Confirmation of Nerf to Holy Sword

[Blackheartox]

Raids are built wrong if they are being soloed on EE at level. This has nothing to do with paladins, bards, melee pass, etc...people soloing raids is nothing new.

Unfortunately, the battle to keep DDO close to D&D was lost some time ago. Nerfing all to oblivion will not result in a net gain of player interest. It will merely result in having to saw down arbitrarily high HP totals longer, which is unfun.

They droped down good and fast enough alrdy.

In other games raid boss fights can take up for several hours.
What raid do we have where a group that is full of veterans needs several hours to complete?

Wyrm?
Nope done under 30 easily in a semi ok group

Peaks?
Nope

Shroud ?
nope

Vons?
Nope

Mark of zerg?
Nope

Abbot?
That was prolly one of most fun raids they made in existence of ddo with titans being second imo but nope even that is done fast


Notice the trend?
Its not just raids being super easy and super easy to complete, its a issue that with things like holy sword there is no point to play the game.
Its like this, they buffed up palie and i managed to stop some broken barb proposals with help of other players that care about this game.
IT would had been, barb way way superior to palif if tribute went live as planed, then they would lets assume go for rogues, make some selfhealing in rogues and some superb super sneak scaling with i dont know rogue only Sneak power, then they would go back to monks and i dont know give super upgrade to monk stances.

Issue is they dont have a line they never cross.
Where is the end of buffing?
As i said if ddo had proper pvp you could make a dps treshold line which you dont want to cross and balance around that.
Make barbs do roughly do 10% more dps then others rogues come in 2nd fighters third tempests 4th monks and druids 5th.
A state of balance cannot be achived if you dont have a line you do not want to cross.
This way its just getting out of control and holy sword now is honestly absolutely not balanced and reworking others classes around this will only provide even more nonneeded powers and create a vicious cycle imo.

I might be entirely wrong of course.
But issue is, history of ddo so far stands as proof that i am not wrong.

[Qhualor]

Doesn't somebody have to have the best DPS?

I see this attitude of "hey, dude A does 2 more dps than dude B! Dude B is completely useless now!" and can't help feeling that it is silly.

I see this a lot on the forums. It makes reasonable discussions difficult and gives a false sense of abilities that other classes posess. With the right gear, play skill, knowledge and build any build can be "best"... in a group. That same build could be "worst" build in a different group, but discussions lump an entire class into a category unfairly.

[Chai]

They droped down good and fast enough alrdy.

In other games raid boss fights can take up for several hours.
What raid do we have where a group that is full of veterans needs several hours to complete?

Wyrm?
Nope done under 30 easily in a semi ok group

Peaks?
Nope

Shroud ?
nope

Vons?
Nope

Mark of zerg?
Nope

Abbot?
That was prolly one of most fun raids they made in existence of ddo with titans being second imo but nope even that is done fast


Notice the trend?
Its not just raids being super easy and super easy to complete, its a issue that with things like holy sword there is no point to play the game.
Its like this, they buffed up palie and i managed to stop some broken barb proposals with help of other players that care about this game.
IT would had been, barb way way superior to palif if tribute went live as planed, then they would lets assume go for rogues, make some selfhealing in rogues and some superb super sneak scaling with i dont know rogue only Sneak power, then they would go back to monks and i dont know give super upgrade to monk stances.

Issue is they dont have a line they never cross.
Where is the end of buffing?
As i said if ddo had proper pvp you could make a dps treshold line which you dont want to cross and balance around that.
Make barbs do roughly do 10% more dps then others rogues come in 2nd fighters third tempests 4th monks and druids 5th.
A state of balance cannot be achived if you dont have a line you do not want to cross.
This way its just getting out of control and holy sword now is honestly absolutely not balanced and reworking others classes around this will only provide even more nonneeded powers and create a vicious cycle imo.

I might be entirely wrong of course.
But issue is, history of ddo so far stands as proof that i am not wrong.

What would be the net result in DDO if they made raids like stereotypical MMOs, where clearing takes a few hours, then the boss fight is like 40 minutes?

Net gain in players and revenue?

I don't think so.

In DDO people complain about having to run to demon queen, and having to rerun the pre-raid every time before running the raid again.

