New Damage Calculations based on New ROFs: Rogue vrs Artie

[Singular]

Needle vrs Heavy Repeating Xbow vrs Great Xbow (the last 2 are Thunderforged) comparison.

A few assumptions:
- not accounting for precision (up to +30%) or any added sources of non-base damage (like poison, cold or whatever)
- max seeker (17), max deadly (11)
- not adding in sneak damage (rogues pull ahead here obviously)
- ignoring the red/orange slot, since it can be equal for both weapons
- Int damage is set at 23 (56 int is pretty easy to reach now)
- all feats appropriate for crossbows – improved critical, point blank range, etc
- I didn't add ranged power or doubleshot, so your dps will be higher than these calculations - yaaaay!
- I didn’t add past lives, Harper bonuses except for Know the Angles (I might make a spread sheet for added damage later) or anything else
- This is for fleshies, not wf. To make it for toasters, add 0.5 to the weapon die. I didn’t add this for two reasons: I’m lazy and likely Cthru will do it :)

Caveats:
- I often screw up the math. Feel free to check and criticize!
- I’m not super familiar with Rogue, so likely made mistakes here

Damage sources:
Weapon: (1-12) for N (~6.5); (1-10) for TH (~5.5); (2-16) for GX (~9)
Weapon bonus: +8 N, +12 TH, +12 GX
Int: +23
Int: +11 (from Know the Angles)
Deadly: +11
Prowess for Needle or Epic Litany: +4
Battle Engineer: +5 (+3 core, +2 enhancement)
Great Xbow: +9 (+3 core, +6 enhancement)
Rogue Mechanic Repeater: +9
Rogue Mechanic GXB: +17

Artie-----------Rogue
N = 68.5-------72.5
TH = 71.5-----75.5
GX = 79-------87

Added Critical Damage:
Battle Engineer: +2 to crits
Seeker: +12
Exceptional Seeker: +5
Legendary Dreadnaught: +6 (if you don’t run in this, just subtract it)
Total = 25

Weapon multipliers:
Deadly: +1
Point Blank Range: +1
Combat Archery: +1
Needle: +2.5
Th: +4.5
GXB +4.5
Rogue: GX = +1
Artie-----------Rogue
Needle: +5.5-----4.5
Th: +7.5-----6.5
GXB +7.5-----7.5

Criticals:
17-20 = +[*3] for N; [*2] for TH
15-20 = +[*2] for GX
19-20 = +[*1] for Devastating Critical in LD
19-20 = +[*1] for OC

Rogue get a +1 for repeaters and +2 with GXB
(is this true? The wiki makes this claim, but the forum threads seem to contradict it)

Base Calculation:

N: [5.5(6.5)+n]0.75+3[5.5(6.5)+n+25]0.1+5[5.5(6.5)+n+25][0.1=(?)*ranged power*bolts/sec
Th: [7.5(5.5)+n]0.75+2[7.5(5.5)+n+25]0.1+4[7.5(5.5)+n+25]0.1=(?)*ranged power*bolts/sec
GX: [7.5(9)+n]0.65+2[7.5(9)+n+25]0.2+4[7.5(9)+n+25]0.1=(?)*ranged power*bolts/sec

Rogue:

N: [4.5(6.5)+n]0.75+4[4.5(6.5)+n+23]0.1+6[4.5(6.5)+n+23][0.1=(?)*ranged power*bolts/sec
Th: [6.5(5.5)+n]0.75+3[6.5(5.5)+n+23]0.1+5[6.5(5.5)+n+23]0.1=(?)*ranged power*bolts/sec
GX: [7.5(9)+n]0.65+3[7.5(9)+n+23]0.2+5[7.5(9)+n+23]0.1=(?)*ranged power*bolts/sec

Steps (I put these in here ‘cause I constantly make mistakes. If you see some, please criticize!)
Artificer:

N: [5.5(6.5)+ 68.5]0.75+3[5.5(6.5)+ 68.5+25]0.1+5[5.5(6.5)+ 68.5+25]0.1=(?)
Th: [7.5(5.5)+ 71.5]0.75+2[7.5(5.5)+ 71.5+25]0.1+4[7.5(5.5)+ 71.5+25]0.1=(?)f
GX: [7.5(9)+ 79]0.65+2[7.5(9)+ 79+25]0.2+4[7.5(9)+ 79+25]0.1=(?)

