Fixing Rogues: Let Sneak Attack Crit?

[BigErkyKid]

Hello forumites,

I have been trying to craft a DPS rogue with rogue abilities and this is what I found (correct me if I am wrong):

- Since paladin came around, staff specialization is just an AP inefficient way to enhance your crit profile. The same happens with knife specialization.
- Assassinate is completely overshadowed by coup de grace.

Which leaves the rogue with sneak attack as the only truly unique source of damage. While it is possible to sneak attack reliably even when soloing (via itemization and abilities), what is the real DPS addition it brings to the table? Keep in mind I am talking about epics.

Even a full rogue in shadow dancer cannot get sneak attack higher than what, 150 per attack? More?

It seems to me that even after the inclusion of melee power, sneak attack has fallen behind as a source of damage, specially considering the considerable investments it requires and its limitations.

However, what would happen if sneak attack could crit? Perhaps not necessarily with the profile as weapons, rather with a unique profile of its own, which would allow for unique boosts to it.

Just a thought, please comment.

[bartharok]

Not a bad idea actually. Especially since everything else (Not literally) crits, it would be nice if the main attack ability for rogues did the same. Dont know what the x# should be, though

[Lonnbeimnech]

Even a full rogue in shadow dancer cannot get sneak attack higher than what, 150 per attack?

Dunno but I get about that much sneak damage on a druid in LD.

[BigErkyKid]

Dunno but I get about that much sneak damage on a druid in LD.

This figure was coming from the wise men in the rogue forums. I don't claim to be an expert in rogues. Maybe you get that much damage because of the blitzing melee damage, not because of your inherent sneak attack.

[BigErkyKid]

Not a bad idea actually. Especially since everything else (Not literally) crits, it would be nice if the main attack ability for rogues did the same. Dont know what the x# should be, though

I guess it would have to be calibrated well. Particularly not front loading it too much so that many broken builds appear.

[bartharok]

I guess it would have to be calibrated well. Particularly not front loading it too much so that many broken builds appear.

I thought something like .1-.2 per level of rogue, since it doesnt matter all that much at lower level.

[Robai]

I'd like to see damage part from sneak attacks shown in combat log again (it was removed like 2-3 years ago).
Now you can see only the total damage.

[Lonnbeimnech]

This figure was coming from the wise men in the rogue forums. I don't claim to be an expert in rogues. Maybe you get that much damage because of the blitzing melee damage, not because of your inherent sneak attack.

I'm not talking about the first number (base damage) or the total damage, I'm talking about the sneak attack damage.

[BigErkyKid]

I'm not talking about the first number (base damage) or the total damage, I'm talking about the sneak attack damage.

Yes, but sneak attack damage is affected by melee power. So you could see a build with less sneak attack DICE (Edited) pull more sneak attack damage while blitzing than say a heavy rogue with more actual sneak attack dice, if that makes sense.

[General_Gronker]

Just a thought, please comment.

I don't hate the idea, except that I'm a proponent of keeping the game as close to the mothergame as possible, in which case bonus DICE don't crit (get multiplied on a critical hit), only fixed numbers. So to implement your idea, I would propose changing the actual damage from sneak attack from 1d6 per whatever, to 1d5+1 or 1d4+2. Then the fixed portion could crit normally. I think that, along with the other changes they've made to damage, would up rogue damage decently, but not make it overpowered. But that's my initial hunch, I haven't crunched any numbers or anything.

I also think they would implement it, break it, and have to to a hotfix 2 days later.

[Robai]

I have a lvl 28 Rogue (18 Rog/2 Fight), first lifer, he can easily solo most EH quests (like in the Belly of the Beast) in off destiny (like Magister etc.).
He uses Sireth, Tier 2 atm.

His dps is ok, but defenses are weak, mobs hit hard (for example, even EH Temple of Vol in necro 4 is too much pain to solo for him, I mean must play very carefully and use a lot of heals).
In groups he is doing fine for lower lvl EE quests (no agro ftw).

[krimsonrane]

Hello forumites,

I have been trying to craft a DPS rogue with rogue abilities and this is what I found (correct me if I am wrong):

- Since paladin came around, staff specialization is just an AP inefficient way to enhance your crit profile. The same happens with knife specialization.
- Assassinate is completely overshadowed by coup de grace.

