Confirmation of Nerf to Holy Sword

[SpiderPig]

Can I get a confirmation that the Holy Sword spell is being changed please?


As the lamannia Server still won't let me log in, I cannot confirm this myself.


I have posted on the lam discussion forum and have had no response, so I thought I would try my luck here.

[Mandelia]

They are removing the part that gives an enchantment bonus to the weapon. They stated this in one of the broadcasts, not sure if its published somewhere.

[StormKnight]

They are removing the part that gives an enchantment bonus to the weapon. They stated this in one of the broadcasts, not sure if its published somewhere.

That's right, losing the enchantment part but it retains the crit range?, if I remember correctly

[BDog77]

As I pointed out in your thread in the Lamma forums, in the current build on Lammania, there have been NO changes to Holy Sword, nor has anything been mentioned in the release notes about a change to the spell.

The spell still gets the +2 holy bonus (changing a +10 weapon into a +12), the +1[W], the +1 critical threat, and the +1 critical multiplier.

I do not know if they intend to change it before U24 (although I thought this was the last Lamma build), however, at this moment, NOTHING has changed from Live with the spell Holy Sword.

[axel15810]

Can I get a confirmation that the Holy Sword spell is being changed please?


As the lamannia Server still won't let me log in, I cannot confirm this myself.


I have posted on the lam discussion forum and have had no response, so I thought I would try my luck here.

From what I've read it sounds like they haven't completely made up their minds and aren't ready to announce anything. Nothing has been confirmed as far as I know.

They seem pretty certain to remove the +W damage but I think it's possible they may nerf it further (honestly it probably needs it for balance reasons).

[Sehenry03]

From what I've read it sounds like they haven't completely made up their minds and aren't ready to announce anything. Nothing has been confirmed as far as I know.

They seem pretty certain to remove the +W damage but I think it's possible they may nerf it further (honestly it probably needs it for balance reasons).

Yep...heaven forbid that Paladins that have been delegated to 2-3 lvls in multi builds for the last 6+ years actually become a high DPS class for a short time LOL.

Would be horrible to see pure Paladins running around soloing EE content like most every other class can =)

Sad thing is I play a Sorc mainly so don't really care but I hear this all the time in game after running quests. Monks and Fighters upset that Paladins are more viable then them right now in some situations.

[axel15810]

Yep...heaven forbid that Paladins that have been delegated to 2-3 lvls in multi builds for the last 6+ years actually become a high DPS class for a short time LOL.

Would be horrible to see pure Paladins running around soloing EE content like most every other class can =)

Sad thing is I play a Sorc mainly so don't really care but I hear this all the time in game after running quests. Monks and Fighters upset that Paladins are more viable then them right now in some situations.

Of all the melee classes paladins currently have the best DPS and best defense/survivability. That's not balanced. I think most players can agree.

In my opinion if barbs/fighters are going to miss out on all the survivability goodies paladins get (high saves, lay on hands, buffs, cure spells, ect.) it's only fair they should have better DPS to compensate.

[Sehenry03]

More like in almost all situations.

Of all the melee classes paladins currently have the best DPS and best survivability. That's not balanced. I think most players can agree.

I would not disagree at all. Like I said I play sorcs so won't impact me. I can see it already though that paladins are gonna drop back down because of the idea that they are OP'ed. No matter what you are gonna have 1 class that is better overall then any other class and I just find it amusing that when it happens to be Paladins everyone wants them nerfed. Monks were OP'ed for a long time. Very long time. And in some ways are still the best. We'll see after the update but I am betting Paladins will be phased out completely soon except flavor builds. The reduction in DPS and the fact that they are changing how just having a few lvls of pally won't be insane saves anymore is gonna end any need for them. Flavor builds sure but that's it.

Never understood the argument where a class now becomes better then other classes so lets gimp them in some way. Cetus had his fighter build that had more survivability and higher DPS then most other melee toons but there was no mention of changing fighters.

Let every melee class have their day in the sun for a few updates.

Either way we will see what happens =) But we all know DDO tends to go overboard on things like this. I personally think someone at Turbine hates Paladins. Barbarians are getting a nice change and bards got a huge update. Paladins get a nice update then immediately reduced .

[BDog77]

Paladins get a nice update then immediately reduced .

Yeah, we've noticed this. No talk about nerfing swashbuckler now is there?

[Sehenry03]

Yeah, we've noticed this. No talk about nerfing swashbuckler now is there?

Hell no. Look...Paladins are not a popular class. They are a popular splash and that's it and even that is gonna end soon.. The only reason you see more of them now is because they are powerful. After this update people will TR out of the pally class to most likely something involving monk LOL.

Monks will always be at the top of the list as well as Swashbuckler now because people love the idea of them and DDO won't touch that. Barbarians need to watch out because if they get to much of an upgrade then people will complain and they get nerfed back down a peg. Players want certain classes to be powerful so Monks and Swashbucklers amongst a few select others will always be a top notch DPS/Survivability type class. Paladins are not in that mold so they will always be held to mediocre and if they do get to powerful a quick change and they are back down.

I have no problems nerfing a class of they are OP'ed and Paladins could be I haven't really played them much. My point is anytime you have a class that is included in a VAST majority of builds it needs to be looked at. Monk is seen in more builds then every other class combined to me. This is my opinion. Everyone I play with has Monk splashed. Really? Again just my opinion but to me Monks need looked at more then Paladins.

[Blackheartox]

Several things that should be done in ddo:

1. Nerf holy sword, make it multiselector since its stupid that 1 free spells is more useful then 42 points spent into other trees of other classes

2. Fix druid styles, its really stupid to play a swf 2 weap fight druid since it really is op

3. Fix tree form, aka give it less dps, since at its current state it is incredibly broken once you figure how to get enough spirit

4. Dont make barbs overpowered

5. Fix sneak and enemy ai detection so that assasins can do what they are suposed to do, assasinate, never understood why the quests shouldnt be sneak completable

6. Nerf swasc builds, bards should never be on top dps, they should do something of everything but not be top in most

I can add many many more but those are highest priority on my list.

Also nerf dc casting /yes im playing a sorc and i want a nerf for myself since it is utterly stupidly strong

[Sehenry03]

Several things that should be done in ddo:

1. Nerf holy sword, make it multiselector since its stupid that 1 free spells is more useful then 42 points spent into other trees of other classes

2. Fix druid styles, its really stupid to play a swf 2 weap fight druid since it really is op

3. Fix tree form, aka give it less dps, since at its current state it is incredibly broken once you figure how to get enough spirit

4. Dont make barbs overpowered

5. Fix sneak and enemy ai detection so that assasins can do what they are suposed to do, assasinate, never understood why the quests shouldnt be sneak completable

6. Nerf swasc builds, bards should never be on top dps, they should do something of everything but not be top in most

I can add many many more but those are highest priority on my list.

Also nerf dc casting /yes im playing a sorc and i want a nerf for myself since it is utterly stupidly strong

I would agree with everything on your list. The problem is out of the 6 points you mentioned how many are gonna be addressed anytime soon? The first one and that's it. Paladins are gonna take a DPS hit when they nerf Holy Sword and everything else will continue. That's my point. Why nerf ONE class when so many others need addressed also? **** let Paladins enjoy life a little bit before hitting them with the nerf bat so quick. Maybe Holy Sword is OP'ed but no one will convince me it is more OP'ed then the druid/monk combos in animal form yet that has persisted for ages.

[Blackheartox]

I would agree with everything on your list. The problem is out of the 6 points you mentioned how many are gonna be addressed anytime soon? The first one and that's it. Paladins are gonna take a DPS hit when they nerf Holy Sword and everything else will continue. That's my point. Why nerf ONE class when so many others need addressed also? **** let Paladins enjoy life a little bit before hitting them with the nerf bat so quick. Maybe Holy Sword is OP'ed but no one will convince me it is more OP'ed then the druid/monk combos in animal form yet that has persisted for ages.

When i made the 10 druid 6 ranger 4 fight split, once i reached 20 i said to my buddy, this is op, i so hope they will fix it.

People would use dev assault fully maxed at 28 and do "speed runs", i steped into it after a etr on 20, yes 20 so only old epic gear, with a epic envm blade and i beat the fastest speed record as a druid giberish build on lv 20 vs a fully maxed lv 28 what it was dont remember.
Now everyone can tell me that isnt op, but tbh it is.
I shared the build with other people once i trd out of it
Tree, bards and other stuff can also approach same ammount of stupid op-nes.

And i can say that currently in my final sorc life im doing some stupidtly crazy things, i wont post on achivments since any post i see there consists of people using duped mats and whatever.
Like that for example melle ee solo lob/ma, why didnt he at least try to hide the tornado pots on his bar?
But for example, no cheats solo shroud with bb, solo reavers with bb, solo adq2 with bravery, solo chrono tspine with bravery, ee chrono, adq2, /figuring how to do von as sorc pillars are a issue, soon il do mark solo, ee fot have some plans, etc etc.
And this is on a totally fair class where only tool i have are my personal skills and many many many sp pots i gathered over the years heh.
Point is, if fleshie sorc is so broken, what does that mean for palies/druids/swasch builds then?

Game imo needs to take one of 2 directions:
1. Make a new super epic true elite difficutly
2. Nerf things to oblivion

I prefer nm 2 since it will give us more forum drama, and forum drama is always good for killing time ;)

[Sehenry03]

Yep lots of classes are broken. Which is why I find it so amusing that people want Paladins to be nerfed already. I play a Sorc and I know how nasty they are. I don't care how OP a Paladin is...with my Sorc I know I can clear most dungeons faster then a Paladin can. Sure the Paladin would be safer but doesn't really matter. Who cares if his spell is OP when SO many other classes have OP broken abilities. Let Paladins have some fun while you focus on fixing those other classes first.

[Qezuzu]

Several things that should be done in ddo:

1. Nerf holy sword, make it multiselector since its stupid that 1 free spells is more useful then 42 points spent into other trees of other classes

2. Fix druid styles, its really stupid to play a swf 2 weap fight druid since it really is op

3. Fix tree form, aka give it less dps, since at its current state it is incredibly broken once you figure how to get enough spirit

4. Dont make barbs overpowered

5. Fix sneak and enemy ai detection so that assasins can do what they are suposed to do, assasinate, never understood why the quests shouldnt be sneak completable

6. Nerf swasc builds, bards should never be on top dps, they should do something of everything but not be top in most

I can add many many more but those are highest priority on my list.

Also nerf dc casting /yes im playing a sorc and i want a nerf for myself since it is utterly stupidly strong

5. is fixed as far as I can tell, I have zero trouble sneaking through quests, I just finished an EE Garl's Tomb run with only required kills+2 Shadow Manipulation kills.

But instead if nerfing everything, we should improve the other classes and then increase the difficulty of quests on H/E (which is already being done on lamma.) No one likes it when things get nerfed, especially for classes like Paladin and Bard which have never really had a time to shine. Honestly the only thing that should ever be considered for a nerf is the extreme outlier builds that make jokes out of all content, and that's pretty much just Monkchers.

Also, two of my specific gripes:
-Shadowdancer epic moment is pure garbage. It's literally +2d6 damage and the "increased range of melee" is little more than a parlor trick in practice. Oh and it requires you get the kill on TWENTY mobs, and it lasts 30 seconds: compare this to Blitz, which you can just activate at will, lasts as long as you can keep fighting, and provides a massively better benefit. The implosion also hasn't functioned very well in forever. Shadow Manipulation is a significantly better ability than either of them.
-Magister is SO BORING. It has like two abilities worth using, everything else is just passive increases to DC.

[katz]

...i wont post on achivments since any post i see there consists of people using duped mats and whatever...

excuse you,i'm quite offended by that...i did my solo melee bardic shroud (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/434174-the-next-time-someone-tells-you-bards-suck-point-them-here?p=5220025&viewfull=1#post5220025) 100% legit. and i did it almost a year ago.. BEFORE swashbuckler came out

[Sehenry03]

5. is fixed as far as I can tell, I have zero trouble sneaking through quests, I just finished an EE Garl's Tomb run with only required kills+2 Shadow Manipulation kills.

But instead if nerfing everything, we should improve the other classes and then increase the difficulty of quests on H/E (which is already being done on lamma.) No one likes it when things get nerfed, especially for classes like Paladin and Bard which have never really had a time to shine. Honestly the only thing that should ever be considered for a nerf is the extreme outlier builds that make jokes out of all content, and that's pretty much just Monkchers.

Also, two of my specific gripes:
-Shadowdancer epic moment is pure garbage. It's literally +2d6 damage and the "increased range of melee" is little more than a parlor trick in practice. Oh and it requires you get the kill on TWENTY mobs, and it lasts 30 seconds: compare this to Blitz, which you can just activate at will, lasts as long as you can keep fighting, and provides a massively better benefit. The implosion also hasn't functioned very well in forever. Shadow Manipulation is a significantly better ability than either of them.
-Magister is SO BORING. It has like two abilities worth using, everything else is just passive increases to DC.

This is how it SHOULD happen. Problem is...and Paladin is a perfect example...one class gets a buff and is now better then other melee classes so people so the game isn't balanced. LOL sorry but the game hasn't been balanced since people figured out how to get druid/monk in combo with wolfform. Since people don't want Paladins to be very powerful they complain until the favorite classes are again more powerful.

[JOTMON]

Several things that should be done in ddo:

1. Nerf holy sword, make it multiselector since its stupid that 1 free spells is more useful then 42 points spent into other trees of other classes

2. Fix druid styles, its really stupid to play a swf 2 weap fight druid since it really is op

3. Fix tree form, aka give it less dps, since at its current state it is incredibly broken once you figure how to get enough spirit

4. Dont make barbs overpowered

5. Fix sneak and enemy ai detection so that assasins can do what they are suposed to do, assasinate, never understood why the quests shouldnt be sneak completable

6. Nerf swasc builds, bards should never be on top dps, they should do something of everything but not be top in most

I can add many many more but those are highest priority on my list.

Also nerf dc casting /yes im playing a sorc and i want a nerf for myself since it is utterly stupidly strong


1. Holy Sword is a level 4 Paladin spell which means you have to have a minimum of 14 levels of paladin.. so how is this a free spell. pretty expensive considering 14 levels of fighter gets you 8 bonus feats.
2. how is this stupid? are you saying druids shouldn't be able to wield two weapons? any other class can wield two weapons.. even casters get benefit from dual wielding caster sticks.
3 yeah because everyone is running around in tree form... its as popular as platemail wearing monks.
4. Barbs need to be Op, they suck atm. Barbarians should be the top of the DPS tree as far as pure damage output and no defense uis concerned against most generic mobs.
Paladins for evil/undead, rogues on sneak attacks, Rangers on favoured enemies.. blah blah.....
5. yes this is broken... Dev's screwed this up a while back and still haven't acknowledged it isn't working properly, or if they will ever fix it.
Can't sneak up on an inactive mob and assassinate them, have to get them aggro'd on something else ,like a noise trap or hjireling.. scratch hireling.. those useless things runaround aggroing everything then die leaving mobs searching for you.
Assasinate seems to be like hitting a mob with a gong, sneak kill one and the room all of a sudden is instantly in aggro mode and coming your way.
6. never understood why they let this happen. especially after they screwed monks and their quivering palm which actually requires investment to achieve near no fail DC and building ki.

Caster DC's I don't think are the issue , short cooldowns on Epic Destiny burst attacks and huge stacking low cost damage from shirardi could use some tweaking.

[MacRighteous]

I was playing Paladins when they were gymped, I play them now and I'll be playing them after they're nerfed.

The bit of extra DPS we are getting out of Holy Sword is nice and I don't want to give it up, but really for me, it isn't about which class has the highest DPS - it's about being a Paladin. To me that means being a Divine Healing, Heavy Armored Sword & Board force to be reckoned with. Paladins don't need the highest DPS, but their DPS needed to be better than it was and they should never be put back in the position where they have to splash with classes that don't feel right and forced to wear pajamas to remain viable again.

So having said that, I wouldn't be too butt-hurt if they toned down Holy Sword a bit - but honestly, there is bigger fish to fry. Let them do their thing to a few more classes before they start un-doing their overhauls.

[depositbox]

2. how is this stupid? are you saying druids shouldn't be able to wield two weapons? any other class can wield two weapons.. even casters get benefit from dual wielding caster sticks.


wolves. he means wolves. 2wf and swf working in forms is not wai. And they can be stacked. No other build can use these this way.



3 yeah because everyone is running around in tree form... its as popular as platemail wearing monks.


Popularity has nothing to do with how much dps a ww tree deals. AoE 25k crits. regular hits 1k+



6. never understood why they let this happen. especially after they screwed monks and their quivering palm which actually requires investment to achieve near no fail DC and building ki.

building ki is non-issue. it builds just by being in combat. perform is also an investment just not as much as an investment monks needed for wisdom and 2 gear slots for sunder and exceptional. either way, coup de grace isnt even needed to deal sick dps with swashbucklrers. add in all the free cc they get like gaurdbreaking and elegant footwork too.

[JOTMON]

wolves. he means wolves. 2wf and swf working in forms is not wai. And they can be stacked. No other build can use these this way.


ah, misunderstood that one,



Popularity has nothing to do with how much dps a ww tree deals. AoE 25k crits. regular hits 1k+



so does a Shirardi caster, so does energy burst, light build druid splash build, I am sure there are other builds out there that do great damage, even that old Cetus build, monchers,






building ki is non-issue. it builds just by being in combat. perform is also an investment just not as much as an investment monks needed for wisdom and 2 gear slots for sunder and exceptional. either way, coup de grace isnt even needed to deal sick dps with swashbucklrers. add in all the free cc they get like gaurdbreaking and elegant footwork too.

wasn't arguing this point, swf and coup de grace on a bard is OP. was just surprised they put this much power capability into bards after the nurfing of the monk quivering palm into worthlessness.

[redoubt]

Several things that should be done in ddo:

1. Nerf holy sword, make it multiselector since its stupid that 1 free spells is more useful then 42 points spent into other trees of other classes

2. Fix druid styles, its really stupid to play a swf 2 weap fight druid since it really is op

3. Fix tree form, aka give it less dps, since at its current state it is incredibly broken once you figure how to get enough spirit

4. Dont make barbs overpowered

5. Fix sneak and enemy ai detection so that assasins can do what they are suposed to do, assasinate, never understood why the quests shouldnt be sneak completable

6. Nerf swasc builds, bards should never be on top dps, they should do something of everything but not be top in most

I can add many many more but those are highest priority on my list.

Also nerf dc casting /yes im playing a sorc and i want a nerf for myself since it is utterly stupidly strong

1. Holy sword is level four Paladin spell. This requires 14 levels of paladin. Any build with Holy Sword is a Paladin and not something else with a Paladin splash. Next, the spell Zeal helps a ton with the effectiveness of Holy Sword, so we are really talking 15 levels of paladin, thus preventing getting 6 in something else (i.e. not getting the core enhancement at 6 from another class.)

Is the fighter crit enhancement kinda lame? Yes. I think fighter should get a better way to boost crit.

2. Devs have already stated that is broken and will be fixed. They've tried already but it caused problems with actual rangers... so we are still waiting on this one.

5. Yes, assassinate and the sneak game need some work.

By DC casting, you mean nerf enchanters? Cuz, you know, they are so uber? Or maybe the conjuration spec'd people who really like web? NO.

The only DC casting that MIGHT be out of wack is necro, but only for completionists with epic litany and who are willing to pot up all the time. I'm playing an enchantment spec'd wiz (with necro as secondary) and it is very underwhelming after being a fire savant...


I would agree with everything on your list. The problem is out of the 6 points you mentioned how many are gonna be addressed anytime soon? The first one and that's it. Paladins are gonna take a DPS hit when they nerf Holy Sword and everything else will continue. That's my point. Why nerf ONE class when so many others need addressed also? **** let Paladins enjoy life a little bit before hitting them with the nerf bat so quick. Maybe Holy Sword is OP'ed but no one will convince me it is more OP'ed then the druid/monk combos in animal form yet that has persisted for ages.

I pug a LOT. Yes I see more Paladins in my groups than I used to. But not more than I see druids or sorcs... I've been around long enough to remember seeing phases of the game where a class was actually dominant enough that a group would be 4-6 of just that class; and it happened just because that was what people were playing. (Think about casters and the first orchard before the rampant fire immunity was put in place, and then to Ghosts of perdition where groups were 5 casters and one useless person they would drag through, then trade.) Paladins are not at that point. We can leave them be for a bit.


Yep lots of classes are broken. Which is why I find it so amusing that people want Paladins to be nerfed already. I play a Sorc and I know how nasty they are. I don't care how OP a Paladin is...with my Sorc I know I can clear most dungeons faster then a Paladin can. Sure the Paladin would be safer but doesn't really matter. Who cares if his spell is OP when SO many other classes have OP broken abilities. Let Paladins have some fun while you focus on fixing those other classes first.

Yes.

[Ancient]

3 yeah because everyone is running around in tree form... its as popular as platemail wearing monks.

As a matter of fact, the latest, unposted version of my Nova Shiradi build... is a platemail wearing monk :)

Maybe I should add treeform?

[Rykka]

Several things that should be done in ddo:

1. Nerf holy sword, make it multiselector since its stupid that 1 free spells is more useful then 42 points spent into other trees of other classes

2. Fix druid styles, its really stupid to play a swf 2 weap fight druid since it really is op

3. Fix tree form, aka give it less dps, since at its current state it is incredibly broken once you figure how to get enough spirit

4. Dont make barbs overpowered

5. Fix sneak and enemy ai detection so that assasins can do what they are suposed to do, assasinate, never understood why the quests shouldnt be sneak completable

6. Nerf swasc builds, bards should never be on top dps, they should do something of everything but not be top in most

I can add many many more but those are highest priority on my list.

Also nerf dc casting /yes im playing a sorc and i want a nerf for myself since it is utterly stupidly strong

I sign this petition.

[Oxarhamar]

Is the fighter crit enhancement kinda lame? Yes. I think fighter should get a better way to boost crit.



I think some Melee power in each of the outdated Feats required to qualify for Kensei could do the trick?

[redoubt]

I think some Melee power in each of the outdated Feats required to qualify for Kensei could do the trick?

That is an interesting idea.

That would make fighters a more steady style dps. This would be an easy way to add it in.

3x weapon focus
2x weapon spec

That's 5 feats you could put melee power on. This would be something that a feat starved class could not afford to do, but a fighter can do easily.

The more I think on this, the more I like the concept.

[redoubt]

I think some Melee power in each of the outdated Feats required to qualify for Kensei could do the trick?


That is an interesting idea.

That would make fighters a more steady style dps. This would be an easy way to add it in.

3x weapon focus
2x weapon spec

That's 5 feats you could put melee power on. This would be something that a feat starved class could not afford to do, but a fighter can do easily.

The more I think on this, the more I like the concept.

Heck, put ranged power in there as well, so if they take focus ranged, its ranged power instead.

This could make some fighter archers as well with a good bump to ranged power... (giving us options outside of AA, moncher, and arti for range.)

Many of the classes have an archetype associated with them, but fighter is supposed to be able to excel and whatever type of combat they focus on. The strength of the fighter class is having so many bonus feats. Putting extra dps umpf into the feats that most builds can't afford to take would be a good way to put some good power back into fighter and have it maintain what is unique to it, without subtracting from the other classes.

+W are also options for some of these feats.

Again, I like it more, the more I think about it.

[Tilomere]

There are roughly three to five times as many characters online with four or more fighter or paladin levels than any other class.

[Rykka]

There are roughly three to five times as many characters online with four or more fighter or paladin levels than any other class.

That, to me, is more indicative of what people want to play. Without build guidance from the forums. There have been a ton of people trying to play heavy armor melee in my brief stint in this game. Lucky for them, HA stopped sucking.

[IronClan]

As a matter of fact, the latest, unposted version of my Nova Shiradi build... is a platemail wearing monk :)

Maybe I should add treeform?

Still 2 monk? That's not really what anyone would call a monk though I take it you're mostly joking around. :) I notice the original build lists movement speed as a perk which is not something you get with 2 monk levels need 3. Now you're wearing plate? Not getting anything from monk at all with that on. IMO there are a lot of better splashes to look at in that case. Cleric in particular.

[legendkilleroll]

Ive seen about 6 different people, all with same class split using tree in last week

The usual though where people just use someone else's build because its either not Wai or they easily soloed some quest, not saying there is anything wrong with that, just how it is

[EllisDee37]

1. Nerf holy sword, make it multiselector since its stupid that 1 free spells is more useful then 42 points spent into other trees of other classesIt's not "free." It requires 14 class levels, which is a hell of a lot more expensive than 42 AP in a tree.

[Blackheartox]

It's not "free." It requires 14 class levels, which is a hell of a lot more expensive than 42 AP in a tree.

If you tell me those 14 class levels that are hella expensive are not broken currently then ok il agree.
Harmor being as it is, palies geting proficiency for free, getting stance upgrades, some ap and god mode.

That "sacrifice" would be considerd bad if holy sword was added to rogue for example and you needed 14 rogue class levels.
But the "expensive part" on a class that has superb selfheals, best saves progression in ddo, best defense and with hsword best nonexploitbroken offense cannot be considerd "expensive" at all.

Palie is op, needs toning down, case closed.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

1. Holy Sword is a level 4 Paladin spell which means you have to have a minimum of 14 levels of paladin.. so how is this a free spell. pretty expensive considering 14 levels of fighter gets you 8 bonus feats.

are you trying to tell me that the ****** +1 dmg i can get from some of those feats is equivalent dps to holy sword? because it looks like thats what youre trying to tell me. maybe youre joking. yes that must be it. right?

[the_one_dwarfforged]

It's not "free." It requires 14 class levels, which is a hell of a lot more expensive than 42 AP in a tree.

if you want to play a pure or mostly fighter, 14 levels of fighter is free.

if you want to play a pure or mostly paladin, 14 levels of paladin is free.

if you want what the forums consider to be the best melee dps build, 14 paladin is free.

if you want to pick good spells out of the paladin spell list instead of bad spells, holy sword is free.

if you want to play a pure paladin and pick good spells out of the spell list and spend 42 points in an enhancement tree on things other than holy sword and still have holy sword...

holy sword is free.

so unless you want to play a build that is 13 levels or less paladin and more than 2 levels of paladin (which i definitely dont doubt for even a second, honest), its free and there should be no discussion of it as such.

unless you want to play a pure barb and also have holy sword. in which case it is not free but you have spoiled unrealistic expectations.

[EllisDee37]

if you want to play a pure or mostly fighter, 14 levels of fighter is free.

if you want to play a pure or mostly paladin, 14 levels of paladin is free.

if you want what the forums consider to be the best melee dps build, 14 paladin is free.

if you want to pick good spells out of the paladin spell list instead of bad spells, holy sword is free.

if you want to play a pure paladin and pick good spells out of the spell list and spend 42 points in an enhancement tree on things other than holy sword and still have holy sword...

holy sword is free.

so unless you want to play a build that is 13 levels or less paladin and more than 2 levels of paladin (which i definitely dont doubt for even a second, honest), its free and there should be no discussion of it as such.

unless you want to play a pure barb and also have holy sword. in which case it is not free but you have spoiled unrealistic expectations.By that logic, before U23 went live, the following were ALL free:

evasion
keen edge
divine grace

I find that logic laughable.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

By that logic, before U23 went live, the following were ALL free:

evasion
keen edge
divine grace

I find that logic laughable.

they are free. you will play what you are going to play. levels do not equal cost.

[Soleran100]

So many lulz in this thread, nerf holy sword.............who cares.

