Druid Wolf Automatic Doublestrike Attack Progression

[warioman91]

So has anybody else noticed that the Wolf form automatically double strikes through the attack animation progression?
Most people probably don't notice it cuz you think the 30% attack speed is doing it, or that you already have quite a lump of double strike on your build and just think "this is working great".

[Eth]

It's not doublestrike but off-hand attacks that gives you those extra attacks.
It's a bug and well known. Appearantly the devs can't fix it.

[warioman91]

It's not doublestrike but off-hand attacks that gives you those extra attacks.
It's a bug and well known. Appearantly the devs can't fix it.

I thought that off-hand attacks didn't work in animal form?
Or that with a shield equipped...you can't offhand.

the thing though is not every attack in the wolf progression of attacks will proc the double, it's specific ones.

Weird bug if the extra attack comes from a "ghostly" lol offhand

[Eth]

I thought that off-hand attacks didn't work in animal form?
Or that with a shield equipped...you can't offhand.


Well they shouldn't, but they do, that's why it's a bug. ;)
If you have GTWF you get 80% offhand attacks, completely independant of the combat style you actually do (e.g. Sword and Board) when going into wolf form.

That's one reason why they made some combat styles exclusive with TWF.

[warioman91]

Well they shouldn't, but they do, that's why it's a bug. ;)
If you have GTWF you get 80% offhand attacks, completely independant of the combat style you actually do (e.g. Sword and Board) when going into wolf form.

That's one reason why they made some combat styles exclusive with TWF.

So can you get like 4 attacks(due to more bugging) out of one hit then with some luck and enough real doublestrike chance?(I'm gonna guess no)

Your main hand hits, your *offhand* main hand also hits. Each of those could be main hand attacks and could both dblstrike. Again, I'm doubting that lol.

[Eth]

So can you get like 4 attacks(due to more bugging) out of one hit then with some luck and enough real doublestrike chance?(I'm gonna guess no)

Your main hand hits, your *offhand* main hand also hits. Each of those could be main hand attacks and could both dblstrike. Again, I'm doubting that lol.

Completely ignoring wolf form, because it doesn't have to do much with that - yes, you can get 4 hits within 1 attack.
1 mainhand
1 offhand
1 mainhand doublestrike
1 offhand doublestrike

Offhand doublestrike has extremely limited sources though.
One being the epic destiny feat perfect TWF, which gives 10% offhand doublestrike, the other being the level 20 tempest capstone, which gives 25% offhand doublestrike.


In wolf form - I don't know if it works the way you say. You could easily test it by attacking the training dummy slowly and look if there is any attack that produces 4 hits.
I would think it still uses doublestrike only for the mainhand. The offhand attack, even though bugged, is still a 'real' offhand attack and a doublestrike for that would need an actual offhand doublestrike source.

In winter-wolf form it pretty much works similar to how handwraps work for monks, your mainhand and offhand get all the benefits that are on your mainhand weapon, which might lead you to believe both are mainhand attacks, but they are not.

[warioman91]

And melee attack abilities will proc on offhand as well? I don't mean tactical abilities, but like Barb's Cruel Cut(Does 3d6 CON damage if you hit target, 30 sec cd) or something?

[Eth]

And melee attack abilities will proc on offhand as well? I don't mean tactical abilities, but like Barb's Cruel Cut(Does 3d6 CON damage if you hit target, 30 sec cd) or something?

Depends...
Things that don't proc offhand are usually cleave like attacks:
Cleave, Great Cleave, Momentum Swing, Lay Waste, Strike Down

Abilities that do a normal swing animation usually also proc offhand attacks -
for example sunder, smite, growing storm, anvil of thunder, smite foe etc.
I haven't played a barbarian, I don't know what the animation for cruel cut looks like.

[warioman91]

One last question, does this occur in bear form as well?

[Eth]

One last question, does this occur in bear form as well?

Only winter-wolf.