Which leaves the rogue with sneak attack as the only truly unique source of damage. While it is possible to sneak attack reliably even when soloing (via itemization and abilities), what is the real DPS addition it brings to the table? Keep in mind I am talking about epics.

Even a full rogue in shadow dancer cannot get sneak attack higher than what, 150 per attack? More?

It seems to me that even after the inclusion of melee power, sneak attack has fallen behind as a source of damage, specially considering the considerable investments it requires and its limitations.

However, what would happen if sneak attack could crit? Perhaps not necessarily with the profile as weapons, rather with a unique profile of its own, which would allow for unique boosts to it.

Just a thought, please comment.

A random generated weapon can have improved vorpal. Some epic weapons can have greater or sovereign vorpal. All are better than an assassins vorpal. That right there tells you how forgotten and neglected the prestige class has become. Stuff you find laying in the streets guarded by a kobold is better at what you do than you are.


The assassin needs a good hard long look at their PRE class abilities across the board in comparison to today's field of characters. Then they need an overhaul with new items developed just for them. The assassin is a staple of d&d and shouldn't be overshadowed or out powered by any other class doing what they are specifically made to do.

if you ask me I think raising the SA dice to d20 wouldn't be a bad idea.

[BigErkyKid]

if you ask me I think raising the SA dice to d20 wouldn't be a bad idea.

I feel that the issue is that there is a distinction between abilities that increase damage in a fixed way, such as SA, and others that are either multiplier or % based. Why has SA fallen so much behind? Because now toons can easily crit 13-20/x4 or 11-20/x3. SA, I feel, was balanced to when crits were the uncommon spectacular thing, rather than about half of the time events.

Mobs have scaled with the damage output of top builds, hence those which have not been scaled according to this big numbers philosophy are just completely outdated.

My fear is that if they just give larger DICE or some set +X to the ability this will not scale well with the next iteration of power. It is the story of many enhancements and enhancement trees, filled with +X damage that has become pitiful.

Sev did a good job setting a system for scaling damage, the melee power that parallels spell power. Without spell power regular spells would be a joke, much like sneak attack. The problem is that Spell power is dramatically high (400 and 500) is not strange in many builds, but melee power is very low (not even reaching 100).

This means that abilities that were balanced in comparison to spells (SA) are now underpowered To keep working equally, they would have had to scale melee power by as much as spell power. The problem is that they managed both sources of damage inconsistently in the past. Magic damage was simply scaled up (spell power), whereas melees got crit enhancements. So if now we had melee power equivalently scaled as spell power things would be broken.

I see a few solutions to that:

1 . Scale all damage compared to base DnD equally: That is, revert some of the changes and simply add as much melee power as spell power to keep things balanced. This is unlikely.

2. Scale the forgotten abilities (SA and other cool abilities) hugely, as a multiplier of regular spell power: for instance, 400% your melee power or whatever. They basically would need to be scaled as much as the magical abilities they were balanced against originally.

3. Scale these abilities with their own crit multipliers: such as they did with other melee damage. Then use melee power as a last resort for balancing. I would favor that solution and that's what I said in the first post.

Hope my position is clear!

[the_one_dwarfforged]

i have a first life pure rogue which is dex based and uses daggers.

concerning dps: my dps is not an issue most of the time. with my rogue i have 90% fort bypass so crit/sneak resist is not really an issue.

shadow dancer:
this is actually a stronger destiny for a rogue than most people think just because of the 5% chance to remove any dr and sneak attack immunity from enemies. if you get yourself a nice amount of double strike and a haste item/pots/clickes you will attack enough times that between bluff and any imp/deception items you should be able to crit most things most of the time.

the only issues really are constructs which rely on the wrack the construct ability or this proc, and undead which afaik can only be sneaked when this ability procs.

this is a really strong raiding destiny for a rogue though as this proc will benefit the entire party. so that centered kensei who can use a blunt weapon or whatever can now attack say the truthful one without worrying about dr. my rogue can keep that proc up pretty much 100% of the time, its really really useful.

the extra sneak attack dice from this destiny and the mp are very nice actually. no complaints about my dps in this destiny.

dreadnaught:
if i can, i really prefer dreadnaught to shadow dancer with my rogue because the dps is higher (blitz works a lot better with twf than thf) and the defense is higher. i dont get the max incorp that i do from shadow dancer form, but the +30 prr is really nice and frankly the defense my rogue needs more.


