What is a "champion" supposed to be?

[redoubt]

I my head, a champion more than a better version of a random mob. It is an experienced, battle hardened leader amongst a group of mobs. Some level of intelligence is required to attain this (to me anyway.)

I'm not trying to make champions any easier, I'd just like them to make more sense. For example, I don't think mindless things like oozes or zombies should be champions. I'm even on the fence about animals being champions. A gnoll is an intelligent race and could have champions on the flip side, while a wolf has some intelligence, I'm on the fence about them being champions.

What do you think?

[bsquishwizzy]

I my head, a champion more than a better version of a random mob. It is an experienced, battle hardened leader amongst a group of mobs. Some level of intelligence is required to attain this (to me anyway.)

I'm not trying to make champions any easier, I'd just like them to make more sense. For example, I don't think mindless things like oozes or zombies should be champions. I'm even on the fence about animals being champions. A gnoll is an intelligent race and could have champions on the flip side, while a wolf has some intelligence, I'm on the fence about them being champions.

What do you think?

Oozes especially.

I was soling one of the Depths quests in House D with my ranger, and I came across a champion mob. Arrows cause some oozes to split, and when a champion ooze splits, is sometimes begets other champion oozes. I about 3 seconds I had a Red DA because of the CR of the champion ooze, and the number of little oozes it spawned.

I mean, it was hysterical in a way, but I could see this being a problem.

[Aelonwy]

I agree. I would like some mobs to be excluded from the Champion code. Most notably mindless creatures. Then again I'm against creatures like rats, bats, wolves, etc being epic; that is an individual orange named wolf could possibly be epic but a pack of 20k hp wolves just makes me face palm.

[Monkey-Boy]

A bad idea :)

They're dumb, quests already have bosses.

[Severlin]

Even mindless creatures can find/absorb/be empowered by one of these Mysterious Remnants.

Sev~

[Qhualor]

Even mindless creatures can find/absorb/be empowered by one of these Mysterious Remnants.

Sev~

that's the beauty of D&D. imagination makes anything possible.

[Oxarhamar]

Even mindless creatures can find/absorb/be empowered by one of these Mysterious Remnants.

Sev~

As much as I dislike the HP bloat Champs I find the champion Oozes to be fun. Oozes were once dangerous good to see them have a chance to be again.

Now to get some interesting rewards?

[Braegan]

Honest question to those that find certain mobs inappropriate to be champions...

When you enter a harbor quest on normal and an ooze is CR2, but on hard a CR4 and on elite a CR6 does that bother you as well?

[axel15810]

Even mindless creatures can find/absorb/be empowered by one of these Mysterious Remnants.

Sev~

Makes sense to me. That's the gist I got from the Producer's Letter as well.

I love the game-wide storylines. Seems like it has been a while.

[phillymiket]

They are like your Mob All-Pro players.

All mobs start out as Yellow-name in the Mob Draft.

Depending on how they do in the Minion Combine (and also with their injury report and interview) they are assigned Champion Status or not.

If a Champion performs poorly, like a Death Warded Undead, or a Fire Elemental with Fire Absorption, they are demoted to the Yellow team for future spawns.

If they do very well, like out-perform the boss, they can be promoted to Red Name or even Purple Name.

That is assuming the quest is still under the salary cap.

The actual contract terms are complicated, maybe someone could better explain them than me.

[Aelonwy]

Honest question to those that find certain mobs inappropriate to be champions...

When you enter a harbor quest on normal and an ooze is CR2, but on hard a CR4 and on elite a CR6 does that bother you as well?

Not particularly but then if you look in an actual monster manual under the heading Advancement there is often information for a creature to be a range of CRs, the range is often small but there is the possibility for an above average creature. But an above average rat is unlikely to ever have 20k hp and deal damage like an average dragon (some hyperbole), which is what you sometimes see in epics and makes me just shake my head. There is a point at which some creatures should no longer be buffed/boosted/empowered and should instead be replaced by appropriate level monsters to encounter. If the quest absolutely calls for these low level creatures leave them low level fodder, maybe make them run from the awesome power of the epic player, or have a named creature some particular example that by weird circumstance has managed to become epic. But not a pack of them around every corner, that's ridiculous.

