Sev Lets talk Thunder Forged Crafting tweaks

[IronClan]

As far as I can tell (I've posted, asked around) no one has crafted a TF weapon with T3 Mind breaker, Body or Leg breaker. Probably because no one can tell what they actually do or how they function, and they sound pretty weak, being poorly described doesn't help. Competing against Mortal Fear one of the more unbalanced "must have" affixes. Who's going to spend 30 phlogs on what appears to be a 5% proc that has a DC (which means it's a lot lower than 5% chance) when you can get clearly better on crit procs (which is a minimum of 10% chance but far more likely to be 20-30%) or no save 5% Mortal fear procs? They makes no sense as T3's and with a DC or even competing with each other as leg breaker is clearly inferior to Mind, and Body clearly inferior to either of those. There are several other weaknesses and oddly uneven choices. So that in mind here's some suggestions for some mostly easy minor tweaks.

T1


Move: Body Breaker from T3 to T1 change it to a 5% chance of no save improved Sunder proc with a +1 bonus to general tactics DC
Move: T2 Augment Green/Red slot choice and make it T1 this is a terrible T2 but would make a pretty competitive T1 choice.
New: Keen (as the random loot prefix) basically saves you a a feat slot, or allows a multi weapon fighter the versatility to use say a blunt weapon without having to take IC:blunt in addition to his main IC: Slash, or what have you.
Change: Blinding Fear to allow it to proc on Cleaves on more than 1 mob. On hit -1 to mob saves for 6 secs
New: Dwarven Tempering +1 Enhancement bonus +2 Dwaven Seeker (this is part of a new upgrade path for players who value 1st number damage over affixes and procs, giving us a choice for lower weapon speed/big crits in a crafting system that currently overemphasizes affixes, and attack speed and getting as many % Proc chances as possible)


T2

Change: Dragons Blessing on ANY targeted spellcast 5% chance of proc'ing a Mass Regenerate as druid spell benefits from casters devotion and lore
Move: Leg Breaker into T2 give it a straight 2% chance to trip no save and a passive +1 stacking bonus to tactics DC's
Remove: DC 50 from "wrath" abilities adjust AOE damage as needed
New: Dwarven Honed +1 Enhancement Bonus, +4 Dwarven Seeker stacks with other "Dwarven quality" choices
Move: all "Storm" T3's to T2 and make them 5 per rest as they are described. All storm clickies take Caster spell power and crit chance.


T3


Change: Mind Breaker into a 2% chance to proc mass hold monster no save +1 stacking bonus to Tactics, if any 2 Breaker abilities are taken then tactical feat cooldowns are reduced by 10%
Change: Draconic Re-invigoration cools off at 60 seconds instead of 100, can now recharge 1 use/charge of a clickie held in the hand per 120 seconds (aimed at Storm clickies)
New: Dwarven Runes/Incantations +1 Enhancement, +4 Dwarven Seeker if T1 and T2 Dwarven quality choices are taken then you can choose between Dwarven Incantations +1 Crit range or Dwarven Runes X1 Crit multiplier (this basically results in a "clean" TF weapon having similar attraction as a classic "clean" +5 weapon or eSoS, Adaxus etc.)

[Standal]

How about just not changing anything and accepting that there are certain Thunderforged items that are better than others? When the devs give us options, there is always one that is the better than the others for a given build. Greensteel crafting had options that were completely terrible and everyone loves it. There's no problem with Thunderforged crafting.

[kmoustakas]

I wouldn't tweak it per se but I wouldn't mind if another raid dropped for example ice dragon phlogs for more available choices. No need for a total new system every new raid. Yes, your green steel was awesome that doesn't mean that EVERY SINGLE RAID YOU COME UP WITH has to have new crafting system.

[IronClan]

How about just not changing anything and accepting that there are certain Thunderforged items that are better than others? When the devs give us options, there is always one that is the better than the others for a given build. Greensteel crafting had options that were completely terrible and everyone loves it. There's no problem with Thunderforged crafting.

How about not settling? How about having more DPS options than "max speed max procs". Unless you need the bad options in place to make it easy to choose the right ones or something. That's not an uncommon thing in MMO's I will admit.

GS is FAR more evenly designed than TF IMO, and also has far more varied and interesting options that are worth wild or were for long stretches of the games history.

[relenttless]

How about having a raid/crafting system where 90% of the people with top tier weapons AREN'T using duped ingredients to finish them?

Not necessarily because they want to dupe, but because The absurdly low drop rates did nothing but encourage them to dupe!

increase the drop rate for phlogs and folk might be more inclined to try out the more obscure combinations, and honest players might get to finish their weapons

If I ever get another 30 shadow phlogs I'm going to make another mortal fear weapon, it took me a year to make the first, and I'm not wasting them on something that might well be garbage.
meanwhile I encounter people with multiple weapons..........

[xberto]

How about having a raid/crafting system where 90% of the people with top tier weapons AREN'T using duped ingredients to finish them?


I don't want to come off as someone worried about "what other people have" I'm not like that. But I do think, in light of the mass duping that went on, the intoduction of the next top-tier weapons should be expidited.

[IronClan]

I don't want to come off as someone worried about "what other people have" I'm not like that. But I do think, in light of the mass duping that went on, the intoduction of the next top-tier weapons should be expidited.

I don't really believe that many people duped phlogs, that can't be traded either so only the people who had the will and know how to do the dupe two step (dupe step?) Got easy T3s. Lots of those TF weapons are missing third tier still.

I would actually like to see them introduce a new type of phlog and scale/ingot ingredient if they were willing to tweak the system. They already have it setup for fire or shadow, nothing stoping them from making negative and positive or some such. The new affixes could use them.

I suggest this because of duping and because for whatever reason DDO Devs historically have almost zero likelihood to go back and improve poorly design systems. TF was made before they really started listening to the players. And almost none of the criticisms we had were addressed and the few that were were only given token improvment. DC'S for example. The presence of fixed DC'S on weapons is ********, either scale the DC with character level, or use proc chance to control how often it hits or scale the effect.

