Worst raid in DDO: "Temple of the Deathwyrm"

[Wanesa]

... at least with my connection. I gave up in jumping puzzle. I saw so much jumping glitches... until today, it was Coal quest, but TotD is much much worse.

I don't really understand why the server and client can calculate different landing position after the jump. There are no monsters, no moving parts, just static scenery!

Why my toon first catch the on platform and after one or two seconds she stays below it? Why hitting space button cause double jump followed by teleportation to ground?

[moo_cow]

One of my favorite raids.

[Thalone]

Worse than Caught in the Web? Erm...

There are three possible puzzles at that stage: jump, archives, and traps. Jump is the "easiest" in that there's nothing there to oppose you (traps) and doesn't require any particular character stats to do (archives needs dwarf or INT to read the clues, though you can die and revive if you guess the portal orders wrong).

In your instance, if you have issues doing jump, you can die in the light beams and someone versed in the puzzle can carry your stone through and raise you past the part where your connection is giving you issues. If you have wing abilities (Monk/FvS/Exalted Angel/Cannith boots), the puzzle's pretty trivial even with lag. I had to get carried through as a soulstone myself my first time, though at this point I know how to run across the knobs and don't need wing help.

[Wanesa]

Worse than Caught in the Web? Erm...

CitW is at least playable. You don't need to kill self to cheat the game because of glitches. You don't understand, i cannot find the fun while fighting with jump glitches. Someone probably don't see them with low latency connection. But I am from the Europe and my connection can have often more then 500ms latency.

(I still think, that this should not depend on connection because client should be able to calculate movement and jumping offline)

[Ayseifn]

I sit at around 300ms latency and jumping puzzles are not fun, the steam jets in Spies and The Pit are the worst offenders for this but Deathwyrm, Abbot and Coal aren't all that fun either.

Some days the latency is a lot higher and those quests become infuriating, I get that collisions in online games are really hard to solve but I'd love for some attention being placed here.

[Highlander]

CitW is at least playable. You don't need to kill self to cheat the game because of glitches. You don't understand, i cannot find the fun while fighting with jump glitches. Someone probably don't see them with low latency connection. But I am from the Europe and my connection can have often more then 500ms latency.

(I still think, that this should not depend on connection because client should be able to calculate movement and jumping offline)

I feel your pain too Wanesa.
I hate the Mario jumping puzzles because of my latency as well.
I always try to do another option, but you have to go with the group consensus.

[Munkenmo]

I sit at around 300ms latency and jumping puzzles are not fun, the steam jets in Spies and The Pit

I feel your pain there (NZ is a long way from the servers), the hitching that occurs at steam jets is the main reason why I don't run those quests despite the great exp.

[Kaytis]

.I don't really understand why the server and client can calculate different landing position after the jump. There are no monsters, no moving parts, just static scenery!

This is actually pretty easy to understand. Basically, to keep the game smooth and responsive, the client is allowed to go ahead and render the user action immediately. The user action is also relayed to the server. However, due to "lag" it's possible that the server did not get your actions and therefore calculates you in a different location than the client has shown you. The important part is this: the server wins. It is canonical. If it believes you are in a different place, then the client must redraw you in that place at the next opportunity. The client is only a reflection of the server state and must always reflect it accurately, even if that means drawing you some place you did not expect. This is the fundamental cause of the rubber-banding that accompanies most lag. The client is correcting the model because the server never received the movement that the client already drew.

[Qezuzu]

I'd take laggy Deathwyrm over a lag-free CitW anyway. Legitimately the worst designed raid and quest in general.

[mikarddo]

CitW is at least playable. You don't need to kill self to cheat the game because of glitches. You don't understand, i cannot find the fun while fighting with jump glitches. Someone probably don't see them with low latency connection. But I am from the Europe and my connection can have often more then 500ms latency.

(I still think, that this should not depend on connection because client should be able to calculate movement and jumping offline)

I am from Europe as well (Denmark) and my latency is far better than 500ms. Try finding out if its your own setup or the provider thats delaying things and then act upon that. You should have atleast below 200ms and probably by a good margin. You could even post the details (provider, router, wireless or cabel, traceroute etc) and someone might be able to give good advice.

