Vanguard Battle Preist. 15CLR/???

[Thayion516]

Hi guys! As I pretty much suck at Divine building, I thought I would come here and ask the Pros.

I Am working on a Battlepriest that wants to use Shields in the Vanguard tree. Something close to a Radiant Titan build but not with a 2 hander. Altho Cleaving with DAxes or BSwords is something I am interested in. Looking for a primary melee DPS with shields that is backed up with a good aura for myself and group. I would just really like to put all these nice shields i have just laying around to some use.

Options are Dwarf (Throw Your Weight Around build) or Human (HAmp and Stat boosts). Dwarf gives me DAxes, But really I could take that on Human also as the Bonus Feat.

Whats the right mix of the classes?

15 Cleric? I don't really intend to do DC checks. Just Auras, Self/AE heals and Buffs. Altho a BB every now and then is definitely useful.

I really like how the Vanguard tree opens up options for sheilds. DDO has never really had a good shield tree and it looks fun to play with.

So what now? 4 Pally and 1 fighter? With the Charisma on a cleric I figure the pally saves would be nice. Or maybe just 6 fighter? for some Kensi work on the side?

Or am i just looking at it the wrong way? Should I go with like 12 Fighter/8 Cleric?

OR just go Vanguard Pally? 18/2 with fighter?

Hell, Im just all confused!

Any Suggestions?

[Skavenaps]

my toon (whos a completionist) is a 15pal/4fvs/1fight

He have accest to the main paladin spells (zeal,hs), Ameliorating strike from wp (heals me for bit less than 400 hp). The fight lvl is for tower shield + extra feat.

Hes a beast. Can solo any no raid EE.

[unbongwah]

The downside to Vanguard is the atk speed bonuses are in the lvl 6/12/18 cores; while the +5% doublestrike bonus is in the capstone. So if you only have <=6 levels of pal or ftr, your S&B DPS takes a significant hit. And with pure pallies being so strong both offensively and defensively now - their only real downside is feat shortage - it's tough to see what the S&B battlepriest brings to the table: you don't have the DPS of a pure pally nor the healing of a pure cleric. Still, it is doable if you really want to go that route.

Another possibility is cleric 13 / bard 4 / ftr 3 (or bard 3 / ftr 4 - all depends on which T4s you want): SWF Swashie w/heavy investment in Radiant Servant; e.g., 32 APs in RS, 21 APs into Swash, 13 APs into SD, remaining APs spread as you see fit. The downside is you're limited to lt armor & bucklers, which hurts your PRR & MRR; and you lose Div Grace. The upside is Swashie DPS bonuses are a lot more front-loaded than Vanguard; and you can still work in some Vanguard bonuses if you have the APs to spare.

[Thayion516]

The downside to Vanguard is the atk speed bonuses are in the lvl 6/12/18 cores; while the +5% doublestrike bonus is in the capstone. So if you only have <=6 levels of pal or ftr, your S&B DPS takes a significant hit. And with pure pallies being so strong both offensively and defensively now - their only real downside is feat shortage - it's tough to see what the S&B battlepriest brings to the table: you don't have the DPS of a pure pally nor the healing of a pure cleric. Still, it is doable if you really want to go that route.

Another possibility is cleric 13 / bard 4 / ftr 3 (or bard 3 / ftr 4 - all depends on which T4s you want): SWF Swashie w/heavy investment in Radiant Servant; e.g., 32 APs in RS, 21 APs into Swash, 13 APs into SD, remaining APs spread as you see fit. The downside is you're limited to lt armor & bucklers, which hurts your PRR & MRR; and you lose Div Grace. The upside is Swashie DPS bonuses are a lot more front-loaded than Vanguard; and you can still work in some Vanguard bonuses if you have the APs to spare.

AHhhh .. yup. what I was afraid you would say. so Pally>this idea. Or more accurately, Pally = this idea. 18/2 pally it is then.

[firemedium_jt]

AHhhh .. yup. what I was afraid you would say. so Pally>this idea. Or more accurately, Pally = this idea. 18/2 pally it is then.

What does 18/2 mean?
CLR18/PAL2?
Or PAL18?

CLR17 is better than CLR18. CLR17/PAL2/FTR1 is a powerful splash with FTR Haste and nice saves, but I am thinking you want S&B PAL18.