N: [37.75+68.5]0.75+3[37.75+ 93.5]0.1+5[37.75+ 93.5]0.1=(?)
Th: [41.25+ 71.5]0.75+2[41.25+ 71.5+25]0.1+4[41.25+ 71.5+25]0.1=(?)
GX: [67.5+ 79]0.65+2[67.5+79+25]0.2+4[67.5+79+25]0.1=(?)

N: [106.25]0.75+3[131.25]0.1+5[131.25]0.1=(?)
Th: [112.75]0.75+2[137.75]0.1+4[137.75]0.1=(?)
GX: [146.5]0.65+2[171.5]0.2+4[171.5]0.1=(?)

N= 79.6875+39.375+65.625 = 184.6875
TH= 84.5625+27.55+55.1 = 167.2125
GX= 95.225+68.6+68.6 = 232.455

Rogue:

N: [4.5(6.5)+ 72.5]0.75+4[4.5(6.5)+ 72.5+23]0.1+6[4.5(6.5)+ 72.5+23][0.1=(?)*ranged power
Th: [6.5(5.5)+ 75.5]0.75+3[6.5(5.5)+ 75.5+23]0.1+5[6.5(5.5)+ 75.5+23]0.1=(?)*ranged power
GX: [7.5(9)+ 87]0.65+3[7.5(9)+ 87+23]0.2+5[7.5(9)+ 87+23]0.1=(?)*ranged power

N: [29.25+72.5]0.75+4[29.25+72.5+23]0.1+6[29.25+72.5+23][0.1=(?)
Th: [35.75+75.5]0.75+3[35.75+75.5+23]0.1+5[35.75+75.5+23]0.1=(?)
GX: [67.5+ 87]0.65+[67.5+87+23]0.2+6[67.5+87+25]0.1=(?)

N: [101.75]0.75+4[124.75]0.1+6[124.75][0.1=(?)
Th: [111.25]0.75+3[134.25]0.1+5[134.25]0.1=(?)
GX:[67.5+ 87]0.65+4[67.5+87+23]0.2+6[67.5+87+23]0.1=(?)

N: 76.3125+49.9+74.85= 198.0625
Th: 83.4375+40.275+67.125= 190.8375
GX: 100.425+142+106.75= 348.95

Final Numbers Artie--------------Rogue

N= 184.6875 --------------198.0625
TH= 167.2125 -------------190.8375
GX= 232.455 ---------------348.95

Ok, so then we take those numbers and turn them into dps. My tests show ROF (in bolts/min) as:

Needle: 169
w/Tensers: 174

Alchemical Heavy Repeater: 150
w/AoS : 169 (it might be just slightly under Needle)

Great Cross Bow: 75 (every single test)
w/AOS : ~85
w/Tensers and AOS: 100

(I’m going to assume, perhaps incorrectly, that GXB users will use Tenser’s and all others won’t and that haste works as AOS for rogues, and that rogues have it on. If you don’t, your dps will decrease)

So divide those by 60 seconds (rounded to 2nd decimal):
N: 2.82
HR: 2.82
GX: 1.67

So these are the raw dps numbers. From here, add ranged power:
Artie:
N= 184.6875*2.82= 520.82
TH=167.2125*2.82= 471.54
GX== 232.455*1.67= 388.2

Rogue:
N= 198.0625*2.82= 558.54
Th= 190.8375*2.82= 538.16
GX= 348.95*1.67= 582.70

FINAL TOTALS:
Artie--------------Rogue
N= 520.82 -----------558.54
TH= 471.54 ----------538.16
GX= 388.2 ------------582.70

Discussion:

It looks like, even without Deadly Weapons, Rogues are going to pull ahead in DPS for xbows. Add in their sneak attack dice (12d6 for HRC and 14d6 for GXB, plus their capstone of +2 more) and they're doing pretty well. I now hate rogues. :p

It also looks like Needle wins the straight up dps contest for arties. Take this with a grain of salt until someone else checks my math – last time I did this, Needle also won, but I was wrong. I have a Needle-fetish :)

With regards to Great Crossbows: they are problematic. To make them competitive, you are going to have to keep Tensors and Haste/AoS up constantly - that will be tough. Add in Mortal Fear procs off bolts, Heavy Repeater wins on all non-bosses.

