I would like to propose a workaround to the moronic hireling issue.

[Inoctus]

We've all experienced it- hirelings have recently been "buffed" with the decision-making ability of a lobotomized turnip. They have all the survival instinct of a lemming, and the situational awareness of helen keller (that might be the single worst thing i've ever said).

Hirelings are, at best, absolutely useless 50% of the time. They've even become a liability in many instances. Raise your hand if you've ever watched in horrified fascination as a hireling simply runs repeatedly into a group of mobs while you spam recall only to have her run right back into them again. o/
Raise your hand if you've ever sat there for ten minutes at a time, simply waiting to see if your 6-hp hireling will heal herself, knowing that eventually you're going to get tired of watching her stand there motionless, and have to order her to heal herself. o/
Raise your hand if you've ever had a hireling charge headlong into a trap, despite the fact that she's toggled to hold her ground*. o/
Raise your hand if a hireling has cost you flawless victory XP four times in a row, until you're so demoralized that you just quit recalling and resetting the quest. o/

now raise your hand if every single one of these things has happened to you just in the last two hours. o/

Hirelings are the single most frustratingly broken thing in DDO, and they have been for a while. Everyone from player's council members to new players has noticed it and complained. And yet turbine remains unable or unwilling to institute a fix. Well, I'd like to propose a workaround until something changes.

Step 1) gather all the coders responsible for the hireling AI.
Step 2) roll them up some cleric characters.
Step 3) chain the coders to their computer chairs and force them to play a healbot for any character that buys a cleric contract.
Step 4) Anytime their contractor dies, they receive a 50,000 volt jolt. Every time they run into a trap, 50K volts. Running ahead of their contractor into a previously unaggroed group of mobs? You better believe that's 50,000 volts.

It's not perfect, but but it's better than Marissa Lorle, right?

*not just toggled to hold your ground, but with her AI customized. I had only heal spell toggled. I wasn't allowing her to attack, use her wand of searing light, or even raise dead. Literally the only decision i was allowing her to make was to heal...and yet she still made a beeline for two trolls in the middles of the force-trapped bridge in Grey Moons Den. This was, of course, thirty seconds before I completed the quest and *after* three previous attempts in which she died stupidly and horribly early on.

[LuKaSu]

We've all experienced it- hirelings have recently been "buffed" with the decision-making ability of a lobotomized turnip. They have all the survival instinct of a lemming, and the situational awareness of helen keller (that might be the single worst thing i've ever said).

Hirelings are, at best, absolutely useless 50% of the time. They've even become a liability in many instances. Raise your hand if you've ever watched in horrified fascination as a hireling simply runs repeatedly into a group of mobs while you spam recall only to have her run right back into them again. o/
Raise your hand if you've ever sat there for ten minutes at a time, simply waiting to see if your 6-hp hireling will heal herself, knowing that eventually you're going to get tired of watching her stand there motionless, and have to order her to heal herself. o/
Raise your hand if you've ever had a hireling charge headlong into a trap, despite the fact that she's toggled to hold her ground*. o/
Raise your hand if a hireling has cost you flawless victory XP four times in a row, until you're so demoralized that you just quit recalling and resetting the quest. o/

now raise your hand if every single one of these things has happened to you just in the last two hours. o/

Hirelings are the single most frustratingly broken thing in DDO, and they have been for a while. Everyone from player's council members to new players has noticed it and complained. And yet turbine remains unable or unwilling to institute a fix. Well, I'd like to propose a workaround until something changes.

Step 1) gather all the coders responsible for the hireling AI.
Step 2) roll them up some cleric characters.
Step 3) chain the coders to their computer chairs and force them to play a healbot for any character that buys a cleric contract.
Step 4) Anytime their contractor dies, they receive a 50,000 volt jolt. Every time they run into a trap, 50K volts. Running ahead of their contractor into a previously unaggroed group of mobs? You better believe that's 50,000 volts.

It's not perfect, but but it's better than Marissa Lorle, right?

