champions sucks.

[minimomo]

as a level 25 i ran the last f2p quest from that new pack, just heroic elite for favor, right?

gathered 15 monsters, cleave, cleave... all dead. no sweat.

then one caster cast one spell and bam! i was dead. i was like... really? REALLY?

i will say this: awesome job ddo.

try a bit harder and you can kill this game. just a little bit harder.

i can't even imagine epic elite champions...

[minimomo]

i always considered invisibility runs as some kind of cheat and i killed things when i can. by when i "can", i mean when that doesn't waste my time so freaking much.

before champions, i went and aggroed 10, 15 mobs and cleaved them. if my hp gets too low and if hireling doesnt heal i retreat, drink potions/heal myself, continue cleaving. now, with champions, there are like 2 champions every 10 mobs, sometimes more but just 2 of them is enough to kill you. so i have to kill things 5 by 5 if i don't want to die or keep healing myself which i would hate.

i am playing this game since more than 5 years. i have repeated heroic content more than 15 times and i have seen n/h/e farm times so i run each ddo quest so freaking many times. do you know what kind of a torture this is? every quest basically takes %20-30 longer than they used to.

so... i guess time to get invisible and don't play the game, just run to the finish? was that your original intention? make me ignore the things you develop? go for completion? because belive me, i can kill those champions if i am not reckless but i just have no reason to.

one reason can be exp. give exp for champions and i will kill em.

chests with krappy loot? then you wont "see" me.

[Sehenry03]

You mean you can't just roll every mob in every quest now? Wow that's SO unfair!!!!

[EnziteBob]

Shouldn't just kill the casters first lol. Champions are great. They promote grouping which is something the game needs right now. Yes you can't run into every room face first and expect to live now. That always seemed like bad tactics anyways.

[Inoukchuk]

Shouldn't just kill the casters first lol. Champions are great. They promote grouping which is something the game needs right now. Yes you can't run into every room face first and expect to live now. That always seemed like bad tactics anyways.

This ^

Although I get what the previous poster said about having run all this stuff so often you just want to get through it to get back to 20. That said, it has always been a pet peeve of mine that this game required too little in the way of tactics. I remember the very first time I created an enchantment spec'd wizard my immense disappointment in finding that when I'd rush face first into a room and cast disco ball.... all the mobs were dead before my spell cast finished. Even with quicken sometimes. Having played an enchanter in EQ back in the day, where crowd control and group tactics were 100% required if you didn't want your entire group to have their brains splattered on the wall, this was a huge let down. Now, sad to say, I've gotten used to it. But I'm happy to have a little spontaneous challenge thrown back in. We'll see how I feel about it at higher levels (TR'd right when the champs were added and the GF and holidays have me too busy to play much, so I'm only level 8 now), but since the nerf I barely notice champs now, except to stun/trip them first. But if those are on timer... no biggie, I just cleave/GC and melee down the champ. If it's a really nasty buff combination, heal afterwards (though even then that's rarely needed).

[minimomo]

i run necro 1 flagging quests with my toon yesterday after i post.

me and a first lifer. we both had hirelings.

first lifer died about 6 or 7 times. he would die, i would go get his stone and drop at shrine and he dies again.

so yeah, groups are so much fun!

especially waiting for that lfm to fill. it is nearly orgasmic.

the first a few deaths he was mumbling things like "oh so laggy" and then "stupid hirelings" etc.

then he just stopped after his 5th death or something. when we done with flagging, he quickly said "i g2g, ty, tc."

sooo... yeah. 10 years old game all of a sudden a newbie killer.

i said before, i will say it again: why did you gave everyone so many freaking ship buffs if you were going to implement champions? why did you make it so easy and then why did you make it so hard? why everyone running with +40 to all resistances and 1000 other buffs STARTING FROM LEVEL 2 and then why champions bypass all the fortification and deals 1.5k damage in ee? (i assume thats a crit, if not... then... just lol.)

how it is fair that those triple completionists got there when it was very easy and a newbie have to suffer after 10 years.

why you can't ever make it reasonably challenging? and why do you have to screw things up, still waiting a fix for hirelings! when i order them stand ground they just should like before!

GAH!

[FranOhmsford]

Shouldn't just kill the casters first lol. Champions are great. They promote grouping which is something the game needs right now. Yes you can't run into every room face first and expect to live now. That always seemed like bad tactics anyways.

The new quests have massive mob spawns already - adding champions to the mix WILL cause problems for lesser players {You know...The ones who WEREN'T blasting through content!}.
It makes no difference whatsoever to the elite - Champions aren't THAT powerful!
BUT
It hurts the players who keep this game going - The ones who are still working towards gaining more power!

And you can tell those players to go run a lower difficulty till you're blue in the face but the rewards are so much higher on elite that that just doesn't make sense!
Especially when we're talking about quests that we're already getting tiny amounts of XP from {the OP was a Lvl 25 in a Lvl 18 quest so actually that means ZERO xp already!} - Running Normal or Hard at that point is literally pointless as the ONLY thing that player is after is the Favour!

I took Lieuk {Lvl 26/27 Pure Monk} through the new quests the other day to get him that bit closer to 5k Favour {he's now on 4,952!} and died twice ON HEROIC!
First time was in the Mask of Deception {Lvl 18 on HE} when coming out of the building after getting the mask I ran smack bang into about 20 mobs with multiple champions!
I got boxed in almost instantly!
No AoEs on a Pure Monk meant a quick death!
I bought a cake, ran back into the building and used the traps to whittle the mobs down {those traps actually work on the mobs for a change!}.
Second time was in Fashion Madness when I ran into a Render Champion that I couldn't take down quick enough and behind it was about 5 Eyes all doing silly amounts of Un-Evadeable Force Dmg!
This time I recalled as I was much nearer to my bind point and went back in.

I didn't even attempt Terminal Delirium on Heroic after reading the wiki and realising it is a group quest!
Luckily there was an EE run in progress so I joined that and got my favour {after a huge amount of deaths to multiple members of the party!}.
The Palace was just a long slog - But I'd hate to try running it at level!

[Ayseifn]

It makes no difference whatsoever to the elite - Champions aren't THAT powerful!
BUT
It hurts the players who keep this game going - The ones who are still working towards gaining more power!


That's my biggest gripe with them, I still run into tons of mobs and cleave away on EE. Sure a champ with true seeing will hurt a bit and make me heal but all that means is I have to watch my HP bar now, not really challenging. The ones with tons of HP just mean I need to stun and later trip them if I don't want them to hit me, also maybe kite a little if they're the super powered ones.

