Pure or Splash

[ThomasHunter]

A little while ago, I asked about potential Khopesh builds. I've decided on either a pure pally or 15Pally/3Ranger/2Rogue. Both builds will be 2WF. The latter would have evasion and disable skills (I do have a +3 INT tome). The former would use heavy armor and have a fair amount of MRR and PRR.

I believe that I would go human on both builds. What I am hoping to determine with the help of the community is whether one of these is better than the other. I'm simply not sure.

Of note is that I have recently built a SB that splashes rogue and fighter which takes the place of this character so going pure has some appeal. That said, I do tend to like being able to be a good utility player.

I am closing in on my 6 million karma for the additional 3% DS and have enough mats to build a Min2 Khopesh. Heavy armor or evasion in light armor? That is the question!

Many thanks all and I much appreciate the help and thoughts on the forums!:cool:

[Thalone]

Let's say you have 100 PRR/MRR in heavy armour (easy to achieve).

According to the formulae (http://ddowiki.com/page/PRR), and assuming your BAB is 20ish:

Heavy armour: PRR/MRR 100 = 50% reduction.

Light armour: PRR/MRR 56 (-30 from weight, -14 from BAB) = ~33% reduction.

So, in EE Gianthold with stuff whacking you for 300, a 17% difference would be about 51 HPs.

Also, the PRR and MRR curves have decreasing returns, so the higher you can get them without taking into account the weight of your armour, the less effect the weight of your armour actually has. E.g., if you could get to 200 in heavy, light would be 156. The final difference in this case would be about 6%.

My gut feeling is that you will feel an obvious net benefit in light armour due to more Dodge and Evasion stacked on top of it, though you will get stance bonuses in heavy armour if you invest in the Defender tree to offset this somewhat.

[JamesNiels]

Know that you need to wear medium/heavy armor or a shield to get the +6 con, +6 str and +20% HP from the sacred defender tree.
If you ask me you wont miss evasion with +-100 or more MRR and paladin saves... 600 damage becomes 300 after a succesfull reflex save, which will become 150 after MRR reduction.

Another thing worth mentioning if you like epic levels... the thunderforged shadowscale armor light armor only comes with 2d6 more sneak damage, the heavy armor gives 60 DR when under 75% HP, 30 when 76-100%. This DR is pretty sweet.

[goodspeed]

Know that you need to wear medium/heavy armor or a shield to get the +6 con, +6 str and +20% HP from the sacred defender tree.
If you ask me you wont miss evasion with +-100 or more MRR and paladin saves... 600 damage becomes 300 after a succesfull reflex save, which will become 150 after MRR reduction.

Another thing worth mentioning if you like epic levels... the thunderforged shadowscale armor light armor only comes with 2d6 more sneak damage, the heavy armor gives 60 DR when under 75% HP, 30 when 76-100%. This DR is pretty sweet.

ya currently you should have more then enough to take on the dmg of traps. It's actually kinda sad that evasion isn't really needed. Basically grab a bladeforged, build for dps and go to town with hella self healing.

Dont even need cleave or great cleave now cause the pally tree gives them.

You could even go for 2 arti and scroll urself. or add a lil extra. I'd say either that or 5 ranger for rams and the other thing.

[adrian69]

My gut feeling is that you will feel an obvious net benefit in light armour due to more Dodge and Evasion stacked on top of it, though you will get stance bonuses in heavy armour if you invest in the Defender tree to offset this somewhat.

Honestly, I did both heavy armor and high saves and light armor/evasion/dodge capped monk splash. Heavy armor wins hands up. I died several times through traps in light armor (no mith/adamantine feat) in Von3, but could stand in traps in the heavy armor (adamantine feat) while only taking 20-150 dmg depending on epic difficulty.

[Gnarkh]

+1 on the 'heavy armor works' thing.

Although champions might stir up things a little here :).

Don't take it personal, Thalone, but your gut feeling regarding the relative value of higher levels of PRR might mislead you. (Brain is bad at percentages, mine is as well...)

