Endgame and xp

[Oliphant]

Playing endgame means not advancing xp towards past lives. In the old epics, you had to play heroics to get xp but you had to play end game to farm scrolls/seals/shards. The endgame had to be fun in the first place or why bother farming endgame for gear that you only use in endgame. But the endgame certainly had to provide something of practical value to make up for the inescapable economics of not advancing your xp. Earning seeds is just a fast road to reincarnation, certainly not a currency for solidifying an endgame crowd. Seems like we need something unique at endgame to farm or reincarnation will always be a no-brainer.

[Blackheartox]

Endgame?
There is no endgame in ddo.
Only way to reach endgame is to end the game and do something else.
Dragon age is out, try that ;)

[Oliphant]

Yeah I know but they haven't finished off the levels yets. Could and should be an endgame in the next year or so...

[EllisDee37]

************************
Here's an idea for a new endgame mechanic. It came out super long; I was brainstorming the idea as I was typing.
************************

Thinking back bout the old epics, there were lots of viable endgame epic items, multiple different places to farm the components for each one of them, and all of them took forever to make.

I think it would be too much work (and a nightmare to balance) to make a ton of brand new endgame items, so I'm thinking piggyback off of current loot somehow.

My first thought is to somehow imbue "epic set bonuses" into your existing equipment. Up to 5 items could be imbued, and you'd get increasing power depending on how many items you add to your epic set. The sets could work something like:

Weapon + Armor = 2 item set bonus
Weapon + Armor + 1 accessory = 3 item set bonus
(no 4 item set bonus)
Weapon + Armor + 3 accessories = 5 item set bonus

The accessory types could have different flavors on what kind of set bonus you get. So, like, boots would tend to add more defense while gloves would tend to add more dps.

There would be two basic types of "imbue this item" core ingredients: one from quests and one from raids. Both types would only drop on EE. Figure you'd need to run 5 EE raids and 20 EE quests just to "prep" an item to be imbued. Sort of like how you have to bind and attune an item in the stone of change before you can actually do any stone of change ritual. Not sure if the epic binding and attuning ingredients could come from any EE quest and raid, or only high level EE quests or raids. (For the raid component, should EE chrono, ADQ or VON6 count? EE CitW and EE FoT probably should. For quests, should EE gianthold and high road count? Probably not, and certainly nothing easier than them should either.)

Once your item is "bound and attuned" for an epic set bonus, then you imbue up to three actual bonuses onto it. The first is the weakest, which you get from the 2 item set bonus. Then a little stronger for the 3 item set, then the strongest from the 5 item set. Keeping in mind that you don't actually get a set bonus at all until you actually have a set, meaning multiple items (at least 2, up to 5) that you're currently wearing have to be "bound and attuned." Also keeping in mind that just "binding and attuning" multiple equipped items won't give you any bonus until you actually imbue them with bonuses.

The actual bonuses that you put on the imbued set items could come from any number of EE quests, even low level ones. The easier the epic (Rusted Blades, Bargain of Blood) the weaker the bonus you can farm from it, the harder the epic the better the bonus. Maybe different adventure packs have different bonus themes. Necro4 ingredients might give you undead-themed bonuses, etc... (EE MoD: I finally pulled the 35% ghostly shard, woot!)

The 5-set bonuses maybe only come from EE raids, while the 2- and 3-set bonuses come from quests.

As a mechanic for farming these bonuses that you apply to your items, I'm thinking something similar to how seals and shards are now, but have them be quest-specific instead of item specific. Let's take Carnival as an example. "Shards" come from Big Top, "seals" come from the other quests. The recipes you use to make your set bonus imbue could then use varying amounts from the different quests. Here's a tiny fragment of a partial example:

2-set bonus recipes from Carnival
5 shards (eBigTop)
5 Small Problem seals
3 Snitch seals
2 Partycrashers seals
-----------
Combine all 15 ingredients to make a rune, then apply that rune to an item of your choice:
If imbued onto a Hat: +3 epic skills
If imbued onto Gloves: +2 epic strength
If imbued onto a Necklace: +2 epic will saves

Each recipe would have a bunch of different possible effects depending on which item you imbue the recipe onto. Each adventure pack would have multiple recipes for 2-set bonuses and 3-set bonuses. (5-set bonuses would only come from raids.) Maybe the easier packs wouldn't even have 3-set bonuses.


