group/raid leader permissions

[Lallajulia]

i want to talk about group ability to remove unwanted persons.
group leader have star, but what is the point of it, if you can not kick out player, who intentionally ruin quest? recall, reenter... yes.
but still, why group have no ability kick players?
if devs do not want give such permission to leader, then give it to group through group vote to kick certain player. mechanism is extremely simple - majority wins.

second thing. give leader ability to kick hirelings. why there is no such permission to leader? person goes afk, do not understand english, do not read chat, do not read lfm restrictions in notes or whatever reason. why group leader can not dismiss hirelings?

if leader accept two persons, they pop two hirelings, group is almost full of... im sorry, but four nearly useless players. and you can do absolutely nothing about it. why is that?

[Krelar]

I think being able to kick people out of the group when they are already in the quest would lead to too many griefing opportunities.


Being able to kick hirelings I would be ok with. What would probably be better is a pop up asking the leader's permission before a hireling can be summoned.

[Connman]

i want to talk about group ability to remove unwanted persons.
group leader have star, but what is the point of it, if you can not kick out player, who intentionally ruin quest? recall, reenter... yes.
but still, why group have no ability kick players?
if devs do not want give such permission to leader, then give it to group through group vote to kick certain player. mechanism is extremely simple - majority wins.

/not signed because of griefing



second thing. give leader ability to kick hirelings. why there is no such permission to leader? person goes afk, do not understand english, do not read chat, do not read lfm restrictions in notes or whatever reason. why group leader can not dismiss hirelings?...

/signed because sometimes I feel like players summon hires to grief.

I agree with the overall sentiment though.


...
Being able to kick hirelings I would be ok with. What would probably be better is a pop up asking the leader's permission before a hireling can be summoned.
I would say both would be the best, preventing said player from re-summoning the hire, along with a check box for "don't ask again"

[JOTMON]

I think being able to kick people out of the group when they are already in the quest would lead to too many griefing opportunities.


Being able to kick hirelings I would be ok with. What would probably be better is a pop up asking the leader's permission before a hireling can be summoned.

The party kick would likely get griefed, player contributes to the end, come to open the chest gets something good... leader is annoyed and.. boot before looting....
Or just as the boss fight is about to finish, boots players..
Now realistically that player would be blacklisted pretty quickly, but I can see it being abused..
Some mechanics would have to be put into place for this to be considered.

There should be an option for the leader to accept/reject the initial summoning of hirelings by party members.
and be able to boot hirelings/party spot pets whenever they want.

I find it annoying when I see a party forming someone jumps in summons a hire without asking and blocks the leader from adding players for he last spot..
Had this happen recently when someone joined and summoned a hireling without saying a word then apparently went afk.
waited 5 minutes and even after sending tells, the player was oblivious or just ignored tells we recalled and reformed..
I can appreciate some players wanting to utilize a hireling while the position is empty, but to not drop it when asked is annoying..

Sure you can drop and reform.. but why punish the party leader for forming the group when someone joining is not adhering to leaders request.

[Powskier]

Obvious this would be used to play favorites and would only hurt grouping... "oh my buddy is on, c ya! unknown newb", "your booted", "he needs completion,you understand?". Power creep donsn't need to creep to leader administration and interaction infraction.

[PermaBanned]

i want to talk about group ability to remove unwanted persons.
group leader have star, but what is the point of it, if you can not kick out player, who intentionally ruin quest? recall, reenter... yes.
but still, why group have no ability kick players?
if devs do not want give such permission to leader, then give it to group through group vote to kick certain player. mechanism is extremely simple - majority wins.

second thing. give leader ability to kick hirelings. why there is no such permission to leader? person goes afk, do not understand english, do not read chat, do not read lfm restrictions in notes or whatever reason. why group leader can not dismiss hirelings?

if leader accept two persons, they pop two hirelings, group is almost full of... im sorry, but four nearly useless players. and you can do absolutely nothing about it. why is that?
Slippery slope as nothing is grief-proof. Current system allows some griefing but so would adding a /kick option. I've thought more than once a /vote kick would be nice - especially in gather quests (ie Diplomatic Impunity) when someone's gone AFK for too long. Other times I've wanted it when someone was being a flat out jerk for some excuse/reason or another.

In general I'd like the idea (especially the part about hires!) but which system would allow for more griefing or irritation of fellow players is anybody's guess.

[Connman]

... in gather quests (ie Diplomatic Impunity) when someone's gone AFK for too long...

It would be nice in these quests, if at the very least, someone that was sent the "you have been afk..." message didn't count for/against the said objective.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

No one who would ever want to boot someone should have the power to do so.


and the situation you described would not be solved by being able to boot someone anyway.




That said, gather the party quests can be annoying when someone goes AFK too long.
IMO, Devs really need to limit these kinds of quests.

For example, Diplomatic Immunity. Does the gather your party requirement really add anything for this quest?
Does it add anything to the Snitch? (other than to punish zergers who leave people behind.... which does add some value IMO. ;) )
(now that I think about it, maybe they should add a gather requirement to Coal Chamber...)

(actually....lol.... the more I think about this... they need to add a gather requirement to every end fight! or to open the end chest, or talk to the NPC to get the XP....lol.. Cause it tics me of when people recall before someone gets to the end chest.)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

It would be nice in these quests, if at the very least, someone that was sent the "you have been afk..." message didn't count for/against the said objective.

