Showing respect your fellow player

[Sofianna]

My main alt is Seraphicus (Human FvS) from a very long standing guild SAGE. I have been a player on Devourer, EU Server since 2006. Most importantly, I am a female player (in Ghallanda).

Since my close-knit guild stopped playing, I have had the opportunity to meet many players through active pugging. I have made many new friends, formed my own close-knit channel of people whom I call friends in game. They show me respect 24/7, 365 days a year. Because, like them, I am a avid player in DDO.

I have many positive feedback, those people who have been kind enough to compliment, I will always remember you. And a woman's memory is rather long-standing; or dangerous as some might put it.

But sadly, I have had, also, slack thrown at me, simply because I am female. Let me cite some examples :

"You're a girl, what do you know"
"Go run along beach, that's what you're good for"

and some more which if printed here, would bring forth this post itself removed because they are just so low and disgusting.

Am I griefing ? Am I a feminist ?

I don't feel I am because I have put up with some of the most lowest RL people who feel that a woman is nothing more useful than being in a kitchen. P/S : I always retort with "Well if your woman's always in the kitchen then you definitely don't know what to do as a man".

I have had friends tell me :
"Oh just ignore them. Don't let them get the better of you or they win". or
"Is that it ? I thought it was serious when you said you were upset".
"To play the game you need to have a thick skin. Otherwise, don't play."

DDO (and any other MMORPG games) is dominated by majority male players. But, at NO point should we disrespect ANY other human being simply because of gender, race, sexual orientation, IQ level or age. Behind that computer screen IS a human being OMG.

I speak especially for the female players out there, who encounter griefing and slack just because we are female. All I can say is : hold your dignity high and be proud to be woman. Don't let a game or anyone else tell you otherwise.

Narrow minded callous comments callously passed targeted at anyone should never be dismissed, don't ignore how your fellow player feels, don't dismiss us "just-because".

It was only recently in a raid I encountered 2 such players that I decided to write this post; when no one else in that raid felt they wanted to stand up for me, not say anything at all in my defence. I am tired of being silent and unheard. I am woman, hear me ROAR !

2015 is approaching. Stay the REAL person you are, fellow gamers, be true to your principles, treat everyone with love and respect. We shouldn't need a forum thread to remind us to, but sometimes maybe we do. Stay real and have a good gaming 2015 ahead.

C.

Alts : Seraphicus / Caireen / Nehalennia / Cyhiraeth / Antiopeia / Atlanteia / Calliopea / Nefyn / Setlocenia

[JOTMON]

If someone is offending you..
[rightclick] report player.
from what I have seen DDO is pretty good at dealing with harassment

While I am not a female.. there are several that play on Argo and even families that play.
Our channels are full of EE endgame female players, even in LFM/PUG runs I don't see players criticize/judge a female player for their gender.. they would be dropped/blocked pretty quickly if the did.

I am sure there are discriminations occurring, even though we are in modern times there are many people that have been raised with medieval mindsets.
These people generally get educated relatively quickly, or leave the game... from what I see there is not much tolerance for that kid of activity here.

[Sofianna]

If someone is offending you..
[rightclick] report player.
from what I have seen DDO is pretty good at dealing with harassment


A ticket was reported, as with all my other similar activity related tickets against racism, sexism and cyber-bulling in game. And the only reply is the standard reply stating they will deal with the player(s) reported.

I still always see those players in game, even following the ticket reported; they remain in-game actively playing. To me, I do not see the problem tackled. Devs, how do I know you take bullying seriously, or not at all ?

[MadCookieQueen]

Let's take a moment of honesty...women tend to be more snarky against other female players. We know we are hardcore but really don't want to deal with the "girlfriend who plays" or the "chick is only there to pike because she flirts with the guild leader". So many times in groups with other women that are unknown, the first thought usually goes along those lines.

Many times they are validated and some times they aren't. I like the times they aren't and have groaned when they are. I admit I've gone off on a couple of the more useless ones. (Usually I'm in one of those modes to begin with and my tolerance is on short supply)

So before the blame is assigned to all the males for such things, we have to look at the flip side. We chicks tend to be harder on our gender than they could ever be. Why? Because of two things...women inherently have issues with each other, it goes with the hormones and two we seriously don't want a flake to bring us a bad name as good players. One ditzy piker and people will become jaded towards a female player for a while.

I admit I read this post and started rolling my eyes at it but I get the point. I just despise the whole automatic gender association, I feel the same way about race. In the end I think it makes us look weak, especially to own gender to throw that up first and foremost. This is where femi-nazis get this all wrong, you want to empower people to be fairer to each other, leave the ovaries at home and speak to the actual issue at hand. The fact is, some people are just plain jerks and your gender has nothing to do with it, as soon as we pull the chick card...they rattled our cage and it's game over.

Should we be nicer to each other as human beings? You betcha! Should we have a bit more respect for the feelings of the human behind the screen? Yep. Do we all know this? That we do.


so in the end what's the problem?

It's called the human condition and it has no gender, race, religion, sexual orientation assigned to it...it just simply is, human. We can strive to be better humans and get over the human condition, the first step is the hardest...leave the qualifiers at home and simply look at the issue.

[Inoukchuk]

What a shame. Some of my favorite players are women, I would be very sad if this kind of behavior chased them off.

The reality is, anytime you get more than about 10 people in one place, especially random people, 1 or more is almost certain to be a jerk. In a game with thousands of players on each server, we will all inevitably run into our fare share of jerks, regardless of what demographic we each fall in. Likely, they would have been a jerk to you regardless of your gender, being female just made it easier for them to pick a button to push. Hopefully you won't let the few bad apples, in any venue, dissuade you from pursuing the things you find enriching, important, or just fun.

[Inoukchuk]

Let's take a moment of honesty...women tend to be more snarky against other female players. We know we are hardcore but really don't want to deal with the "girlfriend who plays" or the "chick is only there to pike because she flirts with the guild leader". So many times in groups with other women that are unknown, the first thought usually goes along those lines.

Many times they are validated and some times they aren't. I like the times they aren't and have groaned when they are. I admit I've gone off on a couple of the more useless ones. (Usually I'm in one of those modes to begin with and my tolerance is on short supply)

So before the blame is assigned to all the males for such things, we have to look at the flip side. We chicks tend to be harder on our gender than they could ever be. Why? Because of two things...women inherently have issues with each other, it goes with the hormones and two we seriously don't want a flake to bring us a bad name as good players. One ditzy piker and people will become jaded towards a female player for a while.

I admit I read this post and started rolling my eyes at it but I get the point. I just despise the whole automatic gender association, I feel the same way about race. In the end I think it makes us look weak, especially to own gender to throw that up first and foremost. This is where femi-nazis get this all wrong, you want to empower people to be fairer to each other, leave the ovaries at home and speak to the actual issue at hand. The fact is, some people are just plain jerks and your gender has nothing to do with it, as soon as we pull the chick card...they rattled our cage and it's game over.

Should we be nicer to each other as human beings? You betcha! Should we have a bit more respect for the feelings of the human behind the screen? Yep. Do we all know this? That we do.


so in the end what's the problem?

It's called the human condition and it has no gender, race, religion, sexual orientation assigned to it...it just simply is, human. We can strive to be better humans and get over the human condition, the first step is the hardest...leave the qualifiers at home and simply look at the issue.

+1, good post

[JOTMON]

A ticket was reported, as with all my other similar activity related tickets against racism, sexism and cyber-bulling in game. And the only reply is the standard reply stating they will deal with the player(s) reported.

I still always see those players in game, even following the ticket reported; they remain in-game actively playing. To me, I do not see the problem tackled. Devs, how do I know you take bullying seriously, or not at all ?


its a tough topic,
I would say in general players are more open minded here.. DDO tends to draw a more mature crowd.
There will always be people that players will conflict with, and I am sure they will not be able to cure every male of all our failings.

you should be less concerned about seeing them in game, not everyone will be auto banned because they may have offended you.
Just because you still see them in game doesn't mean they didn't get a warning or reprimand.
If they really have put you off.. then you should be /squelch ing them.


A lot of guys talk trash, but that s all it is .. talk..
Some girls are very "girly" and easily offended by any comment even if its not intentional or directed.. most guys just say words and there is no meaning or intent behind them that some girls may read too deeply into.
Some girls could make me cry in a war of words..
narrowing down directed intentional attacks is what needs to be identified and dealt with.. like the stalker types..

Some aspects of grow a thicker skin may or may not be relevant.. at the end of the day its just a game, so you shouldn't take anything personally.
The good thing about this game is you don't have to play with people you don't like., a simple .. /squelch.

[Sofianna]

I would like to add that I, in no way provoked nor cat clawed at anyone to warrant such feelings that drove me to write the post. PST in game I will send you a screenie as proof if desired.

All I wanted to put across was simply : respect people, don't diss "shrug" them, be mindful about what you say and how you want to put your message across.

Yes, this may be a game, yes I do know the difference with RL and in-game and yes, squelch is my best friend.

Lest we forge, the point being, there is a human being behind computer screen.

[DedAngel]

Many guys talk smack with their guy friends. Then they make the mistake of getting comfortable with a woman friend and talk smack to her, thinking they are being friendly and treating her as an equal and one of the guys.

She thinks it's harassment based on her gender, gets him black-listed, reported, banned, then sends an email to his wife, and calls his job and reports him to his boss, and writes an op-ed piece to Jezebel about her triumph over misogynistic persecution, then updates her blog...

[MadCookieQueen]

Many guys talk smack with their guy friends. Then they make the mistake of getting comfortable with a woman friend and talk smack to her, thinking they are being friendly and treating her as an equal and one of the guys.

She thinks it's harassment based on her gender, gets him black-listed, reported, banned, then sends an email to his wife, and calls his job and reports him to his boss, and writes an op-ed piece to Jezebel about her triumph over misogynistic persecution, then updates her blog...

This might be a bit over the top, but that's probably the point. Also most of us girl gamers know when a friend of ours is just giving us flack like the rest of the group, no gender assignment needed. Of course, like any good friend we can and will shoot it right back at you ;p

I personally think that Jezebel is one of the worse things to happen to women on the internet. I avoid it like the plague and have been happier for it ^^

[Seikojin]

I have seen poor behavior before and I have seen poor behavior get some form of punishment as well. From both sides of the screen (as support and as a player).

To the OP: Those people who harassed you and were reported; did they continue to harass you a week after you reported them? If not, then I think something was said to make them back off. If so, they are worse than someone who gets a GM notice saying you have a strike against you, stop being a rude player, and stops harassing people for a while.

As a male player, I typically get no harassment. I said typically because there have been some cases where women were making passes at me in a non-rp fashion and didn't take no for an answer. I squelched them for a month. That stopped that. I also had guys made passes at me and didn't get the clue either. Again, squelching them for a month stopped the passes.

I figure is someone sees me standing right in front of them, they try to send a sexual emote or some sort of banter, and get an auto reply or nothing back, then they get the clue that I squelched them.

In once case someone who was squelched, then unsquelched, saw me, sent a tell, I replied back, and they eventually asked why I squelched them. I told them in a straight, non-offensive way that they were harassing me in an inappropriate manner and they apologized. We didn't become besties or bros, but they thanked me because not knowing is a pain I know very well and they did too.

Overall, I try to give players respect and ignore 90% of the banter that I take as too much for any given situation. So far in game and in life, it has helped get past a lot of problems.

As far as gender bias: There always will be. And this will sound sexist. But it is pure biology. In the primal sense, men are always ready to reproduce. Their hormones are always on. This is not true for all men, but 99% of them it is. Women have a fluctuating hormone level for reproductive purposes. As such, their whole outlook on everything is different then a mans. This isn't true for all women, but 99% of them. Because of these two differences, men always come off more aggressively when it comes to women and reproductive activities, where as women have been in a sexual world when their mind and body was not seeking reproduction. And because of that, men typically are crude and base and women are sophisticated and subtle. Also women tend to filter their emotions and actions because of this. Whereas men don't see a reason to do that because of their hormone state, and typically don't.

We all have the power to control our behavior and produce a positive experience in game with other people. Even if someone is a rotten apple, diarrhea, sailor mouth.

[henttarl]

Many guys talk smack with their guy friends. Then they make the mistake of getting comfortable with a woman friend and talk smack to her, thinking they are being friendly and treating her as an equal and one of the guys.

She thinks it's harassment based on her gender, gets him black-listed, reported, banned, then sends an email to his wife, and calls his job and reports him to his boss, and writes an op-ed piece to Jezebel about her triumph over misogynistic persecution, then updates her blog...

I think that the main problem is some of the guys doing that aren't exactly "friends" of the abused ppl. pugger isn't the same as friend.

