new players/old players

[Lallajulia]

i have hard times to understand about what needs of some mysterious, so called, "new players" so much talking around happening.

i`m pugging constantly, my lfm`s are up 98% of time i play. now, how many these "new players" i can observe per life? ten? fifteen? thirty? and most of them in korthos or harbor and after houses k, j and p f2p quests done, you will have very hard time to see even one per whole day of playing. then about what "new players" needs so many posts talk about? only what really matters in this game are veteran needs, i think. keep players base that game already have as much as possible. new blood will not be enough not matter what you do, instead... do not let bleed old blood out. if really needs to care about new blood incoming, then these early stages of game at levels 1-10, there can be done specific changes if need of difficutly or xp or whatever adjustments, but rest of the game should fit old, vet players needs.

we had champions. finally! something...
how long they stayed before became a parody of that name - champion? week? two weeks? do not remember. not too long. how many vets asked buff them, not nerf? in what group of players interests they were nerfed? those few players at low levels in harbor or market? have not seen "new players" in sands i even can not recall how many lives. or siber atoll? it is overpopulated with "new players" or only players in these quests are vets on their tr trains?
if so, about what kind of players we should care most? about mystic unseen "newcomers" in korthos or players who play every day and spend cash on game?

make game harder, not easier. reasonably harder. creatively harder. behavior scripts, not just resistances like of brick wall and hp like of mountain range.

[Blackheartox]

I agree with you opener, but if this thread stays up for a while, you will see how many people in this community dont agree and many dont want to get ouf of their safe zone, aka they dont want ddo hard or challenging

[slarden]

There are definitely new players in the game, but when you get into higher level EE runs and raids it's mostly vets. You'll find more new players running eveningstar EE because it's much easier than some of the higher level EEs.

I just ran EE Orchard chain with all vets including some completionists. I saw plenty of deaths and I was one-shot by a marut in the EE Vol optional with 54.34% damage reduction from PRR.

I was running lower level content and put up an lfm and I am fairly certain I was the only person in the party that wasn't new. Then again I am on Sarlona which is the current default server. Expect to see more new epic players on Sarlona in the coming months.

[Lallajulia]

I agree with you opener, but if this thread stays up for a while, you will see how many people in this community dont agree and many dont want to get ouf of their safe zone, aka they dont want ddo hard or challenging

i participate in open forum, i`m perfectly fine with opposite opinions. this year comes to end, you know. :) what i want is my opinion also is heard by designers, i hope so, at least. and discussion is fine in any way.

[Powskier]

yea ;they bent over for players who failed korthos crystal ...champions or something random is exactly what we needed! (besides lag monster death-goin to play ps hockey..#^&* this laggy game for a bit)

[JamnJD]

I'm going to disagree with the OP.

New players are just as important as vets, and everything that can be done to keep them around should be encouraged. If 20 ftp players start in this game and only 1 or 2 stick around after level 8, that's a bonus. It's 2 more players hopefully spending some money to help keep the game afloat.

Don't misunderstand me, I believe many vet players keep this game running as well. But the difference is that most vet players eventually leave, for multiple reasons. The game needs the new player, with the hook set in their mouth, and fresh money coming into the game.

Take a look at this forum today. Then go back and look at posts from 6 months ago. Then go back and look at posts a year ago, etc... Each time you look, you will see a different group of players posting. There are very few who stick around for the long haul, but you can see that most leave.

OP, you pug 98% of the time. If only the needs of the vet player are satisfied, you will have nobody to pug with in 6 months time.

...J

[Chai]

"New players" seems to be the entity people throw under the bus when they disagree with a change, but do not wish to voice their disagreement as their own. So they claim it will negatively affect new players the most.

In the case of champions, the most current issue the "new players" reasoning is being used in debate about, this is a false claim, because true new players do not have this expectation that they must be able to run elite, and are happy to start off on normal difficulty setting, which does not spawn champions in the first place. The expectation that elite remains the default difficulty is one of veteran players, not new players.

I think DDO should focus on new player retention as much as possible, as to them, this is an entirely new game.

[Monkey-Boy]

I think DDO should focus on new player retention as much as possible, as to them, this is an entirely new game.