We need them to be just as strong against new players as vets, uber geared toons, PLed to the max toons and awesome players in general. Closing some of the gap between newer players and old should be the priority, there's a great base here to work from and a lot of it is equally tough for all but I think it needs more. Also needs more anti ranged tech IMO.

[minimomo]

i think champions especially sucks in heroic content.

heroic pastlives gives nearly nothing until you get all of them and that's still measly +2 to stats and skills... airship buffs gives x50 more than that.

heroic completionist is actually having one less feat in your builds.

so you should make heroic content easier, not harder.

monk life +1 dmg? run 200 quests, work two to three weeks (in my case) and get 1 dmg while these champions annoying the **** out of you?

epic pastlives, those are good. especially because they give you twist points.

%3 chance to double strike just from 1 epic pastlife? that's good.

in fact, getting epic pastlives easier too, you can join a von eh raid at level 20 or 28 so who cares if there are champions or not... people keep spamming eh lord of dust and other stuff, just join em and act like you are hitting things. get your exp get out. but you cant do that in heroics. you mostly have to solo in heroics.

[phillymiket]

i run necro 1 flagging quests with my toon yesterday after i post.

me and a first lifer. we both had hirelings.

first lifer died about 6 or 7 times. he would die, i would go get his stone and drop at shrine and he dies again.

so yeah, groups are so much fun!

especially waiting for that lfm to fill. it is nearly orgasmic.

the first a few deaths he was mumbling things like "oh so laggy" and then "stupid hirelings" etc.

then he just stopped after his 5th death or something. when we done with flagging, he quickly said "i g2g, ty, tc."

sooo... yeah. 10 years old game all of a sudden a newbie killer.

i said before, i will say it again: why did you gave everyone so many freaking ship buffs if you were going to implement champions? why did you make it so easy and then why did you make it so hard? why everyone running with +40 to all resistances and 1000 other buffs STARTING FROM LEVEL 2 and then why champions bypass all the fortification and deals 1.5k damage in ee? (i assume thats a crit, if not... then... just lol.)

how it is fair that those triple completionists got there when it was very easy and a newbie have to suffer after 10 years.

why you can't ever make it reasonably challenging? and why do you have to screw things up, still waiting a fix for hirelings! when i order them stand ground they just should like before!

GAH!

I'm in the Harbor right now on a TR.
I'm actually digging Champions myself.

The Champion Shaman Raises his hands telegraphing a Lightning Bolt and I go GAH! and jump away in terror!
Fear in the Harbor hasn't happened in a long while for me.

So that's good for me.

But, I keep taking hits that make me think, "Ouch, that would have killed a new person".
Or, "Jeez, if I didn't have this Masterfully Crafted Holy Heavy Repeating Crossbow of Bleed with the Guild Slot here at level two then this mob would take a year to bring down".

It's often embarrassing being a new person in a new game.
Especially so in a game with Vets who simply have it all and can do multiple times your DPS with little danger.
Now add mobs that one-shot you left and right - and not even bosses but trash!
Of course a new guy will get cowed by the end and slink away with tail between legs after getting PWNed so bad.

I like Champions but would rather have the game be something that is accommodating to start and then difficult later.
In other words, as much as I'm enjoying the Champion Shamen that actually threatens me i don't need it at the expense of a new persons fun.

Now a 'Champion Level" in the Harbor on top of Elite?
That would be great!
I'd play "Champion Level" just for the fun of it, even if it offered no extra rewards.

[JOTMON]

You mean you can't just roll every mob in every quest now? Wow that's SO unfair!!!!

He was level 25 in a level 18 Heroic running for favor.. he should be steam rolling every mob.
Becomes more than challenging for the at level party when a level 25 is getting one shotted.
..(seems unusual..some information on your level 25.. class/build/HP... how much you got hit for.. and such... was it a Fail on a PK or a disintegrate.. or ???..)

Generally the only issue I had with Elite content from 1-shotters is from mobs that have the bypass all fortification buff which allows them to ignore my 250% fortification and land a crit for 2k
I guess Clerics could re-spec in speed rezzing instead of healing for Elite content.

[Monkey-Boy]

Am I understanding this right . . . a level 25 got one-shotted in a level 18 quest?

How many HP was this toon out of curiosity?

[minimomo]

Am I understanding this right . . . a level 25 got one-shotted in a level 18 quest?

How many HP was this toon out of curiosity?

like 800. dex based rogue.

[Monkey-Boy]

like 800. dex based rogue.

Which is far more than anyone would have in heroics, thanks.

[psykopeta]

Which is far more than anyone would have in heroics, thanks.

there are infinite ways to die, with much higher hp with the information listed (as example, what was the current hp, what was the damage received, which spell was, etc)

just saying, just hit 20 yesterday and haven't seen that "omfg please nerf champions"

ofc i have died, due to champions, to non champions, to traps (have improved evasion btw)

depending the information listed, u get nothing, as example, died due to traps in reavers fate at lvl (im kinda favor grinder, so even in iconic lives i do all the quests i can, getting xp of course, prefer doing once and done than repeating any quest or saga)

champions... i died cause in bastion of power i met a "double i deal extra damage" champion, was only hitting for 100+50 or something (but had more hp than expected), i have 0 prr btw

and non champions... iirc got swarmed in vol temple


elite isn't meant for everybody, and having done 11398 times before doesn't mean deserving the privilege to succeed on elite, nor the lvl

i remember when they added some changes to ee, that was a difficulty impossible for most players, til we all got knowledge and gear, and maybe the right ED (hard to see nowadays someone leveling an ED) and took our time, and some nerfs to mobs, for being able to succeed on it

now with just complaining EE meant easy for everyone instead of epic elite

btw, one lvl 25 toon must be really well built, to be stronger than any lvl 18 party setup, at least a lvl 18 party which is supposed to be able to handle heroic elite

PS: im a str acrobat, or something like that (getting monk pl, sun elf pl, but also once i ETR i will switch to ninja with kamas or shortswords, for the sake of trying most if not all common builds) at 12 monk 7 rogue 1 clr

if a subpar and subgeared toon can handle it, well build and well geared toons should too

PS2: some dev said that new quests weren't a wise idea to test the champions-hate fever

[TrinityTurtle]

[QUOTE=minimomo;5494276]as a level 25 i ran the last f2p quest from that new pack, just heroic elite for favor, right?

gathered 15 monsters, cleave, cleave... all dead. no sweat.

then one caster cast one spell and bam! i was dead. i was like... really? REALLY?
[QUOTE]

What spell specifically was it? What protections did you have in place against that type of magic?