[TrinityTurtle]

OP: The people who tell you "Is that all" or "don't play if you don't have a thick skin" are actually part of the problem. Everyone should be able to expect basic civility from others around them. And the constant "it's nothing" or "you don't belong here if you find unpleasant behavior offensive" validates people acting badly because the group as a whole doesn't want to stand up for doing something right, when it's easier to say just ignore it and make no real consequences for people who behave poorly. Although some I think confuse sexism/racism and trolling, where one is designed deliberately to get a rise out of others and the other is an ingrained belief that other people are less purely based on the gender/race/both they were born, and treated as such.

Report, squelch, and do not put up with it. Eventually it will get better, but not until we as a whole say enough and make it stop.


Let's take a moment of honesty...women tend to be more snarky against other female players. We know we are hardcore but really don't want to deal with the "girlfriend who plays" or the "chick is only there to pike because she flirts with the guild leader". So many times in groups with other women that are unknown, the first thought usually goes along those lines.

Many times they are validated and some times they aren't. I like the times they aren't and have groaned when they are. I admit I've gone off on a couple of the more useless ones. (Usually I'm in one of those modes to begin with and my tolerance is on short supply)

I'm sorry, but this is not okay. Even if they are the girlfriend trying to do something together with her boy, or here to flirt with someone, they are still human beings. It's okay to decide not to interact with them, but to be snarky? No, that's okay. Basic civility when in a group with them is important regardless of our private opinions of the motivations of others. Squelch and ignore them would be best here also.


I admit I read this post and started rolling my eyes at it but I get the point. I just despise the whole automatic gender association, I feel the same way about race. In the end I think it makes us look weak, especially to own gender to throw that up first and foremost. This is where femi-nazis get this all wrong, you want to empower people to be fairer to each other, leave the ovaries at home and speak to the actual issue at hand. The fact is, some people are just plain jerks and your gender has nothing to do with it, as soon as we pull the chick card...they rattled our cage and it's game over.

Saying it's not okay to treat me poorly because she's a woman is NOT playing the chick card. When a person in a group suddenly starts treating me differently than the others (either nastily or as if I'm stupid and need to be cared for every minute) in the group the minute I talk on mic and my gender is known, that is not 'that person is just a jerk'. And our gender has everything to do with it. Doing the whole "Oh, can I have that item because I'm just a girl" would be playing the 'chick' card. But expecting basic manners is everyone's right as a human being, and being a woman, not a 'chick'.

[Daerius of the Blessed Blades]

Most of the jerks who act that way probably just had their ‘hind parts’ handed to them by one of the MILLIONS of girl gamers in Halo, Call of Duty, etc, and they are taking their aggression out on you. Sorry that happens, but there are players out there (shameless plug for my guild, circleofnight.com) that don’t give a darn if you are male, female, transgender, etc – don’t be a jack**, play hard, and have fun and you’re ALWAYS welcome ;)

[Damian]

I wish i was there to defend you C, in this day and age, this has to stop. I am privileged to be part of that closed knit channel and I really enjoy grouping with you and appreciate your patience with me and my optionals :-)

I wish that everyone would respect our fellow players since DDO needs all the players it can get (and stay) to be there a long time.

It is in all our best interest in the end.

Vyral (never L28 for more than 5 seconds)

[Sofianna]

OP: The people who tell you "Is that all" or "don't play if you don't have a thick skin" are actually part of the problem. Everyone should be able to expect basic civility from others around them. And the constant "it's nothing" or "you don't belong here if you find unpleasant behavior offensive" validates people acting badly because the group as a whole doesn't want to stand up for doing something right, when it's easier to say just ignore it and make no real consequences for people who behave poorly. ...
Report, squelch, and do not put up with it. Eventually it will get better, but not until we as a whole say enough and make it stop.

Thank you for validating my feelings, that is precisely what I want my fellow players to understand. Life is complicated as it is, the game is an avenue for us for all sorts of reasons, whatever they may be. Let's dignify our actions and keep it real and meaningful. And HAVE FUN !

[Kawai]

community sprinkled w/#Misogynerds.
sprinkled, i say, as a few, definitely not majority.

although, anyone who honestly believes gender harassment is an artifact of past is srsly naive!
--one only has ta watch 5 min of SSSniperwolf & see how it is today, & totally clsing in @2015!!

many gamerguyz r jerks. fact o' life. :|

i was totally put off using Mic, in this game we all luv, until our Guild (w/ Four fem within) joined up with other Guilds @Channel.
-now all use Mic's without bs or harrassment.

but... i most deff feel for those, like Op, who sometimes still have2 endure.

[Inoukchuk]

Many guys talk smack with their guy friends. Then they make the mistake of getting comfortable with a woman friend and talk smack to her, thinking they are being friendly and treating her as an equal and one of the guys.

She thinks it's harassment based on her gender, gets him black-listed, reported, banned, then sends an email to his wife, and calls his job and reports him to his boss, and writes an op-ed piece to Jezebel about her triumph over misogynistic persecution, then updates her blog...

This can also be true, for sure. Humor doesn't always translate in chat (or even over voice for some), so some good natured ribbing could be completely misconstrued, and some people (not saying this is true of the OP) are prone to assuming things are race/gender related or prone to failing to see sarcastic humor and take things too seriously. No way for me to know here. I remember when I was right out of high school and working as a grocery checker, I had a black man come into my line dressed very professionally. I was friendly and polite, he was cold and unresponsive. I adjusted and stuck to the professional aspects, asked what kind of bags he wanted and was ignored. He refused to respond to anything, like I was beneath his notice, but I blew it off un-phased, quickly and professionally finished the transaction and moved on. Later I get approached by my manager who tells me the guy accused me of being a racist because I put his change on the counter instead of handing it to his hand.... my jaw dropped in disbelief. I guess the guy was a lawyer and wanted me to be fired, my managers of course knew he was totally off base and assured me they were talking to me strictly out of obligation and no punishment would occur because they knew me well enough personally and professionally to know I was nothing like he described. Some people will believe what they want to believe and see what they want/expect to see regardless of if there is any validity to it.

Point being, people on the giving end should be respectful and try to recognize and respect boundaries. People on the receiving end need to recognize that the world is full of D-bags and we need to learn to ignore the mostly harmless ones and deal appropriately (like reporting) with the ones that cross a line. And give the benefit of the doubt when possible.

[MadCookieQueen]

I'm sorry, but this is not okay. Even if they are the girlfriend trying to do something together with her boy, or here to flirt with someone, they are still human beings. It's okay to decide not to interact with them, but to be snarky? No, that's okay. Basic civility when in a group with them is important regardless of our private opinions of the motivations of others. Squelch and ignore them would be best here also.

Did I say it was okay? Did I call them less than human beings? No, I said the first thought when a female player sees another female player tends to run along those veins. I never said it was okay or excusable, but not all offending female bashers are male, we can be just as bad to our own gender. To say otherwise is being dishonest.

Yes, ignoring and squelching would be ideal, but that doesn't take the sting away, especially not if it was something particularly vile, does it?




Saying it's not okay to treat me poorly because she's a woman is NOT playing the chick card. When a person in a group suddenly starts treating me differently than the others (either nastily or as if I'm stupid and need to be cared for every minute) in the group the minute I talk on mic and my gender is known, that is not 'that person is just a jerk'. And our gender has everything to do with it. Doing the whole "Oh, can I have that item because I'm just a girl" would be playing the 'chick' card. But expecting basic manners is everyone's right as a human being, and being a woman, not a 'chick'.

When we come across someone being a jerk, the normal assumption is that they are being a jerk because of gender, race, etc and not that they are jerk. Sometimes that's the case...many times it's just a bad human. End of story.

When we add in the qualifier that it absolutely must be for the sole reason because of my gender, then yes we are playing the ovaries card. Also the whole "well I'm a girl, give me the shiny thing" is not even playing a chick card...that's playing a little princess card...whole different level of issues. Either way...throwing our gender around like that is not a good idea, it actually demeans us. There's a reason why women don't get taken seriously, because we train others to believe that they absolutely must behave along a clear cut path in accordance to whatever nonsense Jezebel is reporting on this week or they are evil vile people.

Our gender rarely has ANYTHING to do with it, bad humans and uncivilized humans have EVERYTHING to do with it. Not every insult towards a woman is the response of sexism. Not EVERY guy is sexist. Not every act of stupidity has sexism laced behind it. To keep thinking that it must be that way is selling things short. It's looking for a battle that simply might not be there. We keep looking for this vile sexist beast and think that all men are prone to it. Fun fact...most of them are not and we need to stop treating them like they constantly are.

[dunklezhan]

@OP: sucks that there's still enough people out there acting this way for anyone to feel they need to mention this. But if it's happening, it needs mentioning or it won't stop happening. Even those of us usually grown-up enough not to need to be told why we ought to all behave like decent human beings can use a reminder from time to time that there's people who apparently do need to be told such things, hard though it may be to get through to them. So continue to bring it up, don't feel bad about doing so, and trust your judgement about what is and is not harrassment/inappropriate behaviour.


Play on...

[Lonnbeimnech]

Thank you for validating my feelings, that is precisely what I want my fellow players to understand. Life is complicated as it is, the game is an avenue for us for all sorts of reasons, whatever they may be. Let's dignify our actions and keep it real and meaningful. And HAVE FUN !

http://jamiewalkerball.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/validated1.jpg

[MeliCat]

My main alt is Seraphicus (Human FvS) from a very long standing guild SAGE. I have been a player on Devourer, EU Server since 2006. Most importantly, I am a female player (in Ghallanda).

Since my close-knit guild stopped playing, I have had the opportunity to meet many players through active pugging. I have made many new friends, formed my own close-knit channel of people whom I call friends in game. They show me respect 24/7, 365 days a year. Because, like them, I am a avid player in DDO.

I have many positive feedback, those people who have been kind enough to compliment, I will always remember you. And a woman's memory is rather long-standing; or dangerous as some might put it.

But sadly, I have had, also, slack thrown at me, simply because I am female. Let me cite some examples :

"You're a girl, what do you know"
"Go run along beach, that's what you're good for"

and some more which if printed here, would bring forth this post itself removed because they are just so low and disgusting.

Am I griefing ? Am I a feminist ?

I don't feel I am because I have put up with some of the most lowest RL people who feel that a woman is nothing more useful than being in a kitchen. P/S : I always retort with "Well if your woman's always in the kitchen then you definitely don't know what to do as a man".

I have had friends tell me :
"Oh just ignore them. Don't let them get the better of you or they win". or
"Is that it ? I thought it was serious when you said you were upset".
"To play the game you need to have a thick skin. Otherwise, don't play."

DDO (and any other MMORPG games) is dominated by majority male players. But, at NO point should we disrespect ANY other human being simply because of gender, race, sexual orientation, IQ level or age. Behind that computer screen IS a human being OMG.

I speak especially for the female players out there, who encounter griefing and slack just because we are female. All I can say is : hold your dignity high and be proud to be woman. Don't let a game or anyone else tell you otherwise.

Narrow minded callous comments callously passed targeted at anyone should never be dismissed, don't ignore how your fellow player feels, don't dismiss us "just-because".

It was only recently in a raid I encountered 2 such players that I decided to write this post; when no one else in that raid felt they wanted to stand up for me, not say anything at all in my defence. I am tired of being silent and unheard. I am woman, hear me ROAR !

2015 is approaching. Stay the REAL person you are, fellow gamers, be true to your principles, treat everyone with love and respect. We shouldn't need a forum thread to remind us to, but sometimes maybe we do. Stay real and have a good gaming 2015 ahead.

C.

Alts : Seraphicus / Caireen / Nehalennia / Cyhiraeth / Antiopeia / Atlanteia / Calliopea / Nefyn / Setlocenia

:) You have no idea how much I needed to hear this right now :) Thank you thank you thank you :)

There used to be more female players around. But lately everywhere I play there is less and less. And now I am really starting to feel how much a minority I am. And every time I open my mouth in a pug I get sideways comments. Often it's nothing I could officially complain about, but it just makes me uncomfortable. And I just want to play and not deal with that. So I have this choice to remain voiceless so I don't have to deal with that :/

But I don't want to remain voiceless. I want to be able to talk naturally and have it be no big deal. It's good to be reminded to just to try to do so regardless of how I may be treated. To try and treat others the way I should, regardless of how they treat me.

But oh man I miss my fellow female players :( It feels like there is less and less these days.

[Braegan]

I don't care if you are targeting women, new players, role players, elite zergers, etc.

If you are a nasty, mean spirited, griefing person that enjoys making other people uncormfortable then I have no room for you in any groups.

[MeliCat]

Our gender rarely has ANYTHING to do with it, bad humans and uncivilized humans have EVERYTHING to do with it. Not every insult towards a woman is the response of sexism. Not EVERY guy is sexist. Not every act of stupidity has sexism laced behind it. To keep thinking that it must be that way is selling things short. It's looking for a battle that simply might not be there. We keep looking for this vile sexist beast and think that all men are prone to it. Fun fact...most of them are not and we need to stop treating them like they constantly are.

