Best CON drain epic melee?

[Saekee]

Update 1/17/2015: see post #13 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454658-Best-CON-drain-epic-melee?p=5518212&viewfull=1#post5518212). Both weapon styles are almost identical but further responses put SWF slightly ahead and works more synergistically with the level splits.


Due to this patch:
The chance for epic monsters to ignore ability score damage has been reduced from 90% down to 33% on Epic Hard and 50% on Epic Elite. This chance remains zero percent on Epic Casual and Epic Normal.

This has made me wonder if a stat-draining melee is viable (yet another flavor build). I was thinking about what gear and enhancements drain CON (I know that rogues and ninjas can sap a little STR on sneak attacks but that is less interesting than CON draining).

Enhancements:

Shroud of Wraith, PM- 1d6 on critical melee hits
Barbarian Ravager Cruel cut - 3d6 on damage; ? cooldown
Rogue heartseeker poison, 1d6 on crit, 6 sec cooldown



Epic Destinies
- primal avatar of nature does a small amount

Gear

Wounding of puncturing on a weapon with a high crit range, like a rapier
epic Sting (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Sting) (short sword with wounding of puncturing plus another 1d4 on critical hits) plus nice base damage
Greater Vulkoor's Poison - 2-10 Con on vorpal 'with save' (which means useless? May land if a FORT save if it gets help from other sources)



Anything else that is significant? (There are weapons with 'wounding' on them, Cormyrian prefixes and suffixes, etc. Looking for something that is 'standout.') So far the obvious build would be a TWF shroud of wraith wielding WoP (or grindy two eStings) with tier 5 kensei (so 12 wiz/8 fighter) in Divine Crusader OR wraith form with Barb splash.
This is looking a lot like my thoughts on the best neg level drainer.

[CThruTheEgo]

epic Sting (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Sting) (short sword with wounding of puncturing plus another 1d4 on critical hits) plus nice base damage

Swashbuckler stance adds +1 to the threat range of shortsword (+2 with imp crit). Then there's exploit weakness which means more crits. So 12wiz/5bard/2barb +1 level in any of those (bard 6 grants 1 more doublestrike from swashbuckler core 3), run in divine crusader for more crit range and doublestrike from zeal of the righteous. Altogether, that might beat a twf option.

[Saekee]

Swashbuckler stance adds +1 to the threat range of shortsword (+2 with imp crit). Then there's exploit weakness which means more crits. So 12wiz/5bard/2barb +1 level in any of those (bard 6 grants 1 more doublestrike from swashbuckler core 3), run in divine crusader for more crit range and doublestrike from zeal of the righteous. Altogether, that might beat a twf option.

hi CThruTheEgo, that sounds very exciting--do you know the cooldown of Cruel cut? Also, I remember someone once making the calculations for exploit weakness as a bonus to critical threat range--do you remember the actual percentage? Then I can calculate it out.

The basic TWF option is easier to make:
On 20 attacks, 19 hits plus with a WoP rapier with IC: Piercing, Tier 5 Kensei and in DC (11-20 crit range) means 10 critical hits for 2d6 CON (Puncturing plus Wraith form, averages out to 7) plus 19 (for basic wounding)= 89 CON damage mainhand hit total.
Add 10% doublestrike and PTWF for another 5= 102.35
Offhand gets .8 plus 10% PTWF for .88; 88x.89=78.32 offhand CON damage. In total, this means one gets 180/20 attacks or about 9 CON damage per hit.

[ddorimble]

Swashbuckler stance adds +1 to the threat range of shortsword (+2 with imp crit). Then there's exploit weakness which means more crits. So 12wiz/5bard/2barb +1 level in any of those (bard 6 grants 1 more doublestrike from swashbuckler core 3), run in divine crusader for more crit range and doublestrike from zeal of the righteous. Altogether, that might beat a twf option.

Yeah, something with a 12 Wiz / 3 Bard base is definitely the way to go in my opinion. I'm not sure I'd care too much about Barb...when I did this, I was 12 Wiz / 4 Bard / 4 Rogue...Killer is a wicked expensive Enhancement to get, but when you get it fired up to +20% Doublestrike and you end up at 60+% Doublestrike, things get pretty nasty...and you can pick up Heartseeker Poison along the way. Stand in a Cloudkill for big fights for another slowly ticking away 1-2 Con damage.