That said, in terms of adding damage, all added points will help in this order:

Great Crossbows, Needle, Everything else. GXBs have the extended crit threat range and Needle as the extra multiplier. This will additionally favor Rogues more than Artificers. Artificers will get higher dps from Needle but will lack everything TH weapons bring to the table - and that is a lot of power.

So if you can add to your base damage via past lives, harper tree, Halfling friends and anything else, you’ll pull ahead. I’ll get around to making a spreadsheet of added damage someday (unless you kindly beat me to it!).

Last, it looks to me that 5 Rogue/15 Artie for the tier 5 Rogue stuff + Artie spells will produce the most dps out of these two builds. In the multi-class section, I worked out a 5 Rogue/15 Paladin and it pumps out great dps via Needle and slightly more dps than pure Rogues using the GXB. However, GXB Rogues add a lot of extra damage in terms of sneak attack, so I think they ultimately come out ahead. Also, I didn't include ranged power, which Rogues are higher in than Arties, nor feats, which Rogues can use to focus on Xbow damage (ranged power and criticals) that arties probably shouldn't take (prob. spell crits and DCs are more important).

Thanks for reading, go plink plink plink stuff to death!

[Livmo]

Thank you very much for doing this!!!

It would be nice to get some arty love regarding ranged power/damage and spells in Epics.

[UurlockYgmeov]

simply too much math for my DnD/DDO - but commend you for doing so!

Long live the GXB!

[hit_fido]

It looks like, even without Deadly Weapons, Rogues are going to pull ahead in DPS for xbows. Add in their sneak attack dice (12d6 for HRC and 14d6 for GXB, plus their capstone of +2 more) and they're doing pretty well. I now hate rogues. :p

As with every class revamp it doesn't take long to ask, but what about my class. I have this feeling now after seeing mechanic tree and your calcs (good effort btw).

So what's reasonable to ask and look forward to with upcoming artificer pass? I don't think it's out of the question that a heavily invested rogue mechanic does more dps solely with a crossbow and sneak attack than an artificer does solely with a crossbow. But I'd like to see how they'll allow for rune arms to close that gap.

To start with:

- eliminate 10% run speed penalty for charging/using the rune arm

- add enhancements that scale rune arm imbues by ranged or melee power (depending on whether melee or ranged weapon is equipped)

- add an enhancement that applies a straight up increase to rune arm shots, like 5%/10%/15%

- allow generic tactics related dc increases (combat mastery, know the angles) to apply to rune arm dc

[Singular]

As with every class revamp it doesn't take long to ask, but what about my class. I have this feeling now after seeing mechanic tree and your calcs (good effort btw).

So what's reasonable to ask and look forward to with upcoming artificer pass? I don't think it's out of the question that a heavily invested rogue mechanic does more dps solely with a crossbow and sneak attack than an artificer does solely with a crossbow. But I'd like to see how they'll allow for rune arms to close that gap.

To start with:

- eliminate 10% run speed penalty for charging/using the rune arm

- add enhancements that scale rune arm imbues by ranged or melee power (depending on whether melee or ranged weapon is equipped)

- add an enhancement that applies a straight up increase to rune arm shots, like 5%/10%/15%

- allow generic tactics related dc increases (combat mastery, know the angles) to apply to rune arm dc

Oh, I did not come here to whine - I am *very, very happy* about these changes!

Yes, Rogues got a boost, but so did Arties - our ROF rocks now! Very much like it. I hope they don't screw up our Doubleshot though... Besides, Arties have spells and rune arms to make up for the Xbow dps differences between us. I think we come out well.

I'm also glad that Rogues can use Great Crossbows well. It's nice to have some class differentiation.

And, yes, it will be nice when they look at Artificer - hopefully, they'll give us some more options for speeding up the rune arm.

I just wanted to show everyone what's up with our ROF and which xbows are good to use.

[Cordovan]

Thank you for the great feedback.

[gwonbush]

Your calculations have a flaw: they faultily assume that an arti has the same RoF as a rogue. T5 Mechanic has an enhancement that improves repeater attack speed by 10% and non-repeating crossbows by 20%. You also didn't take into account the extra 20 RP that is in the mechanic tree. And that's just for the first number dps.

