Meditating Class Design - Monks

[Tinco]

Hey!

Since Turbine is on a spree to tackle class balance, I'd like to start a thread about Monks. Yeah, I know a lot of preconceptions are that monks are OP, and as I can see, Monkchers are in a decent place, but the 12+ Monk as an unarmed fighter is not. The latest system updates either introduced even more M.A.D. (Harper) oder completely went by the Fistomancer (Armor Up). So what's wrong with the combat style itself, the class features and the enhancement trees?

1. Combat Basics:

Monk unarmed combat relies on several conerstones, most prominently the use of handwraps and pajamas. There are two primary ways to build, either WIS-based for tactics, or STR-based for more damage. He's always using TWF and is offensively strictly STR-based, it's not possible to use any other stat for damage with handwraps.

a) Handwraps: TWF is the forgotten combat style, as many people have noticed. Rangers, Rogues and Monks suffer from its inadequacy compared to SWF/THF the most. There needs to be an update to the whole style and seeing ranger and rogue passes in the near future, I'm decently sure this one is on the dev's agenda. Handwraps themselves still don't work with various enhancements/feats/enchantments and need more love looking at their very bad scaling behavior (20/x2 crit).

b) Pajamas: The protection that went from Hero to Zero. Since unarmed monks can't really build dex-heavy, the unlimited bonus to AC is not particularly helpful. No MRR/PRR at all, and the last eye-opening piece of gear in that slot was the Spider-Spun Caparison from years back. Only Earthstance and the (ab)use of many displacement-clickies provide any survivability toe-on-toe.

c) Tactics: Stunning Fist is working great in all content, but that's pretty much it. QP has been slaughtered and Kukan-Do suffers from Cha-to-DC in harder EE's.

d) Ki-Strikes/Finishers: Well, those have been abandoned in mid-heroics. Their contribution to damage is (for the most part, Iron fist scales well) sad in the bigger picture. This system either needs a heroics-only-tag or an overhaul, the buffs are short and small, the DC-based ones are useless.

e) Stances: For Melee, there's one stance. All relevant defensive bonuses are tied to Earth, the best offensive bonus is there, too. It's a pretty illusionary choice at the moment, other stances need something to make them interesting and Turbine should untie the PRR-enhancements from Earth to any.

f) Self Healing: Again, lost in heroic scaling, effectively there's no self-healing later on. Triple-Pos-Finisher is a drop in the ocean and locks you out of IF-Spam.

g)Boss Damage: For a WIS-build? Ahahaaahaaaa. I shamelessly admit using Tree, otherwise it's just not there.


2. Class features:

...of which the monk has many, some awesome, some not so much. I want to pick the biggest offenders in this section. The most glaring problem at the moment is, that after level 12, the monk is completely done. QP extended the life of the tactician to level 15/16 or even 20, but we all know how that story went. To it:

a) Level-Scaling AC-Bonus: Not up to defensive standards anymore. AC is pretty much an abandoned game system and the monk direly needs some PRR somewhere. Here's the place for it in my opinion.

b) Quivering Palm: Once the joy of the tactician, now relegated to try-try-try-kill. The stacking mechanic on miss is atrocious, the DC a disaster. While I somehow saw a nerf coming back then, you pulled the stunt of giving out a skill-based instakill not much later. This iconic ability needs to be reinstated for the pure and 15+ monk and it should work if you go all-out wis+tactics.

c) Shining Star: This could be awesome for the pure monk, sadly the DC is bad. Off-Stat, no additional scaling, that's it. Why not simply make it a no-save dance (Otto's irresistible) once you invoke our funk-heroes Earth, Wind & Fire?


3. Enhancements:

The Monk trees are a mess. I don't even want to go into the enhancements itself mostly, because even musing over the basic concepts is enough.

a) The Henshin Mystic: HM is a walking T5 for stick builds, anything that should make the HM's flavour is not working past GH Heroic. The spell scaling is not there, the clickies are worse versions of the Thief-Acrobat. This tree should have been and could be the brother of the Eldritch Knight, a hybrid between spell damage and staff combat. For that, especially the cores need a whole lotta love and direction.

b) Ninja Spy: This is the tree that is done best from a flavour and power perspective. It works well for throwers but lacks punch for melee. ToD is not what it used to be in Vale and Amrath, again a scaling issue. This tree could use a SB-treatment regarding Shortswords (Auto-Crit-Adjustment)

c) Shintao Monk: What is this tree even conceptually? A tank? A gimpy paladin? I don't know. I only know that the enhancements have bad dependencies, high costs and low DC's. Tankability is just not there, at least not nearly enough to stand your ground in EE's. The curatives are a joke nowadays and can easily be substitued with potions and low-UMD scrolls. Meditation of War's drawbacks for a non-pure monk are steep. The only direct offensive Bonuses in the whole tree are Empty Hand Mastery (~15 base damage at 28) and Deft Strikes (~5.5% more Damage). That's so bad that it's probably less than Holy Sword alone.

Happy Discussion, please keep it civil. Again, this is about 12+ unarmed Monk builds, not the monsters in the back of your head (the two-splash, the shuricannon or the monkcher).

[LavidDynch]

/signed

Like most classes that haven't got the latest 'Midas' touch by Turbine it just look plain outdated. At least monks excels with Mortal Fear (QP just PM'd me and wonder why it got nerfed in the first place).
I really wished that KI-strikes/comboswould add to DPS and by doing that you could un-nerf QP, as KI would once more be a factor for other things than just abundant step..
Monks should be complicated to play, and rewarded for doing it well.. (kinda like monkcher, I guess)

Violence Begets Violence should work like swashbuckling:
While Swashbuckling (http://ddowiki.com/page/Swashbuckling), every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit

voilá! Shintao monks will have decent boss DPS.

[janave]

Yes, currently unarmed monks, esp after lvl18+ really need some tweaks.

But its a never ending "balancing" until the designers at turbine hq realize they have to fix the broken op stuff *first*, yes it means nerf the abused builds, i know its "sad" and a minor portion of them users might even be so upset to take several weeks off.

In the long run it would be
: less work for the dev team (balance CAN be done, just have to do it properly)
: better balance in the game (less people feel useless due to cheat builds turning otherwise difficult dungeons into a joke)
: better challenges in the game (less "omg!!! game too easy" threads)

and more...

[Blackheartox]

I agree what is said here, im primarly a monk player, monk has been my favorite button mashing class when it came out.
But sadly, nowadays if you want to build something unarmed you go with wolf.
Its stronger better and more useful sadly.

But lets leave that aside for a moment, i played alot with monks during the qpalm era, had my own builds, a pdk monk fighter fucusing primarly on qpalm.
Honestly the nerf is ok, a bit severe but it required a nerf, mainly because i had more dc as qpalm monk back then then as necro wizz with bursted dcs now.
If i remember correctly it was around 102-103 dc or so
It was extremeley out of ballance.
But wrongdoing has been done by totally eliminating that ability from ddo.
A slight nerf not to be able to stack items would had been enough.

Monk unarmed dps?
Well beside tree builds, it just isnt there, whirlwind is really good and fine the proc rate on mortal is amazing but that is not dps, its proc rate that doesnt work on red named.

Oh about tod, honestly i dont see that as a bad ability, with imp sunder and a sunder weapon you can in ee content bring down enemy fort save to the border line to land triple neg debuff finisher and your tod can then proc with sure hit chance for 750 damage, also it can multi proc, main hand offhand and doublestrikes, so basically it can land up to 3-4 times for massive burst dps.
I havent played a lv 28 unarmed monk myself with a thforged debuff pair of wraps, question does the vulnerability affect tods damage as well?
If yes, then that ability is in its correct place imo, do not forget that fact that you can still stun your target before using tod for even more damage, that ability is just fine

Issue with that is that it that most content recently is floded with undead...

[Eth]

Oh about tod, honestly i dont see that as a bad ability, with imp sunder and a sunder weapon you can in ee content bring down enemy fort save to the border line to land triple neg debuff finisher and your tod can then proc with sure hit chance for 750 damage, also it can multi proc, main hand offhand and doublestrikes, so basically it can land up to 3-4 times for massive burst dps.

