Why Warlock?

[Merlin-ator]

I see a lot of people excited for the new class. Even before it was announced, it was a fan-favorite suggestion for new classes, the only thing coming close being Psionics. Not being a PnP player, I want to know - What makes Warlock special? What does a warlock do that other arcanes can't? Is it some sort of flavor class? Are they not affected by ASF? Quadruple spellpoints from Wizard? I'd look it up on D20SRD, but I can't read through their PnP jargon.

[walkin_dude]

I see a lot of people excited for the new class. Even before it was announced, it was a fan-favorite suggestion for new classes, the only thing coming close being Psionics. Not being a PnP player, I want to know - What makes Warlock special? What does a warlock do that other arcanes can't? Is it some sort of flavor class? Are they not affected by ASF? Quadruple spellpoints from Wizard? I'd look it up on D20SRD, but I can't read through their PnP jargon.

I'd also be interested in the answer. Warlock wasn't a thing when I was playing D&D.

[Gauthaag]

simple - to make warlock is lot easier than to make psionics. not mentioning that psionics are actualy two classes psion n psychic warrior.

[Tyrande]

I see a lot of people excited for the new class. Even before it was announced, it was a fan-favorite suggestion for new classes, the only thing coming close being Psionics. Not being a PnP player, I want to know - What makes Warlock special? What does a warlock do that other arcanes can't? Is it some sort of flavor class? Are they not affected by ASF? Quadruple spellpoints from Wizard? I'd look it up on D20SRD, but I can't read through their PnP jargon.

Simple. Warlock can be a caster, a ranged and a melee. All with theoretically Infinite power. They do not use spell points, but their invocations can be used indefinitely; unlike other casters.

They also can have silver or cold iron damage reductions, fast healing; and can wear medium armor.

[LuKaSu]

simple - to make warlock is lot easier than to make psionics. not mentioning that psionics are actualy two classes psion n psychic warrior.

I think this is the reason. Mechanically, warlocks sound like they would be easier to build.

[Hazelnut]

I see a lot of people excited for the new class. Even before it was announced, it was a fan-favorite suggestion for new classes, the only thing coming close being Psionics. Not being a PnP player, I want to know - What makes Warlock special? What does a warlock do that other arcanes can't? Is it some sort of flavor class? Are they not affected by ASF? Quadruple spellpoints from Wizard? I'd look it up on D20SRD, but I can't read through their PnP jargon.

The Warlock uses magic differently from any other spellcasting class (based on PnP). Instead of having spells, the warlock gets inherent spell-like-abilities in the form of their "arcane blast". As the warlock levels, he is able to manipulate the arcane blast to achieve different effects (heal, create magical armor/shield around himself, area effect, etc.). Since the arcane blast is an inherent ability instead of something learned (like wizards and sorcerers), the warlock has a higher hit-die, more weapon proficiencies, and better to-hit than a wizard or sorcerer. Think of the warlock (from PnP) as a fighter-wizard without the need to multiclass.

I put the warlock in the same bucket that I put bards and monks and psionics. A fun idea that doesn't mesh well with the rest of D&D lore. I'm still going to build one when they become available.

My guess, without having any insight into the development process, is that the Warlock class will be created along the lines of the Bard class, with the arcane blast working like bard songs. Of course, no spell points for a warlock so probably a few more uses of the arcane blast than a bard gets bard songs.

[FranOhmsford]

I see a lot of people excited for the new class. Even before it was announced, it was a fan-favorite suggestion for new classes, the only thing coming close being Psionics.

I'd be very surprised indeed if Warlock came anywhere near to Psionicist {or any of the various 3.5 Psychic classes} in the number of times it's been suggested on these forums!

[Monkey-Boy]

5th Edition core-class, that's why.

[LightBear]

Simple. Warlock can be a caster, a ranged and a melee. All with theoretically Infinite power. They do not use spell points, but their invocations can be used indefinitely; unlike other casters.

They also can have silver or cold iron damage reductions, fast healing; and can wear medium armor.

From what I know of them is that meta-magic feats don't work on their magic but martial feats do.

[MonadRebelion]

I suspect the reason it's being made is because they have warlocks in other mmo's. In 4th edition they tried to attract all the mmo players to D&D by turning the game into a pnp mmo. Now they are trying to attract mmo players to DDO with the warlock. Personally, I always hated warlocks in pnp. They don't add anything to the game that doesn't already exist. As far as could tell the only thing they do is muddle class archetypes. On the recent ddo cast ask the debs episode Sev said he was really excited about the new animations for warlocks. That's not the kind of thing that makes me think a class has a good thematic reason to exist. At any rate, if you love sorcerers, but hate their animations you might really like warlocks I'm guessing.

[RD2play]

Personally I am glad that they add Warlock rather than Psionic. since they are only doing a single class atm.

When they do add Psioncs I expect 3 classes one off each melee, caster, specialist, supported by their own ED Sphere thus 3 new destinies. And that they add psionic monsters throughout existing quests and bring a Qoury chain and saga. basically an expansion :) so even more goodies!

Thanks That would be Awesome!!!

[Tyrande]

I think this is the reason. Mechanically, warlocks sound like they would be easier to build.

It is actually very similar to Favored Souls leveling in terms of having elemental resistance;
damage reduction types; and also ability to use medium armor; except a warlock
must be evil or chaotic. They cannot multiclass into monks or paladins.

Favored souls at level 20 also have the Ascendency ability which grant them a SLA with unlimited use, which are similar to Warlock invocations. To pick FVS is also to eliminate redundant code, remove the usage of leap of faith (wings) and the usage of spell points. Then, add Eldritch Blast, blast shapes and other spell like invocations.

Enhancements, I suspect there is going to be one tree very similar to the AOV tree for the caster types, one tree very similar to the warpriest for the melee types, and one tree similar to the AA tree for the ranged types. I would not be surprised if the lantern archon is replaced with an imp which shoots spears instead of light; with a dedicated summoned pet Malicia like creature, which says, "Yes, master, what can I charm for you?" ;)

If I were to code this, I would start from working from the Favored Soul.

I would guess this would NOT be a free class, probably costs around 895 to 995 TP.

[burningwind]

because warlock is a very popular class. even nwn online have them implement before many of the other base class. so bring warlock will give ddo a great boost to player population. that is if they done it right..

[MadCookieQueen]

5th Edition core-class, that's why.

so then I guess we'll get Dragonborn and Gnomes (core races 5th ed) next then...if the logic holds up ;p

[GoldyGopher]

http://test.lfgcomic.com/page/1/

Okay, so Richard and the Tiny **** Adventures are pretty amusing and in part have brought the Warlock's bad self front and center.

In 5th Edition there are 12 base classes
Barbarian
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Fighter
Monk
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue
Sorcerer
Warlock
Wizard

The missing class is the Warlock.

Warlock is a spell caster that is noticeably different than both a Sorcerer and Wizard (who tend to meld together in DDO in terms of play style and meta game) . The big question is how is Turbine going to implement this into the game.

[Valas748]

I see a lot of people excited for the new class. Even before it was announced, it was a fan-favorite suggestion for new classes, the only thing coming close being Psionics. Not being a PnP player, I want to know - What makes Warlock special? What does a warlock do that other arcanes can't? Is it some sort of flavor class? Are they not affected by ASF? Quadruple spellpoints from Wizard? I'd look it up on D20SRD, but I can't read through their PnP jargon.

I'm going to quote a post I put on my guild's website when we were talking the same thing about why Warlocks and what exactly they are. Warlocks are my favorite 3.5 class, they were in the "Complete Arcana" supplement book, and I'm sure everyone here will like this information. I tried to convert PnP jargon to day to day speech and put some ideas on how Turbine will implement them in DDO. Also its quite a long read so grab a water or beer and enjoy reading since this describes warlock extensively.

"Calling warlock a spellcaster is only half true. They can use light armor, get to roll a d6 for hp, can use simple weapons, and can take a feat to allow them to cast in medium armor. Also they gain inherant DR for either DR/Cold Iron or DR/Silver, and Fell Resilience, a slow ticking healing over time ability. Their spells work off of their CHA stat but some spells work off of their CON and INT and if you go melee warlock you'll need STR or DEX depending on your fighting style. Also they don't have spells caster per day or in DDO terms they wont have SP and are limited to choosing 12 invocations. The metamagic feats also do not work with Warlock Invocations which is fine since their spells act like their own metamagics anyway. Their spells, known as invocations, are split into tiers going Least, Lesser, Greater, and Dark. They have four types of spells known as Blast Shape, Blast Essences, Pacts, and SLAs. Essences have two subtypes to it that'll I'll go into more detail when I talk about them.