But then stop whining when you can make a complete toon by multiclassing with low hanging enhancements to make very awesome fighters.

ZOMG holy swordZ are dripping with op sauce because paladins are...........

Now fighters have forever been able to split with monks for super powerful synergy and improve their crits while improving their prr/mrr with monk stances and have HUGE dodge with miss chances due to concealment/incorp plus bumps to stats for more hp...........lets not forget those fighters putting in 2 paladin also.

Now because the flavor favors harmor though paladins need to be tweeked because they benefit from it for free and get holy sword if they commit 14 lvls to paladin.

[Blackheartox]

So many lulz in this thread, nerf holy sword.............who cares.

But then stop whining when you can make a complete toon by multiclassing with low hanging enhancements to make very awesome fighters.

ZOMG holy swordZ are dripping with op sauce because paladins are...........

Now fighters have forever been able to split with monks for super powerful synergy and improve their crits while improving their prr/mrr with monk stances and have HUGE dodge with miss chances due to concealment/incorp plus bumps to stats for more hp...........lets not forget those fighters putting in 2 paladin also.

Now because the flavor favors harmor though paladins need to be tweeked because they benefit from it for free and get holy sword if they commit 14 lvls to paladin.

Builds and powers come and go.
Barbs were op back in the day dps wise, ac tanks were unhitable, ranger /exploiter/ was one of the best builds in ddo
I could continue with this way of thinking and currently it is the same for monks.
Monk fighter hybrids or rogue monk hybrids "were" powerful.
Dodge, conceal is minor damage avoidance compared to what a simple hamor and shadowscale plate have to offer.
Also keep in mind, you can still pick 15 palie levels and 3 rogue 2 monk and play with longswords wraps shortswords staffs.
Or do a 14 palie 6 monk monkcher.
Palie is currently the super flavor, thing is, its ok if something is fotm, i never cared much about that.
But what it is now is not fotm, but efficiency of month.
Other builds just cannot perform as well melle wise beside nonexploits like palie can.
Fix exploits, nerf palie and win win.

If ddo gets even more powercreep it will be absurd.
Even now the game is hillarious and not fun at all compared to old days where skill matterd and not a simple go buy iconic roll bf palie and be op

[Soleran100]

But what it is now is not fotm, but efficiency of month.
Other builds just cannot perform as well melle wise if nonexploits like palie can.
Fix exploits, nerf palie and win win.


So then YOUR problem is your perceived efficiency of said class and abilities...............


Well then, there we go /thread

More lulz, bards are far more efficient and many caster builds as well but whatever.

Your better off fixing problems like the druid forms then tweeking paladins at this point until more classes are overhauled.

Also in old days skill was running epics with a tr/dc palmaster..........melees couldn't compete at all with most casters in solo end game content when the cap was 20.

PS if you dont like power creep make a new toon dont use tomes, guild buffs, destinies and then run content to 28 and never tr because tring just adds to power creep, but you could make a 32 point toon instead of 28 if thats not to much creep.

[LordKalkin]

If you tell me those 14 class levels that are hella expensive are not broken currently then ok il agree.
Harmor being as it is, palies geting proficiency for free, getting stance upgrades, some ap and god mode.

That "sacrifice" would be considerd bad if holy sword was added to rogue for example and you needed 14 rogue class levels.
But the "expensive part" on a class that has superb selfheals, best saves progression in ddo, best defense and with hsword best nonexploitbroken offense cannot be considerd "expensive" at all.

Palie is op, needs toning down, case closed.

Patently wrong and false.

No reason to touch pally until other class passes are done. You are telling Da Vinci after he has traced an outline he needs to change the Mona Lisa.

Devs please ignore nerf whiners until 2 updates after other class changes are done. Address real issues not the crying of those whose OP build isnt the most uber anymore. There is a whole group of players with severe dismay that they cant get holy sword with a pally splash. And if they cant have it with their monk 6 and whatever 9 build they dont want others to have it.

Fix things not WAI, update gimped classes then look at the big picture again.

Signed
The rest of the forums sick of kneejerk reactions.

[Blackheartox]

So then YOUR problem is your perceived efficiency of said class and abilities...............


Well then, there we go /thread

More lulz, bards are far more efficient and many caster builds as well but whatever.

Your better off fixing problems like the druid forms then tweeking paladins at this point until more classes are overhauled.

Also in old days skill was running epics with a tr/dc palmaster..........melees couldn't compete at all with most casters in solo end game content when the cap was 20.

PS if you dont like power creep make a new toon dont use tomes, guild buffs, destinies and then run content to 28 and never tr because tring just adds to power creep, but you could make a 32 point toon instead of 28 if thats not to much creep.

Melles couldnt complete?

Then i was a exception and i know many more "melle players" that could solo complete old epic content.

And i put a nice list what i want fixed worked on.
Wont repeat myself again.
Issue is not tr, issue is power gear and overpowering abilities you get from a chose destiny or class aka in current time palie.
Tomes wont give as much benefit as a easy to get 11 con 11 dodge 11 resist belt or a deadly 11 ff 4 saves etc etc bracers or a 11 str helm that easily drops as a stupid chain reward.
Mix it with holy sword dcrusader and you got easy button full ****** proof ee rdy even first lifer

[Buffyanne]

How about stop making class changes then one update later nerfing those changes. Can you at least let things play out for a year before redoing everything you did? This is a ridiculous way to run a game.

[LordKalkin]

are you trying to tell me that the ****** +1 dmg i can get from some of those feats is equivalent dps to holy sword? because it looks like thats what youre trying to tell me. maybe youre joking. yes that must be it. right?

I think the bigger joke is your post. Its intentionally inaccurate.

Take 14 levels of Fighter and compare the extra feats over the 14 levels of Pally.
Now that would be an honest and accurate comparison.
But when that doesnt prove your point you had better avoid it.

Better yet, be honest and compare Holy Sword to what a Kensai Keen Edge fighter has, but add in all the damage and to hit bonuses from the required feats but keep a separate tally of the other DPS buffs from the enhancements you take working the tree. Then take 6 monk and run around centered swinging that huge pece of steel and tell me how OP that pally is and how pathetic your DPS is in comparison. Not buying any bit of it and I hope the devs aren't either.

[Soleran100]

Melles couldnt complete?

Then i was a exception and i know many more "melle players" that could solo complete old epic content.

r

I said that melee couldnt compete with not that they couldnt complete

Also, your complaint is with powercreep but that comes from everything I said which you attempted to distract from by pushing your own agenda rather talk to the specific point of powercreep.

Powercreep leads to exactly what you are complaining about with paladins and "OP" gear. Tomes and TR's and going from 28 point builds to 36 point builds especially casters makes a HUGE difference.

That said until they finish tweeking classes then nerfing an ability before adjustments are made is foolish.

This game has become significantly easier with powercreep and tr'ing and tomes and gear and destinies especially as compared to the cap at 20 with old epics.

[Vargouille]

Holy Sword planned changes for Update 24: We are currently planning to remove the +(W) and reduce the +2 enhancement bonus to +1.

We are intentionally timing this after we (devs and players) have had some time to see the effects of changes, but not so long that it's ingrained into long-beloved player builds -- that's why we've aimed at one update later. This timing is specifically based off of player feedback from when we asked about Character Balance and the popular and considered opinion how soon after balance changes should occur.

[EllisDee37]

Holy Sword planned changes for Update 24: We are currently planning to remove the +(W) and reduce the +2 enhancement bonus to +1.

We are intentionally timing this after we (devs and players) have had some time to see the effects of changes, but not so long that it's ingrained into long-beloved player builds -- that's why we've aimed at one update later. This timing is specifically based off of player feedback from when we asked about Character Balance and the popular and considered opinion how soon after balance changes should occur.Fair enough on both counts. (The nerf and the timing.)

[bsquishwizzy]

Nerfing Holy Sword (or Weapon = - whatever it is called now) is undoubtedly one of the dumbest ideas around. Leave it alone.

It requires 14 levels of Paladin to get. It is not “free.” It also gives you a very good reason to be a pure paladin.

It is, lore-wise, something that sorta goes back to original D&D. The Paladin’s weapon, mount, and alignment were the KEY things of the class. This harkens back to this concept.

It is still VERY relevant in epic content. I can get that +5 sword out of the Subterane (Divine Vengeance I think?) and at lvl 22 it still gives me a +7 weapon with relevant SR, DR-breaking, and so on.

Holy Sword was utterly frickin’ useless before the change. Even on my first pally life, I was past using it at around lvl 18 when I had a GS weapon. Now, I have a reason to put it in my spell lineup.

I think what has people undies in a bunch is that there is virtually no reason to splash Paladin now, when you can be king DPS by remaining pure. This gets a lot of multi-class techno-nerds all out-of-joint because they are not being catered to at every turn. And that’s the prime motivation behind the call here for a nerf.

Going pure or multi-class should be a decision that one needs to weigh. It should not be a no-brainer one way or another.

[jalont]

So many lulz in this thread, nerf holy sword.............who cares.

But then stop whining when you can make a complete toon by multiclassing with low hanging enhancements to make very awesome fighters.

ZOMG holy swordZ are dripping with op sauce because paladins are...........

Now fighters have forever been able to split with monks for super powerful synergy and improve their crits while improving their prr/mrr with monk stances and have HUGE dodge with miss chances due to concealment/incorp plus bumps to stats for more hp...........lets not forget those fighters putting in 2 paladin also.

Now because the flavor favors harmor though paladins need to be tweeked because they benefit from it for free and get holy sword if they commit 14 lvls to paladin.

LOL.

Okay, so if we don't stop the power creep by... stopping the power creep, then how do you suppose we stop the power creep?

[Monkey-Boy]

Holy Sword planned changes for Update 24: We are currently planning to remove the +(W) and reduce the +2 enhancement bonus to +1.

We are intentionally timing this after we (devs and players) have had some time to see the effects of changes, but not so long that it's ingrained into long-beloved player builds -- that's why we've aimed at one update later. This timing is specifically based off of player feedback from when we asked about Character Balance and the popular and considered opinion how soon after balance changes should occur.

Good. Now nerf it more and people might actually play fighters again.

[jalont]

Nerfing Holy Sword (or Weapon = - whatever it is called now) is undoubtedly one of the dumbest ideas around. Leave it alone.

It requires 14 levels of Paladin to get. It is not “free.” It also gives you a very good reason to be a pure paladin.

It is, lore-wise, something that sorta goes back to original D&D. The Paladin’s weapon, mount, and alignment were the KEY things of the class. This harkens back to this concept.

It is still VERY relevant in epic content. I can get that +5 sword out of the Subterane (Divine Vengeance I think?) and at lvl 22 it still gives me a +7 weapon with relevant SR, DR-breaking, and so on.

Holy Sword was utterly frickin’ useless before the change. Even on my first pally life, I was past using it at around lvl 18 when I had a GS weapon. Now, I have a reason to put it in my spell lineup.

I think what has people undies in a bunch is that there is virtually no reason to splash Paladin now, when you can be king DPS by remaining pure. This gets a lot of multi-class techno-nerds all out-of-joint because they are not being catered to at every turn. And that’s the prime motivation behind the call here for a nerf.

Going pure or multi-class should be a decision that one needs to weigh. It should not be a no-brainer one way or another.

In what world is 14 levels of Pally any sort of cost? Do people on the forums even play the game? 14 levels of pally gives you the ability to take the top tier of most other trees in the game. It allows to splash multiple classes to gain more feats. It allows the ability to splash for evasion (not that you actually should anymore, evasion is dead). It allows you to splash to get helpful spells like blur and displacement. What exactly is the cost of 14 pally levels? It is infinitely better than a centered kensai because you don't need to be centered to get it! The ability to drop cloth is a huge bonus!

[peng]

Holy Sword planned changes for Update 24: We are currently planning to remove the +(W) and reduce the +2 enhancement bonus to +1.

We are intentionally timing this after we (devs and players) have had some time to see the effects of changes, but not so long that it's ingrained into long-beloved player builds -- that's why we've aimed at one update later. This timing is specifically based off of player feedback from when we asked about Character Balance and the popular and considered opinion how soon after balance changes should occur.

Any word on when unarmed will be fixed for holy sword and kotc cleaves? Right now holy sword gives the +2 enhancement and +[w] to unarmed, but not the crit bonuses, so this change will be a really big nerf to unarmed paladins.

Kotc cleaves unarmed have an off-hand chance (regular twf does not), but they're dealing much lower damage than they should.

I've been wanting to make an unarmed paladin for a while, but these bugs are kind of a deterrent.

[Severlin]

Holy Sword will keep its critical changes. It will drop the enhancement bonus down to +1 and it will lose the +1[W]. Paladin DPS is slightly overperforming where we want it to be. (Honestly the spell is still great; the +1[W] was gratuitous.)


How about stop making class changes then one update later nerfing those changes. Can you at least let things play out for a year before redoing everything you did? This is a ridiculous way to run a game.

Player feedback has overwhelmingly indicated that adjustments to changes should happen sooner rather than later when it needs to be done. Players will probably be seeing a lot of tuning as we balance the classes.

Sev~

[Seikojin]

Holy Sword will keep its critical changes. It will drop the enhancement bonus down to +1 and it will lose the +1[W]. Paladin DPS is slightly overperforming where we want it to be. (Honestly the spell is still great; the +1[W] was gratuitous.)



Player feedback has overwhelmingly indicated that adjustments to changes should happen sooner rather than later when it needs to be done. Players will probably be seeing a lot of tuning as we balance the classes.

Sev~

I agree with this wholeheartedly. My pally still rocks even if it is -1[w] than before.

[SinnJinn2]

Holy Sword planned changes for Update 24: We are currently planning to remove the +(W) and reduce the +2 enhancement bonus to +1.We are intentionally timing this after we (devs and players) have had some time to see the effects of changes, but not so long that it's ingrained into long-beloved player builds -- that's why we've aimed at one update later. This timing is specifically based off of player feedback from when we asked about Character Balance and the popular and considered opinion how soon after balance changes should occur.making this change would be a mistake, for the first time ever I am enjoying playing a pally. it's nice to actually get in on the kill count with more than a half a dozen kills by the end of the quest. anything that reduces the effectiveness of paladins will reduce that enjoyment. but it seems turbine is going to listen to the little whiner babies instead of those of us who play more than FOTM builds.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

How about stop making class changes then one update later nerfing those changes. Can you at least let things play out for a year before redoing everything you did? This is a ridiculous way to run a game.

Actually, waiting a year to make minor changes for balance seems like a much more ridiculous way to run game. If they waited a year, the outcry would be "Why did you wait a year? Give me my money back, or give us +20LR's" And this is definitely a minor change, not a complete rework.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Of all the nerfs that could have been made, frankly i'd rather it's just a small amount of enhancement bonus & the +1W, rather than them touching those ohso shiny crit modifiers, so while it's a shame i won't get quite such nice numbers, i can deal with it.

[arkonas]

making this change would be a mistake, for the first time ever I am enjoying playing a pally. it's nice to actually get in on the kill count with more than a half a dozen kills by the end of the quest. anything that reduces the effectiveness of paladins will reduce that enjoyment. but it seems turbine is going to listen to the little whiner babies instead of those of us who play more than FOTM builds.

do you seriously think this is going to break your paladin? wow then something is really wrong with you. that means without this spell your paladin is a gimp? before anyone gets angry at me. I have a 18 paladin 2 fighter 8 epic right now. sword and board. i run in divine crusader. So i honestly see no issue with this reduction. lol. we all knew paladins were pretty nice with these changes. this isn't going to gimp them all of a sudden.

I will still continue to play him and enjoy him while using the new holy sword.

[Vanhooger]

Devs, why don't you fix exploit build before fixing something WAI? I will never understand the way you prioritize fix. (Yes I'm thinking of you wolf build)

Oh, and bard swash are way more dps than actual Paladin. No word on fixing them.

Disappointing.

[Loromir]

Its the Combination of DPS and survivability that makes Paladins Overpowered.


I think they need to think of a way to make Holy Sword useful and desirable but yet less powerful than it is currently.

My Idea: Current iteration of Holy Sword needs to be eliminated.

1. Give Holy Sword spell a Shorter Duration.
2. Make it break fortification of undead.
3. Keep +1 Crit range and +1 multiplier and +1[W] against Chaotic Evil only.
4. +1 Multiplier and +1[W] against Neutral Evil.
5. +1 Multiplier against Lawful Evil.
6. No extra Benefits against (Lawful/True/Chaotic) Neutral.
7. -10% DPS against all Good alignments.


Leave Zeal right where it is.

[Loromir]

Devs, why don't you fix exploit build before fixing something WAI? I will never understand the way you prioritize fix. (Yes I'm thinking of you wolf build)

Oh, and bard swash are way more dps than actual Paladin. No word on fixing them.

Disappointing.



Swash doesn't have near the survivability of a Paladin.

[arkonas]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. My pally still rocks even if it is -1[w] than before.

thank you. i know my pally will still rock minus even with these changes. i didn't build him because one freaking spell.

[Vanhooger]

Swash doesn't have near the survivability of a Paladin.

Lol, what do they missing? The only difference is divine grace. C'mon, be objective.

[Severlin]

Devs, why don't you fix exploit build before fixing something WAI? I will never understand the way you prioritize fix. (Yes I'm thinking of you wolf build)

Oh, and bard swash are way more dps than actual Paladin. No word on fixing them.

Disappointing.

Fixing Druid is a large project. Druid forms definitely need addressing, and that's a complex change that will require tech to do correctly. We will probably do a Druid revamp with a much needed third tree after we finish the third Favored Soul tree. At that time Druid forms and Druid trees will be examined.

Sev~

[Blackheartox]

Lol, what do they missing? The only difference is divine grace. C'mon, be objective.

Shadow dragon plate dr.
Shouldnt add more i think

[Blackheartox]

Fixing Druid is a large project. Druid forms definitely need addressing, and that's a complex change that will require tech to do correctly. We will probably do a Druid revamp with a much needed third tree after we finish the third Favored Soul tree. At that time Druid forms and Druid trees will be examined.

Sev~

I personally love playing druid and im one of the people who are most for fixing the feats working in form.
Also caster druds are underwhelming compared to sorc/wizz or even cleric and fsoul light builds recenltly.
Now if you guys plan to add a third tree, please dont make it a pet tree, it has been proved that pets are waste of efficient dev time

Issue is from my perspective this will mean that druids will remain broken for at least half a year

[Loromir]

Lol, what do they missing? The only difference is divine grace. C'mon, be objective.

Divine Grace
Lay on of Hands
Disease Removal Clicky that can have Greater Restoration added to it (Among other things)
Heavy Armor Mastery that is IMO is better than evasion
Sealed Life (Basically permanent Deathward)
....and probably more that I'm not thinking of right now.


FYI...I have a lvl 28 Swash that I absolutely love and a lvl 26 Pure Paladin that I enjoy just as much...so I'm not playing favorites.

[Grailhawk]

Oh, and bard swash are way more dps than actual Paladin. No word on fixing them..

I've ran numbers that disagree by as much as 300 DPS. Paladins are king right now bards are second place in general, this change will not change that though it will bring the number down.

Its a good change but not enough, IMO.

[Vanhooger]

Shadow dragon plate dr.
Shouldnt add more i think

Sure, but they have high dodge, displacment as a spell, buff song, fascinate etc...I mean, they don't lack defense.

[Vanhooger]

I've ran numbers that disagree by as much as 300 DPS. Paladins are king right now bards are second place in general, this change will not change that though it will bring the number down.

Its a good change but not enough, IMO.

I f you on cannith I will prove you're wrong :)

[Loromir]

Sure, but they have high dodge, displacment as a spell, buff song, fascinate etc...I mean, they don't lack defense.

Even with all that...Paladin still has better defenses than Bard.

[Thar]

Holy Sword will keep its critical changes. It will drop the enhancement bonus down to +1 and it will lose the +1[W]. Paladin DPS is slightly overperforming where we want it to be. (Honestly the spell is still great; the +1[W] was gratuitous.)



Player feedback has overwhelmingly indicated that adjustments to changes should happen sooner rather than later when it needs to be done. Players will probably be seeing a lot of tuning as we balance the classes.

Sev~

Shouldn't any "nerf"s wait until the power changes for all of the classes are complete? 1(w) is what at most a d10 for bastard sword= 5.5 statistical average damage. How is 5 pts of damage overpowering at cap? If barbarians or ranged combat gets appropriate dps adjustments, pallys will then be behind in dps back where they were? Not saying it does or doesn't need adjustment, but it should wait till the plan for all the adjustments is complete before people whine that it's better than my toon.

[Vanhooger]

Even with all that...Paladin still has better defenses than Bard.

Ok agreed, but don't tell me that bard defense if played well are so far behind.

[Grailhawk]

I f you on cannith I will prove you're wrong :)

Just because you cant achieve the theoretical maxes on a Paladin and Bard doesn't mean others cant come closer and have the correct order.

[nibel]

Holy Sword planned changes for Update 24: We are currently planning to remove the +(W) and reduce the +2 enhancement bonus to +1.

Just want to chime in that I still miss the DR-breaking properties of the original Holy Sword. I know this would step a bit on the artificer role of weapon buffer, but since Holy Sword is self-only, I don't see where allowing the weapon to bypass silver and cold iron DR would break them. (Some people argue that people just use Thunderforged, which makes the change minor anyway)

Or maybe, give DR bypass based on faith: Host/Amaunator is Good, Silver Flame is Silver (they fight lycanthropes), LoB is Adamantine, Court is Cold Iron (elves are fey-linked), and Vulkoor is Byeshk (drow meet a lot of aberrations at home).

[Monkey-Boy]

Even with all that...Paladin still has better defenses than Bard.

Otto's Irresistible Dance and Fascinate make up for a hell of a lot.

[Ayseifn]

Even with all that...Paladin still has better defenses than Bard.

That's just due to the PRR/MRR changes though, heavy armour was also over tuned so evasion is weak unless you're a tree or something.

[Vanhooger]

That's just due to the PRR/MRR changes though, heavy armour was also over tuned so evasion is weak unless you're a tree or something.

On an evasion bard in light armor you can still get over 100 prr and a good amount of mrr.

[Grailhawk]

Fixing Druid is a large project. Druid forms definitely need addressing, and that's a complex change that will require tech to do correctly. We will probably do a Druid revamp with a much needed third tree after we finish the third Favored Soul tree. At that time Druid forms and Druid trees will be examined.

Sev~

Any willingness to give us a time frame as to when that will, Far future, in the coming year, soon, not soon?

[patang01]

Holy Sword will keep its critical changes. It will drop the enhancement bonus down to +1 and it will lose the +1[W]. Paladin DPS is slightly overperforming where we want it to be. (Honestly the spell is still great; the +1[W] was gratuitous.)



Player feedback has overwhelmingly indicated that adjustments to changes should happen sooner rather than later when it needs to be done. Players will probably be seeing a lot of tuning as we balance the classes.

Sev~

Fair enough, but for fudge sakes FIX things like hirelings. Any quest that require use of hirelings tactically (as say guarding a spot) are broken. Meanwhile we get things like 'champions' and all kinda new stuff and the game becomes utterly and increasingly more broken. You guys don't have the resources to do all these things so for the love of god stick with fixing important broken mechanics first, then you can spend the time nerfing or balancing things like these spells. I mean how long was runearm dc broken until someone realize after god how many posts about it that it wasn't calculating the dc correctly. Now maybe it's easy for you guys to change this particular spell, but there are so many other things that are in a state of constant brokedness, including the every weekend login issues that takes down servers for hours, until I'm at the stage where I rather take 6 months of hiatus and spend zilch, than wade through each single change that just keep breaking the game I love more and more.

So thanks for doing this rather than later but PLEASE make sure that everything else you guys have broken in the last **** months is fixed. It's tiring. I'm going to be honest; I'm not looking forward to 25 one bit. Not because I don't like the idea of more madness content, to the contrary, but once more you're adding new features (like champions) and color me surprised if that feature works like advertized. And since there's no indication that I know of that you guys are going to make it optional, it'll be another broken system that will drive me further away from the game.

Anyways - by any indication with the changes of barbarian I better wait 2-3 updates before playing it since it'll most like be turned through the sausage maker too.

[Oxarhamar]

Heck, put ranged power in there as well, so if they take focus ranged, its ranged power instead.

This could make some fighter archers as well with a good bump to ranged power... (giving us options outside of AA, moncher, and arti for range.)

Many of the classes have an archetype associated with them, but fighter is supposed to be able to excel and whatever type of combat they focus on. The strength of the fighter class is having so many bonus feats. Putting extra dps umpf into the feats that most builds can't afford to take would be a good way to put some good power back into fighter and have it maintain what is unique to it, without subtracting from the other classes.

+W are also options for some of these feats.

Again, I like it more, the more I think about it.

True selecting a Melee weapon focus could add Melee power or a ranged focus Ranged Power.

Add a bit of melee/ranged power at each feat making a pure or mostly fighter have the most benefit.

[Loromir]

Ok agreed, but don't tell me that bard defense if played well are so far behind.


I am by no means trying to say bards are gimp. Like I said....I love my swash. I just feel that Bards at this point are much closer to a balanced class than Paladins. Paladins went from bottom of the DPS totem pole to tops (or near tops) in a single update. I have no problems with Pally having the defenses they do...and they should still have good DPS...but they should fall in line DPS wise slightly behind Barb and Fighter.

[Thar]

Good. Now nerf it more and people might actually play fighters again.

Have you played a pure fighter vanguard... much better than pally version due to synergies. holy sword is needed as is to keep up with that for s/b. maybe twf pallys win but most of the pally trees are defense, twf should not be the norm.

[Thar]

I am by no means trying to say bards are gimp. Like I said....I love my swash. I just feel that Bards at this point are much closer to a balanced class than Paladins. Paladins went from bottom of the DPS totem pole to tops (or near tops) in a single update. I have no problems with Pally having the defenses they do...and they should still have good DPS...but they should fall in line DPS wise slightly behind Barb and Fighter.

fighter pass was a fail. no doubt about that unless general melee feat changes are coming.

Barbarian pass is still in process so how can you compare to make this judgment?

[Oxarhamar]

If you tell me those 14 class levels that are hella expensive are not broken currently then ok il agree.
Harmor being as it is, palies geting proficiency for free, getting stance upgrades, some ap and god mode.

That "sacrifice" would be considerd bad if holy sword was added to rogue for example and you needed 14 rogue class levels.
But the "expensive part" on a class that has superb selfheals, best saves progression in ddo, best defense and with hsword best nonexploitbroken offense cannot be considerd "expensive" at all.

Palie is op, needs toning down, case closed.

I'd eat up a 14 Rogue version of Holy sword

Mmmm
sneak attack
Improved evasion

[ThomasHunter]

I've only read Sev's comments and a few around them, but what about dropping the +W from +1 to +0.5?

Is that worthwhile?

[Ayseifn]

Does arti deadly weapons stack with holy sword, or will it after this change?

[redoubt]

are you trying to tell me that the ****** +1 dmg i can get from some of those feats is equivalent dps to holy sword? because it looks like thats what youre trying to tell me. maybe youre joking. yes that must be it. right?

You are trying to compare a single feat to something that requires 14 levels of Paladin. It would be like saying weapons focus is not as strong as Finger of Death, so FOD should be nerfed because it only needs 13 wizard levels!


if you want to play a pure or mostly fighter, 14 levels of fighter is free.

if you want to play a pure or mostly paladin, 14 levels of paladin is free.

if you want what the forums consider to be the best melee dps build, 14 paladin is free.

if you want to pick good spells out of the paladin spell list instead of bad spells, holy sword is free.

if you want to play a pure paladin and pick good spells out of the spell list and spend 42 points in an enhancement tree on things other than holy sword and still have holy sword...

holy sword is free.

so unless you want to play a build that is 13 levels or less paladin and more than 2 levels of paladin (which i definitely dont doubt for even a second, honest), its free and there should be no discussion of it as such.

unless you want to play a pure barb and also have holy sword. in which case it is not free but you have spoiled unrealistic expectations.