For the whole dps (useful in comparing Needle VS TF repeater), you completely ignored proc damage.

[patang01]

Oh, I did not come here to whine - I am *very, very happy* about these changes!

Yes, Rogues got a boost, but so did Arties - our ROF rocks now! Very much like it. I hope they don't screw up our Doubleshot though... Besides, Arties have spells and rune arms to make up for the Xbow dps differences between us. I think we come out well.

I'm also glad that Rogues can use Great Crossbows well. It's nice to have some class differentiation.

And, yes, it will be nice when they look at Artificer - hopefully, they'll give us some more options for speeding up the rune arm.

I just wanted to show everyone what's up with our ROF and which xbows are good to use.

I like the fact that repeaters can now use clickies without any timing issues. I can finally use things like Pin.

[ArkoHighStar]

any chance you could add bows to your list, the changes were supposed to open up the choices to more than just crossbows and it woudl be nice to see if that actually worked.

[UurlockYgmeov]

As with every class revamp it doesn't take long to ask, but what about my class. I have this feeling now after seeing mechanic tree and your calcs (good effort btw).

So what's reasonable to ask and look forward to with upcoming artificer pass? I don't think it's out of the question that a heavily invested rogue mechanic does more dps solely with a crossbow and sneak attack than an artificer does solely with a crossbow. But I'd like to see how they'll allow for rune arms to close that gap.

To start with:

- eliminate 10% run speed penalty for charging/using the rune arm

- add enhancements that scale rune arm imbues by ranged or melee power (depending on whether melee or ranged weapon is equipped)

- add an enhancement that applies a straight up increase to rune arm shots, like 5%/10%/15%

- allow generic tactics related dc increases (combat mastery, know the angles) to apply to rune arm dc

IIRC Steelstar is chomping at the bit to do a pass on Arty... so SOON™ish™er™

[Singular]

Thank you for the great feedback.

Not at all :)

Thanks for noticing!

Uh, if any dev is interested, it takes very little added base damage to get the GXB into higher dps than the repeaters - around 4 extra pts. It would be as simple as changing the weapon damage from 2d8 to 2d8+2-4 or 2d10. Or increase each Rogue enhancement for GXBs by 1, so that instead of +2 they are getting +3. A very, very small change!

[Singular]

Your calculations have a flaw: they faultily assume that an arti has the same RoF as a rogue. T5 Mechanic has an enhancement that improves repeater attack speed by 10% and non-repeating crossbows by 20%. You also didn't take into account the extra 20 RP that is in the mechanic tree. And that's just for the first number dps.

For the whole dps (useful in comparing Needle VS TF repeater), you completely ignored proc damage.

You're totally right. Keep in mind that ranged alacrity doesn't stack with haste or armor of speed. My test artie used AOS while doing the ROF tests. So, yes, these numbers aren't perfect, but they are close - I've tested the difference between AOS and Needle a lot and rarely come up with any differences.

Also, none of the above numbers include Ranged Power. As you note, it's going to give rogues a boost over arties - 20% more! I can add that in later today. Also, Rogues but not Arties, will get Vorpal on 19-20 w/GXBs. That's nice :)

With all these bonuses, I'm extremely tempted to make a pure rog or a rog/pali/fighter, just to see big numbers with the xbow.


I like the fact that repeaters can now use clickies without any timing issues. I can finally use things like Pin.

I apologize, it's too time consuming for me to work out all the bonuses each class would get, then the dps charts based on estimates for damage. Also, I don't have a ranged toon to determine ROF. But you can do it! I'll explain my damage calculator:

This: N: [5.5(6.5)+n]0.75+3[5.5(6.5)+n+25]0.1+5[5.5(6.5)+n+25][0.1=(?)*ranged power*bolts/sec

Is from this:

N: [Weapon Multiplier(Weapon Damage)+Total Base Damage]0.75+Critical Hit Multiplier[WM(WD)+TBD+Added Critical Damage]0.1+CHM[WM(WD)+TBD+ACD][0.1=(?)*ranged power*bolts/sec

The 0.75, 0.1 and 0.1 are the percentages, expressed as decimals, for each to hit number. So for Needle, 75% of the shots are normal, 10% fall into 17-18, and 10% fall into 19-20. Usually, you're going to be using the 0.1 for the 19-20 and 0.05 for each critical out of that range - so a scimitar will have 0.2 rather than 0.1. Just make sure you subsequently adjust your "normal" to hit down to 0.6!

