Why the rush?

[Emptea1]

Greetings to all,

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers and enjoy exploring the dungeons and other environments rather than rushing through them? I've joined adventuring groups only to find myself left far behind when I stop for a moment to marvel at something, drink a potion, or even pick up a treasure. Is this the mode that most player groups engage in?

[Oxarhamar]

Greetings to all,

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers and enjoy exploring the dungeons and other environments rather than rushing through them? I've joined adventuring groups only to find myself left far behind when I stop for a moment to marvel at something, drink a potion, or even pick up a treasure. Is this the mode that most player groups engage in?

After running the dungeons hundreds of times yes.

I still enjoy exploreing my way around on the first time but, after that yea it's full speed.

Welcome!

[Powerhungry]

Greetings to all,

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers and enjoy exploring the dungeons and other environments rather than rushing through them? I've joined adventuring groups only to find myself left far behind when I stop for a moment to marvel at something, drink a potion, or even pick up a treasure. Is this the mode that most player groups engage in?


Many of the PuGs you've joined sound like seasoned players doing the TR zerg. They will not stop and smell the flowers. They're only interested in gaining exp as fast as possible, and having done all of the quests many, many times they just want the completion and experience. Not all are like that. All of my toons are multi lifers and I still kill everything, break everything and pick up everything. We are out there, but we are becoming fewer. Don't join PuGs that say TR speed or zerg. Even byoh is an indication they will likely not wait for you.

BTW- welcome to the game and I hope you have better experiences

[Cleanincubus]

Greetings to all,

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers and enjoy exploring the dungeons and other environments rather than rushing through them? I've joined adventuring groups only to find myself left far behind when I stop for a moment to marvel at something, drink a potion, or even pick up a treasure. Is this the mode that most player groups engage in?

I would say that unless the ad on the LFM tab in the Social panel says otherwise, then yes, this is typical. Don't get me wrong, this is certainly not how all players play. But most do, especially in PUGs (Pick Up Groups), with random strangers. The way the game is now, the majority of players, certainly at higher levels and when it comes to Adventure Packs & Expansions, are just trying to get through the content as fast as possible to level up, and/or to do a quick TR (True Reincarnation). But there are options available to get what you want.

- You can post your own ad on the LFM tab, specifying stuff like "new players welcome", "no zerging".

- You can make a post on the subforum for your specific server, looking for a guild or a static group of players, that play how you do.

From there, it should be easy to meet new people, who share your play style. You are certainly not alone in wanting to actually enjoy the game, and not just sprint through it. I wish you luck!

[cdemeritt]

One of the biggest problems is that even if we "think" we are slowing down, many of us have done the quests so many times, we forget that there are things off to the sides, side tunnels and dead ends, puzzles people don't know and things you need to ignore until later... we can run a quest at half "normal" speed, and still leave newer players in the dark. Sometimes this is unintentional, for others have a keep up or get left behind attitude...

[janave]

What i dont get is,
guy joins quest
we are clearly taking our moment to prepare, as signed in chat
he zergs to the next quests
starts quest
soloes halfway

we reach quest, buff up, he is at 80%, at the boss we catch up, beat quest in 2 mins, if the quest short we are penalized for xp

then he does it on the next one, the next one, and so on

I dont care about zerging, but why does one joins a pug group to then solo?

I like to zerg, but not idiot zerg, i wait for everyone to enter the quest before doing anything in there. I dont want them to lose out on optional xp, loot, and overall the fun to contribute to the quest.

[Scrabbler]

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers and enjoy exploring the dungeons and other environments rather than rushing through them? I've joined adventuring groups only to find myself left far behind
You have noticed a serious mistake by the designers, but it's not all their fault.

Some of that will be inevitable because the other players have seen it all before; not to mention being on much stronger characters that can simply move faster. Your best bet is to find a couple people (1-2 is enough) from another area (facebook, a forum, etc), and invite them to install DDO with you.

