Monster Champion Feedback

[Sehenry03]

Pink glasses won't save you.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/538/UJ9nc7.png (https://imageshack.com/i/eyUJ9nc7p)

(Wow - even I am shocked at how cruel and heartless it is to joke at real pain.
I stand here staring at the "submit reply" button. Do I hit it and post?
Oh that's right, I have no soul. <click> Sorry Bono - get well soon.)

Obviously this poor soul tried the Elite bike path when he should have stayed on the Normal one. Maybe he should upgrade to a 10 speed +5 of evasion

[phillymiket]

I don't even look for LFM's...when I look at that social screen it is ALL screwed up. Can't see names or how many are already in the group or anything.

Go to 'who' screen under the Social (last tab).
Click on search without defining the search (search for everyone)
Wait for it to finish search. It should clear that up.
You need to do that once every time you log in. (yea bugs!)

[Rys]

All I can say to that is that my experience on Thelanis has been awesome. maybe we just have better players overall?

Not really sure what this has to do with better players. I can solo everything just as I could before the update.

[Qhualor]

Maybe not. It's not really our fault if you have pink glasses on.

Besides, why would "better players" have anything to do with grouping? Your reply makes no sense.

this doesn't make sense. if some of us dont agree than we are wearing pink glasses? at least make them look cool like Sir Elton John.

[phillymiket]

this doesn't make sense. if some of us dont agree than we are wearing pink glasses? at least make them look cool like Sir Elton John.

Can we please not bring the singer/songwriters into the fight? :-(

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/901/1leGoO.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/p11leGoOj)

[slarden]

My problem is I can't bug report in game as the window never loads for me. The forums are my only way to report bugs so I do it here. Plus the dev's started the thread specifically asking for feedback here and have repeatedly said they read this thread for this info.

now if they are still reading who knows but they were originally =)

You are in luck! There is an alternate way to report bugs:

http://ddobugs.turbine.com/ics/support/ticketnewwizard.asp?style=classic&deptID=24037

[Impaqt]

Not really sure what this has to do with better players. I can solo everything just as I could before the update.

No one said you couldn't. not sure what that has to do with anything in this thread...

[slarden]

All I can say to that is that my experience on Thelanis has been awesome. maybe we just have better players overall?

Yeah I am sure that you have better players overall - that is the only possible answer isn't it?

I never claimed there was a problem with the # of LFMs on Sarlona - there is usually plenty. I am simply stating there is a disincentive to open spots when running level 26+ EEs. They will just find another LFM to hit - no big deal. I see no evidence that champions are helping grouping either. It seems fairly neutral to me - there were LFMS before and after champions.

[slarden]

Sarlona has been awesome for grouping lately. While leveling my TR's I will put up a group saying "Lvl 6 quests - Elite" and it fills within minutes now...and I do this for all levels from 1-20 and have no issues with people joining the group. I see a LOT of newer players and I know they are simply by seeing the HP's. Lots of people...and I mean LOTS with really low HP's. No wonder people are being 1 shotted. I spend most of the leveling time explaining about HP's and feats to take to help or gear to get to help...they usually double the HP's by the time we are done grouping.

Literally though after posting an LFM within 5 minutes I already have 3-4 people clicking to join

I've only noticed one-shotting in level 26+ EEs. It sounds like you are running mostly heroic quests - perhaps that is why are experience has been so different.

[Rys]

No one said you couldn't. not sure what that has to do with anything in this thread...

Your argument that champions encourage grouping which is simply untrue.

[Sehenry03]

I've only noticed one-shotting in level 26+ EEs. It sounds like you are running mostly heroic quests - perhaps that is why are experience has been so different.

Well I only really do a lot of pug groups before 20...after 20 I am always in a guild group and the players in my guild are top notch and much better then I am for sure.

[Sehenry03]

Go to 'who' screen under the Social (last tab).
Click on search without defining the search (search for everyone)
Wait for it to finish search. It should clear that up.
You need to do that once every time you log in. (yea bugs!)

Awesome thanx a ton!!!! I will try it tonight

[Impaqt]

Your argument that champions encourage grouping which is simply untrue.

wasnt an argument.. Just an observation. I see more LFM's in the panel. Many of them are for EE quests. this has gone UP since U24 went live.

Someone being able to solo EE post U24 has no bearing on that. I've never claimed people cant.

[MisterCanoeHead]

Or its not happening NEARLY as often as people THINK it happens. My GUESS is that most people complaining about being 1 shotted are just lemmings and are complaining about it because they READ it somewhere.

Yappy yap yap yap...I'm awesome...yappy yap yap...look at me...yappy yap yap...I'm so great...


*SNIP*


Here is what I think happened with Champions. Turbine initially released them, then watched as their internal data showed a sudden and noticeable drop in either logins and/or revenue. It's the only explanation as to why they acted so quickly. They then hurriedly tried to stymie the bleeding by reducing the power and numbers of Champions before their bosses at WB noticed their ham-handed "fix" to the difficulty complaints.

I also predict they either further nerf the Champion system or give it a complete over-haul.

Your attempt at data collecting is both laughable and meaningless.

[Daitengu]

I guess I should have mentioned EXTREME quests don't count. DDO expects you to die often and in horrible ways. You were suppose to be 1 shotted even without champions so any example OTHER then extreme challenge dungeons would be great.But no regular foe did that, only a f... champ gargoyle. And it doesnt matter if they are in an extreme challenge. I cannot survive 4k hits in easier quests too.

[doucefeuille]

our feedback after some try (after reading all the posts here)

We usualy play flowered dancing elves, wearing pyjamas, CC oriented, a little heal for urgencies etc.
We build toons for duo play without hire, ship-buff, craft, Tr etc.
We only equip trash loot gear, but we take care about the whole toon gear/build
We play casual, short sessions, different time zone so join a group is a bit tricky.

Before champ :
* HN was boriying it was a brainless run : easy trap, weak mobs
* HH was fine
* HE was a challenge but we can do it, taking our time, thinking about strategies, sometimes diying and try again.

With champ :
* HN is still boriying it's still the same brainless run : easy trap, weak mobs
* HH was harder than pre-champ HE, we experiment 1-shot or 2-shot in 1/2 quest, for us or for the escort/protect. try and try again, even with CC a 1-shot is still a 1-shot and sometimes CC do fail. We began to die several times every quest even when adapting strategies.
* HE with luck we can still do it. We noticed no huge difference betwen HH and HE as the luck factor is very important. A champ with a bad buff combination can happen in both case.

So our pyjamas flowered dancing elves even with CC are not playable with champ as sometimes we have not the time to re-enter again, again, again and again to face a powered champ to complete the quest.

As we cannot choose to play without champ (in something else than a boriying HN), nor to play longer sessions, nor to play with a group because of our time zone, the only thing we can change was our toons.
so we decided to try toons opposite to what we are used to play : warforged adamantine body with shield, huge fort and PRR, paly+arti.

And...

We just try HE at level and levels above and it's boriying because the toons are too powerfull for the quest we run fast and brainless into trash mobs and sometimes, realy sometimes, one champ make the game little interesting.... the same champ that would have 1-shot our pyjamas flowered dancing elves.

PRR is the difference betwen metal can vs dancing elves

Conclusion the game with champ doesn't call for diversity in build and there is no appropriate difficulty level for pyjamas

We understand that toons with hire, ship-buff, multi TRs, best gear can have an appropriate difficulty level for them, but actually there is nothing at all for a pyjamas between a boriying normal quest and a much much harder one with champ (HH and HE have the same difficulty because of randomness)

[ame132]

Quest: Yarkuch's War-Plans , Elite , solo
champ spider "Brown Spider Prince" (CR10) shortly after entrance had 2194 HP
isnt it a bit much for lvl 6 quest?

[Impaqt]

Quest: Yarkuch's War-Plans , Elite , solo
champ spider "Brown Spider Prince" (CR10) shortly after entrance had 2194 HP
isnt it a bit much for lvl 6 quest?

I'd guess no. those spider princes are tough. No where near as difficult as they were back in the day, but still above the norm for the level. They still rock 600+ HP on Elite, so if one got crowned, 2k+ would totally be in the range.

[harry-pancreas]

My limited exposure to them, here's my thoughts:

There is a spawn-rate problem. They seemed to spawn in every group of 4 or more mobs. If you're going to make something like this, you should have a drop rate of about 1 to 20 mobs.

That and the fact that people are soiling themselves that they no longer cannot solo EE with stacks and stacks of cake and pots makes me think they are just about PERFECT!!!!

Keep it up!

this ^^
a million times

[bls904c2]

I am a player that has 6 accounts, me, my wife, and 4 kids. from this last update my kids have stopped playing because its not fun. i have always refused to play anything but elite because i hate playing same dungeon like 10 times in a row to raise levels. Bravery Bonus keeps me from replaying dungeons. my kids don't like playing with me because they don't like being soul stones and pulled around to shrines. I won't break my BB like so many others.

They used their Christmas funds to pay for a years time on elder scrolls online. Just in my relatives that stopped playing because your latest updates of lets make it more difficult for the top 10%, is 7 people. All of who spend money every month.

Brilliant move catering to the 10%.

I am frustrated because I am to strong for normal to play with kids they just run through very luck to kill something because im 1-2 hit killing things, or they are in my back pack as soul stones in elites. before update elite was still easy for me but the kids got big kicks out of kill count because most of the time i slowed down just slow enough for them to get the last killing blow in, or i went from monster 1 hit them a few times went to monster 2 hit a few times went to monster 3 and so on so the kids always had the killing blows.

I use to play 2 quests a night every night. their 9th life TR toons going to just sit there now and by the way their ages are 5, 6, 8, and 10.

As for me and my monthly spending,I will probably be signing off also and switching games to follow suit after my kids

great job making the game for ubers.

[harry-pancreas]

I am a player that has 6 accounts, me, my wife, and 4 kids. from this last update my kids have stopped playing because its not fun. i have always refused to play anything but elite because i hate playing same dungeon like 10 times in a row to raise levels. Bravery Bonus keeps me from replaying dungeons. my kids don't like playing with me because they don't like being soul stones and pulled around to shrines. I won't break my BB like so many others.

They used their Christmas funds to pay for a years time on elder scrolls online. Just in my relatives that stopped playing because your latest updates of lets make it more difficult for the top 10%, is 7 people. All of who spend money every month.

Brilliant move catering to the 10%.

I am frustrated because I am to strong for normal to play with kids they just run through very luck to kill something because im 1-2 hit killing things, or they are in my back pack as soul stones in elites. before update elite was still easy for me but the kids got big kicks out of kill count because most of the time i slowed down just slow enough for them to get the last killing blow in, or i went from monster 1 hit them a few times went to monster 2 hit a few times went to monster 3 and so on so the kids always had the killing blows.

I use to play 2 quests a night every night. their 9th life TR toons going to just sit there now and by the way their ages are 5, 6, 8, and 10.

As for me and my monthly spending,I will probably be signing off also and switching games to follow suit after my kids

great job making the game for ubers.

are you really whining because you don't want to make a gimp so you can play with your kids ?
lols.

[harry-pancreas]

How many people in the last week have been TRULY 1 shotted?



my gimp 10PRR / 9% dodge wizard plays EH and EE and she told me this: "if they're getting 1 shotted in EH, they're gimps"

[ame132]

I'd guess no. those spider princes are tough. No where near as difficult as they were back in the day, but still above the norm for the level. They still rock 600+ HP on Elite, so if one got crowned, 2k+ would totally be in the range.

they have 277 hp, not 600+

[Ametrine]

definitely adds some fun to the game. Zerging=boring

ran EE madstone the other day and a champion skeleton takes out half the group in one swing, it was hilariously funny

[Impaqt]

they have 277 hp, not 600+

I'll have to check into that. If it is 277->2K+ then that would be a bug according to the devs. You should report it. But I could of sworn the Princes had a lot more than 277.

[Monkey-Boy]

Just finished a Heroic life on a zillion PL light-armor melee.

At no time was a champion any more than a speed-bump for me. Never died of even came close.

But the pugs in my groups . . . LOLz. The champions have made this game a pug snuff-film. Dropping like flies in nearly every quest.

So if Turbine's plan was to slow down vets a tiny bit while causing n00bs to die a hell of a lot with cheap hits I'd say everything is WAI.

[Jomee]

DDO will never be challenging enough for the top 10% of the players or easy enough for the bottom 10%, but it's the other 80% that matter and they keep the game making money. The game has to be made balanced and fun for the 80%. Why not just get rid of ship buffs, overpowered loot and destinies to keep the game challenging for yourselves? Makes no sense to cry for a challenge, get one then cry for better enhancements and loot to compensate as been done in the past.

[phillymiket]

Just finished a Heroic life on a zillion PL light-armor melee.

At no time was a champion any more than a speed-bump for me. Never died of even came close.

But the pugs in my groups . . . LOLz. The champions have made this game a pug snuff-film. Dropping like flies in nearly every quest.

So if Turbine's plan was to slow down vets a tiny bit while causing n00bs to die a hell of a lot with cheap hits I'd say everything is WAI.

My experiences as well.

Simply a slight delay for me but some new people are floor mops at times.

I think that's part of the reason why some Vets like them even though they couldn't possibly be really challenged by them.

[Monkey-Boy]

I think that's part of the reason why some Vets like them even though they couldn't possibly be really challenged by them.

I'm more of a "vet" than 99% of the posters, and I think the champions are the dumbest thing in DDO since Ghostbane.

If elite got too easy scale everything upwards. And don't' touch heroics.

[slarden]

definitely adds some fun to the game. Zerging=boring

ran EE madstone the other day and a champion skeleton takes out half the group in one swing, it was hilariously funny

Another example of one-shotting. Thank you - the devs are interested in this.

[slarden]

DDO will never be challenging enough for the top 10% of the players or easy enough for the bottom 10%, but it's the other 80% that matter and they keep the game making money. The game has to be made balanced and fun for the 80%. Why not just get rid of ship buffs, overpowered loot and destinies to keep the game challenging for yourselves? Makes no sense to cry for a challenge, get one then cry for better enhancements and loot to compensate as been done in the past.

/Thread

Truth

[Cardoor]

I hate the monster champion mechanic more than I have ever hated anything in DDO.

[Qhualor]

Another example of one-shotting. Thank you - the devs are interested in this.

not much of an example when those same skeles before Champions were one shotting me on EE. that's what happens when you are just doing past lives and not trying to properly invest in defense or go with the flow of the fast pace of the group you are in using more brawn than brain.

[count_spicoli]

Just finished a Heroic life on a zillion PL light-armor melee.

At no time was a champion any more than a speed-bump for me. Never died of even came close.

But the pugs in my groups . . . LOLz. The champions have made this game a pug snuff-film. Dropping like flies in nearly every quest.

So if Turbine's plan was to slow down vets a tiny bit while causing n00bs to die a hell of a lot with cheap hits I'd say everything is WAI.

Ha ha what? Ive pug all the time and have hardly been in any groups that have died from champs since the nerf. Just the same old zerg blasts with everyone doing their own thing. Snooze fest. Where are all these really bad players that are whining all the time?

[Sehenry03]

Ha ha what? Ive pug all the time and have hardly been in any groups that have died from champs since the nerf. Just the same old zerg blasts with everyone doing their own thing. Snooze fest. Where are all these really bad players that are whining all the time?

This!!

I just TR'ed Mheka into a rogue/fighter currently and I did all the Korthos and lvl 2 quests on elite. I had a couple low hp's toons join but not sure if they were new or not but neither were TR's and the only death was the bard who went straight to the named ogre in Butchers Path and got 1 shotted =) (and he apologized over and over why do people feel they have to apologize for dying??? Are people really THAT pathetic that a loss of 10% makes them belittle others that die???)

[Qhualor]

This!!

I just TR'ed Mheka into a rogue/fighter currently and I did all the Korthos and lvl 2 quests on elite. I had a couple low hp's toons join but not sure if they were new or not but neither were TR's and the only death was the bard who went straight to the named ogre in Butchers Path and got 1 shotted =) (and he apologized over and over why do people feel they have to apologize for dying??? Are people really THAT pathetic that a loss of 10% makes them belittle others that die???)

embarrassment perhaps?

a veteran playing a new toon still feeling the power from his other geared out characters and remembers the old days of people getting upset for not getting the 10% precious bonus?

I still hear apologies too, but 95% of the time I don't hear anyone getting upset over a death or caring about it. we are mostly done with all that rage over a death drama now.

[Braegan]

Where are all these really bad players that are whining all the time?

Mostly just on the forums.

[Hershaw]

I've been playing for a couple of years now and I'm on my 13th life, a bard/rogue basic sub-optimal build. Now, when I'm leveling, there's actually a chaince I could die on HE. Soloing is no longer automatic.
I love this new change. Don't need any more loot or xp, there's enough of that. The added difficulty is great!

[General_Gronker]

I don't mean anything condescending about this question

Wouldn't know that from reading your post.

[MisterCanoeHead]

I'll have to check into that. If it is 277->2K+ then that would be a bug according to the devs. You should report it. But I could of sworn the Princes had a lot more than 277.

Ran Tangleroot HE last night, the 2 brown spiders had 137 and the Black Widow had 187. >2000 HP is way beyond excessive.

[Zillee]

I am a player that has 6 accounts, me, my wife, and 4 kids. from this last update my kids have stopped playing because its not fun. i have always refused to play anything but elite because i hate playing same dungeon like 10 times in a row to raise levels. Bravery Bonus keeps me from replaying dungeons. my kids don't like playing with me because they don't like being soul stones and pulled around to shrines. I won't break my BB like so many others.

They used their Christmas funds to pay for a years time on elder scrolls online. Just in my relatives that stopped playing because your latest updates of lets make it more difficult for the top 10%, is 7 people. All of who spend money every month.

Brilliant move catering to the 10%.

I am frustrated because I am to strong for normal to play with kids they just run through very luck to kill something because im 1-2 hit killing things, or they are in my back pack as soul stones in elites. before update elite was still easy for me but the kids got big kicks out of kill count because most of the time i slowed down just slow enough for them to get the last killing blow in, or i went from monster 1 hit them a few times went to monster 2 hit a few times went to monster 3 and so on so the kids always had the killing blows.

I use to play 2 quests a night every night. their 9th life TR toons going to just sit there now and by the way their ages are 5, 6, 8, and 10.

As for me and my monthly spending,I will probably be signing off also and switching games to follow suit after my kids

great job making the game for ubers.

This is perhaps the saddest thing I've ever read. Your poor children ... you seriously couldn't make a toon just for playing with them at a level (normal perhaps?) where they might do something more than cheer dad on from his backpack?

[LevelJ]

Ran a quest the other day with a water elemental champion who happened to end up with the vulnerable debuff. Yikes...before the group got a single hit off, the entire party had 20 stacks of Vulnerable each (over the course of 2-3 seconds). I am seriously not kidding. If I had to guess the culprit, I'd pin the blame on the water elemental's cold debuff aura which refreshes repeatedly. Fortunately for our group the elemental didn't get a chance to get a shot off, but it seems to me that Vulnerable needs a cooldown to keep from applying stacks so fast, or be adjusted so that auras like that don't proc it.

Other than that, champions have been fine for me recently. Challenging, yes...I particularly dislike second wind, but I'm not going to complain about a challenge on elite.


-Jayron

[MangLord]

I ran HE LoD chain with some friends today and Spinner of Shadows was chock full of 10k hp trash Hezrou champions that would not stop respawning. One of them happened to have the nasty extra damage boost when he dropped below 50% health or so, and that was a near wipe. Not a lot of fun without epic destinies to help you out. If we weren't all very experienced players who run with each other a lot, I imagine the quest would have been undoable at level.

The vulnerability stackage doesn't seem to stack more than 3-4 times anymore, but it's incredibly frightening when you get stacks and have to deal with 7-8 enemies all benefitting from the effect, especially as a cleaving melee guy in heavy armor. Having bad luck and getting vulnerable stacks from one champion while another is benefitting from 2nd Wind is really hard to deal with, even with 500+hp and a reconstruct SLA.

The hezrou were always pretty rough on elite without champions. I feel sorry for newer players that walk into Spinner without a few past lives, gear and optimal builds. It was really tough, even with a couple KoTC paladins and a dedicated healer in the party.

[Jahamar1]

I quit playing Diablo 2 because of Champions, but i'm willing to compromise.
Let's say we don't introduce them until level 12 dungeons.

Just because 1% of the populous are elite and have maxed out their toons doesn't mean that the other 99% has or does that. I don't play this game with min/max in mind. I don't think it's fair to assume that EVERYONE plays the same build to SOLO EVERYTHING. Elite content is hard enough for the average player (average making up the majority of the clientele base). Most elitist only think about themselves and only hang out with other ppl who only think about themselves.

I like to theory craft different builds and be able to play them. I'm not on this forum looking for the latest ultimate build to be godlike and then complain the content is too easy for my godliness. I also don't have all the latest and greatest gear. I'm not working towards that either. I don't even have a completionist yet. I want to enjoy the game while making one. I've only been playing this game for 3 years and i am still catching up with gear and trying out different builds. I like playing on elite cause it's challenging just enough for me to enjoy the content. I love TR'ing and ER'ing, but I can't get a toon to 20 in 3 days. It takes me 3 weeks to get to 28 and i like that.

I, for one, find the content sufficiently challenging on elite. Some of it is even ridiculous but it's fine. The Champions are making my play experience, in a game that i love, disheartening and i find myself not wanting to play.

If i wanted champions in my gameplay, i'd go back to diablo 2. Getting one shotted by a champion isn't a challenge. Getting mobbed by 3 champions makes me want to quit.


A better solution to the ppl who complain the content is too easy should have ramped up dungeons just for them ...there is no better gear, just bragging rights, a better score card. Maybe make these dungeons ramp in difficulty as time goes on and make it so they can't invis to the end to complete the quest...the content of the dungeon has to be completed against very resilient mobs by the time the player(s) reach the end. Also make it more of a WoW style dungeon where the grp needs a balanced team so it cannot be soloed. The rules could also not allow ship buffs, but the toons have to survive on their own merit. Also put traps in the dungeons that HAVE to be disabled or a no save blast kills the grp entirely no matter where in the dungeon they are. Don't make the trap dc's ridiculous, just make it so there has to be a trapsmith in the grp.

[fmalfeas]

I ran HE LoD chain with some friends today and Spinner of Shadows was chock full of 10k hp trash Hezrou champions that would not stop respawning. One of them happened to have the nasty extra damage boost when he dropped below 50% health or so, and that was a near wipe. Not a lot of fun without epic destinies to help you out. If we weren't all very experienced players who run with each other a lot, I imagine the quest would have been undoable at level.

The vulnerability stackage doesn't seem to stack more than 3-4 times anymore, but it's incredibly frightening when you get stacks and have to deal with 7-8 enemies all benefitting from the effect, especially as a cleaving melee guy in heavy armor. Having bad luck and getting vulnerable stacks from one champion while another is benefitting from 2nd Wind is really hard to deal with, even with 500+hp and a reconstruct SLA.

