Melee After U23: Balance Achieved?

[BigErkyKid]

Quite some time ago I posted a thread on melee balance. The main question was whether mortal fear and blitz dominated the elite melee scene and whether there were viable alternatives to those two options. You can find the thread here: State of end game melee (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/444944-The-state-of-end-game-melee-Blitz-mortal-fear-and-what-else)

Past U23 a lot of the issues that came up in that thread have been corrected. Melees deal more damage (MP) and are far more survivable (PRR/MRR). However, I now have two big questions: (EDIT: removed the references to MF)

1. Can we say we have achieved balance between ranged and melee archetypes?

This is now mostly overlooked. As we have become more powerful wrt content, melee lovers are happy with their new found uberness. However, can we say that balance has been restored?

To find an answer I propose a challenge in the spirit of the original thread. Since lama has been up for a while, I bet you guys are eager to try new things.

Challenge 1: Raids!

Can you duo the following raids on two melees on any difficulty:

- Fire on Thunder Peak
- The Fall of Truth
- Caught in the Web.

As usual, video required. Thanks and I hope that some people have fun with the challenge!

Challenge 1 contenders:

Provisional (pending videos):

- Kiingbleed and Erkid: FOT EN (15 minutes)

SS (http://i.imgur.com/MCRBwU5.png)
SS2 (i.imgur.com/t44WGRa.png)

Provisional (pending videos):

- Descone and Erkid: CITW EH (a looooong time - had issues in 2nd belly) but no reentries.

SS (http://i.imgur.com/y0AgAvK.png)
SS2 (http://i.imgur.com/WHaMYJA.png)

[Therrias]

Quite some time ago I posted a thread on melee balance. The main question was whether mortal fear and blitz dominated the elite melee scene and whether there were viable alternatives to those two options. You can find the thread here: State of end game melee (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/444944-The-state-of-end-game-melee-Blitz-mortal-fear-and-what-else)

Past U23 a lot of the issues that came up in that thread have been corrected. Melees deal more damage (MP) and are far more survivable (PRR/MRR). However, I now have two big questions:

1. What is the real value of MF?

2. Can we say we have achieved balance between ranged and melee archetypes?

Question 1 is perhaps less important but nevertheless something that irks me. Is MF still a key component of uber DPS? I am well aware that post U23 many styles and builds have become viable, but how much do awe inspiring achievements depend on MF?

The second question is now mostly overlooked. As we have become more powerful wrt content, melee lovers are happy with their new found uberness. However, can we say that balance has been restored?

To find an answer I propose a challenge in the spirit of the original thread. Since lama has been up for a while, I bet you guys are eager to try new things.

Challenge 1: The value of MF.

Competition A: What is the fastest time you can achieve in breaking the ranks EE without MF?

Competition B: How about with MF?

All builds allowed except druid /ranger exploits.

Challenge 2: Raids!

Can you duo the following raids on two melees on any difficulty:

- Fire on Thunder Peak
- The Fall of Truth
- Caught in the Web.

As usual, video required. Thanks and I hope that some people have fun with the challenge!

Balance achieved? No.

No video required.

[DarthCaedus]

Melees are by far the best builds in the game even if many do rely on exploits.

Nobody is going link a video and have their benefits nerfed.

[jalont]

I've done a two caster lives, one moncher and two melee since the update. The pendulum has swung the other way, and now melee are overpowered. There's no reason to be anything but a pure paladin or a 15 paladin/5 ranger.

[BigErkyKid]

Melees are very strong wrt to content, granted.

But can you duo those raids on your uber melees?

The challenge is quite specific. Needless to say, a variety of ranged characters have done those raids duo, some solo, in EE.

PS - As usual, the policy is not to answer to the bait.

[Qhualor]

Quite some time ago I posted a thread on melee balance. The main question was whether mortal fear and blitz dominated the elite melee scene and whether there were viable alternatives to those two options. You can find the thread here: State of end game melee (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/444944-The-state-of-end-game-melee-Blitz-mortal-fear-and-what-else)

Past U23 a lot of the issues that came up in that thread have been corrected. Melees deal more damage (MP) and are far more survivable (PRR/MRR). However, I now have two big questions:

1. What is the real value of MF?

2. Can we say we have achieved balance between ranged and melee archetypes?

Question 1 is perhaps less important but nevertheless something that irks me. Is MF still a key component of uber DPS? I am well aware that post U23 many styles and builds have become viable, but how much do awe inspiring achievements depend on MF?

The second question is now mostly overlooked. As we have become more powerful wrt content, melee lovers are happy with their new found uberness. However, can we say that balance has been restored?

To find an answer I propose a challenge in the spirit of the original thread. Since lama has been up for a while, I bet you guys are eager to try new things.

Challenge 1: The value of MF.

Competition A: What is the fastest time you can achieve in breaking the ranks EE without MF?

Competition B: How about with MF?

All builds allowed except druid /ranger exploits.

Challenge 2: Raids!

Can you duo the following raids on two melees on any difficulty:

- Fire on Thunder Peak
- The Fall of Truth
- Caught in the Web.

As usual, video required. Thanks and I hope that some people have fun with the challenge!

ill say the same things I said in that other thread.

how will this prove any kind of balance with fast completion? fast does not always mean strong build that can complete content or show much skill. your "challenge" of duoing raids is aimed at the small subset of the population. how will 1-5% of the population represent balance? even less since you wont likely get more than a handful of people to post a video and you want this to answer the questions if MF is still good or not since the last changes and balance for melees has been achieved?

its real easy to find out for yourself if you don't let the skewed opinions of the forums dissuade you and know how to at least decently build a melee.

[BigErkyKid]

your "challenge" of duoing raids is aimed at the small subset of the population. how will 1-5% of the population represent balance?

This people represent what you can do if you take a build to its limits. Of course it is a measure of balance.

You may not like it, or find it informative. Same as in the other thread. However, I do and I am pretty sure some people would be quite interested in seeing melees duo those raids. You always learn a few build tricks.

[Oxarhamar]

You tell us oh Hero of Heroes.

Can you solo EE now?
Can you make us a video?

Have you bothered to run Deathwyrm enough to craft MF or do you still insist it takes too long?
Can you show us a screenshot?

Can you duo those raids?
Can you make us a video?



Your obsessed with MF if a build actually does At least moderate DPS trash dies so fast MF Proc doesn't even matter.
How do I know? Well I have MF and I have DPS it's makes little difference swapping from LVL 23 CITW gear to LVL 28 MF EE mobs just melt away.
Divine Crusaider, Legendary Dreadnaught, Fury of the Wild.... Yea MF is weak compared to these.

run EE for sagas while leveling to cap, dependant on how much XPing done in between we have run every EE saga before hitting 28 (that's without MF)



As for soloing EE don't you know thanks to scaling solo is the easiest EE difficulty? Try solo EE with 3 pikers standing in the entrance...then we talk otherwise solo EEasy is worthless.

[moo_cow]

peaks duo is doable beside the artifact breaking part where some kind ranged weapon would be required at end or if you insist on being a idiot, melle it and suicide.



If you have any sort of fire absorption than the artifact won't kill you. Just put on a fire shield scroll and it won't kill you.

[Blackheartox]

If you have any sort of fire absorption than the artifact won't kill you. Just put on a fire shield scroll and it won't kill you.

Right i forgot mrr now. /did my 60 runs of this raid as what was it, sorc i think so only thing i noticed is lotsa melle dying when it was breaking ;)

[Monkey-Boy]

I've done a two caster lives, one moncher and two melee since the update. The pendulum has swung the other way, and now melee are overpowered. There's no reason to be anything but a pure paladin or a 15 paladin/5 ranger.

What non-palladin/bard melee builds are over-powered?

[BigErkyKid]

I've done a two caster lives, one moncher and two melee since the update. The pendulum has swung the other way, and now melee are overpowered. There's no reason to be anything but a pure paladin or a 15 paladin/5 ranger.

OP with respect to what?

Yes, they deal a lot more damage, perhaps even more than some other builds if we average it out over the quest duration. They also survive pretty well. So now they can beat quests more easily / aside from blitzing and using MF.

But are they more powerful than ranged? The issue is that now that all the hard quests have been soloed in the highest difficulty, the last frontier is raids. Quests are no longer the measuring stick. I have yet to see melees soloing the current raids and the achievements thread is quite empty in that respect.

Hence my challenge. As usual there will be a lot of trash talk, people attacking me for posting, claims that someone can do it (but refuses to post evidence nevertheless), etc.

Perhaps, though, mixed with all the trash we can find someone who can prove that melees stand second to no one after the update. Even in raids. Or maybe not, we'll see.