[SirValentine]

Even mindless creatures can find/absorb/be empowered by one of these Mysterious Remnants.




As characters investigate the source of this newfound strength they will begin to discover that many of these creatures carry Mysterious Remnants that seem to resonate with strange magical power. Could these remnants be causing these champions and their rise in power?


So after we've investigated this source, and defeated it in some yet-unmentioned end-game raid, does that mean champions will go away?

[bartosy]

A champion is a monster That all THE other monsters aspire to be !

IT's THE one who the kobold mommies tell their little kobold kids About when they're
Ready to sleep. About THE grand tales of THE legendary bloodletter and his elite guard.
Or when they naughty they tell About huge ogres who are comming to get them with golden crowns who use kobolds
as target practice or throwing objects !

Champions from a monsters standpoint are admired and Feared. It's the highest one can achieve
For a monster in turbines random dice game.

In short champions are awesome !

[Braegan]

Not particularly but then if you look in an actual monster manual under the heading Advancement there is often information for a creature to be a range of CRs, the range is often small but there is the possibility for an above average creature. But an above average rat is unlikely to ever have 20k hp and deal damage like an average dragon (some hyperbole), which is what you sometimes see in epics and makes me just shake my head. There is a point at which some creatures should no longer be buffed/boosted/empowered and should instead be replaced by appropriate level monsters to encounter. If the quest absolutely calls for these low level creatures leave them low level fodder, maybe make them run from the awesome power of the epic player, or have a named creature some particular example that by weird circumstance has managed to become epic. But not a pack of them around every corner, that's ridiculous.

I hear ya. Some of that was taking the MM and expanding it into an MMO tho. That is basically everywhere in game. Some of the mob stats remain but HP and Damage were inflated to deal with real time MMO speed. And then altered and tweaked a few more times.

Replacing mobs of a higher level would be more believable for sure. But, a good chunk of that is when old quests get made epic. Not all, but a good amount.

All in all sometimes, you just need to let go and enjoy it. Seriously I could believe a 20k uber rat from the Nine Hells more than I could a Fire Elemental dropping an Epic Scroll. I mean scrolls are made of paper right? Where did this Fire Ele hide it? :)

[Rykka]

Even mindless creatures can find/absorb/be empowered by one of these Mysterious Remnants.

Sev~

Well that just raises the question, what are Mysterious Remnants? Did you make some lore/ backstory about the blood of a slain god raining down and making champions? I mean I like em and all,but I like fluff too.

[Tyrande]

Even mindless creatures can find/absorb/be empowered by one of these Mysterious Remnants.

Sev~

Heh, I love undead zombie champions. They gave me a +5 Charisma tome tonight.
Guess the gods thought I need more Charisma...

[dunklezhan]

Even mindless creatures can find/absorb/be empowered by one of these Mysterious Remnants.

Sev~

Just want to take a moment to say: I really appreciate that you're trying to wrap some lore around champions. Teases like this are kinda awesome too.

However, the crown is silly. Please make it less silly.

How about a purple and gold flame flickering over their heads or something? Or a new kind of visible aura - like flame/cold aura etc but new animations to make it all spiky straight lines instead of flames, pulsing in and out weirdly. Something that looks its being generated by these fragments but doesn't, by some extreme cosmic co-incidence, happen to look exactly like a what sentient beings would call a crown. A crown represents law and order as well as 'power' - and these fragments seem kinda chaotic to me in terms of their general randomness.

[Samir_Bennal]

that's the beauty of D&D. imagination makes anything possible.


One perfect wife coming up.

[Warrax23]

Even mindless creatures can find/absorb/be empowered by one of these Mysterious Remnants.