Yes.






But you could always bring some monsters to him, use diplomacy, then drag his soul stone with you.... ;)

[Qhualor]

No one who would ever want to boot someone should have the power to do so.


and the situation you described would not be solved by being able to boot someone anyway.




That said, gather the party quests can be annoying when someone goes AFK too long.
IMO, Devs really need to limit these kinds of quests.

For example, Diplomatic Immunity. Does the gather your party requirement really add anything for this quest?
Does it add anything to the Snitch? (other than to punish zergers who leave people behind.... which does add some value IMO. ;) )
(now that I think about it, maybe they should add a gather requirement to Coal Chamber...)

(actually....lol.... the more I think about this... they need to add a gather requirement to every end fight! or to open the end chest, or talk to the NPC to get the XP....lol.. Cause it tics me of when people recall before someone gets to the end chest.)

doooo eeet! lol

[Connman]

No one who would ever want to boot someone should have the power to do so...

So this leaves who? Gandhi? Mother Teresa? I mean seriously Talon if you have never felt the desire to boot some *your preferred expletive* from a group I would have to say, in my opinion, you have had the best run of luck of anyone who has ever played an MMO. Gratz!

[Daine]

/not signed to leaders kicking whoever, whenever. "Once you're in, you're in", it's as good a rule as "your loot is your loot".

Booting hirelings would be OK for me, though I wonder what game mechanic would get broken during the dev/beta/live process...

[Connman]

... though I wonder what game mechanic would get broken during the dev/beta/live process...

I'll take "handwraps" for 200 Alex...

[Phoenix-daBard]

i want to talk about group ability to remove unwanted persons.

Used to exist and was abused. Not coming back.

The ability to block hirelings by the party leader on the other hand would be a good thing.

[SirValentine]

give leader ability to kick hirelings.


/signed. Please, make this happen.



i want to talk about group ability to remove unwanted persons.
group leader have star, but what is the point of it, if you can not kick out player, who intentionally ruin quest? recall, reenter... yes.
but still, why group have no ability kick players?
if devs do not want give such permission to leader, then give it to group through group vote to kick certain player. mechanism is extremely simple - majority wins.


I understand the possible abuse of just being able to kick people who are actually running the quest with you, but people can also abuse the immunity to being kicked, deliberately or inadvertently (by going AFK).

Currently you can't kick anyone in any instance. I think it would be helpful, while not being as able to be abused, to be able to kick from party anyone who is the ONLY player in whatever instance they are in. I.e., griefer joins your raid, and then goes AFK in Tempest Spine when everyone else is in Fall of Truth. You would be able to kick the guy in Tempest Spine, but as now, to minimize abuse, you still can't kick any of the others who actually came in to Fall of Truth with you.

[redoubt]

Absolutely allow group leader to boot hires / party slot pets.

I had a guy join a group and pull a hire without asking. The LFM was still up but we were in progress. I announced that I put the LFM back up in case another actual person wanted to join. I had a cleric hit my LFM. I asked over voice, party chat and tell for him to drop the hire. He refused. I'm not really sure what he thought we were going to do to him, but he was pretty upset about me wanting him to drop the hire. I explained to the cleric the issue and told him he would get an invite shortly. We recalled, broke group and ran the quest with a full 6 people. (Yep, someone else took that guys spot.) What was really sad was that, if his hang up was getting heals, the cleric would have been able to help. I think a /boot hire option would be helpful in this case.

On booting players:

Yes it could be used as a griefing tool, but to what end? Back when there were only two loot stones in raids you might do this, but booting people only lessens the chance for named loot in the chest. Once someone dies, what more can they do to you for xp loss? Nothing. They know if you the recall to try to come in to give you the re-entry penalty that you will boot them before they get back in, so that is not a factor. You can already pick up their stone and drop it in the lava with will prevent them from staying with the group and/or getting loot.

What I see in this option, is the ability to get rid of someone who is being a jerk without sacrificing the groups time already spent in the quest. I have no trouble with a vote mechanic on it either. I'd say it needs to be unanimous. If you happen to get a pair of griefers, you are just unlucky and you should report them anyway. Also anytime this function is used it should auto generate a report that can be looked up in the event of a harassment complaint by either party.

If it doesn't happen, its not that big of a deal. I've only had to recall and regroup once in the last 2 years. Maybe I'm just lucky.

[RedOrm]

give leader ability to kick hirelings.

Alternative: put a checkbox on the LFM window so that when puttin up the lfm the leader can check No Hirelings. This would be visible on the lfm panel, and make it impossible to summon hires in the first place (same as in a raid). Less hassle for the party leader, easy to spot for people wanting to join, and hopefully easier to implement as they can re-use the raid code for preventing hirelings.

Greetz,
Red Orm

[Connman]

Alternative: put a checkbox on the LFM window so that when putting up the lfm the leader can check No Hirelings. This would be visible on the lfm panel, and make it impossible to summon hires in the first place (same as in a raid). Less hassle for the party leader, easy to spot for people wanting to join, and hopefully easier to implement as they can re-use the raid code for preventing hirelings.

Greetz,
Red Orm

This, this, a thousand times this!