[moo_cow]

I don't have any tf weapons without Mortal Fear. I have no reason not to have it. Can't do the challenge :P and I have no desire to run this quest with my crappy antipodes. I can do with but that really doesn't make a comparison when there is nothing to compare it to

[BigErkyKid]

I don't have any tf weapons without Mortal Fear. I have no reason not to have it. Can't do the challenge :P and I have no desire to run this quest with my crappy antipodes. I can do with but that really doesn't make a comparison when there is nothing to compare it to

If you want to, just copy to lama.

Or just post the video with MF.

I honestly care more about the second challenge as I already have the information I needed regarding MF thanks to a kind heart who should remain anonymous :P

[Oxarhamar]

If you want to, just copy to lama.

Or just post the video with MF.

I honestly care more about the second challenge as I already have the information I needed regarding MF thanks to a kind heart who should remain anonymous :P

Anonymous information secreted in PMs that is not peer reviewable holds no value.

[Oxarhamar]

OP with respect to what?

Yes, they deal a lot more damage, perhaps even more than some other builds if we average it out over the quest duration. They also survive pretty well. So now they can beat quests more easily / aside from blitzing and using MF.

But are they more powerful than ranged? The issue is that now that all the hard quests have been soloed in the highest difficulty, the last frontier is raids. Quests are no longer the measuring stick. I have yet to see melees soloing the current raids and the achievements thread is quite empty in that respect.

Hence my challenge. As usual there will be a lot of trash talk, people attacking me for posting, claims that someone can do it (but refuses to post evidence nevertheless), etc.

Perhaps, though, mixed with all the trash we can find someone who can prove that melees stand second to no one after the update. Even in raids. Or maybe not, we'll see.


The issue with Ranged vs. Melees soling raids is not with Power it is with damage avoidance.

Maybe you missed the recent 2 man MOD screenshots ?

[moo_cow]

The issue with Ranged vs. Melees soling raids is not with Power it is with damage avoidance.


This is very true. Kiting vs tanking 3 spectral dragons, TO, and a reaver. Kiting makes it a lot easier to survive.

[BigErkyKid]

So you got your cheats?

Im glad for you.
Will you spare us in the future of those kind of threads?

I feel is only fair to let you know I have reported all your bait.

No, I do not cheat. I am more interested in the math of MF and I am settled with that.

[BigErkyKid]

This is very true. Kiting vs tanking 3 spectral dragons, TO, and a reaver. Kiting makes it a lot easier to survive.

Who has ever said that power is pulling the biggest numbers?

As the recent PRR pass has taught us, damage avoidance / mitigation is an equally important component.

Everyone who plays DDO knows that. But at the end of the day, both damage avoidance and DPS are what they are.

And so far they are such that raids, the single last crowning achievement, can be soloed / duoed by ranged characters but not by melees.

That is so far, so come prove me wrong.

[Oxarhamar]

This is very true. Kiting vs tanking 3 spectral dragons, TO, and a reaver. Kiting makes it a lot easier to survive.

While it's true there have been Videos a Tanks Tanking on EE all 3 spectrals and the reaver in a recent "game is boring" thread.

just a a big DPS melee to do the rest.

[moo_cow]

While it's true there have been Videos a Tanks Tanking on EE all 3 spectrals and the reaver in a recent "game is boring" thread.

just a a big DPS melee to do the rest.

Yes there was a video of terrible dps like this.

[moo_cow]

Who has ever said that power is pulling the biggest numbers?

As the recent PRR pass has taught us, damage avoidance / mitigation is an equally important component.

Everyone who plays DDO knows that. But at the end of the day, both damage avoidance and DPS are what they are.

And so far they are such that raids, the single last crowning achievement, can be soloed / duoed by ranged characters but not by melees.

That is so far, so come prove me wrong.

So what exactly does a solo of a ranged vs a melee in a raid have to do with balance. This game is not balanced around being able to solo ee raids. Ranged can solo these raids because they can kite. Some melee can probably too with some good mitigation.

What you are saying has nothing to do with balance. Cool a ranged can solo an ee raid. That does not mean they are leagues ahead of melee. Lets see a ranged clear through a trash filled quest faster than a melee. Power has to do with dps and being survivable, I tend to value dps higher because anyone with a brain can survive. Anyone can have both, but you are using a scenario is which it is clearly better to be ranged. That would be like saying ranged suck in a scenario where melee clearly has an advantage. So in your mind what exactly does soloing raids have to do with balance?

[BigErkyKid]

So in your mind what exactly does soloing raids have to do with balance?

Both ranged and melee can solo all the quests in the game. Perhaps melees a bit faster, but not by much at a higher failure risk.

So quests are no longer a good measure stick for power. They all can do it, hence they are all equally powerful? Obviously not.

What is harder than quests? Raids. If melees don't measure up to ranged toons in raids it means they are not as powerful.

Couldn't be simpler.

[Rys]

Just out of curiosity. Do you have any experience with any type of full time ranged build?

[BigErkyKid]

Just out of curiosity. Do you have any experience with any type of full time ranged build?

Shurikannon, several sorcs, fvs, druids and wizards. No archer though.

Why?

[Oxarhamar]

Both ranged and melee can solo all the quests in the game. Perhaps melees a bit faster, but not by much at a higher failure risk.

So quests are no longer a good measure stick for power. They all can do it, hence they are all equally powerful? Obviously not.

What is harder than quests? Raids. If melees don't measure up to ranged toons in raids it means they are not as powerful.

Couldn't be simpler.

It's not that simple.

And you know it your just trying to compare the 2 archetypes obtusely because, of your hatred for Ranged being able to kite things.

[Rys]

Shurikannon, several sorcs, fvs, druids and wizards. No archer though.

Why?

Because I don't think that the achievement forum is a good measure of the overall balance between melee and ranged.

[BigErkyKid]

Because I don't think that the achievement forum is a good measure of the overall balance between melee and ranged.

Well, that's why I open it up here. Obviously I can only compare based on my experience and what people report. I know my experience (duh) and that's why I ask here. Last time got a lot of takers (until recently I still got messaged by people who told me they could send new videos in). I think it is fun to try challenges like that. I surely have a ton of fun trying some of them myself.

Does it imply you can present us with a solo / duo melee of any of the raids I mentioned?

[Rys]

Well, that's why I open it up here. Obviously I can only compare based on my experience and what people report. I know my experience (duh) and that's why I ask here. Last time got a lot of takers (until recently I still got messaged by people who told me they could send new videos in). I think it is fun to try challenges like that. I surely have a ton of fun trying some of them myself.

Does it imply you can present us with a solo / duo melee of any of the raids I mentioned?
Since I don't like playing melees, I am not planning to.

[BD_]

Well, that's why I open it up here. Obviously I can only compare based on my experience and what people report. I know my experience (duh) and that's why I ask here. Last time got a lot of takers (until recently I still got messaged by people who told me they could send new videos in). I think it is fun to try challenges like that. I surely have a ton of fun trying some of them myself.

Does it imply you can present us with a solo / duo melee of any of the raids I mentioned?

Not going to do it, because it would be tedious and boring, but I'm absolutely certain I could duo all 3 of those raids on EN with two melees.

[Monkey-Boy]

What non-palladin/bard melee builds are over-powered?

Still waiting for an answer on this, from anyone.

[BDog77]

Still waiting for an answer on this, from anyone.

Barbarian, of course!

(They must be, otherwise they would have actually gotten some DPS in the Barb pass.....)

[axel15810]

It's a lot more balanced than it was.

Melee is not super OP. Melee still has lots of restrictions - has to be up close to do damage, takes a lot more hits, lmited CC options, ect.

Ranged/casting is still very very strong. We still have monkchers soloing epic elite raids able to furyshot the heck out of everything without getting anywhere close to mobs. Casters are still blowing up entire rooms while far away from harm.

I think some ranged/caster players are just getting upset because melees got a buff and they didn't. Doesn't mean ranged/casting is any weaker.

[Grailhawk]

Still waiting for an answer on this, from anyone.

The wolfs with both TWF and SWF.

[J-mann]

I cant believe that I am going to agree with bigerkykid.... but yes, the damage avoidance of ranged is still overshadowing melee should we have any actually hard content to work with. That is where his point of EE solo/dou raids comes from. Because of the limitations of the devs, and the limitations of the AI, kiting is STILL the best defense in the game bar none. Further, if you look at the proposed champion system on lam you will see this in spades. Nearly everything proposed in that is vastly more harmful to a melee simply because..... ranged can kite.

To simplify, Kiting is easily a 90+% damage mitigation, and no other system or combination of systems comes close.

[Oxarhamar]

I cant believe that I am going to agree with bigerkykid.... but yes, the damage avoidance of ranged is still overshadowing melee should we have any actually hard content to work with. That is where his point of EE solo/dou raids comes from. Because of the limitations of the devs, and the limitations of the AI, kiting is STILL the best defense in the game bar none. Further, if you look at the proposed champion system on lam you will see this in spades. Nearly everything proposed in that is vastly more harmful to a melee simply because..... ranged can kite.