*not just toggled to hold your ground, but with her AI customized. I had only heal spell toggled. I wasn't allowing her to attack, use her wand of searing light, or even raise dead. Literally the only decision i was allowing her to make was to heal...and yet she still made a beeline for two trolls in the middles of the force-trapped bridge in Grey Moons Den. This was, of course, thirty seconds before I completed the quest and *after* three previous attempts in which she died stupidly and horribly early on.

I don't know if you've ever worked in an office situation where someone else dictates to you what you have to do, but imagine you were one of them. Your boss says "Upgrade the hireling AI". You try, but you get something wrong. Now it needs fixed. Some random guy on the forums threaten you with violence to try to convince you to fix your stuff. You still have to do what your boss wants. He or she still calls the shots. Not the forum guy or even the coder themselves.

You were doing well with your first half of your post -- pointing out various problems with the hireling AI -- but many times, people respond better to polite requests for help a lot better than with suggestions of vengeance (especially vengeance that would make it even harder for anyone to fix your problems)

(I know, I know, you wouldn't really do it, and you're just expressing your frustration, but still, polite requests -- especially constructive requests -- tend to work best)

[dunklezhan]

Hirelings are the single most frustratingly broken thing in DDO, and they have been for a while. Everyone from player's council members to new players has noticed it and complained. And yet turbine remains unable or unwilling to institute a fix. Well, I'd like to propose a workaround until something changes.



1. its not 'hirelings' so much, it's 'the AI'. How many times have all those same kinds of silly things happened to a mob? Many times. Often, even. And what do we do? We mock them and murder them happily, claiming it as a win. But 90%+ of the time they do what's expected.
2. AI is hard. they're quite a lot better than they have been in the past, and now I've learned to wait for the post-teleport cooldown before giving them any other instructions, they seem pretty predictable now. That's not quite the same as "effective", but still - if you know how their AI is supposed to work, then I'd say, just like mobs, 90%+ of the time they do what is expected. The rest of the time... pff. AI, man. I'd rather that stuff was too dumb than too smart, ya know? :) *
3. it IS frustrating how easily their spells can be interrupted compared to caster mobs. They all need at least another 20 ranks in concentration.



*I also know that real AI is not even close to what we have in DDO for hireling/mob scripts, ok? I was being facetious to try to illustrate that some people's expectations of the AI in DDO is way, way higher than is realistic. Its pretty **** good compared to a lot of MMOs though, for sure.

[Connman]

Hey OP here you go, this is the real world work around to "hires are dumb yo!" (yes I know they are)

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah42/bc7902098/lfm_zps3436a561.jpg

Of course if you treat the people in game with the same respect you treat the people who are actually required to read these forums, yes some guys boss actually made him read this, I can understand how the LFM panel might not be working out for you. Of course I could be wrong, my post on "Tone" really spells it out about forum posting.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/455487-The-main-problem-with-forums-is-the-loss-of-tone

[Inoctus]

Hey OP here you go, this is the real world work around to "hires are dumb yo!" (yes I know they are)

http://i1377.photobucket.com/albums/ah42/bc7902098/lfm_zps3436a561.jpg

Of course if you treat the people in game with the same respect you treat the people who are actually required to read these forums, yes some guys boss actually made him read this, I can understand how the LFM panel might not be working out for you. Of course I could be wrong, my post on "Tone" really spells it out about forum posting.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/455487-The-main-problem-with-forums-is-the-loss-of-tone

yep! Post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek (I was hoping the simpsons reference would help with that). Yes, i'm frustrated at the lack of reliability for hirelings. No, not so frustrated I'm advocating electro-torture on some poor innocent coder (although making the ai coders solo from 1-20 with a party full of their own creations would be some deliciously ironic justice...). No, the LFM is not the solve-all for this problem. some quests are just unpopular and will not draw players- let alone competent healing.

[Severlin]

All engineering resources are tied up with chasing down these lag issues. Once we get some traction on that then hireling AI is high on the list. One of the first changes we want to make is having hirelings who are set to stay in place have a really short leashing distance. That should allow hirelings set to Stay and Guard to fight in a small tight area without running off into traps every time you get pinged with damage.