[axel15810]

The downside to Vanguard is the atk speed bonuses are in the lvl 6/12/18 cores; while the +5% doublestrike bonus is in the capstone. So if you only have <=6 levels of pal or ftr, your S&B DPS takes a significant hit.

Yup I think this is a great point. You could build a sword and board battle cleric but the DPS is going to be garbage compared to a THF, TWF or SWF variant because you need a lot of melee levels to qualify for vanguard's strong cores. Sword and board DPS is built into enhancements whereas much of the DPS in the other weapon fighting styles is tied to the 3 feats for that weapon type.

Would you consider SWF with an orb instead? You could build an excellent battle cleric on that premise.

If not, I think pure bladeforged paladin is going to be your best bet. You can still be a spot healer with lay on hands, cure spells, heal scrolls and reconstruct SLA if you enjoy helping others and watching redbars.

[LuKaSu]

Hi guys! As I pretty much suck at Divine building, I thought I would come here and ask the Pros.

I Am working on a Battlepriest that wants to use Shields in the Vanguard tree. Something close to a Radiant Titan build but not with a 2 hander. Altho Cleaving with DAxes or BSwords is something I am interested in. Looking for a primary melee DPS with shields that is backed up with a good aura for myself and group. I would just really like to put all these nice shields i have just laying around to some use.

Options are Dwarf (Throw Your Weight Around build) or Human (HAmp and Stat boosts). Dwarf gives me DAxes, But really I could take that on Human also as the Bonus Feat.

Whats the right mix of the classes?

15 Cleric? I don't really intend to do DC checks. Just Auras, Self/AE heals and Buffs. Altho a BB every now and then is definitely useful.

I really like how the Vanguard tree opens up options for sheilds. DDO has never really had a good shield tree and it looks fun to play with.

So what now? 4 Pally and 1 fighter? With the Charisma on a cleric I figure the pally saves would be nice. Or maybe just 6 fighter? for some Kensi work on the side?

Or am i just looking at it the wrong way? Should I go with like 12 Fighter/8 Cleric?

OR just go Vanguard Pally? 18/2 with fighter?

Hell, Im just all confused!

Any Suggestions?

Well, if you're really just wanting to massively increase the survivability of your cleric, you could go with 17 Cleric / 3 Paladin, so you could pick up the nice hitpoint, PRR/MRR, and saves bonuses that come with the defensive stance with Paladin level 3. It's not really going to make you much more of a melee DPSer than a standard Cleric with 1 Fighter level for melee proficiencies, but it will do great things for your survivability.

[Thayion516]

What does 18/2 mean?
CLR18/PAL2?
Or PAL18?

CLR17 is better than CLR18. CLR17/PAL2/FTR1 is a powerful splash with FTR Haste and nice saves, but I am thinking you want S&B PAL18.

18pally/2fighter

[Enoach]

Things to consider for this type of build

You mention using the Aura for healing - Tier 5 Radiant Servant minimum 5 Cleric levels and 32 AP spent in the tree. However it heals Base 1 HP/ 3 Cleric levels so would need augmented

You mention wanting to utilize the Vanguard Tree this will require Fighter or Paladin Levels. The question you need to answer is what abilities in the Vanguard Tree do you want to incorporate into your build

Personally I go with the War Priest Tree for a Melee Cleric with Ameliorating Strike as the smite abilities of this tree give a little extra damage and healing. It is easy to get in the habit of using this strike when it is off timer (15 seconds)

You also mentioned possibly using Kensei from fighter. I find this tree works best if monk levels are present and if you can invest a lot here.

The 15/4/1 Cleric/Paladin/Ftr Does offer some features but you may want to consider a 15/5 Paladin/Cleric (Vanguard / War Priest) with healing amp and empower healing you can get cure's to be good healing but you will also have access to Zeal and Holy Sword to enhance your damage as well as Ameliorating Strike.

[Wipey]

Just make a pally. I never got the point of melee divines, even less so now with pally being so good.
What does cleric offer ? Casting ? Nope. Turning, nope. Buffs, lol what, Mass DW and that's it.
Heal spell is good but nothing that Csw, Cocoon or LoHs wouldn't replace.

Vanguard has much lower heal amp than kotc tho ( kotc heals for 800 Csw and 500+ Consecration at cap ), unless you don't go for Defender stance for Vanguard.

[axel15810]

Just make a pally. I never got the point of melee divines, even less so now with pally being so good.
What does cleric offer ? Casting ? Nope. Turning, nope. Buffs, lol what, Mass DW and that's it.
Heal spell is good but nothing that Csw, Cocoon or LoHs wouldn't replace.