And they have more spending potential as they haven't bought bag space and tomes yet.

But I don't think the OP is wrong, I'm not sure they are sticking around much pas the harbor.

What I don't understand is why making a compelling game for new players and vets is an either/or.

[Chai]

And they have more spending potential as they haven't bought bag space and tomes yet.

But I don't think the OP is wrong, I'm not sure they are sticking around much pas the harbor.

What I don't understand is why making a compelling game for new players and vets is an either/or.

Right, with 4 difficulty settings its an AND situation.

I believe encouraging people to put up their own LFMs has a lot to do with this. Remember that video those kids put up a few years ago, where they were running from the troll rare in waterworks for minutes at a time, only to pan their view area up and see him stuck above the doorway. It was practically Blair Troll Project, DDO Edition. That's the kind of fun people can have, even when they don't understand one iota about the game mechanics. Most vets would have walked in there, 1-2 shotted the troll, destroyed the loot....erm wait....most vets wouldn't walk in there, as the XP/min is horrible. :p

[Lonnbeimnech]

And they have more spending potential as they haven't bought bag space and tomes yet.

But I don't think the OP is wrong, I'm not sure they are sticking around much pas the harbor.

What I don't understand is why making a compelling game for new players and vets is an either/or.

There isn't.

The problem is veteran players that are casuals, that use the excuse that new players will be put off by a challenging encounter when they are soloing elite at level... So everything must be nerfed.

New players are more than likely f2p trying out the game, running solo on normal on a premade fighter or barbarian with a cleric hireling following them around.

[bartharok]

There isn't.

The problem is veteran players that are casuals, that use the excuse that new players will be put off by a challenging encounter when they are soloing elite at level... So everything must be nerfed.

New players are more than likely f2p trying out the game, running solo on normal on a premade fighter or barbarian with a cleric hireling following them around.

I concur. The first few months i soloed normal on a wild variety of dysfunctional toons, until i finally managed to pick up the courage to join a pug. And elites didnt become a norm for me until i went vip, which took several years.

[Connman]

When my wife and I started playing this game in 2009, we never did elite. It was too hard. My wife HATED elite. We would do things on normal, then hard, and if we really wanted to do elite we would group up with people. Also the first thing we did was go down and buy two headsets. It was the first time we had played an online game where you could actually talk to other people.

Now, she solos EE on her 20/8 Barb, EH is for ZERG XP, and normal is for flagging. Casual is for flagging when they are halfway through part 5 and you still need two more quests to flag :D .

Now I can say this with a fair amount of certainty, There are roughly 7 billion people on this planet. So you have 7 billion different expectations from people when they play a game. I know it is really hard for some people to understand that "New Players" are all different. Some will download the game and think it is too hard, too easy, just right, too laggy, et cetera. They are all different and have different tastes. CUSTOMER RETENTION IS MORE IMPORTANT than attracting new customers. People that are confirmed to give you money should have a higher priority than people who might give you money.

As far as if "it is too hard for new players to do elite and get free turbine points from the company they will leave" argument. Well I have to ask are these the customers you are looking for, NO, because their goal is to NEVER give you money. Elite was too hard for us, so we did levels that were appropriate. We tried farming turbine points but I decided my time would be better spent at work farming US currency that turbine is more than happy to exchange for turbine points. I got points a lot faster that way. If the only argument is "It's too hard to get free money from turbine" then it is a pretty lame argument.

Also I think that a great way to handle a lot of difficulty is do what they do already, just make some quests tough as nails, and others not so. That is why my favorite quests is Sins of attrition, that quest is STILL tough as nails, at level, on elite. Be prepared or be a stone, your choice.

