For Discussion: Difficulty Levels ONLY Change Difficulty of Quests

[HAL]

First, please keep the discussion on-topic and avoid insulting those who disagree with or play differently than you.

There has been a lot of concern that the introduction of a new Difficulty Level would just produce more power creep if it also had better rewards. Some people proposed that a new Difficulty Level should not have better rewards in order to combat this issue. Then I read this post (emphasis mine):


With 22 lives, epic gear, and supreme +6 tome, I was rather hoping to be a champion of sorts myself. Sadly, a kobold (which has 1d4 HP in the paper and pen version of AD&D) champion has 40 times as many hit points than I will ever have and hits harder than my "epic" weapons. The recurring theme on these messages is that people want more difficulty and those of us that do not are "entitled". I can make the same argument in reverse, those who claim the quests are too easy feel "entitled" to making everyone else suffer for not having their impeccable gear, the perfect build, or the good fortune to have a steady group. In truth, however, it is not about entitlement, its about wanting to enjoy the game (for both sides of the argument). I have enjoyed the game for six years, and easily spent $7k on it. I am retired, and therefore able to play between 6-12 hours a day. I prefer running in a group, but that has become very difficult to find for many quests as everyone seems concerned with Bravery Bonuses, and now continues with the exclusionary rules governing champion remnants. The group espousing the argument that if the game is too difficult for some to handle they should play on a lower difficulty setting has some merit. That is, of course, why DDO comes with variations in difficulty. I have no problem with this approach, simply make the favor, experience, and loot the same across the board, regardless of the difficulty setting and that approach is fine. Then, folks can set the difficulty to their enjoyment level rather than to collect rewards for it, and the question of Champions become less important.

This seems to me to be the ideal solution: every difficulty level has the exact same Favor, XP and Loot. Single person RPGs do it, why not DDO? If people truly enjoy a challenge, let them choose a more challenging level simply for the enjoyment. It would also have the perk of letting the uber players play by themselves as there would no longer be any incentive to play a harder difficulty but the challenge itself.

I would remove Casual or have it give no Favor, XP or Loot.

[Oxarhamar]

Maker 5k favor time an auto grant for running enough quests on normal. Yeah that will fly.

[Failedlegend]

I would remove Casual or have it give no Favor, XP or Loot.

Why?

[HAL]

Why?

Because Casual is a "throw-away" difficulty. But this is my opinion - since this is a discussion thread I encourage discussion if you disagree :)

[Blackheartox]

The most common mistake is to think there are 2 sides.
Nay and aye sayers for raising difficulty.
There is a third side called turbine.



Do you really think it would make sense to give tp for couple normal quests for turbine?
I mean srsly, it takes like 3 seconds to figure out how much money they would lose with such a mechanic and thus how it would never be implemented.


Next thread please

[Gremmlynn]

Because Casual is a "throw-away" difficulty. But this is my opinion - since this is a discussion thread I encourage discussion if you disagree :)I think "walk through" difficulty would be a better term to use.

[Sehenry03]

First, please keep the discussion on-topic and avoid insulting those who disagree with or play differently than you.

There has been a lot of concern that the introduction of a new Difficulty Level would just produce more power creep if it also had better rewards. Some people proposed that a new Difficulty Level should not have better rewards in order to combat this issue. Then I read this post (emphasis mine):



This seems to me to be the ideal solution: every difficulty level has the exact same Favor, XP and Loot. Single person RPGs do it, why not DDO? If people truly enjoy a challenge, let them choose a more challenging level simply for the enjoyment. It would also have the perk of letting the uber players play by themselves as there would no longer be any incentive to play a harder difficulty but the challenge itself.

I would remove Casual or have it give no Favor, XP or Loot.

Well let me ask you this.

Lets say Player A runs a quest on Elite. He has to fight the toughest monsters. He avoids the nastiest traps. He kills a boss that is 10 times harder then on normal. He has taken the time to grind for the gear to be able to do this. He has done the TRing needed for this. He has developed skills for this. He enjoys finding newer and better gear which is why he runs Elite. He gets 15kxp, 45 Favor, and as an end reward he gets a +5 uber maul of buttsmashing.

Player B runs the same quest on Normal. He fighter watered down monsters that die in 1-2 hits. He simply walks through the traps because normal they barely scratch you. He kills a boss that takes a fraction of the dmg as the elite boss. He just started the game and has basic gear and never even thought about researching what gear drops where and how to get it. This is a first life toon and he has no plans on TRing or putting the effort into it. He completes the quest and gets 15kxp, 45 favor, and a +5 uber maul of buttsmashing.

What is the reasoning that Player B gets the same rewards for the same quest on an easy level? People seem to think that uber players only want quests to be harder just because. No. Most uber players I know do the hardest difficulty for the best rewards. They already started at ground lvl with a first life toon doing quests on normal and fought through that. They purposefully ran specific quests over and over to get the gear they want. They ran raids to get the stuff they want. They put in time to do it and thought everything out. Now your saying all that is moot because we have no incentive to run Elite content?

