Bluff, a Sorcerer's View

[jellyfish21]

I suggest that there is implemented for a use of a sorcerer's bluff skill. Without saying, there is absolutely no use. When I've played P&P, bluff was real nice for role playing.

There is only two ability scores which a Sorcerer Should benefit from, which is CHA and CON. The mere suggestion that a sorcerer's power comes from INT, well, its a mere insult.

Every P&P friend which has played a Sorcerer, with a point buy, chooses an 18 starting CHA. A 32 point build dictates a 14+ CON., having 22 points spent w/ ten points left over; improving all other starting scores up to ten leaves only two points left. We improve our CHA during leveling up. Its all about the CHA. Sorcerers have their magical powers from blood lines, not study. The stronger the blood line, represented by CHA, the more powerful a sorcerer becomes.

In DDO, the obvious change is to replace a sorcerer's spell power From spell craft Unto a CHA based skill: Bluff.

Its not rocket science. But, it takes programing. I appreciate any effort from the DDO team to help improve our play.

Thanks !

p.s. I realize that there has been many posts regarding this issue. I bring it up again because its important to me.

[AbyssalMage]

I suggest that there is implemented for a use of a sorcerer's bluff skill. Without saying, there is absolutely no use. When I've played P&P, bluff was real nice for role playing.

There is only two ability scores which a Sorcerer Should benefit from, which is CHA and CON. The mere suggestion that a sorcerer's power comes from INT, well, its a mere insult.

Every P&P friend which has played a Sorcerer, with a point buy, chooses an 18 starting CHA. A 32 point build dictates a 14+ CON., having 22 points spent w/ ten points left over; improving all other starting scores up to ten leaves only two points left. We improve our CHA during leveling up. Its all about the CHA. Sorcerers have their magical powers from blood lines, not study. The stronger the blood line, represented by CHA, the more powerful a sorcerer becomes.

In DDO, the obvious change is to replace a sorcerer's spell power From spell craft Unto a CHA based skill: Bluff.

Its not rocket science. But, it takes programing. I appreciate any effort from the DDO team to help improve our play.

Thanks !

p.s. I realize that there has been many posts regarding this issue. I bring it up again because its important to me.
Sorcerer never made sense to me in 3.5 and still doesn't lore wise. Spellcraft makes sense in that it is your intellect that is allowing you to bend your spells to do more damage. /shrug

Makes as much sense as anything with a high Charisma being a sorcerer, living or dead.

[kmoustakas]

I suggest that there is implemented for a use of a sorcerer's bluff skill. Without saying, there is absolutely no use. When I've played P&P, bluff was real nice for role playing.

There is only two ability scores which a Sorcerer Should benefit from, which is CHA and CON. The mere suggestion that a sorcerer's power comes from INT, well, its a mere insult.

Every P&P friend which has played a Sorcerer, with a point buy, chooses an 18 starting CHA. A 32 point build dictates a 14+ CON., having 22 points spent w/ ten points left over; improving all other starting scores up to ten leaves only two points left. We improve our CHA during leveling up. Its all about the CHA. Sorcerers have their magical powers from blood lines, not study. The stronger the blood line, represented by CHA, the more powerful a sorcerer becomes.

In DDO, the obvious change is to replace a sorcerer's spell power From spell craft Unto a CHA based skill: Bluff.

Its not rocket science. But, it takes programing. I appreciate any effort from the DDO team to help improve our play.

Thanks !

p.s. I realize that there has been many posts regarding this issue. I bring it up again because its important to me.

I disagree with your suggestion. Intelligence doesn't and shouldn't affect your spells specifically but since spellcraft is the skill of knowing how to better implement spells, being them natural or studied makes absolute sense. Bluff makes absolute nonsense.