[janave]

You can tell people to do traps -or- maze instead of the jump (whatever is available). However, the performance in the raid is horrid, and most players cant stomach the mirror part, so out of 10 joiners 7-8 will catch you up when you are at the last portal(the raid locking one).

I have about 1/3rd the game performance in Wyrm raid compared to the next lowest performer, that says something. It often gets under 20fps which is borderline playable, add some server side lag and you may as well go afk.

[Wipey]

Farm Cannith boots for every toon without Wings or Abundant Step.
I can't ever do the Jump room "regular" way. Air jets in Spies, Pit, running through trap in Cry or even the "jump" in Rainbow are just so frustrating sometimes.
In addition to ladder hitching or boxes "climbing" problems.

It's maybe hard to explain to someone that doesn't experience it, it's like you are never at the place where you think you are, have to press keys differently than usual, for different duration. It's like trying to play with your monitor turned off.

So save yourself from frustration and farm the boots.

[Alternative]

Temple of Deathwyrm, on one hand it has a great theme and feel to it, but mechanically is about as fun as mining coal. Whoever designed it must have thought people won't run it more than 10 times.

[Eth]

500ms latency? I feel for you OP, precise jumping with 500ms is next to impossible. I run around with 120ms and always have a delayed jump even with that, but I got used to it.
With 500ms I can't really imagine doing jumps though (maybe if you get really used to it?).

Any chance you can get a better ISP? A connection from Europe should be really better than that.

[FestusHood]

Farm Cannith boots for every toon without Wings or Abundant Step.
I can't ever do the Jump room "regular" way. Air jets in Spies, Pit, running through trap in Cry or even the "jump" in Rainbow are just so frustrating sometimes.
In addition to ladder hitching or boxes "climbing" problems.

It's maybe hard to explain to someone that doesn't experience it, it's like you are never at the place where you think you are, have to press keys differently than usual, for different duration. It's like trying to play with your monitor turned off.

So save yourself from frustration and farm the boots.

I have all of those same glitches, and i consistently have a latency in the 70's. It ain't the latency. I've seen people refer to it as a positioning argument, and it's pretty obvious that's what it is. It looks to me to be more or less the same thing that is happening with the ladder glitch.

I don't think i have ever actually missed a jump in Rainbow in the Dark, but i die about 50% of the time, just because in the alternate universe it turns out i jumped 6 feet farther than it ever looked like i did.

Landing on the lights in the shroud puzzles is another place. No, really, i do know how to do this, just give me a second.

You see a lot of these little glitches jumping on the Risia ramps in the harbor as well. What makes it even more frustrating is that it is not consistent. I can jump exactly the same way twice in a row, and one time it will glitch and the other time it will not. If it was at least consistent you could adjust for it.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Last time I ran this raid I had ~14,000 latency during the shadow phase of the end fight. It was impossible to to anything, obviously. Cleared up when the rest of the party finished, so I still managed to loot the chest.

[slarden]

I think Temple is a great raid - the only mistake they made was too many mirror puzzles. They should instead of 2 random puzzle rooms to get by.

If the jump room is available there is always one other option that is usually selected over the jump room on Sarlona. Of course a few people will jump anyhow because it's faster.

If the group is only doing jump room - run into a beam and die so someone can carry your soul stone.

The end part of Temple of Deathwyrm is fantastic except for the lag issues.

[Eryhn]

my fav raid atm, there still are some minor issues lagwise but from my last couple of runs I got the gist that whaetever got changed recently improved the situation in this one.

