Best level drain epic melee build?

[Saekee]

Update 7/01/2017: Current summary of thoughts from everyone is in post#33 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/453877-Best-level-drain-epic-melee-build?p=5512998&viewfull=1#post5512998).


As title--any thoughts? All assume Improved critical feat if needed
1) Dual wielding Nightmares on a paladin (Holy Sword) in Divine crusader (grindy to get them) or a fighter splash with tier 5 Keen edge
2) Combination of Swashbuckler and vampire form with Epic Envenomed Blade and mabar augment with Perfect SWF or maybe with a Cormyrian weapon with Life Stealing, also in Divine crusader and tier 5 swash OR with Sacrificial daggers OR a rare lootgen Obscenity light weapon.
3) Vampire monk and grave wrappings (easiest to do). Fast handwrap attack speed, averages 3 neg levels on a 20 with defensive bonus of 35 hp shield.
4) Vampire rogue TWF with knife specialization and sacrificial daggers in Divine Crusader.
5) SWF Vamp monk using LCEWS. I believe the neg leveling procs on the doublestrike (since void and SCEWL) also proc on the DS) and vamp neg leveling will proc more often with PSWF


I assume these would be better than a staff build, even with staff buffs and LD's crit range staff bonus.

I feel like vamp forms need the tier 5 for their shroud to reduce light vulnerability, making their combo with other tier 5 enhancements problematic like #2 and #4 above.

14 Pally 6 wiz vamp would be just dumb...

Thoughts?

[Mercureal]

Go for a Vampire Wizard Monk, Path of Harmonious Balance:

- Take Henshin Mystic tier 5 (who cares about light damage!) for the ability Every Light Casts a Shadow (http://ddowiki.com/page/Henshin_Mystic_enhancements): 1-4 neg level special attack, plus area effect if the enemy dies quickly

- get the Wave of Despair extra from tier 1 Ninja Spy for an area effect level drain on your dark finisher

- spam Enervation, Necrotic Blast and Necrotic Ray

- for Heroic levels, if you have the Dreamspitter (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Dreamspitter) or a version of the [Staff of the Shadow (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Staff_of_the_Shadow), take the Cleave feat and liberally use it and Eldritch Strike from the Eldritch Knight tree

- avoid any quest that has enemies with light attacks

....

- Profit!

[Saekee]

Go for a Vampire Wizard Monk, Path of Harmonious Balance:

- Take Henshin Mystic tier 5 (who cares about light damage!) for the ability Every Light Casts a Shadow (http://ddowiki.com/page/Henshin_Mystic_enhancements): 1-4 neg level special attack, plus area effect if the enemy dies quickly

- get the Wave of Despair extra from tier 1 Ninja Spy for an area effect level drain on your dark finisher

- spam Enervation, Necrotic Blast and Necrotic Ray

- for Heroic levels, if you have the Dreamspitter (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Dreamspitter) or a version of the [Staff of the Shadow (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Staff_of_the_Shadow), take the Cleave feat and liberally use it and Eldritch Strike from the Eldritch Knight tree

- avoid any quest that has enemies with light attacks

....

- Profit!

hey Mercureal, great advice and thanks for responding! I had considered the tier 5 henshin but my main worry is that vamp form really needs its Tier 5 since it reduces light damage, the weak spot of vamp form. I agree that definitely one of the advantages of the vampire splashes is the use of level draining spells in advance of melee. I wonder if it is redundant, though--if the effects of level drain taper out too quickly to be of use once one is draining so many levels.

Also, I wonder if the extended critical threat range offered by Divine Crusader might make the other options more effective?

[Mercureal]

I was being partly facetious, vamp form definitely makes light damage painful. :) But, I think Henshin is the way to go if you're looking to strictly max out melee level drain abilities.

In terms of epic levels, extending the critical range will help with any of the weapons but it's hard to compare effectiveness without knowing the exact chance that you get with lifestealing. Grave Wrappings give you a guaranteed drain on a 20 and the higher monk attack rate - I'm not sure at what % and crit range that balances out with lifestealing.

I've never used Nightmare, but I have used dual Sacrificial Daggers and Grave Wrappings on the same build in a past life - I didn't measure it, but rate of level drain 'felt' significantly higher with the wraps. I didn't have IC: Pierce, but I had Rogue levels and had taken Knife Specialization, so I had an 18-20 crit range. Anecdotal and therefore useless, but there you go. :)

On effectiveness, for Heroic I don't think most monsters will survive long enough to regenerate any lost levels. The might on epic, but I don't remember the Hit Points they lose coming back. A player posted a thread early last year with results his testing of the mechanic that might be a little use: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/407401

[Saekee]

I had forgotten about that thread--must have been one of the unconscious motivations.
Looks like grave wrappings have more going on than standard energy drain. Also, even if a mob quickly gets its levels back (in epics, which is the interest here for me), the hit points do not recovery. Happens to players also--same idea.

