Main stats: Pros and Cons

[Makkuroi]

I wanted to have a look at the usefulness of main stats, and which build options they have. The main stat is the stat thats most important for DPS/killing, so its either the stat that boosts your damage most or the one your DCs are based on. Its basically the stat you put your extra stat points at level-up into, often theyre only 2-4 points higher than your other stats at character creation.

For many builds/classes the main stats are self evident (especially for DC casters), but with the recent additions of harper and swashbuckler, there are many build options which should not be ignored. Especially hybrid builds can benefit from the new flexibility, as can builds centered around epic destinies, which not necessarily require the same stats as the base class (There is an int-based shiradi sorc build somewhere around in this forums).

Strength

Weapon Damage:
basically all melee weapons, bows with bow strength feat

DCs
Tactical DCs: Stun, Trip, Sunder, some LD abilities

Saves: (-)

Skills: Jump, Swim - not that useful

Conclusion:
Str doesnt have much to offer except very flexible weapon damage which can be boosted more easily than other stats with effects and spells like divine might, rage and many others. Its still the go-to stat for dedicated melee builds.

Dexterity

Weapon Damage:
Class enhancements: Ninja Spy, Staff Acrobat (limited to certain weapons), Bard different tack (SWF only)
Racial enhancements: Elf (limited to certain weapons)
Named Weapons: several, for example tiefling assassins blade, Staff of Nat Gann, Abbot staff

DCs: very few (sweeping strikes from acrobat)

Saves and other benefits: Reflex Save, AC Dex Bonus (limited by Armor)

Skills: Open Lock, Sneak, Move Silently, Balance, Tumble

Conclusion:
Dex based builds only make sense when centered on a few enhancement trees which allow dex to damage. Shuriken builds, Elven AA, and acrobat builds come to mind, Ninja Short sword builds are at least possible. Except for Shuriken, Dex isnt optimal for most builds since dex cant benefit from divine might or know the angles (at least not as much as pure int builds).

Constitution

Weapon Damage:
Only racial enhancement: throw your weight around

DCs:
almost none (Sorc enhancements, Vanguard, Visage of Terror)

Saves and other benefits: Fortitude save, more HP per level

Skills: Concentration

Conclusion: Only useful for specific dwarf fighter or pally builds, for example dwarven defender parody (actually a bard but with fighter levels). These benefit from +6 con +20% HP defensive stances a lot.

Intelligence

Weapon Damage:
Enhancements: Harper for all weapons, Rogue Mechanic for Crossbows, Swashbuckler different tack for SWF
Spells: Artificer insightful damage (all Weapons)
Named Weapons: (Midnight greetings, Staff of the Seer)

DCs: Wizard and arti Spells, Assassinate, many destiny abilities (mainly draconic, magister, shadowdancer)

Saves and other benefits: Reflex (with insightful reflexes feat), more skillpoints per level

Skills: search, disable device, spellcraft, repair

Conclusion: Int is the main stat for wizards and artificers, and with the harper tree it offers excellent weapon damage, too. Int-based builds are very versatile nowadays, with the option to combine great spell/destiny DCs and good weapon damage (and trap skills) in one build.

Charisma

Weapon Damage:
Purple Dragon Knight (limited to swords), Swashbuckler different tack (SWF only)
Named Weapons (Elyd Edge, Mad Lute)

DCs: Sorceror and Bard Spells, Bard Abilities, Draconic DCs, EA Soundburst

Saves and other benefits: Will saves (with FoP feat), all saves (with Paladin divine grace)

Skills: UMD, Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Perform

Conclusion: Charisma based builds are very versatile, with UMD, great saves (if Pally), great STR-based damage from divine might (actually str-based damage is better for most cha builds than cha-based damage), and either bard or paladin abilities. The only problems are alignment restrictions.