...and by the time you pulled off your 10 button combo to kill a single mob the barbarian next to you killed the other 15 mobs by holding down Mouse1...

[Tinco]

If i remember correctly it was around 102-103 dc or so
It was extremeley out of ballance.
But wrongdoing has been done by totally eliminating that ability from ddo.
A slight nerf not to be able to stack items would had been enough.


Yeah, I'm not for restoring all former glory. Stunning fist DC should always be the staple of a tactics-build and that's fine. I really don't want sunder bonuses to QP, that would even be worse nowadays with the all-in-one Epic Boots of the Innocent. But - I'd really like to see general tactics bonuses work with QP, I'd gladly take a higher cooldown in exchange.

For ToD you are probably right, I have to admit that I haven't used it in a long time.

Mortal Fear - the latest and greatest brainfart in itemization - might haunt the game for a very, very long time. I don't want to include that in my musings, it's a topic of its own and basing a balance discussion around the last tier of the latest raid crafting that's only wearable at 28 doesn't seem proper.

[janave]

...and by the time you pulled off your 10 button combo to kill a single mob the barbarian next to you killed the other 15 mobs by holding down Mouse1...

lol

[Blackheartox]

...and by the time you pulled off your 10 button combo to kill a single mob the barbarian next to you killed the other 15 mobs by holding down Mouse1...

Hey im just saying its ok for 1 target dps as a ability lol.
But monks can somewhat abuse whirlwind for aoe.
Also a tree monk build has the same aoe rate, properly played even faster clearing capability then current barbs.
Issue is that you need to try hard to reach that point while barb really just holds 1 button and brags in achivment about his mad pro über gaming skills heh

[Eth]

Issue is that you need to try hard to reach that point while barb really just holds 1 button and brags in achivment about his mad pro über gaming skills heh

Yap, that's my main problem with what is melee now and why I don't play a melee anymore.
Not blaming anyone for playing what currently is simply the best, but it has honestly become a pretty boring playstyle (talking about paladins and barbs mainly).

[LavidDynch]

Hey im just saying its ok for 1 target dps as a ability lol.
But monks can somewhat abuse whirlwind for aoe.
Also a tree monk build has the same aoe rate, properly played even faster clearing capability then current barbs.
Issue is that you need to try hard to reach that point while barb really just holds 1 button and brags in achivment about his mad pro über gaming skills heh

A tree build does not have to be monk, a monk alone would make an extremly bad tree build. Besides... there isn't a single tree build in the achievement forums because the fact is: they aren't that great.

I'm not sure if you are being ironic with you evaluation of ToD, but if you are.. I bow down to you master! We are not worthy!

[Robbenklopper]

there are Things that leave pure Monks in the backyard:

Handwraps do fine, but the crit range and factor doesn´t reflect the threatening they really give.

As Long as it´s not possible to get a measurement System for dodge up to 100%, AC for a Monk (even rogue/ranger or whatever) is a mediocre scalement for defense. High AC on a Monk even with up-reflex is not compareable to my fighter S&B for defense.
His skills and abilities make him hard to be hit, and it´s my 72% from AC showing defense and my 28% dodge (+blur/+ghostly) But for Monk, the dodge value should be (for example) the 72% in defense and somehow 28% from AC

While looking at Monk, he´s not a DPS Maschine in my eyes like my THF-Fighter mowing the lawn, but he´s the man to disable/turn-off opponents, find their weak Points (like assasine) and instakill em. While the stuns are ok, QP is not a reliable Partner even at the highest Investments.

For Monks, *kick* is still missing for DPS, either as feat or enhancement. WWA can´t be representative for that.

PRR is ok, but MRR let´s me shake my head. High Reflex or SR can´t compensate in my eyes.

Stances Need an overhaul and should also represent even different ways of martial arts/weapons. For earth, unarmed is suitable but Monks do have more than just fist/shortsword/staff.
Choosing shintao for example, could open up WIS to hit/dmg for unarmed when going up in the core enhancements. An unarmed grandmaster of arts is trained to hit up to 8-times per second (maybe reserve for wind-stance).

Boss fights are and have been meeeh ...

My main is a Monk and i´m devoted to that class, but i recognize myself more on my THF and S&B fighters atm. Monk is still good to Play !
Just my few Nickels about the Monk-Situation.

[phillymiket]

Monk is my favorite class but now it's rendered useless.

The problem is that everything that made Monk special can be replicated with other builds that do better.
Bard took the fastest guy in town thing, Pally took all defense crowns.

The best move is Nerfing. The game is too power creepy.
But that won't happen and I don't want to hear the drama so forget I said that.
So, how to bump up Monk without increasing general power creep too much?

What were Monks strong points in the past?
Defense: great AC, great saves, tops in dodge,.
DPS: Best melee CC, Insta-death option. Best attack speed.
Utility: Speedy, jumpy, self-heals.

Devs need to pick a couple of things and make Monk king of those things again.
Speed? How can toons get any faster? Might as well leave it. This should be the Monks domain but Bard trumped and we can't trump again because of power creep.
PRR? Already to OP in game. Can't touch Pally and shouldn't try.
DPS? Fighter and Barb should be king of that.
CC? Monk is still good there. The problem is that everyone is good there. Fix the bug and Monk looks better again.

That leaves AC, dodge, self-heals, finishing moves, insta-death.

AC - Make Monks king of AC again since they can't get PRR up high.
Dodge - Give Monks (and Rogues) stance/enhancement options to make them the more Dodgy.
Self-Heals - Monks need options that don't become useless. Maybe Lesser Vamp and Vamp as enhancement options?
Finishing Moves - Remove them. Just make them moves that don't need prepping. If you do have a move that requires three strikes to prep than make it a really good move not some stupid de-buff.
Insta-Death - Make QP and ToD a good choice again. If touch of death is less damage than a single Crit by another class than there is a problem.
Stuff and thangs - Think up some neato attack or whatever to make Monks more better. For ex, make Monks be able to Center any weapon, like Kensai, on 5th Tier.

I think a key with buffing Monk is to make the good stuff available only if you have 12+ Monk levels.
If you can bump Dodge, AC etc with only a little Monk splash we will have major creep and that should be avoided.

[Blackheartox]

A tree build does not have to be monk, a monk alone would make an extremly bad tree build. Besides... there isn't a single tree build in the achievement forums because the fact is: they aren't that great.

I'm not sure if you are being ironic with you evaluation of ToD, but if you are.. I bow down to you master! We are not worthy!

No the reason is because people think tree builds are something that needs to stay hidden, dont want it nerfed and thus they dont post into achivment section.
They have more starting int then barbs, thats why they dont post in achivment section.
Monk builds are best tree builds.
And if people call a 12 monk 6 ranger 2 palie a monk, then i can sure as hell call a monk/Wizz or monk/cleric a monk as well.
And monk alone still makes a better tree build then a barb alone.

Tod as a single target dps ability is not bad, tod as a single target ability in recent content that is undead undead and undead is horrible and worthless.
As a stand alone ability it is powerful on correct builds, no im not even close to being sarcastic.
I actually played with it and was impressed how much damage it can output when you land your debuffs, and that was primarly in horns, since after that it became useless.
If new content shifts again to non undead it will become worth it again.
Issue with tod is that it is a t5 locks you out from shintao which has the best t5 /crit and empty hand for most monks.
Also kukan do has a very nice calculation formula so even on a mostly char dump monk its dcs arent that far behind stun fist.

What monks need, is raw unarmed damage boost and that isssue is very basic.
Its not as much a monk issue as it is 2 weapon fight feats issue, since the same issue is being held by rogues and rangers as well now

[Saekee]

/signed

Like most classes that haven't got the latest 'Midas' touch by Turbine it just look plain outdated. At least monks excels with Mortal Fear (QP just PM'd me and wonder why it got nerfed in the first place).
I really wished that KI-strikes/comboswould add to DPS and by doing that you could un-nerf QP, as KI would once more be a factor for other things than just abundant step..
Monks should be complicated to play, and rewarded for doing it well.. (kinda like monkcher, I guess)

Violence Begets Violence should work like swashbuckling:
While Swashbuckling (http://ddowiki.com/page/Swashbuckling), every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit

voilá! Shintao monks will have decent boss DPS.