[Saekee]

Yeah, something with a 12 Wiz / 3 Bard base is definitely the way to go in my opinion. I'm not sure I'd care too much about Barb...when I did this, I was 12 Wiz / 4 Bard / 4 Rogue...Killer is a wicked expensive Enhancement to get, but when you get it fired up to +20% Doublestrike and you end up at 60+% Doublestrike, things get pretty nasty...and you can pick up Heartseeker Poison along the way.

It could be but I think it really comes down to the cooldown of cruel cut. PSWF is great for vorpal effects but I am not so sure it can catch up with TWF for weapon effects like WoP.

[ddorimble]

It could be but I think it really comes down to the cooldown of cruel cut. PSWF is great for vorpal effects but I am not so sure it can catch up with TWF for weapon effects like WoP.

If you want Keen Edge as mentioned in your earlier math post, that requires 8 Fighter, so 12 Wiz / 8 Fighter, so no Barbarian there. Swashbuckler is the poor mans Keen Edge, heh...it really depends on the weapons you'll use. It doesn't do anything to enable more Con-draininess on Rapiers, those just go from x2 to x3, but it would beef up Epic Sting. Like you said, I guess it depends on the cooldowns...if Cruel Cut sucks, maybe 12 Wiz / 8 Fighter is the way to go. Does Keen Edge ultimately end up giving you two crit range? I've never taken it...there's probably no Con-drainy clicky on any class that could make up for that...not to mention crit range is always useful, and Con drain clicky often goes useless (orange/red nameds).

[gwonbush]

Cruel Cut is a barbarian attack that isn't Supreme Cleave. As such, it has a terrible cooldown (30 seconds).

[CThruTheEgo]

hi CThruTheEgo, that sounds very exciting--do you know the cooldown of Cruel cut? Also, I remember someone once making the calculations for exploit weakness as a bonus to critical threat range--do you remember the actual percentage? Then I can calculate it out.

I don't know the cooldown of cruel cut. I also do not know the math of exploit weakness. I remember seeing it but didn't follow it all. I estimate it to be somewhere between 10-20% more crits. I know the Count crits at least half the time, but that includes the bonus from divine crusader as well.

[gwonbush]

Depending on your crit range, Exploit weakness ranges from slightly better to slightly worse than a +1 increase to your crit range (+2 with IC).

[legendkilleroll]

Sacrificial dagger from ID can come with virulent constitution poison, neg levels too and ofc can be used as swashbuckler.

[Saekee]

If you want Keen Edge as mentioned in your earlier math post, that requires 8 Fighter, so 12 Wiz / 8 Fighter, so no Barbarian there. Swashbuckler is the poor mans Keen Edge, heh...it really depends on the weapons you'll use. It doesn't do anything to enable more Con-draininess on Rapiers, those just go from x2 to x3, but it would beef up Epic Sting. Like you said, I guess it depends on the cooldowns...if Cruel Cut sucks, maybe 12 Wiz / 8 Fighter is the way to go. Does Keen Edge ultimately end up giving you two crit range? I've never taken it...there's probably no Con-drainy clicky on any class that could make up for that...not to mention crit range is always useful, and Con drain clicky often goes useless (orange/red nameds).
hi ddorimble, thx, I agree with you here. Plus clickies would run out like you say even if they existed (and would have a lousy DC--I have had some poison ones)


Cruel Cut is a barbarian attack that isn't Supreme Cleave. As such, it has a terrible cooldown (30 seconds).
hi Gwonbush, thx for this. That means we can calculate it at best once in a TWF's 20 attack sequence for comparison.


I don't know the cooldown of cruel cut. I also do not know the math of exploit weakness. I remember seeing it but didn't follow it all. I estimate it to be somewhere between 10-20% more crits. I know the Count crits at least half the time, but that includes the bonus from divine crusader as well.
yup that seems like my memory too--around 15% ish

Depending on your crit range, Exploit weakness ranges from slightly better to slightly worse than a +1 increase to your crit range (+2 with IC). Maybe I will just assume +1 to crit range then


Sacrificial dagger from ID can come with virulent constitution poison, neg levels too and ofc can be used as swashbuckler.
Veery good point--have you seen our thread on level draining? it is here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/453877-Best-level-drain-epic-melee-build. that would make a nice combo weapon for both effects.

