the_one_dwarfforged
02-02-2015, 01:05 PM
debated whether or not i would post a thread about this, but given statements by devs i finally decided i had no faith in them to give fighter a respectable revamp without my help. hopefully this gets their attention and early enough that they are willing to at least consider not using whatever godawful designs they were going to go with on their own.
so sev said that at some point they were going to look at fighters and were thinking that the advantage of fighters would be tactical dcs. i would like it if this were a feasible way to separate fighters from other melees, but it really isnt.
-most serious melee builds are already capable of landing their dcs most of the time or better in all content.
-if a fighter has a better dc than the paladin next to him thats great, but so what? pally also lands stunning blow and trip the same amount of time, and the fighter has no additional dc based feats to use. i guess you could replace boots of the innocent if there were something better, but there isnt.
- a bard with the freezing ice line is going to be a better melee ccer as long as they are also able to land their dcs because they will have more helpless causing abilities (including an aoe) which afaik also work on undead and constructs.
-if there was an accompanying increase in enemy saves with this pass, everyone who wasnt already playing a fighter would whine and the saves would get nerfed and fighters are back to being pointless.
-assuming a simple dc advantage would actually be meaningful, how much more dc than a pally or barb would it take for fighters to be useful despite lower dps? 10 points? 20? because of the d20 system, if a fighter has a 20 point dc advantage and that is actually meaningful, that means other classes will fail their tactical dcs almost all the time and might as well not take those feats. i doubt turbine wants to alienate the fotmers playing those classes in that way.
-assuming said dc advantage was meaningful and only fighters took stunning blow and used trip because of it, still kinda meh. thats a grand total of 2 abilities, both of which have 15 second cool downs, one of which doesnt even cause helplessness, and one of which doesnt work on pretty much anything except fleshies.
instead of just inflating fighter dcs pointlessly, i would rather see the class turned into a clickfest which rewards active playing as a means to differentiate it from the current paladin and barbarian which in the hands of most players dont even bother to slot/use trip or stunning blow, and are barely motivated to cleave or heal themselves (barbs dont have to stop fighting to heal for the most part even) or cast previously mandatory defensive buffs like displacement or even move for better positioning against an enemy.
so, i would add several new abilities to either the kensei tree or the fighter bonus feat list which as well as almost completely redoing the kensei tree. all old feats and enhancements need to be given a look to consider updating them to reflect current cost vs reward standards (such as weapon focus/spec feats, fighter tactics enhancement).
feats i would change on the fighter bonus feat list:
-hamstring. buff this feat by having it cause enemies to take helpless damage and be slowed, but not immobilized. add a dc to it (using one of the existing tactical dc mods. trip/sunder/stun). drop sneak attack (rogue level) prereq. basically a melee version of pin.
-slicing blow. remove current effect. replace with: deals 4d6 every 2 seconds for 12 seconds, scales with 200% melee power. assuming thf, lvl 28, dreadnaught with 10 stack blitz thats ~60 dmg average per tick. 360 avg dmg total. considering current auto attack damage, fact of only 80% uptime and fact that it would probably be used mostly/only on bosses (at least probably only getting its full effect on bosses) which also must be susceptible to bleeding (i wouldnt mind if it worked on undead/constructs though) i think thats a meaningful amount for the cost of a feat without being too much.
-improved sunder. add effect on failed fort save: adds 1-3 stacks of vulnerability.
weapon specializtion feats (specialization, not focus): add +5 melee power and ranged power to weapon spec and greater weapon spec for all weapon types. reason: versatility is good and the uniformity is probably easier to code and less breakable...id assume.
weapon focus feats: basic gains 1% double strike/shot, greater gains 2%, superior gains 2%.
feats id add to the fighter bonus feat list:
-knockdown (or tackle, or slam, or some similarly themed name...not important). knocks and enemy to the ground and causes helplessness for 6 seconds, no balance check to get up. dc 10 + str + (one of the currently existing tactical dc mods). cd 15 seconds. requires either 12 fighter levels or greater weapon focus (or some other significant prereq, whatever devs think is more balanced).
-disarm. weapon using enemy cant attack for 6 seconds, does not cause helplessness (if its easier and considered acceptable...causes any enemy to be unable to attack whether or not they use a weapon. i wouldnt have suggested it except "spaghetti code"). dc 10 + str + (one of the currently existing tactical dc mods). cd 15 secs. requires either 12 fighter levels or greater weapon focus.