[warioman91]

Only winter-wolf.

not to be snide, but regular wolf as well(which is where i was noticing this damage happening since im only lvl 3 druid atm).

Thanks though for all the info, it's interesting cuz ya does make me reconsider my build and what not
Makes it pretty clear that double strike would be less important if you had been intending to take natural fighting feats. +6% dbl strike or +20% offhand chance

For the record i am multiclassing as a barb with that CON damage ability, and ya it kept proc'ing twice on targets inexplicably(which lead me here to ask about it) cuz I was pillaging things with that ability(doing 20+ CON dmg with the extra hit occuring).

I just made a lvl 4 barb and put that ability on it too and duel wielded and the ability was indeed proc'ing for both weapons.

[Eth]

not to be snide, but regular wolf as well(which is where i was noticing this damage happening since im only lvl 3 druid atm).

I'm really not an expert on druids, I only ever tested it myself on lammania once and tried a couple of different builds with it, but from the people I asked, everyone said you need winter-wolf, hence minimum level 9 in druid.



Thanks though for all the info, it's interesting cuz ya does make me reconsider my build and what not.


If you plan to take an improved critical feat later (which you really should), make sure to take Improved Critical: Bludgeoning. That's the only one that increases your critical hit range in wolf form (it doesn't matter what weapon you are actually using).

[warioman91]

I'm really not an expert on druids, I only ever tested it myself on lammania once and tried a couple of different builds with it, but from the people I asked, everyone said you need winter-wolf, hence minimum level 9 in druid.



If you plan to take an improved critical feat later (which you really should), make sure to take Improved Critical: Bludgeoning. That's the only one that increases your critical hit range in wolf form (it doesn't matter what weapon you are actually using).


Ya, build was already utilizing that one. It doubles the threat range which is by default 19-20 in wolf. So it becomes 17-20?


Edit:uh nevermind crit multiplier for wolf is x3, i thought u could put a weapon on with x4 and be all like BOOM

[Eth]

Edit:uh nevermind crit multiplier for wolf is x3, i thought u could put a weapon on with x4 and be all like BOOM

Yap, but hey, the good thing is you can also use commonly inferior base type weapons (poor crit. range, x2). It really doesn't matter.

[warioman91]

Yap, but hey, the good thing is you can also use commonly inferior base type weapons (poor crit. range, x2). It really doesn't matter.

will overwhelming crit apply to wolf form though?

[unbongwah]

will overwhelming crit apply to wolf form though?
OC applies to all combat styles, inc. wolves. FYI, so does Devastating Crit and it will stack with OC.

If you're interested in a druid / barb wolf build, I posted this build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454311-Request-Bear-Tank-build?p=5511371&viewfull=1#post5511371) recently. Requester wanted a bear tank, but it's an easy tweak to make it a wolf-based build instead.

I also attempt to run down what does and doesn't work with wolf builds here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/452980-Getting-back-into-my-pure-druid?p=5491904&viewfull=1#post5491904). tl;dr summary:

Natural Fighting: +6% doublestrike per feat; stacks with all other feats & sources of doublestrike; the only one we know for sure is WAI.
TWF: applies to wolf builds, regardless of equipped gear. Even if you take no TWF feats, you still get the base 20% offhand chance. Confirmed as not WAI; still not fixed.
Shield Mastery: doublestrike & PRR bonuses apply; Intim bonus does not. [Haven't tested Vanguard.]
SWF: atk speed bonus applies; +50% dmg mod bonus does not.
Monk stances: all bonuses apply to wolf builds, AFAIK, inc. Master/GM Earth stance crit & PRR bonuses. I think this includes Shintao's Deft Strikes, but not sure how to confirm that. Can use Stunning Fist even if you have a ki weapon instead of handwraps equipped.
Crit range bonuses: Swashbuckling and Pulverizer don't apply to wolf form (WAI). Keen Edge is supposed to apply (Druidic Weapons or Martial Arts focus), but I think it's still bugged, unfortunately. Does Violence Begets Violence work with wolf form? EDIT: not sure if Ravager Crit Rage applies to wolves.
+[W] modifiers: bonuses to weapons do not apply, except for the +0.5/+1[W] bonus from Shillelagh which will carry over to wolf form if you have a wooden club or staff equipped. So will the +[W] modifiers to unarmed combat from monk lvls if centered; I think GMoF bonuses also apply, but haven't tested to confirm. Not sure if Shillelagh + monk bonuses stack.