I think the single worst aspect of DDO's development history after being rushed out in alpha form, has to be the unwillingness to polish or update systems or content after the fact.

[slarden]

I don't want to come off as someone worried about "what other people have" I'm not like that. But I do think, in light of the mass duping that went on, the intoduction of the next top-tier weapons should be expidited.

This

I also think they should make some other simple changes
- make all phlogs BTA to encourage people to run it more and with multiple characters
- reduce the phlog requirement from 30 to 20
- allow people to trade shadow phlogs for fire phlogs and vice versa

[FuzzyDuck81]

I'd be satisfied if the only change was to make phlogs bound to account instead of character. A 2:1 exchange to swap one type for another would be nice too & not particularly unbalanced i think.

[slarden]

I don't really believe that many people duped phlogs, that can't be traded either so only the people who had the will and know how to do the dupe two step (dupe step?) Got easy T3s. Lots of those TF weapons are missing third tier still.

I would actually like to see them introduce a new type of phlog and scale/ingot ingredient if they were willing to tweak the system. They already have it setup for fire or shadow, nothing stoping them from making negative and positive or some such. The new affixes could use them.

I suggest this because of duping and because for whatever reason DDO Devs historically have almost zero likelihood to go back and improve poorly design systems. TF was made before they really started listening to the players. And almost none of the criticisms we had were addressed and the few that were were only given token improvment. DC'S for example. The presence of fixed DC'S on weapons is ********, either scale the DC with character level, or use proc chance to control how often it hits or scale the effect.

I think the single worst aspect of DDO's development history after being rushed out in alpha form, has to be the unwillingness to polish or update systems or content after the fact.

The amount of duping was staggering. They could be traded/mailed for a long time.

[janave]

I'd be satisfied if the only change was to make phlogs bound to account instead of character. A 2:1 exchange to swap one type for another would be nice too & not particularly unbalanced i think.

Yes, it should have been BtA from the beginning.
The swapping is also absolutely great idea, the only question is..
.. "why the players have to come up with this stuff"? :D

[legendkilleroll]

I don't really believe that many people duped phlogs, that can't be traded either so only the people who had the will and know how to do the dupe two step (dupe step?) Got easy T3s.

I think its more than you think, even now i see people changing builds each month, Bard then pally now barbs and each time its a new mortal fear weapon type, sure some may do it legit but its like 30+ raids for one weapon.


This

I also think they should make some other simple changes
- make all phlogs BTA to encourage people to run it more and with multiple characters
- reduce the phlog requirement from 30 to 20
- allow people to trade shadow phlogs for fire phlogs and vice versa

Yeh i made a thread other month about this, made same suggestions apart from the trading, like that idea too

[ToastyFred]

How about just not changing anything and accepting that there are certain Thunderforged items that are better than others? When the devs give us options, there is always one that is the better than the others for a given build. Greensteel crafting had options that were completely terrible and everyone loves it. There's no problem with Thunderforged crafting.

1. "Options" that people NEVER use because they are poor aren't REALLY options, are they?

2. In Greensteel crafting we had WAY more variety in things to make. This was great because there were customizations that gave even the most niche-fitting toons something cool. The amount of variety in TF crafting doesn't even come close to that in Greensteel crafting. What choices there are in TF are much easier to classify as useful and not useful. This, unfortunately, means there are a LOT of TF weapons that are all pretty much the same. No options in actuality.

I like the TF armors for some reason though.


Regarding Phlogs, my dwarf barb has a Tier 2 TF Maul. I honestly don't ever see him making the weapon Tier 3. 30 Phlogs is a LOT especially for a raid that isn't really run very often. Hopefully some lag fixes will encourage people to run the raid more but if the Devs introduce Epic Greensteel (Intelligent?) weapons too soon, those Thunderholm raids won't ever get run again.

[Seikojin]

How about not settling? How about having more DPS options than "max speed max procs". Unless you need the bad options in place to make it easy to choose the right ones or something. That's not an uncommon thing in MMO's I will admit.

GS is FAR more evenly designed than TF IMO, and also has far more varied and interesting options that are worth wild or were for long stretches of the games history.

The problem with your suggestions is more power creep rather than balancing. I think as it is, TF offer a wide horizontal spread of builds and playstyles options to be more competitive. And I am fine with that. I am sure Epic GS will be lvl 30 versions of the same, and sentient will be more horizontal nice abilities that fit specific playstyles.

[Tinco]

1. "Options" that people NEVER use because they are poor aren't REALLY options, are they?

2. In Greensteel crafting we had WAY more variety in things to make.

Not really. GS was Min II, Lit II (Boss/Non-Boss), Rad II for rogues and then "luxury crafts" like Pos/Earth II (that's maybe 6 useful crafts out of 21). Combined with the lacklustre caster itemization in terms of greensteel weapons and the lack of handwraps, GS was far from a good crafting system. If you also consider the mandatory nature of GS-Accessoires (exclusive giant HP/Mana bonuses) I really have a hard time not to think of the GS-love as serious cases of nostalgia.

Don't get me wrong, it was fine for the time and we all ran it often enough to not really remember the roadbumps anymore (in my first 20 shrouds I got no Large Scale) but an exact copy of it nowadays would probably annoy me a lot.

[IronClan]

The problem with your suggestions is more power creep rather than balancing. I think as it is, TF offer a wide horizontal spread of builds and playstyles options to be more competitive. And I am fine with that. I am sure Epic GS will be lvl 30 versions of the same, and sentient will be more horizontal nice abilities that fit specific playstyles.

There's no power added here, just alternative choices that are made more viable by improvements or moving to lower tiers where someone might actually craft them.

