Give players concentration checks on normal actions..

[janave]

..such as pulling a lever, opening a door, activating a rune, and so on.

It was always kind of silly to break action from taking 1 point of damage,
when you have 1000+ hitpoints, an epic warrior gets distracted from a bug bite?
not cool.

[EllisDee37]

/signed

[FuzzyDuck81]

O ye gods yes please.. offering of blood & chains of flame are particularly annoying to try & solo thanks to that issue, when you've got archers pinging away at you constantly.

[Gauthaag]

/signed


and thanks, was thinkin about moving it to separate thread

[Qhualor]

I really hope the devs don't take this thread or suggestion seriously.

[Tinco]

Conceptually, I'm fine with the suggestion. Gameplay-wise, I'm not.

Doors and Levers are design tools to bring a dynamic to dungeon-clearing. You either have to be lucky or smart to use them while there are monsters in your vicinity. Introducing a game mechanic that lowers the skill needed for zerging properly is not the right way imo. A quest needs break points, fight points, in short - simple pacing infrastructure, which your suggestion would hamper.

[General_Gronker]

A quest needs break points, fight points, in short - simple pacing infrastructure, which your suggestion would hamper.

No, you're wrong. A quest needs an entrance, and a goal. It does not need a pacing mechanism, because it's not a story. It's a game quest, a home invasion and robbery. If we were writing a book, sure, a dramatic scene where the team has to fend off enemies while someone has to hack the door might work (but tends to be lazy writing) might be appropriate. In the game? With the crappy design of the bad guys? No. You're simply wrong.

[redoubt]

..such as pulling a lever, opening a door, activating a rune, and so on.

It was always kind of silly to break action from taking 1 point of damage,
when you have 1000+ hitpoints, an epic warrior gets distracted from a bug bite?
not cool.

I agree that getting interrupted by a gnat is silly. However, concentration skill and/or a check won't fix it.

There is a reason that almost all casters take quicken. The concentration skill is just not enough when you get past the low single digits in level.

[Gauthaag]

I agree that getting interrupted by a gnat is silly. However, concentration skill and/or a check won't fix it.

There is a reason that almost all casters take quicken. The concentration skill is just not enough when you get past the low single digits in level.

really? the dc for concentration check for such case is 10+damage taken in round.

and situation like wizard able to open the gate into nine hell while being unable to open door into next room, because of scratching wound is absurd

[Gauthaag]

Conceptually, I'm fine with the suggestion. Gameplay-wise, I'm not.

Doors and Levers are design tools to bring a dynamic to dungeon-clearing. You either have to be lucky or smart to use them while there are monsters in your vicinity. Introducing a game mechanic that lowers the skill needed for zerging properly is not the right way imo. A quest needs break points, fight points, in short - simple pacing infrastructure, which your suggestion would hamper.

u still get your break points as levers and doors still have timers - so it takes time u need spend operate them, while u can také no other action.

and its not so hidden secret that operating levers, opening doors and such while in middle of jump highly increase your chance of success. so actually its just substituting metagame mechanism with systém one

[slarden]

/signed, although you can just hop on top of some levers to pull it and you will almost never get hit.

Still, when zerging this slows me down more than anything. Concentration checks would be great.

[Tinco]

because it's not a story.

That's where I disagree. It's a story, with an according atmosphere and a narrative. Actually, imo that's a point DDO often does well, conveying the narrative of the quest.


and its not so hidden secret that operating levers, opening doors and such while in middle of jump highly increase your chance of success. so actually its just substituting metagame mechanism with systém one

I'm well aware, I like zerging, too. But that falls within the skill-toolbox of zerging, which is very meta-gamey by nature. I think it rather should stay that way and not water down the aspect of a quest "as an adventure".

[dunklezhan]

A quest in an MMO not based on DnD needs an entrance, and a goal. It does not need a pacing mechanism, because it's not a story. .

There you go. Fixed that for you, cos your keyboard obviously stopped working for a minute there. There was a load of stuff you couldn't possibly have meant, and a whole qualifying bit missing. I'd get that keyboard connection looked at if I were you.

Less sarcastically - you really think that? I mean, with that approach you may as well just have every dungeon open straight into the end fight and be done.

[Paleus]

Less sarcastically - you really think that? I mean, with that approach you may as well just have every dungeon open straight into the end fight and be done.

What, now you're asking us to have an end-fight as well? That's almost like a climax in a story's pacing, get that storytelling out of this game. We're trying to reach a point where game mechanics allow the use of auto-run and auto-attack so I can get snacks and not have that take away from my zerging.

[Eth]

There is a reason that almost all casters take quicken.

I honestly take it beause of the casting time reduction.
That it makes casting not interruptable is a nice bonus, but not the main reason.

[Hendrik]

..such as pulling a lever, opening a door, activating a rune, and so on.

It was always kind of silly to break action from taking 1 point of damage,
when you have 1000+ hitpoints, an epic warrior gets distracted from a bug bite?
not cool.

Again, not a bad idea.

Add in from the other thread with same suggestion, all induction bars can be disrupted too.

So, all disruptable actions;

Search, DD, OL, opening a door, pulling a lever, hitting a rune, and swapping armor. Could go either way with armor swapping.

To be consistent and prevent confusion all interruptible actions that do NOT have induction bars would need them. That would be OL, DD, opening a door, pulling lever, using a rune, think thats all of them.

So, as of today, how many door, levers, and rune do we have in game total?

All of them would need induction bars added however they do it. All of them from Korthos to MoD.

How do they add induction bars to all of that?

Batch process or one by one like ladders?

Add induction bars to skills that do not have them that now need them.

OL, DD.

Whew! Anyone else starting to think that is a lot of work just because a solo Epic warrior can't open a door due to an arrow hit? Wouldn't it just be easier to kill that archer?


So, they do this change, then what? What is that solo epic warrior going to do when he can't open that door when it is not that archer? When damage is more then Concentration without any investment?

What should the target Concentration be for that solo epic warrior to open doors and to only fail half the time when it is not that archer? 40? 50? 60? More when concentration checks over 100 are fails?



Again, that seems like a whole lot of work just because that solo epic warrior cant/wont kill that one archer.

[Gauthaag]

hmm, how many doors without status bar do we have? as i remind its just couple breakable ones - otherwise they have Opening... bar themselves or the mechanism (lever, valve opening them have it).

searching, disabling and lockpicking have bars already.


and yeah its ton of work as mechanism of interrupting those actions is done - so its just adding another condition (step) between check if damage was taken and result interrupted

thanks for insight

[Splunge]

I like it the way it is with one exception. I hate when I've cleared the room and can't pull a lever or open a door because I got hit with bleed or some other DOT. It's even worse when I finish the quest and have to wait until the DOT clears to open the end chest.

[Dreppo]

Makes total sense to do this. It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. If doing this for doors and levers would aid zerging too much, at least do it for skills (search, disable device, open lock) to help out the trappers.

[Hendrik]

hmm, how many doors without status bar do we have? as i remind its just couple breakable ones - otherwise they have Opening... bar themselves or the mechanism (lever, valve opening them have it).

searching, disabling and lockpicking have bars already.


and yeah its ton of work as mechanism of interrupting those actions is done - so its just adding another condition (step) between check if damage was taken and result interrupted

thanks for insight

Most have animation, not induction bars and those without would need them now.

We need to be consistent to prevent confusion so those animations would need matching induction bars.

So for opening a door you would have the animation and the matching induction bar, just like Search.

I would dare bet the DEVs are shuddering at such changes.

Beginning to realize the sheer magnitude of the work to be done here? Imagine if they have to go through and add induction bars, manually, to each and every door, lever, switch and rune in the entire game?!?

Adding induction bars to match existing animations too.



Now, I mean no disrespect, but if a solo epic level character cannot open a door due to an Archer, kill the Archer. Don't shift a majority of the skill check "burden" to two classes, the ROG and Arty since they would be effected the most as primary skills would be impacted the most for them.

Yea, it is a pain to be disrupted while opening a door. IMO, this is not the right way to "fix' that pain as there are many ways to do that now without such an overwhelming changes.

[Hendrik]

I like it the way it is with one exception. I hate when I've cleared the room and can't pull a lever or open a door because I got hit with bleed or some other DOT. It's even worse when I finish the quest and have to wait until the DOT clears to open the end chest.

You can mitigate that in many cases.

Blocking prevents most special attacks.

Can also shield block for the party member opening the door. Shield block for your hireling.



Your going to be failing when you reach levels where damage taken will be more then your concentration. Inflated HD will prevent you from making those checks. Early levels this would help, later levels, not so much.

How are you going to be able to make those checks when your getting beat on for 100+ damage a hit with a +20 item you have to swap in, +3 to +5 from your CON, +d20?

[Paleus]

Now, I mean no disrespect, but if a solo epic level character cannot open a door due to an Archer, kill the Archer. Don't shift a majority of the skill check "burden" to two classes, the ROG and Arty since they would be effected the most as primary skills would be impacted the most for them.

Yea, it is a pain to be disrupted while opening a door. IMO, this is not the right way to "fix' that pain as there are many ways to do that now without such an overwhelming changes.

^Seconded. There are often many suggestions that boil down to "please devote an inordinate amount of resources so that I do not have to make marginal adjustments to my gameplay style." Usually these requests implicitly assume such changes would be trivial to make, which given our experience with updates should indicate any time Turbine changes code its a crapshoot what unintended consequence they'll hit upon in the spaghetti code.

Maybe when developing a game in the beginning you could have this type of discussion on whether 1 pt of damage should stop someone from opening a door, and the impact on quest narrative structure, etc. But at this point in the game's life-cycle, it would be a waste of developer resources Turbine probably doesn't have to address something that the player can already address by killing the dang archer.

Oh, and while we're at it, why not instead ask why an epic archer is only hitting you for 1 pt of damage anyway. Seems like the other way to view the problem is that epic archers are doing too little damage to players.

[janave]

Makes total sense to do this. It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. If doing this for doors and levers would aid zerging too much, at least do it for skills (search, disable device, open lock) to help out the trappers.

For Rogues, the biggest thing id like to see is - not breaking stealth- when doing your job. But im okay having to make extra skill checks for that too :)

[Gauthaag]

^Seconded. There are often many suggestions that boil down to "please devote an inordinate amount of resources so that I do not have to make marginal adjustments to my gameplay style." Usually these requests implicitly assume such changes would be trivial to make, which given our experience with updates should indicate any time Turbine changes code its a crapshoot what unintended consequence they'll hit upon in the spaghetti code.

Maybe when developing a game in the beginning you could have this type of discussion on whether 1 pt of damage should stop someone from opening a door, and the impact on quest narrative structure, etc. But at this point in the game's life-cycle, it would be a waste of developer resources Turbine probably doesn't have to address something that the player can already address by killing the dang archer.

Oh, and while we're at it, why not instead ask why an epic archer is only hitting you for 1 pt of damage anyway. Seems like the other way to view the problem is that epic archers are doing too little damage to players.

fully understand your n Hendrik objection - actually its first objection that has imho real sense. if its really that way that there are doors defined separately according to having status bar or not (i m still not believing this fact, but have no proof i m right:) ) or whatever, that could mean too much effort for not so much gain, there such change could be rejected as unefficient waste of resources. sure. thats why i post it as suggestion. tho i believe nor me or u or hendrik is competent enough to say how hard it be to implement this.

and well - 1 pt was value set so low just to point out, how absurd it is. what if u také into consideration we re speaking about heavy armored fighter with 150 PRR and dr 30/epic - then u can easily get to such low numbers. same could be said about dots - one can have high enough resists and absorb so he is hit just for couple remaining points.

and there are places where its hard to kill such mobs (like chains of flame or offering of blood)

i think that at this point it would be nice to get qualified info about how hard it could be to implement this from dev - or if its truly against some higher design principle

[Gauthaag]

For Rogues, the biggest thing id like to see is - not breaking stealth- when doing your job. But im okay having to make extra skill checks for that too :)

i dont think its breaking stealth - at least disarming traps or unlocking doesnot break invisibility

[Ausdoerrt]

No, you're wrong. A quest needs an entrance, and a goal. It does not need a pacing mechanism, because it's not a story.

*scratches head*

The amount of narrative and lore in every quest chain/arc (*ahem*, story) suggests otherwise.

[Hendrik]

fully understand your n Hendrik objection - actually its first objection that has imho real sense. if its really that way that there are doors defined separately according to having status bar or not (i m still not believing this fact, but have no proof i m right:) ) or whatever, that could mean too much effort for not so much gain, there such change could be rejected as unefficient waste of resources. sure. thats why i post it as suggestion. tho i believe nor me or u or hendrik is competent enough to say how hard it be to implement this.

and well - 1 pt was value set so low just to point out, how absurd it is. what if u také into consideration we re speaking about heavy armored fighter with 150 PRR and dr 30/epic - then u can easily get to such low numbers. same could be said about dots - one can have high enough resists and absorb so he is hit just for couple remaining points.

and there are places where its hard to kill such mobs (like chains of flame or offering of blood)

i think that at this point it would be nice to get qualified info about how hard it could be to implement this from dev - or if its truly against some higher design principle

I base my feedback from 8+years on ML and what I learned there.

Yes, it is a lot of work to make induction bars while solo, in quests designed for 4 or more, to be affected by Concentration checks.

Yes, there are places where it might be hard to get to a MOB, but you can. There are many existing ways, some involve other humans - some not, to work around this with existing mechanics we all use, or at least used to use.

