PSA: Difficulty levels and you!

[IronClan]

If one difficulty level is too hard for you, pick the next lower!

"the more you know"

You are not entitled to be death free in EE or cake walk through EH without ever failing. The difficulty levels serve an important purpose, by insisting that the hardest levels be free of challenge or danger, you're quite literally ruining the game for people who need more danger and challenge than you do. Whats more you're selfishly refusing to use the provided lower levels and thoughtlessly worsening the game for those who do not have a harder level they can choose.

OR perhaps worse you're forcing the Developers to make a 5th difficulty level and wasting a whole lot of time converting content and making another "higher level" so that all the people who SHOULDN'T BE PLAYING EE OR EVEN EH can then gradually feel entitled to complain about how hard "Super-duper" is and get it nerfed down to the point where they can breeze through it in turn...

Time to end this madness.

If you come to the Forum and say EE is too hard... You belong in EH... if EH is too hard, you need to select EN... Apparently this simple process is unknown to some people. You do not get to furiously rant about how the "too hard" part should be dumbed down for you... you're being selfish and entitled and ruining the game for people who desire challenge but do not have any choices that are harder than Elite.

-Signed Someone who PUG's EE's every night yet hasn't been in a Party wipe in 5 or 6 months (that didn't involve lag).

As a community service I would like to suggest that all posts of complaint about "such and such is too hard" be met with the following polite response:

Did you try the next lower difficulty?

[Scrabbler]

If one difficulty level is too hard for you, pick the next lower!
The next lower difficulty is so easy that the monsters might as well not even be there.

[ufo2013]

Adding champions is a real dumb idea - it doesn't solve the power disparity between casuals and hardcores. Yea so you think EE/EH was too easy, you add Champions and now? What vets find a tad harder, casuals find it impossible. Eventually the hardcores will be able to stomp through the champions, while the power disparity amplifies and the casuals get left behind, further.

Removing scaling, as in making the quest having full scaling whether you solo or full party, should have been the way to go.

[IronClan]

The next lower difficulty is so easy that the monsters might as well not even be there.

They just increased EH with champions I find it hard to believe you've played enough EH to make a sound determination on it.

That said they probably need to tweak all the difficulties up besides Casual.

[Scrabbler]

They just increased EH with champions I find it hard to believe you've played enough EH to make a sound determination on it.
How did you make your sound determination before declaring Public Service Announcements?

[Vulkoorex]

Maybe they should have added a check box for Monster Champions if vets wanted more of a challenge.

I'm casual and I find at level Heroic Elite challenging enough without the Monster Champions. And my toons are first or 2nd lifers. So no past lives to boost survivability.

[TheLegendOfAra]

Removing scaling, as in making the quest having full scaling whether you solo or full party, should have been the way to go.

And if I am in a full part of people piking at the start of quest, and can still solo that quest on EE, what exactly did scaling accomplish?
Or the lack of scaling rather...

I agree scaling should go, but it will not impact the difficulty of quests much.

Champions, if done right, would have been a wonderful addition that would have added difficulty.
They still can, but they need some major adjustments.

As always, the best answer to easy game play is smarter design choices when making quests/raids.

[Connman]

How did you make your sound determination before declaring Public Service Announcements?

from years of playing the game I would assume. It kind of goes with the whole if you can't hang then gear up mentality that comes from an MMO.

/signed

[Stamp3de89]

Maybe they should have added a check box for Monster Champions if vets wanted more of a challenge.

I'm casual and I find at level Heroic Elite challenging enough without the Monster Champions. And my toons are first or 2nd lifers. So no past lives to boost survivability.

If you are a casual player, you should have problems with elite quests. They are called Elite...

[Qhualor]

If one difficulty level is too hard for you, pick the next lower!

"the more you know"

You are not entitled to be death free in EE or cake walk through EH without ever failing. The difficulty levels serve an important purpose, by insisting that the hardest levels be free of challenge or danger, you're quite literally ruining the game for people who need more danger and challenge than you do. Whats more you're selfishly refusing to use the provided lower levels and thoughtlessly worsening the game for those who do not have a harder level they can choose.

OR perhaps worse you're forcing the Developers to make a 5th difficulty level and wasting a whole lot of time converting content and making another "higher level" so that all the people who SHOULDN'T BE PLAYING EE OR EVEN EH can then gradually feel entitled to complain about how hard "Super-duper" is and get it nerfed down to the point where they can breeze through it in turn...

Time to end this madness.

If you come to the Forum and say EE is too hard... You belong in EH... if EH is too hard, you need to select EN... Apparently this simple process is unknown to some people. You do not get to furiously rant about how the "too hard" part should be dumbed down for you... you're being selfish and entitled and ruining the game for people who desire challenge but do not have any choices that are harder than Elite.

-Signed Someone who PUG's EE's every night yet hasn't been in a Party wipe in 5 or 6 months (that didn't involve lag).

As a community service I would like to suggest that all posts of complaint about "such and such is too hard" be met with the following polite response:

Did you try the next lower difficulty?

I used to agree with you a lot and than something happened and we went down separate paths. this post makes it so we are on the same path again. this is a post where you sit someone down, don't let them speak, tell it like it is and than send them to their room to think about it.

[Vulkoorex]

If you are a casual player, you should have problems with elite quests. They are called Elite...

So Elite should be impossible with Monster Champions for a casual player.

Gotcha,
Thanks.

[IronClan]

Adding champions is a real dumb idea - it doesn't solve the power disparity between casuals and hardcores. Yea so you think EE/EH was too easy, you add Champions and now? What vets find a tad harder, casuals find it impossible. Eventually the hardcores will be able to stomp through the champions, while the power disparity amplifies and the casuals get left behind, further.

Removing scaling, as in making the quest having full scaling whether you solo or full party, should have been the way to go.

In one sentence you despair of Casuals not being able to run EE. In the next sentence you want them to make the difficulties static and unforgiving? I can get behind removing scaling at least from EE, but that's just going to INCREASE the thing you're objecting to in your first sentence.

What I see when I read the complaints about Champions is someone who wants no challenge, or wants EE to be zergable, and every quest to be a faceroll of sameness and never ending repetions without anything to make you pause, add tension, instill caution or add variety to the gameplay.

I've yet to see a complaint about Champions that isn't explainable as: doing a difficulty that you used to steamroll and now are angry you can't steam roll any more. OR someone not getting the quest mechanic (Mirror and Balloon damage in an EXTREME CHALLENGE <-- there's a reason they call it that... but yet people are griping about how it's hard???? W*da*Everlivin*freak are we supposed to do with that?) and not adapting via meta gaming. You can steamroll EN just as easy as EH or EE... and you clearly don't want challenge... So why do EH or EE? It's not like there's some special loot you can't get? The Entitled casuals complained that out of the game as well!

So why ruin EH and EE by drumming up a big Turbine cowing mob and shouting until they remove champions or make them so vanilla that "casuals can stomp through them like Vets"

I'm not an elitist, I am not scared to say I've done EN or even casual mode when the situation called for it (fast flagging for a raid) or in the times I've found EE too tough for my characters gear and level. I drop down a setting and do EH or even EN. I do not come to the forum and beg Turbine to make EE doable on a first lifer with Eveningstar Comms gear in every slot...

[IronClan]

Maybe they should have added a check box for Monster Champions if vets wanted more of a challenge.

I'm casual and I find at level Heroic Elite challenging enough without the Monster Champions. And my toons are first or 2nd lifers. So no past lives to boost survivability.

They do have check marks for it, it's called EH and EE check those if you want challenge: Don't check those if you don't want challenge. Pretty simple. Check EN if you want to faceroll with no challenge... you do not have a right to demand that HARD be easy and ELITE be doable by casuals. Those words have meanings... they imply important things... They communicate what you should expect to face.


from years of playing the game I would assume. It kind of goes with the whole if you can't hang then gear up mentality that comes from an MMO.

/signed

Yeah there does need to be a POINT to progressing a character and improving their gear... being able to tackle tougher content is usually that point. Why has this become such vexing thing to the entitled generation?


So Elite should be impossible with Monster Champions for a casual player.

Gotcha,
Thanks.

That you ask this question like he should be ashamed of that answer is all the data anyone should need.

That said, no one said impossible.... but the point of "Epic Elite" really is supposed to be "extremely challenging" even for veteran players WITH gear... That's the POINT of that setting... There are 4 settings there is utterly no point in having 4 settings if we're to make EE into something casual players expect to succeed in.

That you don't understand why difficulty settings exist and expect the hardest mode to cater to the least experienced players suggests an astounding amount of selfishness.

[phillymiket]

"the more you know"

I think returning to the way Epic used to be, which was EN the normal sometimes EH and almost never EE for PuGs, is a good thing, so I'm hopeful and like the change.

But it's a shock to the system.

Back in the day Normal and Hard was the usual and didn't feel so icky.

Elite rewards were "extra" then. Now Hard rewards are "less".

People will not change that mode of thought overnight and there will be feels involved here.

Having something taken away always feels worse then if you never had it to begin with.

If people have to "step down" to H or N, it might feel like they are all of a sudden losing xp and lootz and it will feel like leveling is taking longer, because it will be.

"Well and good', you may say. That's fine, but if it drives away players in a game that already feels unpopulated? That would not be good.

Even now, there isn't the volume of players there once was and waaaay more content and level ranges.

Will LFMs be plentiful enough for new players to stick around if solo isn't an option except at the easiest difficulty?

While none of this matters to the well guilded and well geared on the surface, it might if the game takes a dive because of it.

Will we return to the days of more LFMS but at lower difficulty? If so, then this is all good stuff and the game will benefit.

Or will this alienate all but those with the resources and connections to run the content? If so, this could be a very bad move.

If only the geared and guilded have access to E level loot, if only they can BB E streak through PLs, then those out in the cold - who are used to E loot and E XP at this point - might just say bye bye.

It's a bold move.

I like it, but fear for the results.

I'd rather have an imperfect DDO than no DDO at all.

But it's done and done so lets hope it goes well.

/roll d20

[Rykka]

If one difficulty level is too hard for you, pick the next lower!

"the more you know"

You are not entitled to be death free in EE or cake walk through EH without ever failing. The difficulty levels serve an important purpose, by insisting that the hardest levels be free of challenge or danger, you're quite literally ruining the game for people who need more danger and challenge than you do. Whats more you're selfishly refusing to use the provided lower levels and thoughtlessly worsening the game for those who do not have a harder level they can choose.

OR perhaps worse you're forcing the Developers to make a 5th difficulty level and wasting a whole lot of time converting content and making another "higher level" so that all the people who SHOULDN'T BE PLAYING EE OR EVEN EH can then gradually feel entitled to complain about how hard "Super-duper" is and get it nerfed down to the point where they can breeze through it in turn...

Time to end this madness.

If you come to the Forum and say EE is too hard... You belong in EH... if EH is too hard, you need to select EN... Apparently this simple process is unknown to some people. You do not get to furiously rant about how the "too hard" part should be dumbed down for you... you're being selfish and entitled and ruining the game for people who desire challenge but do not have any choices that are harder than Elite.

-Signed Someone who PUG's EE's every night yet hasn't been in a Party wipe in 5 or 6 months (that didn't involve lag).

As a community service I would like to suggest that all posts of complaint about "such and such is too hard" be met with the following polite response:

Did you try the next lower difficulty?

But but but! I have run Inferno countless times solo on elite! The monsters with the floaty crowns over their heads. They too hard!

Yay!

Lol.

[Vulkoorex]

They do have check marks for it, it's called EH and EE check those if you want challenge: Don't check those if you don't want challenge. Pretty simple. Check EN if you want to faceroll with no challenge... you do not have a right to demand that HARD be easy and ELITE be doable by casuals. Those words have meanings... they imply important things... They communicate what you should expect to face.



Yeah there does need to be a POINT to progressing a character and improving their gear... being able to tackle tougher content is usually that point. Why has this become such vexing thing to the entitled generation?



That you ask this question like he should be ashamed of that answer is all the data anyone should need.

That said, no one said impossible.... but the point of "Epic Elite" really is supposed to be "extremely challenging" even for veteran players WITH gear... That's the POINT of that setting... There are 4 settings there is utterly no point in having 4 settings if we're to make EE into something casual players expect to succeed in.

That you don't understand why difficulty settings exist and expect the hardest mode to cater to the least experienced players suggests an astounding amount of selfishness.


I said Heroic Elite not Epic Elite. What these changes mean for casuals and new players is that in order to do Heroic Elite, you will need to be over leveled or have multiple past lives. And you can kiss doing any favor runs goodbye. And forget about getting 5000 favors unless your playing a min/max toon.

I don't mind a challenge but being one-shot by a non boss doesn't seem fun to me at all.

And how is anything I said any more selfish than those who wanted it to be more difficult?

Pot meet kettle.

[Qhualor]

I don't mind a challenge but being one-shot by a non boss doesn't seem fun to me at all.

I have yet to experience this myself from Champions, but its all too common to get one shotted by disintegrate from non Champion mobs like beholders.

ive seen the posts that Champions are dealing triple the amount of damage that any "normal" hp character would have, but so far haven't seen it. didn't see this on Lamma either. if this is true, than it should be fixed. Champions should not be able to hit harder than an end quest boss, but they should hit no harder than a mini boss.

[BD_]

I have yet to experience this myself from Champions, but its all too common to get one shotted by disintegrate from non Champion mobs like beholders.

ive seen the posts that Champions are dealing triple the amount of damage that any "normal" hp character would have, but so far haven't seen it. didn't see this on Lamma either. if this is true, than it should be fixed. Champions should not be able to hit harder than an end quest boss, but they should hit no harder than a mini boss.

Almost every champion mob (in EE GH) I encountered hit harder than most EE raid bosses.

[Qhualor]

Almost every champion mob (in EE GH) I encountered hit harder than most EE raid bosses.

this must be the issue than. ive been running around doing elite level 15 and 16 quests at level and only a couple Champions I fought longer than 5 seconds doing minimal damage to me on a squish rogue. it must be the epic scaling in epics, but I didn't read anything about these kinds of damage numbers from any of the Lama threads. maybe in a couple days ill see these 6k damage numbers.

[IronClan]

I said Heroic Elite not Epic Elite. What these changes mean for casuals and new players is that in order to do Heroic Elite, you will need to be over leveled or have multiple past lives. And you can kiss doing any favor runs goodbye. And forget about getting 5000 favors unless your playing a min/max toon.

I don't mind a challenge but being one-shot by a non boss doesn't seem fun to me at all.

And how is anything I said any less selfish than those who wanted it to be more difficult?

Pot meet kettle.

First of all this "one shot" madness is the result of someone going into an EXTREME CHALLENGE quest with a very specific damage mechanic that amps up the incoming damage, and then deciding that Champions are garbage because he did it wrong and can't understand what the words "extreme challenge" might entail. Again the failure is on the players expectations. What does Turbine need to do? make every quest in the game super-stupid and flash a big warning dialog in front of their faces about entering an area where you MIGHT DIE?

You know how many times the freakin Fire bomber killed me and my party the first time we did Blown to Bits? Did we come crying to the forums about it? No! it's supposed to be **** hard... then we realized he had a tell, and suddenly I can solo the fire bomber at level on a toon with leap/Abundant step.

As for me being selfish; I don't want Normal or Casual to be more difficult, therefore I am clearly not being selfish I believe the game should cater to as many skillsets and interests as it reasonably can, including those who need more challenges. You on the other hand want casuals to be able to run Elite with some measure of success, which means it would be IMPOSSIBLE to challenge the players that setting is intended to challenge. This is the very reason for the existence of difficulty settings, you are not entitled to run Elite if you can't handle it... there are 4 settings. If Normal is too easy well that's a matter to bring up and discuss with the Dev's but clearly they can not make a "just right" setting for every single player as much as they might like to.

[IronClan]

I said Heroic Elite not Epic Elite. What these changes mean for casuals and new players is that in order to do Heroic Elite, you will need to be over leveled or have multiple past lives. And you can kiss doing any favor runs goodbye. And forget about getting 5000 favors unless your playing a min/max toon.

I don't mind a challenge but being one-shot by a non boss doesn't seem fun to me at all.

And how is anything I said any less selfish than those who wanted it to be more difficult?

Pot meet kettle.

First of all this "one shot" madness is the result of someone going into an EXTREME CHALLENGE quest with a very specific damage mechanic that amps up the incoming damage, and then deciding that Champions are garbage because he did it wrong and can't understand what the words "extreme challenge" might entail. Again the failure is on the players expectations. What does Turbine need to do? make every quest in the game super-stupid and flash a big warning dialog in front of their faces about entering an area where you MIGHT DIE?

You know how many times the freakin Fire bomber killed me and my party the first time we did Blown to Bits? Did we come crying to the forums about it? No! it's supposed to be **** hard... then we realized he had a tell, and suddenly I can solo the fire bomber at level on a toon with leap/Abundant step.

As for me being selfish; I don't want Normal or Casual to be more difficult, therefore I am clearly not being selfish I believe the game should cater to as many skillsets and interests as it reasonably can, including those who need more challenges. You on the other hand want casuals to be able to run Elite with some measure of success, which means it would be IMPOSSIBLE to challenge the players that setting is intended to challenge.

[BD_]

this must be the issue than. ive been running around doing elite level 15 and 16 quests at level and only a couple Champions I fought longer than 5 seconds doing minimal damage to me on a squish rogue. it must be the epic scaling in epics, but I didn't read anything about these kinds of damage numbers from any of the Lama threads. maybe in a couple days ill see these 6k damage numbers.

I wasn't seeing 6k hits, but 300-900 with 500-600 being the norm (after slightly over 100 (50%) PRR) Compared to most EE bosses hitting for about 200-300 and most EE raid bosses hitting about 300-600 (against the same PRR).

[Scrabbler]

First of all this "one shot" madness is the result of someone going into an EXTREME CHALLENGE quest with a very specific damage mechanic that amps up the incoming damage, and then deciding that Champions are garbage because he did it wrong and can't understand what the words "extreme challenge" might entail. Again the failure is on the players expectations.
Nope: The failure is of the developers who made Champions appear at equal rates among all non-redname enemies, regardless of if the monsters are ordinary trash mobs waiting in hallways, or ambushers spawning into a locked room where the player has already taken a scripted debuff for double damage.

When testing Terminal Delirium on Hard and Elite, it was clear that adding Monster Champions into scenarios like the mirror room was a mistake.

And by the way, the words "Extreme Challenge" refer to an unusual puzzle or requirement to split up the party. It does not mean the combat should be extra hard; if the combat is going to be that much harder than appropriate for this level, then the dungeon should be released as a higher level.

(It's also a failure of the designers incorrectly skipping Champions on Normal, and giving Champions different sets of buffs on Hard and Elite).



As for me being selfish; I don't want Normal or Casual to be more difficult, therefore I am clearly not being selfish I believe the game should cater to as many skillsets and interests as it reasonably can
Trying to deny other players from having the fun of Monster Champions might not be literally "selfish", but it's not a good position to hold.

If Monster Champions are a good addition on Hard, they would also be good on Normal; just like Normal monster should have spellcasting, and sneak attack, and constitution drain, and every other special effect except inflated stat numbers.

Remember the sequence of what happened here: The designers thought that Epic Elite was too difficult, so they buffed PRR, MRR, and Bard/Paladin characters to be able to handle it safely.
This has the side effect of making every difficulty below Epic Elite too easy, which includes Heroic Normal and Epic Normal.
To get back some of the lost difficulty, they add Monster Champions.
But Monster Champions never appear on Heroic Normal or Epic Normal, meaning that the lost difficulty on those two settings has not been recovered.
People who wanted a difficulty level around where Normal was 6 months ago have nothing to do.

[Kipling]

If one difficulty level is too hard for you, pick the next lower!

"the more you know"

You are not entitled to be death free in EE or cake walk through EH without ever failing. The difficulty levels serve an important purpose, by insisting that the hardest levels be free of challenge or danger, you're quite literally ruining the game for people who need more danger and challenge than you do. Whats more you're selfishly refusing to use the provided lower levels and thoughtlessly worsening the game for those who do not have a harder level they can choose.

OR perhaps worse you're forcing the Developers to make a 5th difficulty level and wasting a whole lot of time converting content and making another "higher level" so that all the people who SHOULDN'T BE PLAYING EE OR EVEN EH can then gradually feel entitled to complain about how hard "Super-duper" is and get it nerfed down to the point where they can breeze through it in turn...

Time to end this madness.

If you come to the Forum and say EE is too hard... You belong in EH... if EH is too hard, you need to select EN... Apparently this simple process is unknown to some people. You do not get to furiously rant about how the "too hard" part should be dumbed down for you... you're being selfish and entitled and ruining the game for people who desire challenge but do not have any choices that are harder than Elite.

-Signed Someone who PUG's EE's every night yet hasn't been in a Party wipe in 5 or 6 months (that didn't involve lag).

As a community service I would like to suggest that all posts of complaint about "such and such is too hard" be met with the following polite response:

Did you try the next lower difficulty?


This makes too much sense. My party jumped into an EE quest and wiped. Rueful laughter, we were not ready. Repaired an ran EH. Success

[Vulkoorex]

First of all this "one shot" madness is the result of someone going into an EXTREME CHALLENGE quest with a very specific damage mechanic that amps up the incoming damage, and then deciding that Champions are garbage because he did it wrong and can't understand what the words "extreme challenge" might entail. Again the failure is on the players expectations. What does Turbine need to do? make every quest in the game super-stupid and flash a big warning dialog in front of their faces about entering an area where you MIGHT DIE?

You know how many times the freakin Fire bomber killed me and my party the first time we did Blown to Bits? Did we come crying to the forums about it? No! it's supposed to be **** hard... then we realized he had a tell, and suddenly I can solo the fire bomber at level on a toon with leap/Abundant step.

As for me being selfish; I don't want Normal or Casual to be more difficult, therefore I am clearly not being selfish I believe the game should cater to as many skillsets and interests as it reasonably can, including those who need more challenges. You on the other hand want casuals to be able to run Elite with some measure of success, which means it would be IMPOSSIBLE to challenge the players that setting is intended to challenge.

So what's wrong with my idea of having a check box to add Monster Champions to their instance / quest for those who want a more challenging experience?

Thus the casuals are happy and the veterans are happy.

[Qhualor]

And by the way, the words "Extreme Challenge" refer to an unusual puzzle or requirement to split up the party. It does not mean the combat should be extra hard; if the combat is going to be that much harder than appropriate for this level, then the dungeon should be released as a higher level.

Extreme Challenge says and I quote:

This is an Extreme Challenge

It contains extreme difficulty monsters or puzzles.

This dungeon is an extreme challenge.

It is recommended for player groups who have easily defeated other dungeons of the same CR rating already.

The CR rating is displayed in the Select Adventure Panel when you interact with a dungeon.

If you are having trouble in this dungeon, remember you can buy extra supplies in the DDO store.

end quote.

you see this pop up before even selecting the difficulty.

[Qhualor]

So what's wrong with my idea of having a check box to add Monster Champions to their instance / quest for those who want a more challenging experience?

Thus the casuals are happy and the veterans are happy.

because of the path of least resistance.