Maybe the Henshin might work with one of the draining staves since tier5 Henshin also has staff expanded profile. Outside of the heroic ones, the other seems rare to get.

[Mercureal]

Sacrificial Dagger is fairly easy to get, either through the Quest Chain reward or the AH, but the other Epic weapons would be more challenging. Dreamspitter would probably be tricky too, even though it's heroic it's a raid weapon, and I don't know how often Reaver's Fate is run these days. Staff of Shadow is fairly easy to farm and is bound to account - and the crafted variants are BTCoE, so easy enough to make and transfer to another character.

[Saekee]

well there are the life stealing cormyrian options--the ingredients are not too high and you can recrunch them if the weapon stinks.

[Mindos]

As title--any thoughts? All assume Improved critical feat if needed
1) Dual wielding Nightmares on a paladin (Holy Sword) in Divine crusader (grindy to get them) or a fighter splash with tier 5 Keen edge
2) Combination of Swashbuckler and vampire form with Epic Envenomed Blade and mabar augment with Perfect SWF or maybe with a Cormyrian weapon with Life Stealing, also in Divine crusader and tier 5 swash OR with Sacrificial daggers OR a rare lootgen Obscenity light weapon.
3) Vampire monk and grave wrappings (easiest to do). Fast handwrap attack speed, averages 3 neg levels on a 20 with defensive bonus of 35 hp shield.
4) Vampire rogue TWF with knife specialization and sacrificial daggers in Divine Crusader.


I assume these would be better than a staff build, even with staff buffs and LD's crit range staff bonus.

I feel like vamp forms need the tier 5 for their shroud to reduce light vulnerability, making their combo with other tier 5 enhancements problematic like #2 and #4 above.

14 Pally 6 wiz vamp would be just dumb...

Thoughts?


Don't forget ruby of the endless night...

[Mercureal]

well there are the life stealing cormyrian options--the ingredients are not too high and you can recrunch them if the weapon stinks.

Yes, but that could get tedious quickly, unless you have a lot of materials saved up or love the challenges. :) At one point I collected enough ingredients to make 10 or 11 items, trying to get just the right set of effects on a caster staff for my Divine Disciple cleric. Even with recrunching, which gave me about 15 total pulls, the best version was just okay.

Continuing on, if you have materials or are willing to run Shroud, you could make an Enervation weapon - I think Shroud weapon effects are about 4-5%, so approximately equal frequency to a roll of 20. And you could make an Enervation Guard accessory too, for extra level draining goodness.

And for light resistance, there's an ability in the Exalted Angel tree that reduces it by 30%, which is twistable. And I think Shadowdancer has a Protection from Light ability, although it only shields about 150 points from what I remember.

Edited to add: And I just remembered the obvious, which is the new-ish random weapon effects feeding and draining, guaranteed level drains on a 20 with temporary hit points or spell points, respectively. An easy way to fill the weapon slot while looking for a named item, the Auction House and quest loot tables are practically overflowing with them.

[Saekee]

Yes, but that could get tedious quickly, unless you have a lot of materials saved up or love the challenges. :) At one point I collected enough ingredients to make 10 or 11 items, trying to get just the right set of effects on a caster staff for my Divine Disciple cleric. Even with recrunching, which gave me about 15 total pulls, the best version was just okay.

Continuing on, if you have materials or are willing to run Shroud, you could make an Enervation weapon - I think Shroud weapon effects are about 4-5%, so approximately equal frequency to a roll of 20. And you could make an Enervation Guard accessory too, for extra level draining goodness.

And for light resistance, there's an ability in the Exalted Angel tree that reduces it by 30%, which is twistable. And I think Shadowdancer has a Protection from Light ability, although it only shields about 150 points from what I remember.

Edited to add: And I just remembered the obvious, which is the new-ish random weapon effects feeding and draining, guaranteed level drains on a 20 with temporary hit points or spell points, respectively. An easy way to fill the weapon slot while looking for a named item, the Auction House and quest loot tables are practically overflowing with them.
I forgot about greensteel enervation. But I think that would be more for heroics. The feeding/draining are vorpal life stealing for one level; as Mindos reminds, one could find one with a red augment slot and put in a ruby of endless night.
Was also thinking about that twist for light absorption but had forgotten about shadowdancer's ability as well. I nearly have an Epic Mirror Cloak pit together; I think in combination a tier 5 vamp with the twist would be doable.