First off the Pacts. These are 24 hour long buffs but I'm guessing in DDO they'll just be toggle buffs like stances. Pacts are what seperate how a Warlock will be played to another Warlock in the same party. Some examples are:

Dark One's own Luck: Warlock's version of a Paladin's Divine Grace.
Beguiling Influence: Bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.
Leaps and Bounds: Bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble checks.
Enervating Shadow: Bonus to Move Silently and Hide checks as well as deal STR damage to nearby foes.

Then we have your SLAs these are kinda self explanatory since we already have SLAs in game. To recap, theyre clickys. Some examples are:

Chilling Tentacles: An op combination of Web, Entangle, and Ice Storm all in one.
See the Unseen: Gain True Sight.
Spiderwalk: Gain freedom of movement.
Curse of Depair: Use the Bestow Curse spell on target.
Wall of Perilous Flame: Works like the Wall of Fire spell but half its damage is fire and half is evil damage.
Retributive Invisibility: Gain greater invisibility that deals damage to nearby foes when dispelled.
Fell Flight: take a favored soul's wings and make them demonic or fairy depending on contract.
Devour Magic: Use greater dispel and gain temporary hit points based on level of spells dispelled.
Flee the Scene: Ddoor clicky. 'Nough said.

Now we get into the meatier parts of Warlocks. Blast Essences. Lets just back up a bit to level 1. All warlocks no matter which other planar they make a contract with be it Fey, Abyssal, Infernal, or Celestial gain the spell Eldritch Blast. Imagine shooting one magic missile that does 1d6 untyped damage and whos damage increases as you level akin to a rogue's sneak attack. Ok, so back to essences, these bad boys are split into two subtypes. Damage types and Effect types. Damage types change the type of damage your Eldritch Blast deals NOT the amount of damage it deals. That is important to remember. Some examples of damage types are.

Brimestone Blast: Deal fire damage and if target fails a reflex save they burn for a few rounds.
Hellrime Blast: Deal cold damage and if target fials a save(forgot which one) they become slowed.
The almighty Vitriolic Blast: Deal acid damage AND ignore target's spell resistance.

Now for effects these add status alignments to your Blast besides the damage it does. So it could give it a fear effect or negative level effect etc. Some of these blast types are.

Frightful Blast: If target fails a will save they becomes feared.
Beshadowed Blast: If target fails a fortitude save they become blinded.
Bewitching Blast: If target fails a will save they become confused.
Penetrating Blast: Gain a +4 to checks to overcome spell resistance. Stacks with Spell Penetration feats.
Utterdark Blast: If target fails a fortitude check they gain two negative levels.
Deteriorating Blast: If target fails a fortitude save their DR is reduced by 5. This works on all DR no matter what type it is and if the target has multiple DR all of them are reduced by 5.
Retributive Blast: If target fails a reflex save they get knocked down.

Lastly, we have Blast Shapes. These change how your Eldritch Blast looks like and acts. These are also very important like Essences. Some examples are:
Eldritch Spear: Doubles the range of your Blast.
Hideous Blow: This is what makes warlock be better spellswords than bard and EK. What this bad boy does is it makes your Blast damage go onto your weapon. So, if you were using a sword and you used this spell then your sword will not only do its normal damage plus any effects from enchantments it will also do the damage if your Eldritch Blast on top of all that. If dual wielding this effects both weapons.
Eldritch Chain: Makes your Blast work like the Chain Lightning spell.
Eldritch Doom: This one is the one no one is really sure how it works. Its the best shape but how the AoE is handled is never clear. It either makes your Blast work like a Fireball spell or like a Flame Strike spell.
Eldritch Line: Makes your blast work like the Wall of Fire spell.

Now, heres what makes Warlocks fun is that you can have both one Essence and one Blast Shape on at the same time. So you can have Eldritch Line and Utterdark Blast on and make a Wall of Fire like spell that deals untype damage and gives two negative levels to anything that walks through it. Or you can do Eldritch Chain and Deteriorating Blast and lower the DR of everything hit. Or you can do Vitrolic Blast and Eldritch Doom and do an AoE acid spell.

tldr: Warlocks do not play anything like the other spellcasters and can easily fill their own role in a party."

[JOTMON]

I see a lot of people excited for the new class. Even before it was announced, it was a fan-favorite suggestion for new classes, the only thing coming close being Psionics. Not being a PnP player, I want to know - What makes Warlock special? What does a warlock do that other arcanes can't? Is it some sort of flavor class? Are they not affected by ASF? Quadruple spellpoints from Wizard? I'd look it up on D20SRD, but I can't read through their PnP jargon.

Warlocks cast spells but not by using mana, They can cast while wearing armor at higher levels, and/or melee with buffed weapons.

for the most part....
1. The warlock does not cast spells. Instead, he is infused with supernatural energy that allows him to perform magical powers at will
2. School abilities come from the arcane school lists. In addition, the warlock may learn additional school abilities listed in this section. The warlock does not gain any specialist bonuses or bonus spells.
3. The warlock’s level is used to determine the caster level for school abilities. School abilities are not spells and thus cannot be affected by metamagic feats.
4. As the warlock increases in level, he becomes resistant to certain effects and damage reduction against physical attacks.
5. As the warlock increases in level, his school abilities are less subject to arcane failure while the warlock is wearing armor. at higher levels the ASF increases.

[Sebastrd]

In my experience/opinion, the Warlock is an arcane blaster for folks that like the simplicity of a fighter and want to play a caster without all of the bookkeeping. It's a perfect choice in conjunction with the ranged pass on the schedule.

[Ayseifn]

Devs are too scared to nerf things too hard so we get tons of power creep instead, Dark Ones Own Luck is basically Divine Grace for chaotic characters. So everyone can get cha mod to saves with a splash of either paladin or warlock.

[ToastyFred]

I see a lot of people excited for the new class. Even before it was announced, it was a fan-favorite suggestion for new classes, the only thing coming close being Psionics. Not being a PnP player, I want to know - What makes Warlock special? What does a warlock do that other arcanes can't? Is it some sort of flavor class? Are they not affected by ASF? Quadruple spellpoints from Wizard? I'd look it up on D20SRD, but I can't read through their PnP jargon.

Because they are Emo and a lot of D&D players are all Emo and stuff.

[ToastyFred]

simple - to make warlock is lot easier than to make psionics. not mentioning that psionics are actualy two classes psion n psychic warrior.

You forgot Soulknife.

[Ausdoerrt]

Devs are too scared to nerf things too hard so we get tons of power creep instead, Dark Ones Own Luck is basically Divine Grace for chaotic characters. So everyone can get cha mod to saves with a splash of either paladin or warlock.

Depends on implementation. Per PnP, DWOL only boosts one of the three save types, not all. It's also a luck bonus, so it won't stack with some gear. Thus, not quite the DG we're all used to.

Yea, a lot of Warlock toys imitate toys from other classes - with a twist - but usually nowhere near as powerful, in exchange for versatility.

[HatsuharuZ]

Devs are too scared to nerf things too hard so we get tons of power creep instead, Dark Ones Own Luck is basically Divine Grace for chaotic characters. So everyone can get cha mod to saves with a splash of either paladin or warlock.

I believe that Dark Ones' Own Luck only provides a bonus to *one* save at a time. It's not quite as good as DG.

[Uska]

It was a popular choice why I don't know but there are a lot of people who don't want it or didn't want it next. For,me its a stupid pain in the fanny class tjst I will have to,play at least briefly on my main to get out of the way. The truth be to,d I really didn't want any new class and this one is just to generate funds from those thst want it. I would have prefered they finish all of the current classes fix a large number of bugs and add the missing Ebberon races and then maybe a new class.

[Uska]

The Warlock uses magic differently from any other spellcasting class (based on PnP). Instead of having spells, the warlock gets inherent spell-like-abilities in the form of their "arcane blast". As the warlock levels, he is able to manipulate the arcane blast to achieve different effects (heal, create magical armor/shield around himself, area effect, etc.). Since the arcane blast is an inherent ability instead of something learned (like wizards and sorcerers), the warlock has a higher hit-die, more weapon proficiencies, and better to-hit than a wizard or sorcerer. Think of the warlock (from PnP) as a fighter-wizard without the need to multiclass.

I put the warlock in the same bucket that I put bards and monks and psionics. A fun idea that doesn't mesh well with the rest of D&D lore. I'm still going to build one when they become available.

My guess, without having any insight into the development process, is that the Warlock class will be created along the lines of the Bard class, with the arcane blast working like bard songs. Of course, no spell points for a warlock so probably a few more uses of the arcane blast than a bard gets bard songs.