[janave]

Yes, please do something with spellcraft so the actual DPS arcane class isnt behind 30+ points because of this being an INT skill. I think a lore consideration is not necessary, as it would be hard to "make sense for everyone"

On the other hand, my wizard shirady with arcane supremacy plays almost identically to a sorcerer, with the exception that i can damage anything in the game, and being a lot more survivable due to extra feats, wraith form and failess heal over time, with the occasional burst when i take spike dmg.

[Blackheartox]

I mean opener, logically it does make sense to make it somewhat charisma bound so that your charisma increaases your damage.

Since in the first place, a sorcerer is the master and lord of elements and arcane power.
A wizzard "studies" spells so that he has the ability to adapt and chose a spell from his book that he learned or remember spells depending on situation.
Sorc-s power comes from brute force talent and overflowing arcane magic froma invidual.
So basically imo, sorc should be a nuking class with supreme damage while wiz a dc casting class with versatility or specialized lords of death.

Lore wise, and how it should be, yes sorc should do rougly 50% more spell damage or even more.

BUT, in game in ddo balance wise, that is not the fact.
Properly played sorc currently in ddo is just a supreme being, the benefits from increased max caster levels and caster levels add so much to dps that it totally outperforms a wizzy.
Everyone who played a end geared dc sorc and dc wizzy knows how much more powerful sorc is since both handle trash in a simple and easy way.
But the additional spp, caster levels, element weaknes debuff put sorc very very high up as solo class.
While wizz has issues to handle some bosses due to sp burn and clickies dependent mode to come nearly close to sorc dps.

So basically all my ranting put short, sorc is alrdy way ahead in dps even without any point in int for classic pure arcane builds, lore wise it would make sense to do what you propose but balance wise no

[janave]

Sorc DPS has trade offs, elemental immunity/absorption etc...very common stuff. Wizard has better generic DPS vs sorcerer savants. Due to content variance, yes some savants are better generally, depends heavily on what you play most.

As a sorcerer you have buffs to 1 single element, which is very good if the situation/content is favorable. Unlike Wizard trees, the Sorcerer trees are mostly not synergistic, few points in EK may worth it depending on your build, but thats all.

Wizard with harper has now 4 trees, and almost all combinations are effective. As for EDs, Draconic or Shirady, while not the best choice, Wizard is workable in Magister.

Not sure what i am missing about sorcerers that make them so above all. :/

[Blackheartox]

Sorc DPS has trade offs, elemental immunity/absorption etc...very common stuff. Wizard has better generic DPS vs sorcerer savants. Due to content variance, yes some savants are better generally, depends heavily on what you play most.

As a sorcerer you have buffs to 1 single element, which is very good if the situation/content is favorable. Unlike Wizard trees, the Sorcerer trees are mostly not synergistic, few points in EK may worth it depending on your build, but thats all.

Wizard with harper has now 4 trees, and almost all combinations are effective. As for EDs, Draconic or Shirady, while not the best choice, Wizard is workable in Magister.

Not sure what i am missing about sorcerers that make them so above all. :/


Most content has same type of mob so generally sticking to acid/fire will get you through every possible content.
Air savant/fire best combo, given that you have knock imunity and wings it makes zerging very easy as sorc and placement for bursts.
You only need 2 savants and you drop all points into them for maximum efficiency, you dont need to bother with a few points here few there like wizz, its straighforward easy to make type of build.
Increased caster levels,casting speed, increased maximum caster levels add a huge chunk to dps.
Sorc has the highest arcane level casting ability, and alot dps comes from those increased caster levels.
Dont forget the vulnerabilty and the extra damage that comes from imollation and weaken frome elec spells.
Did you ever see a fully stacked /very easy to and very synergistic with emyprian/ imollation?

I played both a fully geared end game nearly 3x all pm and am piking now in sorc life.
Sorc is considerablly stronger then palemaster and then most shiradi builds.
Comes from experience and solo speed run zergings of ee quests.
I have no personal preference, since i played everything sorc/wizz related and i sticked with the thing that simply showed me best results.
I just cant even come close as pm or shiradi to sorc speed due to nuking power.
And i would never taint sorc by going a shiradi sorc build.