Don't forget ruby of the endless night...
hi Mindos, thx--I had forgotten about those. They only work on vorpal but every bit counts! One could put one in the Epic envenomed blade and make it very effective on the Swash/vamp option above!
I think they could go in Nightmare to make it even more scary.
Too bad Obscenity weapons do not drop anymore.

I wonder if this could work with a thrower. I have a life stealing shuriken--maybe on a pure ninja halfling to expand the crit 2x? Probably borked.

[Firewall]

(...)I wonder if this could work with a thrower. I have a life stealing shuriken--maybe on a pure ninja halfling to expand the crit 2x? Probably borked.

Life Stealing works pretty well with a thrower. You can have a very high rate of level drains if you have the expanded crit range and attack rate of a pure monk (my Shuricannon can crit on 13-20 in Divine Crusader) with a Life Stealing Spelltouched shuriken (~33% chance of level drain on Crit).

The other option for throwers is a Thunderforged Shuriken with a slotted Ruby of Endless night and Crippling Flames as Tier 3 option:

Crippling Flames: On Crit: 135 to 325 Fire Damage. On Hit: 5% chance to apply 2 Negative Levels.

The high rate of fire makes for an awesome amout of level drains.

[Saekee]

Life Stealing works pretty well with a thrower. You can have a very high rate of level drains if you have the expanded crit range and attack rate of a pure monk (my Shuricannon can crit on 13-20 in Divine Crusader) with a Life Stealing Spelltouched shuriken (~33% chance of level drain on Crit).

The other option for throwers is a Thunderforged Shuriken with a slotted Ruby of Endless night and Crippling Flames as Tier 3 option:

Crippling Flames: On Crit: 135 to 325 Fire Damage. On Hit: 5% chance to apply 2 Negative Levels.

The high rate of fire makes for an awesome amout of level drains.

Hi Firewall, thx for the response. I read somewhere that the life stealing on Cormyrian weapons is borked and only procs on a vorpal instead of a crit. Have you found it to be otherwise? My internet is down but I am close to be able to use my level 24 life stealing shuriken.
In my last epic life I had fun as a shuricannon but do not recall how well the life stealing procced.
If it does work, a high dex high wisdom shurichucker in divine crusader could get the maximum level drains while 10K stars is active!

I feel like tier3 TF items for melees and ranged seem to always be mortal fear. Anyway the minimum level would result in 'endgame' useage which is for me means reincarnate again.

[Firewall]

Hi Firewall, thx for the response. I read somewhere that the life stealing on Cormyrian weapons is borked and only procs on a vorpal instead of a crit. Have you found it to be otherwise?(...)

I epic reincarnated just today so i cannot test it first hand but last time i used it it worked just fine. Keep in mind that they changed it a few updates ago to only have a CHANCE to proc on a crit. And that chance is about 33% according to DDOWiki (http://ddowiki.com/page/Life_Stealing). The high crit range and number of attacks still makes for a good number of procs.

[Firewall]

Ok i tested it today and the Life Stealing still seems to work fine on shuriken crits - even on non-vorpal ones. With Improved Precise Shot its fun to proc level drains all over groups of mobs.

[Saekee]

Ok i tested it today and the Life Stealing still seems to work fine on shuriken crits - even on non-vorpal ones. With Improved Precise Shot its fun to proc level drains all over groups of mobs.

Many thanks! Glad I pulled that lit2 caustic aligned life stealing shuriken!

[SealedInSong]

As title--any thoughts? All assume Improved critical feat if needed
1) Dual wielding Nightmares on a paladin (Holy Sword) in Divine crusader (grindy to get them) or a fighter splash with tier 5 Keen edge
2) Combination of Swashbuckler and vampire form with Epic Envenomed Blade and mabar augment with Perfect SWF or maybe with a Cormyrian weapon with Life Stealing, also in Divine crusader and tier 5 swash OR with Sacrificial daggers OR a rare lootgen Obscenity light weapon.
3) Vampire monk and grave wrappings (easiest to do). Fast handwrap attack speed, averages 3 neg levels on a 20 with defensive bonus of 35 hp shield.
4) Vampire rogue TWF with knife specialization and sacrificial daggers in Divine Crusader.


I'm still interested to see what the community says about the best level draining melee build. No offense to throwers, who are obviously awesome in any scenario given their attack rate.

[Xyfiel]

Life stealing was changed to 25% chance for each negative level to proc on a crit. So 1-3 neg levels on item looks like this:

1/4 (25%) one neg level
1/16 (25%x25%) two neg levels
1/64 (25%x25%x25%) three neg levels

Add this together:
16/64
4/64
1/64
21/64 = 32.8125%

This is why wiki shows ~33% based on testing to see a neg level proc. It doesn't show how many procced though. Disclaimer: I am on pain pills so my math may be way off.