Wide spread playstyle options? Not at all. The only optimal use of TF weapons is Crit range + max alacrity... Because Mortal fear is far and away the best affix (massively favors high alacrity), and Cripling flames and Dragons Edge clear runners up (massively favor High crit ranges) and almost everything else sub-optimal/flavor by a lot (look at all those Breaker affixes that have quite literally NEVER BEEN CRAFTED (I can't find a single person who has). There is literally NO CURRENT combination that does not favor Wolf builds and Shuricannons, and Swashbucklers due to the high crit ranges, alacrity and doublestrike that TF's top three affixes are optimal in conjuntion with.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

i like your ideas here but id rather see them get all the class more balanced relative to each other than balancing a crafting system that will be obsolete sooner or later.

[IronClan]

Not really. GS was Min II, Lit II (Boss/Non-Boss), Rad II for rogues and then "luxury crafts" like Pos/Earth II (that's maybe 6 useful crafts out of 21). Combined with the lacklustre caster itemization in terms of greensteel weapons and the lack of handwraps, GS was far from a good crafting system. If you also consider the mandatory nature of GS-Accessoires (exclusive giant HP/Mana bonuses) I really have a hard time not to think of the GS-love as serious cases of nostalgia.


6 is a lot more than 2 and you're missing more than a few of the weapons that have fallen out of fashion due to the years leaving the DC's behind , or are compelling and still used to this day but not widespread (such as Sundering Ooze repeaters) .

What are you spending 30 phlogs on? Right Mortal Fear, anything else besides possibly Crippling flames and you've made a flavor weapon.

There is a reason that not one person can tell you what kind of DC Mind/Leg/Body Breaker might have, and no ones even asking Turbine what it is... No one would spend phlogs on it... not even duped phlogs LOL. There's a reason that no one even gives a ess that the Storm clickies SAY 5/rest in the description but only give 3/rest and yet no one even cares enough to complain... no one will waste 30 phlogs on them even if they were 5/rest.

[Powskier]

best weapons and there are so few choices for a build. WAI? Thundercrack is the worst addition...no variety - fire or neg ..or a spell build? I could care less if they nerfed whole thing, even though they are my best weapons by far. What happened to choices ?-like greensteel..maybe not that many choices ..seems like a zillion there;)

[QuantumFX]

While we’re at it, can we get the 2 hander effects added to Bows and crossbows? Yeah, I realize that pure offensive weapons will be more popular, but the constant shafting that Artificers get in the spellcasting department has gotten *really* old.

[legendkilleroll]

What are you spending 30 phlogs on? Right Mortal Fear, anything else besides possibly Crippling flames and you've made a flavor weapon.

I think Burning emptiness looks ok for 30 fire phlogs, for melee but not much else id think about from there

I agree and its not really hard to see that some of them are just horrible

[LavidDynch]

What happened to choices ?-like greensteel..maybe not that many choices ..seems like a zillion there;)

Green steel had choices?

It took two nerfs extending over a long period of time to bring out those choices. And still i prefer min2 for heroics.. 3x positive is also sweet but the amount of choices in GS is, and have always been, very slim.

Not saying that TF weapons, as in mortal fear, was one of Turbines shinier moments of pushing this game forward...

[Powskier]

Green steel had choices?

It took two nerfs extending over a long period of time to bring out those choices. And still i prefer min2 for heroics.. 3x positive is also sweet but the amount of choices in GS is, and have always been, very slim.

Not saying that TF weapons, as in mortal fear, was one of Turbines shinier moments of pushing this game forward...
i only made one GS so far, but it looked like all sorts of useful stuff in the list..just depends on what you want it for. Then there are all the different items you can GS..way more options for building..not lvl28 or whatever..but a ton more options there to customize your setup.

[mikarddo]

The main tweak that should happen is for Mortal Fear to be a flat 50% with no increase from mobs being stunned or otherwise. Once 30 becomes the cap and MF weapons can be used to level the current imho flawed implementation will be far too overpowered.

[janave]

Green steel had choices?

It took two nerfs extending over a long period of time to bring out those choices. And still i prefer min2 for heroics.. 3x positive is also sweet but the amount of choices in GS is, and have always been, very slim.

Not saying that TF weapons, as in mortal fear, was one of Turbines shinier moments of pushing this game forward...

Yep, as we now know "not all choices made equal" - saying this after telling us - "why balance is important" is also kinda odd imo.

The best all around greensteel would have been the disintegrate proc, less dmg but works on literally everything that isnt hard coded immune, the tier1/tier2 effects not so useful, acid is okay, but evil damage is useful in maybe 1 quest?

I would have definitely went that way instead of lit2 back when it was relevant. Lit2 only came out ahead because you got holy + the top spike proc, and the top content had few electric immune bosses, or at least not the important ones.

[IronClan]

Green steel had choices?

It took two nerfs extending over a long period of time to bring out those choices. And still i prefer min2 for heroics.. 3x positive is also sweet but the amount of choices in GS is, and have always been, very slim.

Not saying that TF weapons, as in mortal fear, was one of Turbines shinier moments of pushing this game forward...

So you're saying they had to adjust GS to balance more of the choices... I am saying the same thing.

Only instead of simply nerfing peoples hard earned (well some of them) weapons. I am proposing shuffling some of the stuff and buffing the most weak choices via addition or moving them lower or both. As well as adding 1 option for people who prefer big damage over buzzsaw max speed/proc builds. There's a reason why Paladin's, Swashbucklers, Shuricannon's and Wolf builds are very popular. All of them get increases in Doublestrike, Alacrity or attacks per animation (or all of the above), that takes the best advantage of the on hit and on crit design of TF's clear best choice affixes.

Long ago Someone made Icy Burst (fire, Acid etc.) on crit affixes scale with critical multiplier (1d6 for a X2 2d6 for a X3 etc.)

Then someone made Heartseeker/Ribcracker/Bloodletter on crit affixes scale with critical multiplier.

Then someone new made Dragons Edge and Crippling Flames and had no clue about scaling with crit multiplier, and refused to accept the information the player base was giving them as to why this was necessary and tremendously unbalancing without it.

So now we have a end game crafting system where a Dwarf is better off with a Falchion or a Scimmy and 12 AP's saved than a Axe or a Pick + 12AP's in racial weapons. But more than that, he's better off as a human with a Khopesh than as a Dwarf...