[Lonnbeimnech]

Try a lower difficulty setting.

[Zzevel]

how it is fair that those triple completionists got there when it was very easy and a newbie have to suffer after 10 years.

I am not a triple completionist, actually I do not have a single toon past their 3rd TR and play many first lifers and I love that champions have brought some challenge back into the game and also remind us that CON is not a dump stat. I would assume you do not know what the challenge ever was as you stated you were playing the last F2P.

You were not here when Level 16 was the cap, When Shroud's routinely failed... When people were EXCITED to have a Vorpal weapon. The game has powercrept us into getting a ribbon for participating. champions help to fix that issue. I am glad the money I pay to play goes toward keeping the game fresh and giving a little challenge now and then. If you do not like champions would like to suggest that they do have 2 levels of difficulty with no champions.

Back in the day when a party got wiped were figured out what we did wrong, regrouped and went in again. There SHOULD be a challenge and every quest on elite SHOULD NOT be automatic. Personally I thing they moved champions TOO far back on their fix and should ramp them up a bit... It's about time some challenge was re-introduced to DDO, but that's just MY opinion as a paying VIP subscriber.

[minimomo]

it doesn't matter what spell it was. it wasn't a new spell ddo just implemented. it wasn't a save or die spell either, it wasn't disintegration or anything....

i don't want to get lost in details. as a 5 years old player i always solo heroic elites and i never die and i do that at level.

let alone when level 25 and running 18 heroic elite.

if that happens to me, and i am an experienced player, what will it do to newbies? at level? with lower hp? which i already answered with my necro 1 flagging post above. they will keep dying then they will feel gimped.

imagine you are a new player, you have no packs, 28 points build and you just have nothing and you keep dying. would you go buy **** from ddostore as if you are going to continue playing this game very non newbie friendly?

people keep reporting combat texts like : golem hit you bludgeoning damage 1287. you died.

it is clearly too much. please don't reset this discussion to beginning every new person...

[minimomo]

I am not a triple completionist, actually I do not have a single toon past their 3rd TR and play many first lifers and I love that champions have brought some challenge back into the game and also remind us that CON is not a dump stat. I would assume you do not know what the challenge ever was as you stated you were playing the last F2P.

You were not here when Level 16 was the cap, When Shroud's routinely failed... When people were EXCITED to have a Vorpal weapon. The game has powercrept us into getting a ribbon for participating. champions help to fix that issue. I am glad the money I pay to play goes toward keeping the game fresh and giving a little challenge now and then. If you do not like champions would like to suggest that they do have 2 levels of difficulty with no champions.

Back in the day when a party got wiped were figured out what we did wrong, regrouped and went in again. There SHOULD be a challenge and every quest on elite SHOULD NOT be automatic. Personally I thing they moved champions TOO far back on their fix and should ramp them up a bit... It's about time some challenge was re-introduced to DDO, but that's just MY opinion as a paying VIP subscriber.

you weren't here 87987 million years ago when we were hunting dinasours and living in caves.

therefore let's get naked and live like monkeys and hump each other whenever we feel like.

all mmos start hard, gets easier in years. especially if there's a rebirth system of some sort. then it gets even more easier for those who kept playing.

they don't one day wake up and things start to one shot them again all of a ****ing sudden!

[Monkey-Boy]

. . . let's get naked and live like monkeys and hump each other whenever we feel like.

May I use this as a signature quote?

[minimomo]

May I use this as a signature quote?

sure hahah

[Flavilandile]

If you can't handle Elite, try Hard; if you can't handle Hard, try Normal.

There's 4 levels of difficulties in the quests, they are not meant to be 'Automatic Completion on Highest difficulty setting'.

This is an issue that appeared with MotU and the Epic Destinies and got compounded with Shadowfail.
It is getting fixed ( finally ). Even if I disagree with how it is being fixed ( crowned meatballs with inflated HPs), it is getting fixed, and that's good.

as I pointed in another thread : DDO used to be unforgiving, even in the starter area ( now Crystal Cove ) where you could die as a rogue from a blowing trap box in your intro quest.

While I do not want it back to that time ( It was really painful, and life expectancy of a permadeath character was numbered in hours ), I want it to be more difficult that what it is right now.

[Monkey-Boy]

If you can't handle Elite, try Hard; if you can't handle Hard, try Normal.

Did you even read his post? An 800 HP level 25 toon was running a LEVEL 18 HEROIC elite quest for favor and got one-shotted by a no-save spell.

Please tell me how this isn't broken.

[FlawSpitter]

Did you even read his post? An 800 HP level 25 toon was running a LEVEL 18 HEROIC elite quest for favor and got one-shotted by a no-save spell.

Please tell me how this isn't broken.

Bah! A level 27 rogue got one-shot by a level 15 sorc in the Lobster. Arrogant epic char forgot to cast Deathward. :rolleyes:

[Monkey-Boy]

Congratulations OP for voiding every argument you might have had with your childish behavior.

To be honest I just started an heroic PL, using for now (reached lvl 6 atm) basically korthos equip plus 2 items I kept from previous PLs. I'm not using a FOTM build, just doing a favored soul-monk drow build I made up in 5 minutes, because I realized I've never played a drow and needed a FavSoul PL. I noticed the champions are hitting harder, but I haven't seen the doom you and other people speak of. Just aggro 10 mobs instead of 20 (or whatever you were used to before). And if you still can't handle it, that's what the LFM panel was made for...

I didn't notice anything ridiculous over the weekend regarding Champions, though seeing some 600ish HP harbor mobs was kinda stupid.

BUT . . . here's where Champions are a dumb idea . . . is they are random. Random is bad in that though they won't necessarily break every encounter, they can potentially break ANY encounter.

Should a level 18 quest give a mob the potential to one-shot an 800 HP level 25 character? No, it shouldn't. Throw in a random "champion" - and we all know how well "random" worked on during Feather's reign as loot/systems czar - and now the encounter is broken.

Random just plain sucks for this reason.

Yes the game was is too easy.

Too much power creep from stuff like monk splashes and over powered paladins and bards made it this way.

Better solution is the nerf what was buffed too much. Or leave things be and give an across the board buff to all mobs in EE

Champions were the wrong way to fix this.

