are intended to occur, and all of which are intended to be out in the coming months.

This is why Ive stuck to existing effects which are quite helpful for rogues, yet strangely absent from rogue loot. Other ideas are welcome, but I think the best chance to effect change and make this item worthwhile, rather than reviled, lies along that avenue. Cheers.

[mudfud]

These two posts pretty much some it all up. I could get more, but I think you get the point.


Proposals written in text on Lamannia are very far from any change players should consider "being told will be in the update". If you want to know what's coming in an update, paying a lot of attention to Lamannia is a good way to become confused (or worse), because things change.

Part of the point of discussion on Lamannia of things before we implement changes is to save us time to not implement them if we find they shouldn't be implemented, or to do things another way. Amongst myriad other considerations, getting a hefty speed boost by changing how crossbow animations work was not planned for early on. We spent a lot of extra time doing that change, once we heard feedback and decided it was worth the large amount of time to fix it. That's merely a single example which is not intended to explain all possibilities and options taken or not, because there's always a lot of considerations.

We'll be happy to keep discussing possibilities on Lamannia in the future, just as in the past.


All Lamannia builds are highly subject to change. Players should not get overly attached to anything we are testing there.

Edit: As an aside, we were sort of worried about this type of response when we revamped the crossbow animations and realized upon seeing the DPS increase that we would have to go back and rebalance Mechanic changes because of it. We tried to warn the players about it but we were worried about this very thing.

Sev~

[kmoustakas]

I disagree with you on it being a failure.

For base dps, it's the highest dagger in the game because of 5w and x3 critical. It has the highest assasinate dc available at +6 which could potentially free you another slot. It has improved deception which stacks with regular deception from dragon masque and weapon deception from random generated daggers.

I will agree that incorporeal bane is there for flavor purposes (mirage scimitar comes to mind). Greater dispelling is also for flavor because I doubt the way dispelling works it will dispel anything.

Does it come close to mortal fear? No. But I am pretty sure I will get a lot more milage out of a level 26 bta random drop than the btc level 28 mortal fear assasin's dagger I will craft in about 25 runs more. Calling it a total failure is uneducated at best.

[janave]

Overly dramatic really, so it has some flavor considerations for the effects - good. Not everything has to be about power and efficiency, tons of that stuff in the game already.

My only suggestion would be for the devs is to have less effects on the items that supposed to be interesting and flavor, but those effects should be potent. Jibbers Blase, The Torc, Royal Mask, Abbot Quivers come to mind very quickly, those items are highly sought for their utility.

I too think this dagger is already justified for being x3 crit, assy DC+6, with a nice base damage.

[lethargos]

Id use it. easyish to get apparently. The crit bonus is the real kicker here. This could free up to 2 slots too.
It is definately not ****.

[Coyopa]

I want one! That'd work great with any number of my other weapons and it would probably be one of my two main weapons. I can't see the Greater Dispelling as removing any debuffs put on by the assassin, since those aren't magic (I don't think - maybe I'm just not knowledgable). Anyway, now that I know this thing exists, I'm going to work on getting it! Thanks!

[FAQ]

I am not even sure what to say. You guys said numerous places that Assassin DC would be partially accounted for by the addition of new items. You guys also said on lama that this dagger would be an anti-ghost assassin dagger, and many posters pointed out how completely terrible that was, being that you cant assassinate ghosts. And then you said some changes would happen. And what did you change?

http://ddowiki.com/images/Epic_Assassin%27s_Kiss.png

From lama, Ghost Touch was dropped, and Improved Deception was added. Thats it. What about the rest of it.

You still cannot apply assassinate to undead, which means it and incorporeal bane are basically exclusive mods. You cant even apply sneak attack to incorporeal without using Assassins Trick, meaning that only if the ability is available can you even use the deception portion against them. Same with having this on an item with an extra multiplier, undead resist that. Why is this mod here? Why not anything more useful? Virtually any other kind of bane would be better, or another effect entirely.

And Greater Dispelling (unless stealth fixed somehow, which I all kinds of doubt) will strip negative effects you apply to the mob off it. And thats if it even works, which it probably wont because the Caster Level of the effect is (or was, if somehow fixed) bugged to be way below level. This means it has a choice between doing nothing, or potentially removes Assassins Trick, rendering the combo above even more sketchy. Theres just no reason to put this here, rogues apply a ton of debuffs now and all this does is offer the potential to remove them. Anything would be better here, and depending on the current bug status of the effects caster level and targeting, potentially even nothing.

Look it doesnt even have to be damage mods here, though obviously those are good. What about Sundering? That applies a -1 Fort Penalty (stacks to 5 over 15s) as a weapon mutation, meaning any mob youve already hit becomes easier to assassinate. It basically never shows up on rogue gear, and it really ought to. And it applies a lot slower and stacks to less than just w/p so its hardly any significant power change. Or Improved Destruction (since its high level epic, maybe reg for heroic), that helps lower fort without resorting to just another armor piercing item. And you know what, both potentially help to-hit, which can be nice for rogues in some situations.

Obviously theres other loot threads but I wanted to single this out. Its literally the only item that got a response in the whole lama time. This one item. And it still wound up lacking, during the Rogue Pass no less, after specifically being promised as part of the DC issue solution. If any one named item ought to have come through looking like a gem, this shouldve been it (obviously I think the elemental crafting shouldve been nice too but thats another topic).

I sincerely hope this can be adjusted, and retroactively adjusted for the ones that dropped. Note that Im not asking this to outperform Thunderforged T3. Nor should it wholly eliminate the need for a T2 (hence why not just another armor piercing etc). But it needs to hold up to T1 and offer some good options compared to T2. While x3 looks nice, the other mods make no sense. And they should. There is ample room to make this thing a good "assassins" weapon without just adding "moar dips". I kind of cant believe it got this far without such attention, but maybe this feedback can change that. Hopefully thank you, because as it stands this weapon cuts deep (unless youre a wiz/rog in wraith form, then it doesnt cut you but you take bane damage instead...).

OP, if I could I would give you a +1 because that was very well written: it was logical, it made solid points and it touched upon some key issues not only about the dagger but about lacking game mechanics that would impact it.

And I totally agree with your points. Also, until they fix Greater dispelling (that'll be the day), they really should refrain from putting it on more loot.

[Paleus]

Overly dramatic really, so it has some flavor considerations for the effects - good. Not everything has to be about power and efficiency, tons of that stuff in the game already.

My only suggestion would be for the devs is to have less effects on the items that supposed to be interesting and flavor, but those effects should be potent. Jibbers Blase, The Torc, Royal Mask, Abbot Quivers come to mind very quickly, those items are highly sought for their utility.

I too think this dagger is already justified for being x3 crit, assy DC+6, with a nice base damage.

I had pretty much the same thought. I first look at the base damage, crit range and crit damage on a weapon before looking at the other effects. Those alone made the weapon reasonable. The +6 dc and improved deception was very nice. But the other effects were admittedly head-scratchers. For the person who doesn't have the luxury of having all of the best items from past updates (these people do exist outside the forums) then this type of dagger is useful, especially if getting it doesn't require grinding out a raid for ingredients, and to boot its BTA and not BTC.

All in all, the proper statement on this is that "it could be better, but its still good." Sadly, a lot of people seem to think overly dramatic statements about something being a "total failure" are the only way to provide feedback. And that all things must be compared to the best possible combination of build/gear when determining usefulness. When in reality, I think it makes one's opinion less likely to be listened as opposed to a more measured response. Saying that this dagger has some effects that sub-optimal, or even nonsense, and therefore could be changed to make it better may sound less important, but they'd probably be more accurate and therefore more likely to be influential (though honestly neither response would likely result in a change).

[Coyopa]

I had pretty much the same thought. I first look at the base damage, crit range and crit damage on a weapon before looking at the other effects. Those alone made the weapon reasonable. The +6 dc and improved deception was very nice. But the other effects were admittedly head-scratchers. For the person who doesn't have the luxury of having all of the best items from past updates (these people do exist outside the forums) then this type of dagger is useful, especially if getting it doesn't require grinding out a raid for ingredients, and to boot its BTA and not BTC.

All in all, the proper statement on this is that "it could be better, but its still good." Sadly, a lot of people seem to think overly dramatic statements about something being a "total failure" are the only way to provide feedback. And that all things must be compared to the best possible combination of build/gear when determining usefulness. When in reality, I think it makes one's opinion less likely to be listened as opposed to a more measured response. Saying that this dagger has some effects that sub-optimal, or even nonsense, and therefore could be changed to make it better may sound less important, but they'd probably be more accurate and therefore more likely to be influential (though honestly neither response would likely result in a change).

+1. I actually kind of like this weapon for the flavor choices they made with it. I'll be excited to get it! (I haven't made any thunder-forged stuff - weapons or armor - and I'm very unlikely to do so. I just don't have the time available that is required for that kind of grind anymore.)

[FAQ]

I had pretty much the same thought. I first look at the base damage, crit range and crit damage on a weapon before looking at the other effects. Those alone made the weapon reasonable. The +6 dc and improved deception was very nice. But the other effects were admittedly head-scratchers. For the person who doesn't have the luxury of having all of the best items from past updates (these people do exist outside the forums) then this type of dagger is useful, especially if getting it doesn't require grinding out a raid for ingredients, and to boot its BTA and not BTC.

All in all, the proper statement on this is that "it could be better, but its still good." Sadly, a lot of people seem to think overly dramatic statements about something being a "total failure" are the only way to provide feedback. And that all things must be compared to the best possible combination of build/gear when determining usefulness. When in reality, I think it makes one's opinion less likely to be listened as opposed to a more measured response. Saying that this dagger has some effects that sub-optimal, or even nonsense, and therefore could be changed to make it better may sound less important, but they'd probably be more accurate and therefore more likely to be influential (though honestly neither response would likely result in a change).