I leave off the 0.05 for missing because the calculation takes that into account without it - all the to hit numbers add up to 0.95

[gwonbush]

Mechanical Reloader isn't an alacrity bonus. Much like rapid shot and rapid reloader, the increase in attack speed doesn't show up in your character sheet. Though I admit I have yet to test it on live.

As for the vorpal strikes on 19-20, it's fun. In case you forgot, Great Crossbows knock down enemies on a vorpal hit with no save.

[Singular]

Mechanical Reloader isn't an alacrity bonus. Much like rapid shot and rapid reloader, the increase in attack speed doesn't show up in your character sheet. Though I admit I have yet to test it on live.

As for the vorpal strikes on 19-20, it's fun. In case you forgot, Great Crossbows knock down enemies on a vorpal hit with no save.

Oh, ok. The wiki doesn't say that, it lists it as "ranged alacrity."

I take it you have a mechanic and Mechanical Reloader is stacking with alacrity? If so, then yes, you're going to have to add an additional 20% speed factor to the ROFs (if it's actually at this speed).

But if you're a mechanic, just do some ROF tests and report back, please! :)

[Humperdink]

Oh, ok. The wiki doesn't say that, it lists it as "ranged alacrity."

I take it you have a mechanic and Mechanical Reloader is stacking with alacrity? If so, then yes, you're going to have to add an additional 20% speed factor to the ROFs (if it's actually at this speed).

But if you're a mechanic, just do some ROF tests and report back, please! :)

It's a little confusing. Here are the notes from the original Rogue Mechanic proposal posted by Sev:

"Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster."

Here are the release notes from Lammania:

"Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster."

Here are the Live U25 release notes:

"Mechanical Reloader: +10 Ranged Power, +10% Ranged Alacrity with repeating crossbows and thrown weapons. +20% Ranged Alacrity with non-repeating crossbows."

This is what the 20 second Action Boost Haste for 30% alacrity displays on the character sheet (stacking with Haste):

http://oi62.tinypic.com/2ntwkea.jpg


I always understood it as two separate actions- how long it takes to reload the bolt(s) and how long it takes to cycle 1 "shot". So my impression was the advantage the new Mechanic offered was it sped up the reload animation (reducing the length of time to load). But with the reworked animation, I'm not sure how it works now. Of course, this is just theory work. By testing the real world rate of fire like Singular is, we can come up with the actual measurable differences for the sum total.

P.S. I don't know why my embedded image isn't showing. For some reason my ability to use IMG tags is turned off in the Artificer subforum, but works elsewhere.

[Singular]

It's a little confusing. Here are the notes from the original Rogue Mechanic proposal posted by Sev:

"Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster."

Here are the release notes from Lammania:

"Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster."

Here are the Live U25 release notes:

"Mechanical Reloader: +10 Ranged Power, +10% Ranged Alacrity with repeating crossbows and thrown weapons. +20% Ranged Alacrity with non-repeating crossbows."

This is what the 20 second Action Boost Haste for 30% alacrity displays on the character sheet (stacking with Haste):

http://oi62.tinypic.com/2ntwkea.jpg


I always understood it as two separate actions- how long it takes to reload the bolt(s) and how long it takes to cycle 1 "shot". So my impression was the advantage the new Mechanic offered was it sped up the reload animation (reducing the length of time to load). But with the reworked animation, I'm not sure how it works now. Of course, this is just theory work. By testing the real world rate of fire like Singular is, we can come up with the actual measurable differences for the sum total.

P.S. I don't know why my embedded image isn't showing. For some reason my ability to use IMG tags is turned off in the Artificer subforum, but works elsewhere.

Cool - looks like it adds as a straight percentage. Uh, that pic shows you getting 57% - haste boost: 30%, ranged alacrity: 20%, where is the 7% coming from?

I wonder if that's a BAB bonus or something? Or maybe you have an equipment bonus of 7% somewhere? If so, that will make everything very easy to understand - they would just stack in this case.

Anyways, yeah, that's going to pull the Rogue GXB and Repeater ahead of Arties even further. That's great news for Rogues.