[Lallajulia]

No one who would ever want to boot someone should have the power to do so.


and logic behind this at the very least strange statement?

there are plenty and lots of situations where person SHOULD have feel consequences. this is not kindergarden where person should be protected from anything that can hurt it... feelings. and even children have to learn that their actions have consequences. otherwise we raise sociopats without any meaning of responsibility for their actions.

really annoying persons should be punished. if not by leader alone, then by group for sure. you guys seriously think that 4-5 adult persons are not able decide such small matters?
and even further - why groups are unable to get rid of useless rogues, for example? in real life such person is just fired, end of story. next candidat invited. WHY others have to suffer someone bad job, failures without any meanings of dismiss bad job doers?

edit: and this is not about hirelings, this was just addon to theme. imagine, coal chamber, somone pick last key, on the way up happens drama. big one.:) person with key refuses to open door. quest stucked. everyone spend about 40 min to get finally up. and... one person are able screw things for everyone. we could kick him and that would drop key, but NO, we can not, we HAVE to save, you know, person "feelings".

[MagicBlue]

This, this, a thousand times this!

Friendly fire solves all the problems :D

[bartharok]

and logic behind this at the very least strange statement?

there are plenty and lots of situations where person SHOULD have feel consequences. this is not kindergarden where person should be protected from anything that can hurt it... feelings. and even children have to learn that their actions have consequences. otherwise we raise sociopats without any meaning of responsibility for their actions.

really annoying persons should be punished. if not by leader alone, then by group for sure. and even further - why groups are unable to get rid of useless rogues, for example? in real life such person is just fired, end of story. next candidat invited. WHY others have to suffer someone bad job, failures without any meanings of dismiss bad job doers?

Define annoying and useless. And then realize that you may be both to others. Thats why being able to boot people at will is a bad idea.

[Lallajulia]

Define annoying and useless. And then realize that you may be both to others. Thats why being able to boot people at will is a bad idea.

group are able itself decide first and second, if they feel need to do so.

[bartharok]

group are able itself decide first and second, if they feel need to do so.

No mechanism to prevent griefing should be implemented if it has the potential for worse than what it supposed to prevent.

[Lallajulia]

No mechanism to prevent griefing should be implemented if it has the potential for worse than what it supposed to prevent.

do you have personal experience of such mechanism in game? i do. it is not abused(with rare exceptions) and works just fine.

[bartharok]

do you have personal experience of such mechanism in game? i do. it is not abused(with rare exceptions) and works just fine.

What mechanism might that be?

[Lallajulia]

What mechanism might that be?

voting.

[bartharok]

voting.

So... you have a voting mechaism in DDO? News to me.

[MagicBlue]

So... you have a voting mechaism in DDO? News to me.

If it is a chat voting among party members to make decision, can work or not. There are experience about chest loots in the past and i remember dramas but also good endings. Also when the loot winner was decided by a die roll.

But i understand also that many issues in parties are due to someone who do not want to follow the instructions of the leader. I do not know if a kick system can be good or not.

Griefing or not is left to the maturity of the people, tho.

[bartharok]

If it is a chat voting among party members to make decision, can work or not. There are experience about chest loots in the past and i remember dramas but also good endings. Also when the loot winner was decided by a die roll.

But i understand also that many issues in parties are due to someone who do not want to follow the instructions of the leader. I do not know if a kick system can be good or not.

Griefing or not is left to the maturity of the people, tho.

The problem is that anonymity makes for a higher degree of immaturity.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

So this leaves who? Gandhi? Mother Teresa? I mean seriously Talon if you have never felt the desire to boot some *your preferred expletive* from a group I would have to say, in my opinion, you have had the best run of luck of anyone who has ever played an MMO. Gratz!


Ok... I have had only a couple true griefers.

One, did recall and come back in on purpose... and then purposely die as well.
But the damage was done... we either continued or recalled, reformed and reset.... booting would not have helped us.

Then there is the AFK guys we have to wait on to proceed.....
I did want to be able to do something to fix that situation.... but I didn't really want to boot him... if I had some other option anyway.
(I do think I actually did the get monsters to kill somebody once thing... to solve the problem....)

Then there is the zerger soloist who took over the quest... and did it for us while we watched....
Ok... I sorta wished I could have kicked him, but.... I still don't think that is justification for us to be able to do it.

There is the stupid noob..... but no. I just help him. Or worse scenario finish and leave him... (not my style, but yeah, some people are beyond help...)

If the guy is ruining the quest, it is already ruined by the time you realize it.
Booting him after he ruins it does not fix it.

I guess there is the guy who picks up a key or something and doesn't admit it....but, can't they fix that issue by just making more of those things to pick up.... or something.....


Booting really doesn't solve the problem.

[Uska]

Its a bad idea and was horribly abused in the past and should never return under any circumstance

[Uska]

Its a bad idea and was horribly abused in the past and should never return under any circumstance to be able to kick a player. Hirelings on the other hand should be kickable by group leader and there should also be a check box on group setup for the leader to decide on whether or not to allow hirelings

[MagicBlue]

Its a bad idea and was horribly abused in the past and should never return under any circumstance

Yes, was abused, but also not.
I have years (pre motu) of grouping experience and very rarely i was in the middle of dramas.

With the PUG situation of these days i understand that will be more the abuses than the right uses of such a feature.