the real issue with rogues:
content with undead requires you to be in shadow dancer or you are worthless.

a chunk of your dps relying on you pretty much constantly having to make your target debuffed, combined with the fairly weak defense, lack of aoe, and concentration checks on scroll healing make rogues fairly difficult and awkward to play at higher levels unless you have invested much more time and effort into yours than i have invested in mine (1 etr, no greensteel even..., scrolling displacement, lacking sp augment so havent moved points into kta yet).


slight changes that could help them:
add another scroll mastery type into assassin that stacks with the one in mechanic so that instead of healing myself for (forget how much) every 6 seconds max with a significant chance of failure any heals i do get off can last me at least 12 seconds.

lower the cooldown or in some other way adjust uncanny dodge because with the low prr of a rogue (i think mine is at 76 right now in light armor with the citw set bonus, which is sad that i feel i have to wear it even when my rogue does have an epic litany) my avoidance/concentration (i think i have 11 ranks in concentration +skill tome, con mod etc... and by avoidance i mean sd form 25% incorp, maxed dodge, NO displacement because when i have to scroll it every 30 seconds and can fail that attempt its just not a reliable buff for my occasionally used alt) are just not high enough to be able to heal myself reliably if the **** hits the fan or the situation is not very well controlled. temp dodge buff that exceeds cap would be more helpful if i could use it more. not critical though tbh when displacement clickies are available.

add some kind of aoe. this is tricky because i really really really dont like the idea of aoe on a dagger using rogue but this is the major issue for me. if i have a lot of aggro (obviously as a rogue you should try not to get mass aggro but it does happen sometimes) and the enemies arent total pushovers maintaining my health and dps at the same time just arent possible, leading to a lot of kiting while trying to scroll with small amounts of dps thrown in. so it comes down to either rogues (mine at least) need a party, or have to play at a very slow and careful pace compared other classes.


also: i have considered taking heavy armor feat or splashing 2 fighter for it because the defenses are that much of an issue without permanent displacement.

[slarden]

\Even a full rogue in shadow dancer cannot get sneak attack higher than what, 150 per attack?

This is not correct, but rogues do need some love and the devs recognize that.

The devs need to do something more creative than just add dps to rogues. I am fine that they recently added some easy-button builds that can be used by a first-lifer. It gave me some incentive to re-roll my neglected alts, level them to cap and fill out my destinies which I am working on now. It's good for the game as new players have some easy paths to be effective without grinding.

However, assassin is a very difficult class to play that requires alot of nuance - which makes it exceptionally fun to play and gratifying when you get to that point. They should keep some advanced builds in the game instead of just adding blanket dps and PRR/MRR to every build in the game.

I would like to see rogue improved with some unique clickies/abilities so that it remains an advanced build that requires more than taking the right enhancements and swinging.

[slarden]

add some kind of aoe. this is tricky because i really really really dont like the idea of aoe on a dagger using rogue but this is the major issue for me. if i have a lot of aggro (obviously as a rogue you should try not to get mass aggro but it does happen sometimes) and the enemies arent total pushovers maintaining my health and dps at the same time just arent possible, leading to a lot of kiting while trying to scroll with small amounts of dps thrown in. so it comes down to either rogues (mine at least) need a party, or have to play at a very slow and careful pace compared other classes.

also: i have considered taking heavy armor feat or splashing 2 fighter for it because the defenses are that much of an issue without permanent displacement.

Daunting roar from draconic is the best AOE available to a rogue but it takes up a precious twist spot and the twist points.

I find cocoon works good for self healing, but it requires an augment in my weapon to get a decent positive spell power (I believe it's around 300 or so). Scroll healing is difficult on EE and concentration checks even with a high concentration is no replacement for quicken. I do think rogues should have some unique ability like a form of quicken when using scrolls so they can't be disrupted. UMD used to give rogues an advantage for scroll use, but now any cha-dumping character that doesn't have UMD as a core class skill can get enough UMD for healing and raises. Providing a quicken ability for scrolls would give rogues something unique while still making it a build that requires some practice and nuance to play effectively.