The hezrou were always pretty rough on elite without champions. I feel sorry for newer players that walk into Spinner without a few past lives, gear and optimal builds. It was really tough, even with a couple KoTC paladins and a dedicated healer in the party.

Wait, wait. You're saying that due to champions, the quest on Elite became a thing for a group of highly experienced players? Just like it says on the description of elite? And you're complaining?

[Jahamar1]

Wait, wait. You're saying that due to champions, the quest on Elite became a thing for a group of highly experienced players? Just like it says on the description of elite? And you're complaining?

No what he is saying is it was difficult enough on elite and now it's stupid silly with champions. What he is also saying is the game has become only playable with optimum characters and and is not a game for everyone now.

[slarden]

No what he is saying is it was difficult enough on elite and now it's stupid silly with champions. What he is also saying is the game has become only playable with optimum characters and and is not a game for everyone now.

You don't need an optimum character. Champions are two-trick ponies

1) lots of hp
2) high melee crit damage potential since they ignore fortification entirely

I changed my shiradi caster from a 14 wizard / 4 fvs / 2 monk with evasion and high dodge (which in my opinion was the optimal split after trying them all) to a wizard 18 / fvs 2 with adamantine body. This reduces my physical damage by over 50% and my magical damage by 40%. 16/4 is also a good split as you get one more chain missle out of it, but you lose the energy drain, power word kill and meteor swarm which are useful against champs (or champ mobs in case of meteor swarm).

Energy drain works good on champs that aren't deathwarded. Some champs have deathblock but not deathward - I saw this several times with my PM. Finger didn't work, but energy drain did. So Power Word kill is less useful.

Evasion is so 2014.

I never got one-hit since I respec'd to deal with one-shot metagame, but I did die once in Inferno (High Lords run on Sarlona - one of the top guilds) where the crowned Cinderspawn knocked me down and hit me for 300+ 4 straight times (600 before DR). The party had about 30 deaths total - mostly from champs and probably half from the cinderspawn. There wans't a dedicated healer which might have kept us alive.

Ironically the orange named crowned cinderspawn were brutal, but the end boss wasn't at all.

[Keladon]

You don't need an optimum character. Champions are two-trick ponies

1) lots of hp
2) high melee crit damage potential since they ignore fortification entirely

I changed my shiradi caster from a 14 wizard / 4 fvs / 2 monk with evasion and high dodge (which in my opinion was the optimal split after trying them all) to a wizard 18 / fvs 2 with adamantine body. This reduces my physical damage by over 50% and my magical damage by 40%. 16/4 is also a good split as you get one more chain missle out of it, but you lose the energy drain, otto's irresistable and meteor swarm which are useful against champs (or champ mobs in case of meteor swarm).

Otto's irresistable and energy drain work good on champs that aren't deathwarded. Some champs have deathblock but not deathward - I saw this several times with my PM. Finger didn't work, but energy drain did.

Evasion is so 2014.

I never got one-hit since I respec'd to deal with one-shot metagame, but I did die once in Inferno (High Lords run on Sarlona - one of the top guilds) where the crowned Cinderspawn knocked me down and hit me for 300+ 4 straight times (600 before DR). The party had about 30 deaths total - mostly from champs and probably half from the cinderspawn. There wans't a dedicated healer which might have kept us alive.

Ironically the orange named crowned cinderspawn were brutal, but the end boss wasn't at all.

So you don't need an optimum character but you do need to respec to be able to handle champions? Great for build diversity.

The fact that you call it a "one-shot metagame" says enough. Is this really what people want?

Same for the fact that you can go "at least the end boss will be easy".. I mean.. really?

It's like someone said when I told about one of my 1shot experiences... roll a paladin. Hey, it's a solution! It's just not the solution I want to see and I think that doesn't only apply to me.

[slarden]

So you don't need an optimum character but you do need to respec to be able to handle champions? Great for build diversity.

The fact that you call it a "one-shot metagame" says enough. Is this really what people want?

Same for the fact that you can go "at least the end boss will be easy".. I mean.. really?

It's like someone said when I told about one of my 1shot experiences... roll a paladin. Hey, it's a solution! It's just not the solution I want to see and I think that doesn't only apply to me.

Roll with punches and adapt. The devs might make some tweaks, but this is someone's pet project and devs have the same weakness to view feedback and facts to support their beliefs just like players do. In the end they will likely determine their champion idea was a good one and they will conclude their data and forum feedback supports that conclusion. Trust me on that.

It will take a lot of work to fix the problems with champions and we all see how things work. They will make a global adjustment up and down and then leave it as is and move on to the next project. So power gamers will be mad about 25% damage adjustment down and others will be mad champs exist at all. Most won't care at all. Oh well, win some lose some.

[Sehenry03]

Wait, wait. You're saying that due to champions, the quest on Elite became a thing for a group of highly experienced players? Just like it says on the description of elite? And you're complaining?

Plz don't try to use logic...you will simply confuse everyone who thinks they are entitled to run Elite on non-geared / flavor builds.

I am so...shocked...to find the amount of people who think they should be able to run Elite with ANY build using ANY gear simply because they feel they are entitled to get the favor without gearing for it. Shocked really doesn't even go far enough really.

Also the argument "this is how people are conditioned and they expect this" is also shocking. So a game has been easier then it should and it suddenly gets fixed to how it should have been the entire time and people complain that they can't run elite now?

I get champions ****ing people off for various reasons but dang people get off the Elite should be for everyone argument =(

And lets thank Sev for stating in his producers letter that they intend on keeping champions and that they plan on adding stuff for them. And again no mention of a check box =) Now lets just toughen them back up again...

[Sehenry03]

So you don't need an optimum character but you do need to respec to be able to handle champions? Great for build diversity.

Elite should ALWAYS need optimal gear/build to be able to succeed. So yes...if you want to run Elite then get the best gear and build your character to survive. Right monks are the only class I see having issues with Champions. Every other class can build around it. Skilled players still do well on monks but a newer player playing one is gonna get flattened.

[Keladon]

Roll with punches and adapt. The devs might make some tweaks, but this is someone's pet project and devs have the same weakness to view feedback and facts to support their beliefs just like players do. In the end they will likely determine their champion idea was a good one and they will conclude their data and forum feedback supports that conclusion. Trust me on that.

It will take a lot of work to fix the problems with champions and we all see how things work. They will make a global adjustment up and down and then leave it as is and move on to the next project. So power gamers will be mad about 25% damage adjustment down and others will be mad champs exist at all. Oh well, win some lose some.

I hope that won't happen but I'm afraid it will.

The only issue I have is that it's win a tiny bit, lose a lot. But I still have +20 heart and there's probably a fotm build out there that somewhat fits my playstyle.

If this means I have to stop making fun and quirky builds, I guess that's just how it is.


Elite should ALWAYS need optimal gear/build to be able to succeed. So yes...if you want to run Elite then get the best gear and build your character to survive. Right monks are the only class I see having issues with Champions. Every other class can build around it. Skilled players still do well on monks but a newer player playing one is gonna get flattened.

We had too many viable builds, it wasn't acceptable. I don't understand why it wasn't, but I'll deal with it.
Like I said, I'll just copy a fotm build. No need to keep preaching the same thing over & over again.

[slarden]

Elite should ALWAYS need optimal gear/build to be able to succeed. So yes...if you want to run Elite then get the best gear and build your character to survive. Right monks are the only class I see having issues with Champions. Every other class can build around it. Skilled players still do well on monks but a newer player playing one is gonna get flattened.

My only answer for rogue is past lifes and the party having rez scrolls. Although sneaking up and assassinating champs works good if they don't have deathblock or deathward. I won't bring my 800 hp rogue into higher level EEs.

My PM and bard are using medium armor now. My shiradi caster is using adamantine body. It makes a difference.

[slarden]

I hope that won't happen but I'm afraid it will.

The only issue I have is that it's win a tiny bit, lose a lot. But I still have +20 heart and there's probably a fotm build out there that somewhat fits my playstyle.

If this means I have to stop making fun and quirky builds, I guess that's just how it is.

The tree build looks fun. Whirlwind and one-shot every enemy around you

Focus on your new build rather than fighting champions for sure.

[Zargonia]

As a player that rarely visits the forums and just doesn't do the kind of research in a video game that many of the other DDO players seem to, I find the existence of Champions to be unbalanced for one reason: they make quest times take longer without providing an adequate reward. Whether the time needed to overcome Champions is spent gathering efficient gear, reading up on strategies and character designs, or just bashing the same monster over and over, if the game is going to take longer to get to the same places than some kind of compensation needs to be in place -- and a random chest drop just doesn't do it.

The solution seems obvious; give an XP reward for Champions. I'm not nearly smart enough to create an equation for this, but if "Red Name" monsters come with XP rewards, then a randomly generated Champion that takes far more effort to defeat should do the same. After all, shouldn't a player's time be a rewarding experience?

[Qhualor]

I hope that won't happen but I'm afraid it will.

The only issue I have is that it's win a tiny bit, lose a lot. But I still have +20 heart and there's probably a fotm build out there that somewhat fits my playstyle.

If this means I have to stop making fun and quirky builds, I guess that's just how it is.



We had too many viable builds, it wasn't acceptable. I don't understand why it wasn't, but I'll deal with it.
Like I said, I'll just copy a fotm build. No need to keep preaching the same thing over & over again.

It sounds more like the player than the build to be honest. I have been on a reincarnation grind on all my characters for 3 years a lot of times in off destinies and not the best gear or knowledge of the class. I don't play FOTM, min/max or ride coattails and I don't have most of the problems you have been having.

[Keladon]

It sounds more like the player than the build to be honest. I have been on a reincarnation grind on all my characters for 3 years a lot of times in off destinies and not the best gear or knowledge of the class. I don't play FOTM, min/max or ride coattails and I don't have most of the problems you have been having.

Because you know.. we've had champions for 3 years now.

I didn't use to have any of these problems either.


The tree build looks fun. Whirlwind and one-shot every enemy around you


Thanks for the suggestion!

[Qhualor]

Because you know.. we've had champions for 3 years now.

I didn't use to have any of these problems either.

I was including Champions which have been around for a few weeks now.

[Keladon]

I was including Champions which have been around for a few weeks now.

So what you're saying is that someone with a bunch of past lives doing a reincarnation grind for 3 years now is still able to run elite without the mentioned issues.
What about everyone else?
Thanks for supporting the point I'm trying to make!

[Qhualor]

So what you're saying is that someone with a bunch of past lives doing a reincarnation grind for 3 years now is still able to run elite without the mentioned issues.
What about everyone else?
Thanks for supporting the point I'm trying to make!

lol nice try, but I didn't support your point. if you think you need to resort to a FOTM build because your current build cant handle Champions than its a player problem. I was trying to show that even someone with a dozen past lives at best on any of my characters, all melee and Iconic ones, going through past lives with nothing more than random gear from chests and a few named items and without a lot of knowledge on the class that is not a min/max or FOTM build can handle them. you are proving over and over that you are unwilling to try to use more thought into defeating a new challenge.

[Keladon]

if you think you need to resort to a FOTM build because your current build cant handle Champions than its a player problem.

When multiple people advice me to reroll a different class, you know it's a build problem.

Like I said, thanks for helping me prove my point!

My build can't handle champions so I need to resort to a FOTM build.
Goodbye build diversity!

[slarden]

lol nice try, but I didn't support your point. if you think you need to resort to a FOTM build because your current build cant handle Champions than its a player problem. I was trying to show that even someone with a dozen past lives at best on any of my characters, all melee and Iconic ones, going through past lives with nothing more than random gear from chests and a few named items and without a lot of knowledge on the class that is not a min/max or FOTM build can handle them. you are proving over and over that you are unwilling to try to use more thought into defeating a new challenge.

You don't need a FOTM bulid just PRR/MRR - that is it. Harder hitting meatbags that can one shot you if you don't have enough PRR since they can completely bypass fortification.

You are overplaying the amount of skill involved.

[fmalfeas]

Here's a nice, simple build that is very, very effective in most content. So utterly simple that most people don't think of it.

Dwarf. Fighter 20. Enhancements focused in Vanguard with Stalwart support, and Dwarf racial (Dwarf Fortress!).

Massive, massive AC, very strong HP even without silly toughness feat stacking. Very high MRR and PRR with the tower shield that a dwarf fortress should be using. Dwarven Axe + Tower Shield in Vanguard with Improved Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Bash will give you much higher DPS than you'd suspect, and good stunning and knockdowns. (Don't forget the capstone!)

In heroic elite, you'll pretty close to be free to ignore almost everything. Including traps. You'll mitigate everything down so brutally you'll be astounded. Only Beholders and other level-drain spammers will be a serious threat. EE, on the other hand, I don't know. Haven't taken this utterly simple classic-D&D build in there yet.

[Keladon]

Here's a nice, simple build that is very, very effective in most content. So utterly simple that most people don't think of it.

Dwarf. Fighter 20. Enhancements focused in Vanguard with Stalwart support, and Dwarf racial (Dwarf Fortress!).

Massive, massive AC, very strong HP even without silly toughness feat stacking. Very high MRR and PRR with the tower shield that a dwarf fortress should be using. Dwarven Axe + Tower Shield in Vanguard with Improved Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Bash will give you much higher DPS than you'd suspect, and good stunning and knockdowns. (Don't forget the capstone!)

In heroic elite, you'll pretty close to be free to ignore almost everything. Including traps. You'll mitigate everything down so brutally you'll be astounded. Only Beholders and other level-drain spammers will be a serious threat. EE, on the other hand, I don't know. Haven't taken this utterly simple classic-D&D build in there yet.

Will try that for a fighter life, thanks!

It's just a shame that high PRR/MRR is a necessity now, it was supposed to make heavier armors better, not make them the only viable option.

[Qhualor]

You don't need a FOTM bulid just PRR/MRR - that is it. Harder hitting meatbags that can one shot you if you don't have enough PRR since they can completely bypass fortification.

You are overplaying the amount of skill involved.

that's what im trying to say. its Keladon that is saying he will be switching to a FOTM build, not me. you don't need FOTM and you don't need those kinds of builds to defeat Champions or EE.

I just did 6 rogue lives on 2 characters that had PRR that never topped higher than the 30's and dodge no higher than 15%. I did have blur GS/named item, ghostly and 1 displacement clicky. I was running EE all the time and did take on too much damage at times requiring more healing but never was one shot by any Champions, even disintegrating casters and beholders.

[Qhualor]

When multiple people advice me to reroll a different class, you know it's a build problem.

Like I said, thanks for helping me prove my point!

My build can't handle champions so I need to resort to a FOTM build.
Goodbye build diversity!

those people are wrong if they say to reroll. I have said and will always say skill and knowledge is greater than build.

you are being intentionally obtuse, but that's ok considering your unwillingness to try to be a better player.

[Keladon]

those people are wrong if they say to reroll. I have said and will always say skill and knowledge is greater than build.

you are being intentionally obtuse, but that's ok considering your unwillingness to try to be a better player.

Oh the irony.

Did you even look at a few of the previous posts?

[Sehenry03]

that's what im trying to say. its Keladon that is saying he will be switching to a FOTM build, not me. you don't need FOTM and you don't need those kinds of builds to defeat Champions or EE.

I just did 6 rogue lives on 2 characters that had PRR that never topped higher than the 30's and dodge no higher than 15%. I did have blur GS/named item, ghostly and 1 displacement clicky. I was running EE all the time and did take on too much damage at times requiring more healing but never was one shot by any Champions, even disintegrating casters and beholders.

The problem is people don't WANT to adapt. They WANT to be able to play a crippled build and use the "I like my flavor builds" argument. Flavor builds are meant for normal runs. Flavor builds have always been known as the "They are fun but won't work on elite" builds. The game has been so easy for the last few years that you could stop lvling at 12 and still finish HE content.

The game SHOULD be about Elite only for builds you actually BUILD for Elite content. Want to play a wizard? That's fine but you can take the adamantine body feat and make your life a lot easier on yourself and you are elite capable now with that one feat. Wizards are NOT feat starved it is easy to fit in. Rogues can still wear light armor and get PRR/MRR up to about 50 easy and reduce damage a LOT with just that.

Again I say Monks are the only ones truly hurt by champions simply because they are relegated to robes/outifts with very few options as far as PRR/MRR go. The thing is I have no sympathy because they were the ultimate splash class for how many years? Almost everyone took 2/6 levels of monk. And regardless of how a lot of people feel about pure monks...they were WAY OP for awhile. They had there moment in the sun and now its time to help some other classes. You can still build a VERY powerful Monk with a few splashes of other classes. They are still glass cannons but they put out some insane dps numbers...they just die fast on EE lol. Again I have no sympathy because they were insane for so long.

Personally I love the heavy armor system now. It gives tanks a chance to shine til they nerf it.

Champions though...they are the best system right now to balance dungeons. Still need to be buffed more but its a start.

But seriously if you think you have to play a paladin or fighter to get PRR you might want to go to Sarlona and type /joinchannel help and ask for ideas. Lots of people have champions figured out and aren't bothered by them much anymore. Someone in that channel can give you ideas on how to build a good class if you can't.

[Buddha5440]

The only issue I have had with champions since they came along was the initial spawn rate. Happening upon a room where 4 out of 7 mobs were champions on EH is not right and was all too common, for the first few days. Now that's fixed and I have no issues with them.

[Sehenry03]

The only issue I have had with champions since they came along was the initial spawn rate. Happening upon a room where 4 out of 7 mobs were champions on EH is not right and was all too common, for the first few days. Now that's fixed and I have no issues with them.

This is a very valid point and has been fixed for the most part. I would still say they should have some sort of limit to only allow 1 champion every so many mobs. The idea of champions implies they are tougher then normal so you should only have 1 in a group leading it. If you have 15 mobs appear have 1 MAYBE 2 in the whole group. If you are continuously running into 1 mob at a time then sure it could be a champion 1 after another.

And still...meatbags are still to common...and by common 1 in an entire dungeon is still to much. Had 3 ogres with 2 having 600hp's and the 3rd had 4500hp's PLUS every resistance

[MangLord]

Just running EH and HE over the past week, I still think the amount of champions are too common to be anything special. Overall, they don't seem to be much more difficult than a regular mob other than having a bunch more HP you have to chop through. I look at them as more of a gatekeeper mechanic than anything else. I tend to play a conquest/ransack style, and all they really do is add a bit more to my overall completion time, and make me cocoon myself a couple extra times.

With the producer's letter mentioning some sort of champion reward system in the future, what does the team have in mind? Will champions drop sacks like collectibles, or will the rewards only show up in champion chests? I would be inclined towards a dropping collectable, since some quests are very heavy on orange named enemies (Haunted Hall, for example), and I could see people exploiting that aspect (particularly the dragon fight where you can kite the dragon through the frozen mobs, have it break out all the encased enemies in the cavern, let them all kill each other and loot a dozen or more chests when you're done) to manipulate game mechanics. As it is now, regular mob champions are pretty dull and don't serve much of a purpose.

I'd like to see champion collectable turn-ins be fairly compelling. If potions are to be on the rewards list, I'd like to see some fairly interesting offerings. The eternal flasks from the anniversary cards are a great start. People like deathward, displacement, FoM and greater heroism. Caster level 10 seems appropriate if the price is reasonable. Players have been petitioning for a reasonable healing potion for quite a long time. This seems like a great opportunity to introduce it. Consumables should be inexpensive. There's no point if they're offered like eveningstar commendation pots. No one wants to spend days earning enough to make a small handful of potions that they can run through in several hours. The alchemical spellpower and damage pots from Commendations of Valor seem a touch pricey for 10 min of use. I trade them because I have nothing else to do with Valor Comms now that I have my TF weapon built and Heart Seeds are easy to earn. I usually take comms as a quest reward because I don't seem to get guild renown often until I'm near level cap, and I certainly don't need any more trash loot.
Some big ticket items would also be nice, like armor, shields and weapons. A leveled system would be ideal, similar to the festival events, where you could build lvl 4/8/12/16/20/24/28 versions for increasingly higher costs (or 5/10/15/20/25/30). I realize that too many weapons would be a coding nightmare, but you could take a similar approach to the Vault of the Artificers elemental weapons, where there was one elemental weapon to represent the core fighting styles (greataxe, khopesh, rapier, longbow). Say, a dagger, a greatsword, a tower shield and a heavy repeater (for variety), each having tiered versions that were pretty solid and all purpose, that any average player could potentially earn with the only investment being time. For me, killing hordes of champions to earn some special but useless companion critter is not compelling at all. Turning in 15000 champion tokens for a 10 min +2 profane or primal save boost clickie that I can use 3/rest certainly would be a goal to strive for.

[Ancient]

I still like champions. Most of my previous experience had been in epics, but I TR'd Sham into an iconic and played from 15-20... Still like champions. Maybe they have issues at the very low levels, but from 15 up to EE they are just fine.

[Stoner81]

Champions in their current state are a freaking nightmare in low level heroics, I ran the 3rd part of STK yesterday and there was a Large Earth Elemental who was CR11 (quest is level 6 on Elite) and had over 2,500 HP! The thing hit so hard is was beyond a joke and that is just one instance! I have run across 3-5 champions in the same room with other mobs plus bosses!

I propose the following:

Red and Orange named bosses can not become champions... ever!
If a aforementioned boss is in a room no other monsters can become champions.
Monster groups must consist of at least 4 monsters before a champ can spawn, if one does then it is the ONLY ONE!
Levels 1-10 (approx) need to have the HP cut down in half along with the damage they do.
Overall reduce spawn rates so every corner doesn't have a champion or a multitude thereof!

Stoner81.

[JOTMON]

1. Would like to see the examine window be able to be left up permanently instead of click. examine, lock...click examine, move window..lose targeting, re-examine., shift to next target,, re-examine...
This way I can target various mobs and have the examine window show their respective buffs without having to re-examine every mob everytime with the current sloppy examine mechanic..


2. I would like to see the ignore fortification option of champions be removed.
I can appreciate a fortification bypass, that is why We build to have more than 100%..
What is the point of building 278% fortification when a champion can just come along and ignore it completely and crit tag your for 1k+ damage... effectively an insta-kill.
It makes tanking ineffective vs the kiting pewpewers and the keep-a-way dotter casters.
.. it becomes.. I can tank unless there is a champion in the trash mob group in which case I will be running around in circles trying to figure out whether or not the champion has ignore fort buff before I stop to tank and hold aggro.