Wisdom

Weapon Damage:
Few named weapons (Staff of the Seer, Forgotten Light)
Druid Spell: Flame Blade

DCs: Druid, Cleric, FVS spells, Monk abilities (stunning fist), GMoF and Exalted Angel Destiny abilities

Saves and other benefits: Will save, Monk AC bonus

Skills: Spot, Listen, Heal

Conclusion: Wis-based builds offer good DC casting/DC abilities, but weapon damage is extremely limited, as are saves. This makes wis-based hybrid builds decidedly weaker than cha or int builds.


Looking at all this, Id really love an enhancement option for wisdom to damage, as all other stats already possess this option. Of course, this would make clonk-like builds (cleric, fvs, or druid with monk splash) and DC monks more powerful, but I doubt they would be more powerful than a str/cha based build or a harper int build.

[FranOhmsford]

Dexterity

Weapon Damage:

Class enhancements: Ninja Spy, Staff Acrobat (limited to certain weapons)
Racial enhancements: Elf (limited to certain weapons)
Named Weapons: several, for example tiefling assassins blade, Staff of Nat Gann

DCs
very few (sweeping strikes from acrobat)

Saves
Reflex

Skills:
Open Lock, Sneak, Move Silently, Balance, Tumble

Conclusion:
Dex based builds only make sense when centered on a few enhancement trees which allow dex to damage. Shuriken builds, Elven AA, and acrobat builds come to mind, Ninja Short sword builds are at least possible. Except for Shuriken, Dex isnt optimal for most builds since dex cant benefit from divine might or know the angles.



Dex suffers greatly in my view from Int being the far superior main stat for a Rogue or Arti.
And Wis being absolutely essential for a Monk!

I'd love to see the Devs give Acrobats an option to ignore Int entirely and use Dex for Disable / Wis for Search {Also allow Mechs and Assassins the option to use Int for Spot while you're at it!}.

As for Monks - The Devs have made it abundantly clear in the Trip/Sunder threads that have popped up recently that they EXPECT us to MAX our DCs no matter what!
In fact they seem dead set on making DC abilities only usable at all by those who've got every possible buff!
So..
I'm not sure there's any way for them to make Dex a viable main stat for a Monk now!

[FranOhmsford]

Under STR you forgot encumbrance, which is meaningful if you get enfeebled and slowed to half movement/attack speed. Also a minimum STR is needed for some feats that also increase your combat ability. Your conclusion is poorly worded. STR is a must for almost all melee builds.

Under CON you totally missed +HP.

And you've missed that the OP is talking about viability as the MAIN stat - i.e. need to Max it out!

A base Str of 14 and a +6 item will give you the carrying capacity of a locomotive!
I've just logged on to my Lvl 7 Dwarf Fighter - Beyrton - who's currently sitting on 20 str {don't judge!} - and his bags = 19.5 lbs of 1,995.0 lbs

And Maxing Con? Really? Who maxes Con these days?

[FranOhmsford]

Fair enough, but is he - or is he not - listing pros and cons?

AS A MAIN STAT!

NOT of each stat as a whole but just when it's MAXED!

[FranOhmsford]

Okay so if for some reason someone wanted to max CON for a main stat (dwarf build) HP is NOT a pro? Got it.


Maybe you should actually go back and read the OP again as he's already made that point!


Constitution

Weapon Damage:
Only racial enhancement: throw your weight around

DCs:
almost none (Sorc enhancements, vanguard)

Saves: Fortitude

Skills: Concentration

Conclusion: Only useful for specific dwarf fighter or pally builds, for example dwarven defender parody. These benefit from +6 con +20% HP defensive stances a lot.

[FranOhmsford]

He didn't list HP as a pro. Go back and read my post.

It's right here:




Conclusion: Only useful for specific dwarf fighter or pally builds, for example dwarven defender parody. These benefit from +6 con +20% HP defensive stances a lot.


ONLY USEFUL FOR...

i.e. A PRO!

Yes also A CON but it's pretty clearly there!

[phillymiket]

For which class?

You list Rogue skills on pros/cons but don't list INT as even a consideration.