And as far as Lallajulia, every time I see one of these LFM's, and yes they are a lot, I click them whenever I am in level. On that note, I the vet died to a Skeletal mage, I said I could handle all the casters but was wrong. Like a fool I skipped a shrine and my PLIS was depleted and I died. So I want to just say sorry for that Lallajulia.



i have hard times to understand about what needs of some mysterious, so called, "new players" so much talking around happening.

i`m pugging constantly, my lfm`s are up 98% of time i play. now, how many these "new players" i can observe per life? ten? fifteen? thirty? and most of them in korthos or harbor and after houses k, j and p f2p quests done, you will have very hard time to see even one per whole day of playing. then about what "new players" needs so many posts talk about? only what really matters in this game are veteran needs, i think. keep players base that game already have as much as possible. new blood will not be enough not matter what you do, instead... do not let bleed old blood out. if really needs to care about new blood incoming, then these early stages of game at levels 1-10, there can be done specific changes if need of difficutly or xp or whatever adjustments, but rest of the game should fit old, vet players needs.

we had champions. finally! something...
how long they stayed before became a parody of that name - champion? week? two weeks? do not remember. not too long. how many vets asked buff them, not nerf? in what group of players interests they were nerfed? those few players at low levels in harbor or market? have not seen "new players" in sands i even can not recall how many lives. or siber atoll? it is overpopulated with "new players" or only players in these quests are vets on their tr trains?
if so, about what kind of players we should care most? about mystic unseen "newcomers" in korthos or players who play every day and spend cash on game?

make game harder, not easier. reasonably harder. creatively harder. behavior scripts, not just resistances like of brick wall and hp like of mountain range.

[slarden]

They just need to consolidate everything to one server and then have a 2nd hardcore server that people can transfer to but can't transfer out of. Bump up the difficulty significantly on all difficulties.

[bartharok]

They just need to consolidate everything to one server and then have a 2nd hardcore server that people can transfer to but can't transfer out of. Bump up the difficulty significantly on all difficulties.

Still a bad idea.

[Skeen]

i have hard times to understand about what needs of some mysterious, so called, "new players" so much talking around happening.

i`m pugging constantly, my lfm`s are up 98% of time i play. now, how many these "new players" i can observe per life? ten? fifteen? thirty? and most of them in korthos or harbor and after houses k, j and p f2p quests done, you will have very hard time to see even one per whole day of playing. then about what "new players" needs so many posts talk about? only what really matters in this game are veteran needs, i think. keep players base that game already have as much as possible. new blood will not be enough not matter what you do, instead... do not let bleed old blood out. if really needs to care about new blood incoming, then these early stages of game at levels 1-10, there can be done specific changes if need of difficutly or xp or whatever adjustments, but rest of the game should fit old, vet players needs.

we had champions. finally! something...
how long they stayed before became a parody of that name - champion? week? two weeks? do not remember. not too long. how many vets asked buff them, not nerf? in what group of players interests they were nerfed? those few players at low levels in harbor or market? have not seen "new players" in sands i even can not recall how many lives. or siber atoll? it is overpopulated with "new players" or only players in these quests are vets on their tr trains?
if so, about what kind of players we should care most? about mystic unseen "newcomers" in korthos or players who play every day and spend cash on game?

make game harder, not easier. reasonably harder. creatively harder. behavior scripts, not just resistances like of brick wall and hp like of mountain range.

It depends what you call "new" players. I consider myself new as I still haven't done a lot of the content and probably couldn't find my way through many of the quests I run in pugs if there wasn't someone leading the way. I've been playing for a little over a year now, I only have 1 toon that I play with. With each TR and eTR I find myself getting stronger and the content I really struggled with is getting easier and easier. I'm all for original champions, mainly because I like seeing completionists getting one shotted and hearing them cry like a little babies. I can imagine with many past lives and eTR's the game would be somewhat boring as you are so powerful that almost nothing can stop you. I'm all for making the game harder, even now I find myself using non-optimal equipment for one reason or another because I know I will be ok in EE.

This game was hard when I first started playing as F2P. I died a lot going from 1-20 as a F2P character, even on normal difficulty. If you really want it to be harder we need to get rid of all the easy buttons like robots, monks, ridiculous multiclassing that you would never see in any honest campaign. LOL, a multiclassing Paladin or Monk, that was the most absurd thing I've heard of when I first started. Well robots are still the most ridiculous thing I've seen in DDO compared to D&D but I understand people need something they can pay for to make the game easier. Unfortunately Paladins (Bards?) have fallen into the easy button category now, so they gotta go too. Clearly the simplest thing to do would be to change servers, roll up a new character and have fun, but I understand power hungry triple heroic and epic completionists hate to give up all that power, so just roll a new toon. With all the twink gear it will still be super easy but would clearly offer more of a challenge then your character that in any normal campaign the DM would have forced retirement. It seems people are kind of like sheep with an endless supply of grain, they would eat themselves to death and right before they die wonder why is this happening to me.