The basic idea here is to give use the freedom to create our own perfectly designed epic endgame gear without having to worry overly much about creating a ton of new (and balanced) endgame gear. A CitW weapon would still be viable, as would thunderforged, or even gianthold helmets, because you can slap whatever imbues you like on whatever gear you like. And you can mix and match to your heart's content to get the exact set bonuses you're looking for. And ideally, any given recipe you want to make could be made in multiple places, but then also have some bonuses unique to each pack. But even the weakest, lowest level epic set bonus imbue would require running dozens of epic quests and raids.

EDIT: As an elegant limiter to prevent spamming a quest 100 times in a row to get your items, all ingredients would only drop if your quest ransack is 0%, similar to comms of valor. As a recap, there are two generic ingredients to bind and attune, plus one unique ingredient for each epic quest. And all ingredients only drop on EE.

[Nahiz]

I like the idea, but:



There would be two basic types of "imbue this item" core ingredients: one from quests and one from raids. Both types would only drop on EE.

Why only on EE? Couldn´t it be possible (and desirable) to just make them available to all difficulties, with a bigger (and i mean much bigger) drop rate on EE than EH than EN?

[EllisDee37]

Why only on EE? Couldn´t it be possible (and desirable) to just make them available to all difficulties, with a bigger (and i mean much bigger) drop rate on EE than EH than EN?It must be EE-only. That's the one thing that can't be compromised on, otherwise it's not endgame.

Note that I don't actually run EE, so it's not like I'm an uber-elitist trying to keep the unwashed masses down. But in terms of how endgame works, if you can do it on EN then there's no reason to run EE, and then it's no longer endgame.

Think of it like the old pre-MotU endgame. Imagine you could farm up your shards, seals and scrolls on heroic elite instead of epic. That would essentially kill the system. Being able to do this on EN would be similarly system-killing.

[Erdrique]

************************
Here's an idea for a new endgame mechanic. It came out super long; I was brainstorming the idea as I was typing.
************************

Thinking back bout the old epics, there were lots of viable endgame epic items, multiple different places to farm the components for each one of them, and all of them took forever to make.

I think it would be too much work (and a nightmare to balance) to make a ton of brand new endgame items, so I'm thinking piggyback off of current loot somehow.

My first thought is to somehow imbue "epic set bonuses" into your existing equipment. Up to 5 items could be imbued, and you'd get increasing power depending on how many items you add to your epic set. The sets could work something like:

Weapon + Armor = 2 item set bonus
Weapon + Armor + 1 accessory = 3 item set bonus
(no 4 item set bonus)
Weapon + Armor + 3 accessories = 5 item set bonus

The accessory types could have different flavors on what kind of set bonus you get. So, like, boots would tend to add more defense while gloves would tend to add more dps.

There would be two basic types of "imbue this item" core ingredients: one from quests and one from raids. Both types would only drop on EE. Figure you'd need to run 5 EE raids and 20 EE quests just to "prep" an item to be imbued. Sort of like how you have to bind and attune an item in the stone of change before you can actually do any stone of change ritual. Not sure if the epic binding and attuning ingredients could come from any EE quest and raid, or only high level EE quests or raids. (For the raid component, should EE chrono, ADQ or VON6 count? EE CitW and EE FoT probably should. For quests, should EE gianthold and high road count? Probably not, and certainly nothing easier than them should either.)