Player A has put in the time and effort to get that uber maul. Player B has not. Player B thinks it should be handed to him. Why shouldn't Player B have to put in a similar effort as Player A to get the same gear or favor or xp out of a quest? Why is Player B so special that he can walk through a quest with no danger and get the same rewards that Player A did while fighting everything on the hardest level? Player B can ALWAYS run the quest on normal and get ok xp and get ok gear and get ok favor. Then when he grows up he can start on hard and get better stuff. Then when he feels even more mature he can jump to Elite.

This isn't a new thing. TONS of MMO's and RPG's reward people for running on higher difficulties. That's what this is. A reward for playing on a harder level then your average person. What a lot of us veterans want is that Elite should be ELITE. It should be the HARDEST way to run a quest. And by running that quest on the hardest level you should get rewarded the best. You run on normal you get some ok gear and you run it a few times now you can try hard. You run hard a few times and you might be able to handle Elite. Or you get a group of friends who are running hard and you start trying elite.

I run elite because it will give me the best xp and the best favor. It should give the best gear but it really doesn't anymore.

When did the world change so much that everyone should get the super bowl trophy for playing football in your backyard? You play with the best and you get the best rewards. Otherwise you EARN your way up til you can.

What confuses me is at what point did people just start thinking Elite should be for ANYONE who tries it? Heck with that philosophy why not just bring the check mark idea back. When you click your difficulty you can check the "Auto win" box and collect your gear.

[Gremmlynn]

The most common mistake is to think there are 2 sides.
Nay and aye sayers for raising difficulty.
There is a third side called turbine.



Do you really think it would make sense to give tp for couple normal quests for turbine?
I mean srsly, it takes like 3 seconds to figure out how much money they would lose with such a mechanic and thus how it would never be implemented.


Next thread pleaseSo make gaining favor require an large number of runs to gain at lower difficulties. How would that be different than what we have currently with 100 favor dashes on off servers?

[Connman]

This seems like a good place to post this.

I believe the very best thing they could do is remove C/N/H/E altogether. just have it be like the challenges with the drop down menu. Now the actual numbers it says, could be for example, 1-100. For purpose of favor, have 1-25 be considered the casual tier, 26-50 be normal, 51-75 be hard and have 76-100 be elite. With level 100 only completable by the so called perfect group, what ever that might be. Then instead of trying to divide there player base into 4 groups with C/N/H/E, you would be dividing them into 100 different groups. Instead of dropping all the way down to *big sigh* normal. You could drop down from 100-99 for example, depending on how much of you was left when the monsters were done with you, and only lose out on an appropriate scaling loss of XP but still be in that "elite" favor bracket. You could keep dropping down all the way to 76 before you would lose out on favor. With this example level 76 could actually be easier than elite is right now and make level 100 so hard that if anyone is even able to complete it a world message could go out like the guild messages, <Player name>,<Player name>,<Player name>.. have just completed, quest name. at level 100. On second thought that might be annoying but I already typed it.

The idea here is that you would be able to drop down to a lower difficulty while still getting that top tier favor reward if you want it.

One of the arguments against this will be well that puts an even bigger barrier for grouping, one of the arguments against a 5th difficulty setting, but I disagree because when cove is up I see people putting LFM's up for level ranges. This way players would be able to ease into level ranges that are more appropriate for the toon they are currently running without having to deal with the big jump in difficulty in the level settings the way are now.

[HAL]

The most common mistake is to think there are 2 sides.
Nay and aye sayers for raising difficulty.
There is a third side called turbine.



Do you really think it would make sense to give tp for couple normal quests for turbine?
I mean srsly, it takes like 3 seconds to figure out how much money they would lose with such a mechanic and thus how it would never be implemented.


Next thread please

You bring up a good point. I would propose that each quest give the amount of Favor equivalent to Hard difficulty. Yes, a person could run quests on Normal and get a bit more Favor but I don't think it would be that unreasonable. Favor totals for Patrons/rewards would have to be adjusted but that wouldn't be that difficult.

[HAL]

I think "walk through" difficulty would be a better term to use.

There you go, exactly what I was looking for.

[HAL]

Well let me ask you this.

Lets say Player A runs a quest on Elite. He has to fight the toughest monsters. He avoids the nastiest traps. He kills a boss that is 10 times harder then on normal. He has taken the time to grind for the gear to be able to do this. He has done the TRing needed for this. He has developed skills for this. He enjoys finding newer and better gear which is why he runs Elite. He gets 15kxp, 45 Favor, and as an end reward he gets a +5 uber maul of buttsmashing.

Player B runs the same quest on Normal. He fighter watered down monsters that die in 1-2 hits. He simply walks through the traps because normal they barely scratch you. He kills a boss that takes a fraction of the dmg as the elite boss. He just started the game and has basic gear and never even thought about researching what gear drops where and how to get it. This is a first life toon and he has no plans on TRing or putting the effort into it. He completes the quest and gets 15kxp, 45 favor, and a +5 uber maul of buttsmashing.