I've been having fun these days on a couple of INT builds and am enjoying having max everything (practically) in the skills department.

Maybe not the best DPS option, but I like "tool-box" rogues that can sneak, bluff/diplo/intimi anything, open rune locks, trap, umd, with balance, some heal for cocoons, etc etc.

The Harper tree makes INT seem a reasonable choice for me. You can even have Tactics beyond Assassinate now if you want. All I feel I am missing is the fact that there is no "Mind Rage" type temp buffs that increase INT like their are for STR or CON. That and it cost me a feat for Insightful Reflex.

Edit
or I'm crazy.

Please tell me you Edited that to add INT, CHA and WIS

I actually already have had coffee so I dont even have that excuse.

:-)

[FranOhmsford]

For which class?

You list Rogue skills on pros/cons but don't list INT as even a consideration.

I've been having fun these days on a couple of INT builds and am enjoying having max everything (practically) in the skills department.

Maybe not the best DPS option, but I like "tool-box" rogues that can sneak, bluff/diplo/intimi anything, open rune locks, trap, umd, with balance, some heal for cocoons, etc etc.

The Harper tree makes INT seem a reasonable choice for me. You can even have Tactics beyond Assassinate now if you want. All I feel I am missing is the fact that there is no "Mind Rage" type temp buffs that increase INT like their are for STR or CON. That and it cost me a feat for Insightful Reflex.

Because he's talking about the MAIN stat only!

In the OP he listed Str, Dex and Con then at the bottom stated that he'd come to Int, Wis and Cha in a later post!

There's no reason to talk about the viabilities of Int in the bit about Dex because he's talking about the reasons to have Dex as your MAIN stat!


Frankly Dex is a terrible Main Stat for min/maxers even for those with Dex to Dmg because Str can be got so much higher BUT the OP is listing its Pros and Cons AS the Main Stat!

Hopefully the OP won't be put off by the way this thread has gone and will deliver his post about Int, Wis and Cha soon.

[phillymiket]

Because he's talking about the MAIN stat only!

In the OP he listed Str, Dex and Con then at the bottom stated that he'd come to Int, Wis and Cha in a later post!

There's no reason to talk about the viabilities of Int in the bit about Dex because he's talking about the reasons to have Dex as your MAIN stat!


Frankly Dex is a terrible Main Stat for min/maxers even for those with Dex to Dmg because Str can be got so much higher BUT the OP is listing its Pros and Cons AS the Main Stat!

Yeah I was talking about INT as MAIN stat, and I see it was added.



Hopefully the OP won't be put off by the way this thread has gone and will deliver his post about Int, Wis and Cha soon.

Wow. I didn't reasize I was being off-putting.
Sorry.
Just pointing out that I'm enjoying INT as a main.
:-)

[FranOhmsford]

Wrong, he listed the pro from a stance. He did not list +HP as a pro under CON. Having extra HP just from CON is different than saying it benefits a stance


Please just stop.

He didn't list HP as a Pro because there is no need to max it out even on your beloved Dwarf Tank - 56 Con or 58 Con makes so little difference it really doesn't matter. 72 vs 74 even less!
Yes the difference between 30 Con on that chararacter and 70 is Massive but we're not talking about Int or Wis here where EVERY point matters!

The OP is talking about Pros as a MAIN stat NOT as a Secondary or Tertiary stat!

[FranOhmsford]

Yeah I was talking about INT as MAIN stat, and I see it was added.

Oh...I see he added Int, Wis and Cha to the existing OP rather than in a second post - There was a last line previously stating that they would be added later which is what I was talking about.


Wow. I didn't reasize I was being off-putting.
Sorry.


I apologise too as that wasn't really aimed at you.

[FranOhmsford]

Okay so here we go again (and please YOU STOP) IF you have CON as a MAIN stat, having extra HP is a PRO! regardless of your defensive stance. Surely you don't disagree with that?
Wow. Just wow.

Lol.

