Improved Critical: Bludgeon --> shields???

[redoubt]

Is improved Critical Bludgeon supposed to work on shields?

Thanks.

[bartharok]

Is improved Critical Bludgeon supposed to work on shields?

Thanks.

No. The feat lists what it works on, and shields are not included.

[Scrabbler]

Is improved Critical Bludgeon supposed to work on shields?
Shields intentionally do not benefit from any Imp Crit feat that works with melee weapons, because that would encourag S&B builds to use that category of weapon.

In particular, they don't want Vanguard characters to prefer a Warhammer over a Longsword or Scimitar.

[redoubt]

No. The feat lists what it works on, and shields are not included.

yeah, I saw that. I was hoping it was wrong... 8(

[bartharok]

yeah, I saw that. I was hoping it was wrong... 8(

Would be nice for it to work, yes.

[FranOhmsford]

Shields intentionally do not benefit from any Imp Crit feat that works with melee weapons, because that would encourag S&B builds to use that category of weapon.

In particular, they don't want Vanguard characters to prefer a Warhammer over a Longsword or Scimitar.

Of course the opposite currently applies!

Warhammers are currently and have been as long as I've been playing DDO an unpopular weapon choice for a number of reasons:

1) They don't get THF Bonuses unlike B-Swords and D-Axes

2) They're not a Favoured Weapon unlike Long Swords and Heavy Maces

3) Named Warhammers are few and far between and the best of the lot {Earthshatter} is only really good against one SUB-category of mobs!

4) They don't have a high crit profile unlike Heavy Picks and Khops.

I'm sure there's more reasons but these should suffice to show why this decision by the Devs is nonsensical!

I'll add two more though - Morningstars and Battle Axes!
Just like Warhammers these suffer all the same issues!

Weapons need a reason to be used and Warhammers, Morningstars and Battle Axes don't have that reason!

Heavy Maces beat Morningstars for Clerics and just how many Clerics {not just built Morninglords} do we see wielding Hvy Maces?
D-Axes and B-Swords are out on their own for Tanks
Long Swords are the weapon of choice for feat starved Pallies
Khops, Rapiers and Picks are far superior for TWF

Even Dwarves don't get Warhammer as a Favoured Weapon - A ridiculous oversight!



Allowing Shields to benefit from Imp Crit: Bludgeon would make Warhammer, Morningstar and Hvy Mace use that bit more viable.
It certainly wouldn't make them OP!
AND
I doubt they'd equal D-Axe or B-Sword for Fighters/Pallies OR Long Sword, Greatsword, Q-Staff or Wraps for Clerics/Souls even with that boost!

[Blackheartox]

Of course the opposite currently applies!

Warhammers are currently and have been as long as I've been playing DDO an unpopular weapon choice for a number of reasons:

1) They don't get THF Bonuses unlike B-Swords and D-Axes

2) They're not a Favoured Weapon unlike Long Swords and Heavy Maces

3) Named Warhammers are few and far between and the best of the lot {Earthshatter} is only really good against one SUB-category of mobs!

4) They don't have a high crit profile unlike Heavy Picks and Khops.

I'm sure there's more reasons but these should suffice to show why this decision by the Devs is nonsensical!

I'll add two more though - Morningstars and Battle Axes!
Just like Warhammers these suffer all the same issues!

Weapons need a reason to be used and Warhammers, Morningstars and Battle Axes don't have that reason!

Heavy Maces beat Morningstars for Clerics and just how many Clerics {not just built Morninglords} do we see wielding Hvy Maces?
D-Axes and B-Swords are out on their own for Tanks
Long Swords are the weapon of choice for feat starved Pallies
Khops, Rapiers and Picks are far superior for TWF

Even Dwarves don't get Warhammer as a Favoured Weapon - A ridiculous oversight!



Allowing Shields to benefit from Imp Crit: Bludgeon would make Warhammer, Morningstar and Hvy Mace use that bit more viable.
It certainly wouldn't make them OP!
AND
I doubt they'd equal D-Axe or B-Sword for Fighters/Pallies OR Long Sword, Greatsword, Q-Staff or Wraps for Clerics/Souls even with that boost!


I dont know fran, i use warhammers on a variety of my builds, double mjorhns and i even wasted my hard earned phlogs to make 2 t3 thforged warhammers.
You cant claim they are bad since they are endgame one of best weapons for 2 weapon fight builds

[FranOhmsford]

I dont know fran, i use warhammers on a variety of my builds, double mjorhns and i even wasted my hard earned phlogs to make 2 t3 thforged warhammers.
You cant claim they are bad since they are endgame one of best weapons for 2 weapon fight builds

I never said they were "bad" because I knew there would be at least one person to refute that claim!