That is certainly one way of looking at it. As I mentioned, single player games do what I am discussing: your character(s) get the same exact stuff if you play a higher difficulty. So why do people play a higher difficulty on those games? Because they are looking for a challenge. Some games might have a way to record what players do the harder difficulties or achievements, etc. And that would certainly be something to consider in this discussion.

[HAL]

So make gaining favor require an large number of runs to gain at lower difficulties. How would that be different than what we have currently with 100 favor dashes on off servers?

That would be another option although it would start to go back to the incentive to play a higher difficulty than you are comfortable with.

[Sehenry03]

That is certainly one way of looking at it. As I mentioned, single player games do what I am discussing: your character(s) get the same exact stuff if you play a higher difficulty. So why do people play a higher difficulty on those games? Because they are looking for a challenge. Some games might have a way to record what players do the harder difficulties or achievements, etc. And that would certainly be something to consider in this discussion.

Umm no...not all single player games. Dragon Age for an example has rewards only available if you beat it on nightmare or gear that can only be found while playing on nightmare difficulty. That's one example. The thing is...this isn't a single player game. Its an MMO. Its ALWAYS had difficulty levels with special rewards for beating the higher levels. Why should it suddenly change because some players now don't want to have to fight tougher monsters to get better rewards? Now people want everything handed to them?

I have said this a lot lately but I am just astounded that people really think they should get the best favor for running normal levels. Why? The point is to make your character more powerful so you CAN run them on the higher levels and so you can run the higher raids.

[goodspeed]

Sounds like a whole lotta prattle to not try.

I don't see anything wrong with er as it was already done tried and tested true. You ran en, and you got this sucktastic item, amateurishly ok. But ee. EE was the king, the icing, the crem. Theirs a reason why the ee helm goes for hundreds where the enorm is more... meh.

Besides seems like every melee build has the the stuff to survive in there on ee. Even solo. Especially if your in the right destiny. And if ya can't; well then ya best find a way to. I never got an easy mode playing phantasy star and chrono telling the sega or snes its to hard lol. (BUT! hahaha, for some cash I could call the hint hotline. Get it? Pay to win back then, pay to win now bwahaha.)

[Qhualor]

nah. rather have the incentives and the difficulties balanced out better so people will stick to their appropriate difficulty setting. if they want better rewards than it should be a good motivator to strive to be a better player. if they cant handle a higher difficulty than the rewards they can find on their own difficulty setting should be just as good as it is for an elite player using elite gear. favor is set up to be earned and not given away for free, which is exactly what this thread is suggesting. you can still earn favor running normal and theres nothing stopping anyone from going back as a higher level character to get elite favor. we all want to one and done and not repeat quests, but we all do it for one reason or another. it could be when you TR for the 28th time or when you create a new character or you are looking for a specific item from a raid/quest or because you like certain quests.

DDO has been trending downwards with casualization the last few years. its time to bring back some challenge and earning something for once.

[HAL]

Umm no...not all single player games. Dragon Age for an example has rewards only available if you beat it on nightmare or gear that can only be found while playing on nightmare difficulty. That's one example. The thing is...this isn't a single player game. Its an MMO. Its ALWAYS had difficulty levels with special rewards for beating the higher levels. Why should it suddenly change because some players now don't want to have to fight tougher monsters to get better rewards? Now people want everything handed to them?

I have said this a lot lately but I am just astounded that people really think they should get the best favor for running normal levels. Why? The point is to make your character more powerful so you CAN run them on the higher levels and so you can run the higher raids.

I never said all single player games. And yes, I know that difficulty levels with better stuff is traditional for DDO. That doesn't mean it is required and certainly many things have been drastically changed in DDO before. And MMOs do not traditionally have difficulty levels for regular quests.

As for your statements about what players do or do not want to do, I haven't seen any evidence of those claims so I'm not sure what the point is in making them. And the point could be to make your character more powerful because you want to and so you can run higher difficulties if you like that challenge.

[Lemdog]

First, please keep the discussion on-topic and avoid insulting those who disagree with or play differently than you.

There has been a lot of concern that the introduction of a new Difficulty Level would just produce more power creep if it also had better rewards. Some people proposed that a new Difficulty Level should not have better rewards in order to combat this issue. Then I read this post (emphasis mine):



This seems to me to be the ideal solution: every difficulty level has the exact same Favor, XP and Loot. Single person RPGs do it, why not DDO? If people truly enjoy a challenge, let them choose a more challenging level simply for the enjoyment. It would also have the perk of letting the uber players play by themselves as there would no longer be any incentive to play a harder difficulty but the challenge itself.

I would remove Casual or have it give no Favor, XP or Loot.

OR just make the game much harder than it is now. Elite would be so hard and gives good loot favor xp better than e-z mode norm obviously. Elite is easy mode today and it shouldnt be. MAKE ELITE HARD. Is quite absurd for easyer mode norm and easy mode elite diff to give same rewards. Kinda defeats the point. Casual should stay. Leave that as is for new players to learn game

[HAL]

OR just make the game much harder than it is now. Elite would be so hard and gives good loot favor xp better than e-z mode norm obviously. Elite is easy mode today and it shouldnt be. MAKE ELITE HARD. Is quite absurd for easyer mode norm and easy mode elite diff to give same rewards. Kinda defeats the point. Casual should stay. Leave that as is for new players to learn game

The point of having difficulties would be for people who like a challenge to have a challenge, just like in many single player games.