When I solo, and I do from time to time, and cannot open a door from being hit, I simply kill what is hitting me and then open the door. I might stun them, mez them, or use any number of things at my disposal to render them a non-issue. If I have a DOT or special attack effect on me that I missed blocking, those extra seconds are not going to kill me.

There IS benefit to this idea! I just personally think there is not enough benefit, yet?, to make the time and expense worth it.

Sometimes we need to think like like the bean counters that direct many decisions. Is the time, effort and expense worth making the changes to the game as a whole?

While a good idea, just do not think we have reached that tipping point.

Not to mention what hints the PC (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454362-Inaugural-Player-Council-Redux-What-did-they-do?highlight=player+council+2014) gave us about some skill re-work to Listen that was rejected makes me worried about any skill changes.

Wish we knew what they had in mind...

[Gauthaag]

I base my feedback from 8+years on ML and what I learned there.

Yes, it is a lot of work to make induction bars while solo, in quests designed for 4 or more, to be affected by Concentration checks.

Yes, there are places where it might be hard to get to a MOB, but you can. There are many existing ways, some involve other humans - some not, to work around this with existing mechanics we all use, or at least used to use.



i still find the fact (well, if its fact - still not convinced) - that status bar and corresponding interrupt check is bound to each specific door, lever and such and not to character action or animation, or not making presence of status bar attribute of each door or controller type asset, ridiculous and pretty iconsistent. And i base this statement upon more than 10 years of experience in game industry. And yeah i know doors in DDO can be mushrooms and vice versa

like i said above, i d be pleased to get qualified answer. if not ...well happens. its not revolutionary change i cant live without. i just thought it would be fine change in spirit of original game improvilg quality of life in game.


tho i believe this thread was made to learn if people would like such change or not.

[Hendrik]

i still find the fact (well, if its fact - still not convinced) - that status bar and corresponding interrupt check is bound to each specific door, lever and such and not to character action or animation, or not making presence of status bar attribute of each door or controller type asset, ridiculous and pretty iconsistent. And i base this statement upon more than 10 years of experience in game industry. And yeah i know doors in DDO can be mushrooms and vice versa

like i said above, i d be pleased to get qualified answer. if not ...well happens. its not revolutionary change i cant live without. i just thought it would be fine change in spirit of original game improvilg quality of life in game.


tho i believe this thread was made to learn if people would like such change or not.

The spirit of the game is to group with other humans all around a table to take on the adventure at hand, that was lost long ago.

Quality of life changes should be centered around getting people to group together and far less solo emphasis.

Not to force Concentration checks on anyone that want to open a door while being hit but to kill the MOB hitting you.

[bruener]

..such as pulling a lever, opening a door, activating a rune, and so on.

It was always kind of silly to break action from taking 1 point of damage,
when you have 1000+ hitpoints, an epic warrior gets distracted from a bug bite?
not cool.


nah its fine the way it is.

[Paleus]

fulland well - 1 pt was value set so low just to point out, how absurd it is. what if u také into consideration we re speaking about heavy armored fighter with 150 PRR and dr 30/epic - then u can easily get to such low numbers. same could be said about dots - one can have high enough resists and absorb so he is hit just for couple remaining points.

I fully understand the way in which layered defenses can reduce the damage a player takes in the game. The original request of the thread posed boils down to adjusting a game mechanic (opening doors) because another combination of game mechanics (mob damage output vs player damage mitigation) is set in such a way that an epic mob going against an epic player that is paying it no attention to the mob is only able to produce negligible damage. Rather than asking how we can make that negligible damage even more pointless, could we expect to also ask what can be done to make that damage no longer pointless.

[EllisDee37]

So, as of today, how many door, levers, and rune do we have in game total?

All of them would need induction bars added however they do it. All of them from Korthos to MoD. I would be shocked to find out that each door's induction bar is manually coded for every door. It's far more likely that there's a global "open door induction bar" routine that all doors share.

My evidence for this belief is that the induction bar for search can't be manually coded for each individual use, and therefore must be a global routine.

[Chai]

i still find the fact (well, if its fact - still not convinced) - that status bar and corresponding interrupt check is bound to each specific door, lever and such and not to character action or animation, or not making presence of status bar attribute of each door or controller type asset, ridiculous and pretty iconsistent. And i base this statement upon more than 10 years of experience in game industry. And yeah i know doors in DDO can be mushrooms and vice versa

like i said above, i d be pleased to get qualified answer. if not ...well happens. its not revolutionary change i cant live without. i just thought it would be fine change in spirit of original game improvilg quality of life in game.


tho i believe this thread was made to learn if people would like such change or not.

There are levers in this game which take longer to throw than other levers with the exact same look.

[Chai]

I would be shocked to find out that each door's induction bar is manually coded for every door. It's far more likely that there's a global "open door induction bar" routine that all doors share.

My evidence for this belief is that the induction bar for search can't be manually coded for each individual use, and therefore must be a global routine.

There are doors which take longer to open than others so. Compare the ones where the lock bolts move aside before it opens to doors that just swing open. Also circular doors with lock mechanism -vs- circular door with lever mechanism.

The global routines are the character animations. The door opening animation time is not always the same, even if the character animation is.

[Qhualor]

I would be shocked to find out that each door's induction bar is manually coded for every door. It's far more likely that there's a global "open door induction bar" routine that all doors share.

My evidence for this belief is that the induction bar for search can't be manually coded for each individual use, and therefore must be a global routine.

theres no bar for auto detect like with True Seeing or Nothing is Hidden from Shadar-kai when you would have to normally perform the search.

[Gauthaag]

theres no bar for auto detect like with True Seeing or Nothing is Hidden from Shadar-kai when you would have to normally perform the search.

and thus? missing the point, but u re right, there is not ...but its really irrelevant. theres not status bar for opening locks via knock spell neither. what does it means in this case? nothing

[Gauthaag]

There are doors which take longer to open than others so. Compare the ones where the lock bolts move aside before it opens to doors that just swing open. Also circular doors with lock mechanism -vs- circular door with lever mechanism.

The global routines are the character animations. The door opening animation time is not always the same, even if the character animation is.

sorry i should use door TYPE and controller TYPE asset. and u re right (can easily be measured in Made to Order quest. u can also run thru opened door sooner then timer of door passes, what actually hampers soloer, cause when trying doing while opening door - in most cases its taken as deliberately interrupted action. whatever, its irrelevant, just interesting fact about consistency

[Gauthaag]

There are levers in this game which take longer to throw than other levers with the exact same look.

yep, thus very likely lenght of timer can be set manually per lever. tho doesnot prove the lever sharing look is actually same type as other levers with same look.

[bartharok]

Another way might be to have the toon make a con check or a fort/will save (opposed) to perform any SIMPLE action when taking damage.

[Gauthaag]

The spirit of the game is to ALLOW people to group with other humans all around a table to take on the adventure at hand. and it was not lost - i still have it. if someone lost it, he should find it. Game cant solve unability to make friends.

It s just your opinion that quality of life changes should be centered around getting people to group together and far less solo emphasis. in mine quality of life changes should center around user friendliness and performance isues. its pretty subjective

and the spirit of the game is not definitely based on forcing anyone doing the actions the one and only right(or intended) way - actually its diversity what attracts people to this game, not unifying.

[Gauthaag]

and just to add, why dont we just take away the concentration skill? if caster wants to cast spell he should eliminate all opposing force which could interrupt him beforehand...makes sense , right?

[Ancient]

Again, that seems like a whole lot of work just because that solo epic warrior cant/wont kill that one archer.

The request is because the solo epic warrior can't/won't kill that one archer.

The work you describe would all be due to lousy coding. Its an old game, so I'll give them a pass if it really is that bad because the developer at fault may be long gone...

But there should be some centralized coding for most of your long list. Of course, with agile... all bets on code reuse go out the window.

[Faltout]

The spirit of the game is to group with other humans all around a table to take on the adventure at hand, that was lost long ago.

Quality of life changes should be centered around getting people to group together and far less solo emphasis.

Not to force Concentration checks on anyone that want to open a door while being hit but to kill the MOB hitting you.
OK! Then add it only to Disable Device and Search checks! Or are those skills for soloing too??? The LENGTHS you'll go to prove that this change is originating from soloers and thus is bad. Unbelievable.

Anyway, your concern about developer time is totally valid. This is just a suggestion and we're even mentioning it's a low priority quality of life change. The claim you make that most doors don't have opening bars is invalid. Start pointing out doors.

[Gauthaag]

OK! Then add it only to Disable Device and Search checks! Or are those skills for soloing too??? The LENGTHS you'll go to prove that this change is originating from soloers and thus is bad. Unbelievable.

Anyway, your concern about developer time is totally valid. This is just a suggestion and we're even mentioning it's a low priority quality of life change. The claim you make that most doors don't have opening bars is invalid. Start pointing out doors.

actually, most doors dont - but just because most doors have opening mechanism (imho with status bar). but well, that doesnot make sense of what u said

[SirValentine]

..such as pulling a lever, opening a door, activating a rune, and so on.

It was always kind of silly to break action from taking 1 point of damage,
when you have 1000+ hitpoints, an epic warrior gets distracted from a bug bite?
not cool.

/signed

It's been suggested before, and is still a good idea.

It's also perfectly in line with the p&p rules, which don't just use it for spell-casting, but "whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention".

[Qhualor]

OK! Then add it only to Disable Device and Search checks! Or are those skills for soloing too??? The LENGTHS you'll go to prove that this change is originating from soloers and thus is bad. Unbelievable.

Anyway, your concern about developer time is totally valid. This is just a suggestion and we're even mentioning it's a low priority quality of life change. The claim you make that most doors don't have opening bars is invalid. Start pointing out doors.

I would be willing to further discuss this with trapping if it weren't for the fact you can prevent disruption by lots of sources of damage mitigation or having something to block what is trying to disrupt you from performing those actions. As it is right now, there's only a handful of DOTs that reasonalbly bypass your damage mitigation no matter how much you invest.

Also with auto detect there would be no concentration skill check if you have the enhancement or equip True Seeing. There is no chance of being disrupted. If we were to include full concentration with other things like doors, levers, switching armor or recalling from a quest than anything that is considered an action would require a skill check, not just ones with animation and bars. Than you would also have to consider rolling 1s for auto fail and DCs for every action.

I know. Sounds pretty crazy, but that's what I think about this suggestion.

[mna]

I would be willing to further discuss this with trapping if it weren't for the fact you can prevent disruption by lots of sources of damage mitigation or having something to block what is trying to disrupt you from performing those actions. As it is right now, there's only a handful of DOTs that reasonalbly bypass your damage mitigation no matter how much you invest.

...right. What level of play are we talking about? This thing is a problem by level 4 (well, Swiped Signet on Normal already at level 3, maybe) - and cannot assume that everyone has old-type elemental resist guild buffs...


Also with auto detect there would be no concentration skill check if you have the enhancement or equip True Seeing. There is no chance of being disrupted. If we were to include full concentration with other things like doors, levers, switching armor or recalling from a quest than anything that is considered an action would require a skill check, not just ones with animation and bars. Than you would also have to consider rolling 1s for auto fail and DCs for every action.

I know. Sounds pretty crazy, but that's what I think about this suggestion.

Did I get this right? You'd push True Seeing up to also show trap boxes regardless of DC? Whee, cleric trappers suddenly become popular.

That aside, actually, it does feel rather silly to be interrupted from pulling a simple no-requirements lever or switch due to taking just a little damage, since that kind of task should NOT require full concentration. But I should expect that assuming such minimally simple tasks would be DC ~-2 to -7 checks should work (only-fail-on-1 for everyone not debuffed, to even if fairly severely debuffed, I think?).

Take 10 unless disturbed, too.


The advantage of computerized RPGs was supposed to be that the computer rolls the dice for you, and therefore it shouldn't appreciably slow down your gameplay. Right? So more comprehensive skill-check system than with tabletop paper RPGs should be viable.

The question then becomes, I'd expect there should be a reason why this was not done so already in 2006?

[Faltout]

I would be willing to further discuss this with trapping if it weren't for the fact you can prevent disruption by lots of sources of damage mitigation or having something to block what is trying to disrupt you from performing those actions. As it is right now, there's only a handful of DOTs that reasonalbly bypass your damage mitigation no matter how much you invest.

When the trap box is on the other side of the trap, then you need to go there without the rest of the party and disarm it. Also, you can't sneak there because sneaking would get you hit by the trap as you move slower. So when you reach the other side of the trap, a couple of mobs are there waiting for you. You see them, activate uncanny dodge and start disabling. Midway through, their archer (and archers generally deal much less damage than the melee) has unloaded about 4 arrows at you, and 1 of them hit you for 5 damage. You would restart the disabling, but their fighter has already reached you and is about to perform stunning blows, etc. So what you do is fall back through the trap and die, or the party members come forward through the trap and die (or not, proving the trap a non-worthy challenge).

I guess you've never seen rogues disabling traps though. Or even more uncommon: Party members waiting on the other side of the trap! This is preposterous. Of course what you suggest is the whole party 10 feet ahead of the rogue blasting through monsters so the rogue can take his time to disarm the traps for the bonus... yay, rogue having fun... NOT.

[Chilldude]

O ye gods yes please.. offering of blood & chains of flame are particularly annoying to try & solo thanks to that issue, when you've got archers pinging away at you constantly.

Yes, I would agree, but you haven't quite taken it far enough in my opinion. Why stop at allowing people to open doors while being pummeled by 25 mobs, thereby skipping the purpose of the door in the first place? I propose they remove doors from the game altogether.