[Oxarhamar]

What i dont get is,
guy joins quest
we are clearly taking our moment to prepare, as signed in chat
he zergs to the next quests
starts quest
soloes halfway

we reach quest, buff up, he is at 80%, at the boss we catch up, beat quest in 2 mins, if the quest short we are penalized for xp

then he does it on the next one, the next one, and so on

I dont care about zerging, but why does one joins a pug group to then solo?

I like to zerg, but not idiot zerg, i wait for everyone to enter the quest before doing anything in there. I dont want them to lose out on optional xp, loot, and overall the fun to contribute to the quest.

Why are you taking so long to start the quest?

Most quests you must be 10 minutes late to get a late entry what could you possibly be doing? gone to walk the dog?

[Makkuroi]

I think people starting quests ahead of the leader are an exception. Imho its common courtesy to at least ask before starting a quest if youre not the leader. Otherwise leader should be the one who is opening the quest (at least in a PUG).

Speed zerg happens a lot, most people who still play are vets with quite a lot of past lives behind their belt, you rarely see first lifers nowadays. But there are also TRs who prefer going slowly, some of my guildies belong into the category "flower sniffers" and I only run with them if im in a patient or social mood ;) theyre nice as persons but sometimes I just prefer to go fast.

[Makkuroi]

Why are you taking so long to start the quest?

Most quests you must be 10 minutes late to get a late entry what could you possibly be doing? gone to walk the dog?

That comment just shows you dont understand the OPs viewpoint. People have to repair, rebuff, sell off, get some gear from bank, restock pots and spell components, find quest giver, find quest entrance, go to the toilet, eat a sandwich, etc etc... not everybody is sitting there in his gamer diapers and runs one quest after the other on autopilot. (though most people are, probably without diapers)

[Oxarhamar]

That comment just shows you dont understand the OPs viewpoint. People have to repair, rebuff, sell off, get some gear from bank, restock pots and spell components, find quest giver, find quest entrance, go to the toilet, eat a sandwich, etc etc... not everybody is sitting there in his gamer diapers and runs one quest after the other on autopilot. (though most people are, probably without diapers)

I understand the OP completely and replied to the OP in comment #2

[Lonnbeimnech]

That comment just shows you dont understand the OPs viewpoint. People have to repair, rebuff, sell off, get some gear from bank, restock pots and spell components, find quest giver, find quest entrance, go to the toilet, eat a sandwich, etc etc... not everybody is sitting there in his gamer diapers and runs one quest after the other on autopilot. (though most people are, probably without diapers)

And other people would look at an lfm that says doing whatever quest, and assume that 6 people were going to do that quest. See if the lfm said 'going to eat a sandwich need mayo and lettuce, know the sandwich, bring your own napkin'. I would just avoid that one.

[BigErkyKid]

I'll tell you why the rush. Players:

- Have played the quests dozens of times (lower bound estimate)

- When they join a group, they want to quest, not wait for people. If you have to go to the bathroom or do a variety of random things don't place an LFM or join a group. When I join / post a group I expect to run at full speed to the quest and making people wait for than 1 minute to start is rude and intrusive on other people's time.

- Want to play, not to teach the game to random people. While answering some questions is common courtesy, do not expect people to babysit you. Vets are not morally obliged to help rookies: if you want help, post that in the LFM. That way you will get those who are willing to spend the time to help. Those people exist but even friendly people might react negatively at people who want to force it into them. For instance, the other day a rookie was asking in party chat to get passes to quests he didn't own and was rather aggressive about it. While I censored those who started bashing the rookie, I also told him that it was quite rude to impose on people like that.

- Know that exploration doesn't pay much in DDO. The majority of the rewards are in the main path and often alternative paths lead to either mediocre encounters (little XP, just a named mob to kill that drops a simple trash chest) or simply dead ends. There are some exceptions to this and people often go out of the way for them. But in general exploration is a 1 or 2 shot deal since after that you know what is ahead and the answer is often not much.