[Humperdink]

Cool - looks like it adds as a straight percentage. Uh, that pic shows you getting 57% - haste boost: 30%, ranged alacrity: 20%, where is the 7% coming from?

I wonder if that's a BAB bonus or something? Or maybe you have an equipment bonus of 7% somewhere? If so, that will make everything very easy to understand - they would just stack in this case.

Anyways, yeah, that's going to pull the Rogue GXB and Repeater ahead of Arties even further. That's great news for Rogues.

The feat Blinding Speed is giving me 22% ranged alacrity (same as Haste has for years, they just changed the text description.) 30% Haste Boost from Legendary Dreadnaught appears to give (57-22)= 35%. I wonder if that's real or just UI bugs. Oh, and that screenshot was at BAB 28 due to Tensor's (artificer.)

[Singular]

The feat Blinding Speed is giving me 22% ranged alacrity (same as Haste has for years, they just changed the text description.) 30% Haste Boost from Legendary Dreadnaught appears to give (57-22)= 35%. I wonder if that's real or just UI bugs. Oh, and that screenshot was at BAB 28 due to Tensor's (artificer.)

If you could do the ROF w/just blinding speed, you'd have a baseline to do the other calculations, to figure out what your ROF would be with the extra alacrity boosts and dps w/out any haste/boosts. It's pretty simple: stack 200 or 1000 bolts and press fire for 1 minute. Repeat a few times to make sure you're consistent. If you are consistent, any small inconsistencies will come from doubleshot.

[ClanBastage]

First off great post.

I rolled a new life for a pure mechanic GxB user....OMFG...the DPS is off the charts!

He has 3 ranger past lives, and all the feats/enhancements running in Shadowdancer destiny. The BDR for my tier2 TF GxB is 92.08....105.20 if someone casts a deadly weapons on my.

Average hits are in the 220-300 base damage range, with crits ~ 1200ish (crits on 15 according to character screen...seems higher than that though...have not officially "tested"). Helpless crits are 2k+ and seem to happen very often!

All this damage coupled with IPS and the inherent "CC" provided by the GxB, and the output is insane, as well as the survivability.

This weekend I seemed to be running with lots of repeater toons and archers and I owned them in kill count. I know this is not a definitive measure of DPS but when one toon in the party dominates 60-70% of the kills that is telling me something...

Additionally, I have a 15arty/5 rogue (lesser hearted my arty) to test the difference. The damage output shot-per-shot is definitely lower but the mini-burst of fussilade is pretty sweet, even if very short lived. Even being able to self Deadly Weapons myself I cannot reach the BDR of the pure rogue since I don't have access to master builder.

All in all, I am majorly satisfied with the new changes, particularly because Great Crossbows are just bad ass!

I next want to fool around with the crafted traps since it seems I can get trap DC at 100+ (Disable skill 100%). Will update as I do this.

Thanks!
Onree (Pure Rogue Mechanic)
Tinkerin (15 Arty/5 Rogue GxB)

[Singular]

First off great post.

I rolled a new life for a pure mechanic GxB user....OMFG...the DPS is off the charts!

He has 3 ranger past lives, and all the feats/enhancements running in Shadowdancer destiny. The BDR for my tier2 TF GxB is 92.08....105.20 if someone casts a deadly weapons on my.

Average hits are in the 220-300 base damage range, with crits ~ 1200ish (crits on 15 according to character screen...seems higher than that though...have not officially "tested"). Helpless crits are 2k+ and seem to happen very often!

All this damage coupled with IPS and the inherent "CC" provided by the GxB, and the output is insane, as well as the survivability.

This weekend I seemed to be running with lots of repeater toons and archers and I owned them in kill count. I know this is not a definitive measure of DPS but when one toon in the party dominates 60-70% of the kills that is telling me something...

Additionally, I have a 15arty/5 rogue (lesser hearted my arty) to test the difference. The damage output shot-per-shot is definitely lower but the mini-burst of fussilade is pretty sweet, even if very short lived. Even being able to self Deadly Weapons myself I cannot reach the BDR of the pure rogue since I don't have access to master builder.

All in all, I am majorly satisfied with the new changes, particularly because Great Crossbows are just bad ass!

I next want to fool around with the crafted traps since it seems I can get trap DC at 100+ (Disable skill 100%). Will update as I do this.