Wont add other little tricks and tips that make sorc stronger overall tho, those that i wrote are more then enough

[bartharok]

Yes, please do something with spellcraft so the actual DPS arcane class isnt behind 30+ points because of this being an INT skill. I think a lore consideration is not necessary, as it would be hard to "make sense for everyone"

On the other hand, my wizard shirady with arcane supremacy plays almost identically to a sorcerer, with the exception that i can damage anything in the game, and being a lot more survivable due to extra feats, wraith form and failess heal over time, with the occasional burst when i take spike dmg.

Sorcs are behind on DPS only if you count it as damage per SPELL. Since a sorc has a lot shorter cooldowns between spells they can spam spells faster, namely the top tier spells.

[moomooprincess]

I see where the OP is coming from.

Back when this came out people were predicting the death of favored souls and sorcerors because of this.

Just add a feat where we can change our spellcraft coming from INT to a charisma based skill. Which already exists in other forms, such as Charisma being used for saves instead of wisdom, Force of Personality. They could just add it to that as a matter of fact.

Obviously, a little coding change is in order when casting a spell; something like this, I am just waking up to go shovel snow so my brain is not fully funcitoning

If spellcast
then if feat = Force of Personality then spellcraft + charisma bonus
else spellcraft + intelligence bonus
endif
endif

[General_Gronker]

Sorcerer never made sense to me in 3.5 and still doesn't lore wise.
Yes it does. If it doesn't make sense to you, that's a flaw with your understanding. Not the game or the class. That said, no, Bluff for spell power is a dumb idea.

[JOTMON]

I disagree with your suggestion. Intelligence doesn't and shouldn't affect your spells specifically but since spellcraft is the skill of knowing how to better implement spells, being them natural or studied makes absolute sense. Bluff makes absolute nonsense.

Look a squirrel. >> now blend in.. nothing to see here...

http://www.guy-sports.com/fun_pictures/foxindogs.jpg

[jellyfish21]

Beguiler

Look up that class and tell me about Bluff used for a caster. Too bad that this implement for the bluff skill was introduced as a subset of wizard rather than a subset of sorcerer, which was poorly thought out.

In summary, the Beguiler (A character who beguiles, a CHA skill) would be able to feign enemies so that the enemies' saves and spell resistances were lowered, catching an enemy off guard.

Now, in DDO, it makes sense to follow this train of thought. However, the feign should catch an enemy off guard enough to deal more damage. Using this ability should be passive, with a higher bluff skill amounting to more damage. I suppose this passive feat should be a sorcerer feat, inclusive, unavailable to others unless they have a sorcerer level or two. The passive skill / feat can work just like the passive spell craft skill.

Having two skills to support damage may get problematic. I suggest that the player may make a choice, CHA or INT, for determining damage. This choice is seen in a monk's philosophy feat.

This suggestion is only an idea, good or indifferent.

[janave]

Beguiler

Look up that class and tell me about Bluff used for a caster. Too bad that this implement for the bluff skill was introduced as a subset of wizard rather than a subset of sorcerer, which was poorly thought out.

In summary, the Beguiler (A character who beguiles, a CHA skill) would be able to feign enemies so that the enemies' saves and spell resistances were lowered, catching an enemy off guard.

Now, in DDO, it makes sense to follow this train of thought. However, the feign should catch an enemy off guard enough to deal more damage. Using this ability should be passive, with a higher bluff skill amounting to more damage. I suppose this passive feat should be a sorcerer feat, inclusive, unavailable to others unless they have a sorcerer level or two. The passive skill / feat can work just like the passive spell craft skill.

Having two skills to support damage may get problematic. I suggest that the player may make a choice, CHA or INT, for determining damage. This choice is seen in a monk's philosophy feat.

This suggestion is only an idea, good or indifferent.

Or you could just get spellcraft from charisma, or intellect, whichever is higher. Or they could make it a lvl6th 2nd core in all savant trees to get charisma mod to spellcraft.