-deathblow. +(a large amount)[w]. this attack uses double str score to hit and dmg (so for thf/swf, str score is doubled to determine hit/dmg and then the style 1.5 modifer to dmg is applied). cd 15 secs. requires either 12 fighter levels or greater weapon focus.
a kensei tree that isnt shameful (enhancements in tiers listed from left to right for ui purposes):
cores:
-kensei focus
-spiritual bond.
When you have a weapon equipped in your main hand that is part of your Focus, it gains On Vorpal: If this weapon has fewer stacks of Battle Meditation than the number of Kensei Core Abilities you possess, it gains one stack of Battle Meditation: This weapon gains a +1 Insight bonus to Enhancement bonus for 20 seconds. This stacks up to 10 times. On timer expiration, 1 stack of Meditative Focus is removed at a time.
remove: On Vorpal: If this weapon has fewer stacks of Battle Meditation than the number of Kensei Core Abilities you possess, it gains one stack of Battle Meditation / This stacks up to 10 times.
add: On Vorpal: If this weapon has fewer stacks of Battle Meditation than the number of fighter levels you possess, it gains one stack of Battle Meditation / This stacks up to the number of fighter levels you have.
change: phrase "battle meditation" to something else.
-strike with no thought
-power surge
add passive: +2 melee power.
-one cut.
Focus Action Boost: Your currently equipped weapons that are part of your Focus gain the Vorpal ability for 60 seconds. (Cooldown: 1 minute).
replace ^ with: tactical melee attack, deals +3[w], procs 1 stack of adrenaline for 10 seconds.
adrenaline: +3 melee power. this can stack up to 3 times. if adrenaline is already active, additional stacks have the same duration as the active buff.
alacrity.
+2 Strength, +15% Doublestrike, +15% Doubleshot, +2 Action Boost uses, +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats.
bump +2 str to +4 str, fix +2 boosts to actually apply 2 boosts instead of just 1, increase dc bonus from +2 to +3, add: all tactical and focus abilities (cleave, great cleave, stunning blow, trip, sunder, improved sunder, hamstring, slicing blow, knockdown, disarm, one cut, shattering strike, a good death, etc) can now double strike (otherwise what is the point of all the double strike?).
tier 1:
-extra boosts.
reduce ap cost or increase total boosts gained at tier 3.
-weapon group spec.
-exotic weapon mastery.
-adrenaline strike (replace reed in the fail).
deals +0.5/1/2[w], procs adrenaline buff for 10/15/20 secs. 30 sec cd.
adrenaline: +3 melee power. this can stack up to 3 times. if adrenaline is already active, additional stacks have the same duration as the active buff.
-action boost haste.
tier 2:
-tactics.
reduce ap cost or adjust bonus to +1 at rank 1, +2 at rank 2, +3 at rank 3 for +6 total.
-weapon group spec.
-improved dodge.
remove light/no armor req.
remove dodge prereq.
reduce ap cost.
-battle meditation (replace weapon meditation).
For the next 5/10/15 seconds, each time you damage an opponent you gain +1 melee power for 10 seconds. This effect can stack up to 10 times. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)
prereq haste.
costs 1 ap per rank.
-physical training (replaces ascetic training).
you now gain your str modifier to prr when blocking, and use double your str score to checks against knockdown. (or whatever amount/formula so long as this ends up being worth it)
2 ap.
tier 3:
-critical accuracy.
-weapon group spec.
-improved mobility.
remove mobility prereq.
improved dodge remains prereq.
-shattering strike.
change ability mod portion of dc from wis to str.
procs adrenaline for 5/10/15 seconds (the cd on this ability is 20 seconds).
adrenaline: +3 melee power. this can stack up to 3 times. if adrenaline is already active, additional stacks have the same duration as the active buff.
prereq battle meditation.
-str/dex/wis.
tier 4:
-critical damage.
-weapon group spec.
-battle tempo.
all tactical and focus attacks now have a 10% chance to proc adrenaline.
adrenaline: +3 melee power. this can stack up to 3 times. if adrenaline is already active, additional stacks have the same duration as the active buff.
prereq shattering strike.
costs 2 ap.
-focus.
adrenaline can now stack up to 5 times.
adrenaline: +3 melee power. this can stack up to 3 times. if adrenaline is already active, additional stacks have the same duration as the active buff.
costs 2 ap.
-str/dex/wis.
tier 5:
-a good death.
either change from current to: deals +3[w], if target is below 20% health attack adds 300 points to weapon damage (as in firstnumber damage, multipliable by crits). increase ap cost to 2.
or leave current implementation but reduce cd to 6 or 10 or 12 seconds.
-keen edge.
-one with the blade.
prereq keen edge, deadly strike.