[Firewall]

Life stealing was changed to 25% chance for each negative level to proc on a crit. So 1-3 neg levels on item looks like this:

1/4 (25%) one neg level
1/16 (25%x25%) two neg levels
1/64 (25%x25%x25%) three neg levels

Add this together:
16/64
4/64
1/64
21/64 = 32.8125%

This is why wiki shows ~33% based on testing to see a neg level proc. It doesn't show how many procced though. Disclaimer: I am on pain pills so my math may be way off.

Interesting. But where did you get this kind of info from?

[Firewall]

Go for a Vampire Wizard Monk, Path of Harmonious Balance:

- Take Henshin Mystic tier 5 (who cares about light damage!) for the ability Every Light Casts a Shadow (http://ddowiki.com/page/Henshin_Mystic_enhancements): 1-4 neg level special attack, plus area effect if the enemy dies quickly

- get the Wave of Despair extra from tier 1 Ninja Spy for an area effect level drain on your dark finisher

- spam Enervation, Necrotic Blast and Necrotic Ray

- for Heroic levels, if you have the Dreamspitter (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Dreamspitter) or a version of the [Staff of the Shadow (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Staff_of_the_Shadow), take the Cleave feat and liberally use it and Eldritch Strike from the Eldritch Knight tree

- avoid any quest that has enemies with light attacks

....

- Profit!

I think this is a good base for a melee level drain build. Splash at least one level of Rogue to gain +15% attack speed for staves and also take the Tier 5 Staff Specialization to expand your crit range with staves and run in Divine Crusader for even more crit range to get the most out of Life Stealing. In higher levels you can add the Ruby of Endless night and use an upgraded Dreampiercer (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Dreampiercer) or a Crippling Flame TF staff.

[Connman]

I am currently on my monk life. I was asked the question "what are you using to neg level everything" in a pug. The answer was RNG of feeding. There are better weapons I am sure, but 2 things to consider:

1. You need whirlwind attack. It is better than described for sure. It is not attack everyone around you once, it is attack everyone around you 4 times. Seems to give those results on handwraps only. Yes it takes 5 feats, take them or be gimp, all there is to it. I passed on that whirlwind attack many, many times on other toons. I was wrong. It rocks.

2. Chance of 1d3 neg levels on hit < always neg levels on a 20.

My tactics are healing mark, stunning blow (next target) stunning fist, healing mark, whirlwind attack, great cleave, quivering palm on the one that neg leveled, rinse repeat.

[Saekee]

Life stealing was changed to 25% chance for each negative level to proc on a crit. So 1-3 neg levels on item looks like this:

1/4 (25%) one neg level
1/16 (25%x25%) two neg levels
1/64 (25%x25%x25%) three neg levels

Add this together:
16/64
4/64
1/64
21/64 = 32.8125%

This is why wiki shows ~33% based on testing to see a neg level proc. It doesn't show how many procced though. Disclaimer: I am on pain pills so my math may be way off.
Veeeery interesting

I am currently on my monk life. I was asked the question "what are you using to neg level everything" in a pug. The answer was RNG of feeding. There are better weapons I am sure, but 2 things to consider:

1. You need whirlwind attack. It is better than described for sure. It is not attack everyone around you once, it is attack everyone around you 4 times. Seems to give those results on handwraps only. Yes it takes 5 feats, take them or be gimp, all there is to it. I passed on that whirlwind attack many, many times on other toons. I was wrong. It rocks.

2. Chance of 1d3 neg levels on hit < always neg levels on a 20.

My tactics are healing mark, stunning blow (next target) stunning fist, healing mark, whirlwind attack, great cleave, quivering palm on the one that neg leveled, rinse repeat.

What is RNG? I understand the feeding part--why not use Grave Wrappings?
Yes, Whirlwind attack actually works well with wraps!
Your approach is similar to my vamp monk suggestion. Glad to see a variant working well--I imagine it is the QP that lands so well due to the lower saves from the neg level.

[Firewall]

2. Chance of 1d3 neg levels on hit < always neg levels on a 20.

This is only true if your crit range is 19-20 or worse. With a 33% chance to land d3 negative levels you are already better off with a crit range of 18-20 because you have the same basic chance but do more negative levels on average. If you have higher attack speed and even higher crit range you will be far better than one negative level on a roll of 20 and of course you can have that vorpal level drain in addition to Life Stealing if you slot the ruby. And this does not prevent you from also taking Cleave or Whirlwind with a staff.

[Connman]

Veeeery interesting


What is RNG? I understand the feeding part--why not use Grave Wrappings?
Yes, Whirlwind attack actually works well with wraps!
Your approach is similar to my vamp monk suggestion. Glad to see a variant working well--I imagine it is the QP that lands so well due to the lower saves from the neg level.