[Kaytis]

A well-geared sorc in any Savant will roll EH. With primary spell power topping 500 by level 28, and maximize /empower running (225 more) the damage is usually lethal. Off-elements can be raised enough to be more than effective against the immune trash.

Sorcerer tends to taper off a little in EE simply due to the sheer number of hit points the mobs have. One's play style has to veer towards spell point conservation, damage amp tactics, with the inherent risk that a mob is going to actually hit you while you are jumping around.

One of the all time best EE toons I ever saw was a tricked-out PM. While my sorc was busy draining her SP bar chipping away at the next mob, he was just insta-killing all of them. But he worked stupid hard to get the DCs needed so more power to him. The only place my sorc was genuinely helpful was against red names. Actually the combo of high-DC PM / nuke sorc is amazing. PM for the trash, sorc for the red names, is a dungeon steam-rolling juggernaut.

[jellyfish21]

I agree, Katie.

[Blackheartox]

A well-geared sorc in any Savant will roll EH. With primary spell power topping 500 by level 28, and maximize /empower running (225 more) the damage is usually lethal. Off-elements can be raised enough to be more than effective against the immune trash.

Sorcerer tends to taper off a little in EE simply due to the sheer number of hit points the mobs have. One's play style has to veer towards spell point conservation, damage amp tactics, with the inherent risk that a mob is going to actually hit you while you are jumping around.

One of the all time best EE toons I ever saw was a tricked-out PM. While my sorc was busy draining her SP bar chipping away at the next mob, he was just insta-killing all of them. But he worked stupid hard to get the DCs needed so more power to him. The only place my sorc was genuinely helpful was against red names. Actually the combo of high-DC PM / nuke sorc is amazing. PM for the trash, sorc for the red names, is a dungeon steam-rolling juggernaut.


Uhm, that is entirely incorrect.
A sorc kills trash at same speed and rate as pale master with hold/aoes of savant/burst/breath combos.
Since its a 1 shot combo for almost any ee content in ddo.
A well geared sorc has no need to jump around, sorc in its final ultimate form with 4 3 2 1 twist setup is just stupid as it can get.
Pm doesnt benefit from that setup as much as sorc does.

It doesnt taper at all in ee /:

It actually tends to be overpowered in ee imho.
As said, ive played it both a fully endgeared pm with burst dc enough to instakill even in wgu and a fully endgeared fleshie sorc to instagib everything.
Sorc wins hats down in any content, pm is also super strong, but boss dps is so so bad and sp/boss damage is totally ineffective.
As pm you are forced to chug a pot here and there, as sorc only if you really want to skip that shrine and are short on playtime

IF someone asked me if sorc needed any kind of buff i would do the headsmack pose and say no, maybe some tree to add variety since all savants feel like 1 tree to me, but thats all

[janave]

People often ignore the fact how much preparation and time investment it takes to bring a char to its promoted effectiveness.

From my experience:
* Shirady anything is probably the biggest easy button with the only twist really meaningful is eburst, and the gear is mostly trash with element/lore, impulse/kinetic...etc
* Palemaster is not all that hard to equip as well, so you can get meaningful DCs for 95% of the content.
* Sorcerer nuker is again very easy to prepare in Draconic, but its a long journey before you zerg any but the lowest EE content without pots or outside help.

I did not go the distance really to maximize my caster, so the only option to go thru EE for me was entering Shirady on Wizard, and dropping most of my DCs (except enchant) for more defense: wraith, medium armor, going stick/shield, @ boss fight switching to orb/stick.

I also do not use many temporary buffs available, maybe commendation sp pots and yugo pots, if i dont forget. I would use more if the collectible pots would have less awful durations.

[Blackheartox]

People often ignore the fact how much preparation and time investment it takes to bring a char to its promoted effectiveness.