Once your item is "bound and attuned" for an epic set bonus, then you imbue up to three actual bonuses onto it. The first is the weakest, which you get from the 2 item set bonus. Then a little stronger for the 3 item set, then the strongest from the 5 item set. Keeping in mind that you don't actually get a set bonus at all until you actually have a set, meaning multiple items (at least 2, up to 5) that you're currently wearing have to be "bound and attuned." Also keeping in mind that just "binding and attuning" multiple equipped items won't give you any bonus until you actually imbue them with bonuses.

The actual bonuses that you put on the imbued set items could come from any number of EE quests, even low level ones. The easier the epic (Rusted Blades, Bargain of Blood) the weaker the bonus you can farm from it, the harder the epic the better the bonus. Maybe different adventure packs have different bonus themes. Necro4 ingredients might give you undead-themed bonuses, etc... (EE MoD: I finally pulled the 35% ghostly shard, woot!)

The 5-set bonuses maybe only come from EE raids, while the 2- and 3-set bonuses come from quests.

As a mechanic for farming these bonuses that you apply to your items, I'm thinking something similar to how seals and shards are now, but have them be quest-specific instead of item specific. Let's take Carnival as an example. "Shards" come from Big Top, "seals" come from the other quests. The recipes you use to make your set bonus imbue could then use varying amounts from the different quests. Here's a tiny fragment of a partial example:

2-set bonus recipes from Carnival
5 shards (eBigTop)
5 Small Problem seals
3 Snitch seals
2 Partycrashers seals
-----------
Combine all 15 ingredients to make a rune, then apply that rune to an item of your choice:
If imbued onto a Hat: +3 epic skills
If imbued onto Gloves: +2 epic strength
If imbued onto a Necklace: +2 epic will saves

Each recipe would have a bunch of different possible effects depending on which item you imbue the recipe onto. Each adventure pack would have multiple recipes for 2-set bonuses and 3-set bonuses. (5-set bonuses would only come from raids.) Maybe the easier packs wouldn't even have 3-set bonuses.


The basic idea here is to give use the freedom to create our own perfectly designed epic endgame gear without having to worry overly much about creating a ton of new (and balanced) endgame gear. A CitW weapon would still be viable, as would thunderforged, or even gianthold helmets, because you can slap whatever imbues you like on whatever gear you like. And you can mix and match to your heart's content to get the exact set bonuses you're looking for. And ideally, any given recipe you want to make could be made in multiple places, but then also have some bonuses unique to each pack. But even the weakest, lowest level epic set bonus imbue would require running dozens of epic quests and raids.

EDIT: As an elegant limiter to prevent spamming a quest 100 times in a row to get your items, all ingredients would only drop if your quest ransack is 0%, similar to comms of valor. As a recap, there are two generic ingredients to bind and attune, plus one unique ingredient for each epic quest.


I like this line of thinking. Right now I'm just working on gathering past lives for my characters so by the time I get done doing that the gear they were using will be outdated. However, having a mechanic like this would help to keep any gear up to date. I'm also still waiting to here the concept about the sentient weapons and how that would work. It would be interesting to be able to "combine" items to together to make new combinations as well.

[EllisDee37]

It would be interesting to be able to "combine" items to together to make new combinations as well.Agreed, that would also be a cool mechanic.

[Nahiz]

I really like your proposal, Ellis, and I don´t want to derail the thread, but I still don´t get why you define EE as endgame instead of level cap 28/30 (or a level lowerish).


But in terms of how endgame works, if you can do it on EN then there's no reason to run EE, and then it's no longer endgame.

Think of it like the old pre-MotU endgame. Imagine you could farm up your shards, seals and scrolls on heroic elite instead of epic. That would essentially kill the system. Being able to do this on EN would be similarly system-killing.

If drop rates are higher on EE (say, 3x EH, 9x EN) I think there will be a reason to run EE. Why would this kill the system? Now that I think of it, you are saying to implement this on all levels of epic quests/raids (20-30) on EE, while what I´m thinking of is to apply it to lev ¿27-30 quests/raids?, on any difficulty but with different drop rates. Though I still don´t see any problem on doing this also for 20-26 quests/raids.

Anyway, I think the idea is great, no matter what.