This is getting ridiculous - an extra 28hp on a 2k+ hp toon Really matters to you I see.

Con is the Main Stat for one {two if you count both Pally and Fighter tanks} very niche build and the OP has recognised that in this thread - Why are you taking it so hard?



And no I don't disagree that an extra 28hp is a plus for ALL characters BUT this thread is specifically about the MAIN stat viability!
And a Dwarf Con Tank who's not in Stalwart Stance is a contradiction in terms!

To a DC Wizard or a Rogue Mechanic or a Radiant Servant or any of a number of builds 14 base Con is always better than 12, 16 base is sometimes better than 14 IF you can afford it!
BUT there's no reason to MAX it!!!
And it's certainly not ever going to be their Main Stat!

[Fedora1]

All right Fran, have fun.

Sorry OP, was trying to help but it's not worth it. Deleted my posts.

[Yamani]

Might I add that constitution is now used for a ravager enhancement for pure barbarian, Visage of Terror. Which is a will save(10+ constitution modifier + Half Barb level)

[Ancient]

Please just stop.

He didn't list HP as a Pro because there is no need to max it out even on your beloved Dwarf Tank - 56 Con or 58 Con makes so little difference it really doesn't matter. 72 vs 74 even less!
Yes the difference between 30 Con on that chararacter and 70 is Massive but we're not talking about Int or Wis here where EVERY point matters!

The OP is talking about Pros as a MAIN stat NOT as a Secondary or Tertiary stat!

The OP lists benefits for other stats just as minor or more so than HP from con. Being rude to the other poster doesn't change that fact. I have seen max con builds that were not stalwart builds, just because you wouldn't do it doesn't make it an invalid choice.

Wis is a dump stat on many of my characters, I fail to see how every point matters.

[Ancient]

All right Fran, have fun.

Sorry OP, was trying to help but it's not worth it. Deleted my posts.

You had a valid point which I agree with.

[Fedora1]

You had a valid point which I agree with.

Thanks. As far as I could tell he was listing the pros/cons of primary stats, I didn't see anywhere the OP stated primary stat MAXED either, just the benefits of having a particular stat as primary. If Fran thinks a 20 STR is plenty to keep him from getting drained down to an 8 STR in some quests and becoming encumbered, then hooray for him.

[Ancient]

Might I add that constitution is now used for a ravager enhancement for pure barbarian, Visage of Terror. Which is a will save(10+ constitution modifier + Half Barb level)

Spell resistance too. There was a pure barb EE wgu solo (prior to u24 barb buff) that was con based.

[JOTMON]

Its a lot of information to try and cover in one thread post.
There are soo many opportunities for each build type and possible variations.

Every Stat is useful as it has a cascade of unique things it impacts.
Some are more useful than others depending on the build and how it is developed.. many will Min/Max stats and use feats to compensate .. like insightful reflex and Force of personality
Most classes eventually come to the realization of how powerful UMD is and invest into CHA.

Trying to isolate builds from stats is a futile effort.
Some builds like your traditional raging Max STR barbarian may be considered an easy choice.. but I have seen some with Int for know the angles, and Dwarven Con builds...
There are variation builds from multi-classes like Cleric/Rogue.. a terrible synergy.. but it works.
A stunning fist build with Cleric/Monk is another effective build.

The wiki has a lot of information on all of the stats.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Abilities

Another consideration for Strength..
http://ddowiki.com/page/Encumbrance

I think you are trying to capture too many variables and pigeon-hole them into making sense.. like catching water with your hands.. too much information here, but good luck.

[FranOhmsford]

Thanks. As far as I could tell he was listing the pros/cons of primary stats, I didn't see anywhere the OP stated primary stat MAXED either, just the benefits of having a particular stat as primary. If Fran thinks a 20 STR is plenty to keep him from getting drained down to an 8 STR in some quests and becoming encumbered, then hooray for him.

Primary = Maxed {or as maxed as you can get it} in DDO - How is this even up for debate?