"This is so easy", "Omg no way should I have died, this thing is so broke", "Once I finish these next 3 lives I'll be able to round up everything in this dungeon and instakill them in one shot"; these are all things I've heard when questing with people in the short time I've been playing, oftentimes all in the same quest. The funniest thing I've heard was a player (noob?) open a chest in Gwylan's Stand while the wizard/thief was disarming it and it killed the both of them. The Wizard/Thief went completely nuts and was screaming like a maniac on mic saying he hasn't died in 4 lives and he hates noobs and all this hilarious stuff. He said he would kick anyone in the party that picked up the other guys stone or rezed him and black list him too. That was the first R*****g***d guild player I ran with. It makes me smile when I see people that consider themselves so powerful that the only way they can die is because someone else gets them killed.

[phillymiket]

only what really matters in this game are veteran needs, i think. keep players base that game already have as much as possible. new blood will not be enough not matter

Sorry wrong.

Vets have already spent their money for the most part. (with exceptions o/c please don't post your recent purchases to show you are an exception)

New people have more earning potential. That's why most games that aren't sub only cater to them.

[Hydian]

I've been playing this game casually for at least a day or two now according to my profile. The issue isn't new player vs veteran nor is it hardcore vs casual. The issue is good player vs bad player.

When you see someone complaining about a feature and talking about, "How is the new player going to handle it?" what they are really saying is, "I can't handle it, so how would someone who isn't even as good as I am handle it?" What they are refusing to acknowledge (and what everybody else is telling them) is that they should be able to handle it if they are good enough to be running that level of content and if they can't handle it, then they shouldn't be running that level of content. We aren't entitled to succeed at everything the game has to offer. We need to be good enough to overcome the challenges set before us.

It is partly a mentality that stems from both WoW and other modern video games where no matter how good or bad you are at them, you are able to do everything and finish them. Just look at the VIP RIP thread where people are expecting that VIP status should not only grant them the opportunity to run elites, but the skills required to be successful at them. Prior to WoW, MMOs were harsh and unforgiving. Everybody didn't get to do endgame content and being at the top levels wasn't good enough to get you into raids where failure was not uncommon. The further back you go, the harsher it was. Early Everquest included griffons that spawned in newbie zones (East Commons) at random that would cut a swath of destruction if one wasn't vigilant. Sand Giants patrolled the beaches of Oasis while people in their early teens killed crocs and hid out on the pillars in the water. Not being good at what you do could wipe not only your party, but potentially half of the zone. DDO is no where near as difficult as playing an EQ bard was back in the day (no idea what it would be like now, but that is still the most challenging gameplay experience that I've enjoyed to this day...I would two box a shadowknight and a cleric on days that I felt like being lazy) but it is not easy either. Combat done right requires some skill, character building requires a lot of trial and error and/or research, and gearing your toon out properly is paramount. If you have mastered those things, normal and hard content should be simple and even elite won't be too much of a challenge, no matter how long you have played nor if you are hardcore or casual.

It is also partly expectations and overestimating our abilities. My guild moved on to other games 8 years ago, but I still play when I'm not playing other things. I solo because I'm honestly a bit anti social and I also tend to just jump on for an hour here and there (one of the reasons I still play DDO...I can jump on and run something then jump off). I usually run on Hard even though it tends to be too easy for me because I find Elite to be too much time and effort for the return. Part of that stems from my not wanting to bother with ship buffs, hirelings, TRs, and a few other things that would probably make my life easier, but that's my choice and I'm ok with that. I *can* run Elites and I *have* run elites, but I generally choose not to. It is faster and easier for me to skip a lot of the prep work and run on Hard so I end up accomplishing more in my playing window. It isn't my expectation that I should be able to run Elite content solo, even though I mostly can. It shouldn't be anyone's expectation that Elite content should be easy enough for everybody to succeed at.