? Maybe it just doesn't happen to you? Do you pug much? When you pug is there just you or are you usually surrounded by your guildies and are you usually all the best players in the pug?

It's more a case of you're playing along happily, doing your best in whatever quest/raid, and then someone makes a comment. And it's a comment that is sexist. So what do you do? Ignore it and grow a thick skin? Sometimes. But every so often it's like you've just had enough of this BS. Or do you say something? I agree with you that playing the gender card is going to make it worse. But if you say something and the only grounds on which they are being unplesant is the sexism then in saying something you have to point out the gender stuff. So it's just easier just not to say anything mostly. And so it continues. Or you just say nothing and remain voiceless.

Being in the power position of a top notch player maybe you don't experience this much. If you're more middling and isolated then you get it every so often. Mostly it's just ignore and more on is the best way to deal though. Moving on could mean just not playing the game of course. Working in STEM I've done a bit of reading on this topic. Apparently 30% is the tipping point where being a minority becomes no big deal. We don't have that here.

[MadCookieQueen]

? Maybe it just doesn't happen to you? Do you pug much? When you pug is there just you or are you usually surrounded by your guildies and are you usually all the best players in the pug?

Oddly enough...I am not immune to it happening, even when the hubby is in the same party. The things I've heard and shot back at would have me banned from this forum in a heartbeat, if I dared repeated any of it. Yet, many of those times being insulted, it wasn't solely on the basis that I'm female, it was solely on the shoulders of the jerk who thought it was worth their time to insult me.

That's the point. Yes, I'm a woman and yes, on occasion I get insulted or harassed but the two are not always linked to each other. Bad humans are bad humans for whatever reason and it is NOT always centered around my gender.

We can't say that something that might be less than 1% of the issue is the entire 100% of the issue. (I have no idea on numbers, just making a point) I don't understand the automatic thought line that just because some moron decided to insult me, the first reaction absolutely has to be "well it's because I'm a female." No, the truth is far more boring...that person is a jerk for whatever reason and the reason could be as something as lame as "I died and that player was near me and I hate that player for not healing me fast enough"

I'm not saying sexism doesn't happen in gaming, it does, but we can't keep saying that it is the only thing that happens.



It's more a case of you're playing along happily, doing your best in whatever quest/raid, and then someone makes a comment. And it's a comment that is sexist. So what do you do? Ignore it and grow a thick skin? Sometimes. But every so often it's like you've just had enough of this BS. Or do you say something? I agree with you that playing the gender card is going to make it worse. But if you say something and the only grounds on which they are being unplesant is the sexism then in saying something you have to point out the gender stuff. So it's just easier just not to say anything mostly. And so it continues. Or you just say nothing and remain voiceless.

What I do and what other people do when confronted with a sexist remark are entirely different. My way of handling it, is not going to work for everyone and it is not the only way to handle a problem. It also really depends on the situation. Sometimes firing back makes sense and sometimes letting it roll off your back makes sense.

Sorry, I can't give you a definitive answer as their isn't one and there isn't one cookie cutter piece of advice that works for everyone. Sometimes you can run from the bully and be okay and sometimes you have to pop the bully right in the nose.



Being in the power position of a top notch player maybe you don't experience this much. If you're more middling and isolated then you get it every so often. Mostly it's just ignore and more on is the best way to deal though. Moving on could mean just not playing the game of course. Working in STEM I've done a bit of reading on this topic. Apparently 30% is the tipping point where being a minority becomes no big deal. We don't have that here.

I am not in a protected class...trust me. I take more crud from "elitist" players than I do from almost anyone else and it's not because of my gender.

Moving on could mean not playing DDO, but that doesn't solve much of anything. It'll just trade in one group of people's insults for another's.

Again...as long as we have humans...we will have issues.

[MeliCat]

That's the point. Yes, I'm a woman and yes, on occasion I get insulted or harassed but the two are not always linked to each other. Bad humans are bad humans for whatever reason and it is NOT always centered around my gender.

We can't say that something that might be less than 1% of the issue is the entire 100% of the issue. (I have no idea on numbers, just making a point) I don't understand the automatic thought line that just because some moron decided to insult me, the first reaction absolutely has to be "well it's because I'm a female." No, the truth is far more boring...that person is a jerk for whatever reason and the reason could be as something as lame as "I died and that player was near me and I hate that player for not healing me fast enough"


I, and I'm fairly sure other women too, rarely conclude that my gender is the first issue why that person is being an ass. However regardless of reasons why, if their response is a gendered response, well that is another level of being an ass.

I am always going to take a non gendered response at face value. I am not a mind reader and am a fairly direct person myself. And it's easiest just to conclude if it's not a gendered response then their general demeanour being an ass is for some other reason obvious or not. Like they're just a bully, or I am indeed playing badly and they're upset with that, or they've just had a bad day or whatever.

I am not a "victim". I am tired of this BS. I manage it by either not having to manage it (ie, not playing or not using my voice so people don't know I'm female so it doesn't happen) or by tolerating it or by saying something very directly to point it out in an attempt to stop it (which often doesn't work because they don't "hear" me), or saying it indirectly because I just can't work out how to say it in a way that's actually going to be heard and actually understood and that particular individual I have to continue dealing with (if I keep playing that is).

I just want to play at the end of the day. It would be nice to have the occasional friend in game who "gets it". Who understands what it's like to be the minority. Who understands that while this is just a game, and the comments are mostly harmless, that a million little pinpricks over a sustained period of time just really really really hurt the soul, mind and spirit.

It would be nice to have such soul friends in game. But at the moment I'm going through a period where I don't really. Although there are lots of lovely lovely people around who I meet every day - so they kind of make up for it. :)

[Saekee]

I am always sorry to learn about harrassment. I encourage players to report harrassers and squelch them.

It might help females to know more about male behavior. Eve Sedgwick coined the term 'homosocial' to explain how some males will bond emotionally with each other by abusing females. They do not feel comfortable emotionally bonding directly as that would either imply (or lead to) a homosexual encounter. So they 'use' a female third party in some fashion to complete their relationship. It is a triangle built upon an intense love for other males but at the cost of demeaning females.

I write this to alert you that the 'audience' for some measure of demeaning/harrassing behavior is actually not so much the female victim but other males. In context, the harrassing male in question is emotionally needy, repressed, and should take a long look in the mirror in terms of the gender he really finds emtionally supportive.

[phillymiket]

Hey Seraphicus,

Sorry for your troubles.

Unfortunately, the people who do this stuff, and I've observed it as well, either rationalize what they say, want to be hurtful, or just don't care.

So there is no lesson for them. They will just continue to be *** ***** until they get banned. /report does get people banned or vacation time, so at least there is that.

Maybe what can come out of this thread, is that all us men who aren't *** ***** should appreciate the issue and realize, given gamergate n stuff as of late, that now is not the time for edgy jokes to women we don't know. There is plenty in this world to laugh and joke about that we don't need the 'get me a sammich' jokes unless you are **** sure the person knows you are 'making fun of that kind of thing' or whatever your intentions were for saying it.

Also we could be sure to also not engage or have tolerance for sexism - any 'ism' - even when there isn't a women or whoever around to be offended.

See you in G-land, and Happy New Year to you and all of SAGE :-)

[MeliCat]

I am always sorry to learn about harrassment. I encourage players to report harrassers and squelch them.

It might help females to know more about male behavior. Eve Sedgwick coined the term 'homosocial' to explain how some males will bond emotionally with each other by abusing females. They do not feel comfortable emotionally bonding directly as that would either imply (or lead to) a homosexual encounter. So they 'use' a female third party in some fashion to complete their relationship. It is a triangle built upon an intense love for other males but at the cost of demeaning females.

I write this to alert you that the 'audience' for some measure of demeaning/harrassing behavior is actually not so much the female victim but other males. In context, the harrassing male in question is emotionally needy, repressed, and should take a long look in the mirror in terms of the gender he really finds emtionally supportive.

Oh good grief. No I hadn't heard of that term or meaning. I kind of wish I hadn't now too :/ Far out. It's stuff like this that makes me wish I didn't like such "male" past times, that I didn't have such a "male" job. I am so tired of this.

Reporting and squelching are just no go very often for a lot of obvious reasons. There is harassing and then there is harassing. And people are often surprised at how much people will put up with before they report.

[nibel]

As far as gender bias: There always will be. And this will sound sexist. But it is pure biology. In the primal sense, men are always ready to reproduce. Their hormones are always on. This is not true for all men, but 99% of them it is. Women have a fluctuating hormone level for reproductive purposes. As such, their whole outlook on everything is different then a mans. This isn't true for all women, but 99% of them. Because of these two differences, men always come off more aggressively when it comes to women and reproductive activities, where as women have been in a sexual world when their mind and body was not seeking reproduction. And because of that, men typically are crude and base and women are sophisticated and subtle. Also women tend to filter their emotions and actions because of this. Whereas men don't see a reason to do that because of their hormone state, and typically don't.

The myth that men have more sexual desires than women is very recent, like the blue-pink association with genders. Ironic enough, a few centuries ago (http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-myth-men-are-horny-women-are-not/), it was reversed, and women were believed to not be kept in charge of anything because of their "lu****l mind", and men had the self-control to not be sexual beasts.

Anyway, this is a socially constructed lie, and you would do a favor to everyone to stop spreading it.

[zwiebelring]

Trash talk is common use. Mostly in groups, where everyboy knows each other well. There is no difference between men and women. And well, this gender trashing goes both ways. But anyway it is just talk. You have the option of leaving the group, reporting harrassment and communication in general like: Stop that please. You can change the tone, words or level of eloquence but the meaning can be told without any forum thread about respect whatsoever.

[Sofianna]

Trash talk is common use. Mostly in groups, where everyboy knows each other well. There is no difference between men and women. And well, this gender trashing goes both ways. But anyway it is just talk. You have the option of leaving the group, reporting harrassment and communication in general like: Stop that please. You can change the tone, words or level of eloquence but the meaning can be told without any forum thread about respect whatsoever.

1. I don't know that person who "trash talked" me, it was not provoked in any manner. I certainly do not approve of trash talking anyone in a party nor raid party, ESPECIALLY pure pug where I don't know anyone.

2. I had a raid item that was non tradeable, to ragequit and leave unprofessionally is definetly not my playstyle. Other raid members do not have to penalized for the 2 persons who trashed talked to me.

3. I did say as calmly as possible to mind their manners, that I find it rude to call me a female dog for no apparent reason, especially when I do not know them at all. And I certainly did not "trash talk back" at all even though they were first to fling insults at me.

So YES, in all accounts, even after a harassment report, I would, and did feel, that a forum thread was necessary. I need to speak for myself and many players out there, that such singularly bullying has zero tolerance; that we should and must respect our fellow players on all accounts, contrary to what you feel is acceptable.

[Kawai]

Trash talk is common use.

pls... show of hands if u... "trash-talk"... while playing DDO?


There is no difference between men and women.

:|


But anyway it is just talk. You have the option of leaving the group, reporting harrassment and communication in general like: Stop that please.

ahhh so it's target-victims responsibility?!
tyvm, Earl.
what a load off!


...but the meaning can be told without any forum thread about respect whatsoever.

smh

[Livmo]

SNIP

I'm very sorry to hear about your experince.

It's a shame that people can say and do bad things and hide behind a monitor. I can assure you some of the comments and griefing I've received on various servers would not have taken place in RL.

I know at times it can get under your skin.

Thank you for making your post. Strong work.

The grass is not greener on other servers.

I hope you have a better year in 2015 and I hope DDO does too.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

There are two sure-fire ways to get people to reveal what kind of jerks they really are: get them drunk, or talk to them on the Internet.

[Monkey-Boy]

There are two sure-fire ways to get people to reveal what kind of jerks they really are: get them drunk, or talk to them on the Internet.

This is why I like to save time and just get drunk while on the internet.

[Seikojin]

The myth that men have more sexual desires than women is very recent, like the blue-pink association with genders. Ironic enough, a few centuries ago (http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-myth-men-are-horny-women-are-not/), it was reversed, and women were believed to not be kept in charge of anything because of their "lu****l mind", and men had the self-control to not be sexual beasts.

Anyway, this is a socially constructed lie, and you would do a favor to everyone to stop spreading it.

Well so is psychology too; if you compare it to the existence of human beings. Annnd I did not say men are always horny and women are not. I am pointing out that peoples perception of a males libido or a females libido is that: Perception. Individual to that person and no one else. Like yours is different than someone else's. So I do not see how I am spreading a lie.