To simplify, Kiting is easily a 90+% damage mitigation, and no other system or combination of systems comes close.

Players complain :
Ranged to strong, Melee too weak not enough damage mitigation.

Devs buff Melee

Players complain :
Game too easy, bored now.

Devs propose "Random Champions"

players complain :
ranged too strong, Melee too dangerous.



see where this is going ?

[BigErkyKid]

I cant believe that I am going to agree with bigerkykid.... but yes, the damage avoidance of ranged is still overshadowing melee should we have any actually hard content to work with. That is where his point of EE solo/dou raids comes from. Because of the limitations of the devs, and the limitations of the AI, kiting is STILL the best defense in the game bar none. Further, if you look at the proposed champion system on lam you will see this in spades. Nearly everything proposed in that is vastly more harmful to a melee simply because..... ranged can kite.

To simplify, Kiting is easily a 90+% damage mitigation, and no other system or combination of systems comes close.

Champion system feels like I am being dropped back to EEs before u23. They easily hit 3 times harder than regular mobs. In tharask arena the hobs were hitting me for around 150 with over 100 PRR and DR 30. And again, as usual, huge penalty for melees because you you are backpedalling you can mostly ignore that.

Cheap shot aside, I am glad some people agree.

Now as long as ranged damage is infinitely smaller than close quarters damage and people can pew pew effectively there won't be balance.

Why on earth are powergamers going back to their old monkchers after trying the new paladin? Because it simply isn't as uber. And despite people saying they can duo those raids, I bet very few can do it even on EN. My guess is that EE is simply impossible on a melee for CITW or Fire and Thunder, solo or duo. Both have been soloed / duoed by ranged.

The answer turbine had for our balance concerns was to simply brute force buff melee. Which is what adding +% to damage and +% to damage mitigation is. But the root of the problem, IMO, remains. Since instead of balancing the gameplay what they did was lower the difficulty, now we have the odd situation of having content that is too easy for the well geared vet and yet no balance. Further buffs would simply kill the challenge in the game.

Or maybe I am completely wrong and some people will start posting videos. I don't think I am, despite of the usual forumites doing their thing around here.

[Oxarhamar]

Champion system feels like I am being dropped back to EEs before u23. They easily hit 3 times harder than regular mobs. In tharask arena the hobs were hitting me for around 150 with over 100 PRR and DR 30. And again, as usual, huge penalty for melees because you you are backpedalling you can mostly ignore that.

Cheap shot aside, I am glad some people agree.

Now as long as ranged damage is infinitely smaller than close quarters damage and people can pew pew effectively there won't be balance.

Why on earth are powergamers going back to their old monkchers after trying the new paladin? Because it simply isn't as uber. And despite people saying they can duo those raids, I bet very few can do it even on EN. My guess is that EE is simply impossible on a melee for CITW or Fire and Thunder, solo or duo. Both have been soloed / duoed by ranged.

The answer turbine had for our balance concerns was to simply brute force buff melee. Which is what adding +% to damage and +% to damage mitigation is. But the root of the problem, IMO, remains. Since instead of balancing the gameplay what they did was lower the difficulty, now we have the odd situation of having content that is too easy for the well geared vet and yet no balance. Further buffs would simply kill the challenge in the game.

Or maybe I am completely wrong and some people will start posting videos. I don't think I am, despite of the usual forumites doing their thing around here.

You are wrong about players being capable of these things.

there are screenshot of 2 Melee duo MOD already on the forum.

You are not likely to be proved wrong because, players are not going to go out of thier way to make videos of them dou Melee raids just to appease you every time you decide you want other players to prove your points.

You've already seen the videos of the EE Tank in FOT handling all the spectrals and the stormreaver at once, with a build like that just add one big bad DPS Melee and those 2 could easily duo probably any raid.

[J-mann]

Players complain :
Ranged to strong, Melee too weak not enough damage mitigation.

Devs buff Melee

Players complain :
Game too easy, bored now.

Devs propose "Random Champions"

players complain :
ranged too strong, Melee too dangerous.



see where this is going ?

Yes, Game still too easy for ranged, brutally difficult for melee. Right back where we started. Once again, this is simply because kiting is TOO effective a means of damage mitigation. A semi-decent kiter will out mitigate the best tank, with the best gear, simply by using the horrendous AI to its advantage. The problem lies in the fact that that decked out tank will do a small fraction of the damage, therefore actually mitigating far LESS than the ranged toon. Simply ranged is far too easy to exploit against the AI in this game.

[Monkey-Boy]

Yes, Game still too easy for ranged, brutally difficult for melee.


Wrong.

[Oxarhamar]

Yes, Game still too easy for ranged, brutally difficult for melee. Right back where we started. Once again, this is simply because kiting is TOO effective a means of damage mitigation. A semi-decent kiter will out mitigate the best tank, with the best gear, simply by using the horrendous AI to its advantage. The problem lies in the fact that that decked out tank will do a small fraction of the damage, therefore actually mitigating far LESS than the ranged toon. Simply ranged is far too easy to exploit against the AI in this game.

Sorry mate no matter how badly you want this to be true to get ranged nerfed it won't be true.

Tanks can get high HP high PRR & MRR while still attaining considerable DPS (not top but, not bottom) maybe you don't know how but, players are doing it.

There is a Video of a Melee Tanking EE Reaver & all 3 Spectral Dragons with only self healing while the mobs literally kill themselves against the Tanks gaurd effects. Or maybe you haven't seen that yet?

A semi decent ranged Kiter with all 3 spectrals in EE FoT would have to do much more work and if they made a single mistake or lagged a bit go horribly wrong fast.

[Seikojin]

1. What is the real value of MF?

2. Can we say we have achieved balance between ranged and melee archetypes?



For question 1: DPS is not the meaning of the game to me. Mathematically, it is just a percentage boost to dps calculations. So it falls in line with something like lit2; except the value it adds is a variable. And since it is not the end all be all to me, then I see no real value to it outside of something extra.

For question 2: Not yet. We need the level cap in place, ranged power, and the enhancement and destiny pass to accommodate it. Ultimately it would be like this: Melee is strong offensively and weak defensively (you are hitting the enemy and being hit), Ranged is weak offensively and strong defensively (you are hitting them with projectiles (small), not being hit because of range).

[BigErkyKid]

Wrong.

I bet you or one of your friends can solo about any quest in the game on a melee. People were posting at first solos, then speed solos and after a bit it will be semi naked solos.

Can you say the same for raids?

Not that I think that raids should be solo material, but they are. So if I am to measure the true power of the archetypes I have to use the top content. Unfortunately I can only find this in raids nowadays.

[BigErkyKid]

For question 1: DPS is not the meaning of the game to me. Mathematically, it is just a percentage boost to dps calculations. So it falls in line with something like lit2; except the value it adds is a variable. And since it is not the end all be all to me, then I see no real value to it outside of something extra.

For question 2: Not yet. We need the level cap in place, ranged power, and the enhancement and destiny pass to accommodate it. Ultimately it would be like this: Melee is strong offensively and weak defensively (you are hitting the enemy and being hit), Ranged is weak offensively and strong defensively (you are hitting them with projectiles (small), not being hit because of range).

For 1, the gain is quite sizeable, specially against the variety of minibosses in the game. Let's just say that it is fairly substantial from a pure mathematical perspective and that it scales with mob HPs, making it an awesome long lasting weapon for future content.

Regarding 2, I can only fear the moment they add ranged power, which will necessarily be a buff. Right now it seems that ranged remain at the top of the feeding chain, add a buff and...

What you described is a possibility for ranged. However, there could be others. Making them strong offensively (like they are now), but unable to kite, hence bets used in combination with melees holding aggro. It just depends on how you picture the interactions in the game.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

+1 for the balls to call melees uber and even asking this question after admitting being unable to solo servants of the overlord on a pally.

q1: meh. builds always has been and always will be more important.

q2: neeewpe.

[BigErkyKid]

+1 for the balls to call melees uber and even asking this question after admitting being unable to solo servants of the overlord on a pally.

q1: meh. builds always has been and always will be more important.

q2: neeewpe.

I have no self esteem issues. I had a lot of trouble soloing servants EE on my lvl 22 fleshie THF paladin. No displacement clickies.

It is not admitting because there is nothing shameful about that.

I am pleased with my gameplay given the amount of time invested in the game and I don't think I am on the lower end of the ability distribution in game.

Now in the forums I am sure I am a complete rookie. In a place where melees can solo tough raids EE, people crit with a falchion reguralty around 4k and MF is irrelevant. So I don't give a darn about it because it is a fake fantasy world. Now please be welcome to my ignore list full of toxic people like you.