From my experience:
* Shirady anything is probably the biggest easy button with the only twist really meaningful is eburst, and the gear is mostly trash with element/lore, impulse/kinetic...etc
* Palemaster is not all that hard to equip as well, so you can get meaningful DCs for 95% of the content.
* Sorcerer nuker is again very easy to prepare in Draconic, but its a long journey before you zerg any but the lowest EE content without pots or outside help.

I did not go the distance really to maximize my caster, so the only option to go thru EE for me was entering Shirady on Wizard, and dropping most of my DCs (except enchant) for more defense: wraith, medium armor, going stick/shield, @ boss fight switching to orb/stick.

I also do not use many temporary buffs available, maybe commendation sp pots and yugo pots, if i dont forget. I would use more if the collectible pots would have less awful durations.

For draconic fleshie sorc imo and pm hardest to get are optics.
After that, hardest is your thforged sticks.
Every other piece of gear is easy obtainable.

Most consuming part to me is trs and etrs.

They bring forth alot of power to those 2 classes.
Free dc from completionist, dc for evoc and conju, dc from wizz plife, hamp for sorc, free hp.
Same with ep plifes, prr, hp for sorc, energy critical, and at end of the work 4 3 2 1 setup.
Difference between a newly born sorc and a fully completed is so huge that most of the time my talk about ee zerging wont work correctly for regular player.
But why am i doing that talk is simple, every single player casual or hardcore has the ability to etr and itr and tr to get to that point. Noone is locked out from it.
Example, im running around with 130 prr, 50 mrr, 1100-1200 hp and 17% dodge in l armor as fleshie human sorc fully focused on only charisma and dcs which of course fully gives me the freedom to talk about zerging.

A sorc in its ultimate form requires a nerf, a sorc in its baby shell form is still actually good but requires the player to be way more careful in combat engage

I wont even say anything about shiradi, you put it really well

[Enderoc]

sneak bluff charm, It should act as diplomacy or have a fear effect for single targets as well. You just zapped the creature , you bluff him you are all powerful or your minions are coming. He doesnt want to fight you or looks for them so turns away. Before damage it should serve as provocation to lure or make mad clumsy or trick for SA, after damage it should serve as intimidation to the point of it scaring the target or bewilder it from whoever its target is.. Improved feint if successful should make all creatures in range who fail forget their targets in confusion allowing everyone to make sneak attacks. Like diplo for the whole party. A Half elf could potentially control mobs, not just with song and spell but persuasion as well being they have extra clickies to make the most of aoe amongst other things. So lets make a challenge of this thread. Create a crowd control toon that does just that in your generators. Bards seem the way to go with that... but how many build them that way?

[jellyfish21]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.23.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

JEB
Level 28 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Sorcerer \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 312
Spell Points: 2316
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 5
Will: 12

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28) (Level 28)
Strength 8 8 8
Dexterity 8 8 8
Constitution 18 18 18
Intelligence 8 8 8
Wisdom 8 8 8
Charisma 18 27 29

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 22
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 25

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28) (Level 28)
Balance -1 -1 7
Bluff 8 32 40
Concentration 8 27 35
Diplomacy 4 9 17
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle 4 9 23
Heal -1 -1 7
Hide -1 -1 7
Intimidate 4 9 23
Jump -1 -1 7
Listen -1 -1 7
Move Silently -1 -1 7
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair -1 -1 7
Search -1 -1 7
Spellcraft -1 -1 7
Spot -1 -1 7
Swim -1 -1 7
Tumble n/a n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a n/a

Level 1 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Bluff (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Spell (1): Acid Spray
Spell (1): Burning Hands


Level 2 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Spell (1): Jump


Level 3 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Evocation
Spell (1): Magic Missile


Level 4 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (2): Scorch


Level 5 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Heroic Durability
Spell (2): Melf's Acid Arrow


Level 6 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (3): Fireball


Level 7 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (2): Invisibility
Spell (3): Acid Blast