The complaining about champions confused me at first. I run a lot of alts and did a bunch of testing, mostly on hard, all solo. Champions weren't any harder to roll over than any other trash mobs, they just had a few more hitpoints and occasionally some nifty debuff. The only real difference they've added to the game for me (especially since they were toned down) is that they are now on my aggro list right below casters. I can only assume that either they are scaling disproportionately to the rest of the dungeon or that people were simply barely (or not) good enough to be running the content level they were at. Dungeons are balanced at 4 players, so there is no reason why a party of 5 or 6 should have any trouble running content that they are actually capable of running.

The problem isn't DDO or the Devs. The problem is the players and their sense of entitlement. This game isn't WoW and there is no win button. And there shouldn't be. but that doesn't mean that new players would be turned off as there is a path of progression to that difficult content for those who have an interest in, you know, playing the game.

Just my 2cp

[Oxarhamar]

Even if "new players" we're used in some arguments against champions.

champions were nerfed in response from current players "vets" who did not welcome the random mechanics of one shot or walls of HP.


As for me Champions were boring from day one with little to no reward for most and the only challenge added was maybe a random death or a prolonged HP bloat beatdown.

[psykopeta]

I, and lots of "vets" players (all premium btw) once we got all the packs, is really hard for turbine to make us spend money again

in my case i love the prepurchase stuff, but with how the things have gone after motu... i highly doubt i will spend money again in ddo

so, i think, turbine should aime to new players, cause they need to buy inv space, bank, packs, classes, races, etc

i don't

also, turbine should do something with champs, boost em as before the nerf, of course (can't see the relation between max difficulty and new player, the only relation i can see is people has got used to faceroll EE when that wasn't supposed to happen, i mean, in DC almost every build can solo every quest, as example)

but they also have to remove the "dumb random factor"

i mean...u know the dog you find in the quest "friends in low places"? yes, the one in the beginning that is near his owner's corpse... i've seen it today as a champ

or, do you know the rats you can find in fleshmaker? yes, u guessed it right

and lots of silly examples that show this is a good idea AWFULLY AND POORLY implemented, more in the way of "here you go, deal with it, i don't care the results, i don't know what does shame means" nothing i would expect from a professional

i mean, in my, or whatever company, that attitude would mean getting fired

btw happy new year all!!

PS: yes, when players that aren't new, claim to be representing new players, that's just a disguised whine
PS2: as a real new player posted several times that his friends (cause new players don't claim to be able to solo elite quests with gimp toons) were having fun with the champions before the nerf, sad thing is they had the feeling that hard was too easy and elite was too hard, so the current "hard" difficulty should be placed on the current "normal" diff, so there would be a progression in the difficulty of the quests, not that insane jump you can see most times (also, quest mechanics in elite should be different from rest diffs, always, so the quest can be tougher without needing to add 924723847293 hp and mobs and red da, and such fake difficulty solutions)

[goodspeed]

hazing is fun.

[phillymiket]

The problem isn't DDO or the Devs. The problem is the players and their sense of entitlement.

It's interesting. I think this issue is tapping into peoples feelings about 'entitlement' or 'elitism' and those feelings are clouding the issue on both sides.

That thread with the VIP RIP was a perfect example.

I went into that thing with the full intention of simply helping the guy.

I posted step by step instructions, Breagan actually ran the thing...twice!.

OP got through it and the thread should have been a very short success story...

But then he got all... then everyone else got all... then I got all...

Pretty soon it was just a big mess with everybody pushed into a pitched Uberz -vs- Casuals battle.

I guess some people really do just want an easy button it seems, but that doesn't mean all criticism is based on entitlement or that all people or even most want an Easy button.

You are over simplifying the issue by saying its "good players -vs- bad players" and patronizing anyone with a problem with Champions as being "bad" or "entitled".

That would be as incorrect as it would be for me to latch on to the fact that I know certain individuals here are flat out dup'ing, exploiting cheaters who have stolen undue advantage and now telling others to run Normal.

Does that fact mean I can take those most extreme examples and project that onto you or any other honest person who simply disagrees with me? No, of course not.

It's complicated. I don't feel I am entitled or want an easy button so please don't project people who do upon me even tough such people clearly exist.