[psykopeta]

http://i57.tinypic.com/4ut46d.jpg

i called the file lovely.jpeg

1st time i see that nice combo, TS, fort bypass (that means all fort = 0) and extra damage

yay!! moar moar!! in fact all champs should be that way, would be much better than having random npc(like statues in rainbow in the dark, i mean those that never become active) being champion

[KitsuneHonor]

My issue with "Champion Mobs" has nothing to do with the damage they do, or death-block or anything like that. My issue is the effect it is having on player options. Dungeons and Dragons, at its core, has been and should always be freedom of choice to play how you want. As an MMO, half of the fun of the table top game was taken from us, the gamer. This half was being the DM. Creating a story enriched environment in which to engross our players and have them adventure in. This was not a bad thing. Over several years this amazing world of fantasy has evolved around me and I have been a part of it. However, with the addition of champion mobs, you are changing the game for your players. Forcing us to either accept that we have to party, or to play on normal.

I'm not disagreeing that people that cant hack higher difficulty should play on what is appropriate for them. But, with Bravery Bonus incentive, Favor always playing a part in what content a player has, be it Drow, 32 point build, an extra bag slot, or buffs, not to mention the DDO points, players are already NATURALLY drawn to higher difficulties by mechanics that YOU have set up. A good DM leaves incentives like these in their world to lure players to the content they want them to find, but leaving them the freedom to chose what they want to do. This however, is luring players into a death trap.

You are making a game, and I understand the need to appeal to your dedicated audience. However, you hold a brand name in your hands that has embodied freedom of choice for years. Do not stray from that theme, and I think you will do fine. You have so far.

[Robbenklopper]

What´s in there to loot from the Champions´ chests anyway? I didn´t see anything worth picking up at all, mostly like regular chests. You can better stop with those chest-drops, it´s just for personal Frustration in my eyes, only boring underaverage stuff, sorry.

[horriblescarz]

woah nelly.... woaaah.

I LUV THE CHAMPS. MAKE MORE SPAWN. MAKE THEM TOUGHER. MAKE THEM HIT HARDER. MAKE MORE RED NAMED CHAMPS SPWAN. INCREASE THE CHEST DROP RATE.

ik i am rlly luvin the champs and the current spawn rates in eh and ee content, i cant say much for heroics though b/c epic is more fun for me than heroics. my only complaints i sthe poor chest drop rates and that in some quests the chests will spawn in the air (haunted halls) or in the ground (devils assault). if these UN-accessable chests could somehow always spawn on the ground i would be happier with them.

i was getting bored of end game, running epl's on ee with garb gear conquesting speed runs and never needing heals on my gimpy heavy repeater pure rog (drow for xtra gimpyness fun ;). most ppls play ranged builds at range.. no no no, not my gimpy hate machine. tbh the build is a abomination with modest gear but it does more with its 1 heroic life and 6 epls than some completionists i have had the misfortune to run with. (i assume these fail completionists are the gripers saying 'the champsd are to much this or that' but what they are really saying is 'CHAMPS HURT MY XP/MIN'.

a few xtra hps to knock off is not a big thing imho. i would like to see a more agressive ai from them and i would like to see more dr on them also. srsly guys if a gimp drow with a repeater and no heroic pl's can drop a ee champ with a few shots it is not tough enough.

the new champ system is holdinh my attention for now but if they get nerfed and start hitting liek normal mobs then what is the point of them in the game at all?? just add more trash mobs for the same efect.

ppls with no tactics will always say this or that is to hard.. ppls with tactics will say give us more pain.

imho if players find the champs in hh/he/eh/ee to much to handle they should examine their use of tactics, gear and their build.

PLS DO NOT NERF THE CHAMPS, MAKE THEM TOUGHER AND MORE RESILIENT. WHEN MY GIMPY ROG KILLS THEM WITH A FEW BOLTS ITS JUST A JOKE WITH MORE LOOT AND NO CHALLENGE

sincearly HoribleScarz of cannith aka Jillad (the bad)

(no spell check fail in the above just a unwillingness to care ' bout gooder engrish;)

[phillymiket]

"Monster Champions no longer spawn in quests below level 5. Quests which are level 3 on Normal would not have Champions on Hard, but would on Elite, since Elite difficulty would bring the quest level to 5."

Awesome news!

I think this is the way to go.

I now totally Flip-Flop and am in support of Champions 100%.

Furthermore I am putting down my rocks and poo-balls and I am officially hopping back on the the DDO cheerleader bandwagon.

[Bladebolt]

OK, I don't know if this happened to anyone else but it is quite funny!

Yesterday as I was experimenting on a built running EE end of the road, after I killed a Champion it started raining tasty hams!
I got about 40 of them....

If it's a bug it is one of the funniest!

[FestusHood]

OK, I don't know if this happened to anyone else but it is quite funny!

Yesterday as I was experimenting on a built running EE end of the road, after I killed a Champion it started raining tasty hams!
I got about 40 of them....

If it's a bug it is one of the funniest!

Colors of the queen past life or shiradi can do that, but rarely.

[Bladebolt]

Colors of the queen past life or shiradi can do that, but rarely.

Well I didn't know that! thank you!

[Zasral]

Champions in their current state are a freaking nightmare in low level heroics, I ran the 3rd part of STK yesterday and there was a Large Earth Elemental who was CR11 (quest is level 6 on Elite) and had over 2,500 HP! The thing hit so hard is was beyond a joke and that is just one instance! I have run across 3-5 champions in the same room with other mobs plus bosses!

I propose the following:

Red and Orange named bosses can not become champions... ever!
If a aforementioned boss is in a room no other monsters can become champions.
Monster groups must consist of at least 4 monsters before a champ can spawn, if one does then it is the ONLY ONE!
Levels 1-10 (approx) need to have the HP cut down in half along with the damage they do.
Overall reduce spawn rates so every corner doesn't have a champion or a multitude thereof!

Stoner81.

100% agree /signed

[count_spicoli]

Champions in their current state are a freaking nightmare in low level heroics, I ran the 3rd part of STK yesterday and there was a Large Earth Elemental who was CR11 (quest is level 6 on Elite) and had over 2,500 HP! The thing hit so hard is was beyond a joke and that is just one instance! I have run across 3-5 champions in the same room with other mobs plus bosses!

I propose the following:

Red and Orange named bosses can not become champions... ever!
If a aforementioned boss is in a room no other monsters can become champions.
Monster groups must consist of at least 4 monsters before a champ can spawn, if one does then it is the ONLY ONE!
Levels 1-10 (approx) need to have the HP cut down in half along with the damage they do.
Overall reduce spawn rates so every corner doesn't have a champion or a multitude thereof!

Stoner81.

Ha ha is this for real. I have done 2 heroic lives and been pounding ee's on my main since champs came out. Other than high end ee's it's hard to tell there even there. They need to go back to pre nerf on elite to make them interesting. Right now they are not even a reason to slow down.

[tangledone]

I just cancelled my vip subscription after 4 and half years with DDO ..... The rampant lag, constant bugs, borks and the ridiculous Champions make playing sometimes impossible and more often unenjoyable ...... I have bought my wife and myself every pack released and have gone from playing at least 4 hours a day to barely 4 hours this week, because soloing is so tedious and slow now (10 quest completions per session down to 2 or 3 per session) it is not fun or challenging just frustrating. I have also noticed there are quite often 1 or 2 lfms when I am able to logon instead of the 6 to 10 so I am not the only one this change is effecting ..... after 1 quest with the changes to champions they are still too hard to solo in a timely manner (4 minutes to defeat 1 champ with 90% damage resistance in a lvl 16 elite quest) Turbine get a grip, the elitists are not the ones funding the game we regular gamers for fun are ....... when it is no longer fun then I will be just one of many that will no longer spend money on the game.

[Sehenry03]

I just cancelled my vip subscription after 4 and half years with DDO ..... The rampant lag, constant bugs, borks and the ridiculous Champions make playing sometimes impossible and more often unenjoyable ...... I have bought my wife and myself every pack released and have gone from playing at least 4 hours a day to barely 4 hours this week, because soloing is so tedious and slow now (10 quest completions per session down to 2 or 3 per session) it is not fun or challenging just frustrating. I have also noticed there are quite often 1 or 2 lfms when I am able to logon instead of the 6 to 10 so I am not the only one this change is effecting ..... after 1 quest with the changes to champions they are still too hard to solo in a timely manner (4 minutes to defeat 1 champ with 90% damage resistance in a lvl 16 elite quest) Turbine get a grip, the elitists are not the ones funding the game we regular gamers for fun are ....... when it is no longer fun then I will be just one of many that will no longer spend money on the game.

*Opens the door and holds it open*

Good luck and thanks for your valuable input!!!!

BTW if you decide you would like to be able to deal with champs maybe ask someone for a little help with your build or gear. As mentioned in many posts before I have helped a LOT of newbies out over the last month and none of them whined about the champs. None of them have many issues now that they know how easy the champs are the deal with.

[bsquishwizzy]

"Monster Champions no longer spawn in quests below level 5. Quests which are level 3 on Normal would not have Champions on Hard, but would on Elite, since Elite difficulty would bring the quest level to 5."

Awesome news!

I think this is the way to go.

I now totally Flip-Flop and am in support of Champions 100%.

Furthermore I am putting down my rocks and poo-balls and I am officially hopping back on the the DDO cheerleader bandwagon.

Yeah, I had some time to think about it, and I think it's a good idea as well. New players in Kothos will avoid these no matter what difficulty they run.

[MisterCanoeHead]

"Monster Champions no longer spawn in quests below level 5. Quests which are level 3 on Normal would not have Champions on Hard, but would on Elite, since Elite difficulty would bring the quest level to 5."

Awesome news!

I think this is the way to go.

I now totally Flip-Flop and am in support of Champions 100%.

Furthermore I am putting down my rocks and poo-balls and I am officially hopping back on the the DDO cheerleader bandwagon.

Good move by Turbine. Anything they can do to retain new players is a step in the right direction.

[count_spicoli]

I just cancelled my vip subscription after 4 and half years with DDO ..... The rampant lag, constant bugs, borks and the ridiculous Champions make playing sometimes impossible and more often unenjoyable ...... I have bought my wife and myself every pack released and have gone from playing at least 4 hours a day to barely 4 hours this week, because soloing is so tedious and slow now (10 quest completions per session down to 2 or 3 per session) it is not fun or challenging just frustrating. I have also noticed there are quite often 1 or 2 lfms when I am able to logon instead of the 6 to 10 so I am not the only one this change is effecting ..... after 1 quest with the changes to champions they are still too hard to solo in a timely manner (4 minutes to defeat 1 champ with 90% damage resistance in a lvl 16 elite quest) Turbine get a grip, the elitists are not the ones funding the game we regular gamers for fun are ....... when it is no longer fun then I will be just one of many that will no longer spend money on the game.

Hold on. You ran into champs on normal? Because obviously running elite there's gonna be big strong guys in there which are way beyond what you can handle. If you ran into them on normal file a bug report. Otherwise carry on.

[Annex]

I just cancelled my vip subscription after 4 and half years with DDO ..... The rampant lag, constant bugs, borks and the ridiculous Champions make playing sometimes impossible and more often unenjoyable ...... I have bought my wife and myself every pack released and have gone from playing at least 4 hours a day to barely 4 hours this week, because soloing is so tedious and slow now (10 quest completions per session down to 2 or 3 per session) it is not fun or challenging just frustrating.

While not a VIP, I also left the game because of Monster Champions. I regret the $200+ I spent on DDO for the three months of play I received, but I also understand and respect why remaining players enjoy them. *shrugs* "User experience may change during game play." With MMO companies I no longer expect consistency, loyalty, or value. In fact, I presume that if I really enjoy a game, the developers will screw it up with the next update. So it goes.

[andreascott89]

Feedback:

In tomb of the tormented, the carcass eaters should never be allowed to spawn as champions.

J

[Emerld]

Just as an FYI:
(Combat): Dragonwing Sorcerer's white dragon breath hit you for a total of 1,063 points of cold damage after 15 were blocked by energy resistance.

This is after things were "reduced." Now, you all will say, it may happen from time to time, or that was just out of the ordinary. What I say is: The party (yes I was in a party) went into the quest (epic hard), and I was popped (killed). We tried to survive the quest but we all ended up wiped. We went back and rebuffed at our ships then, tried the same quest again. I was again popped, just like the first time. Was resurrected, and then popped again the same way.

Does this mean I have to build ALL my toons to have over 1100 hit points in order to play the game? Is that how we are supposed to roll now?

[Qhualor]

Just as an FYI:
(Combat): Dragonwing Sorcerer's white dragon breath hit you for a total of 1,063 points of cold damage after 15 were blocked by energy resistance.

This is after things were "reduced." Now, you all will say, it may happen from time to time, or that was just out of the ordinary. What I say is: The party (yes I was in a party) went into the quest (epic hard), and I was popped (killed). We tried to survive the quest but we all ended up wiped. We went back and rebuffed at our ships then, tried the same quest again. I was again popped, just like the first time. Was resurrected, and then popped again the same way.

Does this mean I have to build ALL my toons to have over 1100 hit points in order to play the game? Is that how we are supposed to roll now?

what build are you?
what tactics did you try to avoid the damage?
what gear do you have to absorb the damage?
did you try a different approach or learn anything from the first time you were popped?

saying you took "X" damage which was more than your hp doesn't provide enough information.

[Ancient]

Just checking in 130 pages later to say I still like champions!

[hp1055cm]

Back playing more this week after a 2 month siesta and got my first taste of Champions on Heroic levels 12 - 16.
ran Gianthold, Necro 4, LOD, Harbinger, Vale, and some other quests on Heroic Elite. 50/50 solo play vs group play.
Overall they seem to be a positive change. Noticed the challenge level slightly higher in a few quests; though nothing I couldn't handle. My main is a multi TR that has few problems playing anything outside EE.

- Sometimes bats, rats or other meaningless trash mobs get a champions crown and it doesn't seem to serve any real purpose.
- If a champion is hiding the crown is still visible and gives them away.
- The loot is pretty meh; more vendor trash is better than nothing maybe but that ain't saying much.
- Didn't see anything on the remnants trade in reward list to make me even want to bother to collect them.


Do champions add any XP to the quest?
Do champions on Hard ever spawn a chest?

[Ancient]

Just as an FYI:
(Combat): Dragonwing Sorcerer's white dragon breath hit you for a total of 1,063 points of cold damage after 15 were blocked by energy resistance.

This is after things were "reduced." Now, you all will say, it may happen from time to time, or that was just out of the ordinary. What I say is: The party (yes I was in a party) went into the quest (epic hard), and I was popped (killed). We tried to survive the quest but we all ended up wiped. We went back and rebuffed at our ships then, tried the same quest again. I was again popped, just like the first time. Was resurrected, and then popped again the same way.

Does this mean I have to build ALL my toons to have over 1100 hit points in order to play the game? Is that how we are supposed to roll now?

I can understand not having fire shield + mrr + shiradi energy absorbtion to reduce that down to 200 and something hps... but how are you in epic hard and only have 15 points of cold damage resistance?

[Emerld]

I can understand not having fire shield + mrr + shiradi energy absorbtion to reduce that down to 200 and something hps... but how are you in epic hard and only have 15 points of cold damage resistance?

I got popped once before, then rez'ed. the party was wiped while i just got back up to full health, then the sorc turned around and one shotted me again.

So for those who think the spell casting is random?... hmm... one shotted me, in about 20 seconds, sprayed and killed rest of party, then turned around and one shotted me again.

[Sehenry03]

Champions in their current state are a freaking nightmare in low level heroics, I ran the 3rd part of STK yesterday and there was a Large Earth Elemental who was CR11 (quest is level 6 on Elite) and had over 2,500 HP! The thing hit so hard is was beyond a joke and that is just one instance! I have run across 3-5 champions in the same room with other mobs plus bosses!

I propose the following:

Red and Orange named bosses can not become champions... ever!
If a aforementioned boss is in a room no other monsters can become champions.
Monster groups must consist of at least 4 monsters before a champ can spawn, if one does then it is the ONLY ONE!
Levels 1-10 (approx) need to have the HP cut down in half along with the damage they do.
Overall reduce spawn rates so every corner doesn't have a champion or a multitude thereof!

Stoner81.

Just an FYI...pretty sure STK3 is a lvl 5 quest so on Elite would be a lvl 7. A CR11 mob would be 4 levels higher which is really not that unreasonable. Sucks it was the elly though but it happens. Trip and kill.

[Ancient]

I got popped once before, then rez'ed. the party was wiped while i just got back up to full health, then the sorc turned around and one shotted me again.

So for those who think the spell casting is random?... hmm... one shotted me, in about 20 seconds, sprayed and killed rest of party, then turned around and one shotted me again.

It is a big number, but the fact that it is cold damage means that those big numbers can be reduced by large amounts.

Fireshield cuts it in half
MRR applies
http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Cold_Absorption_items
I *think* it has a save, so the heavy/tower shield bonus applies

My NovaSoul build has so much fire absorption that I can stand on the flames in EE von5 or EE prove your worth and be fully healed by my palemaster aura. The fact that kind of defense is possible means the developers have to have some big damage numbers to get through it... Which can be rough when those numbers hit someone without those defenses.

[JOTMON]

and this is why I hate the BS of Champions with Ignore fortification.
I can work with a high fort bypass that was the point of investing into a higher fortification, to survive those sneaky assassination attempts..
a random wandering wolf gets a champion crown , trip. dead.
This is the kind of BS that must end. a trash champion that does more damage than the red named end boss.

My 285% fortification is completely worthless as I get popped for 825 points of crit damage. from a stupid trash roving wolf with a champion crown in a level 24 quest.
What is the point of investing into Fortification when random Champions can just ignore it completely.
Are The Dev's telling us we should just say screw fortification and invest into becoming meatsacks of HP .. I used to think 900hp was enough for a wizard.

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r671/JOTMON/ScreenShot00606b_zps70895311.jpg~original

[Monkey-Boy]

and this is why I hate the BS of Champions with Ignore fortification.
I can work with a high fort bypass that was the point of investing into a higher fortification, to survive those sneaky assassination attempts..
a random wandering wolf gets a champion crown , trip. dead.
This is the kind of BS that must end. a trash champion that does more damage than the red named end boss.

My 285% fortification is completely worthless as I get popped for 825 points of crit damage. from a stupid trash roving wolf with a champion crown in a level 24 quest.
What is the point of investing into Fortification when random Champions can just ignore it completely.
Are The Dev's telling us we should just say screw fortification and invest into becoming meatsacks of HP .. I used to think 900hp was enough for a wizard.


And this is why Champions are dumb.

Why keep shoving this terrible idea down our throats?

[Ancient]

My 285% fortification is completely worthless as I get popped for 825 points of crit damage. from a stupid trash roving wolf with a champion crown in a level 24 quest.
What is the point of investing into Fortification when random Champions can just ignore it completely.
Are The Dev's telling us we should just say screw fortification and invest into becoming meatsacks of HP .. I used to think 900hp was enough for a wizard.

PRR 17 is the equivalent of what used to be running with zero fortification.

[Qhualor]

and this is why I hate the BS of Champions with Ignore fortification.
I can work with a high fort bypass that was the point of investing into a higher fortification, to survive those sneaky assassination attempts..
a random wandering wolf gets a champion crown , trip. dead.
This is the kind of BS that must end. a trash champion that does more damage than the red named end boss.

My 285% fortification is completely worthless as I get popped for 825 points of crit damage. from a stupid trash roving wolf with a champion crown in a level 24 quest.
What is the point of investing into Fortification when random Champions can just ignore it completely.
Are The Dev's telling us we should just say screw fortification and invest into becoming meatsacks of HP .. I used to think 900hp was enough for a wizard.

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r671/JOTMON/ScreenShot00606b_zps70895311.jpg~original

this may or may not be the confusion with Champions, but wolves are able to sneak attack which means... math that I cant figure out with 285% fort. so heres the link and the info im talking about.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Fortification

Bypassing Fortification

Since Update 13, monsters with sneak attack dice are able to bypass some of the player fortification equal to monsters' Challenge Rating. E.g.:
If a CR 1 Kobold Sneak attacks someone with 50% fortification, the Kobold Sneak has a 51% chance to normally conduct a critical hit or sneak attack.
If a CR 20 Lava Mephit attacks someone with 100% fortification, the Lava Mephit has a 20% chance to normally conduct a critical hit or sneak attack.
If a CR 54 Sellsword Footpad attacks someone with 150% fortification, the Sellsword Footpad has a 4% chance to normally conduct a critical hit or sneak attack.
If a CR 29 Earth Elemental attacks someone with 125% fortification, it is still going to have a 0% chance to critically hit or sneak attack, as it has no sneak attack dice

[Ayseifn]

What is the point of investing into Fortification when random Champions can just ignore it completely.
Are The Dev's telling us we should just say screw fortification and invest into becoming meatsacks of HP .. I used to think 900hp was enough for a wizard.


I just wish the ones with fort bypass had a different colour crown or something, I like it though as it's equally rough on everyone. You can dump fortification if you want to, but you'll start getting crit in raids and by non champs too so I wouldn't advise it.

[JOTMON]

PRR 17 is the equivalent of what used to be running with zero fortification.

It is a declining scale of benefit , 17Prr is a bit more than 15% damage reduction...
This means that that wolf's initial damage was around 1,000 hit points mitigated by my 5 DR and 15% Damage reduction from 17% PRR to get to the 825 damage that ultimately killed me.
Currently running TR lives, so don't have my endgame gear to equip to boost my PRR. optimal is in the 90-100 range for 47-50 damage reduction.. after that the declining returns hit pretty heavily.
Still going to take a lot of ETR lives to get myself into the higher end of PRR on a PJ caster..




this may or may not be the confusion with Champions, but wolves are able to sneak attack which means... math that I cant figure out with 285% fort. so heres the link and the info im talking about.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Fortification

Bypassing Fortification
~snip~

There is no confusion.

1. Fortification bypass is based on the CR of the mob if they are capable of bypassing fort/sneak attacks.. so the CR 42 wolf could bypass fortification of 142
.. nowhere near being able to break my 285% fortification.. that would take a CR185 mob.

2. Ignore Fortification
Champions have a pretty good chance of getting the Misc buff of Fortification Bypass - Ignores All Fortification .

[Qhualor]

There is no confusion.

1. Fortification bypass is based on the CR of the mob if they are capable of bypassing fort/sneak attacks.. so the CR 42 wolf could bypass fortification of 142
.. nowhere near being able to break my 285% fortification.. that would take a CR185 mob.

2. Ignore Fortification
Champions have a pretty good chance of chance of getting the Misc buff of Fortification Bypass - Ignores All Fortification .

this is where PRR comes in handy and any other ways to absorb damage. I don't know what kind of wizard you play, but if you are going to be close to mobs with a low PRR than you are going to get hit hard when mobs are able to bypass your blur and displacement. doing it just for past life or no past life.

I will say the same thing I said many months ago when we were able to stack fortification over 100%, however, that its just stupid to get to the point where you actually need more than 150%. I don't see any reason why we should have anymore more than that.