I simply stated the FACTS!

Double Mjohrns and Thunderforged may be able to balance things out at End-Game but I don't believe that End-Game is the ONLY part of this game that COUNTS!
And even then:
- Are TF Warhammers really equal to TF Khops or Rapiers or Hvy Picks for TWF?
- Do Mjohrns really beat out Nightmares or Balizardes? {And what were the Devs thinking when they created Tinah?}
- Can Warhammers EVER beat D-Axes or B-Swords for S+B except against Skeletons?
- Is there a reason other than Flavour for going Warhammer Spec on a Dwarven Cleric?

OR

Do you simply use Mjorhns/TF because of MoD and /Bludgeon DR?
Because if so:
There's more than one quest in this game!

[FranOhmsford]

Discounting Specific Weapon Choices that are out and out superior for that Weapon
and
Discounting Specific Mob DRs

what are the reasons other than Flavour for wielding:

Warhammers
Battle Axes
Morningstars
Mauls
Great Clubs
Light Hammers
Light Maces
and sundry others?


How can the Devs Re-balance these weapons without going overboard?

- Warhammers and Morningstars = Easy Fix - Allow Shields to accept Imp. Crit: Bludgeon!

- Battle Axes = ?

- Mauls and Greatclubs = ?

- Light Hammers and Light Maces = ?

- Sundry Others = ?

[Scrabbler]

Warhammers are currently and have been as long as I've been playing DDO an unpopular weapon choice for a number of reasons:
In the distant past, there were some builds who used Warhammers because it was forbidden to have Stunning DC on a slash or pierce weapon. But a couple years ago a dev decided to throw that rule out.


2) They're not a Favoured Weapon unlike Long Swords and Heavy Maces
The Warpriest Favored Weapon doesn't function as a reason to equip any weapon either. I'd like the designers to change that so Longsword and Mace could get in the game.

Or there might be better ways to make Longsword viable. For example, in the real world a Khopesh is flat-out inferior to a Longsword...


- Warhammers and Morningstars = Easy Fix - Allow Shields to accept Imp. Crit: Bludgeon!
That wouldn't fix it. Yes, it would make it less-bad to be a person who wields Warhammer + Shield...
But you'd still be better off with a Slashing crit feat and holding a Scim/Khop/Bast + Shield. Then maybe later if you have a spare slot you can get Bludgeon crit to help your shield.

The thing is that even for a Vanguard build, hits from your Shield doesn't contribute a really high part of your DPS. Making choices to improve it isn't very influential.

[FranOhmsford]

In the distant past, there were some builds who used Warhammers because it was forbidden to have Stunning DC on a slash or pierce weapon. But a couple years ago a dev decided to throw that rule out.

Stunning Blow in those days was more for Maul Builds i.e. specifically a reason to go with Maul over G-Sword/Falc/G-Axe.

Maybe some people used it with Warhammers but this was really a Nerf to Mauls that happened to also affect other weapons at the same time.



The Warpriest Favored Weapon doesn't function as a reason to equip any weapon either. I'd like the designers to change that so Longsword and Mace could get in the game.

I'm not just talking about Warpriest but about all types of Favoured Weapon Feats/Enhancements.

And we all know how in DDO every little extra helps!

It's not much but that +1 deity feat + Enhancements etc. goes a long way to why Long Sword is out and out the most viable all round weapon for feat starved melees like Clerics {because a good half of their feats have to go to Quicken, Empower, Heighten etc.} and non-dwarven/WF Paladins.


Or there might be better ways to make Longsword viable. For example, in the real world a Khopesh is flat-out inferior to a Longsword...

Long Sword already has its niche - A Viable all round weapon for Feat Starved Melees that can't afford to take B-Sword or Khop Prof.

It doesn't have to be the #1 choice even though that's what it always was in PnP!

However: I do agree about the real-world Khop issue even though Khop was superceded by Scimis rather than by Long Swords.
And
Boosting Scimis is hardly necessary!


That wouldn't fix it. Yes, it would make it less-bad to be a person who wields Warhammer + Shield...
But you'd still be better off with a Slashing crit feat and holding a Scim/Khop/Bast + Shield. Then maybe later if you have a spare slot you can get Bludgeon crit to help your shield.