[TheLegendOfAra]

Why on earth are powergamers going back to their old monkchers after trying the new paladin? Because it simply isn't as uber. And despite people saying they can duo those raids, I bet very few can do it even on EN. My guess is that EE is simply impossible on a melee for CITW or Fire and Thunder, solo or duo. Both have been soloed / duoed by ranged.

They're not jumping back to their old monkchers, unless that's just their preferred style of combat. I had an amazing ranged/melee hybrid build last life that had manyshot and 10K stars and did a ton of DPS. My paladin build this life does way more DPS. I can honestly say when I'm blitzing and I've got 10 stacks(I hate the new blitz btw. Just bloody terrible.) Using manyshot or 10K stars feels weak compared to before.

And by and large most of the people I play with right now who are min/max powergamers? All on Paladin builds.

I have due'd EE CITW on a melee. It was a pain in the ass, mostly because of the lag. But I have done it.
I know several people who have done it. Kiting doesn't mean much in EE CITW, so yeah...

Again, the way you preach balance between melee and ranged doesn't make sense to me.
Melee is undoubtedly more powerful, and now nearly as survivable. The difference between actual combat styles is what is at odds with one another, and the only thing ranged builds can achieve that melee's can't, or struggle with is soling EE raids. I think that's balanced enough.


Or maybe I am completely wrong
You are. As usual in these threads you make.

[Monkey-Boy]

I have no self esteem issues. I had a lot of trouble soloing servants EE on my lvl 22 fleshie THF paladin. No displacement clickies.



Then build some displacement clickies? it's not that difficult.

[BigErkyKid]

Then build some displacement clickies? it's not that difficult.

I have no interest, I do just fine as it is. Earlier levels soloing some EEs becomes more challenging, but I welcome it and won't come crying to the forums for nerfs or what not.

[BigErkyKid]

When every class, and combat style in the game can complete all the content on the highest levels, I don't think debating the balance of the combat styles is a constructive use of time; All things being what they are, if you can complete the content on anything, you should play what you like playing best and to hell with the rest of the bullsh*t.

It matters the moment that they start crafting challenging content again. Suppose they listen to those who ask for a mythic difficulty and that it is trully challenging. You have the problem of balance again.

Saying balance doesn't matter because content can be completed regardless by everyone is a very weak foundation for the upcoming (let's hope) end game.

[Wongar]

Quite some time ago I posted a thread on melee balance. The main question was whether mortal fear and blitz dominated the elite melee scene and whether there were viable alternatives to those two options. You can find the thread here: State of end game melee (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/444944-The-state-of-end-game-melee-Blitz-mortal-fear-and-what-else)



I linked a set of screenshots in that thread and you chose to ignore them because they did not support your position. Fact is that people were soloing EEs on pure melee without LD or MF well before the last pass. MF is not now nor has it ever been required for a melee.

I have to agree with others that completion speed is not an indicator of balance. In general if you can kill before you are killed you win. A defensive build will generally take longer to kill things than an offensive build - but they can still be balanced.

Pretty much any play style can now be effective at any level - this was a stated goal of the devs and I believe they have achieved it. What point is there in picking cases where one play style may perform better than other and calling it imbalanced while choosing to ignore the cases where the performance is reversed?

[BigErkyKid]

What point is there in picking cases where one play style may perform better than other and calling it imbalanced while choosing to ignore the cases where the performance is reversed?

Tell me, when is it "better" to play melee?

And keep in mind you said completition times don't matter.

[Wongar]

Tell me, when is it "better" to play melee?

Simple - when you enjoy melee more :)

[BigErkyKid]

Simple - when you enjoy melee more :)

Not very relevant when the question is about balance ;)

[Qhualor]

Tell me, when is it "better" to play melee?

this is why there are less players playing certain melees more for the flavor than anything else. doesn't matter if the melees are not top dps but still very much viable. they are constantly compared to casters/ranged and FOTMs. typically melees have limited to no AOE and fight mainly 1 mob at a time, unless they have cleaves and can handle the agro of multiple mobs at once. select melee builds have some CC capabilities while others have none. melees have limited to no insta kill capabilities, but some can have short duration high damaging abilities that can tear chunks of hp out of mobs.

there are many different types of builds that still can perform well and end up with the same result. efficiency and tactics will always be better than speed. however the faster you kill the less healing is required. an sp bar with self healing twists will always be better than guzzling pots. squeezing out every last point in defense and offense will make a noticeable difference over time with no real sacrifice in either one. the better the gear the more the power. in the end, with all that power, its still going to take quick reflexes in game, fast fingers healing/moving around/switching gear as needed, knowledge of quests/mobs and being prepared with supplies/right gear regardless of how powerful you are.

for me, it will always be better to play melee because its what I enjoy playing. I don't care if there are other builds out there that can out dps my characters, out heal them, have higher saves, can complete quests faster, have better gear, can solo the toughest content or whatever. I care more about my goal to strive for maximum power on the melees I want to play and have fun doing it. im not going to sit around number crunching formulas to put together a build and say its the bestest and the only thing worth playing and everything is unappealing to play. its more challenging and fun to go against the grain.

[Rys]

Not very relevant when the question is about balance ;)

Maybe not relevant but a very important point. In a short, you keep saying that the ranged builds are overpowered because they can kite and deal a damage in the same time. It might be true, yes.

Some people hate the ranged combat and they prefer, pardon me the expression, hack and slash. And that's fine. But what is beyond me, is that I see them here and there crying about OPness of the ranged calling for nerfs and what not. And the most funniest (saddest) thing is most of the time, they have never tried to play one. Maybe they'll find out that the ranged playstyle is just horrid and they are bad at it and suddenly they are not that OP at all or maybe they'll fell in love and stick with it. At the end of the day, it is all about prefered playstyle and about the player sitting behind the computer.

In the past few months I have tried various builds from melees through casters until ranged. From what I have seen, there wasn't any huge imbalance between those. And if I felt weak on any build it was mostly because of my limited experience and the time I spent playing it.

On my server, I have seen amazing druids, wizards, sorcerers, monks, fighters, favored souls, rangers, rogues and yes even barbs (going to skip bards and paladins for obvious reason and unfortunately arties and clerics who in my opinion deserve some love). These people seemed uber and OP in my eyes but I would never call for a nerf because I felt weak compared to them.

You have a hard time soloing any particular quest? Think about your weakness and try to overcome it. If you are not willing to craft displace clickies and you rather come to the forums to prove how the melees are still weak because they cannot solo the two quests that are obviously in a favor of ranged, well then.... you cannot be helped I guess.

And just a few last questions on which I would like to hear honest answers. You have said, you played a shuri thrower. Have you liked it? Have you felt OP? Why haven't you sticked with it?

[BigErkyKid]

Maybe not relevant but a very important point. In a short, you keep saying that the ranged build are overpowered because they can kite and deal a damage in the same time. It might be true, yes.

Some people hate the ranged combat playstyle and they prefer, pardon me the expression, hack and slash. And that's fine. But what is beyond me, is that I see them here and there crying about OPness of the ranged calling for nerfs and what not. And the most funniest (saddest) thing is most of the time, they have never tried to play one. Maybe they'll find out that the ranged playstyle is just horrid and they are bad at it and suddenly they are not that OP at all or maybe they'll fell in love and stick with it. At the end of the day, it is all about prefered playstyle and about the player sitting behind the computer.

In the past few months I have tried various builds from melees through casters until ranged. From what I have seen there wasn't any huge imbalance between those. And if I felt weak on any build it was mostly because of my limited experience and the time I spent playing it.

On my server, I have seen amazing druids, wizards, sorcerers, monks, fighters, favored souls, rangers, rogues and yes even barbs (going to skip bards and paladins for obvious reason and unfortunately arties and clerics who in my opinion deserve some love). These people seemed uber and OP in my eyes but I would never call for a nerf or buff because I felt weak compared to them.

You have a hard time soloing any particular quest? Think about your weakness and try to overcome it. If you are not willing to craft displace clickies and you rather come to the forums to prove how the melees are still weak because they cannot solo the two quests that are obviously in a favor of ranged, well then.... you cannot be helped I guess.

And just a few last questions on which I would like to hear honest answers. You have said, you played a shuri thrower. Have you liked it? Have you felt OP? Why haven't you sticked with it?


Obviously, I am not calling for nerfs because I have trouble soloing some EEs. Could I craft displacement clickies? Yes. Is it related to the thread? Not at all. Just some garbage thrown out there by some people who just come here to bait and create as much trouble as they can.

I don't come here to discuss preferences, which would be completely absurd, but rather game balance. The question I pose is legitimate: last update was aimed at restoring balance, has it been accomplished? A lot of people give me hell for just asking and I wonder why.