[Brendael]

Adding champions is a real dumb idea - it doesn't solve the power disparity between casuals and hardcores. Yea so you think EE/EH was too easy, you add Champions and now? What vets find a tad harder, casuals find it impossible. Eventually the hardcores will be able to stomp through the champions, while the power disparity amplifies and the casuals get left behind, further.

Removing scaling, as in making the quest having full scaling whether you solo or full party, should have been the way to go.

Stop crying. Everything will be alright.

I was running on my second life untwinked druid last night in pugs and didn't die once because as a party we were being careful. You don't run headlong into a group of 3 or 4 champions thinking your flavour of the month Paladin is going to run through them like a hot knife through butter. You apply a bit of crowd control and ranged damage to soften them up a bit. Use some bluff to get them alone. A healer in the party also helps.

Elite difficulties now require some tactics. This is a massive improvement. It is not a lack of past lives or gear causing you to die - it is a lack of adaptibility and thinking.

[Vulkoorex]

because of the path of least resistance.

And the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

[axel15810]

So what's wrong with my idea of having a check box to add Monster Champions to their instance / quest for those who want a more challenging experience?

Thus the casuals are happy and the veterans are happy.

It's too much work for the devs. That's basically asking for a 5th and 6th difficulty option. We have 4 options already - casual, normal, hard and elite. If you don't want champions run normal or casual. Besides, this is supposed to be a new feature in the game. Not an optional one. The whole point of champions was to cancel out some of the big power creep we've had the past couple updates (new ship buffs, orchard gear, pally buff, bard buff, heavy armor buff, ect.) that had made the game too easy. Making them optional in every difficulty would defeat the purpose of creating them in the first place.

[IronClan]

So what's wrong with my idea of having a check box to add Monster Champions to their instance / quest for those who want a more challenging experience?

Thus the casuals are happy and the veterans are happy.

Why not have check boxes for everything? Like so:

EE
[ ] Champions
[X] XP
[X] Loot
[ ] Monsters
[ ] Bosses
[ ] Traps
[ ] Puzzles

See what I did there?

People who don't want Champions don't want challenge... lack of challenge is readily available in the mode we call Normal... no need to waste Dev manhours making new UI elements and changing how Champions are seeded. Your check box already exists, two of them in fact.

Unless there's something unspoken going on here.... Like you know: feeling entitled to play EH or EE and get maximum XP with no challenge? Wanting all content to be 100% memorizable so it can be run extremely fast without inconvenient unpredictable challenges getting in the way.

Could it be what people are really objecting to is that they can no longer get max XP for minimum time/risk of failure?

BTW Scrabbler: I'm perfectly fine with Champions being added to Normal mode please don't put words in my post I put too many of them in myself already. However I'd assumed that this would be disagreeable to the people who want easy content options.

[Brendael]

So what's wrong with my idea of having a check box to add Monster Champions to their instance / quest for those who want a more challenging experience?

Thus the casuals are happy and the veterans are happy.

What is wrong with your idea is that you want all the benefits (XP, streak, and loot) of running Elite difficulty without doing the work to earn it. You are not automatically entitled to your elite streak - you now need to earn it.

Run on Hard if Elite is too hard. What is so difficult to understand?

[ufo2013]

What is wrong with your idea is that you want all the benefits (XP, streak, and loot) of running Elite difficulty without doing the work to earn it. You are not automatically entitled to your elite streak - you now need to earn it.

Run on Hard if Elite is too hard. What is so difficult to understand?

On my uber completionist toon with multiple epic past lives and uber gear, elite is still a joke. It is not harder, just takes more time. Meanwhile, my untwinked gimped toon faces more challenge, but without any reward.

[FranOhmsford]

What is wrong with your idea is that you want all the benefits (XP, streak, and loot) of running Elite difficulty without doing the work to earn it. You are not automatically entitled to your elite streak - you now need to earn it.

Run on Hard if Elite is too hard. What is so difficult to understand?

Today I put up an LFM on a F2P character {alt account I need to farm favour on for WF}.

It was Prime Time {11pm thereabouts GMT} on Cannith.

The Character was Level 9 and the LFM was Lvl 6-9 Waterworks - Need Elite Opener.

I then spent the next 10-15 minutes creating a Lvl 7 opener on my main account and you know how many people hit my LFM in those 10-15 minutes?
NO-ONE!

You know how many other LFMs were up during that time for that character's Lvl range?
TWO!
One was for Caverns of Korromar Elite BB {Think the other was a dead lfm with no leader!}.


I had the option to Dual-Box with an opener from my main account BUT for players who are ON their main account and can't open Elite that option isn't available!

And when no-one joins their Normal or Hard runs they join Elite runs and we get complaints both from them AND from the leaders and other players in the Groups they joined!

[FranOhmsford]

On my uber completionist toon with multiple epic past lives and uber gear, elite is still a joke. It is not harder, just takes more time. Meanwhile, my untwinked gimped toon faces more challenge, but without any reward.

Again - We have the issue of the Devs trying to cater to too many different Player Skill and Character Power levels at the same time!

The insistence on pushing Elite BB has caused this and there's really no way to get back what we had!


Well there is one way but unfortunately that would mean the Ubers having to wait for their challenge!

That Challenge should be provided for with End-Game content!



I will say however that - apart from some issues with DRs and weapons breaking - Champions don't seem to be all that much of an issue in low level content.
I would like to see their numbers scaled back {a lot!} and the remaining Champions boosted a bit yes.
I would like to see Champion Crowns ONLY on mobs that actually deserve to have that crown {Champion Oozes in Waterworks is just wrong!}

BUT

The difficulty of those quests doesn't seem to have changed tbh.

[Izumar]

So disappointed that these champs are just default brutes. Lost chance to help rebalance the game by making them more focused on killing the cheese builds that have helped cause all of this.

Where are the drain construct+stun construct champs? How about some high damage light spammers to one shot the necro splashes. lots of arrow deflection and the like. Maybe throw in some unholy paladin killers.

Instead they seem to be picking on the same old classes.

[Eth]

And by the way, the words "Extreme Challenge" refer to an unusual puzzle or requirement to split up the party.
Like the "Extreme Challenge" tag for Devil Assault? :)
So many puzzles and split ups in there.

[Brendael]

On my uber completionist toon with multiple epic past lives and uber gear, elite is still a joke. It is not harder, just takes more time. Meanwhile, my untwinked gimped toon faces more challenge, but without any reward.

I am not sure what your point is? A more mature characer with the best gear finds content easier than a new character with no gear. That is a bit obvious.

[Scrabbler]

Like the "Extreme Challenge" tag for Devil Assault?
That tag is in error, as is the one for Kobold Assault.

[Thar]

If one difficulty level is too hard for you, pick the next lower!

"the more you know"

You are not entitled to be death free in EE or cake walk through EH without ever failing. The difficulty levels serve an important purpose, by insisting that the hardest levels be free of challenge or danger, you're quite literally ruining the game for people who need more danger and challenge than you do. Whats more you're selfishly refusing to use the provided lower levels and thoughtlessly worsening the game for those who do not have a harder level they can choose.

OR perhaps worse you're forcing the Developers to make a 5th difficulty level and wasting a whole lot of time converting content and making another "higher level" so that all the people who SHOULDN'T BE PLAYING EE OR EVEN EH can then gradually feel entitled to complain about how hard "Super-duper" is and get it nerfed down to the point where they can breeze through it in turn...

Time to end this madness.

If you come to the Forum and say EE is too hard... You belong in EH... if EH is too hard, you need to select EN... Apparently this simple process is unknown to some people. You do not get to furiously rant about how the "too hard" part should be dumbed down for you... you're being selfish and entitled and ruining the game for people who desire challenge but do not have any choices that are harder than Elite.

-Signed Someone who PUG's EE's every night yet hasn't been in a Party wipe in 5 or 6 months (that didn't involve lag).

As a community service I would like to suggest that all posts of complaint about "such and such is too hard" be met with the following polite response:

Did you try the next lower difficulty?

I disagree. If you are prepared and have a well rounded group with past lives and gear, EE is possible and was possible without deaths. This was before rebalancing and making melee easy. You couldn't play stupid and win. Making Champoins pop every 3 steps is not a challenge, it's a time sink and resource drain that the quests aren't designed for with rest shrines and etc. STK mob having 1000 hp... reallly?

This isn't about EE or EN. Sagas were built to encourage Ee play. This is about oops we over did it with the PRR/MRR pass and we can't back it out for fear of the rage. Almost no one on Lam said the champions were ready to go as implemented. A few a quest is one thing. A few every 10 feet is ridiculous.

I have no problem with a challenge. I have a problem with mobs insta killing pc's randomly as it's not balanced to the level or content. EE mobs should NEVER hit for 1800 pts of damage. Why... Because that isn't a challenge. that is just a time waste. Wasting time = fustration = people leaving the game for more well designed content. I need 8 billion xp for my epic completionist goals across various toons and getting this **** in quests isn't making it fun or challenging its uttlerly annoying and a adrenalined mob instakilling just wastes my time. This is the worst implementation of new game design i've seen in the game in years and I've been through the stormhorns/item redesign, dungeon alert, etc.

[Buddha5440]

Having read through many, many threads and posts it seems one of the biggest complaints people have about the champions is their spawn rate. So far, in the quests I've run, HH and EH mainly, these Champions account for somewhere between 30-40% of all the mobs. Champions seem to be a good idea, just vastly over-spawning.

champion



n.noun

One that wins first place or first prize in a competition.
One that is clearly superior or has the attributes of a winner.

a champion at teaching.
An ardent defender or supporter of a cause or another person.

a champion of the homeless.
One who fights; a warrior.

Of these definitions, only #4 would account for more than ~5%
#1 Would mean only 1 per group
#2 Would mean, at best, a minority of the group
#3 Doesn't apply
#4 Would not justify ~40% of the warriors in a group having extraordinary abilities

[FranOhmsford]

That tag is in error, as is the one for Kobold Assault.

No - Those tags aren't in error at all!

DA on Norm wipes more at level parties than any Base Lvl 6 Elite quest {not raid} you care to mention!

Kobold Assault was an Extreme Challenge back in the day and still is for newbies even now - Remember it is only a base Lvl 3 quest and the Extreme Challenge status does not change the base level of the quest!


I've always found the hardest difficulty for DA btw is Heroic Hard - many Lvl 12 characters aren't really equipped for what they face in there while Lvl 18 groups roflstomp Heroic Elite!


If you want a real Extreme Challenge example that has nothing to do with puzzles or quest objectives though - You only have to look at Proof is in the Poison!

The Devs could up Proof's base level to 5 and it wouldn't make the blindest bit of difference - There isn't a single base lvl 5 quest more difficult than that Lvl 4 Quest!
There's base lvl 7 and 8 quests that are much easier!

[Eth]

I have no problem with a challenge. I have a problem with mobs insta killing pc's randomly as it's not balanced to the level or content. EE mobs should NEVER hit for 1800 pts of damage.
Do they? From what I've seen they hit me for 400 -600. That's was on a 70ish PRR toon.

I think people confuse this to much with champions in the new delirium quest. There is a debuff that dramatically increases incoming physical damage.
The combination of the debuff and champions produce those numbers.

[Taskmage]

I have two major problems with the entire champion thing:

a) For all those that complained the game was to easy nothing has changed.
Nothing.
They are still to overpowerd to even notice the champs (wait till you got used to the champs and answer to this in a few weeks).

b) The randomness is the killer.
Lets take for exmaple GoP, we duoed it (EH):
Run 1: Some of the ghost that spawned at the ice statues were champs...nice fight, had to heal. A champ ice flencer while fighting with the doomsphere? Just ignore it.
Run 2: Three champ zombies? So what. A champ lich while fighting the doomsphere that blasts us for 600+ area force damage (with 50+ mrr, if that even migitates it) every two seconds while the sphere drains our con...wipe.

Next we did fleshmakers (EH):
Ok, careful, the room with Eddy, three rednamed champs - 10 seconds later - why did we even stop to think about the champs, lets kill Eddy.

What the champs have achieved is making the quests unpredicable. On one run you have no problem, on the next no chance. Depending on the quest, and what mobs get the crown, you will either make it or not. And while some will say this is good, is it not. It is not about how good you play, how good your build is, what gear you have - it is simply about luck. At least for the majority of the players, those that had a hard time in EE content. Not beeing able to complete a quest one time but the other will lead to frustration. And a game should not be frustrating.

So, on the bottom line, what did the champs change:
- Elitist players are still boored. At least the will be in a week.
- Those that still have to farm xp (for past lifes or epic destinies) will have to invest a lot more time. Either by running normal/hard with lower streak bonus and less base xp, or by repeating quests that failed due to some unlucky dice roll during quest generation.
- No real point to further work on the toon. "you" wont ever get powerful enough to do EH reliably, and don't bother to think about EE. So why improve the toon, except for "just because". No targets left to aim for. Before EE was 'in range' for most players, even so only a fraction of those was able to solo it. Now soloing is out, and groups...well...unless you are in a big guild with experienced players, nope. Not your fruit.

The champs will do _nothing_ good for the game. Even those that like them now will find them anoying in a week or two. The game will be stuck where it was, just with less motivated players and less to achieve for most.

Well, perhaps i'm in the wrong game. I like a challenge now and then, but i want to *choose* if i want a challenge. THAT is what the difficulty selection is for. And that is what has been taken away. For me personally this means i have the choice between 'Nothing even remotely interesting' (normal) and 'Roll a dice and be lucky or fail' (hard). Not even talking about elite. I didn't run EE quests, simply because i'm not up to the challange. Now most of the time my only choice is to select normal. So since i ran hard most of the time, what the champs achieved for me is to take away about 90% of the content i wanted to play.

Gues i'll look for other things to do over the next three weeks of holliday. Still got that half-finished C++ OpenGL game engine i began writing several months ago, perhaps i could continue to work on it...

So, after a second thought, thanks for the champs. Saves me money and now i have the time to do something different.

[BD_]

Do they? From what I've seen they hit me for 400 -600. That's was on a 70ish PRR toon.

I think people confuse this to much with champions in the new delirium quest. There is a debuff that dramatically increases incoming physical damage.
The combination of the debuff and champions produce those numbers.

Slightly over 100 PRR in EE GH did the entire saga, champion mobs were usually hitting me for 400-600 but quite often as much as 800-900 and never for less than 300 (297). Even 400-600 on a 70 PRR char is excessive, that's more than almost all EE bosses hit for.

[Eth]

Slightly over 100 PRR in EE GH did the entire saga, champion mobs were usually hitting me for 400-600 but quite often as much as 800-900 and never for less than 300 (297). Even 400-600 on a 70 PRR char is excessive, that's more than almost all EE bosses hit for.

My numbers are from the mask of deception quest.
Although GH is lower in level, it always had some of the hardest hitting mobs compared to all the later released packs. So sounds to me as it is in scale.
Damage might be a bit over the top, but as long as getting one-shotted doesn't become a standard I find it OK.

[BD_]

My numbers are from the mask of deception quest.
Although GH is lower in level, it always had some of the hardest hitting mobs compared to all the later released packs. So sounds to me as it is in scale.
Damage might be a bit over the top, but as long as getting one-shotted doesn't become a standard I find it OK.

600-700 hps chars were getting one hit fairly often, I never got one hit but came very close several times. I still think it is "wrong" (both for gameplay reasons and for lore/immersion reasons) for random "trash" mobs to hit harder than most bosses and raid bosses. IMO champion buffs should be more random, almost all have TS and adrenaline ("I hit harder"); champion spawn rate should be 1/4 to 1/2 what it is now, champions with adrenaline should hit about half as hard as they do now (at least in EE haven't played any other difficulties since patch), respawning mobs should never be champions - and there should be severe limits to the number of champions at boss fights and other "special" fights - they're already special and shouldn't need extra random champions.

I think the champion idea/system has potential but is very poorly implemented - read my thread/post if you really want to see what I think about them...

[thakorian]

I think returning to the way Epic used to be, which was EN the normal sometimes EH and almost never EE for PuGs, is a good thing, so I'm hopeful and like the change.


Back during old epics when I was still a filthy casual, me and a friend used to pride ourselves for being able to take any pug through epic devils assault without having to hide in any corner. Me on palemaster and him on fvs.

I think any increase in elite difficulties is great, because that gives players more incentive to get better. Gotta have other goals than just acquiring that next level yo.


edit: It does seem as though personally I'm somewhat more reluctant to pug heroic elites at least than previously, due to champions hp scaling with added party members. Champions also seem a bit deadly to your average pugger.

[Tokeri]

well said in the original post Ironclan.

its interesting how a lot of the threads about champions contains post's that seem to speak for a large majority of players that are unhappy with the update while its still only one guy behind the post instead of some actual feedback.
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/782/935/ce2.png

i get it the xp/min efficiency and the hassle of having to deal with something annoying as a double damage fort bypassing death warded true seeing dog from hell as a caster is near impossible that's why you got other meat bags on your team to help you out with that, im not trying to say this is the ideal way i think champions should work i think they need a bit of a tweak as well. i also think these champions is one of the most interesting gameplay elements added to the game in a very long time, i don't enjoy zerging 20 quests with both hands tied behind my back in an evening, much like the snore fest ddo have been for the last year or so and even longer for some. but i would honestly like to see them removing or reworking bravery bonus to remove the stigma of running normals then to dumb down the game again to the point where it might as well be a facebook cookie clicker
its quite sad to see other old timers of the game shoot this mechanic down before its even been live for 24hours. criticism is good but foretelling the future in a crystal ball and speaking for others about doom and gloom is a bit much, given some time to adjust to champions and i bet even the most casual joe bob and anna will be running elites again albeit a little bit more cautious.

i may have trampled on some toes here but this is how i perceive the current salt on the boards.

[walkin_dude]

After reading these forums pretty regularly for almost four years, I have to say that there is absolutely nothing that the DDO developers can do that will be appreciated.

forums: The game requires grouping and roles. Waaah. Waaah.

developers: Okay, we hear you.

Game gets more solo friendly

forums: bards and paladins suck. Waaah. Waaah.

developers: Okay, we hear you.

Classes are reviewed and improved

forums: the game's too easy, and bards and paladins are OP. Waaah. Waaah.

developers: Okay, we hear you.

Targeted nerf cycle begins, starting with Holy Sword spell. Champion mobs added to the game.

forums: the game's too hard! I can't sleep-walk through elite any more! WAAAH! WAAAH!

Oh.

My.

God.

Does anyone try, oh, I dunno, let's say "trying to adjust tactics" or "reviewing possibility of lower difficulty setting" before starting the whine-fest?

I've been in situations before where I wanted to play in a group and the only group was doing something EE. In my heart of hearts, I knew that the toon I was logged into wasn't up to EE, but there weren't any other groups adveretising, so I joined. After one quest, in that situation I would have to admit that I didn't need to be in that party, and I'd cordially drop group so they could get someone useful in there. Does it sting the ego a little? Sure. But in the long run, it was better for them and for me.

But at the end of the day, I think that 15 minutes after the update goes live is a little early to be whining that champions are terrible and all these other things that people have been spewing. You want to know what a grind is? It's trying to keep a positive attitude while reading these forums. Crikey.

[MonadRebelion]

Great job on that quest. I ran it twice today. Love the floor puzzles. The mirror room fight is awesome with monster champions. It seems like you can get lucky and get relatively few champions in that fight, and its not so bad. It also seems like you can get unlucky and get a lot of champions. I absolutely love this element of randomness. The only thing I don't like about the monster champions at this point is the extra chests. There are too many extra chests. I did a short run of Haunted Halls and got about 15 extra chests. That seems like way too many to me. It made the dungeon feel less dnd-like, and more video game-like.


I don't know how this got added as a reply to this thread. I was trying to start a new thread.

[Paleus]

Almost every champion mob (in EE GH) I encountered hit harder than most EE raid bosses.

I will admit that I didn't have enough play time yesterday to evaluate champions outside of some heroic elite questing. Nevertheless, every time I see this statement posted about Champions being tougher than bosses I kind of wonder if that means the bosses should be scaled up.

I'll admit, doing that may require some balancing of champions with other quest elements that I can't figure out myself. But old epics kind of felt like quests full of champions where it wasn't a steamroll and people used to have to do things around bosses like actually dodge a face-full of dragon fire instead of standing in it pressing auto-attack. Seems like a pendulum swing back towards that which is a good thing. Games like this need challenge not mindless repetition (leave that to candy crush).

One exception that I'll note is back then epics were only about advancement through loot. Which people could be left out of without it impacting the rest of their gameplay. There, all of the end-game challenge was tightly contained in an actual static top level. Now, epics and most of the game are about advancement through leveling a character. And so all of the end-game challenge gets spread out across the entire game, impacting end-game and non endgame player alike. So, I don't find champions to be the problem, I find designing the game to have "TRing be end-game" to be the problem that makes balancing the game for separate player populations difficult.

[phillymiket]

Back during old epics when I was still a filthy casual, me and a friend used to pride ourselves for being able to take any pug through epic devils assault without having to hide in any corner. Me on palemaster and him on fvs.

I think any increase in elite difficulties is great, because that gives players more incentive to get better. Gotta have other goals than just acquiring that next level yo.


edit: It does seem as though personally I'm somewhat more reluctant to pug heroic elites at least than previously, due to champions hp scaling with added party members. Champions also seem a bit deadly to your average pugger.

Yeah.

Only thing is back then the difference between Those That Ran E and Those That Didn't was skill.

Maybe people had a few past lives, etc (with exceptions, of course, who were rare and treated with awe and wonder) but that's about it.

My Superior Potency VI item was as good as yours.

All my first life toon lacked was some GS for extra HP and SP and a few build points.

My Firewall was basically as Firewally as yours even if I was pretty new.

Now the difference between a 1st life and a Vet is vast and effects all elements of gameplay from far better offense and defense, to huge diffences in HP and SP, grand gulfs between spell DC, etc etc etc.

So it's not at all the same as it was when just "learning the ropes" was enough to hang with the big boys.

[Neomarica]

And by the way, the words "Extreme Challenge" refer to an unusual puzzle or requirement to split up the party. It does not mean the combat should be extra hard; if the combat is going to be that much harder than appropriate for this level, then the dungeon should be released as a higher level.

No, it very much does NOT refer to that. It refers to things that have a high chance of killing ill-prepared characters - like extra hard combat or large numbers of enemies with few to no rest shrines.

[TheLegendOfAra]

I'm always skeptical of forum, and in game cries of "It's to hard!", or "It's to OP!" less than a week after the update.
Why?

Shroud blades.
When the changed Shroud blades, people lost their collective sh*t.
Every time I ran that raid for a week or so after that change was 11 other random Puggers crying over how hard the blade made the quest.
After that first week? The good guilds, and good players came up with a strategy for blades and suddenly the rage was lessened as those ideas were posted on the forums and spread in game.

Granted they tweaked the blades after and made them just right, but in that first week?
No one had enough single handed experience, and there as no way to quantify the collective experience at that point to make any real judgement calls.

This is very much a similar situation where people are upset things have changed, and are reacting poorly, and in most cases are not even willing to give things a real shot. Not willing to learn new strategies, or tactics until someone else comes up with them first. Literally every single post on the forums today about champions have been purely reactionary. Simply no one has had enough time spent in game with these to fully appreciate what they are, how to deal with them, and how to tweak them.