Actually monks and bards are two of the oldest classes in d&d they beat barbs, sorcs by many years and psionics are from 1978 as old as bards but not monks, of course the original bards were very different

[Uska]

so then I guess we'll get Dragonborn and Gnomes (core races 5th ed) next then...if the logic holds up ;p

Gnomes aren't a core 5e race nor are dragonborn I think they are listed as optional or uncommon or something like that although I could be wrong about dragonborn as I banned them and Tieflings from my 5E gsme

[luvirini]

Actually monks and bards are two of the oldest classes in d&d they beat barbs, sorcs by many years and psionics are from 1978 as old as bards but not monks, of course the original bards were very different

Bards were the first what then later became prestige classes.. as you needed X levels of fighter and y levels of thief and z levels off druid or something like that to take bard levels.

[luvirini]

As to: "why warlock?"

I kind of ask myself that a bit too, as the greatest strength of a warlock in P&P is the unlimited blasts but at a slightly lower power than spell users and while DDO has limitations on spell points for characters, the high number of shrines makes most spell casters warlock like in the ability to blast though whole quest at slightly reduced power(use SLAs+non meta magic spells). So the great benefit of Warlocks just is not there. That in turn means that the warlock implementation will have to be fairly different from the P&P equivalent to have a place. But we will see..

[Uska]

Bards were the first what then later became prestige classes.. as you needed X levels of fighter and y levels of thief and z levels off druid or something like that to take bard levels.

Monks are from original d&d the blackmoor supplement I think bards of the type you mention were from 1st Ed AD&D around 2 years later

[Merlin-ator]

Thanks for the responses, everyone! One more question - Is there any synergy at all between Warlock and Monk? It's for a flavor build.

On a related note, is there any armor in the game with the material type "Hair"? Any cloth armor typed as hair?

[Tyrande]

As to: "why warlock?"

I kind of ask myself that a bit too, as the greatest strength of a warlock in P&P is the unlimited blasts but at a slightly lower power than spell users and while DDO has limitations on spell points for characters, the high number of shrines makes most spell casters warlock like in the ability to blast though whole quest at slightly reduced power(use SLAs+non meta magic spells). So the great benefit of Warlocks just is not there. That in turn means that the warlock implementation will have to be fairly different from the P&P equivalent to have a place. But we will see..

Heroic quests might be okay with enough shrines, Epic Normal and Epic Hard might be having enough shrines and spell points. But Epic Elite, not all quests have enough shrines. Also, with 10k hit points per regular monster, and not counting champions. you are certain that regular casters have enough juice to not be drinking all the time? Plus, not everyone has the DC to instant kill EE monsters efficiently.

Remember the when the Shroud was new? VOD was new? There were times you have to bring a pot to buy in to join a raid quest.

Casters have to trade in collectibles, or obtain certain items like the Bauble, or multiclass 3 FvS levels to extend their magical power. An Epic Elite and hell even Epic Hard FOT can have spell casters start with the drinking problem. Also, CITW on anything other than normal... This is not happening with warlocks... Also, why is hard to do MOD on anything other than normal with casters? Even the solo caster who completed MOD drank like 100 pots...

And no, there are fewer and fewer clerics who took the divine vitality enhancements; and also every bard wants to be swashbuckler now..., not spell singer.

I believe the warlock is there to have a fair share of the DPS that melees and monchers have without losing power...and skip the drinking problem...

[Rykka]

5th Edition core-class, that's why.
That and NWO has them and DDO could maybe do them more justice with three trees. Not a fan of the class personally.

[luvirini]

Heroic quests might be okay with enough shrines, Epic Normal and Epic Hard might be having enough shrines and spell points. But Epic Elite, not all quests have enough shrines. Also, with 10k hit points per regular monster, and not counting champions. you are certain that regular casters have enough juice to not be drinking all the time? Plus, not everyone has the DC to instant kill EE monsters efficiently.


No, of course not all quests have enough shrines for EE, but during my whole last sorcerer life that was 15-28 and 2*20-28, mostly running Elite/Epic elite content content I think I used about 20-25 major potions and maybe 20? of some smaller type mainly used for general laziness like drink a minor potion+DD to get to entrance instead of waiting for recall. I could probably have used a less if I had to, but as I have plenty collected during the melee lives why bother..



Remember the when the Shroud was new? VOD was new? There were times you have to bring a pot to buy in to join a raid quest.
Casters have to trade in collectibles, or obtain certain items like the Bauble, or multiclass 3 FvS levels to extend their magical power. An Epic Elite and hell even Epic Hard FOT can have spell casters start with the drinking problem. Also, CITW on anything other than normal... This is not happening with warlocks... Also, why is hard to do MOD on anything other than normal with casters? Even the solo caster who completed MOD drank like 100 pots...

And no, there are fewer and fewer clerics who took the divine vitality enhancements; and also every bard wants to be swashbuckler now..., not spell singer.


I used to do things like farm a torc for my casters, but now it is like "Why bother", but as I said in reduced consumption mode today spell points last a long time. If you are doing things like soloing epic raids, obviously you cannot be on reduced consumption, but soloing normal EE quests you can(run ahead and collect a large enough group and the energy burst->repeat with maybe some SLAs to mop up-depending on the dungeon alert and if you are soloing or not). The game has certainly changed from the time when spell points were always too low.



I believe the warlock is there to have a fair share of the DPS that melees and monchers have without losing power...and skip the drinking problem...

Could be, but as said I have not really seen the drinking problems lately.

I used to have slight drinking problem back in old style epics when soloing them, as some critters had just too many hit points to slowly kill them, but since update 14 came, the banked store of mnemonic potions has just been growing and growing... of course part of it is that learning to conserve I learned in the old style game so ymmv.

[Ayseifn]

Thanks for the responses, everyone! One more question - Is there any synergy at all between Warlock and Monk? It's for a flavor build.

On a related note, is there any armor in the game with the material type "Hair"? Any cloth armor typed as hair?

We don't know how warlocks will be implemented, in PnP it was any evil or chaotic alignment so if that part carries over then no paladin or monk warlocks.

[Feagor]

You forgot Soulknife.

And wilder and (not a core class, I know... but a **** cool race) half-giants!

[janave]

Seems like a fairly straight forward copy past job from existing abilities. Probably going to be heavy on SLAs (like a Sorc), and Toggles (like AA)..

Sounds like another Solo oriented class.

[Ausdoerrt]

Thanks for the responses, everyone! One more question - Is there any synergy at all between Warlock and Monk? It's for a flavor build.

In PnP, yes - Lawful Evil Monk/Warlock is doable. Although IMO Blackguard/Warlock is more fun.

In DDO, depends on how they implement it. Hopefully they choose to provide options rather than limit them. After all, PnP Artificers are "usually lawful", but we don't have that restriction.

[MadCookieQueen]

Gnomes aren't a core 5e race nor are dragonborn I think they are listed as optional or uncommon or something like that although I could be wrong about dragonborn as I banned them and Tieflings from my 5E gsme


Listed in the Player's Handbook...not a supplement book therefore they are considered core races. In the genre they aren't common to be see out and about but then again neither are adventuring groups battling dragons.

[der_kluge]

I remain optimistic. I was skeptical of Artificer as well, but Turbine did a great job there, so I'm hopeful. Otherwise, on paper, Warlock sounds incredibly boring and one-dimensional. I'd rather they spend those resources fixing Cannith Crafting, adding gnomes, adding a new Raid, or maybe another couple of PrCs.

[bartharok]

In PnP, yes - Lawful Evil Monk/Warlock is doable. Although IMO Blackguard/Warlock is more fun.

In DDO, depends on how they implement it. Hopefully they choose to provide options rather than limit them. After all, PnP Artificers are "usually lawful", but we don't have that restriction.

They must be careful with the implementation, since a warlock/monk or a warlock/paladin might be too powerful. And since we already have limitations regarding alignment with several classes, i think that they should keep warlocks chaotic.

[Uska]

Listed in the Player's Handbook...not a supplement book therefore they are considered core races. In the genre they aren't common to be see out and about but then again neither are adventuring groups battling dragons.

Read it again even though its in the PHB its still listed as optional and says not all gms may allow them .

[Uska]

They must be careful with the implementation, since a warlock/monk or a warlock/paladin might be too powerful. And since we already have limitations regarding alignment with several classes, i think that they should keep warlocks chaotic.

Just non-lawful would be enough.

[MadCookieQueen]

Read it again even though its in the PHB its still listed as optional and says not all gms may allow them .


By that reasoning:

As a DM I may not allow Elves...so are they no longer a core race?

When you're the DM...everything is optional...but the core races/classes/mechanics/spells/etc. are always in the PHB to give you everything you need to begin playing.

[bartharok]

Just non-lawful would be enough.

To prevent unwanted combos, yes, but lorewise chaotic would be better. But thats up to turbine.