Sev~

[Dorian]

Step 1) gather all the coders responsible for the hireling AI.


I think they were all let go in the last round of layoffs.

And this is going to sound harsh (and I don't usually wish ill will on someone)... but I'm glad the Dev responsible for the Owlbear is no longer worker there.

The Owlbear is so inefficient and riddled with bugs. I mean, try to walk through a doorway with the Owlbear (How does that slip by any testing?).

[UurlockYgmeov]

All engineering resources are tied up with chasing down these lag issues. Once we get some traction on that then hireling AI is high on the list. One of the first changes we want to make is having hirelings who are set to stay in place have a really short leashing distance. That should allow hirelings set to Stay and Guard to fight in a small tight area without running off into traps every time you get pinged with damage.

Sev~

that sounds awesome!

[Chai]

I bet no one complains when the mob stands there scratching its behind while they beat it down.

I would LOL if they fixed hireling AI and next thing you know the mobs starting twice as smart as they do now as well. :p

[Connman]

I bet no one complains when the mob stands there scratching its behind ...

I just thought there were thinking to themselves, "be cool man. be cool and maybe they won't notice me," after they saw what I just did to their friends.

There are a couple of hyenas in the sands down by Stinkpelt, that sit there hiding from you.

[nolifer1]

All engineering resources are tied up with chasing down these lag issues. Once we get some traction on that then hireling AI is high on the list. One of the first changes we want to make is having hirelings who are set to stay in place have a really short leashing distance. That should allow hirelings set to Stay and Guard to fight in a small tight area without running off into traps every time you get pinged with damage.

Sev~
lag is bad indeed, shadow dragon still lagwipes most time, its very nice u working on that, tho i never use hirlings, great way to improve healer hirleings to give them quicken feat, tho i dont think its even possible to make meelee hirelings usful other them pulling levers, since game is pretty old and rewrite all that coding and mechanic

[General_Gronker]

Hey OP here you go, this is the real world work around to "hires are dumb yo!" (yes I know they are)
So do you have any suggestions besides a failed attempt at a clever answer (a hireling could have done better)?

I think that to fix the hirelings, they'll have to rebuild them form the ground up. Much like they'd have to do to fix the game.

[Hobgoblin]

So do you have any suggestions besides a failed attempt at a clever answer (a hireling could have done better)?

I think that to fix the hirelings, they'll have to rebuild them form the ground up. Much like they'd have to do to fix the game.

if you think the game is so bad, why do you still play and comment?

/shakes head

[burningwind]

thiis s the issue, only cleic hireling are semi useful, well maybe also rogue in some situation. and even they have been so hard to tolerate.... whih is why i keep brought up the topic of owlbear, which is the worst of the worst

[Connman]

So do you have any suggestions besides a failed attempt at a clever answer (a hireling could have done better)?

I think that to fix the hirelings, they'll have to rebuild them form the ground up. Much like they'd have to do to fix the game.

The original post was done "tongue in cheek", as was my reply. I got the OP's joke and he got mine. If you are having problems with the intricacies of the English language, I sincerely believe maybe you should just stick to posting what you like about the game, what you think needs fixing, and stay away from posts that require, at the very least, a moderate understanding of English humor.

I have found most of your posts to be quite insulting myself, I am sorry if this is a "lost in translation" thing, or just maybe a lost in "tone" thing.

But let me ask you this, what have you brought to the conversation? I at least brought a little humor. Sorry if you didn't get the joke, but the OP did. and honestly at this point this thread should probably just be left to rot.

[moomooprincess]

In many situations if you place your hireling out of their rather LARGE MONSTER DETECT RANGE, they will behave as commanded.

In the case mentioned, you failed the quest numerous times by doing the same thing over and over it sounds like.

You can draw the troll across the bridge with missile weapons, run back up the cave ramp to where your hireling could be parked near the locked door(you might have unlocked it) or to the rest shrine door.