[Gremmlynn]

Well let me ask you this.

Lets say Player A runs a quest on Elite. He has to fight the toughest monsters. He avoids the nastiest traps. He kills a boss that is 10 times harder then on normal. He has taken the time to grind for the gear to be able to do this. He has done the TRing needed for this. He has developed skills for this. He enjoys finding newer and better gear which is why he runs Elite. He gets 15kxp, 45 Favor, and as an end reward he gets a +5 uber maul of buttsmashing.

Player B runs the same quest on Normal. He fighter watered down monsters that die in 1-2 hits. He simply walks through the traps because normal they barely scratch you. He kills a boss that takes a fraction of the dmg as the elite boss. He just started the game and has basic gear and never even thought about researching what gear drops where and how to get it. This is a first life toon and he has no plans on TRing or putting the effort into it. He completes the quest and gets 15kxp, 45 favor, and a +5 uber maul of buttsmashing.

What is the reasoning that Player B gets the same rewards for the same quest on an easy level? People seem to think that uber players only want quests to be harder just because. No. Most uber players I know do the hardest difficulty for the best rewards. They already started at ground lvl with a first life toon doing quests on normal and fought through that. They purposefully ran specific quests over and over to get the gear they want. They ran raids to get the stuff they want. They put in time to do it and thought everything out. Now your saying all that is moot because we have no incentive to run Elite content?

Player A has put in the time and effort to get that uber maul. Player B has not. Player B thinks it should be handed to him. Why shouldn't Player B have to put in a similar effort as Player A to get the same gear or favor or xp out of a quest? Why is Player B so special that he can walk through a quest with no danger and get the same rewards that Player A did while fighting everything on the hardest level? Player B can ALWAYS run the quest on normal and get ok xp and get ok gear and get ok favor. Then when he grows up he can start on hard and get better stuff. Then when he feels even more mature he can jump to Elite.

This isn't a new thing. TONS of MMO's and RPG's reward people for running on higher difficulties. That's what this is. A reward for playing on a harder level then your average person. What a lot of us veterans want is that Elite should be ELITE. It should be the HARDEST way to run a quest. And by running that quest on the hardest level you should get rewarded the best. You run on normal you get some ok gear and you run it a few times now you can try hard. You run hard a few times and you might be able to handle Elite. Or you get a group of friends who are running hard and you start trying elite.

I run elite because it will give me the best xp and the best favor. It should give the best gear but it really doesn't anymore.

When did the world change so much that everyone should get the super bowl trophy for playing football in your backyard? You play with the best and you get the best rewards. Otherwise you EARN your way up til you can.

What confuses me is at what point did people just start thinking Elite should be for ANYONE who tries it? Heck with that philosophy why not just bring the check mark idea back. When you click your difficulty you can check the "Auto win" box and collect your gear.That would make a ton of sense if Turbine were an NPO that cared more about rewarding hard work and determination than it did about keeping as many customers playing as they can.

While I wont say I know exactly what is most profitable for Turbine. I will say that I doubt it's rewarding a minority that can beat really hard content simply due to the way the game has been making the toughest content more accessible to all players that has been mentioned in several threads.

[legendkilleroll]

NO thanks!

Some players may want challenge just to say "look at me! i did it!" but what about the people who want to be rewarded for their hard work, extra time spent etc?

We have an achievment section and me personally have no interest in that, i dont want to show others screenshots of how uber or gimp i am, i dont want to upload videos so that i can receive praise or hate from others.

If im completing elite i want something for it, if you cant do elite yet then do hard until you can, i dont see the point if you can get exactly the same in half the time doing easier difficulty, alot of players are gonna choose the easy path regarless if their amazing or not, why do Wiz king EE when you can run it 2-3 times on EN in that time.

Some like to look good by showing off what they have done others want to improve their in game character, this isnt a single player rpg!

[Hendrik]

First, please keep the discussion on-topic and avoid insulting those who disagree with or play differently than you.

There has been a lot of concern that the introduction of a new Difficulty Level would just produce more power creep if it also had better rewards. Some people proposed that a new Difficulty Level should not have better rewards in order to combat this issue. Then I read this post (emphasis mine):



This seems to me to be the ideal solution: every difficulty level has the exact same Favor, XP and Loot. Single person RPGs do it, why not DDO? If people truly enjoy a challenge, let them choose a more challenging level simply for the enjoyment. It would also have the perk of letting the uber players play by themselves as there would no longer be any incentive to play a harder difficulty but the challenge itself.

I would remove Casual or have it give no Favor, XP or Loot.


While a very good idea on the surface, one thing is left out.

People will take the path of least resistance. If you get the same xp, loot, and favor from running EE as you would on HN, there is no incentive to run anything over HN.

People will not put forth more effort to get something that they can otherwise get with little to no effort.

There are so many things wrong with DDO and it's players more drastic changes need to be taken.