Give it a week or so, and then come back with some actual feedback. Come back with some statistics, strategies, and a cool head.

[dunklezhan]

I for one am perfectly comfortable giving up my elite streak.

[Weemadarthur]

I have yet to experience this myself from Champions, but its all too common to get one shotted by disintegrate from non Champion mobs like beholders.

ive seen the posts that Champions are dealing triple the amount of damage that any "normal" hp character would have, but so far haven't seen it. didn't see this on Lamma either. if this is true, than it should be fixed. Champions should not be able to hit harder than an end quest boss, but they should hit no harder than a mini boss.

I would like to start by saying that what comes next is NOT a complaint.

In response to the above I joined a few of my guildies last night running one of the new quests on EE (The Delerium one in the inn @ the 12) and we died numerous times due to being one shot for 3-6k by the champion mobs. The champions in the new content on EE are brutal. They are tough to kill and hit HARD!!!

Without the champions I feel this quest would have been completable for us (a party of 3.5 toons (3 decent toons with past lives and gear + me pretty much being forced to offtank due to gimpiness and only being lvl 22)) but with champions it became what I remember elite being like when I 1st started playing (in 2006). Will it become completable for us? I would believe so as we get used to the quests quirks and peculiarities and lvl and gear our toons but I cant ever see it being the easy cakewalk that EE orchard was (I say was as havent tried it with champs yet so could very well re-evaluate my oppinion of easy orchard when I go back in).

In short I feel this is a great step in the right direction where difficulty is concerned and am looking forward to getting my toon to cap again so I can see how he fares then. I would also like to put my support towards the if its too hard knock it down a difficulty sentiment that others have aired. I am not normally an EE player and would like to feel that when I do complete EE's its because I have improved enough (whether it be gear, build or knowledge) that I am accomplishing something.

[letour]

If one difficulty level is too hard for you, pick the next lower!

"the more you know"

You are not entitled to be death free in EE or cake walk through EH without ever failing. The difficulty levels serve an important purpose, by insisting that the hardest levels be free of challenge or danger, you're quite literally ruining the game for people who need more danger and challenge than you do. Whats more you're selfishly refusing to use the provided lower levels and thoughtlessly worsening the game for those who do not have a harder level they can choose.

OR perhaps worse you're forcing the Developers to make a 5th difficulty level and wasting a whole lot of time converting content and making another "higher level" so that all the people who SHOULDN'T BE PLAYING EE OR EVEN EH can then gradually feel entitled to complain about how hard "Super-duper" is and get it nerfed down to the point where they can breeze through it in turn...

Time to end this madness.

If you come to the Forum and say EE is too hard... You belong in EH... if EH is too hard, you need to select EN... Apparently this simple process is unknown to some people. You do not get to furiously rant about how the "too hard" part should be dumbed down for you... you're being selfish and entitled and ruining the game for people who desire challenge but do not have any choices that are harder than Elite.

-Signed Someone who PUG's EE's every night yet hasn't been in a Party wipe in 5 or 6 months (that didn't involve lag).

As a community service I would like to suggest that all posts of complaint about "such and such is too hard" be met with the following polite response:

Did you try the next lower difficulty?

What if epic normal is sometime to hard for you? Going casual, but this is story mode (give absolutly no xp and no gear drop here). I have to agree that elite and hard should have champ monster, but not normal (some poeple on the forum report champ monster on normal).

[walkin_dude]

What if epic normal is sometime to hard for you? Going casual, but this is story mode (give absolutly no xp and no gear drop here). I have to agree that elite and hard should have champ monster, but not normal (some poeple on the forum report champ monster on normal).

Heroic normal difficulty is not supposed to have champion mobs. I believe hard, elite, eN, eH, and eE are all fair game. That was my understanding from reading the release notes.

[IronClan]

Heroic normal difficulty is not supposed to have champion mobs. I believe hard, elite, eN, eH, and eE are all fair game. That was my understanding from reading the release notes.

There's no champs on Epic Normal, any you run into should be bug reported.

I agree with the sentiment that as the dust settles not only will champions become easier they will be tweaked downward in power and numbers and we'll end up with them underpowered as a result and be right back where we were.

If EH and EE are to be where Casuals get their XP and loot from without Champs mucking up their easy completions: WHAT SETTING AM I SUPPOSED TO RUN FOR CHALLENGE? Answer that with genuine self honestly. You are demanding that ALL FOUR settings cater to the lowest common denominator... The arrogance of that is breath taking!

[HAL]

There's no champs on Epic Normal, any you run into should be bug reported.

I agree with the sentiment that as the dust settles not only will champions become easier they will be tweaked downward in power and numbers and we'll end up with them underpowered as a result and be right back where we were.

If EH and EE are to be where Casuals get their XP and loot from without Champs mucking up their easy completions: WHAT SETTING AM I SUPPOSED TO RUN FOR CHALLENGE? Answer that with genuine self honestly. You are demanding that ALL FOUR settings cater to the lowest common denominator... The arrogance of that is breath taking!

Doesn't look to me like he's asking for anything in that post...

However, arrogance goes both ways: players with Uber characters are asking for content to be made more difficult which will often result in those who already find the hardest difficulty challenging to lose Favor, loot, and XP by having to run a lower difficulty.

[Braegan]

Do they? From what I've seen they hit me for 400 -600. That's was on a 70ish PRR toon.

I think people confuse this to much with champions in the new delirium quest. There is a debuff that dramatically increases incoming physical damage.
The combination of the debuff and champions produce those numbers.

That could very well be. I've run Terminal a few times and noticed large hits, but it was clear that it's due to the debuff you get becoming a mirror AND a big hit that produced numbers not commonly found in other areas.

[walkin_dude]

There's no champs on Epic Normal, any you run into should be bug reported.

I agree with the sentiment that as the dust settles not only will champions become easier they will be tweaked downward in power and numbers and we'll end up with them underpowered as a result and be right back where we were.

If EH and EE are to be where Casuals get their XP and loot from without Champs mucking up their easy completions: WHAT SETTING AM I SUPPOSED TO RUN FOR CHALLENGE? Answer that with genuine self honestly. You are demanding that ALL FOUR settings cater to the lowest common denominator... The arrogance of that is breath taking!

Heh, don't look at me. I've been saying in several posts in various threads that the word elite should mean something. I'll just assume you were posting at someone farther up the thread :) I'm happy to enjoy the champs.

[Tesrali]

If one difficulty level is too hard for you, pick the next lower!

"the more you know"

You are not entitled to be death free in EE or cake walk through EH without ever failing. The difficulty levels serve an important purpose, by insisting that the hardest levels be free of challenge or danger, you're quite literally ruining the game for people who need more danger and challenge than you do. Whats more you're selfishly refusing to use the provided lower levels and thoughtlessly worsening the game for those who do not have a harder level they can choose.

OR perhaps worse you're forcing the Developers to make a 5th difficulty level and wasting a whole lot of time converting content and making another "higher level" so that all the people who SHOULDN'T BE PLAYING EE OR EVEN EH can then gradually feel entitled to complain about how hard "Super-duper" is and get it nerfed down to the point where they can breeze through it in turn...

Time to end this madness.

If you come to the Forum and say EE is too hard... You belong in EH... if EH is too hard, you need to select EN... Apparently this simple process is unknown to some people. You do not get to furiously rant about how the "too hard" part should be dumbed down for you... you're being selfish and entitled and ruining the game for people who desire challenge but do not have any choices that are harder than Elite.

-Signed Someone who PUG's EE's every night yet hasn't been in a Party wipe in 5 or 6 months (that didn't involve lag).

As a community service I would like to suggest that all posts of complaint about "such and such is too hard" be met with the following polite response:

Did you try the next lower difficulty?

Huzzah, go back to EH (gets his elitist poker and pokes everyone)

[BoBoDaClown]

I love the changes, but for those that want a check-box:

1) Could add a check-box to epic hard, then add an xp bonus for killing champions. I do understand that people who don't like this change find being asked to do normal hard to take, simply because of how normal easy is. Some kind of irony there. So they do need an easier mode that requires you to notice the monsters. (i.e. old epic hard).

2) Another options could be to change casual to normal (but remove the half xp), normal to old hard, hard/elite remain as they are. They can increase xp rewards - i don't want people's xp penalised for running lower tiers than they are used to. However, I don't know if that would alienate some ultra casuals - I don't think I have ever met anyone who runs casual frequently. Certainly don't see it in the LFM.

Epic elite needs them, no checkbox... it's the hardest difficulty and had largely become a joke.

[HAL]

Epic elite needs them, no checkbox... it's the hardest difficulty and had largely become a joke.

Just curious: why do you want to deny some people the ability to run Elite without Champions? How does it affect you?

[Tokeri]

im sorry hal but i must ask what do you mean by deny them ? epic elite is there to be the hardest game mode in the game, to be able to opt out the champs from the hardest content just because some dont like them does not make a whole lot of sense it wont be the hardest content without champions
if its not to much of a hassle could you explain that reasoning?

[Sushiboat]

im sorry hal but i must ask what do you mean by deny them ? epic elite is there to be the hardest game mode in the game, to be able to opt out the champs from the hardest content just because some dont like them does not make a whole lot of sense it wont be the hardest content without champions
if its not to much of a hassle could you explain that reasoning?

Logically speaking, EE without champions would not the hardest difficulty, EE with champions would be.

HAL seems to be asking what someone gets by dictating how another player plays the game. If an option were to be created, how does that detract from anyone's ability to play the game how he/she wants?

[HAL]

Logically speaking, EE without champions would not the hardest difficulty, EE with champions would be.

There is already a precedent in the game - EE is the hardest except for Extreme Challenge quests which are even more difficult. So we would have EE and then people have the option to make it even more difficult by choosing to add Champions.


im sorry hal but i must ask what do you mean by deny them ? epic elite is there to be the hardest game mode in the game, to be able to opt out the champs from the hardest content just because some dont like them does not make a whole lot of sense it wont be the hardest content without champions
if its not to much of a hassle could you explain that reasoning?


HAL seems to be asking what someone gets by dictating how another player plays the game. If an option were to be created, how does that detract from anyone's ability to play the game how he/she wants?

Exactly. For the people who object to an option box, I would like to know what they gain if we don't have an option.

[phillymiket]

Just curious: why do you want to deny some people the ability to run Elite without Champions? How does it affect you?

I wonder this too?

Do people just want to separate their Uberness from the Great Unwashed Pack?

Back in the day, you could run Elite in party as a new person by hanging back a bit, it's just that it was better XP to run Norm. (faster runs, repeated, trumped slow Elite runs for most players back then)

Someone would teach you, most likely, back then.

Who will teach and wait now?

No one. The community doesn't do that anymore, for the most part.

Now you would be lucky to even glimpse the backsides of the 2 or 3 Completionists charging forward three rooms ahead of you.

Plus most of the LFMs were Normal or Hard then. Today practically none.

Normal was Normal then. Normal is Abnormal now?

How are we going to toss people back into Normal overnight without correcting why Normal isn't run in the first place?

Cart before horse.

Your situation in 2010 running Normal has nothing at all to do with the situation a new person today would face running Normal.

No point in even comparing 2014 DDO with 2010 DDO. It's a different game.

Fix the reason why things are the way they are and don't just cattle-shoot people into a clearly sub-par status without addressing the underlying issue.

[thakorian]

I wouldn't mind champions being optional given that running a quest with champions would have added chance of named items, provide better loot and higher xp, or maybe champion chests containing some specific loot that would not be available otherwise. Running more difficult content must be incentivized or there is no point.

Indeed, there should be a tickbox indicating "easymode".

[thakorian]

Doesn't look to me like he's asking for anything in that post...

However, arrogance goes both ways: players with Uber characters are asking for content to be made more difficult which will often result in those who already find the hardest difficulty challenging to lose Favor, loot, and XP by having to run a lower difficulty.

someone please tell me why people are entitled to gain access to max loots, max xp and max favor unless they are willing to struggle to get there. Isn't that what the game is about? Through hardships you earn better rewards?

Uber characters, I wonder how they got that way. Nowadays everyone gets a special trophy.

[Tokeri]

that could be an option aswell thakorian, but i cant agree with the notion of letting players opt out from risk/reward gameplay when the only reason given for that opt out is not liking it.
we all have to play by the rules given to us by turbine or the champions will quickly become a junk code gathering dust

edit ; id rather not let there be an opt out at all but if there are to be one risk/reward gameplay in the form of bonus something to make it apealing at all or maybe even a exp penalty for the opt out ?
im not a fan of adding even more inflated loot but something to make it worth it

[phillymiket]

Uber characters, I wonder how they got that way. Nowadays everyone gets a special trophy.

By blowing through content for the last few years using OP gear and powers.

The gear, powers and system remain as is.

Now those that come after us are simply excluded in a way that you, me, your whole guild to a one, and countless others were not.

Maybe i'm just being selfish?

Respectfully, Ominpresense will not be effected in any way.

But me, who doesn't want to be in a big guild, depends on PuGers to group with.

If the population drops even more then the game loses something for me.

If they simply got rid of, say, all Heroic Champions below level 12 and Heroic Hard Champions 12-19 that would at least give the semblance of a reasonable path for a new player to enjoy the game and progress to the point where they will hit or create an LFM and keep this thing going a while longer.

[BoBoDaClown]

Just curious: why do you want to deny some people the ability to run Elite without Champions? How does it affect you?

You're not "just curious". Loaded language... just make your point.

It's an online game where changes don't happen in isolation.

It affects me because so few people play I would probably end up grouping with non champion people a lot.

It also begs the question as to why I can't checkbox other stuff. You could make a fairly similar argument with a lot of changes that are made.

In the end, I wouldn't overly care, if there was an xp bonus. I guess it just comes from the type of language used, `epic elite', and how I think that should be hard. I late night pug, and outside of raids, I can't remember my last party wipe. That's grouping with whoever comes.

[HAL]

someone please tell me why people are entitled to gain access to max loots, max xp and max favor unless they are willing to struggle to get there. Isn't that what the game is about? Through hardships you earn better rewards?

Uber characters, I wonder how they got that way. Nowadays everyone gets a special trophy.

This is a game. I struggle in real life, I don't want to struggle in a game. Those who wish to struggle should definitely be given a difficulty level that makes them struggle, but don't take away the way I have been playing for a very long time. That is why I support the idea of an option for champions. Then the devs can make champions as hard as they want.

[HAL]

You're not "just curious". Loaded language... just make your point.

It's an online game where changes don't happen in isolation.

It affects me because so few people play I would probably end up grouping with non champion people a lot.

It also begs the question as to why I can't checkbox other stuff. You could make a fairly similar argument with a lot of changes that are made.

In the end, I wouldn't overly care, if there was an xp bonus. I guess it just comes from the type of language used, `epic elite', and how I think that should be hard. I late night pug, and outside of raids, I can't remember my last party wipe. That's grouping with whoever comes.

If people don't like champions or don't like champions in EE, the only other choice is to move down in difficulty. In your case that would mean in order to group you would have to move down in difficulty also. Is that preferable to at least grouping in EE but perhaps not with champions?

[FlaviusMaximus]

this is a post where you sit someone down, don't let them speak, tell it like it is and than send them to their room to think about it.

Teach me, papa bears.


Nowadays everyone gets a special trophy.

That's such a tired talking point.

[PermaBanned]

For the people who object to an option box, I would like to know what they gain if we don't have an option.Preemptive whining stoppage.

I don't want to put up an IP LFM for E/EE quests, have people join who get to the entrance and then say "What!? You selected with Champs? Nty by-by!" or worse yet not taking the moment to check the quest entry screen, progressing through the quest then dying, squealing about Champs and dropping group. (Now, I don't get worked up about the 10% thing - it's honestly no big deal to me - but dying then leaving because you died is just plain rude. Ok, /rant tangent over)

We would also then have the obligatory threads discussing wether or not it's socially responsible to include "with" or "without Champs" in the LFM notes - no Thanx to that either.

Right now it's nice & simple:

• Normal is easy - no Champs.
• Hard is, well, Hard - some Champs
• Elite is the hardest - lots of Champs.

[oldfatman]

Read this quote and all your questions will be answered.


This is a game. I struggle in real life, I don't want to struggle in a game. Those who wish to struggle should definitely be given a difficulty level that makes them struggle, but don't take away the way I have been playing for a very long time. That is why I support the idea of an option for champions. Then the devs can make champions as hard as they want.

HAL, Just curious, how do you feel about free health care and food stamp?

Because it seems to me this sense of entitlement you have of "I should be allowed to have the same things as the people that worked really hard without working at all myself"

IE XP and LOOTS and FAVOR lol

OH and HAL?

HAVE YOU TRIED A LOWER DIFFICULTY?

[Hendrik]

There's no champs on Epic Normal, any you run into should be bug reported.

I agree with the sentiment that as the dust settles not only will champions become easier they will be tweaked downward in power and numbers and we'll end up with them underpowered as a result and be right back where we were.

If EH and EE are to be where Casuals get their XP and loot from without Champs mucking up their easy completions: WHAT SETTING AM I SUPPOSED TO RUN FOR CHALLENGE? Answer that with genuine self honestly. You are demanding that ALL FOUR settings cater to the lowest common denominator... The arrogance of that is breath taking!

One more thing to keep in mind IC - remember tiered loot and what happened to that?

We all lost EE loot because players with less time complained that they could not get that loot. It had to be removed and turned vanilla so they can zerg faceroll for phat lewtz.

Same theme here.

Champions are the EE loot and the obstruction to zerg facerolling content and they have to be removed.



One other solution, mostly skipped over, is if one is determined to do EE, get a group!

[phillymiket]

Ouch.

getting a little ugly in here.

Obviously, there are clear differences of opinion.

I've Spam-Bombed this thread enough but my final point on the subject is this -

Funny how, once again, something that could have been wholly positive for all - like adding a new super-hard Champion level above Elite - has instead been introduced in a completely divisive way that, once again, pits the Defenders Of The New People -vs- The Vet Brigade.

Oh well, i'm going back to fighting some Elite Champions and will just watch how the chips fall :-)

[FlaviusMaximus]

HAL, Just curious, how do you feel about free health care and food stamp?

Hahaha. Really good analogy. There's a real link between whether one believes that food or medical care should go to those that can't afford it and whether one believes there should be an option for champions in DDO.

We are truly North American scum if we are having this conversation. Just spoiled and rich and stupid and overly concerned with trivial things like video game settings. All of us. Idiots.


IE XP and LOOTS and FAVOR lol

OH and HAL?

HAVE YOU TRIED A LOWER DIFFICULTY?

A rant like that could really only end with shouting.

[BoBoDaClown]

If people don't like champions or don't like champions in EE, the only other choice is to move down in difficulty. In your case that would mean in order to group you would have to move down in difficulty also. Is that preferable to at least grouping in EE but perhaps not with champions?

Yes, preferable, but not as good (for me). Game has been very easy for a long time and waaay to easy recently (obviously imo).

I could be wrong, but this seems to be the first major change in years that makes the game more difficult. I'm really pleased this difficulty issue has been addressed somewhat.

I`m sure it needs tweaking, but at least something has changed.

[Sushiboat]

Read this quote and all your questions will be answered.



HAL, Just curious, how do you feel about free health care and food stamp?

Because it seems to me this sense of entitlement you have of "I should be allowed to have the same things as the people that worked really hard without working at all myself"

IE XP and LOOTS and FAVOR lol

OH and HAL?

HAVE YOU TRIED A LOWER DIFFICULTY?

Uh, where did he say he didn't want to work at all? He's asking to be entitled to the same rewards by working just as hard as someone did prior to the implementation of champions.

[Izumar]

OH and HAL?

HAVE YOU TRIED A LOWER DIFFICULTY?

I would imagine he has from his join date.

Like i said before i would love if they had made these champs more effective at the select fotm builds that you know help trivialize the game. I would love to see things that effected warforged and undead with attacks that were sort of in line against a normal build but much more dangerous to them.

If a champion could hit an animal form druid for a lot of damage but it hit a normal human fighter for a pretty average amount, then you would make these builds have to think a little more. The less flexible builds wouldn't be hurt as much.

Instead i expect to see the normal rp'ish builds get wrecked and the cheese builds will probably end up exploiting the champs for profit. At the least though they should keep these things out of the sub 12 level range and really out of heroics all together.

[HAL]

Preemptive whining stoppage.

I don't want to put up an IP LFM for E/EE quests, have people join who get to the entrance and then say "What!? You selected with Champs? Nty by-by!" or worse yet not taking the moment to check the quest entry screen, progressing through the quest then dying, squealing about Champs and dropping group. (Now, I don't get worked up about the 10% thing - it's honestly no big deal to me - but dying then leaving because you died is just plain rude. Ok, /rant tangent over)

We would also then have the obligatory threads discussing wether or not it's socially responsible to include "with" or "without Champs" in the LFM notes - no Thanx to that either.

Right now it's nice & simple:

• Normal is easy - no Champs.
• Hard is, well, Hard - some Champs
• Elite is the hardest - lots of Champs.

So you are concerned that more people will want to run without champs than with champs? But you are not concerned that ALL those players will simply start playing a lower difficulty when there is no other option and you will have less people for your PUGs?

And no, LFG is not currently easy.

[PermaBanned]

So you are concerned that more people will want to run without champs than with champs?I'm not making any kind of guess at numbers either way.


But you are not concerned that ALL those players will simply start playing a lower difficulty when there is no other option and you will have less people for your PUGs?Nope, not concerned at all. People who want fast & easy rewards shouldn't be expecting to get it from the highest difficulty setting; people who want challenge should be expecting to find that in the highest difficulty setting. If Champs remain as standard inclusions then while I may indeed have less people to pug with, a larger percentage of them will also be looking for the highest level of (aka Elite/Epic Elite) challenge.

[HAL]

Yes, preferable, but not as good (for me). Game has been very easy for a long time and waaay to easy recently (obviously imo).

I could be wrong, but this seems to be the first major change in years that makes the game more difficult. I'm really pleased this difficulty issue has been addressed somewhat.

I`m sure it needs tweaking, but at least something has changed.

So you believe that you should decide how difficult the game is for EVERYONE, not just for yourself?

[Trogloditas]

-Signed Someone who PUG's EE's every night yet hasn't been in a Party wipe in 5 or 6 months (that didn't involve lag).

Sadly, this shows what you really wanted to tell.

[BoBoDaClown]

Uh, where did he say he didn't want to work at all? He's asking to be entitled to the same rewards by working just as hard as someone did prior to the implementation of champions.

Which is a lot easier than the game had been previously.

[oldfatman]

...I may indeed have less people to pug with, a larger percentage of them will also be looking for the highest level of (aka Elite/Epic Elite) challenge.

And will be prepared for it, ready to contribute, and not just some guy looking for easy loot and xp?

[PermaBanned]

So you believe that you should decide how difficult the game is for EVERYONE, not just for yourself?"The game" is not Elite. "The game" has four difficulty selectors, of which only two include Champs. EVERYONE can choose how difficult they want the game to be for themselves, by choosing what difficulty they want to play on ;)

[Nefatron]

I couldnt agree more... Im sick and tiered of hearing how the game is to hard... If your not well geared, If you dont have a confident build.. If you dont have the skills to keep your self alive in Elite then get out of Elite.