Your Dirk Jiggler looked pretty awesome in the vids you posted...

[Tinco]

A tree build does not have to be monk, a monk alone would make an extremly bad tree build.

Exactly. Tree is a band-aid because it provides almost completely class-independent DPS by playing it on the verge of an exploit, which is using WW and Cleaves to "cheat" the animation speed (which might or might not be intended, but w/e). Tree builds revolve around getting stacks as efficient as possible and have not much to do with monks in general.

GMoF as the natural ED for Monks shares most problems of the base class. Very funky, decent clickies, nice all-around defensive niche-bonuses, but not enough on the crunch-side. It feels very monk-ish and EiN is still very useful for that one big Moment, but the baseline in terms of offense is lacking.

[Robbenklopper]

GMoF as the natural ED for Monks shares most problems of the base class. Very funky, decent clickies, nice all-around defensive niche-bonuses, but not enough on the crunch-side. It feels very monk-ish and EiN is still very useful for that one big Moment, but the baseline in terms of offense is lacking.

I decided to run only in GMoF with a few exceptions, but it´s a fact that in LD he´s much more powerful. This should not be. And there are other classes who are better in LD.
EiN was fun for a while, but i don´t spend those 2 Points anymore for something that i have use of only every 5 minutes.

[LavidDynch]

GMoF as the natural ED for Monks shares most problems of the base class. Very funky, decent clickies, nice all-around defensive niche-bonuses, but not enough on the crunch-side. It feels very monk-ish and EiN is still very useful for that one big Moment, but the baseline in terms of offense is lacking.

There should really be a +1-2 crit range/multiplier in that tree for unarmed fighting. 19/20 crit range on monks is just not solid vs +280k HP red named in this game.

[Monkey-Boy]

There should really be a +1-2 crit range/multiplier in that tree for unarmed fighting. 19/20 crit range on monks is just not solid vs +280k HP red named in this game.

That's a great idea.

[HastyPudding]

I rather like my pure shintao monk: plenty of healing amp allows for great self-healing with the healing curse, moderate front-line healing (good if you have a devotion item/augment), and great survivability. I don't like being pigeon-holed into earth stance, even though I enjoy the PRR/HP/threat (I actually tend to grab aggro on bosses against vanguards/defenders) and would probably go earth stance, anyway.

That being said, henshin mystic suffers from serious design flaws, especially regarding finisher damage/DC's, the finishers are weak in-and-of-themselves, and the lack of a wisdom-to-attack/wisdom-to-damage mod for quarterstaves. I mean, come on, wisdom is crucial to getting high finisher DC's, why not give it to them in their cores?. In my opinion, it's the worst enhancement tree in the game, because at least the rogue mechanic functions as it should, albeit weakly; henshin's effectiveness is lost somewhere between level 12 and 14.

[Zavier]

I rather like my pure shintao monk: plenty of healing amp allows for great self-healing with the healing curse, moderate front-line healing (good if you have a devotion item/augment), and great survivability.

I would have to agree with this 100%. My completionist, pure shintao in GOF has no issues with self healing or even group healing. I am having a hard time believing the complaints in this thread regarding healing, at least for light monks. Granted my healing amp is over 250, I have a ton of points in heal, wearing devotion and healing lore items, but my aoe heals usually are good for 400+ hp. I crit heal for over a 1000+hp...often. Am I going to keep a party up in an EE run? No. But for EH, it is good enough.

As for the rest of the long list of perceived weaknesses of monks, some of them might be true for someone who wants to run EE content only or are undergeared and underskilled. But for everything else, monks faceroll too, including soloing raids.

Not every class needs to be an easy button.

[Tinco]

I would have to agree with this 100%. My completionist, pure shintao in GOF has no issues with self healing or even group healing.[...]

As for the rest of the long list of perceived weaknesses of monks, some of them might be true for someone who wants to run EE content only or are undergeared and underskilled. But for everything else, monks faceroll too, including soloing raids.

Not every class needs to be an easy button.

Healing Ki heals about 50% more than a single tick of Cocoon every 9 seconds (3x3 seconds CD on the strike), that's the reality of the numbers. I don't consider that good. EH is easy for any character actually using a full destiny, that's just how the game is balanced at the moment. Doesn't change the fact that damage to bosses is laughable and the ways to mitigate boss damage are underdeveloped, too. Nature of the game, because armor changes went by monks and handwraps are always the worst scaling weapons in the game due to their profile and can't keep up once some vertical updates (to use the dev's term) have arrived.

I specifically mentioned a lot of things from a design perspective, especially how many, many monk features were (understandably) not designed with epic levels in mind - which leads to a lot of aspects (Ki usage is a prime example) being horribly outscaled.

I don't want another Pala/Bard level of treatment, I want some dust removed from defining class features and trees, I want a QP that can work in EE and I want some semblance of red-name damage. I consider the monk as the typical last-man-standing and a melee master of mobility/control - and that should have an opportunity cost* in terms of damage - just not more than 50% behind the big dogs.

*and that's where the bard remake went horribly wrong, I despise the precedent that there seemingly is no tradeoff for utility.

Please refrain from bringing in non-arguments like underskilled, that's just embarrassing. The monk is easy-mode already, for example because ki-strikes are a non-factor outside of two. I personally don't consider kiting EE Bosses (a.k.a. outplaying the AI) for an hour skill, either - it's just an annoying lack of damage and PRR.

[Thar]

Hey!

Since Turbine is on a spree to tackle class balance, I'd like to start a thread about Monks. Yeah, I know a lot of preconceptions are that monks are OP, and as I can see, Monkchers are in a decent place, but the 12+ Monk as an unarmed fighter is not. The latest system updates either introduced even more M.A.D. (Harper) oder completely went by the Fistomancer (Armor Up). So what's wrong with the combat style itself, the class features and the enhancement trees?

1. Combat Basics:

Monk unarmed combat relies on several conerstones, most prominently the use of handwraps and pajamas. There are two primary ways to build, either WIS-based for tactics, or STR-based for more damage. He's always using TWF and is offensively strictly STR-based, it's not possible to use any other stat for damage with handwraps.

a) Handwraps: TWF is the forgotten combat style, as many people have noticed. Rangers, Rogues and Monks suffer from its inadequacy compared to SWF/THF the most. There needs to be an update to the whole style and seeing ranger and rogue passes in the near future, I'm decently sure this one is on the dev's agenda. Handwraps themselves still don't work with various enhancements/feats/enchantments and need more love looking at their very bad scaling behavior (20/x2 crit).

b) Pajamas: The protection that went from Hero to Zero. Since unarmed monks can't really build dex-heavy, the unlimited bonus to AC is not particularly helpful. No MRR/PRR at all, and the last eye-opening piece of gear in that slot was the Spider-Spun Caparison from years back. Only Earthstance and the (ab)use of many displacement-clickies provide any survivability toe-on-toe.

c) Tactics: Stunning Fist is working great in all content, but that's pretty much it. QP has been slaughtered and Kukan-Do suffers from Cha-to-DC in harder EE's.

d) Ki-Strikes/Finishers: Well, those have been abandoned in mid-heroics. Their contribution to damage is (for the most part, Iron fist scales well) sad in the bigger picture. This system either needs a heroics-only-tag or an overhaul, the buffs are short and small, the DC-based ones are useless.

e) Stances: For Melee, there's one stance. All relevant defensive bonuses are tied to Earth, the best offensive bonus is there, too. It's a pretty illusionary choice at the moment, other stances need something to make them interesting and Turbine should untie the PRR-enhancements from Earth to any.

f) Self Healing: Again, lost in heroic scaling, effectively there's no self-healing later on. Triple-Pos-Finisher is a drop in the ocean and locks you out of IF-Spam.

g)Boss Damage: For a WIS-build? Ahahaaahaaaa. I shamelessly admit using Tree, otherwise it's just not there.