[Caprice]

There was a time in my life when I might have been able to figure out Expose Weakness mathematically to get an exact number, but my brain has gone to mush since. I settled for running a simulation on 10 million attacks to see how Expose Weakness affects critical rates over that many, which should be large enough to approach specific numbers. I assumed Improved Critical in all cases, so that an Expose Weakness stack adds +10% chance to crit. What I found was that for each of the following "base" critical chances, the observed chance goes to:

20% -> 33.8%
30% -> 40.9%
40% -> 48.4%
50% -> 56.4%

By "base" I mean including Swashbuckling and Improved Critical already, not the vanilla weapon critical threat range.

[Saekee]

Swashbuckler stance adds +1 to the threat range of shortsword (+2 with imp crit). Then there's exploit weakness which means more crits. So 12wiz/5bard/2barb +1 level in any of those (bard 6 grants 1 more doublestrike from swashbuckler core 3), run in divine crusader for more crit range and doublestrike from zeal of the righteous. Altogether, that might beat a twf option.


There was a time in my life when I might have been able to figure out Expose Weakness mathematically to get an exact number, but my brain has gone to mush since. I settled for running a simulation on 10 million attacks to see how Expose Weakness affects critical rates over that many, which should be large enough to approach specific numbers. I assumed Improved Critical in all cases, so that an Expose Weakness stack adds +10% chance to crit. What I found was that for each of the following "base" critical chances, the observed chance goes to:

20% -> 33.8%
30% -> 40.9%
40% -> 48.4%
50% -> 56.4%

By "base" I mean including Swashbuckling and Improved Critical already, not the vanilla weapon critical threat range.

Thanks Caprice! I will assume, then, the +10% crit chance and calculate CThru's suggestion in relationship to the 12 wraith/8 fighter option.

SWF
12 wizard/6 bard/2 barbarian using Epic Sting (http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Sting) in Divine Crusader
Due to bard enhancements, eSting will have a crit range of 13-20 in combination with DC. This will be increased below for Exploit Weakness
26 attacks GSWF (1.3% attack speed) over 20 mainhand attacks from TWF
I will assume 25% doublestrike which on a Swash should be very achievable. Zeal of the Righteous is an added bonus so I will not calculate it (the TWF version is also in DC although SWF benefits far more from doublestrike)
On 26 attacks, 40% will critically hit (10.4) plus 10% for 11.44 (rounding to 11.5) critical hits. A crit deals 1d6 CON (wraith), 1d6 CON (sword) +1d4 CON (sword again). This averages to 9.5 CON damage x 11.5 or 109.25 CON damage from critical hits. Then there is the 26 CON damage from general Wounding for a total of 135.25. Finally, we can factor in the doublestrike of 25% which would total 169 CON damage. Compared to TWF, we would divide it by 20, so that comes to 8.45 or 8.5. This does not include Cruel Cut, a single attack that will hit for another 3d6 damage and may also doublestrike (?). Cruel cut, divided out over 26 attacks (due to long cooldown), would add another 10.5 CON damage over 26 attacks, so it would make the 169 increase to 179.5 and make it to 9 CON damage when compared to TWF's attack speed.

TWF
Wraith/tier5 Kensei (12 Wiz/8 Fighter dual wielding WoP rapiers in DC):
On 20 attacks, 19 hits plus with a WoP rapier with IC: Piercing, Tier 5 Kensei and in DC (11-20 crit range) means 10 critical hits for 2d6 CON (Puncturing plus Wraith form, averages out to 7) plus 19 (for basic wounding)= 89 CON damage mainhand hit total.
Add 10% doublestrike and PTWF for another 5= 102.35
Offhand gets .8 plus 10% PTWF for .88; 88x.89=78.32 offhand CON damage. In total, this means one gets 180/20 attacks or about 9 CON damage per hit.

So the two come out even. Did I make a mistake anywhere? It is Cruel Cut that makes an interesting difference with the above numbers--the cooldown may make it stronger due to the pauses in between encounters (since that time is overcome running up to the next person, or rather, 'floating'). It is concentrated on a single attack, so it would be exceptional against the first mob hit in a group attack and then cause the SWF version to slightly lag behind while on cooldown.
Also, if the doublestrike increase is high enough than SWF would be a little stronger, such as in the use of Divine Zeal or bursts from Swash tree.

However, they seem to be about equal! DRAIN THAT CON!

[CThruTheEgo]

So the two come out even. Did I make a mistake anywhere?

The attack speed bonus from swf affects everything. So a more precise calculation would assume 20 attacks for swf, multiply that result by all sources of doublestrike including gear, feats, enhancements, EDs, etc. (for both swf and twf), and then multiply the result by 1.3 for swf. Based on that alone, swf will definitely pull ahead, but by how much is the question.

