Fort bypass not working

[Delacroix21]

This bug also exists on live, but in honor of the rogue pass thought it should be addressed.


I currently have=
35% thunderforge dragons edge
25% precision
20% upgraded flawless black dragon armor
15% grim precision twist
5% ship buff

For a total of 100% fort bypass. And yet I see about 15% of my critical hits being resisted (over 300 swings), so something is not stacking with something or just not working. I tested with various gears and i THINK the problem is grim precision not stacking/working.


Can I get a Dev post on if two of these fort bypasses are coded the same?

[ToastyFred]

Maybe the mobs you're testing against have 115% Fortification?

[Tinco]

I think that dragon's edge doesn't stack with the dragonscale armor and that this was always the case per usual stacking rules from gear properties.

[Delacroix21]

I am not sure which is the case= if mobs have 115% fort (i don't think they should) or if something is not stacking.


As for thunder forge and flawless black dragon not stacking that could be it, as both are equipment. Would love a Dev confirmation though.

[unbongwah]

35% thunderforge dragons edge
20% upgraded flawless black dragon armor
Armor-piercing gear doesn't stack, so your total Fortification bypass should be 80%, not 100%. Which sounds about right if ~15% of your crits are being resisted.

[Delacroix21]

I also noticed more crits with Piercing clarity (from GMoF) twisted, which lead me to assume grim precision is not working, OR it could just be offsetting the black dragon not stacking.

[Delacroix21]

Armor-piercing gear doesn't stack, so your total Fortification bypass should be 80%, not 100%. Which sounds about right if ~15% of your crits are being resisted.

But different fort bypass amounts used to stack, like using 1 treason and 1 upgraded treason, was this changed?

[Firewall]

Thunderforged and Black Dragon Armor do not stack.

You will find that you get a blue 'Effects' message in your General Chat window that tells you that you have those two items equipped and that they do not stack when you wear them both at the same time. This has been the case for a very long time now. Item bonuses to fortification do not stack.

[Krelar]

But different fort bypass amounts used to stack, like using 1 treason and 1 upgraded treason, was this changed?

It has never been officially acknowledged as changed but equipment has not stacked since shortly after epic gianthold was released.

[Delacroix21]

It has never been officially acknowledged as changed but equipment has not stacked since shortly after epic gianthold was released.

Ah i see. Well I did not like using the inferior flawless black dragon scale vs thunder forged, so this frees that up. It also makes twisting both grim precision and piercing clarity for quests with a lot of undead or constructs more of an option.

[Vargouille]

As a point of additional information, like players, it is possible for monsters to have more than 100% Fortification.

[Delacroix21]

As a point of additional information, like players, it is possible for monsters to have more than 100% Fortification.

Which ones? Champions only?

[Phoenix-daBard]

Which ones? Champions only?

This predates Champions by years.

[nibel]

As a point of additional information, like players, it is possible for monsters to have more than 100% Fortification.

So, can we change the Lord of Blades to actually have the Improved Fortification feat, and a huge fortification value, instead of his mere 80%?

[Cetus]

As a point of additional information, like players, it is possible for monsters to have more than 100% Fortification.

Is there a way to have a particular enemy show how much fort it has? Would be convenient.

[redoubt]

As a point of additional information, like players, it is possible for monsters to have more than 100% Fortification.

It is my understanding, and I would appreciate confirmation or correction, that mobs get fortification bypass = CR.

Assuming that is correct, will we as players now get fort bypass = character level automatically just because the mobs have it?

[brzytki]

As a point of additional information, like players, it is possible for monsters to have more than 100% Fortification.

Does it affect trash mobs as well or only bossess/champions (not taking into account DA)? I ask because for all the years i've been playing i can't recall a single non-SA-immune monster on which i wouldn't get SA even with only 10% fort bypass, apart from when orange/red DA was present, or wouldn't get a crit on a SA-immune monster.

[JOTMON]

Is there a way to have a particular enemy show how much fort it has? Would be convenient.

Perhaps an expanded info screen based on monster manual deeds.

We currently get the HP display, but there is opportunity to reveal so much more...

[Vargouille]

Does it affect trash mobs as well or only bossess/champions (not taking into account DA)? I ask because for all the years i've been playing i can't recall a single non-SA-immune monster on which i wouldn't get SA even with only 10% fort bypass, apart from when orange/red DA was present, or wouldn't get a crit on a SA-immune monster.

Excepting certain races (Undead, Constructs, for instance), very few non-boss/miniboss monsters have much or any Fortification.


It is my understanding, and I would appreciate confirmation or correction, that mobs get fortification bypass = CR.