- I cannot emphasize this enough, they have played the quests a lot already. Given static content and quest layout there is absolutely no point in flower sniffing the 12th time. Hence, people often play just for the meta reason of XP and a tiny bit of times loot. They get a kick out of seeing how their new build is even more powerful or smart in some way.


So to the OP. A good number of players came to DDO from DnD. The majority left over the years and those still here have adjusted. DDO is not DnD, it is a fast paced action game inspired in the universe of DnD. Dungeon crawls, exploration, immersion, solving mysteries, being part of a fantasy world, all those are absent from DDO. You get that 4 times every 3-4 months if you are lucky (every update and for new content because epic version don't really feel new) and the rest of the time it is rushing through quests to acquire XP to gather PLs or try out whatever new build.

[Algreg]

Greetings to all,

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers and enjoy exploring the dungeons and other environments rather than rushing through them? I've joined adventuring groups only to find myself left far behind when I stop for a moment to marvel at something, drink a potion, or even pick up a treasure. Is this the mode that most player groups engage in?


most players will have experienced these dungeons 10, 20, maybe a hundred times - how would you play them through in that case?

[Azarddoze]

Game too easy = speed run as a challenge. When you know you can't die...
Game too old = speed run old content. Totally understandable after multiple run through.
No incentive or interrest to slow down (except THE JOURNEY, right) = speed run content.

Yeah... so we speed run content once we stop being bad, become OP (lack of balance) and know what we're doing I guess. It's fun sometimes to take your time. It's also fun sometimes to feel overpowered. Just not all the time for everyone. Some are looking for something more as well when playing games.

As a quick exemple, a popular game like binding of isaac (since there's a new version) as nothing but repeatable content. Sure it's random, but it ends up being the same everytime. What changes every other runs? Incentives of unlocking stuff and the challenge level. That in itself (coupled with a fun simple game) is enjoyable for thousands and thousands of people. It's a simple concept, but it's something people want when they play a game. No lore focus, no complication... just delivering and concentrating on what some gamers enjoy. Not all of them, of course. But it's something that is important to a whole lot of people. Challenge + incentives according to that challenge. If you remove that, you've got people playing for the sake of it which is (to me) alike to an addiction or just plainly killing time. It's ok... for some. I mean we all play games as a way to kill time, but brainless playing is just that, brainless playing.

MMOs usually have all of this together in a single huge game and that is why they are successful. Now, if you remove x or y, you stop catering to as many people. And you've got speed runners doing so just for the sake of it.



TL/DR : People enjoy different things and have different reasons when it comes to enjoying a game over another (and the way they play it). And it's fine the way it is, as long as the game devs themselves understand this. The OP doesn't need to which is a good thing... until it influences decisions.

Lastly, people should play with others which the gameplay (intentions, skills, motivations) is somewhat alike. We can see what no limitation created over the long term. Like this post, this situation, etc. It's simply a negative experience for everyone to have total strangers ruin your fun, as uber or bad you may be.

PS: So let's have difficulties that really separate players based on skills and motivations and not purely on incentives. We all want incentives. But our way to get there aren't the same and they are conflictual.

[Algreg]

You have noticed a serious mistake by the designers, but it's not all their fault.

Some of that will be inevitable because the other players have seen it all before; not to mention being on much stronger characters that can simply move faster. Your best bet is to find a couple people (1-2 is enough) from another area (facebook, a forum, etc), and invite them to install DDO with you.

this is not a design mistake at all. TRing is the main reason very experienced and powerful players do low level content. Without it, there would be no groups at all by now safe for the rare occasion of the few new players forming one. So, zerg groups or none at all, what would you consider the better design?

[Angelic-council]

Many of the PuGs you've joined sound like seasoned players doing the TR zerg. They will not stop and smell the flowers. They're only interested in gaining exp as fast as possible, and having done all of the quests many, many times they just want the completion and experience. Not all are like that. All of my toons are multi lifers and I still kill everything, break everything and pick up everything. We are out there, but we are becoming fewer. Don't join PuGs that say TR speed or zerg. Even byoh is an indication they will likely not wait for you.