I guess if the options are to improve it or leave it alone, or obsolete it with Greensteel and they are unwilling to polish this dud. I will gladly take "obsolete it with Green Steel" In that case you can't make TF obsolete fast enough... here's hoping they listen to player feedback on the next system.

Of course the problem with obsoleting loot and refusing to revisit it or update it, is that no one bothers running the content any more, just like Alchemical Weapons, and challenge items... the entire House C pack/challenges is a ghosttown these days...

So lets crumple up Thunderholme into a ball and do a fade away jumper with it into the round file where it can join House C, Restless Isles and Shavarath and all the other disposable content in DDO's virtual landfill*.

* Only, maybe they should remove these disposable map packs from the store so they don't accidentally get newbies buying it, expecting to actually find LFM's. We wouldn't want new players to feel ripped off after they stepped on one of those obsolete map pack land mines in the store... Oh wait

[Ausdoerrt]

I wouldn't tweak it per se but I wouldn't mind if another raid dropped for example ice dragon phlogs for more available choices. No need for a total new system every new raid. Yes, your green steel was awesome that doesn't mean that EVERY SINGLE RAID YOU COME UP WITH has to have new crafting system.

Good idea.

[Wizza]

It's too late to make these changes, unless you are giving everyone one thousand phlogistons and two millions ingots to remake our hard earned TF weapons.

Or they could lower the ingots/Phlogs requirements togheter with increasing their drop rates, much easier to do.

[lyrecono]

As far as I can tell (I've posted, asked around) no one has crafted a TF weapon with T3 Mind breaker, Body or Leg breaker. Probably because no one can tell what they actually do or how they function, and they sound pretty weak, being poorly described doesn't help. Competing against Mortal Fear one of the more unbalanced "must have" affixes. Who's going to spend 30 phlogs on what appears to be a 5% proc that has a DC (which means it's a lot lower than 5% chance) when you can get clearly better on crit procs (which is a minimum of 10% chance but far more likely to be 20-30%) or no save 5% Mortal fear procs? They makes no sense as T3's and with a DC or even competing with each other as leg breaker is clearly inferior to Mind, and Body clearly inferior to either of those. There are several other weaknesses and oddly uneven choices. So that in mind here's some suggestions for some mostly easy minor tweaks.

(snipped list)

Do you honnestly trust them to make this work? Would you want them to divert man hours away from developing new content?


How about having a raid/crafting system where 90% of the people with top tier weapons AREN'T using duped ingredients to finish them?

Not necessarily because they want to dupe, but because The absurdly low drop rates did nothing but encourage them to dupe!

increase the drop rate for phlogs and folk might be more inclined to try out the more obscure combinations, and honest players might get to finish their weapons

If I ever get another 30 shadow phlogs I'm going to make another mortal fear weapon, it took me a year to make the first, and I'm not wasting them on something that might well be garbage.
meanwhile I encounter people with multiple weapons..........
Man up, learn to play/build/gear/select party members better
I have ran 3 of those raids a day in order to get what i needed and more, just like we did when the shroud came out.
i have stacks of tier 2's and nearly 2 tier 3's on my important alts, my main has 3.
Don't blame others for your lack of.....ing bag contents


This
(snipped)
- allow people to trade shadow phlogs for fire phlogs and vice versa
So that people only run 1 raid instead of 2? (since 1 is faster then the other)


1. "Options" that people NEVER use because they are poor aren't REALLY options, are they?

2. In Greensteel crafting we had WAY more variety in things to make. This was great because there were customizations that gave even the most niche-fitting toons something cool. The amount of variety in TF crafting doesn't even come close to that in Greensteel crafting. What choices there are in TF are much easier to classify as useful and not useful. This, unfortunately, means there are a LOT of TF weapons that are all pretty much the same. No options in actuality.

I like the TF armors for some reason though.


Regarding Phlogs, my dwarf barb has a Tier 2 TF Maul. I honestly don't ever see him making the weapon Tier 3. 30 Phlogs is a LOT especially for a raid that isn't really run very often. Hopefully some lag fixes will encourage people to run the raid more but if the Devs introduce Epic Greensteel (Intelligent?) weapons too soon, those Thunderholm raids won't ever get run again.
I agree, the implementation of thunderforged crafting is really poor, we told the developers that. To be fair, they had only fire and negative to work with, it's not like the lob/ma crafting with all the elements but no hidden combo's like the shroud


There's no power added here, just alternative choices that are made more viable by improvements or moving to lower tiers where someone might actually craft them.

Wide spread playstyle options? Not at all. The only optimal use of TF weapons is Crit range + max alacrity... Because Mortal fear is far and away the best affix (massively favors high alacrity), and Cripling flames and Dragons Edge clear runners up (massively favor High crit ranges) and almost everything else sub-optimal/flavor by a lot (look at all those Breaker affixes that have quite literally NEVER BEEN CRAFTED (I can't find a single person who has). There is literally NO CURRENT combination that does not favor Wolf builds and Shuricannons, and Swashbucklers due to the high crit ranges, alacrity and doublestrike that TF's top three affixes are optimal in conjuntion with.

I totaly agree, many weapon procs benefit from a high rate of attack, they should nerf all those speed abbusing builds.


best weapons and there are so few choices for a build. WAI? Thundercrack is the worst addition...no variety - fire or neg ..or a spell build? I could care less if they nerfed whole thing, even though they are my best weapons by far. What happened to choices ?-like greensteel..maybe not that many choices ..seems like a zillion there;)
They only made 2 elements to work with, we adressed them on that. nothing changed


So you're saying they had to adjust GS to balance more of the choices... I am saying the same thing.

Only instead of simply nerfing peoples hard earned (well some of them) weapons. I am proposing shuffling some of the stuff and buffing the most weak choices via addition or moving them lower or both. As well as adding 1 option for people who prefer big damage over buzzsaw max speed/proc builds. There's a reason why Paladin's, Swashbucklers, Shuricannon's and Wolf builds are very popular. All of them get increases in Doublestrike, Alacrity or attacks per animation (or all of the above), that takes the best advantage of the on hit and on crit design of TF's clear best choice affixes.