Since nowadays everyone (all archetypes) are soloing everything the only content that causes trouble are raids. Some of them, that is. So I ask the question in that context: can melees get the highest possible achievement in DDO, duoing / soloing up to date raids?

This has nothing to do with taste. Melee players are now happier because their toons are more powerful. Fine. Personally, I favor melee builds. But I have tried ranged ones. I find it unappealing, that is all. What I come to ask is if balance is restored. It is a legitimate question in a game that is meant to be balanced (devs dixit).

[Rys]

Obviously, I am not calling for nerfs because I have trouble soloing some EEs.
According to your statements about ranged in this thread, indirectly you are. I have no idea what was your true intention but this is the impression I get from it.


I don't come here to discuss preferences, which would be completely absurd, but rather game balance. The question I pose is legitimate: last update was aimed at restoring balance, has it been accomplished? A lot of people give me hell for just asking and I wonder why.
Alright, here goes my personal opinion: they have just created more imbalance and they should rather focus on creating the new content.

[Lycurgus]

This is a bit late to the party since the challenges listed in the OP have been edited, but here's a video of my melee soloing EE BtR w/o MF (or displacement clickies). Completion time 17.45 and used a mnemonic at the end which probably could have been avoided. I'll see about getting a guildie to duo some of the raids this weekend if any of them are bored enough.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE4y_raZwyA

[BigErkyKid]

This is a bit late to the party since the challenges listed in the OP have been edited, but here's a video of my melee soloing EE BtR w/o MF (or displacement clickies). Completion time 17.45 and used a mnemonic at the end which probably could have been avoided. I'll see about getting a guildie to duo some of the raids this weekend if any of them are bored enough.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE4y_raZwyA

That's a shame. I removed the MF challenge since I got the maths of it now. I thought it was attracting unnecessary aggro and it wasn't the main focus anyway. But the submission is appreciated, I'll be looking forward to that raid.

[Cordovan]

I've had to clean up 20+ posts in this thread. Further fighting will lead to infractions.

[BigErkyKid]

Alright, just so that you don't say I don't try. Today we did FOT EN. Given how easy it was, we didn't bother with the video and I just posted a SS. Now that I am 28 we will be trying again EE (got blasted).

[TheLegendOfAra]

Giving the achievement section a quick glance just now I saw:

EH FOT Solo - On a Melee
EE LOB Solo - On a Melee
EH MOD Duo - On Melees
EE Master Artificer Solo - On a Melee
EE LOB Solo - On a Melee


Do these count?
Does this mean "Balance"?

[Takllin]

Alright, just so that you don't say I don't try. Today we did FOT EN. Given how easy it was, we didn't bother with the video and I just posted a SS. Now that I am 28 we will be trying again EE (got blasted).

Per your own rules a video is required...you disallowed other entries previously in your challenges because they had no video...

Like Ara has said, being able to complete these doesn't mean balance...there was a lot of great discussion that Cordovan deleted relevant to it...

Depending how bored I get tonight maybe I'll run a few.

[BigErkyKid]

Per your own rules a video is required...you disallowed other entries previously in your challenges because they had no video...

Like Ara has said, being able to complete these doesn't mean balance...there was a lot of great discussion that Cordovan deleted relevant to it...

Depending how bored I get tonight maybe I'll run a few.

I don't really mind if you don't trust it, as I said it is provisional until we get back to EE. I am not trying to mislead anyone, just, I repeat, to encourage people to run it. The SS is meant to do that.

My entry will not count at all and I have no issue with that, I don't have double standards. Given how simple it was EN we just didn't bother to take a video.

[BigErkyKid]

Giving the achievement section a quick glance just now I saw:

EH FOT Solo - On a Melee
EE LOB Solo - On a Melee
EH MOD Duo - On Melees
EE Master Artificer Solo - On a Melee
EE LOB Solo - On a Melee


Do these count?
Does this mean "Balance"?

I favor videos, that's why i didn't count the EH SS from FOT. Sestra had an excellent post on how you can cheat on them. In addition, inherited from the previous thread, videos are considered to be more illustrative. We also make sure no one exploited any glitches / bugs.

When I chose those raids I was aware of the achievements board. I consider the raids I picked as potentially among the hardest to solo / duo on melees. I might be wrong, but given how people have been completing the others I don't think its coincidence we haven't seen yet a CITW EE melee solo, for instance. Or a duo in thunder peaks.

[Oxarhamar]

I favor videos, that's why i didn't count the EH SS from FOT. Sestra had an excellent post on how you can cheat on them. In addition, inherited from the previous thread, videos are considered to be more illustrative. We also make sure no one exploited any glitches / bugs.

When I chose those raids I was aware of the achievements board. I consider the raids I picked as potentially among the hardest to solo / duo on melees. I might be wrong, but given how people have been completing the others I don't think its coincidence we haven't seen yet a CITW EE melee solo, for instance. Or a duo in thunder peaks.

This is part of your problem in disallowing SS your limiting your potential data base to only those capable of running a video recording program while playing the game without too much lag, those willing to download such programs to try to create and entry but also.
calling all those who would gladly make screenshot entries cheaters and exploiters.

this is why no one wants to play nice.

[BigErkyKid]

And just did EH CITW with Descone. Thanks man for taking the lead!

Again we didn't record so not counting for the challenge, it was meant to be a training run but the second belly was absolute hell. So giving it a rest for a while. Yes, we died a LOT!

SS on the first page.

[Oxarhamar]

And just did EH CITW with Descone. Thanks man for taking the lead!

Again we didn't record so not counting for the challenge, it was meant to be a training run but the second belly was absolute hell. So giving it a rest for a while. Yes, we died a LOT!

SS on the first page.

Still making others live up to standards you refuse to meet.

Lead by example you are making a joke out of your own challenge more than others are.

Why would anyone even attempt the challenge after you claim SS could be faked or players could cheat then you don't even post a SS just claim you've done it? Nevermind making the Video.

Players are to take your word while you stand by your view that all claims on the forum must be proven with Video?

Then you wonder why you get so much flak?

[BigErkyKid]

Still making others live up to standards you refuse to meet.

Lead by example you are making a joke out of your own challenge more than others are.

Why would anyone even attempt the challenge after you claim SS could be faked or players could cheat then you don't even post a SS just claim you've done it?

I have you on ignore for a reason and reading this just reminds me why. I am well aware that the SS is not sufficient evidence and it has been highlighted in the OP. These two were just training runs that I posted to encourage people to participate.

When I am comfortable with duoing them I will (hopefully) find someone who can record with me on higher difficulties. For sure we can at least do EH FOT and I have just beaten with Descone an EH CITW, I am sure we can repeat it.

I was not going to go through all the trouble of the recording on a training run and I hope every reasonable person around here understand my posting for what it is. Encouragement to do it. On duo those two are possible, I am pretty sure, on EH. I know for sure I wouldn't be able to do them solo though.

[Oxarhamar]

I have you on ignore for a reason and reading this just reminds me why. I am well aware that the SS is not sufficient evidence and it has been highlighted in the OP. These two were just training runs that I posted to encourage people to participate. F

When I am comfortable with duoing them I will (hopefully) find someone who can record with me on higher difficulties. For sure we can at least do EH FOT and I have just beaten with Descone an EH CITW, I am sure we can repeat it.

I was not going to go through all the trouble of the recording on a training run and I hope every reasonable person around here understand my posting for what it is. Encouragement to do it. On duo those two are possible, I am pretty sure, on EH. I know for sure I wouldn't be able to do them solo though.

you are not encouraging anyone to participate by posting claims that you completed.

The same type of claims you would require video proof from any other player.

To complete on your practice run without video just shows that it's much easier than you might have thought it was but, we may never know if it's true or not by your standards.

[DarthCaedus]

I have you on ignore for a reason and reading this just reminds me why. I am well aware that the SS is not sufficient evidence and it has been highlighted in the OP. These two were just training runs that I posted to encourage people to participate.

When I am comfortable with duoing them I will (hopefully) find someone who can record with me on higher difficulties. For sure we can at least do EH FOT and I have just beaten with Descone an EH CITW, I am sure we can repeat it.

I was not going to go through all the trouble of the recording on a training run and I hope every reasonable person around here understand my posting for what it is. Encouragement to do it. On duo those two are possible, I am pretty sure, on EH. I know for sure I wouldn't be able to do them solo though.

Video or it didn't happen - your rules.

[Takllin]

Is there any way you could actually post full screenshots, or make them bigger? They are wicked small, and the first one you can't even see.

[BigErkyKid]

Is there any way you could actually post full screenshots, or make them bigger? They are wicked small, and the first one you can't even see.

Sure, I'll repost them later. I didn't know how to link the first when I posted and I didn't want to post a huge SS in the first post.