BUT THE BRAVERY BONUS...
Yea you get your bravery bonus while the rest of us are burning through scrolls or wasting our time bringing your gimp self to shrine 5 times cause you dont understand the concept of 4 death penalties working agianst you....
Then you come to forums and complain about it's to hard? You dont get to make the rest of us suffer cause you cant compete in the big league.
Get your behind back in the minors till you get the appropriate skills to run with the big dogs.



YOU DONT GO IN A HEAVY WEIGHT FIGHT IF YOUR 160LBS...

[PermaBanned]

And will be prepared for it, ready to contribute, and not just some guy looking for easy loot and xp?I don't expect the odds of that happening to change - some others would seem to disagree ;)

[Andu_Indorin]

First of all this "one shot" madness is the result of someone going into an EXTREME CHALLENGE quest with a very specific damage mechanic that amps up the incoming damage, and then deciding that Champions are garbage because he did it wrong and can't understand what the words "extreme challenge" might entail. Again the failure is on the players expectations. What does Turbine need to do? make every quest in the game super-stupid and flash a big warning dialog in front of their faces about entering an area where you MIGHT DIE?.

My experience with being "one-shot" occurred in the Sacred Helm, less than two minutes into the quest. No extreme challenge quest there. Not even an opponent worthy of the color orange. ...

[oldfatman]

...

YOU DONT GO IN A HEAVY WEIGHT FIGHT IF YOUR 160LBS...

Unless your chuck Norris

[goodspeed]

Id I think a good measurement for how much they hot for should be used in EE tor. You know how those skellies just smash down on you for 170 in heavy 300 in in pj's. 3 to 400 sounds pretty good. With constant sunders to lower fort%

[1Soulless1]

Preemptive whining stoppage.

I don't want to put up an IP LFM for E/EE quests, have people join who get to the entrance and then say "What!? You selected with Champs? Nty by-by!" or worse yet not taking the moment to check the quest entry screen, progressing through the quest then dying, squealing about Champs and dropping group. (Now, I don't get worked up about the 10% thing - it's honestly no big deal to me - but dying then leaving because you died is just plain rude. Ok, /rant tangent over)

We would also then have the obligatory threads discussing wether or not it's socially responsible to include "with" or "without Champs" in the LFM notes - no Thanx to that either.

Right now it's nice & simple:

• Normal is easy - no Champs.
• Hard is, well, Hard - some Champs
• Elite is the hardest - lots of Champs.

So why not just change it so that on Epic Elite all the monsters get the stat buffs of champions if people want it to be so 'elite' and want a challenge and leave EH,EN to the ranks of those who can't do it and those who just want quick easy mindless xp grinds?

[Sushiboat]

Which is a lot easier than the game had been previously.

This is probably true, but my response was to the comment of "doing less work" (actually "doing no work at all") that was tied specifically to "opting out of champions."

Essentially oldfatman is using the current state of the game to be the "required" amount of work (which is higher than pre-U24). So his argument is that HAL wants the same results for "less work," because the pre-U24 state required less work than today.

I'm fairly certain when HAL posted, his benchmark for the "required" amount of work was the pre-U24 state.

[Hilltrot]

-Signed Someone who PUG's EE's every night yet hasn't been in a Party wipe in 5 or 6 months (that didn't involve lag).



First, this is a complete lie. I saw you die 6 times last night alone.

Next, the (that didn't involve lag.) show how much BS that comment was to begin with.


It's not harder it's just STUPID!

[Thrudh]

So Elite should be impossible with Monster Champions for a casual player.

Well, casual may be the wrong word... but elite should be very hard for someone without gear, skill, and/or past lives. You can be a casual player and still be good enough to handle elite...

But elite shouldn't be easy for EVERYONE... otherwise what's the point of having 4 difficulties?

[Hilltrot]

I have yet to experience this myself from Champions, but its all too common to get one shotted by disintegrate from non Champion mobs like beholders.

ive seen the posts that Champions are dealing triple the amount of damage that any "normal" hp character would have, but so far haven't seen it. didn't see this on Lamma either. if this is true, than it should be fixed. Champions should not be able to hit harder than an end quest boss, but they should hit no harder than a mini boss.

Then, you need to stop posting and start playing.

No, they aren't always there. That's the problem. It's not like i have to deal with harder hitting mobs or some new more difficult champion. I have a chance of completing my adventure with not problems, and then sometimes I have a chance of just dieing like a chump to a random crown.

[BoBoDaClown]

This is probably true, but my response was to the comment of "doing less work" (actually "doing no work at all") that was tied specifically to "opting out of champions."

Essentially oldfatman is using the current state of the game to be the "required" amount of work (which is higher than pre-U24). So his argument is that HAL wants the same results for "less work," because the pre-U24 state required less work than today.

I'm fairly certain when HAL posted, his benchmark for the "required" amount of work was the pre-U24 state.

True.

I believe Turbine has added champions due to their perception of how easy the game has become, compared to before - this is the context within which my comment has been made.

[BoBoDaClown]

So you believe that you should decide how difficult the game is for EVERYONE, not just for yourself?

No need to yell. I can read and have a civil conversation without resorting to emotive rhetoric.

You asked, I answered.

With a check-box I am soft-forced to run without them.

Prior to EE becoming super easy, I often couldn't run EE because a lot of players in LFM (I often pug) didn't want too. If champions are a check-box, then often I will be forced to run without them, with the prior easy difficulty setting.

This is why I'm against a check-box. It also seems a bit arbitrary. Why don't we have check-boxes for other aspects of the game?

I'm not sure what the fuss is about regardless. I haven't done the new quests, but the difficulty on other quests hasn't dramatically leaped up. If the new quests are super difficult and I can't complete them, that would be awesome... I would love something to try to work at.

I don't solo. I find it boring. Perhaps soloing is a lot harder. In a group we just make sure everything is CCed. Actually makes CC matter, which is cool. If a monster crushes me - someone can rez me.

[Qhualor]

Then, you need to stop posting and start playing.

No, they aren't always there. That's the problem. It's not like i have to deal with harder hitting mobs or some new more difficult champion. I have a chance of completing my adventure with not problems, and then sometimes I have a chance of just dieing like a chump to a random crown.

I could say that people are exaggerating their claims, but im not. I haven't fully experienced the Champions from levels 1-28 in at least half the quests. so far in most level 13-20 quests that I have run I haven't seen a Champion dealing these high damage numbers or had any real problems with them on my own or in a group. frankly, none of the pug groups ive been in have even slowed down because of Champions. ive had a couple that made me back off and heal up before engaging in the fight again, but nothing for me to rant hard on the forums or threaten to quit the game. not one single person in game have I heard they are having problems with them. I only hear about these problems on the forums. im also the kind of player that if my characters cant handle a certain difficulty that I need to run a lower difficulty. I often drop from elite to hard once I get to 20. I am willing to do that and understand I cant always play elite. why do others feel justified that they need no fail elites?

[Skorj1]

Champions have made the endgame too slow and boring for me to maintain my interest, sadly. Maybe I TR a few times or something, but it was already a grind borderline worth playing, and now it's over the border.

Champions don't add any fun, they don't add any new tactics, they don't add any new interest, they just take longer to kill and make quests longer to complete. They increase the chair time needed to level. Who asked for that? Seriously, this game has been a lot less fun for me since the patch. Maybe if they fixed the Hireling AI that they just broke *again*, it wouldn't be so tragic, but as it is: this game has been fun for mee since it went F2P. It just stopped being fun.

[depositbox]

First, this is a complete lie. I saw you die 6 times last night alone.

Next, the (that didn't involve lag.) show how much BS that comment was to begin with.

Lmao!!

Elitist card revoked

[Chai]

This thread is 3-4 years too late. If the difficulty settings reflected the adjective they are labeled with, soloing elite with little to no chance of failure would not have become the expected entitled norm for most of the players over years of time.

[HernandoCortez]

If you come to the Forum and say EE is too hard... You belong in EH... if EH is too hard, you need to select EN... Apparently this simple process is unknown to some people. You do not get to furiously rant about how the "too hard" part should be dumbed down for you... you're being selfish and entitled and ruining the game for people who desire challenge but do not have any choices that are harder than Elite.

I can't agree with you.
How hard and time consuming would it be to add this champion thing on another level above Elite? Since the devs are so fond of this madness thing they could even call it Xoriat difficulty.

And the person being selfish is you. 99% if the players I've played since update 24 dislike the champion "feature".

[Hendrik]

Well, casual may be the wrong word... but elite should be very hard for someone without gear, skill, and/or past lives. You can be a casual player and still be good enough to handle elite...

But elite shouldn't be easy for EVERYONE... otherwise what's the point of having 4 difficulties?

It is boiling down this very simple thing Thrudh;

At many times in the past of DDO, we have had risk and reward. Then the risk was deemed to hard for the reward, EE tiered loot for example. So that risk was lowered. Lowered so much that basically there was no risk for the reward. Every single one of us played under that. Some liked and some did not. Some got bored and some did not. What did happen is that people got used to playing without risk for the reward.

After some time playing without risk, people wanted that risk back - at least in the higher difficulty settings. ie Epic.

What this checkmark for Champs is saying; I want the reward without the risk through no real fault of their own, they got used to playing that way.

Now we do have at least some risk back for the reward. Now many cannot take on that risk because they got so used to playing without any. They got into the habit of playing that way. Now, many cannot break that habit or have found out the hard way they are not as good as they thought because they never had any risk to deal with.

I have read a post by someone, more of a casual type, that played and got used to not ever having any risk and now questions continuing playing ONLY because monsters can kill him now. That is the mentality that has to be overcome. That is what we, those in favor of champs, have to deal with. Quit playing because MOBs can finally kill you?!? It is astounding.

Now, I am not saying Champs are perfect, they are not. Heroic champs should not one shot, unless the character is just plain gimp. Heroic champs need to be there and in proper numbers and strength to prepare people for Epic. Epic champs need to be there and in proper numbers and strength to challenge those parities that do play Epic.

Think it was the DEV Flimsy that said it best;

No Challenge, no fun.

The days of playing DDO in God Mode must end. They must end now.

[HernandoCortez]

No Challenge, no fun.


What challenge there is into running into 30+ mobs with 30% being champions that can one-hit kill you?
That is the part I don't understand in champion supporter's speech.

How is it going to improve the game for everyone? How is it going to make people group more?
I think it won't.

Add a new difficulty setting for the elitists. Don't mess the game for everyone else who was enjoying it the way it was.

Terminal Delirium EE mirror room = bad joke.
Tharashk Arena EE final fight = bad joke.

Feel free to add others on the list.

[Qhualor]

What challenge there is into running into 30+ mobs with 30% being champions that can one-hit kill you?
That is the part I don't understand in champion supporter's speech.

How is it going to improve the game for everyone? How is it going to make people group more?
I think it won't.

Add a new difficulty setting for the elitists. Don't mess the game for everyone else who was enjoying it the way it was.

Terminal Delirium EE mirror room = bad joke.
Tharashk Arena EE final fight = bad joke.

Feel free to add others on the list.

don't confuse some of the Champion support speeches with things that some of us are reporting to be higher per cent chance than what is intended. its supposed to be 10%, but there is plenty of us saying it should be less and we are seeing in some cases higher than 10%.

if Champions were WAI, I don't see how its going to make most players want to group more. I just started epics so ill see the difference personally between heroic and elite. so far from 13-20 ive only encountered a few that gave me pause, but the rest of the quests were business as usual.

I already commented to you in another thread on creating a brand new difficulty and the problems that would go along with it. in short, waste of dev time to create a new difficulty for elite players when we already have elite.

the new quests have been repeatedly reported and identified by the devs that there is a problem with Champions. expect that to be fixed just like any other Champion problems if players provide enough feedback that warrants dev attention.

[Qhualor]

This thread is 3-4 years too late. If the difficulty settings reflected the adjective they are labeled with, soloing elite with little to no chance of failure would not have become the expected entitled norm for most of the players over years of time.

goes hand in hand with secret doors and "my favorite class got nerfed".

I think the devs are starting to realize they need to move quickly on changes before players get too used to things. take Paladins losing the +1(W) 1 update later. regardless, it still caused a lot of talk and some claim it was too big of a nerf and wont play Paladins anymore.

[Chai]

It is boiling down this very simple thing Thrudh;

At many times in the past of DDO, we have had risk and reward. Then the risk was deemed to hard for the reward, EE tiered loot for example. So that risk was lowered. Lowered so much that basically there was no risk for the reward. Every single one of us played under that. Some liked and some did not. Some got bored and some did not. What did happen is that people got used to playing without risk for the reward.

After some time playing without risk, people wanted that risk back - at least in the higher difficulty settings. ie Epic.

What this checkmark for Champs is saying; I want the reward without the risk through no real fault of their own, they got used to playing that way.

Now we do have at least some risk back for the reward. Now many cannot take on that risk because they got so used to playing without any. They got into the habit of playing that way. Now, many cannot break that habit or have found out the hard way they are not as good as they thought because they never had any risk to deal with.

I have read a post by someone, more of a casual type, that played and got used to not ever having any risk and now questions continuing playing ONLY because monsters can kill him now. That is the mentality that has to be overcome. That is what we, those in favor of champs, have to deal with. Quit playing because MOBs can finally kill you?!? It is astounding.

Now, I am not saying Champs are perfect, they are not. Heroic champs should not one shot, unless the character is just plain gimp. Heroic champs need to be there and in proper numbers and strength to prepare people for Epic. Epic champs need to be there and in proper numbers and strength to challenge those parities that do play Epic.

Think it was the DEV Flimsy that said it best;

No Challenge, no fun.

The days of playing DDO in God Mode must end. They must end now.

This is a good explanation, and would be a good defense for something that wasnt adding "challenge" the same way it has been done in the past, by adding arbitrarily increased stats, and buffs. Now its just on a mob by mob basis rather than an entire quest difficulty. Once people figure out the formulaic methods for defeating these (which is already known by those who are saying they have no issue) the positions will revert will be right back to the "too easy -vs- too hard" arguments.

[valarmorghuliis]

How hard and time consuming would it be to add this champion thing on another level above Elite? Since the devs are so fond of this madness thing they could even call it Xoriat difficulty.

And the person being selfish is you. 99% if the players I've played since update 24 dislike the champion "feature".

This is what I have a lot of trouble with ... there isn't a higher difficulty but there doesn't really need to be. There are no real benefits other than some extra xp for running ee these days as they have already got rid of tiered loot. You say it is selfish for us to like the fact that elite isn't a cake walk anymore but it seems to me that all the people crying about "this is too hard now" are the selfish ones.

What fully geared vets do doesn't really effect you. You lot already have 3 difficulties for yourselves. If someone finds a difficulty to challenging they can always drop down a tier with just a minor xp hit and STILL GET THE SAME GEAR.

Everyone seems to look down on all the mean elitists in the game but the clue is in the name... elite is for us. Let us have this one thing. If you find yourself dying constantly in elite ... good.

I think even fully geared up vet players should have a reasonable expectation of dying if they zerg the hardest difficulty; let alone all these people saying "I have no gear it isn't fair that I don't get to keep my streak"

[HAL]

What challenge there is into running into 30+ mobs with 30% being champions that can one-hit kill you?
That is the part I don't understand in champion supporter's speech.

How is it going to improve the game for everyone? How is it going to make people group more?
I think it won't.

Add a new difficulty setting for the elitists. Don't mess the game for everyone else who was enjoying it the way it was.

Terminal Delirium EE mirror room = bad joke.
Tharashk Arena EE final fight = bad joke.

Feel free to add others on the list.

This. We ran EE Sentinals last night and it was not "more fun". We finished, didn't restart, didn't wipe (although it was close a couple of times) and the final conclusion was that champions just made the quests longer and use up more resources. They aren't interesting or challenging any more than DA is interesting and challenging.

So I say again that I would prefer an opt out of Champions at the quest screen. Some people have been suggesting a new difficulty level above Elite but

1. I don't think that will happen

2. If it does it will probably result in a reworking of all difficulties which would just screw them up.

Champions are a cleanly-inserted option and, as far as I can tell, they didn't mess with any other game systems to create them. Therefore it should be relatively easy to toggle them on / off for quests.

[HAL]

This is what I have a lot of trouble with ... there isn't a higher difficulty but there doesn't really need to be. There are no real benefits other than some extra xp for running ee these days as they have already got rid of tiered loot. You say it is selfish for us to like the fact that elite isn't a cake walk anymore but it seems to me that all the people crying about "this is too hard now" are the selfish ones.

What fully geared vets do doesn't really effect you. You lot already have 3 difficulties for yourselves. If someone finds a difficulty to challenging they can always drop down a tier with just a minor xp hit and STILL GET THE SAME GEAR.

Everyone seems to look down on all the mean elitists in the game but the clue is in the name... elite is for us. Let us have this one thing. If you find yourself dying constantly in elite ... good.

I think even fully geared up vet players should have a reasonable expectation of dying if they zerg the hardest difficulty; let alone all these people saying "I have no gear it isn't fair that I don't get to keep my streak"

You are wrong, you get less Favor, lose your BB streak, less XP on top of that, and the same gear might be available but you don't get the same chances for it. I have been playing EE for a very long time and I don't see why I should have to stop playing it now because I am not enjoying Champions.

[Uska]

That's fine but the champions are a horrible idea or least at the rate they spawn now is

[Uska]

In one sentence you despair of Casuals not being able to run EE. In the next sentence you want them to make the difficulties static and unforgiving? I can get behind removing scaling at least from EE, but that's just going to INCREASE the thing you're objecting to in your first sentence.

What I see when I read the complaints about Champions is someone who wants no challenge, or wants EE to be zergable, and every quest to be a faceroll of sameness and never ending repetions without anything to make you pause, add tension, instill caution or add variety to the gameplay.

I've yet to see a complaint about Champions that isn't explainable as: doing a difficulty that you used to steamroll and now are angry you can't steam roll any more. OR someone not getting the quest mechanic (Mirror and Balloon damage in an EXTREME CHALLENGE <-- there's a reason they call it that... but yet people are griping about how it's hard???? W*da*Everlivin*freak are we supposed to do with that?) and not adapting via meta gaming. You can steamroll EN just as easy as EH or EE... and you clearly don't want challenge... So why do EH or EE? It's not like there's some special loot you can't get? The Entitled casuals complained that out of the game as well!

So why ruin EH and EE by drumming up a big Turbine cowing mob and shouting until they remove champions or make them so vanilla that "casuals can stomp through them like Vets"

I'm not an elitist, I am not scared to say I've done EN or even casual mode when the situation called for it (fast flagging for a raid) or in the times I've found EE too tough for my characters gear and level. I drop down a setting and do EH or even EN. I do not come to the forum and beg Turbine to make EE doable on a first lifer with Eveningstar Comms gear in every slot...

My complaints about this aren't for epic EE should be difficult for anyone especially those without gear or past lives. No my complaint is for heroic the champs spawn so much and are able to kill nearly anyone in 1-2 hits its out of control and the spawn rate needs to be toned down

[Uska]

I have yet to experience this myself from Champions, but its all too common to get one shotted by disintegrate from non Champion mobs like beholders.

ive seen the posts that Champions are dealing triple the amount of damage that any "normal" hp character would have, but so far haven't seen it. didn't see this on Lamma either. if this is true, than it should be fixed. Champions should not be able to hit harder than an end quest boss, but they should hit no harder than a mini boss.

The champs are more dangerous by far than any other mobs in some of the quests. This is all Heroic as that's what I mainly play. I did try some EE on my first life paladin and it convinced me that without a good party he needs to stick to EH

[HernandoCortez]

This. We ran EE Sentinals last night and it was not "more fun". We finished, didn't restart, didn't wipe (although it was close a couple of times) and the final conclusion was that champions just made the quests longer and use up more resources. They aren't interesting or challenging any more than DA is interesting and challenging.

So I say again that I would prefer an opt out of Champions at the quest screen. Some people have been suggesting a new difficulty level above Elite but

1. I don't think that will happen

2. If it does it will probably result in a reworking of all difficulties which would just screw them up.

Champions are a cleanly-inserted option and, as far as I can tell, they didn't mess with any other game systems to create them. Therefore it should be relatively easy to toggle them on / off for quests.

I agree. To be able to toggle on/off champions would be good enough.
If you want the extreme challenge, fine. Put that in your lfm... simple as that.

[HernandoCortez]

don't confuse some of the Champion support speeches with things that some of us are reporting to be higher per cent chance than what is intended. its supposed to be 10%, but there is plenty of us saying it should be less and we are seeing in some cases higher than 10%.

if Champions were WAI, I don't see how its going to make most players want to group more. I just started epics so ill see the difference personally between heroic and elite. so far from 13-20 ive only encountered a few that gave me pause, but the rest of the quests were business as usual.

I already commented to you in another thread on creating a brand new difficulty and the problems that would go along with it. in short, waste of dev time to create a new difficulty for elite players when we already have elite.

the new quests have been repeatedly reported and identified by the devs that there is a problem with Champions. expect that to be fixed just like any other Champion problems if players provide enough feedback that warrants dev attention.

I gave you two examples of Epic quests to run. As soon as you get 30% of the mobs being champions on quests that spawn a huge numbers of mobs - thus easily triggering red alerts - come back here and let us know.

[Chai]

D&D actually had rules for this. I don't have the book in front of me currently because its at a different location but it was like For every X amount of mobs there will be a captain or alpha which is Y number of levels above. For every X number of captains / alphas there will be one mob which is Y number of levels above them and is considered their leader.

By those rules, it should be ~1 mob per encounter.

[Qhualor]

I gave you two examples of Epic quests to run. As soon as you get 30% of the mobs being champions on quests that spawn a huge numbers of mobs - thus easily triggering red alerts - come back here and let us know.

the red alerts have been a known problem even before Champions in specific quests. if you are doing Wiz King and the groups splits up causing red alert, that's a player self inflicted problem and not a Champion problem. the devs do need to address those specific problematic instant red alert quests though. like I said, the devs know there are problems with Champions in the new quests like Terminal Delirium.

so far level 22 and have run all quests on EE except one quest on EH. no problems so far and even grouped with 2 barbarians using Consecrated Ground with no hire 3 manning a few quests. all we did was let the barbs get the agro. during the end fight of Von 2 I grabbed the 2 Champions agro while they fought the end boss kiting them around until it was done. tactics and team play are a little more important again.

[IronClan]

First, this is a complete lie. I saw you die 6 times last night alone.

Next, the (that didn't involve lag.) show how much BS that comment was to begin with.


It's not harder it's just STUPID!

Interesting, this appears to be some sort of feeble character assassination attempt... I died in a EE FoT last night does that count? ... I didn't run a single quest (unless you count a buddy in C.L.A.W who had finished HH and opened it up for free loot which I jumped in on*).