I just want proper balance, a welcoming starter area, and for DDO to have features that aren't riddled with unpredictable and embarrassing bugs.
I am as equally confused as you by the argument. I'd have thought everyone would clearly see the flaws of choosing this method of balancing over the others available.

/shrug


btw happy new year all!!)

You too! :-D

Happish Freekin' New yearsh evvy < hick > evvyone! Wooooooo!

/thump

[Hydian]

Even if "new players" we're used in some arguments against champions.

champions were nerfed in response from current players "vets" who did not welcome the random mechanics of one shot or walls of HP.


As for me Champions were boring from day one with little to no reward for most and the only challenge added was maybe a random death or a prolonged HP bloat beatdown.

Wasn't arguing against the nerf and I agree that they are little more than a big bag of hitpoints (hence my comment about them being no harder to roll over than other trash mobs). I said as much in the thread on champions and gave suggestions for fixing that. I also gave a suggestion for the reward angle, though in their current form I'm not sure that they really warrant much of a reward. I barely even register them and they certainly don't slow me down unless I happen to get three or four of them in a group which is extremely rare. Even then, they aren't enough of a challenge to be a real issue.

The fact that it was "vets" complaining about it was really my point. We had vets complaining that champions were too hard. Not just that there wasn't enough reward (though we did see plenty of ridiculous calls for named loot for killing what amounts to fat trash mobs) or that it was random, but that they made the runs too difficult to complete. Yes, the one shotting needed to be dealt with (and it was as far as I know, but then I never saw anything even approaching that kind of damage), but we are still seeing the complaints post-nerf. My position has been that if I, as a casual (and quite honestly, lazy) player, have no issues dealing with champions, then these self proclaimed hardcore players shouldn't be having issues with them either. If they are, then they are playing at the wrong difficulty setting and need to turn it down just like they do in the other games that they play. New players will be fine as they shouldn't be playing on hard or elite anyway...champions or no champions...at least, not until they have some idea of what they are doing. It is the vets who feel entitled to be able to auto win on elite even if they aren't good enough to earn it.

[Hydian]

You are over simplifying the issue by saying its "good players -vs- bad players" and patronizing anyone with a problem with Champions as being "bad" or "entitled".

Not any problem. Not at all. I don't think that having an issue with the randomization is in the same arena. Nor the (lack of) rewards. Nor the fact that champions are no more than a bag of hitpoints and not at all interesting nor challenging. I don't agree with all of those things, but they aren't the same as the complaining that champions are simply too hard as they are and that hard and elite should be easy enough for everybody to do, no matter what (which was the exact argument put forth in the VIP DOA thread).


I just want proper balance, a welcoming starter area, and for DDO to have features that aren't riddled with unpredictable and embarrassing bugs.
I am as equally confused as you by the argument. I'd have thought everyone would clearly see the flaws of choosing this method of balancing over the others available.

I don't disagree with any of this. I don't think that champions was the best method available for adding new challenges. That being said, I think that it can be massaged into a pretty decent mechanic, but the overwhelming majority of posts against the idea seem to stem from people who simply feel entitled to run hard or elite, but don't have what it takes to do so. I just get the feeling that none of those people have ever played an MMO made prior to WoW and their easy button (not bashing WoW, but it was a real shift in philosophy for better or worse).

[phillymiket]

Not any problem. Not at all. I don't think that having an issue with the randomization is in the same arena. Nor the (lack of) rewards. Nor the fact that champions are no more than a bag of hitpoints and not at all interesting nor challenging. I don't agree with all of those things, but they aren't the same as the complaining that champions are simply too hard as they are and that hard and elite should be easy enough for everybody to do, no matter what

Cool. Me too.
See we actually have a lot of common ground.
I also don't want Elite so easy even a caveman could do it.
I had to repeat quests and learn how to beat them on Elite back when I was new and my chain mail was rusty but my dreams were high.


(which was the exact argument put forth in the VIP DOA thread).

Yeah by that guy.
There was also a guy who wanted to be able to flag against any 1st lifers because he was sick of noobz costing him 10%
They're is plenty of extreme people to go around on both sides.