[skorpeon]

Hey just to let any female player know there are many of us male players that love having you here. One of my best recent experiences (G-land) was when we had two women very active in my pug chat as we ran through Wheelon. It was one of my best pugging experiences! They were chatty and helpful and made the whole evening a pleasant and fun one.

I wish every evening was like that and if I heard any one being offended in a group I would speak up. I am no power player but I do know how I like to be treated and expect others to do the same to others.

Respect
Tym

[Tesrali]

So Caireen how good is your wi-fi in the kitchen?

Kiss my Bar

lolziepants

[Inoukchuk]

pls... show of hands if u... "trash-talk"... while playing DDO?



:|



ahhh so it's target-victims responsibility?!
tyvm, Earl.
what a load off!



smh

This is not as black and white as you are making it.

I'll give some parallel examples:
I'm a very affectionate person. I'm known to my friends and family as a great hugger and good cuddler. My girlfriend has repeatedly told me the one of the things she loves about me is how affectionate I am. On the other hand , one of my friends is married to a gal that treats me like I'm a walking sexual assault because I had the nerve to hug her when we first met. It's a rare case, but it's there. Most of the time you can get a sense from someone from a first hug if they are comfortable with that/you and adjust from there (similar to flirting, if you know what to look for), but until you take that first step you don't know.

Every time anyone (particularly men) flirt with someone, ask someone out, etc they run the risk of it being unwelcome... but you don't know til you try. If you flirt with a girl at work you may get a date/GF/wife (my ex GF recently married a co-worker)... or you may get a sexual harassment accusation because that's how she perceived it. Much of this comes down to being alert and sensitive to your delivery and how it's received, but some small measure of it is also out of your control and dependent on the other person.

So to answer your question, yes, I occasionally trash talk on line and in DDO. I mostly limit it to friends and people that have shown they share my style of humor, and I never take it in a hazing or unfriendly direction. If I ran into you online I would get to know you a little first.... if you are sassy I would probably trash talk you some (and you'd probably like it). But not everyone is equally gifted at judging other people and if they judge wrong, or are bad at delivery, it could be taken badly.

With this in mind I do think that as the target/audience we have a responsibility to have a least a little bit of a thick skin and offer the benefit of the doubt where possible.

That's not to say everything you've gotten has been well intentioned, likely some of it wasn't. For those there is no excuse, but there is also a fine probability that you would have had issues with them regardless of gender. I just want to illustrate that these social interaction issues are not as black and white as they seem, or as people often want to make them. It's ....complicated

[Kawai]

...one of my friends is married to a gal that treats me like I'm a walking sexual assault because I hard the nerve to hug her when we first met...

oO

why on Gods green Earth would anyone hug someone they r meeting @1st time?

perhaps a circumstance we dunno about? had u like... spoke on phone & felt u knew her?
-or was it literally like, 1st time meeting/chatting/whtvr?

i realize this could turn into a whole diff chat, but still... inquiring minds wanna know.
(o, & r u American, btw? if not that could explain it.... just say'n)


...Every time anyone (particularly men) flirt with someone, ask someone out, etc they run the risk of it being unwelcome... but you don't know til you try.

9 outta 10 times... she's already given u a body language answer, which most of u lunks r oblivious to.
i mean, c'mon!
this really works both directions, m/f doesn't matter.
:|
& do we really need this turning into a dating do's & don'ts here?

that last thing u said kinda struck meh funny...
"you don't know until you try".

that sounds like one of those cliche's people use when their subconscious is actually screaming at them "NOOO DON'T DO IT"!!


...So to answer your question, yes, I occasionally trash talk on line and in DDO.

and still... i say, -how?
how exactly... does one trash talk in DDO?
PvPing?
-yea i can c that.

but... like... puggin? -for a quest?!
:/

pls pls pls pls PLS post a video of that!
...would b hours of entertainment @youtube & prolly make u a star.

"Im gonna finish Yar-Yar faster than YO MAMA finishes her plate!"

:| srsly?

...

[Inoukchuk]

oO

why on Gods green Earth would anyone hug someone they r meeting @1st time?

perhaps a circumstance we dunno about? had u like... spoke on phone & felt u knew her?
-or was it literally like, 1st time meeting/chatting/whtvr?

i realize this could turn into a whole diff chat, but still... inquiring minds wanna know.
(o, & r u American, btw? if not that could explain it.... just say'n)

I often hug people I'm introduced to (meaning we have some connection through a mutual friend). I don't hug everyone, it's a matter of trying to read if they are open to that. I come from a mindset that the world needs less cold anonymity and more hugs. Not everyone sees it that way. Once in a while I read it wrong and hug someone not into it, but normally it's clear from first contact (physical) that they aren't interested, so you make it as brief and impersonal as possible (like a "bro-hug") and don't do that again. Most people frankly are good with it.


9 outta 10 times... she's already given u a body language answer, which most of u lunks r oblivious to.
i mean, c'mon!
this really works both directions, m/f doesn't matter.
:|
& do we really need this turning into a dating do's & don'ts here?

No, we don't. I personally don't date at work at all, too many dangers. And I'm very shy around women, so I tend to only ask out women I have strong indications might be interested (but even then, sometimes I'm wrong... women will sometimes flirt without meaning anything just as men do)


that last thing u said kinda struck meh funny...
"you don't know until you try".

that sounds like one of those cliche's people use when their subconscious is actually screaming at them "NOOO DON'T DO IT"!!

see above... even with a high success rate you will inevitably read people wrong sometimes... bottom line is you really can't know til you try, you can just make good educated guesses.


and still... i say, -how?
how exactly... does one trash talk in DDO?
PvPing?
-yea i can c that.

but... like... puggin? -for a quest?!
:/

pls pls pls pls PLS post a video of that!
...would b hours of entertainment @youtube & prolly make u a star.

"Im gonna finish Yar-Yar faster than YO MAMA finishes her plate!"

:| srsly?

...

Well, I mostly solo these days due to very very limited time and the fact that my RL friend that played has stopped and many of my guildies are less active or inactive now.

But I can try to illustrate. My RL friend is quite a character, super nice, only mildly competitive, great sport and truly modest. That said, he loves to trash talk and compete for kills. Given that he generally hates FotM or melee builds and loves support toons, he generally loses, but that matters not. So we'd have non-stop exchanges like:

him: "bah! I had that guy, if I hadn't gotten feared I couldn't caught you"
me: "don't blame your cowardice on others"
him: "....@#$%, ok... that was good"
me: "are you done being useless? how about a heal here"
him: "nobody likes you"

all in good humor, and usually much to the amusement of those who may be playing with us.

[Noobtastic]

I am very proud that you spoke out against harassment. Too many people keep quiet about what has been done to them. Afraid to speak out because they feel they will not be taken seriously. Harassment of any kind needs to be brought to the attention of the community. Being called a derogatory name based on your sex is sexual discrimination, just as being called a derogatory name based on your race or religion is discrimination. Further more I believe it is your duty to say something if you see someone being harassed. Sitting idle and saying nothing is part of the problem. Not getting involved, not speaking out, effectively is acceptance of this behaviour. Harassment of any kind should not be tolerated.

Respect your fellow humans. Speak out against harassment.

R.

[Sofianna]

I am very proud that you spoke out against harassment. Too many people keep quiet about what has been done to them. Afraid to speak out because they feel they will not be taken seriously. Harassment of any kind needs to be brought to the attention of the community. Being called a derogatory name based on your sex is sexual discrimination, just as being called a derogatory name based on your race or religion is discrimination. Further more I believe it is your duty to say something if you see someone being harassed. Sitting idle and saying nothing is part of the problem. Not getting involved, not speaking out, effectively is acceptance of this behaviour. Harassment of any kind should not be tolerated.

Respect your fellow humans. Speak out against harassment.

R.

Thank you and for everyone, for your support and bringing more enforcement about civility within the Ghallanda community. We shouldn't need thread posts, tickets and guild rules to reinforce how to behave.

[Ykt]

simply because I am female.

I don't tell people what gender I am. Why do you?

When I join a PUG I don't say:
"Hi I'm a guy, weighing 160 pounds, standing 5 feet 10 inches tall, I'm also white, with dark hair and blue eyes. My hobbies include: video games, books and animal documentaries. If you have something against anything I just said, please list them so I can complain about it on the DDO Official Forums."

I just say:
"Hi"
And sometimes
"share pls"
If I don't feel like running to the quest giver (Relic of a Sovereign Past :mad: )

[Saekee]

I don't tell people what gender I am. Why do you?

When I join a PUG I don't say:
"Hi I'm a guy, weighing 160 pounds, standing 5 feet 10 inches tall, I'm also white, with dark hair and blue eyes. My hobbies include: video games, books and animal documentaries. If you have something against anything I just said, please list them so I can complain about it on the DDO Official Forums."

I just say:
"Hi"
And sometimes
"share pls"
If I don't feel like running to the quest giver (Relic of a Sovereign Past :mad: )

Ykt, have you considered people figuring it out via voice chat? Sure, female players can only use the text box, but is that what we want to push for?

[Noobtastic]

Some of you are ridiculously off base here. This thread is about respecting your fellow players. It is NOT blaming males for the mistreatment of females. It is NOT about the behavioural differences between males and females. In fact it really has nothing to do about gender in particular. It is about respecting each other regardless of sex, race and religion. Some here are confusing the core issue with the specifics of the OP's situation.

[zwiebelring]

1. I don't know that person who "trash talked" me, it was not provoked in any manner. I certainly do not approve of trash talking anyone in a party nor raid party, ESPECIALLY pure pug where I don't know anyone.

2. I had a raid item that was non tradeable, to ragequit and leave unprofessionally is definetly not my playstyle. Other raid members do not have to penalized for the 2 persons who trashed talked to me.

3. I did say as calmly as possible to mind their manners, that I find it rude to call me a female dog for no apparent reason, especially when I do not know them at all. And I certainly did not "trash talk back" at all even though they were first to fling insults at me.

So YES, in all accounts, even after a harassment report, I would, and did feel, that a forum thread was necessary. I need to speak for myself and many players out there, that such singularly bullying has zero tolerance; that we should and must respect our fellow players on all accounts, contrary to what you feel is acceptable.

In your OP you tell us in quotes that people were talking smack about you. Your OP reads as if you don't like that. Okay, but minding respect when you clearly distinguished between 'bullying' and 'talking smack' seemed exaggerated to me. Now you tell about a totally different level. And therefor you have tools. And since there is a big thread about 'Healthy Game Environment' it is taken seriously.

So, writing about talking smack and then jumping to clear bullying is something you should mind as well in regards of all reactions to your post. I am sorry for you being bullied. I have no tolerance for something like that. Move on, remember those idiots and squelch them, but by all means, don't get intimidated.

[Sofianna]

I don't tell people what gender I am. Why do you?

When I join a PUG I don't say:
"Hi I'm a guy, weighing 160 pounds, standing 5 feet 10 inches tall, I'm also white, with dark hair and blue eyes. My hobbies include: video games, books and animal documentaries.

SuperLOL, I don't enter any group and announce I'm female, you're funny ! And assumptious ! SuperLOL.

So, how does being in a raid group, linking a quest item and merely indicating that I am going to proceed to that part of the quest objective warrant being singled out in a raid group for 2 random puggers I don't know to call me : a female dog ?

Explain it to me then ? Some of you clearly make it sound like I ask for it when you know it isn't the case AND make it out that I'm asking for sympathy or attention-seeking. Hilarious !

[BigGoettge]

Sofianna, please take a look in your forum pm/notifications :)

[MeliCat]

I don't tell people what gender I am. Why do you?

When I join a PUG I don't say:
"Hi I'm a guy, weighing 160 pounds, standing 5 feet 10 inches tall, I'm also white, with dark hair and blue eyes. My hobbies include: video games, books and animal documentaries. If you have something against anything I just said, please list them so I can complain about it on the DDO Official Forums."

I just say:
"Hi"
And sometimes
"share pls"
If I don't feel like running to the quest giver (Relic of a Sovereign Past :mad: )

So you're saying "if you are female do not use your voice"?

So everyone can use their voice or tell people their gender except if they're female?

Sounds fair.

Particularly leading raids. Some of the talking over the top of me or countermanding my directions I've had has been just amazing. Looking back I've decided there probably was a component of people not complying simply because I'm female but there is no way to prove that. It's just very annoying trying to get stuff done.

Good thing this game is so supportive of solo play.

[MeliCat]

Ykt, have you considered people figuring it out via voice chat? Sure, female players can only use the text box, but is that what we want to push for?

Yes exactly that.

I was in a guild once where I lived for months under a leader who told me I only ever got anywhere because I was a girl, that I couldn't lead raids and shouldn't therefore try, etc. Eventually I snapped and told him not to join my raids and he kicked me out of guild. Screen shots saved. So I went to another server and started again with no voice playing with whoever. It took me six months to get my confidence back that I was an ok player. Not a top player but good enough. It took me using no voice for that long. This leader eventually apologized which was something I guess.