Random sucks. Random has too much potential to break stuff.

Random mucks up carefully crafted encounters.

Mobs more dangerous than bosses is dumb.

Bosses and orange names already were the champions.

Trash mobs one-shotting people is dumb.

Devs knowing the cause of the one-shotting and not coming out as telling the players this was a bug so we don't foam at the mouth at each other is disappointing.

Champion rats is dumb.

Champion boxes and rocks is dumber than champion rats.

leveling is a chore that many just want to get over with.

Challenge us with a real end game.

Challenge us when at cap.

Give us a reason to actually stay at cap other than we're bored of TRing.

Give us this Mythic difficulty you hint at, with a LOOT grind and not an XP grind.

Stop adding dynamics to this game to balance stuff in epics that breaks heroics.



This is the Monkey-Boy manifesto, you all should put it in your signatures.



And most of all . . . with the holidays upon us could some of you people try being a little bit nicer to people who simply disagree with you?

[Zibowskij]

I didn't notice anything ridiculous over the weekend regarding Champions, though seeing some 600ish HP harbor mobs was kinda stupid.

BUT . . . here's where Champions are a dumb idea . . . is they are random. Random is bad in that though they won't necessarily break every encounter, they can potentially break ANY encounter.

Should a level 18 quest give a mob the potential to one-shot an 800 HP level 25 character? No, it shouldn't. Throw in a random "champion" - and we all know how well "random" worked on during Feather's reign as loot/systems czar - and now the encounter is broken.

Random just plain sucks for this reason.

Yes the game was is too easy.

Too much power creep from stuff like monk splashes and over powered paladins and bards made it this way.

Better solution is the nerf what was buffed too much. Or leave things be and give an across the board buff to all mobs in EE

Champions were the wrong way to fix this.

Random sucks. Random has too much potential to break stuff.

Random mucks up carefully crafted encounters.

Mobs more dangerous than bosses is dumb.

Bosses and orange names already were the champions.

Trash mobs one-shotting people is dumb.

Devs knowing the cause of the one-shotting and not coming out as telling the players this was a bug so we don't foam at the mouth at each other is disappointing.

Champion rats is dumb.

Champion boxes and rocks is dumber than champion rats.

leveling is a chore that many just want to get over with.

Challenge us with a real end game.

Challenge us when at cap.

Give us a reason to actually stay at cap other than we're bored of TRing.

Give us this Mythic difficulty you hint at, with a LOOT grind and not an XP grind.

Stop adding dynamics to this game to balance stuff in epics that breaks heroics.



This is the Monkey-Boy manifesto, you all should put it in your signatures.



And most of all . . . with the holidays upon us could some of you people try being a little bit nicer to people who simply disagree with you?

Not sure why my post was deleted, but I'll reply to you. I don't mind randomness, it keeps you a little bit more "on your toes"... And I personally don't agree with the idea that a lower quest cannot pose a threat to a higher level character. I haven't tried the new quests yet, but I'll make sure to give it a shot soon.. and if they will be too though for me I'll seek help with an LFM.
One more helpful thing is tactics.. Using CC, stuns or just use the environment at your advantage can save you more than having thousands of HP.
But I agree with your (and many others) idea of a new difficulty. Something that might not even be worth for xp or loot, but simply fun, challenge and bragging rights...

[Monkey-Boy]

But I agree with your (and many others) idea of a new difficulty. Something that might not even be worth for xp or loot, but simply fun, challenge and bragging rights...

It has to be worth something, it should be loot. Too much of this game is the acquisition of XP as it is.

[porkchorp]

New player here,

Random is awesome
Champions are fun
Getting killed is not a big deal


Looking forward to randomly placed traps someday and random mobs :P

[Inoukchuk]

It has to be worth something, it should be loot. Too much of this game is the acquisition of XP as it is.

If you make it loot then it's counter-productive; it just adds more power creep through loot making the rest of the content even less challenging for the already elite. Find another reward.

[TrinityTurtle]

it doesn't matter what spell it was. it wasn't a new spell ddo just implemented. it wasn't a save or die spell either, it wasn't disintegration or anything....

It does matter. For all I know you're here complaining about something when you could have done something about. Further more, was there only one champion? A champion and a bunch of trash? A couple champions? "I got one shot and won't provide any details about what happened so that I can learn from the experience" does not engender a lot of empathy.


i don't want to get lost in details. as a 5 years old player i always solo heroic elites and i never die and i do that at level.

let alone when level 25 and running 18 heroic elite.

if that happens to me, and i am an experienced player, what will it do to newbies? at level? with lower hp? which i already answered with my necro 1 flagging post above. they will keep dying then they will feel gimped.

Ah, I see. You want the game to be so easy that you don't actually have a risk of dying. Dre and I got our rears kicked by champions. Hard. We sat down together, figured out what we did wrong, and kicked them back. And stopped dying at all levels. It just took a little effort on our part, and now we're back to steamrolling the mobs.





imagine you are a new player, you have no packs, 28 points build and you just have nothing and you keep dying. would you go buy **** from ddostore as if you are going to continue playing this game very non newbie friendly?

I Don't have to, I play in a static 28 point no gear semi-permadeath group on Wayfinder. And we're still stomping things. Because we pay attention to the dungeon, we watch for the crowns, and we formulate strategies to deal with the champions. And we have a great time doing it. And when I was actually new, I died all the time. And every time I did, I learned something new, that eventually led me to the point when I stopped dying.

New players won't know the difference. THey'll come and ask vets 'how do I get around this'. Already am seeing it in advice channels, my help channel, and general channels across the board.

[Chaimberland]

Random is awesome
Champions are fun
Getting killed is not a big deal




I think this statement really puts things into perspective. New players are fine with champions. It's just a few vets that are whining.

[Monkey-Boy]

If you make it loot then it's counter-productive; it just adds more power creep through loot making the rest of the content even less challenging for the already elite. Find another reward.

What else is there besides XP and loot?

Anyone saying "fun" is getting whacked in the head with a spade-shovel.

[Monkey-Boy]

I think this statement really puts things into perspective. New players are fine with champions. It's just a few vets that are whining.

ONE new player doesn't speak for all new players.

[Tscheuss]

ONE new player doesn't speak for all new players.

Changes don't affect newbies as changes. Everything is new to them, anyway. It is only (some) vets agonizing over changes. Champions are not game-breaking. They just make players stop and think before attacking (or they kill those who rush blindly into battle). :D

[Zibowskij]

What else is there besides XP and loot?