[fmalfeas]

This would be the golden opportunity for them to make 'the forbidden feat' actually usable. Make it actually do what it /says/ it does. Make Improved Fortification actually render you immune to SA and Crit. As is, as far as I can tell from testing, all it does is give you 100% fort, at a cost of a feat, and total immunity to all positive energy healing...making it pretty wretched. But if it worked like it says it does, the Fortification Bypass buff wouldn't work against an Improved Fort forged.

[JonasSimbaca]

I've been playing since shortly after DDO was released. I've been a paying client and VIP the entire time. I've taken every bug and questionable developer decision in stride because the game always entertained me.

Champions have broken that. They do not make the game more fun for me. I am playing less than 1/2 as often as I used to.

I like to be well equipped and prepared for the dungeon I'm going in. I like to think things though, solve puzzles and progress. I don't want to be one-shotted in Tangleroot for over 250 points of scorching ray from a stealthed caster in the corner of a room.

I select the difficulty level based on what I'm likely to face in the dungeon, hard or elite.

I am a well-equipped completionist/epic completionist and almost iconic completionist. It doesn't matter, I still get one-shotted by some random monster that has 10x the firepower of anything else around it. That's just stupid.

To those who say "get better equipment" - I have it all.

To those who say "play smarter, you lack skill" - I've been playing longer than many of you and I'm good at this game.

To those who say "play at a lower difficulty" - I don't want to just one-shot everything on normal and I don't want to be one-shotted on hard. There is no longer anything in between mind-numbingly easy and ridiculously difficult.

To those who say "group up" - I ran all of Wheloon and and all of the Stormhorns quests with an LFM up, no one joined on Thelanis the entire morning.

I'll still play when friends want to, but I've got better things to do than run the same quest three times until the outrageous champion randomness comes up in my favor.

[Ancient]

It is a declining scale of benefit , 17Prr is a bit more than 15% damage reduction...
This means that that wolf's initial damage was around 1,000 hit points mitigated by my 5 DR and 15% Damage reduction from 17% PRR to get to the 825 damage that ultimately killed me.
Currently running TR lives, so don't have my endgame gear to equip to boost my PRR. optimal is in the 90-100 range for 47-50 damage reduction.. after that the declining returns hit pretty heavily.
That "declining returns" is repeated a lot, but it is mathematically false. It is based on the flawed assumption that every percentage point of damage reduction is the same. This is easily shown to be false.

* going from 99% to 100% damage reduction is an infinite increase (because it is 1% damage to zero).
* going from 98 to 99% damage decreases your incoming damage by 50% (because it is 2% damage to 1%).
* going from 97 to 99% damage reduction decreases your incoming damage by 33% (because it is 3% to 2%)

Each point of PRR reduces your incoming damage by the same percentage (what was incoming after the previous one). The survival increase is the same. One more way to explain it:

If you have 100 hitpoints.
* One hit for 100 will kill you.
* Two hits for 50 will kill you.
* Three hits for 33 1/3 will kill you.
* Four hits for 25 will kill you
* Five hits for 20 will kill you.

To survive one more hit (from one to two) took a 50 point damage reduction.
To survive one more hit (from four to five) only took a 5 point damage reduction.

Every point of PRR is just as valuable as the last one.

Still going to take a lot of ETR lives to get myself into the higher end of PRR on a PJ caster..

Really?
Because I thought for sure you could get 10 PRR from EK.
I thought you could equip a skyvault tower shield with zero arcane spell failure... even a heroic one.
I thought you could get 24 PRR just from a guardian ring... even a heroic one.

It isn't tank quality PRR, but it is pretty easy to do better than 17.

[Vellrad]

You should invest into spot, so you can see champ from afar and then hypno+hold or whatever to stop it.

[phillymiket]

You should invest into spot, so you can see champ from afar and then hypno+hold or whatever to stop it.

That or something.

Champions have had a nerf and then another and also been removed from lv 5 and lower quests plus they are working on other refinements.

Even though I have argued against them ( I still feel they are just a cheap and ineffective way to avoid a proper balance effort) i must admit a good deal of compromise has been offered by the Dev's on this one.

What you now have to do is think about who is likely to be the 'killer Champ"?

In tangle root that is clearly going to be Hob Casters and maybe the Prince Spiders.

Ogre Champs and Doggies wont one-shot very readily.

Then just plan for that worst case.

I admit, it's really hard to plan around 250 points of fire damage at that level but that's really on the outer edge of what you will see for damage (at least by my observations - I've taken 3 TRs though Tamgleroot post Champs).

But you certainly can plan for surviving almost all Champ scorchers.

You also might want to do some old school things, like open that shrine door by the prison cells in case you get zapped, or pull back the visible melee because you know there are always casters in the mob pack then go after the casters after. Or even park a healer by the enterence just in case.

But bottom line is if dude isn't feeling the game anymore with Champs then that's how that is.

[JOTMON]

That "declining returns" is repeated a lot, but it is mathematically false. It is based on the flawed assumption that every percentage point of damage reduction is the same. This is easily shown to be false.

* going from 99% to 100% damage reduction is an infinite increase (because it is 1% damage to zero).
* going from 98 to 99% damage decreases your incoming damage by 50% (because it is 2% damage to 1%).
* going from 97 to 99% damage reduction decreases your incoming damage by 33% (because it is 3% to 2%)

Each point of PRR reduces your incoming damage by the same percentage (what was incoming after the previous one). The survival increase is the same. One more way to explain it:



How is this Mathimatically false? The line definitely curves to the right..
http://ddowiki.com/page/Physical_Resistance_Rating
http://ddowiki.com/images/PRRGraph.png

Every point invested in PRR is less Damage reduction the forumula is designed to give declining returns. (100/(100+PRR)

10 PRR gives 9% reduction
25 PRR gives 20% reduction
50 PRR gives 33% reduction
75 PRR gives 43% reduction
100PRR gives 50% reduction
150PRR gives 60% reduction
200PRR gives 67% reduction


Your representation of Damage reduction is just BS numbers that have no useful representation and accordingly not relevant.

98-100% Damage reduction isn't achieveable in the game.
98% damage reduction would require a PRR of 3900
99% Damage reduction would require PRR of 6567
100% Damage reduction would require PRR of 19,900 (assuming it rounds up)



The survival increase is the same. One more way to explain it:

If you have 100 hitpoints.
* One hit for 100 will kill you.
* Two hits for 50 will kill you.
* Three hits for 33 1/3 will kill you.
* Four hits for 25 will kill you
* Five hits for 20 will kill you.

To survive one more hit (from one to two) took a 50 point damage reduction.
To survive one more hit (from four to five) only took a 5 point damage reduction.

Every point of PRR is just as valuable as the last one.




even here you are skewing numbers of irrelevance.

Reducing damage from 100 to 50 requires 100 PRR.
Reducing from 100 to 33 1/3 requires a PRR of 200.
Reducing it to 25 requires a PRR of 273
Reducing it to 20 requires a PRR of 388


My relevant in game example.
The wolf hit me for 1,000 points of damage reduced by my DR of 5 and my PRR 17 reduction of 15% for recordable damage of 825 points of damage.
My wizard has 919HP so effectively I was hit for 90% of my Hp.

To survive two hits I would need a PRR of 116 which would be pretty tough to achieve on a level 27 evasion Wizard/Rogue.
To survive 3 hits I would need a PRR of 224.

I am also assuming you do not expect every caster and evasion toon in the game to re-roll and become heavy armor wearing builds focussed on only PRR at the expense of everything else.

Also Keep in mind level relevance.
Shadowscale and any other level 28 endgame items are not relevant because this is a level 24ish quest.. not endgame.






Really?
Because I thought for sure you could get 10 PRR from EK.
I thought you could equip a skyvault tower shield with zero arcane spell failure... even a heroic one.
I thought you could get 24 PRR just from a guardian ring... even a heroic one.

It isn't tank quality PRR, but it is pretty easy to do better than 17.

Equipping a shield negates my evasion and removes a spell focus weapon/or staff bonuses. so that doesn't work.

adding 10 PRR from EK would increase me to 21%reduction (from15%) (don't know if this stackswith the PRR from my Lich stance Palemaster enhancements.)
8AP cost has to come from other investments.
So I would lose 5 points from Shadar-Kai- 1 Int (potentially a DC) shadow phase/jaunt (so lose a ethereal burst and way to become unstuck when trapped),
and lose 3 from Harper - basically just the 20 SP since Toughenss and Universal spell power I recover in EK.


Ring slots are tough to give up. lose a green slot for a yellow
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Eye_of_the_Beholder
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Lantern_Ring
I could probably work in a Augment of PRR 14 that would get me an additional damage reduction of 9%

That still only gets me to the low 40's range of PRR which gives me a Damage Reduction of about 30%.
While yes it is better than the 15%, its not relatively any better than my current setup when the wolf has crit output damage of 1,000HP and can ignore any and all fortification.

I am still dead in two hits or less.
Relatively speaking the scaled up roving wolf is trivial compared to higher level content mobs that can actually land a solid hit with scaled Crit profiles..

The champions themselves I have no issue with, the ability for random champions to completely ignore fortification is what I find disconcerting.

[JOTMON]

You should invest into spot, so you can see champ from afar and then hypno+hold or whatever to stop it.

I have spot invested( I am a wiz/rogue trapper), but spot would have done nothing , I know the wolves were there and had setup the aoe for them

I had cast Otto's dancing ball for the incoming 2 champions and rest of the pack of regular wolves, most of the wolves danced,
First champion I insta-killed but the 2nd champion tripped me and 1-shot killed me before the CC hit him even though it was within the cc area.
it was also death warded to the insta-kill I tried to throw at it before it killed me.. which is quite difficult to identify beforehand.

The same champion wolf also sayed aggro'd on my dead self as I ran to the shrine to rez completely ingnoring the other two players in the party.
What ever happened to losing aggro when you encapped/died..

[Powerhungry]

and this is why I hate the BS of Champions with Ignore fortification.
I can work with a high fort bypass that was the point of investing into a higher fortification, to survive those sneaky assassination attempts..
a random wandering wolf gets a champion crown , trip. dead.
This is the kind of BS that must end. a trash champion that does more damage than the red named end boss.

My 285% fortification is completely worthless as I get popped for 825 points of crit damage. from a stupid trash roving wolf with a champion crown in a level 24 quest.
What is the point of investing into Fortification when random Champions can just ignore it completely.
Are The Dev's telling us we should just say screw fortification and invest into becoming meatsacks of HP .. I used to think 900hp was enough for a wizard.

http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r671/JOTMON/ScreenShot00606b_zps70895311.jpg~original

Instead of ignoring all fortification, it should either ignore the first 100% of fortification - or fort bypass and critical hits should be mutually exclusive (if it ignores fort, it cannot crit).

[Monkey-Boy]

Instead of ignoring all fortification, it should either ignore the first 100% of fortification - or fort bypass and critical hits should be mutually exclusive (if it ignores fort, it cannot crit).

Fort bypass is acceptable.

Ignoring all fort is utterly stupid.

[Ancient]

Every point invested in PRR is less Damage reduction the forumula is designed to give declining returns. (100/(100+PRR)

And you missed my point that each additional percentage point of damage reduction is worth MORE than the previous one.

Your counter point about why your equipment is so precious that you cannot swap it in even for a special situation speaks only to your inability to adapt to survive. In upper level content, I do have to be careful around champions... and that is a good thing.

You are free to tell me that my numbers are bs.... but I'm not the one getting one-shotted by champions.

[Ancient]

even here you are skewing numbers of irrelevance.

Reducing damage from 100 to 50 requires 100 PRR.
Reducing from 100 to 33 1/3 requires a PRR of 200.
Reducing it to 25 requires a PRR of 273
Reducing it to 20 requires a PRR of 388

Using your numbers...

It takes 100 PRR to survive one more hit
It took 100 additional PRR to survive two more hits
It took 73 additional PRR to survive three more hits
It took 115 additional PRR to survive four more hits.

Pretty dang close to a straight line. The curve down in percentage damage reduction is offset by the increased value of each additional point of damage reduction.

[Ancient]

I have spot invested( I am a wiz/rogue trapper), but spot would have done nothing , I know the wolves were there and had setup the aoe for them

I had cast Otto's dancing ball for the incoming 2 champions and rest of the pack of regular wolves, most of the wolves danced,
First champion I insta-killed but the 2nd champion tripped me and 1-shot killed me before the CC hit him even though it was within the cc area.
it was also death warded to the insta-kill I tried to throw at it before it killed me.. which is quite difficult to identify beforehand.

You can swap gear with a hot key. If you have the disco ball up, you might consider swapping to a shield/other defensive gear until the CC kicks in and you can kill them at your leisure. You don't have to do this every time, just against mobs that seem to have your number like a tripping wolf. Alternatively, you could focus less on trying to get off quick instakills and more on jump kiting or other defensive maneuvers.

[JOTMON]

And you missed my point that each additional percentage point of damage reduction is worth MORE than the previous one.

Your counter point about why your equipment is so precious that you cannot swap it in even for a special situation speaks only to your inability to adapt to survive. In upper level content, I do have to be careful around champions... and that is a good thing.

You are free to tell me that my numbers are bs.... but I'm not the one getting one-shotted by champions.

I understand your point, I am saying it wasn't relevant.
A champion is not a special situation, it is commonplace, swapping in heavy armor and a shield everytime I see a champion is not conducive to the build.
If it was I wouldn't be playing an evasion build I would be playing a tank build.

My issue is with champions that can ignore fortification.
How does your Nova build stand up to 2 back to back swipes from a fortification ignoring champion of 1k damage each along with a spattering of 100 hp's of damage from regular mobs. in the level 24 range.. not endgame.
How does your PRR hold up against 2400ish incoming damage before you can cast heal.

and your reference comparison numbers are BS, when you can demonstrate a build that has 3900 PRR for your example of 98% damage reduction then I will concede this point.

[JOTMON]

You can swap gear with a hot key. If you have the disco ball up, you might consider swapping to a shield/other defensive gear until the CC kicks in and you can kill them at your leisure. You don't have to do this every time, just against mobs that seem to have your number like a tripping wolf. Alternatively, you could focus less on trying to get off quick instakills and more on jump kiting or other defensive maneuvers.

Only a small percentage of champions will have the Ignore fort option 10% or less in my experience.
So the overall percentage chance is generally low.
and its not like we have minutes to target the mob, select examine and check to see if every champion may or may not have the ignore fort buff before engaging.

I don't see how defensive gear will help in this situation regardless of the minor bump in PRR..
also have to consider you are losing dodge bonus due to equipping shield/armor
These mobs are ignoring fortification all together. so unless you can maintain high HP and high PRR along with decent heals then it becomes pointless.

Quick insta-kills are useful. a dead mob does no damage... Clerics like dead mobs that don't hit people,,.. less healing required
same for CC.. melee like cc.. melee do not like chasing a pew-pewer around the dungeon trailing mobs in their wake.

So this is just going to promote the ranged keep-a-way builds and kiting casting waiting for that big random shirardi proc..
Is this the direction the game wants to go, eliminate tanks and toe to toe builds and play runaway pew-pew-ers.
.

[Ancient]

How does your Nova build stand up to 2 back to back swipes from a fortification ignoring champion of 1k damage each along with a spattering of 100 hp's of damage from regular mobs. in the level 24 range.. not endgame.
I play in heavy armor (ada body actually) with a tower shield AND avoid getting hit, especially when there is a champion around. In addition, death aura keeps me near max health. I'm not uber raid soloing superman like many posters (whom I hold in very high regard). In fact, I don't even consider myself that great a player... I have to rely a lot on having a build that can survive the mistakes I make. But you don't have to take my word for it, I post EE videos on a regular basis. The last two EE videos I posted were just after champions were introduced and before they got nerfed.

All that said, I am now curious if the immunity to critical hits feat stops fortification bypass... giving up positive healing wouldn't exactly be much of a worry for me :)

So this is just going to promote the ranged keep-a-way builds and kiting casting.
Is this the direction the game wants to go, eliminate tanks and toe to toe builds and play runaway pew-pew-ers.
If you want to wear pajamas then you can't act like a toe to toe tank. If you want to act like a toe-to-toe tank, then you need to modify either your build or your gear. I don't see the problem. The "real" toe-to-toe tanks now have way more than 1000 hp.

[JOTMON]

I play in heavy armor with a tower shield AND avoid getting hit, especially when there is a champion around. In addition, death aura keeps me near max health. I'm not uber raid soloing superman like many posters (whom I hold in very high regard). In fact, I don't even consider myself that great a player... I have to rely a lot on having a build that can survive the mistakes I make. But you don't have to take my word for it, I post EE videos on a regular basis. The last two EE videos I posted were just after champions were introduced and before they got nerfed.

All that said, I am now curious if the immunity to critical hits feat stops fortification bypass... giving up positive healing wouldn't exactly be much of a worry for me :)

If you want to wear pajamas then you can't act like a toe to toe tank. If you want to act like a toe-to-toe tank, then you need to modify either your build or your gear. I don't see the problem. The "real" toe-to-toe tanks now have way more than 1000 hp.


The Improved fortification: Improves your warforged fortification, granting you immunity to sneak attacks and extra damage from critical hits. However, you lose the ability to be healed by spells from the healing subschool, such as Cure Light Wounds.

Would make converting to Bladeforged (or the now lesser Warforged) more appealing... but does anyone know if this actually works against the Champions that ignore fortification.

Generally I am ghostly/ethereal/displaced/high dodge.. constantly moving with CC and AOE from Draconic when insta-kills are not effective.
It should be a good counter point to an armored tank build and normally is.
now when I get back to endgame I run over 1khp and better PRR/overall damage mitigation... but that is endgame,.. not xp farming..

I am looking at my build which is generally quite solid in all content and levels.. when I see myself getting one-shotted in level 24 content on a level 27 toon..
It doesn't bode well for most players.
not to say I don't die.. a lot.. but this is generally due to inattention, or trying to push that last spell before heading back to a shrine, or starting a fight that really should have been avoided or prepped in advance..

[Vargouille]

We're continuing to monitor Champions and will keep making adjustments. We want them to threaten player characters, but generally should not be one-shotting most characters in most situations. There are some individual cases we may still need to investigate. Thanks for the continued feedback.

[EllisDee37]

I have steadfastly been a huge supporter of champions, and liked it much better at launch when there were way more of them. (Just for context.)

Big fan of the change that "moved" the True Seeing champion buff over to See Invisibility, since that has the same effect against invisi-zerging (which is a good thing) but it no longer bypasses a legitimate, non-cheese player defense. (Concealment.)

Similarly, I have to agree with JOTMON. Fortification is a legitimate, non-cheese player defense. Mobs should not be able to simply ignore it. The change from a couple years ago when sneaky mobs could bypass x% based on mob CR was a great change, but giving any mobs a blanket "ignore fortification" buff is total cheese. Uncool.

[count_spicoli]

We're continuing to monitor Champions and will keep making adjustments. We want them to threaten player characters, but generally should not be one-shotting most characters in most situations. There are some individual cases we may still need to investigate. Thanks for the continued feedback.

Right now they are not threatening player characters in heroic AT ALL! On upper level ee like stormhorns you Def need to pay attention but are not really that bad either. With every gimp tripping and stunning now it has really reduced their threat. I really wish you would go back to pre nerf on elite and leave hard and lowered as is.

[Sehenry03]

Right now they are not threatening player characters in heroic AT ALL! On upper level ee like stormhorns you Def need to pay attention but are not really that bad either. With every gimp tripping and stunning now it has really reduced their threat. I really wish you would go back to pre nerf on elite and leave hard and lowered as is.

+1

[FestusHood]

All that said, I am now curious if the immunity to critical hits feat stops fortification bypass... giving up positive healing wouldn't exactly be much of a worry for me :)


I would be pretty surprised if it did anything but provide 100% fort. It was made at a time when there was no fort bypass.

Remember, undead and constructs are described as being immune to critical hits, but we can now crit those all the time. There is even an explanation as to why they are immune, not having vital spots to hit. Not sure how having fort bypass suddenly makes them have vital organs, but whatever.

[HatsuharuZ]

When running "The Portal Opens", I noticed that some of the statues in the halls of the temple were crowned as champions. However, unlike other statues, these one never went hostile. Same thing with the kobold slaves in Shan-To-Kor.

[Ancient]

Similarly, I have to agree with JOTMON. Fortification is a legitimate, non-cheese player defense. Mobs should not be able to simply ignore it. The change from a couple years ago when sneaky mobs could bypass x% based on mob CR was a great change, but giving any mobs a blanket "ignore fortification" buff is total cheese. Uncool.

I'm in the middle. I don't like the ignore fortification buff, BUT, I do think that pajama wearers should be very nervous around a pack of champion melee mobs... and ignore fort seems to be the only item that accomplishes this. Thus, I'm in the middle on removing it because without it... champions aren't even a speed bump for most casters.

[Braegan]

Similarly, I have to agree with JOTMON. Fortification is a legitimate, non-cheese player defense. Mobs should not be able to simply ignore it. The change from a couple years ago when sneaky mobs could bypass x% based on mob CR was a great change, but giving any mobs a blanket "ignore fortification" buff is total cheese. Uncool.

I can agree instead of a Blanket Ignore all Fort, that Champ mobs be given Armor Piercing %.

EE/HE mobs should have a higher percentage. As well it can be scaled to level. A level 5 character is likely to have mod fort, whereas a level 28 character would be around 150 to over 200.

Perhaps a formula like:

HH/EH: Armor Piercing 50% + 2 % per level of the dungeon. A level 5 quest Champ would get 60% Fort Bypass, a level 30 quest would get 110% Bypass.

HE/EE: Armor Piercing 75% +5% per level of the dungeon. A level 5 quest Champ would get 100% Fort Bypass, a level 30 quest would get 225% Bypass.

Numbers of course could be tweaked but used as an example to show what I was thinking.

[MonadRebelion]

I'm in the middle. I don't like the ignore fortification buff, BUT, I do think that pajama wearers should be very nervous around a pack of champion melee mobs... and ignore fort seems to be the only item that accomplishes this. Thus, I'm in the middle on removing it because without it... champions aren't even a speed bump for most casters.

Not at all on the fence here. Champions should have abilities that make them threatening. Casters getting one shot killed by powerful melees is dnd. Casters unafraid of being toe-to-toe with melees is some other kind of game I don't want to play.

Note: This isn't to say there shouldn't be melee "caster" at all. It's just to say that such a build should be exceptional, rely on clever/tricky building, and not have the casting ability of a straight caster.

[EllisDee37]

I can agree instead of a Blanket Ignore all Fort, that Champ mobs be given Armor Piercing %.

EE/HE mobs should have a higher percentage. As well it can be scaled to level. A level 5 character is likely to have mod fort, whereas a level 28 character would be around 150 to over 200.

Perhaps a formula like:

HH/EH: Armor Piercing 50% + 2 % per level of the dungeon. A level 5 quest Champ would get 60% Fort Bypass, a level 30 quest would get 110% Bypass.