But let me toss it out there straight up - why are there so few female players? Can I suggest to you that one of the reasons is that they get into situations where they just don't feel welcomed and that becomes an extra reason on top of others that they might leave.

[depositbox]

Hello, OP. As a Redditor with a 170 IQ here. Who lives on Dew and Chettos the native fauna of sub-dwellings. I can confirm that the male species is still too primitive and unnecessary in society today. The urge to club a mate over the head is one of the more bizarre rituals in the animal kingdom. And is second to maybe domestic urban male feline "courtship" as the most cruel. Crime and war would almost be completely wiped from the face of our planet with testosterone gone.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Kudos to the OP for bringing this to light for us, in a respectful way without "naming and shaming". You took the high ground here. The biggest benefit for me of threads like this is it alerts me who NOT to welcome into our quests/raids (by their responses).

Female players should be able to play this game without male players belittling/harrasing them. Its a shame that after all these years, when numbers of female mmo gamers are so much higher than the old days, that we're not past this immature and cruel sexist behavior by now.

In fact, we should celebrate the fact that women, folks from so many different countries, religions, and ways of life can join us in a game of DDO. The beauty of it is on this game WE ARE ALL THE SAME. No matter the color of your skin, what sex you are, what nation you hail from, what ailment or handicap you live with. Your pixels are equal to my pixels. END OF STORY. At least in my book.

[Kawai]

funny story...
a little over year ago, -approaching two actually-
i was standing @ AH minding store & shopping for alts.

noticed this little lvl 5 Pure Ranger Adventurer standing there also.

being ever altruistic & admiring seeing a newbie Pure Ranger meh heart swelled & so i opened a trade box and gave her 100k, yanno, just ta give.

she said in Public Chat: "Why r u giving me 100k, Achillesia"?

i was like oO
-totally felt like a pedo in a park with children. hehehe

anyway, turns out this woman was brand new to game.
she was brought in by her Husband.
they are both grandparents & in their late 50's.
they both played late at night, when he got off work.

anyway...
after much thot & instruction & tugging ear of our Guild Leader,
i got her & her hubby both in Guild & so forth...

about Six Months later, she was all up ta snuff!
& today is a very competent Toon w/ alts who has now TR'd and handles stuff all on her own.
a great member of team & represents @channel & in Pugs very well.

Point of all this?

Her hubby!

I think it was like... after about 3 months..?
-he got totally jelly of her & quit playing.
Yanno, like how she'd figured it all out, & just sort of surpassed his abilities.

(he's just now returned, sort of, but wont play with her or us. just sort of pugs solo).

Male Pride.
it causes lots & lots of grief in this world.

[Monkey-Boy]

Yanno, like how she'd figured it all out, & just sort of surpassed his abilities.


Screenshot or it didn't happen.

[dunklezhan]

Male Pride.
it causes lots & lots of grief in this world.


Oh Kawaii. What a way to undermine things. Reverse-misogyny isn't going to fix misogyny

Pride causes lots of grief, and plenty of women are guilty of that. Maggie Thatcher for instance did a lot of damage for the sake of her pride, for example. Equally, so did Arthur Scargill who was leader of the main political group to oppose her. Their genders were irrelevant. The fact that a man may feel it doesn't make it male pride. That's like claiming there's a particular kind of female jealousy that is different from the version men feel (just picking on a random stereotypical view that came to mind, I'm not validating it). There isn't.

There's negative feelings, and there's ***holes who act on them without any self evaluation. That is what causes all the grief.

[dunklezhan]

9 outta 10 times... she's already given u a body language answer, which most of u lunks r oblivious to.


You're doing it again!

If "we" are all so oblivious, and "you" are all so aware that "we" are all so oblivious, why would you keep using silly things like body language to try to communicate important things in the first place?! It makes no sense! It's like you're living a tautology and blaming men for then not understanding you! Is it some form of elaborate, cunning trap on the part of all femalekind to vex malekind? Is that all of femalekind are compulsive cryptographers?

I do not believe a word of what I've just written by the way. Everything I said about tautologies etc is ridiculous, I'm trying to illustrate what gross generalisations can lead to. You said 'most', and '9 times out of 10' - those are gross generalisations and whilst things like 'most' might be true, (many would have been a better word without stats to back you up) 9/10 really is not. Neither does it mean judgements can or should be passed about a whole sub group of society.

/sigh.
Consider your audience and communicate accordingly. This may be the key to all of humanity's problems, in fact. Unfortunately, since we're the first species to evolve verbal communication that we know of, the whole thing is a very shaky, fragile thing that often goes wrong. Much, I assume, like the first creatures to evolve multicellular life. Extinction and replacement would seem to me to be the only likely way things will change.

I mean, this thread has gone on for pages and the only point that mattered was 'be more aware of how you're communicating with people please, and please do think about the effect you may have on people who are different from you'. How anyone can argue against that central pillar is completely beyond me.

[TrinityTurtle]

Her hubby!

I think it was like... after about 3 months..?
-he got totally jelly of her & quit playing.
Yanno, like how she'd figured it all out, & just sort of surpassed his abilities.

(he's just now returned, sort of, but wont play with her or us. just sort of pugs solo).

Male Pride.
it causes lots & lots of grief in this world.

LOL And sometimes weirdly in other people outside the couple. Coddex (my husband) started a group...about two years ago. Saved a spot for me, because I was cleaning up after his sick cat. So I get back to my comp and join the group, and Coddex immediately asks me a question. I play better than him, and more than him, and have learned more about the game. So I answer, and one of the guys in the party immediately demands he kick me out and don't ask 'idiot women nothing about a game, cuz we don't know ****". Coddex booted him from the party, and had to squelch the rage tells after his response to the guy was "Man, she plays more and better, of course I ask her for information/advice" and he flipped out on him. It was kinda weird to me that this guy cared so much about Coddex' 'manhood', since to Cod's knowledge they'd never met before. I suppose it was more about his own image of what men and women should be.

[Ykt]

To sum up this white knight thread:

- Men are evil

- Women are kind princesses




Aileen Wuornos
"Unlike most female serial killers, Wuornos did not poison her victims – she shot them. Her motives also did not appear financially motivated. Although she did steal some pecuniary items from her victims, she claimed that the men she killed tried to rape her, and therefore she acted in self-defense.

Throughout her trials in 1992 and 1993, Wuornos maintained this dubious argument; even so, she pled guilty and was therefore sentenced to death. She died by lethal injection in 2002."

http://i1.wp.com/listverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/aileen-wuornos-5.jpg


That poor woman defending herself from male rapists! She got sentenced to death for that! :eek:

[BigGoettge]

Ykt - that's just way out of bounds and have no place here!

If u can't debate on a reasonable level, why then paticipate at all???

[MadCookieQueen]

To sum up this white knight thread:

- Men are evil

- Women are kind princesses



I personally prefer to be the Evil Queen...after all...they have better lines, cooler outfits and Queen trumps Princess.


Yeah...all men are evil in the same kind of evil that ALL humans are...it's called...


big surprise


being human ^^

[Monkey-Boy]

I personally prefer to be the Evil Queen...after all...they have better lines, cooler outfits and Queen trumps Princess.


Yeah...all men are evil in the same kind of evil that ALL humans are...it's called...


big surprise


being human ^^

The burden of being a mammal.

[MeliCat]

Oh Kawaii. What a way to undermine things. Reverse-misogyny isn't going to fix misogyny


Exactly :/ Woah backwards... watch the smackdowns start to happen. :(

[Mercureal]

To sum up this white knight thread:

- Men are evil

- Women are kind princesses


I didn't read all of this thread (started on last page and worked backwards), but nevertheless I feel supremely confident in saying, yep, you got it. That's exactly what this thread is about.

[phillymiket]

To sum up this white knight thread:

- Men are evil

- Women are kind princesses

Typical defensive reaction.

I'm sorry you see the world in such a way that any criticism of a group you belong to is automatically viewed as a slight upon each and every member of your group.

Whether you see it or not, some male gamers could be better about the comments they direct toward female gamers.

If you choose to read that as "all males are scum, all females are saints" than that's on you.

[Sofianna]

Ykt,

If you think that spamming my forum thread post with that would give you the last word, THINK AGAIN.

If you think I'm calling it Bluff to the entire situation, THINK AGAIN.

Look me up in game, come and talk to me face to face IF you dare. Who are your alts ? I don't see them being stated on your posts ? Are you shy ?

[Sofianna]

I didn't read all of this thread (started on last page and worked backwards), but nevertheless I feel supremely confident in saying, yep, you got it. That's exactly what this thread is about.

You clearly do everything backwards ! Superlol.

[Sofianna]

I've said it many times in this thread alone, it isn't about male vs female OMG, can't some of you close minded posts even see that ?

Its EVERYTHING to do with bullying someone for NO REASON, totally unprovoked. If YOU got singled out in raid party and was called degratory term, would YOU stand up and speak up about being bullied ? Or just squelch and put another notch on being ignorant ?

[Faltout]

I've said it many times in this thread alone, it isn't about male vs female OMG, can't some of you close minded posts even see that ?

Its EVERYTHING to do with bullying someone for NO REASON, totally unprovoked. If YOU got singled out in raid party and was called degratory term, would YOU stand up and speak up about being bullied ? Or just squelch and put another notch on being ignorant ?
It depends on whether I thought my words would change something. Judging from the way you're saying they attacked you, they're not that mature to change attitude by people telling them. If they have some sort of punishment from the party, that might teach them. And squelching someone is sometimes some sort of punishment.
You describe ignorance as a bad thing, but the power to ignore when the time is right is very important. A frustrated person hurling insults to all directions is WAITING for someone to argue with. And "Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience". Meanwhile, a frustrated person that sees no response to his behavior but a cold, still silence, will probably cool off or head elsewhere.

Since I posted (couldn't resist any longer), a woman can be annoying when:
- She says "I'm a woman and can perform less than you. So, please lower your expectations of me".
- She says "I'm a woman and please treat me like I was your bro, because anything else would be insulting"
- Basically whenever she tries to fit or not to fit the woman "profile" and is therefore not being herself.
Judging by the thread you started, you seem like the kind of woman that could do such a thing. If you did one of the above things, then consider it may have been a reason why someone noticed your gender (yes they knew your gender from your voice, but noticing it is something different).

P.S.: Women may do the things I listed when feeling insecure, which can happen in a world where online gaming is falsely considered to be a men's game.

[phillymiket]

I've said it many times in this thread alone, it isn't about male vs female OMG, can't some of you close minded posts even see that ?

Its EVERYTHING to do with bullying someone for NO REASON, totally unprovoked. If YOU got singled out in raid party and was called degratory term, would YOU stand up and speak up about being bullied ? Or just squelch and put another notch on being ignorant ?

I have a character that has a Chinese name and is human made to look Chinese, just because role play.
I have actually had people call me a "Gold Farmer" and even a "$%#@%$ Chinese Gold Farmer' on this toon.
As in, "Of course the #$%%% Gold Farmer rolled on it" by someone disappointed they didn't win a roll.
They seem to shut-up when I say something about it in voice chat in 'Murican because the bias no longer applies and I become simply a player rolling on loot and not a "type".
People are funny. (by funny I mean F'ed up.)


a woman can be annoying when:
- She says "I'm a woman and can perform less than you. So, please lower your expectations of me".
- She says "I'm a woman and please treat me like I was your bro, because anything else would be insulting"
- Basically whenever she tries to fit or not to fit the woman "profile" and is therefore not being herself..

Except that nobody says such things.

They say other things, and you assume that's what they are "really saying".
"She was all like, I'm a woman and bla, bla, bla" is what I think you meant to say.

Thing is, how do you know what she was "all like" or "really meant"?
How do you know if someone is "being herself" when you don't know that person?

Sometimes when people have preconceived notions about a group they get what those people say all twisted and then judge that group, not by what they actually said, but by a twisted interpretation of what they think they meant.

[Mercureal]

Oh, and because I realize it may have been somewhat unclear...

I didn't read all of this thread (started on last page and worked backwards), but nevertheless I feel supremely confident in saying, yep, you got it. That's exactly what this thread is about.[/QUOTE]

[Infiltraitor]

From reading this thread, I have concluded that...

If you are scraping the bottom of the barrel, it is because you have your hand in a barrel.

Puggers are puggers for a reason. Many of the decent folk have been claimed and form parties based on guild affiliations and private channels. The end result is a non-random selection of a larger population in favor of lots of weirdos and creeps and jerks. Your sample will always be skewed because you are taking it from a pug.

Additionally, there is another thing you need to consider.