Dungeon Scaling need to be removed.

Far more emphasis needs to be placed on grouping, not less.

And the elephant in the room, difficulty. Difficulty needs to be raised across the board.

[letour]

Well let me ask you this.

Lets say Player A runs a quest on Elite. He has to fight the toughest monsters. He avoids the nastiest traps. He kills a boss that is 10 times harder then on normal. He has taken the time to grind for the gear to be able to do this. He has done the TRing needed for this. He has developed skills for this. He enjoys finding newer and better gear which is why he runs Elite. He gets 15kxp, 45 Favor, and as an end reward he gets a +5 uber maul of buttsmashing.

Player B runs the same quest on Normal. He fighter watered down monsters that die in 1-2 hits. He simply walks through the traps because normal they barely scratch you. He kills a boss that takes a fraction of the dmg as the elite boss. He just started the game and has basic gear and never even thought about researching what gear drops where and how to get it. This is a first life toon and he has no plans on TRing or putting the effort into it. He completes the quest and gets 15kxp, 45 favor, and a +5 uber maul of buttsmashing.

What is the reasoning that Player B gets the same rewards for the same quest on an easy level? People seem to think that uber players only want quests to be harder just because. No. Most uber players I know do the hardest difficulty for the best rewards. They already started at ground lvl with a first life toon doing quests on normal and fought through that. They purposefully ran specific quests over and over to get the gear they want. They ran raids to get the stuff they want. They put in time to do it and thought everything out. Now your saying all that is moot because we have no incentive to run Elite content?

Player A has put in the time and effort to get that uber maul. Player B has not. Player B thinks it should be handed to him. Why shouldn't Player B have to put in a similar effort as Player A to get the same gear or favor or xp out of a quest? Why is Player B so special that he can walk through a quest with no danger and get the same rewards that Player A did while fighting everything on the hardest level? Player B can ALWAYS run the quest on normal and get ok xp and get ok gear and get ok favor. Then when he grows up he can start on hard and get better stuff. Then when he feels even more mature he can jump to Elite.

This isn't a new thing. TONS of MMO's and RPG's reward people for running on higher difficulties. That's what this is. A reward for playing on a harder level then your average person. What a lot of us veterans want is that Elite should be ELITE. It should be the HARDEST way to run a quest. And by running that quest on the hardest level you should get rewarded the best. You run on normal you get some ok gear and you run it a few times now you can try hard. You run hard a few times and you might be able to handle Elite. Or you get a group of friends who are running hard and you start trying elite.

I run elite because it will give me the best xp and the best favor. It should give the best gear but it really doesn't anymore.

When did the world change so much that everyone should get the super bowl trophy for playing football in your backyard? You play with the best and you get the best rewards. Otherwise you EARN your way up til you can.

What confuses me is at what point did people just start thinking Elite should be for ANYONE who tries it? Heck with that philosophy why not just bring the check mark idea back. When you click your difficulty you can check the "Auto win" box and collect your gear.

Well you could do elite for the challenge or to be proud of youself :). You do not always need a carrot to do something. The football is really different sitution. It's pvp and it's a sport. It's also a real life. The only reward you gain is renown and a trophy (basically guild favor (joke)). You do not earn any xp or any gear by winning the superball. Nothing give you an unfair advantage over the other by winning it. You may get yourself better because you face better opponents, but that's pretty much it.

Did you guys ever did n/h/e on lot low level quest. I did it. It's a zergfest. Dificult. Not at all. Time consuming yes.

Do elite because you are round of yourself :) Maybe earn a trophy like in superbowl.

[Chai]

With the way the game is monetized, how many less xp stones, potions, tomes, etc....will they sell if they let people plow through TR lives on normal and claim all the favor rewards for doing so, which include TP, and +5 tomes.

[bartharok]

That is certainly one way of looking at it. As I mentioned, single player games do what I am discussing: your character(s) get the same exact stuff if you play a higher difficulty. So why do people play a higher difficulty on those games? Because they are looking for a challenge. Some games might have a way to record what players do the harder difficulties or achievements, etc. And that would certainly be something to consider in this discussion.

In single player games it works well, but in a MMO, where people are likely to be competing with each other about something or other, it would be likely to cause several rearends to ache unbearably.

[HAL]

While a very good idea on the surface, one thing is left out.

People will take the path of least resistance. If you get the same xp, loot, and favor from running EE as you would on HN, there is no incentive to run anything over HN.

People will not put forth more effort to get something that they can otherwise get with little to no effort.

And yet "people" do that all the time. People choose to play harder difficulties on many games that have multiple difficulties without better rewards. People choose to put forth more effort by creating their own challenges in games and those challenges have no additional rewards (permadeath, naked runs, etc.) Maybe you wouldn't want to play a harder difficulty just for the challenge, but don't project your feelings on everyone else please.


There are so many things wrong with DDO and it's players more drastic changes need to be taken.

I'd say that my suggestion is a pretty drastic change. And the point of making all difficulties give the same rewards is that it would remove the incentive for people to play difficulties that they aren't suited for. Elite could be made quite a bit harder because Bravery Bonus, Favor, etc. would not be drawing non-uber players to that difficulty.