Do you guys have much experience with Twitch recording? Any recommendations on what software consumes the least resources while recording?

I'll have to grant this, perhaps is that I was still set in a pre u23 mentality, but with the exception of EE completing these two seemed a lot simpler than I expected. CITW would have been much OK if it wasn't for the second belly fight. That part was really a drag.

Being fully honest, I never liked CITW that much and I haven't run it many times recently (or in total). I was blessed with abnormally high drop rates (1 celestia, 2 mornhs, 1 sireth, 1 cleaver, 1 nightmare, 1 agony, 1 tinah, several needles in less than 20 runs). All this to say that Descone had to lead it and remind me all the little steps.

We had 9 deaths each (if I remember correctly) and about 4 of them for me come from the first belly fight, being thrown away. He didn;t die a single time there so I assume there are ways to avoid this, but given my lack of expertise I just had to accept the deaths. All his deaths and the rest of mine come from the second belly fight. That one took about half the completition time.

I went for both raids in US and I have to say with a shielder it isn't so bad DPS wise (the shield hits really hard when twitching if you use a PDK. I'll post some notes on shield fighting when I have time). I expected the raids to be far more difficult on a duo so I counted on renewal + magic training to keep us going. In FOT EN it was a complete overkill but in CITW it proved very helpful. I only used 3 pots (unfortunately he used more) and it was to cast again DW.

As I said, I will go back again to record an EH FOT and probably in a few days an EH CITW.

PS - If it isn't abundantly clear from my comments, I will say it more clear: both Kiingbleed and Descone contributed more than their fair share in finishing the raid and I am thankful they came along. I had a blast.

[MangLord]

My thoughts from the lightly armored swashbuckler melee camp...

Honesty, I find Mortal Fear to be probably the best for highly situational babyboss fights, but for overall damage that works when needed (rednames), Burning Emptiness is probably a better T3 option for a high crit range build. If you're trying to whittle away 60k hp on an EH boss, the crit and vorpal damage is really going to add up. Of course, the negative damage is going to be awful against undead, which is why I always keep a Mutineer's Blade handy. Making a fire based TF backup is always an option. To be honest, a T2 1st Degree Burns/Dragons Edge is a phenomenal weapon to use against undead.

Given how disappointing it can be to activate Blitz without stacking it, I've actually learned that Crusader is an incredibly good destiny for melees. If you have a Devotion item/ruby, Consecrated Ground keeps me healed up very well and provides some AOE damage if I'm willing to stand in place. Strike Down is an excellent AOE cleave attack with a reasonable cooldown, and Zeal is sort of an antiblitz, but can potentially be stronger for the initial brunt of a mob when you need it most. It's much better suited towards non-zerging playstyles. I never use LD when I play with friends, because I'm always trying to maintain stacks and leaving everyone else behind as they shrine or disable traps. It's a very good but very selfish destiny.

[BigErkyKid]

And we did a FOT EH with 1 death in 30 mins. Now EE, like we see some ranged even soloing, that I am quite sure I am completely unable to do.

[Oxarhamar]

And we did a FOT EH with 1 death in 30 mins. Now EE, like we see some ranged even soloing, that I am quite sure I am completely unable to do.

1st. Video?

2nd. You thought 2 manning these raids melee was not possible before you even attempted them completing on your practice runs proving they were much easier than you thought (if you completed still waiting for the videos.) While it may not be possible for you to Solo them on EE melee does not mean that it is impossible.

3rd. Ranged, Melee, Caster archetypes will and should never have true balance they each have their own strengths and weaknesses.

[goodspeed]

lol balanced? I'd rather play a melee character then a caster now. For a caster you have something that spams missles and shirardi. Any type of mix, whatever for the max dmg.

But melee's when I play on that gimp wiz (2nd life) I don't even worry about killing anything in a group. If their are real 2 handed fighters in the group everythings gonna die. And if theirs a couple pallys I can just go pike and raid the fridge in some epic battle lol.

Who'd of thought a ranged (monk) or melee character would have made it this far in game. Still, if you do it the old way and clock out 3 or 6 lives the mage is still a powerhouse as well. Well except a death adder in necro that doesn't play out that well. But why work for it when you got first life shirardi lol.

[BigErkyKid]

lol balanced? I'd rather play a melee character then a caster now. For a caster you have something that spams missles and shirardi. Any type of mix, whatever for the max dmg.

But melee's when I play on that gimp wiz (2nd life) I don't even worry about killing anything in a group. If their are real 2 handed fighters in the group everythings gonna die. And if theirs a couple pallys I can just go pike and raid the fridge in some epic battle lol.

Who'd of thought a ranged (monk) or melee character would have made it this far in game. Still, if you do it the old way and clock out 3 or 6 lives the mage is still a powerhouse as well. Well except a death adder in necro that doesn't play out that well. But why work for it when you got first life shirardi lol.

We are not talking about quests here. Quests have been completely dominated.

It is raids, and soloing raids that the discussion is about. In my case, duoing raids in melees.

FOT EE on a monkcher is standard by now, ever tried that in a melee?

The point is that ranged still dominates melee in the hardest possible content.

[moszrz]

1st. Video?

2nd. You thought 2 manning these raids melee was not possible before you even attempted them completing on your practice runs proving they were much easier than you thought (if you completed still waiting for the videos.) While it may not be possible for you to Solo them on EE melee does not mean that it is impossible.

I would like record but my pc it's outdate so much lag I hope erkid can record those runs someday

I was not thinking on those duo runs like not possible and then feeling god mode in the game hahaha guess is the same for erkid, in my side I'm just doing a raid for fun solo duo full party idc I did EE FOT on my moncher never tried a vid or screenshot cause Idc ppl opinion or feel OP :). I join him to have fun he wrote "Thanks and I hope that some people have fun with the challenge!" well I'm doing it and hey it's not possible for everybody solo duo or even in full raid party XD I think he is encouraging some ppl maybe not arrogant and childish ppl like you .

[Oxarhamar]

I would like record but my pc it's outdate so much lag I hope erkid can record those runs someday

I was not thinking on those duo runs like not possible and then feeling god mode in the game hahaha guess is the same for erkid, in my side I'm just doing a raid for fun solo duo full party idc I did EE FOT on my moncher never tried a vid or screenshot cause Idc ppl opinion or feel OP :). I join him to have fun he wrote "Thanks and I hope that some people have fun with the challenge!" well I'm doing it and hey it's not possible for everybody solo duo or even in full raid party XD I think he is encouraging some ppl maybe not arrogant and childish ppl like you .

This is Erky's challenge and Erky has made the requirements are clear as well as making it clear that all claims without video proof are insubmisable also stating that screenshots can be "faked" his words not mine.

It is only basic courtesy that Erky occupany his claims with video proof as per his own requirements.

You think that holding the forumites to a high level of scrutiny, demanding video proof for all claims and implying that all other claims including screenshots are lies is not childish.

I'm not alone in scrutiny of this challenge its motives and the way it's conducted.

Let's see Erky meet up to the Erky measuring stick.


Not having a rig that can record video while playing DDO is one of the examples why this challenge is exclusionary thanks for confirming that point.

Don't mistake my scrutiny of the flawed manor in which this challenge was presented and has been handled ( continually ignoring the standards of the challenge itself by the OP) how are we the forum expected to trust SS of the raid if OP says SS are not to be trusted.

It's in poor taste for OP to imply anyone supplying a SS is possibly cheating at the challenge then post SS themselves.

It is also in poor taste for OP to require video proof full knowing that limits the possible number of entrants to those who have that capability.

If the OP can't make a video why should OP expect anyone else to? That certainly rude if nothing else.
Do you know what percentage of players make videos?

If no player posts a video then what does that prove? "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!"


Btw. I don't question weather or not you completed the raids 2 man melee but, as per the challenge the OP does require video proof.

[Rys]

We are not talking about quests here. Quests have been completely dominated.

It is raids, and soloing raids that the discussion is about. In my case, duoing raids in melees.

FOT EE on a monkcher is standard by now, ever tried that in a melee?

The point is that ranged still dominates melee in the hardest possible content.

Uh oh. So the fact that the melee is better in ~80% of the content than the ranged, says nothing about the balance.

Shame you have removed your first challenge Breaking the Ranks. I would love to see comparison of the monkcher and paladin in there.

[BigErkyKid]

Uh oh. So the fact that the melee is better in ~80% of the content than the ranged, says nothing about the balance.

Shame you have removed your first challenge Breaking the Ranks. I would love to see comparison of the monkcher and paladin in there.

I am curious. How exactly is melee better than ranged in 80% of content?

Are there quests or raids that a melee can finish and a ranged cannot?

I suppose you will be refering to times for completition. While it might be true that post u23 melees may finish faster, that does not imply that they are superior, IMHO. The reason is that for the most part it remains harder to get those completitions because they risk of failure is greater on a melee toon.