This points how circular people get when trying to justify the nerfs. They claim one thing is free and the other is not. 14 fighter is not free, but 14 pali is free. Makes perfect sense, not!


Patently wrong and false.

No reason to touch pally until other class passes are done. You are telling Da Vinci after he has traced an outline he needs to change the Mona Lisa.

Devs please ignore nerf whiners until 2 updates after other class changes are done. Address real issues not the crying of those whose OP build isnt the most uber anymore. There is a whole group of players with severe dismay that they cant get holy sword with a pally splash. And if they cant have it with their monk 6 and whatever 9 build they dont want others to have it.

Fix things not WAI, update gimped classes then look at the big picture again.

Signed
The rest of the forums sick of kneejerk reactions.

I too am tired of the rabid pendulum swinging.


How about stop making class changes then one update later nerfing those changes. Can you at least let things play out for a year before redoing everything you did? This is a ridiculous way to run a game.

Yep, more of us on the same page. Not sure how the "overwhelming majority" is on the nerf it side...


I think the bigger joke is your post. Its intentionally inaccurate.

Take 14 levels of Fighter and compare the extra feats over the 14 levels of Pally.
Now that would be an honest and accurate comparison.
But when that doesnt prove your point you had better avoid it.

Better yet, be honest and compare Holy Sword to what a Kensai Keen Edge fighter has, but add in all the damage and to hit bonuses from the required feats but keep a separate tally of the other DPS buffs from the enhancements you take working the tree. Then take 6 monk and run around centered swinging that huge pece of steel and tell me how OP that pally is and how pathetic your DPS is in comparison. Not buying any bit of it and I hope the devs aren't either.

Yes. Please compare everything you get with your centered kensai build before you say you are out matched. Make the comparison fair for once.


Holy Sword planned changes for Update 24: We are currently planning to remove the +(W) and reduce the +2 enhancement bonus to +1.

We are intentionally timing this after we (devs and players) have had some time to see the effects of changes, but not so long that it's ingrained into long-beloved player builds -- that's why we've aimed at one update later. This timing is specifically based off of player feedback from when we asked about Character Balance and the popular and considered opinion how soon after balance changes should occur.

I am not in the "overwhelming majority" that seems to scream the loudest on the forums. Paladins and heavy armor tanks were so bad that my last one was built back when heroic GH was end game content. He is a bank toon now. The changes to armor and the boost to paladin got me to try heavy armor S&B again. I had not even tried it as a past life because I new paladin was abysmal.

The next thing to discuss is the pendulum you at Turbine seem to be stuck on. Please get off of it. I for one, would appreciate a more stable game. Thank you.


In what world is 14 levels of Pally any sort of cost? Do people on the forums even play the game? 14 levels of pally gives you the ability to take the top tier of most other trees in the game. It allows to splash multiple classes to gain more feats. It allows the ability to splash for evasion (not that you actually should anymore, evasion is dead). It allows you to splash to get helpful spells like blur and displacement. What exactly is the cost of 14 pally levels? It is infinitely better than a centered kensai because you don't need to be centered to get it! The ability to drop cloth is a huge bonus!

Have you built one? All those other things you are talking about paladin having are hard to get. AP are very tight as are feats. I don't have the disease removal or added spells because I don't have the action points for it.

Cost? I ended up dropping points out of human and lost the healing amp because I did not have enough to get the bonus to shield in defender and exalted cleave at the same time with healing amp.

So there is a cost.


Holy Sword will keep its critical changes. It will drop the enhancement bonus down to +1 and it will lose the +1[W]. Paladin DPS is slightly overperforming where we want it to be. (Honestly the spell is still great; the +1[W] was gratuitous.)



Player feedback has overwhelmingly indicated that adjustments to changes should happen sooner rather than later when it needs to be done. Players will probably be seeing a lot of tuning as we balance the classes.

Sev~

From who? The same half dozen who run the forum here and tell you that "everyone" in the game thinks like they do? Not all of us do.

[Loromir]

fighter pass was a fail. no doubt about that unless general melee feat changes are coming.

Barbarian pass is still in process so how can you compare to make this judgment?


I am talking about the state of things right now. Barb Pass is not live yet.

[redoubt]

On an evasion bard in light armor you can still get over 100 prr and a good amount of mrr.

Wait, whaaaattt?!?!? You can have PRR, MRR and EVASION (with the much higher dodge cap that comes with lighter armors!) Oh Noes!!!!

Thank you for reminding people about this. Paladin defense is good. But its not the only way.


True selecting a Melee weapon focus could add Melee power or a ranged focus Ranged Power.

Add a bit of melee/ranged power at each feat making a pure or mostly fighter have the most benefit.

I still really like this idea!


Have you played a pure fighter vanguard... much better than pally version due to synergies. holy sword is needed as is to keep up with that for s/b. maybe twf pallys win but most of the pally trees are defense, twf should not be the norm.

I have not, but thank you for being willing to speak up, from that experience, that fighter is not lagging as far behind as the nerfers are claiming.

[jalont]

Have you built one? All those other things you are talking about paladin having are hard to get. AP are very tight as are feats. I don't have the disease removal or added spells because I don't have the action points for it.

Cost? I ended up dropping points out of human and lost the healing amp because I did not have enough to get the bonus to shield in defender and exalted cleave at the same time with healing amp.

So there is a cost.


Holy Sword costs 0 AP.

[Chai]

If you tell me those 14 class levels that are hella expensive are not broken currently then ok il agree.
Harmor being as it is, palies geting proficiency for free, getting stance upgrades, some ap and god mode.

That "sacrifice" would be considerd bad if holy sword was added to rogue for example and you needed 14 rogue class levels.
But the "expensive part" on a class that has superb selfheals, best saves progression in ddo, best defense and with hsword best nonexploitbroken offense cannot be considerd "expensive" at all.

Palie is op, needs toning down, case closed.

That is expensive because it limits multiclassing options. While someone wanting most of the swash benefits can take 5 bard levels and 15 levels of something else, paladin wanting holy sword has to be 14 class levels, 15 class levels if they want holy sword AND zeal, and 19 class levels if they want holy sword, zeal and deathward.

It could be worse. Holy sword could be a t5 enhancement, multiclass-able with bards and monks at the same time, etc..... :p

[Blackheartox]

That is expensive because it limits multiclassing options. While someone wanting most of the swash benefits can take 5 bard levels and 15 levels of something else, paladin wanting holy sword has to be 14 class levels, 15 class levels if they want holy sword AND zeal, and 19 class levels if they want holy sword, zeal and deathward.

It could be worse. Holy sword could be a t5 enhancement, multiclass-able with bards and monks at the same time, etc..... :p


I like that idea, t5, very nice idea.
But make it like, give only 1 enchantment bonus, then as you gain levels the cores improve it.
And cap gives full benefit with maybe the nerf proposal.

[Blackheartox]

That is expensive because it limits multiclassing options. While someone wanting most of the swash benefits can take 5 bard levels and 15 levels of something else, paladin wanting holy sword has to be 14 class levels, 15 class levels if they want holy sword AND zeal, and 19 class levels if they want holy sword, zeal and deathward.

It could be worse. Holy sword could be a t5 enhancement, multiclass-able with bards and monks at the same time, etc..... :p

Thing is, what do most people like splashing most?
Its palie.

What do bards mainly splash?
Fighter or rogue


Now, with 15 palie levels you are alrdy so far ahead of most other "splashes" that it doesnt make sense, lv 18 and cap are incredibly powerful in current endgame as well.
There just is no drawback whatsover by being a pure palie vs a pure bard.
Thats the thing that bugs me, it became so strong and braindead style of play that i cant comprehend why.
I played recently a dorf barb and i managed well in ee, before that i was a druid in braindead mode zerg, then i wanted to try smthn odd and different.
Went 15 palie 4 rogue 1 monk, evasion staff user with holy sword gearth stance w twisted, killer for lotsa dstrike to have easy time with blitz which i had etc etc.
I did 1 etr after that and i swaped same build idea for adie body and tried without eart stance.
Difference in survival even with loss of evasion was so ******** that i didnt get why having dodge and prr loses so badly vs massive prr and mrr.

[Chaimberland]

Good. Now nerf it more and people might actually play fighters again.

The whole point to the Paladin update was so that people would play Paladins again.

[Inoukchuk]

Have you played a pure fighter vanguard... much better than pally version due to synergies. holy sword is needed as is to keep up with that for s/b. maybe twf pallys win but most of the pally trees are defense, twf should not be the norm.

There are trade-offs. On a pure human paly getting capstone you get just 8 feats in heroic levels, which means you have to skip some important things. Ideally on a S&B paly you'd want BS/D-axe prof, PA, cleave, GC, 3xTHF, 2xSM, imp crit, imp shield bash at a minimum (not counting FoP, empower healing, or anything else). You already have to make a choice which DPS feats you will cut; will you lose the THF line and glancing blows, or maybe lose your AoE cleaves (sure you can get the enhancements, but since you don't have the APs for it and one is tier 5 in a tree you don't want tier 5 there are other huge trade-offs involved), or maybe you lose the shield mastery feats + ISB and with that 8% DS, 20% bash and some PRR/MRR. Anyway you cut it, you lose out on a chunk of DPS compared to fighters who have 11 extra feats and so can afford all that stuff + maybe some ranged feats for manyshot, or some weap spec feats + toughness, dodge, etc.

That said Paladin is I think still ahead given the fact that holy sword + zeal makes up for all of that, and then they get huge saves and healing on top of it. DPS should be comparable, but defense is not.

[Chai]

Thing is, what do most people like splashing most?
Its palie.

What do bards mainly splash?
Fighter or rogue


Now, with 15 palie levels you are alrdy so far ahead of most other "splashes" that it doesnt make sense, lv 18 and cap are incredibly powerful in current endgame as well.
There just is no drawback whatsover by being a pure palie vs a pure bard.
Thats the thing that bugs me, it became so strong and braindead style of play that i cant comprehend why.
I played recently a dorf barb and i managed well in ee, before that i was a druid in braindead mode zerg, then i wanted to try smthn odd and different.
Went 15 palie 4 rogue 1 monk, evasion staff user with holy sword gearth stance w twisted, killer for lotsa dstrike to have easy time with blitz which i had etc etc.
I did 1 etr after that and i swaped same build idea for adie body and tried without eart stance.
Difference in survival even with loss of evasion was so ******** that i didnt get why having dodge and prr loses so badly vs massive prr and mrr.

Its because both things in that update helped paladin immensely. It wasn't just holy sword, it was armor up as well which provided another survivability option over evasion being the best clear and obvious choice, along with the PRE changes and holy sword all at the same time, all which directly synergize with paladin, that made them go worst to first.

Im fine with it. The reason is because as each class gets its pass it gets put on top for a bit. Same thing happened to bards, and people complained about them being OP as well. That and high level paladins in D&D are supposed to be powerful - not the hilarious doorstop builds jokes were cracked about before the update.

What Turbine should have done here is make holy sword only work on swords. They have no issue restricting other powerful things to specific archetypes. Examples include cha to hit and damage for PDK on only great swords, long sword, short sword and bastard sword, as well as swashbuckling being finesse-able weapons only, so it would be in line with precedent to make holy sword a sword only buff, rather than allowing it for every weapon. No need for a nerf, just make it a niche like they did other examples.

[jalont]

Its because both things in that update helped paladin immensely. It wasn't just holy sword, it was armor up as well which provided another survivability option over evasion being the best clear and obvious choice, along with the PRE changes and holy sword all at the same time, all which directly synergize with paladin, that made them go worst to first.

Im fine with it. The reason is because as each class gets its pass it gets put on top for a bit. Same thing happened to bards, and people complained about them being OP as well. That and high level paladins in D&D are supposed to be powerful - not the hilarious doorstop builds jokes were cracked about before the update.

What Turbine should have done here is make holy sword only work on swords. They have no issue restricting other powerful things to specific archetypes. Examples include cha to hit and damage for PDK on only great swords, long sword, short sword and bastard sword, as well as swashbuckling being finesse-able weapons only, so it would be in line with precedent to make holy sword a sword only buff, rather than allowing it for every weapon. No need for a nerf, just make it a niche like they did other examples.

Too bad it isn't happening to barbs. They remain completely useless.

[Monkey-Boy]

Too bad it isn't happening to barbs. They remain completely useless.

You clearly haven't played one on lamania if you can say that.

[jalont]

You clearly haven't played one on lamania if you can say that.

I have, and I see their melee placement as the second worst. Could you explain what you liked about them so much that you thought, hey, I'd rather play this than a Pally. Or a Bard. Or a Ranger. Or a Centered-Kensai.

[Monkey-Boy]

I have, and I see their melee placement as the second worst. Could you explain what you liked about them so much that you thought, hey, I'd rather play this than a Pally. Or a Bard. Or a Ranger. Or a Centered-Kensai.

Your' statement was 'completely useless.' That is the statement I am refuting.

[redoubt]

Holy Sword costs 0 AP.

You are the one who brought up the point that Paladins 14 levels were not a cost because of the extras they could get from APs. I pointed out that, while those are nice, to get the defense (the supposed reason paladins cannot also have good offense) is such a high cost that getting those extras you mentioned is not really possible. Sure, you could take them, but you would lose either offense or defense and thus make the whole holy sword is too powerful thing a non factor again.


Thing is, what do most people like splashing most?
Its palie.

What do bards mainly splash?
Fighter or rogue

.

rogue gets you trapping and evasion (but 20 bard gets evasion anyway.)
People splash fighter to get heavy armor and weapon proficiencies.. oh and extra feats.

People splash paladin for divine grace. Period. And that is going away.

Now you want holy sword nerfed, so why take any levels of paladin? Just be a fighter instead.


The whole point to the Paladin update was so that people would play Paladins again.

Not any more....

Next: People are claiming that holy sword is too powerful because the mrr that paladins get from heavy armor is better than evasion. Wrong.

I specifically tested a 28 pure vanguard paladin for this reason. Haunted Halls on EH (not even elite.) Yes, you know where I'm going with this.

121 electric resist.
33% absorb ring
50% absorb energy sheath
50% reduction from MRR

1100 hp
4x LOH at 802 each

Dead in 5 seconds on what is, as is touted in this thread, the end all be all of dps and survivability.

Moncher. Tanked her with a bow in hand in a robe.

Holy sword did zero good in that fight. MRR was not nearly enough to stay alive. Evasion and a mid 60s save was.

Paladins are good now. MRR and PRR are good now. But so are so many other things.

A friend of mine recently returned to the game and was talked into LR'ing his first life bard into a swash to run with us (level was about right, so we picked that character.) He has no destinies filled in. My Paladin has all the destinies filled, 12-16 past lives, 10 ish epic past lives. His swash hangs just fine. With me having his buffs (I don't have any to really help him out) I stay ahead of him. If he wasn't buffing me, he dps would be pretty darn close. The third in our group is a moncher with trap skills. This, at times appears weaker, but then she can take down the boss before the swash and I can clear the trash.

So quit complaining about a spell and go build your own character and have some fun and leave my fun alone! Thank you.

[Sehenry03]

Keep in mind I play a sorc as my main...

I have no problems with DDO nerfing Holy Sword if it is to powerful. By all means go right ahead.

I understand that druids need a total overhaul to be able to fix them.

My problem is...Overhaul them for gods sake ****.

People want to complain that HArmor is now OP. Well **** how long were people able to exploit evasion with heavy armor but there was no one screaming to have that fixed.

How long have druids been OP with wolfform yet very few people scream for a nerf.

How long have people been splashing monk for evasion and/or shadow veil but no one screams for change on that.

How long was Cetus's fighter build ungodly powerful yet no one screamed for nerf on that.

In what world should a Swashbuckler bard be more DPS then a barb or DPS focused fighter build? Sorry but a Bard should NEVER be top of the charts DPS. That's another balance you should look at. Oh sorry the complainers aren't worried about that because they like the idea of swashbucklers so that's ok.

I am at a complete loss that DDO listens to people whine about Holy Sword and it is changed in the first available update yet no other FIXES have been done to balance classes. Turbine talks about wanting to keep classes balanced...ok great. Then balance them. Stop listening to whiners complain about ONE SPELL in the Paladin line and immediately fixing it for them and then continuously leave all the other BROKEN class mixes out there.

I know how good Cetus's build was as a guildy was a monster with it. I know how OP druid wolfform is because a couple guildies are monsters with it. Not just powerful in a group...Solo anything and everything powerful. Yes I can solo most stuff on my sorc but there are things I wouldn't touch that those 2 builds can walk through without issue.

So again...nerf paladins if ya want...but FIX the other classes that have been broken for YEARS and stop using the excuse that a few people thought fixing pallies now would be better for balance because those same people are NOT complaining about druids obviously because no fix has been done. And if you ARE trying to get a fix in then FOCUS on it. Put U25 on hold and do a U24.5A that focuses on druids/monks/swashbucklers.

And yes I do have a Pally...course he is lvl 4 and has been for awhile. I keep telling myself I will get him to cap but keep going back to Ziffin my Sorc...well currently a wizard getting his last wizzie PL.


P.S. Totally unrelated...but have I mentioned how much I HATE wizards!!!! LOL I miss my sorc...

[Buffyanne]

Holy Sword will keep its critical changes. It will drop the enhancement bonus down to +1 and it will lose the +1[W]. Paladin DPS is slightly overperforming where we want it to be. (Honestly the spell is still great; the +1[W] was gratuitous.)



Player feedback has overwhelmingly indicated that adjustments to changes should happen sooner rather than later when it needs to be done. Players will probably be seeing a lot of tuning as we balance the classes.

Sev~

I appreciate the feedback. I would just like to say it is frustrating that whenever a melee class gets a 'good' ability it gets nerfed very quickly. Monks EiN? Nerfed when it competed with wail of the banshee. Monks quivering palm? Nerfed to uselessness because it competed with finger of death. Nightmare weapons? Nerfed. Nightmare bastard sword? Nerfed. Swashbuckler and Paladin got nerfed one update after getting boosted. It is a very annoying trend and simply leads to people using exploitive FotM builds. So much debate and hand wringing has been spent on pure vs multi classes and why stay pure, and when there is a reason to stay pure for powerful capstones and or spells, they are getting nerfed which will only lead to more low hanging fruit multiclass tree cherry picking. I would suggest making Holy Sword a scaling spell if it is deemed too powerful at L14....for example

14 levels of Paladin - +1/crit range
16 levels of Paladin - +1 crit modifier
18 levels of Paladin - +2 Enhancement
20 levels of Paladin +1 (W) die

Holy sword IS the weapon every Paladin in AD&D aspired to receive. It should be a powerful weapon, it is a core feature of the class that no other class has access to.

[Sehenry03]

I appreciate the feedback. I would just like to say it is frustrating that whenever a melee class gets a 'good' ability it gets nerfed very quickly. Monks EiN? Nerfed when it competed with wail of the banshee. Monks quivering palm? Nerfed to uselessness because it competed with finger of death. Nightmare weapons? Nerfed. Nightmare bastard sword? Nerfed. Swashbuckler and Paladin got nerfed one update after getting boosted. It is a very annoying trend and simply leads to people using exploitive FotM builds. So much debate and hand wringing has been spent on pure vs multi classes and why stay pure, and when there is a reason to stay pure for powerful capstones and or spells, they are getting nerfed which will only lead to more low hanging fruit multiclass tree cherry picking. I would suggest making Holy Sword a scaling spell if it is deemed too powerful at L14....for example

14 levels of Paladin - +1/crit range
16 levels of Paladin - +1 crit modifier
18 levels of Paladin - +2 Enhancement
20 levels of Paladin +1 (W) die

Holy sword IS the weapon every Paladin in AD&D aspired to receive. It should be a powerful weapon, it is a core feature of the class that no other class has access to.

This would be a PERFECT way of doing Holy Sword. As mentioned...The Holy Avenger is what every Paladin strives for and it is SUPPOSE to be powerful. This is a spell and not the same exact thing but it is a decent replacement.

The other option would be a T5 capstone that lets us actually summon the Paladin weapon of destruction. Let us actually summon a sword/hammer/whatever and give it special powers that only paladins get. Something could be fleshed out

[Qezuzu]

You are trying to compare a single feat to something that requires 14 levels of Paladin. It would be like saying weapons focus is not as strong as Finger of Death, so FOD should be nerfed because it only needs 13 wizard levels!

This points how circular people get when trying to justify the nerfs. They claim one thing is free and the other is not. 14 fighter is not free, but 14 pali is free. Makes perfect sense, not!



Yup. There are no free lunches.

However, considering Paladins are simultaneously the best defensive melee and DPS melee class, and that Holy Sword conveniently requires only 14 levels (so you're able to take five levels of some other class and get benefits from those enhancements,) it's seriously not that much of a cost.


I too am tired of the rabid pendulum swinging.

I am not in the "overwhelming majority" that seems to scream the loudest on the forums. Paladins and heavy armor tanks were so bad that my last one was built back when heroic GH was end game content. He is a bank toon now. The changes to armor and the boost to paladin got me to try heavy armor S&B again. I had not even tried it as a past life because I new paladin was abysmal.

The next thing to discuss is the pendulum you at Turbine seem to be stuck on. Please get off of it. I for one, would appreciate a more stable game. Thank you.

This nerf to Holy Sword is barely anything. The reason Holy Sword is as good as it is, is because it give insane crit profiles to every and all weapons. Any Falchion gets as 13-20/x3 crit profile: that's absurd. eSoS gets 13-20/x4. Oh and this isn't some dinky 6s/CL duration spell, it lasts a minimum of 14 minutes. Nerfing it to get rid of the +[W] bonus is a highly marginal decrease in damage.


Have you built one? All those other things you are talking about paladin having are hard to get. AP are very tight as are feats. I don't have the disease removal or added spells because I don't have the action points for it.

Cost? I ended up dropping points out of human and lost the healing amp because I did not have enough to get the bonus to shield in defender and exalted cleave at the same time with healing amp.

So there is a cost.

Oh no! Healing amp! Now you won't heal as much from your multiple innate healing abilities, while every other melee class (except Rangers and Monks) are stuck with Cocoon and s****y SF pots.

[Chai]

Too bad it isn't happening to barbs. They remain completely useless.

The one barrier that stands between barbarians being viable or not in this current iteration of DDO is barbarian rage disabling their ability to do most other things that are not tethered to swinging a weapon. The community is too programmed into the self sufficiency mindset for this class to gain too much without removing that major roadblock.

This has nothing to do with Turbine giving them scads of melee power, hAmp, or better PRR for the armor they wear, and is a separate issue entirely, which does not make them a good example for judging class balance until that barrier is removed.

[Chai]

Oh no! Healing amp! Now you won't heal as much from your multiple innate healing abilities, while every other melee class (except Rangers and Monks) are stuck with Cocoon and s****y SF pots.

The ability for a class to heal itself should no longer be considered for game balance purposes, since this was handed to every single class in the game at minimal cost.

Stuck with cocoon? Its all a good player needs.

If the game wasn't monte haul to the point of hilarity and required forced cooperation to succeed, then balancing based on damage recovery makes sense. When every class has access to all the damage recovery they really ever need at minimal cost, and everyone is expected to be able to heal themselves in groups, that handedly refutes balancing based on damage recovery.

[Qezuzu]

The ability for a class to heal itself should no longer be considered for game balance purposes, since this was handed to every single class in the game at minimal cost.

Stuck with cocoon? Its all a good player needs.

If the game wasn't monte haul to the point of hilarity and required forced cooperation to succeed, then balancing based on damage recovery makes sense. When every class has access to all the damage recovery they really ever need at minimal cost, and everyone is expected to be able to heal themselves in groups, that handedly refutes balancing based on damage recovery.

Cocoon is just about the bare minimum of self-healing, above SF pots I guess. I know it's sufficient for just about all content, but very often I find myself having to kite mobs around while waiting for cocoon to go off timer, at least when soloing EE stuff (maybe it's because I don't have HArmor prof lol.) My point was that "I have to drop healing amp because paladin AP is tight" is a tiny gripe considering Paladins have better self-sufficiency than all the other melee classes, because, you know, they can use Cocoon too.

[Chai]

Cocoon is just about the bare minimum of self-healing, above SF pots I guess. I know it's sufficient for just about all content, but very often I find myself having to kite mobs around while waiting for cocoon to go off timer, at least when soloing EE stuff (maybe it's because I don't have HArmor prof lol.) My point was that "I have to drop healing amp because paladin AP is tight" is a tiny gripe considering Paladins have better self-sufficiency than all the other melee classes, because, you know, they can use Cocoon too.

Playing with HOTs means paying the healing forward rather than using it in a reactionary fashion like one would use direct healing spells. Its all a good player really needs. The majority of the rest of the self healing needs to be feated with quicken and empower heal to be effective in the toughest content. Cocoon is not interruptible by damage.

If this game were about forced cooperation, and there weren't already past examples where the best offense classes already have the best damage recovery which the majority defended tooth and nail during those eras, id totally agree with using damage recovery as a balancing factor. The way DDO is set up nowdays, its not a really balancing factor. Everyone has access to it hand over fist. Self healing is the default. The only characters who don't have it are those whose players made build choices which didn't include it. It is available to all however. When centered kensai was top or near top DPS, people didn't gravitate away from it to play paladins due to self healing. They simply grabbed a stack of heal scrolls, twisted in cocoon, and built a centered kensai.

Now paladins get their 15 minutes of fame.

[Sehenry03]

This nerf to Holy Sword is barely anything. The reason Holy Sword is as good as it is, is because it give insane crit profiles to every and all weapons. Any Falchion gets as 13-20/x3 crit profile: that's absurd. eSoS gets 13-20/x4. Oh and this isn't some dinky 6s/CL duration spell, it lasts a minimum of 14 minutes. Nerfing it to get rid of the +[W] bonus is a highly marginal decrease in damage.

Well if it is highly marginal then why worry about it? Seems like it is only really gonna help the lower lvling process.

Again if its a very small change why are we even discussing this when so many other things need help a LOT?

[Seikojin]

Fixing Druid is a large project. Druid forms definitely need addressing, and that's a complex change that will require tech to do correctly. We will probably do a Druid revamp with a much needed third tree after we finish the third Favored Soul tree. At that time Druid forms and Druid trees will be examined.

Sev~

Thanks for the insight on plans for druid. I know it is not wai and I am glad it is scheduled to be looked into.

[Oxarhamar]

Thing is, what do most people like splashing most?
Its palie.

What do bards mainly splash?
Fighter or rogue


Now, with 15 palie levels you are alrdy so far ahead of most other "splashes" that it doesnt make sense, lv 18 and cap are incredibly powerful in current endgame as well.
There just is no drawback whatsover by being a pure palie vs a pure bard.
Thats the thing that bugs me, it became so strong and braindead style of play that i cant comprehend why.
I played recently a dorf barb and i managed well in ee, before that i was a druid in braindead mode zerg, then i wanted to try smthn odd and different.
Went 15 palie 4 rogue 1 monk, evasion staff user with holy sword gearth stance w twisted, killer for lotsa dstrike to have easy time with blitz which i had etc etc.
I did 1 etr after that and i swaped same build idea for adie body and tried without eart stance.
Difference in survival even with loss of evasion was so ******** that i didnt get why having dodge and prr loses so badly vs massive prr and mrr.