In absolute damage numbers, it's correct that adding 10 PRR on top of an existing 10 PRR reduces a lower amount. (Which indeed is important, as we're basically countering incoming damage with a fixed amount of healing)

In relative terms of survivability however ("how long does my tank survive without being healed"), each point of PRR has really the same value as in 'which percent of damage is reduced compared to not having that point of PRR.'

--- math incoming ---

The math flaw is: If you calculate the real value of '1 more PRR' relative to having no reduction at all, the results get faulty. Instead, you need to calculate it relative to already reduced damage before you add that point of PRR.

If the formula would use percentages with a fixed increase, tank stats would be horribly broken, unless they have a hard cap like dodge (which is a very strong stat for the same reason, as every % you stack, adds more relative value). Example:

- Adding 50% damage reduction to 0%, the increase in reduced damage is (you might have guessed) 50%.

- Now, if with the same amount of PRR you now could add a flat 50% more, the relative difference in reduced damage would be a whopping (and harder to guess gut-wise) infinite increase in reduction.

That's why formulas like these have a diminishing percentage. The relative value stays the same, however, for each point of PRR.

--- math done, yay ---

Actually this also means that at high levels PRR becomes even more effective, as there's some awesome synergy going on with the other 'flat' means of reduction and avoidance.

It also makes every point of HP more valuable and prevents dangerous damage spikes you'll still have, if you rely mainly on avoidance stats (blur / ghostly / dodge / miss chance / evasion).

This also kinda explains, why while the numbers suggest the difference between medium and heavy armor is small-ish, everyone using heavy armor will from first hand experience tell you how much more survivable it makes you. It's also a reason why people still invest in Toughness or Epic Toughness with good results.

[Neomarica]

+1 on the 'heavy armor works' thing.

Although champions might stir up things a little here :).

Don't take it personal, Thalone, but your gut feeling regarding the relative value of higher levels of PRR might mislead you. (Brain is bad at percentages, mine is as well...)

In absolute damage numbers, it's correct that adding 10 PRR on top of an existing 10 PRR reduces a lower amount. (Which indeed is important, as we're basically countering incoming damage with a fixed amount of healing)

In relative terms of survivability however ("how long does my tank survive without being healed"), each point of PRR has really the same value as in 'which percent of damage is reduced compared to not having that point of PRR.'

--- math incoming ---

The math flaw is: If you calculate the real value of '1 more PRR' relative to having no reduction at all, the results get faulty. Instead, you need to calculate it relative to already reduced damage before you add that point of PRR.

If the formula would use percentages with a fixed increase, tank stats would be horribly broken, unless they have a hard cap like dodge (which is a very strong stat for the same reason, as every % you stack, adds more relative value). Example:

- Adding 50% damage reduction to 0%, the increase in reduced damage is (you might have guessed) 50%.

- Now, if with the same amount of PRR you now could add a flat 50% more, the relative difference in reduced damage would be a whopping (and harder to guess gut-wise) infinite increase in reduction.

That's why formulas like these have a diminishing percentage. The relative value stays the same, however, for each point of PRR.

--- math done, yay ---

Actually this also means that at high levels PRR becomes even more effective, as there's some awesome synergy going on with the other 'flat' means of reduction and avoidance.

It also makes every point of HP more valuable and prevents dangerous damage spikes you'll still have, if you rely mainly on avoidance stats (blur / ghostly / dodge / miss chance / evasion).

This also kinda explains, why while the numbers suggest the difference between medium and heavy armor is small-ish, everyone using heavy armor will from first hand experience tell you how much more survivable it makes you. It's also a reason why people still invest in Toughness or Epic Toughness with good results.

If you have 0 PRR, adding 100 PRR reduces the incoming damage by 1/2. If you have 100 PRR, adding 100 PRR reduces the incoming damage by 2/3, or 1/3 relative to the damage you were taking before. So no, the relative value does NOT stay the same.

[Gnarkh]

If you have 0 PRR, adding 100 PRR reduces the incoming damage by 1/2. If you have 100 PRR, adding 100 PRR reduces the incoming damage by 2/3, or 1/3 relative to the damage you were taking before. So no, the relative value does NOT stay the same.

Actually I'm rereading the wiki and you're absolutely right.