[General_Gronker]

When they do add Psioncs I expect 3 classes one off each melee, caster, specialist, supported by their own ED Sphere thus 3 new destinies.

Then they'd be doing it wrong. There are four psionics classes. We'd be lucky to get even one. And I bet they'd end up going with the soulknife for that one.

[bartharok]

Then they'd be doing it wrong. There are four psionics classes. We'd be lucky to get even one. And I bet they'd end up going with the soulknife for that one.

Actually, thats the only one I MIGHT like.

[burningwind]

To prevent unwanted combos, yes, but lorewise chaotic would be better. But thats up to turbine.

lorewise warlock can be none evil and chaotic.. just rare~~ the lore only suggest that warlock cannot be lawful, and are mostly chaotic or evil or both. but mostly does not mean all.. plus we don't even have evil alignment...

[HatsuharuZ]

Seriously, that debate has no clear winner. Please stop talking about it. :(

[bartharok]

lorewise warlock can be none evil and chaotic.. just rare~~ the lore only suggest that warlock cannot be lawful, and are mostly chaotic or evil or both. but mostly does not mean all.. plus we don't even have evil alignment...

As said, its also about preventing some combos. And its unlikely that someone lawful neutral or good would go for such a pact.

[bartharok]

Seriously, that debate has no clear winner. Please stop talking about it. :(

If it could have a clear winner it wouldnt be as much fun to discuss it.

[Bzzzt]

Quick clarification as to why we won't be seeing Psionics.
In PnP the distinction between Psionics and other casters (wizards, sorcerers, druids, etc) is the fact that instead of casting out of slots, Psionics have a spellpoint pool that they can focus into creating spells (sound familiar? it should :D).

Every single caster in DDO is already using the Psionic system of casting with various tweaks. It gives casters better endurance (in PnP spells per day results in spells being a short and valuable resource.

[Uska]

By that reasoning:

As a DM I may not allow Elves...so are they no longer a core race?

When you're the DM...everything is optional...but the core races/classes/mechanics/spells/etc. are always in the PHB to give you everything you need to begin playing.

That would be house rules the book specifically says they are optional not core.

[Uska]

To prevent unwanted combos, yes, but lorewise chaotic would be better. But thats up to turbine.

in lore they could always be neural good

[Uska]

Quick clarification as to why we won't be seeing Psionics.
In PnP the distinction between Psionics and other casters (wizards, sorcerers, druids, etc) is the fact that instead of casting out of slots, Psionics have a spellpoint pool that they can focus into creating spells (sound familiar? it should :D).

Every single caster in DDO is already using the Psionic system of casting with various tweaks. It gives casters better endurance (in PnP spells per day results in spells being a short and valuable resource.

Actually dnd has had a spell point system before right along side psionics similar but separate.

[bartharok]

in lore they could always be neural good

Not arguing about if they could, since its fully possible. I just find the flavor of chaotic better.

[Severlin]

Before Warlock we discussed the possibility of the Knight class (from the PH2) with the Player's Council. We have a good design and had good feedback on it but even then it was hard to justify the direct competition with Fighter and Paladin. One of the council members had a great idea of having the Knight have a Man/Woman at Arms which we really liked, but looking back at Artificer the work involved in adding a scaling pet to a class was really expensive, and players could argue that until we work on Artificer pets scaling well into epic adding another class with a companion would be hard to justify.

Psionics is a whole new power source and we couldn't do it justice trying to release a single class. Not only would it feel orphaned with no story support but the normal psionic shtick (spell points) is already used by our casters. An orphaned Psion would function just like a Sorcerer unless we took the time to add new mechanics and the infrastructure for the Psionic power source to the game. In order for us to add Psionics my feeling would be that we would need a whole update with at least Psion and Psychic Warrior. We'd also need to design psionic itemization and storylines for it to feel complete. You know if we did that there would be a lot of players immediately wanting Soul Blades.

We picked Warlock specifically because it's DPS comes largely from Eldritch Blast rather than its spells and that right there will help differentiate the class from our casters.

Sev~

[Tyrande]

in lore they could always be neural good
Not arguing about if they could, since its fully possible. I just find the flavor of chaotic better.

I find the flavor of chaotic better too.

In my experience watching TV shows and past computer games, the warlock is usually the individual who are non-deterministic and do whatever they want individuals. They are mostly male individuals that are working with witches. In English, warlock meant oath breakers, and who has broken the codes of the community; or being driven out of a coven.

Now, both wizards and warlocks are practitioners of magic. Usually the wizard refers to the good guys who give helpful advice to the community. All the stories we heard about wizards were good: Merlin, Harry Potter, Gandalf and even Elminster.

I have yet to hear a good story about warlocks. That does not mean warlocks are evil, but they are most likely erratic, unpredictable and chaotic.
In the 60s/70s there were TV shows "Bewitched" regarding the witch who has a father and he was a warlock.. who showed up unexpectedly, naughty... That's the closest I know of warlocks and their incantations are mostly playful and chaotic, and teasing...

[bartharok]

I find the flavor of chaotic better too.

In my experience watching TV shows and past computer games, the warlock is usually the individual who are non-deterministic and do whatever they want individuals. They are mostly male individuals that are working with witches. In English, warlock meant oath breakers, and who has broken the codes of the community; or being driven out of a coven.

Now, both wizards and warlocks are practitioners of magic. Usually the wizard refers to the good guys who give helpful advice to the community. All the stories we heard about wizards were good: Merlin, Harry Potter, Gandalf and even Elminster.

I have yet to heard a story about warlocks. That does not mean warlocks are evil, but they are most likely erratic, unpredictable and chaotic.
In the 60s/70s there were TV shows "Bewitched" regarding the witch who has a father and he was a warlock.. who showed up unexpectedly, naughty... That's the closest I know of warlocks and their incantations are mostly playful and chaotic, and teasing...

Check out "warlock" a movie from 1989 to see an evil one.

Wizard comes ( as far as i know) from visar, one who knows.

[MadCookieQueen]

Check out "warlock" a movie from 1989 to see an evil one.




loved that movie! good call ^^

[UurlockYgmeov]

Before Warlock we discussed the possibility of the Knight class (from the PH2) with the Player's Council. We have a good design and had good feedback on it but even then it was hard to justify the direct competition with Fighter and Paladin. One of the council members had a great idea of having the Knight have a Man/Woman at Arms which we really liked, but looking back at Artificer the work involved in adding a scaling pet to a class was really expensive, and players could argue that until we work on Artificer pets scaling well into epic adding another class with a companion would be hard to justify.

Psionics is a whole new power source and we couldn't do it justice trying to release a single class. Not only would it feel orphaned with no story support but the normal psionic shtick (spell points) is already used by our casters. An orphaned Psion would function just like a Sorcerer unless we took the time to add new mechanics and the infrastructure for the Psionic power source to the game. In order for us to add Psionics my feeling would be that we would need a whole update with at least Psion and Psychic Warrior. We'd also need to design psionic itemization and storylines for it to feel complete. You know if we did that there would be a lot of players immediately wanting Soul Blades.

We picked Warlock specifically because it's DPS comes largely from Eldritch Blast rather than its spells and that right there will help differentiate the class from our casters.

Sev~

Thank you Sev. good to see the thought process and agree with it.

[ToastyFred]

Before Warlock we discussed the possibility of the Knight class (from the PH2) with the Player's Council. We have a good design and had good feedback on it but even then it was hard to justify the direct competition with Fighter and Paladin. One of the council members had a great idea of having the Knight have a Man/Woman at Arms which we really liked, but looking back at Artificer the work involved in adding a scaling pet to a class was really expensive, and players could argue that until we work on Artificer pets scaling well into epic adding another class with a companion would be hard to justify.

Psionics is a whole new power source and we couldn't do it justice trying to release a single class. Not only would it feel orphaned with no story support but the normal psionic shtick (spell points) is already used by our casters. An orphaned Psion would function just like a Sorcerer unless we took the time to add new mechanics and the infrastructure for the Psionic power source to the game. In order for us to add Psionics my feeling would be that we would need a whole update with at least Psion and Psychic Warrior. We'd also need to design psionic itemization and storylines for it to feel complete. You know if we did that there would be a lot of players immediately wanting Soul Blades.

We picked Warlock specifically because it's DPS comes largely from Eldritch Blast rather than its spells and that right there will help differentiate the class from our casters.
Sev~
Thank you for posting. It makes sense.

BTW...it's "Soulknife," not "Soul Blade."

[FuzzyDuck81]

Who wouldn't want Warlock? Doro Pesch rocks & her solo stuff is awesome too

[Uska]

Who wouldn't want Warlock? Doro Pesch rocks & her solo stuff is awesome too

I wouldn't worst class ever created for d&d .