Why stop there, why put the end boss so far from the start? Move the end boss to the first room.

[Chilldude]

When the trap box is on the other side of the trap, then you need to go there without the rest of the party and disarm it. Also, you can't sneak there because sneaking would get you hit by the trap as you move slower....

If you are a rogue who prides himself in trapping, then I would hope that you are able to sneak through a trap without getting hit. If you can't sneak through a trap to disable it, that's a problem you need to work on.

[Hendrik]

If you are a rogue who prides himself in trapping, then I would hope that you are able to sneak through a trap without getting hit. If you can't sneak through a trap to disable it, that's a problem you need to work on.

I have not seen a party wait for someone to disable a trap for years.

Might see it with new content, but usually got someone in party that ran it to death on Llama ruining the new experience with spoilers.

[Qhualor]

When the trap box is on the other side of the trap, then you need to go there without the rest of the party and disarm it. Also, you can't sneak there because sneaking would get you hit by the trap as you move slower. So when you reach the other side of the trap, a couple of mobs are there waiting for you. You see them, activate uncanny dodge and start disabling. Midway through, their archer (and archers generally deal much less damage than the melee) has unloaded about 4 arrows at you, and 1 of them hit you for 5 damage. You would restart the disabling, but their fighter has already reached you and is about to perform stunning blows, etc. So what you do is fall back through the trap and die, or the party members come forward through the trap and die (or not, proving the trap a non-worthy challenge).

I guess you've never seen rogues disabling traps though. Or even more uncommon: Party members waiting on the other side of the trap! This is preposterous. Of course what you suggest is the whole party 10 feet ahead of the rogue blasting through monsters so the rogue can take his time to disarm the traps for the bonus... yay, rogue having fun... NOT.

if you are a rogue, I would assume you have evasion, umd for blur, maybe some gear and also using sneak. there is an enhancements that increases sneak speed and can haste yourself. you can also use someone else to attract the attention of mobs while you disarm the trap. there are certain traps that can still hit you, like dart traps, but blur gives you a chance to miss or you could try timing the trap. in general though, if you are taking a lot of damage from traps than might want to look into improving your reflex.

I question how you perceive rogue abilities and how you build them.

[Qhualor]

I have not seen a party wait for someone to disable a trap for years.

Might see it with new content, but usually got someone in party that ran it to death on Llama ruining the new experience with spoilers.

/raises hand I wait almost all the time :)

[Gauthaag]

I would be willing to further discuss this with trapping if it weren't for the fact you can prevent disruption by lots of sources of damage mitigation or having something to block what is trying to disrupt you from performing those actions. As it is right now, there's only a handful of DOTs that reasonalbly bypass your damage mitigation no matter how much you invest.

Also with auto detect there would be no concentration skill check if you have the enhancement or equip True Seeing. There is no chance of being disrupted. If we were to include full concentration with other things like doors, levers, switching armor or recalling from a quest than anything that is considered an action would require a skill check, not just ones with animation and bars. Than you would also have to consider rolling 1s for auto fail and DCs for every action.

I know. Sounds pretty crazy, but that's what I think about this suggestion.

oh, i wouldnt even hope u ll come to almost same conclusion as was my original intent.

sure there are ways to mitigate damage, be it via soaking some dmg by DR, absorbing portion via PRR or preventing even hitting with different spells or abilities. but primary purpose of those is imho lower received damage. it has its own purpose.

purpose of expanding using concentration checks is preventing interruption of actions. sure its connected via dc based on damage received.

i agree also about auto detection and true seeing (for detecting secret doors ofc as it doesnot autodetect traps) - it fully makes sense.
Otherwise i d still stick to actions with progress bars - believing those actions have progress bars to represent it as action which are time consuming and taking some effort (as cant do anything else while executing them, ie u re remaining focused on it whole time). it sure makes sense for changing armor as well for other "barred" actions - reading tomes, eating hams (well, that one is bit crazy).

i wouldnt expand it to any other actions from couple reasons : its hard to say what should be taken as action, its even harder to say if such actions have anything like interruption check like "barred" actions, not mentioning some of them are done like real actions.

and yeah i was also considering recalling (obssessed w progress bars) - but havent dare to suggest as its pure game mechanism. its leaving the instance (still dont get why its timed, most of us remember period when actions were autocompleted due to bug - and with respect to recalling, it was cool). and i worry that for characters with good enough concentration applying it to recalling, would make it poor man dimension door:)

concerning DCs - why to move from PnP standart DC=10+ damage received? and good for us, there is no autofail on roll of 1 on skill checks, only critical failure if your modified roll is lower than critical failure threshold.

and again, i m saying its mere suggestion covering just a nich of the game, which should be considered only in case if doing such change doesnot mean too much effort (like i said if it for example means really just one step into algorith checking interruption of action).

[Gauthaag]

I have not seen a party wait for someone to disable a trap for years.

Might see it with new content, but usually got someone in party that ran it to death on Llama ruining the new experience with spoilers.

trying derail this one?


its not problem of discussed matter - its problem of people u re running with and problem of traps being joke atm

[mna]

if you are a rogue, I would assume you have evasion, umd for blur, maybe some gear and also using sneak. there is an enhancements that increases sneak speed and can haste yourself. you can also use someone else to attract the attention of mobs while you disarm the trap. there are certain traps that can still hit you, like dart traps, but blur gives you a chance to miss or you could try timing the trap. in general though, if you are taking a lot of damage from traps than might want to look into improving your reflex.

I question how you perceive rogue abilities and how you build them.

... wait, when do you assume the rogue has blur and such? Level 4?

... right. First-lifers shouldn't play rogues at all?

[Caprice]

I would be shocked to find out that each door's induction bar is manually coded for every door. It's far more likely that there's a global "open door induction bar" routine that all doors share.
I don't expect them to be individually coded but I wouldn't be shocked. It wasn't that long ago that we had to individually bug report every portal that cleared ED counters because they were all coded differently, and I would have expected those to share code too.

[Hendrik]

/raises hand I wait almost all the time :)

Hehe

Just you and the ROG standing there?

:P

Safest place in a dungeon IS behind the ROG and next to the CLR.

[Hendrik]

I don't expect them to be individually coded but I wouldn't be shocked. It wasn't that long ago that we had to individually bug report every portal that cleared ED counters because they were all coded differently, and I would have expected those to share code too.

Kinda like ladders?

[Qhualor]

... wait, when do you assume the rogue has blur and such? Level 4?

... right. First-lifers shouldn't play rogues at all?

didn't know there was a level requirement or first lifer in the discussion. level 11 you can have a perma blur GS item, but there is also lower level items you can equip. heck, theres even dusk items out there for the 10% chance. at level 4 you are mainly relying on bluff/pull/sneak tactics if you want to bypass mobs solo without fighting.

[redoubt]

really? the dc for concentration check for such case is 10+damage taken in round.

and situation like wizard able to open the gate into nine hell while being unable to open door into next room, because of scratching wound is absurd

Maybe you misunderstand my point. I'm saying concentration is not enough to work.

When you are getting hit for hundreds of points, you will not pass the concentration check anyway.

[bartharok]

Maybe you misunderstand my point. I'm saying concentration is not enough to work.

When you are getting hit for hundreds of points, you will not pass the concentration check anyway.

When you get hit for hundreds of points of damage, you shouldnt be able to open that door anyway.

[luvirini]

Whew! Anyone else starting to think that is a lot of work just because a solo Epic warrior can't open a door due to an arrow hit? Wouldn't it just be easier to kill that archer?


No because of the stupid ranged crippling attacks and the archers running away at full speed.

[Qhualor]

No because of the stupid ranged crippling attacks and the archers running away at full speed.

the archers move than stop. use CC, trip, SB, brute dps or something.

[luvirini]

the archers move than stop. use CC, trip, SB, brute dps or something.

Except when there are multiple archers each doing those 1 hp of damage+cripple attacks.. you have to chase them all over the place at slow speed to kill them all.

[Gremmlynn]

Conceptually, I'm fine with the suggestion. Gameplay-wise, I'm not.

Doors and Levers are design tools to bring a dynamic to dungeon-clearing. You either have to be lucky or smart to use them while there are monsters in your vicinity. Introducing a game mechanic that lowers the skill needed for zerging properly is not the right way imo. A quest needs break points, fight points, in short - simple pacing infrastructure, which your suggestion would hamper.Not really as concentration checks would mostly fail unless the damage being dealt was fairly insignificant.

[Gremmlynn]

Again, not a bad idea.

Add in from the other thread with same suggestion, all induction bars can be disrupted too.

So, all disruptable actions;

Search, DD, OL, opening a door, pulling a lever, hitting a rune, and swapping armor. Could go either way with armor swapping.

To be consistent and prevent confusion all interruptible actions that do NOT have induction bars would need them. That would be OL, DD, opening a door, pulling lever, using a rune, think thats all of them.

So, as of today, how many door, levers, and rune do we have in game total?

All of them would need induction bars added however they do it. All of them from Korthos to MoD.

How do they add induction bars to all of that?

Batch process or one by one like ladders?

Add induction bars to skills that do not have them that now need them.

OL, DD.

Whew! Anyone else starting to think that is a lot of work just because a solo Epic warrior can't open a door due to an arrow hit? Wouldn't it just be easier to kill that archer?


So, they do this change, then what? What is that solo epic warrior going to do when he can't open that door when it is not that archer? When damage is more then Concentration without any investment?

What should the target Concentration be for that solo epic warrior to open doors and to only fail half the time when it is not that archer? 40? 50? 60? More when concentration checks over 100 are fails?



Again, that seems like a whole lot of work just because that solo epic warrior cant/wont kill that one archer.All those things already have them. Never noticed the bar that says "using" in it that fills with yellow as you do those actions?

If damage is more than concentration, that warrior is likely to fail. As they should IMO. If that one archer is enough to keep them from doing what they want, then killing it is an option to solve that problem, but it shouldn't be the only option.

[Qhualor]

Except when there are multiple archers each doing those 1 hp of damage+cripple attacks.. you have to chase them all over the place at slow speed to kill them all.

its really not as bad as you make it out to be or I just don't experience the hardships you do.

[Gremmlynn]

^Seconded. There are often many suggestions that boil down to "please devote an inordinate amount of resources so that I do not have to make marginal adjustments to my gameplay style." Usually these requests implicitly assume such changes would be trivial to make, which given our experience with updates should indicate any time Turbine changes code its a crapshoot what unintended consequence they'll hit upon in the spaghetti code.Ah, so we should all just stop making suggestions because they might not be feasible and the devs might screw something up if they do think it's feasible. Should we all also never leave our homes because we could get mugged, hit by a bus or struck by lightning?

The only one's who could say whether this is feasible or not would be those actually working on the code and even if it is, there is nothing wrong with giving an opinion on the subject anyway.

[Gremmlynn]

*scratches head*

The amount of narrative and lore in every quest chain/arc (*ahem*, story) suggests otherwise.Actually a quest should be a story that's being written every time it's run by the players that are running it. Nothing worse than a Dm, or a dev, that tries to force player action to fit their predetermined scrip of how they want the characters to be played.

[Gremmlynn]

The spirit of the game is to group with other humans all around a table to take on the adventure at hand, that was lost long ago.

Quality of life changes should be centered around getting people to group together and far less solo emphasis.

Not to force Concentration checks on anyone that want to open a door while being hit but to kill the MOB hitting you.The spirit of the game is for Turbine to make money by providing entertainment to players. Everything else is secondary to this.

Trying to tell them how they should be entertained is a recipe for disaster. It's just silly to think they care more how people are playing the game than how many are. The more diverse the entertainment they offer, the broader their base of potential customers will be.

[Gremmlynn]

There are doors which take longer to open than others so. Compare the ones where the lock bolts move aside before it opens to doors that just swing open. Also circular doors with lock mechanism -vs- circular door with lever mechanism.

The global routines are the character animations. The door opening animation time is not always the same, even if the character animation is.That is simply a value set in the code. Or are you saying each door is individually coded to not open if the opener is damaged? If not, then the global code that does that is all that would need an edit. Right between opener takes damage and action is interrupted the concentration check code is inserted with only failed checks resulting in the interruption.

[Gremmlynn]

Also with auto detect there would be no concentration skill check if you have the enhancement or equip True Seeing. There is no chance of being disrupted. If we were to include full concentration with other things like doors, levers, switching armor or recalling from a quest than anything that is considered an action would require a skill check, not just ones with animation and bars. Than you would also have to consider rolling 1s for auto fail and DCs for every action.Why? Is there some particle coding reason that this must be? If not, then it wouldn't have to be that way in any place but your overly orderly mind.

Also, 1's are not auto fails for skill checks, so even if their is a coding reason, simply setting the DC at zero or lower for all that would solve that problem.

[Gremmlynn]

Maybe you misunderstand my point. I'm saying concentration is not enough to work.

When you are getting hit for hundreds of points, you will not pass the concentration check anyway.I'm thinking that when you are getting hit for 100's of damage that it actually makes sense that you shouldn't be able to do those types of things. It the fact that even pathetically low amounts of damage stop our heroes in their tracks that I find silly.

[redoubt]

When you get hit for hundreds of points of damage, you shouldnt be able to open that door anyway.

At level 1 you put 4 points into concentration and have a 14 con for +2 more. So you have a concentration of 6.

The concentration check is a d20 + your skill level vs 10+ damage. 10.5 average from the d20 is close enough to the 10, so lets just call it concentration vs damage for now.

So at level 1, you can take a 6 pt hit and still do something.