I can second the irregularity and inocnsistency of jumps accuracy glitches from harbor, too, but I wouldnt entirely put that past connectivity issues on my own end as I route over the pond from Europe. maybe some jitter, maybe the occasional packet lost even if the net graph shows 0.0 green...


that being said I cannot understand why people run the jump room. imho, red and green or portals over jump, if the traproom aint up. I appreciate for some people its extremely easy, but it is very rare that an eintire party makes it through jump room smoothly and speedily, usually you end up waiting longer than another route would have taken, unless folks who know they cant do it go and beamdie to be carried from the getgo (I do that too if the party heaves this pain upon me)

as for puzzles, I kinda like the mirror setting while being blasted and attacked by trash, but yeah, 6 times is a bit over the top, 1 mirror puzzle per outside area phase rather than 2 each would have done. otherwise, great fun raid.

[Steelstar]

I have about 1/3rd the game performance in Wyrm raid compared to the next lowest performer, that says something. It often gets under 20fps which is borderline playable, add some server side lag and you may as well go afk.

We've been doing a lot of work in the last few Updates/Patches to try and address the performance issues in Deathwyrm, and (for most players) the changes seem to have had a positive impact so far.

A fix coming in the next patch should improve performance on the client side, especially in the end fight.

Also, if you're running DirectX10 or 11 and experiencing low framerates, consider dropping to DirectX9 in Graphics Settings, it should help.

[Wizza]

We've been doing a lot of work in the last few Updates/Patches to try and address the performance issues in Deathwyrm, and (for most players) the changes seem to have had a positive impact so far.

A fix coming in the next patch should improve performance on the client side, especially in the end fight.

Also, if you're running DirectX10 or 11 and experiencing low framerates, consider dropping to DirectX9 in Graphics Settings, it should help.

Again, why are you working on ONE fix at the time?

There are a number of issues in this raid:

1) LAG
2) Gravity room's is bugged when you turn gravity off. Sounds go off, ceiling becomes messed up, you can't see where you are going.
3) Once you defeat the end boss, trash won't disappear. On EE, it's a huge issue, since killing 5 Kjuldjargs and the rest of the trash can cause teams to use resources that otherwise would not have been wasted.

4) There is still, to me, the issue that only the gravity room gives an extra chest. WHY? It makes no sense to me. Red and Green light is FAR more difficult than it and Combat training is also more difficult than gravity.

[Rys]

Someone probably don't see them with low latency connection. But I am from the Europe and my connection can have often more then 500ms latency.


From asking around, people from Europe have permanent ~150 ms, me included.

If it goes above that number, it's because my personal connection sucks (and it does). Having youtube playlist in the background or downloading Hello Kitty makes it generally worse.

[Wizza]

From asking around, people from Europe have permanent ~150 ms, me included.

If it goes above that number, it's because my personal connection sucks (and it does). Having youtube playlist in the background or downloading Hello Kitty makes it generally worse.

Downloading? You already have it on your computer :P

[Rys]

Downloading? You already have it on your computer :P

Hello Kitty 2.0

[Wizza]

Hello Kitty 2.0

Oh my god.

Afk downloading

[slarden]

We've been doing a lot of work in the last few Updates/Patches to try and address the performance issues in Deathwyrm, and (for most players) the changes seem to have had a positive impact so far.

A fix coming in the next patch should improve performance on the client side, especially in the end fight.

Also, if you're running DirectX10 or 11 and experiencing low framerates, consider dropping to DirectX9 in Graphics Settings, it should help.

I appreciate the work that's been done. Whenever I get lag in deathwyrm the entire party gets lag, but unfortunately the enemies do not. I am skeptical that it's a client-side issues, although I think the people that say they have lag all the time are having client-side issues because I only have lag in a few raids and very rarely other places.

With that said I did just reset from Directx11 to Directx9 and will see if it helps with the deathwyrm lag issues.

[janave]

From asking around, people from Europe have permanent ~150 ms, me included.


for me its avg: ~120-130ms, europe too, and my connection is below average, 2kilometers away its double for the same money as my lousy ISP refuses to build better lines for the 4-5 streets, which is a bit detached from their main cover zone.

[IronClan]

Again, why are you working on ONE fix at the time?

There are a number of issues in this raid:

1) LAG
2) Gravity room's is bugged when you turn gravity off. Sounds go off, ceiling becomes messed up, you can't see where you are going.
3) Once you defeat the end boss, trash won't disappear. On EE, it's a huge issue, since killing 5 Kjuldjargs and the rest of the trash can cause teams to use resources that otherwise would not have been wasted.