The thing is that even for a Vanguard build, hits from your Shield doesn't contribute a really high part of your DPS. Making choices to improve it isn't very influential.

See...This is why I feel it would be a good idea to make this simple change!

It WOULDN'T make Warhammer & Shield out and out the best choice for S+B Tanks {well maybe for non-dwarf Paladins}!
It WOULDN'T step on the Long Sword or Hvy Mace's toes for Clerics...Who don't get Warhammer Prof anyway and therefore would have to use up TWO Feats!
OH and Heavy Mace would still beat Morningstar for Morninglords as they'd have the extra boost to that weapon on top!

What it would do is make a weapon that's barely used a bit more viable!
And let's face it - Just because some people like TWF with Warhammers {TWFing with Warhammers? REALLY? How exactly does that work? Talk about Min/Maxing!} doesn't mean they don't need boosting slightly!

[Gremmlynn]

Of course the opposite currently applies!

Warhammers are currently and have been as long as I've been playing DDO an unpopular weapon choice for a number of reasons:

1) They don't get THF Bonuses unlike B-Swords and D-Axes

2) They're not a Favoured Weapon unlike Long Swords and Heavy Maces

3) Named Warhammers are few and far between and the best of the lot {Earthshatter} is only really good against one SUB-category of mobs!

4) They don't have a high crit profile unlike Heavy Picks and Khops.

I'm sure there's more reasons but these should suffice to show why this decision by the Devs is nonsensical!

I'll add two more though - Morningstars and Battle Axes!
Just like Warhammers these suffer all the same issues!

Weapons need a reason to be used and Warhammers, Morningstars and Battle Axes don't have that reason!

Heavy Maces beat Morningstars for Clerics and just how many Clerics {not just built Morninglords} do we see wielding Hvy Maces?
D-Axes and B-Swords are out on their own for Tanks
Long Swords are the weapon of choice for feat starved Pallies
Khops, Rapiers and Picks are far superior for TWF

Even Dwarves don't get Warhammer as a Favoured Weapon - A ridiculous oversight!



Allowing Shields to benefit from Imp Crit: Bludgeon would make Warhammer, Morningstar and Hvy Mace use that bit more viable.
It certainly wouldn't make them OP!
AND
I doubt they'd equal D-Axe or B-Sword for Fighters/Pallies OR Long Sword, Greatsword, Q-Staff or Wraps for Clerics/Souls even with that boost!Right in general, but in many places wrong in specifics. There are really only 5 one handed slashing weapons anyone should be using. Really only one one handed piercing weapon, 3 two-handed weapons (all slash) and no blunt weapons unless you count hand wraps. Everything else is a poor choice due to the stats assigned to the weapons. Really just a poor system overall.

Quarterstaves only have a niche due to the devs building a couple enhancement trees around them.

[Gremmlynn]

Long Sword already has its niche - A Viable all round weapon for Feat Starved Melees that can't afford to take B-Sword or Khop Prof.

It doesn't have to be the #1 choice even though that's what it always was in PnP!

However: I do agree about the real-world Khop issue even though Khop was superceded by Scimis rather than by Long Swords.
And
Boosting Scimis is hardly necessary!No boosting scims isn't necessary as it is actually the all round weapon for feat starved melees. Long sword would be a poor choice if one could just as easily use a scimitar due to the wider crit range and very small drop off in base damage.

[FranOhmsford]

Right in general, but in many places wrong in specifics. There are really only 5 one handed slashing weapons anyone should be using. Really only one one handed piercing weapon, 3 two-handed weapons (all slash) and no blunt weapons unless you count hand wraps. Everything else is a poor choice due to the stats assigned to the weapons. Really just a poor system overall.

Quarterstaves only have a niche due to the devs building a couple enhancement trees around them.

Exactly what "specifics" in my post were "objectively" wrong?

Your "subjective" opinion that only certain weapons should be used at all doesn't change the actual facts!


Quarterstaves don't have a niche btw - They're objectively one of the best weapon choices {if not the best!} for certain builds! {Hardly a Niche!}.
That's like saying G-Axes have a niche!


Now let's look at some fairly standard build types:

1) The S+B Tank - Whether full on Intimi Tank or trying to get DPS into the mix too - B-Sword and D-Axe are the main choices here.