Sorry this only applies to some builds.

The only some builds not all have the points to spend in those enhancements.

[Oxarhamar]

Fixing Druid is a large project. Druid forms definitely need addressing, and that's a complex change that will require tech to do correctly. We will probably do a Druid revamp with a much needed third tree after we finish the third Favored Soul tree. At that time Druid forms and Druid trees will be examined.

Sev~

And when will Artifcer have its 3rd tree as well as fixing the 2 broken trees it already has & Epic Destiny?

[redoubt]

However, considering Paladins are simultaneously the best defensive melee and DPS melee class, and that Holy Sword conveniently requires only 14 levels (so you're able to take five levels of some other class and get benefits from those enhancements,) it's seriously not that much of a cost.

I and others disagree. Please check on fighter in Defender. Then you can also look at Miior. Go tank her with a paladin. Don't think that is a good idea? Think its better to range her instead? Well, you are right. Just TANK her with a moncher in robes. Miior doesn't seem to agree with your assessment that paladins have the best defense.



This nerf to Holy Sword is barely anything. The reason Holy Sword is as good as it is, is because it give insane crit profiles to every and all weapons. Any Falchion gets as 13-20/x3 crit profile: that's absurd. eSoS gets 13-20/x4. Oh and this isn't some dinky 6s/CL duration spell, it lasts a minimum of 14 minutes. Nerfing it to get rid of the +[W] bonus is a highly marginal decrease in damage.


How many Vanguards have that crit profile? NONE!

This is more of the same old junk. You pick the f'n ESOS and use it as the reason to nerf stuff. The only result of that is the ESOS is still top dog and will be viable for a paladin and watch the B.Sword and D.Axe users say a screw it... again...

If the problem is the ESOS or the Falchion, change them. (But I don't think they are really an issue either.)


Well if it is highly marginal then why worry about it? Seems like it is only really gonna help the lower lvling process.

Again if its a very small change why are we even discussing this when so many other things need help a LOT?

Because he knows its not marginal.
TF bastard sword 1d10+1 loss per swing (the multiply that loss across crit.)
Now consider that Vanguards are likely to take shield feats over cleaves and run in DC over LD. So double strike will be high and very high during the epic moment. This further inflates the affect of this on Vanguards (from the high attack rate) and not nearly as much on THFs. (TWFs are already screwed, so I don't know how to help them.)

Some how people were able to see past the god-like Cetus builds and realize that the 0.1% crowd should not be rationale for nerfs to the other 99.9%. I've not played a THF paladin recently, so maybe it is god-like also, but even if it is, Vanguard is just good enough to play it and not be something else. Intimidate was nerfed a long time ago. Even with intimate and +125% threat I occasionally find mobs will wander off. What is going to happen when we loose damage?

I'm all for helping fighters get a boost. See Oxhammers idea about putting melee power in the focus and spec feats. I think that is great. We be adding another option instead of taking options away...

Isn't the Paladin supposed to be an iconic part of D&D? Do you all even want people to play them? The reason to splash is going away and as stuff like this is pushed through the only reason to play them with be BF THF with ESOS or TF. Is that really the intent here?

[Wipey]

Hi.
My thf Paladin has 1200 hp, Consecration ticks for 370, SF pot hits for 790 ( will be 900 after Wednesday ), 550 from csw, 1400 from Loh.
190 prr and 75 saves at cap.
And best Double strike and crit profile of all melees.

If you go Vanguard, you have 230 prr and 95+ Stun at cap.
Lol. It's completely ridiculous compared to content difficulty. I don't know what you guys use as a base for "balancing" but I've no idea how we got to this point in the game.
Half the raids and quests are Paladins, why the heck would you play anything else ?

[jalont]

Your' statement was 'completely useless.' That is the statement I am refuting.

Useless was perhaps the wrong word to use. But they certainly aren't being buffed to be the new fotm.


You are the one who brought up the point that Paladins 14 levels were not a cost because of the extras they could get from APs. I pointed out that, while those are nice, to get the defense (the supposed reason paladins cannot also have good offense) is such a high cost that getting those extras you mentioned is not really possible. Sure, you could take them, but you would lose either offense or defense and thus make the whole holy sword is too powerful thing a non factor again.

I still don't really understand. Say you want to play a tempest. Do you either A.) build a ranger or B.) Build a ranger with a 14 pally splash? Well, you "splash" 14 pally of course because those 14 levels really don't come at a cost and the benefits are... astronomical.

[HatsuharuZ]

Fixing Druid is a large project. Druid forms definitely need addressing, and that's a complex change that will require tech to do correctly. We will probably do a Druid revamp with a much needed third tree after we finish the third Favored Soul tree. At that time Druid forms and Druid trees will be examined.

Sev~

I am very happy to see that you guys are acknowledging this issue! :D

[Qezuzu]

I and others disagree. Please check on fighter in Defender. Then you can also look at Miior. Go tank her with a paladin. Don't think that is a good idea? Think its better to range her instead? Well, you are right. Just TANK her with a moncher in robes. Miior doesn't seem to agree with your assessment that paladins have the best defense.

I specifically said melee defense, I don't know why you would bring up a boss that is a). is exceedingly difficult for anyone to melee, and b). is optional. And Stalwart Defender and Sacred Defender have tons of overlap in their abilities, andt Paladins have Lay on Hands and enourmous saves. Oh yeah, and the best defense is a good offense.


How many Vanguards have that crit profile? NONE!

Any lvl14 Paladin can use Holy Sword ffs.


This is more of the same old junk. You pick the f'n ESOS and use it as the reason to nerf stuff.

ESoS was an example. I am not literally saying "Paladins can take an insane crit profile weapon and make it more insane so plz nerf." I did not even say to nerf anything, I was explaining why Holy Sword is great and why losing the bonus [W] is nothing.


If the problem is the ESOS or the Falchion, change them. (But I don't think they are really an issue either.)

Okay: not eSoS or Falchion (Flachion is an entire class of weapons by the way) examples:
Any Kohpesh: 15-20/x4
Balizarde: 13-20/x4
Pinion: 15-20/x3
Any Kukri: 13-20/x3 (Rogues have enhancements that specifically buffs Kukris but Paladins are still better users of them.)

I am not even saying to nerf Holy Sword, I was saying that the benefit from Holy Sword is not the +W to damage. That's marginal. Holy Sword is great because it significantly outperforms basically every other effect that changes crit.

Just for a second, compare Holy Sword to other feats and enhancements that modify crit profiles:
-Overwhelming Critical: +1 crit multiplier of 19-20 only
-Fighter Keen Edge: +1 threat range
-Rogue Knife Specialization: +1 multiplier on Kukris and Daggers, +1 range on daggers (functions with Kukris/daggers only)
-Rogue and Monk Staff Specialzation: +1 threat and mult, staffs only
-Barbarian Critical Rage: +2 threat (not increased by improved crit.)
-Swashbuckler: various bonuses to light weapons (http://ddowiki.com/page/Swashbuckler_enhancements)
-Divine Crusader: +1 threat
-Dreadnought: +1 mult on 19-20

Holy Sword increases mult and threat by +1. The ONLY other effects in the game that do this are weapon-specific (i.e. they turn weapons with garbage profiles into ones with decent ones.) And this is ON TOP of a current +W damage.


Because he knows its not marginal.
TF bastard sword 1d10+1 loss per swing (the multiply that loss across crit.)

6.5 loss in damage per swing is the definition of marginal.


Some how people were able to see past the god-like Cetus builds and realize that the 0.1% crowd should not be rationale for nerfs to the other 99.9%.

Lol? The 0.1% crowd? I'm literally friends with people who have played for less than a year but can solo EE quests with just a pure paladin build, because it's so easy to not die when you have ridiculous saves, PRR/MRR and AC.


I'm all for helping fighters get a boost. See Oxhammers idea about putting melee power in the focus and spec feats. I think that is great. We be adding another option instead of taking options away...

Yes. We should boost the power of other classes, since no one likes toys being taken away from them. A more ideal solution would be to go back in time and not buff Paladins to the point where they exceed every other melee class, but only to the point where they're on par.

Of course, the problem with buffing other classes to the level of Paladin of Bard is that then there's really no difficult content. Maybe that will change with Champions.


Isn't the Paladin supposed to be an iconic part of D&D? Do you all even want people to play them? The reason to splash is going away and as stuff like this is pushed through the only reason to play them with be BF THF with ESOS or TF. Is that really the intent here?

People playing them is freaking fine with me, do you think I just have some vendetta against Paladins? Just either lower them to level of the other melee classes or buff the other melee classes.

Oh and just one more clarification, I am fine with Holy Sword as it currently is. Just don't scream bloody murder when it gets nerfed in about the least meaningful way possible.

[maddong]

Holy Sword will keep its critical changes. It will drop the enhancement bonus down to +1 and it will lose the +1[W]. Paladin DPS is slightly overperforming where we want it to be.
Sev~

How does bard dps compare to where you want it to be?

[redoubt]

I still don't really understand. Say you want to play a tempest. Do you either A.) build a ranger or B.) Build a ranger with a 14 pally splash? Well, you "splash" 14 pally of course because those 14 levels really don't come at a cost and the benefits are... astronomical.

Umm... okay, two questions then:

1. Are you really saying that the one spell "Holy Sword" is better than 14 levels of any other class?

2. Should I rebuild all my characters with 14 paladin then?
--I used to have an 18 ranger, 1 monk, 1 rogue. Full trap skills, 85+AC (nearly untouchable back then) and evasion. It was a TWF'r that could get every trap in the game tank at end game (TOD). Do I build that with 14 Paladin?
--I also played a pure assassin after the previous build was nerfed. I'm not sure how to make it with 14 Paladin. Without the full rogue levels I don't see how I get my assassinate DC up high enough. Ideas on that one?
--My latest attempt at getting my main back to were I want it was 8 fighter/6 monk/ 6 rogue. I could not get the trap skills up enough without the extra rogue levels. Not sure I get holy sword here either.
--What about swashbuckler? How do I mix that with 14 paladin?
--What about druid? Same question: how do I put 14 paladin on that?
--yep, here it comes... barbarian. How do I get 14 paladin splashed on that?

There is a cost to everything, even taking 14 paladin. There are a lot of things that you cannot do if you take 14 paladin. But I guess your premise is that no one would ever make a swashbuckler or a trapper or a non-exploit druid if holy sword is not nerfed.

Maybe one more question... I've played since launch and seen most of the builds I've loved nerfed (pure monk, ranger/rogue/monk trapper tank, enchant spec'd sorc, assassin). Are you and Turbine just trying to say that I'm an old dog and of no use now? That I (and those like me) should just go ahead an leave? Maybe you are just trying to be nice and not say it, but just make it happen anyway? Back in SWG I played a tank. In SWTOR I played a tank. I played a tank in this game for a while. Maybe we just don't need or want them anymore. Maybe I'm just sick of people like Shade who always managed to drive the devs to make the game the way he wanted, promising one thing, but delivering something else. Do you remember back when epic was just a concept? that the concept for it was to be a challenge level with ZERO reward? I do. Maybe that's why I distrust so many of the "good intentions" of the people here on the forums. BAh! I should just spend the subscription on beer instead!

[Enoach]

This is just my personal feeling on the matter of Holy Sword. This comes from a person that has played a Pure Paladin since '06

First of all the spells in the paladin list Holy Sword was in need of a FIX. When Shroud was first available it gave paladin's an advantage up until everyone had DR breakers even better than the Holy Sword. Holy Sword was also limited in weapons (even just sword variations) again relegating it to a DR breaker when a character was gear poor.

It was very generous to have it add the following:
+1[W]
+2 Enhancement (That stacks)
+1 Critical Range (Competence so as not to stack with other sources)
+1 Critical Multiplier (Competence so as not to stack with other sources)
Making it available for all Weapons.

Personally I would have been happy if all Holy Sword did was:
+1 Enhancement (That Stacks)
Added Protection from Evil Effect to wielder
Added Silver & Cold Iron
Added Holy Burst
Usable on any weapon

It appears the proposed change is to now make it +1 Enhancement and remove the +1[W]. While this spell will not be as good as it is currently, it also won't be as bad as it was.

For those that are upset that the spell is not something like 6 seconds per level, consider Holy Sword originally was good until Quest Exit much like Fire Arrows.

I look at the 14 levels of paladin that must be invested to get the Holy Sword spell as opportunity cost against 52 AP (amount of AP available to spend at level 14). Many will agree that while Holy Sword is a good spell that it's companion spell Zeal makes sense. This leaves only 5 levels to use in other classes. Which means to make a Tier 5 ability available for another class all those levels will need to be spent in one other class or 15/5 split.

It is funny to actually listen to a community that for nearly 8 years has basically looked at paladins as the gimp of melee to now be shouting "Nerf them, Nerf them All"

If Turbine decides the changes are warranted I will survive it and take the change with my chin held high. I personally don't see the nerf as needed but it is what it is.

[Blackheartox]

Umm... okay, two questions then:

1. Are you really saying that the one spell "Holy Sword" is better than 14 levels of any other class?

2. Should I rebuild all my characters with 14 paladin then?
--I used to have an 18 ranger, 1 monk, 1 rogue. Full trap skills, 85+AC (nearly untouchable back then) and evasion. It was a TWF'r that could get every trap in the game tank at end game (TOD). Do I build that with 14 Paladin?
--I also played a pure assassin after the previous build was nerfed. I'm not sure how to make it with 14 Paladin. Without the full rogue levels I don't see how I get my assassinate DC up high enough. Ideas on that one?
--My latest attempt at getting my main back to were I want it was 8 fighter/6 monk/ 6 rogue. I could not get the trap skills up enough without the extra rogue levels. Not sure I get holy sword here either.
--What about swashbuckler? How do I mix that with 14 paladin?
--What about druid? Same question: how do I put 14 paladin on that?
--yep, here it comes... barbarian. How do I get 14 paladin splashed on that?

There is a cost to everything, even taking 14 paladin. There are a lot of things that you cannot do if you take 14 paladin. But I guess your premise is that no one would ever make a swashbuckler or a trapper or a non-exploit druid if holy sword is not nerfed.

Maybe one more question... I've played since launch and seen most of the builds I've loved nerfed (pure monk, ranger/rogue/monk trapper tank, enchant spec'd sorc, assassin). Are you and Turbine just trying to say that I'm an old dog and of no use now? That I (and those like me) should just go ahead an leave? Maybe you are just trying to be nice and not say it, but just make it happen anyway? Back in SWG I played a tank. In SWTOR I played a tank. I played a tank in this game for a while. Maybe we just don't need or want them anymore. Maybe I'm just sick of people like Shade who always managed to drive the devs to make the game the way he wanted, promising one thing, but delivering something else. Do you remember back when epic was just a concept? that the concept for it was to be a challenge level with ZERO reward? I do. Maybe that's why I distrust so many of the "good intentions" of the people here on the forums. BAh! I should just spend the subscription on beer instead!


Love the last part.

Issue is even when we are nostalgic for old days.
Currently palie just offers to much compared to anything else.
Even if the playstyles differ, you wont have fun as a rogue/barb/tempest in a group with several palies because they outperform you in any possible way /beside some exploit builds palie is just top dog now.
I myself really loved premotu days, then we had every build be of some use, but now?
Example monks in old days, pure monks were so bad and useless then they gave qpalm some use and nerfed it so fast that i couldnt have as much fun as i wanted with it.
So a pure palie should get same treatment and i love palie as well.
Balance wise, it just doesnt make sense to have 1 spell so strong that comes with godly ee viable defenses.
Efficiency between palie and everything else melleish /non ploit is abysmal and entirely not fun.

So il go back to the last thing you said, yes go for it ;)

[redoubt]

I specifically said melee defense, I don't know why you would bring up a boss that is a). is exceedingly difficult for anyone to melee, and b). is optional. And Stalwart Defender and Sacred Defender have tons of overlap in their abilities, andt Paladins have Lay on Hands and enourmous saves. Oh yeah, and the best defense is a good offense.

I've wanted to have a tank again ever since the AC changes several years ago. I've been enjoying playing a Vanguard for about a month now. I wanted to see if I could hold up against a know difficult boss. I could not, but a robe wearing moncher could. I'm not talking about kiting. The defense used was a melee defense. She stood there while Miior beat on her. And lived.



ESoS was an example. I am not literally saying "Paladins can take an insane crit profile weapon and make it more insane so plz nerf." I did not even say to nerf anything, I was explaining why Holy Sword is great and why losing the bonus [W] is nothing.

Okay: not eSoS or Falchion (Flachion is an entire class of weapons by the way) examples:
Any Kohpesh: 15-20/x4
Balizarde: 13-20/x4
Pinion: 15-20/x3
Any Kukri: 13-20/x3 (Rogues have enhancements that specifically buffs Kukris but Paladins are still better users of them.)

eSOS and Balizarde are the only two I can think of as well that hit 13-20x4. And you can't use eSOS on a vanguard. That said, would you really use balizarde over a TF bastard sword or dwarven axe on a vanguard? The crit range is 13-20x3.



6.5 loss in damage per swing is the definition of marginal.

3 monk past lives and 3 arcane past lives are 6 points of damage per swing. People literally spend hundreds of hours to gain that amount of power.


Lol? The 0.1% crowd? I'm literally friends with people who have played for less than a year but can solo EE quests with just a pure paladin build, because it's so easy to not die when you have ridiculous saves, PRR/MRR and AC.

After playing dex builds since 2006, I will admit that playing a cha/str paladin is a bit of a rush. Maybe I need some new blood like you to come and teach me how to play. As I have said, I've been testing the abilities of this build. Right now I'm stuck at EE lines of supply. I went in with a moncher and a battle cleric. We cleared the harpies and then the archers from up top. First and second wave went down pretty quick. Third wave (giants, right?) was not finished before the next wave behind them spawned. We continued to cut away at them up until so many spawned that the game froze. We actually had to ALT-F4 to kill the game and log into other characters. None of us died, we just didn't have the dps.

That said, I run pugs a LOT. In the past year, while playing pure assassin in shadowdancer and then in Divine Crusader, a fire savant and even an evoker druid, I only found maybe 1 in 30 pugs that joined could out play me. I know there are many who stay in guild and channel only that are very good and would probably increase the number of people who can outplay me. That all said, I don't think its that I am a horrible player, but I don't see the type of survivability combined with DPS that is being touted here.

So what am I doing wrong that my paladin doesn't have enough power to trio (let alone solo) EE lines of supply or tank Miior? I've been trying like a good forumite to learn to play only the hardest content and that the only accurate measure of your characters effectiveness is beating said content...

[Angelic-council]

Hi.
My thf Paladin has 1200 hp, Consecration ticks for 370, SF pot hits for 790 ( will be 900 after Wednesday ), 550 from csw, 1400 from Loh.
190 prr and 75 saves at cap.
And best Double strike and crit profile of all melees.

If you go Vanguard, you have 230 prr and 95+ Stun at cap.
Lol. It's completely ridiculous compared to content difficulty. I don't know what you guys use as a base for "balancing" but I've no idea how we got to this point in the game.
Half the raids and quests are Paladins, why the heck would you play anything else ?

I have no idea too. High prr, mrr, saves.. good defense and offense. Also, heal amp in U24 will buff paladins even more.

Yes, Holy sword will get nerfed.. But, it doesn't mean paladins are dead now. I like how people bring: Bard, fighter, barb vs paladin. Aren't they all different? Fighters can't use divine spells, lay hand and other special powers.

Pallies can get 230 prr, over 100 mrr... lets just say they have 50% magic resistance, another 50% for having high reflex save, 33% from gear, 10% from celestial, and few more coming from past lifes and EDs. In the end, it's possible to reduce 2000 damage to 300 damage, and 1000 damage to lower than 120 damage. How often do we see monsters deal 1000 damage btw... PRR/MRR vs Evasion?.. this is a silly argument. Both are balanced, and put a good fight.

[Qezuzu]

Umm... okay, two questions then:

1. Are you really saying that the one spell "Holy Sword" is better than 14 levels of any other class?

2. Should I rebuild all my characters with 14 paladin then?
--I used to have an 18 ranger, 1 monk, 1 rogue. Full trap skills, 85+AC (nearly untouchable back then) and evasion.

Exploiter build was back when the power of classes was not incredibly front-loaded. 14 levels of Paladin still allows you to use all of the enhancements from other class because you only need five.


--I also played a pure assassin after the previous build was nerfed. I'm not sure how to make it with 14 Paladin. Without the full rogue levels I don't see how I get my assassinate DC up high enough. Ideas on that one?
--My latest attempt at getting my main back to were I want it was 8 fighter/6 monk/ 6 rogue. I could not get the trap skills up enough without the extra rogue levels. Not sure I get holy sword here either.
--What about swashbuckler? How do I mix that with 14 paladin?
--What about druid? Same question: how do I put 14 paladin on that?
--yep, here it comes... barbarian. How do I get 14 paladin splashed on that?

There is a cost to everything, even taking 14 paladin. There are a lot of things that you cannot do if you take 14 paladin. But I guess your premise is that no one would ever make a swashbuckler or a trapper or a non-exploit druid if holy sword is not nerfed.

Thanks Sherlock, you can't take more than six levels of some other class with 14 of another, or multiclass a pure build, or use Assassinate effectively without pure rogue. But, if I'm trying to make a build whose sole aim is to a). do tons of damage, and b). take/negate damage, aka the two most important things in DDO, what reason is there to not take 14 Paladin? No otherclass (besides casters obviously) gets such a huge benefit for taking that many levels, because the bonuses for most other classes taper off after lvl5.

Maybe if the lvl 8/12/16 fighter-exclusive Weapon Focus/Specialization feats were not garbage +1/+2 bonuses to hit/dmg, Holy Sword would not look so OP.
Or, if the benefit of lvl12 Rogue, Improved Sneak Attack (a normal feat you have to purchase btw,) wasn't a mere +3d6 SA damage (and didn't require 21 DEX,) Holy Sword would not look so OP. Or if Assassinate did not require a pure build and intensive INT investment, and was not so mechanically inferior to other insta-kill abilities.
Or, if the benefit of lvl14 Ranger was not only CSW as a spell.


Maybe one more question... I've played since launch and seen most of the builds I've loved nerfed (pure monk, ranger/rogue/monk trapper tank, enchant spec'd sorc, assassin). Are you and Turbine just trying to say that I'm an old dog and of no use now? That I (and those like me) should just go ahead an leave? Maybe you are just trying to be nice and not say it, but just make it happen anyway? Back in SWG I played a tank. In SWTOR I played a tank. I played a tank in this game for a while. Maybe we just don't need or want them anymore. Maybe I'm just sick of people like Shade who always managed to drive the devs to make the game the way he wanted, promising one thing, but delivering something else. Do you remember back when epic was just a concept? that the concept for it was to be a challenge level with ZERO reward? I do. Maybe that's why I distrust so many of the "good intentions" of the people here on the forums. BAh! I should just spend the subscription on beer instead!

Paladin JUST got buffed. Holy Sword without the damage increase is still an insanely powerful spell. You're acting as if this nerf is going to make Paladins irrelevant again.

(By the way, when did Assassin get nerfed?)

[Angelic-council]

This is just my personal feeling on the matter of Holy Sword. This comes from a person that has played a Pure Paladin since '06

First of all the spells in the paladin list Holy Sword was in need of a FIX. When Shroud was first available it gave paladin's an advantage up until everyone had DR breakers even better than the Holy Sword. Holy Sword was also limited in weapons (even just sword variations) again relegating it to a DR breaker when a character was gear poor.

It was very generous to have it add the following:
+1[W]
+2 Enhancement (That stacks)
+1 Critical Range (Competence so as not to stack with other sources)
+1 Critical Multiplier (Competence so as not to stack with other sources)
Making it available for all Weapons.

Personally I would have been happy if all Holy Sword did was:
+1 Enhancement (That Stacks)
Added Protection from Evil Effect to wielder
Added Silver & Cold Iron
Added Holy Burst
Usable on any weapon

It appears the proposed change is to now make it +1 Enhancement and remove the +1[W]. While this spell will not be as good as it is currently, it also won't be as bad as it was.

For those that are upset that the spell is not something like 6 seconds per level, consider Holy Sword originally was good until Quest Exit much like Fire Arrows.

I look at the 14 levels of paladin that must be invested to get the Holy Sword spell as opportunity cost against 52 AP (amount of AP available to spend at level 14). Many will agree that while Holy Sword is a good spell that it's companion spell Zeal makes sense. This leaves only 5 levels to use in other classes. Which means to make a Tier 5 ability available for another class all those levels will need to be spent in one other class or 15/5 split.

It is funny to actually listen to a community that for nearly 8 years has basically looked at paladins as the gimp of melee to now be shouting "Nerf them, Nerf them All"

If Turbine decides the changes are warranted I will survive it and take the change with my chin held high. I personally don't see the nerf as needed but it is what it is.

I don't think paladins should be nerfed. I personally see nothing serious in holy sword change..

[Chai]

Every time there has been a class revamp where a specific class became more powerful there have been those who asked for it to be nerfed shortly thereafter because it disrupted the old food chain they grew accustomed to.

[Qezuzu]

I've wanted to have a tank again ever since the AC changes several years ago. I've been enjoying playing a Vanguard for about a month now. I wanted to see if I could hold up against a know difficult boss. I could not, but a robe wearing moncher could. I'm not talking about kiting. The defense used was a melee defense. She stood there while Miior beat on her. And lived.

That specific boss is an outlier because it has an extremely anti-melee mechanic in the electric DOTs.


eSOS and Balizarde are the only two I can think of as well that hit 13-20x4. And you can't use eSOS on a vanguard. That said, would you really use balizarde over a TF bastard sword or dwarven axe on a vanguard? The crit range is 13-20x3.

Again, examples. Holy Sword outperforms every other effect that modifies crit profile.


3 monk past lives and 3 arcane past lives are 6 points of damage per swing. People literally spend hundreds of hours to gain that amount of power.

People only do that for completionist reasons, people who actually do that for "gee I really need another +1 to damage, then I can solo EE What Goes Up" are dumb.


After playing dex builds since 2006, I will admit that playing a cha/str paladin is a bit of a rush. Maybe I need some new blood like you to come and teach me how to play.

New blood? Lol? Are we actually doing this? Put this into perspective: when I joined, guilds did not have a level. The level cap would not have have been increased past 20 for another two and a half years; I probably capped a good couple dozen alts/TRs before that happened. Go ****talk the 2013/2014 guys all you want, but I know a thing or two.


As I have said, I've been testing the abilities of this build. Right now I'm stuck at EE lines of supply. I went in with a moncher and a battle cleric. We cleared the harpies and then the archers from up top. First and second wave went down pretty quick. Third wave (giants, right?) was not finished before the next wave behind them spawned. We continued to cut away at them up until so many spawned that the game froze. We actually had to ALT-F4 to kill the game and log into other characters. None of us died, we just didn't have the dps.

That said, I run pugs a LOT. In the past year, while playing pure assassin in shadowdancer and then in Divine Crusader, a fire savant and even an evoker druid, I only found maybe 1 in 30 pugs that joined could out play me. I know there are many who stay in guild and channel only that are very good and would probably increase the number of people who can outplay me. That all said, I don't think its that I am a horrible player, but I don't see the type of survivability combined with DPS that is being touted here.

So what am I doing wrong that my paladin doesn't have enough power to trio (let alone solo) EE lines of supply or tank Miior? I've been trying like a good forumite to learn to play only the hardest content and that the only accurate measure of your characters effectiveness is beating said content...

My pure 20 rogue has soloed EE Lines of Supply and I can most definitely say I do not have as much survivability or DPS as a well-built Paladin.