You hit the nail on the head with aggro. Rogues should have some way(clickie maybe) to reduce mob aggro where the cooldown is long enough that you have to use it wisely, but not so long that you can almost never use it. Maybe like some form of mass bluff and threat reduction.

Please devs - no easy button answers like just adding blanket DPS and heavy armor proficiency.

[Annyee]

Hello forumites,

I have been trying to craft a DPS rogue with rogue abilities and this is what I found (correct me if I am wrong):

- Since paladin came around, staff specialization is just an AP inefficient way to enhance your crit profile. The same happens with knife specialization.
- Assassinate is completely overshadowed by coup de grace.

Which leaves the rogue with sneak attack as the only truly unique source of damage. While it is possible to sneak attack reliably even when soloing (via itemization and abilities), what is the real DPS addition it brings to the table? Keep in mind I am talking about epics.

Even a full rogue in shadow dancer cannot get sneak attack higher than what, 150 per attack? More?

It seems to me that even after the inclusion of melee power, sneak attack has fallen behind as a source of damage, specially considering the considerable investments it requires and its limitations.

However, what would happen if sneak attack could crit? Perhaps not necessarily with the profile as weapons, rather with a unique profile of its own, which would allow for unique boosts to it.

Just a thought, please comment.

SA IS affected y melee power.

[dualscissors]

Where LD and FotW are destinies to tear stuff up, the Shadowdancer should have spikey assassin damage and make up for the rogue's pitiful defenses to some degree with devious, shadowy elusiveness. I realize the destiny has 25% Incorporeality, chance to build up dodge, and some short invis perks. The suggesting of improving the Uncanny Dodge boost seems worth looking at.

Shadowdancer being the only place you can get some boost on your sneak attack dice is unique and brings the destiny up in the world. But the current power boost is just destroyed by any comparison with LD/FotW. Sadly this is probably a super power creep thing than it is a thing about SD being inherently awful. :-/

Maybe...?:

Epic Moment: You are a shadowy, hard to hit, lethal force; You gain the effect of Uncanny Dodge, sneak attack dice gain +1 damge per shadow charge held and sneak damage may critical hit.

[FestusHood]

Been a while since i played a character who had majority rogue levels, but is their dps when sneak attacking really that low?

What kind of base attack damage does a top flight melee character do these days BEFORE any amplification. I hear about outrageous crit numbers, but that's usually with full blitz stacks or adrenaline, helpless state, sense weakness twisted, etc.

What is a high base damage bonus? 80? 90? How much base damage does say a thunderforged greataxe add to that? About 40? At any rate i doubt that it reaches the 150 that you are attributing to sneak attack damage.

Melee power and helpless state are the big damage amplifiers for melee damage. Both of those also affect sneak attack damage.

Sure a paladin can get a better crit profile than a rogue, but it isn't like the rogue can never crit with regular attacks. A rogue isn't likely to have a damage bonus as high as a paladin, but it isn't like it's likely to be 0.

Sneak attack bypasses every form of dr as far as i can tell. It even affects things when your base hit damage is 0. It's only liability is that it is reduced by fortification, but there are many ways to bypass that which a rogue should concentrate on. Fort also reduces the criticals that pallies, etc. get, so that isn't just a rogue problem.

Berserker capstone adds how much? Maybe 50 damage per hit when it's in full swing? Forum gurus say that that much extra damage is so good, it makes barbs overpowered, or at the very least, it's so good that you can't build a barb without it. Why is an extra 50 damage per hit awesome, but an extra 150 damage per hit "pitiful?"

[dualscissors]

Berserker capstone adds how much? Maybe 50 damage per hit when it's in full swing? Forum gurus say that that much extra damage is so good, it makes barbs overpowered, or at the very least, it's so good that you can't build a barb without it. Why is an extra 50 damage per hit awesome, but an extra 150 damage per hit "pitiful?"

This comment is more of a Class+LD/FotW vs. Rogue+SD one rather than being simply a basic sneak attack comment.

I will let someone else address the specifics of why the numbers break down how they do.

With the same rogue toon in SD vs. LD/FotW I don't ever see those regular high damage numbers like 700-850-1310-1760 like I do in LD/FotW - nowhere near it, in fact.

For me that is the night-and-day, drastic power difference.

[FestusHood]

This comment is more of a Class+LD/FotW vs. Rogue+SD one rather than being simply a basic sneak attack comment.