At level 18 you have 23 ranks + 4 ranks + 10 (30 con) + 20 item = 57. Now I'm sure someone will post how they have an uber 100+ concentration, so lets just assume that is easy for everyone and use that number instead. 100 pt hit and you can still take an action.

Now compare a 6 pt hit at level 1 to a 100 pt hit at level 28. At level 1 you will almost never be interrupted. Very, very few hits will exceed that number. Now move to EE content above level 25 and think about how often you would succeed on a concentration hit even at 100. Not very often. The number of times the hit will be low enough to pass a concentration check at 28 is going to be about the same % as the number at level 1 that were too high. It scales poorly with the damage numbers the mobs do. This is what I was trying to say.

Now, if your argument is that you should not be able to take an action when taking xxx damage, then that is fine and there is a good chance that I'd agree. This brings me to ask how much damage should it take to stop your actions? I think a 600 hp caster who gets hit for 200pts should be interrupted. I think a 2000hp fighter getting hit for 200hp should probably grin and bear it and still open the door. Where exactly should we draw the line?

[Qhualor]

Why? Is there some particle coding reason that this must be? If not, then it wouldn't have to be that way in any place but your overly orderly mind.

Also, 1's are not auto fails for skill checks, so even if their is a coding reason, simply setting the DC at zero or lower for all that would solve that problem.

its an action just like searching or opening doors. it may be instantaneous or cant be disrupted, but an action nonetheless.

there has to be a fail somehow if you are using a skill to not disrupt your action. which also means there has to be a save against disruption. there would have to be a check for every door, every lever, every switch, every rune, recalling, switching armor, searching, any action. this would mean investment into a skill that is also a cross class skill for barb, fighter and rogue. if there is no investment and there is no fail chance, than why would we use a skill to prevent disruption while Dotted and go through the time and coding to change how concentration works and probably for doors levers, etc. when we could simply just ask the devs to allow performing actions while Dotted? I would think that would be the simplest and easiest way to go about it than to overcomplicate all this.

[bartharok]

its an action just like searching or opening doors. it may be instantaneous or cant be disrupted, but an action nonetheless.

there has to be a fail somehow if you are using a skill to not disrupt your action. which also means there has to be a save against disruption. there would have to be a check for every door, every lever, every switch, every rune, recalling, switching armor, searching, any action. this would mean investment into a skill that is also a cross class skill for barb, fighter and rogue. if there is no investment and there is no fail chance, than why would we use a skill to prevent disruption while Dotted and go through the time and coding to change how concentration works and probably for doors levers, etc. when we could simply just ask the devs to allow performing actions while Dotted? I would think that would be the simplest and easiest way to go about it than to overcomplicate all this.

I thought about the bit about allowing certain actions while dotted. The problem is that they would probably have to code every single type of Dot separately. Just allowing to make a check to avoid being interrupted might be easier to code.

[bartharok]

At level 1 you put 4 points into concentration and have a 14 con for +2 more. So you have a concentration of 6.

The concentration check is a d20 + your skill level vs 10+ damage. 10.5 average from the d20 is close enough to the 10, so lets just call it concentration vs damage for now.

So at level 1, you can take a 6 pt hit and still do something.

At level 18 you have 23 ranks + 4 ranks + 10 (30 con) + 20 item = 57. Now I'm sure someone will post how they have an uber 100+ concentration, so lets just assume that is easy for everyone and use that number instead. 100 pt hit and you can still take an action.

Now compare a 6 pt hit at level 1 to a 100 pt hit at level 28. At level 1 you will almost never be interrupted. Very, very few hits will exceed that number. Now move to EE content above level 25 and think about how often you would succeed on a concentration hit even at 100. Not very often. The number of times the hit will be low enough to pass a concentration check at 28 is going to be about the same % as the number at level 1 that were too high. It scales poorly with the damage numbers the mobs do. This is what I was trying to say.

Now, if your argument is that you should not be able to take an action when taking xxx damage, then that is fine and there is a good chance that I'd agree. This brings me to ask how much damage should it take to stop your actions? I think a 600 hp caster who gets hit for 200pts should be interrupted. I think a 2000hp fighter getting hit for 200hp should probably grin and bear it and still open the door. Where exactly should we draw the line?

The hp damage is not just about getting hit for x%, its also a matter of force. And that force would be likely to knock you away from the handle or whatever. So a high enough amount of damage (it does not matter if you can take it) would keep you from doing anything interruptable.

[Gremmlynn]

its an action just like searching or opening doors. it may be instantaneous or cant be disrupted, but an action nonetheless.

there has to be a fail somehow if you are using a skill to not disrupt your action. which also means there has to be a save against disruption. there would have to be a check for every door, every lever, every switch, every rune, recalling, switching armor, searching, any action. this would mean investment into a skill that is also a cross class skill for barb, fighter and rogue. if there is no investment and there is no fail chance, than why would we use a skill to prevent disruption while Dotted and go through the time and coding to change how concentration works and probably for doors levers, etc. when we could simply just ask the devs to allow performing actions while Dotted? I would think that would be the simplest and easiest way to go about it than to overcomplicate all this.By that logic all casters should have to pass a skill check to cast a spell because they have to pass a skill check to prevent damage from interrupting that cast.

The only reason that any sort of skill checks should be added is that it both makes sense to do so and it would make the game better to do so. I don't see how either, much less both of those cases apply beyond what is already required.

If expanding concentration were to much work, I would settle for a simpler solution for setting damage thresholds, such as up to con score or up to con bonus or some such. Better than simply saying DoTs don't interrupt, but other things do, that simply makes no sense IMO.

To me, the point is to try to set a reasonable threshold, because what we have is rather silly. The concentration skill just seems the right way to do that to me.

[Rykka]

Hehe

Just you and the ROG standing there?

:P

Safest place in a dungeon IS behind the ROG and next to the CLR.

Safest place is at the front of the zerg, IME. Wading through alerted monsters is a much larger PITA.

[Powskier]

don't we players already have to check concentration ourselves at home..how can the game tell if we are concentrating? Did someone drop you on your head...oh wait srry there, how can you be dropped onto your own head?:)

[Gauthaag]

Maybe you misunderstand my point. I'm saying concentration is not enough to work.

When you are getting hit for hundreds of points, you will not pass the concentration check anyway.

no doubt that with recent damage scaling vs. concentration skill progression we ll get to point when concentration is unusable. but thats thing already discussed in other thread concerning revamping concentration use for casting. also as its cross class skill, some classes or combinations of arent even capable to reach full value. but thats imho fine - its narrow use skill and imho not ment like universal solution - its quite like umd or tumbling, its nice to have but u can sure live without it. my point was rather to let people who take effort get some reward instead of high ranked useless skill.

i am also fan of idea that if u re getting hit for 100s of points u shouldnt be able to complete the action. the change suggested was not ment to allow opening dors in middle of melee.

an per number of hit points vs. damage taken - imho number of hitpoints just says, how hard are u to kill, while concentration score is saying how hard u have to be hit to divert your attention.

[Gauthaag]

its an action just like searching or opening doors. it may be instantaneous or cant be disrupted, but an action nonetheless.

there has to be a fail somehow if you are using a skill to not disrupt your action. which also means there has to be a save against disruption. there would have to be a check for every door, every lever, every switch, every rune, recalling, switching armor, searching, any action. this would mean investment into a skill that is also a cross class skill for barb, fighter and rogue. if there is no investment and there is no fail chance, than why would we use a skill to prevent disruption while Dotted and go through the time and coding to change how concentration works and probably for doors levers, etc. when we could simply just ask the devs to allow performing actions while Dotted? I would think that would be the simplest and easiest way to go about it than to overcomplicate all this.

nope, its not - its like u say that seeing mobs is action and thus can be interrupted, having such sort of enhanced detection just improve your sensory input without any added effort. its exactly like spot or listen works

[Qhualor]

nope, its not - its like u say that seeing mobs is action and thus can be interrupted, having such sort of enhanced detection just improve your sensory input without any added effort. its exactly like spot or listen works

nope. in an MMO you skip the rolling of the dice for automatic detection.

[Qhualor]

By that logic all casters should have to pass a skill check to cast a spell because they have to pass a skill check to prevent damage from interrupting that cast.

no. spell casting still requires a concentration check to prevent disruption. some of you are trying to include opening doors as part of the skill check.

edit: changed my response.

[Paleus]

Ah, so we should all just stop making suggestions because they might not be feasible and the devs might screw something up if they do think it's feasible. Should we all also never leave our homes because we could get mugged, hit by a bus or struck by lightning?

The only one's who could say whether this is feasible or not would be those actually working on the code and even if it is, there is nothing wrong with giving an opinion on the subject anyway.

You go outside? How brave. You've presented an incredible leap of argumentation to mischaracterize a position. A similar mischaracterization would be to state that people should never disagree with anyone else.

The original was a cost-benefit statement. People often make suggestions that could cost X amount of someone else's resources, so they do not have to take an action that would cost them personally Y amount of time. This is one of them. Rather than having to personally deal wtih an archer plinking them, the player would want Turbine to spend time recoding a basic feature of the game. I think people can make suggestions, but I still think people can disagree with them.

[walkin_dude]

There are often many suggestions that boil down to "please devote an inordinate amount of resources so that I do not have to make marginal adjustments to my gameplay style."

To me, they seem more like, "please make it so that I don't have to have a gameplay style."

[Gauthaag]

You go outside? How brave. You've presented an incredible leap of argumentation to mischaracterize a position. A similar mischaracterization would be to state that people should never disagree with anyone else.

The original was a cost-benefit statement. People often make suggestions that could cost X amount of someone else's resources, so they do not have to take an action that would cost them personally Y amount of time. This is one of them. Rather than having to personally deal wtih an archer plinking them, the player would want Turbine to spend time recoding a basic feature of the game. I think people can make suggestions, but I still think people can disagree with them.

well, yeah and nope:) sure implementing any suggestion cost resources, repairing bugs also cost resources. the original suggestion was made just as an addition to imho really legitimate demand of revamping DCs for concetration rolls. i just added this because i thought if someone would invest time into DC matter, he would be dealing with concentration anyway, so why not to put little effort (presuming it is little effort) to add change which not only would make concentration useful in way it was intended in PnP ruleset, but also make overall sense and in some cases can make life of adventurer easier.

and the call it means recoding basic feature of the game? well repair being used only for regaining hp at shrine was also basic feature of the game, using spot for spotting (and not searching like some enhancements enable now) and such was also basic feature of the game and got changed - there are no unchangeable features.

and sure everyone has right to have an opinion, and disagree with suggestion, tho if anyone is blaming someone of making wrong statements or even lying, he should prove it:)

[Hendrik]

All those things already have them. Never noticed the bar that says "using" in it that fills with yellow as you do those actions?

If damage is more than concentration, that warrior is likely to fail. As they should IMO. If that one archer is enough to keep them from doing what they want, then killing it is an option to solve that problem, but it shouldn't be the only option.

It is not the only option, just the most sensible.

But you could;

Mez
Range
Melee
Cast
Pull
Retreat - they usually move forward to LOS.
Use hireling
Use any one of the other party member
Trip
Stun
Turn
Summon via spell or scroll


And thats what I can think of with just one cup of coffee.

[slarden]

It is not the only option, just the most sensible.

But you could;

Mez
Range
Melee
Cast
Pull
Retreat - they usually move forward to LOS.
Use hireling
Use any one of the other party member
Trip
Stun
Turn
Summon via spell or scroll


And thats what I can think of with just one cup of coffee.

Bard fascinate works great. The only bad thing is that fascinated mobs still contribute to dungeon alert.

[Gauthaag]

It is not the only option, just the most sensible.

But you could;

Mez
Range
Melee
Cast
Pull
Retreat - they usually move forward to LOS.
Use hireling
Use any one of the other party member
Trip
Stun
Turn
Summon via spell or scroll


And thats what I can think of with just one cup of coffee.

well yeah, thats lot of options - tho not all might be available or efficient. good luck with eliminating archers in oob with incoming respawning mobs while dealing with fire trap:)
tho when there are so "many" options, why not to add one more?

[Paleus]

well yeah, thats lot of options - tho not all might be available or efficient. good luck with eliminating archers in oob with incoming respawning mobs while dealing with fire trap:)
tho when there are so "many" options, why not to add one more?

So there is one quest where you have trouble opening a door, you have been presented with numerous options to solve the problem of opening the door, and you still want to argue that we need to devote time to developing yet one more "option" to solving the problem. The problem which basically boils down to you are unable to completely ignore mobs while running through a dungeon. And the solution being to change a skill so that you can effectively ignore the mobs? That about sum it up?

That's my issue with this suggestion. Regardless of how easy or difficult it is to implement (and I doubt its truly easy), I'm not sure I see the benefit in trying to make the threat posed by mobs even less when a player could simply employ one of the numerous options presented to deal with it rather than asking for Turbine to change a mechanic so a player doesn't have to.

Also, sidenote: Does anyone remember when being interrupted caused an action to be instantly completed? A bug a little while back. It seemed great at first to do things like instantly find traps, but quickly became honestly hella annoying because everytime it was a quest objective and you got interrupted you had to submit a ticket to fix the quest or just skip those quests entirely. Things like that make me think this is not so easy to change without affecting other things we aren't even thinking about.

[Gauthaag]

So there is one quest where you have trouble opening a door, you have been presented with numerous options to solve the problem of opening the door, and you still want to argue that we need to devote time to developing yet one more "option" to solving the problem. The problem which basically boils down to you are unable to completely ignore mobs while running through a dungeon. And the solution being to change a skill so that you can effectively ignore the mobs? That about sum it up?