BTW- welcome to the game and I hope you have better experiences

Exactly.

I been saying this for a very long time now, that, storytelling is very important in MMO worlds. Something like "Spinner of shadows" was pretty cool. There is this character called "silver flame" helping you to fight against evil spider drow, guiding you through the quest. Then in the very end... You fail, get caught by the irresistible spell, where you can't make any movements, but to wait and enjoy the show.

We need more of that in this game. However, this TR system and the game mechanism killing it.

My idea was to introduce (7 heavens, home of celestials, angels). It's a map where powerful creatures with high resistances take place. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Celestia.

In this map, it's nothing like before.. You can't zerg the quest or you screw up. Celestials can heal and even resurrect themselves. In this map, dramatic storyline awaits, you can finally choose which path to take (in the quest), depending on the path, story will change. Also, you should research more about 7 heavens: especially heart of the heaven.. Top layer: chronias, where all the souls gather, and whoever reached the top of the mountain has never returned.. Imagine that, it could be a raid, battle against plane ruler, master of the souls.

DDO needs some serious storyline, not just NPCs chatting with each other and you have to read it, blah blah blah, boring! Skip!. Lol

[Scrabbler]

this is not a design mistake at all. TRing is the main reason very experienced and powerful players do low level content.
A better design could've put those players back in low-level content without massively overpowering their characters. The level number next to a character's name should be a good indication of how powerful he is. Instead, a level 5 guy who has nice gear, several TRs, guild ship, and so on, is better than a level 8 character without those things.

They can't stop older players from having more skill and knowledge; but they didn't need to give them raw numerical superiority too.


there would be no groups at all by now safe for the rare occasion of the few new players forming one
Other solutions have been shown in different MMORPGs; it's basically a solved problem.


So, zerg groups or none at all, what would you consider the better design?
Indeed it would be preferable for new players to not be presented with a list of zerg groups, as if those were appropriate for them to join.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

You think that's bad, I know most of the dungeons, and do not stop to look around; pass by monsters, and basically do everything I can to keep up... yet I am still in the back and rarely even get to fight anything.

On a similar note: if I do fight something I maybe get in a couple of meaningless shots and then someone else blasts it out of existence with ease.



Try as I might I am either not in the room at all or not doing any significant damage to anything in a great majority of PUGs.

This is not in every group, and maybe it is not really in the majority of them; but it sure feels like it far too often for my tastes.

[Artrish]

Are there any groups of DDO players that....?

The player base is huge so most likely there is a group for whatever it is you want to participate in. Like many things in life though, finding a way to meet these players and connect with them is the challenge.

The grouping boards are a mix of anything and everything. All are able to create one. I find that players that are confident in the quests and able to complete efficiently are often ones to host a group regularly and i have experienced many reasons as to why this occurs, one of which i would say is the experience in leading a group and experiencing the variety of players that join in. Some are pleasant, others not so much. Would you post your group up if people kept joining that wanted to play a different style and voiced that to you in a manner you found to be unpleasant to your liking?

Players that are confident and efficient have run the quests in the hundreds of repeats, as has been mentioned by other posters. There are a few varied styles these players use, a sample of common styles used can be found here http://ddowiki.com/page/Social_panel and the terminology contained within that link is a good way to describe your group theme in your own groupings should ou choose to host one.

It is a very fun game, don't give up hope in finding what you want. It exists and persistently trying to find it will result in you having chances to participate in the groups you feel you would enjoy. See how the game is and your outlook is once you have experienced the style you describe yourself as wanting.

Of special note, from my own experience. I started out thinking i was a flower sniffer (as a descriptor of common slang) though turns out that flower sniffing is only something i enjoy on ocassion to break the monotony of the prefered playstyle i enjoy most. The thought of playing that playstyle non stop sends me to sleep these days. Though i have moments where i enjoy it, and i know who to go to that i know i will enjoy those moments with and feel they enjoy my company along the way.