Vanguard has much lower heal amp than kotc tho ( kotc heals for 800 Csw and 500+ Consecration at cap ), unless you don't go for Defender stance for Vanguard.

The exchange you generally make with a battle cleric compared to a pally is you give up some melee DPS for party healing/better buffs/better self-sufficiency. And kiting ability with blade barrier.

[firemedium_jt]

Just make a pally. I never got the point of melee divines, even less so now with pally being so good.
What does cleric offer ? Casting ? Nope. Turning, nope. Buffs, lol what, Mass DW and that's it.
Heal spell is good but nothing that Csw, Cocoon or LoHs wouldn't replace.

Vanguard has much lower heal amp than kotc tho ( kotc heals for 800 Csw and 500+ Consecration at cap ), unless you don't go for Defender stance for Vanguard.

Aura!!!

It is one of the best party 'buffs' in the game. Too slow to be outright healing with average healing amp I see, but some toons are close to 100 HP a tick!
Even 50+ is nice. More swinging with it and less pausing to heal yourself. Helps the party do that too.

But yeah... you have to want something more to the game than just swinging a weapon and self healing to be a Cleric. And with Savarath and Vale making a comeback in the near future who knows. Mass Heal might be needed again. Until then you can probably get away with CLR13 or even CLR11. Just for Mass DW. Just cast Deathward a few times I guess.

[axel15810]

Aura!!!

It is one of the best party 'buffs' in the game. Too slow to be outright healing with average healing amp I see, but some toons are close to 100 HP a tick!s.

Right now on my battle cleric mine ticks for around 130 when in divine crusader, around 260 on a crit. Pretty hilarious I've got to say. With high PRR, a little dodge, ghostly, plus blur/displacement I can just stand there a lot of the time in EE and LOL at enemies trying to kill me.

The recent heal amp buff was a nice boost for clerics, moreso than other classes I believe because of the effects it had on aura.

[Wipey]

Empower Heal-ed Csw hits pally for 850, Consecration ticks for 550 if you choose Crusader ( well why would you heh, I admit. Blitzing has never been this easy ).

Shield user that doesn't take advantage of Vanguard cores, bleh.
And big stuff like Zeal and Holy Sword. Freaking Holy Sword. Monkchers are Paladin archers now because of it lol.
Spending 30 points for aura in a tree that does almost nothing for a melee.

Still nope, cleric offers nothing for such melee character. Sorry.

[Zachski]

Let me know when Paladins can cast blade barrier, can heal all of the other melees just by smacking an enemy in the face, can heal the same group of melees with a regenerating mana-free ability, and can maintain a large enough spell points pool to actually use a larger variety of spells.

[axel15810]

Empower Heal-ed Csw hits pally for 850, Consecration ticks for 550 if you choose Crusader ( well why would you heh, I admit. Blitzing has never been this easy ).

Shield user that doesn't take advantage of Vanguard cores, bleh.
And big stuff like Zeal and Holy Sword. Freaking Holy Sword. Monkchers are Paladin archers now because of it lol.
Spending 30 points for aura in a tree that does almost nothing for a melee.

Still nope, cleric offers nothing for such melee character. Sorry.

Nothing?

I agree that in this day and age where everyone has good self-healing, pallies are all around a higher tier build because they have better melee DPS. However, battle clerics are much more versatile and they have better self-sufficiency. And lots of conveniences. And if they splash 3 pally for divine grace and defender stance, better survivability because they have many more and better self-healing options over pallies. Still lots of great reasons to roll them.

Some reasons to go battle cleric over a pure 20 pally -

- Superior kiting ability via blade barrier and symbol of death
- Heal spell
- Regenerating turns for endless party and self-healing via bursts
- Passive healing via Aura
- Ability to be a party/raid healer
- Divine punishment, still amazing boss DPS in heroics
- Awesome convenient buffs pallies don't get like FoM, TS and greater restoration
- Energy drain to take huge chunks of HP off mini bosses
- More spell points
- Poor man's teleport via word of recall if you aren't a UMD character
- More and better raise dead options - can get a party back up much quicker.
- SP based divine might
- +75% effectiveness to heal scrolls through enhancements


Those are just some of the reasons why I prefer battle clerics over pallies. I'm sure I could come up with more. They bring a lot to the table for a melee build.