HE/EE: Armor Piercing 75% +5% per level of the dungeon. A level 5 quest Champ would get 100% Fort Bypass, a level 30 quest would get 225% Bypass.

Numbers of course could be tweaked but used as an example to show what I was thinking.I wouldn't want to go much above the current heroic fort bypass scaling.

Mob CR as the % chance to bypass feels about right to me. How about just give ALL champions the "sneaky" flag so that all of them can bypass a % of fort equal to their CR.

[Braegan]

I wouldn't want to go much above the current heroic fort bypass scaling.

Mob CR as the % chance to bypass feels about right to me. How about just give ALL champions the "sneaky" flag so that all of them can bypass a % of fort equal to their CR.

That could work as well. I just plugged in numbers to show what I was thinking.

But I think either system (provided the numbers got to be tested some) would be an improvement. Some way to give champs a means to bypass fort that increases with level and difficulty.

[Rys]

EE WGU, 39 PRR ;)

http://i.imgur.com/KpXgsfO.jpg

[Braegan]

That's right, they were bad enough already...

and that only emphasizes the point...tone down the champs and get rid of them from low level content. After years of working on a toon i have earned the right to play elite content at low lvl with little difficulty. My 3rd life was difficult enough with plenty of challenge to scrape thru elite content with my partner and 2 hirelings. Just before Champions came along, my partner and i were making steady work of elite content with plenty of challenges along the way not needing 2 hirelings anymore most of the time. I earned that thru grinding gear and buying tomes from the store to beef up my toon. That being said, being one shot is not a challenge. I say put another lvl of dungeon out there for the peeps who love this new addition to the game or make champs an option. These peeps who complained the content wasn't hard enough have forgotten what it is like to build a toon from scratch with no twinking involved and having to claw there way thru dungeons with loot gen gear and no tomes. The balance was right on there. Now I need twice the HP that i cannot get to have a chance of surviving. So i call bulls--t.

Mhmm.

Well they did get rid of champs in low level content. They don't exist below level 5. So that's a moot point unless you wish to debate what constitutes as low level.

I question your phrasing of "earned it," there again that sense of entitlement rears its head.

Being one shot is a challenge, so I disagree with you. It's not like there are not a bunch of ways to render a mob unable to fight back. I guess mindflayers in general are also cheap because they can blast you and suck out your brain while you do nothing...kinda like a slow motion one shot. :) Also, to clarify by your statement. You were not one shot. You were three shot. I see no problem in game mechanics where you went up to an elite champ mob at level and he hit you three times and laid you down.

I haven't forgotten what it was like to start anew in the game. I've done it twice, seriously - a few other servers for fun, but once when game launched and once when Cannith server launched. And I still am in favor of champs. They reduce the roflstomp thru quests and bring back some of what the game used to have, a nice fight that required at least 40% of your attention to the game.

You don't need twice the HP. You could try tripping the Ogre next time, I hear it works fabulously well atm. Mayhaps a stun blow/fist, a well placed Charm, oh my I could just go on and on...

[Qhualor]

put a worthy challenge in front of a player after several years of face rolling content by most on the hardest difficulty and they don't know what to do when there is alternative methods available.

[Braegan]

put a worthy challenge in front of a player after several years of face rolling content by most on the hardest difficulty and they don't know what to do when there is alternative methods available.

You mean there are more buttons than W and right mouse click?!?!!?

Burn this witch!

[Sehenry03]

How long did it take for most people to adapt to champions? 1 day? 1 week? 1 month? I got slaughtered in Proof is in the Poison the first week of champs before the nerf. **** casters kept double bolting me for over 200 damage and it happened 5-6 times that 1 run. I STILL want the original champs back though because I did have to start thinking. Now its almost back to the same old roll everything content with 1-2 exceptions in a quest when you see a champ caster/ogre/mind flayer/etc and all you do is trip/stun/charm/etc but you barely slow down. I ran Proof is in the Poison with the same toon after I Tr'ed a few days ago and I didn't even come close to dying 1 times again. Same exact quest and same exact toon with same exact gear. I miss the old champs =(

[Braegan]

How long did it take for most people to adapt to champions? 1 day? 1 week? 1 month? I got slaughtered in Proof is in the Poison the first week of champs before the nerf. **** casters kept double bolting me for over 200 damage and it happened 5-6 times that 1 run. I STILL want the original champs back though because I did have to start thinking. Now its almost back to the same old roll everything content with 1-2 exceptions in a quest when you see a champ caster/ogre/mind flayer/etc and all you do is trip/stun/charm/etc but you barely slow down. I ran Proof is in the Poison with the same toon after I Tr'ed a few days ago and I didn't even come close to dying 1 times again. Same exact quest and same exact toon with same exact gear. I miss the old champs =(

For me, less than a day.

Not meant to sound elitist or anything, but my characters were build to handle a variety of things, often going against the FoTM grain. I had some shaky encounters where I went thru a lot of mana and had to readjust, but it came quickly to me. My fighter experienced much less pains to transition as he is used to using tactics and healing himself.

To be honest, I do understand that some folks feel a certain way about not being able to kick in the door like they were Billy Bad Azz and getting into every mobs face like they were Samuel L. Jackson demanding that they say "what" one more time so they could go full postal on them.

But really how long can you do that before it gets old. I mean sure, when I was four I loved playing the game "I win." But since then a bit of a challenge is nice. And now that champs are reduced in power it's not as much as it was. I mean I want some cool epic fights like Achilles and Hector fighting outside the gate of Troy kind of stuff. That to me is fun, to play off every angle my character is built for versus something else that is equally dangerous.

I think now the spawn rate for champs is about right, now we should beef them back up a bit. Perhaps revisit the Ignore all Fort thingy and some other tweaks, but overall champs need a buff.

Hmm. All this has gotten me thinking. I wonder if all the mobs I one shotted today using Energy Burst are currently complaining that player characters are OP and need to be tuned down because being truly one shot isn't fair to them. ;)

[tangledone]

Right now they are not threatening player characters in heroic AT ALL! On upper level ee like stormhorns you Def need to pay attention but are not really that bad either. With every gimp tripping and stunning now it has really reduced their threat. I really wish you would go back to pre nerf on elite and leave hard and lowered as is.

If this were true I would not have cancelled my VIP subscription.

The answer is simple 1. Get rid of the Champions from heroic level quests entirely 2. Remove scaling from all quests and leave it set to the highest 'scale' 3. Remove level restrictions from heroic quests.

That way the Elitists can create their own challenge and brag how they solo'ed The Pit elite on a Level 3 toon or they 2 manned Heroic elite Stormhorns chain on level 12 toons. Then those of us that elite at level is challenge enough will be happy and the elitist's will have their extreme challenge. I don't want to be an elitist I just want to enjoy the game I have paid for in the past and will happily pay for in the future if a change like this was made.

[legendkilleroll]

That's right, they were bad enough already...

and that only emphasizes the point...tone down the champs and get rid of them from low level content. After years of working on a toon i have earned the right to play elite content at low lvl with little difficulty. My 3rd life was difficult enough with plenty of challenge to scrape thru elite content with my partner and 2 hirelings. Just before Champions came along, my partner and i were making steady work of elite content with plenty of challenges along the way not needing 2 hirelings anymore most of the time. I earned that thru grinding gear and buying tomes from the store to beef up my toon. That being said, being one shot is not a challenge. I say put another lvl of dungeon out there for the peeps who love this new addition to the game or make champs an option. These peeps who complained the content wasn't hard enough have forgotten what it is like to build a toon from scratch with no twinking involved and having to claw there way thru dungeons with loot gen gear and no tomes. The balance was right on there. Now I need twice the HP that i cannot get to have a chance of surviving. So i call bulls--t.

lol earned the right? This is one thing that's gets to me, people who have been playing for ages seem to think that should get special treatment

Like when destinys were used in heroics the excuse was ive ran this thousands of times before I just want it done

If you want low level with little difficulty put it on normal or hard but no you cant do that as you will lose your streak, get less xp, typical people want the easy ride elite so they can progress faster

[JOTMON]

If this were true I would not have cancelled my VIP subscription.

The answer is simple 1. Get rid of the Champions from heroic level quests entirely 2. Remove scaling from all quests and leave it set to the highest 'scale' 3. Remove level restrictions from heroic quests.

That way the Elitists can create their own challenge and brag how they solo'ed The Pit elite on a Level 3 toon or they 2 manned Heroic elite Stormhorns chain on level 12 toons. Then those of us that elite at level is challenge enough will be happy and the elitist's will have their extreme challenge. I don't want to be an elitist I just want to enjoy the game I have paid for in the past and will happily pay for in the future if a change like this was made.

Those are 3 things I would like to see changed.
1. Personally I don't believe champions should be in heroic content.

2. We already have 4 levels of difficulty .. why do we have dungeon scaling.is it for the EE solo speed records?.
EE records are more meaningful without Dungeon Scaling.

3. If people want to try harder that at level difficulty all the power to them..
The only nuance that should be addressed is "power levelling" and XP.
..where a high level player has a sublevel player in party.. level 10 player in a level 8 quest brings in a level 3 player..

[Ancient]

Those are 3 things I would like to see changed.
1. Personally I don't believe champions should be in heroic content.
No feeling, I try to avoid heroic content as much as possible... although I'm having to play it more and more :(


2. We already have 4 levels of difficulty .. why do we have dungeon scaling.is it for the EE solo speed records?.
EE records are more meaningful without Dungeon Scaling.
I don't care about speed records, but I could totally agree with removing dungeon scaling from elite anything.


3. If people want to try harder that at level difficulty all the power to them..
The only nuance that should be addressed is "power levelling" and XP.
..where a high level player has a sublevel player in party.. level 10 player in a level 8 quest brings in a level 3 player..
One of the things I like about epic levels is the ability to group with whoever, whenever. One of my issues with "power-leveling" penalty is that it isn't always the level 10 player (in your example) carrying the group. For a heroic lvl 10 and lvl 3... probably is. At epic levels, a 7 level difference can be offset by build, destinies, gear, etc.

[OverlordOfRats]

That way they can unnerfed and boost the Champions to challenge multi TR characters. Those players get the challenge they are looking for and mysterious fragments to turn in.


Others who cannot/don't want to handle the challenge only have to make sure they are one level over the quest level instead of being told to play on Normal. They get the house favor( Coin Lords, House Kundarak, ect) and BB streak but no mysterious fragments.

[MisterCanoeHead]

Suggestion: Make Champions only spawn if you are eligible to get mysterious fragments

That way they can unnerfed and boost the Champions to challenge multi TR characters. Those players get the challenge they are looking for and mysterious fragments to turn in.

Others who cannot/don't want to handle the challenge only have to make sure they are one level over the quest level instead of being told to play on Normal. They get the house favor( Coin Lords, House Kundarak, ect) and BB streak but no mysterious fragments.

This is a wonderfully simple and intelligent suggestion. I expect it to be mocked and ridiculed by the usual suspects.

[Wizza]

EE WGU, 39 PRR ;)

http://i.imgur.com/KpXgsfO.jpg


yep. the long lost days of tactics and caution.

What tactic when they hit like that? :)

[Qhualor]

What tactic when they hit like that? :)

the same tactics that's been said numerous times all through this thread and others.

I do wish I could experience these high damage numbers that some people are talking about.

[JOTMON]

What tactic when they hit like that? :)

Probably the tactic of creating kiting pew-pew keep-a-way builds with wings.


the same tactics that's been said numerous times all through this thread and others.

I do wish I could experience these high damage numbers that some people are talking about.

Its easy, you just have to run higher level EE content and get aggro. :)

[Rys]

the same tactics that's been said numerous times all through this thread and others.

I do wish I could experience these high damage numbers that some people are talking about.

Multiple people throughout this thread have been asking for a proof of oneshotting by the champions. When this proof was handed to them on a golden plate I was totally expecting it will be either: ignored or denied or I will be told I am playing the game wrong.

You know, I am totally fine with being hit by 99% of your hp because in that case you have a time for recovery and it's only up to the player how successful recovery it will be. But being hit more than 100% of your hp by a trash mob is what I call lazy design. And it is not like I would be running around with 400 hp. I usually quest with around 1200 hp (if I want to waste more consumables I can get to 1400) and around 70 PRR and that, only because I chose to be in the mountain stance the whole time. Anyway not that like any of this would be any helpful, right? :) But sure I will be following your advices, use a broken trip and definitely will farm at least three of these http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Big_Top.

And to your wish? Well what can I say...maybe try to run high end EE quests more often?

[Qhualor]

Multiple people throughout this thread have been asking for a proof of oneshotting by the champions. When this proof was handed to them on a golden plate I was totally expecting it will be either: ignored or denied or I will be told I am playing the game wrong.

You know, I am totally fine with being hit by 99% of your hp because in that case you have a time for recovery and it's only up to the player how successful recovery it will be. But being hit more than 100% of your hp by a trash mob is what I call lazy design. And it is not like I would be running around with 400 hp. I usually quest with around 1200 hp (if I want to waste more consumables I can get to 1400) and around 70 PRR and that, only because I chose to be in the mountain stance the whole time. Anyway not that like any of this would be any helpful, right? :) But sure I will be following your advices, use a broken trip and definitely will farm at least three of these http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Big_Top.

And to your wish? Well what can I say...maybe try to run high end EE quests more often?

The proof that is usually presented outside of "I was one shot by a Champion" usually doesn't go into detail. It takes several pages trying to pull this proof from the players that experience it. Some of the players saying they are getting one shot are known zergers. The tactics I refer to isn't the broken trip, though trip not broken is one tactic. I refer to a variety of combat tactics, CC and thinking knowing the strengths and weakness of your character before jumping head first into a fight. There's more to figuring out these one shot problems than gear mitigation.

During my past lives I have usually had low mitigation because I'm not going to invest more than what I get from chests, feats and enhancements. I do run a variety of EH/EE and heroic elite quests across all level ranges. I have been hit hard and I have died from Champions. I have not been one shot or even seen other players in pug or any other group one shot. I have never denied this doesn't happen because non Champion mobs and traps already can one shot you if not prepared for it.

[Ancient]

Probably the tactic of creating kiting pew-pew keep-a-way builds with wings.
I'll say it again. If you are wearing pajamas and the mob got to you then you are rolling the dice with your survival... as it should be.

I will grant that they either need to up monk DPS or up the PRR in earth stance. Arcane's need to adapt.


Its easy, you just have to run higher level EE content and get aggro. :)
I do that often, still have not had a champion death that I didn't consider my fault. This is in contrast to shiradi adrenaline procs where I did have a few times where I felt it was an instakill outta nowhere.

[JOTMON]

I'll say it again. If you are wearing pajamas and the mob got to you then you are rolling the dice with your survival... as it should be.

I will grant that they either need to up monk DPS or up the PRR in earth stance. Arcane's need to adapt.



I agree PJ builds do need to stay mobile and should not be venturing into toe-toe without risk..
but even Armored tanks utilize Fortification.
The Ignore Fort buff that these Champions are periodically getting affects everyone.
Combine the amped up damage and the auto-crit..bad things happen..
..because not matter how much fortification you have.. against these champions you have none.. no matter what you do.

[Faltout]

I agree PJ builds do need to stay mobile and should not be venturing into toe-toe without risk..
but even Armored tanks utilize Fortification.
The Ignore Fort buff that these Champions are periodically getting affects everyone.
Combine the amped up damage and the auto-crit..bad things happen..
..because not matter how much fortification you have.. against these champions you have none.. no matter what you do.
The crit posted would not have been that much damage if he was using a heavy armor build. And he would have survived.
That said, the paladin that runs with me does not go toe-to-toe with champions unless we determine they are safe (do not have that much extra damage) and lets me deal with them while she deals with other trash.

Also, to your earlier comment about pew-pew builds: Till recently you could not approach ANY EE monster in melee without fear of your life. How is this any relevant with not being able to approach a <1% of the monsters in melee because they happen to be champions AND have the fort bypass AND score a crit? If you see this as a reason to go pew-pew, then so be it. But the rest of us will avoid that 1 monster and keep playing happily. Even if sometimes we are not too fast/the monster is invisible so death happens. All part of the game.

[Ancient]

I agree PJ builds do need to stay mobile and should not be venturing into toe-toe without risk..
but even Armored tanks utilize Fortification.
The Ignore Fort buff that these Champions are periodically getting affects everyone.
Combine the amped up damage and the auto-crit..bad things happen..
..because not matter how much fortification you have.. against these champions you have none.. no matter what you do.
In spite of going back and forth, our positions are actually very close. Neither of us like the fort bypass buff, and both agree that PJ builds should not be acting like tanks.

Where we differ is that I don't think the alternatives proposed are strong enough and I'm not on board with removing the bypass until a better solution is found. (Change for the sake of change often ends poorly). Problem is my palemaster has way over 200 fort, which is more than most melee. Because that is out of whack, any solution based on bypassing part of the fortification ends up hurting melee more than wizards.

Not thrilled with the status quo either though because the end result is that high end survival is starting to depend on being even bigger bags of HPs... so now not only are the mobs big bags of HP... so are the players.

[JOTMON]

In spite of going back and forth, our positions are actually very close. Neither of us like the fort bypass buff, and both agree that PJ builds should not be acting like tanks.

Where we differ is that I don't think the alternatives proposed are strong enough and I'm not on board with removing the bypass until a better solution is found. (Change for the sake of change often ends poorly). Problem is my palemaster has way over 200 fort, which is more than most melee. Because that is out of whack, any solution based on bypassing part of the fortification ends up hurting melee more than wizards.

Not thrilled with the status quo either though because the end result is that high end survival is starting to depend on being even bigger bags of HPs... so now not only are the mobs big bags of HP... so are the players.

Agreed,

I would prefer to see the fort ignore changed to a bypass calculated based on some scaled up version of CR+ champion bonus or maybe a fortification debuff.
and I would be just fine seeing the fort ignore go now while they figure out how to change the mechanic..

[EllisDee37]

Agreed,

I would prefer to see the fort ignore changed to a bypass calculated based on some scaled up version of CR+ champion bonus or maybe a fortification debuff.
and I would be just fine seeing the fort ignore go now while they figure out how to change the mechanic..I suggested earlier just make all champions get the "sneaky" flag for fort bypass, but if the idea is to go higher than that for some champions, how about change the champions fort ignore to CR*2 bypass?

My main concern is how it scales in heroics. Consider high level heroic elites, like druid's deep or high road, where you're looking at CR30 mobs on a level 18 character. How does a level 18 character expect to defend against 60% fort bypass?

[count_spicoli]

What tactic when they hit like that? :)

Held danced tripped stunned.

After running stormhorns ee last night in a 6 person pug and only 4 deaths in whole chain with it just a full on zerg blast I do not think crowns need nerf of any kind. I would probably add some more buffs actually.

[Qhualor]

Held danced tripped stunned.

After running stormhorns ee last night in a 6 person pug and only 4 deaths in whole chain with it just a full on zerg blast I do not think crowns need nerf of any kind. I would probably add some more buffs actually.

yes, me too. at the very least for elite difficulty they need a boost. after Champions were nerfed to what they are now, players are right back to running quests exactly the same way as before Champions. there is very little slow down or fail chance, even when I solo I don't use caution like I did when they were first introduced.

[Braegan]

I suggested earlier just make all champions get the "sneaky" flag for fort bypass, but if the idea is to go higher than that for some champions, how about change the champions fort ignore to CR*2 bypass?

My main concern is how it scales in heroics. Consider high level heroic elites, like druid's deep or high road, where you're looking at CR30 mobs on a level 18 character. How does a level 18 character expect to defend against 60% fort bypass?

We both had different systems but similar ideas on the matter, so I am in favor of it. :)

As far as it scaling in heroics I don't think it would be an issue to have as you are giving an example of a level 18 char defending against 60% Fort bypass. To be honest it's another nerf, albeit a specific ability target nerf not a sweeping pass, so I support it. Right now they can get complete Fort bypass. And I still believe that champs should be some kind of threat, so having them bypassing a good chunk of fort is still a reasonable trait, IMO.

[slarden]

the same tactics that's been said numerous times all through this thread and others.

I do wish I could experience these high damage numbers that some people are talking about.

It's not hard you just have to run level 26 EE quests with a character that doesn't have high PRR so you can see the actual damage #s rather than the damage #s after PRR damage reduction. WGU, Breaking the ranks, Vol (esp marut optional), GOP.

[Qhualor]

It's not hard you just have to run level 26 EE quests with a character that doesn't have high PRR so you can see the actual damage #s rather than the damage #s after PRR damage reduction. WGU, Breaking the ranks, Vol (esp marut optional), GOP.

I do run those quests on EE and until now while doing my barb lives, ive always had low PRR. ive stated this several times now and I think its funny that every response is that I need to run high level EE quests with low PRR to see for myself that getting one shot by Champions is for real. as if that's the only places and difficulty people are reporting these one shot problems. as if PRR is the only way to reduce damage from Champions.

[slarden]

I would probably add some more buffs actually.

They should allow mobs that ignore fortification completely to also ignore PRR/MRR completely rather than making one form of defense more important than all others. If people are ok with the one-shotting this would definitely be something they would like.

[slarden]

I do run those quests on EE and until now while doing my barb lives, ive always had low PRR. ive stated this several times now and I think its funny that every response is that I need to run high level EE quests with low PRR to see for myself that getting one shot by Champions is for real. as if that's the only places and difficulty people are reporting these one shot problems. as if PRR is the only way to reduce damage from Champions.

That is the only place I see high damage, although I would expect it could also exist in some heroics.

[Sehenry03]

It's not hard you just have to run level 26 EE quests with a character that doesn't have high PRR so you can see the actual damage #s rather than the damage #s after PRR damage reduction. WGU, Breaking the ranks, Vol (esp marut optional), GOP.

This is the problem I have. I just ran all the Orchard quests except MoD on EE and nothing was especially bad. And this was on a 24 Druid who was healing the group. I had plenty of aggro and got hit a lot and died a few times but not due to "1 shotting".

Also why would I not want to run with high PRR? Every class in the game can get 85+ with little effort in PRR/MRR except maybe monks and I just don't play them to know. My 14 Sorc has a 80 PRR right now. And that is done with a crafting shard and a planesforged docent with a blue slot.

[Rys]

They should allow mobs that ignore fortification completely to also ignore PRR/MRR completely rather than making one form of defense more important than all others. If people are ok with the one-shotting this would definitely be something they would like.

I would support this :p

[psykopeta]

Those are 3 things I would like to see changed.
1. Personally I don't believe champions should be in heroic content.

2. We already have 4 levels of difficulty .. why do we have dungeon scaling.is it for the EE solo speed records?.
EE records are more meaningful without Dungeon Scaling.