Anyone saying "fun" is getting whacked in the head with a spade-shovel.

Why do you NEED something in return? There are already other difficulty, so you could still play them. And as someone else said spiraling down with power creep isn't the solution. I think having a "nightmare" kind of difficulty that might even be a once-and-done kinda thing, just to have fun, might be a good idea. Not every difficulty/quest must be farmed (for xp or loot). It would probably be even more meaningful than having speed runs and time records for completion...

[Flavilandile]

Did you even read his post? An 800 HP level 25 toon was running a LEVEL 18 HEROIC elite quest for favor and got one-shotted by a no-save spell.

Please tell me how this isn't broken.

I don't see any issue with that.

Maybe it comes from the fact that I've been playing Rolemaster for over 30 years.
With a lucky open ended roll on a critical a LVL 1 Orc can kill a LVL 50 Character, no save, you're dead.

[Livmo]

New player here,

Random is awesome
Champions are fun
Getting killed is not a big deal


Looking forward to randomly placed traps someday and random mobs :P

I've learned where most the trap boxes and traps are in the game. This would be fun and spice things up a bit!

Random traps please and TY!

[AlcoArgo]

as a level 25 i ran the last f2p quest from that new pack, just heroic elite for favor, right?

gathered 15 monsters, cleave, cleave... all dead. no sweat.

then one caster cast one spell and bam! i was dead. i was like... really? REALLY?

i will say this: awesome job ddo.

try a bit harder and you can kill this game. just a little bit harder.

i can't even imagine epic elite champions...

I don't need to imagine EE champions, I have faced them and they are TOUGH... as they should be. If you solo WGU EE now you have EARNED it. It is great that Elite means something again - at least a little bit.

Quests are less boring and predictable now. This is a good thing. What is the fun and challenge in just gathering mobs and then cleaving when you have enough? Try using some tactics instead of whining that the game is too hard for you when playing Elite difficulty.

Learn. Adapt. Get better.

[AlcoArgo]

Did you even read his post? An 800 HP level 25 toon was running a LEVEL 18 HEROIC elite quest for favor and got one-shotted by a no-save spell.

Please tell me how this isn't broken.

Sometimes it is not the arrow but the archer who is at fault.

If you are lvl 25 and getting 1 shotted in a lvl 18 quest - even with an astounding 800 HP - then there is something wrong with you. Your build sucks or your playstyle sucks or you forgot to put DW on or something else I didn't mention. No PRR? No MRR? Get some and try again.

You may have even rolled a 1. Stuff happens. Deal with it or play on Normal difficulty until you get better.

[phillymiket]

New player here,

Random is awesome
Champions are fun
Getting killed is not a big deal

Looking forward to randomly placed traps someday and random mobs :P

Glad you like it!
I like them too.


I think this statement really puts things into perspective. New players are fine with champions. It's just a few vets that are whining.

It actually doesn't
"New Players" are a wide group.

Someone yesterday asked "have you actually played with new players anytime recently?" to which I had to answer "ahhh, no I haven't".
So i hopped on a Lowbie last night and PuGed the Harbor on Elite.
I let the other players dictate the pace and direction and didn't try to stomp the quests single-handed.
Me and these three guys had a great time in a few quests, getting blasted in Irestone - running in every direction willy-nilly, no plan or coordination, running stones back to shrines multiple times, etc.
Another time a guy got killed so much he eventually said "I'm just going to stand here next to the shrine. If i move I will die".

Some will like it. some won't care, some will leave.

The question is - are the new people who would have left the game because it's too easy w/o champions a greater number than the people who will leave because it's too frustrating.

My opinion is: the guy who likes Champions would have stuck around anyway and loved seeing them later.
The guy who would leave because of them might just deal with it later in the game, level 6 or 8 maybe, when he can better handle it.

But yes, my experience yesterday tells me some brand new players enjoy Champions just fine.

[Monkey-Boy]

I don't see any issue with that.

Maybe it comes from the fact that I've been playing Rolemaster for over 30 years.
With a lucky open ended roll on a critical a LVL 1 Orc can kill a LVL 50 Character, no save, you're dead.

Then go play Role Master. This can't and shouldn't happen in anything with "Dungeons and Dragons" in the title.

[Monkey-Boy]

Sometimes it is not the arrow but the archer who is at fault.

If you are lvl 25 and getting 1 shotted in a lvl 18 quest - even with an astounding 800 HP - then there is something wrong with you. Your build sucks or your playstyle sucks or you forgot to put DW on or something else I didn't mention. No PRR? No MRR? Get some and try again.

You may have even rolled a 1. Stuff happens. Deal with it or play on Normal difficulty until you get better.

Absolute nonsense.

[Monkey-Boy]

Why do you NEED something in return?

There are already other difficulty, so you could still play them.

And as someone else said spiraling down with power creep isn't the solution.

I think having a "nightmare" kind of difficulty that might even be a once-and-done kinda thing, just to have fun, might be a good idea.

Not every difficulty/quest must be farmed (for xp or loot). It would probably be even more meaningful than having speed runs and time records for completion...

- After you reach a certain point the only reason to play most stuff is to advance your character. That's done through PLs and loot. If it doesn't offer any reward NOBODY WILL CARE.

- I don't understand that point, I already only run EEs and even when the dumb champions were broken it was still easy. So what are you suggesting?

- Powercreep has all but destroyed this game, but if there's not reason to advance your characters there is no point in continuing to play.

- Making stuff just for one and done is a waste of developer hours. Nobody cares about speed records.

[AlcoArgo]

Absolute nonsense.

Why?

[Monkey-Boy]

Why?

Because it is, not worth debating I'll just add you to my ignore list.

[Zibowskij]

- After you reach a certain point the only reason to play most stuff is to advance your character. That's done through PLs and loot. If it doesn't offer any reward NOBODY WILL CARE.

- I don't understand that point, I already only run EEs and even when the dumb champions were broken it was still easy. So what are you suggesting?

- Powercreep has all but destroyed this game, but if there's not reason to advance your characters there is no point in continuing to play.

- Making stuff just for one and done is a waste of developer hours. Nobody cares about speed records.

I've been playing for 5 years now, 2 lives from triple completionist and half of the EPLs on my main. I still enjoy doing HoX, Vod and Tempest Spine from time to time. Maybe your perspective isn't the only valid one.