As you might not have noticed because: words r hard: I said "party wipe" which does not include simply personal deaths. I die just like everyone else does. However you're the one lying right here as I died once last night (probably because I only ran 3 raids). You can ask Lual (who posts occasionally) if I died in the EH FoT "Havoc run" that Lasertag lead. Or Stormchaos if I died in his VON5-6 (I dont recall doing so).

"It's not harder it's just STUPID" sounds like something my 7 year old says when she doesn't want to do something but can't articulate it well, (which is perfectly okay SHE'S 7) :)

* (interestingly this friend had like 15 Champion chests in the mummy room, all arrayed around the coffin, many floating in air etc. and his appraisal of Champs was along the lines of "meh only time they matter is when 3 or 4 of them get together" or words to that effect.)

[Qhualor]

The champs are more dangerous by far than any other mobs in some of the quests. This is all Heroic as that's what I mainly play. I did try some EE on my first life paladin and it convinced me that without a good party he needs to stick to EH

im only hearing low levels according to the forums. I even created a first life level 1 barb with chest loot gear late last night and ran Sunny side. I had some issues with lag trying to record videos, but ill try again. didn't have any issues there though. I know I didn't experience problems in most quests from 13-20.

[IronClan]

I agree. To be able to toggle on/off champions would be good enough.
If you want the extreme challenge, fine. Put that in your lfm... simple as that.

Again check boxes already exist, there are four of them, more of them just leads to further stratification of LFM's in a game with fewer and fewer groups to join.

Of course what also happens as this sort of thing has happened in the past in many games, is that after a few months the dust settles, Turbine is forced to put more rewards in for champs, and we all have an easier time because we're used to them, so everyone runs with the check box checked and people who run without it sit in an empty group until they quit... Just like anyone who starts a Heroic Normal LFM sits around right now...

We don't need this: we need the self entitled to realize they don't have a right to faceroll Elite content and get the highest reward without challenge. Thus ruining Elite for the players it's designed to be for: the ones who want more challenge.

If you want less challange there are lower difficulties. If you want more, you have no options because Elite is the real "normal mode".

[Algreg]

Huzzah, go back to EH (gets his elitist poker and pokes everyone)

an elitist is defined as someone belonging to some special group who demands favorable, special treatment based on belonging to that group. So how is he elitist? I cannot see him asking for champions being removed for vets, on the contrary, he argues for that addition for every player. That anti-elitist card is usually played by people who actually want different treatment themselves. Ironclad and others did probably not start out with uber-gear, completionist and quest knowledge. He earned all that. In a way any player can earn it. That in fact is not elitism, but egalitarianism. You can improve your skills and your toons. And for that "but i play casually"-thing: Well, if you play less often and less long, you are still getting the very same content relatively for the time playing as someone who spends his whole life in game. That is just another anti-concept asking for special treatment.

[Loholt-UK]

So Elite should be impossible with Monster Champions for a casual player.

Gotcha,
Thanks.

Here's the issue: You have identified yourself as a casual player, you have a few toons who are on their first or second lives. I have a toon who is on her 18th heroic life and has 9 epic past lives too. If I don't get a challenge on elite because you want to be able to solo it then why the hell have I wasted my time levelling my toon this much? I could have just rolled a new toon or 15 new toons.

The game has accommodated you - there are multiple difficulty levels.

Do you see how your attitude could be construed as selfish?

[Sharktopus]

After reading these forums pretty regularly for almost four years, I have to say that there is absolutely nothing that the DDO developers can do that will be appreciated.

forums: The game requires grouping and roles. Waaah. Waaah.

developers: Okay, we hear you.

Game gets more solo friendly

forums: bards and paladins suck. Waaah. Waaah.

developers: Okay, we hear you.

Classes are reviewed and improved

forums: the game's too easy, and bards and paladins are OP. Waaah. Waaah.

developers: Okay, we hear you.

Targeted nerf cycle begins, starting with Holy Sword spell. Champion mobs added to the game.

forums: the game's too hard! I can't sleep-walk through elite any more! WAAAH! WAAAH!

Oh.

My.

God.

Does anyone try, oh, I dunno, let's say "trying to adjust tactics" or "reviewing possibility of lower difficulty setting" before starting the whine-fest?

I've been in situations before where I wanted to play in a group and the only group was doing something EE. In my heart of hearts, I knew that the toon I was logged into wasn't up to EE, but there weren't any other groups adveretising, so I joined. After one quest, in that situation I would have to admit that I didn't need to be in that party, and I'd cordially drop group so they could get someone useful in there. Does it sting the ego a little? Sure. But in the long run, it was better for them and for me.

But at the end of the day, I think that 15 minutes after the update goes live is a little early to be whining that champions are terrible and all these other things that people have been spewing. You want to know what a grind is? It's trying to keep a positive attitude while reading these forums. Crikey.


I kind of miss the old days. Before epic destinies, when Epic anything was hard as nails. When you had to think really hard before doing a dungeon without a (skilled) healer. That's what attracted me to this game over things like WOW was the necessity for a balanced party and the emphasis on teamwork. These days I can stop playing mid-quest and no one notices or cares.

You know the last time I ran in a group with a trapper or a healer? I couldn't tell you because I don't even pay attention any more.

A Divine Crusader archer with rejuv cocoon and some raise scrolls shouldn't be the same thing as a radiant servant, but these days, it is. Hell if anything my ranger is better because it has jump spell and manyshot.

[Qezuzu]

"Just play casual or normal" is a complete non-solution. Those difficulties offer no challenge, mobs have almost no capability to harm a competently geared and built character.

Casual, Normal: snoozefest
Hard, Elite: ganked by champions

At any rate, I have not seen any posts indicating that increasing difficulty is bad. What I HAVE seen is posts saying that champions are terribly balanced and poorly implemented, which they are, and unfairly punish new player who are entering a game where the developers, quote, "do not expect new players to be running elite," yet all heroic LFMs are for elite difficulty because bravery bonus.

Reduce spawn %
Reduce the effect of the damage buff
Get rid of 600 HP oozes in lvl2 quests and the like

These are reasonable requests.

[Loholt-UK]

"Just play casual or normal" is a complete non-solution. Those difficulties offer no challenge, mobs have almost no capability to harm a competently geared and built character.

So why aren't people petitioning to make Normal mode more challenging? Is it because they wouldn't play it anyway? The people who are complaining about Elites now being difficult just want max xp/min and feel that they have somehow been cheated.

You say that Normal offers you no challenge. Well try Hard then. Ohh... but hard is too hard. Well you obviously don't want a challenge then, just the xp/min. Amiright?

[Qezuzu]

So why aren't people petitioning to make Normal mode more challenging? Is it because they wouldn't play it anyway? The people who are complaining about Elites now being difficult just want max xp/min and feel that they have somehow been cheated.

You say that Normal offers you no challenge. Well try Hard then. Ohh... but hard is too hard. Well you obviously don't want a challenge then, just the xp/min. Amiright?

Where exactly did I say that I personally have trouble with hard/elite? Before u24 I was soloing EE quests, not with Tornado abuse, not with FOTM builds, but with a well geared INT-based Rogue. I was about as 'elitist' as one could get without using the FOTM min-max builds.

I've recently eTRed, at lvl21 I tried EE LoD solo. With stealthiness, Web Traps and Epic Big Top clickie I was able to complete it without much of issue. I haven't had much time for anything else because finals. I've only been able to go off of other people's anecdotes, which include 600 HP oozes in Durks, 24k HP Hezrous in HE Spinner, and players getting hit for 280 by Magic Missile (100% irreducible and unavoidable damage btw) in Hard Korthos. I don't think anyone can rightly say that this is a well-balanced change.

An increase in difficulty in normal would not be completely unreasonable by the way, but until that happens, suggesting that people who don't like champions should go play those difficulties is insulting. "What, you don't like it that hard spawns mobs that hit twice as hard as the final boss? Well then just go play a difficulty with 0% chance of failure, I'm sure it's more your speed [condescending emoticon]."
.
.
.
.
By the way, the best xp/min in the game is EN Wizking optionals without completing, so I don't know why you're bringing up me wanting to run EEs for good xp/min LOL.

[PermaBanned]

I've only been able to go off of other people's anecdotes, which include 600 HP oozes in Durks, 24k HP Hezrous in HE Spinner...So basically, you saw some other people commenting on what they experienced, and decided even if you haven't experienced it you'd comment too? The ooze was a post-completion optional, and the HP buff doesn't make Champs one-shot anybody...


...and players getting hit for 280 by Magic Missile (100% irreducible and unavoidable damage btw) in Hard Korthos. Shield/Nightshield Spell/Scroll/Clicky... Nope, nothing can be done about that...


I don't think anyone can rightly say that this is a well-balanced change.That depends greatly on what the change was supposed to be balanced against now, doesn't it? Afaik, Champions were intended to balance against a lack of challenge, an almost auto complete nature of Elite difficulty. How many of the complaints you've read could have been prevented by a prepared character? *ahem*Shield vs Magic Missle*ahem*

I saw a level 8 WF Sorc complain about an inability to drink pots or get sufficiently healed by a Cleric hire while running away from an Elite Champion in Black Loche -
• Why were they running Elite on an Arcane Caster without CC - Web maybe?
• Why are they not casting any Repair spells?
• Why are they using a Divine hire instead of an Arcane hire to Cure instead of Repair their Warforged?

Why were they (pre-update) successfully soloing Elite difficulties while demonstrating such a lack of basic tactics & game knowledge? Is that (lack of tactics and knowledge) what the hardest difficulty should be balanced for?

I realize the comments above may make me sound like a snob, and if so then fine - but why shouldn't the difficulty above Normal (that being called Hard) require at least a bit of game knowledge (basic defenses, proper healing); and the difficulty above that (that being called Elite aka Hardest) require a good chunk of game knowledge, and punish me for making mistakes? (like lacking proper defenses or proper healing, and especially if lacking proper defenses and proper healing!)

[Qezuzu]

So basically, you saw some other people commenting on what they experienced, and decided even if you haven't experienced it you'd comment too?

Some of those anecdotes has screen shots. Please justify an ooze having 600 HP in a lvl2 quest. And I'm not one to assume people are lying if they don't have screenshots, seeing as I've seen plenty of absurd stuff with champions.


Shield/Nightshield Spell/Scroll/Clicky... Nope, nothing can be done about that...

How many of the complaints you've read could have been prevented by a prepared character? *ahem*Shield vs Magic Missle*ahem*

Go ahead and tell me where a lvl2 or lvl3 non-caster toon is getting that. Iirc the only source for shield pots is guild vendor, not 100% sure. Good ****ing god I know how Magic Missile can be blocked.

But no, go ahead and justify that Korthos on Hard requires a specific spell to complete if you get unlucky with the Champ Roulette.


That depends greatly on what the change was supposed to be balanced against now, doesn't it? Afaik, Champions were intended to balance against a lack of challenge, an almost auto complete nature of Elite difficulty.

I saw a level 8 WF Sorc complain about an inability to drink pots or get sufficiently healed by a Cleric hire while running away from an Elite Champion in Black Loche -
• Why were they running Elite on an Arcane Caster without CC?
• Why are they not casting any Repair spells?
• Why are they using a Divine hire instead of an Arcane hire to Cure instead of Repair their Warforged?

Why were they (pre-update) successfully soloing Elite difficulties while demonstrating such a lack of basic tactics game knowledge? Is that (lack of tactics and knowledge) what the hardest difficulty should be balanced for?

I realize the comments above may make me sound like a snob, and if so then fine - but why shouldn't the difficulty above Normal (that being called Hard) require at least a bit of game knowledge (basic defenses, proper healing); and the difficulty above that (that being called Elite aka Hardest) require a good chunk of game knowledge, and punish me for making mistakes? (like lacking proper defenses or proper healing, and especially if lacking proper defenses and proper healing!)

Uh, most elites DID require knowledge, good gear and a good build, or at least to be carried by someone who had those. Heroic, it varies by quest, but people here are pretending that a new toon can except auto-completes on EE; this is not the case. EE was challenging, if you didn't have end-game gear, tons of Fate points and maxed destinies and weren't using a cheese build.

Quadruple HP mobs in heroic quests in BS
Charmed Champions literally able to beat end bosses 1v1 is BS
EE champions being more dangerous than EE Fire Peak Dragons is BS

Increase in challenge is fine, just do it in a way that's not horribly implemented.

[Kipling]

I could say that people are exaggerating their claims, but im not. I haven't fully experienced the Champions from levels 1-28 in at least half the quests. so far in most level 13-20 quests that I have run I haven't seen a Champion dealing these high damage numbers or had any real problems with them on my own or in a group. frankly, none of the pug groups ive been in have even slowed down because of Champions. ive had a couple that made me back off and heal up before engaging in the fight again, but nothing for me to rant hard on the forums or threaten to quit the game. not one single person in game have I heard they are having problems with them. I only hear about these problems on the forums. im also the kind of player that if my characters cant handle a certain difficulty that I need to run a lower difficulty. I often drop from elite to hard once I get to 20. I am willing to do that and understand I cant always play elite. why do others feel justified that they need no fail elites?

We keep having to stop and open the extra chests. :-)

[PermaBanned]

Some of those anecdotes has screen shots. Please justify an ooze having 600 HP in a lvl2 quest. And I'm not one to assume people are lying if they don't have screenshots, seeing as I've seen plenty of absurd stuff with champions.First, I never said anything about anyone lying. Second, why does it need to be justified? It required the combination of a Named Rare getting a specific random buff after getting randomly selected for Champion status - and for all that it's an optional that can be ignored and/or dealt with post completion... yeah, not seeing the big deal here.


Go ahead and tell me where a lvl2 or lvl3 non-caster toon is getting that. Iirc the only source for shield pots is guild vendor, not 100% sure. Good ****ing god I know how Magic Missile can be blocked.Actually, I'm not aware of any vendor (guild or otherwise) that provides Shild pots - Scrolls on the other hand are definitely available from the guild vendor, and iirc from the standard vendors as well. Beyond that there's clickys.


But no, go ahead and justify that Korthos on Hard requires a specific spell to complete if you get unlucky with the Champ Roulette.
• Because anything above Normal is optional, not required. I had zero expectation to be able to complete any difficulty above Normal when I was fresh off the boat, and I have zero expectation that anyone else should be entitled differently.

• Because the spell isn't required for quest completion, at most it's required for a deathless completion bonus. Even on Korthos: if you select the "Hard" difficulty, you should expect it to be Hard - this should include at least some possibility of failure, even if it's only due to an unlucky result from Champion Roulette.


Uh, most elites DID require knowledge, good gear and a good build, or at least to be carried by someone who had those. Uh, no; not for quite some time now <- tyvm MR.Scaling. If Elite did require such things then it wouldn't be the "ideal difficulty" for these guys (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/453078-seriously?p=5493783#post5493783) "exploring the game for the first time" in a duo, or that guy (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/453095-hurrah-for-monster-champions?p=5493540#post5493540) soloing Elite "with no problems" (pre Champions) with minimal tactics and healing.

[Kipling]

I can't agree with you.
How hard and time consuming would it be to add this champion thing on another level above Elite? Since the devs are so fond of this madness thing they could even call it Xoriat difficulty.

And the person being selfish is you. 99% if the players I've played since update 24 dislike the champion "feature".

Funny. My personal experience statistics slant the other way. I guess we are both lacking sufficient sample size to sling credible numbers.

[Qezuzu]

First, I never said anything about anyone lying. Second, why does it need to be justified? It required the combination of a Named Rare getting a specific random buff after getting randomly selected for Champion status - and for all that it's an optional that can be ignored and/or dealt with post completion... yeah, not seeing the big deal here.

It wasn't Muck that had 600 HP.

And it needs to be justified because it's nonsensical, and raising HP and damage is a lazy way of increasing difficulty; "the ooze looks completely identical to all the other oozes around it, but THIS ONE has 4x HP and damage!"


Actually, I'm not aware of any vendor (guild or otherwise) that provides Shild pots - Scrolls on the other hand are definitely available from the guild vendor, and iirc from the standard vendors as well. Beyond that there's clickys.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Clicky_items/Shield_%28spell%29

Lowest is ML 5. "Woops, you forgot to farm Bloody Crypt last life, have fun in Korthos!"


• Because anything above Normal is optional, not required. I had zero expectation to be able to complete any difficulty above Normal when I was fresh off the boat, and I have zero expectation that anyone else should be entitled differently.

Every single Heroic LFM up right now on Thelanis is either Elite or a wilderness area. I don't see many "options" here.


• Because the spell isn't required for quest completion, at most it's required for a deathless completion bonus. Even on Korthos: if you select the "Hard" difficulty, you should expect it to be Hard - this should include at least some possibility of failure, even if it's only due to an unlucky result from Champion Roulette.

"Hard Korthos should have a chance to kill players for no reason."

Literally a pillar of artificial difficulty: the player can fail for reasons beyond their control.


Uh, no; not for quite some time now <- tyvm MR.Scaling. If Elite did require such things then it wouldn't be the "ideal difficulty" for these guys (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/453078-seriously?p=5493783#post5493783) "exploring the game for the first time" in a duo, or that guy (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/453095-hurrah-for-monster-champions?p=5493540#post5493540) soloing Elite "with no problems" (pre Champions) with minimal tactics and healing.

I said in heroic it varies. In EE, what everyone was crying about, no.

Please, just think for a second. Trash mob oozes in harbor quests having more HP than some capped players. Casters in Korthos OHKOing players four times over. Who the hell asked for the game's tutorial area to be harder? Do you honestly believe this was a well implemented change? NPCs can be champs for frick's sake.

[PermaBanned]

It wasn't Muck that had 600 HP.Ah, seems we saw different complaints - the I've actually read one specifically citing a Championed Muck.


And it needs to be justified because it's nonsensical, and raising HP and damage is a lazy way of increasing difficulty; One man's "lazy" is another's "cost effective." Sure a smarter AI that attacks players with better tactics and such would be a preferable means of adding challenge, but also nowhere near as cost effective. People have been asking for randomization, and random mobs getting Champion status is probably a much more cost effective solution than completely altering the mob placement & type in all quests from fixed to random.

Reasonable expectations my friend. I would ask how you would add challenge under whatever time & budget restrictions the Devs have - but we have no clue what those restrictions are.


..."the ooze looks completely identical to all the other oozes around it...Well, except for that completely obvious and otherwise totally out of place floaty gold crown that just might suggest "there's something different about this one..."


http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Clicky_items/Shield_%28spell%29

Lowest is ML 5. "Woops, you forgot to farm Bloody Crypt last life, have fun in Korthos!"Oh well sure, if you're going to restrict yourself to Named Items with Shield clickies. Otherwise, check the AH from time to time ;)


Every single Heroic LFM up right now on Thelanis is either Elite or a wilderness area. I don't see many "options" here.When I didn't/don't consider myself capable of Elite difficulty, I solo in or post for a lower one.


"Hard Korthos should have a chance to kill players for no reason."

Literally a pillar of artificial difficulty: the player can fail for reasons beyond their control.

I said in heroic it varies. In EE, what everyone was crying about, no.

Please, just think for a second. Trash mob oozes in harbor quests having more HP than some capped players. Casters in Korthos OHKOing players four times over. Who the hell asked for the game's tutorial area to be harder?Hey, if the Devs can hit some "except Korthos" button then great! However, if there is no "except Korthos" button then why not let players learn early on that the difficulty selections above Normal (titled Hard and Elite <- even harder than Hard) really are more than a "rewards tier selection." Choosing Hard actually means that it can be harder than Normal, and the even harder-than-that difficulty called Elite is actually harder than Hard.

On second thought, Korthos actually seems to me like a fine place to learn that Hard and Elite are difficulty settings meant to be challenging to experienced players (kinda like it says on the quest entrance when you select those higher difficulties ;))


Do you honestly believe this was a well implemented change? NPCs can be champs for frick's sake.I never claimed it was bugless - but what difference does it make that NPCs can get the Champ buff? Near as I can tell, it doesn't effect squat so why does it matter?

[Qezuzu]

Ah, seems we saw different complaints - the I've actually read one specifically citing a Championed Muck.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/453023-Monster-Champion-Feedback?p=5492969&viewfull=1#post5492969


One man's "lazy" is another's "cost effective." Sure a smarter AI that attacks players with better tactics and such would be a preferable means of adding challenge, but also nowhere near as cost effective. People have been asking for randomization, and random mobs getting Champion status is probably a much more cost effective solution than completely altering the mob placement & type in all quests from fixed to random.

Giving fortification and PRR/MRR to mobs is plenty cost effective.

Making interesting effects like on hit: item disjunction is plenty cost effective. Imagine a champion with Item Disjunction+CC immunity.

They could have done tons of effects with this. They could have done something like Double Rainbow where so many effects are possible, effects that are essentially copy-pasted from existing mechanics no less. Instead, it's a boring and rushed system that does almost nothing but increase damage and HP. Let's be clear: increasing damage and HP of enemies is the easiest possible thing one can do to increase difficulty.


Reasonable expectations my friend. I would ask how you would add challenge under whatever time & budget restrictions the Devs have - but we have no clue what those restrictions are.

If they couldn't do a good job of it they shouldn't have done it at all, or postponed it to u25. I and others gave feedback on the Lammania thread, feedback that appears to have been totally ignored.


Well, except for that completely obvious and otherwise totally out of place floaty gold crown that just might suggest "there's something different about this one..."

Yes, because Burger King crowns totally help the immersion when you're fighting inflated-HP oozes.


When I didn't/don't consider myself capable of Elite difficulty, I solo in or post for a lower one.

Okay: a new player playing a new MMO (massively MULTIPLAYER online game) should be expected to solo, because LFMs are all pretty much elite only?


I never claimed it was bugless - but what difference does it make that NPCs can get the Champ buff? Near as I can tell, it doesn't effect squat so why does it matter?

It looks bad. It shows they did a rushed job. It shows that they probably didn't exclude anything from being a champion. So far as I can tell, anything with an HP bar can spawn as a champion.

http://i.imgur.com/57aqmqr.png
This includes NPC and 'props' like the above acolyte, but it also means that things that should really not have been champions, are champions. This includes nonsensical things like mindless oozes and vermins, and challenging mobs/areas that could become insurmountably difficult for any party if too many things become champions.

Also, things that get nonsensical buffs, e.g. Skeletons with Absorb Bludgeon.

[PermaBanned]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/453023-Monster-Champion-Feedback?p=5492969&viewfull=1#post5492969Yeah, we read different posts - Thanx for confirming that ;) Btw, that ooze - while humorous - is completely a non-issue. Not a required kill, not even an optional for loot/XP; if you don't want to kill it then just run by it.


Giving fortification and PRR/MRR to mobs is plenty cost effective.And it's about as interesting as giving them a fat load of HP - either way you're just increasing beat down times. At least with the Champs, fat loads of HP are only a possible result and not applied to everything.


Making interesting effects like on hit: item disjunction is plenty cost effective. Imagine a champion with Item Disjunction+CC immunity.

They could have done tons of effects with this. They could have done something like Double Rainbow where so many effects are possible, effects that are essentially copy-pasted from existing mechanics no less.Hey, I'm with ya here! More interesting effects for/from mobs is always great in my book - unfortunately many of the folks complaining about the added difficulty imposed by these Champions have also complained about similar mob effects in the past. I seem to remember a Lama discussion revolving around massive disapproval for mobs sporting Rainbow procs, I'll see if I can dig that up for ya.