That's my issue with this suggestion. Regardless of how easy or difficult it is to implement (and I doubt its truly easy), I'm not sure I see the benefit in trying to make the threat posed by mobs even less when a player could simply employ one of the numerous options presented to deal with it rather than asking for Turbine to change a mechanic so a player doesn't have to.

Also, sidenote: Does anyone remember when being interrupted caused an action to be instantly completed? A bug a little while back. It seemed great at first to do things like instantly find traps, but quickly became honestly hella annoying because everytime it was a quest objective and you got interrupted you had to submit a ticket to fix the quest or just skip those quests entirely. Things like that make me think this is not so easy to change without affecting other things we aren't even thinking about.

i dont have trouble with that:) i never said i personally have trouble with anything (i was doing trapper in epic chains in times it was counted as achievement) - i pointed at that quest as its easily remembered and good example of unreachable opponents. i personally met maybe one group where rogue disabled that trap, usually passing it w no effort (but hell it s trap - it s supposed to be disarmed and thus we all do it wrong). and it is not only about mobs - its about dots too. and i m not asking nerfing dots (tho bleeding ones should be stopped by magical healing, same way as poison ones are stopped by neutralize poison), i am asking about option to continue my action without interruption instead of standing at spot waiting for dot wearing off. if designer intent was to hold me at spot, then cmon try to hold me, but if done unpreventable way, u can simply put there timed invisible wall:)

and yeah, i remeber that bug and the isues it brought (tho quick recalling from quest was cool). And i m still saying that if it means such effort or such risk, whatever - it s not probly worth it.

i m still not seeing why is this idea so off limits - if we got such changes as MRR to armors - we already had quite lot options how one can mitigate spell damage, havent we?

[Hendrik]

well yeah, thats lot of options - tho not all might be available or efficient. good luck with eliminating archers in oob with incoming respawning mobs while dealing with fire trap:)
tho when there are so "many" options, why not to add one more?

They dont all have to be efficient or available. They just need to be there to use. Take your pick of what is available to you.

Don't need luck dealing with archers, respawns or traps in OOB. I use all the tools available to me and my party - and they work.


Try a Bard. They make it stupidly easy.

[Gremmlynn]

You go outside? How brave. You've presented an incredible leap of argumentation to mischaracterize a position. A similar mischaracterization would be to state that people should never disagree with anyone else.

The original was a cost-benefit statement. People often make suggestions that could cost X amount of someone else's resources, so they do not have to take an action that would cost them personally Y amount of time. This is one of them. Rather than having to personally deal wtih an archer plinking them, the player would want Turbine to spend time recoding a basic feature of the game. I think people can make suggestions, but I still think people can disagree with them.Yes this is one of them and it's one of them where it is perfectly justified due to the customer/vendor relationship between the two parties. In this case the customer is stating what they want from the product and the vendor is free to provide that or not with the knowledge that providing it could have a positive impact on their business.

It's what is commonly referred to as customer feedback. Whether what is being asked for is cost effective or not is something that vendor has to determine. Not something that should prevent the customer from making the suggestion due to a cost benefit statement that is based purely on their assumptions. Which is where the analogies come in. Assuming something isn't cost effective based just because it might not be is not much different than assuming one will get hit by a bus just because they could.

Hell, even if it's proven to not be cost effective. There is no harm in discussing it on a "what if it were" basis.

[deuxanes]

I have a proposition (dunno if it was already mentioned here):

New Feat: Swiftness of Action
Prerequisite: (?)
Description: The character is trained to save as much time as possible when doing any activity. Grants a speed bonus similar to expeditious retreat.

New Feat: Quick Pull
Prerequisite: Swiftness of Action, Others(?)
Description: The character has mastered the use of levers and valves. Instantly pulls a lever or valve.


New Feat: Quick Push
Prerequisite: Swiftness of Action, Others(?)
Description: The character has mastered the use of doors and gates. Instantly opens a door or gate.



That may hopefully solve the underlying issues? ,-)

[Gremmlynn]

It is not the only option, just the most sensible.

But you could;

Mez
Range
Melee
Cast
Pull
Retreat - they usually move forward to LOS.
Use hireling
Use any one of the other party member
Trip
Stun
Turn
Summon via spell or scroll


And thats what I can think of with just one cup of coffee.Basically many ways of saying the same thing. When the issue I see is that the game is coded to make us do things in a rather anal manner. Rather than just offering that sort of Montgomery, tidying the battle field, style of play as a one option and a more Patton, ignore anything that doesn't pose a real threat, style as another.

[Gremmlynn]

They dont all have to be efficient or available. They just need to be there to use. Take your pick of what is available to you.

Don't need luck dealing with archers, respawns or traps in OOB. I use all the tools available to me and my party - and they work.


Try a Bard. They make it stupidly easy.So should we all play bards or all just only play when someone else happens to play one? The more hurtles like this that are placed between players and playing the less people are likely going to play.

Here is what that sort of thinking leads to: Log in, put up LFM for what you want to do, wait 5 mins, and if nobody hits it log out to go do something else rather than waste your free time doing more nothing.

[axel15810]

I'm not for this. It makes sense conceptually but having your actions broken is an important anti-zerging mechanic. You get interrupted because the content is designed in a way that you are intended to kill the monsters before you pull.

We already have a zerging problem with people being able to invise through most dungeons. A change to this would make it much easier to bypass whole parts of a quest. Lots of quests are also built around this functionality and use it as an important challenge in the quest (someone mentioned offering of blood).

Bottom line it would trivialize a lot of content and encourage zerging. That's not good for the game.

[Gremmlynn]

I'm not for this. It makes sense conceptually but having your actions broken is an important anti-zerging mechanic. You get interrupted because the content is designed in a way that you are intended to kill the monsters before you pull.

We already have a zerging problem with people being able to invise through most dungeons. A change to this would make it much easier to bypass whole parts of a quest. Lots of quests are also built around this functionality and use it as an important challenge in the quest (someone mentioned offering of blood).

Bottom line it would trivialize a lot of content and encourage zerging. That's not good for the game.If done right, it would set a threshold between monsters you need to kill because they pose an actual threat and monsters you don't have to (and often should have run away at that point if they had any common sense anyway) since they don't. What is the point of killing monsters that don't pose a real threat, outside of some sort of genocidal urge or the like?

It's a lot like putting a bunch of hidden mouse traps in a quest and not allowing the door to open until they are all disarmed to my mind.

[Gauthaag]

I'm not for this. It makes sense conceptually but having your actions broken is an important anti-zerging mechanic. A change to this would make it much easier to bypass whole parts of a quest.

which one?

and if u think interuptable opening doors is quite efficient for stopping zerging, then there must be some hidden reason beyond changing some quests so u have to kill all MELEE mobs to get thru doors (house of death undone). its probably because former system (ie simple opening doors) was quite efficient

point is that it doesnot seem as game breaking as someone is presenting here, otherwise this isue would appear here before and quite often. or u believe there are so few zergers here, whoce voice would be silent if this was an isue?

[Qhualor]

So should we all play bards or all just only play when someone else happens to play one? The more hurtles like this that are placed between players and playing the less people are likely going to play.

Here is what that sort of thinking leads to: Log in, put up LFM for what you want to do, wait 5 mins, and if nobody hits it log out to go do something else rather than waste your free time doing more nothing.

you make it sound like this is something new. the chance of being disrupted while opening a door and the ways to avoid/absorb/negate that incoming damage has always been available to us. this isn't a new hurdle put in front of us.

[Chai]

So should we all play bards or all just only play when someone else happens to play one? The more hurtles like this that are placed between players and playing the less people are likely going to play.

Here is what that sort of thinking leads to: Log in, put up LFM for what you want to do, wait 5 mins, and if nobody hits it log out to go do something else rather than waste your free time doing more nothing.

I doubt people are quitting because they cannot open a door when surrounded by mobs or DOT'd. I don't equate having barriers in quests that prevent invaders of the monsters homes having run of the mill access to every room with no effort whatsoever, a hurtle that is placed between players and playing. Doors and levers are part of the game. If it were up to me there would be more creative ways the monsters protect their lairs from PCs.

[Gremmlynn]

you make it sound like this is something new. the chance of being disrupted while opening a door and the ways to avoid/absorb/negate that incoming damage has always been available to us. this isn't a new hurdle put in front of us.No, it's been a personal annoyance for as long as I've been playing (I find poor game design intellectually annoying).

[Qhualor]

No, it's been a personal annoyance for as long as I've been playing (I find poor game design intellectually annoying).

ah, ok. so this is more of annoyance for you when a lot of us have been used to being disrupted and figured out ways to open the door without being interrupted and understood why we have it in the first place.

[Gremmlynn]

I doubt people are quitting because they cannot open a door when surrounded by mobs or DOT'd. I don't equate having barriers in quests that prevent invaders of the monsters homes having run of the mill access to every room with no effort whatsoever, a hurtle that is placed between players and playing. Doors and levers are part of the game. If it were up to me there would be more creative ways the monsters protect their lairs from PCs.No, but if the answers to every issue are to "be in a properly balanced group" as some posting here would have it, we would see players drifting away from the game.

I'd personally have mobs drop back once their threat is broken, rather than suicidally plinking away to activate poor game mechanics. But could live with just fixing those mechanics so they can just be left behind if that would put to much strain on the AI.

[Gauthaag]

If it were up to me there would be more creative ways the monsters protect their lairs from PCs.

exactly. i would be even satisfyied if i d be stoppen in way that makes sense (oh , i have to kill all spiders so the web can be cut - cmon:) )

[Gremmlynn]

ah, ok. so this is more of annoyance for you when a lot of us have been used to being disrupted and figured out ways to open the door without being interrupted and understood why we have it in the first place.Actually, understanding why we have it is what makes it an annoyance. It's no more than a pointless time sink that makes no logical sense at all, which I find annoying.

[Gremmlynn]

exactly. i would be even satisfyied if i d be stoppen in way that makes sense (oh , i have to kill all spiders so the web can be cut - cmon:) )Yep, same basic issue.

[Qhualor]

Actually, understanding why we have it is what makes it an annoyance. It's no more than a pointless time sink that makes no logical sense at all, which I find annoying.

yes, zergers do find it annoying and pointless. if this were to change, it would make them a lot happier and be able to shave more minutes off their completion time.

[Gauthaag]

ah, ok. so this is more of annoyance for you when a lot of us have been used to being disrupted and figured out ways to open the door without being interrupted and understood why we have it in the first place.

so the resistance is based upon "we can do it, but why we should allow do it someone else in other way?"

[Gauthaag]

yes, zergers do find it annoying and pointless. if this were to change, it would make them a lot happier and be able to shave more minutes off their completion time.

sure, now find me anyone having fun standing on spot being dotted. and in meantime u could explain me, why traps were trivialized and purely ad hoc additional armor protection added. very likely because someone was going too slowly and cant get thru traps fast enough to keep intended pace, right?

[Gremmlynn]

yes, zergers do find it annoying and pointless. if this were to change, it would make them a lot happier and be able to shave more minutes off their completion time.First time I've ever been described as a zerger. What is pointless about it is that preventing us from opening that door is the only thing that lone archer is doing. Which makes dealing with it pointless beyond that illogical bit of game mechanics. Frankly, in most cases it puts more strain on party resources to deal with it in the illogical way the game demands than in the logical way of simply putting up with it while opening the door and then moving out of it's line of sight.

[bartharok]

ah, ok. so this is more of annoyance for you when a lot of us have been used to being disrupted and figured out ways to open the door without being interrupted and understood why we have it in the first place.

As long as we had just archers interupting you, or the occasional dot spell i didnt mind it. But recently we have had more and more dot type effects, some of them lasting for a long(ish) time, the most annoying of which are howler quills. I hate standing still waiting for the quills to wear off to open a door. Especially since the damage is usually 1-2 points a tick.

[bartharok]

yes, zergers do find it annoying and pointless. if this were to change, it would make them a lot happier and be able to shave more minutes off their completion time.

Im not a zerger, but i do find it annoying. Id be more than happy if the amount of incoming damage needed to interupt an normal action was raised to 4. That would prevent the silliest interruptions, while letting true damage stop people from opening doors and such.

[Chai]

No, but if the answers to every issue are to "be in a properly balanced group" as some posting here would have it, we would see players drifting away from the game.

I'd personally have mobs drop back once their threat is broken, rather than suicidally plinking away to activate poor game mechanics. But could live with just fixing those mechanics so they can just be left behind if that would put to much strain on the AI.

The game has drifted more and more in the direction of advocating soloing over the years, not requiring a balanced group. To make it require grouping would mean reversing 5+ years of making it easier on soloing, which is not going to happen.

Opening doors and throwing levers is not the bane of soloing, its the bane of not wanting to kill mobs.

I don't hate the idea of using concentration for this if its something they can do without diverting resources from developing new content, but any argument that DDO requires grouping was drowned long ago In a sea of 5+ years of turning it into a soloers paradise.

[Gremmlynn]

The game has drifted more and more in the direction of advocating soloing over the years, not requiring a balanced group. To make it require grouping would mean reversing 5+ years of making it easier on soloing, which is not going to happen.

Opening doors and throwing levers is not the bane of soloing, its the bane of not wanting to kill mobs.