When I do some jerkwad jackassery, I get called out on it in tells. 12 raid members don't need to hear an argument over the time I rolled on a Litany and then sold it to someone who lost the roll. Simply because we didn't hear some big shouting match in party chat doesn't mean everyone didn't remember what I jerk I was and squelched me accordingly.

[Braegan]

Exactly :/ Woah backwards... watch the smackdowns start to happen. :(

Meh, no need for smackdowns.

Poster you are referring to is acting young and immature.

I do agree posts like that do take things back a step, instead of progressing forward. But, that is youth. They really think they have all the answers. :p

[Noobtastic]

I don't tell people what gender I am. Why do you?


Do you believe that anyone should have to hide who they are just because you are too much of a coward to show the world who you are? Do you ever use voice chat in game? Why should any of us have to hide who we are? I can't believe anyone would use such logic to defend their point of view and think that they would be taken seriously.



To sum up this white knight thread:

- Men are evil

- Women are kind princesses


You have completely missed the point of this thread. If you refuse to contribute to the discussion in some meaningful way, do us all a favor and simply remain silent. To imply that original poster brought this topic up for any other reason than to open a discussion on civility toward their fellow players is totally off base.

It has been stated many times now that the point is to never stand idle when harassment is encountered. Speak out! Support those around you that have been subjected to harassment. Show the perpetrators that their actions will not be tolerated. If someone in your group is being harassed or ridiculed, have the common decency to say something in their defence. Do so in such a way that is not derogatory or insulting in return. Simply show the offender the indecency of their actions.

To hide behind the premise that harassment and ridicule is just part of the human condition devalues all of humanity. I am certainly not saying that I am perfect, but I am saying that I can learn from my mistakes. I simply will not accept that when I have wronged someone that it is just what humans do. We can all strive to be something better than what we are. Those that refuse to even try are the ones that are lost.

[Monkey-Boy]

You have completely missed the point of this thread.

This thread had a point?

[Andoris]

I've said it many times in this thread alone, it isn't about male vs female OMG, can't some of you close minded posts even see that ?

Its EVERYTHING to do with bullying someone for NO REASON, totally unprovoked. If YOU got singled out in raid party and was called degratory term, would YOU stand up and speak up about being bullied ? Or just squelch and put another notch on being ignorant ?

Okay, I am tired .. this thread has gone in odd an unproductive directions and frankly is showing a lot of folks (on both sides) in a unfavorable light.

Either way, I feel that it is important to at least put the facts of the matter out there -- after that feel free to go about sniping at each other all you want.

First, the individual that used inappropriate language (Run B*atch!) was a member of my guild.. as such I take full responsibility for their actions as guild leader. I have fully investigated the matter and in my opinion, while there was a error in judgement and a delay in an apology (that never manifested due to the OP leaving party) once it was shown that someone was offended, this was not a case of misogynistic gamer behavior.

The individual in question was chain running VON 5/6s short man with a number of the same individuals over a number of runs. During the runs they were joking on how quick they could do the various tasks (in this specific case running the Coffer across the map). My guildie made the mistake of using the above language (Run B*atch!), directed at a someone who they thought was towards a barb player that he was chain running with , but instead due to them not noticing who picked up the Coffer got directed towards a new member of the raid group, who didn't have the experience of the jokes and camaraderie formed over the prior runs.

My guildie wasn't even aware that the OP was female.. and was honestly just trying to give someone they knew a "hard time" (aka. http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/give+a+hard+time). That mistake was further compounded upon by not quickly apologizing when the OP took offence at the comment.

This is a case of mistaken identity, poor judgement on the use of party chat, a delay in the offering of an apology when someone was offended, and a slight bit of over-sensitivity on the part of the OP.

Not that it is an excuse, but it is worth mentioning that the individual in question doesn't speak English as a first language (actually it might be his fourth or fifth) -- again, not making excuses, but I wanted to ensure that the situation can at least be taken in context.

The individual in question understands the problem and misunderstanding that occurred and will ensure that it does not happen in the future. As far as I am concerned this issue is closed.

If the OP still feels slighted, or believes there is error in my information or judgement on the matter I encourage her to contact me privately or in game and I will be happy to address any concerns.

For others, if you don't feel this is resolved to your satisfaction (even though it is unlikely that you have even half of the facts) -- feel free to brand me however you like and squelch away .. my toons are listed below for all to see. Again, I take full responsibility for the incident and my decision not to take action against the individual in question is also my responsibility.

Now, can we stop the trolling and attempts to turn this into something it is not...




Again, my sincere apologies to Sofianna for how the situation unfolded.

[Sofianna]

Matters would have been instantly resolved if people were sensible enough to not encourage FURTHER trash talking AFTER the "misunderstanding" took place.

Yes I have made it very clear to Ghallanda Rerolled co-leader I am available for communication over the incident. Sadly it was never quite resolved outside the forum. And yes I can send private messages after Ashram's post but I insist on clearing some points :


... there was a error in judgement and a delay in an apology (that never manifested due to the OP leaving party) ....


2. I had a raid item that was non tradeable, to ragequit and leave unprofessionally is definetly not my playstyle. Other raid members do not have to penalized for the 2 persons who trashed talked to me.

No, I did not leave the party part way through the Von5. I finished the raid calmly, quietly, said my ty4g and then left.


My guildie wasn't even aware that the OP was female ... That mistake was further compounded upon by not quickly apologizing when the OP took offence at the comment. This is a case of mistaken identity, poor judgement on the use of party chat, a delay in the offering of an apology when someone was offended, and a slight bit of over-sensitivity on the part of the OP.

And a case of goadingfurther trash talking by another party involved. More people encouraging insulting jokes to add fire to the fuelled situation was totally unnecessary. See why I felt a target of bullying ?


Again, my sincere apologies to Sofianna for how the situation unfolded.

Thank you for standing up to the situation, however delayed. Your OP guildie was never squelched because I waited to see if I was going to get an apology. None forthcoming. I only had GRR contact sent me tell about that your OP was 14 and was to be excused that he watches television a lot and thats how he feels its "cool" to call women "female dogs". Not even gonna reply or justify that explanation.

After this post, it concludes the thread. All other trollers are henceforth ignored as many have advised. Any other issues, contact me in game.

[Xyfiel]

I use to flirt with all the girls in my guild. Finally asked one to chat personally to get to know her better. Married 3.5 years with child on the way. Sometimes talk is just talk and we are really good guys trying to find a good girl who has been trained her whole life that men just want in their pants. It is hard to find a way in when they all shut themselves out. Of course harassment is too far. Also, being online only it is impossible to see body language.

I agree women do not belong in the kitchen. I have tasted your cooking. Correction, I have survived your cooking. Attempted murder would hold up in court for some of those meals. :P
Seriously, regardless of gender I no longer expect people to be able to cook above a very basic level. I have already discussed with the wife that I will cook and we will have family dinners as long as we can. I am recently disabled and am becoming the house husband and she has a good job. I had a friend/roommate ask me one time when we was ~25 while I was cooking breakfast "so how do you make scrambled eggs?" Cooking is more than put pizza in stove.

I still play with multiple women with no flirting or harassment. Melicat can verify.

[MadCookieQueen]

Yes I have made it very clear to Ghallanda Rerolled co-leader I am available for communication over the incident. Sadly it was never quite resolved outside the forum.

I'd like to state that within less than five minutes of being sent an in forum PM alerting me that this was one of our guildies, I immediately responded with apologies and a request for the screenshot of the conversation. When I was emailed the screenshot I responded within a few minutes, again with apologies and assurances that we would handle this matter.

However it was communicated that our internal guild policies, are that, internal. How we reprimand or investigate a matter is solely up to our discretion and not available for public debate.

If the expectation was that we would have the guildie seek you out in game and offer apologies, how people wish to further pursue a matter is up to them. We have done all that we can do, as leaders, to bring about corrective action.

Though I am of the mind to wonder if you were looking to see if we would flat out remove the guildie for this. After investigation and talking to, there wasn't a need for that. I'm sorry if this is not the resolution you seek. Again our internal policies, disciplinary actions and all that are not up for external debate nor are we under any obligation to notify you of how we handle things. Even you have stated this to me.





Thank you for standing up to the situation, however delayed. Your OP guildie was never squelched because I waited to see if I was going to get an apology. None forthcoming. I only had GRR contact sent me tell about that your OP was 14 and was to be excused that he watches television a lot and thats how he feels its "cool" to call women "female dogs". Not even gonna reply or justify that explanation.

Actually he didn't have to come here and say a word about this situation, as I have handled it. This backhanded slap against him for being "delayed" was uncalled for. If discussion with myself, as the co-leader, was not adequate nor timely enough, and you needed him to step up sooner; that was also not communicated. I am sorry that he trusted me to handle this and make the necessary apologies and take necessary action.


As for the continuing line of commentary, I would like to know, privately, which guildie informed you that the other one was 14 and etc. Because I can assure you, that this particular guildie is NOT 14, however I cannot speak to his TV watching habits.

No one here is making excuses for any kind of inappropriate behavior nor language used, it is what it is. A simple misunderstanding as previously outlined by my co-leader. The remark was never meant for you and I am sorry that you took it as such. The remark was never meant as an insult, it was just freely spoken using vernacular that the two parties had already set up between themselves. How we talk among our friends, including "trash talk", is usually different than how we talk to strangers. Again this does NOT excuse any kind of inappropriate behavior nor make light of the slight in which was felt. It simply is, what it is.

[Kawai]

Meh, no need for smackdowns.

Poster you quoted is just young and immature.

I do agree posts like that do take things back a step, instead of progressing forward. But, that is youth. They really think they have all the answers. :p

yea. must b.

...

First Month of playing.
Korthos.
learned how ta group, finally.
joined a pug.

totally flamed on mic.
1. being Ranger
2. carrying bow.
3. being elf.
4. being female
5. punted from group

yea, it was mostly me own fault.
all i did was kite & die back then. :)
*shrug

still ranger
still carry bow full time
and yea, still elf.
but, oh, whats this?
Achillesia... pwning that good ol'boy/grumpy-old-man community every day since figuring it out.

So, yea, i guess i m just young & immature ta carry a bit of a grudge against jerks such as.

------

meantime...
Guild has four grrls scattered within, including leader.
Channel has around 13 among lots great guys? i think?
all use mic's.
no griefs. just good peeps & good times.
anyone out there having probs?
come Thelanis, look us up.

o, & again... any of you who srsly still believe its all just bs?
g'head... watch 5 min of SSSniperwolf @utube...
see the kind of vocal abuse she takes every time she pwns a male.

hilarious, & accurate.
but hey... i guess she's just too young & immature to roll over and die.

[Faltout]

Except that nobody says such things.

They say other things, and you assume that's what they are "really saying".
"She was all like, I'm a woman and bla, bla, bla" is what I think you meant to say.

Thing is, how do you know what she was "all like" or "really meant"?
How do you know if someone is "being herself" when you don't know that person?

Sometimes when people have preconceived notions about a group they get what those people say all twisted and then judge that group, not by what they actually said, but by a twisted interpretation of what they think they meant.
When someone is trying to be someone else, this shows. Whether people want to notice it or not is their business, but if someone wants to notice that, he/she can.

Anyway, maybe I can state that a little better:
When I play DDO I don't speak "bro" language or "girl" language or "flirt" language. My discussions are not gender based. Anyone from any gender could have 'em. When someone comes into that discussion and expects special treatment because of the gender, when the gender doesn't matter, then this is annoying.

Btw, since I posted again, when you play a male toon, I'll call you "he" and when a female, I'll call you "she". No need to correct me. I will keep doing this, because you chose to play an opposite gender. If you don't like being called "he"/"she" then don't play an opposite gender.

[mkmcgw17]

My main alt is Seraphicus (Human FvS) from a very long standing guild SAGE. I have been a player on Devourer, EU Server since 2006. Most importantly, I am a female player (in Ghallanda).

Since my close-knit guild stopped playing, I have had the opportunity to meet many players through active pugging. I have made many new friends, formed my own close-knit channel of people whom I call friends in game. They show me respect 24/7, 365 days a year. Because, like them, I am a avid player in DDO.

I have many positive feedback, those people who have been kind enough to compliment, I will always remember you. And a woman's memory is rather long-standing; or dangerous as some might put it.

But sadly, I have had, also, slack thrown at me, simply because I am female. Let me cite some examples :

"You're a girl, what do you know"
"Go run along beach, that's what you're good for"

and some more which if printed here, would bring forth this post itself removed because they are just so low and disgusting.

Am I griefing ? Am I a feminist ?

I don't feel I am because I have put up with some of the most lowest RL people who feel that a woman is nothing more useful than being in a kitchen. P/S : I always retort with "Well if your woman's always in the kitchen then you definitely don't know what to do as a man".

I have had friends tell me :
"Oh just ignore them. Don't let them get the better of you or they win". or
"Is that it ? I thought it was serious when you said you were upset".
"To play the game you need to have a thick skin. Otherwise, don't play."