Sure, not in all cases can you do this, but in many, many cases you can do this with a hireling, be it a cleric, fighter, etc.

I have also ran with hirelings and left them completely alone far, far away from me, and they can do pretty good(I guess). They seem to stay alive, they seem to eliminate monsters. I mostly notice this in Crystal Cov where I leave my hireling down by the south east waterfall by themselves to fight the spawning hobgoblins while I run the line.

[redoubt]

I would LOL if they fixed hireling AI and next thing you know the mobs starting twice as smart as they do now as well. :p

I would like this actually. I dislike hp bags and blanket immunites.

I know the AI isn't that smart right now, but I joke and sarcastically complain when a mob won't stand still in my firewall and steps just far enough out of it and pulls a bow, but this is what they SHOULD be doing!

If I put up a wall of fire on you, move! If I put a wall of fire or a disco ball on choke point, range me, but don't walk into it.

If three melee mobs all die to FOD, then the shaman in the back should start casting death ward. I deserve it if I was too dumb to kill the caster first.

If an archer is too deadly, run up and smack him. If he kites, have a caster insta-kill them. I think it would be awesome to see a melee mob pull out a shield and block with an archer standing behind him.

If a melee is too deadly, the mobs should start kiting him, into trap!

No need to jack up CRs, HP and damage... just jack up the AI. (Though I realize this is very, very difficult.)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I've had very good luck with Cleric hirelings set on Defend instead of active. (shield instead of crossed swords).
They seldom run off after things and also use less SP for attacks, so they have more for heals.

They do not stay where they are suppose to very well though...(I actually think there is a bug that unsets the stay button)

They also seem to stand still in traps instead of getting out of them. (though they do survive them better than most players)

They go heal brain dead on occasions, especially for themselves... and especially right after getting damaged by a trap.


But actually.... I love them and do not have nearly the trouble most claim to have on the forums.
(this might be because I just pay more attention to my party members status in general)
But I also tend to play toons that can heal and raise dead with scrolls.... (does suck sometimes in tough quests the number of scrolls I need to raise my hireling Cleric though...)

[Connman]

I would like this actually. I dislike hp bags and blanket immunites.

I know the AI isn't that smart right now, but I joke and sarcastically complain when a mob won't stand still in my firewall and steps just far enough out of it and pulls a bow, but this is what they SHOULD be doing!

If I put up a wall of fire on you, move! If I put a wall of fire or a disco ball on choke point, range me, but don't walk into it.

If three melee mobs all die to FOD, then the shaman in the back should start casting death ward. I deserve it if I was too dumb to kill the caster first.

If an archer is too deadly, run up and smack him. If he kites, have a caster insta-kill them. I think it would be awesome to see a melee mob pull out a shield and block with an archer standing behind him.

If a melee is too deadly, the mobs should start kiting him, into trap!

No need to jack up CRs, HP and damage... just jack up the AI. (Though I realize this is very, very difficult.)

This is, in my opinion, the ABSOLUTE BEST AI wish list I have seen. The only thing I can think to add to it is when you open a door how about the rog mob on the other side hide behind the door and get YOU, or ME, with an assassinate, *ding* "man I knew I should have pulled that deathblock item out of the ol' TR bank."

[JamnJD]

I would like this actually. I dislike hp bags and blanket immunites.

I know the AI isn't that smart right now, but I joke and sarcastically complain when a mob won't stand still in my firewall and steps just far enough out of it and pulls a bow, but this is what they SHOULD be doing!

If I put up a wall of fire on you, move! If I put a wall of fire or a disco ball on choke point, range me, but don't walk into it.

If three melee mobs all die to FOD, then the shaman in the back should start casting death ward. I deserve it if I was too dumb to kill the caster first.

If an archer is too deadly, run up and smack him. If he kites, have a caster insta-kill them. I think it would be awesome to see a melee mob pull out a shield and block with an archer standing behind him.

If a melee is too deadly, the mobs should start kiting him, into trap!