And again, Miior basically can't be meleed in EE.

[redoubt]

Exploiter build was back when the power of classes was not incredibly front-loaded. 14 levels of Paladin still allows you to use all of the enhancements from other class because you only need five.



Thanks Sherlock, you can't take more than six levels of some other class with 14 of another, or multiclass a pure build, or use Assassinate effectively without pure rogue. But, if I'm trying to make a build whose sole aim is to a). do tons of damage, and b). take/negate damage, aka the two most important things in DDO, what reason is there to not take 14 Paladin? No otherclass (besides casters obviously) gets such a huge benefit for taking that many levels, because the bonuses for most other classes taper off after lvl5.Maybe if the lvl 8/12/16 fighter-exclusive Weapon Focus/Specialization feats were not garbage +1/+2 bonuses to hit/dmg, Holy Sword would not look so OP.
Or, if the benefit of lvl12 Rogue, Improved Sneak Attack (a feat you have to purchase btw,) wasn't a mere +3d6 SA damage, Holy Sword would not look so OP. Or if Assassinate did not require a pure build and intensive INT investment, and was not so mechanically inferior to other insta-kill abilities.
Or, if the benefit of lvl14 Ranger was not only CSW as a spell.



Paladin JUST got buffed. Holy Sword without the damage increase is still an insanely powerful spell. You're acting as if this nerf is going to make Paladins irrelevant again.

(By the way, when did Assassin get nerfed?)

14 levels of paladin does not equal front loaded.

I've said I think the focus and spec feats should be buffed. The devs could easily stick melee power in there.

Just because it is obvious that you can't take more than 6 levels of another class and take 14 paladin does not mean it is not an opportunity cost of taking 14 paladin.

Maybe the devs should back load more of the classes then? Take some of the low hanging fruit and move it higher?
--monk evasion to level 9 maybe?
--monk stances require 1, 6, 12, 18 monk levels?
--monk and fighter bonus feats move from levels 1 & 2 to fill in gaps higher up so you need at least 4 levels in monk or fighter to get a bonus feat?
--make zen archery capped by monk level? i.e. 1 monk can get 1 bonus arrow, 6 monk can get, 12 monk can get 3 and 18 monk can get 4 bonus arrows?
This is exactly the sort of "fix" happening with divine grace. Someone else pointed out that you could do the same with holy sword. Make the level 14 spell just +2, then put +w at 16 and +1 threat at 18 and +1 mult at 20?

Wait, nvm, this post will be deleted because it seems that monk splashes are actually the one that is overpowered... my bad... ah... nothing to see here.

(The agro change screwed up how assassinate works and messed up double assassinates and caused mobs to auto agro on the rogue. I think this was done to fix a problem where a ranged character could pull a single mob, it just happened to have the side affect of messing with assassins.)

[Qezuzu]

14 levels of paladin does not equal front loaded.

I didn't say it was front loaded. Holy Sword is most definitely back-loaded, but this back-loaded benefit massively exceeds any other melee abilities (except some capstones, possibly.)


Just because it is obvious that you can't take more than 6 levels of another class and take 14 paladin does not mean it is not an opportunity cost of taking 14 paladin.

There's an opportunity cost to doing anything, but in this case the opportunity cost is negligible.


Maybe the devs should back load more of the classes then? Take some of the low hanging fruit and move it higher?
--monk evasion to level 9 maybe?
--monk stances require 1, 6, 12, 18 monk levels?
--monk and fighter bonus feats move from levels 1 & 2 to fill in gaps higher up so you need at least 4 levels in monk or fighter to get a bonus feat?
--make zen archery capped by monk level? i.e. 1 monk can get 1 bonus arrow, 6 monk can get, 12 monk can get 3 and 18 monk can get 4 bonus arrows?
This is exactly the sort of "fix" happening with divine grace. Someone else pointed out that you could do the same with holy sword. Make the level 14 spell just +2, then put +w at 16 and +1 threat at 18 and +1 mult at 20?

Wait, nvm, this post will be deleted because it seems that monk splashes are actually the one that is overpowered... my bad... ah... nothing to see here.

That's just nerfing Monk splashes and not improving monks. Improving things classes already get, like the fighter feats, to not suck, is good: arbitrarily pushing front-loaded abilities back is not.


(The agro change screwed up how assassinate works and messed up double assassinates and caused mobs to auto agro on the rogue. I think this was done to fix a problem where a ranged character could pull a single mob, it just happened to have the side affect of messing with assassins.)

Oh, that. As long as I could remember, from 2010 to some update (I believe it was 17) Assassinate functioned like that, where everything would instantly aggro you. After u17 and until some other update, you could assassinate and nothing would aggro on you; you could clear entire quests of trash and never take damage. And then it went back to how it normally functioned, except when you did get aggro, you could actually lose it by, you know, going to some other area or casting invis+sneak.

You can still double assassinate while solo though, like so (http://webmup.com/UgoCV/vid.webm).

[Ayseifn]

Every time there has been a class revamp where a specific class became more powerful there have been those who asked for it to be nerfed shortly thereafter because it disrupted the old food chain they grew accustomed to.

Yep.

No real need to nerf holy sword hard because we have no idea what Turbine has planned for other class revamps. Bards with their crazy good synergies of high ref/dodge/evasion, easy self healing and the like made them look broken. All it took to bring them in line was a PRR/MRR revamp and a nerf to SWF which came with the next update.

The barb changes seem a tad underwhelming to me ATM so hopefully there'll be some buffs coming there but I think that's where a lot of the hate is coming from, barbs aren't on top this coming update and the possibility of another 3 months of strong paladins is terrifying to some.

In any case after barbs we're getting ranged and maybe druid I think, neither of which work great for paladins(or at all in the case of druid) but do so for almost every other melee. No zeal for doubleshot, no ranged cleaves/smites/sacrifices and pretty feat starved. I mean sure 14 paladin/6 monk is pretty great now but after the ranged pass comes I doubt they'll be near the top, bad trees like DWS, Mech and the Arti ones will hopefully be buffed and who knows what else. As for druid who knows what's in store?

Only issue I have with holy sword is the opportunity cost, right now it's not much of one. Heavy armour is great so no need for evasion splashes, it costs zero AP so can take whatever tier 5 you want(within reason), works on every weapon and doesn't force things like robes, light armour or SWF on you. Maybe Lawful Good, no monk stance with the better weapons and 14 class levels will be a cost down the road though.

[FlaviusMaximus]

1. Are you really saying that the one spell "Holy Sword" is better than 14 levels of any other class?


Yes.

[EllisDee37]

Good. Now nerf it more and people might actually play fighters again.That would literally be a pointless change. There will never be a balance where the uber elites will play paladin OR fighter. Pre-U23 it was all fighter (/monk/paladin) all the time, with never a single thought to playing a paladin. Since U23, it's all paladin (pure) all the time, without a single thought to ever play a fighter again. Despite the fact that the fighter build was actually buffed by U23.

Nerf paladin enough that people "might actually play" fighters translates to: Nerf paladin so people will play fighters instead of paladin, not in addition to. I see no reason why everyone playing fighters should be better than everyone playing paladins. Your desire that fighters should be better than paladins is arbitrary and without merit.

[EllisDee37]

Maybe if the lvl 8/12/16 fighter-exclusive Weapon Focus/Specialization feats were not garbage +1/+2 bonuses to hit/dmg, Holy Sword would not look so OP.That's a logical place to do some balancing. How about +5 melee power for each of those fighter-exclusive feats?

[Oxarhamar]

That's a logical place to do some balancing. How about +5 melee power for each of those fighter-exclusive feats?

Melee or Ranged dependent on focus

[redoubt]

That's a logical place to do some balancing. How about +5 melee power for each of those fighter-exclusive feats?

What about the other two? I've not taken them on any build that did not have too since level 10 was the cap.

Would it be too much if all 5 of those feats got melee power? Do you think people who were not fighters (with all the extra feats) would drop something to pick them up for the melee power?

I know I've not had a build in years where I wasn't leaving feats on wanted on the scratch paper because I could not take them all...

[EllisDee37]

What about the other two? I've not taken them on any build that did not have too since level 10 was the cap.

Would it be too much if all 5 of those feats got melee power? Do you think people who were not fighters (with all the extra feats) would drop something to pick them up for the melee power?

I know I've not had a build in years where I wasn't leaving feats on wanted on the scratch paper because I could not take them all...I think the numbers could be tweaked to balance it; I was originally thinking +5 x4 feats for +20 melee power would be pretty nice, forgetting that 16 fighter levels (mine only has 12) gets you a fifth feat. +25 for 5 feats seems pretty nice.

And of course, ranged power instead of melee power if you take the range variants. Excellent point, Oxarhamar.

[Ayseifn]

What about the other two? I've not taken them on any build that did not have too since level 10 was the cap.

Would it be too much if all 5 of those feats got melee power? Do you think people who were not fighters (with all the extra feats) would drop something to pick them up for the melee power?

I know I've not had a build in years where I wasn't leaving feats on wanted on the scratch paper because I could not take them all...

All of them getting melee/ranged power would be boring. Power for the focus feats is fine but double strike/shot, or armour pierce or +% to-hit, or tactics or something else would make more sense.

[Hobgoblin]

+% to-hit.

i dont think thats worth it.

you already hit on anything but a 1 and to get a +5 to hit you would need a 100 to hit. seems rather high

hob

[Monkey-Boy]

That's a logical place to do some balancing. How about +5 melee power for each of those fighter-exclusive feats?

Maybe for the PL, but that nuts at 5 per feat.

[Ayseifn]

i dont think thats worth it.

you already hit on anything but a 1 and to get a +5 to hit you would need a 100 to hit. seems rather high

hob

Shadows have something weird going on, even with 80+ to hit you'll graze them on normal. There are probably other mobs with sky high ac like them out there too that I can't think of. Also it'd depend on where the % is added, if it's added to the proficiency bonus then it's exactly what it says on the tin, +5% to hit would be 5% more hits.

Dodge bypass is another way to go, don't think there are many mobs with dodge though and the ones that do don't have it very high anyway.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

You are trying to compare a single feat to something that requires 14 levels of Paladin. It would be like saying weapons focus is not as strong as Finger of Death, so FOD should be nerfed because it only needs 13 wizard levels!



This points how circular people get when trying to justify the nerfs. They claim one thing is free and the other is not. 14 fighter is not free, but 14 pali is free. Makes perfect sense, not!

1) holy sword is better melee dps than all of the extra feats you get from 14 levels of fighter. all of them.

2) try reading again. i said if you want to play 14 fighter, then 14 fighter is free. /rcf.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

matching +2 mp/rp added to every +1 dmg and +1 hit feat fighters get would be satisfactory, +25 total would be too much.

change current 18 core to not be a filler point.

add 10 mp to capstone or 18 core.

remove the monk **** from kensei.

do that and i wont even remember what holy sword is.

[Vanhooger]

Tr'd into a sorc, problem solved. Was nice playing pallie for few weeks and have fun with it.

[Neomarica]

1) holy sword is better melee dps than all of the extra feats you get from 14 levels of fighter. all of them.

2) try reading again. i said if you want to play 14 fighter, then 14 fighter is free. /rcf.

If you're only taking fighter for the enhancements/bonus feats/whatever, then the 14 fighter is NOT free.

[IronClan]

You guys who are screaming for nerfs do realize that they are SUPPOSED TO BE MAKING MELEE MORE VIABLE IN DIRECT RESPONSE TO DISCUSSION AND POLLS IN THE CHARACTER BALANCE OFFICIAL THREAD?

This means that Fighters and Rogues are next up... Now what happens if you reduce Paladin DPS right now? Yep you guessed it (I hope) they end up with less head room to buff Fighters and Rogues, Artificers, Clerics and FvS etc.

You're screaming about a situation that is in flux and wont be settled for months. By the end of this Paladins are going to be middle of the pack DPS... except if you get them nerfed.

Unless you want Fighters to get nothing out of this you might want to SHAD-UP and be patient... All this rabble rabble is doing is making the Dev's nervous and less willing to do what was clamored for by the players. As evidenced in the Barb changes... it's nearly unanimous in the Lam threads that they didn't get enough DPS (Especially OS and Rav) to offset the penalty they pay for Rage... why? Because all this rabbling about Paladin's has made the Dev's pull back on the reigns.

[Blackheartox]

You guys who are screaming for nerfs do realize that they are SUPPOSED TO BE MAKING MELEE MORE VIABLE IN DIRECT RESPONSE TO DISCUSSION AND POLLS IN THE CHARACTER BALANCE OFFICIAL THREAD?

This means that Fighters and Rogues are next up... Now what happens if you reduce Paladin DPS right now? Yep you guessed it (I hope) they end up with less head room to buff Fighters and Rogues, Artificers, Clerics and FvS etc.

You're screaming about a situation that is in flux and wont be settled for months. By the end of this Paladins are going to be middle of the pack DPS... except if you get them nerfed.

Unless you want Fighters to get nothing out of this you might want to SHAD-UP and be patient... All this rabble rabble is doing is making the Dev's nervous and less willing to do what was clamored for by the players. As evidenced in the Barb changes... it's nearly unanimous in the Lam threads that they didn't get enough DPS (Especially OS and Rav) to offset the penalty they pay for Rage... why? Because all this rabbling about Paladin's has made the Dev's pull back on the reigns.

But what if, just what if, i mean try to imagine a what if case, where they dont make rebalanced classes top of the pack but try to make them "balanced".

IF you tell me paladin right now is balanced in any case or any way possible and prove that to me i will agree with you.
But it isnt. People who dont agree on that apsolutely do not play melles in elite or any content at all and do not want balance.
Holy sword is to strong, to much power pushed into 1 single spell, that is obvious to any person who has a minimal ammount of iq and has the capability to comprehend read and has been blessed by the ability called eyesight.

Even with a slight nerf that is absolutely required paladin will be top, and will be more balanced

[Chai]

But what if, just what if, i mean try to imagine a what if case, where they dont make rebalanced classes top of the pack but try to make them "balanced".

IF you tell me paladin right now is balanced in any case or any way possible and prove that to me i will agree with you.[/b]
But it isnt. People who dont agree on that apsolutely do not play melles in elite or any content at all and do not want balance.
Holy sword is to strong, to much power pushed into 1 single spell, that is obvious to any person who has a minimal ammount of iq and has the capability to comprehend read and has been blessed by the ability called eyesight.

Even with a slight nerf that is absolutely required paladin will be top, and will be more balanced

More balanced to the here and now, but after all melee got its pass and paladin is bottom of the barrel again, lets cross reference those who asked for the nerf to those who complain about it being a bottom feeder class again.

Ever since casters got FOD in the vale era theres has been panic, hysteria, and cats and dogs living together after every update where a class became more powerful where some continually claim its OP and demand nerfs. A few updates later, new content comes out and new PRE happen which brings everything else back into line.

Those requesting nerfs after (and many times before) updates make it to live are living in the here and now only, and refuse to look ahead and see the big picture. What the devs should do is put off all nerfs until all melee and ranged passes are complete, then rebalance one last time for all. If at that time paladin needs a nerf, then and only then implement it.

[Blackheartox]

More balanced to the here and now, but after all melee got its pass and paladin is bottom of the barrel again, lets cross reference those who asked for the nerf to those who complain about it being a bottom feeder class again.

Ever since casters got FOD in the vale era theres has been panic, hysteria, and cats and dogs living together after every update where a class became more powerful where some continually claim its OP and demand nerfs. A few updates later, new content comes out and new PRE happen which brings everything else back into line.

Those requesting nerfs after (and many times before) updates make it to live are living in the here and now only, and refuse to look ahead and see the big picture. What the devs should do is put off all nerfs until all melee and ranged passes are complete, then rebalance one last time for all. If at that time paladin needs a nerf, then and only then implement it.

Ok, lets look at it this way.
IF, lets imagine IF palie stays as it is.
You would need to balance fighter and rogue for example by giving it similiar powers, BUT issue is they cannot get same, it will be made so that they gain more, thus palie not being op but being lowest in chain again, yet still being op.
You get what im saying?
Balancing other classes around something that is overpowered will only bring us even more broken things that are even more beyond op.
And the pendelum will swing so that they will just jump from class to class making rogue op, fighter op, then monk again op, then bard op, then maybe barb op, then palie op again.
Current pass with armor up gave to much to melles alrdy, that alone should be nerfed as well.
Implementing ranged power will give to much to ranged, i dont even want to imagine how monkchery will be when they get 3 ranged power per level or ranged power in ranger cores or whatever.
That is me looking forward and beyond the current i love palie let me have broken op palies fun, i dont have any attachments to any specific class, only minor hate toward bards /and that hate somewhat resulted that they are good now since i made bazilion posts to delete that class or remove it from ddo in past years.

You should tell me honestly, do you think current implementation of holy sword is balanced?
Do you think if they dont nerf it, that they wont make other classes as well beyond broken?
Do you think we need "more" power to complete ee content?

I managed to teach my 6 year old nephew to solo some ee content on my account.
This game alrdy is to easy, we do not need more easy buttons, we need challenge and nerfing so that every player has something to look forward to.
To actually have a reason to tr/etr

And yes i am screaming for nerfs, because i am looking forward

[EllisDee37]

IF, lets imagine IF palie stays as it is.
You would need to balance fighter and rogue for example by giving it similiar powers, BUT issue is they cannot get same, it will be made so that they gain more, thus palie not being op but being lowest in chain again, yet still being op.That's quite a leap you made there.

[Qhualor]

Even with the change to Holy Sword, Paladins still got their buff across the board and their DPS will still be in the top tier. I don't think it needed to be changed, but leave it to the forums to call this some kind of huge nerf or some other absurdity.

[jalont]

That's a logical place to do some balancing. How about +5 melee power for each of those fighter-exclusive feats?

Ugh, just no. We're trying to stop power creep. The way to bring things back into balance is to nerf the overpowered things! Not buff other things to bring them in-line with other overpowered things.

[Forzah]

More balanced to the here and now, but after all melee got its pass and paladin is bottom of the barrel again, lets cross reference those who asked for the nerf to those who complain about it being a bottom feeder class again.

Ever since casters got FOD in the vale era theres has been panic, hysteria, and cats and dogs living together after every update where a class became more powerful where some continually claim its OP and demand nerfs. A few updates later, new content comes out and new PRE happen which brings everything else back into line.

Those requesting nerfs after (and many times before) updates make it to live are living in the here and now only, and refuse to look ahead and see the big picture. What the devs should do is put off all nerfs until all melee and ranged passes are complete, then rebalance one last time for all. If at that time paladin needs a nerf, then and only then implement it.

If you consistently follow the following rules you never have to consider the effect of a future pass:
-If the performance of a class is too good compared to the level of content, nerf that class.
-When you perform a pass of a class, don't make it (much) stronger than the current best class.

There is no need at all to consider the "big picture". All that is needed is doing the pass of a class carefully.

[bsquishwizzy]

Ok, lets look at it this way.
IF, lets imagine IF palie stays as it is.
You would need to balance fighter and rogue for example by giving it similiar powers, BUT issue is they cannot get same, it will be made so that they gain more, thus palie not being op but being lowest in chain again, yet still being op.


Maybe I’m missing something here, but even the squishiest rogue, if properly played, is a frickin’ killing machine. Aside from the idiotic aggro mods they made to the game (which only need to be tweaked a bit to fix), there is absolutely no reason to have to “fix” rogues.

And fighters? The only problem with them is that Kensai sucks for pure. Works fine for monk splashes.

I do not buy these arguments.

I’ll say it again: the only thing they needed to change with paladins was making Holy Sword worth using (which they’ve done), and bumping the damage on smite…maybe extending Zeal and Angelskin. But that was about it. But things are what they are.

Holy sword should be left as is. You want to modify it, make the +1[W] apply to monsters of evil alignment (which I think is a good compromise), and you’ll be set.

For all of the bellyaching here, the +2 holy bonus doesn’t add much at all to each hit, so there is no need to knock that down. Leave it as is.

[jalont]

Maybe I’m missing something here, but even the squishiest rogue, if properly played, is a frickin’ killing machine. Aside from the idiotic aggro mods they made to the game (which only need to be tweaked a bit to fix), there is absolutely no reason to have to “fix” rogues.

And fighters? The only problem with them is that Kensai sucks for pure. Works fine for monk splashes.

I do not buy these arguments.

I’ll say it again: the only thing they needed to change with paladins was making Holy Sword worth using (which they’ve done), and bumping the damage on smite…maybe extending Zeal and Angelskin. But that was about it. But things are what they are.

Holy sword should be left as is. You want to modify it, make the +1[W] apply to monsters of evil alignment (which I think is a good compromise), and you’ll be set.

For all of the bellyaching here, the +2 holy bonus doesn’t add much at all to each hit, so there is no need to knock that down. Leave it as is.

We've ran the tests. Pally currently has the highest melee DPS in game. They also have the best defenses. They also have the best innate healing.

You really are making no sense. Can a centered Kensai get "almost" as high DPS? Yes. But Pally still comes out ahead, and in order to get this almost as good dps, they give away a lot of defense by having to wear robes to remain centered. Pallies are out of balance with other classes. This is problem number one. The fact that people are trying to say that they aren't is just silly, and I'm not sure if they're just forum players only or if they're just trolling. But it's demonstrably false. This isn't a matter of opinion. If you state that paladins are not OP compared to other classes, you're simply wrong. The second problem is that pallies are out of balance compared to game content. That means that buffing everything else will not solve the problem. This leaves one option.

Nerf Paladins.

[Blackheartox]

We've ran the tests. Pally currently has the highest melee DPS in game. They also have the best defenses. They also have the best innate healing.

You really are making no sense. Can a centered Kensai get "almost" as high DPS? Yes. But Pally still comes out ahead, and in order to get this almost as good dps, they give away a lot of defense by having to wear robes to remain centered. Pallies are out of balance with other classes. This is problem number one. The fact that people are trying to say that they aren't is just silly, and I'm not sure if they're just forum players only or if they're just trolling. But it's demonstrably false. This isn't a matter of opinion. If you state that paladins are not OP compared to other classes, you're simply wrong. The second problem is that pallies are out of balance compared to game content. That means that buffing everything else will not solve the problem. This leaves one option.

Nerf Paladins.

Yep, nerf em hard, nerf em fast, nerf em where it hurts the most.
They will still be one of top melle, but not as broken as they are currently

[Inoukchuk]

Maybe for the PL, but that nuts at 5 per feat.

I made these recommendations about a month ago:

"Weapon Focus: gain +5% to hit chance
Greater Weapon Focus: Re-roll 1s on attack rolls with chosen weapon (must take second roll)
Superior Weapon Focus: Natural roll of 19 is treated as natural 20 with chosen weapon

Weapon Specialization: +2 damage and +2 melee power with chosen weapon
Greater Weapon Specialization: additional +2 damage and +2 melee power with chosen weapon

Manyshot - shares a timer with 10k stars

Augment Summoning: Your summoned creatures, charmed minions, and hirelings have +4 to all ability scores, increased health, and increased fortification. They also gain MRR/PRR/dodge/melee power = to your character level and universal spell power = 2* your character level"

So, the WF line gains re-roll 1s and vorpal on 19... I could see improving that further by adding 2% DS and 2 MP to each tier. Or maybe 1% DS, 1 MP, 1% dodge, +1 max dodge (to represent parrying with weapon). This would enhance fighters to be more competitive again. These feats have enormous pre-reqs (16 ftr levels AND great weap spec?!) and as such should be a little more powerful that other regular feats rather than totally worthless. Weapon specialization used to be a great feat, but damage has gotten so huge now that +4 is no longer very attractive, whereas +4 MP always scales.

[BD_]

That specific boss is an outlier because it has an extremely anti-melee mechanic in the electric DOTs.



Again, examples. Holy Sword outperforms every other effect that modifies crit profile.



People only do that for completionist reasons, people who actually do that for "gee I really need another +1 to damage, then I can solo EE What Goes Up" are dumb.



New blood? Lol? Are we actually doing this? Put this into perspective: when I joined, guilds did not have a level. The level cap would not have have been increased past 20 for another two and a half years; I probably capped a good couple dozen alts/TRs before that happened. Go ****talk the 2013/2014 guys all you want, but I know a thing or two.



My pure 20 rogue has soloed EE Lines of Supply and I can most definitely say I do not have as much survivability or DPS as a well-built Paladin.

And again, Miior basically can't be meleed in EE.

No fail 72+ evasion save makes EE Miior a total joke...

[firemedium_jt]

I just don't understand why Holy Sword spell applies to neutrals and good also.

Most Pally buffs should be against Evil only.

Paladins should be the biggest melee threat to evil.

Neutrals and Good not so much compared to Barbarians and Fighters.

[arkonas]

I and others disagree. Please check on fighter in Defender. Then you can also look at Miior. Go tank her with a paladin. Don't think that is a good idea? Think its better to range her instead? Well, you are right. Just TANK her with a moncher in robes. Miior doesn't seem to agree with your assessment that paladins have the best defense.



How many Vanguards have that crit profile? NONE!

This is more of the same old junk. You pick the f'n ESOS and use it as the reason to nerf stuff. The only result of that is the ESOS is still top dog and will be viable for a paladin and watch the B.Sword and D.Axe users say a screw it... again...

If the problem is the ESOS or the Falchion, change them. (But I don't think they are really an issue either.)

Because he knows its not marginal.
TF bastard sword 1d10+1 loss per swing (the multiply that loss across crit.)
Now consider that Vanguards are likely to take shield feats over cleaves and run in DC over LD. So double strike will be high and very high during the epic moment. This further inflates the affect of this on Vanguards (from the high attack rate) and not nearly as much on THFs. (TWFs are already screwed, so I don't know how to help them.)

Some how people were able to see past the god-like Cetus builds and realize that the 0.1% crowd should not be rationale for nerfs to the other 99.9%. I've not played a THF paladin recently, so maybe it is god-like also, but even if it is, Vanguard is just good enough to play it and not be something else. Intimidate was nerfed a long time ago. Even with intimate and +125% threat I occasionally find mobs will wander off. What is going to happen when we loose damage?

I'm all for helping fighters get a boost. See Oxhammers idea about putting melee power in the focus and spec feats. I think that is great. We be adding another option instead of taking options away...

Isn't the Paladin supposed to be an iconic part of D&D? Do you all even want people to play them? The reason to splash is going away and as stuff like this is pushed through the only reason to play them with be BF THF with ESOS or TF. Is that really the intent here?

what are you complaining about? my vanguard paladin uses thunderforged bastard swords. with holy sword 15-20 in divine crusader 13-20. crit range. do you think i really care they are reducing it by 1 enhancement and i lose the 1 w. i don't. i still will love my paladin. vanguard, changes to sacred defender and armor have made him worth playing. oh noes miior is one mob in the entire game that gives me trouble darn it what will i do right? please shut up. i wished there were more mobs like her honestly. i want to get my butt kicked. when i fight her i have to play smart not just sit there and pew pew away. my friend and i would trade aggro on her. both paladins. we would take what we could and back away. we killed her.

if you think my dps is going down the toilet because they reduced it a little then there is something wrong with you. i do just fine. im happy with my build. there are a lot of builds out there that do need to be adjusted. some still need love. lets just leave it at that.

[redoubt]

We've ran the tests. Pally currently has the highest melee DPS in game. They also have the best defenses. They also have the best innate healing.