I don't hate the idea of using concentration for this if its something they can do without diverting resources from developing new content, but any argument that DDO requires grouping was drowned long ago In a sea of 5+ years of turning it into a soloers paradise.Reversing that would be a major mistake IMO. DDO isn't designed in a way that is really compatible with that sort of play. Games with set roles and very little variation are games that best support that type of thing and is likely why they are designed in such a "cookie cutter" manner. It just makes getting your customers to reliably provide each other with the game experience they expect much more reliable with pug groups.


Personally, I don't have a problem with killing mobs if there is a reason beyond this sort of made up mechanic to do so. Just as I don't mind not killing mobs if there is a better option available. What I dislike is having that decision taken away and basically being told to play the quest the way we decided it should be played. That is whats most annoying. Ever played with a DM that got upset if anyone made any decision that didn't follow their script of exactly how everyone would react to every situation in an adventure? That is what these sorts of mechanics make me feel about this game.

[Paleus]

If it were up to me there would be more creative ways the monsters protect their lairs from PCs.

And now for something completely different that this made me think of:

If it were up to me, mobs would put the power source for their impenetrable barriers and doors on the side of the barrier they were protecting. Seriously, I thought Lars Heyton was supposed to be some kind of intelligent savior. Yet in the first quest with this mechanic that we see, the three power crystals to his protective barrier are on the side of the barrier that anyone can easily get to. How does that make any sense?

Maybe if he didnt love fish-sticks so much Lars would have had time to logically design his defenses. But then no one would have gotten to unlock Misery's Peak.

[Hendrik]

So should we all play bards or all just only play when someone else happens to play one? The more hurtles like this that are placed between players and playing the less people are likely going to play.

Here is what that sort of thinking leads to: Log in, put up LFM for what you want to do, wait 5 mins, and if nobody hits it log out to go do something else rather than waste your free time doing more nothing.

Yes, you should all play Bards because you cannot open a door.

Or, you can just kill that MOB or wait a few extra seconds vs having the DEVs re-work a skill so you don't have to kill it.

[bartharok]

And now for something completely different that this made me think of:

If it were up to me, mobs would put the power source for their impenetrable barriers and doors on the side of the barrier they were protecting. Seriously, I thought Lars Heyton was supposed to be some kind of intelligent savior. Yet in the first quest with this mechanic that we see, the three power crystals to his protective barrier are on the side of the barrier that anyone can easily get to. How does that make any sense?

Maybe if he didnt love fish-sticks so much Lars would have had time to logically design his defenses. But then no one would have gotten to unlock Misery's Peak.

Why do you think lars hadnt been seen for a while, and why do you think that you had to do all the heavy lifting in Korthos. Lars was halfwitted enough to lock himself in with only a warforged for company, and then couldnt even bring himself to admit he had made a mistake. He was very lucky in the sahuagin being even stupider than him, since they couldnt figure out what powered the barrier.

[Gauthaag]

And now for something completely different that this made me think of:

If it were up to me, mobs would put the power source for their impenetrable barriers and doors on the side of the barrier they were protecting. Seriously, I thought Lars Heyton was supposed to be some kind of intelligent savior. Yet in the first quest with this mechanic that we see, the three power crystals to his protective barrier are on the side of the barrier that anyone can easily get to. How does that make any sense?

Maybe if he didnt love fish-sticks so much Lars would have had time to logically design his defenses. But then no one would have gotten to unlock Misery's Peak.

he was probly improvising when found this long forgotten cannith manufactury.and from what we see he wasnot very good at setting protective measures:) even bloody sahuagins did it better:)

and choosing psyco wf as his bodyguard who will kill him with cleaves while protecting him was similar isue:)

[Gremmlynn]

Yes, you should all play Bards because you cannot open a door.

Or, you can just kill that MOB or wait a few extra seconds vs having the DEVs re-work a skill so you don't have to kill it.Or go do something else when the annoyance level gets high enough. Personally, I have to believe that DDO needs us more than any of us needs DDO. So think they would find it in their best interest to at least think about customer concerns such as this.

[Gauthaag]

Yes, you should all play Bards because you cannot open a door.

Or, you can just kill that MOB or wait a few extra seconds vs having the DEVs re-work a skill so you don't have to kill it.

two days ago u shared your insight on concentration skill without knowledge, how it is used in game. thanks for sharing your insight on implementation of suggested feature today.

[Qhualor]

As long as we had just archers interupting you, or the occasional dot spell i didnt mind it. But recently we have had more and more dot type effects, some of them lasting for a long(ish) time, the most annoying of which are howler quills. I hate standing still waiting for the quills to wear off to open a door. Especially since the damage is usually 1-2 points a tick.

I always felt something was off with the quills. I meant to look more into it. I'll try to remember again tonight to see if I can make some sense out of it.

[Faltout]

if you are a rogue, I would assume you have evasion, umd for blur, maybe some gear and also using sneak. there is an enhancements that increases sneak speed and can haste yourself. you can also use someone else to attract the attention of mobs while you disarm the trap. there are certain traps that can still hit you, like dart traps, but blur gives you a chance to miss or you could try timing the trap. in general though, if you are taking a lot of damage from traps than might want to look into improving your reflex.

I question how you perceive rogue abilities and how you build them.
When I am a rogue, I have evasion, blur and umd etc. I used sneak while playing my first rogue (which was a first lifer and had more than enough skills). Didn't play out. The group was always miles ahead of me. Ended using snea... breaking. Using sne... breaking. Finally I decided to not use sneak at all and just stay behind the other party members so I wouldn't get aggro.

When I am a rogue, I'm usually a trapper, because I love trappers. The option to have faster sneaking is in acrobat. I do not put early points in there because there are more pressing enhancements for a rogue. But that's beside the point. Let's say, there are not pressing enhancements and I choose faster sneaking.

When I am a rogue, I find that reflex rolls of 1 usually fail. I also find that trying to sneak through a trap usually ends with the trap hitting me about 10 times (the tough trap kind). One of those times I'll roll a 1 and die. Now, since I'm a fairly good player, I can manage to pass through the tough kind of trap on any character provided I have some speed and jump. So, when I am a rogue, I use that skill to pass through the trap provoking no reflex save rolls that could kill me or the party members standing behind me (see Maid to Order).

Finally I want to add that you're unloading a ton of **** at me because you know that most rogues pass traps non-sneaking. I've yet to see a rogue doing otherwise.

[walkin_dude]

The more hurtles like this that are placed between players and playing the less people are likely going to play.

IMO, opening doors, using valves, searching, and other actions are part of playing. Removing any risk involved in trying to do those things while being attacked by mobs is ... well, I can't see where it makes sense. This isn't Pac-Man, it's a dungeon crawl game.

[bartharok]

I always felt something was off with the quills. I meant to look more into it. I'll try to remember again tonight to see if I can make some sense out of it.

Something IS off. The timer doesnt seem to have anything to do with the duration, and the damage can tick for a while AFTER it stops interrupting.

[Chai]

And now for something completely different that this made me think of:

If it were up to me, mobs would put the power source for their impenetrable barriers and doors on the side of the barrier they were protecting. Seriously, I thought Lars Heyton was supposed to be some kind of intelligent savior. Yet in the first quest with this mechanic that we see, the three power crystals to his protective barrier are on the side of the barrier that anyone can easily get to. How does that make any sense?

Maybe if he didnt love fish-sticks so much Lars would have had time to logically design his defenses. But then no one would have gotten to unlock Misery's Peak.

Lars didn't create the cannith manufactury, he was just holed up there with a propane grill and some tongs, putting fish back on the menu for the starving citizens of korthos.

[Qhualor]

Or go do something else when the annoyance level gets high enough. Personally, I have to believe that DDO needs us more than any of us needs DDO. So think they would find it in their best interest to at least think about customer concerns such as this.

To be honest, the first time I heard any real complaint before this thread was howler quills. Before that, nothing. I wouldn't be surprised if something was changed though because sometimes if you ask you will receive. Than we have a watered down game that has strayed so far from its core with lots of buttons of winning.

[Gremmlynn]

IMO, opening doors, using valves, searching, and other actions are part of playing. Removing any risk involved in trying to do those things while being attacked by mobs is ... well, I can't see where it makes sense. This isn't Pac-Man, it's a dungeon crawl game.There's a difference between removing any risk and preventing their use when there is no real risk present.

Adding some sort of damage threshold, be it a concentration check, or damage up to one's con score, con bonus, character level or whatever sets a reasonable threshold between the character actually being at risk and the "we just want you to kill all the monsters because they are there and we are anal retentive that way" that we now have.

[walkin_dude]

There's a difference between removing any risk and preventing their use when there is no real risk present.

Adding some sort of damage threshold, be it a concentration check, or damage up to one's con score, con bonus, character level or whatever sets a reasonable threshold between the character actually being at risk and the "we just want you to kill all the monsters because they are there and we are anal retentive that way" that we now have.

If a toon has all sorts of PRR/MRR, AC, DR, and other defenses, I can easily see where 1 HP of damage is the result of a very impressive effort. Even if it doesn't result in a life-threatening injury, the positional adjustment necessary to regain one's balance can certainly explain the interruption of an action.

Call it what it is: some folks want yet another thing dumbed down in DDO.

[Hendrik]

two days ago u shared your insight on concentration skill without knowledge, how it is used in game. thanks for sharing your insight on implementation of suggested feature today.

Your welcome and rest assured I will continue to give feedback on this and my opposition to it will continue.

[Hendrik]

If a toon has all sorts of PRR/MRR, AC, DR, and other defenses, I can easily see where 1 HP of damage is the result of a very impressive effort. Even if it doesn't result in a life-threatening injury, the positional adjustment necessary to regain one's balance can certainly explain the interruption of an action.

Call it what it is: some folks want yet another thing dumbed down in DDO.

All this wanting to be changed all due some archer, quill, or some DOT.

Forcing Concentration checks on ROG and Arty sillks because some epic character cannot open a door or take the time to deal with an archer.

Forcing this on the majority so the solo player can have an easier time.

With all but a couple quests designed for a specific group size solo players know they may have a little bit of a more difficult time. Part of the accepted risk of solo play.

[bartharok]

All this wanting to be changed all due some archer, quill, or some DOT.

Forcing Concentration checks on ROG and Arty sillks because some epic character cannot open a door or take the time to deal with an archer.

Forcing this on the majority so the solo player can have an easier time.

With all but a couple quests designed for a specific group size solo players know they may have a little bit of a more difficult time. Part of the accepted risk of solo play.

Whos forcing anything? It would just mean that even without any investment you would have a chance of opening a door or whatever while being pelted with peanuts.

[Chai]

There's a difference between removing any risk and preventing their use when there is no real risk present.

Adding some sort of damage threshold, be it a concentration check, or damage up to one's con score, con bonus, character level or whatever sets a reasonable threshold between the character actually being at risk and the "we just want you to kill all the monsters because they are there and we are anal retentive that way" that we now have.

That's one extreme. The other extreme is "I don't want to kill anything I just want to run past it all so I can shave a minute or two off my completion time".

The game is actually somewhere in the middle. Unless a quest has a "kill x monsters" objective, we really don't need to kill all monsters. People aren't stopped at every single door and lever. its not even close to the majority of the levers and doors that this becomes annoying at. If howlers are broke, fix howlers.

I think people who support this idea should be focusing on specific examples where this becomes annoying rather than declaring it as a blanket statement, which wont be believed by anyone who had played this game once through.

[Gauthaag]

If a toon has all sorts of PRR/MRR, AC, DR, and other defenses, I can easily see where 1 HP of damage is the result of a very impressive effort. Even if it doesn't result in a life-threatening injury, the positional adjustment necessary to regain one's balance can certainly explain the interruption of an action.

Call it what it is: some folks want yet another thing dumbed down in DDO.

it will be dumbed down same way falling damage is dumbed down with tumbling. wha about abstraction? - try now explain me how evasion works while holding a lever or opening doors

and several times i wrote, it wont very likely save u from huge blows, and definitely is not way to avoid any damage, it would serve only one purpose - to have task done while damaged.
i really dont understand why this thing is pretty legal in PnP ruleset tho getting such denial here despite such difference we have here vs. pnp which is not really in our favor

[Qhualor]

When I am a rogue, I have evasion, blur and umd etc. I used sneak while playing my first rogue (which was a first lifer and had more than enough skills). Didn't play out. The group was always miles ahead of me. Ended using snea... breaking. Using sne... breaking. Finally I decided to not use sneak at all and just stay behind the other party members so I wouldn't get aggro.

When I am a rogue, I'm usually a trapper, because I love trappers. The option to have faster sneaking is in acrobat. I do not put early points in there because there are more pressing enhancements for a rogue. But that's beside the point. Let's say, there are not pressing enhancements and I choose faster sneaking.

When I am a rogue, I find that reflex rolls of 1 usually fail. I also find that trying to sneak through a trap usually ends with the trap hitting me about 10 times (the tough trap kind). One of those times I'll roll a 1 and die. Now, since I'm a fairly good player, I can manage to pass through the tough kind of trap on any character provided I have some speed and jump. So, when I am a rogue, I use that skill to pass through the trap provoking no reflex save rolls that could kill me or the party members standing behind me (see Maid to Order).

Finally I want to add that you're unloading a ton of **** at me because you know that most rogues pass traps non-sneaking. I've yet to see a rogue doing otherwise.

looks like you just outlined one aspect of the game that has been watered down so much that groups do not wait for trappers usually because traps are generally not threatening enough. if you are in a group like this, which is the usual as ive experienced exactly the same thing most times, sneaking wont matter. if the group is not waiting for you to get traps or wait up for you while you try to avoid agro, than traps are the least of your worries. well, except when you as a rogue are having so much difficulties evading traps while the group doesn't...