Well, I didn't think the OP was overly dramatic. And he did make good points about the effects. It doesn't have to be the best in slot gear as the OP stated, but thematically what do assassins have to do with Incorporeal creatures? They usually can't sneak attack them and they certainly can't assassinate them. The weapon is called Assassin's Kiss. It has +6 DC to assassinate. I would assume it is aimed toward assassins. So Incorporeal bane does not fit with the weapon and Greater dispel in its current state also does not fit with it

[Saekee]

consider some of the best weapons in the game--TF and the CITW relic weapons. Those drop in raids. This is not a raid.

The EMG, while well designed for its intended purpose, has a terrible drop rate for its ingredients.

I believe that this is the reason why the weapon is not ideal. Maybe down the road some better weapons might appear but they will undoubtedly only be attainable in raids.

Again, I repeat my statement that while it is not ideal, its critical multiplier and improved deception alone will make it worthwhile. The other effects are gravy. It will fill a niche area like the drow weapon masters and other such non-raid items.

[FestusHood]

Well, I didn't think the OP was overly dramatic. And he did make good points about the effects. It doesn't have to be the best in slot gear as the OP stated, but thematically what do assassins have to do with Incorporeal creatures? They usually can't sneak attack them and they certainly can't assassinate them. The weapon is called Assassin's Kiss. It has +6 DC to assassinate. I would assume it is aimed toward assassins. So Incorporeal bane does not fit with the weapon and Greater dispel in its current state also does not fit with it

Just because an assassin can't assassinate incorporeal creatures doesn't mean they will never have to fight them. Now i'm not saying that the effect adds greatly to the desirability of the dagger, but it's pretty much gratuitous anyway. That and greater dispelling could be removed completely from the dagger with no replacement and it would still look like a pretty good dagger.

There are named weapon in the game that do both lawful and chaotic damage at the same time. No way both those damage types can ever proc against any given mob. I suppose it's meant to be a utility piece so that you don't have to keep swapping weapons constantly.

[bbqzor]

I disagree with you on it being a failure.
I welcome alternate viewpoints. Heres some counterpoints.


For base dps, it's the highest dagger in the game because of 5w and x3 critical.
I suppose this depends largely how you build your rogue. With TF at 5W even on the lv24 base item, its not unique in that aspect. Yes, it has 1 extra mult. Does that one extra crit boost totally eclipse the value of all other TF mods? Likely not, but I suppose some assassin out there will be in that boat. Even not considering T3 (which these are dev-stated to not compete with) I would still say probably only if the mob is fire immune, as a lot of TF damage tends to be tied up in fire. This is something hard to make a claim for as build variance could shift it back and forth, regarding things like how much seeker or raw +dmg, etc.

But that also means the base profile is exactly on target. It works alongside (non-T3) TF nicely, situationally better but not always. That is the exact design goal. Rather than excuse the rest of the weapon, this points to it being right where it should be. That is why this aspect is not commented on in the OP, as it would seem to be correct.


It has the highest assasinate dc available at +6 which could potentially free you another slot.
True, but in a way also moot. That was the dev-stated explicit point of this item, which was to address DC issues. There wasnt any choice about this being there or not, for weeks its been a known addition taken into account during the rogue enhancement balance. Whatever else was going to be on it, this would be. Thus, I give no credence to the item based on that fact alone.

Nor do I consider it really "freeing a slot" up. Its not a dagger youd want to use 24/7... indeed that too is a specific mark of its intended design. No "EE-rogue" should be without a 4dc swap for times they need to use another weapon. And I say "EE-rogue" because thats really the only situation that 2 more dc is necessary. On EH or less, youre likely better off using something else, and thats by design. Otherwise it would invalidate those other drops. Again, its meant to work alongside loot, and so it does in this case. And again, thats why this was not mentioned in OP.


It has improved deception which stacks with regular deception ... from random generated daggers.

It doesnt "stack" with random daggers, as you cant equip both in the same hand. Its true if you wield two weapons they could both proc it, but thats true of any proc. Thats not a design perk of this item.

As for it having deception, yes that is generally helpful. It can also be harmful when working with a tank and causing the mob to erratically flip. Its not a universally helpful mod, though it is good for rogues who may not be in such a party. As its a situationally good mod, it fits the dagger, and thus was not decried in OP.


I will agree that incorporeal bane is there for flavor purposes (mirage scimitar comes to mind).

Citing one terrible item as reason to allow another is not strong evidence. Anytime you would need incorporeal bane, you are better off using another weapon. That does not fit this utility item at all. It will, effectively, never come into effect... anytime it would you should be putting this in your backpack instead. Its just bad design.


Greater dispelling is also for flavor because I doubt the way dispelling works it will dispel anything.

Details in a previous post; without a large fix to dispelling this is likely a detriment and should not be there. Flavor is not a reason to put poorly implemented mods on items.


Does it come close to mortal fear? No.
Never claimed that it did or should. I did claim several places it does not and shouldnt. Glad you agree.


But I am pretty sure I will get a lot more milage out of a level 26 bta random drop than the btc level 28 mortal fear assasin's dagger I will craft in about 25 runs more.
If you play slowly enough that youd be using this for a large period of time, then by virtue of only having access to one item you are correct. But that doesnt make it any better as an item... simply possessing it doesnt make it any better in abstract.


Calling it a total failure is uneducated at best.
I think calling my opinion uneducated is rather invalid when you have posted nothing to support that claim. You stated it has great base damage, but its pretty comparable to the other lv26 +/- option. You stated it has uses for assassinating, which was the part of the item set in place design-wise. You stated it has one decent mod and two poor mods, which was in the OP. You stated it doesnt pass T3 TF, which was stated multiple times already.

So really what was your evidence that its failure was far fetched? That because it takes you a long time to farm T3, that means youll use this for more play-hours, so its better. Thats a completely subjective assessment. I really dont feel like the item should be judged by the metric of one persons playtime. Furthermore, I dont think even judging it against T3 at all is valid, as the devs said it shouldnt be better than them. So no matter how much longer T3 takes to get, its better, so that time investment is to go up from here.


so it has some flavor considerations for the effects - good. Not everything has to be about power and efficiency
If they added anything at all positive I might agree. But they dont. How does "incorporeal bane" add anything to this? At best its an excuse to be lazy about swapping weapons, which is a disservice to yourself and your party. "Flavor" isnt a reason for it to be poorly done. It could have something like Humanoid Bane, that would be flavorful. 2d6 isnt much of a difference in power so it would definitely be only flavor, but it would also *make sense*. It would be *relevant*. Its something Assassins Kiss might plausibly have and make use of. Just writing off pointless effects under the guise of flavor is simply accepting poor design.


I can't see the Greater Dispelling as removing any debuffs put on by the assassin, since those aren't magic (I don't think - maybe I'm just not knowledgable)
This was detailed in a previous post. It has nothing to do with it being "magic"; unless this was stealth fixed it can eat anything (if it works at all, which it likely wont).

[bbqzor]

But the other effects were admittedly head-scratchers. For the person who doesn't have the luxury of having all of the best items from past updates (these people do exist outside the forums) then this type of dagger is useful, especially if getting it doesn't require grinding out a raid for ingredients, and to boot its BTA and not BTC.
This item doesnt need to compare to the "best" out there, and is specifically not being compared to the best. This was in the OP.

The point about the other mods being head-scratchers is true. And it shouldnt only be useful to casual types that lack other options simply because they lack other options. It should be useful because its useful. Those head-scratchers should be useful, not head-scratchers. That way the guy without access to other choices isnt being forced into using a weapon thats only half useful. Being stuck with "flavor" mods because you cant play a lot is rather punitive to the guy in that position, dont you think?

As for it being BTA and not from raid mats, true. But the only mats needed for T1/T2 (which it compares against) are tradeable. So its quite possible for the little guy to have them without needing to raid. Some people prefer items they can go get themselves though and I understand that.


the proper statement on this is that "it could be better, but its still good." Sadly, a lot of people seem to think overly dramatic statements about something being a "total failure" are the only way to provide feedback. And that all things must be compared to the best possible combination of build/gear when determining usefulness.
Im happy for other opinions but the way I posted it was proper for me. Its not being overly dramatic to expect something the enhancements were balanced around assuming people would get and use to meet at least a moderate standard. Let me repeat that. The rogue enhancements were specifically tuned to require needing this item to hit the high DC marks, on purpose. It should not be a "flavor item" given that design space.

As for comparing it to the best possible combination.... where did I do that. I specifically said NOT to compare it to the best combo because it would lose. I am not sure where you got that idea. Perhaps you didnt read anything except the title.


I actually kind of like this weapon for the flavor choices they made with it. I'll be excited to get it! (I haven't made any thunder-forged stuff - weapons or armor - and I'm very unlikely to do so. I just don't have the time available that is required for that kind of grind anymore.)
I want to be clear on two points: One, the choices you like it for are not the flavor choices. If you are getting this to get an Incorporeal Bane item or a Dispelling item, that is probably not the best idea. Those are the aspects that ought to be changed since they have essentially no relevance to the item or its use. One can only assume that it would be more appealing with better mods in place of those two.

Two, the comparable TF stuff can be bought or traded for. Even if you choose to use this dagger, I would recommend seeking out the parts for a TF in your other hand. They do not need to be "maxed out" to be useful and can be a big boost to your dps. Good luck with your weapons, cheers.


Well, I didn't think the OP was overly dramatic. And he did make good points about the effects. It doesn't have to be the best in slot gear as the OP stated, but thematically what do assassins have to do with Incorporeal creatures? They usually can't sneak attack them and they certainly can't assassinate them. The weapon is called Assassin's Kiss. It has +6 DC to assassinate. I would assume it is aimed toward assassins. So Incorporeal bane does not fit with the weapon and Greater dispel in its current state also does not fit with it

Thanks for taking the time to read and digest the OP, cheers.


consider some of the best weapons in the game--TF and the CITW relic weapons. Those drop in raids. This is not a raid.