2. Class features:

...of which the monk has many, some awesome, some not so much. I want to pick the biggest offenders in this section. The most glaring problem at the moment is, that after level 12, the monk is completely done. QP extended the life of the tactician to level 15/16 or even 20, but we all know how that story went. To it:

a) Level-Scaling AC-Bonus: Not up to defensive standards anymore. AC is pretty much an abandoned game system and the monk direly needs some PRR somewhere. Here's the place for it in my opinion.

b) Quivering Palm: Once the joy of the tactician, now relegated to try-try-try-kill. The stacking mechanic on miss is atrocious, the DC a disaster. While I somehow saw a nerf coming back then, you pulled the stunt of giving out a skill-based instakill not much later. This iconic ability needs to be reinstated for the pure and 15+ monk and it should work if you go all-out wis+tactics.

c) Shining Star: This could be awesome for the pure monk, sadly the DC is bad. Off-Stat, no additional scaling, that's it. Why not simply make it a no-save dance (Otto's irresistible) once you invoke our funk-heroes Earth, Wind & Fire?


3. Enhancements:

The Monk trees are a mess. I don't even want to go into the enhancements itself mostly, because even musing over the basic concepts is enough.

a) The Henshin Mystic: HM is a walking T5 for stick builds, anything that should make the HM's flavour is not working past GH Heroic. The spell scaling is not there, the clickies are worse versions of the Thief-Acrobat. This tree should have been and could be the brother of the Eldritch Knight, a hybrid between spell damage and staff combat. For that, especially the cores need a whole lotta love and direction.

b) Ninja Spy: This is the tree that is done best from a flavour and power perspective. It works well for throwers but lacks punch for melee. ToD is not what it used to be in Vale and Amrath, again a scaling issue. This tree could use a SB-treatment regarding Shortswords (Auto-Crit-Adjustment)

c) Shintao Monk: What is this tree even conceptually? A tank? A gimpy paladin? I don't know. I only know that the enhancements have bad dependencies, high costs and low DC's. Tankability is just not there, at least not nearly enough to stand your ground in EE's. The curatives are a joke nowadays and can easily be substitued with potions and low-UMD scrolls. Meditation of War's drawbacks for a non-pure monk are steep. The only direct offensive Bonuses in the whole tree are Empty Hand Mastery (~15 base damage at 28) and Deft Strikes (~5.5% more Damage). That's so bad that it's probably less than Holy Sword alone.

Happy Discussion, please keep it civil. Again, this is about 12+ unarmed Monk builds, not the monsters in the back of your head (the two-splash, the shuricannon or the monkcher).

While I know a lot of monks who seem op, I don't play mine much. Dex build didn't work as you state. Wis seems like the best for stun/dc. it is a lot about the player skills too. To be fair with the pre/armor changes, monks do need some help (rangers more although that thread can't seem to get on the "improvement" topic and just is a back and forth on those who think it was ok 2 yrs ago vs people playing other classes now saying uh no... I hope your thread has better luck with suggestions.

Some additional minor prr/mrr improvement should be possible in the class in shinto is probably the logical place. It has limited dodge improvement in the trees and limited healing (vs epics) in the trees. it doesn't scale as the trees were designed for heroic content which is a problem with most of the pre's. Not sure if they Devs want the class to be more bard/dodge based or if adding prr is something they would entertain. some more inherent dodge/dodgecap would seem to fit the flavor more, but PRR is where the game is going.... maybe some incorporatlity instead like in shadovar race tree would fit the flavor better.

[moo_cow]

Didn't read every point from the OP but I agree. Monks need work, especially their trees. A whole line dedicated too the effects of healing ki, ***. It's all terrible. So many problems and I basically back you on most of your points.

[Grailhawk]

a) Handwraps: TWF is the forgotten combat style, as many people have noticed. Rangers, Rogues and Monks suffer from its inadequacy compared to SWF/THF the most. There needs to be an update to the whole style and seeing ranger and rogue passes in the near future, I'm decently sure this one is on the dev's agenda. Handwraps themselves still don't work with various enhancements/feats/enchantments and need more love looking at their very bad scaling behavior (20/x2 crit).

Full off hand stat damage and no double strike penalty ( main hand DS = Off hand DS for hand wraps) with hand wraps go a long way in making it much better then traditional TWF. They do need an option for Crit% increase some where though, But Unarmed is the best TWF style currently.




b) Pajamas: The protection that went from Hero to Zero. Since unarmed monks can't really build dex-heavy, the unlimited bonus to AC is not particularly helpful. No MRR/PRR at all, and the last eye-opening piece of gear in that slot was the Spider-Spun Caparison from years back. Only Earthstance and the (ab)use of many displacement-clickies provide any survivability toe-on-toe.


Monks can easily obtain 25-30% dodge, they have baked in 20% Concealment, and 25% Incorporeal, that is good defense right there. If you are't using the ki buffs to get then that's an issue between the keyboard and chair not the class. Further more they have an easy 30 PRR (earth Stance and Tier 2 shinto enh) which is enough given every thing else they have going for them. Defense Monks have fine.

[Knobull]

Monks? Oh, you mean Risia Ice Games purple coin farmers.

[Kimeni]

Great post. I am a monk enthusiast that has recently returned to the game on what going to be my final life monk tank/DPS to find myself frustrated in how inadequate and unable to compete with armored classes in damage avoidance and mitigation. This Has really shown through for me in a few EE dungeons I have done as I am catching back up to later content.

As a result I have stepped back and determined to focus on melee/control, however I am honestly left wondering what monks bring to the table now in dungeons that can't be provided better elsewhere. Those aspects have been covered in this thread already. I will press on and try to carve out a role for my monk yet, but I am afraid it isn't going to happen until they get updated or player power gets reigned back in.

Several classes have fast attack speed, fast movement speed, access to abundant step like abilities, high saves, single target CC now. Special unarmed animations are what my favorite premium class has left to it, but I'd really like something unique to offer a group that makes my love for the class warranted.

I am also highly irritated at the new bards. Keeping in mind that bard was my second favorite class, but I don't even want to play one now because of how powerful they are, and how much they stole from my monk.

Anyways, I support your post, and ironically I had just signed in to the forums to post about this, but yours is prepared and worded superbly.

[Tinco]

Full off hand stat damage and no double strike penalty ( main hand DS = Off hand DS for hand wraps) with hand wraps go a long way in making it much better then traditional TWF. They do need an option for Crit% increase some where though, But Unarmed is the best TWF style currently.

You underestimate the crit and the broad availability of armor piercing. It's best for procs, so mortal fear rocks with unarmed, but in general it's not a clear cut at all. If you really want I can math something out tomorrow with Khop vs. Wraps. That still all doesn't mean anything in the world of inadequate Enhancement support and especially in comparison with THF and SWF.



Monks can easily obtain 25-30% dodge, they have baked in 20% Concealment, and 25% Incorporeal, that is good defense right there. If you are't using the ki buffs to get then that's an issue between the keyboard and chair not the class. Further more they have an easy 30 PRR (earth Stance and Tier 2 shinto enh) which is enough given every thing else they have going for them. Defense Monks have fine.

Everyone and their mother has blur on an item*, incorp is 15% over ghostly and those 30 PRR are almost all there are. That + 30% dodge does not even remotely compare to the current protection a heavy armor provides. Wearing a Heavy armor without a shield and without any enhancements already provides as much EHP than (12 AP invested/geared) 30% Dodge + 30 PRR. Just stop assuming things, please, and snarky remarks are unneeded as well.

*anecdotal: Without my pile of displacement clickies I don't think I could bear a lot of EE encounters.

[gwonbush]

Monks? Oh, you mean Risia Ice Games purple coin farmers.

No, that's Druids with Snowslide.

[Kawai]

wish granted!

Monks issued a certificate for pass to come!

...eta: 9 years. :)

get'n back o' the line, u newbs!