DDO (and any other MMORPG games) is dominated by majority male players. But, at NO point should we disrespect ANY other human being simply because of gender, race, sexual orientation, IQ level or age. Behind that computer screen IS a human being OMG.

I speak especially for the female players out there, who encounter griefing and slack just because we are female. All I can say is : hold your dignity high and be proud to be woman. Don't let a game or anyone else tell you otherwise.

Narrow minded callous comments callously passed targeted at anyone should never be dismissed, don't ignore how your fellow player feels, don't dismiss us "just-because".

It was only recently in a raid I encountered 2 such players that I decided to write this post; when no one else in that raid felt they wanted to stand up for me, not say anything at all in my defence. I am tired of being silent and unheard. I am woman, hear me ROAR !

2015 is approaching. Stay the REAL person you are, fellow gamers, be true to your principles, treat everyone with love and respect. We shouldn't need a forum thread to remind us to, but sometimes maybe we do. Stay real and have a good gaming 2015 ahead.

C.

Alts : Seraphicus / Caireen / Nehalennia / Cyhiraeth / Antiopeia / Atlanteia / Calliopea / Nefyn / Setlocenia

I've been playing five years and in my experience women are better players than men. They work better in a team and aren't so caught up in there own ego they forget what they're doing. I'm a male player by the way.

[elkorm]

Complacency or the "it's just a game" attitude is a very nasty trap. I have fallen to it a couple of times myself, ignoring the offender "just to finish the quest". Won't go over details, would be another of those "Hi my name is Elk - *crowd* Hello Elk" kind of thing. Will suffice saying that in retrospect I am ashamed of myself staying in those groups till the quest was done. Being ashamed is a good thing, I keep telling myself, and means you still have a conscience.

Respect (for the human being behind the keyboard) is to be shown for everyone and should never be confused with respect for the playing skills (or directional sense...right Sofianna!).

Hugs
Elk

[Braegan]

yea. must b.

...

First Month of playing.
Korthos.
learned how ta group, finally.
joined a pug.

totally flamed on mic.
1. being Ranger
2. carrying bow.
3. being elf.
4. being female
5. punted from group

yea, it was mostly me own fault.
all i did was kite & die back then. :)
*shrug

still ranger
still carry bow full time
and yea, still elf.
but, oh, whats this?
Achillesia... pwning that good ol'boy/grumpy-old-man community every day since figuring it out.

So, yea, i guess i m just young & immature ta carry a bit of a grudge against jerks such as.

------

meantime...
Guild has four grrls scattered within, including leader.
Channel has around 13 among lots great guys? i think?
all use mic's.
no griefs. just good peeps & good times.
anyone out there having probs?
come Thelanis, look us up.

o, & again... any of you who srsly still believe its all just bs?
g'head... watch 5 min of SSSniperwolf @utube...
see the kind of vocal abuse she takes every time she pwns a male.

hilarious, & accurate.
but hey... i guess she's just too young & immature to roll over and die.

Ok. Seems you missed what I was getting at.

The fact is here are some jerks in the world, of both genders. You had some male jerks to you in the past. But you posting like it's every male, or some kind of male disorder that causes some jerks to act like jerks and lumping together jerk and non jerk alike doesn't help any situation in a positive way. That's what I meant by taking a step backwards. It doesn't further anything positively. Most likely, the jerks laugh because they feel they "got" to you, while non jerks are offended you placed them into the same category as jerks just because they share the same gender.

If you want to call a spade a spade that is all well and fine, but making huge sweeping generalizations based on gender is not ok.

Hope that is made a bit clearer.

[darkly_dreaming]

The only real answer is to be the better person. If someone is a jerk, squelch them and move on. If a group is participating in behavior that you don't agree with, drop group and move on. Have difficulty joining a PUG that shares your play style/personality, post your own group and move on.

I, too, am a female player and have encountered some total jerks during my years playing DDO. However, I choose (most of the time, I might have told one or two exactly what I thought of them. Politely of course. Um hmm.) to not engage, and make sure they never pollute my play space again. The vast VAST majority of players I've encountered and enjoyed playing with were interesting, intelligent, and had a great sense of humor and I don't ever log on and think 'I wonder how many males are going to be ignorant jerks today'. It's very much about attitude, on both sides.

[Livmo]

Gender war may be a symptom related to:


http://www.yourdictionary.com/emotional-maturity

Emotional maturity is defined as how well you are able to respond to situations, control your emotions and behave in an adult manner when dealing with others.

Or lack thereof.

Sad to see the thread go south, but I'm sure the popcorn peeps are still diggin it.

[Kawai]

Ok. Seems you missed what I was getting at.

The fact is here are some jerks in the world, of both genders. You had some male jerks to you in the past. But you posting like it's every male, or some kind of male disorder that causes some jerks to act like jerks and lumping together jerk and non jerk alike doesn't help any situation in a positive way. That's what I meant by taking a step backwards. It doesn't further anything positively. Most likely, the jerks laugh because they feel they "got" to you, while non jerks are offended you placed them into the same category as jerks just because they share the same gender.

If you want to call a spade a spade that is all well and fine, but making huge sweeping generalizations based on gender is not ok.

Hope that is made a bit clearer.

of course. & bygones.
*shrug
i mean, i know ive a bit of #chip-on-shoulder, & admit @totally being smartassed in return sometimes, or, a lot...
but i think ive stated repeatedly its most deff NOT all people.
-its good & bad, like everyone else.
everyone has diff experiences, which form our opinions.

however... in gaming world, there is still mucho hostility @women.
why? only a Professor could attempt to answer that.

there is still good ways 2go.

[MeliCat]

Meh, no need for smackdowns.

Poster you quoted is just young and immature.

I do agree posts like that do take things back a step, instead of progressing forward. But, that is youth. They really think they have all the answers. :p

You mean Ykt. Yeah probably. But he's set an example here mimmicing the usual "wot people think" even if they don't say it.

The other example set by someone else in this thread I have tried to address by PM but they haven't "got it". That particular point is way more damaging to my mind. What is more this particular point that they have made directly contradicts the OP and was again addressed by the OP. Very disappointed in them as they perpetuate a standard that applies everywhere and continues the voicelessness. :/

[MeliCat]

Gender war may be a symptom related to:


http://www.yourdictionary.com/emotional-maturity

Emotional maturity is defined as how well you are able to respond to situations, control your emotions and behave in an adult manner when dealing with others.

Or lack thereof.

Sad to see the thread go south, but I'm sure the popcorn peeps are still diggin it.

The popcorn people are fairly toxic on any topic that goes near gender yes. I like that term for them :) Good choice.

I don't think it's [edit: just a blanket] emotional immaturity. Society conditions us from a very young age so people just don't see stuff when it's happening - there is a culturally conditioned blindness to things. I know for myself there has been all sorts of tiny bits of discrimination I've bought into and from time to time I have had "oh oops!" moments and have had to change my thinking. Ah well. Each of us has our own paths for growing up in all different parts of our lives at different rates.

Going old skool I think just the "Be excellent to one another" is just the best possible life motto. :) :D

[Braegan]

You mean Ykt. Yeah probably. But he's set an example here mimmicing the usual "wot people think" even if they don't say it.

The other example set by someone else in this thread I have tried to address by PM but they haven't "got it". That particular point is way more damaging to my mind. What is more this particular point that they have made directly contradicts the OP and was again addressed by the OP. Very disappointed in them as they perpetuate a standard that applies everywhere and continues the voicelessness. :/

Actually I meant Kawai. Sorry the way I worded it was confusing. :(

[Livmo]

The popcorn people are fairly toxic on any topic that goes near gender yes. I like that term for them :) Good choice.

I don't think it's [edit: just a blanket] emotional immaturity. Society conditions us from a very young age so people just don't see stuff when it's happening - there is a culturally conditioned blindness to things. I know for myself there has been all sorts of tiny bits of discrimination I've bought into and from time to time I have had "oh oops!" moments and have had to change my thinking. Ah well. Each of us has our own paths for growing up in all different parts of our lives at different rates.

Going old skool I think just the "Be excellent to one another" is just the best possible life motto. :) :D

Gender aside for a moment and regardless of the source, Bible or science, which both claim we are all related, I like Dr. Suess's Star Belly Sneetches, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sneetches_and_Other_Stories.

It's not uncommon for people all over the planet to define themselves in this way whether its gender, religion, country of origin, state or town in US, HS you attended, etc. Allot of folks can only see, I am who I am, because of who I am not.

The human race is vexing in general, because I'm not sure where we are in a hurry to get to?

However, I do think it's unfortunate that we create barriers and such distinctions in our family. Gender has no bearing on game play or how well you play it. There will always be somebody better at it than you or I regardless of gender.

I think you made a fantastic point. Treat others how you would like to be treated. Be kind to one another and have respect. Or as you put it simply, ""Be excellent to one another".

None of us get out of this world alive.

[MeliCat]

""Be excellent to one another".


It's a Bill and Ted reference that I got slightly wrong - "Be excellent to each other" is the wording. Someone will be along shortly to post a picture meme :D

[Livmo]

http://tomdale.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Bill_and_ted_be_excellent_to_each_other.gif

[phillymiket]

Hey, glad OP found some form of resolution.
The guild in question has always been a real class act and I have great respect for them.
Without going into what should or shouldn't have happened in party, I think it is very forthright for the Leader to post here and apologize and it's also great that OP accepted said apology.


When someone is trying to be someone else, this shows. Whether people want to notice it or not is their business, but if someone wants to notice that, he/she can.

I guess i allow more for the possibility that I am mistaken.
Maybe you have a more keen insight into the human animal than me.
Or maybe your confidence in your judgement is so high because your insight is so dull.


Btw, since I posted again, when you play a male toon, I'll call you "he" and when a female, I'll call you "she". No need to correct me. I will keep doing this, because you chose to play an opposite gender. If you don't like being called "he"/"she" then don't play an opposite gender.

Ah ok sure, call me whatever you want.
This statement seems quite random to me and I have no idea what your point is.

I guess you are one of those people that finds a male having a female avatar or vice-versa strange in some way.
Sorry for you then. I guess you never picked Chun-Li either (what would people think?!?).

When you say "No need to correct me. I will keep doing this, because you chose to play an opposite gender.", does this mean even after you find out I am male (I have an extremely deep and unmistakably male voice and I use voice chat) you will still call me "She"?
Is this some form of punishment?
If so, for what crime?

[dunklezhan]

It's a Bill and Ted reference that I got slightly wrong - "Be excellent to each other" is the wording. Someone will be along shortly to post a picture meme :D

Yours has more elegance. I'm adopting it henceforth.

[Monkey-Boy]

Never apologize, it is a sign of weakness.

[MeliCat]

Never apologize, it is a sign of weakness.

Apologizing for the right things, taking ownership and trying to make amends is a sign of courage and character strength.

[Monkey-Boy]

Apologizing for the right things, taking ownership and trying to make amends is a sign of courage and character strength.

Nonsense.

The people who offended the OP did nothing wrong, apologizing to her is nothing more than caving in to a cyber-bully.

You don't apologize to those people, ever.

[Wh070aa]

Okay.
Let me explain something.

There are no women on the internet. This means gender does not mater, unless you bring it up. If you bring it up, you are likely attention *****, or expect special treatment. I am tired of people, expecting special privileges, just because of their gender, sexuality, or whatever. I had a player straight up say to me that she is a lesbian, and wants me to treat her differently because of it. Like why? I did not even ask her anything.

Also you need tick skin when you are on internet, or anywhere really. If someone insults you, and you rage, you can only blame yourself. I been told to shut up because "I don't know anything" plenty of times, with plenty of terms. So? I don't care.

Stop expecting special treatment because of your gender. Stop raging on trolls. That's it. Respect must be earned. A lot of women get respect, just because they are woman in real life, but when they need to build it up when they don't have bunch of horny males "respecting(/acting polite" to them because of their gender, they think that they are being discriminated against. Its not the case. You are being treated equally as anyone else.

I might be in the small part with all the white knights,feminists and SJW, but I know this is true. I played many games with women, and none of them got harassed, before doing something that ****ed people off. Any male would get harassed in same case too, but woman usually cant take even a little heckling. Those that can, and just play on, are respected. Those that start screaming -"I am woman, don't do this to me" want preferential treatment because of their gender, and are shunned, because of being worthless human beings, whose only worth is their gender.

Go ahead report me, and call me a harasser. I am just telling it as I see it.

[Eth]

There are no women on the internet.

The Internet: where men are men, women are men, and children are FBI agents.

[Wizza]

I never got anyone to tell me that they enjoy grouping with me or appreciate my patience and sense of humor :(

[MeliCat]

Okay.
Let me explain something.