The only raid-only component of TF is for T3, which is beyond the scope of comparison to this item (both by in-game stats and by dev intent). That a lv26 item is better than a lv23 raid item is again intentional. I dont really see how you feel this statement holds any water. I can go to the AH and buy a T0/1/2 TF weapon to compare this with.


I believe that this is the reason why the weapon is not ideal. ... Again, I repeat my statement that while it is not ideal, its critical multiplier and improved deception alone will make it worthwhile
The item has one target audience, and one design purpose vis a vis rogue enhancements. Why should anything less than ideal (in a design sense, not a power level sense, Ive already pointed out this isnt about raw power) be acceptable? It only has to appeal to rogues, and assassin rogues at that, when trying to assassinate.

Do you not want them to go make the ill conceived mods into something that actually has merit? If so, why not? Why accept an item which hits on some points and misses on others. Items should get the same level of attention as other things like enhancements. I didnt spend any playtime farming enhancements, but that had 50 pages of feedback. This item takes effort to go get. It takes time. Then it has to be used for some period of time.

Since this is the part of the game people are actually playing to earn, shouldnt it also be reviewed to a good standard?


. The other effects are gravy.

Theyre not gravy. Gravy is something you add to a dish to make it better, though not integral to the dish. These dont make it better, they dont really do much of anything. Depending on how bad your luck is (and the exact bug status) it might even make it worse.

Again do not excuse the poor choices simply because you see some redeeming quality. It should be improved to be logical for its function, so that one could say the other effects (minor though they may be) actually support the items purpose.


Just because an assassin can't assassinate incorporeal creatures doesn't mean they will never have to fight them.
And when you do, you would use a weapon designed for that. This isnt the harbor. By lv26-28, players should have the right tool for the job. Adding effects totally unrelated to the items purpose to the item is flat out bad design.


Now i'm not saying that the effect adds greatly to the desirability of the dagger, but it's pretty much gratuitous anyway.
I know you are not, I do not mean to imply that. But you are right that its "gratuitous" in level of usefulness and as a result its getting a pass by a lot of people.

Why? This item is not some random item in the game that is a bit of a hit/miss item. Its here, solely to help balance assassinate dc. Thats why they added it. Why then, does that item get some garbage stuff tacked onto it and then everyone gives it a pass because it has a good mod too. Why does everyone accept that this item has pointless stuff on it? Several of the other named items have abilities that all work together. Why not this one?

Enhancements were balanced around this item existing. It ought to at least work together, yes? I only think thats fair. If the enhancements intentionally force you into using the item in some circumstances, it makes sense that the item actually work with those circumstances. I mean otherwise whats the point, right?

[kmoustakas]

Ughm, I'm confused here. Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by saying 'total failure'. Perhaps you are just hyperbolic to garner views and comments. Braisingstar is "a total failure" and a 'waste of a raid loot'. An item nobody would ever use unless for telling people 'hey I use that'. What do you mean 'total failure'?

I assume if you are an assasin that you go with either dagger or kukri for the extra critical modifier. If you are not, then for sure a dagger, any dagger isn't for you. Considering how assasinate doubles when using two weapons, I thought it normal for people to use two weapons to assasinate although for certain that is not the only way to play one. TF tier 3 is 4,5w and not 5w unless wiki is wrong and an extra x1 multiplier is tons more than 10-60 fire damage for sure. With 0 weapon damage bonus and 0 seeker it's an extra 10-20 dmg. And if you are running with 0 bonus weapon damage ... It is not better than 35% armor piercing and the extra damage on tier2, agreed. One is a raid weapon however, the other is a non raid bound to account weapon. Raid weapons btc > quest weapons bta as expected. That is to say that 'err... of course thunderforged should be better since it's that much harder to get'. Does not being better than a raid loot make a weapon 'a total failure'? Let us also compare it to the other named dagger, agony. Base damage and critical modifier is a lot better for the kiss even considering the set bonus. Agony has the disintegration proc and it might save you the improved critical feat but I would assume on a dps build you would get overwhelming critical anyway?

You don't like the extra dc because... you'll have to switch weapons because you don't like the rest of the dagger? So an assasin dagger SHOULDN'T have assasinate bonus dc on it? It also SHOULDN'T have deception because it messes with the tanks ability to hold aggro? So you mean to tell me you don't use deception abilities at all on your assasin so that you wouldn't mess with a tank's aggro?

Lastly, my comparison to mirage was a flavor comparison, not power comparison. Ghostly blades and all that. I consider flavor an important part of an item but obviously you don't care about flavor at all so we shall ignore that.

[Wipey]

Prison Break, Master Riposte, Elemental Fury - those are total failures.
This looks like best in slot off hand for assassin to me. To pair with TF tier 2 main hand.
Sure, 20 EH+ Deathwyrms for neck, another 80 or even more for 2 x TF is "better". But that's almost insane amount of time.
People are saying stuff like "just make 2x Tier 3 TF" like it's nothing.

This weapon fits the "theme" here perfectly imo. I bet it's huge improvement for 95 % of people that decide to play an assassin.
Please don't kill me.

[SableShadow]

Why not yank the greater bane and dispelling, put in, oh, poison blast (theme and a little dps), insightful backstabbing +5, and a utility feature (tendon slice, keen, and/or on-hit improved invisibility ... other)?

Makes it quite a bit more thematic, doesn't equal deeps on t2, yadda yadda.

[bbqzor]

TF tier 3 is 4,5w and not 5w unless wiki is wrong
Fair point, regarding tier 2. I am used to seeing 5W+ due to ship buff rounding. As stated many times T3 is beyond the scope of comparison, but T2 is also 4.5. Good catch. I dont think this changes the math much, but it is worth pointing out. Cheers.


and an extra x1 multiplier is tons more than 10-60 fire damage for sure
Depends on your rogue. Over 20 hits, the fire damage is 200d6. Over 20 hits, the extra crit multiplier is 6 "base values" of damage (whatever your base is plus seeker etc). So is one of those "base values" > 33.3d6 or ~116 damage (remember that doesnt include sneak)? The answer wont be true for everyone. Again, do not forget: this isnt a weapon intended to compete against top level 28 scenarios. In those cases, not everyone is going to be passing that comparison. And likewise against fire immune (but crit-able mobs), TF would lose. I think that duality of changing weapons for the scenario is intended... its not "extra x1 wins by a landslide" unless you build very, very heavily into base/crit effects on your assassin. I am sure some people do that, but I think most assassins probably have other mods they prioritize (perhaps most especially when trying to land assassinates).


It is not better than 35% armor piercing and the extra damage on tier2, agreed. One is a raid weapon however, the other is a non raid bound to account weapon
Heres the problem. One, you state T2 is superior when I think the design goal was that youd want to swap between this item and a T2 depending on the situation. Two, is it fair to call a weapon you can buy on the AH a "raid weapon".

For One, that means they need to go ahead and ravamp this item to not have trash mods on it. For Two, I guess opinions vary. I feel that since you can buy the components without ever completing a single raid, or even flagging for the raids, they are not raid weapons (at those tiers). I can roll a free account, earn some cash, buy mats, buy a guest pass to step in to craft, and get a T2 TF weapon. That means, to my definition, that its not a "raid" item since you dont have to raid to get it. While its quite possible this new dagger is simpler to acquire (or more practical at least since toee is there 24/7 to go farm while finding mats to buy is subject to supply/demand), that only puts more emphasis on it being a harmonious item instead of at odds with itself.


You don't like the extra dc
Where did I ever say I dont like the DC? I think you are making that up. I said thats the defining feature of the item, so the rest of the item should be built around that concept to harmonize with it rather than just be random add ons.


It also SHOULDN'T have deception
Again, where did I say that? I am not sure you are reading, vs just skimming and getting some different idea. I said its something which has situational relevance, which makes it a good fit for an item which should be good situationally. Thats a support of the effect being there, not a sleight against it.


I consider flavor an important part of an item but obviously you don't care about flavor at all so we shall ignore that.
Thats not fair, I think this whole post is, in a sense, about flavor. The item should taste good for assassinating stuff. Half the item right now is wholly unrelated to that, to the point where it functionally may as well not be there. Thats not being flavorful, its going against the grain. And that tastes bad to me.

Seeing as I expressly said in the first post "this isnt about raw damage" and pointed out that additional utility is the name of the game, I am not sure why you think this isnt about flavor. Its just about finding two flavors that taste great together, instead of one thats alright and then because that one is alright throwing a pile of unrelated spice on top like some kind of rotten cherry. No rotten cherries please, more flavor with a point to it.

To conclude:

I'm confused here. Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by saying 'total failure'. ... What do you mean 'total failure'?
I mean that from a design standpoint, this item was not fully thought out and presented live in a way which makes sense. The design process failed. It had a specific purpose, there are several dev references to it in the assassin enhancement threads and one on lama. This thing was in the works, at least conceptually, for months. They planned on it being here and fulfilling a need. Then when they delivered it, it was sub par. That some parts of it work does not excuse the parts that dont. That is like saying a car has tires so it doesnt matter if the engine is bad. I feel like I have stated in the OP, and elsewhere through the thread, but here it is again. I hope that clears up your confusion.


Please don't kill me.
Lol, no worries =). Just because of a stern desire to see this design faux pas fixed doesnt mean you should worry. Its cool.


Prison Break, Master Riposte, Elemental Fury - those are total failures.
True, but they didnt have the balance of an enhancement tree weighing on them. If Prison break is bad (and oh man is it ever) that didnt cause trouble for an entire class centered on a T5 enhancement. This dagger has that riding on it, by dev intention. As a result, it doesnt have room for any benefits of doubt that might allow those other items to exist. If this item were held to that (non-existent?) standard the entire rogue/assassin class would suffer. Thus, it gets its own thread to try and avoid a Prison-Break-fate.


This looks like best in slot off hand for assassin to me. To pair with TF tier 2 main hand.
Maybe, maybe not. It really depends on your specific build and what mob you are fighting. But thats beside the point.