RNG Random Number Generated : Just some stuff I grabbed off the list as this is get it done and move on for me.


This is only true if your crit range is 19-20 or worse. With a 33% chance to land d3 negative levels you are already better off with a crit range of 18-20 because you have the same basic chance but do more negative levels on average. If you have higher attack speed and even higher crit range you will be far better than one negative level on a roll of 20 and of course you can have that vorpal level drain in addition to Life Stealing if you slot the ruby. And this does not prevent you from also taking Cleave or Whirlwind with a staff.

Listen to this guy he clearly know more than me, I was just speaking for what I was experiencing right now.

[Mercureal]

I am currently on my monk life. I was asked the question "what are you using to neg level everything" in a pug. The answer was RNG of feeding. There are better weapons I am sure, but 2 things to consider:

1. You need whirlwind attack. It is better than described for sure. It is not attack everyone around you once, it is attack everyone around you 4 times. Seems to give those results on handwraps only. Yes it takes 5 feats, take them or be gimp, all there is to it. I passed on that whirlwind attack many, many times on other toons. I was wrong. It rocks.


4 attacks on each target? That's awesome, for any special on-hit effects and just for general melee. If that happens with each use, Whirlwind Attack just became much more attractive.

[Saekee]

Vampire (with at least 5 rogue) TWF with knife specialization and Sacrificial Daggers in Divine Crusader

13-20 crit range means critting 8x for every 20 attacks;
Of those, 8x.33 will proc 1-3 levels so 2.64 procs/20 hits; averaging 2 neg leves per proc = 5.28;
add vampire and you have 6.28 levels per 20 attacks, or nearly 1/3 of every attack removes a level.
Offhand adds another .8 attacks (5.024 neg levels) for 11.304 total negative levels in 20 mainhand attacks, basically over half.
(note that another option that would be identical is a Cormyrian rapier or kukri).



SWF, or rather PSWF, boosts the vampire since it increases the vorpal hit rate. Even then, say with the Envenomed blade Enervation (slotted with Ruby Endless) and its vorpal of 1-4 enervation,

2.5 from envenomed, 2 from vampire and 2 from ruby or 6.5 neg levels every 20 attacks (This assumes Perfect SWF which comes later in epic levels).
Since it attacks at 1.3 the speed of TWF, that is 1.3x6.5 or 8.45




1. PSWF with envenomed blades in vampire form, 20 attacks period: 8.45
2. Vampire TWF knife specialist in same period: 11.3
Neither counts doublestrike which will favor PSWF. Simply increase the above number per doublestrike%.
If a SWF has 20% doublestrike than the number becomes 10.14
OTOH for every % of doublestrike, the 11.3 will not increase directly. Instead, the 6.28 improves. So if a TWF has 20% doublestrike, the result would be 6.28x1.2=7.536 + 5.024=12.56

Let's further boost #2 above with 6 levels of Ranger tempest for offhand extra and PTWF which adds 5% Doublestrike and 10% offhand Doublestrike.
(E.g. So it could be a 6 ranger 5 rogue 9 wizard build)
Mainhand gets another 5% additional doublestrike, offhand goes from .8 to .88. Assuming 20% original doublestrike, than the number becomes:
7.85 mainhand + (6.28x.9 offhand = 5.65x10% doublestrike = 6.217, for a combined total of 14.067 or simply 14 neg levels for every 20 attack sequences.

Hence so far the best build is at least 6 levels of ranger tempest, 5 rogue for knife specialization, shroud of vampire (so minimum 6 levels, better to have at least 8) wielding a pair of sacrificial daggers slotted with Rubies of Endless Night in Epic Destiny Divine Crusader and with PTWF. Assuming at least 20% doublestrike, this will result in 14 negative levels for every 20 mainhand attacks.
The good news is that this is all easy to put together. Not sure how good an idea it would be for a vampire shroud to miss tier 5.

I may have messed up in there a bit, please correct if so.

Someone feel like calculating a bard swash PTWF wielding the sacrificial daggers in DC and in Vamp form? Then the vamp form can keep the tier 5 enhancement. I suspect that this will be quite good also. Same crit profile as knife specialist; less attacks but improved vamp bonus and improved ruby eye. This one might outdo the Ranger/roge/wiz one.

[Systern]

Hence so far the best build is at least 6 levels of ranger tempest, 5 rogue for knife specialization, shroud of vampire (so minimum 6 levels, better to have at least 8) wielding a pair of sacrificial daggers slotted with Rubies of Endless Night in Epic Destiny Divine Crusader and with PTWF. Assuming at least 20% doublestrike, this will result in 14 negative levels for every 20 mainhand attacks.
The good news is that this is all easy to put together. Not sure how good an idea it would be for a vampire shroud to miss tier 5.