I think that it can be massaged into a pretty decent mechanic

I think it can be too. It's an interesting idea with some tragic flaws.
But will it?
No.
It will stay in pretty much it's current form.


but the overwhelming majority of posts against the idea seem to stem from people who simply feel entitled to run hard or elite, but don't have what it takes to do so. I just get the feeling that none of those people have ever played an MMO made prior to WoW and their easy button (not bashing WoW, but it was a real shift in philosophy for better or worse).
I don't see it that way.
I see a few extreme people on both sides and the overwhelming majority of people being reasonable and truly wanting whats best for themselves and the game, but in disagreement on whether Champions are good or fun or whatever.

[slarden]

Still a bad idea.

Of course you would think so - because your goal is to increase the difficulty for others and not to create more challenge for yourself.

[Oxarhamar]

Wasn't arguing against the nerf and I agree that they are little more than a big bag of hitpoints (hence my comment about them being no harder to roll over than other trash mobs). I said as much in the thread on champions and gave suggestions for fixing that. I also gave a suggestion for the reward angle, though in their current form I'm not sure that they really warrant much of a reward. I barely even register them and they certainly don't slow me down unless I happen to get three or four of them in a group which is extremely rare. Even then, they aren't enough of a challenge to be a real issue.

The fact that it was "vets" complaining about it was really my point. We had vets complaining that champions were too hard. Not just that there wasn't enough reward (though we did see plenty of ridiculous calls for named loot for killing what amounts to fat trash mobs) or that it was random, but that they made the runs too difficult to complete. Yes, the one shotting needed to be dealt with (and it was as far as I know, but then I never saw anything even approaching that kind of damage), but we are still seeing the complaints post-nerf. My position has been that if I, as a casual (and quite honestly, lazy) player, have no issues dealing with champions, then these self proclaimed hardcore players shouldn't be having issues with them either. If they are, then they are playing at the wrong difficulty setting and need to turn it down just like they do in the other games that they play. New players will be fine as they shouldn't be playing on hard or elite anyway...champions or no champions...at least, not until they have some idea of what they are doing. It is the vets who feel entitled to be able to auto win on elite even if they aren't good enough to earn it.



I see we are in similar views.

I think champs were fine before the nerf outside of the occasional HP wall. It was the rewards I found lopsided due to the way the Devs designed the loot drops. Quests like DA LVL 23 EE were dropping many chests & quests like Wheloon, Stormhorns,& ENecro were dropping little or no chests.

I think the rewards need balancing and the rediculously HP walls need to be removed. Nothing fun or challenging about beating down a mob with 7X normal HP for random reasons. Boring.


I did and do still think low level champs could be balanced a bit lower and ramp up as we go along for heroics.

[bartharok]

Of course you would think so - because your goal is to increase the difficulty for others and not to create more challenge for yourself.

Unfortunately, you still have no psi-powers, so you will be forced to actually converse, instead of reading minds.

In other words, a total miss.

[Powskier]

hazing is fun.

and it can be criminal too;)

[SirValentine]

do not let bleed old blood out.


Good plan.



in what group of players interests they were nerfed?


So that all the old blood that came on the forums and complained about them would not bleed out.



creatively harder. behavior scripts, not just resistances like of brick wall and hp like of mountain range.


That would be nice. "Challenge" that is just bigger numbers annoys me.

[Hydian]

I think champs were fine before the nerf outside of the occasional HP wall. It was the rewards I found lopsided due to the way the Devs designed the loot drops. Quests like DA LVL 23 EE were dropping many chests & quests like Wheloon, Stormhorns,& ENecro were dropping little or no chests.

I immediately thought of this when it became clear that oranges were dropping chests at a pretty good clip pre-nerf. It quickly became apparent that quests with a lot of orange trash mobs would suddenly be huge sources for trash loot, festival coins, etc (I even got a tome out of one of those chests) especially since it wasn't clear if those chests would ransack. While not a big deal to people who have been around for a while, this would be a huge boost to newer players completely out of proportion to the old ransacking of chests that was common back in the day to generate cash and random drops.

It was another reason that I put forward the idea of a collectible drop from champions that could be turned in for rewards (I'm sure that others did as well). That helps to smooth out the rewards between quests. But primarily, I thought that it would give you something tangible without needing to give you a significant reward just for killing a single fat trash mob. I like the idea of consumables and clickies with effects that aren't otherwise readily available.