Instead, it's a boring and rushed system that does almost nothing but increase damage and HP. Let's be clear: increasing damage and HP of enemies is the easiest possible thing one can do to increase difficulty.And yet earlier in this very post you suggested Fortification and PRR/MRR as though it would be any better than that - in fact it would be worse, as it would only make them take longer to kill and not actually make them any more dangerous.


Yes, because Burger King crowns totally help the immersion when you're fighting inflated-HP oozes.I didn't say they were immersive identifiers - but kindly make up your mind please, either they are unmarked, or they sport Burger King crowns - but they can't possibly be unmarked while showing Burger King crowns yet you've claimed both...


Okay: a new player playing a new MMO (massively MULTIPLAYER online game) should be expected to solo, because LFMs are all pretty much elite only?I didn't say they should be expected to solo - though that behavior/playstyle seems exceedingly common in this MMO. I said it's an option, as is posting an LFM for a lesser difficulty. If these Champions persist in being too difficult to handle at low levels on higher difficulties, I imagine that the LFM panel will reflect that. If the LFM panel remains as it is now (all Elite) then presumably how to deal with the Champions have been all sorted out, and all of this "what about the children?!" will have been for naught ;)


It looks bad. It shows they did a rushed job. It shows that they probably didn't exclude anything from being a champion. So far as I can tell, anything with an HP bar can spawn as a champion.Except for End Bosses and anything in a Raid, it seems you're correct. However, I do only recal them excluding End Bosses and Raids... Hmm, I wonder if a Champion Coyle might actually be usefull, or at least not totally worthless?


Also, things that get nonsensical buffs, e.g. Skeletons with Absorb Bludgeon.
Yeah, it's almost like there's some randomness involved or something...

[Chai]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Category:Clicky_items/Shield_%28spell%29

Lowest is ML 5. "Woops, you forgot to farm Bloody Crypt last life, have fun in Korthos!"



Nope, theres a pair of gloves in a korthos quest that has a shield clicky.
http://i58.tinypic.com/55o57p.png

[Qezuzu]

Yeah, we read different posts - Thanx for confirming that ;) Btw, that ooze - while humorous - is completely a non-issue. Not a required kill, not even an optional for loot/XP; if you don't want to kill it then just run by it.

I'm sorry but I can't ignore bad game design. It's like if they introduce Battlerager Air Elementals. "It's okay, you can ignore them, they're not required kills!"

600 HP Oozes is. Bad. Game. Design. It doesn't matter if it's a required kill or not.


And it's about as interesting as giving them a fat load of HP - either way you're just increasing beat down times. At least with the Champs, fat loads of HP are only a possible result and not applied to everything.

And yet earlier in this very post you suggested Fortification and PRR/MRR as though it would be any better than that - in fact it would be worse, as it would only make them take longer to kill and not actually make them any more dangerous.


I wasn't recommending it. If they wanted to increase the difficulty in a "cost effective way" then giving them the same defenses that players have is a logical first step.


Hey, I'm with ya here! More interesting effects for/from mobs is always great in my book - unfortunately many of the folks complaining about the added difficulty imposed by these Champions have also complained about similar mob effects in the past. I seem to remember a Lama discussion revolving around massive disapproval for mobs sporting Rainbow procs, I'll see if I can dig that up for ya.

Straight-up Rainbow procs would be a bad idea because there's things like unavoidable insta-kills (e.g. teleport into space.) I'm not recommending that. Disjunction, Cursed Wound, lower PRR/MRR, etc. are effects that are more interesting and are more debilitating to some players than others.


I didn't say they were immersive identifiers - but kindly make up your mind please, either they are unmarked, or they sport Burger King crowns - but they can't possibly be unmarked while showing Burger King crowns yet you've claimed both...

The markers are part of the UI, like the stealth awareness indicators are. There is not literally a crown hovering above them, that is feedback for the player.


Yeah, it's almost like there's some randomness involved or something...

Yes, and it shouldn't be random. We shouldn't get skeletons who resist what has been their 'weakness' since the dawn of DnD.


Nope, theres a pair of gloves in a korthos quest that has a shield clicky.


You have me there. Still, it's too much damage.

Also, after running some heroic elites on a new toon, champions are not as bad as people have been saying, but I have run into a couple of the one-shot champs. They appeared to have two damage buffs (so like 16x or whatever.) I don't think that's WAI, and I also think that's why some people haven't been having a lot of problems with them (they haven't encountered the uber ones.)

[valarmorghuliis]

You are wrong, you get less Favor, lose your BB streak, less XP on top of that, and the same gear might be available but you don't get the same chances for it. I have been playing EE for a very long time and I don't see why I should have to stop playing it now because I am not enjoying Champions.

The reason you should have to stop playing EE is because it now offers a challenge you don't want to accept. That being said I believe I have thought of a solution Turbine can use to calm everyone that is mad they can't sleepwalk through the entire game on elite anymore and without taking up a ton of dev time.

Rename casual to normal, normal to hard, hard to elite and call elite mythic or something. After that throw in the patch notes that you have removed hard streak bonus and cut elite streak bonus in half but good news everyone ... There is now a mythic streak bonus but WARNING you may actually need to work to be able to maintain it.

It's perfect... You get to cakewalk ee still and people that want to be even slightly challenged have the option to do so on "mythic difficulty". Best of all Turbine could bang those changes out and get back to playing IRL Pacman or whatever they get up to when they aren't checking what the slowest selling pack that doesn't have an epic version already is to get a jump start on U26

[Rykka]

Did you try the next lower difficulty?

Ya know there's also the option of grouping. 2-3 first life (decent build) players makes champions trivial on elite. just sayin.

[Loholt-UK]

Every single Heroic LFM up right now on Thelanis is either Elite or a wilderness area. I don't see many "options" here.

If you click on "Create/Edit LFM" you have unlimited options.

Has anyone who ever complains about the lack of LFMs ever posted one?

[Chai]

When I put up LFMS for H and N people join. Ive been doing this every TR after I already ran elite in an area, and would rather get more XP out of the same area than do a different area. A major part of the issue here is because elite has become the expected norm throughout the years, people don't put LFMs up for anything else. When they do get put up however, people show up.

[phillymiket]

If you click on "Create/Edit LFM" you have unlimited options.

Has anyone who ever complains about the lack of LFMs ever posted one?
The number type of LFMs posted reflect what people are running.

Zero Normal LFMs indicate that there is little interest in Normal.

Besides, we all know new people are very reluctant to create LFMs.

Chances are, a new person will see no LFMs and either solo or log-out rather than post themselves.

You can say "That's on them" and it is, but, bottom line it's not good for the health of the game.

Vets generally run the LFM board and new people, generally, join in (or try) with whatever the Vet's are doing.

This is a social dynamic and is unlikely to change anytime soon but only after a long shift in atmosphere.

Does DDO have the breathing room for the community of new players to "work it out" and "band together"?

I'm not sure.

But what I do know is that whenever I try a new social game, if there is nothing to do and the game is frustrating to play solo, then I quit.

I am unlikely to "take charge" and form a guild or something in a new environment.

I'd guess that's a pretty common human thing.

But i'm no psychologist/game-designer, so maybe wrong.

Maybe there should be something to guide new players about grouping?

Setting - (In the Grotto)
Geets: That's it matey, Now hit <Create LFM>
Geets: You've done it! Now let's watch the teammates roll in!
Celemas(clr lv20/8) requests to join your party
Talbron:I squelcher her. If she joins i drop.

[1Soulless1]

Setting - (In the Grotto)
Geets: That's it matey, Now hit <Create LFM>
Geets: You've done it! Now let's watch the teammates roll in!
Celemas(clr lv20/8) requests to join your party
Talbron:I squelcher her. If she joins i drop.


Best post ever! :)

[Peaboken]

Given that playing at lower difficulty nets less experience points. Given that each level requires an increasing amount of experience points to level. It follows that a player following the advice to play at a lower difficulty level will result in replaying quests in order to level up their character. No one likes grinding. Why do you hate other people so much?

[Qhualor]

Given that playing at lower difficulty nets less experience points. Given that each level requires an increasing amount of experience points to level. It follows that a player following the advice to play at a lower difficulty level will result in replaying quests in order to level up their character. No one likes grinding. Why do you hate other people so much?

You forgot drop rate chances are lower for named loot and you earn less favor. Any other reasons why elite should continue to get easier? Any other reasons why casuals and less than elite skilled players want elite players to play on the same level as them?

[Connman]

... No one likes grinding. ...

What? MMO players like grinding, that is all and MMO is, you grind levels to raid, you grinds raids for loot, so you can play higher difficulties, and get better loot.

That is basically, well what an MMO is, grinding.

Ultimately this is like going into subway and being all like to the other customers, ugh, nobody likes subs why are you all here?!?

**EDIT***

And unlike many other MMO's you are not "required" to have that 1 specific gear set that is best in slot to get accepted here. Man we just take anybody and go faceroll stuff. Your wearing korthos gear, whatever...

[HAL]

The reason you should have to stop playing EE is because it now offers a challenge you don't want to accept.

It's too bad so many people have such bad reading comprehension: I said I didn't enjoy champions, not that they were a challenge. Mobs with more HP are not a challenge. Getting one-shot occasionally is not a challenge. Its stupid to have trash that are better in combat than bosses. Plus, I enjoyed the pacing of pre-U24 EE.

[valarmorghuliis]

It's too bad so many people have such bad reading comprehension: I said I didn't enjoy champions, not that they were a challenge. Mobs with more HP are not a challenge. Getting one-shot occasionally is not a challenge. Its stupid to have trash that are better in combat than bosses. Plus, I enjoyed the pacing of pre-U24 EE.

We seem to be meaning slightly different things by challenge. When I say it I more mean a risk of failure or requiring you to not be on autopilot. It's less about top end players being able to get through it but just needing more time to me. It's about the fact that prior to this change every quest in the game could be 100% guaranteed completion with just accepting the first 5 people to hit your lfm and using the tactics of "everyone here? Actually I don't care ... race yah to the end". With Champions in the mix, even if I go in with 5 people I know, if we all go on autopilot and just run to the end as quick as we can and just stop to kill when the harried gets too annoying we have a chance to wipe.

That challenge that you got when you ran into something that you needed to all get together and work as a team. When you talked things out and had party roles and saw that by thinking about the objective intelligently you as a group were able to almost painlessly deal with something that you'd seen other groups wipe on. That feeling of triumph that you got from completing an objective that demanded something from you as a player (whether it was quest knowledge, group tactics, or twitch skill )

That feeling and the fact that the combat system allowed for a much more dynamic play style with dodging and kiting to avoid being hit by mobs and traps, which in turn made this game unique in that the player behind the keyboard was a lot more important than what the toon had on or what its level splits were.

That was what drew me to this game and that is what kept me here for a while.

We haven't had that in a long time and I didn't really realize how much I missed that sense of danger until I saw a glimmer of it with the new champions. Rather than the usual buff everything way that power creep is usually addressed they actually managed to insert something that forces you to pay even a little bit of attention. They definitely aren't perfect but they are a step in the right direction. The challenge, versatility in character building, lack of "must have this exact gear set up or you're useless" and overall shift of playerskill is more important than what the toon looks like on paper is what set DDO apart from its competitors and for the first time in years we are seeing a shift back towards that rather than the laughably watered down version of itself it had been steadily changing into over the past while.

And the overwhelming response to that is "It's not ok that there is something in the game that can slow me down or make me have to play intelligently and possibly even group"

There's no need to worry about an elite streak ... there is a silly amount of xp available in this game. You can play the content that suits the level of challenge you want and if you want to run an elite and feel you aren't up to the task alone throw up a pug meet some new people and recapture that feeling of actually playing with people rather than just in the same dungeon as them.


EDIT: sorry for the wall of text... apparently I have more feels about the issue than I thought.

TLDR; I like the concept of champions because it makes sleepwalking through the hardest content of the game slightly risky. It could use tweaking though.

[Peaboken]

What? MMO players like grinding, that is all and MMO is, you grind levels to raid, you grinds raids for loot, so you can play higher difficulties, and get better loot.

That is basically, well what an MMO is, grinding.

Ultimately this is like going into subway and being all like to the other customers, ugh, nobody likes subs why are you all here?!?

**EDIT***

And unlike many other MMO's you are not "required" to have that 1 specific gear set that is best in slot to get accepted here. Man we just take anybody and go faceroll stuff. Your wearing korthos gear, whatever...

I am sorry but I think we aren't talking about the same thing. When I say grinding, I mean playing the same quest over and over on the same life. I like to play each quest in DDO once per life. The bravery bonus eliminated the need to play a quest over and over to acquire the experience points to level. I appreciate some like to play WizKing (hx4, e), but that's not my idea of fun. They play the way they want and enjoy it. Good for them. Its just not something I enjoy. Guess that means I am not an MMO player.

My experience with more experienced players has been mostly negative. (Ex. "What kind of dumb*** 9th lvl FS doesn't have raise dead?" Me I guess. I promise to pick it up next level.) I've given up on LFMs because the experience soured me.

[cdemeritt]

I am sorry but I think we aren't talking about the same thing. When I say grinding, I mean playing the same quest over and over on the same life. I like to play each quest in DDO once per life. The bravery bonus eliminated the need to play a quest over and over to acquire the experience points to level. I appreciate some like to play WizKing (hx4, e), but that's not my idea of fun. They play the way they want and enjoy it. Good for them. Its just not something I enjoy. Guess that means I am not an MMO player.

My experience with more experienced players has been mostly negative. (Ex. "What kind of dumb*** 9th lvl FS doesn't have raise dead?" Me I guess. I promise to pick it up next level.) I've given up on LFMs because the experience soured me.

First: I'm going to assume Your Forum Login is new, and you have not just joined DDO...
Then: I'm going to ask "Been Playing Long? 'cus that is DDO.... and it has been that way for a very long time...

[phillymiket]

Best post ever! :)

I was kidding... but really not.

Why not have a tutorial part about grouping in "The Grotto"?

Have it be a fake party where you post in a canned fake LFM pannle and you "add" Talbron to the group after he clicks to join?

Would be super easy to program I would think.

The simplest solutions sometimes have a much bigger effect than sweeping changes.

[cdemeritt]

I was kidding... but really not.

Why not have a tutorial part about grouping in "The Grotto"?

Have it be a fake party where you post in a canned fake LFM pannle and you "add" Talbron to the group after he clicks to join?

Would be super easy to program I would think.

The simplest solutions sometimes have a much bigger effect than sweeping changes.



I think this is a solid Idea. I wish they had implemented something like this from the start. The LFM panel, while easy once you get use to it, is not something that you'd think to look for when new.

[Connman]

The next lower difficulty is so easy that the monsters might as well not even be there.

I was re-reading this thread and I realized i would like to ask you a question. And not necessarily you directly, but anyone who has ever asked challenge seeking players this:


"If you want challenge just make your own challenge, take off all that super raid loot you earned."

So I would like to ask you this, if having already tried the next lower difficulty and found it too easy, why don't you just make Your own challenge by un-equiping the best equipment that you have and running quests on normal with Korthos gear.

[phillymiket]

I was re-reading this thread and I realized i would like to ask you a question. And not necessarily you directly, but anyone who has ever asked challenge seeking players this:


"If you want challenge just make your own challenge, take off all that super raid loot you earned."

So I would like to ask you this, if having already tried the next lower difficulty and found it too easy, why don't you just make Your own challenge by un-equiping the best equipment that you have and running quests on normal with Korthos gear.

^That's a valid question^

I think the answer is: both solutions are silly.

Nobody wants to play chess where you have to "throw" a move or two to make it close.

Totally unfun.

If I pull Raid Loot I am wearing it. Period.

The DEVS need to provide content to fit the gear they have created and ALSO content for those who do not posses it yet. Period.

Neither End-Game Vet or New Players can or should have to create their own level appropriate content by hamstring themselves.

[Hafeal]

philly, you had great posts in this thread.

Particularly:





Funny how, once again, something that could have been wholly positive for all - like adding a new super-hard Champion level above Elite - has instead been introduced in a completely divisive way that, once again, pits the Defenders Of The New People -vs- The Vet Brigade.



This debacle of Champions is solely brought by the devs on themselves - causing players to pit themselves more against each other. It seems like no matter whom the devs are, they repeat the same mistakes through the years in introducing perceived game-changing designs without notice or without adequate vetting by players. Maybe this is why DDO has never met its full potential.

Honestly, a lot of the arguing here is resovable, I believe. I hope the devs can do that sorting through the noice without taking too much time and losing players. Obviously they felt enough heat to make changes quickly.

[DarthCaedus]

philly, you had great posts in this thread.

Particularly:




This debacle of Champions is solely brought by the devs on themselves - causing players to pit themselves more against each other. It seems like no matter whom the devs are, they repeat the same mistakes through the years in introducing perceived game-changing designs without notice or without adequate vetting by players. Maybe this is why DDO has never met its full potential.

Honestly, a lot of the arguing here is resovable, I believe. I hope the devs can do that sorting through the noice without taking too much time and losing players. Obviously they felt enough heat to make changes quickly.

Yep, the devs are stealing Ronald Reagen's move. Back in the 80s he armed Iraq and secretly armed Iran and used those funds to help rebels we supported. Iran and Iraq brutally fought each other for 10 years leaving the rest of the world alone and helping lower oil prices as both nations ramped up their supply to fund their war machines.

If not for the continual casual vs. power gamer discussions on these forums, the player base would be united this is a sucky way to introduce challenge. We've been asking for a better end game plan since before stormhorns. Instead we get this which is a one-size fits all for the guy capped characters and first lifers. And there will never be enough people to support groups running all these quests on all the different difficulties. The difficulty choices are for solo players. Almost everyone else runs elite.

I don't like the one-shotting because it's just another time sink getting in the way of completing lifes. I don't find it challenging in the least that an enemy can do 1500 damage to me. I didn't dupe cards so I don't have unlimited cakes.

i want a real end game not this.

[Connman]

^That's a valid question^

I think the answer is: both solutions are silly.



They are essentially the same question, it sounds a lot sillier when I ask it though, and kind of puts it in perspective.

[Qhualor]

Yep, the devs are stealing Ronald Reagen's move. Back in the 80s he armed Iraq and secretly armed Iran and used those funds to help rebels we supported. Iran and Iraq brutally fought each other for 10 years leaving the rest of the world alone and helping lower oil prices as both nations ramped up their supply to fund their war machines.

If not for the continual casual vs. power gamer discussions on these forums, the player base would be united this is a sucky way to introduce challenge. We've been asking for a better end game plan since before stormhorns. Instead we get this which is a one-size fits all for the guy capped characters and first lifers. And there will never be enough people to support groups running all these quests on all the different difficulties. The difficulty choices are for solo players. Almost everyone else runs elite.

I don't like the one-shotting because it's just another time sink getting in the way of completing lifes. I don't find it challenging in the least that an enemy can do 1500 damage to me. I didn't dupe cards so I don't have unlimited cakes.

i want a real end game not this.

I had a whole thing typed out, but im just going to say that I really do hope that the devs aren't listening to you. every once in awhile someone like you comes along to dispute what was common knowledge and try to present things as fact. you threaten to leave the game unless the devs nerf Champions down to trash mobs level and threaten to not spend any money on the game, but still hang around the forums trying real hard to defend yourself. well guess what...

the devs are listening to you. so far in my small sample size of EH and EE tonight, CASUALIZATION IS WINNING AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[oldfatman]

I had a whole thing typed out, but im just going to say that I really do hope that the devs aren't listening to you. every once in awhile someone like you comes along to dispute what was common knowledge and try to present things as fact. you threaten to leave the game unless the devs nerf Champions down to trash mobs level and threaten to not spend any money on the game, but still hang around the forums trying real hard to defend yourself. well guess what...

the devs are listening to you. so far in my small sample size of EH and EE tonight, CASUALIZATION IS WINNING AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First of all if you read beyond Ronald Regan, you are doing it wrong.
Second of all, Casuals are being catered too, for now.

Hell maybe we could just trade off, one week have the game hard and the people that like challenge can play here and the people that don't can play Neverwinter, WOW or whatever they deem to be better than DDO with champs.

On the weeks the games are easy people that want to play something challenging, they can go play AION, my favorite NC soft game, or something like call of duty, you think its bad to be a noob here with the big scarry monsters, go be a noob where the ai is a guy with a $100 keyboard, and a serious desire to KILL ALL NOOBZ!

At this point just give me the ability to turn the BK logo off so I am not set up for disappointment.

And Qhualor, you need to stop making so much sense, I am starting to like you, it makes me feel funny.

[DarthCaedus]

I had a whole thing typed out, but im just going to say that I really do hope that the devs aren't listening to you. every once in awhile someone like you comes along to dispute what was common knowledge and try to present things as fact. you threaten to leave the game unless the devs nerf Champions down to trash mobs level and threaten to not spend any money on the game, but still hang around the forums trying real hard to defend yourself. well guess what...

the devs are listening to you. so far in my small sample size of EH and EE tonight, CASUALIZATION IS WINNING AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why would they need to there are numerous posts on the official topic thread and the complaints were amazingly consistent. Of the 2 main issues I only commented on the one-shotting.

I have been a very strong supporter of this game financially and on the forums until Friday. I feel the dev changes are good, but unfortunately I won't have a chance to test those until Thursday at the earliest.

My understanding is the damage is reduced 25% on EE and the spawn rate is being reduced slightly to 8%, but it's still a significiant boost compared to pre-U24. I'll let you know after I am able to test.

[DarthCaedus]

First of all if you read beyond Ronald Regan, you are doing it wrong.
Second of all, Casuals are being catered too, for now.

Hell maybe we could just trade off, one week have the game hard and the people that like challenge can play here and the people that don't can play Neverwinter, WOW or whatever they deem to be better than DDO with champs.

On the weeks the games are easy people that want to play something challenging, they can go play AION, my favorite NC soft game, or something like call of duty, you think its bad to be a noob here with the big scarry monsters, go be a noob where the ai is a guy with a $100 keyboard, and a serious desire to KILL ALL NOOBZ!

At this point just give me the ability to turn the BK logo off so I am not set up for disappointment.

And Qhualor, you need to stop making so much sense, I am starting to like you, it makes me feel funny.

This made me smile. Thank you.

[BD_]

^That's a valid question^

I think the answer is: both solutions are silly.

Nobody wants to play chess where you have to "throw" a move or two to make it close.

Totally unfun.

If I pull Raid Loot I am wearing it. Period.

The DEVS need to provide content to fit the gear they have created and ALSO content for those who do not posses it yet. Period.

Neither End-Game Vet or New Players can or should have to create their own level appropriate content by hamstring themselves.

Disclaimer: This is a bit of a smartass comment, but also true too so...

In chess among fairly good players while not common, it is done, where give "odds" to a weaker player and start down a piece - for example If I'm playing someone I beat (more than) 9 times out of 10, I might give them rook odds (I start with only one rook) when we want to make the game more even - in most cases we'd just play normally and I'd be expected to win most of the time and it be a learning experience for them. Time odds in speed chess is much more common - where I might set my clock at say 4 minutes and give a weaker player 8 minutes.