[GoldyGopher]

Before Warlock we discussed the possibility of the Knight class (from the PH2) with the Player's Council. We have a good design and had good feedback on it but even then it was hard to justify the direct competition with Fighter and Paladin. One of the council members had a great idea of having the Knight have a Man/Woman at Arms which we really liked, but looking back at Artificer the work involved in adding a scaling pet to a class was really expensive, and players could argue that until we work on Artificer pets scaling well into epic adding another class with a companion would be hard to justify.

Psionics is a whole new power source and we couldn't do it justice trying to release a single class. Not only would it feel orphaned with no story support but the normal psionic shtick (spell points) is already used by our casters. An orphaned Psion would function just like a Sorcerer unless we took the time to add new mechanics and the infrastructure for the Psionic power source to the game. In order for us to add Psionics my feeling would be that we would need a whole update with at least Psion and Psychic Warrior. We'd also need to design psionic itemization and storylines for it to feel complete. You know if we did that there would be a lot of players immediately wanting Soul Blades.

We picked Warlock specifically because it's DPS comes largely from Eldritch Blast rather than its spells and that right there will help differentiate the class from our casters.

Sev~

This is a great in-depth answer that I know many people appreciate, myself included. If we get more answers like this forum rage may subside, some.

[SirValentine]

Psionics is a whole new power source and we couldn't do it justice trying to release a single class. Not only would it feel orphaned with no story support but the normal psionic shtick (spell points) is already used by our casters. An orphaned Psion would function just like a Sorcerer unless we took the time to add new mechanics and the infrastructure for the Psionic power source to the game. In order for us to add Psionics my feeling would be that we would need a whole update with at least Psion and Psychic Warrior. We'd also need to design psionic itemization and storylines for it to feel complete. You know if we did that there would be a lot of players immediately wanting Soul Blades.


I agree; I wouldn't want to see a poor approximation of Psionics just randomly thrown in. But I think Psionics is too big to even be "a whole update". More like a whole expansion.

However, if you do ever plan another expansion, keep it in mind. It's a big part of Eberron that we've only seen a little bit of in DDO.

[Uska]

Check out "warlock" a movie from 1989 to see an evil one.

Wizard comes ( as far as i know) from visar, one who knows.

Yeah but he was more like a wizard and nothing like a d&d warlock

[Uska]

So... Exactly, you clearly know that other classes, specifically Artys in this case need "WORK" and we have all been waiting patiently, for that to be done. You seem to realize that players are waiting for that type of thing to be done as well. And considering that Rangers, Mechanics, Artys are all Range based toons, we all find it "hard to justify" making a entire new class based on ranged attacks while our Ranged classes just sit and get ignored and past by.

So why? why insult all of those of us who having been waiting for their classes to get that "work" by ignoring us and the promises made by Turbine regarding "work" and make a ENTIRE NEW CLASS that no one asked for?

Stop. Just stop! finish the work on the classes that have been waiting, played by the players who have stood by and waited. Do not start another class before you do, it will not just be one pass, you know it will take multiple updates to get a entire new class just right. You as the producer owe us our revamps, you are making the calls so YOU owe us revamps.

Stop screwing around with new classes until after you fix all the problems with the "waiting ones".

What is so hard to understand here?

that was my main issue besides not wanting or being interested in warlock at all was there was so many other issues that needed addressing but they can sell this to the people who want it what we want wont make money so it will be long time before we get it if ever.

[bartharok]

Yeah but he was more like a wizard and nothing like a d&d warlock

More like something between a warlock and an evil cleric than a wizard, id say.

[bartharok]

So... Exactly, you clearly know that other classes, specifically Artys in this case need "WORK" and we have all been waiting patiently, for that to be done. You seem to realize that players are waiting for that type of thing to be done as well. And considering that Rangers, Mechanics, Artys are all Range based toons, we all find it "hard to justify" making a entire new class based on ranged attacks while our Ranged classes just sit and get ignored and past by.

So why? why insult all of those of us who having been waiting for their classes to get that "work" by ignoring us and the promises made by Turbine regarding "work" and make a ENTIRE NEW CLASS that no one asked for?

Stop. Just stop! finish the work on the classes that have been waiting, played by the players who have stood by and waited. Do not start another class before you do, it will not just be one pass, you know it will take multiple updates to get a entire new class just right. You as the producer owe us our revamps, you are making the calls so YOU owe us revamps.

Stop screwing around with new classes until after you fix all the problems with the "waiting ones".

What is so hard to understand here?

Primus: Warlock has been asked for, though perhaps not by you

Secundus: What makes you think that they are not trying to figure out how to fix the classes that need fixing.

What is so hard to understand here.

[FestusHood]

They had a warlock on Sleepy Hollow last night. Looked like he was using some kind of eldritch blast during the endfight.

[HAL]

The developers need to balance their work between fixing old content and adding new content. New content keeps players interested in the game.

[Uska]

The developers need to balance their work between fixing old content and adding new content. New content keeps players interested in the game.

I have barley touched any of the new content for years as I don't like epic play much and completely hate the realms, that said I will do both heroic and epic temple

[burningwind]

that was my main issue besides not wanting or being interested in warlock at all was there was so many other issues that needed addressing but they can sell this to the people who want it what we want wont make money so it will be long time before we get it if ever.

come on, shop complaining about warlock~~ are you suggesting that because you don't want it, thats why no one should have it? turbine will release new content for sale reguardless, they spend their resource on fixing issue reguardless of new content development~~ so we either have warlock(which many people want) or another boring content pack..


I have barley touched any of the new content for years as I don't like epic play much and completely hate the realms, that said I will do both heroic and epic temple

you seem to enjoy temple of elemental evil, what if i said i don't want it. the resource that spend on temple of elemental evil should be rather spend on game fixing. would you be happy about it?? would you agree about it?? my friend, please try to walk around in another's shoe.. warlock is a very popular class, turbine will make great earning, more people will return and continue playing the game after its release. even if you don't play warlock you can still enjoy a more populated sever~~ right?

[jaggyjag]

Primus: Warlock has been asked for, though perhaps not by you

Secundus: What makes you think that they are not trying to figure out how to fix the classes that need fixing.

What is so hard to understand here.

1-No it wasn't it was generated at the Dev level, as the post indicate. Try not to confuse emerging excitement by some for any new class incorrectly.

2-As so ably pointed out by Sev, there are finite resources available to Devs, work on the new un-asked for Warlock takes resources away from the promised and long awaited revamps, which is why they are not being done.

Not hard to understand, even when someone like yourself is purposely obtuse and snarky, to no constructive end.



Oh and let me be clear, my objections are not to the Warlock specifically, it is to the broken promises and delay of the deserved and long awaited revamps for the legacy classes, and Artys. Any brand new class, no matter how cool would be objectionable and very very very shortsighted.

[bartharok]

1-No it wasn't it was generated at the Dev level, as the post indicate. Try not to confuse emerging excitement by some for any new class incorrectly.

2-As so ably pointed out by Sev, there are finite resources available to Devs, work on the new un-asked for Warlock takes resources away from the promised and long awaited revamps, which is why they are not being done.

Not hard to understand, even when someone like yourself is purposely obtuse and snarky, to no constructive end.



Oh and let me be clear, my objections are not to the Warlock specifically, it is to the broken promises and delay of the deserved and long awaited revamps for the legacy classes, and Artys. Any brand new class, no matter how cool would be objectionable and very very very shortsighted.

1. Have you checked the suggestions part of the forums? Warlocks (and other classes and races as well) have been asked for for quite a while.

2. Yes, they are not likely to be able to implement any changes while they are building warlock, but they can start planning for them.

[burningwind]

I have barley touched any of the new content for years as I don't like epic play much and completely hate the realms, that said I will do both heroic and epic temple


1-No it wasn't it was generated at the Dev level, as the post indicate. Try not to confuse emerging excitement by some for any new class incorrectly.

2-As so ably pointed out by Sev, there are finite resources available to Devs, work on the new un-asked for Warlock takes resources away from the promised and long awaited revamps, which is why they are not being done.

Not hard to understand, even when someone like yourself is purposely obtuse and snarky, to no constructive end.