Thanks!
Onree (Pure Rogue Mechanic)
Tinkerin (15 Arty/5 Rogue GxB)

Nice! Yeah, the helpless from GXB must be sweet :)

Glad you're having a good time - I think the changes to Xbow and ROF made crossbows fun again.

Hey, would you mind doing an ROF test? I'm curious how fast Rogues shoot, how many bolts/second. If I have that number, and ranged power, we can figure out your dps.

One question: why Shadow Dancer and not, say, Legendary Dreadnaught?

Oh, and this might suck, I think there's a thread where they describe the trap DCs as not being based on disable. I hope I'm wrong on this one, but I recall reading that not too long ago.

[ClanBastage]

Hey, would you mind doing an ROF test? I'm curious how fast Rogues shoot, how many bolts/second. If I have that number, and ranged power, we can figure out your dps.

One question: why Shadow Dancer and not, say, Legendary Dreadnaught?

Oh, and this might suck, I think there's a thread where they describe the trap DCs as not being based on disable. I hope I'm wrong on this one, but I recall reading that not too long ago.


I will run some numbers and do a ROF test and provide my averages, etc. I am not a math wiz so it will likely be "raw"....or should I say "rawr"!!

I like SD since I am INT based however I will fool around with LD and see how that effects my damage...maybe I will be surprised.

Also thinking of going Heavy Armor now since my reflex is at 89 with twists, but I rarely don't worry about damage since things tend to die before they get that close to me.

I will mess around with traps this evening and see what I come up with...more to follow

[Retrodark]

I will run some numbers and do a ROF test and provide my averages, etc. I am not a math wiz so it will likely be "raw"....or should I say "rawr"!!

I like SD since I am INT based however I will fool around with LD and see how that effects my damage...maybe I will be surprised.

Also thinking of going Heavy Armor now since my reflex is at 89 with twists, but I rarely don't worry about damage since things tend to die before they get that close to me.

I will mess around with traps this evening and see what I come up with...more to follow

I have been running in LD and I see like 4-7K crits on GXB (with maybe 3 stacks of blitz or none). On the flip side, I see 3-5K+ crits quite common with a TF repeater or needle. I think the biggest issue I see with LD is that the GXB cannot keep up a 10 stack blitz...in fact it is hard to even reach a 5 stack by using the GXB alone. Repeaters on the otherhand can reach blitz quickly and maintain a 10 stack therefore surpassing the GXB by a decent amount.

I did a quick test against the fire giant in Claw(EE) last night (I had all of the GXB enhancements and 35% base DShot). This was without using any special boosts (KtA, haste, etc.), this is what I saw.

I used each weapon three times each against the giant, and he was never in a helpless state (except for gxb knocking him prone (doesn't count as helpess). I didn't use blitz either, which would have given the repeaters more of an advantage.

TF (T2 - lvl 26 (1st degree burns/dragon's edge) GXB - avg 23 seconds
Needle (T3) - avg 22.5 seconds
TF (T2 - lvl 26) (1st degree burns/dragon's edge) Heavy Repeater - avg 17.5 seconds

When dealing with trash the repeater just mops up the dungeon much faster than the gxb, especially on higher level EEs. Throw mortal fear on it and well you know...

[ClanBastage]

When dealing with trash the repeater just mops up the dungeon much faster than the gxb, especially on higher level EEs. Throw mortal fear on it and well you know...

I have found just the opposite...my GxB tears thru trash was faster than repeaters...it is not even close! I will do a similar test on the same giant and see what I can come up with.

[Singular]

Thanks for the tests - that helps us understand what's going on a lot. It's great that different people are finding either GXB or Repeaters to their liking :)

How much base damage you bring will change which crossbow produces the most dps - for Rogues, added base damage will boost GXB the most. For Arties, it will boost Needle the most, Repeaters next. From your example, it looks like TH Repeater added damage exceeds Needle's.

Re: how to get Blitz up on a GXB: I think ISP would do it the fastest.

For GXB users: do you use Tensors? Haste? How do you keep your speed up?

If Blitz cannot be maintained w/GXBs, I would imagine that Divine Crusader would be a good ED. I would have previously said Fury of the Wild, but they really Crucibled it for crossbows.