- I'm suggesting that a higher difficulty setting (one more, not changing one of those we have) might be a nice addition. I thought a person like you that is completing so easily EEs could be interested by it

- Powercreep has not destroyed, but damaged the game. The endless upgrade of tomes, items and so on brought us to a point where devs went back and forth with inflate mobs' hp/upgrade loot, over and over. And I think that it's more fun to have a challenging situation than a 10 mins autoattack mob. Regarding the continuing to play argument, adding another difficulty doesn't get in the way of getting loot or PLs. You can decide to farm items/xp or challenge yourself

-It wouldn't be making new quests, the raw material is already there. the fact that you wouldn't necessarily farm it doesn't make it a waste

[AlcoArgo]

Because it is, not worth debating I'll just add you to my ignore list.

Fair enough. Just a thought, as a courtesy to anyone you level with, please put "Must be at least 8 levels over quest level to join or we will fail" in your LFMs.

Probably best to have it in your bio as well.

[Cardoor]

Champions suck
/signed
agreed
get rid of them.

[Sehenry03]

Champions suck
/signed
agreed
get rid of them.

/ignored
disagree
Plz keep them AND go back to prenerf champions

[Cardoor]

/ignored
disagree
Plz keep them AND go back to prenerf champions

Ignore fail

[Sunnie]

What else is there besides XP and loot?

Anyone saying "fun" is getting whacked in the head with a spade-shovel.

Bragging rights.

Some purely cosmetic badge of honour so you can say "I was there and I pulled through". Be it a mabarian head spider, a spotted wolf pup, or a t-shirt saying "I killed 7000 rust monsters, and all I got was this lousy pet". An additional cosmetic reward for running a difficulty over and above elite is all that's needed really.

[Aliss7]

The problem with champions is that they can wildly imbalance a few certain quests and make them "unfair".

My most recent example is "Cannith Crystal", one of the very first quests you would do... one set of mobs generated two champions and one of them one-shotted the crystal. -.-

[Tscheuss]

The problem with champions is that they can wildly imbalance a few certain quests and make them "unfair".

My most recent example is "Cannith Crystal", one of the very first quests you would do... one set of mobs generated two champions and one of them one-shotted the crystal. -.-

Agro management lesson. :)

[harry-pancreas]

[QUOTE=minimomo;5500937

so... i guess time to get invisible and don't play the game, just run to the finish? was that your original intention? make me ignore the things you develop? go for completion? because belive me, i can kill those champions if i am not reckless but i just have no reason to.

[/QUOTE]

no, you just need to get good at the game

[Zasral]

no, you just need to get good at the game

Ddo has allways been based on a simple formula like every other mmo I've ever played. Preparation+skill=win
Champions add a luck factor. Then the luck factor is compounded by the number of champs. Rng loot is bad enough, and is the only acceptable luck factor in a mmo. Champions need to go! Because of work I haven't been able to play since before u23. I come back after u24, and my guy is more powerful, as well as more survivable. However EE content I was soloing before champs is now a **** shoot. One champ in a group of mobs np. Two if I'm bringing my A game ok. Five out of six, really turbine?

[count_spicoli]

. However EE content I was soloing before champs is now a **** shoot. One champ in a group of mobs np. Two if I'm bringing my A game ok. Five out of six, really turbine?

This shouldn't be. It should take a group of six bad mofos to complete epic elite. Not everybody and mama sleep walking it solo.

[Zasral]

This shouldn't be. It should take a group of six bad mofos to complete epic elite. Not everybody and mama sleep walking it solo.

So I built my guy, spent who knows how many hours grinding his lvl's, ed's, gear, clickies, past lives, and epic past lives. Played a quest over and over till I know it like the back of my hand, and I shouldn't be able to solo it?

[Faltout]

So I built my guy, spent who knows how many hours grinding his lvl's, ed's, gear, clickies, past lives, and epic past lives. Played a quest over and over till I know it like the back of my hand, and I shouldn't be able to solo it?
No. If you can, good for you. But if you can't, we're not going to lessen the difficulty so you can. No matter what your gear/experience is.

[Zasral]

No. If you can, good for you. But if you can't, we're not going to lessen the difficulty so you can. No matter what your gear/experience is.

My point isn't about the overall difficulty of the quest. It's that the difficulty shouldn't be based on chance.

[elg582]

I've held off commenting about Champions so I could think about it and see how it affected a couple of TR lives.

TL;DR Champions are nothing but (yet another) anti-zerging mechanism; they suck, get rid of them.




Look, Turbine, I get it: I've been a DM, I know what it's like to want your players to do things the way you expect them to; what I don't understand is why you seem to feel that way. A DM in a PnP game gets the thrill of suspense and gratification for having predicted what was going to happen, the feeling like they are always one step ahead, but you can't get that, so why this continual obsession over making sure that people run your quests the "right way?"

Yes, the complaints that start out, "I was mowing through an elite quest 3 levels above me, and I got killed!" are pretty silly, taken out of context; in context, these are 3rd+ life FotM builds in crazy overpowered gear that SHOULD be mowing through elite quests 3 levels above them. If they don't, what chance do 1st-life pure builds have? This essentially forces a split between new and veteran players, unless they (like me) are working through TR lives in classes that are currently at the bottom of the update totem pole.


Oh, and here's the most embarrassing part: Unless your intention was to make class balance even worse than it was after the Paladin/Bard supercharging, it hasn't worked.

I won't go into details, mostly because I have no desire to help you (Turbine) make this system more effective, but Champions are actually rather ridiculous; even in a stealth run, all they do is enforce a 2-second fight every 100 yards and waste SP on re-invis'ing. Again, unless you are playing a suboptimal build or class, like a melee monk or ranger.

And don't even get me started on the mysterious fragment rewards; you should have put exactly 1 additional inventory space in as an option, just to make the entire thing recursively pointless.

[Sehenry03]

I've held off commenting about Champions so I could think about it and see how it affected a couple of TR lives.

TL;DR Champions are nothing but (yet another) anti-zerging mechanism; they suck, get rid of them.




Look, Turbine, I get it: I've been a DM, I know what it's like to want your players to do things the way you expect them to; what I don't understand is why you seem to feel that way. A DM in a PnP game gets the thrill of suspense and gratification for having predicted what was going to happen, the feeling like they are always one step ahead, but you can't get that, so why this continual obsession over making sure that people run your quests the "right way?"