. . . that actually is a lot longer than I intended. So much for my "tl;dr summaries!"

So until the TWF bugs are fixed, I think the highest-DPS wolf builds will exploit TWF+SWF. TWF and SWF feats are anti-requisites; so currently the only way to have both TWF and SWF feat chains is to take a rgr 2+ splash [I]after you take the SWF feat.

[warioman91]

OC applies to all combat styles, inc. wolves. FYI, so does Devastating Crit and it will stack with OC.

If you're interested in a druid / barb wolf build, I posted this build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454311-Request-Bear-Tank-build?p=5511371&viewfull=1#post5511371) recently. Requester wanted a bear tank, but it's an easy tweak to make it a wolf-based build instead.

I also attempt to run down what does and doesn't work with wolf builds here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/452980-Getting-back-into-my-pure-druid?p=5491904&viewfull=1#post5491904). tl;dr summary:

Natural Fighting: +6% doublestrike per feat; stacks with all other feats & sources of doublestrike; the only one we know for sure is WAI.
TWF: applies to wolf builds, regardless of equipped gear. Even if you take no TWF feats, you still get the base 20% offhand chance. Confirmed as not WAI; still not fixed.
Shield Mastery: doublestrike & PRR bonuses apply; Intim bonus does not. [Haven't tested Vanguard.]
SWF: atk speed bonus applies; +50% dmg mod bonus does not.
Monk stances: all bonuses apply to wolf builds, AFAIK, inc. Master/GM Earth stance crit & PRR bonuses. I think this includes Shintao's Deft Strikes, but not sure how to confirm that. Can use Stunning Fist even if you have a ki weapon instead of handwraps equipped.
Crit range bonuses: Swashbuckling and Pulverizer don't apply to wolf form (WAI). Keen Edge is supposed to apply (Druidic Weapons or Martial Arts focus), but I think it's still bugged, unfortunately. Does Violence Begets Violence work with wolf form? EDIT: not sure if Ravager Crit Rage applies to wolves.
+[W] modifiers: bonuses to weapons do not apply, except for the +0.5/+1[W] bonus from Shillelagh which will carry over to wolf form if you have a wooden club or staff equipped. So will the +[W] modifiers to unarmed combat from monk lvls if centered; I think GMoF bonuses also apply, but haven't tested to confirm. Not sure if Shillelagh + monk bonuses stack.


. . . that actually is a lot longer than I intended. So much for my "tl;dr summaries!"

So until the TWF bugs are fixed, I think the highest-DPS wolf builds will exploit TWF+SWF. TWF and SWF feats are anti-requisites; so currently the only way to have both TWF and SWF feat chains is to take a rgr 2+ splash [I]after you take the SWF feat.


Ha, funny thing is I was making a Bear/Barb/Wiz tank(slightly different than your build)....i'm newish so I've been wanting to tier 5 EK tree with tenser's and EK shield just to see it in action(and im only going to lvl 20 to get a couple TRs in for 36 pt builds).

But after finding this stuff out about the wolf, I already had decided to wolf instead of bear, while still keeping a good amount of tanky stuff and using a tower shield lol. And seeing your post here only confirms my choice to switch.

8Druid/6Barb/6Wiz is how I'm doing it, taking the TWF feats, skipping the natural fighting(so not taking lvl 9 druid), chose to put the extra lvl in Wiz to get the slight increase to elemental damage on the spellsword that comes with lvl 6.

Then after this life, and assuming this is still bugged, gonna do the druid/monk/fighter 9/9/2 build.