But maybe also the crisis of groups and continuous ranting about how the groups work can be a consequence of the impotence of the leaders.

After people keep being kicked for "not compliant" behaviour (decided by the leader) maybe something will learn.
And also leaders that are too "zero tolerant" will not have noone that follow them.
People create their lists...

[Kawai]

nope.
---
& maybe system itself should auto-boot hirelings in de order they were popped? -in favor of new human player entering party.

[Uska]

If it is a chat voting among party members to make decision, can work or not. There are experience about chest loots in the past and i remember dramas but also good endings. Also when the loot winner was decided by a die roll.

But i understand also that many issues in parties are due to someone who do not want to follow the instructions of the leader. I do not know if a kick system can be good or not.

Griefing or not is left to the maturity of the people, tho.

I saw group leaders who ignored the roll to give the item to friends or guildies also saw people kicked just because the group leader thought it would be funny to do so right before the xp was awarded. Voting wouldn't be much better.

[MagicBlue]

I saw group leaders who ignored the roll to give the item to friends or guildies also saw people kicked just because the group leader thought it would be funny to do so right before the xp was awarded. Voting wouldn't be much better.

To tell the truth there is nothing that really works.

Potential leaders cannot select or manage their parties and that is why no one wants to create groups.
Many LFM are out by people that is soloing the quest and that will finished it solo.

A lot of people complaint about the many soloers and ask Turbine to favorite groups creating hard mechanics.
The problem of groups are in the groups themselves not in the game mechanics. And soloers should not hurt anyone. Is a choice and sometimes obliged.

But the problem of group exists, many do not want to see or give the fault to the game that's too easy.

Personally, if i want to create a group i put the rules in the LFM and if i see that someone do not follow i wish to have the power to kick.

[General_Gronker]

why group have no ability kick players?

Because it's a terrible idea. For example, I would lobby the group to kick someone who refused to spell properly, uses caps inappropriately, or uses emotes. Because those things annoy me. And I'm a tolerant kind of player. I can only imagine what the people who are actually buttheads would do with this.

Concerning hireling kicking - if you find yourself grouping with people who refuse to dismiss hires when asked, stop grouping with those people. Simple.

[Lallajulia]

Because it's a terrible idea. For example, I would lobby the group to kick someone who refused to spell properly, uses caps inappropriately, or uses emotes. Because those things annoy me. And I'm a tolerant kind of player. I can only imagine what the people who are actually buttheads would do with this.

Concerning hireling kicking - if you find yourself grouping with people who refuse to dismiss hires when asked, stop grouping with those people. Simple.

terrible? even terrible?
and just what would be so terrible kick player who abuses grup chat? normally, such persons are banned by moderators. in group chat such modaration would be common sense. if someone uses chat to spam trash in group chat, kicking such player would be good and not terrible idea.

about hirelings. but this is not solution - do not group with them anymore. this is pug scene. "do not group with them" is not working here. players come randomly. give to leader ability kick hireling, it is so simple... to be honest, i even do not have idea why such simple actions, permission are not presented from the beginning.

[Faltout]

terrible? even terrible?
and just what would be so terrible kick player who abuses grup chat? normally, such persons are banned by moderators. in group chat such modaration would be common sense. if someone uses chat to spam trash in group chat, kicking such player would be good and not terrible idea.
First of all, this is called /ignore not "kick player". Second of all, did you see Powskier's post in the first page?

Obvious this would be used to play favorites and would only hurt grouping... "oh my buddy is on, c ya! unknown newb", "your booted", "he needs completion,you understand?". Power creep donsn't need to creep to leader administration and interaction infraction.
People would be booted for friends to get completion/loot.

Also, why do you care if someone goes into another quest and then goes AFK? If you are IP in the dungeon, then that means you don't want help anyway. If you're not IP in the dungeon, then it's easy to regroup before entering the quest.

If someone gets the key and then goes AFK or group needs to gather to some point, then that is bad, but it rarely happens. And certainly not as common as what Powskier mentioned would happen if kicking was allowed.


about hirelings. but this is not solution - do not group with them anymore. this is pug scene. "do not group with them" is not working here. players come randomly. give to leader ability kick hireling, it is so simple... to be honest, i even do not have idea why such simple actions, permission are not presented from the beginning.
Because some hirelings are purchased with real money. The only viable solution is to not being able to summon them in the first place, but that is a lot of coding and would solve a tiny portion of the problems currently in the game. And not even an important one.

[redoubt]

First of all, this is called /ignore not "kick player". Second of all, did you see Powskier's post in the first page?

People would be booted for friends to get completion/loot.

Also, why do you care if someone goes into another quest and then goes AFK? If you are IP in the dungeon, then that means you don't want help anyway. If you're not IP in the dungeon, then it's easy to regroup before entering the quest.

If someone gets the key and then goes AFK or group needs to gather to some point, then that is bad, but it rarely happens. And certainly not as common as what Powskier mentioned would happen if kicking was allowed.


Because some hirelings are purchased with real money. The only viable solution is to not being able to summon them in the first place, but that is a lot of coding and would solve a tiny portion of the problems currently in the game. And not even an important one.

I've played since launch. I've both pug'd and been in guild runs since launch.

The number of times I've seen someone ignore a dice roll or steal raid loot (when it was the two stones method) is a grand total of zero. (You can't steal loot any more.)