[Powskier]

they have a good idea for endgame that needs rehashing...planar conflux trinket...make it work with any whepon that is combined! Upgradeable in newer raids too, would be sweet. Open up options, planar conflux ring or necklace ? And Less Max lvl Gear; I dont need lvl28 items ,I'm lvl28 for like 2 days usually.

[Monkey-Boy]

The only end-game is speed running EE Mark of death, we need more.

Make a setting above EE for the new "end-game" with loot that can only be obtained there. The Sentient weapons or whatever they are should be farmed here. A few posters have made the suggestion of naming this "Mythic."

Old Epics were level 25 content when we were capped at 20, since we're getting capped at 30 make these level 35 or 40 quests.

Make this difficulty available for all current epic content (all at once not needed, a few packs at a time is fine) and upgrade the "devil" content to this as well.

The old epic/raid system worked, just bring it back.

[Hafeal]

I really like your proposal, Ellis, and I don´t want to derail the thread, but I still don´t get why you define EE as endgame instead of level cap 28/30 (or a level lowerish).

Because players won't run EE. They will run normal. They will run Normal for guaranteed success and for speed grind to get what they want. So few players are willing to run EE now, even with increased drop rates, that a system has to be designed to steer people into EE.

Then, even if you do that, you get those who think EE is too easy as it is:



Make a setting above EE for the new "end-game" with loot that can only be obtained there. T

If you are breezing through EE already, that is its own reward. You don't need moar loot too - making the content even more trivial. ;)

[Monkey-Boy]

If you are breezing through EE already, that is its own reward. You don't need moar loot too - making the content even more trivial. ;)

What part of "the end-game players have nothing worth doing" do you not understand?

It needs to pay something or people won't bother. If you need an example look at every abandoned raid in DDO.

[PermaBanned]

I guess I have different expectations of what an "end game" should be.

I figure when a character is "done" (never know when something like Harper or a new piece of gear will be released causing a minor revision to a "finished" toon) then it's reached the "end" and has two things left to do:

• Explore new content.
I play entirely too much to have any realistic expectation that new content will arrive at a pace to keep me busy and entertained playing a single capped character.

• Help friends.
When my friends & guildies are farming for a specific item, and/or need a character with a specific skill set - I usually bust out the "finished" character to help 'em out.

When neither of the two above are going on, I play Alts. Between long term (multi TR) projects and the occasional one offs just to check out class changes (like I did with Bard & will with Barb), I never really find myself with nothing interesting to do. I suppose Alts really aren't a proper "end game" solution, but I really can't see how the Devs can be expected to keep a character with all the PLs & gear it wants busy between content releases in a (thankfully) non-PvP focused environment. Ellis' has an entersting idea, but what happens when your character has it's set? Same issue of being "done" with nothing to do...

[Monkey-Boy]

I guess I have different expectations of what an "end game" should be.



What works for you doesn't matter if it doesn't work for other people. You know, like the 60% of the players who bailed on DDO, many of who bailed because it's a pointless XP treadmill with no end-game.

[Hafeal]

What part of "the end-game players have nothing worth doing" do you not understand?

It needs to pay something or people won't bother. If you need an example look at every abandoned raid in DDO.

Oh, what part of "end game" do you not understand? Usually, when something, like a game, gets to the end, it, uh, ends.

Raids "end" after players get everything they need from them. You want more grind? I don't. I prefer more content than inventing systems for self-declared elite, "end game" players who need their entertainment valued above all other players and play styles.

This idea that "end game" players need something to do - well, if you have ground out your gear and defeated all EE, gratz, retire. You know, at some point for every character, the game, well, ends. Time to start a new jounrey - hey - maybe sniff a little more this time. :cool:

[BigErkyKid]

Oh, what part of "end game" do you not understand? Usually, when something, like a game, gets to the end, it, uh, ends.

Raids "end" after players get everything they need from them. You want more grind? I don't. I prefer more content than inventing systems for self-declared elite, "end game" players who need their entertainment valued above all other players and play styles.