In many recreational competitive games there are handicap systems that are used to even the playing field. Handicap in golf (when used) - or a handicap in bowling leagues for example. The game of go is almost exclusively played (except at the very highest level) with a handicap where the stronger player starts giving the weaker player a number of stones (similar to free moves) in advance to try to make the game even.

Ok that being said, I agree: the whole point of getting loot in a game is to use... That doesn't make doing things like playing one character without twinking any less valid as a method of giving yourself a challenge for a change though...

[Gremmlynn]

You do not get to furiously rant about how the "too hard" part should be dumbed down for you... you're being selfish and entitled and ruining the game for people who desire challenge but do not have any choices that are harder than Elite.Actually we all pretty much get to come here and rant about anything game related and some times even things not really game related, such as who might be acting selfishly or entitled.

[phillymiket]

Disclaimer: This is a bit of a smartass comment, but also true too so...

In chess among fairly good players while not common, it is done, where give "odds" to a weaker player and start down a piece - for example If I'm playing someone I beat (more than) 9 times out of 10, I might give them rook odds (I start with only one rook) when we want to make the game more even - in most cases we'd just play normally and I'd be expected to win most of the time and it be a learning experience for them. Time odds in speed chess is much more common - where I might set my clock at say 4 minutes and give a weaker player 8 minutes.

In many recreational competitive games there are handicap systems that are used to even the playing field. Handicap in golf (when used) - or a handicap in bowling leagues for example. The game of go is almost exclusively played (except at the very highest level) with a handicap where the stronger player starts giving the weaker player a number of stones (similar to free moves) in advance to try to make the game even.

Ok that being said, I agree: the whole point of getting loot in a game is to use... That doesn't make doing things like playing one character without twinking any less valid as a method of giving yourself a challenge for a change though...

It's rude to argue with factual information. I'm sticking with my bad analogy over your "facts".

Yeah, i have no idea what I'm talking about. But thank you and +1 for the interesting **Fun Fact** about Chess handicapping. i didn't know that.

:-)

[Gremmlynn]

It's too much work for the devs. That's basically asking for a 5th and 6th difficulty option. We have 4 options already - casual, normal, hard and elite. If you don't want champions run normal or casual. Besides, this is supposed to be a new feature in the game. Not an optional one. The whole point of champions was to cancel out some of the big power creep we've had the past couple updates (new ship buffs, orchard gear, pally buff, bard buff, heavy armor buff, ect.) that had made the game too easy. Making them optional in every difficulty would defeat the purpose of creating them in the first place.I find all of that hard to believe since the only purpose for anything in the game is to provide an enjoyable play experience for every player. More player options do that a lot more than mechanics designed to sort, and reward, players by where they fit into it. That simply doesn't work due to the fact that those players who find they are getting the short end of the stick are likely to opt out of playing at all regardless of whether they feel they are just getting what they deserve or are willing to put the effort into getting.

Lost customers are lost customers, regardless of the reason.

[Gremmlynn]

someone please tell me why people are entitled to gain access to max loots, max xp and max favor unless they are willing to struggle to get there. Isn't that what the game is about? Through hardships you earn better rewards?

Uber characters, I wonder how they got that way. Nowadays everyone gets a special trophy.Mostly because this is a game that people have the option to play and spend money on, or not.

The game wasn't developed to allow a few people to feel better about themselves due to their dedication at gaining virtual achievements. It was developed to as a business venture by Turbine to allow them to achieve real profits on the investment they put into making, maintaining, hosting and further developing it. The ability of a minority to chest thump and proclaim their superiority over the majority at a, basically meaningless and fully optional, activity runs more counter to that goal than furthering it. As fewer people who have any reason to play means fewer people paying them to do so.

[Gremmlynn]

You're not "just curious". Loaded language... just make your point.

It's an online game where changes don't happen in isolation.

It affects me because so few people play I would probably end up grouping with non champion people a lot.If this is the case then I would question the wisdom of adding them at all. If the game has to force the other 5 to do something they otherwise wouldn't to satisfy the one who would, how is that a good change as it just gives those 5 a potential reason to not play at all?

[Gremmlynn]

HAL, Just curious, how do you feel about free health care and food stamp?

Because it seems to me this sense of entitlement you have of "I should be allowed to have the same things as the people that worked really hard without working at all myself"

IE XP and LOOTS and FAVOR lol

OH and HAL?

HAVE YOU TRIED A LOWER DIFFICULTY?A question for you. Are either food or (in the US) health care optional? Really poor analogy once you answer that question and realize that playing DDO is optional, to the point where it's not even something that most people would even consider doing or even know, or care, exists.

So Turbine actually has to get people to want to play the game if they are going to make any money off their product. That means that if xp loot and favor are what is selling, it's what they should make achievable to as many players as possible or someone else will and take the market share.

I'm not Hal, but to answer your question. Personally, I think the world would be a much better place if neither of those things were something anyone ever had to worry about. While you seem to think that the virtual worlds we create should strive to add such things. Why is that?

[Gremmlynn]

It's too bad so many people have such bad reading comprehension: I said I didn't enjoy champions, not that they were a challenge. Mobs with more HP are not a challenge. Getting one-shot occasionally is not a challenge. Its stupid to have trash that are better in combat than bosses. Plus, I enjoyed the pacing of pre-U24 EE.The biggest issue I have is the degree they can change the overall challenge of a quest. So running a level 6 elite quest could be anything from a level 8 challenge to about a level 12 challenge depending on how many champions you get, what buffs they have and where they appear in the quest. A bit of randomness is fine, but what we currently have is to much and has the potential to make running a quest a frustrating auto-fail, that has to be repeated until a more nominal matrix comes up.

For those who have no issue with this degree of disparity (frankly, I can say I have had little trouble) this isn't much of an issue, as it's the difference between tolerably hard and easier than that. But for many I've played with, it's like a small slice of hell just got inserted into their gaming routine from their reactions.

[Chai]

Just cross referenced the complaints that epic normal and epic hard were not different in any way whatsoever when that was implemented, to the current claims that champions should have a toggle switch so people don't have to face them if they don't want to.

Quite a bit of overlap in those feedback threads.

[Gremmlynn]

^That's a valid question^

I think the answer is: both solutions are silly.

Nobody wants to play chess where you have to "throw" a move or two to make it close.

Totally unfun.

If I pull Raid Loot I am wearing it. Period.

The DEVS need to provide content to fit the gear they have created and ALSO content for those who do not posses it yet. Period.

Neither End-Game Vet or New Players can or should have to create their own level appropriate content by hamstring themselves.IMO, the devs shot themselves in the foot with this by making named/raid gear to much better than more common gear (a lot of this is due to having to follow the tiers from the PnP game DDO is based on though). The same for build options. The fact that some characters would be more fit for quests they can't even enter due to level gating (in heroics anyway) due to gear and build knowledge shows this IMO.

[Connman]

...The ability of a minority to chest thump and proclaim their superiority over the majority..

Isn't this essentially what you do in your posts, being better than anyone who shares a different view than you?

[arcane_nite]

So Elite should be impossible with Monster Champions for a casual player.

Gotcha,
Thanks.

Yes! its there to motivate you to upgrade ur toon and learn to play.

[HAL]

We seem to be meaning slightly different things by challenge.

No, you said:


The reason you should have to stop playing EE is because it now offers a challenge you don't want to accept.

You assume that I don't like champions because they offer some kind of challenge. I'm not sure why you assume that since I never said it. I said that "I'm not enjoying Champions". There are some people who don't enjoy puzzles. If Turbine suddenly put required puzzles in every single quest there would probably be a lot of people complaining about that.


When I say it I more mean a risk of failure or requiring you to not be on autopilot.

This is not only making assumptions but also insulting.

[Chai]

So Elite should be impossible with Monster Champions for a casual player.

Gotcha,
Thanks.

Nope. It should be a goal to strive toward as the player learns the game more and makes progress. If people can run elite right off the bat, theres no reason to make any progress.

Making elite "no fail" for new and casual players makes it far too easy for vets. There are three difficulties lower than elite which can be run by those learning the game. There are no other difficulties higher than elite.

The difficulty settings need to reflect the adjectives used to describe them. "Elite" as a difficulty setting should not be synonymous with "100% of the population can run this with 0% fail rate".

[Gremmlynn]

Isn't this essentially what you do in your posts, being better than anyone who shares a different view than you?Pretty much, but I don't base my livelihood on those lesser beings seeing the light. I deal with customers in a much different manner, as I actually have a reason to care how they respond to it.

[ElrondElfKing]

I',m only on my first second-life toon. When I go into a dungeon on elite, or even hard, I expect to get whacked a lot. When I die over and over, I don't go whining to the devs about it. I take a look at myself. It could be my skill level in jumping or managing mazes, could be my unfamiliarity with the quest, could be my toon is gimped. More often than not my toon is gimped. I go back and look at why it's gimped, study the forums and web sites a little, and improve my toon little by little. It's called a learning curve, and it's part of the game. It's part of life. Make your own corrections and don't whine to the devs so much. Leave Elite to the elites. That's what its for.

[bartharok]

Pretty much, but I don't base my livelihood on those lesser beings seeing the light. I deal with customers in a much different manner, as I actually have a reason to care how they respond to it.

You mean screaming PAY UP at them?

[Gremmlynn]

You mean screaming PAY UP at them?I wouldn't recommend it unless you are in, say, the loan sharking business and are holding a hammer above their knee cap. In most cases though customers have other options and it's best to convince them you are their best option. Screaming rarely helps with that.

[bartharok]

I wouldn't recommend it unless you are in, say, the loan sharking business and are holding a hammer above their knee cap. In most cases though customers have other options and it's best to convince them you are their best option. Screaming rarely helps with that.

Well, then not screaming at people here would work better as well, i suppose...

[Zzevel]

BTW Scrabbler: I'm perfectly fine with Champions being added to Normal mode please don't put words in my post I put too many of them in myself already. However I'd assumed that this would be disagreeable to the people who want easy content options.

I agree with everything you're saying IronClan... Champions are here to stay the SHOULD cause a rucus and force people to group. They are a POSSIBLE solution to a lot of issues as they exist in DDO. A check box is NOT an option it is just an easy button to allow people to run a quest on a level they are NOT SUPPOSED to sustain. Champions should be the base to fix many issues, I want to reiterate one possible future: Why not take it a step farther and change the difficulty settings all together. Make all quests base difficulty EXACTLY the same then differentiate the toughness and XP gained with grouping and Champions.

Casual + ~0% Champions
Normal + ~10% Champions
Hard + ~30% Champions
Elite +~65% Champions
Champion Mode :100% Champions!

You could even adjust the % (+/- 1/3/5 per player in the group), and then REWARD people for attacking the quest at a higher difficulty by grouping to get it done. This can replace that AWESOME Dungeon Scaling everybody loves...

XP modeling could be standardized to a Base Quest XP + Bonus/per Champion Kill + Bonus/per player in group + Other Bonus (BB/Ship/Pot/Voice Etc..)

[Inoukchuk]

Could it be what people are really objecting to is that they can no longer get max XP for minimum time/risk of failure?

At risk of offending many, including my friends... yes, I think that's the issue. People have become accustomed to running a certain difficulty (be that HE, EH, or EE) and absolutely feel like they are being punished by this update forcing them to play a lower difficulty and incurring a much longer and less satisfying grind to get EPLs, hPLs, EDs, etc.

My own guild leader just informed us he's taking a break, mostly due to the champions change (which he clearly dislikes). To some it just feels like a random and unfair mechanic, and I can totally understand all these folks.

I'm a casual veteran (contradiction?) with decent PLs and gear currently running a paladin TR at level 6 (as of last night). In the first day or so of the change I died a couple of times in level 2 quests when I encountered some of the more broken champions without proper caution. Since then I've had no problems on elite streak, and recently feel as if they mostly don't even slow me down. Now, I have like 6 PLs, 1 EPL, decent low level twink gear (crafted mostly), and am admittedly playing a strong FOTM build; pure paladin vanguard (don't think I've ever done that before.... by the time I get around to contemplating a FOTM build it was nerfed/overshadowed 12 months ago and I like playing my own creations), so not everyone will have as easy a time of it.

Personally I like the changes since it adds a little variety to otherwise stale quests. That said I may not appreciate it so much when I want to run Coal Chamber, or even some of the more challenging low-level necro quests that may get overwhelming with any abundance of champs in them.

I think everyone just needs to step back for a second and say "OK... I personally like/don't like this change, but can I see and understand how someone else may see it differently". You don't get this much hot debate about a topic without both sides having valid points, so where can we find a compromise that suits the needs of the most (no solution will likely suit everyone).

I think the recent modification to the new system is a good compromise. Those that dislike champions need to give it some time, adjust to a new approach, and maybe accept that elite should actually be elite, not standard. Those that want it to be even harder need to appreciate that this really does in reality punish less accomplished gamers who already feel like it takes forever to TR/ETR/grind EDs and gear. They don't necessarily want things "given" to them, they want those things to be achievable by them in a reasonable time frame, and their needs/wants are just as valid as yours.

Personally I think the only way to accomplish this is to lessen the difference in experience between the difficulties.... but then you get people (sometimes the same ones that complain the game is too easy) running on normal because it's more efficient. The catch-22 is, if you don't provide incentive to run elite, nobody will (even if they want the challenge) and they will complain about that, but if you do then everyone feels forced to run elite and punished if they can't. Providing more xp/loot to the people that already get levels/loot 5x as fast seems silly, yet if you don't do it you make elite pointless. What's the solution? Try not to be selfish when thinking of your reply.

[fmalfeas]

Personally, I'd say to do something like this. Lower the XP /and/ loot incentive for Elite. Up it a bit for hard and normal. Leave it terrible for Casual. Then, give elite a significantly higher drop than normal (which still wouldn't be huge, but noticeable) of store items...most specifically, cosmetic stuff. Including cosmetic stuff that isn't in the store. Colors of glowing eyes that the store doesn't carry. Glitter for creature companions that the store doesn't stock (maybe black shadowscale smoke for your rat pet).

That way, while elite still has an xp and loot incentive, it's not a huge of a departure from Hard as it is now. On the other hand, Elite is more likely to supply them with things like store potions (to help them run Elite more...but in small quantity) and cosmetics you're really only gonna see from Elite runs...giving them obvious bragging rights, so anyone can glance at them and say 'that's an elite runner'.

Feed the ego for elite, instead of feeding the powercreep.

[Inoukchuk]

Personally, I'd say to do something like this. Lower the XP /and/ loot incentive for Elite. Up it a bit for hard and normal. Leave it terrible for Casual. Then, give elite a significantly higher drop than normal (which still wouldn't be huge, but noticeable) of store items...most specifically, cosmetic stuff. Including cosmetic stuff that isn't in the store. Colors of glowing eyes that the store doesn't carry. Glitter for creature companions that the store doesn't stock (maybe black shadowscale smoke for your rat pet).

That way, while elite still has an xp and loot incentive, it's not a huge of a departure from Hard as it is now. On the other hand, Elite is more likely to supply them with things like store potions (to help them run Elite more...but in small quantity) and cosmetics you're really only gonna see from Elite runs...giving them obvious bragging rights, so anyone can glance at them and say 'that's an elite runner'.

Feed the ego for elite, instead of feeding the powercreep.

A reasonable idea, thanks for posting!

I think reducing or eliminating BB and replacing it with something else could help improve grouping and maybe close the gap also. Also get rid of death penalty to improve pugging.

[Gremmlynn]

Well, then not screaming at people here would work better as well, i suppose...Work for what and where did I use all caps?

[Gremmlynn]

I agree with everything you're saying IronClan... Champions are here to stay the SHOULD cause a rucus and force people to group. They are a POSSIBLE solution to a lot of issues as they exist in DDO. A check box is NOT an option it is just an easy button to allow people to run a quest on a level they are NOT SUPPOSED to sustain. Champions should be the base to fix many issues, I want to reiterate one possible future: Why not take it a step farther and change the difficulty settings all together. Make all quests base difficulty EXACTLY the same then differentiate the toughness and XP gained with grouping and Champions.

Casual + ~0% Champions
Normal + ~10% Champions
Hard + ~30% Champions
Elite +~65% Champions

You could even adjust the % (+/- 1/3/5 per player in the group), and then REWARD people for attacking the quest at a higher difficulty by grouping to get it done. This can replace that AWESOME Dungeon Scaling everybody loves...

XP modeling could be standardized to a Base Quest XP + Bonus/per Champion Kill + Bonus/per player in group + Other Bonus (BB/Ship/Pot/Voice Etc..)This helps Turbines bottom line how exactly? If even 1% of the games player base leaves due to not having a check box that's 1% fewer customers and nothing else. While I doubt adding a check box would cause any loss. That is all that matters as far as what is or isn't supposed to be. Any sort of reduction in solo play is also likely to cause a loss.

[HAL]

Work for what and where did I use all caps?

I honestly don't understand why people make claims that simply aren't true. We can all go back and see what a person actually wrote.

[Chai]

This helps Turbines bottom line how exactly? If even 1% of the games player base leaves due to not having a check box that's 1% fewer customers and nothing else. While I doubt adding a check box would cause any loss. That is all that matters as far as what is or isn't supposed to be. Any sort of reduction in solo play is also likely to cause a loss.

How about the higher than 1% who already left due to elite becoming the new normal and being told repeatedly if they don't like it they can leave? Where was the bottom line argument at that point in time?

[PermaBanned]

This helps Turbines bottom line how exactly? ... Any sort of reduction in solo play is also likely to cause a loss.Sometimes you must sever a limb to save the body.

[valarmorghuliis]

This is not only making assumptions but also insulting

I guess I still wasn't clear. I wasn't trying to say that your definition of challenge was wrong and I wasn't even saying that you were unable to deal with champions etc.

I was saying that I was misusing the word challenge and that what I should have been saying was having a risk of failure or a requirement to take a beat and stop the auto run to the end.


You assume that I don't like champions because they offer some kind of challenge. I'm not sure why you assume that since I never said it. I said that "I'm not enjoying Champions". There are some people who don't enjoy puzzles. If Turbine suddenly put required puzzles in every single quest there would probably be a lot of people complaining about that.

I wasn't so much assuming as inferring from your prior posts. I had said that I was meaning something that made you pause and change your play behavior and maybe even struggle when I said challenge which falls squarely under the "pacing". From
This is a game. I struggle in real life, I don't want to struggle in a game. Those who wish to struggle should definitely be given a difficulty level that makes them struggle, but don't take away the way I have been playing for a very long time. That is why I support the idea of an option for champions. Then the devs can make champions as hard as they want. And
This. We ran EE Sentinals last night and it was not "more fun". We finished, didn't restart, didn't wipe (although it was close a couple of times) and in other threads on this topic
Its not unknown. Its just another means of slowing us down in quests or one-shotting us. And even in the post that made me realize I was being unnecessarily ambiguous with my use of the word challenge
It's too bad so many people have such bad reading comprehension: I said I didn't enjoy champions, not that they were a challenge. Mobs with more HP are not a challenge. Getting one-shot occasionally is not a challenge. Its stupid to have trash that are better in combat than bosses. Plus, I enjoyed the pacing of pre-U24 EE. (bold not in original)

Based on all of that it didn't feel like much of a leap to say that you weren't a fan of the increased risk of failure through things like potentially being one-shotted or the increased time and required pace changes; the things that I was collectively, if admittedly somewhat erroneously, referring to as "challenge"


This is not only making assumptions but also insulting.

I honestly have no idea how my defining what I meant by a certain term that was somewhat ambiguous and subjective in an effort to ensure clarity of meaning in our discussion could be either of those things.

[phillymiket]

Sometimes you must sever a limb to save the body.

True.

But with a video game, isn't it usually only the groups that the Devs feel have too many cheaters/exploiers/dup'ers that get that extreme "hand grenade in a crowded room" approach?

New players don't even know enough other than to play the game as intended, so they certainly aren't stealing.

In fact, new players usually spend more and are therefore usually catered to by the game companies far more then DDO caters to them IMO.

Let's hope Turbine doesn't start thinking in a 'chop it off for the greater good' way with this group or that.

[Qhualor]

This helps Turbines bottom line how exactly? If even 1% of the games player base leaves due to not having a check box that's 1% fewer customers and nothing else. While I doubt adding a check box would cause any loss. That is all that matters as far as what is or isn't supposed to be. Any sort of reduction in solo play is also likely to cause a loss.

well I can say there have been some players that were pretty excited that it appeared Turbine was making a turnaround by injecting challenge back into the game. not the kind of challenge where some will say to strip naked of the gear you worked for or to start a first life character on another server or don't group with people, solo. the kind of challenge where there was actual risk of failing a quest or dying forcing players to slow their pace down and put an extra second thought into how they would tackle a new tougher mob in front of them and possibly the start of team play that we used to have years ago.

now some of them think the change to Champions was too much of a nerf, even if they agreed they needed to be adjusted. their hopes of bringing a challenge back to the game has been beaten down once again. over the years, people have left because the game has gotten easier. it may be that 1% would leave if there was a check box, but how many times has there been that 1% leaving because of other things done to the game to make it easier? lots of end game and challenge seekers I used to know are not here anymore. they left because of the lack of challenge and they were playing for the sake of challenge back before Ottos, decrease in difficulty, raid timers, P2WAH and other things that make the game easier to play.

to be honest, im even starting to get fed up with all this casualization over the past few years. im trying to hang on hoping that Turbine will bring challenge back, but every time something cool happens (like Champions) you get a bunch of people saying "its too hard on the toughest difficulty. it slows me down when I level my characters for past lives. I need that favor so I can buy free stuff from the store". I was pretty excited about these Champions and for the first time in 3 years I actually started to feel like I might be getting butterflies in my stomach. I hadn't felt them playing this game since pre-MOTU. I was excited that it seemed Turbine was finally listening and challenging elite players and bringing some thrill to the grind and monotony.

im sure Champions will get another adjustment or 2, but my hopes of them being challenging is low.

[valarmorghuliis]

With all that being said it is a cornerstone of an MMO to have a consistent objective difficulty level for all players (by which I mean the stats, damage, HP, buffs etc all fall within the same range if I am playing an EE quest or another person is). There is supposed to be a corollary between the objective challenge of a difficulty level and the rewards (xp, favor, loot chance etc) that go with it.

You keep advocating an opt in/out checkbox in addition to what we currently have for difficulty settings as a solution for the champion issue but that is a fix which is which would un-tether the challenge from the rewards and seem honestly confused as to how people could possibly have a problem with that so let me try to explain it in another way...

When I got back from a break from the game I was told about a bug that had gone on prior to my return that let people basically spend unlimited ap and another one that let them have every twist and destiny core ability all active at once. If I asked for a toggle box to be put in that let me as an individual player make the decision as to whether I wanted to be able to do that or not I would be laughed at, and rightly so. Your hypothetical toggle box and mine, although the routes they take are different, are in reality the same. They both allow for an individual player to select options that make content easier/less time and resource consuming/faster/whateveryouwanttocallit reducing the risk while leaving the reward untouched.