The number of times the voice or the ring in von5 (or a similar object) has gone "missing" if relatively high.

If someone goes into another dungeon after joining my group, I consider that griefing. All they are doing is purposely keeping someone else who might want to do the quest the group is running from joining.

I don't care if someone purchased a hire with real money. I put up an lfm, start the quest and pop hires to fill empty spots UNTIL more people join. When people ask to pop hires I say that its okay, but that I am keeping the LFM up for actual people and that we will dismiss hires as people join. Now its up to them to decide what they want to do.

[Lallajulia]

Because some hirelings are purchased with real money.

this is very weak argument. if someone buys alcohol and comes to party where drinking alco is forbidden, it would be very, very starnge argument from bottle owner, that he will drink because he, you see, "purchaced with real money". irrelevant.

[Lallajulia]

and i`m NOT against hirelings. it is rarely when i deny to someone pop bot if he asks/wants. go on... no uno problema. but not always. it is more about mature attitude in game where most players are not kids(by far) anymore.
ability to make so elementary decisions like kick abusing players or forbidden hirelings can be given to us. i agree this is not at all very important matter. but for me, at that moment it was matter. plus, i do not see how this is some kind of hard coding to do. im sorry, but if make such thing is hard, then i even do not what think about some things related to coding in ddo if thats nearly true.

[Faltout]

I've played since launch. I've both pug'd and been in guild runs since launch.

The number of times I've seen someone ignore a dice roll or steal raid loot (when it was the two stones method) is a grand total of zero. (You can't steal loot any more.)
Most raids have a lock-out mechanism anyway, so kicking players to get other players in the group would not be possible.
But: I've played much less than you (3 years) and the times I've seen someone complain about someone else taking the loot he was looking for are far more than the times I've seen people get keys and go AFK.
What I'm talking about is:
- Oh, I want a shard of the flameward. I will put up a PUG for Spinner EE and then while everyone can't move, I'll kick them all and get my guildies inside the quest to pass me the shard if anyone gets it.
So I guess either you've been playing with groups you know, or you haven't noticed the other player's emotions when looting an item they really wanted.


The number of times the voice or the ring in von5 (or a similar object) has gone "missing" if relatively high.
So what, you're going to start kicking people until an object drops at the kicked person's position? Most likely you'll kick the whole party before realizing you were the one that took it :D

I'm just reminding you that we're talking about people taking an object and going AFK. Not about people that took an object and don't know they have it.


If someone goes into another dungeon after joining my group, I consider that griefing. All they are doing is purposely keeping someone else who might want to do the quest the group is running from joining.
So, griefing the potential joiners? You can't miss something you never had, right?


I don't care if someone purchased a hire with real money. I put up an lfm, start the quest and pop hires to fill empty spots UNTIL more people join. When people ask to pop hires I say that its okay, but that I am keeping the LFM up for actual people and that we will dismiss hires as people join. Now its up to them to decide what they want to do.If a person used a paid hire and can complete the quest on his own, while it's bad attitude is totally acceptable from Turbine. Turbine is not going to give direct means to players to invalidate paid goods.
It's fine if they do it indirectly (by all dropping group), but not ever directly.

[Gremmlynn]

When it comes to booting players in quest, I think the current "recall and reform" option to be about the best compromise we are going to find.

[Connman]

Having re-read what I had to say in here, and what Lala just posted, I should point out that I am not against hires myself. I don't use them other than pulling levers, but if someone needs a hire to have fun, which is the single most important thing to me in this game people having fun, I am all for them. I don't ask people to kick their hire when it comes down to last party slot I just remove the LFM. To me, asking someone to kick that hire they needed would be akin to asking them, "hey would you mind not having fun now so we can add another player." But it is all situational, like when they realize I am healing them better on my pure barb with scrolls and cocoon than the hire who has been hit in the head one too many times over the years.

I am all for people that want more options to have more options, just take all those quests I hate, I am glad they are there because some people like them.

As far as Lala, well Lala is very, very, very forgiving, I know from first hand personal experience, as I have never been kicked going from quest 1 to quest 2 after I have done something stupid.

[Malleable]

& maybe system itself should auto-boot hirelings in de order they were popped? -in favor of new human player entering party.

Excellent idea if it were able to be coded. And also

/not signed

for party leader being able to boot party members once in a dungeon, even if they're useless/ stupid/ or whatever it is you don't like about them. I played on a server before where this was enabled and it led to far too many problems. Once you're done with a dungeon, it's easy enough to drop party and reform without said offender.

[Kawai]

:0
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[Connman]

:0
maybe come up w/ New, Improved VIP!



100$ month.
Shiny Gold Nameplates.
Mountable Dire-Tigers (sorry, Rangers only! -Wolf Chewie-Treats not included.)
ability, Once per Month, to punt any player from Quest.
ability, Once per Rest, to punt Flower-Sniffers to the next shrine.
ability, Three Times per Rest, to punt Zerglings back to beginning of Quest.
ability, Five Times per Quest, to pull players from other quests... into yours!
LightSabers! -Coz, hey, if u guyz can believe in Kobolds, Dragons, & 100ft women with boobies hanging out all over, then u can believe in LightSabers too!
Daily gathering of Dev's via Net-Meeting, to compare notes on very important topics, -mainly Ranger updates- ending w/ declaration of raised toasts -to you!


yw :P




+1 funniest post I have read in a long time. as far as "lightsabers" well you may see a light saber, me, I see a "psionic spirit blade"

[redoubt]

Most raids have a lock-out mechanism anyway, so kicking players to get other players in the group would not be possible.
But: I've played much less than you (3 years) and the times I've seen someone complain about someone else taking the loot he was looking for are far more than the times I've seen people get keys and go AFK..