You also claimed you want to nerf everything to oblivion to make it closer to core D&D. Now youre talking about balancing like other MMOs which have much longer boss fights. These two are the antithesis of each other. In D&D rounds of combat are 6 seconds(ish) so even a 20 round combat would be 2 minutes long. A 100 round combat would be a 10 minute boss fight. Stereotypical MMOs are all about arbitrarily high HP totals, gear checks, trigger events, APM, and folks playing very narrow roles, and have a significant chance of failure if all of those are not met.

Designing raids like stereotypical MMOs have for DDO, would not end well. The history of DDO shows this suggestion to be highly undesired.

[Blackheartox]

What would be the net result in DDO if they made raids like stereotypical MMOs, where clearing takes a few hours, then the boss fight is like 40 minutes?

Net gain in players and revenue?

I don't think so.

In DDO people complain about having to run to demon queen, and having to rerun the pre-raid every time before running the raid again.

You also claimed you want to nerf everything to oblivion to make it closer to core D&D. Now youre talking about balancing like other MMOs which have much longer boss fights. These two are the antithesis of each other. In D&D rounds of combat are 6 seconds(ish) so even a 20 round combat would be 2 minutes long. A 100 round combat would be a 10 minute boss fight. Stereotypical MMOs are all about arbitrarily high HP totals, gear checks, trigger events, APM, and folks playing very narrow roles, and have a significant chance of failure if all of those are not met.

Designing raids like stereotypical MMOs have for DDO, would not end well. The history of DDO shows this suggestion to be highly undesired.

But history wants us to use broken mechanics builds to solo raids on "highest difficulty" ?

I for example have no issues soloing ee raids myself either.
Not because i am super pro, because i have enough ability to roll a monkcher or shiradi spammer as well.
Builds that dont require much skill to be played.
Same with palies right now, only difference you dont even need to bother to kite anylonger.
Go in, press 3 buttons, beat ee, post in achivments.
Wow, so pro.


I dont like that trend personally and that is imo the worst /After ploits disaster/ part of ddo

Also mark of zerg was a horrible raid.
Its unfun, non challenging and forces you to do 5-10 minute normal 20 zerg runs.
What is fun in that?
Its a raid for .... sake.
A raid should be the peaks of a game, where you test your ability to play with others and communication and coordination.
In ddo raids should be hardcore mind challenge with so much variety that every run feels like a adventure.
The highest ammount of brain challenge we have with raids is when we discuss and try to think what is causing lag wipes in wyrm

[axel15810]

What would be the net result in DDO if they made raids like stereotypical MMOs, where clearing takes a few hours, then the boss fight is like 40 minutes?


I know I wouldn't be playing raids if this was the case. Any raid over an hour is too long in my opinion. ~35-45 minutes is perfect. I'm glad DDO doesn't require those long grinding sessions.

[Qhualor]

But history wants us to use broken mechanics builds to solo raids on "highest difficulty" ?

I for example have no issues soloing ee raids myself either.
Not because i am super pro, because i have enough ability to roll a monkcher or shiradi spammer as well.
Builds that dont require much skill to be played.
Same with palies right now, only difference you dont even need to bother to kite anylonger.
Go in, press 3 buttons, beat ee, post in achivments.
Wow, so pro.


I dont like that trend personally and that is imo the worst /After ploits disaster/ part of ddo

You make it sound so easy. No player skill or knowledge involved? Just roll up whatever the current FOTM is and should easily solo an EE raid? Surprised there aren't more people posting in the Achievements section. I stopped "congrats" and checking out that part of the forum when I found out some exploit the raids in some way or cheese their way to the finish line and post a completion screen shot to say "look what I can do".

Either that build is obviously in need of a balance check or there's something completely wrong with raid design/set up.

[Blackheartox]

You make it sound so easy. No player skill or knowledge involved? Just roll up whatever the current FOTM is and should easily solo an EE raid? Surprised there aren't more people posting in the Achievements section. I stopped "congrats" and checking out that part of the forum when I found out some exploit the raids in some way or cheese their way to the finish line and post a completion screen shot to say "look what I can do".

Either that build is obviously in need of a balance check or there's something completely wrong with raid design/set up.

Well for ee solo, its mostly build to be perfectly honest.
You require knowledge, and mechanics on how bosses act.
But thing is, there is no complicated multi phase boss raid in ddo any longer where boss totaly changed his pattern.