[HAL]

With the way the game is monetized, how many less xp stones, potions, tomes, etc....will they sell if they let people plow through TR lives on normal and claim all the favor rewards for doing so, which include TP, and +5 tomes.

Since we don't know the data, its impossible to say how many people TR on Hard or Normal anyway or how many stones are normally purchased by whom. And those with the disposable income to purchase multiple stones to progress their character or avoid a disliked Class life may still do so for the convenience. And how many people got tons of pots from Anniversary Cards? And yet Turbine wasn't concerned with giving those for free. I don't know a lot of people who grind lives for tomes and I can't see anyone I know starting to do that because Favor might be slightly easier to get.

[HAL]

In single player games it works well, but in a MMO, where people are likely to be competing with each other about something or other, it would be likely to cause several rearends to ache unbearably.

Single player games increasingly connect players through websites, social media and especially services like Steam in order to allow this type of competition. Whereas DDO has the least player or character comparison / competition means of any MMO I know.

[Tolsimar]

Stupid Idea. There are already way too many EN runs up. Give People a reason to do EE.

[Chai]

Single player games increasingly connect players through websites, social media and especially services like Steam in order to allow this type of competition. Whereas DDO has the least player or character comparison / competition means of any MMO I know.

But DDO monetizes by selling points to buy tomes and faster advancement. Allowing HN runs to TR people at full favor and therefore same points earned as HE TRs doesn't synergize with how the game is monetized. Single player games can do it because their revenue is made by selling the game on a shelf or in steam.

[Oxarhamar]

Rewards for EN vs. EE are already way off balance after a first time run.

The increased XP of EE falls behind the speed to acquire the XP on normal.
The loot has been the same for many updates.
The challenge is hardly an increase just more HPs to peel away.
Favor only comes from the first EE completion no more are nessisary thereafter.

The only remaining boons to EE:
older tiered loot (mostly outdated or now epic twink gear)
Champion chunks ? Laughable in most epic quests if your serious about them you'll be farming specifics.
Sagas but, the rewards are also a bit unbalanced there as well: XP can be had easily it's not really worth it, reknown is nice but, easier to obtain elsewhere, skill tomes are a gamble to get one you need & only useful if you haven't collected the ones you need already.

I say bring back tiered loot or unique elite rewards and up the XP for repeat runs.

[Hendrik]

And yet "people" do that all the time. People choose to play harder difficulties on many games that have multiple difficulties without better rewards. People choose to put forth more effort by creating their own challenges in games and those challenges have no additional rewards (permadeath, naked runs, etc.) Maybe you wouldn't want to play a harder difficulty just for the challenge, but don't project your feelings on everyone else please.



I'd say that my suggestion is a pretty drastic change. And the point of making all difficulties give the same rewards is that it would remove the incentive for people to play difficulties that they aren't suited for. Elite could be made quite a bit harder because Bravery Bonus, Favor, etc. would not be drawing non-uber players to that difficulty.


So, to make thing challenging you want players to nerf themselves by going naked or play PD. In case you have not yet noticed, players do NOT want to grind for more power and then be told to stop using it. Then to end you have the gall to assume I am projecting. Class or actually total lack thereof.


I do agree, you suggestion is drastic in only rendering all difficulty settings moot. All settings give the same rewards so people wont play above what they are ready for? People do that now. It is why we no longer have tiered loot.

Part of the equation your missing is risk and reward.

[nokowi]

I have seen a lot of good ideas advocated by HAL on these forums, but this is not one of them.

DDO is a character creation game where many people strive to find new combinations of class/race/destiny while increasing their power through gear/reincarnation. This is not everyone, but this is what keeps DDO running. With static dungeons, you run out of flowers to sniff pretty quickly. If you have a great group of friends to play with on a consistent basis, you are lucky. Trivializing DDO content that is already too easy (by making uber gear even easier to acquire), is not good for DDO. This will likely reduce player play time, revenue, and grouping. One of the worst ideas I have seen on the threads in a long time.

A similar post might just ask players to run around with no gear if they need a challenge. This would also not be a good solution.

Much of the excitement of running EH/EE is testing your current abilities vs harder and harder monsters in order to gain that juicy loot. Many of our fondest memories are of that rare drop from a challenging adventure.

Here are the sure steps to ending DDO
1. Remove challenge
2. Remove friends/grouping
3. Remove reward

Please think carefully before advocating #3. IMHO, #1 and #2 are already too prevalent.

[HAL]

I have seen a lot of good ideas advocated by HAL on these forums, but this is not one of them.

DDO is a character creation game where many people strive to find new combinations of class/race/destiny while increasing their power through gear/reincarnation. This is not everyone, but this is what keeps DDO running. With static dungeons, you run out of flowers to sniff pretty quickly. If you have a great group of friends to play with on a consistent basis, you are lucky. Trivializing DDO content that is already too easy (by making uber gear even easier to acquire), is not good for DDO. This will likely reduce player play time, revenue, and grouping. One of the worst ideas I have seen on the threads in a long time.