This idea that "end game" players need something to do - well, if you have ground out your gear and defeated all EE, gratz, retire. You know, at some point for every character, the game, well, ends. Time to start a new jounrey - hey - maybe sniff a little more this time. :cool:

If people were to follow your advise here DDO would automatically die. It is multi live veterans current supporting the game.

Like any other MMO, the game needs long term retention mechanics as much as rookie keeping strategies.

Now, the current offer we have is to do eTRs. The problem with this is that:

1. It is short: a lot of people already have epic completionist after what, a year?

2. It is boring: the amount of epic quests is much smaller than heroic quests and you need to repeat a lot of them in off destinies. Feels like a huge grind.

3. It is pointless: characters without ePLs are crushing content. There isn't any distinct must have advantage like the +3 evo DC or spell pens or +3 tactical DCs.

People want ITEM based end game systems, not eTRs. I have yet to see anyone praising the eTR system and the amount of threads complaining about off destiny grinding is beyond counting. Somehow, it does not feel the same to grind XP compared to grinding items.

What Ellis is proposing makes a lot of sense to me. To find ways to recover the value of items and old raids while tapping on customization, the big success of the shroud. Let's be frank, DDO will not offer any innovative thing to do, we just have to choose what we think could be a fun grind. Content comes far in between, they won't add PVP, sandbox elements are off the table.

So what is the most fun grind we can have? How to make it engaging and NOT simply a snorefest?

Well, it needs to be challenging and real end game. And hopefully bring back group cooperation in the way that to some extend happened in old epics.

[PermaBanned]

What works for you doesn't matter if it doesn't work for other people. You know, like the 60% of the players who bailed on DDO, many of who bailed because it's a pointless XP treadmill with no end-game.

So what would you like Turbine to provide you to do with your character(s) that has(have) all the PLs & gear they want and are thus "done?" How would "end game" be aptly named if it was just about further character progression?

[Monkey-Boy]

Oh, what part of "end game" do you not understand? Usually, when something, like a game, gets to the end, it, uh, ends.

Raids "end" after players get everything they need from them. You want more grind? I don't. I prefer more content than inventing systems for self-declared elite, "end game" players who need their entertainment valued above all other players and play styles.

This idea that "end game" players need something to do - well, if you have ground out your gear and defeated all EE, gratz, retire. You know, at some point for every character, the game, well, ends. Time to start a new jounrey - hey - maybe sniff a little more this time. :cool:

So your solution is to stop playing DDO? All is fine right?

So when you're down to 5% of the 2011 player numbers will all still be fine? I mean that's the advice you're giving to everyone, stop playing.

[Inoukchuk]

What works for you doesn't matter if it doesn't work for other people. You know, like the 60% of the players who bailed on DDO, many of who bailed because it's a pointless XP treadmill with no end-game.

You are asking for something that can't exist. It wouldn't matter how many high level quests or how much loot you added, eventually it will all be completed and acquired and we'll be back to "there is no end game. WAHHHH!" you could add 20 level 30 quests, 20 level 35 quests, 20 level 40 raids, without raising level cap, all with 20 unique and powerful items with 20 variations, and a year from now the uber gamers would have all beaten it all and acquired all the gear they want, and still be screaming about how the game is too easy and there is no end game. Essentially you are complaining that the sun rises and that the sky is blue. And?

[BigErkyKid]

You are asking for something that can't exist. It wouldn't matter how many high level quests or how much loot you added, eventually it will all be completed and acquired and we'll be back to "there is no end game. WAHHHH!" you could add 20 level 30 quests, 20 level 35 quests, 20 level 40 raids, without raising level cap, all with 20 unique and powerful items with 20 variations, and a year from now the uber gamers would have all beaten it all and acquired all the gear they want, and still be screaming about how the game is too easy and there is no end game. Essentially you are complaining that the sun rises and that the sky is blue. And?

Add more then.

They want us to keep playing the game, paying our subs and buying items from the store. They need to give us reason to do that.