Lob was a nice attempt by adding so many special attacks but its outdated gear made players entirely lose interest in that raid.
Mark had attempted the same approach but failed miserably.

I was a raider in some other games, some known some unknown to masses, and what i dont get in ddo is the following:
Why is a game that is based on hardcore fanatic players who played pen with so many settings and so many hardcore fights being presented with childplay raids in ddo.
I havent met a single raid in ddo, where i would be amazed by it, i mean like breath taken after playing other mmos.
IT all felt like, uhm ok, interesting.
First run of fot was cool kinda and titans and abbot.
But the newer the raid the more it lacks in quality and challenge imo.
I look at it from the perspective that we were all made into supermans but we fight 90 year old granmas

[Chai]

Well for ee solo, its mostly build to be perfectly honest.
You require knowledge, and mechanics on how bosses act.
But thing is, there is no complicated multi phase boss raid in ddo any longer where boss totaly changed his pattern.

Lob was a nice attempt by adding so many special attacks but its outdated gear made players entirely lose interest in that raid.
Mark had attempted the same approach but failed miserably.

I was a raider in some other games, some known some unknown to masses, and what i dont get in ddo is the following:
Why is a game that is based on hardcore fanatic players who played pen with so many settings and so many hardcore fights being presented with childplay raids in ddo.
I havent met a single raid in ddo, where i would be amazed by it, i mean like breath taken after playing other mmos.
IT all felt like, uhm ok, interesting.
First run of fot was cool kinda and titans and abbot.
But the newer the raid the more it lacks in quality and challenge imo.
I look at it from the perspective that we were all made into supermans but we fight 90 year old granmas

Because DDO survives on being its own niche games. It doesn't compete with stereotypical grinder MMOs with longer raids and higher chances of failure if the raid is not run properly. While having raids that require a strategy is good, if they took hours of time and more time to clear to etc...in a game where people complain about having to run "long distances" to quests, it would not end well.

Part of game design is knowing your audience. The older more entrenched MMOs like WOW and some Korean grinders have longer raids that require extreme levels of coordination. Most other MMOs are moving away from that.

I will also say that wanting the game to move closer to D&D core rules, and asking for grinder MMO-esque raids, is a direct contradiction. In core D&D it doesn't take hours to kill any monster once confronted. It takes minutes for longer battles. Many are over in seconds. In core D&D an epic named boss would have a couple hundred HP. In a grinder MMO bosses can have 600 million HP. Which of these do you want DDO to move closer to?

[redoubt]

What would be the net result in DDO if they made raids like stereotypical MMOs, where clearing takes a few hours, then the boss fight is like 40 minutes?

Net gain in players and revenue?

I don't think so.

I agree. Having played since launch, I've been here when we actually spent hours to complete a quest. I think that is too much. But I don't see a need to complete every quest in under 10 minutes either. An hour for a long quest seems like a good marker to me.


But history wants us to use broken mechanics builds to solo raids on "highest difficulty" ?

I for example have no issues soloing ee raids myself either.
Not because i am super pro, because i have enough ability to roll a monkcher or shiradi spammer as well.
Builds that dont require much skill to be played.
Same with palies right now, only difference you dont even need to bother to kite anylonger.
Go in, press 3 buttons, beat ee, post in achivments.
Wow, so pro.

I do not understand your "history wants us to use broken..." point. Please elaborate.

The next part is also a point of confusion for me, but in a different way. I've continued to enjoy this game after 8 years because I've never made a build specifically to defeat content. I've always made builds I wanted to try or to help build up my main during TRs. I'm currently on a multi-year quest to make and end game capable TWF/trapper. As we discussed earlier the so called "exploiter" 18/1/1 built (though mine had rogue instead of fighter, used light weapons and could do traps, so I always resisted the "exploiter" tag for it) used to be just that. Turbine nerfed the living daylights out of that build. I left for a bit and played some more starwars. (Their build concept was too strict for me and I hated that every raid was just a dps race, so I came back.) Since then I've been working on adding things into my character to make a build that people say is gimp into one that is viable at end game. I don't seem to be having trouble finding challenge in the game.

