Need advice on Build for TR

[Sandy345]

This is a build I rolled up for a friend who is TRing his bard in a few weeks. Basically he wants a TWF with high survivability end-game, self-healing, and uses bastard swords. He also wanted it to have evasion, but no trap skills. Originally he wanted mostly fighter levels, but I thought Pally would have more self-healing and better survivability. I decided a 15 pally/3 rogue/ 2 fighter would be a good mix, I considered monk, but ultimately I thought the build could benefit more with more skill points.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.23.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Scarlitta the GIMP
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Fighter \ 15 Paladin \ 3 Rogue)
Hit Points: 292
Spell Points: 185
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 14
Will: 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 22)
Strength 16 21
Dexterity 15 17
Constitution 15 15
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 14 14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 22)
Balance 6 15
Bluff 2 4
Concentration 4 25
Diplomacy 2 4
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 6 8
Heal 1 3
Hide 2 5
Intimidate 6 8
Jump 7 11
Listen -1 1
Move Silently 2 5
Open Lock 6 11
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 2
Search 0 2
Spellcraft 0 2
Spot -1 1
Swim 6 10
Tumble 3 6
Use Magic Device 6 28

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Least Dragonmark of Passage
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Bard
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Paladin)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 20 (Rogue)



This is what I came up with, but wanted advice. Is this going to fulfill what he's looking for? I am by no means the master build maker. Mostly UMD and concentration for skillpoints with a few ranks in open lock, balance, jump, etc. Also I didn't change it on the build but the human bonus feat is not going to be the dragon-mark but rather toughness. Also he has a +3 STR and CON tome they are just not included.

[Makkuroi]

Youre right on going pally, with holy sword and self-heals pally is just better than fighter nowadays. I think an 18 pally 2 monk would have the same number of feats and evasion, and get holy sword earlier. But actually, on a pally, going heavy armor is probably more interesting than evasion nowadays. An evasion build could wear heavy armor 90% of the time and swap to light armor/robes only for bypassing traps.

If you want fighter levels and have access to iconics, consider going purple dragon knight for the past life. Bladeforged is also nice for pallies.

[MacRighteous]

I'm not a master builder either, but I have been messing around with Paladin variations for a while, so I can offer a little insight based on my own limited experience... (Read: has a grasp, but may be corrected on some of the finer points)

When I look at your build a few things comes to mind:

1.) Evasion isn't as survivable as Heavy Armor and Shields these days.
2.) Bastard Swords are one of the few one handed weapons that take advantage of the THF chain's Glancing Blow bonuses.
3.) There are not very many interesting B.Swords, finding 2 that compliment each other instead of being redundant, might be hard.
4.) With only a few levels of Rogue and a few skill points into Rogue Skills, you are going to run out of Skills around level 12.
5.) The Paladin enhancement Cleaves are superior to the Cleave Feats and share a cool down - so you don't need the Cleave Feats.
6.) Dragonmarks > than Toughness for Humans, with just 12 AP you get: Expeditious Retreat, DD, Teleport, +10 Healing amp, 2 Action Boosts, +1 Stat and extra Dragonmark turns.
7.) The Fighting Chains: THF, TWF, SWF seem to be "All or Nothing" Feats. So only taking 2 in the chain is sub-optimal.

With these things in mind, I would further consider the practicality of splashing Rogue at all. Setting aside Evasion from the equation for the moment, I think that unless you are going for full Trap and Lock Skills that remain viable throughout the heroic levels, that taking less than 5 Rogue levels is not beneficial to a Pally Build, and if you did splash 5 Rogue levels you probably would want to go for the Paladin Staff build. That is the only way I could justify splashing Rogue in a Paladin build these days since Evasion is available from 2 levels Monk (which also gets you extra Feats) or just isn't as desirable as it once was due to the recent buffs to Armor and Shields.

So if your friend is dead set on an Evasion build, he would probably be better off going 18 Paladin (for the 18 cores) and 2 Monk (for Evasion + Feats) However I would at this point reconsider my fighting style. A TWF 18 Pally / 2 Monk Evasion build is certainly viable, however, I believe the DPS is sub-optimal compared to traditional THF (or the THF bonuses that can be applied to B. Swords if going one handed w/Shield or Orb.) So If I wanted to squeeze a little more DPS out of the build I would drop the whole TWF idea and consider using a Two Handed Weapon.

Now the question is between a TWF or THF 18 Paladin / 2 Monk Evasion build or a non Evasion build using Heavy Armor (and possibly shields.) EDIT: This is also where you would consider Unbongwah's Pally/ Ranger Build with the up and down sides he mentions below.

With the recent update Evasion has taken a back seat to S&B and Heavy Armor in terms of survivability and wielding a shield offers additional DPS opportunities with the Vanguard Tree (Holy Sword applies to shields as well) so in my opinion Evasion isn't worth it.

So, now we are considering a build that is fundamentally different than your original build; A Sword and Board Paladin using Heavy Armor and B. Swords enhanced with the THF Glancing Blows bonuses. To get all that we are going to have to add a few feats to the mix so splashing 2 levels of fighter is probably the best option.

S&B 18 Paladin/ 2 Fighter using B. Sword with Glancing Blows;

Feats: Dragonmark, Sovereign Host, Power Attack, THF Chain (3), Improved Critical (Slashing), B. Sword Proficiency, Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Empowered Healing.

12 APs into Human Tree, At least 6 APs into Sacred Defender for the extra Lay of Hands, and the rest split between Vanguard and KoTC trees.

Just my 2 cents - in truth - anything you build is going to be fine in Heroics and you can tweak things for Epics with a little help from Fred and The Store.

[unbongwah]

Have a look at my drow paladin thread, specifically the pal 15 / rgr 5 split: downside is losing Evasion and rog skills; upside is more feats, a solid ranged DPS options (Manyshot+Holy Sword), and Dance of Death. EDIT: pal 14 / rgr 6 is also an option; give up Zeal for two more feats and possibly lvl 6 rgr core enhs.