Its not about making sure its best in slot. Ive said this time and again. Its about making sure the item is true to itself and offers the utility the game is balanced around assuming it provides. Because there are underlying development assumptions based on the idea that this thing holds up, it better well hold up. I think changing some of those mods would allow it to actually do that. Rather than sometimes be more dps or something.


People are saying stuff like "just make 2x Tier 3 TF" like it's nothing.
In other threads, but not this one. Dont let thread fatigue get to you. This is NOT about T3 TF. How many times I have had to type this. Not that you are saying that (I note your mention of T2 pair earlier), only that I, too, understand T3 has become "assumed" without consideration for how impractical that can be for many people. And comparing anything to that is, at this point, futile.


I bet it's huge improvement for 95 % of people that decide to play an assassin.
I hope not, but maybe many people havent invested in their rogues much prior to the pass.

At any rate, I bet things like Greater Dispelling are an improvement for 0% of people that decide to use this. Which is kind of the point... it would be preferrable that an item designed to be used in situations a rogue is wanting/attempting to assassinate have mods that are good for that? Not necessarily a "power/dps" increase, but a purpose-driven, situation dependent mods? I should think so.


Why not yank the greater bane and dispelling, put in, oh, poison blast (theme and a little dps), insightful backstabbing +5, and a utility feature (tendon slice, keen, and/or on-hit improved invisibility ... other)? Makes it quite a bit more thematic, doesn't equal deeps on t2, yadda yadda.

This was the avenue of thought presented in the OP. I suggested Sundering (for fort save debuff) and Improved Destruction (for fort bypass), both of which can peripherally affect to-hit as well.

Adding sneak attack and tendon slice would be another decent pair. Both affect sneak attacks (tendon slice through hamstring feat, should one take that), thats related enough to assassinate. Making tendon slice and encouraging hamstring to provide mobility tools to allow a rogue to re-hide and sneak away in the event it fails is interesting. Not that this will suddenly find people taking Hamstring, but it would be nice to see it get a nod as a possible rogue tool without promoting raw power directly. It also focuses more on stealth than offense, and that might make it better than my suggestions for fitting assassinate itself. I like this suggestion... assassins do not have enough stealth tools, I think much of their redesign focused on dps.

I think Sundering, Improved Destruction, and Tendon Slice are all good rogue/assassin mods which are underrepresented and good candidates for fixing this item without simply throwing damage at it. Any of these in place of Incorporeal Bane and Greater Dispelling would make the item successful from a design standpoint and more playable from a user stand point. I will edit the OP. Cheers.

[Paleus]

Im happy for other opinions but the way I posted it was proper for me. Its not being overly dramatic to expect something the enhancements were balanced around assuming people would get and use to meet at least a moderate standard. Let me repeat that. The rogue enhancements were specifically tuned to require needing this item to hit the high DC marks, on purpose. It should not be a "flavor item" given that design space.

Take off the statement "Total Failure" and honestly thats about it.

If you simply removed, not changed, greater dispelling and greater incoporeal bane, would you still consider the weapon a total failure? Should the min level be lowered? Because even after you take those off you've still got a high W weapon, an extra crit damage with mods for assassinate, deception, boost to melee power, and a purple augment slot. That is all on a non-raid named item that is BTA. The only weapons I'm seeing others bring up as comparable are raid items, and the complaint is those are better. Well raid items should be better. None of this suggests to me that its a total failure. Compare this, for instance, to the Fell Shiv (lvl 26 version) instead of raid gear. How does it stack up?

Now, as to enhancements centered around what people would use, we can return to the incorporeal bane. Granted, you aren't going to assassinate a ghost. But as a rogue you may still come up against them. So, your options are to swtich to a better specialized weapon (assuming you have one) or keep swinging away with your catch-all weapon.

I'll grant that greater dispelling, if still bugged, is a problem. But thats a problem with it being bugged. If, it worked as designed, and only removed beneficial wards from a mob, then that's a pretty nice thing, even if you don't benefit, but say a caster in your party did.

So again, my problem isn't with noting that there are some properties that are sub-standard. Its with the assumption that if any property is sub-standard that we must decry a weapon as a "Total Failure." I don't see that, I see it as potentially useful for players, and wonder what kind of benchmarks people must be comparing it to when they call it a total failure. Because it suggests to me that people might be benchmarking everything to the top 1% of gamers when items are still useful to everyone else.

[bbqzor]

Take off the statement "Total Failure" and honestly thats about it.
No, its a failure. Rather than remove that, perhaps I should have put "Total Design Failure" instead. It failed to be well designed, regardless if it turned out usable or not. That is what I am referring to, the lack of cohesive elements to the design towards its goal. In that, to me, it was indeed a failure. Especially given the assassin enhancement thread discussion and the lama item discussion providing context for what this item was intended to supply to the player.

I admit its possible the title could have been worded better, but strongly believe the intent is clear in the content of my posts throughout the thread. However, for myself, rather than brainstorm possibly better titles Id prefer to discuss the ideas contained within. Ill simply cede that following the life of the thread it is possible a better title could have been chosen in retrospect, but such clarity seemed self-evident to me at the time. But perhaps it is not to everyone else. For any discrepancies there, I would ask that you overlook them and focus on the discussion. A thread about the title of threads is less useful than one about the subject matter it bears. Thanks for hopefully understanding.


If you simply removed, not changed, greater dispelling and greater incoporeal bane, would you still consider the weapon a total failure?
After a fashion, yes. It was intended to provide a meaningful tool to aid assassins in situations where the extra 2 dc is needed. That means it ought to be playable on EE, when playing in a manner consistent with attempting to assassinate mobs. In those situations, a high base damage weapon is secondary to one which ensures you land hits with a good dc that qualify as sneak attacks. The focus on its base profile rather illustrates that while it might be an acceptable dps weapon, the push isnt really on using it as a tool for the job. That is why the suggested modifiers all focus around letting it do that job, rather than simply adding dps.


That is all on a non-raid named item that is BTA. The only weapons I'm seeing others bring up as comparable are raid items
Again as I have stated elsewhere, it is questionable to call a T1 or T2 TF weapon a "raid" weapon being that you can buy/trade for it. Some people solidly put it in the raid camp because the materials are from there, fine I cant tell people how to qualify things. But I will point out that it is easier to get a T1 TF weapon than this weapon. You can get a TF weapon sitting in town, this you have to quest for. I could repeat waterworks and just vendor/ah stuff to get plat to buy TF weapons (not practical mind you, just pointing out the reality).

I realize some people will disagree, which is fine, but excusing this item as poor because it didnt drop in a raid really isnt relevant. The design implications of "mandating" this item exist to fulfill a role are the same whether this item was in a raid or not. I think the fact they put it NOT in a raid, making it easier to obtain, is in fact a strong signal that the intent is for everyone to get it, because the DC balancing hinges upon it. If its "required" gear, it makes sense it lean towards being available rather than rare.


Granted, you aren't going to assassinate a ghost. But as a rogue you may still come up against them. So, your options are to swtich to a better specialized weapon (assuming you have one) or keep swinging away
I think that by level 26 (to 28) its fair to assume people should have the right tools available in this case. Maybe not the best anti-undead weapon in the game or something, but easily a weapon for that. Especially on a rogue, who would be having to specifically single out undead as a problem mob almost from day one of their life. With things like the Mutineers Blade in a similar level band and beyond common, there is little recourse to feel like an anti-ghost weapon would be something rogues might not have. Heck its probably easier to get than any of these other daggers being discussed =p.


I'll grant that greater dispelling, if still bugged, is a problem. But thats a problem with it being bugged. If, it worked as designed, and only removed beneficial wards from a mob, then that's a pretty nice thing
I think that given this item has a specific design role intended, and its one the game (assassinate dc) was balanced around, then adding it in while bugged is pretty poor form. Thats the exact situation where a statement like "we added a solution but the solutions bugged" doesnt really offer any comfort. When you factor in that this came up in U23 with the abbot loot, and will soon have been around for 4 years, it starts to feel like an insult that they keep putting it on stuff. Yes, if it was fixed this thread would look different. But its not. And they should know that. And their balance solutions based in item design should reflect that. They ought to just change this out, because fixing that dispel bug is probably more than they can find time for right now... hence the mention in this thread.


So again, my problem isn't with noting that there are some properties that are sub-standard. Its with the assumption that if any property is sub-standard that we must decry a weapon as a "Total Failure."
I am not decrying the weapon. I am decrying the design process which lead to this weapon. They had a process to implement a balance fix and it resulted in this. I say that result means the process failed. The result could, and should, be more fitting and more applicable than it currently is. This thread is an attempt to highlight that the design process fell short, and offer some thoughtful context to illustrate possible solutions. That they can read this thread, follow the thinking, and perhaps use some of the alternatives suggested to better reach their goal is the idea.

Maybe this way of phrasing will do a better job of things. Cheers.

[Coyopa]

...perhaps I should have put "Total Design Failure" instead. It failed to be well designed, regardless if it turned out usable or not. That is what I am referring to, the lack of cohesive elements to the design towards its goal....

This is a fair criticism. I still like the weapon. :)

[IronClan]

I just... sorry guys I know you're trying to get this buffed but it's the best dagger in the game for bosses and has +6 assassinate on it so worst case 100% of assassins in the game will want this in their off hand when fighting trash mobs with mortal fear in the main hand.

19-20X3? and .5[W] more than TF T3 weapon and it's not even a raid item? 100% of all assassins in the game will want this... and it's not raid loot... I mentioned it's not raid loot right?

Knife specialization makes this 18-20X4 after IC it's

15-20X4

You've got a light pick with a scimitar crit range in either both hands (when fighting a boss) or off hand... and all you can think of is the flavor affix which is clearly useful for undead which rogues have traditionally not done as well against? geez Forum DDO... *walks away shaking head*

Man I hope the Pick is this cool...