Oh and let me be clear, my objections are not to the Warlock specifically, it is to the broken promises and delay of the deserved and long awaited revamps for the legacy classes, and Artys. Any brand new class, no matter how cool would be objectionable and very very very shortsighted.

am sorry to say this.. but warlock and druid were asked nine years ago when i first start ddo.. through out years warlock have been asked countless of time.

turbine will have something for sale once a while, it could be a easy implemented class like warlock.. or it could be a adventure pack. infact warlock seem to be take way less resource compare to one adventure pack and warlock can be sale at twice or more in price. and many people will return to game knowing that warlock will come!! mark my word.. i already have a band of friend came back to prepare for the coming of the warlock..

p.s. do know think that the forum hold all the voice of the player, most of the friend i know have been tired and given up the forum, some don't care at all. nowadays most of the people on forum don't even play XD like me, i just return to ddo game a week ago~~~

[Uska]

come on, shop complaining about warlock~~ are you suggesting that because you don't want it, thats why no one should have it? turbine will release new content for sale reguardless, they spend their resource on fixing issue reguardless of new content development~~ so we either have warlock(which many people want) or another boring content pack..



you seem to enjoy temple of elemental evil, what if i said i don't want it. the resource that spend on temple of elemental evil should be rather spend on game fixing. would you be happy about it?? would you agree about it?? my friend, please try to walk around in another's shoe.. warlock is a very popular class, turbine will make great earning, more people will return and continue playing the game after its release. even if you don't play warlock you can still enjoy a more populated sever~~ right?

No I won't enjoy more population if 99% of it is warlocks I will enjoy it less and as to the temple actually I would rather they had worked on finishing the current eberron storylines and bug fixes and finished the current classes but we need content now and then and classes aren't content

Druids were high on the list of classes asked for warlocks were a lot lower down on the list and I was disappointed in Druids and I like the class a lot.

Oh welcome back to the game.


I am a lot nicer in gsme thsn I am on the forums

[Uska]

1-No it wasn't it was generated at the Dev level, as the post indicate. Try not to confuse emerging excitement by some for any new class incorrectly.

2-As so ably pointed out by Sev, there are finite resources available to Devs, work on the new un-asked for Warlock takes resources away from the promised and long awaited revamps, which is why they are not being done.

Not hard to understand, even when someone like yourself is purposely obtuse and snarky, to no constructive end.



Oh and let me be clear, my objections are not to the Warlock specifically, it is to the broken promises and delay of the deserved and long awaited revamps for the legacy classes, and Artys. Any brand new class, no matter how cool would be objectionable and very very very shortsighted.

To be fair I have been here from the very start and warlocks have been asked for quite a bit but there are several other things that were much more in demand, but it was a fairly popular choice especially some very vocal people I wouldn't put it as a top ten pick but certainly a top 20

[MonadRebelion]

We picked Warlock specifically because it's DPS comes largely from Eldritch Blast rather than its spells and that right there will help differentiate the class from our casters.

Sev~

This will do almost nothing to differentiate it from other classes because there is almost nothing in DDO to make an eldritch blast different from force damage.

[burningwind]

To be fair I have been here from the very start and warlocks have been asked for quite a bit but there are several other things that were much more in demand, but it was a fairly popular choice especially some very vocal people I wouldn't put it as a top ten pick but certainly a top 20

and your point is? everything mus tbe done as your will?

warlock is a core class in 5ed rule, it is one of first class that get implement in other dnd mmo(nwn online). it is a very popular class, and many people like/enjoy it. you may not like it but that does not deny the popularity of warlock~~~ it is definally in top five of my list..

p.s. i find it hard to understand why you complain so much.. if you don't want warlock don't play it, no one is forcing it upon you. the dev want to do it, the majority of us want it.. so why not?

[Uska]

and your point is? everything mus tbe done as your will?

warlock is a core class in 5ed rule, it is one of first class that get implement in other dnd mmo(nwn online). it is a very popular class, and many people like/enjoy it. you may not like it but that does not deny the popularity of warlock~~~ it is definally in top five of my list..

p.s. i find it hard to understand why you complain so much.. if you don't want warlock don't play it, no one is forcing it upon you. the dev want to do it, the majority of us want it.. so why not?

Wrong it's not a majority that wants it and yes it will affect me because people will be playing it and I hope it's a huge disappoitment to everyone who buys it and finally we aren't 5e

[HastyPudding]

Wrong it's not a majority that wants it and yes it will affect me because people will be playing it and I hope it's a huge disappoitment to everyone who buys it and finally we aren't 5e

1. Majority or not, warlock will be a brand new addition to the game that will be DDOStore bought (generates money), it is relatively easy to implement considering the other class options (saves time, saves money, tests the waters), and it's been asked for just as long as druid (people DO want it). Warlock also fits thematically with all the other things planned for this year.

2. You saying you want it to fail reminded me of Rush Limbaugh saying 'I want Obama to fail'. It's a statement made out of ignorance. You don't want it to fail. If it fails, it's wasted time of the development team, and discouraging to the paycheck signers/publishers/big wigs that run the game. If it is a success, the development team can look at it and get more excited about the game, work harder to make other things a success, and want to push out even more new classes and ideas (which in turn generally makes players happy, and happy players spend more money on the game). And NOTHING is perfect the day it is released, no matter what game you're playing or anything else you're buying; glitches and bugs lead to improvements, which leads to progress.

3. I'm with you on the 5E subject; warlock was around long before 5E, so I don't know why people keep referring only to it as if it's the only example we have in DnD. If anything, DDO is halfway between 3.5 and 4E.

[Powskier]

cause it sounds cool, and new new gen, loves gothic sounding stuff

[HastyPudding]

cause it sounds cool, and new new gen, loves gothic sounding stuff

Also, because:

http://i.imgur.com/bWNQt.jpg

[Uska]

1. Majority or not, warlock will be a brand new addition to the game that will be DDOStore bought (generates money), it is relatively easy to implement considering the other class options (saves time, saves money, tests the waters), and it's been asked for just as long as druid (people DO want it). Warlock also fits thematically with all the other things planned for this year.

2. You saying you want it to fail reminded me of Rush Limbaugh saying 'I want Obama to fail'. It's a statement made out of ignorance. You don't want it to fail. If it fails, it's wasted time of the development team, and discouraging to the paycheck signers/publishers/big wigs that run the game. If it is a success, the development team can look at it and get more excited about the game, work harder to make other things a success, and want to push out even more new classes and ideas (which in turn generally makes players happy, and happy players spend more money on the game). And NOTHING is perfect the day it is released, no matter what game you're playing or anything else you're buying; glitches and bugs lead to improvements, which leads to progress.

3. I'm with you on the 5E subject; warlock was around long before 5E, so I don't know why people keep referring only to it as if it's the only example we have in DnD. If anything, DDO is halfway between 3.5 and 4E.

I,want it to fail so they maybe will listen more sev pretty much said he was a fan of the class and if,it fails they might see taking to,short quick cash grab is a bad idea and taking their time to do,so,etching right is the way to go.
And I agrre about what DDO is

[mudfud]

Snip Expensive
Sev~

You realize that spending your money to give us the players want we really want can only help you in the long run by possibly bringing you in more money.

By saying it's too expensive only shows the players what we already know, that you are not willing to put more money into ddo then what is the minimum required to do so.

[HastyPudding]

I,want it to fail so they maybe will listen more sev pretty much said he was a fan of the class and if,it fails they might see taking to,short quick cash grab is a bad idea and taking their time to do,so,etching right is the way to go.
And I agrre about what DDO is

Cash grabs make money. Experience stones were just that, and I'm sure it's a primary source of income over at Turbine. New classes, whatever they will be, are also a cash grab because people will rush to buy it and try it out. If it's done properly, and they spend enough time and resources on it, they'll bring in even more money (as well as more positive feedback). That's an incentive to try even harder and push the envelope on new projects.


You realize that spending your money to give us the players want we really want can only help you in the long run by possibly bringing you in more money.

By saying it's too expensive only shows the players what we already know, that you are not willing to put more money into ddo then what is the minimum required to do so.

1. Turbine staff has repeatedly called DDO's coding the spaghetti code. It's a big, tangled mess that would require A LOT of man hours to unravel. Man hours requires paychecks. Everything is run by money. Simply saying 'do that and get this done by tomorrow' is not an option.

2. Minimum requirement is one thing, but adding psionics is a lot of work. I mean, A LOT. Severlin pretty much already explained it in his post; psionics is a massive undertaking (requiring a lot of man hours, resources, and money: we're talking a summoner expansion followed by another psionics update). Psionics is also pretty much already in the game (psions/wilders are basically wizard/sorcerers of a different flavor) and spell points work almost exactly like power points do in PnP. It's the same concept with the knight class: it just doesn't add anything new, because it would compete with fighters/paladins on the exact same builds (vanguard/defender, mostly), and we already have 2 pet classes that need to be fleshed out before adding another pet class.

3. Redoing enhancement trees and updating classes is good and everybody wants it; but it's not a money-maker. New classes, new packs, new content, and new expansions WILL generate the money required for the man hours to spend on updating enhancements. You have to mix updating the old with implementing the new to make proper money in an MMORPG.