I hope my comment about time was taken as a means of showing how rarely I have seen something (and not as pretending my opinion is superior due to longevity.) Also to show that I did play back when it was possible to "steal" loot because only the quest leader could assign loot. It has not been like that for a long time and at this point it is not possible to steal loot.

I have totally seen people get upset at someone taking loot from a chest. I make note of it and try to remember not to group with them. Whatever else you believe, Turbine has made it abundantly clear that the loot belongs to the person whose name is next to it. Period. So if someone is mad about it, too bad.



What I'm talking about is:
- Oh, I want a shard of the flameward. I will put up a PUG for Spinner EE and then while everyone can't move, I'll kick them all and get my guildies inside the quest to pass me the shard if anyone gets it.
So I guess either you've been playing with groups you know, or you haven't noticed the other player's emotions when looting an item they really wanted..

This point, or concept, is so far outside what my personal experience has been and what I would normally conceive of people doing that I had never considered someone would do that.

Honestly, I think the best remedy for that level of *bleepy*ness is reporting them.

I do run a lot of pugs and I find most are pretty lawful. Rarely do I see people booted before a quest to let someone else in even in guild runs. (I do see groups disband after quests, but not usually before or during.) The times I'm surprised by pugs are more likely to be good surprises than bad ones. i.e. I met someone I'd not run with yet who was quite good and could solo all the stuff we were running. We had a couple newer players join and he was very patient and made sure people knew where to go.



So what, you're going to start kicking people until an object drops at the kicked person's position? Most likely you'll kick the whole party before realizing you were the one that took it :D

I'm just reminding you that we're talking about people taking an object and going AFK. Not about people that took an object and don't know they have it..

I don't think I said that, but it I was unclear then let me clarify. I was trying to point out that its more common for someone to pick up an item and go afk or destroy it (not knowing what they have) that for someone to steal loot. I wasn't saying I planned to kick people to look for it. Again, this may be a point where your experience with the game has been far more negative than my own.



So, griefing the potential joiners? You can't miss something you never had, right?

If a person used a paid hire and can complete the quest on his own, while it's bad attitude is totally acceptable from Turbine. Turbine is not going to give direct means to players to invalidate paid goods.
It's fine if they do it indirectly (by all dropping group), but not ever directly.

I can already complete 99% of the quests I put up in the LFM without the LFM. I put them up to try to inject some life into the game by leading quests when very few people seem to want to do so. Since that is my goal (getting players to play), someone who won't boot a hire is being unfair to other players who want to join my LFM.

Now, all of these negatives are pretty rare, so if this never happens I don't think its a big deal.


:0
maybe come up w/ New, Improved VIP!



100$ month.
Shiny Gold Nameplates.
Mountable Dire-Tigers (sorry, Rangers only! -Wolf Chewie-Treats not included.)
ability, Once per Month, to punt any player from Quest.
ability, Once per Rest, to punt Flower-Sniffers to the next shrine.
ability, Three Times per Rest, to punt Zerglings back to beginning of Quest.
ability, Five Times per Quest, to pull players from other quests... into yours!
LightSabers! -Coz, hey, if u guyz can believe in Kobolds, Dragons, & 100ft women with boobies hanging out all over, then u can believe in LightSabers too!
Daily gathering of Dev's via Net-Meeting, to compare notes on very important topics, -mainly Ranger updates- ending w/ declaration of raised toasts -to you!


yw :P

Nice!

[Chai]

This game started with the ability of group leaders to kick players when in quest.

Hilarity ensued.

It was removed.

[Brac]

This thread only really needs to be about if the leader should have the ability to boot hirelings. I would think yes.

As many have already pointed out they won't let us kick other players ever again. We couldn't handle the power...

[horriblescarz]

the title says it all.. griefing is against the coc and the tos.. so if someone is griefing your pug SCREEN CAP IT, recall and reform without the griefer, submit a ticket about it.. there is a griefing context in the submit ticket window drop downs.

and finally add that person to squelch, if they are squelched and you are the leader they will be unable to join.. also keep a BLACKLIST of the offenders, i have my blacklist on my bio and included reasons they have been blacklisted.. let others know the person is a waste of air and unworthy of allowing into pugs.

i remember this one guy that used to grease + glitterdust and w/e else he could do to mess with people.. he was also a re-enter. once the word got around he found himself soloing.. eventually he got butthurt and raged in harb gen chat and got the banhammer.. i have not seen him in a very long time.

griefers and stupid people are not worth your time or efforts.

i tend to solo a lot to avoid the new batch of griefers and the eternally stupids.

quest with friends, learn who the FAILS are, FILTER YOUR GROUPS and things will become so much nicer.

i have a huge list of ftards i refuse to run with.. it could be due to bad attitudes or griefing or maybe i just dont like the 'cut of their jib'... if/when these people join pugs i am not leading i let the leader know all about the tard... i usually just post it into party chat so that all can see (even the griefer gets to see it but i dont see their tripe). there is nothing like a good public shaming to get rid of morons.

now i know that my tatics might also be considerd as griefing.. but in my humble defence...'idgaf if it is".
i wont hang out in RL with a clownshoe turd stain so why should i tolerate them in a digital environment.