I will let someone else address the specifics of why the numbers break down how they do.

With the same rogue toon in SD vs. LD/FotW I don't ever see those regular high damage numbers like 700-850-1310-1760 like I do in LD/FotW - nowhere near it, in fact.

For me that is the night-and-day, drastic power difference.

Those numbers you list here are critical hits right? Even with a very high crit range, those numbers still don't happen on every hit. Sneak attack does. If you throw fort into the mix it will reduce the frequency of those crits just as much as it reduces the sneak damage. Sure you don't see those super high crit numbers with a rogue, but the question is does the large sustained damage numbers from sneak attack make up for it.

If i were building a dps rogue i probably wouldn't run it in shadowdancer most of the time. The sneak damage kind of comes along on it's own. I assume a dps rogue would concentrate on the regular weapon damage.

[BigErkyKid]

If i were building a dps rogue i probably wouldn't run it in shadowdancer most of the time. The sneak damage kind of comes along on it's own. I assume a dps rogue would concentrate on the regular weapon damage.

If you want high weapon damage, do not build a rogue, it is really a bad way to go. The only real difference left to the rogue right now is sneak attack. If you do not care for it, build a bard, a barbarian, a paladin, even a centered kensei. Building a rogue for weapon damage is like trying to hammer with a knife.

Instead of watering down the rogue to yet another class with crit multipliers, why not recover the concept of sneak attack and make it actually powerful?

In DnD (at least when I still cared for their rules), a sneaking rogue was about as high melee DPS as you could get. The whole glass cannon concept. Here in DDO it is glass too, but not a cannon.

[Such755]

Sounds nice, but the problem I see with this is rogues taking way too much aggro because of that. It will significantly increase their DPS so without a proper aggro machine in the party, this might be too much.

What I would like to see more is more defense options for rogues, and a change to the Shadowdancer core tier 6 which gives useless evasion (USeless for rogues who already have evasion, that is.)

So /signed.

[Grailhawk]

I don't really think there is a need for Sneak Attack to crit. 1d6 = 3.5 Avg per hit before Damage boost and Melee Power.
21d6 = 73.5 avg damage before MP and DB for a maxed out Rogue. There really is no other ability in the game that gives
that much of a boost.

Assuming a 15-18/x4 19-20/x6 Crit profile, 110 MP, and 20% Damage Boost we get
73.5*2.1*1.2 = 185.22 damage per hit for sneak attack
So
x*2.1*1.2*2.05 = 185.22
5.166x = 185.22
x = 35.85 base damage to equal the average damage of sneak attack

So 21d6 Sneak attack ~ +36 damage on average

I don't think there is any other non multiplier class feature that's even in that ball park IMO Sneak Attack is fine.

[BigErkyKid]

I don't really think there is a need for Sneak Attack to crit. 1d6 = 3.5 Avg per hit before Damage boost and Melee Power.
21d6 = 73.5 avg damage before MP and DB for a maxed out Rogue. There really is no other ability in the game that gives
that much of a boost.

Assuming a 15-18/x4 19-20/x6 Crit profile, 110 MP, and 20% Damage Boost we get
73.5*2.1*1.2 = 185.22 damage per hit for sneak attack
So
x*2.1*1.2*2.05 = 185.22
5.166x = 185.22
x = 35.85 base damage to equal the average damage of sneak attack

So 21d6 Sneak attack ~ +36 damage on average

I don't think there is any other non multiplier class feature that's even in that ball park IMO Sneak Attack is fine.

Except that it was designed to be top damage in DnD and it is just some OK addition here. Do you see many rogue builds that shine in DPS because they focus in their main special ability, sneak attack?

I don't, it must be for a reason.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Daunting roar from draconic is the best AOE available to a rogue but it takes up a precious twist spot and the twist points.

I find cocoon works good for self healing, but it requires an augment in my weapon to get a decent positive spell power (I believe it's around 300 or so). Scroll healing is difficult on EE and concentration checks even with a high concentration is no replacement for quicken. I do think rogues should have some unique ability like a form of quicken when using scrolls so they can't be disrupted. UMD used to give rogues an advantage for scroll use, but now any cha-dumping character that doesn't have UMD as a core class skill can get enough UMD for healing and raises. Providing a quicken ability for scrolls would give rogues something unique while still making it a build that requires some practice and nuance to play effectively.