Yes, the complaints that start out, "I was mowing through an elite quest 3 levels above me, and I got killed!" are pretty silly, taken out of context; in context, these are 3rd+ life FotM builds in crazy overpowered gear that SHOULD be mowing through elite quests 3 levels above them. If they don't, what chance do 1st-life pure builds have? This essentially forces a split between new and veteran players, unless they (like me) are working through TR lives in classes that are currently at the bottom of the update totem pole.


Oh, and here's the most embarrassing part: Unless your intention was to make class balance even worse than it was after the Paladin/Bard supercharging, it hasn't worked.

I won't go into details, mostly because I have no desire to help you (Turbine) make this system more effective, but Champions are actually rather ridiculous; even in a stealth run, all they do is enforce a 2-second fight every 100 yards and waste SP on re-invis'ing. Again, unless you are playing a suboptimal build or class, like a melee monk or ranger.

And don't even get me started on the mysterious fragment rewards; you should have put exactly 1 additional inventory space in as an option, just to make the entire thing recursively pointless.

I play 4 different toons...all are 3rd+ lifers. I have no issues zerging most dungeons the same now as before. The difference is now I actually have to "think" about what mob I should kill first which is always a champion caster if there is one. Yes champs hit harder. yes they tend to bypass fort. And that all means zero to me. Took me less then a week to tweak my style a touch and now its not even really tweaked. In heroic elite levels my paladin still pulls half the dungeon even with red alert before he stops to kill everything with some cleaves. My druid still pulls half the dungeon before stopping to Earthquake/Icestorm.

I'm kinda lost on your point that it stops zerging.

Oh and I know a lot of rgoues that still sneak through almost every dungeon and only occasionally have to stop for champs. Which by the way they kill quick and easy because they can be assassinated in most cases or tripped in almost every case.

Any why does Turbine expect people to run the quest the way they want them ran? Oh I don't know maybe because it is their game and they have the final say.

Oh and there is a new player I have been helping...his name is Eyegougya on Sarlona. He could care less about champs and he runs on Elite with only decent gear I gave to him. Nothing even remotely powerful. We ran STK part 2 on Elite yesterday and I went afk for about 10 minutes. When I got back he had already cleared half the dungeon WITH champs and was moving along just fine. So YES a new player CAN deal with champs fine...they just need a little help on how. he didn't even know he could trip until I got him to put it on his hotbar.

[dunklezhan]

I play 4 different toons...all are 3rd+ lifers. I have no issues zerging most dungeons the same now as before. The difference is now I actually have to "think" about what mob I should kill first which is always a champion caster if there is one. Yes champs hit harder. yes they tend to bypass fort. And that all means zero to me. Took me less then a week to tweak my style a touch and now its not even really tweaked. In heroic elite levels my paladin still pulls half the dungeon even with red alert before he stops to kill everything with some cleaves. My druid still pulls half the dungeon before stopping to Earthquake/Icestorm.

I'm kinda lost on your point that it stops zerging.

Oh and I know a lot of rgoues that still sneak through almost every dungeon and only occasionally have to stop for champs. Which by the way they kill quick and easy because they can be assassinated in most cases or tripped in almost every case.

Any why does Turbine expect people to run the quest the way they want them ran? Oh I don't know maybe because it is their game and they have the final say.

Oh and there is a new player I have been helping...his name is Eyegougya on Sarlona. He could care less about champs and he runs on Elite with only decent gear I gave to him. Nothing even remotely powerful. We ran STK part 2 on Elite yesterday and I went afk for about 10 minutes. When I got back he had already cleared half the dungeon WITH champs and was moving along just fine. So YES a new player CAN deal with champs fine...they just need a little help on how. he didn't even know he could trip until I got him to put it on his hotbar.

Do note that trip and other tactical feats are currently bugged and more effective than they should be in general. But once that's fixed, assuming you have built and geared for it then yes, Trip should still work on champs of a type that should be vulnerable to it, just like stun, dance, charm all still work if the underlying mob is susceptible.

Charming champs is my favorite strategy. They're SUCH effective aggro magnets :)

[Sehenry03]

Do note that trip and other tactical feats are currently bugged and more effective than they should be in general. But once that's fixed, assuming you have built and geared for it then yes, Trip should still work on champs of a type that should be vulnerable to it, just like stun, dance, charm all still work if the underlying mob is susceptible.

Charming champs is my favorite strategy. They're SUCH effective aggro magnets :)

Yeah I tell EVERYONE...and even a few of my guildies just thought they were extra good at tripping...that trip is bugged and will be fixed eventually.

And as far as charming goes...I plan on carrying a charm spell on my sorc this life JUST for champs. Gonna play around with this one a little =)

[dunklezhan]

Yeah I tell EVERYONE...and even a few of my guildies just thought they were extra good at tripping...that trip is bugged and will be fixed eventually.

And as far as charming goes...I plan on carrying a charm spell on my sorc this life JUST for champs. Gonna play around with this one a little =)

Charmed champion acid elementals in Acid Wit are fun.

[elg582]

I play 4 different toons...all are 3rd+ lifers. I have no issues zerging most dungeons the same now as before. The difference is now I actually have to "think" about what mob I should kill first which is always a champion caster if there is one. Yes champs hit harder. yes they tend to bypass fort. And that all means zero to me. Took me less then a week to tweak my style a touch and now its not even really tweaked. In heroic elite levels my paladin still pulls half the dungeon even with red alert before he stops to kill everything with some cleaves. My druid still pulls half the dungeon before stopping to Earthquake/Icestorm.

I'm kinda lost on your point that it stops zerging.


Whose point? I said that it was intended to stop zerging, and later mentioned that it had failed. It doesn't even make me think, it just prioritizes melee Champion melees over non-Champ (chump? :) ) casters.





Oh and I know a lot of rgoues that still sneak through almost every dungeon and only occasionally have to stop for champs. Which by the way they kill quick and easy because they can be assassinated in most cases or tripped in almost every case.


Or stunned, or frozen, or whatever-CC-you-like, as well as having other weaknesses that I do not care to enumerate.





Any why does Turbine expect people to run the quest the way they want them ran? Oh I don't know maybe because it is their game and they have the final say.


Um, no; we are the customers, we have the final say. If we don't like it, they can keep "their" game.





Oh and there is a new player I have been helping...his name is Eyegougya on Sarlona. He could care less about champs and he runs on Elite with only decent gear I gave to him. Nothing even remotely powerful. We ran STK part 2 on Elite yesterday and I went afk for about 10 minutes. When I got back he had already cleared half the dungeon WITH champs and was moving along just fine. So YES a new player CAN deal with champs fine...they just need a little help on how. he didn't even know he could trip until I got him to put it on his hotbar.