Assuming that is correct, will we as players now get fort bypass = character level automatically just because the mobs have it?
(1) That's incorrect.
(2) Also, no.
(3) Just like most monsters don't get anything like most Enhancements or Epic Destinies. (Though we've been trying to work some of those in for certain bosses.)

[redoubt]

Excepting certain races (Undead, Constructs, for instance), very few non-boss/miniboss monsters have much or any Fortification.


(1) That's incorrect.
(2) Also, no.
(3) Just like most monsters don't get anything like most Enhancements or Epic Destinies. (Though we've been trying to work some of those in for certain bosses.)

Thank you for the correction. (I also didn't really expect to get that because the mobs have it, I was poking a little fun at your earlier post that implied the mobs were getting more fort bypass because we had it.)

Would you mind explaining the mob fort bypass? I, and several people I know, were all under the mistaken impression that mobs got fort bypass = CR. i.e. a CR 50 mob could bypass 50 fort, so to have crit immunity you need 150% fort. We have been, mistakenly, building characters around that assumption.

Thank you.

[cru121]

wiki is quoting MrCow saying that mobs with sneak attack dice only gain fort bypass equal to CR
I'd rather trust MrCow than Vargouille here.
Tho things might have changed

http://ddowiki.com/page/Fortification#Bypassing_Fortification

[Qhualor]

Excepting certain races (Undead, Constructs, for instance), very few non-boss/miniboss monsters have much or any Fortification.

so the wiki would be wrong or outdated? http://ddowiki.com/page/Fortification

In DDO, most players strive for 100% fortification around level 10. For end game epic elites, 150%+ is sometimes recommended. Most monsters don't have fortification, unless it is granted by the race/type (Undead, Constructs...). Quest and raid bosses have higher fortification, but usually not full.

[Vargouille]

so the wiki would be wrong or outdated? http://ddowiki.com/page/Fortification

In DDO, most players strive for 100% fortification around level 10. For end game epic elites, 150%+ is sometimes recommended. Most monsters don't have fortification, unless it is granted by the race/type (Undead, Constructs...). Quest and raid bosses have higher fortification, but usually not full.

I'm not sure what you are guessing is "wrong" here, but it may be outdated. This was probably written some time ago, and as levels have risen there are some bosses that have more than 100% fortification. This specifically mentions that bosses have more fortification than other monsters - this does extend to some orange named minibosses, though the wiki isn't explicit on that point.


It is my understanding, and I would appreciate confirmation or correction, that mobs get fortification bypass = CR.

wiki is quoting MrCow saying that mobs with sneak attack dice only gain fort bypass equal to CR
I'd rather trust MrCow than Vargouille here.

Would you mind explaining the mob fort bypass? I, and several people I know, were all under the mistaken impression that mobs got fort bypass = CR. i.e. a CR 50 mob could bypass 50 fort, so to have crit immunity you need 150% fort. We have been, mistakenly, building characters around that assumption.

Few monsters have any Fort Bypass. Few monsters have any sneak attack dice. My earlier answer and Mr. Cows general perception are both correct, and not at odds with each other. You can trust us both. (/saidtheusedcarsalesmen)

When "common" monsters have Sneak Attack Dice they often have some Fort Bypass as well, and that IS usually equal to their CR. These monsters are conceptually "Rogue-like" and often have similar statistics in some respects to PC Rogues -- they same monsters tend to have Evasion or Improved Evasion. Monsters occasionally have Sneak Attack or Fort Bypass without the other one as well, but those are usually exceptions (most or all of these are probably named/boss/miniboss). Those exceptions don't always follow the "CR=FortBypass" model.

[davmuzl]

Thank you for the correction. (I also didn't really expect to get that because the mobs have it, I was poking a little fun at your earlier post that implied the mobs were getting more fort bypass because we had it.)

Would you mind explaining the mob fort bypass? I, and several people I know, were all under the mistaken impression that mobs got fort bypass = CR. i.e. a CR 50 mob could bypass 50 fort, so to have crit immunity you need 150% fort. We have been, mistakenly, building characters around that assumption.

Thank you.

It's in the u13 release notes in the monster section. Only monsters with the sneak attack ability and rogue levels get fort bypass.
The archers in MoD get a buff that allows them to bypass fort.
This means if you want immunity to sneak attacks and crits in every situation you still need extra fort like you expected. I personally don't build for more than 100% fort because that is easy to get. At cap shadowscale armor allows for easy 130%+ and that's usually enough. The only situations I can think of where more fort would be nice is when tanking the fire dragons or the deathknights in the ee raids.