Even on my current paladin life, I am finding challenge. Most of my guild won't touch the stormhorns. I'm currently at "Breaking the ranks". I've failed it twice now. I'll be trying again. I survive pretty well, but I don't seem to kill quite fast enough and keep ending up with too many mobs and then getting surrounded and stuck. The dragon throwing cold doesn't help either (still looking for a place to hide from that.) Maybe if I had mortal fear or completionist or epic completionist or was bladeforged or something, I would think it was easy, but I'm finding them quite difficult at this time.

I do wonder if the sense of being over powered is coming from paladin alone or from putting it on a BF? I've not played a BF because I don't need the past life and my friends have been starting at level 1, so I play something I can play with them (which is not BF.) I'm my EE experiments, I've found that the benefits I'm getting from Divine Crusader are at least as significant as what I get from paladin. I'm pretty sure that if I dropped my ED and twists out, even EH would become a challenge. Just saying.

3 buttons. Which three? I use:
zeal, holy sword, deathward, stoneskin clickies, displace clickies, haste clickies, action boosts, divine might, divine something else (next to it on my hotbar), consecration, DC cleave, Shield bash, stunning shield, the shield cleave attack, cocoon, LOH, cure serious, lessor restore, remove curse, a boat load of random potions, and probably a few more.
How are you doing EE with only 3 buttons? If you are really that good, is there really anything that the devs can do to challenge you that won't kill it for 99% of the players?


I know I wouldn't be playing raids if this was the case. Any raid over an hour is too long in my opinion. ~35-45 minutes is perfect. I'm glad DDO doesn't require those long grinding sessions.

Agreed.


Well for ee solo, its mostly build to be perfectly honest.
You require knowledge, and mechanics on how bosses act.
But thing is, there is no complicated multi phase boss raid in ddo any longer where boss totaly changed his pattern.

Lob was a nice attempt by adding so many special attacks but its outdated gear made players entirely lose interest in that raid.
Mark had attempted the same approach but failed miserably.

I was a raider in some other games, some known some unknown to masses, and what i dont get in ddo is the following:
Why is a game that is based on hardcore fanatic players who played pen with so many settings and so many hardcore fights being presented with childplay raids in ddo.
I havent met a single raid in ddo, where i would be amazed by it, i mean like breath taken after playing other mmos.
IT all felt like, uhm ok, interesting.
First run of fot was cool kinda and titans and abbot.
But the newer the raid the more it lacks in quality and challenge imo.
I look at it from the perspective that we were all made into supermans but we fight 90 year old granmas

This game has raids with varied mechanics. Back when they were end game, they actually required groups. Since the rise of the solo player and the push to make everyone fully self sufficient (remember LFMs that said "be self sufficient?") the raids and quests have changed.

As I said in a post above, I'd like to see the game back to a point where we needed people to play certain roles. This does not mean that all clerics must be healers and that all paladins must be tanks; the great thing about DDO is that the player can take most classes and build them in a way that they can do non-traditional roles very well, this should be preserved. I would like it if you actually needed a trapper for traps and could not just skip them. It used to be that way. But waiting for a trapper became a problem as population decreased. Same for healers. I liked it when curses, blinds, stat damage and negative levels did not automatically regen. You need a healer or a consumable or a shrine to get rid of them. We did not have dungeon scaling at launch. I'd go back to that, but that make the game less solo friendly, so I don't see that in the cards.

I guess my point to all of that is this: unless we are willing to make the game require grouping to complete the game, them there will always be people who are able to solo the hardest content. Some people will always built with the express purpose of doing the "impossible" simple to make a point. Then when they succeed, either through exploits, cheese, or even creativity in making an unintended combination, they come here and complain the game is too easy. Of course its too easy at that point.

[nibel]

Best I can tell, much of this change is from the hamster wheel that is past lives.

IMO, Epic Destinies had a bigger impact on the death of alts than past lives. Back in pre-MotU, most of those alts WERE first life characters. You might had one or two characters in the TR train, but your alt healer didn't needed anything else besides max wisdom, a superior devotion VI item, Max Life Magic, and tons of Heal scrolls and blue potions.

Same things for a trapper alt. Could work with a CC wiz alt if you was willing to niche into one single school (usually enchantment). Definitelly worked on a intimitank, that mostly required gear than stats/feats.