-deadly strike.
change from current effect to: tactical melee attack which instantly kills an enemy that fails its save. on a failed attempt deals +10[w]. 30 sec cd.
costs 2 ap.
prereq focus.
-no mercy.
so sev said that at some point they were going to look at fighters and were thinking that the advantage of fighters would be tactical dcs. i would like it if this were a feasible way to separate fighters from other melees, but it really isnt.
-most serious melee builds are already capable of landing their dcs most of the time or better in all content.
-if a fighter has a better dc than the paladin next to him thats great, but so what? pally also lands stunning blow and trip the same amount of time, and the fighter has no additional dc based feats to use. i guess you could replace boots of the innocent if there were something better, but there isnt.
- a bard with the freezing ice line is going to be a better melee ccer as long as they are also able to land their dcs because they will have more helpless causing abilities (including an aoe) which afaik also work on undead and constructs.
-if there was an accompanying increase in enemy saves with this pass, everyone who wasnt already playing a fighter would whine and the saves would get nerfed and fighters are back to being pointless.
-assuming a simple dc advantage would actually be meaningful, how much more dc than a pally or barb would it take for fighters to be useful despite lower dps? 10 points? 20? because of the d20 system, if a fighter has a 20 point dc advantage and that is actually meaningful, that means other classes will fail their tactical dcs almost all the time and might as well not take those feats. i doubt turbine wants to alienate the fotmers playing those classes in that way.
-assuming said dc advantage was meaningful and only fighters took stunning blow and used trip because of it, still kinda meh. thats a grand total of 2 abilities, both of which have 15 second cool downs, one of which doesnt even cause helplessness, and one of which doesnt work on pretty much anything except fleshies.
instead of just inflating fighter dcs pointlessly, i would rather see the class turned into a clickfest which rewards active playing as a means to differentiate it from the current paladin and barbarian which in the hands of most players dont even bother to slot/use trip or stunning blow, and are barely motivated to cleave or heal themselves (barbs dont have to stop fighting to heal for the most part even) or cast previously mandatory defensive buffs like displacement or even move for better positioning against an enemy.
so, i would add several new abilities to either the kensei tree or the fighter bonus feat list which as well as almost completely redoing the kensei tree. all old feats and enhancements need to be given a look to consider updating them to reflect current cost vs reward standards (such as weapon focus/spec feats, fighter tactics enhancement).
feats i would change on the fighter bonus feat list:
-hamstring. buff this feat by having it cause enemies to take helpless damage and be slowed, but not immobilized. add a dc to it (using one of the existing tactical dc mods. trip/sunder/stun). drop sneak attack (rogue level) prereq. basically a melee version of pin.
-slicing blow. remove current effect. replace with: deals 4d6 every 2 seconds for 12 seconds, scales with 200% melee power. assuming thf, lvl 28, dreadnaught with 10 stack blitz thats ~60 dmg average per tick. 360 avg dmg total. considering current auto attack damage, fact of only 80% uptime and fact that it would probably be used mostly/only on bosses (at least probably only getting its full effect on bosses) which also must be susceptible to bleeding (i wouldnt mind if it worked on undead/constructs though) i think thats a meaningful amount for the cost of a feat without being too much.
-improved sunder. add effect on failed fort save: adds 1-3 stacks of vulnerability.
weapon specializtion feats (specialization, not focus): add +5 melee power and ranged power to weapon spec and greater weapon spec for all weapon types. reason: versatility is good and the uniformity is probably easier to code and less breakable...id assume.
weapon focus feats: basic gains 1% double strike/shot, greater gains 2%, superior gains 2%.
feats id add to the fighter bonus feat list:
-knockdown (or tackle, or slam, or some similarly themed name...not important). knocks and enemy to the ground and causes helplessness for 6 seconds, no balance check to get up. dc 10 + str + (one of the currently existing tactical dc mods). cd 15 seconds. requires either 12 fighter levels or greater weapon focus (or some other significant prereq, whatever devs think is more balanced).
-disarm. weapon using enemy cant attack for 6 seconds, does not cause helplessness (if its easier and considered acceptable...causes any enemy to be unable to attack whether or not they use a weapon. i wouldnt have suggested it except "spaghetti code"). dc 10 + str + (one of the currently existing tactical dc mods). cd 15 secs. requires either 12 fighter levels or greater weapon focus.
-deathblow. +(a large amount)[w]. this attack uses double str score to hit and dmg (so for thf/swf, str score is doubled to determine hit/dmg and then the style 1.5 modifer to dmg is applied). cd 15 secs. requires either 12 fighter levels or greater weapon focus.
a kensei tree that isnt shameful (enhancements in tiers listed from left to right for ui purposes):
cores:
-kensei focus
-spiritual bond.