You really are making no sense. Can a centered Kensai get "almost" as high DPS? Yes. But Pally still comes out ahead, and in order to get this almost as good dps, they give away a lot of defense by having to wear robes to remain centered. Pallies are out of balance with other classes. This is problem number one. The fact that people are trying to say that they aren't is just silly, and I'm not sure if they're just forum players only or if they're just trolling. But it's demonstrably false. This isn't a matter of opinion. If you state that paladins are not OP compared to other classes, you're simply wrong. The second problem is that pallies are out of balance compared to game content. That means that buffing everything else will not solve the problem. This leaves one option.

Nerf Paladins.

Which ONE build has all three? Or are you saying that a

Fully spec'd dps THF heavy in KOTC in LD is best dps.

Fully spec'd Defender in US best defense.

Some other combo in DC is best healing.

[redoubt]

i made these recommendations about a month ago:

"weapon focus: Gain +5% to hit chance
greater weapon focus: Re-roll 1s on attack rolls with chosen weapon (must take second roll)
superior weapon focus: Natural roll of 19 is treated as natural 20 with chosen weapon

weapon specialization: +2 damage and +2 melee power with chosen weapon
greater weapon specialization: Additional +2 damage and +2 melee power with chosen weapon

manyshot - shares a timer with 10k stars

augment summoning: Your summoned creatures, charmed minions, and hirelings have +4 to all ability scores, increased health, and increased fortification. They also gain mrr/prr/dodge/melee power = to your character level and universal spell power = 2* your character level"

so, the wf line gains re-roll 1s and vorpal on 19... I could see improving that further by adding 2% ds and 2 mp to each tier. Or maybe 1% ds, 1 mp, 1% dodge, +1 max dodge (to represent parrying with weapon). This would enhance fighters to be more competitive again. These feats have enormous pre-reqs (16 ftr levels and great weap spec?!) and as such should be a little more powerful that other regular feats rather than totally worthless. Weapon specialization used to be a great feat, but damage has gotten so huge now that +4 is no longer very attractive, whereas +4 mp always scales.

ok.

[redoubt]

what are you complaining about? my vanguard paladin uses thunderforged bastard swords. with holy sword 15-20 in divine crusader 13-20. crit range. do you think i really care they are reducing it by 1 enhancement and i lose the 1 w. i don't. i still will love my paladin. vanguard, changes to sacred defender and armor have made him worth playing. oh noes miior is one mob in the entire game that gives me trouble darn it what will i do right? please shut up. i wished there were more mobs like her honestly. i want to get my butt kicked. when i fight her i have to play smart not just sit there and pew pew away. my friend and i would trade aggro on her. both paladins. we would take what we could and back away. we killed her.

if you think my dps is going down the toilet because they reduced it a little then there is something wrong with you. i do just fine. im happy with my build. there are a lot of builds out there that do need to be adjusted. some still need love. lets just leave it at that.

1. Drop the personal attacks. Everyone here is very interested in promoting the game. We just have different opinions of how to it. Argue all you want, but do make personal attacks.

2. In addition to arguing my point, I'm continuing to test with my vanguard in game. I'm using things I'm learning in this thread an others to see how they work and if my position needs to change. For example, I've tried EE lines a supply a few more times. I had another instance where there were so many spawns that the instance stopped responding. Again, I had to force quit the client and log into another character and then back again. I also found that running Nightmare instead of tier 2 TF was better for me. I was taking too much damage and could not stay in the consecration circle because the mobs moved too much. I had to switch from healing with consecration to healing with vampirism. (Cocoon and LOH were part of both schemes.)

3. This make me wonder if Mortal Fear is assumed as the weapon being used. The boss was not the problem for me. I could stand in consecration and use nightmare and beat him down. It was a lack of speed in killing the trash of all things that gave me trouble. In the end, I missed ONE supply carrying gnoll (I just couldn't run fast enough to catch him after I got held once.) I've heard that it is the best trash killer in the game. So maybe I don't think Paladin is as stupid overpowered as others do because I don't have Mortal Fear?

[Blackheartox]

Which ONE build has all three? Or are you saying that a

Fully spec'd dps THF heavy in KOTC in LD is best dps.

Fully spec'd Defender in US best defense.

Some other combo in DC is best healing.

Al 3 work best as paladin now.
And as i know we are talking about palie being op, right?

A fully specd thf kotc will have best dps and defense amongs all 2hander builds
A fully specd defender will have best offense and defense amongst tank builds
A dc crusader combo works best as palie.

Notice something?

[kumagnificent]

Al 3 work best as paladin now.
And as i know we are talking about palie being op, right?

A fully specd thf kotc will have best dps and defense amongs all 2hander builds
A fully specd defender will have best offense and defense amongst tank builds
A dc crusader combo works best as palie.

Notice something?

You know - I don't like it when people ask for nerfs. It's the forumer's version of "HIS TOY IS BETTER THAN MINE AND I WANT YOU TO TAKE HIS TOY AWAY."

Why not improve upon the toy (build) that you have, instead of asking to break other's toys?

I wish that rogues were better - yet I do not ask that other classes be worse. What I do is arm myself with what I can (potions, wands, scrolls, and a hireling that can rezz) and I go my merry way trying to backstab that freakin' air elemental.


Back to the OP - is there any confirmation to the Holy Sword nerf?

[BDog77]

Back to the OP - is there any confirmation to the Holy Sword nerf?

Read the thread, Severlin confirmed it, loss of +1[W] and +1 enhancement bonus.

[jalont]

You know - I don't like it when people ask for nerfs. It's the forumer's version of "HIS TOY IS BETTER THAN MINE AND I WANT YOU TO TAKE HIS TOY AWAY."

Why not improve upon the toy (build) that you have, instead of asking to break other's toys?

I wish that rogues were better - yet I do not ask that other classes be worse. What I do is arm myself with what I can (potions, wands, scrolls, and a hireling that can rezz) and I go my merry way trying to backstab that freakin' air elemental.


Back to the OP - is there any confirmation to the Holy Sword nerf?

LOL, gross.

Those of us asking for nerfs in this thread are people that TR at least every three days. We aren't crying because "someone else's toy is better than ours". We would simply tr after three days into that toy and rock it better than most people.

Please.

The problem is an overall balance with the game. The game is getting too easy. Incredibly easy. Guess what this means? Enjoy the 1 billion HP trash in the future with its 500 saves. OR let's get the problem under control now instead of making it worse and nerf the overpowered builds that break the current and future game.

[bennyson]

Al 3 work best as paladin now.
And as i know we are talking about palie being op, right?

A fully specd thf kotc will have best dps and defense amongs all 2hander builds
A fully specd defender will have best offense and defense amongst tank builds
A dc crusader combo works best as palie.

Notice something?

So your complaining that med-core, mostly Pure Paladin players have better DPS builds than your Expert Custom Splash/Exploit class and you want a nerf on them because you don't think that's right?

I laugh at your petty attempts.

[kumagnificent]

Read the thread, Severlin confirmed it, loss of +1[W] and +1 enhancement bonus.

It was a pretty long thread to look through, in the midst of the "nerf paladins" argument.


To the other guy:
So - which is it, is the game too easy or is it getting too hard? Make up your mind, dude. You're saying the game now is too easy and... you don't want it to get too hard?

[jalont]

So your complaining that med-core, mostly Pure Paladin players have better DPS builds than your Expert Custom Splash/Exploit class and you want a nerf on them because you don't think that's right?

I laugh at your petty attempts.

He's asked for nerfs of his exploit wolf as well. Please.

[jalont]

It was a pretty long thread to look through, in the midst of the "nerf paladins" argument.


To the other guy:
So - which is it, is the game too easy or is it getting too hard? Make up your mind, dude. You're saying the game now is too easy and... you don't want it to get too hard?

LOL what?

[axel15810]

You know - I don't like it when people ask for nerfs. It's the forumer's version of "HIS TOY IS BETTER THAN MINE AND I WANT YOU TO TAKE HIS TOY AWAY."


As above post said, this isn't it. It's about game balance. Game balance is important for a variety of reasons (see the character balance thread in official discussions for a complete list). You can't solve every imbalance through power creep. Nerfs are simply the most efficient/fastest/easiest way to balance the game.

Just because devs make a class better doesn't mean they are no longer entitled to to take a bit of it back if they feel the boost was excessive. This is the case with paladins. They made them better because they were not balanced, and now they will give them a small nerf for the exact same reason. I know it is annoying to have your favorite class nerfed, but devs are trying to balance the game.

And don't worry, Devs just confirmed earlier in this thread that the crit boost isn't being removed -


Holy Sword will keep its critical changes. It will drop the enhancement bonus down to +1 and it will lose the +1[W]. Paladin DPS is slightly overperforming where we want it to be. (Honestly the spell is still great; the +1[W] was gratuitous.)



Player feedback has overwhelmingly indicated that adjustments to changes should happen sooner rather than later when it needs to be done. Players will probably be seeing a lot of tuning as we balance the classes.

Sev~

[kumagnificent]

The game is getting too easy. Incredibly easy. Guess what this means? Enjoy the 1 billion HP trash in the future with its 500 saves.

This.
getting too easy = 1 billion hp trash in the future

Can you recall the game becoming incredibly hard following a buff given a certain class?

[kumagnificent]

As above post said, this isn't it. It's about game balance. Game balance is important for a variety of reasons (see the character balance thread in official discussions for a complete list). You can't solve every imbalance through power creep. Nerfs are simply the most efficient/fastest/easiest way to balance the game.

Just because devs make a class better doesn't mean they to take a bit of it back if they feel the boost was excessive. This is the case with paladins.

And don't worry, Devs just confirmed earlier in this thread that the crit boost isn't being removed -

So... I see these SWF wolf-form druids around doing massive, and I mean MASSIVE, damage. Much more than any paladin. How is this "game balance" when a +2 enhancement and +W spell is given priority over SWF wolves?

[jalont]

This.
getting too easy = 1 billion hp trash in the future

Can you recall the game becoming incredibly hard following a buff given a certain class?

The only time I can remember a time which has handed out so much player power (here's a hint, this isn't just about paladin, we're seeing round after round of buffs to player power) was introduction of EDs and the enhancement pass, and yes, both lead to astronomical power creep.

And the is besides the point. The game is too easy. We can't add more challenge by making the game easier. That's just silly.

[jalont]

So... I see these SWF wolf-form druids around doing massive, and I mean MASSIVE, damage. Much more than any paladin. How is this "game balance" when a +2 enhancement and +W spell is given priority over SWF wolves?

These wolves are using multiple broken mechanics which the devs have just yesteray assured us would be getting fixed. There is no reason to balance any other class against them.

[kumagnificent]

The only time I can remember a time which has handed out so much player power (here's a hint, this isn't just about paladin, we're seeing round after round of buffs to player power) was introduction of EDs and the enhancement pass, and yes, both lead to astronomical power creep.

And the is besides the point. The game is too easy. We can't add more challenge by making the game easier. That's just silly.

Power creep? You mean after the introduction of epic hard and epic elite and content above level 20? When the enhancement pass ALSO applied to mobs (RWTD eladrin spamming 300 damage lasers)?

Hey. I'd like it if the kobolds become more powerful, too; however, you have to look at it as if you did not have all your past lives and all your twink gear. Look at it from the point of view of a lowly level 2 cha-based fighter, getting his second peek at the fearful kobold shaman - that leaps into the air (and floats there), casting doom-bestow curse-lightning bolt combo at you.

[Qhualor]

Power creep? You mean after the introduction of epic hard and epic elite and content above level 20? When the enhancement pass ALSO applied to mobs (RWTD eladrin spamming 300 damage lasers)?

Hey. I'd like it if the kobolds become more powerful, too; however, you have to look at it as if you did not have all your past lives and all your twink gear. Look at it from the point of view of a lowly level 2 cha-based fighter, getting his second peek at the fearful kobold shaman - that leaps into the air (and floats there), casting doom-bestow curse-lightning bolt combo at you.

That's why there is hard and normal difficulties. If a fighter is level 2 investing in Cha as a main stat, he will certainly have trouble against not just kobolds, but also against epic rats.

[depositbox]

That's why there is hard and normal difficulties. If a fighter is level 2 investing in Cha as a main stat, he will certainly have trouble against not just kobolds, but also against epic rats.

Has to be better than barbs using cure pots in lords of dust. right?

[Chai]

If you consistently follow the following rules you never have to consider the effect of a future pass:
-If the performance of a class is too good compared to the level of content, nerf that class.
-When you perform a pass of a class, don't make it (much) stronger than the current best class.

There is no need at all to consider the "big picture". All that is needed is doing the pass of a class carefully.

False. There is very much a need to consider the big picture which includes future plans for new content and passes on other PRE/classes. Your second rule is not accurate. If you use the current best entity as a limitation, you leave little to no headroom for improving anything else. The biggest mistake Turbine made which serves as a great example here is the eSOS. Entered the game in 2009, and took them 5 years to put in something better. That entity was a limitation they obviously did not want to surpass, and the rest of THF suffered for it for a long time because of that one single best weapon.

You are also reinforcing, with your second rule, the very thing I pointed out earlier - which is that people grow accustomed to the DPS food chain, and don't like it changed.

If you want the next few iterations of melee passes to be significant, you need to leave the devs some headroom to design the involved classes to be better than they currently are. If you constantly demand nerfs after every update which changes the DPS class pecking order, that headroom will not exist. Im seeing this currently with barbarian already, as people are commenting that their DPS is not enough. Why? Because people hit the panic button when bards and then paladins were redesigned, with no consideration given to what fighters, rogues, and barbarians would look like after their pass. The resulting nerfs shrank the headroom available for barbarians to grow in.

[kumagnificent]

The only time I can remember a time which has handed out so much player power (here's a hint, this isn't just about paladin, we're seeing round after round of buffs to player power) was introduction of EDs and the enhancement pass, and yes, both lead to astronomical power creep.

And the is besides the point. The game is too easy. We can't add more challenge by making the game easier. That's just silly.


That's why there is hard and normal difficulties. If a fighter is level 2 investing in Cha as a main stat, he will certainly have trouble against not just kobolds, but also against epic rats.

The cha-based level 2 fighter plans on using diplomacy to deal with said epic rats.

[kumagnificent]

Has to be better than barbs using cure pots in lords of dust. right?

+1 :D :D :D

And they were cure moderate wounds, too.

My little cha-based level 2 fighter is now considering going for a few paladin levels. My sword shall be as shiny as the gleam in yonder dragon's eye as it grins wickedly at me as if deciding to roast me before or after biting me in half.

[axel15810]

So... I see these SWF wolf-form druids around doing massive, and I mean MASSIVE, damage. Much more than any paladin. How is this "game balance" when a +2 enhancement and +W spell is given priority over SWF wolves?

Devs never said Druids didn't need fixing. Devs plan to get to them after Favored Souls, dev post below. They can't fix everything at once.

They're doing the pally fix first since it's easy and is more or less a final touch on the pally pass. The Druid pass they'll do later because it's going to be a big project.


Fixing Druid is a large project. Druid forms definitely need addressing, and that's a complex change that will require tech to do correctly. We will probably do a Druid revamp with a much needed third tree after we finish the third Favored Soul tree. At that time Druid forms and Druid trees will be examined.

Sev~

[BDog77]

My problem with this nerf is I really don't think they should do anything, and I mean ANYTHING, to turn EE back into the incredibly LOOOOONG snoozefest it used to be. It's still a snoozefest, but at least it doesn't take as long now.

BTW, I certainly don't think they have done enough for Barbs in this pass. Drop all this healing carp and give em +10MP scaling to +250MP at EE when raged. Kill or be killed, simple.

[FestusHood]

If you want the next few iterations of melee passes to be significant, you need to leave the devs some headroom to design the involved classes to be better than they currently are. If you constantly demand nerfs after every update which changes the DPS class pecking order, that headroom will not exist. Im seeing this currently with barbarian already, as people are commenting that their DPS is not enough. Why? Because people hit the panic button when bards and then paladins were redesigned, with no consideration given to what fighters, rogues, and barbarians would look like after their pass. The resulting nerfs shrank the headroom available for barbarians to grow in.

If they are going to nerf something, it's much better to do it early rather than late. The idea of letting it ride for a while, even though they know it needs adjusting will just lead to further gnashing of teeth when the nerf finally does come.

You talk about leaving them headroom for future adjustments. If the community demands that under no circumstances can they ever adjust an ability downward, what kind of headroom does that leave? Seems to me this would force them to be quite conservative in what power they add knowing that if they boost something too much, they are stuck with it, because they can never fine tune it. Fine tuning requires being able to adjust down as well as up.

[axel15810]

BTW, I certainly don't think they have done enough for Barbs in this pass.

Agreed. Still no good reason to put up with all those Rage penalties.

[Soleran100]

All that really mattered for holy sword was keeping the crit mods.

Everyone else that is crying over power creep while enjoying the benefits of said "creep" are just whining.

Paladins will still be in great shape even with a little nerf to holy sword.

[arkonas]

1. Drop the personal attacks. Everyone here is very interested in promoting the game. We just have different opinions of how to it. Argue all you want, but do make personal attacks.

2. In addition to arguing my point, I'm continuing to test with my vanguard in game. I'm using things I'm learning in this thread an others to see how they work and if my position needs to change. For example, I've tried EE lines a supply a few more times. I had another instance where there were so many spawns that the instance stopped responding. Again, I had to force quit the client and log into another character and then back again. I also found that running Nightmare instead of tier 2 TF was better for me. I was taking too much damage and could not stay in the consecration circle because the mobs moved too much. I had to switch from healing with consecration to healing with vampirism. (Cocoon and LOH were part of both schemes.)

3. This make me wonder if Mortal Fear is assumed as the weapon being used. The boss was not the problem for me. I could stand in consecration and use nightmare and beat him down. It was a lack of speed in killing the trash of all things that gave me trouble. In the end, I missed ONE supply carrying gnoll (I just couldn't run fast enough to catch him after I got held once.) I've heard that it is the best trash killer in the game. So maybe I don't think Paladin is as stupid overpowered as others do because I don't have Mortal Fear?


lol never once did i attack you personally. lol i just said what is wrong with you. you acted like the threat range of a bastard sword was nothing. i was just saying mine is 13-20 in divine crusader with holy sword. i also mentioned i use vanguard and sacred defender is my main tree tier 5. so i go up to tier 4 in vanguard for offense. i run epic elite and i love it. sure my toons struggles in some because he doesn't have a ton of tr lives or epic. nor does he have a ton of gear either. I just wanted to point that out.

2. yes i struggled as well and there we some ee's that were overwhelming me even though i had 269 prr and 149 mrr.

3. i don't have mortal fear on any of my toons. heck let me say none of my thunderforged are tier 3. only tier 2. i haven't ran enough of the raids to get the tier 3 together just yet.

4. this has nothing to do with anything you said. I do know some of my friends who have rolled paladins and loved it while a few i saw still struggle with them. so the veterans will always shine with whatever comes about compared to my casual friends who i saw dying in just stormhorns slayer area. she was a 2 handed paladin pure. she had knight of chalice and tier 4 in sacred defender for the defense boosts. people tend to forget skill level has a HUGE difference in toons between a vet and new/casual player. the only ones i really see complaining are the vets who are usually more skilled then others anyways. so one small change to a spell isn't going to make pallies the worst dps. they will still dps, defense and heal. I still don't see them failing just because of one thing.

[arkonas]

If they are going to nerf something, it's much better to do it early rather than late. The idea of letting it ride for a while, even though they know it needs adjusting will just lead to further gnashing of teeth when the nerf finally does come.

You talk about leaving them headroom for future adjustments. If the community demands that under no circumstances can they ever adjust an ability downward, what kind of headroom does that leave? Seems to me this would force them to be quite conservative in what power they add knowing that if they boost something too much, they are stuck with it, because they can never fine tune it. Fine tuning requires being able to adjust down as well as up.

this is the way i feel i want them to adjust now then later. even if it was later i bet people would still complain about it. no matter when it is. there will be rage like its was meant to be or just because your taking away their fun. lol. im all about balance and be able to play any class or multiclass. we should all be able to have fun. all toons should be able to work in ee. if you're in heavy armor it should be at a reduced rate. if you choose to go evasion then get dodge, high reflex, etc to mitigate the damage. that is the price we will pay when we play a toon. you have to give up something while doing others.


honestly as we get more powerful i do expect the monsters to get as powerful, smarter, using tactics or even tricks. its like this in all games. any rpg any mmo.

[kumagnificent]

I sense a disturbance in the Force...

Also, the nerf is not as bad as it seems, methinks. Just a little nitpicky - why isn't Holy SWORD not restricted to being cast only on SWORDS?

[IronClan]

Ugh, just no. We're trying to stop power creep. The way to bring things back into balance is to nerf the overpowered things! Not buff other things to bring them in-line with other overpowered things.

You might have missed it but a few months ago a large segment of the player base was pretty adamant that Melee is too weak compared to the incoming damage they face, and the output of builds like Furyshot and most Casters, who deal with far less incoming damage yet can deal higher DPS. This prompted a poll and guess what? Bard, Paladin and Barbarian were considered the weakest classes... But don't stop and stare at those "trees" just yet, or you might miss the forest: Fighters, Rogues (and I forget the order but you get the idea) Arty's, FvS, Clerics etc. are on also on it...

Powercreep... powercreep is a boogie man made up by players who fear change and don't realize that MMO developers are actually INTENTIONALLY "creeping" power at all times and with deliberate schedules to keep their MMO's from becoming stale and sedentary.

[jalont]

You might have missed it but a few months ago a large segment of the player base was pretty adamant that Melee is too weak compared to the incoming damage they face, and the output of builds like Furyshot and most Casters, who deal with far less incoming damage yet can deal higher DPS. This prompted a poll and guess what? Bard, Paladin and Barbarian were considered the weakest classes... But don't stop and stair at those "trees" just yet, or you might miss the forest: Fighters, Rogues (and I forget the order but you get the idea) Arty's, FvS, Clerics etc. are on also on it...

Powercreep... powercreep is a boogie man made up by players who fear change and don't realize that MMO developers are actually INTENTIONALLY "creeping" power at all times and with deliberate schedules to keep their MMO's from becoming stale and sedentary.

I fully believe that the devs are purposely casualizing the game in order to go to a full p2w model, and I agree that most people here are welcoming that with open arms.

I don't, and I won't.

Paladin DPS doesn't need to be the best in-game. The PRR/MRR changes were enough to completely invalidate monchers. Why build a silly kiting/moderate DPS toon when you can be a paladin that stand in the middle of EE mobs and never falls below half health? And that's without the DPS changes.

Yes, casters needed to be nerfed. It made no sense that they had the best dps/defenses/full self healing... and guess what, it doesn't make sense that Pallies do now, either. We're playing whack-a-mole. We aren't fixing anything. A nerf to casters would have fixed the problem, not just moving the problem (which wasn't that casters was so great, it was that a couple of classes were so powerful) to a new class. That's just silly.

[Blackheartox]

So your complaining that med-core, mostly Pure Paladin players have better DPS builds than your Expert Custom Splash/Exploit class and you want a nerf on them because you don't think that's right?

I laugh at your petty attempts.

What i wrote on first page of this thread:

Several things that should be done in ddo:

1. Nerf holy sword, make it multiselector since its stupid that 1 free spells is more useful then 42 points spent into other trees of other classes

2. Fix druid styles, its really stupid to play a swf 2 weap fight druid since it really is op

3. Fix tree form, aka give it less dps, since at its current state it is incredibly broken once you figure how to get enough spirit

4. Dont make barbs overpowered

5. Fix sneak and enemy ai detection so that assasins can do what they are suposed to do, assasinate, never understood why the quests shouldnt be sneak completable

6. Nerf swasc builds, bards should never be on top dps, they should do something of everything but not be top in most

I can add many many more but those are highest priority on my list.

Also nerf dc casting /yes im playing a sorc and i want a nerf for myself since it is utterly stupidly strong

[firemedium_jt]

Keep the [w] against everything cause pally needs it, but the critical should be evil only.

[IronClan]

I've ran numbers that disagree by as much as 300 DPS. Paladins are king right now bards are second place in general, this change will not change that though it will bring the number down.

Its a good change but not enough, IMO.

Show the numbers, don't make empty claims. I assume your numbers accounted for Sonic damage procs with full SP and crits? I'd like to see them, looking at it I'm not sure how you touch those sonic procs done at 30% faster alacrity.

[FestusHood]

What i wrote on first page of this thread:

Several things that should be done in ddo:

1. Nerf holy sword, make it multiselector since its stupid that 1 free spells is more useful then 42 points spent into other trees of other classes

2. Fix druid styles, its really stupid to play a swf 2 weap fight druid since it really is op

3. Fix tree form, aka give it less dps, since at its current state it is incredibly broken once you figure how to get enough spirit

4. Dont make barbs overpowered

5. Fix sneak and enemy ai detection so that assasins can do what they are suposed to do, assasinate, never understood why the quests shouldnt be sneak completable

6. Nerf swasc builds, bards should never be on top dps, they should do something of everything but not be top in most

I can add many many more but those are highest priority on my list.

Also nerf dc casting /yes im playing a sorc and i want a nerf for myself since it is utterly stupidly strong

You are the one who stated in the other thread about tr vs. alts that you prefer to make one super toon rather than a bunch of gimps. No offense, but in my opinion, you, and others like you are the worst people to advocate for what the overall difficulty of the game should be.

You complain about these broken builds but you have in fact played all of them. You went out of your way to make them overpowered. You remind me of somebody who got fat eating cake arguing that nobody should be able to have cake. Self control maybe?

[jalont]

You are the one who stated in the other thread about tr vs. alts that you prefer to make one super toon rather than a bunch of gimps. No offense, but in my opinion, you, and others like you are the worst people to advocate for what the overall difficulty of the game should be.

You complain about these broken builds but you have in fact played all of them. You went out of your way to make them overpowered. You remind me of somebody who got fat eating cake arguing that nobody should be able to have cake. Self control maybe?

We have every right to advocate for one difficulty setting being designed around our playstyle, even if it offends all the selfish people that demand every single difficulty setting being designed around themselves.

[Blackheartox]

You are the one who stated in the other thread about tr vs. alts that you prefer to make one super toon rather than a bunch of gimps. No offense, but in my opinion, you, and others like you are the worst people to advocate for what the overall difficulty of the game should be.

You complain about these broken builds but you have in fact played all of them. You went out of your way to make them overpowered. You remind me of somebody who got fat eating cake arguing that nobody should be able to have cake. Self control maybe?

I have played a dc necro wizz, was mindblown by its dcs, i have played a tempest melle with new blitz and i was impressed by its ability to keep and sustain new blitz, i played a pure occult dwarf and was impressed how spell resistance can be powerful yet how buggy it is, i played a palie staff build, was impressed by it, i played a pure 2hander palie, i played a monkcher, i played a shiradi wiz sorc cleric fsoul, i played every single class in at least 3 variations, i have over 60 heroic past lifes massed on many many different builds and playstyles, i played a wolf, a tree builds, i played practically everything on a character that has all the imaginable gear you can get for almost any build which i collected in past years.
The only thing i have never ever played on my main was a tank build, and i doubt i will ever play one and i never take part in those discussions since i am severely inexperienced in how sentinel /my most hated destiny/ and shield non dps playstyle is working.
I do have experience with playing with tanks, for example heystack on our server who once pulled red /before prr change/ in ee wgu and pulled all trash into my discos and we managed to burst it pretty fast, i was quite impressed and said, oh gosh if tehy are adding more prr i dont even want to know what will happen with your build.
What happend is that he posted a video of ee fot where he tanked reaver and all 3 dragons at same time never falling below 50% hp, i was impressed by that and i know many players cannot do that.
But if a good player has obtained imortallity with last update, even the regulars have obtained semi god mode.
I do not consider that fun.
IT was fun when i had to back up every few hits and use my brain to make up tactics how to fight/prioritize targets etc.