It's difficult to calculate the exact doublestrike bonus from zeal of the righteous since it decays over time. Like Caprice, there was a time when I could have done such math. Use it or lose it I guess. :) But assuming you keep it on cooldown, then there would be a definite average doublestrike that it adds.

EDIT: Base doublestrike for each would be:

SWF:
2 swashbuckler cores
15 legendary shield mastery (10 from swashbuckler if no shield)
5 ptwf
10 celestial fervor (gain 1 doublestrike on crit, easy to keep up on a build with a high crit rate, does not stack with items)
32 total (27 if not using a shield)

TWF:
5 ptwf
10 celestial fervor
15 total

Each could potentially have 1-4 more from eldritch knight depending on how enhancements are spent, but this shouldn't make too much of a difference. 1 is easy and cheap since it's the first core, but I wouldn't count on the other 3.

EDIT EDIT: Also, since Caprice did a simulation based on millions of trials, I would be using the 48.4% crit chance from that, not 50%. again, a minor difference, but since the result is close already, these will determine which one is actually higher.

And based off of the rough calculations I just did, which may or may not be correct, zeal adds an average of 4.72 doublestrike.

[Saekee]

The attack speed bonus from swf affects everything. So a more precise calculation would assume 20 attacks for swf, multiply that result by all sources of doublestrike including gear, feats, enhancements, EDs, etc. (for both swf and twf), and then multiply the result by 1.3 for swf. Based on that alone, swf will definitely pull ahead, but by how much is the question.

It's difficult to calculate the exact doublestrike bonus from zeal of the righteous since it decays over time. Like Caprice, there was a time when I could have done such math. Use it or lose it I guess. :) But assuming you keep it on cooldown, then there would be a definite average doublestrike that it adds.

EDIT: Base doublestrike for each would be:

SWF:
2 swashbuckler cores
15 legendary shield mastery (10 from swashbuckler if no shield)
5 ptwf
10 celestial fervor (gain 1 doublestrike on crit, easy to keep up on a build with a high crit rate, does not stack with items)
32 total (27 if not using a shield)

TWF:
5 ptwf
10 celestial fervor
15 total

Each could potentially have 1-4 more from eldritch knight depending on how enhancements are spent, but this shouldn't make too much of a difference. 1 is easy and cheap since it's the first core, but I wouldn't count on the other 3.

EDIT EDIT: Also, since Caprice did a simulation based on millions of trials, I would be using the 48.4% crit chance from that, not 50%. again, a minor difference, but since the result is close already, these will determine which one is actually higher.

And based off of the rough calculations I just did, which may or may not be correct, zeal adds an average of 4.72 doublestrike.

hi Cthru, thanks for your thoughts. I agree that the numbers put SWF ahead, even if it is marginal. Coup de Gras requires a fortitude save so the CON draining really sets it up. Plus, it is easier to get the INT to damage from its tree--lots of synergy between bard and wizards. The downside is the need for a very rare weapon to really excel but then, even with a crafted WoP rapier in the short term, it would function well. I can see this working in heroics with a vampiric fury short sword or something similar.

I am curious what you or anyone else would consider a practical approach at this point. I would like to see this build in at least medium armor if possible, mithral twilight and take ASF enhancements (maybe go INT with Drow, and take some AP from EK tree) to remove spell failure. That way it maximizes PRR and MRR while boasting displacement, perma-incorporeality and a high AC along with all the undead resistances from Wraith form. Supreme Cleave's HP cost is nothing to a Pale Master also. I haven't played a wizard very much and am completely ignorant about armored wizards, pale masters, etc.

[Saekee]

Ok just to add: saw this armor, Shadowmail (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Shadowmail_(Level_25))

http://ddowiki.com/images/Shadowmail_%28Level_25%29.pnghttp://ddowiki.com/images/Shadowmail_shown.jpg

[FestusHood]

Most mobs don't have high con scores, even if they have large amounts of hit points.

A few months ago i was running a ravager and i remember hitting mobs in the dreaming dark series with cruel cut and making them helpless about 50% of the time. This suggests that they had total con scores of less than 20 despite having over 3000 hit points.

What i think you will find with con drain is that it will fairly quickly make a monster helpless, then once that wears off, have no noticeable effect after. I have never been able to make a monster helpless twice with con drain.