And as for Ray of Enfeeblement {Yes it's a horrid spell when mobs spam it} and stat drain {Is there a stat that can't get stat drained?} 20 str is usually enough unless you're a monk {uncentering is annoying as Hell!} or you've got your bags rammed full of Shields and Full Plates!.
Even so...
There's a vast difference between 14 base str and a +6 item AND 20 base Str + every boost available!
Add a +2 tome and Shipbuffs and we're talking 24 str at Lvl 11 without even trying - If you're still worried about getting Ray of Enfeebled then you're carrying too much!


Yes there's always the Flavour Builds out there but attacking the OP based on Flavour Builds when he's clearly talking about general viability is just as wrong as attacking a player who builds for Flavour for not being min/maxed!


And yes the OP did recognise the Dwarf Tank - He specifically stated that that was the one use of Con as Main Stat {And just because he missed a Barb Enhancement isn't reason to attack him either - That's brand new and we don't even know if Con needs to be maxed to make it useful anyway!}.


And I also believe that the days of Max Con WF Casters has gone by the wayside!

[Yamani]

And yes the OP did recognise the Dwarf Tank - He specifically stated that that was the one use of Con as Main Stat {And just because he missed a Barb Enhancement isn't reason to attack him either - That's brand new and we don't even know if Con needs to be maxed to make it useful anyway!}.

I wasn't attacking him over that one enhancement I was just informing him that there is some new DC's that are con based.

[giftie]

Dexterity

[...]

Conclusion:
Dex based builds only make sense when centered on a few enhancement trees which allow dex to damage. Shuriken builds, Elven AA, and acrobat builds come to mind, Ninja Short sword builds are at least possible. Except for Shuriken, Dex isnt optimal for most builds since dex cant benefit from divine might or know the angles.

Why can't DEX (or any other attribute, for that matter) benefit from KtA? Unlike DM, KtA is a insight bonus to damage and DCs, not an attribute increase.

[Inoukchuk]

I wanted to have a look at the usefulness of main stats, and which build options they have.

Strength

Weapon Damage:
basically all melee weapons, bows with bow strength feat

DCs
Tactical DCs: Stun, Trip, Sunder, some LD abilities

Saves
-

Skills
Jump, Swim - not that useful

Conclusion:
Str doesnt have much to offer except very flexible weapon damage which is easily boosted by divine might or rage effects.

Dexterity

Weapon Damage:

Class enhancements: Ninja Spy, Staff Acrobat (limited to certain weapons)
Racial enhancements: Elf (limited to certain weapons)
Named Weapons: several, for example tiefling assassins blade, Staff of Nat Gann

DCs
very few (sweeping strikes from acrobat)

Saves
Reflex

Skills:
Open Lock, Sneak, Move Silently, Balance, Tumble

Conclusion:
Dex based builds only make sense when centered on a few enhancement trees which allow dex to damage. Shuriken builds, Elven AA, and acrobat builds come to mind, Ninja Short sword builds are at least possible. Except for Shuriken, Dex isnt optimal for most builds since dex cant benefit from divine might or know the angles.

Constitution

Weapon Damage:
Only racial enhancement: throw your weight around

DCs:
almost none (Sorc enhancements, vanguard)

Saves: Fortitude

Skills: Concentration

Conclusion: Only useful for specific dwarf fighter or pally builds, for example dwarven defender parody. These benefit from +6 con +20% HP defensive stances a lot.

To be continued (Cha, Int, Wis)

Intelligence

Weapon Damage:
Enhancements: Harper for all weapons, Rogue Mechanic for Crossbows
Spells: Artificer insightful damage (all Weapons)
Named Weapons: (Midnight greetings, Staff of the Seer)

DCs: Wizard and arti Spells, Assassinate, many destiny abilities (mainly draconic, magister, shadowdancer)

Saves: Reflex (with insightful reflexes feat)

Skills: more skillpoints, search, disable device

Conclusion: Int is the main stat for wizards and artificers, and with the harper tree it offers excellent weapon damage, too. Int-based builds are very versatile nowadays, with the option to combine spell great DCs and good weapon damage (and trap skills) in one build.