No need to jack up CRs, HP and damage... just jack up the AI. (Though I realize this is very, very difficult.)


^^ Best forum post of 2015 so far

...J

[EllisDee37]

I would LOL if they fixed hireling AI and next thing you know the mobs starting twice as smart as they do now as well. :pI think pretty much every DDO player would unanimously herald this as a wonderful thing.

[SisAmethyst]

First of all I understand the pain, however there is one thing I noticed. If you are already attempting it the 4th time, you are under fire and stress, and this often mean you yourself do make errors. In combination with a not so well performing hireling AI this get down quick.


I've had very good luck with Cleric hirelings set on Defend instead of active. (shield instead of crossed swords).
They seldom run off after things and also use less SP for attacks, so they have more for heals.

They do not stay where they are suppose to very well though...(I actually think there is a bug that unsets the stay button)

This one, if you not want your hirelings to do anything, not even chase mobs, then put it even in zen mode (actually that icon is a bit of a mess too, maybe [Zzzz..] would have been better)
But one very important thing to notice here is, take care of the timer!

If you recall your hireling to you, all his buttons are actually on timer for 5 second, INCLUDING the [hold ground] button! This is by the way the worst and first thing the Devs should fix because it seriously messes up things, especially in the heat of the moment!
Because you can actually click on the [hold ground] button right after you pressed on [recall] and you even see the toggle button change. However as soon as the timer is over the [hold ground] button will reset! And that is when hirelings actually start chasing the mobs again, even thou you are certain you put them on [hold ground].

So if you are careful and take your time, and wait for the button timers, you will have a lot more out of your hireling!

PS: I now even submitted a bug report for this particular issue.

[MaeveTuohy]

^^ Best forum post of 2015 so far

...J

Agreed.

Although no matter what mob behaviour becomes, players will work out the patterns and adjust their play style, surely anything is better than permitting mobs to stand around in AoE spells.

All mobs should be able to attack with ranged and melee weapons: yes a melee mob's ranged damage should be less than its melee, but it needs options other than attacking you in an ice storm.

[nibel]

No need to jack up CRs, HP and damage... just jack up the AI. (Though I realize this is very, very difficult.)

AFAIK, the problem isn't to create a good AI that do all that. The problem is creating a good AI that do all that in a way that it do not create huge spasms of lag on the servers when 10,000 instances are being run at the same time.

That is why, most of the time, single-player games have more complex AI than MMOs.

[Gremmlynn]

yep! Post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek (I was hoping the simpsons reference would help with that). Yes, i'm frustrated at the lack of reliability for hirelings. No, not so frustrated I'm advocating electro-torture on some poor innocent coder (although making the ai coders solo from 1-20 with a party full of their own creations would be some deliciously ironic justice...). No, the LFM is not the solve-all for this problem. some quests are just unpopular and will not draw players- let alone competent healing.The work around I found works really good is to learn how to not need (active) hirelings (would still need passive level pullers now and again).

[OzDrew]

All engineering resources are tied up with chasing down these lag issues. Once we get some traction on that then hireling AI is high on the list. One of the first changes we want to make is having hirelings who are set to stay in place have a really short leashing distance. That should allow hirelings set to Stay and Guard to fight in a small tight area without running off into traps every time you get pinged with damage.

Sev~

Seems the last thread on hirelings is being ignored and a new one was needed. Why? I really don't understand.
Anyway not intentionally trying to be snide or ungrateful since your participation in these forums is greatly appreciated but..

"...hirelings who are set to stay in place have a really short leashing distance..."

This is basically promising to devote limited dev resources to something we already had before the latest "improvements" and will most likely leave us with the other problems introduced by said "improvements" such as hireling aggro which is "Madder than Mad Jack McMad, the winner of last year's "Mr. Madman" competition", a dysfunctional customisable AI, and bizarre casting priorities that leave many hirelings on zero SP after 10% of a quest (stats not to be taken too seriously).