[bbqzor]

Iit's the best dagger in the game for bosses
Considering several people have already pointed out and agreed that this is not the case, thats quite the claim. Some sort of evidence to support it would be nice.


worst case 100% of assassins in the game will want this

it's not even a raid item? 100% of all assassins in the game will want this
Firstly, again, T0-2 TF weapons are not "raid items" by every definition either. As mentioned in this thread, it being raid or not raid is secondary to the design purpose it (was intended to) fill by being a DC balancing item. Its like you completely avoided any of the discussion in this thread. If you had read it, you would realize that just saying that twice doesnt make it true, those points have already been discussed.

Secondly, claiming 100% of people will do something in a thread whos very existence is contrary to that claim is pure hyperbole. Please refrain from simply stating extreme numerical figures which you cannot possible hope to back up as if they were some sort of fact, and focus on providing real support for your statements. Or, better yet, focus on the topic of the thread which is why this item was not *designed* well, and could have its *design* improved by shifting its effects a little.


it's 15-20X4
Yes, which is 1 better than the 15-20 x3 any other dagger in the game would be. What is your point here? That 1 multiplier alone does not carry the dps burden youre placing upon it. Nor, more importantly, does it have anything to do with the dev-intended purpose for this item, which is a DC balancer.


all you can think of is the flavor affix which is clearly useful for undead
To make that statement demonstrates you have not read the thread, nor tried to understand the discussion within. As mentioned by myself and others, that one mod doesnt really help any, as against undead you would use another item, and when using this item it offers little in terms of assistance. It makes me wonder if you are really trying to contribute or just saying you dont like my/others opinion.

If you dont like the opinions, noted. If you want to contribute, feel free to post something which supports your claim(s) like dps or equipment scenarios. I would be interested to see when incorporeal bane helps you against assassinate-able trash mobs or raid bosses more than another choice, or even close enough to be worth replacing another choice. Or even better post something which demonstrates that Incorporeal Bane was a great design direction to take this item which makes it good at its job. Thanks.

[Hobgoblin]

is it just me or is the assassinate bugged on it?

it says + 6 in title and +4 in description......

[SableShadow]

is it just me or is the assassinate bugged on it?

it says + 6 in title and +4 in description......

Kinda goes with the theme of "maybe not a lot of thought was put into the weapon". :)
I get that someone had a skin, a cool name, and wanted to +6 assassinate on it, but ... there roads diverge.

I get the "Zomg! +*6* assassinate!!!!" being displayed in thread, but if that were a +4, would there be nearly as much enthusiasm?

[IronClan]

Yes, which is 1 better than the 15-20 x3 any other dagger in the game would be. What is your point here?

LOL "one better" seems a rather minimizing hand wavy spin to put on it. But yeah if you're going to completely handwave having the equivalent of a light pick multiplier with a scimmitar crit range and the +5[W] without stepping into a raid I don't suppose there's much point in arguing with you :)

I'll just say I disagree and I think the thread title is ludicrous and it's because of that basic level of being hopelessly invested into that exaggeration, that you've sort of forced to try and minimize and spin any positive of the item while exaggerating it's flavor affix into a huge negative. You're persistent but many of your posts especially as more of the items relative power are pointed out have increasingly sounded forced and scuffling.

Oh yeah and it's +6 assassinate...lol it just dawned on me that this non raid item is a +2 DC upgrade over ML28 Mythic loot and a ML28 Raid item from a few months ago. So when do we start talking about how badass this dagger is and everyone who called it a total failure mumbles stuff and tries to look inconspicuous as they head for ToEE to find theirs? You could make the argument that +4 on a non raid item is too much too soon. In fact I would make that argument.

[IronClan]

Kinda goes with the theme of "maybe not a lot of thought was put into the weapon". :)
I get that someone had a skin, a cool name, and wanted to +6 assassinate on it, but ... there roads diverge.

I get the "Zomg! +*6* assassinate!!!!" being displayed in thread, but if that were a +4, would there be nearly as much enthusiasm?

Hmmm if it is +4 that's still +4 on a ML26 non raid non Mythic drop rate item... well I'll take that back I am not sure if ToEE has any "Mythic" items in the sense of drop rate, or if they are all considered mythic drop rate... they must be really reduced drop rate or we'd have screen shots of all the items already. I'm guessing from their DDOcast description that ToEE has Mythic versions of everything that have a higher "Mythic weapon bonus" I believe they said normal stuff has a +2 mythic boost while Mythic versions have +4...

[bbqzor]

LOL "one better" seems a rather minimizing hand wavy spin to put on it
Theres no hand waiving. Myself and others have already posted some math demonstrating that since it lacks any other dps adding modifiers, its not as great as it looks. Its not bad, but its hardly a best dps option. And no ones made that claim but you.

So show some math to prove otherwise. You keep claiming its so great, prove it. A totally blank "light pick" doesnt automatically beat out weapons with additional damage mutations on them solely because it has larger crit numbers. The margin of extra crit isnt so great to overwhelm the lack of other damage. Its not like it went from 20 x4 to 15-20 x4. Its 6 extra "base hits" every 20 hits on average. Compared to 20 sets of potential on-hit effects or similar/related additions, its tough to come out ahead.

And furthermore, the suggestion of the thread is to NOT request additional dps, because doing so would make it exactly what you claim: the best in slot item. And thats not its purpose. No one has said the weapon has insufficient dps, so I am not sure what you are disagreeing with. The entire thread is based around the idea that the weapon should support its DC balance objective rather than have nonsensical mods tagged on at the end. To that purpose, its useful to point out that its dps is less than other options, as a balance to the concept that its utility should be more. Right now, it doesnt wholly deliver on that aspect.

You seem to be caught up in the title, which Ive already said could be worded differently, and not carefully reading the thread or you wouldve seen that. You said youve disagreed twice now and thats fine. We get it, you dont agree. The devs can read that same as anyone else. If you post again remember to put some evidence there to participate in evaluating the item or its alternatives. Other people have cited relative dps, alternate item mods, and design metrics alongside what the devs supplied in other threads. Feel free to do the same, data could add a lot more to the discussion than unsupported claims. Maybe theres something everyone is missing you can add to illustrate your point. Cheers.

[Powerhungry]

It has the highest assasinate dc available at +6 which could potentially

Text says Assassinate +6 however, descriptor says +4

[nokowi]

I wanted to compare this dagger with TF and Agony. I will assume Improved Critical Piercing was taken for TF already.

A Base T3 TF weapons without any effects gets: 4.5W with x2 crit. Assuming Guild Buff (+0.25W), Knife Specialization, +7 Weapon, and 64 Int (+27 Mod) with Int to Damage and Know the Angles.

Miss 1 (5%)
Hit 2-14 (65%)
Crit x3 15-18 (20%)
Crit x4 19-20 (10%)

0.05*(0)+0.65*(2.5*4.75+1.5*27+7)+0.20*3*(2.5*4.75 +1.5*27+7)+0.10*4*(2.5*4.75+1.5*27+7) = 97.97 base weapon (Tier 3 Thunderforged Dagger)


Agony is the closest competitor to this new dagger. Agony is 2.5W with 2d4 base dmg. Base damage is now 5 for 2d4.

0.05*(0)+0.65*(5*2.75+1.5*27+7)+0.20*3*(5*2.75+1.5 *27+7)+0.10*4*(5*2.75+1.5*27+7) = 101.06 base weapon (Agony)

Agony gets 5-36 dmg (20.5 avg) and Disintegration is worth 9.15 avg.





This new dagger without any effects gets: 5W with x3 crit.

Miss 1 (5%)
Hit 2-14 (65%)
Crit x3 15-18 (20%)
Crit x4 19-20 (10%)

0.05*(0)+0.65*(2.5*5.25+1.5*27+7)+0.20*4*(2.5*5.25 +1.5*27+7)+0.10*5*(2.5*5.25+1.5*27+7) = 118.22 base weapon (Epic Assassins Kiss)

Lets assume 100 MP:

Agony: (101.06*2.00)+20.5+9.15=231.77 damage per hit
Kiss: (118.22*2.02)=238.80 damage per hit

Epic Assassins Dagger gives you +2 DC, assuming you had a +4 DC item, and 1-2% extra damage over Agony. Some of this is also from the MP gained for your primary hand. Epic Assassins Kiss has a few odd effects as well (Greater Dispelling and Greater Incoporeal Bane).

This seems like an improvement over Agony and provides some new gear swap items now that your +4 DC item is not needed. This seems like a win to me.

[redoubt]

I wanted to compare this dagger with TF and Agony. I will assume Improved Critical Piercing was taken for TF already.

/snip

This seems like an improvement over Agony and provides some new gear swap items now that your +4 DC item is not needed. This seems like a win to me.

If you upgrade agony where do you end up?

+8 weapon
Entropic for 2d6 untyped, so this hits anything

If I follow your math correctly going from +7 to +8 weapon will add 13 (rolls 2-14) + 12 (rolls 15-18) + 8 (rolls 19-20) = 33 total divided by 20 = 1.65 per hit average.
Entropic is worth another 7 per hit.

Agony @ 231.77 + 8.65 = 240.42
Kiss @ 238.80

That is very close. Both have improved deception and both can slot a red damage upgrade.

I would say that based on the mob you are facing, you would want to use Agony on anything that bleeds to pick up the 3d8 bleed and Kiss on anything incorp to get the 3d6 bane.

[redoubt]

As an aside, how are we getting to 100 MP?

20 from assassin cores
24 from Shadow Dancer cores
6 twf
24 from 8 epic levels
----
74, which is better than I thought it would be. That leaves me to assume you are counting points spent in Harper and / or the temp bonus from Measure the Foe? If MtF, do you find it reliable enough for long fights? (I've been popping in and out of stealth to keep the stacks up between fights, but it seems you would be missing attacks by dropping into stealth during a boss beat down. Thoughts?)