[Qhualor]

I'm not sure what you are guessing is "wrong" here, but it may be outdated. This was probably written some time ago, and as levels have risen there are some bosses that have more than 100% fortification. This specifically mentions that bosses have more fortification than other monsters - this does extend to some orange named minibosses, though the wiki isn't explicit on that point.

because you used the words "very few" and the wiki uses the word "most".

if wiki is outdated than hopefully with your open communication on fortification it can be updated by someone. thanks for helping to clear up confusion.

[Vargouille]

because you used the words "very few" and the wiki uses the word "most".

if wiki is outdated than hopefully with your open communication on fortification it can be updated by someone. thanks for helping to clear up confusion.

I think wiki and I agreed on what % of monsters have any fortification (taking for granted that most monsters aren't bosses or minibosses):

Wiki said: Most monsters don't have fortification
I said: very few non-boss/miniboss monsters have much or any Fortification.

[redoubt]

Few monsters have any Fort Bypass. Few monsters have any sneak attack dice. My earlier answer and Mr. Cows general perception are both correct, and not at odds with each other. You can trust us both. (/saidtheusedcarsalesmen)

When "common" monsters have Sneak Attack Dice they often have some Fort Bypass as well, and that IS usually equal to their CR. These monsters are conceptually "Rogue-like" and often have similar statistics in some respects to PC Rogues -- they same monsters tend to have Evasion or Improved Evasion. Monsters occasionally have Sneak Attack or Fort Bypass without the other one as well, but those are usually exceptions (most or all of these are probably named/boss/miniboss). Those exceptions don't always follow the "CR=FortBypass" model.

Thanks!

[Seikojin]

Excepting certain races (Undead, Constructs, for instance), very few non-boss/miniboss monsters have much or any Fortification.


(1) That's incorrect.
(2) Also, no.
(3) Just like most monsters don't get anything like most Enhancements or Epic Destinies. (Though we've been trying to work some of those in for certain bosses.)

Mmm... Double rainbow buff....

[HuneyMunster]

Mmm... Double rainbow buff....

Would be interesting if some champions get Audience with the Queen and depending on how their diplomacy check result they either transform into a kobold or start dancing.

[ToastyFred]

Wiki said: Most monsters don't have fortification
I said: very few non-boss/miniboss monsters have much or any Fortification.

Don't worry Varg, your statements have been consistent with the wiki.

Not sure why others are having difficulty understanding that.

[Qhualor]

I think wiki and I agreed on what % of monsters have any fortification (taking for granted that most monsters aren't bosses or minibosses):

Wiki said: Most monsters don't have fortification
I said: very few non-boss/miniboss monsters have much or any Fortification.

I wasn't being picky with the wording. I just read what you said as the opposite of the wiki. another reading failure on my part. thanks for clarifying.

[Eth]

Would be interesting if some champions get Audience with the Queen and depending on how their diplomacy check result they either transform into a kobold or start dancing.

You can actually proc loathing of the queen on mobs, when you have colors of the queen.
No tea for you!

[slarden]

This bug also exists on live, but in honor of the rogue pass thought it should be addressed.


I currently have=
35% thunderforge dragons edge [YOU GET THIS]
25% precision
20% upgraded flawless black dragon armor [YOU DON'T GET THIS BONUS]
15% grim precision twist
5% ship buff

For a total of 100% fort bypass. And yet I see about 15% of my critical hits being resisted (over 300 swings), so something is not stacking with something or just not working. I tested with various gears and i THINK the problem is grim precision not stacking/working.


Can I get a Dev post on if two of these fort bypasses are coded the same?

Basic rule is that feats, enhancements and epic destiny abilities stack with everything unless it says otherwise. You only get the highest gear bonus if they aren't different types.

So your fortification bypass is 80% since you only get the higher bonus from the thunderforged weapon and black dragon armor.

[ghtzxc]

Nevermind already answered. (I don't know how to delete post =\ )

[Full_Bleed]

35% thunderforge dragons edge
Quick question...

So Dragon's Edge and Black Dragon Armor bypass don't stack.

If you're a TWF with Dragon's Edge on one weapon, does it affect the second weapon? Or would the second weapon pickup the bypass from the Black Dragon Armor?

[Tinco]

Quick question...


Like for example Seeker, Fort Bypass is a global effect - so DE on the off-hand affects all attacks.

[Full_Bleed]

Like for example Seeker, Fort Bypass is a global effect - so DE on the off-hand affects all attacks.
Thanks for the info.

Is there a list of "global effects" somewhere?