[the_one_dwarfforged]

not that id know for sure, because ive never liked monks and only stopped hating them after centered kensei...

but i thought they get full str mod to offhand and mainhand dstrike to offhand. in wind stance you get 10% double strike and +10% offhand proc (as well as +10% from shintao tier 1). sounds like a much better offensive stance for melee, particularly twf.

earth has its benefits but in a strictly dps sense id say wind is superior, if less popular for general usage.

personally i think monks are currently ok in the sense that they are no longer the stupid easy and uber at everything class that they were, and now actually have a role and are complemented by a party. they could use some slight buffing to be more competitive with the retardation of current bards/pallies/barbs but overall i think monks are a healthier class right now than those right.

[moo_cow]

not that id know for sure, because ive never liked monks and only stopped hating them after centered kensei...

but i thought they get full str mod to offhand and mainhand dstrike to offhand. in wind stance you get 10% double strike and +10% offhand proc (as well as +10% from shintao tier 1). sounds like a much better offensive stance for melee, particularly twf.
40 prr
earth has its benefits but in a strictly dps sense id say wind is superior, if less popular for general usage.

personally i think monks are currently ok in the sense that they are no longer the stupid easy and uber at everything class that they were, and now actually have a role and are complemented by a party. they could use some slight buffing to be more competitive with the retardation of current bards/pallies/barbs but overall i think monks are a healthier class right now than those right.

Air is more dps, but it isn't a huge difference in dps. 84 extra hp and 40 prr make up for a bit of that loss.

[Wipey]

GMoF as the natural ED for Monks shares most problems of the base class. Very funky, decent clickies, nice all-around defensive niche-bonuses, but not enough on the crunch-side. It feels very monk-ish and EiN is still very useful for that one big Moment, but the baseline in terms of offense is lacking.
Melee power and "armour up".

The game is not "pull few mobs and immobilize them" anymore, it's full on red alert zerg herding mobs and aoe and cleaves.

Why would you waste time on Petals/Lotus/Kukan do/monk specials or even Stun Fist when you can Blitz like everybody else, with extra boosts, helpless damage and 30 prr to boot.
Illusion of choice, every character is just more effective in LD.
When mobs or encounters pose any threat, every single option for cc or incapatitation is hugely useful.
When you are facerolling the content, you simply remove those from the hotbar ( that's true for any class ).
Imagine a quest where every trash mob is a champion.

It's not just monk class, it's introduction of half arsed broken mechanics. Why would anyone think that doubling melee damage and toons with 200 prr would be a good idea. There's no need for Stun, no need for cc, no need for healing, buffs or using some brain cells.
Blitz and heavy armour - well monks can't really do that so they "suffer" by proxy.

[Tinco]

It's not just monk class, it's introduction of half arsed broken mechanics. Why would anyone think that doubling melee damage and toons with 200 prr would be a good idea. There's no need for Stun, no need for cc, no need for healing, buffs or using some brain cells.
Blitz and heavy armour - well monks can't really do that so they "suffer" by proxy.

That's a good point, comparable to how Enchanters almost died out. Control is mostly a DPS-Selfbuff nowadays.

[Blackheartox]

That's a good point, comparable to how Enchanters almost died out. Control is mostly a DPS-Selfbuff nowadays.

Lol

[General_Gronker]

Wanna fix monks? Go back to the **** book design and ditch all of the stupid Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat/Console BS. Period.

[Eth]

Wanna fix monks? Go back to the **** book design and ditch all of the stupid Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat/Console BS. Period.

Last time I used the Konami Code while playing my monk it autocompleted the quest.
Don't tell anyone.

[Tinco]

Wanna fix monks? Go back to the **** book design and ditch all of the stupid Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat/Console BS. Period.

You never read OA or Tome of Battle, right? ;)

That ship has sailed and I think from a gameplay perspective, the monk is fun. But I think I have a condition anyway, my three most played characters are a Cleric/FvS in EA, an Air Savant and a Monk, I call it "severe Wingitis".

[LavidDynch]

Wanna fix monks? Go back to the **** book design and ditch all of the stupid Street Fighter/Mortal Kombat/Console BS. Period.

Where are the core books for DDO?

If YOU ditch all the Mortal Kombat/Street Fighter/Hello Kitty stuff your monk will be improved on the current live server.

[TeacherSyn]

My thoughts on this. As readers of the guide know, I play pure Monks exclusively, when I'm not dabbling in another class on a different character.



1. Combat Basics:

Monk unarmed combat relies on several conerstones, most prominently the use of handwraps and pajamas. There are two primary ways to build, either WIS-based for tactics, or STR-based for more damage. He's always using TWF and is offensively strictly STR-based, it's not possible to use any other stat for damage with handwraps.

a) Handwraps: TWF is the forgotten combat style, as many people have noticed. Rangers, Rogues and Monks suffer from its inadequacy compared to SWF/THF the most. There needs to be an update to the whole style and seeing ranger and rogue passes in the near future, I'm decently sure this one is on the dev's agenda. Handwraps themselves still don't work with various enhancements/feats/enchantments and need more love looking at their very bad scaling behavior (20/x2 crit).

I wasn't fond, either, of the new enhancements that made Shintao Monks a de facto Earth Stance-required class. My tanker Monk has entered that level 9-12 area where she gets bloodied because of this gray area of sufficient defense (both AC, saves and miss-chance). But she survives. It's a matter of playstyle, and as far as handwraps go, they're plenty that drop that work very well. The Monk's attack speed is counterbalanced to its damage, so I don't see any changes happening here.


b) Pajamas: The protection that went from Hero to Zero. Since unarmed monks can't really build dex-heavy, the unlimited bonus to AC is not particularly helpful. No MRR/PRR at all, and the last eye-opening piece of gear in that slot was the Spider-Spun Caparison from years back. Only Earthstance and the (ab)use of many displacement-clickies provide any survivability toe-on-toe.

Outfits aren't armor. Any unarmed Monk that needs some AC needs to add points to WIS and DEX, in that order, for more AC through DEX bonuses and the Monk AC Bonus feat. It's not AC that hinders my L9-12 Monk, it's the fact that Monks don't take Slashing damage very well until they gain Greater Earth Stance or better Reflex/miss-chance. Surviving hobgoblin hits? OK. Ogres? Not so much. Perhaps a few points into INT and train to get Combat Expertise? It's the reason my Monk can and has gone toe-to-toe with everything it wants to past L16 or so as the combined 30% AC bonus, combined with miss-chance and Reflex, make for a very hardy character. Sounds like you're being a bit too gear-dependent.


c) Tactics: Stunning Fist is working great in all content, but that's pretty much it. QP has been slaughtered and Kukan-Do suffers from Cha-to-DC in harder EE's.

The unarmed Monk's hallmark is Stunning Fist, yes. And people who treated Quivering Palm as an Assassinate move have received their nerf-bat. QP works quite well, but if you're going to try to use that in active combat after the enemies have buffed and can resist the hit better, perhaps a change of tactics, not the feat's specs, are in order. Kukan-Do does require some CHA, so train it or don't use it.


d) Ki-Strikes/Finishers: Well, those have been abandoned in mid-heroics. Their contribution to damage is (for the most part, Iron fist scales well) sad in the bigger picture. This system either needs a heroics-only-tag or an overhaul, the buffs are short and small, the DC-based ones are useless.

While the light Monk's finishers are party-support, an unarmed Ninja Spy's dark finishers are quite powerful, with paralyzing, nauseating (cannot move/cast), or blinding. My ninjas own any place they enter because I can master melee-based crowd control. It just needs WIS, with a bit of CON-damaging weaponry. I have a poison-master build that dominates because of these finishers. Perhaps more WIS is in order? My ninjas are quite happy to paralyze a Epic Hard Drow or anything else for that matter with a 44 WIS or better. If it's not a red-name, it's mine to kill.


e) Stances: For Melee, there's one stance. All relevant defensive bonuses are tied to Earth, the best offensive bonus is there, too. It's a pretty illusionary choice at the moment, other stances need something to make them interesting and Turbine should untie the PRR-enhancements from Earth to any.