Long ago Someone made Icy Burst (fire, Acid etc.) on crit affixes scale with critical multiplier (1d6 for a X2 2d6 for a X3 etc.)

Then someone made Heartseeker/Ribcracker/Bloodletter on crit affixes scale with critical multiplier.

Then someone new made Dragons Edge and Crippling Flames and had no clue about scaling with crit multiplier, and refused to accept the information the player base was giving them as to why this was necessary and tremendously unbalancing without it.

So now we have a end game crafting system where a Dwarf is better off with a Falchion or a Scimmy and 12 AP's saved than a Axe or a Pick + 12AP's in racial weapons. But more than that, he's better off as a human with a Khopesh than as a Dwarf...

I guess if the options are to improve it or leave it alone, or obsolete it with Greensteel and they are unwilling to polish this dud. I will gladly take "obsolete it with Green Steel" In that case you can't make TF obsolete fast enough... here's hoping they listen to player feedback on the next system.

Of course the problem with obsoleting loot and refusing to revisit it or update it, is that no one bothers running the content any more, just like Alchemical Weapons, and challenge items... the entire House C pack/challenges is a ghosttown these days...

So lets crumple up Thunderholme into a ball and do a fade away jumper with it into the round file where it can join House C, Restless Isles and Shavarath and all the other disposable content in DDO's virtual landfill*.

* Only, maybe they should remove these disposable map packs from the store so they don't accidentally get newbies buying it, expecting to actually find LFM's. We wouldn't want new players to feel ripped off after they stepped on one of those obsolete map pack land mines in the store... Oh wait

Alchemicals biggest fail was the design of the wilderness area (too long), the lack of crafting options and combinations, the min level as it has to compete with easier to get yet just as powerful (if not more) gear at that level while shroud weapons could be equiped at lv 8 (later 12). (imho)

the new system will be thought out, build and presented for bug testing on lamania, if the past 4 years have been any indication, all advice will be ignored unless it's broken, then we'll get 2-3 hotfixes with nerfs.

as for the ghost towns, people see the benefit of past lives in harder content. Pastlives cost time to acquire, so exp per minute becomes a factor, (with notable exceptions) most of that stuff is use impaired, low exp or low exp per minute (houce C quests/raids) so the choice to do something better is easily made.

[Catteras]

i like your ideas here but id rather see them get all the class more balanced relative to each other than balancing a crafting system that will be obsolete sooner or later.

If they do "re-balance" TF weapons, then my next paycheck says they nerf mortal fear in the process. So in my book, this is the #1 reason for them to leave it alone (for all the players who got their T3 weapons legitimately).

Me? If all they do this entire year is bring Cannith Crafting up to speed, I'll be happy.

[Tesrali]

awesome post OP good ideas

the dragon breath clickies are obscene as tier 3

the crit range stuff seems quite balanced imo

I think changes to draconic reinvigoration are unnecessary---I already find that it is very powerful.

ymmv on all this stuff

I think the easy fixes should be implemented, and the more complicated ones, i.e., crit range changes and DC changes---left alone.

[Eth]

the dragon breath clickies are obscene as tier 3

We can't have pure artificer builds sporting 50 dragonbreath quarterstaffs spitting around everywhere! Tier 3 is fine.

[IronClan]

We can't have pure artificer builds sporting 50 dragonbreath quarterstaffs spitting around everywhere! Tier 3 is fine.

The game contains a dozen items that address this theoretical type of concern by making the item exclusive. Why do players on the forums always love these wacky worst case scenarios that are easily countered by things they already often use to avoid the same sorts of things?

"we can't have a Twisted Talisman, people will run around with 50 of them and the world would implode" :rolleyes:

Personally I find the visual of someone actually creating a bunch of these for 3 charges at a time to be almost worthy of a real actual out loud burst of laughter... Only the wife would wonder *** and I would have to explain... and... nah

[SirValentine]

While we’re at it, can we get the 2 hander effects added to Bows and crossbows?


Wait, what? You mean they don't already? I hope you've bug-reported it.

[slarden]

So that people only run 1 raid instead of 2? (since 1 is faster then the other)

Nope - you are missing the point. So they run BOTH raids when they are off timer instead of just the raid that drops the phlogs they need. Of course it would have a 2 for 1 turn-in so there would be no incentive to do what you are suggesting.

[IronClan]

Wait, what? You mean they don't already? I hope you've bug-reported it.

Yeah can anyone confirm this? I was actually considering making a two handed DC/casting stick with a Bow instead of something else because the toon has always used a Bow as backup (Elf used to be AA), and I don't use concentration skill at all... so naked TF + MOD quiver is better than Pinion for this toon... Leaving me free to choose casting stats and still have an okayish bow DPS.

[Chai]

The game contains a dozen items that address this theoretical type of concern by making the item exclusive. Why do players on the forums always love these wacky worst case scenarios that are easily countered by things they already often use to avoid the same sorts of things?

"we can't have a Twisted Talisman, people will run around with 50 of them and the world would implode" :rolleyes:

Personally I find the visual of someone actually creating a bunch of these for 3 charges at a time to be almost worthy of a real actual out loud burst of laughter... Only the wife would wonder *** and I would have to explain... and... nah

His concern has historical precedence, as tons of displacement clickys were made in the shroud for melee characters. We know they can put "exclusive" on a looted item, but can they make it so crafted items with that effect are exclusive only to other crafted items with that same effect, but will not limit other TF items?

[Eth]

The game contains a dozen items that address this theoretical type of concern by making the item exclusive. Why do players on the forums always love these wacky worst case scenarios that are easily countered by things they already often use to avoid the same sorts of things?

"we can't have a Twisted Talisman, people will run around with 50 of them and the world would implode" :rolleyes:

Personally I find the visual of someone actually creating a bunch of these for 3 charges at a time to be almost worthy of a real actual out loud burst of laughter... Only the wife would wonder *** and I would have to explain... and... nah

I actually didn't expect anyone to take my comment seriously, but OK.
That aside though, since when are Thunderforged items exclusive?