I can sincerely say that when i say something is broken and should be fixed, there is no statement of love or hate behind that, but just pure play experience.
Sorry if my experience and my playstyle that is to test every build at its peaks is offending you and if you think i do not provide proper feedback

I dont care what happens to random players or what other think, i just care that this game takes a proper direction and that it becomes the ddo we loved and enjoyed back in 2008 and earlier.
And if im looking forward for the game to become better and balanced, why are people throwing so much hate at me?
I mean cmon, tell me really that palie is not the most broken non exploit melle currently on live.
Try to persusade me and i will agree with you.
But trust me, it will be a hard task to do so, not because im stubborn but because i played it and i know how powerful holy sword and mrr prr stanced harmor palie is currently

[IronClan]

I fully believe that the devs are purposely casualizing the game in order to go to a full p2w model, and I agree that most people here are welcoming that with open arms.

That has nothing to do with this discussion but hey when losing an argument badly always throw out a non sequitur that implies the person you can't hang with is "casual". That's not doing a lot to advance your side of the argument.

Nerfing is poor design compounded by bad customer service. Suggesting that the game be nerfed back to avoid some boogieman inarticulately pointed at and fussed over by people who fear change and can't adapt to the evolution of a game is counter productive.

Nerf Casters too? Why nerf everyone? So we can stand next to trash mobs sawing away for hours of boredom? Or So they can subtract 5000hp from epic mobs and end up with the exact same ratio of Damage to HP?

Let me ask you since you're so scared of "powercreep" how is the following different:

2000 "overpowered" damage dealt to 20000hp mobs
1000 nerfed damage done to 10000hp mobs that got reduced to "lower the powercreep"...

Going backwards or going forwards 6 of one half dozen of the other. Powercreep is a silly meme of MMO players, it's simply not a thing.

[bennyson]

I dont care what happens to random players or what other think, i just care that this game takes a proper direction and that it becomes the ddo we loved and enjoyed back in 2008 and earlier.

Those who cannot adapt to change will die off.

[depositbox]

Nerf

The only benefit this would have is players would go to other builds that are the best out of the nerfed smaller sized pool of classes, feats, epic destinies, past lives, and items.

[FestusHood]

We have every right to advocate for one difficulty setting being designed around our playstyle, even if it offends all the selfish people that demand every single difficulty setting being designed around themselves.

We are legion.

[Chai]

If they are going to nerf something, it's much better to do it early rather than late. The idea of letting it ride for a while, even though they know it needs adjusting will just lead to further gnashing of teeth when the nerf finally does come.

For single weapons or items, yes, but not for complete system design, because in my scenario, the nerf only happens once, rather than after every update after people hit the panic button because the DPS food chain they built around 6 months ago is no longer in the same order.

The greater quantity of gnashing of teeth happens in the current scenario, where nerfs are demanded and implemented after each update, and not the scenario I outlined, where it is all adjusted for balance after the system is complete.


You talk about leaving them headroom for future adjustments. If the community demands that under no circumstances can they ever adjust an ability downward, what kind of headroom does that leave? Seems to me this would force them to be quite conservative in what power they add knowing that if they boost something too much, they are stuck with it, because they can never fine tune it. Fine tuning requires being able to adjust down as well as up.

You mean, like the eSOS mistake I already outlined?

I am not saying NEVER adjust downward. I am saying leave the headroom until the class passes are complete, then do one round of adjustments rather than adjust after each update due to panic induced knee jerk reactionary feedback demanding nerfs, because the old FOTM is no longer on top of the pile. First you complete the system, then the fine tuning begins. Fine tuning before completion eliminates much of the headroom available to work with when the systems finally are complete.

[Blackheartox]

That has nothing to do with this discussion but hey when losing an argument badly always throw out a non sequitur that implies the person you can't hang with is "casual".

Nerfing is poor design compounded by bad customer service. Suggesting that the game be nerfed back to avoid some boogieman inarticulately pointed at and fussed over by people who fear change and can't adapt to the evolution of a game is counter productive.

The worst thing an MMO ever did was listen to someone calling for nerfs, when all problems can be fixed with the natural planned progression of the game that the unknowledgable call "powercreep".

Why nerf everyone? So we can stand next to mobs sawing away at trash mobs for hours of boredom? Or So they can subtract 1000hp from epic mobs and end up with the exact same ratio of Damage to HP?

Let me ask you since you're so scared of "powercreep" how is the following different:

200 "overpowered" damage dealt to 2000hp mobs
100 nerfed damage done to 1000hp mobs that got reduced to "lower the powercreep"...

You see powercreep is a silly meme of MMO players, it's simply not a thing.


That is incorrect, power creep has destroyed many mmos so far, and i dont mean destroyed but wiped them from the face of earth, as has p2w for some other games.
Everything should strive towards balance, in a game that has no pvp there can never be balance.
That imo is the biggest hurdle in ddo, no pvp to balance classes against each other.
I dont consider pvp interesting nor fun, but that is a think that makes super popular mmos live at their tops.
Have you ever checkd rankings of most popular mmos currently?
In past few years?
Ever saw ddo there?
Ever saw lotro there?

Well amongst fp2 models, i saw lotro, but never not a single sign of ddo.
Now you tell me im blatantly wrong, or something isnt going right.

To achieve balance, a man should not balance old underpowered classed by making it overpowerd /like case with monk and palie for example.
IT should be done so that there is a line where you stop and dont cross it.
Issue with ddo is they are always moving that line further and further.
Same thing happend in wow, and what were they forced to do?
They were forced to do a reset for enchancment development and thus managed to save what tehre was to save.
Same thing will happen to ddo, when you are able to do 1000000 points of damage and the regular trash mobs have 199 kkkkk hp and mortal doesnt work on those, you will ask yourself: why didnt i stop this madness?

[Blackheartox]

Those who cannot adapt to change will die off.


I am fully ok with adapting to changes, but when something is broken i will point it out, holy sword in its current implementation is.
If i was wrong the devs would not suggest the change that will go live, right?

[Grailhawk]

Show the numbers, don't make empty claims. I assume your numbers accounted for Sonic damage procs with full SP and crits? I'd like to see them, looking at it I'm not sure how you touch those sonic procs done at 30% faster alacrity.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447346-Combat-Styles-Comparison?p=5410263&viewfull=1#post5410263

Numbers don't have the Resonant Arms like you want but that's easy enough to figure out.
6*3.5 = 21

Sonic SP of (1+1.38+0.23+0.15+0.20+15*0.03) = 3.41 reasonable sonic sp for a mostly melee toon.

21*3.41 = 71.61 sonic damage on crit Duelist build has 40.9% crit chance to make that 29.28849 per hit which is an additional 85.23 DPS (29.28849*2.91)

Total DPS of 1646.02

Still ~100 below the Paladin, and that Dualist build was one of the best bard builds do to the Multi classing other bard builds fall behind and get closer to the 300 i originally stated.

[Oxarhamar]

No, because the nerf only happens once, rather than after every update after people hit the panic button because the DPS food chain they built around 6 months ago is no longer in the same order. The greater quantity of gnashing of teeth happens in the current scenario, and not the one I outlined.



You mean, like the eSOS mistake I already outlined?

I am not saying NEVER adjust downward. I am saying leave the headroom until the class passes are complete, then do one round of adjustments rather than adjust after each update due to panic induced knee jerk reactionary feedback demanding nerfs, because the old FOTM is no longer on top of the pile. First you complete the system, then the fine tuning begins. Fine tuning before completion eliminates much of the headroom available to work with when the systems finally are complete.

As for the timing of the nerf hammer it was asked in the Official Player Charicter Balance thread.

. (Not word for word) When would players like to see rebalance happen after a change?
The majority answered sooner rather than later to prevent FOTM builds from being FOTY.

[Chai]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/447346-Combat-Styles-Comparison?p=5410263&viewfull=1#post5410263

Numbers don't have the Resonant Arms like you want but that's easy enough to figure out.
6*3.5 = 21

Sonic SP of (1+1.38+0.23+0.15+0.20+15*0.03) = 3.41 reasonable sonic sp for a mostly melee toon.

21*3.41 = 71.61 sonic damage on crit Duelist build has 40.9% crit chance to make that 29.28849 per hit which is an additional 85.23 DPS (29.28849*2.91)

Total DPS of 1646.02

Still ~100 below the Paladin, and that Dualist build was one of the best bard builds do to the Multi classing other bard builds fall behind and get closer to the 300 i originally stated.

12 fighter levels and 7 bard levels = bard?

Fighter needs a pass yet, so being 100 behind isn't so bad. The main reason bard is further behind is because of this same type of feedback where people paniced and demanded nerfs right after the bard pass update. This is exactly what I was outlining about how demanding nerfs this frequently impacts peoples fun negatively.

[FestusHood]

I have played a dc necro wizz, was mindblown by its dcs, i have played a tempest melle with new blitz and i was impressed by its ability to keep and sustain new blitz, i played a pure occult dwarf and was impressed how spell resistance can be powerful yet how buggy it is, i played a palie staff build, was impressed by it, i played a pure 2hander palie, i played a monkcher, i played a shiradi wiz sorc cleric fsoul, i played every single class in at least 3 variations, i have over 60 heroic past lifes massed on many many different builds and playstyles, i played a wolf, a tree builds, i played practically everything on a character that has all the imaginable gear you can get for almost any build which i collected in past years.


Just read what you have written right here. Do you really believe that the game itself should be balanced with the expectation of this? Congratulations, you are a master grinder. If you can't figure out another way to entertain yourself, then the game simply may not be big enough for you.

There is an argument that now everybody is playing Paladins. No, they aren't. Walk around in any public space and examine random toons and see just how many of them are paladins. That's right, not that many. These are the majority of people playing the game, not just the small circle of people that you personally hang with.

Remember a few years ago when "everybody" was playing half elves, and nobody played drow? Wrong! In the game reality, there was never a time like that. I actually see more people playing half elves now than i did back in it's heyday.

[Chai]

As for the timing of the nerf hammer it was asked in the Official Player Charicter Balance thread.

. (Not word for word) When would players like to see rebalance happen after a change?
The majority answered sooner rather than later to prevent FOTM builds from being FOTY.

And thus, their builds are negatively affected more often. Bard has already been hit with a few nerfs since their pass happened.

[Blackheartox]

Just read what you have written right here. Do you really believe that the game itself should be balanced with the expectation of this? Congratulations, you are a master grinder. If you can't figure out another way to entertain yourself, then the game simply may not be big enough for you.

There is an argument that now everybody is playing Paladins. No, they aren't. Walk around in any public space and examine random toons and see just how many of them are paladins. That's right, not that many. These are the majority of people playing the game, not just the small circle of people that you personally hang with.

Remember a few years ago when "everybody" was playing half elves, and nobody played drow? Wrong! In the game reality, there was never a time like that. I actually see more people playing half elves now than i did back in it's heyday.

That has nothing to do with the fact that a single spell from paladin is overpowered and that its confirmed and will be nerfed, does it?

How i play the game is my thing, you play your way il play my way, ok?
Now that that is out of the way, half elfes were the "best" choice for most builds back in the day, of course people didnt play them since its a p2w race, but palie is free and severely overpowered in current implemenation.
I dont even know why you argue, i say it should be nerfed, devs are nerfing it since they as well acknowledged that it isnt balanced.
In what part of my statement do i deserve that i get offended by you?

[FestusHood]

I am not saying NEVER adjust downward. I am saying leave the headroom until the class passes are complete, then do one round of adjustments rather than adjust after each update due to panic induced knee jerk reactionary feedback demanding nerfs, because the old FOTM is no longer on top of the pile. First you complete the system, then the fine tuning begins. Fine tuning before completion eliminates much of the headroom available to work with when the systems finally are complete.

I'm sure you read through the thread discussing the probable changes to how divine grace works. What was the biggest outcry from those against it?

It's been like this FOREVER!! Why change it NOW!!!

[Blackheartox]

12 fighter levels and 7 bard levels = bard?

Fighter needs a pass yet, so being 100 behind isn't so bad. The main reason bard is further behind is because of this same type of feedback where people paniced and demanded nerfs right after the bard pass update. This is exactly what I was outlining about how demanding nerfs this frequently impacts peoples fun negatively.

I think its 12 rogue 7 bard 1 fighter, but i could be wrong

[Chai]

That has nothing to do with the fact that a single spell from paladin is overpowered and that its confirmed and will be nerfed, does it?

How i play the game is my thing, you play your way il play my way, ok?
Now that that is out of the way, half elfes were the "best" choice for most builds back in the day, of course people didnt play them since its a p2w race, but palie is free and severely overpowered in current implemenation.
I dont even know why you argue, i say it should be nerfed, devs are nerfing it since they as well acknowledged that it isnt balanced.
In what part of my statement do i deserve that i get offended by you?

If the bolded were true for everyone, no one would demand nerfs after each update, as they affect every player who plays the class.

Yeah they acknowledged it isn't balanced, but that applies to the current iteration of the game. When all of the class passes are complete, lets cross reference each person who demanded nerfs after each update of the specific class addressed in that update, with those who are at that time complaining that the same class is underpowered. Office pool on the number of posters who we will find in common when that happens. :p

[Grailhawk]

I think its 12 rogue 7 bard 1 fighter, but i could be wrong

12 Fighter/ 7 Bard/ 1 FVS

Max STR with Power Surge and Divine might. and tier 5's from swash.

[Blackheartox]

If the bolded were true for everyone, no one would demand nerfs after each update, as they affect every player who plays the class.

Yeah they acknowledged it isn't balanced, but that applies to the current iteration of the game. When all of the class passes are complete, lets cross reference each person who demanded nerfs after each update of the specific class addressed in that update, with those who are at that time complaining that the same class is underpowered. Office pool on the number of posters who we will find in common when that happens. :p

Hey il be honest with you, i thought teh troll was crazy when he demanded for monk nerfs, but honestly now i consider that dude a seer and a saint who tried to save ddo,but didnt manage and thus prolly moved on from this game.
So may be happy wherever the wind blew him to.

[Blackheartox]

12 Fighter/ 7 Bard/ 1 FVS

Max STR with Power Surge and Divine might. and tier 5's from swash.

How would a rogue version that has killer up fit into calculation?
Realistically in 99% content you can consider killer a perma buff, sneak damage scaled with melle power from blitz etc etc sneak from cores dual boost and whatnots

[Chai]

I think its 12 rogue 7 bard 1 fighter, but i could be wrong

He has kensai Power Surge listed in the str breakdown, so that would mean 12 fighter.

[FestusHood]

That has nothing to do with the fact that a single spell from paladin is overpowered and that its confirmed and will be nerfed, does it?

How i play the game is my thing, you play your way il play my way, ok?
Now that that is out of the way, half elfes were the "best" choice for most builds back in the day, of course people didnt play them since its a p2w race, but palie is free and severely overpowered in current implemenation.
I dont even know why you argue, i say it should be nerfed, devs are nerfing it since they as well acknowledged that it isnt balanced.
In what part of my statement do i deserve that i get offended by you?

First, i'm not trying to offend you. I am saying that you are well beyond the prowess of, not only average players, but a great majority of vets. Making the game challenging to people who have been playing for half a decade or more, with 60 past lives and all the gear you could possibly get, playing the most maxed out, optimized and recent top build would just not be a good idea. Most people don't build their toons that way, they really don't. Not saying there is anything wrong with it.

I am not against nerfing certain things. You are in favor of nerfing everything, and i can't agree with that. You want to go back to what you had in 2008. I have also seen you say that you solo'd epic content on a melee back then, so apparently the game wasn't hard enough then either.

Every week on tv you can watch extremely tall, athletic dudes easily dunking basketballs. Does that mean they should raise the rim? I've heard many people say they should.

[Blackheartox]

First, i'm not trying to offend you. I am saying that you are well beyond the prowess of, not only average players, but a great majority of vets. Making the game challenging to people who have been playing for half a decade or more, with 60 past lives and all the gear you could possibly get, playing the most maxed out, optimized and recent top build would just not be a good idea. Most people don't build their toons that way, they really don't. Not saying there is anything wrong with it.

I am not against nerfing certain things. You are in favor of nerfing everything, and i can't agree with that. You want to go back to what you had in 2008. I have also seen you say that you solo'd epic content on a melee back then, so apparently the game wasn't hard enough then either.

Every week on tv you can watch extremely tall, athletic dudes easily dunking basketballs. Does that mean they should raise the rim? I've heard many people say they should.

Basketball is not a video game.
Its a static game with rules that everyone follows, and players adapt to it.
In ddo we want the rules to adapt to the players.
IN the first place the change to holy sword was what you call changing of the rim.
It should not had happend imo, a setting where you need to change the height of the rim and change back to balance is ok.
But issue is people here only want to lower it so that everyone can dunk.

Imo ee should not be balanced around the best of the best but around those that put effort into playing the game.
Example soloing ee raids, even i can do it, only difference between me and other players is the time.
Imo that should never be possible no matter the build/playstyle/ability.

In other mmos tho, highest and hardest content is easily failable even by a collection of vets working together.

Notice what i want?
I want a chance to fail, a high chance of risk when i do something and not a buletproof kevlar with a minigun and a minikuke launcher /how i feel toward palies currently

[IronClan]

That is incorrect, power creep has destroyed many mmos so far, and i dont mean destroyed but wiped them from the face of earth

Really? Name some, careful I know my games... You ever noticed how WoW outstrips old content by giant leaps and bounds every time they release any one of the many expansion packs that game has? How many character levels does WoW have now?

Do a search on Gamasutra for "powercreep" and then "power creep" or even "power-creep" tell me how important you think this concept is if game developers don't actually write articles on it, or even discuss it on forums. It's so important you can't find anyone who makes games, on one of the top industry sites talking about it.

There's even post mortems of MMO's and other games, and even a game Developer glossary of lingo that is common around development houses... Guess what, "powercreep" didn't make the cut. A ghastly omission I'm sure, perhaps you can PM the author and let him know he missed it.

Again it's a meme made by players who assign it all manner of ills and evil portents, like medieval astrologers blaming comets for the plague.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

You are also reinforcing, with your second rule, the very thing I pointed out earlier - which is that people grow accustomed to the DPS food chain, and don't like it changed.

its not about the food chain.

if you take away the dps advantage that has been held by fighters and barbs for most of the game thats fine. but to give it to classes which already had redeeming qualities without rounding out the class benefits of being a fighter or barb is insult to injury.

either fighters and barbs need to be generally better at the only thing that they do, or they need to gain blue bars, cure spells, and either displacement, performance based aoe cc and insta kills or holy sword, loh, and divine grace.

[Oxarhamar]

And thus, their builds are negatively affected more often. Bard has already been hit with a few nerfs since their pass happened.

I do not disagree here.

I just think it is a reaction to players being unsettled with how long Monk splash dominated the FOTM builds.

[Chai]

I'm sure you read through the thread discussing the probable changes to how divine grace works. What was the biggest outcry from those against it?

It's been like this FOREVER!! Why change it NOW!!!

Yeap, and they confirmed the nerf is on the way for it, thus reinforcing what I am stating, by making adjustments after each reactionary outcry rather than waiting until the system is complete.

With an entity accessible to all classes/races, nerfing sooner than later is a good thing. With class balance, a comparison of completely different abilities, some patience is required. It is good to wait until the system is finished before fine tuning it, or else what you fine tuned in comparison to how it was in 2012 will just need to be fine tuned again when the comparisons change in 2014 due to progression in the system, and again later on after more progression. Better to be patient and fine tune it altogether once it is a completed entity.

[Chai]

its not about the food chain.

if you take away the dps advantage that has been held by fighters and barbs for most of the game thats fine. but to give it to classes which already had redeeming qualities without rounding out the class benefits of being a fighter or barb is insult to injury.

either fighters and barbs need to be generally better at the only thing that they do, or they need to gain blue bars, cure spells, and either displacement, performance based aoe cc and insta kills or holy sword, loh, and divine grace.

And now because of the panic induced nerf requests after every update, barbarians, who SHOULD be top DPS due to being crippled in self sufficiency, will not be, because the designers are responding to the pattern based negative feedback before the pass is even implemented by not juicing it up like they did the other two.

Oh yes, it is about the DPS food chain. Most if not all of the argumentation about paladins being too powerful is based on a DPS calc.

BTW, the game is so monte haul at this point that fighters have almost everything you listed. Balancing based on something accessible to everyone is not warranted or needed.

[Knobull]

My level 18 paladin using Holy Sword, is just now catching up to the dps of my level 14 swashbuckling drubard. Just thought I'd throw that out there. I suspect that the whole separate "epic" game balance has nothing to do with the original (and still there) game balance.

Holy sword is definitely no worse than the swf feats with swashbuckling. (hmmm can these be combined for something truly OP?)

That said, both of these characters out dps my level 19 S&B pure fighter. (who only does as much damage as he does through using a weapon that is no longer available - a Night's Grasp khopesh with a suffix I forget and a top-tier Risia ritual).

[FestusHood]

Basketball is not a video game.
Its a static game with rules that everyone follows, and players adapt to it.
In ddo we want the rules to adapt to the players.
IN the first place the change to holy sword was what you call changing of the rim.
It should not had happend imo, a setting where you need to change the height of the rim and change back to balance is ok.
But issue is people here only want to lower it so that everyone can dunk.

Imo ee should not be balanced around the best of the best but around those that put effort into playing the game.
Example soloing ee raids, even i can do it, only difference between me and other players is the time.
Imo that should never be possible no matter the build/playstyle/ability.

In other mmos tho, highest and hardest content is easily failable even by a collection of vets working together.

Notice what i want?
I want a chance to fail, a high chance of risk when i do something and not a buletproof kevlar with a minigun and a minikuke launcher /how i feel toward palies currently

I don't have a big problem with them nerfing holy sword. I also think swashbuckler's are still a bit over the top. I posted in a thread a while back right after the prr/mrr changes that they are too strong, and should be adjusted downward, especially when you add in a shield.

As for the basketball analogy, i don't see holy sword as lowering the rim. I see that as players generally becoming more athletic over time. Back in Wilt Chamberlain's time, almost nobody was dunking basketballs. The rim has always been the same height. Changing the rim i would equate to the new champion's system. It affects everybody, even people who have no chance of ever dunking a basketball.

I aree completely that ee shouldn't be completeable only by the best of the best. I agree people should have to work to be able to do it, and that maybe some of the least talented players should never be able to do it. Where we disagree is in just how much work somebody should be expected to do. You can do a heroic tr in a day. A typical full life for me takes months, and i play lots. I also play 5 toons about equally, so if i focused only on one, i might be able to cut that down to two weeks?

As far as soloing epic elite raids, it's funny that you say even you can do it. If you can't do it, i don't know who exactly should be able to. I'm guessing the number of people that can solo many epic elite raids is tiny, and even they can only do it on certain types of builds. In his prime, many people could say that Chamberlain was capable of soloing basketball. If you watch the old films, it appears that's pretty much what he was doing. Chamberlain is also the only player i am aware of that had game rules actually changed just for him.

As far as other mmo's being failable, that's because the build options are so limited that it's quite easy to control the balance between players and content.

You have spent a lot of time making your character into a juggernaut. I'm sure everything you did to make it that way was done with the idea of being able to dominate the content. Well, you can now. I'm not sure what they can do to challenge that character that won't break the game for everybody else.

You don't have to necessarily make a gimp toon to lower your power level. Have you considered just making something flavorful, and then trying to make that as good as you can? That's what i think most players do, they make the toon they want, and then try to beat the content with it. They don't look at the content and say, "how can i build a toon to beat this?"

I remember back when the playstation was new, and the first Resident Evil game came out. I read in a magazine shortly after it's release that there were players in Japan who could beat the game in under an hour using ONLY the knife. Now THAT was impressive.

[redoubt]

Al 3 work best as paladin now.
And as i know we are talking about palie being op, right?

A fully specd thf kotc will have best dps and defense amongs all 2hander builds
A fully specd defender will have best offense and defense amongst tank builds
A dc crusader combo works best as palie.

Notice something?

Yeah, its three different builds.

With all the fuss I thought you were saying that A SINGLE paladin build had the best DPS, defense and healing ALL AT THE SAME TIME!

[Angelic-council]

I personally love playing druid and im one of the people who are most for fixing the feats working in form.
Also caster druds are underwhelming compared to sorc/wizz or even cleric and fsoul light builds recenltly.
Now if you guys plan to add a third tree, please dont make it a pet tree, it has been proved that pets are waste of efficient dev time

Issue is from my perspective this will mean that druids will remain broken for at least half a year

Druid > Divine.

Lets not count exalted angel here, as Druids can roll that too. Clr are much better at light casting, but not FvS. You should see their firestorm/flame strike/comet fall combo... It does baby damage. The only useful light spell would be the divine punishment.. even that spell is kinda so so with 434 light power and all metas on.

[Forzah]

False. There is very much a need to consider the big picture which includes future plans for new content and passes on other PRE/classes. Your second rule is not accurate. If you use the current best entity as a limitation, you leave little to no headroom for improving anything else. The biggest mistake Turbine made which serves as a great example here is the eSOS. Entered the game in 2009, and took them 5 years to put in something better. That entity was a limitation they obviously did not want to surpass, and the rest of THF suffered for it for a long time because of that one single best weapon.

You are also reinforcing, with your second rule, the very thing I pointed out earlier - which is that people grow accustomed to the DPS food chain, and don't like it changed.

If you want the next few iterations of melee passes to be significant, you need to leave the devs some headroom to design the involved classes to be better than they currently are. If you constantly demand nerfs after every update which changes the DPS class pecking order, that headroom will not exist. Im seeing this currently with barbarian already, as people are commenting that their DPS is not enough. Why? Because people hit the panic button when bards and then paladins were redesigned, with no consideration given to what fighters, rogues, and barbarians would look like after their pass. The resulting nerfs shrank the headroom available for barbarians to grow in.

The second rule said "not (much) stronger" than the current best, which leaves all the room you need. By current best I mean the current best level of performance, not the current best class. You can make a new class the best, or at least situationally the best, without making it much stronger than the current best level. You can also make it as strong as the current best class and then nerf that class a little bit to achieve the order you want. This keeps the strength of players relatively constant compared to the difficulty of content and prevents power creep. In the end you should aim for the situation where the class with the lowest survivability has the best DPS. This gives all the tools you need and you can change the "DPS food chain" in any way you want without introducing further power creep.

ESoS being the best for so long was actually a pretty good idea, because it kept the strength of melee players compared to content quite constant (until MOTU at least). The mistake was that there were not enough alternatives that were almost a strong as ESoS, but ESoS by itself was not a mistake.

[Blackheartox]

Im really sorry but you guys annoy the hell out of me. nerf this nerf that its not fair cry cry cry.
do you guys not understand then once you all get your toons nerfed then you complain that the quests need to be nerfed.
Turbine builds a new quest content section and then its complain complain complain its too hard nerf it.
if everyone was to leave the toons where they are and leave the quests where they are when released nothing would need to be nerfed and we can all get on with looting chests again.... the chips would already be balanced.
does this not make sence?????
sorry for ranting guys but every time I come onto this forum all I see is nerf nerf its not fair....
if you want my rant, why cant a barb (my fav class that I cant play anymore because people complied I hit too hard) use cocoon while raged? its not a class effective spell its an epic ability, he is 28 and should be able to use it. this is a fix that is more predominant that fixing holy sword..
let turbine get on with their job of adjusting how things are ment to guys, and life will be a lot happier.

Cheers everyone and apologies if I have offended anyone.
happy hunting.

Did you see the first iteration and showcase they had of blood tribute?