[CThruTheEgo]

I am curious what you or anyone else would consider a practical approach at this point. I would like to see this build in at least medium armor if possible, mithral twilight and take ASF enhancements (maybe go INT with Drow, and take some AP from EK tree) to remove spell failure. That way it maximizes PRR and MRR while boasting displacement, perma-incorporeality and a high AC along with all the undead resistances from Wraith form. Supreme Cleave's HP cost is nothing to a Pale Master also. I haven't played a wizard very much and am completely ignorant about armored wizards, pale masters, etc.

You can get up to -20% ASF from eldritch knight, but have to spend up to 23 AP to get it all, so meh.

Supreme cleave requires barb level 3, so you either give that up or drop to bard 5 for it. You also have the cleave from eldritch knight and probably enough feats to fit cleave/great cleave, so you may not need supreme cleave at all.

[Firewall]

Some thing to note: Stat damage is multiplied by helplessness. When a monster is helpless i see -3 STR damage from my Ninja Spy tier5 Crippling Strike with every shuriken attack and -4 STR with No Mercy and Sense Weakness active.

Also interesting: If you throw spelltouched shuriken all the random Stat damage from one attack animation is the same. So if the first attack applies -1 CON damage all the procs from Shuriken Expertise, Ninja II, Doublestrike/10k Stars also apply -1 CON damage. This doubles if the monster is helpless (Shiradi Nerve Venom, Pin, Whistler). So with shuriken and a high proc rate you can drain one stat really fast. You only need a spelltouched shuriken with a permanent CON damage on it (or a crafted Wounding of Puncturing would be even better).

[Saekee]

Most mobs don't have high con scores, even if they have large amounts of hit points.

A few months ago i was running a ravager and i remember hitting mobs in the dreaming dark series with cruel cut and making them helpless about 50% of the time. This suggests that they had total con scores of less than 20 despite having over 3000 hit points.

What i think you will find with con drain is that it will fairly quickly make a monster helpless, then once that wears off, have no noticeable effect after. I have never been able to make a monster helpless twice with con drain.
Hi Festishood, thanks for your thoughts. I have found also that they recover quickly. The SWF version would take tier 5 in Swash for CDG which requires a Fort save, and hence should land easily. I figure to twist sense weakness as well.


You can get up to -20% ASF from eldritch knight, but have to spend up to 23 AP to get it all, so meh.

Supreme cleave requires barb level 3, so you either give that up or drop to bard 5 for it. You also have the cleave from eldritch knight and probably enough feats to fit cleave/great cleave, so you may not need supreme cleave at all.
I have the EK cleave right now and it is very SP costly. I figure on a Pale Master with an aura running that it would be easier to give up 10hp. I think the Barb trees also have some great tier 3 DPS like ear smash.

I can also go Drow for max INT and Arcane fluidity of another 15%. I think a crafted mithral plate with Twilight and the Drow bonus might come to ASG of 0? Or maybe hunt for Mithral plate with a blue slot for the augment? It may be worth taking the heavy armor proficiency and stacking up on PRR and MRR (of which I have 0 experience--my main has been an armed monk or splash.


Some thing to note: Stat damage is multiplied by helplessness. When a monster is helpless i see -3 STR damage from my Ninja Spy tier5 Crippling Strike with every shuriken attack and -4 STR with No Mercy and Sense Weakness active.

Also interesting: If you throw spelltouched shuriken all the random Stat damage from one attack animation is the same. So if the first attack applies -1 CON damage all the procs from Shuriken Expertise, Ninja II, Doublestrike/10k Stars also apply -1 CON damage. This doubles if the monster is helpless (Shiradi Nerve Venom, Pin, Whistler). So with shuriken and a high proc rate you can drain one stat really fast. You only need a spelltouched shuriken with a permanent CON damage on it (or a crafted Wounding of Puncturing would be even better).
That could also be interesting, Firewall, if one could pull a spelltouched with both wounding and Life Stealing. I assume one cannot get puncturing and life stealing (or all 3). Ranged stuff has so much going for it, especially with Pin etc. like you mention. I just don't like running backwards so much--just a playstyle thing.
Have you tried a WoP crafted shuriken? Am curious what your results might be. I feel like one needs a LOT of WoP, especially the latter, to overcome EE mob's 33% resistance.

[Saekee]

Sacrificial dagger from ID can come with virulent constitution poison, neg levels too and ofc can be used as swashbuckler.