[slarden]

His concern has historical precedence, as tons of displacement clickys were made in the shroud for melee characters. We know they can put "exclusive" on a looted item, but can they make it so crafted items with that effect are exclusive only to other crafted items with that same effect, but will not limit other TF items?

The displacement clickies pre-date the change when displacement became a "self-only" spell. It also pre-dates artificers that can use clickies as if they were level 20 of that class.

I think the concern over displacement clickies is overblown. It's fairly rare to see a caster in a robe recently so the entire class-specific argument has been invalidated by many things.

Clickies are one of the reasons shroud continues be run more than many new raids.

[IronClan]

His concern has historical precedence, as tons of displacement clickys were made in the shroud for melee characters. We know they can put "exclusive" on a looted item, but can they make it so crafted items with that effect are exclusive only to other crafted items with that same effect, but will not limit other TF items?

Based on something said on the PC coincidentally about Displacement GS clickies I would infer yes they can.


I actually didn't expect anyone to take my comment seriously, but OK.
That aside though, since when are Thunderforged items exclusive?

Ah well you can hardly blame me for thinking it was serious, I don't know if anyone else feels worn out by needing to put disclaimers and footnotes, and coverass statements in every post to fend off the pedantic. After a while you just take it for granted that any exception or edge case will be brought up as a reason to not do stuff.

Another thing brought up to not do stuff is "the Dev's probably don't have the expertise/time/technology" something that can only be badly guessed at unless a Dev actually says it. Unless you're looking at their resumes/work schedule/code base... We should let them worry about that stuff, if a suggestion can't happen so be it.

All I know is they managed to find "free time" to improve Hall of Heroes (literally done on a Dev's whim because they felt like it in their free time, I know this because I apearently insulted the Dev in question on the PC because I didn't know they did stuff like that and assumed some manager type prioritized work on Hall of Heroes), so I am not going to limit suggestions based on the percieved importance or lack thereof of an idea.

[Postumus]

How about just not changing anything and accepting that there are certain Thunderforged items that are better than others? When the devs give us options, there is always one that is the better than the others for a given build. Greensteel crafting had options that were completely terrible and everyone loves it. There's no problem with Thunderforged crafting.



I agree.

[Severlin]

The crafting systems we are focusing on in the coming year are Greensteel and hopefully Cannith crafting. We probably won't have time to delve into Thunderforged, at least not until the others are finished.

Sev~

[Tinco]

The crafting systems we are focusing on in the coming year are Greensteel and hopefully Cannith crafting. We probably won't have time to delve into Thunderforged, at least not until the others are finished.

Sev~

Will you cap the damage of mortal fear later or just brute force overpower it in lvl 30 content? It's a lot like the old vorpal in that it basically ignores monster scaling.

[UurlockYgmeov]

The crafting systems we are focusing on in the coming year are Greensteel and hopefully Cannith crafting. We probably won't have time to delve into Thunderforged, at least not until the others are finished.

Sev~

sounds good. so far the work on lag seems to be having a positive effect. keep it up!

[ToastyFred]

Will you cap the damage of mortal fear later or just brute force overpower it in lvl 30 content? It's a lot like the old vorpal in that it basically ignores monster scaling.

MF doesn't work against Red names or Purple names. It may or may not work against Orange names, I don't know. Never have gotten enough Phlogs to find out.

I know it works against trash though so I'd really like to know what your problem is with people knocking trash monsters HP in half with but a single swing? Seriously, it's only TRASH.

If it works against Orange nameds too, do you REALLY care about knocking their HP in half with one swing too?? If so, I suggest refocusing your concerns about the game on things that REALLY matter like eliminating lag, demanding new content, and encouraging more races and classes.

[slarden]

The crafting systems we are focusing on in the coming year are Greensteel and hopefully Cannith crafting. We probably won't have time to delve into Thunderforged, at least not until the others are finished.

Sev~

If it's possible to do one thing - make the phlogs BTA - that would allow us to run on alts and would make me run the raid more - probably others too. I am not sure if that is easy - but if it is - it might be worth considering.

[LevelJ]

I wouldn't tweak it per se but I wouldn't mind if another raid dropped for example ice dragon phlogs for more available choices. No need for a total new system every new raid. Yes, your green steel was awesome that doesn't mean that EVERY SINGLE RAID YOU COME UP WITH has to have new crafting system.

I completely agree with this, mostly because I have been wanting a true ice-themed pack for a while now (Not Epic Korthos, just something new). If anything, expanding a system like this might encourage running the raids a bit more.

On OP's suggestions...it sounds intriguing, but shifting effects around the various tiers might cause issues. Granted, they would be very few issues due to the lack of use those abilities get.


-J

[IronClan]

The crafting systems we are focusing on in the coming year are Greensteel and hopefully Cannith crafting. We probably won't have time to delve into Thunderforged, at least not until the others are finished.

Sev~

Awesome to know it might get looked at, can we make sure that GS weapons allow more viable options than just max affixes and procs that are more significant than base damage, which emphasizes crit range/speed/doublestrike?

I think there's highly neglected design space (Weapon and Enhancement wise) in allowing players to emphasize big first number hits over buzz saw affix damage, which is suppressed with TF not having any crafting options for this.

I also think there's a third almost totally ignored design space for weapon crafting in DDO... the "right tool for the job" golf bag of weapons which GS had going for it if a player wanted to craft more than one, and many did.

To be quite honest my intent with this thread is to call attention to TF's shortcomings so that hopefully GS/Sentient Weapons do not have the same flaws in not serving more than one design space.

[Eryhn]

The crafting systems we are focusing on in the coming year are Greensteel and hopefully Cannith crafting. We probably won't have time to delve into Thunderforged, at least not until the others are finished.