Sadly, yes, getting back to Shintao's retooling as Earth-Stance favored. I mentioned Combat Expertise already, which gains you that superior AC bonus but also needed Dodge as you trained it up. There's enough feat slots to train TWF and this feat. The Shintao can use the other stances but I wouldn't recommend it either. As for the ninjas and Henshin Mystics--we're all over the place and use what we want, although I favor Water Stance because of its saves and ki regeneration.


f) Self Healing: Again, lost in heroic scaling, effectively there's no self-healing later on. Triple-Pos-Finisher is a drop in the ocean and locks you out of IF-Spam.

Disagree vehemently here, especially with U24's update to the amp process. I'm seeing a 30% boost in my fighting. All the amp in the world can't help defense problems early on, however, so playstyle is again the problem here.


g)Boss Damage: For a WIS-build? Ahahaaahaaaa. I shamelessly admit using Tree, otherwise it's just not there.

Monks damage quite well, as you know. What are you looking for here? Very high DPS? As melee's go, we have that already. REALLY high DPS? Wrong class. What we make up for in less DPS than a Monkcher is staying power. My tanker enters into solo Elite "Weapons Shipment," Thunderholme and EH "Devil's Assault" to farm, not because they kill faster, but kill much longer. My Shintao is designed to outlast any enemy and does.

I'm going to pick nits on the last of the OP for brevity.


a) The Henshin Mystic: HM is a walking T5 for stick builds, anything that should make the HM's flavour is not working past GH Heroic. The spell scaling is not there, the clickies are worse versions of the Thief-Acrobat. This tree should have been and could be the brother of the Eldritch Knight, a hybrid between spell damage and staff combat. For that, especially the cores need a whole lotta love and direction.

The Mystic is designed to harass by throwing ki-powered damage. Sure, others have blended in some Acrobat for speed, but if high DPS is all you want, fine. But unless you've taken that class to L20 and above, don't complain about what you don't get yet. The Mystic's spell power works awesomely in Draconic Incarnation, among other EDs, and again, work great in Heroics with the right playstyle. You do have to watch your spell power to get it high. But with the right training, you never need to worry about your ki bar. I can outlast a mage because I regenerate so fast, even if he has nothing but mana potions in their inventory.


b) Ninja Spy: This is the tree that is done best from a flavour and power perspective. It works well for throwers but lacks punch for melee. ToD is not what it used to be in Vale and Amrath, again a scaling issue. This tree could use a SB-treatment regarding Shortswords (Auto-Crit-Adjustment)

You shouldn't go there (https://orderofsyncletica.wordpress.com/2014/11/23/purple-haze/). My ninjas are the most superior Monks I have (https://orderofsyncletica.wordpress.com/2014/03/27/magekiller/). Their enhancements are the best change for the class as a whole, especially giving all Monks a chance to add Incorporeality. I'm not sure if you've played the class to its complete tree and levels. I can take a ninja deeper into places where even my tanker fears to go. Now, the ninja works best with shortswords or kamas because their Ninja Poison tears up anything, even red-names, with DoTs that Clerics wish they could have with Divine Punishment. But this is about unarmed stuff, so...

Classes can't do everything, nor should they. I don't need high DPS when I can stop an enemy from fighting altogether. I agree that the Shintao could branch out far more from its Earth Stance dependence. And Mystics are hard to play but far from impossible or gimped. While Ninja Spies are better armed than unarmed, they can still screw with so much while unarmed to the point where I've got statues of enemies surrounding me or casters unable to do anything as I pick them off on my own schedule, not theirs. Your mileage clearly varies, so that's my take.

[Tinco]

My thoughts on this.

Thank you very much for the detailed feedback. I disagree on some points and I have to admit that I don't take obvious gameplay/mechanics advice serious - I'm confident enough to say that I'm well aware of most intricacies.


If it's not a red-name, it's mine to kill
Exactly.


All the amp in the world can't help defense problems early on, however, so playstyle is again the problem here
I made a comment on Healing Ki in another post, it's 150% of one tick cocoon, every 9 seconds. I'm still not impressed at all.

To summarize: My Monk streaks elite in heroic content, I can play almost any non-raid EH quest on level without breaking a sweat. Sadly, that's a given for a reasonably developed and geared character of any class in a full destiny.

The main points are:
1. A lot of monk class/tree features don't scale into Epic(Elite) content as well as they should.
2. Red-named HP are inflated to a point where I don't consider the contribution of my Monk reasonable anymore.
3. Monk's defenses are not up to par with other classes that have to go into melee.

The last class updates gave power back to the class trees - which I conceptually prefer to overwhelming power in ED's, simply because it's more iconic. If that means nerfing the power of LD or AoN, I'm all for it.

[HastyPudding]

The Mystic is designed to harass by throwing ki-powered damage. Sure, others have blended in some Acrobat for speed, but if high DPS is all you want, fine. But unless you've taken that class to L20 and above, don't complain about what you don't get yet. The Mystic's spell power works awesomely in Draconic Incarnation, among other EDs, and again, work great in Heroics with the right playstyle. You do have to watch your spell power to get it high. But with the right training, you never need to worry about your ki bar. I can outlast a mage because I regenerate so fast, even if he has nothing but mana potions in their inventory.

Stop being an apologist. I took a pure henshin (the only way to build a proper henshin, in my opinion, considering a lot of it is based on monk level, not character level) to level 28 and realized the tree is completely flawed. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the idea and theme of henshin mystic and probably nobody was more excited to see it upon the U19 release notes than I. When I played it, I hated then, then I played it again sometime later and felt turbine reach into my chest and pull my heart out, show it to me, then tossed it off a cliff with a patronizing laugh.

- They cannot use metamagics to boost their spellpower like spellcasters, and the tree itself just doesn't add enough spellpower to make a difference. Henshin's unique ki abilities and the fire combo finisher just don't have the damage available to be that useful. Draconic Incarnation is alright, but the abilities are all based on charisma or intelligence, widely considered dump stats for the majority of monk builds (beyond a reasonable 10-12 starting intelligence for skill points or a bit of charisma if you want UMD) and what abilities you gain from draconic are draconic, not henshin, so you can't say henshin is great when you use draconic abilities; henshin is terrible for its intended purpose, draconic is great for its intended purpose, and you are following the rule of thumb that applying something good to something bad makes the latter something decent. Decent -- by definition -- is, was, and always will be only average and will be sub-par in DDO's mechanics and environment. You can use draconic incarnation on a barbarian, and while you might have slightly lower damage, you'll still have the same DC's and effects as a henshin.

- You can outlast a mage, sure, but they'd just as soon one-shot a monster and move on to the next by the time your slow-moving ki abilities even hit the target, if at all. Henshin is nowhere in the ballpark close to the spellpower/damage any halfway decent wizard can put out; not even in the same universe as a sorcerer. Nor should they be. A henshin is not a spellcaster, but the intended purpose is to augment quarterstaff damage with ki/fire/force damage, something in which it fails to deliver in any meaningful or noticeable way.

- Two henshin abilities -- cauldron of flame and focus -- look nice on paper, but in practice they are widely and highly unusable. Both of them require you to stand still, something that is anathema to monks in general, and DDO is based on fast-paced action, which is the direct opposite of these abilities. Cauldron's damage is laughable for a level 18 ability; you'd get more damage from a few auto-attacks with glancing blows from the quarterstaff than with the full time limit of this ability. Focus is completely and utterly flawed; with the time you waste using this ability you'd have done more damage in comparison by auto-attacking with a staff. Even holding it for a few seconds before a boss fight is lost time and dps. Both of these abilities also require a use of meditation, meaning their already limited use is further limited by the amount of meditations you have, which is still low and they don't regenerate.

- The elemental word enhancements are the perfect examples of useless abilities: the only one you'd even consider using is the fire word, and taking 10% more damage from your fire abilites is akin to putting a drop of oil on a pan and putting in a match to see the tiny flame glow before it winks out. The fact that you need all four of them and that they cost 2 AP each in order to obtain void strike (arguably the most useful thing in the henshin tree) is a very serious design flaw. These abilities could easily be replaced with something more useful, say, for example, more ki abilities similar to ki bolt or incinerating wave; weak as said abilities are, they'd be infinitely more useful than the elemental words.