4) There is still, to me, the issue that only the gravity room gives an extra chest. WHY? It makes no sense to me. Red and Green light is FAR more difficult than it and Combat training is also more difficult than gravity.

Why do you assume they are working on only one thing? as opposed to only talking about one thing that is specific to this thread or ready to be deployed? Or releasing the one thing they were able to finish in time for the next patch or update? It's how game development works. They might be WORKING on a dozen things but not able to talk about them because A) uninformed players (99% of them) have no idea how workflow functions. B) some of the fixes might not be ready and uninformed players (99% of them) will take anything they talk about to be a "Promise" and C) other fixes might not actually succeed in doing what they hoped or might make things work worse upon testing them and uninformed players (you know) think that Game development is a science of simple structural constructs (like databases) instead of an art with a complexity that approaches organic systems.

1. Deathworm doesn't lag for everyone, I have 60+ completions and only 1 failed due to lag, I've seen a few lag snaps but none of the others caused a wipe, so not everyone is getting the same thing at the same intensity.
2. I've never seen or heard anyone else experience this bug so you might want to report it instead of thinking everyone already has, is might be something that only people with X audio driver and Y video driver experience.
3. I've always assumed this was by design. Not sure why trash mobs disappear the moment the boss is gone, or for that matter why spells that have a persistent duration should disappear when you kill the caster mob, neither of these are D&D like mechanisms and I am okay with this strange expectation being reversed (or at least I am not going to develop an expectation of things unnaturally vanishing the moment the boss drops like in FoT).
4. I would assume this is because gravity was believed to take longer than the others, and it usually does in PUG's it's almost always the slowest option, no one will touch Red Light Green light in PUG's generally but when lead well with experienced players redlight greenlight is a breeze... unless you're doing Gravity with a raid full of guildies who don't even need to be told what color they are going to because you've got it down to a meta-gamed science. I don't know why they didn't at least make the puzzles a LITTLE variable.

BTW Deathwrym is a great raid IMO, right up there with Abbot, Titan and Von in my subjective book of best raids. Those being how a raid should work, MOD IMO considering no one ever runs CITW any more is the worst raid in the game... pure arena beat downs with mob spam in place of actual difficulty, worst than that though, it was virtually designed to be done 20 per night with raid timers, inelegant blind tiling mechanic (bunny jump and hope you don't die under a tile (DDO version of go Die in a fire = go die under a tile). What a sad follow up to one of the greatest raids in the game...

[Oxarhamar]

Performance issues aside.

Deathwyrm is the best of the 3 we got last year.


I have seen lag issues there but, not as often as I read about them in the forums.

[slarden]

double

[axel15810]

One of my favorite raids.

Once you get past the mirror puzzles it is one of my favorite raids.

Before you get done with the mirror puzzles it is clearly my least favorite raid.

[Seikojin]

We've been doing a lot of work in the last few Updates/Patches to try and address the performance issues in Deathwyrm, and (for most players) the changes seem to have had a positive impact so far.

A fix coming in the next patch should improve performance on the client side, especially in the end fight.

Also, if you're running DirectX10 or 11 and experiencing low framerates, consider dropping to DirectX9 in Graphics Settings, it should help.

That being said, anyone with 3-400 ms latency should expect some problems.

Those with low latency but still have issues, you may be experiencing a bug (where the instance server is having issues (lots of fixes going on there)), or your end may be suffering where your machine is not the best it can be for those intense raids.

[blerkington]

Hi,

I greatly prefer Deathwyrm to CITW. CITW is a truly awful raid, by far the worst in DDO in my opinion.

With my connection latency usually sitting around 280ms, the jump room can be a little trying sometimes, but I'm used to it now. It usually only means a couple of tries for that final ledge to the right of the portal, for me anyway.

The lag in Deathwyrm is still atrocious, and we had a full group lag-wipe as recently as a day ago. It was just after we reached the dragon, and it persisted for a couple of minutes even after everyone was dead.