3. If people want to try harder that at level difficulty all the power to them..
The only nuance that should be addressed is "power levelling" and XP.
..where a high level player has a sublevel player in party.. level 10 player in a level 8 quest brings in a level 3 player..

it exists in heroic quests, but they got rid of it on epic, the difference between highest player lvl and lowest lvl player, reduces(or last time i checkec it was doing so) the xp of the last one in:

- 3 lvls 25%
- 4 lvls 75%
- 5 lvls 99%
- 6 lvls 100%

as i said, that existed in epics too, but after lots of players complaining, they removed it from epics, same thing happened with the minimum lvl to step in a quest, it exists in heroics, but got rid of it in epics cause ppl complaining that if they want to go (and pike) as a lvl 20 toon in a lvl 31 quest while their fruns rush it, they should be able to do so

related to the thread:
champions are **** now, i'm more scared of lag/freezing and being banged by kobolds or whatever non champ mob, that doing belly at lvl ( i.e. 24 so you get frags and chests, which use to be underground btw) which btw has one of the nicests fake difficulty situations, like... the hunter quest in wheloon, the end fight triggers automatically orange DA

[slarden]

This is the problem I have. I just ran all the Orchard quests except MoD on EE and nothing was especially bad. And this was on a 24 Druid who was healing the group. I had plenty of aggro and got hit a lot and died a few times but not due to "1 shotting".

Also why would I not want to run with high PRR? Every class in the game can get 85+ with little effort in PRR/MRR except maybe monks and I just don't play them to know. My 14 Sorc has a 80 PRR right now. And that is done with a crafting shard and a planesforged docent with a blue slot.

I agree you would want to run with high PRR/MRR - it's the current easy button in the game which is exactly why there should be a debuff to get around MRR/PRR rather than just fortification.

Instead of complete fort bypass which results in high damage before DR - there should be a few possible debuffs 100% fortification reduction, 100 PRR reduction and 80MRR reduction. There needs to be more balance in the champion debuffs so it doesn't over-reward one play style.

[slarden]

it exists in heroic quests, but they got rid of it on epic, the difference between highest player lvl and lowest lvl player, reduces(or last time i checkec it was doing so) the xp of the last one in:

- 3 lvls 25%
- 4 lvls 75%
- 5 lvls 99%
- 6 lvls 100%

as i said, that existed in epics too, but after lots of players complaining, they removed it from epics, same thing happened with the minimum lvl to step in a quest, it exists in heroics, but got rid of it in epics cause ppl complaining that if they want to go (and pike) as a lvl 20 toon in a lvl 31 quest while their fruns rush it, they should be able to do so

related to the thread:
champions are **** now, i'm more scared of lag/freezing and being banged by kobolds or whatever non champ mob, that doing belly at lvl ( i.e. 24 so you get frags and chests, which use to be underground btw) which btw has one of the nicests fake difficulty situations, like... the hunter quest in wheloon, the end fight triggers automatically orange DA

The main reason why it made sense for epics is that it ED is such a significant part of epic-level power and it makes it easier to fill end-game raids.

I hope we don't see the same change in heroic content.

[Sehenry03]

I agree you would want to run with high PRR/MRR - it's the current easy button in the game which is exactly why there should be a debuff to get around MRR/PRR rather than just fortification.

Instead of complete fort bypass which results in high damage before DR - there should be a few possible debuffs 100% fortification reduction, 100 PRR reduction and 80MRR reduction. There needs to be more balance in the champion debuffs so it doesn't over-reward one play style.

Oh I completely agree with you on this. Until then though it is easy to build PRR/MRR for everyone except monks...and maybe monks I just don't know. 1 Feat for sorcs/wizzies/FvS/etc and you have an instant 60+ PRR.

Yeah a different debuff each time that affects Fort/PRR/MRR all at different times would be great. I kinda get the feeling that DDO wants us to focus on PRR though and is kinda moving us that way. Personally I don't mind though and I am actually happy for it. I HATED it when evasion was the path we had to go and evasion was on 90%+ of every build out there and I just laugh now when evasion builds complain they aren't the uber defense anymore =). Now they are moving evasion more to the middle of the pack and giving Heavy Armor users a round of being uber finally.

[slarden]

Oh I completely agree with you on this. Until then though it is easy to build PRR/MRR for everyone except monks...and maybe monks I just don't know. 1 Feat for sorcs/wizzies/FvS/etc and you have an instant 60+ PRR.

Yeah a different debuff each time that affects Fort/PRR/MRR all at different times would be great. I kinda get the feeling that DDO wants us to focus on PRR though and is kinda moving us that way. Personally I don't mind though and I am actually happy for it. I HATED it when evasion was the path we had to go and evasion was on 90%+ of every build out there and I just laugh now when evasion builds complain they aren't the uber defense anymore =). Now they are moving evasion more to the middle of the pack and giving Heavy Armor users a round of being uber finally.

The one-feat argument has been stated many times on these forums but I don't agree with it. It doesn't work that way for rogues and fleshy casters can't take heavy armor proficiency without first taking medium and light armor proficiency. The EK tree is a very heavy investment for medium armor proficiency if you are playing a casting wiz/sorc.

It is one feat for fvs and barbarians and of course warforged. Not all races can take the -15% arcane spell failure from the first tier of their racial tree to reduce arcane spell failure.

I agree - PRR/MRR is the new evasion - but on steroids compared to how evasion used to be. Evasion required a high reflex to be effective and 5% of the time it completely failed even if you managed a no-fail save. I don't recall ever being one-hit without evasion except by a few traps which were predictable and avoidable.

I have many alts and a wide variety of builds - I don't really favor one build choice over the other. I just think the champion system shouldn 't favor one build style over another.

[Oxarhamar]

So as the title states ran EE Stormhorns for the saga, ran into quite a good number of Champions (did not keep a tally) but, not a single Remnant from the entire chain chest drop or floor drop.

Random Champions + Random chance of rewards = crapshoot.

Hate it.

[Braegan]

So as the title states ran EE Stormhorns for the saga, ran into quite a good number of Champions (did not keep a tally) but, not a single Remnant from the entire chain chest drop or floor drop.

Random Champions + Random chance of rewards = crapshoot.

Hate it.

That's odd. Last night I ran Enecro chain once on EH and repeated Vol on EE. Wound up with over 30 remnants from chest and floor drops.

[Oxarhamar]

That's odd. Last night I ran Enecro chain once on EH and repeated Vol on EE. Wound up with over 30 remnants from chest and floor drops.

Yep I've had mixed luck.

From running the the full EE saga list this life within level limits for remnants I've acquired 71 total. Got most from Wheloon & GH but crud from most other quests. None from Stormhorns.


My new annoyance is hitting "Q" every so often to check for remnants that many have floor dropped

[Braegan]

Yep I've had mixed luck.

From running the the full EE saga list this life within level limits for remnants I've acquired 71 total. Got most from Wheloon & GH but crud from most other quests. None from Stormhorns.


My new annoyance is hitting "Q" every so often to check for remnants that many have floor dropped

Yeah, it has been some time since I've had to look on the ground for things mobs would drop. Can't say I am excited over its return.

[Oxarhamar]

Yeah, it has been some time since I've had to look on the ground for things mobs would drop. Can't say I am excited over its return.

I am glad they are not dropped in Tbags since there are already so many Tbag drops but, the Remnants are small and flat quiet difficult to see without using auto target unless your camera view is angled a bit downward.

I like that they are yellowish but, they could have been yellowish Tbags. That would have really stood out.

Still best option is auto gathered like Epic scrolls, fragments of Twelve Tokens, chests in Cannith Challenges, and Treasure maps, coins, & gems from Crystal Cove.

[MangLord]

The other day I ran a couple quests from the Sentinels chain on EH to finish out my 3Barrel saga, and I was surprised to see not one fragment drop in either Tide Turns or Black Loch. There were plenty of champions, but no fragments. Those quests are light on orange names, so I couldn't gauge bad luck based on that. I was level 23 running level 21 quests. I didn't think I was overleveling it enough to negate my chances for fragment drops. Just really bad luck?

The only other time I've had that happen is overleveling heroic quests for favor.

Is there a cutoff point at epic levels where, if you're x levels over the quest, fragments don't drop? I was of the understanding that epic level content didn't have the overlevel penalties that heroic content does.

[Oxarhamar]

The other day I ran a couple quests from the Sentinels chain on EH to finish out my 3Barrel saga, and I was surprised to see not one fragment drop in either Tide Turns or Black Loch. There were plenty of champions, but no fragments. Those quests are light on orange names, so I couldn't gauge bad luck based on that. I was level 23 running level 21 quests. I didn't think I was overleveling it enough to negate my chances for fragment drops. Just really bad luck?

The only other time I've had that happen is overleveling heroic quests for favor.

Is there a cutoff point at epic levels where, if you're x levels over the quest, fragments don't drop? I was of the understanding that epic level content didn't have the overlevel penalties that heroic content does.

The over level for XP & Streak work differently in Epics than Heriocs but, Overlevel for Champions is the same in both settings.


Lvl 21 EH =LVL22 Looks like you were too high at 23.

[Zasral]

I do run those quests on EE and until now while doing my barb lives, ive always had low PRR. ive stated this several times now and I think its funny that every response is that I need to run high level EE quests with low PRR to see for myself that getting one shot by Champions is for real. as if that's the only places and difficulty people are reporting these one shot problems. as if PRR is the only way to reduce damage from Champions.

In rusted blades last night I was one shot by a champ for 1300. I have 135 prr! I did a lot of ee's last night probably around 20, and it only happenend the one time. That one time was enough to make me want to throw my mouse against the wall.

[Sehenry03]

In rusted blades last night I was one shot by a champ for 1300. I have 135 prr! I did a lot of ee's last night probably around 20, and it only happenend the one time. That one time was enough to make me want to throw my mouse against the wall.

So you did 20 EE quests...fought maybe 2k monsters? Played for around 8 hours? And in nthe whole time you were 1 shot...ONE time? And you wanted to throw the mouse against the wall. Have you considered anger management?

[Rys]

So you did 20 EE quests...fought maybe 2k monsters? Played for around 8 hours? And in nthe whole time you were 1 shot...ONE time? And you wanted to throw the mouse against the wall. Have you considered anger management?

So what? Broken mechanics are broken and definitely not fun, if you spend large amount of time and consumables and then get randomly smashed like this. Especially if solo.

[Braegan]

So what? Broken mechanics are broken and definitely not fun, if you spend large amount of time and consumables and then get randomly smashed like this. Especially if solo.

I agree with Sehenry. Dying once running 20~ EE quests is hardly something to complain about, let alone get angry over. I guess having 99% success rate is too low?

[Qhualor]

In rusted blades last night I was one shot by a champ for 1300. I have 135 prr! I did a lot of ee's last night probably around 20, and it only happenend the one time. That one time was enough to make me want to throw my mouse against the wall.

yeah, im still waiting for a Champion to hit me for 1000+ damage in one hit in epics and I have far less PRR.

[Rys]

I agree with Sehenry. Dying once running 20~ EE quests is hardly something to complain about, let alone get angry over. I guess having 99% success rate is too low?

I have said many times I want the game harder. But this does not bring any challenge what so ever. At least not for me and pretty sure not even for the people I regulary run with. I gladly fail quests if either I make a crucial mistake or the quest is challenging itself because of the smart fights that require some kind of tactics.

I still think this is a lazy fix to the introduction of PRR and MRR and I always have to smile when I see a random trash mob doing more damage than the end/raid boss :)

[Zasral]

I agree with Sehenry. Dying once running 20~ EE quests is hardly something to complain about, let alone get angry over. I guess having 99% success rate is too low?

I was grouped most of Sunday. I died multiple times I think every time to champions. The only time all day I was angry about was the one shot. A broken mechanic is wrong, anyway you try and justify it. By the way with 135prr there were several champs that hit me for 600-800 threw out the day. If it was a char with 50 prr would have been one shots.

[Braegan]

I have said many times I want the game harder. But this does not bring any challenge what so ever. At least not for me and pretty sure not even for the people I regulary run with. I gladly fail quests if either I make a crucial mistake or the quest is challenging itself because of the smart fights that require some kind of tactics.

I still think this is a lazy fix to the introduction of PRR and MRR and I always have to smile when I see a random trash mob doing more damage than the end/raid boss :)

Well clearly there is a divide I attribute mostly to folks not accurately knowing and reporting why they are getting these one shots. I certainly haven't seen them, but then again if I see I got tagged with a bunch of stacks of vulnerable I back off for a second. Tactical Retreat as it were...hey it's tactics it even has it in the name! :)

I often see this change labeled as lazy. I completely disagree. It would have certainly been easier/lazier to just buff mobs, remove scaling, a number of other things rather then develop a new system meant to provide challenge with a reward (still hoping for improvements) system in place. So no, I disagree completely, this was not lazy. Other methods would have been much easier. I think the devs wanted to introduce something new and fun and were hit with a massive wall of resistance based mostly on self-entitlement.


I was grouped most of Sunday. I died multiple times I think every time to champions. The only time all day I was angry about was the one shot. A broken mechanic is wrong, anyway you try and justify it. By the way with 135prr there were several champs that hit me for 600-800 threw out the day. If it was a char with 50 prr would have been one shots.

And do you recall exactly why you were one shot? Did you have stacks of Vulnerable? Were you Held, Stunned? Did you have your Haggle Item on instead of something else? :)

I disagree that it's a broken mechanic. It's extremely rare (by your own examples) that you face a sudden death situation.

Surely getting one one-shot out of 2000~ isn't really that big a deal is it?

[Rys]

Well clearly there is a divide I attribute mostly to folks not accurately knowing and reporting why they are getting these one shots. I certainly haven't seen them, but then again if I see I got tagged with a bunch of stacks of vulnerable I back off for a second. Tactical Retreat as it were...hey it's tactics it even has it in the name! :)

I often see this change labeled as lazy. I completely disagree. It would have certainly been easier/lazier to just buff mobs, remove scaling, a number of other things rather then develop a new system meant to provide challenge with a reward (still hoping for improvements) system in place. So no, I disagree completely, this was not lazy. Other methods would have been much easier. I think the devs wanted to introduce something new and fun and were hit with a massive wall of resistance based mostly on self-entitlement.


First of all, I could use any kind of tactics if I could actually tell from the first look what buffs the champion has. As it is now (the way how the examine window works, I can't afford to target the champion and examine him)so I just treat each champion like a plague and either avoid them by running past or kill them from 50 metres away. So no, for me it brought zero challenge and zero need to use any kind of tactics.

On the lazy fix. I still disagree with you, I see you disagree with me and that's fine. I think introducing PRR the way it is now was a mistake in the first place and just invalidated that little bit of content we had. It has already started with EDs, continued by introducing immensely powerful gear and so on and so on and they don't seem to stop.

[Sehenry03]

yeah, im still waiting for a Champion to hit me for 1000+ damage in one hit in epics and I have far less PRR.

Yep. I have 150PRR when I play my druid. I play EE all the time and in fact just did another EE orchard run with EH MoD after. Was not 1 shotted at any point. They did kick my ass since I was lvl 26 and I did die a lot in Inferno but it was always multiple hits never just 1. I have been playing a lot the last 6 days since I had vacation so I played a lot of EE as well as a lot of HE content and on 4 different toons. Was not 1 shot at anytime. I like the champions...they have become just more trash mobs though. I play Mheka who is a crappy build Bard8/Fighter9/Rogue1 who has good gear for TRing. He just did all of GH on HE and never came close to dying. He would pull half the dungeons when possible then just jump in the middle and cleave everything to death. He would have 5-10 champs on him at a time and never be in much danger and he is NOT self healing except with cure serious pots. he had around 800 hp's at lvl 16 since he was a dwarf con build with stalwart defender so he drinks a crapton of those pots but he never drops below half often using this tactic. Did Tor on HE solo and normally those mobs at the beginning can kill people easy but again he was never in any danger a nd was easily able to pot heal. he never got hit for more then a few hundred at a time even from Champs. Will be doing LoD chain and Vale tonight to get to 20 and TR again.

I hear about people getting 1 shotted yet it never happens to me. Occasionally I will be grouped with a newer player and I will see them drop dead quick but to be fair they are usually playing wiz/sorcs with like 130hp's at 17 or so and anything can kill them on HE easy.

Yes I know Mheka has an extreme amount of HP's and that's one of the reasons he has not been 1 shotted but my point is he never even gets to half health. I play my sorc at 16 who has a lot less HP's but he never gets 1 shotted either. Show champs the respect and drops them first.

I hope they bump champs back up a bit though it was a lot more exciting the first few days they were released.

[Braegan]

First of all, I could use any kind of tactics if I could actually tell from the first look what buffs the champion has. As it is now (the way how the examine window works, I can't afford to target the champion and examine him)so I just treat each champion like a plague and either avoid them by running past or kill them from 50 metres away. So no, for me it brought zero challenge and zero need to use any kind of tactics.

On the lazy fix. I still disagree with you, I see you disagree with me and that's fine. I think introducing PRR the way it is now was a mistake in the first place and just invalidated that little bit of content we had. It has already started with EDs, continued by introducing immensely powerful gear and so on and so on and they don't seem to stop.

Absolutely, using the examine window in live combat is just not a reality. However, tactics like using CC, terrain, choke points, etc still work on Champs regardless of the buff they have on them. It hasn't brought a whole heck of a lot of challenge to me either, but it has brought some fun back for me.

We will agree to disagree on the terminology of lazy fix. I do agree the way PRR was changed was flawed. IMO it should have been done on Class Enhancements and some Racial Enhancements. Basing it solely off armor and gear has allowed for the silliness of pure wizards walking around in full plate and other classes giving up on class features like evasion just to "Armor Up!" Fighters and Paladins should have the highest PRR/MRR through enhancements like Stalwart. Barbs, Monks (I hate to give Earth Stance yet another boon, but it makes sense) should have slightly lesser. Wizards and Sorcs should have no bonus. Certain races like WF/BF and maybe Dwarf could have had some racial bonus as well.

In case I wasn't clear. I don't mean that other classes should have zip, zero, nadda PRR at all! I am saying the old system could have been left in place and buff the classes that both needed it the most (due to lack of other defenses) as well as the intended target of the buff. That way yes a wizzy or sorc could have their say 50~ PRR like they used to have and only heavy melee classes get the boost via enhancements.

[Rys]

Absolutely, using the examine window in live combat is just not a reality. However, tactics like using CC, terrain, choke points, etc still work on Champs regardless of the buff they have on them. It hasn't brought a whole heck of a lot of challenge to me either, but it has brought some fun back for me.

We will agree to disagree on the terminology of lazy fix. I do agree the way PRR was changed was flawed. IMO it should have been done on Class Enhancements and some Racial Enhancements. Basing it solely off armor and gear has allowed for the silliness of pure wizards walking around in full plate and other classes giving up on class features like evasion just to "Armor Up!" Fighters and Paladins should have the highest PRR/MRR through enhancements like Stalwart. Barbs, Monks (I hate to give Earth Stance yet another boon, but it makes sense) should have slightly lesser. Wizards and Sorcs should have no bonus. Certain races like WF/BF and maybe Dwarf could have had some racial bonus as well.

In case I wasn't clear. I don't mean that other classes should have zip, zero, nadda PRR at all! I am saying the old system could have been left in place and buff the classes that both needed it the most (due to lack of other defenses) as well as the intended target of the buff. That way yes a wizzy or sorc could have their say 50~ PRR like they used to have and only heavy melee classes get the boost via enhancements.
Well yeah the worst problem I have with this is that the PRR is too strong and almost everyone can get pretty high numbers. It made every quest a joke and the attempt to bring a new challenge with champions wasn't successful at all in my eyes. PRR should have been adjusted instead imo.

[psykopeta]

Well yeah the worst problem I have with this is that the PRR is too strong and almost everyone can get pretty high numbers. It made every quest a joke and the attempt to bring a new challenge with champions wasn't successful at all in my eyes. PRR should have been adjusted instead imo.

i expected from prr to have some relation with bab and enhancements

the thing is: equip heavy armor, that's... 100prr and 70mrr? ok, so 50% physic and 40% magic?

something that way, doesn't matter if it's a ml1 armor (*** they gotta be kidding)

[slarden]

Instead of ignoring all fortification, it should either ignore the first 100% of fortification - or fort bypass and critical hits should be mutually exclusive (if it ignores fort, it cannot crit).

Yep and there should be additional buffs that ignore 80% of PRR and MRR so heavy armor isn't so much of a champion easy button.

[Monkey-Boy]

Just get rid of the fort bypass, it's dumb. After that Champs are tolerable.

having a "Celestia" buff that bypassess PRR deserves a little thought.

[Oxarhamar]

Instead of ignoring all fortification, it should either ignore the first 100% of fortification - or fort bypass and critical hits should be mutually exclusive (if it ignores fort, it cannot crit).

That seams a little backwards.

If it ignores fort it cannot Crit?

Since fortification ONLY protects against Critical hits what would ignored fort mean?

[Sierim]

That seams a little backwards.

If it ignores fort it cannot Crit?

Since fortification ONLY protects against Critical hits what would ignored fort mean?

Vulnerability to sneak attack damage. ;)

[8rad]

The nerfs have pretty much made Champions ineffective. Just more trash to smash.

First run after introduction party was wiped. Heart was racing, blood was pumping. We recalled, regrouped, discussed the the dungeon and our tactics. Went back in with a plan and completed with one death I think. It was fun.....

Now it is just as it was before. No thought, no communication, no planning, no tactics required.

[slarden]

That seams a little backwards.

If it ignores fort it cannot Crit?

Since fortification ONLY protects against Critical hits what would ignored fort mean?

It treats it as though you have 0 fortification so fortification gives no protection against critical hits. That is my understanding of how the buff works.

[MangLord]

At this point, I doubt anyone in charge still reads this thread, but I'd really like the True Seeing buff to not be as ubiquitous as it is. It's generally fine, but certain quests make this mechanic a nightmare.

I think two of the hardest EE quests for a melee, particularly my swashbuckler that utilizes a lot of displacement and ghostly effects to avoid damage, are Belly of the Beast and House of Rusted Blades. The blademasters are my worst nightmare. I just can't complete those quests anymore, even at level 27-28. I'm mostly able to take them out slowly while running away for constant healing, but eventually they'll catch me with that poison paralysis and I'm dead in less than a second.
One champion blademaster is pretty challenging, but there's always more than one, and when they can all benefit from each others' buffs, namely True Seeing, I just die instantly regardless of an active cocoon, a secondary quickened/empowered heal and fairly solid twitch skills.

The only times I ever have real trouble with the champions is when they have true seeing or the vulnerability debuff, and they have friends to help them out. When that happens, I usually die so fast it seems instantaneous. I was hunting for an EE Ring of Shadows and died the second the enemies spawned. I have no idea what happened, but there was a Shadow champion in the group and I had just enough time to see it before I died. Level 27 with full health, full buffs, while sitting on consecrated ground. There's just no time to react to the situation, and it feels like a cheap sucker punch that I paid money to receive. LOL

It really feels like more of a cheap shot when I die because there's no way I can avoid it, or even have time to react. I appreciate that my friends can raise me after the fact, but it's very frustrating when I have absolutely no answer for the situation.