But once you added EDs, and every build around considers you have at least a 4-2-1 twist slot distribution, it was becoming harder and harder to mantain a healthy stable of alts. The increase of BtC gear also was an issue, because before you could run epics in your alts and send the seal/shards to the character that needed them.

Biggest mistake EVER done by turbine in this game was adding EDs as a complementary mechanic instead of real "epic class levels". Nowadays, the only major difference between a level 20 and 28 character is gear, gated by level. A level 20 undergeared in their primary ED, maxxed, with full twists is STILL more powerful than a level 28 character fully geared, but working on a underdeveloped side-ED (eg, a monkcher running Magister level 0-1).

[redoubt]

IMO, Epic Destinies had a bigger impact on the death of alts than past lives. Back in pre-MotU, most of those alts WERE first life characters. You might had one or two characters in the TR train, but your alt healer didn't needed anything else besides max wisdom, a superior devotion VI item, Max Life Magic, and tons of Heal scrolls and blue potions.

Same things for a trapper alt. Could work with a CC wiz alt if you was willing to niche into one single school (usually enchantment). Definitelly worked on a intimitank, that mostly required gear than stats/feats.

But once you added EDs, and every build around considers you have at least a 4-2-1 twist slot distribution, it was becoming harder and harder to mantain a healthy stable of alts. The increase of BtC gear also was an issue, because before you could run epics in your alts and send the seal/shards to the character that needed them.

Biggest mistake EVER done by turbine in this game was adding EDs as a complementary mechanic instead of real "epic class levels". Nowadays, the only major difference between a level 20 and 28 character is gear, gated by level. A level 20 undergeared in their primary ED, maxxed, with full twists is STILL more powerful than a level 28 character fully geared, but working on a underdeveloped side-ED (eg, a monkcher running Magister level 0-1).

Agreed. My main hits level 20 and has max destiny of choice and 4/2/1 twists. Its like level 12 and GS all over again. Levels 12 and 20 are the most powerful in the game relative to content. 23 is good with picking up the MOTU gear, but not nearly what getting full destinies at 20 does.

And you are right, EDs have most likely contributed to fewer alts.

[EllisDee37]

Agreed, though in fairness they did chip away at that imbalance a little for melee, at least, with melee power gained at each epic level from 21 to 28.

[Annyee]

IMO, Epic Destinies had a bigger impact on the death of alts than past lives. Back in pre-MotU, most of those alts WERE first life characters. You might had one or two characters in the TR train, but your alt healer didn't needed anything else besides max wisdom, a superior devotion VI item, Max Life Magic, and tons of Heal scrolls and blue potions.

Same things for a trapper alt. Could work with a CC wiz alt if you was willing to niche into one single school (usually enchantment). Definitelly worked on a intimitank, that mostly required gear than stats/feats.

But once you added EDs, and every build around considers you have at least a 4-2-1 twist slot distribution, it was becoming harder and harder to mantain a healthy stable of alts. The increase of BtC gear also was an issue, because before you could run epics in your alts and send the seal/shards to the character that needed them.

Biggest mistake EVER done by turbine in this game was adding EDs as a complementary mechanic instead of real "epic class levels". Nowadays, the only major difference between a level 20 and 28 character is gear, gated by level. A level 20 undergeared in their primary ED, maxxed, with full twists is STILL more powerful than a level 28 character fully geared, but working on a underdeveloped side-ED (eg, a monkcher running Magister level 0-1).

Spot on.

ED's was and is the single biggest imbalance in DDo. The construction of the ED's system is rife with inherent un-balancing mechanics. The whole thing needs to be reworked. Unfortunately we can identify problems and propose solutions but until the Devs are ready to acknowledge what is broken and then get the resources from Turbine to fix them nothing will happen. What is going to happen is we will get more broken tack-on content, changes to classes that does not solve any current problems, and of course more FotM builds.

[goodspeed]

Agreed, though in fairness they did chip away at that imbalance a little for melee, at least, with melee power gained at each epic level from 21 to 28.

lol chip away? They took aim with an rpg at that wall.

[vassilator]

Can I get a confirmation that the Holy Sword spell is being changed please?


As the lamannia Server still won't let me log in, I cannot confirm this myself.