[Uska]

the title says it all.. griefing is against the coc and the tos.. so if someone is griefing your pug SCREEN CAP IT, recall and reform without the griefer, submit a ticket about it.. there is a griefing context in the submit ticket window drop downs.

and finally add that person to squelch, if they are squelched and you are the leader they will be unable to join.. also keep a BLACKLIST of the offenders, i have my blacklist on my bio and included reasons they have been blacklisted.. let others know the person is a waste of air and unworthy of allowing into pugs.

i remember this one guy that used to grease + glitterdust and w/e else he could do to mess with people.. he was also a re-enter. once the word got around he found himself soloing.. eventually he got butthurt and raged in harb gen chat and got the banhammer.. i have not seen him in a very long time.

griefers and stupid people are not worth your time or efforts.

i tend to solo a lot to avoid the new batch of griefers and the eternally stupids.

quest with friends, learn who the FAILS are, FILTER YOUR GROUPS and things will become so much nicer.

i have a huge list of ftards i refuse to run with.. it could be due to bad attitudes or griefing or maybe i just dont like the 'cut of their jib'... if/when these people join pugs i am not leading i let the leader know all about the tard... i usually just post it into party chat so that all can see (even the griefer gets to see it but i dont see their tripe). there is nothing like a good public shaming to get rid of morons.

now i know that my tatics might also be considerd as griefing.. but in my humble defence...'idgaf if it is".
i wont hang out in RL with a clownshoe turd stain so why should i tolerate them in a digital environment.


There were enough complaints that they took the ability away I had it happen to me once or twice and saw it even more often I even quit a guild over them doing it to people

[Ancient]

No one who would ever want to boot someone should have the power to do so.
and logic behind this at the very least strange statement?

"I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." - Groucho Marx

[Lallajulia]

i have read in this theme word "grief, griefing" many times. maybe, i`m not really understand what is that mean. that means upset someone? hurt feelings? i`m not native english speaker. explain someone please concept of word "grief, griefing", related to ddo as game. tks.

[Faltout]

snip
Because you want to see good in people, it doesn't mean that there are not some people who would abuse this power. Yes, anyone that would do the example I described would immediately get in my enemy list. But he would do it once to me. And once is plenty to get annoyed by a feature that doesn't need to be there. I can handle AFKness because I want to think that the person doing it is not doing it intentionally. But the frustration because someone intentionally grieved me is much worse.
When I was a newbie in the Pit and died in one of the force traps, someone took my stone and threw it into the lava. And he made the comment "Those force traps are... forceful". I was infuriated.

Btw, my experiences from PUGs are mostly good with the exception of the popular quests where you tend to get many zergers. But the mechanics of the game don't allow much grieving. The fact that I can see the potential of grief doesn't mean I'm having a bad experience.

Bottomline, how come all the old players are saying that this WAS a bad feature and you're not?

[Qhualor]

i have read in this theme word "grief, griefing" many times. maybe, i`m not really understand what is that mean. that means upset someone? hurt feelings? i`m not native english speaker. explain someone please concept of word "grief, griefing", related to ddo as game. tks.

A griefer is a player who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways. A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other players, and as such is a particular nuisance, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=griefer

[Uska]

i have read in this theme word "grief, griefing" many times. maybe, i`m not really understand what is that mean. that means upset someone? hurt feelings? i`m not native english speaker. explain someone please concept of word "grief, griefing", related to ddo as game. tks.

In this case it means they let someone help them get to almost to the end of a quest and before xp is awarded or before they loot the chest they would be booted from the group and got nothing but wasted time.

[Kawai]

i have read in this theme word "grief, griefing" many times. maybe, i`m not really understand what is that mean. that means upset someone? hurt feelings? i`m not native english speaker. explain someone please concept of word "grief, griefing", related to ddo as game. tks.

Directions:
enter Pug -with 3-5 Melees- & imbue Terror Arrows...
...alt+tab Benny Hill theme.

-hours of entertainment.

[Vellrad]

I want to be able to kick everyone that enters dungeon with public on setting.

Preferably to 10x10x10 feet room filled with entirely with lava, spikes on floor, walls and ceiling, fire immune lava breathing fiendish sharks with lasers and teleport lock. Of course, automatic soulbinding to those who enter, so they respawn in the same room over and over.

[redoubt]

Bottomline, how come all the old players are saying that this WAS a bad feature and you're not?

I can't ever remember seeing it used in a quest where someone was in the quest with us. I'm not sure I even knew how to use it back then.

Grouping was also different back then. We went with full parties and we waiting for people to get to the quest, then we buffed and started. Maybe by that point you had usually weeded out most griefers?

That said, I won't discount the folks, like Uska, who do remember and can comment from experience the negative affects of it.

[Cardoor]

I want to be able to kick everyone that enters dungeon with public on setting.