Level 8 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (4): Wall of Fire


Level 9 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
Spell (2): Resist Energy
Spell (3): Chain Missiles
Spell (4): Acid Rain


Level 10 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (5): Prismatic Ray


Level 11 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (3): Rage
Spell (4): Burning Blood
Spell (5): Cloudkill


Level 12 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Spell (6): Acid Fog


Level 13 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (4): Force Missiles
Spell (5): Protection from Elements
Spell (6): Disintegrate


Level 14 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (7): Delayed Blast Fireball


Level 15 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Spell (5): Teleport
Spell (6): Greater Heroism
Spell (7): Prismatic Spray


Level 16 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (8): Black Dragon Bolt


Level 17 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (7): Waves of Exhaustion
Spell (8): Incendiary Cloud


Level 18 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
Spell (9): Meteor Swarm


Level 19 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (8): Symbol of Death
Spell (9): Energy Drain


Level 20 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Bluff (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Spell (9): Power Word: Kill


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Mental Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Epic: Epic Power
Feat: (Automatic) Epic: Epic Skills


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: CHA
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Spell Focus: Evocation


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Epic Spell Power: Fire


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Ruin


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: CHA
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Hellball
Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Sor) - Eldritch Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Sor) - Spellsword: Flame (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Sor) - Improved Mage Armor (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Sor) - Improved Mage Armor (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Sor) - Improved Mage Armor (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Sor) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Sor) - Toughness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Fire Savant (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Fire Affinity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Greater Fire Affinity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Immolation (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Elemental Persistence (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Elemental Apotheosis: Fire (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Burning Hands (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Burning Hands (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Burning Hands (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Intensity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Intensity (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Intensity (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - One with the Inferno (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - One with the Inferno (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - One with the Inferno (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Spell Critical: Fire I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Conflagration (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Conflagration (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Conflagration (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Efficient Maximize (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Efficient Maximize (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Efficient Maximize (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Pierce Fire Resistance (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Pierce Fire Resistance (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Pierce Fire Resistance (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Spell Critical: Fire II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Fanning the Flames (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Fanning the Flames (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Fanning the Flames (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Efficient Empower (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Efficient Empower (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Efficient Empower (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Spell Penetration (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Spell Critical: Fire III (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Scorch (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Scorch (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Scorch (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Efficient Heighten (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Efficient Heighten (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Fire Guard (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Spell Critical: Fire IV (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Fireball (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Fireball (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Fireball (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Awaken Elemental Weakness: Fire (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Heat Death (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Evocation Focus (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Fire Savant (Sor) - Power of Acid (Rank 1)

[jellyfish21]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.23.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

JEB Jr.
Level 28 Lawful Good Human Male
(20 Wizard \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 312
Spell Points: 1754
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 5
Will: 11

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28) (Level 28)
Strength 8 8 8
Dexterity 8 8 8
Constitution 18 18 18
Intelligence 18 25 29
Wisdom 8 8 8
Charisma 8 8 8

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28) (Level 28)
Balance -1 1 9
Bluff -1 1 9
Concentration 8 27 35
Diplomacy -1 1 9
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle -1 10 18
Heal -1 1 9
Hide -1 1 9
Intimidate -1 1 9
Jump -1 4 12
Listen -1 1 9
Move Silently -1 1 9
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a 1 9
Repair 8 32 40
Search 4 11 19
Spellcraft 8 32 45
Spot 1 1 9
Swim 1 1 9
Tumble 1 1 9
Use Magic Device 1 10 18

Level 1 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Repair (+4)
Skill: Spellcraft (+4)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Swim (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Dismiss Charm
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Inscribe Wizard Scroll
Feat: (Automatic) Magical Training
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Club
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Dagger
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Heavy Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Light Crossbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Quarterstaff
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Throwing Dagger
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency: Unarmed
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Spell (1): Acid Spray
Spell (1): Burning Hands
Spell (1): Chill Touch
Spell (1): Magic Missile
Spell (1): Niac's Cold Ray
Spell (1): Shocking Grasp
Spell (1): Sonic Blast