When you have a weapon equipped in your main hand that is part of your Focus, it gains On Vorpal: If this weapon has fewer stacks of Battle Meditation than the number of Kensei Core Abilities you possess, it gains one stack of Battle Meditation: This weapon gains a +1 Insight bonus to Enhancement bonus for 20 seconds. This stacks up to 10 times. On timer expiration, 1 stack of Meditative Focus is removed at a time.
remove: On Vorpal: If this weapon has fewer stacks of Battle Meditation than the number of Kensei Core Abilities you possess, it gains one stack of Battle Meditation / This stacks up to 10 times.
add: On Vorpal: If this weapon has fewer stacks of Battle Meditation than the number of fighter levels you possess, it gains one stack of Battle Meditation / This stacks up to the number of fighter levels you have.
change: phrase "battle meditation" to something else.
-strike with no thought
-power surge
add passive: +2 melee power.
-one cut.
Focus Action Boost: Your currently equipped weapons that are part of your Focus gain the Vorpal ability for 60 seconds. (Cooldown: 1 minute).
replace ^ with: tactical melee attack, deals +3[w], procs 1 stack of adrenaline for 10 seconds.
adrenaline: +3 melee power. this can stack up to 3 times. if adrenaline is already active, additional stacks have the same duration as the active buff.
alacrity.
+2 Strength, +15% Doublestrike, +15% Doubleshot, +2 Action Boost uses, +2 to the DCs of all Tactical Feats.
bump +2 str to +4 str, fix +2 boosts to actually apply 2 boosts instead of just 1, increase dc bonus from +2 to +3, add: all tactical and focus abilities (cleave, great cleave, stunning blow, trip, sunder, improved sunder, hamstring, slicing blow, knockdown, disarm, one cut, shattering strike, a good death, etc) can now double strike (otherwise what is the point of all the double strike?).
tier 1:
-extra boosts.
reduce ap cost or increase total boosts gained at tier 3.
-weapon group spec.
-exotic weapon mastery.
-adrenaline strike (replace reed in the fail).
deals +0.5/1/2[w], procs adrenaline buff for 10/15/20 secs. 30 sec cd.
adrenaline: +3 melee power. this can stack up to 3 times. if adrenaline is already active, additional stacks have the same duration as the active buff.
-action boost haste.
tier 2:
-tactics.
reduce ap cost or adjust bonus to +1 at rank 1, +2 at rank 2, +3 at rank 3 for +6 total.
-weapon group spec.
-improved dodge.
remove light/no armor req.
remove dodge prereq.
reduce ap cost.
-battle meditation (replace weapon meditation).
For the next 5/10/15 seconds, each time you damage an opponent you gain +1 melee power for 10 seconds. This effect can stack up to 10 times. (Cooldown: 30 seconds)
prereq haste.
costs 1 ap per rank.
-physical training (replaces ascetic training).
you now gain your str modifier to prr when blocking, and use double your str score to checks against knockdown. (or whatever amount/formula so long as this ends up being worth it)
2 ap.
tier 3:
-critical accuracy.
-weapon group spec.
-improved mobility.
remove mobility prereq.
improved dodge remains prereq.
-shattering strike.
change ability mod portion of dc from wis to str.
procs adrenaline for 5/10/15 seconds (the cd on this ability is 20 seconds).
adrenaline: +3 melee power. this can stack up to 3 times. if adrenaline is already active, additional stacks have the same duration as the active buff.
prereq battle meditation.
-str/dex/wis.
tier 4:
-critical damage.
-weapon group spec.
-battle tempo.
all tactical and focus attacks now have a 10% chance to proc adrenaline.
adrenaline: +3 melee power. this can stack up to 3 times. if adrenaline is already active, additional stacks have the same duration as the active buff.
prereq shattering strike.
costs 2 ap.
-focus.
adrenaline can now stack up to 5 times.
adrenaline: +3 melee power. this can stack up to 3 times. if adrenaline is already active, additional stacks have the same duration as the active buff.
costs 2 ap.
-str/dex/wis.
tier 5:
-a good death.
either change from current to: deals +3[w], if target is below 20% health attack adds 300 points to weapon damage (as in firstnumber damage, multipliable by crits). increase ap cost to 2.
or leave current implementation but reduce cd to 6 or 10 or 12 seconds.
-keen edge.
-one with the blade.
prereq keen edge, deadly strike.
-deadly strike.
change from current effect to: tactical melee attack which instantly kills an enemy that fails its save. on a failed attempt deals +10[w]. 30 sec cd.
costs 2 ap.
prereq focus.
-no mercy.