A similar post might just ask players to run around with no gear if they need a challenge. This would also not be a good solution.

Much of the excitement of running EH/EE is testing your current abilities vs harder and harder monsters in order to gain that juicy loot. Many of our fondest memories are of that rare drop from a challenging adventure.

Here are the sure steps to ending DDO
1. Remove challenge
2. Remove friends/grouping
3. Remove reward

Please think carefully before advocating #3. IMHO, #1 and #2 are already too prevalent.

I'm not sure what you are responding to, here is my OP:


This seems to me to be the ideal solution: every difficulty level has the exact same Favor, XP and Loot. Single person RPGs do it, why not DDO? If people truly enjoy a challenge, let them choose a more challenging level simply for the enjoyment. It would also have the perk of letting the uber players play by themselves as there would no longer be any incentive to play a harder difficulty but the challenge itself.

I would remove Casual or have it give no Favor, XP or Loot.


It does not say anything about nerfing the challenge of a difficulty level. In fact it says that difficulty could be raised since people would not be tempted to run a higher difficulty unless they liked that challenge. As for friends / grouping I'm not sure what your point is. And reward wouldn't be removed, you just wouldn't get more reward for a higher difficulty.

[nolifer1]

First, please keep the discussion on-topic and avoid insulting those who disagree with or play differently than you.

There has been a lot of concern that the introduction of a new Difficulty Level would just produce more power creep if it also had better rewards. Some people proposed that a new Difficulty Level should not have better rewards in order to combat this issue. Then I read this post (emphasis mine):



This seems to me to be the ideal solution: every difficulty level has the exact same Favor, XP and Loot. Single person RPGs do it, why not DDO? If people truly enjoy a challenge, let them choose a more challenging level simply for the enjoyment. It would also have the perk of letting the uber players play by themselves as there would no longer be any incentive to play a harder difficulty but the challenge itself.

I would remove Casual or have it give no Favor, XP or Loot.
this is how videogames shold work, higer diffuculties higer rewards! if we go even more casual, than we are right now, its not game anymore, more like my grandmothers frideay night pillow-party special edition! maximum casual!
also turbie win more money when game is harder, it means more people buy stuff with turbine point codes, like we used to have back in days when cap was 20.
cant go anymore casual



NO thanks!

Some players may want challenge just to say "look at me! i did it!" but what about the people who want to be rewarded for their hard work, extra time spent etc?

We have an achievment section and me personally have no interest in that, i dont want to show others screenshots of how uber or gimp i am, i dont want to upload videos so that i can receive praise or hate from others.

If im completing elite i want something for it, if you cant do elite yet then do hard until you can, i dont see the point if you can get exactly the same in half the time doing easier difficulty, alot of players are gonna choose the easy path regarless if their amazing or not, why do Wiz king EE when you can run it 2-3 times on EN in that time.

Some like to look good by showing off what they have done others want to improve their in game character, this isnt a single player rpg!
thats why u shold read achivemnt forum, to actuallys learn that there is lot of peole, who solo ee wiz king faster thne 90% people doing it with full group on epic normal

[Oxarhamar]

I'm not sure what you are responding to, here is my OP:




It does not say anything about nerfing the challenge of a difficulty level. In fact it says that difficulty could be raised since people would not be tempted to run a higher difficulty unless they liked that challenge. As for friends / grouping I'm not sure what your point is. And reward wouldn't be removed, you just wouldn't get more reward for a higher difficulty.

Giving the same reward for all difficulty removes the reward from higher difficulties.

[JOTMON]

First, please keep the discussion on-topic and avoid insulting those who disagree with or play differently than you.

There has been a lot of concern that the introduction of a new Difficulty Level would just produce more power creep if it also had better rewards. Some people proposed that a new Difficulty Level should not have better rewards in order to combat this issue. Then I read this post (emphasis mine):



This seems to me to be the ideal solution: every difficulty level has the exact same Favor, XP and Loot. Single person RPGs do it, why not DDO? If people truly enjoy a challenge, let them choose a more challenging level simply for the enjoyment. It would also have the perk of letting the uber players play by themselves as there would no longer be any incentive to play a harder difficulty but the challenge itself.

I would remove Casual or have it give no Favor, XP or Loot.

This would be a terrible move for DDO.
Higher difficulty means more resources, more planning, and higher risk of failure..
To me it is asinine to think that running normal should be the same reward as running Elite.


Bringing in a quest for just "challenge" with no reward would become a "one and done" quest.
There is no replayability to these quests.

Players face challenges for reward, as long as the reward is appealing players will run the quest as often as it takes to get the reward.
It is the whole premise of progression.. face challenge get reward, move onto next challenge. fail challenge figure out what wasn't working, change strategy, gear, tatctics, whatever.. repeat challenge.

It is a stepping stone progression, start with easy challenges an work your way up. get this to make that easier.. get that to make this easier... all pieces for the progression.
We level to get more power, access to other abilities to face greater challenges.. otherwise why leave Kortho's if you just want to farm the same quest over and over again.

http://i59.tinypic.com/oo3lf.jpg

...Cost vs benefit analysis...