I may have messed up in there a bit, please correct if so.



Sacrificial Daggers don't have slots.

[Saekee]

Sacrificial Daggers don't have slots.

AAAargh thx Systern for the correction. will recalc tomorrow.

[Xyfiel]

Interesting. But where did you get this kind of info from?

Mournlands forums from dev when he changed it. Note the math I did myself hence why I mentioned it may be wrong.

I also think that means you get 27/64 levels drained per crit, or ~42%. I know I don't use life stealing anymore.

[Saekee]

Mournlands forums from dev when he changed it. Note the math I did myself hence why I mentioned it may be wrong.

I also think that means you get 27/64 levels drained per crit, or ~42%. I know I don't use life stealing anymore.

Thx. I need to recalculate anyway since I confused the red slot on Epic Envenomed blade with the sacrificial dagger, which lacks one.
I think the best might be 12 ranger tempest/8 fighter tier 5 kensei, dual wielding cormyrian life stealing rapiers in Divine Crusader.

BTW anyone have defensive enervation guard suggestions to add to the fun? Will look into this later as well.

[Saekee]

nvm just saw that dragontouched armors offer enervation guard. Anything else?

[Firewall]

Life stealing was changed to 25% chance for each negative level to proc on a crit.

This implies three separate chances to proc a negative level which would sum up to 75% chance to drain a level on crit. You math below implies that the chances are dependant on each other (much like in 10k stars) so the second negative level would only occur if the first has already procced etc.



So 1-3 neg levels on item looks like this:

1/4 (25%) one neg level
1/16 (25%x25%) two neg levels
1/64 (25%x25%x25%) three neg levels

Add this together:
16/64
4/64
1/64
21/64 = 32.8125%

This is why wiki shows ~33% based on testing to see a neg level proc. It doesn't show how many procced though. Disclaimer: I am on pain pills so my math may be way off.

If this was true and the chances depended on each other people in game would see a 25% chance to drain (any number of) lifes. This is because we cannot easily determine how many levels we drained and the second and third chance for level drain would be included in the 25% base chance because the second and third drain never occurred outside the 25% chance of the first (e.g. 25% of the chances that drained one level on a crit would also drain a second level) so you cannot sum them up.

So either the formula you propose is way off (8% difference from what people report in DDOWiki) or the testing in DDOWiki was way off and the chance to drain (any number of) levels on a crit should be 25%.

[Saekee]

Mournlands forums from dev when he changed it. Note the math I did myself hence why I mentioned it may be wrong.

I also think that means you get 27/64 levels drained per crit, or ~42%. I know I don't use life stealing anymore.


This implies three separate chances to proc a negative level which would sum up to 75% chance to drain a level on crit. You math below implies that the chances are dependant on each other (much like in 10k stars) so the second negative level would only occur if the first has already procced etc.



If this was true and the chances depended on each other people in game would see a 25% chance to drain (any number of) lifes. This is because we cannot easily determine how many levels we drained and the second and third chance for level drain would be included in the 25% base chance because the second and third drain never occurred outside the 25% chance of the first (e.g. 25% of the chances that drained one level on a crit would also drain a second level) so you cannot sum them up.

So either the formula you propose is way off (8% difference from what people report in DDOWiki) or the testing in DDOWiki was way off and the chance to drain (any number of) levels on a crit should be 25%.

Interesting points. I think I will continue with the assumption that it is 33%. It seems sensible--it was a change from negging levels on every crit.

[Saekee]

So far there are really three possible approaches: TWF, SWF and wraps. The vampire form really only becomes worthwhile with PSWF since the shroud of the vampire's life stealing gets doubled with PSWF.

1) TWF
Since the sacrificial daggers lack an augment slot, they are no more appealing than any other life stealing weapon. Hence, for TWF, the better weapons would have a superior threat range: rapiers and kukris. The next step would be to expand the critical threat range of those weapons as much as possible, and also to get them to hit as often as possible. The double expanded crit range of the rapier or kukri should be 11-20, or a crit on 50% of attacks. Each critical hit has a 33% chance of draining 1-3 levels; I will assume that is an average of 2 levels (this may be a mistake). Hence, each critical hit will drain .666 levels. 10 critical hits out of 20 attacks signify 6.66 levels drained for every 20 attacks.
This simple goal suggests: 12 ranger/8 fighter TWF Tier 5 Kensei in DC with two Cormyrian life-stealing weapons (kukris or rapiers) or
Paladin using Holy Sword and 6 ranger (for extra offhand) or better:
Paladain (at least)15 (and even 1 monk for Deft strikes, even if uncentered)/+whatever.