I'm pretty sure I went through the PRR math before and wonder if it used to work the way I described and they changed it in update 23?

I'm still convinced even at high levels, PRR is a very strong stat. Just from experience, I'm leveling two paladins at the moment, one with TWF and one with a shield build. While I gear them a little bit differently, the difference in survivability is considerable.

Thanks for correcting this, very interesting.

[ThomasHunter]

While I gear them a little bit differently, the difference in survivability is considerable.


What did you mean by this off hand?

Also, I just reached the 6 mil karma threshold and am pretty much ready to TR (have to find a shroud group to make my Min2 kopesh though first). I am probably going with the pure 20 pally in heavy armor. Sounds darn tough!

Is human simply better for the extra feat? Could a ML or PDK or (dare I say) Drow work better perhaps? I'll have to run some initial numbers.

Something that always seems a bit "confusing" to me however is whether to increase CHR or STR. I've seen the arguments, but it isn't clear. I love the idea of high saves and survivability. I'd increase that and cut some DPS (I tend to like that better). Also, a clear lack of any crowd control has me worried for sure.

Thanks all!

[unbongwah]

Is human simply better for the extra feat? Could a ML or PDK or (dare I say) Drow work better perhaps?
Human is usually best: not just for extra feat, but also for heal amp, extra skill pts, Dmg Boost (which stacks w/KotC Melee Power boost), and +1 stat. PDK is basically just human + mandatory 1st lvl of ftr (can be LR +1ed out of) - Dragonmarks + PDK enhancements (Cormyrian Knight Training etc.).

[Doutrinador]

Human is usually best: not just for extra feat, but also for heal amp, extra skill pts, Dmg Boost (which stacks w/KotC Melee Power boost), and +1 stat. PDK is basically just human + mandatory 1st lvl of ftr (can be LR +1ed out of) - Dragonmarks + PDK enhancements (Cormyrian Knight Training etc.).

Did you consider 14 pally and 6 ranger? 14 pally for holy sword and 6 ranger for feats, 10% off hand and manyshot.

[unbongwah]

Did you consider 14 pally and 6 ranger? 14 pally for holy sword and 6 ranger for feats, 10% off hand and manyshot.
Yes, the downside is giving up a 2nd lvl 4 spell slot, which means dropping Zeal, a net DPS loss (I think); although picking up Exposing Strike or Sniper Shot is nice if you have the APs for it.

Another option if you're going the THF/SWF route is pal 15 / rgr 4 / ftr 1: rgr 4 gets you 3 ranged feats, Ram's Might, and whatever you can pick up from the AA or DWS trees; ftr 1 gets you an extra feat and extra action boost. This would also work for a TWF build, ofc, but I wouldn't want to give up Dance of Death.

[ThomasHunter]

After reading this and the other related thread, I went with Human 15/5 Pally/Ranger split. So far, it's decent enough. I'm hoping the DPS picks up though!

[Loromir]

After reading this and the other related thread, I went with Human 15/5 Pally/Ranger split. So far, it's decent enough. I'm hoping the DPS picks up though!


What level are you? you won't really start seeing the best DPS until lv 14/15 range (that is 14 lvls of Pally when Holy Sword kicks in).

[mikarddo]

If you have 0 PRR, adding 100 PRR reduces the incoming damage by 1/2. If you have 100 PRR, adding 100 PRR reduces the incoming damage by 2/3, or 1/3 relative to the damage you were taking before. So no, the relative value does NOT stay the same.

If you have 1000 hp and 0 prr you can take 1000 damage before you reach zero.
If you add 100 prr you take half damage and can thus take 2000 incoming damage.
Now add another 100 prr and you take a third damage and can thus take 3000 incoming damage.

Each point of prr is worth exactly 1% of your hp in this sense.

[ThomasHunter]

What level are you? you won't really start seeing the best DPS until lv 14/15 range (that is 14 lvls of Pally when Holy Sword kicks in).

I've designed the build to get in the 5 Ranger levels by 12 to use Dance of Death. That means I won't get Holy Sword for quite some time. Oh well.

I am currently at 7 (5Pally/2Ranger).