The moment that veterans leave the game you might aswell pull the plug. DDO has no other population group numerous enough to be viable.

[Monkey-Boy]

People want ITEM based end game systems, not eTRs. I have yet to see anyone praising the eTR system and the amount of threads complaining about off destiny grinding is beyond counting. Somehow, it does not feel the same to grind XP compared to grinding items.

This.

While I do enjoy TRing (NOBODY who doesn't would still be here) I enjoy character advancement while at the height of my character's power more. The current game is TR or don't bother playing.

Turbine should just copy what they used to have, it worked great.

[Hafeal]

If people were to follow your advise here DDO would automatically die. It is multi live veterans current supporting the game.

If that is true - and I am not sure it is - it is simply becasue DDO has abandoned casual players for the past 5 years and it is a large reason why the game suffers. 'Cause, you know, what's here ain't making the game super successful.


*snip*

At some point did the scroll, seal shard grind end? No. In fact, it is still mocked for how bad the grind was and remains. Sometimes, people want something they don't really want.

The reality is that once you get the "item", you want to use it. Then, 'cause the item is soooo good, it makes the game easier. And then everyone hears how the game is "so easy". Then the elite crew, you know, the 15 people per server who have the item, suddenly want the game designed around them.

Overall, I am not opposed to Ellie's idea, however, we already know they are working on sentient weapons and, at some point a level cap of 30. Let's see what it looks like.

[Monkey-Boy]

The best solution to this debate is the "all is fine" crowd and the "we actually need an end-game this isn't a pointless XP treadmill" group should just put each other on ignore.

[BigErkyKid]

I
At some point did the scroll, seal shard grind end? No. In fact, it is still mocked for how bad the grind was and remains. Sometimes, people want something they don't really want.

The reality is that once you get the "item", you want to use it. Then, 'cause the item is soooo good, it makes the game easier. And then everyone hears how the game is "so easy". Then the elite crew, you know, the 15 people per server who have the item, suddenly want the game designed around them.

Overall, I am not opposed to Ellie's idea, however, we already know they are working on sentient weapons and, at some point a level cap of 30. Let's see what it looks like.

The grind could have been adjusted, but the concept was preferred.

The problem with uber items and uber gear exists only if they are so powerful universally that they simply outclass everything else. Allow for multiple viable sets of gear supporting multiple playstyles and you open the door for non trivialization and variety. Which is basically the spice of life in DDO. When one item or one build rules, the game bleeds.

[Hafeal]

So your solution is to stop playing DDO? All is fine right?

That is not what I said.

For a CHARACTER, at some point, the game is over. Time to retire that CHARACTER.

As a PLAYER, if you love the game, find another aspect of the game to enjoy if your CHARACTER has maxxed out.




SSo when you're down to 5% of the 2011 player numbers will all still be fine? I mean that's the advice you're giving to everyone, stop playing.

Again, it's not. And clearly, the devs have focused 100% of content decisions on level 15+ since 2009. 80%+ of that on level 18+.

Clearly, by your own point, that has not helped player sub numbers.

Time to try something else - like making a complicated, intimidating game, a 100% better experience for new and casual players from level 1 to 15 rather than the incessant obsession with what players should be doing at level 28+.

If you have been here and playing long enough to get multiple characters to 28, with multiple TRs, heroic and iconic, with multiple capped destinies, a cache of rare and exotic loot - and you cannot somehow find a way to enjoy the game, I think you have to take a step back and consider other options.

[Hafeal]

The grind could have been adjusted, but the concept was preferred.

The problem with uber items and uber gear exists only if they are so powerful universally that they simply outclass everything else. Allow for multiple viable sets of gear supporting multiple playstyles and you open the door for non trivialization and variety. Which is basically the spice of life in DDO. When one item or one build rules, the game bleeds.

I agree with your sentiment - and I think the devs are extremely cognizant to this idea in developing sentient weapons.

[LOOON375]

The game needs more NEW lvl30+ content.