12 ranger/8 fighter with PTWF and assuming 10% doublestrike from gear and past lives, plus 5% and 10% offhand Doublestrike from PTWF
for 20 attacks, we get 1.15 extra on mainhand and 1.1 offhand;
[(1.15x6.66)=7.659] + [(1.1x6.66)=7.326] totals 14.985 (say, 15) neg levels/20 attacks.

Paladin (assuming pure) will be very similar assuming 10% doublestrike from gear and past lives:
Zeal will increase the mainhand another 10%, so 1.25 while offhand is reduced to .8 (or .88 with PTWF).
[(1.25x6.66)=8.325] + [(.88x6.66)=5.86] totals 14.11 (say, 14) neg levels/20 attacks.
If monk is added, even one level, even if uncentered, for deft strikes (7 AP), this increases to:
[(1.25x6.66)=8.325] + [(.99x6.66)=6.6] totals 14.84 (nearly 15) neg levels/20 attacks.

2) SWF (perfect SWF)
Obviously swashbuckler; best weapon is one that procs heavily on vorpal. This indicates the Epic envenomed blade with Ruby of endless night.
The epic envenomed blade has Enervation on vorpal (If I understand correctly; it claims 5% chance so this might be incorrect).
Enervation is 1-4 levels averaging 2.5 (this average may also be incorrect). The other option is a Luck Blade with three rubies; assuming they stack, that would be 3 neg levels. Since I am not sure if they stack, AND given the rarety of both the Luck Blade as well as that many Rubies (barring duping), as well as the problem of wielding a level 8 blade in epic content, I will ignore this possibility.
secondly, vampire form adds a neg level on vorpal.
2.5 from envenomed, 2 from vampire and 2 from ruby or 6.5 neg levels every 20 attacks (This assumes Perfect SWF which comes later in epic levels).
Since it attacks at 1.3 the speed of TWF, that is 1.3x6.5 or 8.45
The swash tree offers a couple of points in doublestrike as well as Dashing scoundrel for 10% DS; we can add 4% DS from EK tree (since we presume at least 8 levels of wizard). This results in 16%DS plus the presumed 10% from random gear/PL sources for 26% DS. Hence 8.45x1.26=10.647
However, the Swash tree has bursts of 30% DS. Assuming the use of one of those bursts, we have 8.45x1.56=12.87
The Swash/vampire combination is similar to the TWF, assuming bursts of Doublestrike; otherwise, it falls behind significantly.

3) Monk handwraps
Monks get special options here due to the nature of wraps (and Grave Wrappings' Soul Eater), whirlwind strike (see above posts) and the Henshin's Tier 5 LCEWS
The wraps will only proc 1.9 (assuming Deft Strikes) on vorpal, for an average of 2 neg levels x 1.9=3.8; even with shroud of vampire this only comes to 5.7 However, Tier 5 Henshin will neg level all mobs AoE for a neg level upon death every 15 seconds and Whirlwind Attack causes multiple attacks on opponents in a 360 degree arc. One could also assume Cormyrian life stealing wraps in DC, giving a broader neg level range of 17-20 but still quite poor as compared to TWF above.
Note: As Mercureal mentions in the post below, monks get a 10% faster wraps attack speed, so one can increase the above numbers by 10%.

The above figures make several assumptions as noted and may be incorrect; please post any errors! Thanks.

[Mercureal]

Another thing to consider for Monk is the faster attack animation that results in more actual attack rolls per minute than a weapon-bearing TWF.

If I recall correctly (this is going back quite a ways) from Vanshilar's exhaustive testing, the unarmed rate was about 10% more attack animations per minute. This still probably isn't enough to make up for the disparity in critical ranges, but I just felt like you could use a bit more complexity to factor in. :)

[Saekee]

Another thing to consider for Monk is the faster attack animation that results in more actual attack rolls per minute than a weapon-bearing TWF.

If I recall correctly (this is going back quite a ways) from Vanshilar's exhaustive testing, the unarmed rate was about 10% more attack animations per minute. This still probably isn't enough to make up for the disparity in critical ranges, but I just felt like you could use a bit more complexity to factor in. :)

thx for the reminder Mercureal--I added a note mentioning it. I think the real strength of the monk is with the Henshin Tier combined with Whirlwind attack--hitting lots of mobs when you need to, otherwise using stunning fist against a single mob (and QP). The monk then makes for a rather balanced option in terms of single- and group-target.

The ranger/fighter TWF option could use manyshot with a life stealing bow for CC neg levels whereas the Paladin option would be rather limited to melee, albeit powerful as such.