I agree with the other posters here who think that it's unacceptable that one of our endgame raids is still this broken, whatever the technical reasons for it are. I really wish the apologists in the community would just stop pretending that this is somehow fine.

Thanks.

[kmoustakas]

The end part is really cool. The do puzzles repeatedly is what's annoying - so I always and only join groups in progress. Kinda like no one ever joins lob/ma groups unless they say in the lfm 'elevator up'

[Brendael]

My ones and zeroes also need to cross the Atlantic so I have terrible lag and that jumping puzzle is literally impossible. There are work arounds such as riding the electric chair and taking other routes though so it is ok.

Possibly the most infuriating raid is that other Fire Dragon raid on EH, EE. By the time your client gets around to drawing that stupid circle under your feet it is too late. You're fried. Now that drives me nuts. Worst game play mechanic ever.

[janave]

The end part is really cool. The do puzzles repeatedly is what's annoying - so I always and only join groups in progress. Kinda like no one ever joins lob/ma groups unless they say in the lfm 'elevator up'

I agree with this, it is the prepare wilderness all over again, and we've seen how that turned out.

Accessibility is super important for raids for longevity, look at Titan, now that its not even a 5k favor must have, it will go back to the abyss and may never see a come back. Similarly, every guy i asked recently to do heroic Abbot was either flat disinterested or not flagged, most of them not flagged, that i can fully understand due to the "last piece is just not dropping" syndrome.

[Braegan]

I think Temple is a great raid - the only mistake they made was too many mirror puzzles. They should instead of 2 random puzzle rooms to get by.

.

The end part of Temple of Deathwyrm is fantastic except for the lag issues.


Performance issues aside.

Deathwyrm is the best of the 3 we got last year.


I have seen lag issues there but, not as often as I read about them in the forums.

I agree with both of these.

[mikarddo]

My ones and zeroes also need to cross the Atlantic so I have terrible lag and that jumping puzzle is literally impossible. There are work arounds such as riding the electric chair and taking other routes though so it is ok.

Possibly the most infuriating raid is that other Fire Dragon raid on EH, EE. By the time your client gets around to drawing that stupid circle under your feet it is too late. You're fried. Now that drives me nuts. Worst game play mechanic ever.

I play both raids with no such issues from Europe. The game isnt the culprit here nor is the Atlantic, your choice of isp or personal setup is.

[Eth]

Possibly the most infuriating raid is that other Fire Dragon raid on EH, EE. By the time your client gets around to drawing that stupid circle under your feet it is too late. You're fried. Now that drives me nuts. Worst game play mechanic ever.

Wow, your lag must be really bad if you get game mechanics that were removed 2 updates ago. Seems like your client is several months behind.
Are you using IP over Avian Carriers by any chance?

[Brendael]

Wow, your lag must be really bad if you get game mechanics that were removed 2 updates ago. Seems like your client is several months behind.
Are you using IP over Avian Carriers by any chance?

Hey, the last time I ran it on EH I got the red circle of death. Since then I've been running EN and haven't gotten them. I assumed the circle of doom was a difficulty issue.


I play both raids with no such issues from Europe. The game isnt the culprit here nor is the Atlantic, your choice of isp or personal setup is.

Go try to be clever somewhere else, dimwit. Who said I played from Europe? I play from the Southern tip of Africa so my traffic is routed the entire length of the continent via the WACS to an exchange in Western Europe at which point it probably joins your little ones and zeroes after travelling an extra 15,000km.

[Eth]

Hey, the last time I ran it on EH I got the red circle of death. Since then I've been running EN and haven't gotten them. I assumed the circle of doom was a difficulty issue.


The circles have been removed from all difficulties since U22.
Sadly we never got a word on why, AFAIK. I would assume it was lag related.

[Wizza]

That's all well and good that the Raid is a year old.

Now go read the notes from each Patch, hot fix, & update since then. You'll find that the lag in Deathwyrm has been nerfed more than once to reduce lag but, ultimately the Dev's can't stop all other projects to work on Deathwyrm alone.