[Nahiz]

Please, stop the flame war and mutual aggression (there are countless of pointless threads on this style vs. that style and casual vs. elitists) and keep the discussion on Ellis endgame gear idea.

I like the idea, it needs more feedback, it doesn´t need to be closed by Cordo just for a couple of guys blaming each other for DDO´s state.

[Ancient]

...why bother farming endgame for gear that you only use in endgame.

I don't grind exp super fast. It will take me months if not years to cap out my characters. When I understood the depths of the phrase I quoted, it changed my equipment goals. Specifically, I chase ML 20 gear with very few exceptions.

* I try to farm old epic items... still after a shard of the darkstorm helm.
* I worked on crafting. Crafting on a double slot gear item gives four customizable attributes in one slot.
* A weapon has to be a big upgrade for it to be worth messing with. Other slots, I make due with my ML 20 gear.

I still solo epic elites with my ML 20 gear sets. Still having fun running quests with my in-game friends. But why even bother running a raid for end game gear that won't be end game gear by the time I actually am ready to settle in for the end game?

Turbine has actually made the exact same strategic mistake with destinies. To grind destinies to improve your favorite destiny (with twists), you have to spend time in off-destinies. To improve your toon for the end-game via reincarnations, you have to spend time outside the end game.

[PermaBanned]

Please, stop the flame war and mutual aggression (there are countless of pointless threads on this style vs. that style and casual vs. elitists) and keep the discussion on Ellis endgame gear idea.

I like the idea, it needs more feedback, it doesn´t need to be closed by Cordo just for a couple of guys blaming each other for DDO´s state.

Ok, going back to the OP...



Playing endgame means not advancing xp towards past lives. In the old epics, you had to play heroics to get xp but you had to play end game to farm scrolls/seals/shards. The endgame had to be fun in the first place or why bother farming endgame for gear that you only use in endgame. But the endgame certainly had to provide something of practical value to make up for the inescapable economics of not advancing your xp. Earning seeds is just a fast road to reincarnation, certainly not a currency for solidifying an endgame crowd. Seems like we need something unique at endgame to farm or reincarnation will always be a no-brainer.
Reincarnation will always be a no-brainer so long as it provides something you want for your character. End game isn't (IMO ofc) what you do instead of gaining XP, it's what you do when you no longer have XP to gain - that is, you have all the PLs, Fate Points and Twists you want. When you no longer have XP to gain, the only path to advancement left is gear; but what happens when you get all the gear you want? Ellis's idea is fine one, but it only extends gear grind - it doesn't prevent finishing it.

[Qhualor]

Playing endgame means not advancing xp towards past lives. In the old epics, you had to play heroics to get xp but you had to play end game to farm scrolls/seals/shards. The endgame had to be fun in the first place or why bother farming endgame for gear that you only use in endgame. But the endgame certainly had to provide something of practical value to make up for the inescapable economics of not advancing your xp. Earning seeds is just a fast road to reincarnation, certainly not a currency for solidifying an endgame crowd. Seems like we need something unique at endgame to farm or reincarnation will always be a no-brainer.

There would be a lot more to do at end game for players if duping wasn't so rampant, same named loot on all difficulties and raid timer bypass didn't exist. This affects both sides. When there is nothing worth farming for after getting what you want, all there is to do is zerg/dupe back to cap and complain. Players in a non static group and not taking part or very little in cheesing complain, leave, log off earlier than normal or whatever. Attempting to solidify an end game just won't happen as long as these exist.

[Oliphant]

I don't think endgame necessarily means end state for every player or toon. Most of my "endgame" play occurred on my first life. As a new player I wasn't up for immediately reincarnating and doing the whole grind again (remember it seems like a way bigger deal when you do all that content for the first time) so I parked at 20 for a long time and made myself viable for the old epics. The main difference, what I miss most, was a big pool of players that tended to be on more at night and had smaller bin of quests to play. The positive value of endgame for me was it was the best social scene, capturing more players than any 2-level heroic range of players. I guess they've captured a lot of that by eliminating power leveling in epics, so you have 20-28 level toons all playing together. Something about the old endgame night raid social scene was better though (on Ghallanda at least).