Legendkilleroll, the more I think about your suggestion, the more it appeals to me. I also happen to have that exact version of the dagger.
Epic Sting, OTOH, will take forever to craft. I enthusiastically ran AdQ and ZR last night on an EH solo with my level 25 stealth build. I completed--wasn't so bad--but did not pull any shards nor a seal in a quick Offering of Blood. Even with the increased drop rates, this will be a painful grind. At least my EMG grind was in an easily repeatable quest.

[Saekee]

I think one of the advantages of the 12 wiz/8 fighter split is the use of plate armor. Swashbuckling with SWF will lock that out and I do not like the idea of being in light armor without evasion. Here is what the build might look like; please post suggestions. Basically, everything in INT, rest in CON and enough DEX for TWF (I have a +4 Dex tome, +5 CON, +3 everything else). As mentioned in the calculations of this thread, destiny is Divine Crusader to maximize critical threat range with WoP rapiers.

Level 20 Neutral Drow Male
(8 Fighter / 12 Wizard)
Hit Points: 300
Spell Points: 755

BAB: 14/14/19/24
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 16
Will: 10

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 9 12 12
Dexterity 15 19 20
Constitution 14 19 19
Intelligence 20 28 30
Wisdom 8 11 11
Charisma 10 13 13

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Precision
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell

Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons

Level 4 (Wizard)
Level 5 (Wizard)

Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell

Level 7 (Wizard)
Level 8 (Wizard)

Levvel 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge

Level 10 (Wizard)
Level 11 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Defense

Level 13 (Wizard)
Level 14 (Wizard)

Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons

Level 17 (Fighter)

Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility

Level 19 (Fighter)

Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons

From here, the usual (OC, PTWF, etc.).

I could swap out mobility for Combat Expertise although I feel like Precision for a build that relies on critical hits is the way to go.

Plan is to go tier 31 AP tier 5 Kensei, 21 AP for Wraith Shroud, 4 AP for Drow Arcane Fluidity, leaving the rest for Harper and EK depending on arcane fluidity etc.

[CThruTheEgo]

I think one of the advantages of the 12 wiz/8 fighter split is the use of plate armor. Swashbuckling with SWF will lock that out and I do not like the idea of being in light armor without evasion.

Could aways go 2 rogue on the bard version for evasion. Plenty of skills for trapping also. Would have good synergy on an int build. On the Count I get 81 PRR and 45 MRR. Not quite as much as a heavy plate wearer, but not far behind either, especially if you're not spending points in stalwart defender. Especially in divine crusader with the healing from sacred ground, defense and healing are excellent.


Here is what the build might look like; please post suggestions.

I would not bother with dodge and mobility on a heavy armor build. You'll hit dodge cap with just an item. Also, as mentioned above, spending some in stalwart defender would give more of an advantage to going with the fighter version, but I also understand that AP will be spread very thin even without it. Other than that, the build looks good.

[Caprice]

With your +4 DEX tome you could drop starting DEX to 13 and free up 2 build points, if you are willing to live with delaying ITWF until level 15 or later when the +4 kicks in. There isn't anything amazing you can do with the extra points but you could change to STR 8 CON 15 or bump up STR. You can fit in the feats by pushing the second Fighter level (currently @12) back to level 14 and taking IC:Piercing as your Fighter feat at level 14 (since you'll have BAB8 then) and switching your level 15 selected feat to ITWF (DEX17, BAB> req. 6). After that you are back on track for the rest of the build. Wraith comes a level earlier too (@13 vs 14) but that's not a big difference.

With Dodge & Mobility you don't need a Dodge item, which might be a reason to keep them. However Cthru's point is otherwise valid, and in particular if you plan to use an Epic Belt of Thoughtful Rememberance at cap then they are ultimately wasted feats. I'd forgotten that Two Weapon Defense grants PRR now. That's not bad. Still I would be tempted to swap out either Mobility or TWD for Empower so you have a better emergency Negative Energy Burst, since 12 Wizards levels is going to leave that a little anemic. If it's Dodge & Mobility that's going I don't have a good idea for the other feat. You don't need DCs or Spell pen, and once you have Empower that's all the useful metas. Maybe Sap (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sap) for the no-save Daze? Ha ha.

I would be worried about your attack bonus; you can't stat drain what you can't hit. I'd at least factor in the 3 AP to get INT for attack from Harper. I'm assuming you'd want to go the full 12 AP minimum to get Know the Angles and INT for damage as well for enemies you can't drain. That leaves 12 for more goodies in Harper or EK or going into Stalwart.