Preferably to 10x10x10 feet room filled with entirely with lava, spikes on floor, walls and ceiling, fire immune lava breathing fiendish sharks with lasers and teleport lock. Of course, automatic soulbinding to those who enter, so they respawn in the same room over and over.

"I Kicked A Boy"

When the weather's fine, when it's sunny outside
Think about the time I kicked a boy 'til he cried
Oh, I could've been wrong, but I don't think I was
He's such a child

~ The Sundays

[Wizza]

:0
maybe come up w/ New, Improved VIP!



100$ month.
Shiny Gold Nameplates.
Mountable Dire-Tigers (sorry, Rangers only! -Wolf Chewie-Treats not included.)
ability, Once per Month, to punt any player from Quest.
ability, Once per Rest, to punt Flower-Sniffers to the next shrine.
ability, Three Times per Rest, to punt Zerglings back to beginning of Quest.
ability, Five Times per Quest, to pull players from other quests... into yours!
LightSabers! -Coz, hey, if u guyz can believe in Kobolds, Dragons, & 100ft women with boobies hanging out all over, then u can believe in LightSabers too!
Daily gathering of Dev's via Net-Meeting, to compare notes on very important topics, -mainly Ranger updates- ending w/ declaration of raised toasts -to you!


yw :P

+1, excellent suggestions

[bartharok]

the title says it all.. griefing is against the coc and the tos.. so if someone is griefing your pug SCREEN CAP IT, recall and reform without the griefer, submit a ticket about it.. there is a griefing context in the submit ticket window drop downs.

and finally add that person to squelch, if they are squelched and you are the leader they will be unable to join.. also keep a BLACKLIST of the offenders, i have my blacklist on my bio and included reasons they have been blacklisted.. let others know the person is a waste of air and unworthy of allowing into pugs.

i remember this one guy that used to grease + glitterdust and w/e else he could do to mess with people.. he was also a re-enter. once the word got around he found himself soloing.. eventually he got butthurt and raged in harb gen chat and got the banhammer.. i have not seen him in a very long time.

griefers and stupid people are not worth your time or efforts.

i tend to solo a lot to avoid the new batch of griefers and the eternally stupids.

quest with friends, learn who the FAILS are, FILTER YOUR GROUPS and things will become so much nicer.

i have a huge list of ftards i refuse to run with.. it could be due to bad attitudes or griefing or maybe i just dont like the 'cut of their jib'... if/when these people join pugs i am not leading i let the leader know all about the tard... i usually just post it into party chat so that all can see (even the griefer gets to see it but i dont see their tripe). there is nothing like a good public shaming to get rid of morons.

now i know that my tatics might also be considerd as griefing.. but in my humble defence...'idgaf if it is".
i wont hang out in RL with a clownshoe turd stain so why should i tolerate them in a digital environment.

You sound like someone it must be fun to work with...

[JOTMON]

Because some hirelings are purchased with real money. The only viable solution is to not being able to summon them in the first place, but that is a lot of coding and would solve a tiny portion of the problems currently in the game. And not even an important one.

Giving the leader the option to 'accept/decline summons' the player is trying to summon would allow the purchased hireling to remain unused.

besides.. The leader dismissing the hireling after a party member has been using a summoned minion is a minor inconvenience compared to the party not being able to fill with a real player.

[horriblescarz]

i have read in this theme word "grief, griefing" many times. maybe, i`m not really understand what is that mean. that means upset someone? hurt feelings? i`m not native english speaker. explain someone please concept of word "grief, griefing", related to ddo as game. tks.


griefing is when;
- you rapid post to party chat to push others comments out of the window.. usually done during lengthy explanations for newbs.
- casting grease or sleet storm or glitter dust on ramps and stairs in the hopes someone has no FOM falls and dies or in the midst of a battle.
- spamming acid fog + ottos sphere + blade barrier to lag wipe the party.
- exiting and re-entering to give the re-entry penalty and then dropping from group
- being a massive a#$ clown in general nusience kin a way that disrupts the party.
- FAIL TROLLS, those that intentionally try and wipe parties. i see this a lot in FOT. someone will pull reaver from his tank to the group around tto. fail trolling is not limited to fot.. other forms of fail trolling.. taking the voice or ring or the key in von 5 and dieing in the lava then asking in party chat' ho has the ring and vouce.. or key" this is not exclusive to von5. intentionally killing the thing you have to dfens or impeding others from doing so. using exploits to bug out bosses or objectives.
- sharing the emerald claw quest in the hopes you destroy the silver flame trinket (happened to me) or sharing the quest for von5 which bugs out anyone that accepted it.. they have to abandon quest and retake it to unbug.
- sdpamming inboxes with mail.. or even worse spamming someones mail with items (usually blades of the 6 or 1 copper or similar trash) untill they are maxed and cant recieve any more mailings.. the recipient either has to manually strip the items which is labourious or risk there is not real mail and delete all. this can also be used to prevent the delivery of ah sales or returned items(unless they fixed that).

those are only a few examples of griefing.. the tos states ( skinny version) any action or inactions that impede quest / raid progress is griefing.. but the defintion is also very vauge and leaves a lot to be interpeted allowing for a large grey area or incidents that may or may not be actual griefing it could fall under the harasment rules or both and or other things.

basically if u are a intentional ftard that gets their kicks from messing around with others enjoyment of the game you are a griefer and can get permabanned for it.