Sev~

I'm totally fine with that order of priorities and much lookin forward to Cannith Overhaul. HOWEVER, should you ever touch the TF things again, one very small thing would add immense quality of life:
Add an option to deconstruct already crafted weapons back into a partial amount of the original mats, like it exists with Estar challenges and GS.
thank you.

[Wizza]

The crafting systems we are focusing on in the coming year are Greensteel and hopefully Cannith crafting. We probably won't have time to delve into Thunderforged, at least not until the others are finished.

Sev~

Don't forget the deconstruct option.

[Eth]

Don't forget the deconstruct option.

This!
Tier 3 Arcane Lore XVII.
U23 - Arcane Lore XVII available on necklace.
Thanks Turbine.

[Tinco]

Seriously, it's only TRASH.

I'm sure the lag guys are great content developers at the same time. New weapons/crafting systems have to be desirable, simple as that. An enchantment like mf in the game makes it hard, because uncapped it will always -by design- be a contender for the best weapon available. What you call trash is about 80%-90% of the time we fight in quests.

[mikarddo]

MF doesn't work against Red names or Purple names. It may or may not work against Orange names, I don't know. Never have gotten enough Phlogs to find out.

I know it works against trash though so I'd really like to know what your problem is with people knocking trash monsters HP in half with but a single swing? Seriously, it's only TRASH.

If it works against Orange nameds too, do you REALLY care about knocking their HP in half with one swing too?? If so, I suggest refocusing your concerns about the game on things that REALLY matter like eliminating lag, demanding new content, and encouraging more races and classes.

The issue with MF isnt as much the 50% of current damage it does - its that it gets extra damage from mobs being helpless, sense weakness etc. This means that its not uncommon for a MF proc to fully kill a mob (e.g. Magma Brutes on EE getting hit for 200k+ insta killing them). Make MF a flat 50% with no possible increase and it would probably be ok or atleast much closer to reasonable.

MF being 28 means the problem is minimal atm - but once the cap is raised to 30 the use for MF weapons broadens considerably.

Thus MF needs some very serious consideration before anything supposedly high end can be designed.

[Jiirix]

TF weapons are fine to me, maybe Mortal Fear should be only 3% to balance things a bit, but that's all.

[Tom116]

The crafting systems we are focusing on in the coming year are Greensteel and hopefully Cannith crafting. We probably won't have time to delve into Thunderforged, at least not until the others are finished.

Sev~

Great to hear Cannith Crafting is being looked at, I love the idea but it doesn't do much part L10 at this point, other than a few specific recipes :)

[Morrell]

I love the TF handwraps so I know crafting can work with handwraps. Can you please find a way to share the love and make GS handwraps? At least, with the upcoming epic greensteel?

Pretty please with a kobold on top...? /beg /grovel

[MageDNA]

The crafting systems we are focusing on in the coming year are Greensteel and hopefully Cannith crafting. We probably won't have time to delve into Thunderforged, at least not until the others are finished.

Sev~

Very nice to hear that cannith crafting will get some attention! The one and only crafting methode in this great game deserves some love I guess : )

By the way, some mentoined that lag is gone. True, the game runs perfecly in my side. Actually I run it on a self crafted PC. Yes! I crafted my pc! I hade to gather the crafting mats, the 1200 euro, then I went to the crafting station, I put the euro on the workbench and my PC was ready to use. It's a great crafting methode! Craft your own PC as well!

Please, cannith crafting first of all! : ) It's great if it's balanced that what the kobold gives you for your collected items at the harbour, it's nice if it gets attention that what items gives the greensteel collector, or what necklace you can get from the npc in necroposis....But a great game like ddo have to have a viable crafting system what could serve a player all over his adventures and in endgame as well. And the one and only crafting system what ddo has is cannith.

[slarden]

The issue with MF isnt as much the 50% of current damage it does - its that it gets extra damage from mobs being helpless, sense weakness etc. This means that its not uncommon for a MF proc to fully kill a mob (e.g. Magma Brutes on EE getting hit for 200k+ insta killing them). Make MF a flat 50% with no possible increase and it would probably be ok or atleast much closer to reasonable.

Yes this is the issue. Rogue levels for No Mercy + Sense Weakness Twist + Mortal Fear = amazing

[ToastyFred]

The issue with MF isnt as much the 50% of current damage it does - its that it gets extra damage from mobs being helpless, sense weakness etc. This means that its not uncommon for a MF proc to fully kill a mob (e.g. Magma Brutes on EE getting hit for 200k+ insta killing them). Make MF a flat 50% with no possible increase and it would probably be ok or atleast much closer to reasonable.

Yes this is the issue. Rogue levels for No Mercy + Sense Weakness Twist + Mortal Fear = amazing

Ok, now this line of reasoning makes sense to me. I was unaware of the extra damage that could process "through" a MF proc.

Thanks.

[Thar]

As far as I can tell (I've posted, asked around) no one has crafted a TF weapon with T3 Mind breaker, Body or Leg breaker. Probably because no one can tell what they actually do or how they function, and they sound pretty weak, being poorly described doesn't help. Competing against Mortal Fear one of the more unbalanced "must have" affixes. Who's going to spend 30 phlogs on what appears to be a 5% proc that has a DC (which means it's a lot lower than 5% chance) when you can get clearly better on crit procs (which is a minimum of 10% chance but far more likely to be 20-30%) or no save 5% Mortal fear procs? They makes no sense as T3's and with a DC or even competing with each other as leg breaker is clearly inferior to Mind, and Body clearly inferior to either of those. There are several other weaknesses and oddly uneven choices. So that in mind here's some suggestions for some mostly easy minor tweaks.