[bartharok]

looks like you just outlined one aspect of the game that has been watered down so much that groups do not wait for trappers usually because traps are generally not threatening enough. if you are in a group like this, which is the usual as ive experienced exactly the same thing most times, sneaking wont matter. if the group is not waiting for you to get traps or wait up for you while you try to avoid agro, than traps are the least of your worries. well, except when you as a rogue are having so much difficulties evading traps while the group doesn't...

Do you remember the outcry when traps actually were deadly for a while? People were offended because they couldnt just run through them, but had to get someone to disarm them.

The horror...

[Gauthaag]

When I am a rogue, I have evasion, blur and umd etc. I used sneak while playing my first rogue (which was a first lifer and had more than enough skills). Didn't play out. The group was always miles ahead of me. Ended using snea... breaking. Using sne... breaking. Finally I decided to not use sneak at all and just stay behind the other party members so I wouldn't get aggro.

When I am a rogue, I'm usually a trapper, because I love trappers. The option to have faster sneaking is in acrobat. I do not put early points in there because there are more pressing enhancements for a rogue. But that's beside the point. Let's say, there are not pressing enhancements and I choose faster sneaking.

When I am a rogue, I find that reflex rolls of 1 usually fail. I also find that trying to sneak through a trap usually ends with the trap hitting me about 10 times (the tough trap kind). One of those times I'll roll a 1 and die. Now, since I'm a fairly good player, I can manage to pass through the tough kind of trap on any character provided I have some speed and jump. So, when I am a rogue, I use that skill to pass through the trap provoking no reflex save rolls that could kill me or the party members standing behind me (see Maid to Order).

Finally I want to add that you're unloading a ton of **** at me because you know that most rogues pass traps non-sneaking. I've yet to see a rogue doing otherwise.

trapper advice - dont sneak thru traps. invest a bit in UMD (well, rather invest a lot, its useful later to have fine UMD - but having some decent at low levels help a lot too) and u should be able to use invisibility scrolls. it should work far better than sneaking, doesnot slow u down and with some care u dont even raise suspicion of mobs. dont depend on your reflex saves, try to learn fine timing for each type of trap - almost all can be at least partially avoided. save sneak for cases, when u meet mobs imune to invisibility or mobs with invisibility detection.

[Qhualor]

Do you remember the outcry when traps actually were deadly for a while? People were offended because they couldnt just run through them, but had to get someone to disarm them.

The horror...

yeah, some people called it forced grouping in a social MMO. I remember when the search timer was reduced because it was too long to wait for the trapper to find the trap and than have to disable it. now we have auto detect to save those 2 seconds of search. trappers have been reduced to 30% bonus xp while the rest of the group gets to play.

[Gauthaag]

yeah, some people called it forced grouping in a social MMO. I remember when the search timer was reduced because it was too long to wait for the trapper to find the trap and than have to disable it. now we have auto detect to save those 2 seconds of search. trappers have been reduced to 30% bonus xp while the rest of the group gets to play.

any trapper worth its name would imho say you the autodetect is waste of AP

[bartharok]

any trapper worth its name would imho say you the autodetect is waste of AP

Yes. i play a lot of trappers, but havent had more than one that had it (for a very short while)

[Robai]

How about Listen skill instead? :)
I know, it makes no sense, but you have to listen to the sound of pulling lever so hard that nobody will interrupt you :)

[bartharok]

How about Listen skill instead? :)
I know, it makes no sense, but you have to listen to the sound of pulling lever so hard that nobody will interrupt you :)

The noise of battle would make it impossible. Maybe tumbling to get the tumblers?

[Gauthaag]

How about Listen skill instead? :)
I know, it makes no sense, but you have to listen to the sound of pulling lever so hard that nobody will interrupt you :)

If lever is pulled and no one is there does it make sound?

[walkin_dude]

i really dont understand why this thing is pretty legal in PnP ruleset tho getting such denial here despite such difference we have here vs. pnp which is not really in our favor

Because there is almost no barrier in DDO to running full-tilt through quests with left mouse button held down as it is. The few that are there, I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to find a way to deal with them rather than just removing them. Again, DDO isn't supposed to be Pac-Man.

[walkin_dude]

Yes. i play a lot of trappers, but havent had more than one that had it (for a very short while)

I don't believe I've ever selected that enhancement. Too much other stuff needing the AP.

[Gauthaag]

Because there is almost no barrier in DDO to running full-tilt through quests with left mouse button held down as it is. The few that are there, I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to find a way to deal with them rather than just removing them. Again, DDO isn't supposed to be Pac-Man.

but it will still stop u anyway, no one is speaking about autocompletion - the timer is set for about six seconds (while usual dot ticks per 2 seconds (some has lower rate)- quite consistent right?), u need to spend there doing nothing but operating door, lever whatever. and what barrier does chest represent?

[Hendrik]

Whos forcing anything? It would just mean that even without any investment you would have a chance of opening a door or whatever while being pelted with peanuts.

By making sure that ROG and Arties have to make concentration checks to preform class abilities while under fire.

It's shifting a burden of the 'weight' to two classes so a non-ROG/Arty can open a door.

Still, it is not a bad idea, but implementation is lacking in a big way.

Sure this would take care of being lazy in not wanting to deal with what is hitting you while opening a door/lever/switch/rune, but does nothing for everything else. It does nothing for every other single combat encounter out there.

It is a band aid fix to underlying issues that does nothing to address core issues.

[bartharok]

By making sure that ROG and Arties have to make concentration checks to preform class abilities while under fire.

It's shifting a burden of the 'weight' to two classes so a non-ROG/Arty can open a door.

Still, it is not a bad idea, but implementation is lacking in a big way.

Sure this would take care of being lazy in not wanting to deal with what is hitting you while opening a door/lever/switch/rune, but does nothing for everything else. It does nothing for every other single combat encounter out there.

It is a band aid fix to underlying issues that does nothing to address core issues.

Have to? The idea is to give them a chance to perform their class abilities while taking minor damage. Which they cant do now.

And what core issues do you mean? Taking damage? Wanting to open doors while under fire?

[Ancient]

Because there is almost no barrier in DDO to running full-tilt through quests with left mouse button held down as it is. The few that are there, I think it's perfectly reasonable for people to find a way to deal with them rather than just removing them. Again, DDO isn't supposed to be Pac-Man.

Wheloon prison can hit you with a dot that does tiny amounts of damage but can last almost a minute. That isn't wanting to Zerg, but maybe not sit and twiddle our thumbs either...

[Hendrik]

Have to? The idea is to give them a chance to perform their class abilities while taking minor damage. Which they cant do now.

And what core issues do you mean? Taking damage? Wanting to open doors while under fire?

Inflated HD we face that make Concentration skill checks worthless everywhere, minus the few and situational examples given - one being bugged, the quill dot.

If people are not using the vast amount of options available to deal with that situation, what good will one more option do?

There are many, many ways to not take damage while your preforming those class abilities, anyone can do as many of them as they have access to not to mention every other person in the party.

The only difference, IMO, is one way you need to deal with it, other way you can just skip it. Take the path of least resistance.

This is a band aid fix to a much larger problem.

[Hendrik]

Wheloon prison can hit you with a dot that does tiny amounts of damage but can last almost a minute. That isn't wanting to Zerg, but maybe not sit and twiddle our thumbs either...

Tried blocking Quill bleed?

Get aggro, turtle up, and someone else can open door?



Not positive that bleed is WAI also.

[Qhualor]

so in reference to quills from Howlers http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Howler

Quills (Ex): A howler’s neck bristles with long quills. While biting, the creature thrashes about, striking with 1d4 of them. An opponent hit by a howler’s quill attack must succeed on a DC 16 Reflex save or have the quill break off in his or her flesh. Lodged quills impose a –1 penalty on attacks, saves, and checks per quill. The save DC is Dexterity-based.

A quill can be removed safely with a DC 20 Heal check; otherwise, removing a quill deals an extra 1d6 points of damage.

Howl (Ex): All beings other than outsiders that hear the creature’s howling for an hour or longer are subject to its effect, though it does not help the howler in combat. Anyone within hearing range of a howler for a full hour must succeed on a DC 12 Will save or take 1 point of Wisdom damage. The save DC is Charisma-based. The save must be repeated for each hour of exposure. This is a sonic mind-affecting effect.

I read this as you take quill damage only when Howlers bite you. that is not the case in DDO. you have a chance to succeed on a quill attack using a reflex save which I don't believe to be the case in DDO.

Heal would be the skill to use, not concentration. fail your Heal check and continue taking damage. succeed and its gone. this would make Heal more useful for all classes, but Howlers aren't exactly common in the game.

when Howlers howl, we should be taking a stacking wisdom point in wisdom damage. running the Wheloon quests you hear Howlers howling so they should be causing damage if we fail our save. maybe that's the confusion because we shouldn't be taking tick damage.

[Gauthaag]

so in reference to quills from Howlers http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Howler

Quills (Ex): A howler’s neck bristles with long quills. While biting, the creature thrashes about, striking with 1d4 of them. An opponent hit by a howler’s quill attack must succeed on a DC 16 Reflex save or have the quill break off in his or her flesh. Lodged quills impose a –1 penalty on attacks, saves, and checks per quill. The save DC is Dexterity-based.

A quill can be removed safely with a DC 20 Heal check; otherwise, removing a quill deals an extra 1d6 points of damage.

Howl (Ex): All beings other than outsiders that hear the creature’s howling for an hour or longer are subject to its effect, though it does not help the howler in combat. Anyone within hearing range of a howler for a full hour must succeed on a DC 12 Will save or take 1 point of Wisdom damage. The save DC is Charisma-based. The save must be repeated for each hour of exposure. This is a sonic mind-affecting effect.

I read this as you take quill damage only when Howlers bite you. that is not the case in DDO. you have a chance to succeed on a quill attack using a reflex save which I don't believe to be the case in DDO.

Heal would be the skill to use, not concentration. fail your Heal check and continue taking damage. succeed and its gone. this would make Heal more useful for all classes, but Howlers aren't exactly common in the game.

when Howlers howl, we should be taking a stacking wisdom point in wisdom damage. running the Wheloon quests you hear Howlers howling so they should be causing damage if we fail our save. maybe that's the confusion because we shouldn't be taking tick damage.

actually nope - if u read it carefuly, only moment u get damage from quill is when removed wo heal check. if not removed they impose stackable penalty on skills, attack etc. so someone just made it dot by his own design. and its not very likely reflex based, cause as i remember correctly, im taking quills on toon w epic reflexes and high enough save to beat miior wo getting single stack. i dont believe the dc is set higher on lower lvl mob

heal would be skill to use to stop the damage (or other conventional method used for stopping bleeding damage, and its magical healing)

[Gauthaag]

Inflated HD we face that make Concentration skill checks worthless everywhere, minus the few and situational examples given - one being bugged, the quill dot.

If people are not using the vast amount of options available to deal with that situation, what good will one more option do?

There are many, many ways to not take damage while your preforming those class abilities, anyone can do as many of them as they have access to not to mention every other person in the party.

The only difference, IMO, is one way you need to deal with it, other way you can just skip it. Take the path of least resistance.

This is a band aid fix to a much larger problem.

u re right about problem with scaling damage which makes the skill almost useles on epic.

by simple numbers: DC is at base 10+ damage dealt (i dont know if ddo applies only half damage of dot spell or effect like PnP does)

so if u have say 15 for con (40) +20 from item and no ranks in concentration - it allows to continue casting/action safely if ure taking up to 25 dmg - we re speaking about epic lvls (i dont think u get +20s with lower ML or 40 con so easily), even without item it allows ignore damage up to 5. and ofc for each invested rank in concentration it grow in rate 1/1. and those are skill autosucces numbers, not mentioning the roll itsef

so u can see its not totally meaningless, it covers some amount of dmg, tho not as big to asure safe casting at epics, especially in epic elites. but surely its not only about ignoring 1 hitpoint dot. Anyway also keep in mind that usual door, lever, or rune timer is set for six seconds - so it would mean to complete such task without being interrupted it will take several rolls, with any failed meaning interrupt.

and until someone prove me wrong, i still believe, that if there is mechanism to check if action is being interrupted, it shouldnt be so hard add to this check opposing roll for concentration. we already have interruption check and we already have concentration check for casters. tho in model situation with caster and rogue facing locked door - one is allowed unlock them with concetration helping him not being interrupted, while other is not.

and from start its not intedned as band aid to solve concentration for casters or its inefficiency due to damage scaling. it was mentioned as an side isue, someone can look into while revamping concentration. if devs decide this suggestion is not worth it, it wont break the game. if they decide it make sense and woth sorce investment, it imho wont break game either.

and as u could see it would help everyone - its not giving advantage just to certain classes or type of gameplay. and if it helps zergers, whatever, they usually already have ways.

[Qhualor]

actually nope - if u read it carefuly, only moment u get damage from quill is when removed wo heal check. if not removed they impose stackable penalty on skills, attack etc. so someone just made it dot by his own design. and its very likely reflex based, cause as i remember correctly, im taking quills on toon w epic reflexes and high enough save to beat miior wo getting single stack. i dont believe the dc is set higher on lower lvl mob

heal would be skill to use to stop the damage (or other conventional method used for stopping bleeding damage, and its magical healing)

yeah I reread it for a 3rd time and it sunk in. not uncommon for things like this to be altered in DDO.

[Gremmlynn]

All this wanting to be changed all due some archer, quill, or some DOT.