Level 2 (Wizard)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Spell (1): Jump
Spell (1): Ray of Enfeeblement


Level 3 (Wizard)
Skill: Bluff (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Spell (2): Melf's Acid Arrow
Spell (2): Scorch


Level 4 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Diplomacy (+2)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Spell (2): Electric Loop
Spell (2): Lesser Death Aura


Level 5 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Feat: (Automatic) Improved Heroic Durability
Spell (3): Acid Blast
Spell (3): Fireball


Level 6 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Spell (3): Chain Missiles
Spell (3): Lightning Bolt


Level 7 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Spell (4): Acid Rain
Spell (4): Wall of Fire


Level 8 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (4): Burning Blood
Spell (4): Death Aura


Level 9 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Spell (5): Ball Lightning
Spell (5): Cloudkill


Level 10 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Listen (+2)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Evocation
Spell (5): Eladar's Electric Surge
Spell (5): Niac's Biting Cold


Level 11 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (6): Acid Fog
Spell (6): Otiluke's Freezing Sphere


Level 12 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
Spell (6): Disintegrate
Spell (6): Necrotic Ray


Level 13 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (7): Delayed Blast Fireball
Spell (7): Prismatic Spray


Level 14 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (7): Waves of Exhaustion
Spell (7): Otto's Sphere of Dancing


Level 15 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2.5)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Enchantment
Spell (8): Mass Charm Monster
Spell (8): Black Dragon Bolt


Level 16 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (8): Incendiary Cloud
Spell (8): Symbol of Death


Level 17 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+3)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Spell (9): Dominate Monster
Spell (9): Meteor Swarm


Level 18 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+3)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
Spell (9): Hold Monster, Mass
Spell (9): Energy Drain


Level 19 (Wizard)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Spell (9): Power Word: Kill
Spell (9): Summon Monster IX


Level 20 (Wizard)
Ability Raise: INT
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Skill: Repair (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Enlarge Spell
Spell (9): Mordenkainen's Disjunction
Spell (9): Wail of the Banshee


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Mental Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Epic: Epic Power
Feat: (Automatic) Epic: Epic Skills


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Spell Focus: Evocation


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Epic Spell Power: Fire


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Ruin


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: INT
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Hellball
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Evocation I: Magic Missile (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Evocation II: Gust of Wind (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Evocation III: Chain Missiles (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Evocation IV: Fire Shield (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Evocation V: Cyclonic Blast (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Master of Magic (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Subtle Spellcasting (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Subtle Spellcasting (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Subtle Spellcasting (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Energy of the Scholar (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Energy of the Scholar (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Energy of the Scholar (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Spell Critical: Elemental and Force I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Wand Heightening (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Wand Heightening (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Wand Heightening (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Improved Empowering (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Improved Empowering (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Improved Empowering (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Improved Quickening (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Improved Quickening (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Improved Quickening (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Improved Maximizing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Improved Maximizing (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Improved Maximizing (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Spell Critical: Elemental and Force II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Wand and Scroll Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Wand and Scroll Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Wand and Scroll Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Arcane Bolt (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Arcane Bolt (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Arcane Bolt (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Spell Penetration (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Spell Penetration (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Spell Penetration (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Spell Critical: Elemental and Force III (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Intelligence (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Efficient Heightening (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Efficient Heightening (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Primary Spell Focus: Evocation (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Spell Critical: Elemental and Force IV (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Intelligence (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Arcane Blast (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Arcane Blast (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Arcane Blast (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Arcane Supremacy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Primary Spell Focus: Evocation (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Archmage (Wiz) - Secondary Spell Focus: Enchantment (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Eldritch Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Eldritch Knight (Wiz) - Toughness (Rank 1)

[IronClan]

Yes, please do something with spellcraft so the actual DPS arcane class isnt behind 30+ points because of this being an INT skill. I think a lore consideration is not necessary, as it would be hard to "make sense for everyone"

On the other hand, my wizard shirady with arcane supremacy plays almost identically to a sorcerer, with the exception that i can damage anything in the game, and being a lot more survivable due to extra feats, wraith form and failess heal over time, with the occasional burst when i take spike dmg.