Above all, good luck and have fun in the journey.

[Angelic-council]

You think that's bad, I know most of the dungeons, and do not stop to look around; pass by monsters, and basically do everything I can to keep up... yet I am still in the back and rarely even get to fight anything.

On a similar note: if I do fight something I maybe get in a couple of meaningless shots and then someone else blasts it out of existence with ease.



Try as I might I am wither not in the room at all or not doing any significant damage to anything in a great majority of PUGs.

This is not in every group, and maybe it is not really in the majority of them; but it sure feels like it far too often for my tastes.

This is problematic in DDO because you don't actually enjoy the contect.. I don't know how to put this, but something doesn't feel right with all that mechanism. It could be improved... I know this.

[Algreg]

A better design could've put those players back in low-level content without massively overpowering their characters. The level number next to a character's name should be a good indication of how powerful he is. Instead, a level 5 guy who has nice gear, several TRs, guild ship, and so on, is better than a level 8 character without those things.

They can't stop older players from having more skill and knowledge; but they didn't need to give them raw numerical superiority too.


Other solutions have been shown in different MMORPGs; it's basically a solved problem.


Indeed it would be preferable for new players to not be presented with a list of zerg groups, as if those were appropriate for them to join.

Your first suggestion would leave no incentive to run TRs as that power is exactly what people are chasing after with the system (even though epic level mechanics have rather marginalized TR boons).

Other solutions have been integrated with very different game systems and game worlds - and systems like those weren´t really big in 2006.

No, it would not be preferable. There barely are any new players. You really prefer no groups at all to join over veteran groups?

PS: And even in games with deleveling, mentor/sidekick systems etc. the differences are very noticeable. Simply because a veteran player will know how to build a character, what to bring etc. There were speedruns in CoH, leaving newbies flabbergasted, just like GW2 dungeon runs now.

[Blackheartox]

What i dont get is,
guy joins quest
we are clearly taking our moment to prepare, as signed in chat
he zergs to the next quests
starts quest
soloes halfway

we reach quest, buff up, he is at 80%, at the boss we catch up, beat quest in 2 mins, if the quest short we are penalized for xp

then he does it on the next one, the next one, and so on

I dont care about zerging, but why does one joins a pug group to then solo?

I like to zerg, but not idiot zerg, i wait for everyone to enter the quest before doing anything in there. I dont want them to lose out on optional xp, loot, and overall the fun to contribute to the quest.


I do that only when solo, when i join groups i wait for others to get to quest, when i post lfm idc when others step in but usually i wait for some time.


Opener, we all enjoyed quests for the first time, issue is ddo isnt a newbie friendly game and if it is then the older players will drive em away in a matter of a week or 2 tops.
You cant make me enjoy slow checking of every rock in a quest that i did over 700 times /yes i had in old completition counter a alt that had naerly 560 colleberator completions, counting in all other alts and mains trs i prolly did some quests well over 1000 times, i just cant find a single thing that is new in those quests anymore. (i know im crazy but thats not the point heh)

[Chauncey1]

Was questing this weekend with some guildies and a regular in our circle and we ran the Eveningstar stuff on EE and they were power zerging. In Death Undone, someone blew up the library before anyone could even say "Don't blow up the chest!"
And in Trial by Fury, they flew ahead so fast I couldn't keep up and missed out on the end chest.

Frustrating.
I like getting quests done fast, but no so dang fast that it takes the fun right out of it.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Was questing this weekend with some guildies and a regular in our circle and we ran the Eveningstar stuff on EE and they were power zerging. In Death Undone, someone blew up the library before anyone could even say "Don't blow up the chest!"
And in Trial by Fury, they flew ahead so fast I couldn't keep up and missed out on the end chest.

Frustrating.
I like getting quests done fast, but no so dang fast that it takes the fun right out of it.

You need to get some grease clickies.

[Chauncey1]

You need to get some grease clickies.