20 MtF
9 harper
-----
103 total (if MtF is maintained and you spend in harper) This is again, way better than I expected and shows that you can even learn something in a negative thread!

[Enderoc]

Incorporeal bane... would that include when certain spawn like Shadar-kai or wraithform Necromancers become incorporeal as well?

[redoubt]

Incorporeal bane... would that include when certain spawn like Shadar-kai or wraithform Necromancers become incorporeal as well?

It should. Critical profile is far less important against undead and then you would compare to something like this instead anyway:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mutineer%27s_Blade

+7 Enhancement Bonus
Dexterity +8
Ghostbane VIII
Brilliance
Coruscating
Improved Disruption
Red Augment Slot

[AbyssalMage]

And Greater Dispelling (unless stealth fixed somehow, which I all kinds of doubt) will strip negative effects you apply to the mob off it. And thats if it even works, which it probably wont because the Caster Level of the effect is (or was, if somehow fixed) bugged to be way below level. This means it has a choice between doing nothing, or potentially removes Assassins Trick, rendering the combo above even more sketchy. Theres just no reason to put this here, rogues apply a ton of debuffs now and all this does is offer the potential to remove them. Anything would be better here, and depending on the current bug status of the effects caster level and targeting, potentially even nothing.

I just have to comment on this one.
If you run with this in a group that runs heavy on detrimental effects, take it off please. You will upset (using PC words here) a lot of people as the only things that will be stripped are the debuffs that will help the NPC die faster. Honestly, until they fix "Greater Dispelling" (hahaha) it is more of a grief tool that will make me/others wanna blacklist you. Granted, you can always run with friends/guildies :) but why limit yourself?

[Enderoc]

On the other hand use it in Tavern fights alongside Epic Cruel Nobility. Start a wager you as a rogue can take on a caster...even a sorcerer paladin.

[bbqzor]

As people are getting into rather detailed dps work, here are some thoughts.

At lv26+ its pretty fair to assume that people will have a good tool for a job, without really assuming the best tool. Its also fair to assume that people are generally intending to do things which are working together, even if everyone is not a build pro or has high playtime. Ergo, when you look at dps like this, it makes sense to assume things like seeker 10 (or 13 given the assassin enhancement) and deadly 10. Both show up in comparisons like this where crit profiles are different, and both are pretty fair game for people at this point even if just as random gen loot. Likewise, its fair to assume you wont be using weapons at cross purposes with themselves.


I wanted to compare this dagger with TF and Agony. I will assume Improved Critical Piercing was taken for TF already.
You also assumed Overwhelming critical it looks like from the math, but thats probably fair as well. Just didnt see it mentioned before.

Your math uses a +7 weapon value for TF. Even a lv24 weapon starts out at +9, with +10 and +11 for T1 and T2. Using T3 is beyond the scope of comparison here as the devs have flat out stated this weapon is not intended to compete along those lines. So your TF value needs to be higher no matter which tier of weapon youre looking at. I think T2 is appropriate, as it is 100% tradeable to acquire materials, and of equal ML. Which means adding 4 base damage (7 to 11). This makes the TF base (without considering the T1/2 mods, just the blank weapon) ~104.4. Or after 100 MP, 208.8

I am continuing to ignore the +4 damage for agony prowess set, since with Epic Litany of the Dead anyone can get +4 damage in that slot and it will mostly wash out. I say mostly because kiss will get more mileage out of it, but I dont think that its fair to assume lv28 raid loot when looking at lv26 non-raid (in different fashion) items. As the Kiss is intended to fill a dc balance concern in difficult (read mostly EE) context, I think its fair to assume that by the time you get to that point youll be in a place where this becomes more and more probable... and for cases where it doesnt, its unlikely the person will have a fully upgraded agony in the first place. But fair notification on that.

If you add Seeker 13 and Deadly 10 into the mix, given the above premises, you get the following (I used the previously posted numbers assuming they were right, and Im using rounding here so if its off a hair thats why. If its off a lot it means I rolled a 1 on math and please let me know).
T2 TF "Blank" = 267.8
Agony = 290.7
Epic Kiss = 312.3

Conclusions:
1) Agony is outperformed by lv26 weaponry. No surprise, and as is intentional by developers. Nice to see it holds up pretty okay though.
2) A totally blank T2 TF item is 85.7% of a kiss. In other words, that 'extra crit' everyone latched onto is worth a 16.6% increase in dps... *IF* the TF item is totally blank.
3) The TF mods only need to do a total of 44.5 (call it even 45) dps to outperform the Kiss in a straight up dps comparison. This is a virtual certainty if the TF item was crafting with dps mods on it (touch of flames is 33.25 dps alone, T2 dragons edge is another 20.7, thats over 50... not accounting for any help from the armor piercing etc).
4) Bear in mind as well that those above numbers use 100 melee power, and its likely a live assassin has less... meaning the gap grows. Kiss is the only weapon benefiting from melee power on all of its damage.
5) Even in accessibly perfect practical conditions, Kiss is only conditionally a better dps choice. Maybe there is some top-combo where it wins, but top-combos (T3 TF, max 28 setups, etc) are likely beyond the design space here. And Im honestly not sure there is one for assassins even then... zero additional dps mods is a big, big gap to fill.

So the end result is, you use T2 when the dps mods work (like, its not immune to fire). You use the kiss when the dps mods dont work, BUT the mob is still crit-able (like a fire giant or something I suppose). Thats a pretty minor niche, even after accounting for seeker which highlights the possible advantage of kiss. And against something like undead, youd use mutineers blade (linked above by 'redoubt')... the kiss drops abysmally without its crits, thats the only dps assistance the item provides.

This supports the idea that its primary purpose is not to be some "best dps" choice, but rather an item which has one job: To provide a useable tool when you need 2 extra DC. That it also provides similar dps to its peers is not some saving grace of the item. Its solely there to prevent assassins dps from getting completely pwned when they need the DC. Look, if the DC was on some item that was 2W 20 x2, it wouldnt really be worth the trade, right? Thats all this is. Its there to be sure you dont lose out (against its peer items, they said T3 was beyond the design parameters) by changing to your utility item. Thats smart design. Thats why the crit range was cited in the OP and the thread as nice, and not in need of adjustment, but hardly any kind of saving grace.

The rest of the item should show similar, logical insight. Incorporeal Bane should honestly never come into play when using this item, barring things like a stray ghost taking a swing as you attack some other mob in a swirling melee. It doesnt belong here. What does belong here is some other rogue/assassin centric modifiers that match the design space for this item. So far three good ones have been mentioned, when using critiera that they NOT simply add dps, but add utility when attempting to play in an assassinate focused style (sundering, improved destruction, tendon slice). Additionally many others have been suggested which are simply more rogue like and a better fit for rogues in general, outside of this items specific design purpose (poison damage, enervation, bleeding, wounding/puncturing).

There is basically no reason why this should not be changed to make absolutely sure this item actually fulfills its balanced-the-game-around-it spot in the universe. Assassins are knowingly being forced into this kind of equipment situation, so the equipment really ought to be fleshed out with that in mind. Leftover thoughts of anti-ghostness dont really belong and should be designed out.


I just have to comment on this one. If you run with this in a group that runs heavy on detrimental effects, take it off please
All assassins make the group heavy detrimental effects groups by joining them now. They spam more debuffs than about anything I can think off of hand, easily 4-6 icons if not more, ever several seconds. This is why this mod is also deserving of a rework, same as Incorporeal Bane cited above. I was going to cite this there as well but waited to pair it with this comment to again highlight precisely why this is an issue. You are right, its just that assassins are now that group that doesnt want this effect. They cant take off the dispelling from the DC item. Hence the problem.

Thanks so far everyone. Hope that math wasnt too terrible =p. But maybe it was necessary to bring context to the whole "it has +1 mult" situation and demonstrate exactly why changing the illogical and unhelpful effects is something that really needs to happen for the design process to turn failure into success. Cheers.

[brzytki]

Without any damage bonuses, seeker, [W] increases, MP - only blank non-upgraded Agony vs Assassin's Kiss - the former is better, they are even on Incorporeal targets. However, when you add around 60 damage bonus, 16 seeker, 0,25[W] from ship, 70 MP (i'd say standard for end game after the update), Assassin's Kiss is around 6% better DPS-wise than upgraded Agony on non Incorporeal targets. I'd say its damage is ok.

The only thing that irks me is Incorporeal Bane and Assassinate DC on the same weapon. I can't think of any Incorporeal monster off the top of my head that isn't inherently immune to SA and/or doesn't have high fort. All of them are either undead or quori.

[kmoustakas]

Game mechanic wise it makes no sense but flavor wise it's supposed to have an incorporeal blade itself that goes through stuff. I wish they didn't remove ghost touch when they added deception -FOR FLAVOR PURPOSES-.

[slarden]

Incorporeal bane... would that include when certain spawn like Shadar-kai or wraithform Necromancers become incorporeal as well?

It includes the incorporeal non-undead in the Inspired Quarter. This was a cannith crafting ability I did use in the inspired quarter along with the ghostly prefix before ghostly was so readily available.

Your question is good. I don't know if it includes enemies/players that have ghostly or other abilities that give them partial or complete incorporeality.

[CThruTheEgo]

TL;DR version: Assassin's Kiss offers higher dps than Agony.