I have posted on the lam discussion forum and have had no response, so I thought I would try my luck here.

my favorite class is a pally and I have 3 of them .as I play them often (even more so after U23) I liked the holy sword spell change when it came out because it made them a factor in kills during a game now they nerfed it after a very short time and pallies become back seat killers as usuall. I think the devs need to get their heads out their behinds and either stop teasing us or leave things as they are. I didn't really care about any of the other changes to pally but that one made a huge difference to the class.
extremely disappointed.

[Blackheartox]

my favorite class is a pally and I have 3 of them .as I play them often (even more so after U23) I liked the holy sword spell change when it came out because it made them a factor in kills during a game now they nerfed it after a very short time and pallies become back seat killers as usuall. I think the devs need to get their heads out their behinds and either stop teasing us or leave things as they are. I didn't really care about any of the other changes to pally but that one made a huge difference to the class.
extremely disappointed.

As smites animation got fixed, palies actually got a higher buff then a nerf this update.
Also change to healing amp favors paladins greatly.

They became stronger this update, and i dont have a idea why people are saying otherwise.

You lose 1 w and 1 ench bonus, gained 10 melle power from smites that work and gained roughly 20-30% more selfheal.

Please explain to me how that is a nerf that will make you not play palies again

[vassilator]

You are trying to compare a single feat to something that requires 14 levels of Paladin. It would be like saying weapons focus is not as strong as Finger of Death, so FOD should be nerfed because it only needs 13 wizard levels!



This points how circular people get when trying to justify the nerfs. They claim one thing is free and the other is not. 14 fighter is not free, but 14 pali is free. Makes perfect sense, not!



I too am tired of the rabid pendulum swinging.



Yep, more of us on the same page. Not sure how the "overwhelming majority" is on the nerf it side...



Yes. Please compare everything you get with your centered kensai build before you say you are out matched. Make the comparison fair for once.



I am not in the "overwhelming majority" that seems to scream the loudest on the forums. Paladins and heavy armor tanks were so bad that my last one was built back when heroic GH was end game content. He is a bank toon now. The changes to armor and the boost to paladin got me to try heavy armor S&B again. I had not even tried it as a past life because I new paladin was abysmal.

The next thing to discuss is the pendulum you at Turbine seem to be stuck on. Please get off of it. I for one, would appreciate a more stable game. Thank you.



Have you built one? All those other things you are talking about paladin having are hard to get. AP are very tight as are feats. I don't have the disease removal or added spells because I don't have the action points for it.

Cost? I ended up dropping points out of human and lost the healing amp because I did not have enough to get the bonus to shield in defender and exalted cleave at the same time with healing amp.

So there is a cost.



From who? The same half dozen who run the forum here and tell you that "everyone" in the game thinks like they do? Not all of us do.

omg I agree wholeheartedly but how do you get those idiots to listen to you // their knee jerk reactions are what make or break this game sometimes and I am getting tired of it. fire the lot and start over with people that know the game and care about it.

[Qezuzu]

my favorite class is a pally and I have 3 of them .as I play them often (even more so after U23) I liked the holy sword spell change when it came out because it made them a factor in kills during a game now they nerfed it after a very short time and pallies become back seat killers as usuall. I think the devs need to get their heads out their behinds and either stop teasing us or leave things as they are. I didn't really care about any of the other changes to pally but that one made a huge difference to the class.
extremely disappointed.

Just freaking thing for a second good god.

Holy Sword still gives +1 range +1 mult on ANY weapon... it gives more DPS than most class trees. By a lot.

[goodspeed]

Just freaking thing for a second good god.

Holy Sword still gives +1 range +1 mult on ANY weapon... it gives more DPS than most class trees. By a lot.

Ya I thought for sure they would kill the multiplier. Even without the extra range, the multiplier makes a great many weapons just badass. Go figure they left both and just took away the goofy extra die.

[Knobull]

Nerf confirmed. It takes my paladin's bastard sword from 36 base damage down to 24, but it's not that bad, feels like about a 20-30% reduction in actual dps. End result: swash swf rapier now does more damage than holy bastard sword. I still like playing my paladin, but will probably go back to my lvl 14 swf swash drubard, though she is 4 levels lower than my lvl 18 paladin her melee dps is much better (~30%). Both are still fun though.

I see no noticable change in divine strike or exalted cleave though, other than the reduced damage from the holy sword nerf.