Hehehehe.

[walkin_dude]

Greetings to all,

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers and enjoy exploring the dungeons and other environments rather than rushing through them? I've joined adventuring groups only to find myself left far behind when I stop for a moment to marvel at something, drink a potion, or even pick up a treasure. Is this the mode that most player groups engage in?

My lfms usually say "all welcome" and "no zerg". Please feel free to join me. :) I would be happy for a chance to play without constantly feeling the struggle to keep up. Mind you, I'm not a "newb" or whatever, but my toons are on first through third lives. There is a huge difference between even a third life toon and one with triple heroic and epic completion and fully optimized kit.

Edit: Yes, I am pretty sure I could have done a completionist by now, even at my slow pace, if I'd played only one toon all this time. But I've got numerous alts spread over six servers, and I've enjoyed playing that way, so...

[Qhualor]

Greetings to all,

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers and enjoy exploring the dungeons and other environments rather than rushing through them? I've joined adventuring groups only to find myself left far behind when I stop for a moment to marvel at something, drink a potion, or even pick up a treasure. Is this the mode that most player groups engage in?

Yes. This is typical in most groups. I would suggest posting an lfm and describing your preferred play style to anyone who wishes to join or try finding like minded players as a static group.

[walkin_dude]

Was questing this weekend with some guildies and a regular in our circle and we ran the Eveningstar stuff on EE and they were power zerging. In Death Undone, someone blew up the library before anyone could even say "Don't blow up the chest!"
And in Trial by Fury, they flew ahead so fast I couldn't keep up and missed out on the end chest.

Frustrating.
I like getting quests done fast, but no so dang fast that it takes the fun right out of it.

Heh, not only that, but most of my toons don't have the cool rings and weapons from chain 2 yet. :P They are pretty fun quests if you run the whole thing, but there's not much to them when you just do the bare minimum for completion.

[phillymiket]

Greetings to all,

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers and enjoy exploring the dungeons and other environments rather than rushing through them? I've joined adventuring groups only to find myself left far behind when I stop for a moment to marvel at something, drink a potion, or even pick up a treasure. Is this the mode that most player groups engage in?

Hi there.

There was a point about a year or two ago where I would have said don't join a group that says "Zerg", "Speed" or "IP"
The truth is, these days almost all groups, unless stated otherwise, are speed runs.
Almost nobody even labels the LFMs as such anymore.
The reasons are listed very well above.

When there is new content, I run it solo or with a small group of friends first so I can explore because even the first day of new content people will run ahead.

People waiting for the star to start, people waiting to buff, people waiting for all to enter before opening a chest or even completing the quest - these are all common courtesies of a by-gone day.
I won't say that nobody adheres to these courtesies, but enough ignore them that somebody is bound to run ahead.

When you find players who play in your style and at your pace, add them to your friends list.
Try to find a core to group with. I know this is hard to do.
You can post your own LFMs that say "stick together". "slow run" or whatever, but again, that doesn't mean everyone in the party will respect your wishes.

So sorry, and I feel you pain but don't be too angry with the speed zerg people.
This is an older game, those people have been playing for half a decade or more.
For the largest percent of LFMS, the speed runner's behavior - zerging ahead - is welcome and encouraged.

[FestusHood]

Was questing this weekend with some guildies and a regular in our circle and we ran the Eveningstar stuff on EE and they were power zerging. In Death Undone, someone blew up the library before anyone could even say "Don't blow up the chest!"
And in Trial by Fury, they flew ahead so fast I couldn't keep up and missed out on the end chest.

Frustrating.
I like getting quests done fast, but no so dang fast that it takes the fun right out of it.

I understand how things like that happen in pugs, but it makes me sad that your own guildies would show so little consideration.

[Chauncey1]

I understand how things like that happen in pugs, but it makes me sad that your own guildies would show so little consideration.