There are no women on the internet. This means gender does not mater, unless you bring it up. If you bring it up, you are likely attention *****, or expect special treatment. I am tired of people, expecting special privileges, just because of their gender, sexuality, or whatever. I had a player straight up say to me that she is a lesbian, and wants me to treat her differently because of it. Like why? I did not even ask her anything.

Also you need tick skin when you are on internet, or anywhere really. If someone insults you, and you rage, you can only blame yourself. I been told to shut up because "I don't know anything" plenty of times, with plenty of terms. So? I don't care.

Stop expecting special treatment because of your gender. Stop raging on trolls. That's it. Respect must be earned. A lot of women get respect, just because they are woman in real life, but when they need to build it up when they don't have bunch of horny males "respecting(/acting polite" to them because of their gender, they think that they are being discriminated against. Its not the case. You are being treated equally as anyone else.

I might be in the small part with all the white knights,feminists and SJW, but I know this is true. I played many games with women, and none of them got harassed, before doing something that ****ed people off. Any male would get harassed in same case too, but woman usually cant take even a little heckling. Those that can, and just play on, are respected. Those that start screaming -"I am woman, don't do this to me" want preferential treatment because of their gender, and are shunned, because of being worthless human beings, whose only worth is their gender.

Go ahead report me, and call me a harasser. I am just telling it as I see it.


I'd love to believe this. I really would. I totally wish this was true.

[dunklezhan]

white knights,feminists and SJW,


Ahhh, good old labels and boxes. Who doesn't like being labelled and boxed?

/sigh. **** sapiens sapiens. Is there anything you can't make harder than it has to be?

edit: rofl. Our species is a bad word. That says everything I could possibly have said on the subject of why labelling and boxing people is such a silly thing to do, all neatly encapsulated in four tiny stars. Heck, it says everything I could possibly say about the carbon the universe wastes by bothering with our DNA.

[Nefatron]

whoooaa..

What the heck happened to this thread lol

When I first posted it was about respecting players now we got some dude ranting about girls being attention *****s and respect needs to be earned and ... my god man did you mom not hold you dude lol

You need a hug

Anyways, I do agree respect is earned but some level of baseline respect needs to happen instantly when you meet someone.
Are you gonna act disrespectful to your in-laws, boss, girl friends friends cause they have yet to prove them selves to you?

Iunno man your preaching something my 21'st century head just cant wrap arround



____________
I had to read your post again to see if I was really seeing what i was seeing but it got worse! lol
You generalized a entire sex man lol
Your opinions are yours but...

[Wh070aa]

whoooaa..

What the heck happened to this thread lol

When I first posted it was about respecting players now we got some dude ranting about girls being attention *****s and respect needs to be earned and ... my god man did you mom not hold you dude lol

You need a hug

Anyways, I do agree respect is earned but some level of baseline respect needs to happen instantly when you meet someone.
Are you gonna act disrespectful to your in-laws, boss, girl friends friends cause they have yet to prove them selves to you?

Iunno man your preaching something my 21'st century head just cant wrap arround



____________
I had to read your post again to see if I was really seeing what i was seeing but it got worse! lol
You generalized a entire sex man lol
Your opinions are yours but...


The thing is, many people expect to be treated as in laws, or bosses, but they don't realize, that they leave impression of a 12 year old that just threw a milk bottle at wall, and get treated as such. This especially applies to pretty females, and elderly, and spoiled kids, as they get treated better, and so expect the base treatment to be better.
On internet you get judged by impression you leave. You don't get the same amount of respect as RL. Baseline respect is way lower than many people think.
As for generalization of something, the thing is that stereotypes are mostly true. Yes there are exceptions, but you can mostly assume things, if couple of factors are in play. I call them red flags, but whatever is fine. If people do certain things, and are of certain background, they tend to fallow some patters of action, and thinking, as they generally have similar experiences, and mindset.

I don't have the time to be politically correct and nice to every stranger. I am polite at first, but if you do certain things, I am categorizing you under a stereotype. The gender, race, or whatever doesn't matter, just that certain genders, or racial backgrounds produce more people that are in the category, and as such are under bigger scrutiny to be in it.

For example, it's generally accepted to teach men not to cry, so after having that bored into them for years, older men are way less likely to cry, when faced with situations where some people would cry. Same with age categories, if you grew up in 80's, its likely that you like 80's music, and have stronger belief in propaganda that they were spreading at the time. Its not guaranteed, but if you look around that age, and listen to the music, well I gonna apply the stereotype to you, and be right most of the time, and as such know what to say, and not say, allowing for better , happier interactions (not pointing out positive things about communism for example).

Stereotyping allows better interactions with people that you don't know. It's a good thing.

I was just pointing out that the way about the OP is acting likely means that she has not earned any respect from players she wanted respect from, and reasons why, and tips on how to earn the respect.

Also just consider the points I made, instead of stereotyping me as a person that "needs a hug", and is "not loved by his mother". I just came back from eating dinner with her, thank you wherry much. Whats up with the personal attacks, instead of actual discussion of the topic.

I don't candy coat my words when talking to people I don't care about, especially when they do nothing that wold warrant respect to them, or do something that warrants disrespect. OP just seemed ignorant of what she did to earn the said disrespect.

Anyhow /popcorn.

[sebastianosmith]

Stereotyping allows better interactions with people that you don't know. It's a good thing.

...

Also just consider the points I made, instead of stereotyping me as a person that "needs a hug", and is "not loved by his mother".


http://m.memegen.com/pyjmlh.jpg

[Nefatron]

http://m.memegen.com/pyjmlh.jpg

aaaahahahahahahahha

[Noobtastic]

Stereotypes are dangerous when applied to individuals. They are only useful in the context of evaluating the properties of a group. Individuals should not be boxed or labeled accordingly. For instance the stereotypical female shoe size is 7. As a shoe store manager it may be useful to stock more size 7 shoes as you are catering to the group. But as an employee you certainly wouldn't try to put a size 7 shoe on every female that walks into the store. I'm sure you can see how absolutely ridiculous it is to automatically apply the stereotype to an individual.

[Kawai]

Stereotypes are dangerous when applied to individuals. They are only useful in the context of evaluating the properties of a group. Individuals should not be boxed or labeled accordingly. For instance the stereotypical female shoe size is 7. As a shoe store manager it may be useful to stock more size 7 shoes as you are catering to the group. But as an employee you certainly wouldn't try to put a size 7 shoe on every female that walks into the store. I'm sure you can see how absolutely ridiculous it is to automatically apply the stereotype to an individual.

Shooooooooes! :o
...so shineyyyyyyy...

sz 4 pls ^.^

[Kawai]

I never got anyone to tell me that they enjoy grouping with me or appreciate my patience and sense of humor :(

become a Thelani, Wizzy. we'd luvz ya

[TrinityTurtle]

To sum up this white knight thread:

- Men are evil

- Women are kind princesses



Great way to miss the point of the thread! Which is: Men and Woman are both human beings, and should be treated the same. Women should not be treated like they are: Stupid, sex objects, require assistance in quests, or are lower than dirt; the minute their voice on voice chat identifies them. No one is asking for special treatment, we're asking to be treated regularly, and NOT get special treatment.

[Saekee]

The thing is, many people expect to be treated as in laws, or bosses, but they don't realize, that they leave impression of a 12 year old that just threw a milk bottle at wall, and get treated as such. This especially applies to pretty females, and elderly, and spoiled kids, as they get treated better, and so expect the base treatment to be better.
On internet you get judged by impression you leave. You don't get the same amount of respect as RL. Baseline respect is way lower than many people think.
As for generalization of something, the thing is that stereotypes are mostly true. Yes there are exceptions, but you can mostly assume things, if couple of factors are in play. I call them red flags, but whatever is fine. If people do certain things, and are of certain background, they tend to fallow some patters of action, and thinking, as they generally have similar experiences, and mindset.

I don't have the time to be politically correct and nice to every stranger. I am polite at first, but if you do certain things, I am categorizing you under a stereotype. The gender, race, or whatever doesn't matter, just that certain genders, or racial backgrounds produce more people that are in the category, and as such are under bigger scrutiny to be in it.

For example, it's generally accepted to teach men not to cry, so after having that bored into them for years, older men are way less likely to cry, when faced with situations where some people would cry. Same with age categories, if you grew up in 80's, its likely that you like 80's music, and have stronger belief in propaganda that they were spreading at the time. Its not guaranteed, but if you look around that age, and listen to the music, well I gonna apply the stereotype to you, and be right most of the time, and as such know what to say, and not say, allowing for better , happier interactions (not pointing out positive things about communism for example).

Stereotyping allows better interactions with people that you don't know. It's a good thing.

I was just pointing out that the way about the OP is acting likely means that she has not earned any respect from players she wanted respect from, and reasons why, and tips on how to earn the respect.

Also just consider the points I made, instead of stereotyping me as a person that "needs a hug", and is "not loved by his mother". I just came back from eating dinner with her, thank you wherry much. Whats up with the personal attacks, instead of actual discussion of the topic.

I don't candy coat my words when talking to people I don't care about, especially when they do nothing that wold warrant respect to them, or do something that warrants disrespect. OP just seemed ignorant of what she did to earn the said disrespect.

Anyhow /popcorn.

I think you are confusing the terms stereotyping vs making generalizations because stereotypes are born from false generalizations--which in fact is about every statement you have made except when specifically referring to your own actions.
Strange that you celebrate this, making me think--have you reflected critically about masculinity?

[Inoukchuk]

The thing is, many people expect to be treated as in laws, or bosses, but they don't realize, that they leave impression of a 12 year old that just threw a milk bottle at wall, and get treated as such. This especially applies to pretty females, and elderly, and spoiled kids, as they get treated better, and so expect the base treatment to be better.
On internet you get judged by impression you leave. You don't get the same amount of respect as RL. Baseline respect is way lower than many people think.
As for generalization of something, the thing is that stereotypes are mostly true. Yes there are exceptions, but you can mostly assume things, if couple of factors are in play. I call them red flags, but whatever is fine. If people do certain things, and are of certain background, they tend to fallow some patters of action, and thinking, as they generally have similar experiences, and mindset.

I don't have the time to be politically correct and nice to every stranger. I am polite at first, but if you do certain things, I am categorizing you under a stereotype. The gender, race, or whatever doesn't matter, just that certain genders, or racial backgrounds produce more people that are in the category, and as such are under bigger scrutiny to be in it.

For example, it's generally accepted to teach men not to cry, so after having that bored into them for years, older men are way less likely to cry, when faced with situations where some people would cry. Same with age categories, if you grew up in 80's, its likely that you like 80's music, and have stronger belief in propaganda that they were spreading at the time. Its not guaranteed, but if you look around that age, and listen to the music, well I gonna apply the stereotype to you, and be right most of the time, and as such know what to say, and not say, allowing for better , happier interactions (not pointing out positive things about communism for example).

Stereotyping allows better interactions with people that you don't know. It's a good thing.

I was just pointing out that the way about the OP is acting likely means that she has not earned any respect from players she wanted respect from, and reasons why, and tips on how to earn the respect.

Also just consider the points I made, instead of stereotyping me as a person that "needs a hug", and is "not loved by his mother". I just came back from eating dinner with her, thank you wherry much. Whats up with the personal attacks, instead of actual discussion of the topic.

I don't candy coat my words when talking to people I don't care about, especially when they do nothing that wold warrant respect to them, or do something that warrants disrespect. OP just seemed ignorant of what she did to earn the said disrespect.

Anyhow /popcorn.

His manner is abrupt and off-putting, but if you look past the less appropriate stuff... lost in there somewhere he actually makes some valid points. It's a little like the premise behind the show "The Voice" - your try-out is blind so that they can judge your talent without prejudice. Why? Because we all are guilty of it, every last one of us, to some degree or another. The internet is much the same. His points about people getting treated differently in RL is accurate, I know I do it myself. If you are a child, or elderly, and yes probably even a woman, I'm going to generally try harder to be appropriate, polite, kind, whatever than I am with some 20 year old wearing his hat sideways and his jeans around his mid-thigh. On the internet, we all start off anonymous and equal and are judged on our social interaction.

This ignores, of course, that in voice chat people can hear if you are female and may well react differently to you, sometimes in a negative way. But the other side of the conversation ignores the real possibility that the OP did something to provoke this kind of response. None of us know, and the response was almost certainly inappropriate regardless..... so let's focus on that. Even if you lose respect for someone, unless they've done something heinous or attacked you personally in some way, there is no call for personal attacks like the ones directed towards the OP. A mild loss of respect isn't the same as "feel free to openly and aggressively treat with disrespect". Can we all agree on that? Everything seems like over-thinking the obvious.

[Cordovan]

This thread is no longer productive, and needs to be closed. As always, harassment can be reported in-game using the harassment tools available.