Forcing Concentration checks on ROG and Arty sillks because some epic character cannot open a door or take the time to deal with an archer.

Forcing this on the majority so the solo player can have an easier time.

With all but a couple quests designed for a specific group size solo players know they may have a little bit of a more difficult time. Part of the accepted risk of solo play.How would this be forcing concentration checks on rogue skills when the only time they would happen is when, currently the skills would be interrupted anyway. You do know how concentration works don't you? They would only make a check if they take damage while using those skills. Currently they don't get a check and are automatically interrupted if they take damage while using those skills.

As far as soloing goes. Unless I'm grouping with a few players I know very well I know that I will be facing a more difficult time by grouping actually. Part of the accepted risk of pugging, or just running with those who have a different play style.

[Gremmlynn]

looks like you just outlined one aspect of the game that has been watered down so much that groups do not wait for trappers usually because traps are generally not threatening enough.Actually it was watered down so groups don't HAVE to wait for trappers. Likely because Turbine figured out they would retain more customers if those customers were actually playing the game rather than waiting on (hoping for) some other player to come along before they can do so.

[luvirini]

All this wanting to be changed all due some archer, quill, or some DOT.

Forcing Concentration checks on ROG and Arty sillks because some epic character cannot open a door or take the time to deal with an archer.

Forcing this on the majority so the solo player can have an easier time.

With all but a couple quests designed for a specific group size solo players know they may have a little bit of a more difficult time. Part of the accepted risk of solo play.

You also probably enjoy waiting to do things like recall out of quests after all enemies are dead but you have a 40 second dot on and such I guess. Not all of us do enjoy waiting for nothing.

[Qhualor]

Actually it was watered down so groups don't HAVE to wait for trappers. Likely because Turbine figured out they would retain more customers if those customers were actually playing the game rather than waiting on (hoping for) some other player to come along before they can do so.

Yeah that 5-10 seconds to search and disable a trap was a real came breaker for some. Patience has never been a very good skill to invest in.

[Hendrik]

u re right about problem with scaling damage which makes the skill almost useles on epic.

by simple numbers: DC is at base 10+ damage dealt (i dont know if ddo applies only half damage of dot spell or effect like PnP does)

so if u have say 15 for con (40) +20 from item and no ranks in concentration - it allows to continue casting/action safely if ure taking up to 25 dmg - we re speaking about epic lvls (i dont think u get +20s with lower ML or 40 con so easily), even without item it allows ignore damage up to 5. and ofc for each invested rank in concentration it grow in rate 1/1. and those are skill autosucces numbers, not mentioning the roll itsef

so u can see its not totally meaningless, it covers some amount of dmg, tho not as big to asure safe casting at epics, especially in epic elites. but surely its not only about ignoring 1 hitpoint dot. Anyway also keep in mind that usual door, lever, or rune timer is set for six seconds - so it would mean to complete such task without being interrupted it will take several rolls, with any failed meaning interrupt.

and until someone prove me wrong, i still believe, that if there is mechanism to check if action is being interrupted, it shouldnt be so hard add to this check opposing roll for concentration. we already have interruption check and we already have concentration check for casters. tho in model situation with caster and rogue facing locked door - one is allowed unlock them with concetration helping him not being interrupted, while other is not.

and from start its not intedned as band aid to solve concentration for casters or its inefficiency due to damage scaling. it was mentioned as an side isue, someone can look into while revamping concentration. if devs decide this suggestion is not worth it, it wont break the game. if they decide it make sense and woth sorce investment, it imho wont break game either.

and as u could see it would help everyone - its not giving advantage just to certain classes or type of gameplay. and if it helps zergers, whatever, they usually already have ways.


You can't Tumble without trained Ranks.

Can you Concentrate without trained ranks?

Really want to start swapping items in/out just to open frikken door, use a lever, a switch. Do you really want to start swapping items to use your skills? Talk about having to go through hoops.

If your solo in a quest designed for 4 or more people and are having issues with opening doors, with respect, I honestly say TS. You know it is designed for 4 or more and to go in with less you are going to have a harder time. That is what you sign on for for solo.

If your one of 4 in a Quest then use one of many abilities available to any one of the four to open it.

There is no need to rework skills to support solo play in quests designed for four or more.

Mean no disrespect with my views.

[Hendrik]

How would this be forcing concentration checks on rogue skills when the only time they would happen is when, currently the skills would be interrupted anyway. You do know how concentration works don't you? They would only make a check if they take damage while using those skills. Currently they don't get a check and are automatically interrupted if they take damage while using those skills.

As far as soloing goes. Unless I'm grouping with a few players I know very well I know that I will be facing a more difficult time by grouping actually. Part of the accepted risk of pugging, or just running with those who have a different play style.

Part of the accept risk of soloing quests designed for four or more is knowing that you will have a harder time.

Instead of accepting that risk this is to remove that risk and allow for that risk to be bypassed.

[Hendrik]

Yeah that 5-10 seconds to search and disable a trap was a real came breaker for some. Patience has never been a very good skill to invest in.

Those 5-10 seconds are causing maybe hundreds of lost xp!

[Chai]

Those 5-10 seconds are causing maybe hundreds of lost xp!

That extra minute it took to beat ringleader on elite could have been used farming ringleader on hard.

[Gremmlynn]

Yeah that 5-10 seconds to search and disable a trap was a real came breaker for some. Patience has never been a very good skill to invest in.It's the indeterminate amount of time waiting for the trapper to join the group, if one ever does, that is the issue. What you speak of is simply a side effect of solving the bigger issue of players not staying with a game they may or not be able to actually even play when they log in.

[Gremmlynn]

You can't Tumble without trained Ranks.

Can you Concentrate without trained ranks?

Really want to start swapping items in/out just to open frikken door, use a lever, a switch. Do you really want to start swapping items to use your skills? Talk about having to go through hoops.

If your solo in a quest designed for 4 or more people and are having issues with opening doors, with respect, I honestly say TS. You know it is designed for 4 or more and to go in with less you are going to have a harder time. That is what you sign on for for solo.

If your one of 4 in a Quest then use one of many abilities available to any one of the four to open it.

There is no need to rework skills to support solo play in quests designed for four or more.

Mean no disrespect with my views.You really aren't getting it are you. Nobody would ever HAVE to do any of those things, they would just have the option to do so if they wanted better functionality than they currently have.

Now: Go to open a door, door opens. Go to open a door and archer shoots you, door doesn't open.

With what is being proposed: Go to open door, door opens. Go to open door and archer shoots you, door opens if concentration check vs damage taken is made, door doesn't open if check fails.

Same for all those other things you mentioned.

As far as quests designed for four players goes. That's just a poor business model because Turbine HAS to have people want to spend money on the game for them to even keep the game around and there is no way the can guarantee there will be the three other customers available for the game to work within that design parameter whenever one chooses to play. Much better to design it to work right regardless of how many are available at any time.

[Gremmlynn]

Part of the accept risk of soloing quests designed for four or more is knowing that you will have a harder time.

Instead of accepting that risk this is to remove that risk and allow for that risk to be bypassed.No, this is calling that whole concept poor design. You assume that people solo because they prefer to solo here, when it could as well be people soloing because nobody from their guild happens to be in the right level range or, if they find pugging to be an acceptable way to play, because nobody hits their LFM in what they consider to be an acceptable length of time.

With your premise the only other option in that situation is to simply find something other than DDO to do. Customers generally don't spend a lot on products they don't use.

[Qhualor]

It's the indeterminate amount of time waiting for the trapper to join the group, if one ever does, that is the issue. What you speak of is simply a side effect of solving the bigger issue of players not staying with a game they may or not be able to actually even play when they log in.

You seen how many trappers there are these days? 3/4 of groups I join have a trapper build even if its not their main focus.

Back in those old days it was rare to experience waiting more than 5 minutes for a particular role. By the time people gathered to the quest, usually group was full. The problem was some wanted people hitting their lfm naow when the focus was about just having fun in a social game. People were buying xp pots and felt like they were wasting them waiting 10 seconds. Some used little time to play and lacked patience or forgot DDO was centered around having a good time. People grumbled and rage quit if a trapper blew a box.

[Chai]

As far as quests designed for four players goes. That's just a poor business model because Turbine HAS to have people want to spend money on the game for them to even keep the game around and there is no way the can guarantee there will be the three other customers available for the game to work within that design parameter whenever one chooses to play. Much better to design it to work right regardless of how many are available at any time.

For MMOs, solo and group play are both valid. Prioritizing solo over group play is a mistake however. Incentivizing solo over group play through scaling adds to that mistake.

Designing quests for group play is a sound business model in an MMO. Allowing solo play is sound. Incentivizing group play is sound.

Incentivizing solo play at the cost of group play by making PUGing a gamble due to added scaling is a faulty business model.

Demanding the hardest difficulty be soloable with no chance of failure is a faulty business model. Delivering easy buttons for free due to entitlement based arguments is a faulty business model.

Elite difficulty, the toughest difficulty in the game, being the default zerg plow xp farm difficulty, is a faulty business model in a game where a large portion of the income of that business model is based in charging players to bypass playing through content.

[Gremmlynn]

You seen how many trappers there are these days? 3/4 of groups I join have a trapper build even if its not their main focus.

Back in those old days it was rare to experience waiting more than 5 minutes for a particular role. By the time people gathered to the quest, usually group was full. The problem was some wanted people hitting their lfm naow when the focus was about just having fun in a social game. People were buying xp pots and felt like they were wasting them waiting 10 seconds. Some used little time to play and lacked patience or forgot DDO was centered around having a good time. People grumbled and rage quit if a trapper blew a box.No, your focus was just having fun in a social game and even that follows your definition of what is fun in a social game. Just that chops the potential customer base down twice.

[Gremmlynn]

For MMOs, solo and group play are both valid. Prioritizing solo over group play is a mistake however. Incentivizing solo over group play through scaling adds to that mistake.

Designing quests for group play is a sound business model in an MMO. Allowing solo play is sound. Incentivizing group play is sound.

Incentivizing solo play at the cost of group play by making PUGing a gamble due to added scaling is a faulty business model.

Demanding the hardest difficulty be soloable with no chance of failure is a faulty business model. Delivering easy buttons for free due to entitlement based arguments is a faulty business model.

Elite difficulty, the toughest difficulty in the game, being the default zerg plow xp farm difficulty, is a faulty business model in a game where a large portion of the income of that business model is based in charging players to bypass playing through content.I wont disagree with most of what you say. Scaling should be looked at to try to tweak it to be group neutral. Games should try to provide content for both types of play with similar opportunities for each.

One of DDOs weaknesses with this was making so much of their content quest content and putting the limits they did on the rest (just wilderness areas, pretty much). This lead to them needing to go to that group oriented content to provide the solo opportunity as there was nowhere else to go.

[Buddha5440]

/signed, although you can just hop on top of some levers to pull it and you will almost never get hit.

Still, when zerging this slows me down more than anything. Concentration checks would be great.

Great idea, let's change the game so it makes it easier to ZERG.......Um...NO.
I do like the idea of concentration checks for levers and such. It is a bit absurd that you can manage the intricacies of spell casting while being hit but can't pull a simple lever(which would happen naturally from muscle contraction from being hit while your hand was grasping a lever).

[Hendrik]

That extra minute it took to beat ringleader on elite could have been used farming ringleader on hard.

There are lower difficulties then Elite?

Now I know for sure you are insane Chai.

;)

Nope, no doubt now.

Total fruit loops.

[Hendrik]

You really aren't getting it are you. Nobody would ever HAVE to do any of those things, they would just have the option to do so if they wanted better functionality than they currently have.

Now: Go to open a door, door opens. Go to open a door and archer shoots you, door doesn't open.

With what is being proposed: Go to open door, door opens. Go to open door and archer shoots you, door opens if concentration check vs damage taken is made, door doesn't open if check fails.

Same for all those other things you mentioned.

As far as quests designed for four players goes. That's just a poor business model because Turbine HAS to have people want to spend money on the game for them to even keep the game around and there is no way the can guarantee there will be the three other customers available for the game to work within that design parameter whenever one chooses to play. Much better to design it to work right regardless of how many are available at any time.

You missed the vital part where if you cannot open the door you use any one of the many abilities at your disposal to deal with the threat. Any one of the other party?

With respect, you just don't want to deal with the threat, you want a way to bypass it.

[Hendrik]

No, this is calling that whole concept poor design. You assume that people solo because they prefer to solo here, when it could as well be people soloing because nobody from their guild happens to be in the right level range or, if they find pugging to be an acceptable way to play, because nobody hits their LFM in what they consider to be an acceptable length of time.

With your premise the only other option in that situation is to simply find something other than DDO to do. Customers generally don't spend a lot on products they don't use.

Only option? There are a great deal of options open to the player and party. They are being ignored in favor of just running by the threat.

Seem to keep skipping the part where players wont use any of the vast amount of options to deal with the threat.

If this is such poor design, why in nearly 9 years this is the first time it has come up in memory?

I can tell you, but won't like the answer.

Solo focus in a MMO.

I respect your views that you want to skip over what is attacking you to get to the end of the quest. I get that. I just oppose it.

[bartharok]

You missed the vital part where if you cannot open the door you use any one of the many abilities at your disposal to deal with the threat. Any one of the other party?

With respect, you just don't want to deal with the threat, you want a way to bypass it.

Or just a way to open a door when your life depends on it. Like the door to a shrine, with your backpack full of stones and mobs hitting you for 10-20, which ordinarily isnt that bad, but when you have 50 left it can be deadly.