I didn't feel like sorting through others' dps calcs to make sure I agreed with everything, so I just decided to do my own. Please note I was interested in how these weapons compare for me specifically, so the numbers below fit my build, gear, etc. To simplify calculations, and because there are so many situational variables, I just went with a best case scenario assuming max stacks of both blitz and advancing blows, and fighting against evil enemies so that harper agent of good damage applies (most enemies at the levels where you will use these weapons are evil, so I think this is fair to add). Because the bleed damage from Agony and incorporeal bane damage from Assassin's Kiss do not apply to all mobs, I did separate calculations with and without them for each weapon. If you want to know how they compare with a different build or under different circumstances, the default weapon damage formula is listed below so just plug in what you want. Here are the results:

Default weapon damage formula
m[ax + bc(x + y) + d(0.1)(x + y)] + .95w + (b + 0.1)z + .05v
a=non-crit percent in decimal form, b=non 19-20 crit percent in decimal form, c=non 19-20 crit multiplier, d=crit multiplier on 19-20, x=base damage mod, y=seeker damage, w=proc damage, z=on crit proc damage (e.g. burst effects), v=vorpal proc damage, m=(melee power + 100)/100

Agony fully upgraded in dreadnaught: 457.64925 with phlebotomizing damage included
Base weapon damage 2.5[5] = 12.5
Enhancement 8
Harper weapon enchantment 1
Int58 24
Know the angles int58 12
Deadly 10
Profane 4
Advancing blows 5
Harper agent of good 3
Seeker 12
Exceptional seeker 5
Dreadnaught critical damage 6
Entropic 7
Disintegration 9.15
Phlebotomizing 13.5
Knife specialization, overwhelming critical, and devastating critical 15-18x3, 19-20x5
Melee power 161 (70 master's blitz, 18 dreadnaught level 5, 24 epic levels, 9 harper, 20 assassin cores, 20 measure the foe)

Total base damage mod 79.5
Total seeker 23
Total proc damage 16.15
Bleed proc damage 13.5

m[ax + bc(x + y) + d(0.1)(x + y)] + .95w + (b + 0.1)z + .05v
a=non-crit percent in decimal form, b=non 19-20 crit percent in decimal form, c=non 19-20 crit multiplier, d=crit multiplier on 19-20, x=base damage mod, y=seeker damage, w=proc damage, z=on crit proc damage (e.g. burst effects), v=vorpal proc damage, m=(melee power + 100)/100

m=(161 + 100)/100 = 2.61
a=0.65
b=0.2
c=3
d=5
x=79.5
y=23
w=16.5
bleed proc damage=0.95(13.5)

2.61[(0.65)(79.5) + (0.2)(3)(79.5 + 23) + 5(0.1)(79.5 + 23)] + 0.95(16.5) = 444.82425 without bleed damage
2.61[(0.65)(79.5) + (0.2)(3)(79.5 + 23) + 5(0.1)(79.5 + 23)] + 0.95(16.5) + 0.95(13.5) = 457.64925 with bleed damage


Assassin's Kiss in dreadnaught: 507.91875 without incorporeal bane damage
Base weapon damage 5[2.5] = 12.5
Enhancement 7
Harper weapon enchantment 1
Int58 24
Know the angles int58 12
Deadly 10
Profane 4
Advancing blows 5
Harper agent of good 3
Seeker 12
Exceptional seeker 5
Dreadnaught critical damage 6
Greater incorporeal bane 14.5
Knife specialization, overwhelming critical, and devastating critical 15-18x4, 19-20x6
Melee power 163 (70 master's blitz, 18 dreadnaught level 5, 24 epic levels, 9 harper, 20 assassin cores, 20 measure the foe, 2 mythic)

Total base damage mod 78.5
Total seeker 23
Greater incorporeal bane damage 14.5

m[ax + bc(x + y) + d(0.1)(x + y)] + .95w + (b + 0.1)z + .05v
a=non-crit percent in decimal form, b=non 19-20 crit percent in decimal form, c=non 19-20 crit multiplier, d=crit multiplier on 19-20, x=base damage mod, y=seeker damage, w=proc damage, z=on crit proc damage (e.g. burst effects), v=vorpal proc damage, m=(melee power + 100)/100

m=(163 + 100)/100 = 2.63
a=0.65
b=0.2
c=4
d=6
x=78.5
y=23
greater incorporeal bane damage 0.95(14.5)

m[ax + bc(x + y) + d(0.1)(x + y)] + .95w + (b + 0.1)z + .05v
a=non-crit percent in decimal form, b=non 19-20 crit percent in decimal form, c=non 19-20 crit multiplier, d=crit multiplier on 19-20, x=base damage mod, y=seeker damage, w=proc damage, z=on crit proc damage (e.g. burst effects), v=vorpal proc damage, m=(melee power + 100)/100

2.63[0.65(78.5) + 0.2(4)(78.5 + 23) + 6(0.1)(78.5 + 23)] = 507.91875 without incorporeal bane damage
2.63[0.65(78.5) + 0.2(4)(78.5 + 23) + 6(0.1)(78.5 + 23)] + 0.95(14.5) = 521.69375 with incorporeal bane damage


I was curious about how much of a difference there was between the two weapons without the benefit of master's blitz. So subtracting 70 melee power from the above formulas and instead using m=1.91 for Agony and m=1.93 for Assassin's Kiss:
1.91[(0.65)(79.5) + (0.2)(3)(79.5 + 23) + 5(0.1)(79.5 + 23)] + 0.95(16.5) = 329.72675 without bleed damage
1.91[(0.65)(79.5) + (0.2)(3)(79.5 + 23) + 5(0.1)(79.5 + 23)] + 0.95(16.5) + 0.95(13.5) = 342.55175 with bleed damage
1.93[0.65(78.5) + 0.2(4)(78.5 + 23) + 6(0.1)(78.5 + 23)] = 372.73125 without incorporeal bane damage

[nokowi]

Tier 3 TF does more raw damage because of weapon effects. I have updated my numbers to show how Assassisn Kiss benefits from increasing bonuses along with better numbers. (Assassins Kiss will continue to improved compared to T3 or Agony as we get new gear)

I was more interested in the Assassins Kiss vs Agony comparison for an offhand improved deception weapon. I included Agony weapon effects in the final calculation that showed Assassins Kiss beating Agony for DPS. If you add in Seeker (I didnt originally) or higher stat or MP bonuses from new items, Assassins Kiss will pull ahead even farther because of the better crit multiplier. Here are my new numbers:

TWF Melee Power Was recently added. You also get 20 MP from MtF. Live my MP says 103.



As an example, I have +12 Seeker, +1 weapon enchantment from Harper, and +3 weapon enchantment from epic PL stance. I will include these along with +12 TF and +8 upgraded Agony.



Tier 3 Thunderforged Dagger
A Base T3 TF weapons without any effects gets: 4.5W with x2 crit. Assuming Guild Buff (+0.25W), Knife Specialization, +16 Weapon (+12 +1 +3), and 64 Int (+27 Mod) with Int to Damage and Know the Angles.

Miss 1 (5%)
Hit 2-14 (65%)
Crit x3 15-18 (20%)
Crit x4 19-20 (10%)

0.05*(0)+0.65*(2.5*4.75+1.5*27+16)+0.20*3*(2.5*4.7 5 +1.5*27+16+12)+0.10*4*(2.5*4.75+1.5*27+16+12) = 124.82 base weapon (Tier 3 Thunderforged Dagger)

I will randomly pick some weapon effects:
Touch of Flames (10-60) = 35 avg dmg
Dragons Edge (33-105)*30%= 20.7 avg dmg
Crippling Flames (135-325)*30%= 69 avg dmg
Total = 124.7 (assuming mob will bleed and has no fire resistance/immunity)



Agony
Agony is the closest competitor to this new dagger. Agony is 2.5W with 2d4 base dmg. Base damage is now 5 for 2d4. Enhcnatment is (+8+1+3)=12

0.05*(0)+0.65*(5*2.75+1.5*27+12)+0.20*3*(5*2.75+1. 5*27+12+12)+0.10*4*(5*2.75+1.5*27+12+12) = 121.31 base weapon (Agony)

Agony gets 5-36 dmg (20.5 avg) and Disintegration is worth 9.15 avg.




Assassins Kiss
This new dagger without any effects gets: 5W with x3 crit. Enchantment = (+7+1+3)=11

Miss 1 (5%)
Hit 2-14 (65%)
Crit x4 15-18 (20%)
Crit x5 19-20 (10%)

0.05*(0)+0.65*(2.5*5.25+1.5*27+11)+0.20*4*(2.5*5.2 5+1.5*27+11+12)+0.10*5*(2.5*5.25+1.5*27+11+12) = 141.62 base weapon (Epic Assassins Kiss)


Results
Lets assume 100 MP:

Agony: (121.31*2.00)+20.5+9.15=272.28 damage per hit
T3 TF: (124.82*2.00)= 249.64+124.7=374.34 damage per hit (assuming weap effects apply)
Kiss: (141.62*2.02)=286.07 damage per hit (plus the 2 MP for your other attacks).

Now that we add higher bonuses and include seeker, Assassins Kiss gets even better. It definitely beats Agony if you want an offhand Improved Deception item, and it allows some new gear swap choices now that your +4 Assassinate DC slot is free.

This weapon is a win (ignoring any dispell issues).

Edit: I did not include Deadly or any other equipment modifiers beyond Seeker 12 and +4 additional enhancement bonuses. If we are comparing Agony vs Assassins Kiss for an offhand item, technically I think I should have used 1/2 Int to damage for the offhand. The result will be the same for Assassins Kiss vs Agony. Kiss >> Agony

[nokowi]

TL;DR version: Assassin's Kiss offers higher dps than Agony.

I didn't feel like sorting through others' dps calcs to make sure I agreed with everything, so I just decided to do my own. Please note I was interested in how these weapons compare for me specifically, so the numbers below fit my build, gear, etc. To simplify calculations, and because there are so many situational variables, I just went with a best case scenario assuming max stacks of both blitz and advancing blows, and fighting against evil enemies so that harper agent of good damage applies (most enemies at the levels where you will use these weapons are evil, so I think this is fair to add). Because the bleed damage from Agony and incorporeal bane damage from Assassin's Kiss do not apply to all mobs, I did separate calculations with and without them for each weapon. If you want to know how they compare with a different build or under different circumstances, the default weapon damage formula is listed below so just plug in what you want. Here are the results:


It looks like we agree that Assassins Kiss beats Agony. I would be interested in having you add Tier 3 Thunderforged to your Legendary Drednought calculations, since TF has lower base damage (but higher effects).