[Saekee]

Could aways go 2 rogue on the bard version for evasion. Plenty of skills for trapping also. Would have good synergy on an int build. On the Count I get 81 PRR and 45 MRR. Not quite as much as a heavy plate wearer, but not far behind either, especially if you're not spending points in stalwart defender. Especially in divine crusader with the healing from sacred ground, defense and healing are excellent.



I would not bother with dodge and mobility on a heavy armor build. You'll hit dodge cap with just an item. Also, as mentioned above, spending some in stalwart defender would give more of an advantage to going with the fighter version, but I also understand that AP will be spread very thin even without it. Other than that, the build looks good.

Hi Cthru, that is a good point. The healing from DC will be wasted though on Wraith form, I believe. Rogue would also open up haste boost if the AP is there. Yes, need to replace those feats.


With your +4 DEX tome you could drop starting DEX to 13 and free up 2 build points, if you are willing to live with delaying ITWF until level 15 or later when the +4 kicks in. There isn't anything amazing you can do with the extra points but you could change to STR 8 CON 15 or bump up STR. You can fit in the feats by pushing the second Fighter level (currently @12) back to level 14 and taking IC:Piercing as your Fighter feat at level 14 (since you'll have BAB8 then) and switching your level 15 selected feat to ITWF (DEX17, BAB> req. 6). After that you are back on track for the rest of the build. Wraith comes a level earlier too (@13 vs 14) but that's not a big difference.

With Dodge & Mobility you don't need a Dodge item, which might be a reason to keep them. However Cthru's point is otherwise valid, and in particular if you plan to use an Epic Belt of Thoughtful Rememberance at cap then they are ultimately wasted feats. I'd forgotten that Two Weapon Defense grants PRR now. That's not bad. Still I would be tempted to swap out either Mobility or TWD for Empower so you have a better emergency Negative Energy Burst, since 12 Wizards levels is going to leave that a little anemic. If it's Dodge & Mobility that's going I don't have a good idea for the other feat. You don't need DCs or Spell pen, and once you have Empower that's all the useful metas. Maybe Sap (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sap) for the no-save Daze? Ha ha.

I would be worried about your attack bonus; you can't stat drain what you can't hit. I'd at least factor in the 3 AP to get INT for attack from Harper. I'm assuming you'd want to go the full 12 AP minimum to get Know the Angles and INT for damage as well for enemies you can't drain. That leaves 12 for more goodies in Harper or EK or going into Stalwart.

hi Caprice, excellent suggestions. I like your idea for moving the Dex points downward and taking the ITWF later. I figure this build will mostly play as a caster in heroics. I love SAP for stealth builds but not sure how it would work on this guy. I have little experience playing a Pale Master (actually, none) so this will be a learning experience. I will take your advice and put in Empower. Perhaps I will take Combat Expertise as an option for swapping out precision if I need the boost to AC. Or I could just take toughness. The HP of pale masters can be a little low.

For general BAB once this build starts using melee, the Divine Crusader gives one a full BAB. Also, 12 wizard can self-cast Tensers, so that will be part of the self-buff rotation.

This build will use the INt to hit and damage in harper as well as know the angles.

[Caprice]

Good point on the attack bonuses, hitting won't be a problem once you can start applying those buffs.

Be wary of Combat Expertise (http://ddowiki.com/page/Combat_expertise) on a caster; IIUC it increases the cooldowns of your spells (but not SLAs) by a factor of 3. I have never tried it on a caster for this reason. I would also be terrified if that tripled CD was multiplied by the Tenser's Transformation doubled spell cooldown, as that could make for some tremendously slow recasts. OTOH the wiki description says that it dispels all Rage effects, so maybe it would be situationally useful for clearing unwanted Rages (e.g. Madstone) - toggle it on and immediately off and you can cast again. I'd want to test that to see if it works as described though before committing to it.

[Saekee]

Good point on the attack bonuses, hitting won't be a problem once you can start applying those buffs.

Be wary of Combat Expertise (http://ddowiki.com/page/Combat_expertise) on a caster; IIUC it increases the cooldowns of your spells (but not SLAs) by a factor of 3. I have never tried it on a caster for this reason. I would also be terrified if that tripled CD was multiplied by the Tenser's Transformation doubled spell cooldown, as that could make for some tremendously slow recasts. OTOH the wiki description says that it dispels all Rage effects, so maybe it would be situationally useful for clearing unwanted Rages (e.g. Madstone) - toggle it on and immediately off and you can cast again. I'd want to test that to see if it works as described though before committing to it.