2) The Barbarian - Greatsword, G-Axe, Falchion

3) The TWFighter - Khops, Rapiers, Scimis or Picks

4) The SWFighter/Rogue/Swashbuckler - Rapiers

5) The Battle Cleric - Long Sword, Scimi, Hvy Mace

6) The Clonk - Wraps or Staff

7) The Archer - Longbow

8) The Arti - Repeater

9} The WF Battle Caster - Greatsword or Falchion {Maybe stick Staff in there for Skelly bashing}.

10) Elven Battle Caster - Staff, Scimi or Falchion

11) The Sorc/PM - Staff

12) The Acrobat - Staff

13) The Pure Monk - Wraps


There's a problem in DDO where a few weapons are too far ahead BUT let's not ask for too much as we know the Devs tend to go overboard.

Let's ask for something we KNOW isn't going to take a weaker weapon and make it into the outright obvious #1 choice!


Allowing Imp. Crit: Bludgeon to affect shields would go a long way towards making Warhammers, Morningstars and even Hvy & Light Maces more viable options for multiple Builds.
What it WON'T do is make them OP!
What it especially WON'T do is help TWFighters - Seemingly the ONLY people currently using Warhammers anyway!

[BigErkyKid]

No boosting scims isn't necessary as it is actually the all round weapon for feat starved melees. Long sword would be a poor choice if one could just as easily use a scimitar due to the wider crit range and very small drop off in base damage.

As far as I can tell, they just took the base weapons from DnD.

Enhancements, special weapons and the rest is what causes the imbalance.

Now that we live in the world without balance, creating a lot more niche weapons and cool odd builds (swash for instance) is the way to go, IMHO.

[Ganak]

To OP: IC:B does not work with shields indeed. If you are looking at a Vanguard S&B, do not let it discourage you. Shields hit like a truck.



I've had a TWF dual warhammer toon for 6+ years. I had him as a battlebard for a long time, then a pure fighter, now I have him as a pure sun elf ranger, dex based, trying to take advantage of the sun elf tier 4 enhancement Grace: "You may use your Dexterity modifier to determine the damage you deal with Morningstars, Maces, and Hammers."

Lackluster is the results. Still searching, but have almost given up and been thinking of trying SWF with a war hammer.

[Scrabbler]

Exactly what "specifics" in my post were "objectively" wrong?
It is objectively wrong to say that Longsword is an adequate weapon for melee characters who don't know Khopesh.

The only builds where Longswords could make sense (as a generic weapon type) are ones who have proficiency in Longsword but not Scimitar, Rapier, Kukri, or Pick (and who don't care about Centered). That eliminates Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, Bard, Wizard, Sorcerer, Artificer, and Druid. The only things left are Cleric or FVS, only if non-Elf, and only if you've got a very odd desire to be halfway good at melee but not all the way.

[FranOhmsford]

It is objectively wrong to say that Longsword is an adequate weapon for melee characters who don't know Khopesh.

No...It's NOT!

That's a purely subjective view - Nothing objective about it!

Note the word "adequate" which you yourself have used - There's very few weapon types in DDO that could honestly be stated to be completely useless and not many more that couldn't be considered at the very least "adequate"!

I never said that Long Sword was at the top of the tree!
I never said that nothing could compete with Long Swords!

I said that when it comes to Feat Starved Melees and Battle Clerics who make use of a Shield Long Swords are a better choice than most other weapons {incl. Warhammers and Morningstars!}.


Now if you want to say that that build is a bad build - Well maybe it is compared to Clonks or Greatsword wielding FavSouls - Maybe it is nothing more than a Healbot Build after all.
BUT
What you're doing here is using Min/Maxing as your Baseline!

For Min/Maxers of course Long Swords are no good - There isn't a single Build in DDO where the Longsword is the top choice!
BUT
Neither is there a single Build in DDO where:
-Mauls, Greatclubs, Warhammers, Battle Axes, Heavy Maces, Morningstars, Short Swords, Light Hammers, Light Maces, Shortbows, Great X-Bows, Hvy X-Bows, Light X-Bows, Light Repeater X-Bows, Daggers, Kukris, Kamas or Sickles are the top choice either!

Greataxes
Falchions
Greatswords
Quarterstaves
Wraps
B-Swords
D-Axes
Khops
Scimis
Rapiers
Hvy Picks
Longbows
Hvy Repeaters
Shurikens


From a Min/Max point of view literally every other weapon type is utter trash!

So forget Min/Maxing and some weapons still have their niches:

Longswords
Daggers
Kukris
Mauls
Heavy Maces
Short Swords

These are OK for now!