[Saekee]

I am currently on my monk life. I was asked the question "what are you using to neg level everything" in a pug. The answer was RNG of feeding. There are better weapons I am sure, but 2 things to consider:

1. You need whirlwind attack. It is better than described for sure. It is not attack everyone around you once, it is attack everyone around you 4 times. Seems to give those results on handwraps only. Yes it takes 5 feats, take them or be gimp, all there is to it. I passed on that whirlwind attack many, many times on other toons. I was wrong. It rocks.

2. Chance of 1d3 neg levels on hit < always neg levels on a 20.

My tactics are healing mark, stunning blow (next target) stunning fist, healing mark, whirlwind attack, great cleave, quivering palm on the one that neg leveled, rinse repeat.

I have added your notes in the post above about Whirlwind attack; this makes a rather interesting option for the wraps.

[Connman]

On enervation guard : I have always liked this. I made some greensteel goggles of ash and had to take them off to be sure where the procs were coming from from the feeding.

On vampire builds, if someone mentioned it already, or didn't bother because it hasn't aged well, i don't know. But I am going to mention it anyway.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Phiarlan_Mirror_Cloak
http://ddowiki.com/images/Epic_Phiarlan_Mirror_Cloak.png

[Saekee]

On enervation guard : I have always liked this. I made some greensteel goggles of ash and had to take them off to be sure where the procs were coming from from the feeding.

On vampire builds, if someone mentioned it already, or didn't bother because it hasn't aged well, i don't know. But I am going to mention it anyway.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Phiarlan_Mirror_Cloak
http://ddowiki.com/images/Epic_Phiarlan_Mirror_Cloak.png

Yep mirror cloak is really good for vamps.

The GS enervation guard looks like it is actually relevant for epic play and could go well with these builds. Is that a dual shard or single shard?

[Mercureal]

Yep mirror cloak is really good for vamps.

The GS enervation guard looks like it is actually relevant for epic play and could go well with these builds. Is that a dual shard or single shard?

Dual Shard, unfortunately

[Xionanx]

Isn't this: (http://ddowiki.com/page/Obscenity)

A random loot effect now? So if someone manages to get that on a Returning Shuriken... wouldn't a shuriken throwing build like critzilla just be stupid. :p

[Saekee]

Isn't this: (http://ddowiki.com/page/Obscenity)

A random loot effect now? So if someone manages to get that on a Returning Shuriken... wouldn't a shuriken throwing build like critzilla just be stupid. :p

Hi Xionanx, Obscenity suffixes were sadly removed from the game, replaced by bland unimaginative ones like Acid IV.
I thought Critzilla was built around the Nightforged spike? For throwers, the way to expand their threat range is halfling, pure monk (shuriken), Holy Sword and fighter. AFAIK none of those would stack.

[SealedInSong]

Vampire

But after your exhaustive findings, how do you rate each of these in terms of "most negs per melee second"?

[Saekee]

But after your exhaustive findings, how do you rate each of these in terms of "most negs per melee second"?

hi SealedInSong, glad to see your interest. Based on post #33, the TWF version comes out ahead slightly; SWF is attractive though contingent upon how much doublestrike a player has (through gear and epic past lives etc.). However based upon this thread on CON drain (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454658-Best-CON-drain-epic-melee?p=5518212&viewfull=1#post5518212), I suggest combining the two debuffers via the SWF version (12 Wiz pale master, 5 bard/3 barbarian) in Wraith form wielding the easily acquired Sacrificial dagger with CON: Virulent poison (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sacrificial_Dagger). You will drain neg levels AND constitution while using good defenses like incorporeality, temp hit point bursts and self-cast displacement (Swashbuckling forces you in Light or no armor, though).

[Saekee]

hi SealedInSong, glad to see your interest. Based on post #33, the TWF version comes out ahead slightly; SWF is attractive though contingent upon how much doublestrike a player has (through gear and epic past lives etc.). However based upon this thread on CON drain (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/454658-Best-CON-drain-epic-melee?p=5518212&viewfull=1#post5518212), I suggest combining the two debuffers via the SWF version (12 Wiz pale master, 5 bard/3 barbarian) in Wraith form wielding the easily acquired Sacrificial dagger with CON: Virulent poison (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sacrificial_Dagger). You will drain neg levels AND constitution while using good defenses like incorporeality, temp hit point bursts and self-cast displacement (Swashbuckling forces you in Light or no armor, though).

I was just thinking again about the above advice I wrote. The issue is to be in light armor and not have evasion. Hence I would either dump the barb levels for 2 rogue, or dump the bard and SWF--push for TWF knife specialist, maybe 5 rogue 3 fighter or 6/2, with the choice of either dumping evasion and wearing heavy armor (trying to max out PRR/MRR) or staying with evasion (in which case the 6 bard/2 rogue SWF is better). I think the choice rests in gear you might already have. If aiming for heavy armor version than make sure to do a race with cheap Arcane Spell Failure reduction costs.