Anyway I would still call for them to be rolled back until the improvements, which are excellent in concept, can be better tested.

Cheers

[dunklezhan]

First of all I understand the pain, however there is one thing I noticed. If you are already attempting it the 4th time, you are under fire and stress, and this often mean you yourself do make errors. In combination with a not so well performing hireling AI this get down quick.



This one, if you not want your hirelings to do anything, not even chase mobs, then put it even in zen mode (actually that icon is a bit of a mess too, maybe [Zzzz..] would have been better)
But one very important thing to notice here is, take care of the timer!

If you recall your hireling to you, all his buttons are actually on timer for 5 second, INCLUDING the [hold ground] button! This is by the way the worst and first thing the Devs should fix because it seriously messes up things, especially in the heat of the moment!
Because you can actually click on the [hold ground] button right after you pressed on [recall] and you even see the toggle button change. However as soon as the timer is over the [hold ground] button will reset! And that is when hirelings actually start chasing the mobs again, even thou you are certain you put them on [hold ground].

So if you are careful and take your time, and wait for the button timers, you will have a lot more out of your hireling!

PS: I now even submitted a bug report for this particular issue.

I think this is WAI - like I said earlier, you just have to wait for the cooldown before giving them the next order and they behave pretty well. Is the 4 second cooldown too long? Yes. But if that's how long it needed to be in order to make them behave reliably, then I'll live with it rather than having them running all over the map. They probably ought to have explained more clearly/loudly that they had changed the 'footsteps' functionality however: "now that the 'come to me' icon on the hireline toolbar has been changed to immediately teleport the hireling to you, for stability purposes a 4 second cooldown has been imposed before further orders will be accepted by the hireling. "

[Sharktopus]

The work around I found works really good is to learn how to not need (active) hirelings (would still need passive level pullers now and again).

Pretty much this. If I think light hammers are stupid and ineffective, I would simply not use them as a weapon and figure something else out, rather than demand that devs make light hammers better.

A hireling is just one more thing you have to keep up with in a quest. On top of your position, health, spell points, hot bars, cool downs, tracking mobs, incoming damage, you're essentially now having to play two toons. Both of which are probably gimps. Ditch the hire, pump your umd, drink a potion and work on your game play.

Relying on a hireling will not make you better at this game. If anything it will make you lazy in your play style at best, and frustrated and indignant at worst.

Not trying to be mean, but if the basis of your tactics is "spawn a bot to take care of my toon", you're doing it wrong.

[Catteras]

that sounds awesome!

What would be even awesomeer if if they would just ROLL BACK the heirling part of the update where they "upgraded" them. That was when they introduced most of the brokenness that infuriates me.

Roll the hierling code back, and then stop touching it. It seems like every time they touch the code, the heirlings get worse. If you can't fix it, leave it alone before you make it worse.

And finally, Turbine should invest in their QA department (I'm assuming they surely must have one). Put together some test plans. Test stuff out. Are you messing with herlings? The test plan isn't so tough. You have a static list of things to check. Does the heirling stay in place when ordered? Does it heal itself when damaged? Does it follow instructions? If I turn off the searing light wand, does it stop casting it? Etc. Etc. This isn't new ground we're talking here. But if they are doing this, then what gives??? If something doesn't work, doesn't pass QA, then don't push it to Prod!

[Kylstrem]

I suppose my take is different than OPs. I started playing back in the day before hirelings were available, and before all the self-healing/self-sufficient options were added to most builds.

Hirelings are a great addition. I expect them to do dumb stuff, but I don't care that much. For the most part they are able to heal me when necessary, but I don't depend 100% on them.

But I understand newer people have joined the game that never experienced the "waiting 1 hour for a cleric to join your group because you couldn't complete the quest without a cleric" scenario.

They were added to make soloing a little easier for most people, back when soloing was really difficult.