Yeah....it kinda got under my skin. *edit* For a minute. I knew it was going to be an insane zergfest as they're all rushing to get ER completionist before the level cap goes to 30.
It was more the loss of loot that was annoying.
I like mah shineys!

[DakFrost]

That comment just shows you dont understand the OPs viewpoint. People have to repair, rebuff, sell off, get some gear from bank, restock pots and spell components, find quest giver, find quest entrance, go to the toilet, eat a sandwich, etc etc... not everybody is sitting there in his gamer diapers and runs one quest after the other on autopilot. (though most people are, probably without diapers)

If you need to do all that between each quest you probably have a weight issue and suffer from IBS.

Most people can run several quests in a row without having to take 10-20 min breaks between.

[Sam1313]

Greetings to all,

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers and enjoy exploring the dungeons and other environments rather than rushing through them? I've joined adventuring groups only to find myself left far behind when I stop for a moment to marvel at something, drink a potion, or even pick up a treasure. Is this the mode that most player groups engage in?

I started playing Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2 Edition. You know back when you had to calculate thac0 (To Hit an Armor Class of 0) When I discovered this game DDO it was very new and very different to me. Different rules and everything because it was based on the 3rd edition rules set. No problem I adjusted very well and learned them. But the graphics and visualizations I think are just plain awesome. It is almost exactly how I imagined it to be while playing the pen and paper AD&D 2E. So I created a human wizard character and set off to save the world. I crawled through every dungeon I ran from level 1 all the way to level 20. Then they raised the cap to level 24. I crawled through those levels 20-24 then they raised the cap to 26 then 28. I did the same thing. I then True Reincarnated and started back at level 1.
Ok 5 lives later on several characters and almost 4 years later I still do the same thing. I like to take my time and actually read the storyline and crawl through a quest and actually take in the atmosphere and the vibe and feeling of it all. I have found myself soloing these days due to this because most public groups I have participated in would just Invis Run ZERG to the end boss kill it and Finish Out. I can't for the life of me figure out where or what the fun in that playstyle is but to each his own I guess.
So Myself and a handful of players within my guild have the same train of thought. When we are able to do so we will group together and actually spend an hour or longer in whatever quest we are running just exploring and examining every nook and cranny. So yes there are still a few out there like yourself.

[Singular]

That comment just shows you dont understand the OPs viewpoint. People have to repair, rebuff, sell off, get some gear from bank, restock pots and spell components, find quest giver, find quest entrance, go to the toilet, eat a sandwich, etc etc... not everybody is sitting there in his gamer diapers and runs one quest after the other on autopilot. (though most people are, probably without diapers)

I can't speak for others, but I am without diapers.

[Erdrique]

There are a large number of players who are working through heroic reincarnations and/or have created new low level characters that have done the lower quests a number of times, making it just natural for them to move through them at a fast clip. One thing I have noticed though, when I purposefully force myself to slow down, there is always something new I noticed that I didn't see before. Although I try not to "zerg" I do tend to move through a majority of quests fairly quickly only because I already know what to expect, not because I'm purposefully zerging.

[Ralmeth]

Greetings to all,

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers and enjoy exploring the dungeons and other environments rather than rushing through them? I've joined adventuring groups only to find myself left far behind when I stop for a moment to marvel at something, drink a potion, or even pick up a treasure. Is this the mode that most player groups engage in?

Hey there and welcome to DDO! When I was younger I used to play PnP D&D too:) The issue, as some others have stated, is that the quests don't change every time you run them, so once you know a quest, people tend to run through them quickly.