Charisma

Weapon Damage:
Purple Dragon Knight (limited to swords)
Named Weapons (Elyd Edge, Mad Lute)

DCs: Sorceror and Bard Spells, Bard Abilities, Draconic DCs, EA Soundburst

Saves: Will (with FoP feat), all saves (with Paladin divine grace)

Skills: UMD, Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate

Conclusion: Charisma based builds are very versatile, with UMD, great saves (if Pally), great STR-based damage from divine might, and either bard or paladin abilities. The only problem are alignment restrictions.

Wisdom

Weapon Damage:
Few named weapons (staff of the seer, forgotten Light)
Druid Spell: Flame Blade

DCs: Druid, Cleric, FVS spells, Monk abilities (stunning fist), GMoF and Exalted Angel Destiny abilities

Saves: Will

Skills: Spot, Listen, Heal

Conclusion: Wis-based builds offer good DC casting/DC abilities, but weapon damage is extremely limited, as are saves.

It might've been mentioned somewhere and I missed it, but since I haven't really seen it discussed yet in this thread I'll add it here:

A huge advantage to STR as main stat is that you can get it stupid high, much higher than most other stats, due to the number of ways you can buff it. STR can benefit from power surge, divine might, barb rage, rage, primal scream, defender stance, nether grasps, action surge, etc. Properly leveraged it can be 20 or 30 pts higher than a max DEX build, max CHA build, etc.

[Saekee]

Its a lot of information to try and cover in one thread post.
There are soo many opportunities for each build type and possible variations.

Every Stat is useful as it has a cascade of unique things it impacts.
Some are more useful than others depending on the build and how it is developed.. many will Min/Max stats and use feats to compensate .. like insightful reflex and Force of personality
Most classes eventually come to the realization of how powerful UMD is and invest into CHA.

Trying to isolate builds from stats is a futile effort.
Some builds like your traditional raging Max STR barbarian may be considered an easy choice.. but I have seen some with Int for know the angles, and Dwarven Con builds...
There are variation builds from multi-classes like Cleric/Rogue.. a terrible synergy.. but it works.
A stunning fist build with Cleric/Monk is another effective build.

The wiki has a lot of information on all of the stats.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Abilities

Another consideration for Strength..
http://ddowiki.com/page/Encumbrance

I think you are trying to capture too many variables and pigeon-hole them into making sense.. like catching water with your hands.. too much information here, but good luck.

I agree with Jotman

Anyway, if the OP doea wish to isolate stats, consider also which ones benefit from Monk stances an Tenser's Transformation.

Dex builds work also for stealth play--nice synergy with the classes that offer Dex to hit and damage.

My dex build is sitting on 48 Dex at level 19 self- buffed with only +3 tome and no Yugo pot, exceptional or insightful bonus (like from Treads). Optimal? No--viable? Quite.

[Ancient]

I wasn't attacking him over that one enhancement I was just informing him that there is some new DC's that are con based.

Making suggestions to improve the collection of information in the original post of this thread is helping the OP, not attacking them. When I post a build thread, I try to thank everyone that responds, even those that trash the build. Because getting discussion on how to improve the build, or an honest assessment regarding the weaknesses of the build is a far far better fate than having the thread head into the graveyard of being completely ignored. It takes a very unique and special viewpoint to twist the suggestions offered into an "attack".

[Tobril]

Throw your weight around CON based dwarves are funny and probably work.


INT based whatever with the harper tree definitely works.


The game is in a rather interesting state for build diversity right now.

[Inoukchuk]

Throw your weight around CON based dwarves are funny and probably work.


INT based whatever with the harper tree definitely works.


The game is in a rather interesting state for build diversity right now.

Agreed. Despite a lot of complaining that the new stuff is OP, it seems to have really expanded build diversity, which everyone wants.