Then there's the list of Weapons that could do with a Boost:

Warhammers
Morningstars
Battle Axes
Kamas
Short Bows
Sickles
Light Maces

And finally the total wastes of space:

Every X-Bow that's not a Hvy Repeater!
Light Hammers
Greatclubs
Throwing Daggers, Darts, Axes and Hammers

[redoubt]

To OP: IC:B does not work with shields indeed. If you are looking at a Vanguard S&B, do not let it discourage you. Shields hit like a truck.


.

What got me started on this was working through pali past lives. (I go all out for them, because I try to give each class it fair shake and I actually gear up and try to make good builds as I go.)

I'm working a human paladin. tower shield, bastard sword, 2x shield master, imp bash, THF line, imp crit slash and "imp crit shield". Wait, that last one doesn't seem to exist.

Anyway, I've not found shields and armor that I really like on the way to 24 and so I crafted my own. My most recent shield was a planeforged shield. I put IMPACT and stunning on it. The damage profile was as follows:

100.10
5.5[2d6]+7, 13-20x4

It was so good that Bastion appeared to be far behind. So at level 24 I took Imp crit: bludgeon in hopes that bastion would catch up. It did not. It only reached

87.2
6[2d6]+8, 16-20x4

If imp crit: bludgeon applied to shields, I would keep it and have both crit and bludgeon, but since I cannot crit skeletons (only reason to use a blunt weapon instead of a b.sword) I plan to swap it out.

Thanks for all the replies guys. Maybe we can generate some interest in this with the devs.

[FestusHood]

Have the devs actually stated that improved critical doesn't work with shields for flavor reasons? Not saying they didn't, i just don't remember seeing it.

I always assumed imp crit bludgeon didn't work on shields because they were not actually coded as weapons. Sort of like how some things don't work with handwraps.

If crafting impact onto a shield works, i see no reason improved critical shouldn't. Ironically, if they wanted to fix this, they would have to mess with Cannith crafting, so it's got some kind of like, developmatic immunity.

Only problem is, they added all the crit range extensions to vanguard with the premise that improved critical didn't work.

[SealedInSong]

"Developmatic immunity" is hilarious and should definitely be a future quest.

I've been trying to figure out whom in my cast of characters should TR into a pure vanguard with full ****** tactics, and it appears it doesn't matter what imp. crit feat or mainhand weapon I use.

That's both a relief but also very silly that someone couldn't spec making some kind of crazy shield-only focus character. That's exactly the type of flavor that I really enjoy.

I bet it's as Festus said, and that shields were coded as some kind of separate entity just like handwraps, and thus it would take more time for them to make the system make sense than to just leave it confusing and broken as is.

That said, if they did go out of their way to make imp crit bludgeon work with shields, I don't think it would be any more pigeon-holing than any other type of synergy. People would still want to make vanguards and shield characters that use slashing or piercing weapons, and they'd just have to suck it up and except a worse crit range with their shield or invest the way anyone else has to when they want to use a different weapon system.

[Eth]

Neither is there a single Build in DDO where:
-Mauls, Greatclubs, Warhammers, Battle Axes, Heavy Maces, Morningstars, Short Swords, Light Hammers, Light Maces, Shortbows, Great X-Bows, Hvy X-Bows, Light X-Bows, Light Repeater X-Bows, Daggers, Kukris, Kamas or Sickles are the top choice either!


Actually there is if you check out my 15ranger/4pally/1fighter build, which does use warhammers.
But it's very niche and only is the best choice in epics in legendary dreadnaught, since rangers don't get any critical profile enhancements, so pulverizer is a choice to make up for it and puts warhammers on par with khopesh for that build (actually ahead when the build was created, since I used Mornhs back then), without needing to invest into a feat.

I agree though the weapon classes you listed could use more love (except shortswords, there are plenty builds around using those and daggers, which are great for assasins).

[redoubt]

That said, if they did go out of their way to make imp crit bludgeon work with shields, I don't think it would be any more pigeon-holing than any other type of synergy. People would still want to make vanguards and shield characters that use slashing or piercing weapons, and they'd just have to suck it up and except a worse crit range with their shield or invest the way anyone else has to when they want to use a different weapon system.

Actually, I figured out that it didn't work when I had BOTH imp crit: slash and imp crit: bludgeon. (I was going to keep both, I was willing to pay the feat cost, but it just didn't/doesn't work.)