The AI in the game has always been bad, even for mobs... it's not going to improve all of a sudden. This is why you have mobs with infinite spell points. This is why you have mobs that will chase you mindlessly through blade barriers and will stand in firewalls/cloudkills. The devs even took cloudkill scrolls out of the store rather than fix the AI or fix it so the cloudkill didn't work with a closed door between you and the mobs. And the cloudkill scrolls still are not available in the store, but when was the last time you heard a caster say "Wait. let me cast cloudkill here to win this battle"

Why do you suddenly think they are going to be able to make AI on the hirelings better?

The game is always going to have jury-rigged AI shortcuts instead of honest-to-goodness fixes for it. And that's not a knock on the programmers. I'm sure they would love to fix it so it would work right, but time and resources are not available for that.

And with the game on the decline with fewer programmers, they certainly don't have the resources to spend much time on this. Expect shortcuts (I would love for the Stay button to remain enabled though, and it would be nice for the short leash that Sev said they would aim for).

Oh and all the engineers are looking at the lag issue. I still remember the post by Fernando at least 3 years ago saying that "We are about to make lag a thing of the past" when lag really wasn't even as bad as it is today.

But feel free to tilt at that windmill... my advice... accept hirelings for what they are, and request more content and things to do at end game.

[krimsonrane]

I stopped using them altogether and prepare my toon to either function without one or do a lower difficulty just so I don't have to use them. All I use nowadays is a rogue hireling on my pali when needed to open locks or pull switches. Not traps because the highest level rogue (lvl 24) can't do a lvl 28 trap. Hell, I've seen them, run out of thieves tools trying to open doors and chests in EH Haunted Halls.

They are a detriment to finishing the quest.

[Livmo]

I stopped using them altogether and prepare my toon to either function without one or do a lower difficulty just so I don't have to use them. All I use nowadays is a rogue hireling on my pali when needed to open locks or pull switches. Not traps because the highest level rogue (lvl 24) can't do a lvl 28 trap. Hell, I've seen them, run out of thieves tools trying to open doors and chests in EH Haunted Halls.

They are a detriment to finishing the quest.

Agreed. Simple fix. Learn to run without them and/or only use in limited circumstances.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Enemy rangers kiting players would be extraordinarily annoying, all that would happen is they would back up and rubberband.

[Casareena]

I've discussed in many a quest with my husband about hirelings...we've both cursed our way through some quests out of sheer frustration as our hires seem to have a death wish!

We've both seen hires that run into traps, run off to fight's we've not even got to yet and more than likely won't heal us or themselves and need constant watching over.

I've thought well, we buy a hire who is supposed to be a character in their own right; as such have their own way of thinking and doing things?

But then, if we went out to hire and pay someone to help us climb a mountain would we hire someone who would throw themselves off the first ledge they got to...no.

All hirelings can be as daft as each other when it comes to having a death wish. My husband thinks hirelings should come with an icon on their bar that when used means the hireling will stop what they doing and stay put! I think this will save SO much frustration.

[Highlander]

Seems the last thread on hirelings is being ignored and a new one was needed. Why? I really don't understand.
Anyway not intentionally trying to be snide or ungrateful since your participation in these forums is greatly appreciated but..

"...hirelings who are set to stay in place have a really short leashing distance..."

This is basically promising to devote limited dev resources to something we already had before the latest "improvements" and will most likely leave us with the other problems introduced by said "improvements" such as hireling aggro which is "Madder than Mad Jack McMad, the winner of last year's "Mr. Madman" competition", a dysfunctional customisable AI, and bizarre casting priorities that leave many hirelings on zero SP after 10% of a quest (stats not to be taken too seriously).

Anyway I would still call for them to be rolled back until the improvements, which are excellent in concept, can be better tested.

Cheers

Agreed.
The fastest fix might be a rollback.
The AI used to work ok.
The Panther used to be good up to lvl 20, but has been degraded over time.
The Owlbear's were nearly always useless, but in last year became stupid statues.
Other AI's were hit and miss but at least we knew which ones worked as we needed.

They just seem broken- what was done was not an improvement, nor was it tested very well.
No-one understates the difficulty of AI, but it doesn't mean we should put up with poor workmanship because the apologists say so.