4. Also, as Severlin is basically the current top banana working on DDO right now, it's his say. Sure, he likes warlocks, but if he thinks it's a good fiscal idea to put them in the game, then that's his decision. Catering to every whim of a playerbase creates horrible games because nothing will be balanced properly (and you can't please everybody).

[Drakos]

I see a lot of people excited for the new class. Even before it was announced, it was a fan-favorite suggestion for new classes, the only thing coming close being Psionics. Not being a PnP player, I want to know - What makes Warlock special? What does a warlock do that other arcanes can't? Is it some sort of flavor class? Are they not affected by ASF? Quadruple spellpoints from Wizard? I'd look it up on D20SRD, but I can't read through their PnP jargon.

For starters they aren't spell casters, at least not in the traditional sense. They have a very limited number of SLA's that they can use an unlimited number of times called invocations.

Their main Invocations is their Eldritch blast. The Eldritch Blast starts out as a single target ranged attack with damage that scales as you level like sneak attack damage does for rogue. I say "starts out as" because some of their other invocation choices can enhance the blast. You can add one Shape and one Essence invocation to your blast each time you use it. The Shape invocations do things like make the blast area effect, extend the range, etc... The Essence invocations add secondary effects like poison or change the the damage type.

[Drakos]

I'd be very surprised indeed if Warlock came anywhere near to Psionicist {or any of the various 3.5 Psychic classes} in the number of times it's been suggested on these forums!

Actually I've seen it mentions as much or even more than Psionics.

[Ausdoerrt]

Wrong it's not a majority that wants it and yes it will affect me because people will be playing it and I hope it's a huge disappoitment to everyone who buys it and finally we aren't 5e

Gratz, you just went from unreasonable to negative to toxic. /discussion

[Oxarhamar]

Wrong it's not a majority that wants it and yes it will affect me because people will be playing it and I hope it's a huge disappoitment to everyone who buys it and finally we aren't 5e

Yes we aren't 5E or AD&D or 3.5 or any other incarnation of PnP.

We are DDO. Welcome to the game.

[bartharok]

Gratz, you just went from unreasonable to negative to toxic. /discussion

DiD you expect anything else? He really hates warlocks

[LightBear]

Wrong it's not a majority that wants it and yes it will affect me because people will be playing it and I hope it's a huge disappoitment to everyone who buys it and finally we aren't 5e
No you're wrong as a majority does want new things and the hottest new shiny happens to be a class named Warlock.
Get over it, grow a pair.
You know you love this game as much as I do, no wait judging by your post count you love this game way more then I do.
Sad as it is Turbine can't really do anything to make us leave.

[Uska]

Actually I've seen it mentions as much or even more than Psionics.

Not on any list I saw

[Uska]

No you're wrong as a majority does want new things and the hottest new shiny happens to be a class named Warlock.
Get over it, grow a pair.
You know you love this game as much as I do, no wait judging by your post count you love this game way more then I do.
Sad as it is Turbine can't really do anything to make us leave.

I didn't say a majority doesn't want new things so don't put words in my mouth he said a majority wanted warlocks which is false there are people who want them true but its not a majority of you look up the old threads on what new classes wanted warlock wasn't the top choice.

Also they are getting closer and closer to making me leave in the past I didn't have much choice but now I have more chances to play PnP and there is roll20 and with the DMG for the system I prefer finally at the printer I can truly run the system I want so I will think long and hard if I will renew again but that is months away but I am the least happy with the game that I have ever been.

[Ausdoerrt]

of you look up the old threads on what new classes wanted warlock wasn't the top choice.

Right, it's the most popular among what Turbine can realistically produce at the moment. Sev said as much in his post.

[HastyPudding]

Right, it's the most popular among what Turbine can realistically produce at the moment. Sev said as much in his post.

Exactly.

Psionics is a massive project that would require a ton of work, time, and money. Sure, it'd be possible, but just because it's possible doesn't mean it's fiscally sound.

[Uska]

Right, it's the most popular among what Turbine can realistically produce at the moment. Sev said as much in his post.

Its still not the most popular its just the easiest thing to do which isn't usually the best thing, which would be to finish what we have and to do more dungeons which are real content as opposed to a new class which in reality is only fluff.

[LightBear]

I didn't say a majority doesn't want new things so don't put words in my mouth he said a majority wanted warlocks which is false there are people who want them true but its not a majority of you look up the old threads on what new classes wanted warlock wasn't the top choice.

Also they are getting closer and closer to making me leave in the past I didn't have much choice but now I have more chances to play PnP and there is roll20 and with the DMG for the system I prefer finally at the printer I can truly run the system I want so I will think long and hard if I will renew again but that is months away but I am the least happy with the game that I have ever been.

Best games are the ones going on in your own head.... hmn, sounds a bit scary even. ;)
No AI and GFX is ever going to compete with that.
But you know you're going to be back. :)

Oh and on that majority thingy: I doubt most of us will say nothing if we're asked if we want Warlocks or Nothing as a new class.

[Drakos]

Actually monks and bards are two of the oldest classes in d&d they beat barbs, sorcs by many years and psionics are from 1978 as old as bards but not monks, of course the original bards were very different

Actually, Monks are no where near as old as Bards. Bards were in the core 1st edition books, Monks weren't added until Oriental Adventure came out. It's been a while but I think that Unearthed Arcana also preceded OA, but I can't be sure. I'll look at my 1st edition books and see what the dates say.

[Drakos]

Thanks for the responses, everyone! One more question - Is there any synergy at all between Warlock and Monk? It's for a flavor build.

On a related note, is there any armor in the game with the material type "Hair"? Any cloth armor typed as hair?
A Monk/Warlock could only happen in PnP if you started as a Monk and your alignment shifted from Lawful to Chaotic.

The two classes don't really synergize well. Monks are already a MAD (multiple attribute dependency) and CHA is not one they need. CHA is the primary attribute for Warlock, although it isn't as important as INT would be to a Wizard or CHA to a Sorc since their primary attach, eldritch blast, is unaffected by CHA.

[Drakos]

lorewise warlock can be none evil and chaotic.. just rare~~ the lore only suggest that warlock cannot be lawful, and are mostly chaotic or evil or both. but mostly does not mean all.. plus we don't even have evil alignment...

In the Complete Arcane the Warlock class (the 3.5e book and since DDO is based in 3,5e) states that they MUST BE Chaotic or Evil. Since DDO does not have EVIL PC Alignments then Chaotic would be the requirement.

[Drakos]

1-No it wasn't it was generated at the Dev level, as the post indicate. Try not to confuse emerging excitement by some for any new class incorrectly.
Actually it was. They had a post some time ago asking what classes people would like to see. Warlock was one many voted for. They also did one for races.

[Qhualor]

Actually it was. They had a post some time ago asking what classes people would like to see. Warlock was one many voted for. They also did one for races.

why am I not remembering this poll? did I vote? was it started as an official poll or as a player poll? I just did a quick search and couldn't find it.

[Drakos]

Yes we aren't 5E or AD&D or 3.5 or any other incarnation of PnP.

We are DDO. Welcome to the game.
True, however, the game was developed with 3.5e as the basis. Changes had to be made to make it work as a MMO, but the roots are still 3,5e. It is very valid to compare it to 3.5e, but not 5e.

[Drakos]

why am I not remembering this poll? did I vote? was it started as an official poll or as a player poll? I just did a quick search and couldn't find it.
I can't address most of your questions, obviously, but what I can say is that it wasn't a poll, but it was a thread started by the Turbin staff.

As I said they had one for races and once for classes. I know I posted my preference. Warlock was at the top of my list, psionics didn't make the cut. I have't liked Psionics in any of the editions (1st thru 4th, it hasn't reared it's ugly head in 5th yet).

As for finding the thread, I don't know, I do know it was prior to the switch over to the new boards if that helps.

[burningwind]

why warlock? because we do!
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/OExykL5QnXY/hqdefault.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZI_aEalijE

[Oxarhamar]

True, however, the game was developed with 3.5e as the basis. Changes had to be made to make it work as a MMO, but the roots are still 3,5e. It is very valid to compare it to 3.5e, but not 5e.

maybe originally based on but, now not really considering tha much of our recent timeling in FR all is current 5E stuff.

It is just as silly to compare DDO to 5E as to 3.5

Considering we have Haunted Halls 2E

going to have ToEE AD&D


Yeah No comparing DDO to any single edition for sake of argument is moot. This is DDO..

[Uska]

A Monk/Warlock could only happen in PnP if you started as a Monk and your alignment shifted from Lawful to Chaotic.

The two classes don't really synergize well. Monks are already a MAD (multiple attribute dependency) and CHA is not one they need. CHA is the primary attribute for Warlock, although it isn't as important as INT would be to a Wizard or CHA to a Sorc since their primary attach, eldritch blast, is unaffected by CHA.