Yay! One guy is doing OK in a level 6 quest. How's he going to handle a Champion doomsphere or marut?

I've TR'd 2 characters in the past month, elite bb pugs the whole way, and I'm done with it; I'm going back to playing first life characters and just doing normal runs until this goes away.

[psykopeta]

I've TR'd 2 characters in the past month, elite bb pugs the whole way, and I'm done with it; I'm going back to playing first life characters and just doing normal runs until this goes away.

haven't done a single quest in any diff lower than elite nor overlvl, i use to etr and then itr, so it's... 3 times all epic sagas

where's the OMFG champs are one shotting me?!

haven't seen it yet (1st heavy armor life this one btw, itr'ed friday night now i'm 24)

what i see is the "i won't die in a quest unless i go afk or expect from my toon more than he can handle" to "i will only die if i expect from my toon more than he can handle"

now i am... a 12 ranger 6 pally 2 rogue, using heavy armor and twf... one of the so many subpar builds you can see over there, and there's no trouble doing EE

if can't solo it? then don't solo it? don't ask for the game to be soloed by a toon like mine, only makes it boring, in fact it was broing til the annoying champs release

also champs have the bad habbit of chasing us trhought the whole dungeon so, they work fine if their objective is stopping the zerg... well, when cleaving the masses (yay twf with cleave!! subpar do u remember?) i use to target the champ to stun it while the rest die

btw, for running normal u don't need to use a 1st life, 3rd ones can too, in fact wouldn't be much further from how was elite before the champs

[Sehenry03]

haven't done a single quest in any diff lower than elite nor overlvl, i use to etr and then itr, so it's... 3 times all epic sagas

where's the OMFG champs are one shotting me?!

haven't seen it yet (1st heavy armor life this one btw, itr'ed friday night now i'm 24)

what i see is the "i won't die in a quest unless i go afk or expect from my toon more than he can handle" to "i will only die if i expect from my toon more than he can handle"

now i am... a 12 ranger 6 pally 2 rogue, using heavy armor and twf... one of the so many subpar builds you can see over there, and there's no trouble doing EE

if can't solo it? then don't solo it? don't ask for the game to be soloed by a toon like mine, only makes it boring, in fact it was broing til the annoying champs release

also champs have the bad habbit of chasing us trhought the whole dungeon so, they work fine if their objective is stopping the zerg... well, when cleaving the masses (yay twf with cleave!! subpar do u remember?) i use to target the champ to stun it while the rest die

btw, for running normal u don't need to use a 1st life, 3rd ones can too, in fact wouldn't be much further from how was elite before the champs

This 100%

And as far the new player I was referring to and you said "yay! 1 guy is doing great" umm no...that was the first example. I have helped 6 new players over the last few weeks...given gear to 2 of them. NONE of them have even mentioned champs or care about them.

[apacheizm23]

Try a lower difficulty setting.

lol :D:D

[apacheizm23]

Sometimes it is not the arrow but the archer who is at fault.

If you are lvl 25 and getting 1 shotted in a lvl 18 quest - even with an astounding 800 HP - then there is something wrong with you. Your build sucks or your playstyle sucks or you forgot to put DW on or something else I didn't mention. No PRR? No MRR? Get some and try again.

You may have even rolled a 1. Stuff happens. Deal with it or play on Normal difficulty until you get better.

Exactly.

[Powskier]

I like the challenge now..they can suk though..but it is o k ...quests like minatour village ;wow did I get my arse kicked earlier... it was a 1st lifer in a new land,but I was suprised that lvl12 run on hard would waste the character . I still hope ,we never go back to no champions- the randomness alone is worth it....oh and the EE champs,well just dont let them hit you twice in a row.

[Powskier]

I play 4 different toons...all are 3rd+ lifers. I have no issues zerging most dungeons the same now as before. The difference is now I actually have to "think" about what mob I should kill first which is always a champion caster if there is one. Yes champs hit harder. yes they tend to bypass fort. And that all means zero to me. Took me less then a week to tweak my style a touch and now its not even really tweaked. In heroic elite levels my paladin still pulls half the dungeon even with red alert before he stops to kill everything with some cleaves. My druid still pulls half the dungeon before stopping to Earthquake/Icestorm.

I'm kinda lost on your point that it stops zerging.

Oh and I know a lot of rgoues that still sneak through almost every dungeon and only occasionally have to stop for champs. Which by the way they kill quick and easy because they can be assassinated in most cases or tripped in almost every case.

Any why does Turbine expect people to run the quest the way they want them ran? Oh I don't know maybe because it is their game and they have the final say.

Oh and there is a new player I have been helping...his name is Eyegougya on Sarlona. He could care less about champs and he runs on Elite with only decent gear I gave to him. Nothing even remotely powerful. We ran STK part 2 on Elite yesterday and I went afk for about 10 minutes. When I got back he had already cleared half the dungeon WITH champs and was moving along just fine. So YES a new player CAN deal with champs fine...they just need a little help on how. he didn't even know he could trip until I got him to put it on his hotbar.

^;) champions are quite manageable in parties..solo, well good luck sometimes will be needed- I havent had rough time with them ,runnin some 1st lifers l8ly. Around lvl12 stormreach they get pretty nasty..but your character should be pretty ubber, for those in elite.

[Postumus]

imagine you are a new player, you have no packs, 28 points build and you just have nothing and you keep dying. would you go buy **** from ddostore as if you are going to continue playing this game very non newbie friendly?

.

When I was new I played on normal until I got good enough to play hard and elite. I expect most new players would play on normal and those who play on hard and elite want more of a challenge anyway.

[elg582]

haven't done a single quest in any diff lower than elite nor overlvl, i use to etr and then itr, so it's... 3 times all epic sagas
.
.
.
now i am... a 12 ranger 6 pally 2 rogue, using heavy armor and twf[/b]
.
.
.
where's the OMFG champs are one shotting me?!



So, let's see here:

You are running an overpowered FotM build that hasn't touched any quest under level 17, and you are still mowing through quests. Then there are the experienced but not quite veteran players, who are having some issues. Then there are the newer players, who are getting clobbered trying to keep up.





... one of the so many subpar builds


Subpar?! You didn't take 12 Ranger for the evasion, spells, or ranged ability, and you didn't take 6 Paladin for the bonus to saves or fear immunity, did you? You're playing a Paladin with a large Ranger splash.