Elite has a bravery bonus and higher drop rates and in some cases tiered loot because it is the hardest content in the game and so players who run it receive a commensurate reward. The equalization and general entitlement that people have developed over the years is somewhat astonishing. All gear is obtainable on all difficulties (something which I have mixed feelings about) and if one wants to avoid the time and effort sink that running EE is for some people they can go to a lower difficulty. The trade off is that the smaller time/effort per run on lower difficulties is balanced out by the lower drop rates/xp amount/streak bonus.

Really it all boils down to the fact that there are already 3 lower difficulty settings than elite but over time people have become accustomed and now feel entitled to elite being the norm, complete-able by any player on any toon, and are very resistant to anything that threatens that game state. The problem is that it does leave a portion of the population (I don't want to get into a casuals vs elite debate because, wonder of wonders, the different difficulty settings would work really well for creating multiple versions of the same content with varying challenge levels thus giving everyone a level that provided the difficulty they sought) completely out in the cold. The calls for nerfing things that have even the potential to shift things back into alignment are quite frankly absurd. People that seek an elite challenge are left with no options because the ability to complete efficiently and consistently on the highest difficulty setting is claimed as to be something that all players regardless of time invested are entitled to and that is just wrong

Quite frankly there is one quote that I feel perfectly sums up why it isn't ok for players who don't want any difficulty with their elite difficulty to call for the challenge to be nerfed in elite. It really highlights the inherent arrogance of insisting on a game that doesn't have any difficulty higher than "New Normal" and how it is really unfair to the players who are actively interested in a real challenge .

A wise man once said:

So you believe that you should decide how difficult the game is for EVERYONE, not just for yourself?

One can always play a lower difficulty than elite... there isn't one above it.

[Xulders]

If one difficulty level is too hard for you, pick the next lower!

"the more you know"

You are not entitled to be death free in EE or cake walk through EH without ever failing. The difficulty levels serve an important purpose, by insisting that the hardest levels be free of challenge or danger, you're quite literally ruining the game for people who need more danger and challenge than you do. Whats more you're selfishly refusing to use the provided lower levels and thoughtlessly worsening the game for those who do not have a harder level they can choose.

OR perhaps worse you're forcing the Developers to make a 5th difficulty level and wasting a whole lot of time converting content and making another "higher level" so that all the people who SHOULDN'T BE PLAYING EE OR EVEN EH can then gradually feel entitled to complain about how hard "Super-duper" is and get it nerfed down to the point where they can breeze through it in turn...

Time to end this madness.

If you come to the Forum and say EE is too hard... You belong in EH... if EH is too hard, you need to select EN... Apparently this simple process is unknown to some people. You do not get to furiously rant about how the "too hard" part should be dumbed down for you... you're being selfish and entitled and ruining the game for people who desire challenge but do not have any choices that are harder than Elite.

-Signed Someone who PUG's EE's every night yet hasn't been in a Party wipe in 5 or 6 months (that didn't involve lag).

As a community service I would like to suggest that all posts of complaint about "such and such is too hard" be met with the following polite response:

Did you try the next lower difficulty?
Yet playing lower difficulty returns useless xp and now your suffer the brainless penalties for repeat play thereby hamstringing noobs & most other non hardcore players from playing effectively, making leveling up so slow that most noobs will lose interest. Added to that if those noobs want to team up to try to get some decent xp they'll find those pompous tr types that either abuse them or refuse to take them, knowing full well that now they'll def wipe with a pug of noobs.

Here's a radical idea, instead of ruining the game for 90% of players, if you find the game to easy, start a new char instead of playing your twinkie overplayed TR and if you still find it too easy tie one hand behind your back.

[PermaBanned]

Let's hope Turbine doesn't start thinking in a 'chop it off for the greater good' way with this group or that.Or just maybe it's high past time they should? It's seems to me that they've tried to appease too many {groups/demographics/market segments/whatever} and haven't really succeeded at appealing to as wide of an audience as possible. Maybe - just maybe - it's time to narrow their focus a bit and make enough happy (read as: wanting to spend more time playing and money paying in support of product) customers (who will again spread a good word of mouth, perhaps contacting some departed friends to say "hey, check it out! It's great again!) out of a particular segment(s).

Which segment(s) should that be? Lol idk but certainly Turbine has the metrics to figure it out. Personally, I of course want them to please the "make the game challenging and difficult of it's hardest setting, even if that means the new and casual players can't handle it" group, for three reasons:

1) I identify with that group.
2) I started out as New & Casual (<- "Casual" meaning I played less than 10 hours in a 7 day Week) and it was the challenge of succeeding at first Hard and the Elite that kept me interested and increasing both my time and finical investment in the game.
3) I'm a selfish human and would prefer the population were expanded with more people like me ;)

[PermaBanned]

Yet playing lower difficulty returns useless xp and now your suffer the brainless penalties for repeat play thereby hamstringing noobs & most other non hardcore players from playing effectively, making leveling up so slow that most noobs will lose interest.There is no useless XP. Noobs aren't on 3rd life characters, and 1st lifers can level just fine with minimal repetition on Normal difficulty. Most players I've known didn't even have a TR until they'd had a few different 1st lifers just from trying out different things. By the time those noobs are TRing they really shouldn't be noobs anymore - unless they simply bought they're way through the game, in which case they only denied themselves the opportunity to learn.


Added to that if those noobs want to team up to try to get some decent xp they'll find those pompous tr types that either abuse them or refuse to take them, knowing full well that now they'll def wipe with a pug of noobs.Bitter much? What you describe is - by all my experiences, and the reported experiences of everyone I've played with & talked to - not the typical new player's grouping experience. Sure, there's some real a-holes ou there, but most of 'em aren't pugging to begin with.


Here's a radical idea, instead of ruining the game for 90% of players, if you find the game to easy, start a new char instead of playing your twinkie overplayed TR...You see, that's supposed to be the beauty of a multi-difficulty system in a game with varying degrees of character power: you can choose the difficulty best suited to your {character's} abilities. If they're going to put scads of character power in the game, then they should put a place where it's useful - and why not have it be useful from level one all the way to cap? A game on it's hardest setting should be, well, as hard as it can be (at any given level).

[valarmorghuliis]

You see, that's supposed to be the beauty of a multi-difficulty system in a game with varying degrees of character power: you can choose the difficulty best suited to your {character's} abilities. If they're going to put scads of character power in the game, then they should put a place where it's useful - and why not have it be useful from level one all the way to cap? A game on it's hardest setting should be, well, as hard as it can be (at any given level).

All of the this^

[phillymiket]

Or just maybe it's high past time they should? It's seems to me that they've tried to appease too many {groups/demographics/market segments/whatever} and haven't really succeeded at appealing to as wide of an audience as possible. Maybe - just maybe - it's time to narrow their focus a bit and make enough happy (read as: wanting to spend more time playing and money paying in support of product) customers (who will again spread a good word of mouth, perhaps contacting some departed friends to say "hey, check it out! It's great again!) out of a particular segment(s).

Which segment(s) should that be? Lol idk but certainly Turbine has the metrics to figure it out. Personally, I of course want them to please the "make the game challenging and difficult of it's hardest setting, even if that means the new and casual players can't handle it" group, for three reasons:

1) I identify with that group.
2) I started out as New & Casual (<- "Casual" meaning I played less than 10 hours in a 7 day Week) and it was the challenge of succeeding at first Hard and the Elite that kept me interested and increasing both my time and finical investment in the game.
3) I'm a selfish human and would prefer the population were expanded with more people like me ;)

I'm no expert or nothing but I have tried a few different games in the last few years.

It seems to me like the model for the most profitable games is:
- Get someone in with great starter gear, simple play, flashy settings, and easy leveling.
- Get them to buy a few key items like a bank and a mount
- Not really care what happens next.
- Get a new person in.

You ask "Which segment would that be?" with regard to a arbitrary Group A -vs- Group B choice?
What do you think the reports and experts etc in the gaming industry would say?
I'm pretty sure if Zeus came down from his mountain top and forced Turbine to choose, they'd go with "New Person".
It's safer and more of a sure thing.

Luckily, it needs not be one or the other.

[Enoach]

I think a lot of people are getting the wrong impression of difficulties. Part of this is because of the character/build power compared to the quests difficulty

Below assumes AT LEVEL based on the Base Quest Level not it's modified level and that Elite was not intended to be ZERG'd

Casual:
New players should find fun at this difficulty through the story line and "solving" the quest objectives as well as exploration. Combat should challenge them but there should be low risk in actually dying (IE not 5 Kobold shamans casting lighting bolt and leaping out of range). While quests should not be built towards being solo there is no reason a quest should not be solo friendly - ie allowing alternate methods to by pass areas that require multiple characters to proceed.

Normal:
New players should find this challenging, they should still be able to enjoy the story and "solving" the quest objectives but the combat should cause them risk as their gear is not stuff they will find when they are 2 levels higher. Geared players soloing this level should find it challenging,

Hard:
Geared Players should find challenge in Groups 4+ solo/short should be more of a challenge, risk should be moderate, under-geared/prepared players should find this challenging and very difficult to solo.

Elite:
Geared Players should find this extremely challenging (And I don't mean load of HP bags to beat on or rooms full of One-Shot your dead). Under-geared/prepared players will find this difficulty nearly undoable, here skill - real skill might help or a tight group utilizing tactics such as body pulling. However, geared or not Elite should not be an AUTO-WIN at level.

[PermaBanned]

It seems to me like the model for the most profitable games is:
- Get someone in with great starter gear, simple play, flashy settings, and easy leveling.
- Get them to buy a few key items like a bank and a mount
- Not really care what happens next.
- Get a new person in.Admittedly, I've done no research into which games/models are most profitable. That said, it sounds highly unlikely that targeting the customer you describe would be more profitable - and certainly not more sustainably profitable - than long term customers.

[arkonas]

I could say that people are exaggerating their claims, but im not. I haven't fully experienced the Champions from levels 1-28 in at least half the quests. so far in most level 13-20 quests that I have run I haven't seen a Champion dealing these high damage numbers or had any real problems with them on my own or in a group. frankly, none of the pug groups ive been in have even slowed down because of Champions. ive had a couple that made me back off and heal up before engaging in the fight again, but nothing for me to rant hard on the forums or threaten to quit the game. not one single person in game have I heard they are having problems with them. I only hear about these problems on the forums. im also the kind of player that if my characters cant handle a certain difficulty that I need to run a lower difficulty. I often drop from elite to hard once I get to 20. I am willing to do that and understand I cant always play elite. why do others feel justified that they need no fail elites?

i wanted to chime into this. I don't want champions removed. I like the idea. There have been a few quests where a champion near killed me but didn't. that was quite fun and made me think. Now on the other hand the heavy damage my group and i experience not including terminal was in mask of deception with the sorcs and assassins. i saw them one shotting some of our group. one hit was 1400. Yes that was from a champ sorc white dragon breath. the assassins didn't hit as hard but it seemed like they were ignoring all fort. so their crits were every hit and quick. one of our players was a great player and came from a top guild at one point. So yes even he died.

when i say tweak i don't want it to be like the emissary where she is more of a joke now then she was. if it does 1400 i would rather see it reduced to a reasonable number but not a you need hp/mrr/prr to live. Btw this was NOT epic elite but epic hard when we ran it. i had already ran on elite to get an idea of it. if i step into epic elite i expect it to hurt. if people want max favor/gear whatever. well you need to earn it. Sorry hal and anyone else. if you can't survive in it don't do it. I will say it right now i know some of my toons suck. I will struggle in some EE while others i did great in. as ironclan and many others said. you need to work your way into it and its suppose to be the hardest. please don't make it easy like hello kitty.


Rift had a few similar issues like us. one was falling damage. So many whined about it. now it was removed. Before you had to be careful of where you were jumping. in that game with mounts. you can end up in some amazing spots. now you can jump anywhere and not care. meh. another thing that came up was some people complained that they didn't get special goodies whenever a special even started or the stuff they gave to the founders. want to know what trion did? they gave some of those special goodies to the people that whined. do you want to know how many people got ****ed off that what use to be special can now be earned by any player? how much of a slap is that to the founders or the people that ran in the events?

if epic elite was made to be easy do you know how many people you would be slapping around? Some of the people worked hard to get to that point while others we know took shortcuts. no matter what that is what would happen. so im for keeping epic elite hard. casual players if you can somehow do it awesome. you did great, but don't expect it to become simple so you can get your favor.

[phillymiket]

Admittedly, I've done no research into which games/models are most profitable. That said, it sounds highly unlikely that targeting the customer you describe would be more profitable - and certainly not more sustainably profitable - than long term customers.

It's a head scratcher.

But it seems to be the new way <sigh>

(but I'm no expert again and certainly have done no research unless playing is reasearch)

I think the thinking is:

- Sub-Only is practically impossible because of competition so getting your start-up back with pre-order can't be counted on.
- Games become obsolete faster and faster.
- Therefore re-coup your investment as fast as possible before a new game takes over.
- You want to have paid the debts before the buzz of the new game wears off
- If "Point where population get's frustrated and leaves" happens after "Point wear game is obsolete due to new competitors" then what did you lose?
- Meanwhile you work on the next version, iteration or a whole new game.

That's why they all level you so fast and then brick-wall you at cap.

They want you to feel like you are good at the game in the begining and "close" to being in with the Top Players so you see a future and buy game investments.

Then they slam the breaks and make end game take a super-long time to progress with gear/unlocks/flags while offering by-pass from the store.

But once you have the Mount, the Bank, once you have "buy"-passed what ever there is to by-pass, what are you good for? A cosmetic? An expansion in the future?

I mean, compared to someone who hasn't made the purchases they are counting on you making, you mean little.

..but that's just my take.

(and no i don't think that all of this is good or desirable for DDO or any game. That's just where we seem to be going)

[Braegan]

One can always play a lower difficulty than elite... there isn't one above it.

I used to agree with that. But all we've seen by this debacle is that the highest setting will just be brought down to placate.

[Braegan]

Also,

I keep seeing this new player stuff getting brought up a lot. Exactly how many new players are we getting with the little to none advertising this game does? Honestly, I would be more worried about keeping my current player base then worried about new comers if I wasn't advertising. Not to say newcomers don't deserve a fair shake but let's get real, without advertising we aren't getting any.

[HAL]

I guess I still wasn't clear. I wasn't trying to say that your definition of challenge was wrong and I wasn't even saying that you were unable to deal with champions etc.

I was saying that I was misusing the word challenge and that what I should have been saying was having a risk of failure or a requirement to take a beat and stop the auto run to the end.

I wasn't so much assuming as inferring from your prior posts. I had said that I was meaning something that made you pause and change your play behavior and maybe even struggle when I said challenge which falls squarely under the "pacing". From And and in other threads on this topic And even in the post that made me realize I was being unnecessarily ambiguous with my use of the word challenge (bold not in original)

Based on all of that it didn't feel like much of a leap to say that you weren't a fan of the increased risk of failure through things like potentially being one-shotted or the increased time and required pace changes; the things that I was collectively, if admittedly somewhat erroneously, referring to as "challenge"

In every one of those quotes except one, I specifically stated that it was not the challenge that was the issue but that I didn't enjoy Champions. You understand that people can fail to enjoy something for reasons besides it being difficult right? Since I specifically stated that I didn't have a problem with the challenge, I'm not sure why you continue to state that I shouldn't play EE because I can't handle the challenge. Its pretty nonsensical.

In the one exception, my post about struggle was a response to someone who was making a general statement that people should struggle to get the highest level of a game. I never said I struggled with Champions.

And if you're going to take quotes from different posts, you should use the link-back to those posts so that people can't see for themselves what was actually going on...


I honestly have no idea how my defining what I meant by a certain term that was somewhat ambiguous and subjective in an effort to ensure clarity of meaning in our discussion could be either of those things.

Because you stated that I didn't want a challenge, and then you defined "challenge" as "a risk of failure or requiring you to not be on autopilot". So you are basically saying that I don't want to play unless there is no risk of failure or unless I can run on autopilot. How is that not an insult? Nevermind that you've never played with me to accuse me of these things.

[bartharok]

Work for what and where did I use all caps?

You have a rather agressive style. It tends to annoy people on the opposite side of the issue, especially when they try remain calm about something.

A matter of style, see.

[valarmorghuliis]

In every one of those quotes except one, I specifically stated that it was not the challenge that was the issue but that I didn't enjoy Champions.
And we're back...

When I say "challenge" I do not mean difficult.

I mean a mechanic that causes people to not be able to complete all content on the highest available difficulty at a full on sprint. I even went on to give a multiparagraph explication in the hopes that I would be able to get the point I was trying to make across and we could continue the dialogue rather than just saying
"its not a challenge"
"When I say 'challenge' I mean something that at least makes you have to occasionally pay attention a little bit"
"It's not a challenge and you are being insulting"

Over and over again.


You understand that people can fail to enjoy something for reasons besides it being difficult right? Since I specifically stated that I didn't have a problem with the challenge

You didn't have a problem with the DIFFICULTY. As I keep trying to get through to you I am not talking about that (although I would very much like to see EE be way more difficult than it currently is). All of those statements of yours that I quoted were examples of the various things that I was trying to say I was talking about when I said challenge... near wipes, needing varied pace and tactics throughout the quest etc.


I'm not sure why you continue to state that I shouldn't play EE because I can't handle the challenge. Its pretty nonsensical.
I didn't. and don't.

The reason you should have to stop playing EE is because it now offers a challenge you don't WANTto accept. * emphasis not in original

I even tried to clarify it further in a later post

... I wasn't even saying that you were unable to deal with champions etc.

The only thing that I continue to restate is that I am using "challenge" for lack of a better word and don't mean difficulty.


In the one exception, my post about struggle was a response to someone who was making a general statement that people should struggle to get the highest level of a game.
This is the big disconnect that I am running into throughout the whole champions debate across the board. I can't seem to wrap my head around that fundamental difference in mindset. I don't understand the concept of wanting all of the best things and not only not wanting to work for it but feeling adamantly entitled to it without that work.
It's fine if you don't want to have to work for things but requiring the game to shift the entire difficulty scale so that someone who readily admits they don't want any struggle in their gaming is able and has for years been able to efficiently run the highest difficulty setting is just wrong.


I never said I struggled with Champions.
On this we agree. Champions aren't a struggle. But that's not what is important about them. What's important is that they represent the first time in years that the dev team has not only acknowledged that currently the only difficulties are: Normal, Casual, Super Casual, and "If you hit auto run and afk for 20 min odds are things will have sorted themselves out" but done something, albeit not very effective, to address the issue.


And if you're going to take quotes from different posts, you should use the link-back to those posts so that people can't see for themselves what was actually going on...
You are right here it is
I'm actually glad you mentioned that because when I looked back at that thread I saw the familiar pattern of latching onto one word that you took issue with as a way to justify ignoring an opposing viewpoint.



Because you stated that I didn't want a challenge, and then you defined "challenge" as "a risk of failure or requiring you to not be on autopilot".
I'm not trying to insult you. I have no problem with there being different difficulty levels for different people according to their preferences. It's a game and everyone should be allowed to enjoy themselves. My issue is that the highest difficulty setting is catering to the middle of the bell curve, if not lower, which leaves anyone who is seeking a challenge SOL.


So you are basically saying that I don't want to play unless there is no risk of failure or unless I can run on autopilot. How is that not an insult? Nevermind that you've never played with me to accuse me of these things.
I'm not saying anything even close to that. I don't know you and as I don't plan on server swapping I likely never will. In fact I really haven't said much of anything about you.
Besides...

This is a game. I struggle in real life, I don't want to struggle in a game. ... don't take away the way I have been playing for a very long time. That is why I support the idea of an option for champions. Then the devs can make champions as hard as they want.


You are wrong, you get less Favor, lose your BB streak, less XP on top of that, and the same gear might be available but you don't get the same chances for it. I have been playing EE for a very long time and I don't see why I should have to stop playing it now because I am not enjoying Champions.

you already said it all

[Pandir]

Or just maybe it's high past time they should? It's seems to me that they've tried to appease too many {groups/demographics/market segments/whatever} and haven't really succeeded at appealing to as wide of an audience as possible. Maybe - just maybe - it's time to narrow their focus a bit and make enough happy (read as: wanting to spend more time playing and money paying in support of product) customers (who will again spread a good word of mouth, perhaps contacting some departed friends to say "hey, check it out! It's great again!) out of a particular segment(s).

Which segment(s) should that be? Lol idk but certainly Turbine has the metrics to figure it out. Personally, I of course want them to please the "make the game challenging and difficult of it's hardest setting, even if that means the new and casual players can't handle it" group, for three reasons:

1) I identify with that group.
2) I started out as New & Casual (<- "Casual" meaning I played less than 10 hours in a 7 day Week) and it was the challenge of succeeding at first Hard and the Elite that kept me interested and increasing both my time and finical investment in the game.
3) I'm a selfish human and would prefer the population were expanded with more people like me ;)

We're probably not on the same page on what we want from the game but I agree that a clear direction would be nice.
That applies to most any MMO though as the ones I played always tended to flip flop on who they cater to.(Even WoW flip flops every expansion with the only consistency usually being good raids)

Always makes ya wonder if you enjoy the game still on the next update/expansion and usually keeps at least me thinking once in a while if I should bother putting more money into the game.

[DarthCaedus]

You have a rather agressive style. It tends to annoy people on the opposite side of the issue, especially when they try remain calm about something.

A matter of style, see.

No he doesn't - but he has good points so I can see why you are changing the subject and focusing on him personally rather than his points.

[bartharok]

No he doesn't - but he has good points so I can see why you are changing the subject and focusing on him personally rather than his points.

Oh, he is very agressive in his style, and his points are ones that are good when you agree. But when you dont agree its his style that annoys, not his points.

I was just asking him to try to formulate his points less agressively, which would make conversing with him easier. Just giving a bit of advice, not getting personal.

[DarthCaedus]

In a PVP system it's easy - last man standing wins. For a PVE game it's just a matter of mastering the quests and how long it takes to do that.

I guess it boils down to what percentage of players should be completing quests on Elite difficulty. That is up to Turbine ultimately. Since their goal is to maximize revenue and by default - player enjoyment of the game and player spend - they want the things people can buy from the store to make a tangible difference in beating difficult content. They also want people to feel like they are making satisfactory progress.

So it can't be too easy or too hard. It's so hard to tell from the forums what percentage of players think the game is too easy vs. people that think it's too hard with champions. The interesting thing is there is no consensus or clear answer.

[DarthCaedus]

Oh, he is very agressive in his style, and his points are ones that are good when you agree. But when you dont agree its his style that annoys, not his points.

I was just asking him to try to formulate his points less agressively, which would make conversing with him easier. Just giving a bit of advice, not getting personal.

Considering the # of posts where people are directly insulted I would consider him/her a very courteous poster. He doesn't back down, but neither do most of the people that agree with you.

[bartharok]

Considering the # of posts where people are directly insulted I would consider him/her a very courteous poster. He doesn't back down, but neither do most of the people that agree with you.

Oh, he doesnt tend to insult. Hes just hard to talk to, since he tends to talk AT you.

And im not arguing with the people that agree with me, so their agressiveness doesnt bother me. Except when they go overboard and make "my" side look bad.