If you don't use hires, good for you, move along.
They're in the game, and some people pay to use them so there is some expectation that they actually work as advertised.

Chai - as others have said, most would welcome the mob AI to get a boost too. It would be great if they employed smarter tactics and maybe we could move away from ridiculous CR and saves and HP inflation as the primary measures of mob difficulty.

[Limey]

"Hirelings are a great addition. I expect them to do dumb stuff, but I don't care that much."

My sentiments exactly and sometimes they just work, last night did a few quests Andaro healed me and himself, didn't die, killed a few mobs with light damage. His only fault all night was at one shrine he had to be asked three times to use it, I guess he had insomnia.

Anyway they have improved a lot since their inception, they used to have so few hit points I just left them at the entrance until needed most of the times. I'm sure Turb will continue to improve them.

[LightBear]

...

Sooooo, OP did you recently did a quest where you had to keep an NPC alive?

Would love to read up your take on that. :) :evil-grin:

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think they should just let hirelings become champions; and when they die give us a chest.

[ElrondElfKing]

Some hirelings are really good. Skein (L14/FVS) is a personal favorite. He rarely dies, and sometimes will actually lead me in a quest I'm not familiar with.

[Thrudh]

Raise your hand if a hireling has cost you flawless victory XP four times in a row, until you're so demoralized that you just quit recalling and resetting the quest. o/

Why would you recall and reset a quest just because your hireling died?

That seems like a really silly thing to do.

[JamnJD]

AFAIK, the problem isn't to create a good AI that do all that. The problem is creating a good AI that do all that in a way that it do not create huge spasms of lag on the servers when 10,000 instances are being run at the same time.

I don't think the server worlds ever see (normally - but re: recent issue with instances not closing properly) the number of instances anywhere near that number, but you bring up a very good point.

I like the AI that they created for Wheloon. Those mobs move around a lot, and seem smarter as they spread out and flank you more, making AOE spells more difficult to plan. But the performance impact (I'm referring to hitching/stutter lag) as a result is huge, and I see this in just soloing out there. Running in a party where there are more spawns, forget about it. It's just not fun.

I can't help but to call out the DEVS on these AI issues on hirelings, and AI in general. Guys. It's pretty clear that AI has historically not been your core competency! So bring in someone temporarily who is that can do this properly, so you can focus on the creative stuph that you excel at. (and the Lag related issues of course, but AI may be one of them)

...J

[JamnJD]

I think they should just let hirelings become champions; and when they die give us a chest.

+1

We'd be pretty much guaranteed to get back more then the plat we paid for them :) Could be seen as an exploit tho :(

...J

[cmckronos]

I just really wish you'd fix the problem with the AI toggling off their 'stand ground' button...its so freaking irritating to click stay there and then 5 seconds later the hireling turns the button off and goes all leroy jenkins...

The reproduction steps are fairly easy, but if needed I could add them...(operating under the assumption its been reported over and over again)

[Nonesuch2008]

I just really wish you'd fix the problem with the AI toggling off their 'stand ground' button...its so freaking irritating to click stay there and then 5 seconds later the hireling turns the button off and goes all leroy jenkins...

The reproduction steps are fairly easy, but if needed I could add them...(operating under the assumption its been reported over and over again)

I have a blast in DDO, no doubt about it. And on occasion, I manage to get myself blasted...but that's a topic for a different thread. ;)

What does put a damper on the whole experience is going through these steps:

1) Park hire
2) Set hire passive & set focus on lever/rune
3) Walk away to other simultaneous lever/rune
4) Curse vehemently when you realize that hire has followed behind you the whole time, like some lovesick puppy :mad:

Prison of the Planes, Fleshmaker's Lab, Litany (don't want them standing in the force traps during the fall & perishing, now do we?) Lots of other places like these where it drives me insane when they refuse to stay put.

I can live with shepherding them out of the lava, I'm used to doing that. But I'd kill to have that 'short leash' or the old AI back for just this one fix.