[ToastyFred]

Pro Tip: You just might want to re-test the RoF for Mechanics. Rumor has it that it was nerfed in the last patch last Friday. (Yay Severlin.)

[CThruTheEgo]

Nice work Singular. I didn't go through it all in detail, mostly just caught the TL;DR version, but great info.


- This is for fleshies, not wf. To make it for toasters, add 0.5 to the weapon die. I didn’t add this for two reasons: I’m lazy and likely Cthru will do it :)

Haha. I wouldn't count on it this time. I'm too busy writing my dissertation and, when I do have time for DDO, I'm too preoccupied with my assassin and tempest. I'm sure I'll do some arti dps calcs whenever we get the arti pass, but who knows when that will be.


Oh, and this might suck, I think there's a thread where they describe the trap DCs as not being based on disable. I hope I'm wrong on this one, but I recall reading that not too long ago.

Unless it changed with U25, and I don't think it did, both elemental and magical crafted traps are based on your disable device score with the improved traps enhancement affecting how much of your disable device skill is used to determine their DC.

[Singular]

Pro Tip: You just might want to re-test the RoF for Mechanics. Rumor has it that it was nerfed in the last patch last Friday. (Yay Severlin.)

Just for mechanics or everyone? If so, that sucks. It puts crossbows on the backburner again.

I can redo the ROF w/my artie, but I don't have a mechanic to test it out. Hoping someone does soon :)

[Vanhooger]

Just got my 20 rogue mechanic to 28.

Using LD now.

Repeater dps is awesome.

Gxbow apart from big crits still meh, disappointed.

[ToastyFred]

Just for mechanics or everyone? If so, that sucks. It puts crossbows on the backburner again.

I can redo the ROF w/my artie, but I don't have a mechanic to test it out. Hoping someone does soon :)

Not sure. A friend said it happened for "Mechanics." I didn't ask him to clarify further then and I haven't seen him online since to ask now.

Perhaps what was nerfed was not X-Bows per se but one of the Mechanic's abilities to reload faster?

[Vanhooger]

Not sure. A friend said it happened for "Mechanics." I didn't ask him to clarify further then and I haven't seen him online since to ask now.

Perhaps what was nerfed was not X-Bows per se but one of the Mechanic's abilities to reload faster?

After last night spent doing only ee, I can say that repeater dps is so good! I have completely abandoned gxbow for now.

[Retrodark]

After last night spent doing only ee, I can say that repeater dps is so good! I have completely abandoned gxbow for now.

Yeah me too on the gxbow for now.

I just got back up to doing Epic levels again last night after my recent ITR. I sort of feel like repeater reload speed has slowed down some since last patch on Friday. Sort of getting that pew pew pew.......pew pew pew feeling again instead of pew pew pew ... pew pew pew. Has anyone else noticed this?

Another question...is pin working to "pin" the target in place with xbows? I have seen it cause them to move really slow (although this could be legshot too), but I have yet to see them stop in their tracks (pinned in place and helpless as the description implies). I am mostly attempting this shot with a repeater. I have used the pin attack on unsuspecting targets(not moving - back to me) and they just turn and start coming at me. I see that "pin" will be on the target when you view them, but it didn't make them helpless.

Lastly, I have yet to see Lethality work on my repeater. I mean stuff dies pretty fast anyway, but I never see any sort of blue/green vorpal skull type thing pop up like you do for vorpal, banish, smiting, and disruption.

Currently using Epic Silver Slinger w/ pulverizer (15-20/x3 - 19-20/x5 crit profile) or a lvl 20 imp paralyzing heavy repeater from eveningstar challenge turn-ins from 20-22. Gonna switch to Needle for 23-25, then TF from 26-28.

[ClanBastage]

After last night spent doing only ee, I can say that repeater dps is so good! I have completely abandoned gxbow for now.

I guess I am still going to be the dissenter on this topic...I personally think the GxB is better than the repeaters and I have had no issue maintaining a 10 stack Blitz on my GxB. I am currently leveling DC and I think that will be fun as well...especially the clicky doubleshot countdown thingy and the bonus crit range! More to follow after I get that up to tier5. I am having no issues soloing EE content with the GxB, since things tend to die before they get near me...

Plus....*chunk...chunk...chunk...* is way better than "pewpewpew...pewpewpew"