In case, as I argued before, it is hard to talk about superiority when both can finish them. That is why I moved to raids, which arguably it is the hardest content possible in DDO. Now how is it exactly that ranged aren't superior to melee still when we have people completing raids in the hardest difficulties on a ranged archetypes but not with melees?

Some people will argue that it is a matter of SS vs videos, but that is not at all the case. The achievements section has melees finishing some raids, but for the most part, ranged have finished all the raids a melee has soloed so far (SS or video) AND a lot more. In addition, as I already said, they finish at a harder difficulty.

Finally, a word on video vs SS. The reasons why I mantained the requirement are 2:

1. As Sestra has shown us, it is possible to fake SS. I didn't want the discussion to be centered around the validity of the SS, since it would detract from the objective of the thread.

2. Videos are more helpful for players to learn tricks. If some people can solo those raids on melees I am sure we can all learn from how they play.

If I haven't recorded videos yet myself is mostly because I haven't done more than training runs. You are free to doubt whether I completed or not and I won't argue over it. My point is that so far, it seems that below EE duos are very feasible in CITW and FOT. Solos seem a lot harder. Perhaps not impossible in FOT, there are some SS in the achievements section. In any case they seemt to require improved evasion and high AC.

In the spirit of Christmas, and just to stop seeing Oxa's white posts constantly haunting the thread (got him on ignore) harping about the videos and what not, I am willing to drop that requirement. However reasonable it was to start with.

[Rys]

I am curious. How exactly is melee better than ranged in 80% of content?

Are there quests or raids that a melee can finish and a ranged cannot?

I suppose you will be referring to times for completition. While it might be true that post u23 melees may finish faster, that does not imply that they are superior, IMHO. The reason is that for the most part it remains harder to get those completitions because they risk of failure is greater on a melee toon.
DPS wise, they are better. And yes I will be refering to the completion times because as you have already said, almost everything can be soloed by everyone so the completion time is the only indicator left for measuring the balance. Risk of failure? With changes to PRR and MRR, not so much. Also don't forget that each playstyle has its own downside.


In case, as I argued before, it is hard to talk about superiority when both can finish them. That is why I moved to raids, which arguably it is the hardest content possible in DDO. Now how is it exactly that ranged aren't superior to melee still when we have people completing raids in the hardest difficulties on a ranged archetypes but not with melees?
A lot of people here already knew that soloing raids on melee is not impossible and you could finally see that by yourself as well. Monkcher can solo FoT faster? Yes. This quest is in the favor of the ranged builds as has been said many times. AFAIK (I don't check it often so I might be wrong), there is an EE LoB solo done by melee only. But honestly what does this say about the balance? Soloing stuff like this can only the best from the best players and that hardly gives any representation of the current state of the game.


Some people will argue that it is a matter of SS vs videos, but that is not at all the case. The achievements section has melees finishing some raids, but for the most part, ranged have finished all the raids a melee has soloed so far (SS or video) AND a lot more. In addition, as I already said, they finish at a harder difficulty.

Finally, a word on video vs SS. The reasons why I mantained the requirement are 2:

1. As Sestra has shown us, it is possible to fake SS. I didn't want the discussion to be centered around the validity of the SS, since it would detract from the objective of the thread.

2. Videos are more helpful for players to learn tricks. If some people can solo those raids on melees I am sure we can all learn from how they play.

If I haven't recorded videos yet myself is mostly because I haven't done more than training runs. You are free to doubt whether I completed or not and I won't argue over it. My point is that so far, it seems that below EE duos are very feasible in CITW and FOT. Solos seem a lot harder. Perhaps not impossible in FOT, there are some SS in the achievements section. In any case they seemt to require improved evasion and high AC.

In the spirit of Christmas, and just to stop seeing Oxa's white posts constantly haunting the thread (got him on ignore) harping about the videos and what not, I am willing to drop that requirement. However reasonable it was to start with.
Concerning videos and screenshots I couldn't care less because if someone fakes their own screenshot, it is only their loss, not mine. But on the other hand I totally understand Oxar's comments because it was YOU who has set those rules and if I remember right you dismissed various participants in your first challenge thread because of that. And now when you finally got to the point to actually try the challenge by yourself, you have realised, you can't record it (to much lag, too much work to search for a good recording software, w/e). So in the spirit of the Christmas you are willing to drop that requirement. At least be honest about it.

[BigErkyKid]

A lot of people here already knew that soloing raids on melee is not impossible and you could finally see that by yourself as well. Monkcher can solo FoT faster? Yes. This quest is in the favor of the ranged builds as has been said many times. AFAIK (I don't check it often so I might be wrong), there is an EE LoB solo done by melee only. But honestly what does this say about the balance? Soloing stuff like this can only the best from the best players and that hardly gives any representation of the current state of the game.

Be honest, no one can solo (at least so far) EE FOT on a melee. Or EE CITW. Or EH/EN/EE FOTP. Or even MOD on any difficulty. It is not about faster, it is about feasibility. So yes, the archetype (melee / ranged) matters. People like to make it about the player, but it is simply not true. No player, regardless of how good they are, can solo the same amount of raids (and on same difficulty) on a melee as in a ranged character. This is telling you something.

In a game were content has been trivialized to the point that solo quests are no longer a big achievement, balance has to do with raids. And in raids a quick look at the achievements thread shows how ranged types dominate. Do you dispute this?


DPS wise, they are better. And yes I will be refering to the completion times because as you have already said, almost everything can be soloed by everyone so the completion time is the only indicator left for measuring the balance.

I disagree. A completition is a completition, it is not like ranged archetypes so much longer anyway. The measure of balance is given by what cannot be achieved by both, which is completitions in the hardest content: raids.


Concerning videos and screenshots I couldn't care less because if someone fakes their own screenshot, it is only their loss, not mine.

You don't, plenty of people do. Care to look at the massive discussions in the achievement s thread over that?


But on the other hand I totally understand Oxar's comments because it was YOU who has set those rules and if I remember right you dismissed various participants in your first challenge thread because of that. And now when you finally got to the point to actually try the challenge by yourself, you have realised, you can't record it (to much lag, too much work to search for a good recording software, w/e). So in the spirit of the Christmas you are willing to drop that requirement. At least be honest about it.

Plenty of quests have perching / exploiting spots. For instance, mid challenge I found out that one such spot exists in breaking the ranks. Add the debate over SS being faked (you don't care, so what? others do), and the fact that videos are way more illustrative of gameplay and you have the reasons for the video requirement. Do I gain anything at all from asking for it? No. The first thread spawned a massive discussion and it is obvious that the most rigorous way to test for the challenge was with videos. So I asked for them. People arguing over that just look to discredit the thread and the challenge as they did in the past. Is it by chance that it is the same people that adamantly refused to discuss balance to start with? I don't think so.

Regarding this thread and me dropping the requirement, this comes from a variety of reasons:

1. Lack of contenders: thanks to the absurd amount of stupid bickering over details and people personally attacking me, this thread became a flaming war early on. Cordovan had to purge it because of that. Personally I would probably not bother going through too much trouble to try out a challenge in such a thread. So being realistic, I think it is more likely that people try if it is easier. SS are way easier.

2. No exploits in those raids: after asking plenty, most people I know do not know of exploite style tactics for those raids. Hence less of a reason for needing proof that it was not cheesed.

And I did NOT claim I could get away with SS, I was trying to encourage people to participate. Competition is a big driving factor in games, so if I show you I do an EH, odds are some people want to beat me and show an EE. All the talk about double standards and me lying and what not iis just not reasonable.

Finally, a reason why I think most people no longer care about balance is because a lot of the competitive players have lost interest in the game. Yes, there are a bunch still around. But as the game becomes way easier, does it really matter if I can solo raids? Raid soloing is something that appeals to a very small minority. The majority of people are either happy pawning EE content on any archetype or playing raids with their friends. As long as they can play in their prefered archetype and still be very powerful wrt to content, they don't care about the rest.

[Rys]

Be honest, no one can solo (at least so far) EE FOT on a melee. Or EE CITW. Or EH/EN/EE FOTP. Or even MOD on any difficulty. It is not about faster, it is about feasibility. So yes, the archetype (melee / ranged) matters.
If anyone can solo EE CitW or EE FotP or EE Deathwyrm then big props to them. Haven't heard of anyone yet. Even EH CitW is freakin difficult no matter what build you choose. The archetype matters? Of course. I have said it by myself. FoT favors ranged, FotP favors any build with ruin and MoD favors anyone with ability to cc mobs in there. So what does the balance means to you? You want to be able to smash everything with your sword? Let's screw all tactics!