I am ok with the tiered ingredient progression..
Where you get 1 ingredient for Normal, 2 for Hard, and 4 for Elite.. it takes 100 ingredients to upgrade your item.
There is a consideration you have to make.. do I run this 4x more than Elite to get my ingredient .. or do I challenge the higher difficulty and get more ingredients quicker.

I prefer the slightly better version at higher difficulties..
Good item on norm with 1 augment slot.. better version item on hard with 2 augment slots, Best version on Elite with 2 upgraded augment slots.
If you want the best stuff you have to bring your "A" game to the most difficult tier of content.

Necro is an abomination for ease of access drops.. while I love the gear.. it is currently best in game gear, the fact that mythic versions can drop on casual is appalling.
This best of the best gear is too easy to achieve. and there is no tiered incentive.
I would of had tiered ingredients to unlock each of the augment slots (1 in hard/2nd in Elite) that are only available in each Tier of difficulty.
Mythic should only have a chance of dropping on Elite. that should be the draw to get that slightly better item, or be happy with what you have.

[deuxanes]

... simply make the favor, experience, and loot the same across the board, regardless of the difficulty setting and that approach is fine. Then, folks can set the difficulty to their enjoyment level rather than to collect rewards for it, and the question of Champions become less important. ...

This would simply result in people doing the quests on the lowest difficulty setting. If you would want challenge you probably would have to run with a static group.

How are things today? People prefer to run the quests on elite. Even with ship buffs and twink gear things can go south (although the chances are pretty low. Actually I had met some TRed and twinked players that managed to die within 5minutes inside a quest. That's an accomplishment, due to careless play. You really have to respect that.). With champions there will be an additional random element. Yes they are tougher and cause some more harm. But that makes soloing less efficient. People still run quests on elite.
I prefer my own characters non-TRed and without twink gear. Every one of my character will have to "work" himself/herself for gear. That means I play the game and earn some equipment & money. The money goes into potions/wands and gear.

Although I find the mysterious remnants a nuisance which blocks inventory space I would rather keep things as they are. Turbine should spend some resources with fine tuning things. Remember when they introduced dungeons scaling and the nasty side effects with traps and stuff?

[nokowi]

I'm not sure what you are responding to, here is my OP:




It does not say anything about nerfing the challenge of a difficulty level. In fact it says that difficulty could be raised since people would not be tempted to run a higher difficulty unless they liked that challenge. As for friends / grouping I'm not sure what your point is. And reward wouldn't be removed, you just wouldn't get more reward for a higher difficulty.


Greater challenge = greater reward is the basis for many games, and results in more longevity and play time, and $$ to keep the Turbine engines running.

DDO largely is a character build/improvement game. Removing this makes character/skill improvement very hollow and meaningless (for me anyway), because there is nothing in the game you need that improvement to achieve. I doubt I would be here if this type of implementation existed.

[HAL]

Players face challenges for reward

I assume that you mean "players face higher challenges for more rewards" since there are many games people love to play that offer no reward at all. And there are plenty of games where people choose to play a harder difficulty with no difference in reward. Why would they do that if players MUST have better rewards.


, as long as the reward is appealing players will run the quest as often as it takes to get the reward.
It is the whole premise of progression.. face challenge get reward, move onto next challenge. fail challenge figure out what wasn't working, change strategy, gear, tatctics, whatever.. repeat challenge.

But I never said to remove progression - there would still be rewards.

[Gremmlynn]

Greater challenge = greater reward is the basis for many games, and results in more longevity and play time, and $$ to keep the Turbine engines running.

DDO largely is a character build/improvement game. Removing this makes character/skill improvement very hollow and meaningless (for me anyway), because there is nothing in the game you need that improvement to achieve. I doubt I would be here if this type of implementation existed.I keep seeing this said. But then I hear about the "casualization" of the game and wonder why Turbine does that if not doing so results in more longevity, play time and $$.

[HAL]

Greater challenge = greater reward is the basis for many games, and results in more longevity and play time, and $$ to keep the Turbine engines running.

DDO largely is a character build/improvement game. Removing this makes character/skill improvement very hollow and meaningless (for me anyway), because there is nothing in the game you need that improvement to achieve. I doubt I would be here if this type of implementation existed.

You improve a character in most MMOs by gaining higher levels and better gear. Difficulty levels are not needed to improve your character.

[Qhualor]

You improve a character in most MMOs by gaining higher levels and better gear. Difficulty levels are not needed to improve your character.

right, but the difficulty level is supposed to be there to match the power level of the character you have been working towards to improving. DDO doesn't have that right now.

[HAL]

right, but the difficulty level is supposed to be there to match the power level of the character you have been working towards to improving. DDO doesn't have that right now.

As I've mentioned (I think twice now), if you remove additional reward from higher difficulty levels people would have no reason to want to play those difficulties unless they actually enjoyed a challenge. Hard could be made more hard and Elite could be make super-hard without forcing anyone to get less rewards by moving to a lower difficulty. So players of characters with multiple PLs and / or gear would have exactly what you're talking about.