T1


Move: Body Breaker from T3 to T1 change it to a 5% chance of no save improved Sunder proc with a +1 bonus to general tactics DC
Move: T2 Augment Green/Red slot choice and make it T1 this is a terrible T2 but would make a pretty competitive T1 choice.
New: Keen (as the random loot prefix) basically saves you a a feat slot, or allows a multi weapon fighter the versatility to use say a blunt weapon without having to take IC:blunt in addition to his main IC: Slash, or what have you.
Change: Blinding Fear to allow it to proc on Cleaves on more than 1 mob. On hit -1 to mob saves for 6 secs
New: Dwarven Tempering +1 Enhancement bonus +2 Dwaven Seeker (this is part of a new upgrade path for players who value 1st number damage over affixes and procs, giving us a choice for lower weapon speed/big crits in a crafting system that currently overemphasizes affixes, and attack speed and getting as many % Proc chances as possible)


T2

Change: Dragons Blessing on ANY targeted spellcast 5% chance of proc'ing a Mass Regenerate as druid spell benefits from casters devotion and lore
Move: Leg Breaker into T2 give it a straight 2% chance to trip no save and a passive +1 stacking bonus to tactics DC's
Remove: DC 50 from "wrath" abilities adjust AOE damage as needed
New: Dwarven Honed +1 Enhancement Bonus, +4 Dwarven Seeker stacks with other "Dwarven quality" choices
Move: all "Storm" T3's to T2 and make them 5 per rest as they are described. All storm clickies take Caster spell power and crit chance.


T3


Change: Mind Breaker into a 2% chance to proc mass hold monster no save +1 stacking bonus to Tactics, if any 2 Breaker abilities are taken then tactical feat cooldowns are reduced by 10%
Change: Draconic Re-invigoration cools off at 60 seconds instead of 100, can now recharge 1 use/charge of a clickie held in the hand per 120 seconds (aimed at Storm clickies)
New: Dwarven Runes/Incantations +1 Enhancement, +4 Dwarven Seeker if T1 and T2 Dwarven quality choices are taken then you can choose between Dwarven Incantations +1 Crit range or Dwarven Runes X1 Crit multiplier (this basically results in a "clean" TF weapon having similar attraction as a classic "clean" +5 weapon or eSoS, Adaxus etc.)


You forgot the armors. There can be no fairness for light armor/medium armor users with the current build restrictions. the 30 dr armor must be made available to all. at least all melee armors...

In addition, we need shield crafting for bucklers, light, heavy, tower at end game. Who better than dwarved and a forge to have this ability.

[Highlander]

As far as I can tell (I've posted, asked around) no one has crafted a TF weapon with T3 Mind breaker, Body or Leg breaker. Probably because no one can tell what they actually do or how they function, and they sound pretty weak, being poorly described doesn't help. Competing against Mortal Fear one of the more unbalanced "must have" affixes. Who's going to spend 30 phlogs on what appears to be a 5% proc that has a DC (which means it's a lot lower than 5% chance) when you can get clearly better on crit procs (which is a minimum of 10% chance but far more likely to be 20-30%) or no save 5% Mortal fear procs? They makes no sense as T3's and with a DC or even competing with each other as leg breaker is clearly inferior to Mind, and Body clearly inferior to either of those. There are several other weaknesses and oddly uneven choices. So that in mind here's some suggestions for some mostly easy minor tweaks.

T1


Move: Body Breaker from T3 to T1 change it to a 5% chance of no save improved Sunder proc with a +1 bonus to general tactics DC
Move: T2 Augment Green/Red slot choice and make it T1 this is a terrible T2 but would make a pretty competitive T1 choice.
New: Keen (as the random loot prefix) basically saves you a a feat slot, or allows a multi weapon fighter the versatility to use say a blunt weapon without having to take IC:blunt in addition to his main IC: Slash, or what have you.
Change: Blinding Fear to allow it to proc on Cleaves on more than 1 mob. On hit -1 to mob saves for 6 secs
New: Dwarven Tempering +1 Enhancement bonus +2 Dwaven Seeker (this is part of a new upgrade path for players who value 1st number damage over affixes and procs, giving us a choice for lower weapon speed/big crits in a crafting system that currently overemphasizes affixes, and attack speed and getting as many % Proc chances as possible)


T2

Change: Dragons Blessing on ANY targeted spellcast 5% chance of proc'ing a Mass Regenerate as druid spell benefits from casters devotion and lore
Move: Leg Breaker into T2 give it a straight 2% chance to trip no save and a passive +1 stacking bonus to tactics DC's
Remove: DC 50 from "wrath" abilities adjust AOE damage as needed
New: Dwarven Honed +1 Enhancement Bonus, +4 Dwarven Seeker stacks with other "Dwarven quality" choices
Move: all "Storm" T3's to T2 and make them 5 per rest as they are described. All storm clickies take Caster spell power and crit chance.


T3


Change: Mind Breaker into a 2% chance to proc mass hold monster no save +1 stacking bonus to Tactics, if any 2 Breaker abilities are taken then tactical feat cooldowns are reduced by 10%
Change: Draconic Re-invigoration cools off at 60 seconds instead of 100, can now recharge 1 use/charge of a clickie held in the hand per 120 seconds (aimed at Storm clickies)
New: Dwarven Runes/Incantations +1 Enhancement, +4 Dwarven Seeker if T1 and T2 Dwarven quality choices are taken then you can choose between Dwarven Incantations +1 Crit range or Dwarven Runes X1 Crit multiplier (this basically results in a "clean" TF weapon having similar attraction as a classic "clean" +5 weapon or eSoS, Adaxus etc.)



Ironclan,

I think these are very good suggestions and its a shame that Sev does not have it on his radar as I would have thought the work on this would be quite minimal, particularly with the help of the PC to test and advise on it.
The system already exists and this could be considered a refinement pass - no harm in balancing/rebalancing. Anyone affected directly with existing items should be able to get their mats back and recraft at a Stone of Change etc.

I see that some argue that not all needs to equal, but I think your point adequately addresses the fact that some of the abilities are (a) not even clear what they do and (b) have no use whatsoever even to flavor builds. Therefore they're just wasted dev effort as they stand.

As you suggest, no power creep needed, just more viable choices will make the TF system better.
More choices creates more options which is great, but the choices need to be useable.

The longer they leave it, the more people will be affected if they do change it.

When the mats are so hard to earn, it really is annoying to find the added ability is useless or bugged.