Umm no you could started as a lawful evil monk and then switched to warlock

[Uska]

why am I not remembering this poll? did I vote? was it started as an official poll or as a player poll? I just did a quick search and couldn't find it.

many player polls and warlock was never near the top but it did make many players lists.

[Uska]

I can't address most of your questions, obviously, but what I can say is that it wasn't a poll, but it was a thread started by the Turbin staff.

As I said they had one for races and once for classes. I know I posted my preference. Warlock was at the top of my list, psionics didn't make the cut. I have't liked Psionics in any of the editions (1st thru 4th, it hasn't reared it's ugly head in 5th yet).

As for finding the thread, I don't know, I do know it was prior to the switch over to the new boards if that helps.

The threads I remember weren't started by turbine staff they were player started and yes warlock was mentioned by many players it wasn't the most popular by far, many players put it on their lists but usually after several others.

[Uska]

maybe originally based on but, now not really considering tha much of our recent timeling in FR all is current 5E stuff.

It is just as silly to compare DDO to 5E as to 3.5

Considering we have Haunted Halls 2E

going to have ToEE AD&D


Yeah No comparing DDO to any single edition for sake of argument is moot. This is DDO..

It is still about 90% 3.x 5E is very different

[Oxarhamar]

It is still about 90% 3.x 5E is very different

Percentages are not important. The fact remains DDO is not PnP & Xedition arguments are pointless in the context of the game.

[Drakos]

Percentages are not important. The fact remains DDO is not PnP & Xedition arguments are pointless in the context of the game.
Lets just say we disagree on this point. I believe that the root that DDO is based on is very important, expecially when adding new content. The new content should strive to comply with the games origins as much as possible. Therefor, IMHO, the comparison to 3.5e is quite pertinent to the topic.

[Drakos]

Umm no you could started as a lawful evil monk and then switched to warlock
You are correct, I tend to not think in terms of evil alignment because it is not allowed in my PnP games nor in DDO as it stands today. But I did misspeak, in PnP you could be a lawful evil monk, but once you took a single level in warlock you were not allowed to progress in Monk any more (barring the weird monastic orders added in some settings or a feat added toward the end of the versions run).

[Uska]

You are correct, I tend to not think in terms of evil alignment because it is not allowed in my PnP games nor in DDO as it stands today. But I did misspeak, in PnP you could be a lawful evil monk, but once you took a single level in warlock you were not allowed to progress in Monk any more (barring the weird monastic orders added in some settings or a feat added toward the end of the versions run).

Yah i was going by the letter of the law I only allow the good alignments in my PnP game as I set it up for the players to be heros

[losian2]

Before Warlock we discussed the possibility of the Knight class (from the PH2) with the Player's Council. We have a good design and had good feedback on it but even then it was hard to justify the direct competition with Fighter and Paladin. One of the council members had a great idea of having the Knight have a Man/Woman at Arms which we really liked, but looking back at Artificer the work involved in adding a scaling pet to a class was really expensive, and players could argue that until we work on Artificer pets scaling well into epic adding another class with a companion would be hard to justify.

Psionics is a whole new power source and we couldn't do it justice trying to release a single class. Not only would it feel orphaned with no story support but the normal psionic shtick (spell points) is already used by our casters. An orphaned Psion would function just like a Sorcerer unless we took the time to add new mechanics and the infrastructure for the Psionic power source to the game. In order for us to add Psionics my feeling would be that we would need a whole update with at least Psion and Psychic Warrior. We'd also need to design psionic itemization and storylines for it to feel complete. You know if we did that there would be a lot of players immediately wanting Soul Blades.

We picked Warlock specifically because it's DPS comes largely from Eldritch Blast rather than its spells and that right there will help differentiate the class from our casters.

Sev~

I think Warlock is a pretty great option.. I'm also quite excited to see what 'flavor' we get.. There's been a bit of 4th edition creeping into DDO and, honestly, I think it's *great*. 4th has a lot of good ideas that translate well to DDO.

Personally, the second best thing besides playable kobolds would be pact-based enhancements or something.. star pact plzzzzz yessss.

[Drakos]

I think Warlock is a pretty great option.. I'm also quite excited to see what 'flavor' we get.. There's been a bit of 4th edition creeping into DDO and, honestly, I think it's *great*. 4th has a lot of good ideas that translate well to DDO.

Personally, the second best thing besides playable kobolds would be pact-based enhancements or something.. star pact plzzzzz yessss.

Yeah sure 4th edition translates well, it was built like MMO the pen and paper game.

I am not a big fan of 4th ed. creeping into DDO, primarily because the ideas, concepts, and mechanics of 4th ed. don't meld well with 3,5 ed. Since DDO has it's roots in 3.5e I don't think the 4e stuff works well when brought in.

[Seikojin]

so then I guess we'll get Dragonborn and Gnomes (core races 5th ed) next then...if the logic holds up ;p

Gnomes first.

[Uska]

I think Warlock is a pretty great option.. I'm also quite excited to see what 'flavor' we get.. There's been a bit of 4th edition creeping into DDO and, honestly, I think it's *great*. 4th has a lot of good ideas that translate well to DDO.

Personally, the second best thing besides playable kobolds would be pact-based enhancements or something.. star pact plzzzzz yessss.

The only good thing about 4E is they got smart and canceled it. I may not care 5E much but it's much better than 4E and is actually attracting new players to,the gsme

[Funny_looking_mole]

The only good thing about 4E is they got smart and canceled it. I may not care 5E much but it's much better than 4E and is actually attracting new players to,the gsme

I keep hearing that 5th edition is proof that 4th edition failed. However in terms of timeline:

Dungeons and Dragons: 1974-1977 (3 years)
AD&D 1st edition: 1977-1989(12 years)
AD&D 2nd edition: 1989-2000(11 years)
AD&D 3rd edition: 2000-2003 (3 years)
AD&D 3.5 edition: 2003-2008 (5 years)
AD&D 4th edition: 2008-2014 (6 years)
AD&D 5th edition: 2014-

So I suppose if you include 3rd and 3.5 together they were the active game slightly longer than 4th edition, but if you don't than 4th edition was the active D&D game for longer.

[Uska]

I keep hearing that 5th edition is proof that 4th edition failed. However in terms of timeline:

Dungeons and Dragons: 1974-1977 (3 years)
AD&D 1st edition: 1977-1989(12 years)
AD&D 2nd edition: 1989-2000(11 years)
AD&D 3rd edition: 2000-2003 (3 years)
AD&D 3.5 edition: 2003-2008 (5 years)
AD&D 4th edition: 2008-2014 (6 years)
AD&D 5th edition: 2014-

So I suppose if you include 3rd and 3.5 together they were the active game slightly longer than 4th edition, but if you don't than 4th edition was the active D&D game for longer.

Time line is a little off 1st ed wasn't actually fully out until 79 when the dmg came cout and the number of players for 4E was lower than the other editions

[Funny_looking_mole]

Time line is a little off 1st ed wasn't actually fully out until 79 when the dmg came cout and the number of players for 4E was lower than the other editions

True enough on the Dungeon masters guide. And I would be amazed if there was more players for 4th edition than for 3.5, but that says nothing of quality, I bet there was way more players of 2nd edition than there was 3.5 as well. Not even considering how much more competition D&D as time went on (for example WoW came out in 2004) there was also more P&P games on the market than there was when 3.5 was active, not to mention that there was a P&P game designed to try and bring in people that were frustrated with D&D changing their edition. I bet if there was a company trying to pick up old 2nd edition players when 3.0 came out that 3.0/3.5 would not have been nearly as popular.

[Uska]

True enough on the Dungeon masters guide. And I would be amazed if there was more players for 4th edition than for 3.5, but that says nothing of quality, I bet there was way more players of 2nd edition than there was 3.5 as well. Not even considering how much more competition D&D as time went on (for example WoW came out in 2004) there was also more P&P games on the market than there was when 3.5 was active, not to mention that there was a P&P game designed to try and bring in people that were frustrated with D&D changing their edition. I bet if there was a company trying to pick up old 2nd edition players when 3.0 came out that 3.0/3.5 would not have been nearly as popular.

I think 2nd was more successful than 3 or 4 as well but it appears that 5th is on the fast track to being a hit its very popular in the forums I frequent and many players that skipped 3 and 4 are enjoying 5th


Somebody did pick up 1st and 2nd during 3's reign although they had to add quite a bit of humor to it but they had the official rights with the original hackmaster that they jokingly called 4E even before 4E d&d existed. Now they have a proper RPG of their own since WOTC pulled the license when 4E was coming out


and the so called joke edition was pretty successful