In Shadowdancer
Tier 3 TF >> Assassins Kiss >> Agony (for raw DPS).
If you find utility in gear swap with Assassins Kiss or through the Improved Deception or for the +2 DC (over +4), you would pick Assassins Kiss as an Offhand weapon over a Tier 3 TF. Your primary weapon should be Tier 3 TF.

[Bolo_Grubb]

Where does this dagger drop in the Temple? Is it a specific rare? An end chest? Part 1 or Part 2? Both?

[CThruTheEgo]

I would be interested in having you add Tier 3 Thunderforged to your Legendary Drednought calculations, since TF has lower base damage (but higher effects).

I don't want to bother with T3 Thunderforged because there's no question that it's going to offer higher dps than either Agony or Assassin's Kiss. Plus, some of the effects on Thunderforged are difficult or impossible to quantify, such as mortal fear and fort bypass. I'm already committed to having an improved deception weapon in the offhand just for that benefit alone. So I'm really just concerned with how those two compare to determine which is the better choice for having improved deception in the offhand. Agony was the best choice for that, but now it appears that Assassin's Kiss is the best option.


If you find utility in gear swap with Assassins Kiss or through the Improved Deception or for the +2 DC (over +4), you would pick Assassins Kiss as an Offhand weapon over a Tier 3 TF. Your primary weapon should be Tier 3 TF.

Agreed.

[CThruTheEgo]

Where does this dagger drop in the Temple?

Yes.


Is it a specific rare? An end chest? Part 1 or Part 2? Both?

I don't know yet and would like to know the answers to these questions as well. I'd also like to know if difficulty matters and, if so, how much? Is it the same as the mythic items from epic Necro?

[bbqzor]

Game mechanic wise it makes no sense but flavor wise it's supposed to have an incorporeal blade itself that goes through stuff. I wish they didn't remove ghost touch when they added deception -FOR FLAVOR PURPOSES-.
Even approached from this standpoint, the bugged (and thus detrimental) dispelling effect is still an illogical liability which should be corrected. Furthermore, giving it ghostly or something would make far more sense to describe such a situation rather than incorporeal bane. If they are looking for a flavor mod to represent a roleplay element, they can still pick one which does more than "nothing" by offering something assassins can use... ghostly adds hide/move silent (helpful when sneaking to assassinate, it stays on point for the weapons design) and describes the situation better than a bane which will never be utilized. Also, its not a dps effect, which as demonstrated, is probably not the best direction for its balance.

To that end I will update the OP with this as a choice. And yes I realize ghostly isnt exactly "helpful" since its available a lot of places. But if they are going to make choices for 'story' reasons they can still make ones which at least aid the skills the item will be using, while fulfilling those reasons. Replacing Incorporeal Bane with Ghostly and the dispelling effect with another choice would be a success.


TL;DR version: Assassin's Kiss offers higher dps than Agony.

It looks like we agree that Assassins Kiss beats Agony.

I don't want to bother with T3 Thunderforged because there's no question that it's going to offer higher dps than either Agony or Assassin's Kiss
Yes. That matches all the conclusions and follows what has been stated all thread, even with numbers varying by what, exactly, you account for. A ml26 item beats out a ml23 item, and is somewhat "tied" in a situational sense with its peers (T2 TF). Once you get to T3 it loses out, and that is exactly by design. There isnt a lot of question about its dps value... but good or bad dps, it should still have a cohesive design on the other aspects which aids the player. Hence the attempt to focus on those rather than more dps.

[nokowi]

Where does this dagger drop in the Temple? Is it a specific rare? An end chest? Part 1 or Part 2? Both?

I was told it drops in any chests that have named items. In part 2, there is a chest right after the crest/key is used to open the door. That is the easiest to farm (I am told).

[Eth]

geez Forum DDO... *walks away shaking head*

If you want to have a good laugh look up the old CITW loot threads and how terrible CITW loot was back when it came out according to the forum.
Granted the upgrade paths did not exist back then, but still, even the base items are great.

[bartharok]

If you want to have a good laugh look up the old CITW loot threads and how terrible CITW loot was back when it came out according to the forum.
Granted the upgrade paths did not exist back then, but still, even the base items are great.

Just forum-logical. If it doesnt allow you to breeze through every quest without thinking, its useless. Until people actually use them, and find out they are pretty decent.

[krimsonrane]

Hey hey hey there. This dagger obviously fits the gearset of the one dev who tries to run an assassin. Don't you feel silly now?

That is the problem right there. It seems not a single dev has ever played an assassin and nor do they take our experienced opinions as worthy of consideration. They're either shoving dexterity down an assassins throat or giving us **** and calling it caviar.
That bastard sword came out fine though didn't it?

If I I'm fighting an undead with bladed weapons it's going to be an improved disruption weapon.
hell, I'd rather pull out my triple pos maul at a penalty than use assassins kiss to fight undead.

[krimsonrane]

I was told it drops in any chests that have named items. In part 2, there is a chest right after the crest/key is used to open the door. That is the easiest to farm (I am told).

easiest? I'm up to 48 runs now and zero drops of zero named items.

[Dragavon]

To me that dagger is vendor trash. One good ability does not make it a good weapon, when the rest of the stuff on it does not make it useful. The problem as I see it is that the enhancements on it are good in different situations. It needs more focus, to be better against some foes, then necessarily worse against others. Either make it really good against undead, or really good against other foes.

[Thar]

it needs ghostbane. because that's overperforming.

all of the items are questionable effect combinations. We expected better since HH had such nice synergy between the item effects. apparently they are not quite there with weapons yet.

[Chai]

Its a niche weapon - something we asked for here in the same venue, these very forums. Players provided feedback that they wanted weapons to not necessarily bypass thunderforged, but still have some reason to be best in slot under specific circumstances. Assassination is the specific circumstance where this is current best in slot. If you have better melee weapons for DPS when that is needed, swap em in.

[bbqzor]

look up the old CITW loot threads and how terrible CITW loot was back when it came out according to the forum
The claim was never made the item was "terrible". Only that the poorly paired effects failed to adequately meet the design goals this weapon was supposed to meet. And thats true.


One good ability does not make it a good weapon, when the rest of the stuff on it does not make it useful. The problem as I see it is that the enhancements on it are good in different situations. It needs more focus
This is precisely why the target was to change some of the less logical effects to ones which were more cohesive with the items stated goal of aiding assassinate in some form. Its not about raw dps, or even dps in general. Its about making sure the item is good/useful at the one job it had to do.


Its a niche weapon - something we asked for here in the same venue, these very forums. Players provided feedback that they wanted weapons to not necessarily bypass thunderforged, but still have some reason to be best in slot under specific circumstances.
Perhaps some people did ask for this in general, but as I and others mentioned in the assassin thread using that as a platform for a single T5 enhancement is poor design. And this item exemplifies why.


Assassination is the specific circumstance where this is current best in slot. If you have better melee weapons for DPS when that is needed, swap em in.
It is best in slot for one click of one ability. The lack of good item design makes it a poorer choice to use the other 99.9% of the time. This issue could have easily been avoided, without simply resorting to power creep. There is no need for it to relate to dps. Again, this has all been stated before... changing the other effects to ones which help with the overall playstyle of assassinate (such as ghostly or tendon slice) would make it a better item without bringing dps into the matter. That it is best at assassinate doesnt excuse why incorporeal bane or dispelling are there, etc... at times when the DC matters (such as ee, or maybe higher level eh) the items lack of focus is at its most apparent.

I had stopped bumping this thread because I feel its run its course. No new ideas are surfacing for ways to adjust this item, only more focus on its dps or relative value for dps. There are people who see one good thing and say its good for that and excuse the rest, and then theres people who look at the overall item being at odds with itself and asking for the design to be better aligned. If you simply want better dps, there are other options which equal or exceed this and it doesnt really enter the equation. If you want to be better at assassinate, this slightly helps the dc, but is a disservice in other ways.

It should be something that is wholly positive toward its goal for the user to equip, and it should be changed. If you have further ideas on how to do that, great. Please post them! Other things are just off topic. Cheers.

[IronClan]

easiest? I'm up to 48 runs now and zero drops of zero named items.

The named items drop in all rare chests (just adding this if you didn't know if you did maybe someone else didn't a lot of ppl are passing up rares to get to the end fights in my experience) this according to Dev quotes in other threads.

On topic: With the proposed change to lethality this Dagger is a 15-20X5 weapon... if any of you guys can't use yours when they drop feel free to pass them to someone who likes DPS and doesn't have 30 phlogs.

[bbqzor]

The named items drop in all rare chests (just adding this if you didn't know if you did maybe someone else didn't a lot of ppl are passing up rares to get to the end fights in my experience) this according to Dev quotes in other threads.
A good clarification to provide, I am sure some people will put this to use. Thanks.


On topic: With the proposed change to lethality this Dagger is a 15-20X5 weapon... if any of you guys can't use yours when they drop feel free to pass them to someone who likes DPS and doesn't have 30 phlogs.
Dps isnt really on topic. Any 15-20 weapon (ie, all daggers, for assassins) sees the same absolute increase in dps due to proposed Lethality changes (6 "extra crit instances" over 20 swings). There is no unique change for this weapon, and additionally this weapon sees proportionally less increase since it already had more weight to crits. Lastly, 30 phlogs isnt required for this to be beaten in dps even just considering general use. A rising tide carries all ships: there is no change to any advantage or disadvantage this item has in dps terms; it is simply one of several relatively similar options.

The topic is to provide alternatives for the poorly conceived effects which can bring alignment to the design focus, without undue disruption to its dps status. Currently ghostly and tendon slice (both offered by other posters, not myself) seem the best fits, as they isolate useful utility from secondary dps gains (such as destruction could provide) or secondary dc changes (which sundering could provide). All four remain great rogue effects which should show up on rogue-minded gear at some point, but I think the first two are the best suggestions for this item.