[Enoach]

Something to note in regards to Vanguard Tree is its Stunning Shield DC is based on the Highest Ability Modifier of Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma. This gives a lot of flexibility to any Build that can use this tree. However, it still requires a minimum of 2 Fighter or 2 Paladin levels and 6 to 8 AP

But regardless the main stat is driven more by the build then many of the stats factors themselves. A main stat is what usually gets the most attention in a build because it has the greatest return on the investment. Example would be an Intelligence main stat based Pure Monk. While it can take advantages of the intelligence based benefits it does so at a sacrifice of its own innate Wisdom and/or Dexterity based abilities.

Also to note is that the opportunity cost of a main stat being at MAX possible vs spreading the wealth around to other attributes will also very based on builds and their class(es) synergies with those Attributes. So the best that can be done is list skills and abilities that benefit from each attribute, and even some of those is class specific (Paladin Charisma MOD Saves, Monk Wisdom AC) or even Feat Dependent (Insightful Reflexes, Bow Strength)

As noted Strength currently has the most ways to buff that stack with each other than any other Attribute. It is also the primary stat needed for most Melee Tactical DCs and as such is usually the main attribute of Melee Tactic builds.

[Makkuroi]

Thanks for all the replies, Ill edit the main thread a bit (again) to make it more readable and include or clarify some of the mentioned suggestions. Ill also add an introduction. Feel free to comment further.

edit: Also, I possess the "thick skinned" ability, so Id never consider any critique as a personal attack.

edit2: Id really love the addition of a wisdom to damage option, right now we only have flame blade and very few (and, to be honest, bad) weapon options.

[mna]

Throw your weight around CON based dwarves are funny and probably work.


INT based whatever with the harper tree definitely works.


The game is in a rather interesting state for build diversity right now.

Oh yes, Vanguard Stunning Shield DC says "highest ability modifier", which is sort of fun.

So... my Dex-based swashbuckler with a couple of fighter levels took that, the buckler ended up being Dex for damage and stun DC but Str to hit. Crafted a +Stunning buckler to go with it, heh. Not sure yet if it'll be much good anyway... could be a nice extra for a bard, anyway.



Have to make a PDK one at some point just for fun, what with the extra Cha-for-tactics they could get. Too bad about needing a "+" heart to take rogue at level 1 as a PDK... oh well, just means it'll have to wait until I get ready to TR one of those that (still) have the +20s. Cha-based would also be better for the other bard stuff, anyway.

[phillymiket]

edit2: Id really love the addition of a wisdom to damage option, right now we only have flame blade and very few (and, to be honest, bad) weapon options.

Man that would be nice but might make Monk the new "it" class. I would be powerful. Msybe too powerful. FVS too could maybe see some hybrid Melee/DC caster "I do everything" builds.

"Flame Blade" meh.

I was excited when I picked that feat until I found out that just because you can summon a blade from pure personal energy it doesn't mean you are proficient to use it. ;-)

Luckily there is Fred.

[Firewall]

In the Dexterity section under 'Racial Enhancements' you miss Halfling (Skillful Thrower).

[Ayseifn]

Why can't DEX (or any other attribute, for that matter) benefit from KtA? Unlike DM, KtA is a insight bonus to damage and DCs, not an attribute increase.

There are also a lot more buffs for Dex than Int, so you're usually better off going for Dex as primary and Int secondary if you want the most damage out of Int/Dex. Only place where Int primary might make sense is for TWFers because KtAs is full damage on the off hand.

[Makkuroi]

There are also a lot more buffs for Dex than Int, so you're usually better off going for Dex as primary and Int secondary if you want the most damage out of Int/Dex. Only place where Int primary might make sense is for TWFers because KtAs is full damage on the off hand.

Int primary makes sense when youre playing a hybrid build which also uses int for DCs. Arti, Melee wiz, Assassin, or using int-based destinies like shadowdancer and draconic incarnation. Also any build which cant get dex to damage somehow.