Sev~


Yes it could, however it would change the whole balance of the quest. IE monsters who are stronger become bosses or mini bosses, so there would be a power struggle in the quest itself before we even get there. You guys fail to realize that some of these champions are WAY more powerful then the red named/purple named mobs. *Being more powerful does not mean harder to deal with* but it's just another stupid speed bump that we have to deal with. It's not fun, nor amusing. I don't like getting 1-2 shotted by a trash mob. Champions are a rip off from a different game that has no place in this one. A champion would take power in any quest they are in and become the boss. You guys don't actually play this game so you fail to see what is good and what isn't good or fun. I'm sure some people really enjoy champions, maybe send out a real survey and find out the real numbers, because every single person I run with hates them, me included. I play this game to have fun, not worry about how a champion ooze is going to ruin the day. I've left this game before over ignorant choices that turbine has came up with, I will not hesitate to leave again. So you may want to get in touch with the people who are paying you and ACTUALLY listen.

Have a good day,
Markeen

[HuneyMunster]

The other day we had a champion Worg in the maze in the Tomb of the Tormented. It had over 500hp and 2 damage buffs that made it extremely hard to kill with a rat due to it only taking 10dmg b4 the rat was killed. Due to the Worg positioning there was no way to trap the Worg behind any doors to safely guide the rat through. Someone had to leave part to switch to a caster to use sonic blast so we didn't have to either reset or spend an hour on 1 maze.

[Ancient]

The actual contract terms are complicated, maybe someone could better explain them than me.

The mobs that kill enough adventurers get a free trip to mobby fatespinner and get to pick from a mob set of epic destinies. They are currently cheating and using them in heroic levels. Even worse, some of the mobs are using a dupe bug on their mysterious fragments.

[AlmGhandi]

Champions are a breath of fresh air in my mother's basement.

[Severlin]

Well that just raises the question, what are Mysterious Remnants? Did you make some lore/ backstory about the blood of a slain god raining down and making champions? I mean I like em and all,but I like fluff too.

Those are great questions that I am definitely not going to answer and spoil the ongoing storyline.

Sev~

[Monkey-Boy]

Those are great questions that I am definitely not going to answer and spoil the ongoing storyline.

Sev~

Were you once a writer on "Lost"? :)

[phillymiket]

Those are great questions that I am definitely not going to answer and spoil the ongoing storyline.

Sev~

Nice try but you already gave everything away in the Podcast.
If you read between the line you can tell exactly what's going to happen.
Could you have been more obvious?
"The secret lies with Charlotte"?, "Promise me, Ned. Promise."?
I mean come on... Danny is wearing a sweater with a frickin' picture of the Apollo 11 rocket right on the front!

It's totally obvious we have been on Earth the whole time. Why else would all the Ape Men speak English?






Oh btw, ***Spoiler Alert*** Don't read the stuff above if you don't want to know how Mysterious Remnants turn out.

[Rys]

Were you once a writer on "Lost"? :)

^^

[Tesrali]

Those are great questions that I am definitely not going to answer and spoil the ongoing storyline.

Sev~

+1

[Connman]

It's totally obvious we have been on Earth the whole time. Why else would all the Ape Men speak English?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvuM3DjvYf0

i have ran into quite a bit of stuff in this game that is pre-destroyed.

[Braegan]

Oh btw, ***Spoiler Alert*** Don't read the stuff above if you don't want to know how Mysterious Remnants turn out.

Lol!

Grr! Must spread the rep around before you get more.

Virtual +1 man!

[patang01]

Even mindless creatures can find/absorb/be empowered by one of these Mysterious Remnants.

Sev~

Like barrels and crates in a ward trap?

Seriously. Seeing a black pudding with the burgerking crown above it makes my heart bleed. It's just awful, arbitrary and silly.

[bartharok]

Like barrels and crates in a ward trap?

Seriously. Seeing a black pudding with the burgerking crown above it makes my heart bleed. It's just awful, arbitrary and silly.

Just in your mind.