You hit the nail on the head with aggro. Rogues should have some way(clickie maybe) to reduce mob aggro where the cooldown is long enough that you have to use it wisely, but not so long that you can almost never use it. Maybe like some form of mass bluff and threat reduction.

Please devs - no easy button answers like just adding blanket DPS and heavy armor proficiency.

i forgot about daunting roar, ill try it with my rogue the next blue moon... :p

not sure if i ahve cocoon or why im not using it if i do, though i dont have an sp aug slotted but i need to get that done asap cuz kta + cocoon are important. also yea i think scroll healing should not be done in ees without cocoon because the cds for both of them are jsut too long for the amount they heal.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Been a while since i played a character who had majority rogue levels, but is their dps when sneak attacking really that low?

What kind of base attack damage does a top flight melee character do these days BEFORE any amplification. I hear about outrageous crit numbers, but that's usually with full blitz stacks or adrenaline, helpless state, sense weakness twisted, etc.

What is a high base damage bonus? 80? 90? How much base damage does say a thunderforged greataxe add to that? About 40? At any rate i doubt that it reaches the 150 that you are attributing to sneak attack damage.

Melee power and helpless state are the big damage amplifiers for melee damage. Both of those also affect sneak attack damage.

Sure a paladin can get a better crit profile than a rogue, but it isn't like the rogue can never crit with regular attacks. A rogue isn't likely to have a damage bonus as high as a paladin, but it isn't like it's likely to be 0.

Sneak attack bypasses every form of dr as far as i can tell. It even affects things when your base hit damage is 0. It's only liability is that it is reduced by fortification, but there are many ways to bypass that which a rogue should concentrate on. Fort also reduces the criticals that pallies, etc. get, so that isn't just a rogue problem.

Berserker capstone adds how much? Maybe 50 damage per hit when it's in full swing? Forum gurus say that that much extra damage is so good, it makes barbs overpowered, or at the very least, it's so good that you can't build a barb without it. Why is an extra 50 damage per hit awesome, but an extra 150 damage per hit "pitiful?"

sneak dmg is not pitiful at all, bringing it bear however is more involved than just hitting left click. due to its fall from top tier dps, it is now no longer a popular choice when you can do roughly the same ballpark dmg with better aoe more easily. trust me rogue single target sneak dps is still great.

not sure on specific numbers for +damage bonus because im doing a lot of different itrs right now on multiple builds, but with a tf weapon several hundred dmg a hit before blitz is normal.

rogue first number damage is actually not half bad due to knife spec. only downside is the weak base dice, and if you go dex+kta or even full ****** int your dmg mod is still lower than a regular melees.

constructs and undead are generally immune to sneak attacks, and you must be have wracking strike (constructs) or be in shadow dancer (the lvl 5 core i think, forget the name) to be able to bypass that immunity. fort though is not an issue by any stretch of the imagination.

apples and oranges.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Those numbers you list here are critical hits right? Even with a very high crit range, those numbers still don't happen on every hit. Sneak attack does. If you throw fort into the mix it will reduce the frequency of those crits just as much as it reduces the sneak damage. Sure you don't see those super high crit numbers with a rogue, but the question is does the large sustained damage numbers from sneak attack make up for it.

If i were building a dps rogue i probably wouldn't run it in shadowdancer most of the time. The sneak damage kind of comes along on it's own. I assume a dps rogue would concentrate on the regular weapon damage.

sneak attack comes easily from rogue levels and enhancements and gear. done deal, almost no effort (just acquiring gear). the only way to actually invest in your characters dps as a rogue is in the first number damage. which is a lot easier now with dex/int to hit, kta, knife spec, and lack of prereqs for oc.

in shadow dancer against a non helpless enemy my regular attacks can crit for at least 300, i really dont remember if they can go higher or if they are lower but 300 sounds about right. and with a solid crit range and twf, i crit a lot. obviously critting on a failed executioners strike or other +[w] attack or against a helpless enemy and the numbers can get much higher. and in dreadnaught the crits against helpless enemies are huge because of combat brute + advancing blows.

also if people say that because they can crit for 12k in one hit with a greataxe doesnt mean its the most dps...falcs are still better in almost all cases.