- Ki bolt and incinerating wave: decent damage in heroics and adds the only halfway useable fire/force spell damage in the entire tree. In epics these are a drop in the bucket; you'd most likely deal more damage with one or two auto-attacks than by the time you cast these abilities. While we're on the subject, the fire combo finisher acts just the same; weak damage and very low DC. Oh, and all of these require reflex saves for half damage; sorry henshin mystic, targets that have evasion are going to laugh at you. A lot.

- The AP costs of the henshin tree are EXTREMELY costly; I'd hazard a guess that it's the most expensive tree in the game, I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be far off the mark. Excluding the core abilities, everything in the tree costs 2 AP except two enhancements: negotiator (a next-to-useless fluff buff that exists only for thematic reasons) and contemplation (something I would consider a must-have option for most 12+ monk builds and one of the very few highlights of the tree). Similar abilities in other trees often cost less and give you more bang for you buck.

- Balance in dawn abilities are not bad at all, the exception being that Every Light Casts A Shadow also gives negative levels to party members, giving you the task of constantly seeing if they have death ward on them. For a tier 5 ability to have this kind of a glaring bug for so long is silly, and if it is intended to do this, it's just a very trivial way of balancing a very under-powered tree.

- Lighting the Candle is a decent toggle, if it wasn't for the penalty to ki generation. Other trees, like the assassin, warchanter, and the drow racial tree, have a similar ability, but no penalty whatsoever. Once again, this is a way of balancing a very under-powered tree. You would think you would want to go into the fire stance to make up for the ki generation penalty, which unfortunately gives you a penalty to wisdom, henshin's most important stat. There are so many hidden design flaws in this tree.

- Quick Strike: same exact ability as the rogue acrobat tree, except it has a 20 second cooldown compared to the acrobat's 18/15/12 sec cooldown. Why? Balancing an already under-powered tree.

- There are no +DC items for monks: you can't use spell focus feats/items and tactics items/feats do nothing for henshin ki abilities. The +3 bonus from the henshin tree itself...the developers might as well come to your door and p*ss on your foot for all the good it does. Even a pure monk dumping every stat but wisdom just doesn't have the necessary DC's for most content that any first life, inexperienced caster might obtain automatically. You can rely only on wisdom, which brings me to the last point:

- Henshin mystic suffers from paladin-syndrome: they rely on too many different stats. Henshin mystics are torn between quarterstaff damage or ki DC's, you can't have both at a high level, forcing you to focus more on strength or wisdom. Unfortunately, focusing on wisdom is a dead end because you'll never reach 'reliable' DC's needed for higher EH content and the vast majority of EE content and focusing on strength just makes you a rogue acrobat with no trap skills, weaker staff damage, and more costlier attacks. You would be better off multiclassing rogue to gain access to the acrobat tree in the latter case, which would further weaken what already weak ki abilities you have by taking away monk levels.

TL/DR
Read the above, you're a shining example of the world's current educational system.

[TeacherSyn]

Thank you very much for the detailed feedback. I disagree on some points and I have to admit that I don't take obvious gameplay/mechanics advice serious - I'm confident enough to say that I'm well aware of most intricacies. (...)

I made a comment on Healing Ki in another post, it's 150% of one tick cocoon, every 9 seconds. I'm still not impressed at all.

To summarize: My Monk streaks elite in heroic content, I can play almost any non-raid EH quest on level without breaking a sweat. Sadly, that's a given for a reasonably developed and geared character of any class in a full destiny.

The main points are:
1. A lot of monk class/tree features don't scale into Epic(Elite) content as well as they should.
2. Red-named HP are inflated to a point where I don't consider the contribution of my Monk reasonable anymore.
3. Monk's defenses are not up to par with other classes that have to go into melee.

The last class updates gave power back to the class trees - which I conceptually prefer to overwhelming power in ED's, simply because it's more iconic. If that means nerfing the power of LD or AoN, I'm all for it.

Hopefully I didn't come off as a "know it all." There's still much to learn about the class, which is why I still document about it so. And I wasn't trying to criticize your gameplay, per se, since that's impossible for me to see in your comments. But I feel we can all stand to watch for where we don't take advantage of a class's specific skills and enter into quests just to bludgeon recklessly.

On red-names, I should clarify that my weaponized ninjas excel at killing them, even the Bags o' HP, because of Ninja Poison's powerful DoTs. They easily out-kill my best Shintao for that reason, and that contrast might be a good argument for the devs to review what, if any, special DPS changes should come to the Shintao tree. Melee power might have added this but I haven't either of my Shintaos at Epic levels at this time to compare.

Shintaos can tank decently in light to medium mobs. I'm getting more fond of Ki Shout to do this. The question is, when will they tank? In this player culture where often anyone in party just Leeroys in indiscriminately, aggro control is a bother. That's not a problem of the character, but party mechanics. I lost interest in my first Paladin because he was unemployable.

My opinion on EE is that nothing "scales" into that realm. It's designed to kill anyone with Hulk-Smash mentality, that is, any team that doesn't prepare properly . My successes in EE have been primarily from (surprise) the ninjas because I can control when, even if, enemies see me, and then pick them off. I exercise a lot of stealth tactics, including escape, to make these fights work. Doesn't work for all of course since some EEs are just slay-fests and you're the main course. High fortification (150+) is critical. Aggro control is vital. Pulling is critical. The silly mistakes that bring down hordes at parties in Heroic Elite can get a whole party turned to paste in EE, as you know.

I'd still disagree on you with the general Monk defenses. My tanker at L26 last life had 110 AC, saves in the mid-40s and 18/20/10 Dodge/Concealment/Incorporality. Saves are the "armor" of a Monk in my experience, so if these numbers (along with miss chance) aren't high, no amount of AC makes a difference. My ninjas start at L21 around 65 AC but very high miss chances (26+/20/25) and strong saves for better overall defenses than the Shintao. I'll admit--that's strangely lopsided for a tree that's supposed to tank. But then, the ninja doesn't battle heal. I'd get a few nasty hits on the tank, but her Healing Ki restored her full HP bar in 3-4 cycles. With U24, I expect that to be stronger.

I'm studying where Unyielding Sentinel could make a Shintao a better tanker, or other EDs such as Crusader to make a more damaging tank. I'm curious where you're heading, and it's still a good question. I don't want to pollute the thread more on my "exploits," so I'm looking forward to what changes for unarmed could boost DPS or damage, and where this will be offset to keep the class from truly going overpowered.

[BigErkyKid]

Stop being an apologist. I took a pure henshin (the only way to build a proper henshin, in my opinion, considering a lot of it is based on monk level, not character level) to level 28 and realized the tree is completely flawed. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the idea and theme of henshin mystic and probably nobody was more excited to see it upon the U19 release notes than I. When I played it, I hated then, then I played it again sometime later and felt turbine reach into my chest and pull my heart out, show it to me, then tossed it off a cliff with a patronizing laugh.

.

Don't sweat it. Everyone knows that henshin is completely lackluster. It is the weakest link of a class that over time has gone from awesome to meh.

It was precisely seeing the monk as a perfect example how obviously the game is (relatively) sustained more with rehashes of classes and power creep than with additional content that made me quit DDO.

The players know about all this and so do the devs. They simply don't have the necessary staff to keep the game balanced and clean of bugs and pump out a good number of new quests and raids.

That's unlikely to change, so focus on playing FOTM if you want power. Complaining will do no good.

[TeacherSyn]

Stop being an apologist. I took a pure henshin (the only way to build a proper henshin, in my opinion, considering a lot of it is based on monk level, not character level) to level 28 and realized the tree is completely flawed. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the idea and theme of henshin mystic and probably nobody was more excited to see it upon the U19 release notes than I. When I played it, I hated then, then I played it again sometime later and felt turbine reach into my chest and pull my heart out, show it to me, then tossed it off a cliff with a patronizing laugh.