The only Sorc behind 30 points is built by someone who hasn't got a clue what they're doing. It is so tiresome hearing the same calls to make the game simplistic and mindless over and over on the forums, go play a simplistic game. Tradeoffs and tough choices and complexity are what drives good games.

At most a competently built Sorc will be behind by 4 or so INT build points, 4-ish enhancements, 7 level increases, 6 destiny INT pips, 2 Great stat, and a maybe a Capstone or Lich form if there's no splash on the wizard and he's a Necro Specced DC's first Wizard (i.e, one worried primarily about making DC's not nuking spell power) that is a grand total of 13.5 (rounded down to 13) Spellcraft skill... On a NECRO SPEC who probably is carrying a Two hander for DC's and other things that make him much lower spell power and much lower crit chance than a Sorc).

Comparing Apples to Apples: A Nuking Wizard is unlikely to gimp himself just to try and get 72-75 Evo/Reflex save DC (being complete overkill, and so a waste of opportunity cost) so is more likely to use at least some of the Destiny pips and great stat feat opportunity cost for something more useful than making mobs fail their Energy Burst saves by 6 to 10 more than they already fail by. Additionally a Nuking focused Wizard is likely to be in Wraith Form (-2 INT) and Multiclassed (-2 INT) is likely to be in Shiradi (-6 INT) and very well might not be taking great stats (-2 INT) in favor of taking a secondary school focus (like Enchantment). So now we're at 7.

So if you've managed to do something as screwed up as being 30 points lower Spellcraft than a Wizard, that's on you.

[IronClan]

As a sorcerer you have buffs to 1 single element

o.O



Not sure what i am missing about sorcerers that make them so above all. :/

O.o

I think I know what you're missing



As a sorcerer you have buffs to 1 single element

I guess I can see why you think you're behind by 30... You don't even know you can take two savant trees... so you're probably missing a whole bunch of other stuff. Like the guy who posted 40 bluff versus 7 Spellcraft... yes if you try to you can make a bad build that is way lower in Spellcraft, and only has 1 effective element... But here's the thing, I am sure if you guys made a Nuking Wizard you'd also miss a bunch of stuff and throw away lots of power as well, so in fact the lousy Sorc's you made would compare quite well with the lousy Wizard's you would make.

/carry on

BTW totally okay with making bluff do something useful on a Sorc or any other caster that takes it, even if Sorc has the mighty advantage of 7 more ranks than anyone else.

[Chilldude]

I suggest that there is implemented for a use of a sorcerer's bluff skill. Without saying, there is absolutely no use. When I've played P&P...

DDO is not now, never was, and will never be anything even remotely like PnP. In fact, every attempt at trying to adhere to the ruleset of the D&D PnP game only makes the game that much worse, while almost always achieving the opposite of the intended effect.

As far as the bluff skill goes...

It's not of great use, no. However, there are multiple NPC interactions that benefit from a high bluff skill. Additionally, bluff can be used to pull single mobs from a crowd. In difficult content with a weaker party, this ability is supremely powerful.

Of course there is always the extremely brief respite from getting pounded on when you bluff an aggro'd mob in battle, but I tend to agree on that being of little use. It'd be cool and fitting if perhaps bluff dramatically lowered a mob's saves while the mob has its back turned.

I always take bluff on my sorcs. Other than concentration and UMD, there's really nothing else a sorc needs. Sure, I could take spellcraft instead of bluff, but big whoop, another 10 or so spell power at cap... yawn. You'd never know the difference. However, having an extremely high bluff skill, while situational, is very powerful in those situations. Prove your worth EE end boss is a good example... if you're not into perching that is, and you like extra chests.