I don't have the Mastone boots, but yes--that would be an issue with the possible need to do some quick burst healing. I will skip it then. Thanks for the hint there. That leaves an extra feat.
Weird--usually my builds struggle with lack of feats. Maybe I should fit in some basic ranged skills, like Quickdraw for shuriken throwing since I will have shuriken expertise anyway. Situational at best though. Or perhaps Sneak of Shadows past life feat.

[CThruTheEgo]

With Dodge & Mobility you don't need a Dodge item, which might be a reason to keep them. However Cthru's point is otherwise valid, and in particular if you plan to use an Epic Belt of Thoughtful Rememberance at cap then they are ultimately wasted feats.

This is kind of what I was thinking. There are several items with otherwise useful properties that also have dodge, so it will likely be slotted somewhere. However, this is a caster/melee hybrid which means gearing can get complicated. I don't know exactly how much casting you want to do or what gear is competing with the common dodge slots. So if you find you don't end up with dodge in your gear set, then maybe taking them is a good idea.


The healing from DC will be wasted though on Wraith form, I believe.

Forgot about undead healing. You're right.

[Caprice]

I don't have the Mastone boots, but yes--that would be an issue with the possible need to do some quick burst healing. I will skip it then. Thanks for the hint there. That leaves an extra feat.
Weird--usually my builds struggle with lack of feats. Maybe I should fit in some basic ranged skills, like Quickdraw for shuriken throwing since I will have shuriken expertise anyway. Situational at best though. Or perhaps Sneak of Shadows past life feat.
I like the Quickdraw idea. It's my favorite feat that I can almost never fit in. It gives you more effective time on your Action Boosts, and you'll be using at least Haste Boost on this character. QD would also make swapping mid combat less painful when you run into enemies that you didn't expect to be immune to drain. I feel like I end up banging my weapon set hotkeys a LOT on my non-QD characters because of the long delay and how the game doesn't always seem to take my command to switch seriously.

[Saekee]

Here would be the wraith bard with rogue. Was not sure to do 6 bard or 5 bard. The issue is the BAB qualifier for weapon skills; it does not get GSWF until level 21. So to decrease the pain, I think it might be good to go shadar-kai. I do not have the AP for racial cores anyway.
The advantage of the rogue splash over barb splash is trap skills, evasion, and the possibility of developing this into a stealthy killer, my playstyle.

I went with Caprice's suggestion and selected Quickdraw, although I could do mobility. Another option would be to do Sap; does Coup de Gras work on sapped enemies?

Should I do quicken or maximize?

The spell casting is really for self-buffing, although with INT as the main stat I would have access to Energy burst as an effective cc twist.

Nice thing here is that I could use the sacrificial dagger with Con poison for both Con damage AND level drain, so it will be an incredible debuffer. The other advantage of the sacrificial dagger is that epic elite mobs will resist much of the stat draining but they will not resist the level draining. I figure between the two, it is a nice double punch.



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.23.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 28 True Neutral Shadar-Kai Female
(2 Rogue \ 12 Wizard \ 6 Bard \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 386
Spell Points: 954
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 21
Will: 13

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28) (Level 28)
Strength 8 11 11
Dexterity 12 16 16
Constitution 16 21 21
Intelligence 18 28 29
Wisdom 8 11 11
Charisma 13 16 16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
+5 Tome of Constitution used at level 19



[B]Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
Feat: (Selected) Single Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT


Level 5 (Wizard)


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Precision


Level 7 (Wizard)


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT


Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Selected) Improved Single Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Wizard)


Level 14 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: INT


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Single Weapon Fighting


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Tactician


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Watchful Eye


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: INT

[Haphazarduk]

I ran a wraith con draining build for a while. It felt ok in heroics but never got going well enough to feel like Epics were justifiable. Did it work for you?

I'm going to try another, more general, crit fishing build soon but would be interested in your thoughts (if you can still remember!).

Hap

[Saekee]

I ran a wraith con draining build for a while. It felt ok in heroics but never got going well enough to feel like Epics were justifiable. Did it work for you?

I'm going to try another, more general, crit fishing build soon but would be interested in your thoughts (if you can still remember!).

Hap
I ran a level draining build like this and it worked well against mobs that could be level drained. Their numbers are diminishing though—undead, wf, champs etc make stuff less and less effective.

It was a henshin wraith, level drain LCEWS, SWF void strike with oathblade. Fleshies fell FAST.

epic mobs recovery lost stats fast & heroic mobs die too fast...