I'm also skeptical of making endgame only EE. I think endgame can and should be a very long horizon. Think Beginning of the End (capped on EN), 11th hour (capped on EH) and The End of the Line (capped on EE). Aesthetically, I never liked EN, EH, EE versions of the same gear. I'd rather see some unique items you can only get playing EH/EE and other unique items you can only get playing EE. Personally, I'd like to the max level quests be very difficult, where EN even is no cakewalk, EH is tough, and EE is extremely challenging. The newer raids fit that bill (for me).

[BigErkyKid]

I'm also skeptical of making endgame only EE. ...
Personally, I'd like to the max level quests be very difficult, where EN even is no cakewalk, EH is tough, and EE is extremely challenging. The newer raids fit that bill (for me).

Disagree here. We already have the TR wheel for different difficulties. I think end game should be like it used to be, not tiered.

Otherwise it is back to square one regarding difficulties and incentives. How can it feel end game being a cakewalk?

[Inoukchuk]

Add more then.

They want us to keep playing the game, paying our subs and buying items from the store. They need to give us reason to do that.

The moment that veterans leave the game you might aswell pull the plug. DDO has no other population group numerous enough to be viable.

They are adding more. They're adding content as fast as they can. It's an 8 year old game with a small staff and a niche market. It's not like they have a billion $ a year to pump out new content.

[Knobull]

Well, what is the D&D "end game"?

[BigErkyKid]

Well, what is the D&D "end game"?

Epic levels equally, when your adventurer has a very deep story and moves from battling lone trolls to more "epic" creatures.

Or not. But in either case, DND has content for it and DDO has not.

So we really just ask for "meaningful" grinds. eTRs are not.

[BigErkyKid]

They are adding more. They're adding content as fast as they can. It's an 8 year old game with a small staff and a niche market. It's not like they have a billion $ a year to pump out new content.

If they cannot give us content they have to give us something else. A system that entertains us. And as many have voiced, eTRs are not everyone's cup of tea. Some do it not to leave the game, but I doubt it can keep the boat afloat for much longer.

This is, IMO, what the OP is asking for and he is not alone at it. A word from the devs on this long /mid term plans would be quite nice.

[slarden]

So we really just ask for "meaningful" grinds. eTRs are not.

Aren't all grinds "meaningless"?

[DarthCaedus]

Is trying to login a meaningful grind?

[BigErkyKid]

Aren't all grinds "meaningless"?

No, I don't think they are. Usually playing with a sense of direction (trying to achieve something) is enjoyable. It feels that aside of the fun you have playing there is an additional layer of "metagoals" or whatever that are additional fun.

What is not enjoyable is when you feel that content is trivial and the grind pointless. It just the worst possible scenario. Right now unfortunately that represents a lot of the gameplay in DDO.

So a non trivial setting to play (end game mythic or whatever) plus enjoyable goals (items, not XP for the XP) seems like a much better scenario to me.

[Oxarhamar]

Epic levels equally, when your adventurer has a very deep story and moves from battling lone trolls to more "epic" creatures.

Or not. But in either case, DND has content for it and DDO has not.

So we really just ask for "meaningful" grinds. eTRs are not.

While some of the player base may have prefered the, s/s/s epic grind but, a great many cared not for that system either.

Many player would never have stepped into epics until ETR gave them more of a reason to and still yet there are many who only, play Heroic.


ETR is infinitely more meaningful than the random loot grind to those who perfer Charicter progressing in a more measureable manor to collecting bits and bobs.

[Oliphant]

I'd prefer a simpler system than s/s/s, which is so efken random. Shroud currency or Haunted Halls black stones are two styles I prefer to s/s/s. Although s/s/s was sucessful at keeping a lot of folks interested for a long time, my sense is the world of mmo's has quickened and folks won't waste as many irreplaceable minutes on their lives for a peanut as they used to...