[Ayseifn]

I don't really think there is a need for Sneak Attack to crit. 1d6 = 3.5 Avg per hit before Damage boost and Melee Power.
21d6 = 73.5 avg damage before MP and DB for a maxed out Rogue. There really is no other ability in the game that gives
that much of a boost.

Assuming a 15-18/x4 19-20/x6 Crit profile, 110 MP, and 20% Damage Boost we get
73.5*2.1*1.2 = 185.22 damage per hit for sneak attack
So
x*2.1*1.2*2.05 = 185.22
5.166x = 185.22
x = 35.85 base damage to equal the average damage of sneak attack

So 21d6 Sneak attack ~ +36 damage on average

I don't think there is any other non multiplier class feature that's even in that ball park IMO Sneak Attack is fine.

Run the numbers on paladins light damage, add in the better crit profile and more melee power and it's in the ballpark.

[FestusHood]

If you want high weapon damage, do not build a rogue, it is really a bad way to go. The only real difference left to the rogue right now is sneak attack. If you do not care for it, build a bard, a barbarian, a paladin, even a centered kensei. Building a rogue for weapon damage is like trying to hammer with a knife.

Instead of watering down the rogue to yet another class with crit multipliers, why not recover the concept of sneak attack and make it actually powerful?

In DnD (at least when I still cared for their rules), a sneaking rogue was about as high melee DPS as you could get. The whole glass cannon concept. Here in DDO it is glass too, but not a cannon.

Don't rogues already have enhancements to their critical profiles from the trees? Don't they give their favored weapons the 18-20 x 3 crit profile which seems to be the standard for these types of things? Then special weapons with abnormal crit profiles can get even better. Unfortunately, the only rogue weapons i know that have abnormal crit profiles are staves. Are there any enhanced critical profile daggers or kukris in the game?

I assume that a dps based rogue, using one of their favored weapons will still be behind a vanguard or what have you. The question is by how much? I have a hard time believing they are behind by a greater amount than is compensated by sneak attack damage.

Last time i messed with rogue levels it was a mix with a ranger. With exposing strike, a radiance weapon, and improved deception, it's no exaggeration to say i was sneak attacking non blind immune mobs 90% of the time. That's with absolutely no attention payed to agro management on my part.

[FestusHood]

constructs and undead are generally immune to sneak attacks, and you must be have wracking strike (constructs) or be in shadow dancer (the lvl 5 core i think, forget the name) to be able to bypass that immunity. fort though is not an issue by any stretch of the imagination.


Seems to me i crit undeads and constructs all the time without having either one of those things. Are there situations where you can crit but not sneak attack? I always assumed that they were coded with the same restrictions.

For the record, you are preaching to the choir. I also think that rogue sneak attack damage is fine as is.

[Ra'ehd]

iirc with fort bypass, you can crit things not normally crit-able, but not sneak attack. it does require those things (shadowdancer cap) to sneak attack other things

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Seems to me i crit undeads and constructs all the time without having either one of those things. Are there situations where you can crit but not sneak attack? I always assumed that they were coded with the same restrictions.

For the record, you are preaching to the quire. I also think that rogue sneak attack damage is fine as is.

undead have 100% fort + sneak immunity.

fort bypass reduces how many of your crits are resisted, and assuming your have proced vulnerability to sneak dmg with the shadow dancer passive (removes all dr, removes invulnerability to sneak)
reduces how many of your sneak attacks are resisted (by fort).

if you have sneak dmg and arent in shadow dancer and no one in your party is in shadow dancer and you are attacking undead, you may as well swap out your sneak attack items because it isnt happening.

afaik there is no such thing as actual immunity to crits in ddo, just misinformation and ignorance.

[Grailhawk]

Run the numbers on paladins light damage, add in the better crit profile and more melee power and it's in the ballpark.

Your taking 3 class features better crit profile, Melee Power, and light damage to try and get in the same ball park as one class feature? Those three combined actually do out preform Sneak Attack.

I'm not saying Rogues don't need help (they need more MP) I'm just saying that Sneak Attack is not the issue and doesn't need any real changes.

[Oxarhamar]

If you want high weapon damage, do not build a rogue, it is really a bad way to go. The only real difference left to the rogue right now is sneak attack. If you do not care for it, build a bard, a barbarian, a paladin, even a centered kensei. Building a rogue for weapon damage is like trying to hammer with a knife.