- They cannot use metamagics to boost their spellpower like spellcasters, and the tree itself just doesn't add enough spellpower to make a difference. Henshin's unique ki abilities and the fire combo finisher just don't have the damage available to be that useful. Draconic Incarnation is alright, but the abilities are all based on charisma or intelligence, widely considered dump stats for the majority of monk builds (beyond a reasonable 10-12 starting intelligence for skill points or a bit of charisma if you want UMD) and what abilities you gain from draconic are draconic, not henshin, so you can't say henshin is great when you use draconic abilities; henshin is terrible for its intended purpose, draconic is great for its intended purpose, and you are following the rule of thumb that applying something good to something bad makes the latter something decent. Decent -- by definition -- is, was, and always will be only average and will be sub-par in DDO's mechanics and environment. You can use draconic incarnation on a barbarian, and while you might have slightly lower damage, you'll still have the same DC's and effects as a henshin.

- You can outlast a mage, sure, but they'd just as soon one-shot a monster and move on to the next by the time your slow-moving ki abilities even hit the target, if at all. Henshin is nowhere in the ballpark close to the spellpower/damage any halfway decent wizard can put out; not even in the same universe as a sorcerer. Nor should they be. A henshin is not a spellcaster, but the intended purpose is to augment quarterstaff damage with ki/fire/force damage, something in which it fails to deliver in any meaningful or noticeable way.

- Two henshin abilities -- cauldron of flame and focus -- look nice on paper, but in practice they are widely and highly unusable. Both of them require you to stand still, something that is anathema to monks in general, and DDO is based on fast-paced action, which is the direct opposite of these abilities. Cauldron's damage is laughable for a level 18 ability; you'd get more damage from a few auto-attacks with glancing blows from the quarterstaff than with the full time limit of this ability. Focus is completely and utterly flawed; with the time you waste using this ability you'd have done more damage in comparison by auto-attacking with a staff. Even holding it for a few seconds before a boss fight is lost time and dps. Both of these abilities also require a use of meditation, meaning their already limited use is further limited by the amount of meditations you have, which is still low and they don't regenerate.

- The elemental word enhancements are the perfect examples of useless abilities: the only one you'd even consider using is the fire word, and taking 10% more damage from your fire abilites is akin to putting a drop of oil on a pan and putting in a match to see the tiny flame glow before it winks out. The fact that you need all four of them and that they cost 2 AP each in order to obtain void strike (arguably the most useful thing in the henshin tree) is a very serious design flaw. These abilities could easily be replaced with something more useful, say, for example, more ki abilities similar to ki bolt or incinerating wave; weak as said abilities are, they'd be infinitely more useful than the elemental words.

- Ki bolt and incinerating wave: decent damage in heroics and adds the only halfway useable fire/force spell damage in the entire tree. In epics these are a drop in the bucket; you'd most likely deal more damage with one or two auto-attacks than by the time you cast these abilities. While we're on the subject, the fire combo finisher acts just the same; weak damage and very low DC. Oh, and all of these require reflex saves for half damage; sorry henshin mystic, targets that have evasion are going to laugh at you. A lot.

- The AP costs of the henshin tree are EXTREMELY costly; I'd hazard a guess that it's the most expensive tree in the game, I could be wrong, but I wouldn't be far off the mark. Excluding the core abilities, everything in the tree costs 2 AP except two enhancements: negotiator (a next-to-useless fluff buff that exists only for thematic reasons) and contemplation (something I would consider a must-have option for most 12+ monk builds and one of the very few highlights of the tree). Similar abilities in other trees often cost less and give you more bang for you buck.

- Balance in dawn abilities are not bad at all, the exception being that Every Light Casts A Shadow also gives negative levels to party members, giving you the task of constantly seeing if they have death ward on them. For a tier 5 ability to have this kind of a glaring bug for so long is silly, and if it is intended to do this, it's just a very trivial way of balancing a very under-powered tree.

- Lighting the Candle is a decent toggle, if it wasn't for the penalty to ki generation. Other trees, like the assassin, warchanter, and the drow racial tree, have a similar ability, but no penalty whatsoever. Once again, this is a way of balancing a very under-powered tree. You would think you would want to go into the fire stance to make up for the ki generation penalty, which unfortunately gives you a penalty to wisdom, henshin's most important stat. There are so many hidden design flaws in this tree.

- Quick Strike: same exact ability as the rogue acrobat tree, except it has a 20 second cooldown compared to the acrobat's 18/15/12 sec cooldown. Why? Balancing an already under-powered tree.

- There are no +DC items for monks: you can't use spell focus feats/items and tactics items/feats do nothing for henshin ki abilities. The +3 bonus from the henshin tree itself...the developers might as well come to your door and p*ss on your foot for all the good it does. Even a pure monk dumping every stat but wisdom just doesn't have the necessary DC's for most content that any first life, inexperienced caster might obtain automatically. You can rely only on wisdom, which brings me to the last point:

- Henshin mystic suffers from paladin-syndrome: they rely on too many different stats. Henshin mystics are torn between quarterstaff damage or ki DC's, you can't have both at a high level, forcing you to focus more on strength or wisdom. Unfortunately, focusing on wisdom is a dead end because you'll never reach 'reliable' DC's needed for higher EH content and the vast majority of EE content and focusing on strength just makes you a rogue acrobat with no trap skills, weaker staff damage, and more costlier attacks. You would be better off multiclassing rogue to gain access to the acrobat tree in the latter case, which would further weaken what already weak ki abilities you have by taking away monk levels.

TL/DR
Read the above, you're a shining example of the world's current educational system.

Fascinating personal insults there. Have you born this testy or did you train several past lives to get this experienced?

I'm probably twice as old as you, so please take your snide argument on who's got the longest brain stem elsewhere. I'm talking about the game and my experiences with it, not my theories about the class. You can take it or leave it, but you needn't get personal.

Mystics don't need that high spell power when they can continually blast ki since they regenerate it so fast. Training all the passive options make my ki bar fill to near-max.

Mystics aren't spell casters and don't need to be. They do fine with weapon damage, superior in fact with high criticals with staves. They are weaker in defense than I'd like but, that's baseball. I don't complain about the game rules. I find a way to beat the game despite them.

[HastyPudding]

Fascinating personal insults there. Have you born this testy or did you train several past lives to get this experienced?

I'm probably twice as old as you, so please take your snide argument on who's got the longest brain stem elsewhere. I'm talking about the game and my experiences with it, not my theories about the class. You can take it or leave it, but you needn't get personal.

Mystics don't need that high spell power when they can continually blast ki since they regenerate it so fast. Training all the passive options make my ki bar fill to near-max.

Mystics aren't spell casters and don't need to be. They do fine with weapon damage, superior in fact with high criticals with staves. They are weaker in defense than I'd like but, that's baseball. I don't complain about the game rules. I find a way to beat the game despite them.

1. I have 3 past lives as a badger and 2 as a wild boar.

2. Age means nothing. The fact that you even mention it means you think it matters. I've met twelve-year-old children with more wisdom and common sense than a senior citizen, at times. It wasn't a personal attack on you, at any rate, merely your methods of explaining a severely weak enhancement tree as if it were perfectly viable.

3. All the ki spamming in the world won't give henshin the power it requires to be viable, especially considering the DC's of finishing moves. If henshin is a quarterstaff damage tree, then it needs to be equal in power to the thief acrobat, but it's not, and is by no means superior in criticals to acrobats. Acrobat gets several passives that tie directly into the theme and usage of the tree, expanding on it and enhancing it; henshin gets the same but their theme and usage is flawed in terms of gameplay and mechanics. A wisdom-to-attack/damage mod for quarterstaves would fix half the problems in the tree, not to mention it would expand on the multiclass options with divine classes if you like that sort of thing.

4. I never said henshin were spellcasters; in fact, I stated the exact opposite. But, henshin mystics don't have the necessary utility and feat/item resources to back up casting side of their tree. On the whole, the tree is flawed.