I'm currently sitting at level 27 with 95ish prr, 27% dodge, almost 1k hp while in Divine Crusader, with about half of my ETRs done and all my choice gear farmed except for a Falling Darkness buckler. I'm not sure what else to do.

[TitusOvid]

So I made my way from 1 to 20 again and I have to say, champs can really hurt on the lower lvls say 1-8. I got some good gear for Tr'ing so for adventurers it could go a little higher up. The obvious change for me is, wear fortification asap. Everything else can be managed. But I am pretty sure, that peeps without experience of the game mechanics will get discouraged soon. And I am talking about the ones paying money and doing quests on elite the first try...
So I am not quite sure what Turbines strategy is but all in all I don't think it works like intended.

my 2 cents.

[JOTMON]

So I made my way from 1 to 20 again and I have to say, champs can really hurt on the lower lvls say 1-8. I got some good gear for Tr'ing so for adventurers it could go a little higher up. The obvious change for me is, wear fortification asap. Everything else can be managed. But I am pretty sure, that peeps without experience of the game mechanics will get discouraged soon. And I am talking about the ones paying money and doing quests on elite the first try...
So I am not quite sure what Turbines strategy is but all in all I don't think it works like intended.

my 2 cents.

That was what Turbine wanted.. to scare people away from Elite until they were well prepped, geared, experienced.
Elite lost its scariness a long time ago and these changes are the attempt to bring it back.

Even hard wasn't hard.. when's the last time you said ****.. that hard level was hard.. or I am no way near ready to try that on elite.. after running a quest a couple times on normal.

Elite should sent most people at level running away with their tail between their legs.
as a new player I would expect that.
I would always try the harder difficulty get my ass handed to me, figure out what I needed to change to be able to succeed in future.
If I succeeded on Elite, I moved onto the next highest challenge until I was unsuccessful.
If the whole game was too easy, I would go find another game.

[DnDo-Lemau]

If this were true I would not have cancelled my VIP subscription.

The answer is simple 1. Get rid of the Champions from heroic level quests entirely 2. Remove scaling from all quests and leave it set to the highest 'scale' 3. Remove level restrictions from heroic quests.

That way the Elitists can create their own challenge and brag how they solo'ed The Pit elite on a Level 3 toon or they 2 manned Heroic elite Stormhorns chain on level 12 toons. Then those of us that elite at level is challenge enough will be happy and the elitist's will have their extreme challenge. I don't want to be an elitist I just want to enjoy the game I have paid for in the past and will happily pay for in the future if a change like this was made.

Pretty much all of this. I stopped having fun (and therefor stopped playing and unfortunately canceled my VIP as well, sorry) when the champion monsters were kicking my Monk's backside. Characters on Heroic aren't specced for Champions when they travel in groups and come with debuffing party (HE Whisperdoom comes to mind). Turbine could've just souped up the difficulty of the regular monsters instead of the Champions. HE quests don't really pose a challenge by themselves anymore, but with so few PUGs and generally not the quests I need to do, it has now become all but impossible to complete my completionist. Not that it mattered, since he was only in his 5th life, but any hope I had of completing more challenging lives are now completely lost unless I manage to build a character so specifically built for cashing tons of Champion damage that it isn't good at being offensive anymore. Good luck doing that with healers. :(

[Glascanon]

HE quests don't really pose a challenge by themselves anymore, but with so few PUGs and generally not the quests I need to do, it has now become all but impossible to complete my completionist. :(

Change your mind. Run hard streak and u will notice: It might take longer then on a HE Streak but its totally possible to get lvl 20. U could even do it on normal.
There is no permanent quest ransack anymore. Its totally possible to get from lvl 1 to lvl 20 with just 10 quests. So dont tell its Impossible. It just got harder. But as u might notice the last 6 Updates before made TR just easier.
So at the end we just got back to where we came from. And several players don´t have any problems running HE Streaks at all. It might help to play more patient and don't just rush trough the quests.

[psykopeta]

Pretty much all of this. I stopped having fun (and therefor stopped playing and unfortunately canceled my VIP as well, sorry) when the champion monsters were kicking my Monk's backside. Characters on Heroic aren't specced for Champions when they travel in groups and come with debuffing party (HE Whisperdoom comes to mind). Turbine could've just souped up the difficulty of the regular monsters instead of the Champions. HE quests don't really pose a challenge by themselves anymore, but with so few PUGs and generally not the quests I need to do, it has now become all but impossible to complete my completionist. Not that it mattered, since he was only in his 5th life, but any hope I had of completing more challenging lives are now completely lost unless I manage to build a character so specifically built for cashing tons of Champion damage that it isn't good at being offensive anymore. Good luck doing that with healers. :(

there're really few builds that are good at offensive and aren't good at defensive, really few

by good it means well build, no need for gear on heroics

if it's well build u can do on heroics the same as before, maybe a bit slower, not that much

[TerysDethswind]

With 22 lives, epic gear, and supreme +6 tome, I was rather hoping to be a champion of sorts myself. Sadly, a kobold (which has 1d4 HP in the paper and pen version of AD&D) champion has 40 times as many hit points than I will ever have and hits harder than my "epic" weapons. The recurring theme on these messages is that people want more difficulty and those of us that do not are "entitled". I can make the same argument in reverse, those who claim the quests are too easy feel "entitled" to making everyone else suffer for not having their impeccable gear, the perfect build, or the good fortune to have a steady group. In truth, however, it is not about entitlement, its about wanting to enjoy the game (for both sides of the argument). I have enjoyed the game for six years, and easily spent $7k on it. I am retired, and therefore able to play between 6-12 hours a day. I prefer running in a group, but that has become very difficult to find for many quests as everyone seems concerned with Bravery Bonuses, and now continues with the exclusionary rules governing champion remnants. The group espousing the argument that if the game is too difficult for some to handle they should play on a lower difficulty setting has some merit. That is, of course, why DDO comes with variations in difficulty. I have no problem with this approach, simply make the favor, experience, and loot the same across the board, regardless of the difficulty setting and that approach is fine. Then, folks can set the difficulty to their enjoyment level rather than to collect rewards for it, and the question of Champions become less important.

[Qhualor]

The group espousing the argument that if the game is too difficult for some to handle they should play on a lower difficulty setting has some merit. That is, of course, why DDO comes with variations in difficulty. I have no problem with this approach, simply make the favor, experience, and loot the same across the board, regardless of the difficulty setting and that approach is fine.

the group espousing the argument to play on a lower difficulty has merit and you have no problem with it, but you want elite favor, xp and loot. that's where I start using the word "entitlement" but also add the word "contradiction". if more players played the difficulty they can handle than there wouldn't be this problem of feeling the need for highest difficulty rewards, xp and favor mainly. you can still level on a hard BB and repeat few to no quests even on a multi life. playing 6-12 hours a day you should be leveling pretty fast.

[Gljosh]

This might be an out of place question. Do champions appear in Challenges? Everything I have read states not in raids (really they should appear in these) and wilderness areas.

[FestusHood]

This might be an out of place question. Do champions appear in Challenges? Everything I have read states not in raids (really they should appear in these) and wilderness areas.

No.

[HAL]

The current implementation of champions isn't much of an issue. However in certain quests that spawn wave after wave of mobs champions can really get out of hand depending on RNG. I suggest that in this type of quest the chance of champions in subsequent waves of mobs is dependent on how many were spawned in the previous wave. Recently did Belly of the Beast EE at level and it was brutal.

[HAL]

With 22 lives, epic gear, and supreme +6 tome, I was rather hoping to be a champion of sorts myself. Sadly, a kobold (which has 1d4 HP in the paper and pen version of AD&D) champion has 40 times as many hit points than I will ever have and hits harder than my "epic" weapons. The recurring theme on these messages is that people want more difficulty and those of us that do not are "entitled". I can make the same argument in reverse, those who claim the quests are too easy feel "entitled" to making everyone else suffer for not having their impeccable gear, the perfect build, or the good fortune to have a steady group. In truth, however, it is not about entitlement, its about wanting to enjoy the game (for both sides of the argument). I have enjoyed the game for six years, and easily spent $7k on it. I am retired, and therefore able to play between 6-12 hours a day. I prefer running in a group, but that has become very difficult to find for many quests as everyone seems concerned with Bravery Bonuses, and now continues with the exclusionary rules governing champion remnants. The group espousing the argument that if the game is too difficult for some to handle they should play on a lower difficulty setting has some merit. That is, of course, why DDO comes with variations in difficulty. I have no problem with this approach, simply make the favor, experience, and loot the same across the board, regardless of the difficulty setting and that approach is fine. Then, folks can set the difficulty to their enjoyment level rather than to collect rewards for it, and the question of Champions become less important.

I completely agree.

[esojiul]

I completely agree.

I disagre...

[MangLord]

For the past week or so, I've been taking a bit of a break from the constant ETRing I've been working on to enjoy my main character a bit at level cap and actually use the two complete TF weapons I'd put so much time into making, and to revisit my 3rd life Dwarf Fighter/Cleric that was parked at level 7 for nearly a year.

For my main, I have to say that a Mortal Fear weapon helps a lot. I just finished it recently, and it makes EE much less dangerous as a melee, especially against orange named champions. I've also managed to farm out pretty much every piece of gear that I've been looking for, so I'm completely optimized in that respect. That can't hurt my survivability. (the Ward Token is surprisingly good. I won it on a roll and I've been more than pleasantly surprised.) Overall I find champions, be they trash or babybosses, much more dangerous than red names. They have much better random buffs and generally hit a lot harder. However, the two champion buffs that feel cheap are the fort bypass and almost standard true seeing. My character relies pretty heavily on blur and displacement, so true seeing throws a big stick in my spokes. Other than that, I like the added challenge they provide and I think they're generally ok. I think that running a quest at epic levels should always drop champion coins. The bravery bonus system works great for heroic content, but epic doesn't have enough content yet to implement such a system. Personally, I run EH Two Toed Tobias once a day (mostly to try for the cursed blade but it also pays out great xp) and it's a bummer when I'm not getting champion coins anymore. If you want to scale down the rewards based on how many levels over the quest a character is, that's fine with me. It would be nice if I'm still getting at least one coin when I'm still dealing with orange named champions that have the potential to be very dangerous. A reduced rate is perfectly fair.

As far as heroic levels, I think the champions are fine so far. I've gotten my dwarf from 7 to 10, and haven't had any major issues with champions as of yet. He does have access to mastercrafted cannith crafting gear courtesy of my main and some excellent named items, so that can't hurt at all. I can see how someone without optimized gear would get into a bind with the advent of champions. There have been a few hairy moments when I got a champion that hit really hard with some serious damage reduction buff, but the fact that hireling healers are generally still capable of survival in HE makes a big difference. My cleric levels and a pile of Improved Healing Elixirs from collectable hoarding give me enough self healing until the hireling can respond, so it works out. He's a greataxe kensei DPS build, which feels a touch outdated with the state of the current game (if I hadn't save so many awesome greataxes and pre-emptively festival icy bursted many of them, I'd probably respec into vanguard with a tower shield and dwarven axes), but his damage is really great and I've found through game experience and personal preference that focusing on offense is usually also a good defense.
The heavy armor changes have made a noticeable difference in the frequency that I'm on code red for incoming heals. Seriously great job on that, Turbine.

I have definitely noticed that HE seems to pay out much, much better in terms of champion bits. Even running EH and EE with my capped main, allowing my at level pals to kill the champions, I finished out a 3-4 hour session with 50-100 bits. I found that my level 10 dwarf will usually end a similar gaming session with 2-3x that many. I can certainly get through far more heroic elite quests in an hour than I can get through epic elite, so maybe that's where the difference lies. I think EH should pay out a little bit better. I almost never get more that 3 tokens, and the regular champions hardly ever drop anything.

[HAL]

To quote a post from the General Discussion forum:


There are still lots of issues with champion remnants.

So far on in my EE questing for XP.. the at level chests drop anywhere from 1 - 38 remnants (for me so far)... shouldn't Epic Elite drop more than 1 ..
~I can get lots of singles rolling up a newbie veteran toon and using a hireling to beating up kobolds while I go afk and watch Netflix.. or is level difficulty supposed to be irrelevant for remnant drop quantities..

1 in 10 chests is unreachable, whether it is up in the air, or below the ground.
sometimes chests in the ground can be opened if you face it the right way, sometimes not..
had one where I could only open/loot by running against the wall while opening the chest, otherwise wall ones are usually unlootable.
The air ones are generally a miss, don't have the air hang time to open the chest while jumping at the chest.

Ground remnants, sometimes don't seem to spawn until after the mob has disappeared, I try targeting for remnants when champion dies, see none, move on.
Go back that passage way later and see remnants sitting on the ground where I had previously killed a champion.
Could be a delay in spawning issue, but seems inconsistent.

Also:

Even more annoying for me is the Orange names like some of the ones in Detour that you can't kill. Since you can't actually kill them, they won't spawn a chest. You can get them to negative hit points but they have a "defeat" animation so they won't actually die.

And a wonderful comment by redoubt: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/455822-That-s-it-I-m-sick-of-these-champions-and-the-rediculousness-(rant)?p=5537185&viewfull=1#post5537185

[MangLord]

With 22 lives, epic gear, and supreme +6 tome, I was rather hoping to be a champion of sorts myself. Sadly, a kobold (which has 1d4 HP in the paper and pen version of AD&D) champion has 40 times as many hit points than I will ever have and hits harder than my "epic" weapons. The recurring theme on these messages is that people want more difficulty and those of us that do not are "entitled". I can make the same argument in reverse, those who claim the quests are too easy feel "entitled" to making everyone else suffer for not having their impeccable gear, the perfect build, or the good fortune to have a steady group. In truth, however, it is not about entitlement, its about wanting to enjoy the game (for both sides of the argument). I have enjoyed the game for six years, and easily spent $7k on it. I am retired, and therefore able to play between 6-12 hours a day. I prefer running in a group, but that has become very difficult to find for many quests as everyone seems concerned with Bravery Bonuses, and now continues with the exclusionary rules governing champion remnants. The group espousing the argument that if the game is too difficult for some to handle they should play on a lower difficulty setting has some merit. That is, of course, why DDO comes with variations in difficulty. I have no problem with this approach, simply make the favor, experience, and loot the same across the board, regardless of the difficulty setting and that approach is fine. Then, folks can set the difficulty to their enjoyment level rather than to collect rewards for it, and the question of Champions become less important.

Good points and I sympathize. Many times my friends aren't online, or at a different level range than I am. I usually solo in those cases, since I'm somewhere in the grey area between hardcore zerg and true flowersniffer. I consider myself to be a speedy conquest/ransack player. Its hard to find similarly minded players, especially at heroic levels where people are mainly on a race to hit level 20. I tend to solo for that specific reason. It makes me crazy when people leave boxes unbroken or cast invisibility to get to the boss as quickly as possible. I think it's fine if someone wants to play like that, I just don't want to be in their party.

[TerysDethswind]

the group espousing the argument to play on a lower difficulty has merit and you have no problem with it, but you want elite favor, xp and loot. that's where I start using the word "entitlement" but also add the word "contradiction". if more players played the difficulty they can handle than there wouldn't be this problem of feeling the need for highest difficulty rewards, xp and favor mainly. you can still level on a hard BB and repeat few to no quests even on a multi life. playing 6-12 hours a day you should be leveling pretty fast.

How would it be entitlement if everything was the same? There would not be any elite gear, XP, or favor. The concept of providing a different reward based on difficulty level creates the system that encourages higher difficulty levels for rewards rather than setting the game to a difficulty level people enjoy playing.

[Stoner81]

Tangleroot is a complete mess!!!!!

I have done the first 2 or so quests tonight and having a room full of monsters and having 3-4 of them as Champions is quite frankly beyond dumb! Champions are supposed to be leaders of small groups of mobs therefore you shouldn't get 2+ Champions per mob it just doesn't make sense any other way. The attack animation which consists of the 3 very quick strikes can total upwards of 100HP or higher if they crit (which they do... a lot), characters at this level (level 5-6) just don't have the HP to deal with this amount of damage. The CR was either 11 or 12 (not exactly sure) in a level 6 quest on Elite for heavens sake!

Dealing with one Champion which deals a lot of damage is one thing but dealing with multiple Champions PLUS other mobs ALL AT THE SAME TIME is something else entirely and needs to be fixed please!!!

Stoner81.

[esojiul]

Tangleroot is a complete mess!!!!!

I have done the first 2 or so quests tonight and having a room full of monsters and having 3-4 of them as Champions is quite frankly beyond dumb! Champions are supposed to be leaders of small groups of mobs therefore you shouldn't get 2+ Champions per mob it just doesn't make sense any other way. The attack animation which consists of the 3 very quick strikes can total upwards of 100HP or higher if they crit (which they do... a lot), characters at this level (level 5-6) just don't have the HP to deal with this amount of damage. The CR was either 11 or 12 (not exactly sure) in a level 6 quest on Elite for heavens sake!

Dealing with one Champion which deals a lot of damage is one thing but dealing with multiple Champions PLUS other mobs ALL AT THE SAME TIME is something else entirely and needs to be fixed please!!!

Stoner81.


If it to tough for you, do it on normal: i dont have problem leveling. If the quest became difficult, post for a party. You wont have any problem.
I like champion system, maybe:
CAsual- normal: no champion
Hard: champions
Elite: champion do more dmg

[Stoner81]

If it to tough for you, do it on normal: i dont have problem leveling. If the quest became difficult, post for a party. You wont have any problem.
I like champion system, maybe:
CAsual- normal: no champion
Hard: champions
Elite: champion do more dmg

Kindly don't tell me how to play the game.

Thank you.

Stoner81.

[PsychoBlonde]

Here's my Monster Champion feedback:

1. Make all monsters in hard/elite into Monster Champions
2. Reduce # of monsters in all quests by 2/3. :P

I've been on break lately so I haven't done much with the Champions, but I kind of like them. They're at least more interesting than the general run stuff. I'm not sure if just jamming them all willy-nilly into hard/elite quests is the way to go, though, esp. because I think that explorer areas and challenges is where the interesting aspect of Champions would REALLY shine.

Maybe instead of having champions be difficulty-dependent, just put a "crown mode" on quests/explores that lets you choose whether champions can spawn or not--and on any difficulty. This would be a lot easier than trying to fine-tune it. Just let people pick.

[Monkey-Boy]

Maybe instead of having champions be difficulty-dependent, just put a "crown mode" on quests/explores that lets you choose whether champions can spawn or not--and on any difficulty. This would be a lot easier than trying to fine-tune it. Just let people pick.

I don't think anyone would chose to have them, at least not until any of the awards for the champion droppings are actually worth it.

[PsychoBlonde]

I don't think anyone would chose to have them, at least not until any of the awards for the champion droppings are actually worth it.

I would, I like them. It'd be cool if each champion killed gave like 5 guild favor or 100 xp or something like that. I think it's definitely something that people should be able to choose or not choose, though, because it's pretty dang obvious that A LOT of people DON'T like them.

[Thrudh]

Tangleroot is a complete mess!!!!!

I have done the first 2 or so quests tonight and having a room full of monsters and having 3-4 of them as Champions is quite frankly beyond dumb! Champions are supposed to be leaders of small groups of mobs therefore you shouldn't get 2+ Champions per mob it just doesn't make sense any other way. The attack animation which consists of the 3 very quick strikes can total upwards of 100HP or higher if they crit (which they do... a lot), characters at this level (level 5-6) just don't have the HP to deal with this amount of damage. The CR was either 11 or 12 (not exactly sure) in a level 6 quest on Elite for heavens sake!

Dealing with one Champion which deals a lot of damage is one thing but dealing with multiple Champions PLUS other mobs ALL AT THE SAME TIME is something else entirely and needs to be fixed please!!!

Stoner81.

Tangleroot is awesome again!

I just did the first 2 quests last night, and having a room full of monsters and having 3-4 of them as Champions is quite frankly quite the challenge and a load of fun... My last past lives Tangleroot was just a speed run to get experience, rather boring since it was so easy... This time through, I had to move, and think about what I was doing instead of just running full speed at everything and killing every mob in 2 hits. I never even used to look at my health bar in there... but now I had to be careful.

Of course, I'm not always successful when dealing with champions... and that's why they are so great...

A guildie was running Freshen the Air on hard... I decided to break my elite streak and join him... and I ended up getting killed by a champion caster... and I think that was AWESOME... Just like the old days... Freshen the Air used to be a hard quest at level, and now it can be again... It was probably my own fault for getting ahead of the group...

Champions make this game so much better... Thank you for adding them, Turbine!

[hp1055cm]

Why are Champion spawn rates and remnant drops so inconsistent?

HE Carnival chain - lots of champions and lots of chests throughout. I counted 9 chests in Small Problem alone. (Yes it is high every time I run it)
HE Litany - plenty of Champions but almost no remnants and no chests. That is until you get past dragon then champions spawn like crazy and there are are sometimes 10 chests (High Priest wing).
HE Web of Chaos chain: moderate number of champions and NO remnants or chests in LOD, Servants, and Spinner.
HE Delerium, Acid Wit, Missing, Fear Factory - not many champions and max 2 remnant coins total in each.
HE Gianthold - Moderate number of Champions, a few remnants or chest in quests.
HE Sands - Moderate number of Champions, a few remnants or chest in quests, if any.

Plus some champions seem to be hardly any stronger than normal mobs (Like in GH and Carnival) but other Champions hit like a ton of bricks (Attack on Stormreach)

I pulled like 38 remnants from 1 chest somewhere, and other times I get like 1 remnant.

[Maldrak]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/457219-Drak-on-Champions?p=5563602&posted=1#post5563602

[Maldrak]

Details here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/457315-Exp-from-Bravery-Bonus-or-Champions?p=5564730&posted=1#post5564730

(Please also respond in that thread to keep things tidy)

Summary of proposal: If allowing champions to award extra exp worries the developers because "there's already too much exp out there", then I'd rather see the Bravery Bonus mechanic dropped in favor of Champion Exp. In this thread, I ask for your opinions on the matter. As I said, please reply in that thread, I won't be tallying replies posted anywhere but in that thread.

[Warrax23]

I hate champions, and stealing ideas from other games, that much we know.
Since switching most of my toons to Heavy armor, the champions became just another blur in the rearview (either dead or skipped)
However since the orange names no longer give 100% chests, I want them gone, it's a bad mechanic with now barely any relevance to this game. I'm not sure why it was changed, since you already fixed the problem with the "farm" for them why double punish everyone else? You created this bad system and are now making it even worse since it will take way to long to get anything for a toon, and your actually punishing people who play multiple toons as they will never get another to have on each toon, it's honestly ridiculous. Yes bound to account, blah blah blah, who's going to take the time to keep switching that stuff between toons on the fly.