YOu could had gotten so much temporary hp since it scaled with melle power that it was obviously broken to anyone who has understanding of third grade math.
IT was a good thing they didnt go on with that idea.
I am for making barbs powerful, they are alrdy in a good spot as it is survival wise if you play in crusader or twist in consec sacred ground with new heal amp changes.
And what i see and checkd last time they are getting very ok dps boost.
Barb will be playable, but only those ones who can afford a 3 2 twist will be able to play em properly, kinda same as now.
I never had a issue with SURVIVAL as pure dorf barb in epic elite content, i only had issue with dps which as occult was rather super low.
With new trees you will be able to play a berserker harmor barb who can complete content even on ee.
But thus far, barb seems ok, but with holy sword as it is, it still unerperforms compared to palie.
As a barb player, dont you find that kinda odd?
A glasscannon like build that requires effort to not be a glasscannon that doesnt have the cannon part so you can call em sturdy glass builds.
While palie is a mobile fortress.
I want barbs to be put on top melle dps, palies can be 2nd for now, but the defense that comes in palie kit would make it rather odd to put em on 2nd spot and the defenses they have will still make them top.

[kumagnificent]

Best nerf to holy sword would be to make it applicable only to swords.

Not khopesh. Not axes. LongSWORD. ShortSWORD. Bastard SWORD.

In addition, it's holy SWORD. Singular. So - it'll have to be a one handed sword.

[JOTMON]

Basketball is not a video game.
Its a static game with rules that everyone follows, and players adapt to it.
In ddo we want the rules to adapt to the players.
IN the first place the change to holy sword was what you call changing of the rim.
It should not had happend imo, a setting where you need to change the height of the rim and change back to balance is ok.
But issue is people here only want to lower it so that everyone can dunk.

Imo ee should not be balanced around the best of the best but around those that put effort into playing the game.
Example soloing ee raids, even i can do it, only difference between me and other players is the time.
Imo that should never be possible no matter the build/playstyle/ability.

In other mmos tho, highest and hardest content is easily failable even by a collection of vets working together.

Notice what i want?
I want a chance to fail, a high chance of risk when i do something and not a buletproof kevlar with a minigun and a minikuke launcher /how i feel toward palies currently

Even basketball adapted to suit the players and the overall game.
The original "basket" had no hole in the bottom, they used to pause the game climb a ladder to remove the ball from the basket.
Then they put holes in the basket to push the ball up out of the basket with a broom handle...
The basket now... not even a basket.. its a ring with netting.

Original Rules There were only thirteen rules of “basket ball” on a single page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_basketball
The game has evolved, and like any game even real life games it has to change as the game grows changes and evolves.
now there are only 12 rules but each rule has subsections and is now 80ish pages.
The basic mechanics and core rules have not changed, but the game has evolved.



I agree that EE or whatever highest level content/difficulty should be difficult, not scaled, and not made easier for soloers. ..but the rewards for completing the difficulty have to justify the challenge level.

Look at Mark of Death for example. how many people are running this on EH or EE. I see a few rare EE in closed channels, never see an EH even from day 1.
How many EH,EE capable players are just farming norms to get the 20th end reward....all of them... I don't see anyone saying they are only running EE until they get their 20th end reward.
Even the Mythic helm's from the flagging zone have a chance of dropping on casual and on the end reward list... its a lower drop rate.. but seriously...
I see a few ECasual farm all 4 orchards for end reward lists LFMS come and go as you please currently soloing in progress.

a lot of players did not like tiered loot, casual players wanted same access to the best of the best stuff without having to run at the most difficult levels.
So, What is the motivation to run harder content (beyond once for favor).. if there are no extra ingredients, worthwhile increase in loot drops,... why would you invest the resources to even bother trying.

Party mechanics are falling apart.. pets and hirelings are taking precedence over pugs and LFM's.
classes no longer bring unique useful buffs.. no once cares about bard songs, ranger barkskin, paladin aura's, .. they no longer give that make or break bonus.

In the old VOD at level raids, tanks needed to achieve a benchmark AC to become near no fail hit to tank.. so tank builds were hashed out, parties were formed around having ideal party makeups, otherwise it was much more difficult.
Now none of that matters, the unique classes no longer offer the benefits players will try to fill a party with.
There is no.. oh get a bard there are beholders in this quest and we need bard songs.. that comment will now get you booted from party before it starts.

The game is evolving away from traditional classic PnP parties (figher, wizard, cleric, rogue).. to group with whatever and whoever..
Good/bad.. hard to say.. its just different. hard to appeal to the masses and maintain traditional requirements.

[Makdar]

I'm against any nerfs as I do not believe it is necessary. There are plenty of people using Holy Sword and dying while trying it. What Turbine should be doing is collecting statistics on these types of things and basing their decisions on that instead of listening to the uber portion of the DDO population which are pretty much the only ones who have the time and energy to post and vote in these polls.

Of much greater consequence, allowing 6 year olds to play DDO. I'm 100% certain the vast majority of psychologists and psychiatrists would agree that this game is too violent for 6 year olds. I'd rather see a nerf happen there much more than to Holy Sword or anything else.

[Monkey-Boy]

Best nerf to holy sword would be to make it applicable only to swords.

Not khopesh. Not axes. LongSWORD. ShortSWORD. Bastard SWORD.

In addition, it's holy SWORD. Singular. So - it'll have to be a one handed sword.

An interesting idea.

Though I'm not so sure that's needed, it working with ranged weapons is kinda stupid.

[Skavenaps]

Holy Sword will keep its critical changes. It will drop the enhancement bonus down to +1 and it will lose the +1[W]. Paladin DPS is slightly overperforming where we want it to be. (Honestly the spell is still great; the +1[W] was gratuitous.)



Player feedback has overwhelmingly indicated that adjustments to changes should happen sooner rather than later when it needs to be done. Players will probably be seeing a lot of tuning as we balance the classes.

Sev~

Can we lose the full +2 and keep the +1[] ? Or at least the [0,5]? Or the full +1[] for shields or 1 hand weapon? Maybe 0,5[] for 2h and +1[] for 1 hand? Holy sword help to buff the shield dmg, a lot hard to raise than a normal weapon.

[JOTMON]

Best nerf to holy sword would be to make it applicable only to swords.

Not khopesh. Not axes. LongSWORD. ShortSWORD. Bastard SWORD.

In addition, it's holy SWORD. Singular. So - it'll have to be a one handed sword.

so screw the Warforged and Bladeforged Greatsword users.. that is their deity choice...
no thanks, not interested in pidgeon-holing.. and forcing the game into cookie cutter builds.

Don't remove versatility...
If I want to be a Dwarven paladin with holy war hammers, or a falchion wielding elf... then so be it..

Any artificer can cast deadly weapon (even from scrolls) on every party member... Holy Sword is a self only Paladin spell that requires a minimum 14 levels of Paladin...
The Holy sword should be margionally better..
controlling what stacks should be looked at.

[JOTMON]

Of much greater consequence, allowing 6 year olds to play DDO. I'm 100% certain the vast majority of psychologists and psychiatrists would agree that this game is too violent for 6 year olds. I'd rather see a nerf happen there much more than to Holy Sword or anything else.

Completely different problem.

While may or may not agree with 6 year olds playing this game... to me it depends on the comprehension and maturity level of the individual kid.

I am an old school kid, grew up with imagination before all these computer things were around... Lego, board games, matchbox cars, toy cap guns, cops robbers, cowboys vs Indians...
Cartoons like bugs bunny, elmer fudd, wiley coyote...those cartoons hade violence....
I remember being 6 and playing with a hammer and nails and a board that my parents let me use and told me to be careful...... guess what I learned... hammer and thumb.. hurts... lesson learned the hard way..
spankings and having casual/part time jobs as young as 8 years old using a lawn mower, snow blower, shovel..
Neighborhood parents would yell at local kids and keep them in line...Adults would tell any kid to smarten up if they were out of line..
we grew up just fine..

Now you cant even work at most places until you are 16, kids have unsupervised unlimited online video games, and the horror if some stranger adult tells a kid to behave or else...
Kids are not allowed to do or touch things because they could get hurt or they are not old enough.. at what point does the kid learn right from wrong, there are going to have to experience life at some point..

I re-shingled my roof a few years back.. my kid was 8 and I had him on the roof with me.. I put him in a harness, hard hat, tool belt, and hooked him up to the ring I bolted at the peak.
His mother said.. he shouldn't be on the roof, he is too young, you let him use a real hammer... he is too young... what if he hurts himself with the hammer...
He hammered 50 shingle nails into the peak of the roof all around the same place.. and dropped his hammer a half dozen times to slide off the side.. and eventually ... wacked his thumb...
He remembers that as being one of the best times of his life growing up.. I helped my dad shingle the whole roof.. is his tale... I remember a slightly different version.. but I still smile...
At 15 he helped me re-shingle the garage at my Mothers house.. he did just fine.. and actually helped this time...

Kids of this generation are electronics users, everything they do will at some point involve a computer, and likely online activity.. they will need to learn boundaries, limitations, lessons,....
They will do things we never thought of or expected, its a new generation of social media, online bullying, online predators....
at some point they will have to recognize those dangers and how to avoid them...
learning young isn't the issue, they will have to experience it at some point and they will not always listen to others, some lessons have to be learned personally.

Helping them to understand the world around them is our responsibility, Sheltering them from the world by not letting them be exposed does not help them even if you think you are looking out for their best interests.

Ultimately.. I have no issue with kids playing games like DDO with their family members/parents in a controlled environment... Its game that makes you think, research, trial and error, even teamwork....
Now a kid that gets plunked in front of a computer and the internet with no supervision..... That's a parent issue....

[Blackheartox]

Completely different problem.

While may or may not agree with 6 year olds playing this game... to me it depends on the comprehension and maturity level of the individual kid.

I am an old school kid, grew up with imagination before all these computer things were around... Lego, board games, matchbox cars, toy cap guns, cops robbers, cowboys vs Indians...
Cartoons like bugs bunny, elmer fudd, wiley coyote...those cartoons hade violence....
I remember being 6 and playing with a hammer and nails and a board that my parents let me use and told me to be careful...... guess what I learned... hammer and thumb.. hurts... lesson learned the hard way..
spankings and having casual/part time jobs as young as 8 years old using a lawn mower, snow blower, shovel..
Neighborhood parents would yell at local kids and keep them in line...Adults would tell any kid to smarten up if they were out of line..
we grew up just fine..

Now you cant even work at most places until you are 16, kids have unsupervised unlimited online video games, and the horror if some stranger adult tells a kid to behave or else...
Kids are not allowed to do or touch things because they could get hurt or they are not old enough.. at what point does the kid learn right from wrong, there are going to have to experience life at some point..

I re-shingled my roof a few years back.. my kid was 8 and I had him on the roof with me.. I put him in a harness, hard hat, tool belt, and hooked him up to the ring I bolted at the peak.
His mother said.. he shouldn't be on the roof, he is too young, you let him use a real hammer... he is too young... what if he hurts himself with the hammer...
He hammered 50 shingle nails into the peak of the roof all around the same place.. and dropped his hammer a half dozen times to slide off the side.. and eventually ... wacked his thumb...
He remembers that as being one of the best times of his life growing up.. I helped my dad shingle the whole roof.. is his tale... I remember a slightly different version.. but I still smile...
At 15 he helped me re-shingle the garage at my Mothers house.. he did just fine.. and actually helped this time...

Kids of this generation are electronics users, everything they do will at some point involve a computer, and likely online activity.. they will need to learn boundaries, limitations, lessons,....
They will do things we never thought of or expected, its a new generation of social media, online bullying, online predators....
at some point they will have to recognize those dangers and how to avoid them...
learning young isn't the issue, they will have to experience it at some point and they will not always listen to others, some lessons have to be learned personally.

Helping them to understand the world around them is our responsibility, Sheltering them from the world by not letting them be exposed does not help them even if you think you are looking out for their best interests.

Ultimately.. I have no issue with kids playing games like DDO with their family members/parents in a controlled environment... Its game that makes you think, research, trial and error, even teamwork....
Now a kid that gets plunked in front of a computer and the internet with no supervision..... That's a parent issue....

I grew up during war, as a 6 year i saw my friends massacred by granades.
We played in nature more then with video games, and kids playing with kids consists of more violence then any video game imaginable.
Play football or basketball like a kid.
Play with snakes, use airguns to hunt rats.
Here, it was the only way available to have fun, since we were constantly without electricity, internet?
What was internet?
Only thing we knew about was sound of sirens and "speedruns" to shelters.
While fleeing to other countries to save our skins i managed to get hooked on d&d and since then i was a fan and managed to always obtain resources to play similiar games.

Thats violoence, not some stupid made up game where you swing a sword at imaginary beasts.

My philosophy toward kids is to let them face the harsh reality as fast as possible to adapt to real life.
Noone has ever profited from doting parents nor will ever be when they face a real issue.

But my view and my epxeriences are so unique that most people who play video games dont even believe what iwent through and still function better then 95% of them in real life.

And when i want to save the game that i love so much, some randoms always pop up screaming and crying to prevent so much needed nerfs to make this game go into correct direction.

I just feel exteremely sad that i even spent a single second of my life arguing with those people.

[Neomarica]

Best nerf to holy sword would be to make it applicable only to swords.

Not khopesh. Not axes. LongSWORD. ShortSWORD. Bastard SWORD.

In addition, it's holy SWORD. Singular. So - it'll have to be a one handed sword.

Khopesh is a sword. So is the greatsword. I'm fine with it only applying to swords but if it does, it should apply to ALL swords, not an arbitrary subselection based on what, according to ridiculously inaccurate D&D terminology(longsword is actual LONG sword and generally refers to two handers. And then there's the falchion issue...) has a sword in its name.

[Chai]

The second rule said "not (much) stronger" than the current best, which leaves all the room you need.

Not really. Depends on what the future plan is. If they plan to make all classes much better than they are now, then they need a lot more headroom, but this community panics when the first two classes get their pass because they are only thinking in the here and now when providing feedback, and will not take future plans into account. Comparing 2014 paladins to 2012 fighters and saying they should be the same, or "not much better" allows for no headroom whatsoever.


By current best I mean the current best level of performance, not the current best class. You can make a new class the best, or at least situationally the best, without making it much stronger than the current best level. You can also make it as strong as the current best class and then nerf that class a little bit to achieve the order you want. This keeps the strength of players relatively constant compared to the difficulty of content and prevents power creep. In the end you should aim for the situation where the class with the lowest survivability has the best DPS. This gives all the tools you need and you can change the "DPS food chain" in any way you want without introducing further power creep.

No, because again you are comparing other classes pre-pass in the here and now, not allowing for the overhead to go forward making those other classes which didn't get their pass yet better in the future. If you demand new paladin to be not much better than the old fighter, then the fighter pass will be lackluster, as will any other revamp of other melee which have not be addressed yet.

Classes also are not hard coded to have specific barriers regarding survivability. Wizards can wear plate armor in DDO. If they code them to be best offense because they "lack survivability" this would be in error, because theres no hard barrier in place like other MMOs which prevents them from gaining said survivability.


ESoS being the best for so long was actually a pretty good idea, because it kept the strength of melee players compared to content quite constant (until MOTU at least). The mistake was that there were not enough alternatives that were almost a strong as ESoS, but ESoS by itself was not a mistake.

I disagree with this. It is a perfect example where all of the strength of melee was condensed into one entity, something people are currently complaining about with holy sword. If you didn't have an eSOS you were behind everyone else who did. The current iteration where other stat damage types have their niche, staff has its niche, finesse weapons have their niche, ranged has its niche, is far better than having to farm an eSOS or just accept your second rate DPS. When rangers, a class that gets all the TWF feats free of charge, and has more than half their AP devoted to TWFing would rather swing an eSOS with no THF feats, its a huge mistake, and one which kept honest melee development stonewalled for a long time in this game.

[Blackheartox]

I disagree with this. It is a perfect example where all of the strength of melee was condensed into one entity, something people are currently complaining about with holy sword. If you didn't have an eSOS you were behind everyone else who did. The current iteration where other stat damage types have their niche, staff has its niche, finesse weapons have their niche, ranged has its niche, is far better than having to farm an eSOS or just accept your second rate DPS. When rangers, a class that gets all the TWF feats free of charge, would rather swing an eSOS with no THF feats, its a huge mistake, and one which kept honest melee development stonewalled for a long time in this game.

Do you consider esos a mistake?

IF yes, then holy sword as spell now is what esos was in old days.
ANYONE WITHOUT HOLY SWORD on non exploit builds IS BEHIND.
And how was esos issue solved at least a bit?
With 2-3 nerfs.
So what is the issue?
Let the same happen with holy sword.
IF years of experiences have thought us anything it is NOT TO make something so stupidly strong in the first place to brake balance.

[walkin_dude]

Do you consider esos a mistake?

IF yes, then holy sword as spell now is what esos was in old days.
ANYONE WITHOUT HOLY SWORD on non exploit builds IS BEHIND.
And how was esos issue solved at least a bit?
With 2-3 nerfs.
So what is the issue?
Let the same happen with holy sword.
IF years of experiences have thought us anything it is NOT TO make something so stupidly strong in the first place to brake balance.

Doesn't somebody have to have the best DPS?

I see this attitude of "hey, dude A does 2 more dps than dude B! Dude B is completely useless now!" and can't help feeling that it is silly.

[redoubt]

I agree that EE or whatever highest level content/difficulty should be difficult, not scaled, and not made easier for soloers. ..but the rewards for completing the difficulty have to justify the challenge level.

Look at Mark of Death for example. how many people are running this on EH or EE. I see a few rare EE in closed channels, never see an EH even from day 1.
How many EH,EE capable players are just farming norms to get the 20th end reward....all of them... I don't see anyone saying they are only running EE until they get their 20th end reward.
Even the Mythic helm's from the flagging zone have a chance of dropping on casual and on the end reward list... its a lower drop rate.. but seriously...
I see a few ECasual farm all 4 orchards for end reward lists LFMS come and go as you please currently soloing in progress.

a lot of players did not like tiered loot, casual players wanted same access to the best of the best stuff without having to run at the most difficult levels.
So, What is the motivation to run harder content (beyond once for favor).. if there are no extra ingredients, worthwhile increase in loot drops,... why would you invest the resources to even bother trying.

Party mechanics are falling apart.. pets and hirelings are taking precedence over pugs and LFM's.
classes no longer bring unique useful buffs.. no once cares about bard songs, ranger barkskin, paladin aura's, .. they no longer give that make or break bonus.

In the old VOD at level raids, tanks needed to achieve a benchmark AC to become near no fail hit to tank.. so tank builds were hashed out, parties were formed around having ideal party makeups, otherwise it was much more difficult.
Now none of that matters, the unique classes no longer offer the benefits players will try to fill a party with.
There is no.. oh get a bard there are beholders in this quest and we need bard songs.. that comment will now get you booted from party before it starts.

The game is evolving away from traditional classic PnP parties (figher, wizard, cleric, rogue).. to group with whatever and whoever..
Good/bad.. hard to say.. its just different. hard to appeal to the masses and maintain traditional requirements.

While we disagree on holy sword, there is much here that we do agree on (though I don't think holy sword is the cause of these issues.)

I actually liked the tiered loot. In some cases I have multiples of an item so I can wear it as I level. In other cases I worked to get the EE version because what it added was worth it to me. In other cases the EN or EH version did what I needed and was good enough.

As for party mechanics, I agree there too. I used to run VOD a lot. You needed a party healer, trapper, tank (often we wanted a WF tank), tank healer (often wizard/sorc with recon) and you needed dps. Same for TOD and many others. I actually liked this. The leaders ability to gather people with the right skill sets mattered. People working as a team mattered. I don't know how we get back to this.

In my guild we ALL had alts. One was always a healer. Then most had either a CC arcane or a trapper. Today most people don't play most those things. It used to be that people gave SP potions to the healers and sometimes the arcanes to help cover the cost of them. Or when people bought stacks of heal scrolls for the clerics. THF and TWF characters carried shields; blocking in doors was required often and you used a shield when you did it to reduce incoming damage while the caster behind you did the dps. We used to use tanks. Intimidate and even solid fog clickies were used to get and hold agro.

Best I can tell, much of this change is from the hamster wheel that is past lives. Now that building a character takes so many millions of xp over many lives, there is a lot less playing of alt and speed has become more important. We have found ways to do it. Player population has declined and made it harder to get groups even in prime time and that has made short manning quests more important as well. We have found ways to do that too. Now we don't need healers, so no one plays them. We don't need CC, so no one plays them. Same for buffing bards. Everyone plays max dps all the time. ("no one" is not no one, but really very very few.)

I can't say for sure how to fix this, but I think it will start with a need for tanks. Mobs that you don't want hitting you and that you cannot kite or perch. Someone needs to go in there and tick it off and hold its agro. Intimidate needs to do a better job at holding agro as well. In its old state you could hold agro with intim even if you dps was lower. Today, intim does not do that. You have to have dps, threat gen and maybe intim. It does no good to be the best defender if you can't keep the mob of the barbarian (some day, right?) or the sorc doing massive damage to it.

After that, you start looking at needing someone to heal the tank while tanking and the party as well. Maybe as this all develops you get back to needing something besides dps in a group. Then again, I'm not sure most people would even want this back...

[Chai]

Do you consider esos a mistake?

IF yes, then holy sword as spell now is what esos was in old days.
ANYONE WITHOUT HOLY SWORD on non exploit builds IS BEHIND.
And how was esos issue solved at least a bit?
With 2-3 nerfs.
So what is the issue?
Let the same happen with holy sword.
IF years of experiences have thought us anything it is NOT TO make something so stupidly strong in the first place to brake balance.

Let all class passes happen, then determine how far behind the new versions of those are, then nerf once if needed.

Again, youre comparing old unaddressed classes to the new shiny post pass paladin. Demanding it to be nerfed now due to comparisons with classes which have not received their development pass yet leaves the devs less overhead to improve those other classes when they address them in the future.

I bet this is the exact reason the barbarian (the class which should be the highest DPS) adjustments are much weaker already. People demanding nerfs of bards and paladins.

another way to address the eSOS situation would have been to improve other melee weapons in 2009 and 2010 to approach and parallel similar DPS. Instead those were left until 2012 and in that ~ 3 year era we had rangers swinging eSOS. Here with this example, paladins are not the only class receiving adjustments. If they were your "nerf now rather than later" suggestions would be valid. Since they have plans to adjust all melee classes however, the comparison needs to be made to the adjusted melee class rather than the old version not yet adjusted.

[Monkey-Boy]

The ESOS was a mistake. Balancing the weapon styles on a rare weapon was a poor choice.

[Blackheartox]

Let all class passes happen, then determine how far behind the new versions of those are, then nerf once if needed.

Again, youre comparing old unaddressed classes to the new shiny post pass paladin. Demanding it to be nerfed now due to comparisons with classes which have not received their development pass yet leaves the devs less overhead to improve those other classes when they address them in the future.

I bet this is the exact reason the barbarian (the class which should be the highest DPS) adjustments are much weaker already. People demanding nerfs of bards and paladins.


Ok if melles are soloing ee lob and ma, a raid ee a melle, then you tell me that palie isnt out of place.
IF monkchery soloing most raids on ee isnt out of place then you tell me all is good.
A raid consists of 12 people, and not 1 person abusing the most broken op build currently in existence.
Nerf all those broken builds, and maybe, just maybe grouping will come back.
Nerf selfhealing and maybe, just maybe clerics will and fsouls and druids rise again as healers.
I mean i bet everyone can agree with me that raids pre motu were much more fun then they are now.
You could do a lower dps caster only raid or a organized with healers barbs fighters and mixed everythings group that would complete faster.
It was, whats the word?
More fun and more group oriented.
Im bored and hate it that im forced to solo 99% of the time or duo never "wanting" to let anyone in group because i dont need em.
Its not because of super skills, its because how mentalitiy of ddo has shifted.
ANd making all classes selfhealing and with madddd dps is not the cure.
Nerf all to oblivion and bring back some core rules back to ddo.
ITs doable, consists only on not buffing everything without a reason to do so.
IF we for example just nerfed earth stance, it would had been so much easier to balance centerd monks.
Same now with holy sword, simply nerf it not to let it go out of place.
And armor up was apsolutely horrible.
I feel sad that im running a pure sorc with 125 prr, i should maybe have 20-30 tops be a glasscannon, but nooooo they wanted to let me use armor and get such high number.
I say nerf it all

[Chai]

Ok if melles are soloing ee lob and ma, a raid ee a melle, then you tell me that palie isnt out of place.
IF monkchery soloing most raids on ee isnt out of place then you tell me all is good.
A raid consists of 12 people, and not 1 person abusing the most broken op build currently in existence.
Nerf all those broken builds, and maybe, just maybe grouping will come back.
Nerf selfhealing and maybe, just maybe clerics will and fsouls and druids rise again as healers.
I mean i bet everyone can agree with me that raids pre motu were much more fun then they are now.
You could do a lower dps caster only raid or a organized with healers barbs fighters and mixed everythings group that would complete faster.
It was, whats the word?
More fun and more group oriented.
Im bored and hate it that im forced to solo 99% of the time or duo never "wanting" to let anyone in group because i dont need em.
Its not because of super skills, its because how mentalitiy of ddo has shifted.
ANd making all classes selfhealing and with madddd dps is not the cure.
Nerf all to oblivion and bring back some core rules back to ddo.
ITs doable, consists only on not buffing everything without a reason to do so.
IF we for example just nerfed earth stance, it would had been so much easier to balance centerd monks.
Same now with holy sword, simply nerf it not to let it go out of place.
And armor up was apsolutely horrible.
I feel sad that im running a pure sorc with 125 prr, i should maybe have 20-30 tops be a glasscannon, but nooooo they wanted to let me use armor and get such high number.
I say nerf it all

Raids are built wrong if they are being soloed on EE at level. This has nothing to do with paladins, bards, melee pass, etc...people soloing raids is nothing new.

Unfortunately, the battle to keep DDO close to D&D was lost some time ago. Nerfing all to oblivion will not result in a net gain of player interest. It will merely result in having to saw down arbitrarily high HP totals longer, which is unfun.


I feel sad that im running a pure sorc with 125 prr, i should maybe have 20-30 tops be a glasscannon, but nooooo they wanted to let me use armor and get such high number.

this in particular is why they cant balance based on who has better survivability. Theres no hard barrier preventing the stereotypical mmo classes who have less survivability obtaining it in this game. That type of balance works better in games where casters just cant wear anything other than cloth period.

[Neomarica]

Let all class passes happen, then determine how far behind the new versions of those are, then nerf once if needed.

Again, youre comparing old unaddressed classes to the new shiny post pass paladin. Demanding it to be nerfed now due to comparisons with classes which have not received their development pass yet leaves the devs less overhead to improve those other classes when they address them in the future.

I bet this is the exact reason the barbarian (the class which should be the highest DPS) adjustments are much weaker already. People demanding nerfs of bards and paladins.

another way to address the eSOS situation would have been to improve other melee weapons in 2009 and 2010 to approach and parallel similar DPS. Instead those were left until 2012 and in that ~ 3 year era we had rangers swinging eSOS. Here with this example, paladins are not the only class receiving adjustments. If they were your "nerf now rather than later" suggestions would be valid. Since they have plans to adjust all melee classes however, the comparison needs to be made to the adjusted melee class rather than the old version not yet adjusted.

Post-update classes SHOULD be compared to classes that haven't been updated yet. Unless the intention is to upgrade the power of all classes significantly(in other words, power creep except more of it), in which case the devs should probably be communicating that more clearly.