People like to make it about the player, but it is simply not true.
Wrong. The player is what matters the most. I hate to say this but you have a possibility to roll any ranged build on Lamania and go see by yourself.


In a game were content has been trivialized to the point that solo quests are no longer a big achievement, balance has to do with raids. And in raids a quick look at the achievements thread shows how ranged types dominate. Do you dispute this?
So the fact that the melee dominates the rest of the game means nothing. Also once again, the achievement forum shows nothing about the balance. Even more because there are only like 5 (awsome) players posting over and over again with a few exceptions here and there.

[BigErkyKid]

Wrong. The player is what matters the most. I hate to say this but you have a possibility to roll any ranged build on Lamania and go see by yourself.

You are wrong. As evidence tells us time and again. It is not the player, even the top players in DDO cannot do certain things on a melee, but they can do them on a ranged character. Can anyone do what the high achievers do? No, but that has nothing to do with the fact that one archetype dominates the other.


I have said it by myself. FoT favors ranged, FotP favors any build with ruin and MoD favors anyone with ability to cc mobs in there. So what does the balance means to you? You want to be able to smash everything with your sword? Let's screw all tactics!

There is absolutely no raid or quest in DDO that favors melee, at least that I know. Different raids require different stuff, but that aside, what is common between them is that they all favor ranged archetypes (let it be a monkcher, a caster or what not).

It is not about being able to slash everything (although I do fail to see how ranged is a more intelligent gameplay). It is about the fact that it is simpler and more powerful to play ranged. The reason is obvious: kiting. Since mobs in DDO do far more damage in melee, this creates an imbalance. It is what I call bad design. The game is not build taking into account people who backpedal constantly.

High achievers have recognized that and in the achievements thread we have a complete domination by ranged archetypes. This is a fact.

The only reason I opened this thread is because perhaps there is some people out there capable of high achievements that are not part of the select club of the folks that post in achievements. I wanted to open the debate. But so far, even through personal experience, I find that this is a reflection of the reality of the situation. Ranged still dominates melee.

No one gives a copper coin about it nowadays because everything (melee, ranged, caster, archer, shuriken) is so powerful with respect to the difficulty of quests that the game has been trivialized. Who cares about raids when in 95% of the content all archetypes shine and pawn?

[moo_cow]

Erky I completely side with Rys. You are wrong .... It is highly dependent on the player.

Also completion time doesn't matter? So if I can solo a wgu in 38 minutes on a ranged and 22 minutes on a melee than ranged is still some how superior in that quest? Nonsense. Some quests favor ranged, some favor melee. Most of the content favors melee like rys said. But even then according to you dps and time doesn't matter. (lol)

[LordKalkin]

Quite some time ago I posted a thread on melee balance. The main question was whether mortal fear and blitz dominated the elite melee scene and whether there were viable alternatives to those two options. You can find the thread here: State of end game melee (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/444944-The-state-of-end-game-melee-Blitz-mortal-fear-and-what-else)

Past U23 a lot of the issues that came up in that thread have been corrected. Melees deal more damage (MP) and are far more survivable (PRR/MRR). However, I now have two big questions: (EDIT: removed the references to MF)

1. Can we say we have achieved balance between ranged and melee archetypes?

This is now mostly overlooked. As we have become more powerful wrt content, melee lovers are happy with their new found uberness. However, can we say that balance has been restored?

To find an answer I propose a challenge in the spirit of the original thread. Since lama has been up for a while, I bet you guys are eager to try new things.

Challenge 1: Raids!

Can you duo the following raids on two melees on any difficulty:

- Fire on Thunder Peak
- The Fall of Truth
- Caught in the Web.

As usual, video required. Thanks and I hope that some people have fun with the challenge!

Challenge 1 contenders:

Provisional (pending videos):

- Kiingbleed and Erkid: FOT EN (15 minutes)

SS (http://i.imgur.com/MCRBwU5.png)
SS2 (i.imgur.com/t44WGRa.png)

Provisional (pending videos):

- Descone and Erkid: CITW EH (a looooong time - had issues in 2nd belly) but no reentries.

SS (http://i.imgur.com/y0AgAvK.png)
SS2 (http://i.imgur.com/WHaMYJA.png)

Here is a thought, don't propose challenges, showing raids being preposterously short manned.

[moo_cow]

There is absolutely no raid or quest in DDO that favors melee, at least that I know. Different raids require different stuff, but that aside, what is common between them is that they all favor ranged archetypes (let it be a monkcher, a caster or what not).

It is not about being able to slash everything (although I do fail to see how ranged is a more intelligent gameplay). It is about the fact that it is simpler and more powerful to play ranged. The reason is obvious: kiting. Since mobs in DDO do far more damage in melee, this creates an imbalance. It is what I call bad design. The game is not build taking into account people who backpedal constantly.


So melee does more damage, but rangers take less damage.(in such cases) Erm but if you aren't dieing than aren't you better off doing more damage lol? Especially when you can complete the quest faster. And you call this imbalance? *** are you talking about

Your logic is flawless lol

[BigErkyKid]

Eryk I completely side with Rys. You are wrong .... It is highly dependent on the player.

Also completion time doesn't matter? So if I can solo a wgu in 38 minutes on a ranged and 22 minutes on a melee than ranged is still some how superior in that quest? Nonsense. Some quests favor ranged, some favor melee. Most of the content favors melee like rys said. But even then according to you dps and time doesn't matter.


If there difference was large, I would side with you in reference to questing. However, it is not a big deal.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/441651-EE-What-Goes-Up-solo-revisited-DI-Sorc-35min

There, a sorc in 35 mins some time ago, didn't look for more. So it takes a bit more time, but you can still do it. That's the reality of the situation.

It is not the player when there are things some archetypes cannot do at all. It is the player soloing certain raids on a given archetype. But no player on a melee has been able to do certain things. Non at all. That's the part that bugs me.

I don't think one can claim balance when all melees can do ranged can achieve (sometimes taking a bit longer) and some of the stuff ranged can do melees can't dream of doing.

PS - I understand though that nowadays, aside from high level raids, this discussion is pointless. We are already pawning content, if some raids are the realm of a few elite ranged characters, who cares? I do, but I also see how the vast majority of the playerbase do not give a darn.

[Blackheartox]

If there difference was large, I would side with you in reference to questing. However, it is not a big deal.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/441651-EE-What-Goes-Up-solo-revisited-DI-Sorc-35min

There, a sorc in 35 mins some time ago, didn't look for more. So it takes a bit more time, but you can still do it. That's the reality of the situation.

It is not the player when there are things some archetypes cannot do at all. It is the player soloing certain raids on a given archetype. But no player on a melee has been able to do certain things. Non at all. That's the part that bugs me.

I don't think one can claim balance when all melees can do ranged can achieve (sometimes taking a bit longer) and some of the stuff ranged can do melees can't dream of doing.

PS - I understand though that nowadays, aside from high level raids, this discussion is pointless. We are already pawning content, if some raids are the realm of a few elite ranged characters, who cares? I do, but I also see how the vast majority of the playerbase do not give a darn.


Take for example peaks, a melle COULD solo it, but issue is that melle would need to take ruin and spam sp pots like a idiot.
That favors only builds with ruin/former ddor exploit method or stuck method.
Also a ranged purely cant solo it.
A melle /depends what you mean with melle, could solo wyrm.
A melle could maybe solo mark, i know it favors sorcs and wizzys most but more people will do it in time.
What beside fot is not soloable on a melle?
And i bet someone amazing will show us that they can solo even that on a melle on ee in due time

[Archangel666]

You want to see if balance has been achieved?

Try your challenge on a Pure Monk. (You might notice the complete lack of Pure Monks in the Achievements section of the Forum).

Then come back and tell us how it's balanced. :)

They've been nerfed so many times because people found synergies with other classes by multiclassing that were OP (If they weren't, then they wouldn't have been nerfed). The net result is that Pure Monks are suffering as a result.

So no. Balance has not been achieved.

[BD_]

For the records, I would say Deathwyrm is most definitely impossible to solo without a pet - and probably impossible to solo even with one. You can't pull both levers by yourself fast enough...

I've done EH Deathwyrm with 6, it was a bit tedious but not really that hard... I'm absolutely certain I could do it with 5 fairly easily and with 4 with some difficulty - again the end lever pulling part is the hardest. Range or melee doesn't matter - actually melee is better because sustained DPS is the key to shortmanning Deathwyrm. EE probably wouldn't be all that hard with 6 or so but you'd need 6 pretty buff chars. The 6 man EH deathwyrm we did - had 3 people doing trash on dragon side - where one uber/semi-uber dps that can self heal would suffice. Getting both levers pulled with less than 5 would take a lot of skill and a bit of luck -dropping the Kuls would make it easier...

[Oxarhamar]

How does the U23 balance??? Feel after U24?