So in conclusion, not only are champions not fun, they are still causing issues of 1/2 shotting people because noone bothered to fix it. There has been a big rift over these since implementation, Check your egos and figure it out, there has been so much FAIL coming out lately it might be time to take a different approach to things. I do understand that you can't make everyone happy, but it's been missing the mark for a while now, how long can we keep the game alive if it continues?

- A concerned customer

[count_spicoli]

I hate champions, and stealing ideas from other games, that much we know.
Since switching most of my toons to Heavy armor, the champions became just another blur in the rearview (either dead or skipped)
However since the orange names no longer give 100% chests, I want them gone, it's a bad mechanic with now barely any relevance to this game. I'm not sure why it was changed, since you already fixed the problem with the "farm" for them why double punish everyone else? You created this bad system and are now making it even worse since it will take way to long to get anything for a toon, and your actually punishing people who play multiple toons as they will never get another to have on each toon, it's honestly ridiculous. Yes bound to account, blah blah blah, who's going to take the time to keep switching that stuff between toons on the fly.

So in conclusion, not only are champions not fun, they are still causing issues of 1/2 shotting people because noone bothered to fix it. There has been a big rift over these since implementation, Check your egos and figure it out, there has been so much FAIL coming out lately it might be time to take a different approach to things. I do understand that you can't make everyone happy, but it's been missing the mark for a while now, how long can we keep the game alive if it continues?

- A concerned customer

people are still tripping on this? Talk about a dead horse. Champs are the only thing that makes this game interesting. ANd even they are hardly noticeable now that they got the nerf. Nobody I know even pays them any mind anymore. They really need to get ramped back up to be hones.

[Warrax23]

people are still tripping on this? Talk about a dead horse. Champs are the only thing that makes this game interesting. ANd even they are hardly noticeable now that they got the nerf. Nobody I know even pays them any mind anymore. They really need to get ramped back up to be hones.

Yes, people ARE still upset about them, hard to believe that the people who were are still upset because nothing was done with them. If you want to play Diablo 2 please be my guest. That's not what I pay for. I pay for DDO. They were tolerable at best, when we were getting chests from orange named, now it's very very low, so not worth my time at all. So yet ANOTHER thing added to the game that's useless, that has wasted Dev time. Like the last 2 updates.

And I'm not here to argue with you, this is MY perspective as a paying customer. They don't increase fun, and take away from the game for me.

[count_spicoli]

Yes, people ARE still upset about them, hard to believe that the people who were are still upset because nothing was done with them. If you want to play Diablo 2 please be my guest. That's not what I pay for. I pay for DDO. They were tolerable at best, when we were getting chests from orange named, now it's very very low, so not worth my time at all. So yet ANOTHER thing added to the game that's useless, that has wasted Dev time. Like the last 2 updates.

And I'm not here to argue with you, this is MY perspective as a paying customer. They don't increase fun, and take away from the game for me.

And it is my perspective that they are great and offer some degree of difficulty all be it not much. Without them it is a complete frog stomp.

[Monkey-Boy]

people are still tripping on this? Talk about a dead horse. Champs are the only thing that makes this game interesting. ANd even they are hardly noticeable now that they got the nerf. Nobody I know even pays them any mind anymore. They really need to get ramped back up to be hones.

When the system still sucks, expect people to still be annoyed by it.

Though I don't think they are anything more than a speed-bump in epics in some heroics they break quests.

[slarden]

And it is my perspective that they are great and offer some degree of difficulty all be it not much. Without them it is a complete frog stomp.

I've lead full EE Orchard Pugs about 50 times in the last 2 months. I've probably had over 100 different people in my groups and I've seen very few people get through that chain without dying on EE.

It really depends on your PRR and self-healing ability. They aren't even a speed bump for a paladin in Divine Crusader. For a wizard in a robe - they are a death sentence. Champions are all about killing people with low PRR due to megacrits. That is why there is such a difference opinion about their danger level.

[Vulkoorex]

So the answer is everyone should play a Paladin.
OK!!!!!

[count_spicoli]

I've lead full EE Orchard Pugs about 50 times in the last 2 months. I've probably had over 100 different people in my groups and I've seen very few people get through that chain without dying on EE.

It really depends on your PRR and self-healing ability. They aren't even a speed bump for a paladin in Divine Crusader. For a wizard in a robe - they are a death sentence. Champions are all about killing people with low PRR due to megacrits. That is why there is such a difference opinion about their danger level.

People should die on ee. Without the threat off that what's the point? What server you on? I would be more than happy to join one of your pugs and show you how someone does not die in those quests and pretty much makes a mockery of the champs in there.

[slarden]

People should die on ee. Without the threat off that what's the point? What server you on? I would be more than happy to join one of your pugs and show you how someone does not die in those quests and pretty much makes a mockery of the champs in there.

Deal!

I am on Sarlona.

Roll up a rogue melee in light armor and let me know when you are ready.

I am going to expect you to actually contribute and not just run around avoiding combat and not dying to prove a point you can run a quest without dying. Anyone can do that. You need to be actively engaged in combat and not dying.

[Qhualor]

And I'm not here to argue with you, this is MY perspective as a paying customer. They don't increase fun, and take away from the game for me.

well as a paying customer giving my perspective they increased my fun when they first came out. the fun was decreased pretty quickly after a few short days and I just don't see the point in having them when there is only 1 or 2 types of Champions that pose any kind of real challenge now. the reward for me was having real challenge again. I don't get that reward from them since they were nerfed. I could care less if they drop chests or not.

[Warrax23]

well as a paying customer giving my perspective they increased my fun when they first came out. the fun was decreased pretty quickly after a few short days and I just don't see the point in having them when there is only 1 or 2 types of Champions that pose any kind of real challenge now. the reward for me was having real challenge again. I don't get that reward from them since they were nerfed. I could care less if they drop chests or not.

And have I spoke out against your opinion in anyway? Have I tried to stifle you posting or made fun of you? No. I believe that you and I can have opposite point, that doesn't mean either of us are wrong especially since it's a perspective issue.

However I will say this, since Champions and the last 2 updates have came out, my guild and channels are now dead.. People aren't playing now. And soon I'll have to make that decision myself, just leave or suffer. Because that's what it's like now... suffering.

Enjoy the game.

[S3R3N1T7]

if someone look this hope a day they understand a mmo die if he have no player

-ddo was not solo player game, but with the self heal implementation all was selfheal now and the result was all player solo quest on elite and hard

-solution found by developer implement champion for give fun (jock)

(i explaine only completioniste or player with many tr think that was fun but
player want play hard or elite can't choice have no champion (it's stupide))

result : mass player leave ddo and they no understand (if you have doubt see lfm)

solution (because i like ddo i give one) : implement choice for player want active champion at the begin of the quest


"an other player who want no leave ddo but champion pushes me to quit this game so please do something for i stay "

[Gljosh]

Just have Champions be broken into two groups Heroic and Epic. If you are a Heroic character and run Heroic content Champs can drop Remnants and Orange Champs can drop chests. Same for Epic characters. Heroic Epic and Epic Elite should be tough, characters should die, traps should be lethal and mobs more than just HP sacks to beat on.

[S3R3N1T7]

lol your are happy have champion for remnat lol (happy for you)

sorry i don't want champion or have choice !

i don't need remnant ;)

think all player was not completionist or 3xcompletionist, and you don't represent all the player, when, i don't represent all player ;) but i constat server lfm decrease player decrease and champion don't help it's hemoragique


and think why player begin leave ddo in mass and i think i do same
(and know new player don't rest longer now in ddo !!! why !!! because you have CHAMPION and they don't want play normal all the time , do you understand !!!!)

i do this message because i like ddo and don't want do what all player leave and leave in silence, i contribu try help ddo come back and work that all

bye elitiste player hope for constructive message for help ddo not die thank you

[Impaqt]

lol your are happy have champion for remnat lol (happy for you)

sorry i don't want champion or have choice !

i don't need remnant ;)

think all player was not completionist or 3xcompletionist, and you don't represent all the player, when, i don't represent all player ;) but i constat server lfm decrease player decrease and champion don't help it's hemoragique


and think why player begin leave ddo in mass and i think i do same
(and know new player don't rest longer now in ddo !!! why !!! because you have CHAMPION and they don't want play normal all the time , do you understand !!!!)

i do this message because i like ddo and don't want do what all player leave and leave in silence, i contribu try help ddo come back and work that all

bye elitiste player hope for constructive message for help ddo not die thank you


The Champion system was not designed to provide people with remants. The system was put in place because Turbine wanted to raise the difficulty level of Hard and Elite. It had gotten to easy.

Your contention that Champions have caused a decrease in population is just speculation that holds no water. I know more people that came back or continued to play because of champions than left.

I know far more people that left becaue the game got too easy and boring.

[UurlockYgmeov]

The Champion system was not designed to provide people with remants. The system was put in place because Turbine wanted to raise the difficulty level of Hard and Elite. It had gotten to easy.

Your contention that Champions have caused a decrease in population is just speculation that holds no water. I know more people that came back or continued to play because of champions than left.

I know far more people that left becaue the game got too easy and boring.


well said and from personal experience (and from what has been discussed in all the PUG's Uurlock has been in since Champs arrived) I fully support your statements.

MANY people coming back to the game (or trying for first time).

[Glascanon]

think all player was not completionist or 3xcompletionist, and you don't represent all the player, when, i don't represent all player ;) but i constat server lfm decrease player decrease and champion don't help it's hemoragique


I was about to quit the game right before Champions came out just because the game got boring. Its still to easy and the power creep is going on.



and think why player begin leave ddo in mass and i think i do same
(and know new player don't rest longer now in ddo !!! why !!! because you have CHAMPION and they don't want play normal all the time , do you understand !!!!)

i do this message because i like ddo and don't want do what all player leave and leave in silence, i contribu try help ddo come back and work that all

bye elitiste player hope for constructive message for help ddo not die thank you

U mean they leave instead of trying to get better?
U r saying there are PPl out there who cant finish EH quests because of Champions?
Do i have to post a Video showing a Hireling finishing EH quests with me in background doing nothing else then sneaking and watch him kick asses?
This game is a lot but definitely not to hard!

PPL still zerg with red alerts on EE. In Heroics Champs may slow u down thats it.
Some EE Bosses in quests hit me for like 4-9 damage. That is Cortos Island niveu. It is because of the immense power creep in damage mitigation.
Healing amplification buff makes it even more easy to stay healthy.
DPS boosts over the edge makes the fights quicker.
EE got the new EH. Before the power creep EH was the way more common difficulty mode for those wich got bored in EN. Now EH is same way boring as EN was before.
EE keeps u bussy klicking your buttons but not much more.
Its pretty hard to find any kind of challenge in this game. Thats why ppl spread out Videos doing shortman or solo Raids and Quests on EE against the stopwatch.
Like 6 man running Fall of Truth EE in less then 7 minutes. Including the talking time at the beginning and the middle of the raid.
It is not about "hey look i can do this solo" it is about who can do it faster then the other. Because there is no option to fail.
That was with 6 ranged toons just BEFORE Ranged DPS got another 30% boost.

And for pretty much the same Reason we don´t see LFM´s that much. There is not much more to do.
Most PPL TR or ER in Guild or Friends only Partys or just plainly soloing it because random players will just slow them down or make them look rude.
The Game got so easy that taking other players with u will just slow down the zerg. Because they dont know the shortcuts doing stuff wich is not necessary 4 completion. Dont find the way to the next quest entry. All what counts is the XP per minute.

Ull barely see a player joining a EE quest just because he never done that before and needs the favor.
Exept the noobs wich are not readdy for EE yet. But due the power creep noone really cares dragging a noob trough EE til completion.
Before the power creep u barely saw a random puc running or even zerging EE quests. PPl might get upset from EE champs because they just face them way to early.
And there is plainly no reason 4 a elitist TR ER grinder to help other players getting better because they wont need them anyway. Would just slow them down to do so.

I was first time standing in a quest on EE as i reached the former lvl cap of 25 with a full guild group using teamspeak after i and had a couple of raids done and most quests on EH.

If u get kicked in the but from a champion after the Power creep just keep in mind that before the power creep, every mob in that quest would have kicked your but the same way and not just some of the champions!

[slarden]

The Champion system was not designed to provide people with remants. The system was put in place because Turbine wanted to raise the difficulty level of Hard and Elite. It had gotten to easy.

Your contention that Champions have caused a decrease in population is just speculation that holds no water. I know more people that came back or continued to play because of champions than left.

I know far more people that left becaue the game got too easy and boring.

I think any contention that people are returning to the game because of champions is definitely speculation - I haven't seen one case of that. Something like MOD EE is much more challenging than champions and most of the people with all the past lifes and gear on Sarlona don't want to run that.

I just question whether champions are doing what they are intended to do since they effectively only challenge low-PRR characters. I was leading an EE PUG Orchard run almost every day for about 2 months and I can tell you the average player isn't finding EE easy. I see alot of people die and I see people sitting at -500 or higher after getting hit from a champion.

The combination of armor up and champions broke the game for people with low PRR that don't have several divine/PDK past lifes. Fortification used to be an equalizer that prevented damage spikes for low PRR characters but there is a specific debuff that eliminates only that layer of protection. The PRR debuff in TOEE could have been done right to target PRR as a percentage, but it was done as a fixed # so again this debuff specifically hurts players with low PRR much more.

I don't really care what Turbine does with champions, but I think the system is very flawed and limits build diversity for people that want to run EE. For some people, having to TR to make a champion-friendly build is not something they want to do.

The only true measure Turbine has about whether champions are driving away casual players is revenue. If revenue is down there likely was an impact of champions as casual players tend to spend more $ per hour playing than hardcore players. Their loss isn't as apparant on total playtime #s since they tend to play less than the hardcore players.

If revenue is up or neutral then it's unlikely champions are driving away casual players.

[Impaqt]

I think any contention that people are returning to the game because of champions is definitely speculation - I haven't seen one case of that. Something like MOD EE is much more challenging than champions and most of the people with all the past lifes and gear on Sarlona don't want to run that.

o.O how can you claim personal observation and experience to be "speculation"? I know people who cam back to the game because of champions. just like some people know folks that quit because of champions. I may question the motivations, but its got nothing to do with speculation.



I just question whether champions are doing what they are intended to do since they effectively only challenge low-PRR characters. I was leading an EE PUG Orchard run almost every day for about 2 months and I can tell you the average player isn't finding EE easy.

GOOD! thats exactly what the system was supposed to do!



I see alot of people die and I see people sitting at -500 or higher after getting hit from a champion.

and? they obviously were not prepared.




The combination of armor up and champions broke the game for people with low PRR that don't have several divine/PDK past lifes. Fortification used to be an equalizer that prevented damage spikes for low PRR characters but there is a specific debuff that eliminates only that layer of protection. The PRR debuff in TOEE could have been done right to target PRR as a percentage, but it was done as a fixed # so again this debuff specifically hurts players with low PRR much more.

not sure of the point of getting into this again, but getting a 100 Prr is pretty darn easy. and if you are not going for PRR, you just have to think about your playstyle. things like, Dont try to be a Tank with no PRR....



I don't really care what Turbine does with champions, but I think the system is very flawed and limits build diversity for people that want to run EE. For some people, having to TR to make a champion-friendly build is not something they want to do.


I see plenty of diversity still.




The only true measure Turbine has about whether champions are driving away casual players is revenue. If revenue is down there likely was an impact of champions as casual players tend to spend more $ per hour playing than hardcore players. Their loss isn't as apparant on total playtime #s since they tend to play less than the hardcore players.

If revenue is up or neutral then it's unlikely champions is driving away casual players.

and since that info is unavailable, people resort to anecdotal evidence as "proof", or make wile claims based on their own sense of entitlement.

[slarden]

o.O how can you claim personal observation and experience to be "speculation"? I know people who cam back to the game because of champions. just like some people know folks that quit because of champions. I may question the motivations, but its got nothing to do with speculation.

After your comments on the guild system changes a few years ago I definitely view your comments with alot of skeptism. Anyone can claim anything on the forums.



not sure of the point of getting into this again, but getting a 100 Prr is pretty darn easy. and if you are not going for PRR, you just have to think about your playstyle. things like, Dont try to be a Tank with no PRR....


Then you should have no problem breaking down that easy 100 PRR for a rogue first lifer in shadowdancer. Please do so.



and since that info is unavailable, people resort to anecdotal evidence as "proof", or make wile claims based on their own sense of entitlement.

I have no concerns about what Turbine does with the champion system as I have both the time and resources to make any character adjustments I need to quickly. Even my rogue does just fine in EE with champions after getting some divine/PDK past lifes.

What I said is that revenue is a very significant indicator on how Turbine is doing with respect to casual players. I have a strong basis there to believe that casual players spend alot more relative to time spent in game compared to hardcore players. I suspect Turbine realizes that too.

I have no idea what #s are, but if there is a big shift up or down it would be a good indicator of how casual players are reacting to recent game changes - the champion system probably being the biggest thing that impacts daily playing. It doesn't matter what you or I think - I think turbine has a strong understanding of where their money is coming from. They can also data mine as needed when their revenues increase or decrease. If revenue is up they are on the right track. If revenue is down they are on the wrong track.

If revenue is neutral - the champion system had no real impact which is what I suspect to be the case.


I see plenty of diversity still.


I see more diversity from the various class passes but everyone is shifting toward high PRR builds.

[Impaqt]

After your comments on the guild system changes a few years ago I definitely view your comments with alot of skeptism. Anyone can claim anything on the forums.

well, thats VERY different than calling it "Speculation". If you think I'mlying for some reason, then just say that. dont cal it something that doesnt make sense.





Then you should have no problem breaking down that easy 100 PRR for a rogue first lifer in shadowdancer. Please do so.

That would fall more under my "Dont try to be a tank with no PRRt" comment. Rogues should NOT be pulling aggro.

Still, even in Light armor, 40-60 PRR is stupid easy

Light armor and a Sheltering item put you in the Mid 40's for a 30% reduction in incoming damage.



I have no concerns about what Turbine does with the champion system as I have both the time and resources to make any character adjustments I need to quickly. Even my rogue does just fine in EE with champions after getting some divine/PDK past lifes.

so why do you think a first lifer with little gear should be able to perform the same as you in difficult content?



What I said is that revenue is a very significant indicator on how Turbine is doing with respect to casual players. I have a strong basis there to believe that casual players spend alot more relative to time spent in game compared to hardcore players. I suspect Turbine realizes that too.

I have no idea what #s are, but if there is a big shift up or down it would be a good indicator of how casual players are reacting to recent game changes - the champion system probably being the biggest thing that impacts daily playing. It doesn't matter what you or I think - I think turbine has a strong understanding of where their money is coming from. They can also data mine as needed when their revenues increase or decrease. If revenue is up they are on the right track. If revenue is down they are on the wrong track.

If revenue is neutral - the champion system had no real impact which is what I suspect to be the case.



I see more diversity from the various class passes but everyone is shifting toward high PRR builds.

thats more because gaining PRR doesnt really take that much of an effort.

And I think there are far more people running around in EE with 40-60 PRR than there are 100+.

[slarden]

not sure of the point of getting into this again, but getting a 100 Prr is pretty darn easy.


Rogues should NOT be pulling aggro.

Still, even in Light armor, 40-60 PRR is stupid easy

It doesn't matter if rogues pull aggro or not - they are going to take damage from champions at times. They will get one-hit sometimes where a paladin playing stupid will never get one-hit.

The system doesn't challenge high PRR builds at all and low PRR builds face one-shotting.

I don't care what Turbine does because I can adapt. I just think all the complaints in here are very legitimate because the system itself is flawed as it negates fortification entirely through one debuff which makes PRR the only form of mitigation against megacrits.

PRR is the biggest easy-button this game ever had. It has nothing to do with skill.

[Impaqt]

It doesn't matter if rogues pull aggro or not - they are going to take damage from champions at times. They will get one-hit sometimes where a paladin playing stupid will never get one-hit.

The system doesn't challenge high PRR builds at all and low PRR builds face one-shotting.

I don't care what Turbine does because I can adapt. I just think all the complaints in here are very legitimate because the system itself is flawed as it negates fortification entirely through one debuff which makes PRR the only form of mitigation against megacrits.

PRR is the biggest easy-button this game ever had. It has nothing to do with skill.


Maybe true,

But that paladin being played stupid is still going to die more often than a well played rogue.

[FranOhmsford]

Maybe true,

But that paladin being played stupid is still going to die more often than a well played rogue.

And the people who play both Great or Bad or Just OK?

How many times do I have to say that appeals to either/or scenarios are weak arguments?

It's not about the great player on a Pure Rogue vs the terrible player on whatever the Flavour of the Month Build is!

It's about making sure the 75% of players who fall into neither category are kept happy!

If that leaves the great players bored then we need a REAL End-Game for them to play!

[Hafeal]

o.O how can you claim personal observation and experience to be "speculation"?

The speculation is that your personal observations are true to the entire player base.




Still, even in Light armor, 40-60 PRR is stupid easy

Light armor and a Sheltering item put you in the Mid 40's for a 30% reduction in incoming damage.

I have not been digging around Heroic lives for a while but I am not aware of many Heroic sheltering items. Are there any? I think champions are bigger headache on Heroic because it is really hard to find groups not running Elite.





But that paladin being played stupid is still going to die more often than a well played rogue.

In my static group, which includes several players who only play once or twice a week, Champions can be tough but we still manage to handle many EE quest - sometimes with deaths. One of them is a Paladin and he does quite well - often surviving well with his PRR and MRR - so it does make a significant difference.

Funny enough, I like the champions. It is cause for concern. My static group also does not mind the 'risk' of death at all - especially if we are playing EE. And if a quest is too much, we back down to EH.

One of our hardcore players in guild, with 30 past lives, running a tree build, takes champions carefully at times (Lich Avengers in Ghosts, for example) because even the best can be 1 shotted. Does he mind? No - he wants it harder - he has 30 **** past lives and very little in the game can kill before he can crit for 7k - 72k. Seen it. Crazy stuff.

Now, should the game be built around his build? NO. But casual players going and doing EE, on their 1st life, should expect to die and be challenged. I think champions *help* bring some risk back to the adventure.

[Thrudh]

getting a 100 Prr is pretty darn easy.

Breakdown please.

[Impaqt]

And the people who play both Great or Bad or Just OK?

Deaths have more to do with the player behind the keyboard than the build of the toon.





How many times do I have to say that appeals to either/or scenarios are weak arguments?


you can say it untill the cows come home. doesnt make it true.



It's not about the great player on a Pure Rogue vs the terrible player on whatever the Flavour of the Month Build is!


terrible players on Flavor of the month builds still die.



It's about making sure the 75% of players who fall into neither category are kept happy!

If that leaves the great players bored then we need a REAL End-Game for them to play!

The need for an end game is a completely separate issue, and is in no way related to Champions.