Instead of watering down the rogue to yet another class with crit multipliers, why not recover the concept of sneak attack and make it actually powerful?

In DnD (at least when I still cared for their rules), a sneaking rogue was about as high melee DPS as you could get. The whole glass cannon concept. Here in DDO it is glass too, but not a cannon.


You can get plenty of weapon damage from a well built Rogue running in a high DPS destiny PLUS sneak attack.

I'd rather assassinate functioning much better that it does currently.


With that said I wouldn't be against sneak attack dice being rolled into base damage much like the sneak attack damage from items so it could critical.

[FestusHood]

You can get plenty of weapon damage from a well built Rogue running in a high DPS destiny PLUS sneak attack.

I'd rather assassinate functioning much better that it does currently.


With that said I wouldn't be against sneak attack dice being rolled into base damage much like the sneak attack damage from items so it could critical.

I don't think sneak damage from items is currently added into base damage. I have a character who's only source of sneak damage is the +5 from a stalker ring, and that always appears by itself after the base damage. Hope i'm not misunderstanding what you are saying here.

[BigErkyKid]

Don't rogues already have enhancements to their critical profiles from the trees? Don't they give their favored weapons the 18-20 x 3 crit profile which seems to be the standard for these types of things? Then special weapons with abnormal crit profiles can get even better. Unfortunately, the only rogue weapons i know that have abnormal crit profiles are staves. Are there any enhanced critical profile daggers or kukris in the game?

I assume that a dps based rogue, using one of their favored weapons will still be behind a vanguard or what have you. The question is by how much? I have a hard time believing they are behind by a greater amount than is compensated by sneak attack damage.

Last time i messed with rogue levels it was a mix with a ranger. With exposing strike, a radiance weapon, and improved deception, it's no exaggeration to say i was sneak attacking non blind immune mobs 90% of the time. That's with absolutely no attention payed to agro management on my part.

The point is that once upon a time sneak attack was a MAJOR player in the DPS race. Now no one will argue that it isn't more than a side addition.

The defining DPS trait of rogues is sneak attack (assassinate just being an extension of the concept), so I think that any revamp of rogues has to come through making sneak attack relevant again.

I really wouldn't want another swash situation, where bards are mostly OP because they gave them some generic ability that does not have to do particularly with bards.

[Oxarhamar]

I don't think sneak damage from items is currently added into base damage. I have a character who's only source of sneak damage is the +5 from a stalker ring, and that always appears by itself after the base damage. Hope i'm not misunderstanding what you are saying here.

Sneak attack items generally roll into base damage, deception, improved deception, tharns goggles.

[Grailhawk]

Sneak attack items generally roll into base damage, deception, improved deception, tharns goggles.

No there is a separate number like he said, and more over SA from items gets rolled into SA from enh or class if you have any, SA is it's own number in the damage string.

[Oxarhamar]

No there is a separate number like he said, and more over SA from items gets rolled into SA from enh or class if you have any, SA is it's own number in the damage string.

http://i60.tinypic.com/24do4gm.jpg

feel free to point out the separately added sneak attack in the damage string (note the increased base damage on sneak attacks)

[Dreppo]

http://i60.tinypic.com/24do4gm.jpg

feel free to point out the separately added sneak attack in the damage string (note the increased base damage on sneak attacks)

In the floaty text you see above your character's head when fighting, unless you've configured in the options to merge everything into one number, then different sources of damage will appear as different numbers. The first number is the base damage, the second number is the sneak attack damage, and after that are other damage effects.

The combat log, as you've noted, merges base damage and sneak attack damage into one number.

[Oxarhamar]

In the floaty text you see above your character's head when fighting, unless you've configured in the options to merge everything into one number, then different sources of damage will appear as different numbers. The first number is the base damage, the second number is the sneak attack damage, and after that are other damage effects.

The combat log, as you've noted, merges base damage and sneak attack damage into one number.

ah I see the confusion then

[Humperdink]

Sometimes I find pictures help. :) To illustrate the point, the last line of the combat log says "You sneak attack bear for 100 points..." while the floaty text line at the bottom reads 27 + 73. (Base dmg + sneak attack dmg).

http://i62.tinypic.com/o6zec7.jpg