Currently the Engineers are working on lag in general which should help Deathwyrm by default.

Thanks for making my point.

Each patch has 1 or 2 small fixes. By the end of the 2020 we might have a Raid without bugs and lags, hooray!

[Eth]

Thanks for making my point.

Each patch has 1 or 2 small fixes. By the end of the 2020 we might have a Raid without bugs and lags, hooray!

1 year is rather quick, considering that Titan took them more than 8 years.

[mikarddo]

Go try to be clever somewhere else, dimwit. Who said I played from Europe? I play from the Southern tip of Africa so my traffic is routed the entire length of the continent via the WACS to an exchange in Western Europe at which point it probably joins your little ones and zeroes after travelling an extra 15,000km.

No need to resort to name calling. If you had wanted us to know your link was that long you could have posted that in the first place rather than simply "also across the Atlantic".

[Wizza]

1 year is rather quick, considering that Titan took them more than 8 years.

And Citw 3 years and still with Raid breaking bugs

Learning from past mistakes - Turbine edition

[Rys]

And Citw 3 years and still with Raid breaking bugs

Learning from past mistakes - Turbine edition

Tiles in Abbot are still bugged as well :D But at least he doesn't eat our weapons anymore.

[Brendael]

No need to resort to name calling. If you had wanted us to know your link was that long you could have posted that in the first place rather than simply "also across the Atlantic".

The whole : "Don't blame Turbine it is all your fault!" thing gets really grating. Make the assumption that people aren't idiots when you talk to them. That they understand what latency is and how it affects them. It facilitates much more productive discussion.

[Eth]

Tiles in Abbot are still bugged as well :D But at least he doesn't eat our weapons anymore.

I was pleasantly surprised we didn't get any 'The Epic Abbot ate my Thunderforged' when U23 hit.

[Wizza]

I was pleasantly surprised we didn't get any 'The Epic Abbot ate my Thunderforged' when U23 hit.

I just let people die when encased. I'm afraid of throwing my weapons :p

[Eth]

I just let people die when encased. I'm afraid of throwing my weapons :p

I still have the habit to always swap to a trash weapon first after using a thrower (or boulders for that matter), before I swap back to my main weapon set.

[Rys]

I just let Rys die when encased.

ftfy

But I kinda have a feeling it's not because of the fear of losing your weapon.

[Wizza]

ftfy

But I kinda have a feeling it's not because of the fear of losing your weapon.

Ahem, nop, it's just the fear of losing my weapons. I never laugh when you die, you know that

[Annyee]

Red Light/Green Light was unplayable last few times I tried the room. The entire party wiped at the same exact time. Messed up part is you can not move and still wipe. There are some real problems with that room.

[mikarddo]

The whole : "Don't blame Turbine it is all your fault!" thing gets really grating. Make the assumption that people aren't idiots when you talk to them. That they understand what latency is and how it affects them. It facilitates much more productive discussion.

1) In a thread where several people are debating the connections from Europe you post "also across the Atlantic". There is no reason I should assume you are not in Europe based on that. Had you included more info or set your location in your forum profile it would have been another matter.
2) Name calling isnt the answer and certainly does not facilitate a productive discussion - which we agree would be best.
3) Living in South Africa and getting the associated latency *is* your "fault" - blaming Turbine for that is not reasonable. Except for asking them to place a server closer to you (not reasonable) there really isnt anything they can do about it.
4) Wanting a game that does not depend on latency at all isnt reasonable as that would cut down on interesting gameplay too much.
5) Wanting the client to take over and control where you are will be exploited hard (I saw than in EQ1 early on when people would cut their connection for a few seconds to run past alot of hostilies and then magically appear on the other side when they reconnected).
Note: I am not saying you asked for 4 or 5.

I certainly agree with blaming Turbine where its reasonable and I do my fair share of that - but it does get really grating when people want to blame Turbine for everything reasonable or not - and blaming Turbine for latency isnt reasonable at all.

Anyway, I dont mind disagreeing but kindly refrain from name calling - thats not conductive to a productive envirronment and only hurts the game worse.