My recommendation is to find other people new to DDO. I would look around to see if there is a newer guild of newer people, or you could start your own guild! Probably the most PnP like feel I think you can get in DDO is in a static guild. This is where you have a guild of the same group of people who meet once a week (or however often you like) and adventure together and explore the game. I ran a static guild some years ago and it was a blast! In general, some tips to start your own static guild are:
1) Think about what day & time you want to play...a time you can commit to and works well in your schedule.
2) Think about what rules you want for the group...How large of a group, do you want to assign different roles or let people play what they want? For example, do you want the classic Fighter, Cleric, Magic User and Rogue? Or in DDO's terms these roles could be tank (ex. Paladin or Fighter), trapper (ex. Ranger/Rogue, Wizard/Rogue, pure Rogue), arcane caster (ex. Wizard or Sorcerer), healer (ex. Cleric, FVS or Druid), etc. Do you want to use the auction house & brokers, or only use what people acquire in the group? What other rules / things would you like out of the group?
3) Make a post in the Static guild section outlining your group. I bet you'll get people to join.

Hope that helps & good luck:)

[catouse9]

You think that's bad, I know most of the dungeons, and do not stop to look around; pass by monsters, and basically do everything I can to keep up... yet I am still in the back and rarely even get to fight anything.

On a similar note: if I do fight something I maybe get in a couple of meaningless shots and then someone else blasts it out of existence with ease.



Try as I might I am either not in the room at all or not doing any significant damage to anything in a great majority of PUGs.

This is not in every group, and maybe it is not really in the majority of them; but it sure feels like it far too often for my tastes.

I have this issue quiet often as well... I figured it was because I am kind of new at first but then i only started PUGing in quests I knew really well(well in my guestamation) and still have trouble keeping up-I think sometimes it is the overall speed of my character but wehn running a bard or monk this just should nto be the case... just started trying to buidl characters I can solo on is the only soultion I have found so far.

[Scrabbler]

Your first suggestion would leave no incentive to run TRs as that power is exactly what people are chasing after with the system (even though epic level mechanics have rather marginalized TR boons).
Nope. It would still give exactly the same amount of power as an incentive. You just wouldn't have that power when low level.


Other solutions have been integrated with very different game systems and game worlds - and systems like those weren´t really big in 2006.
You're quite confused if you think the year 2006 has anything to do with DDO's reincarnation rules. In 2006, the DDO designers had the opinion that enhancement respec was a bad thing!

[LeadHero5]

There are the true new players, I even grouped with one over the weekend. There are casual/tourist types who like to experience the quest more than the xp. That's what I am. There are vets that usually move pretty fast but are polite. Then the bitter vets where it's 'keep up and don't die'. There is nothing wrong or better about any group over any other, they just can't mix. The downside is most LFM's are posted by the last two types. I would think the first two are more free/premium and 'shy' about starting their own groups. That is the population we have now and there isn't much an 'outside' mechanic can do to improve grouping between the types. This is multi player; post a group and label it 'non zerg' even if you also have to ask for an 'elite opener'. Build a list of players that you like grouping with.

Here's a challenge to anyone reading this who belongs to one of the first two groups and who usually doesn't post LFM's. Post one this week. It will be ok, it might even be great.

[Livmo]

PUG with Livmo on Sarlona.

Although I'm often charecterized as an unrepentant zerger, I do like to flower sniff and break all the breakables. Whether you want it fast and hard or slow and long, it doesn't matter to me. I'm fine with either. Will slow down upon request :D

Also, I don't mind explaining a quest/raid, and/or doing all the optionals, or taking breaks in quest/raid as needed at the right spot(s).

[moomooprincess]

If you have the guts to tell the group you are a new player, the truly good players will slow down to help you out.

I started in 2007. It was a lot different back then.

I was a cleric, so I was blindly invited to join lots and lots of groups. I would join and then they would promptly leave me in the dark dungeon map expecting me to find them. Inevitably, I would wander into something and struggle. Then, I would leave the group.

After a few of these events, I decided I would be better off soloing to learn the dungeons and game.

The next time, I ALWAYS explained I was a new player. Most players back then slowed down, but there were still a few that could not help but be synonym for donkeys.

Now, the opposite is true. Only occasionally will you find the player that will slow down and help you learn.

[bsquishwizzy]

What i dont get is,
guy joins quest
we are clearly taking our moment to prepare, as signed in chat
he zergs to the next quests
starts quest
soloes halfway

we reach quest, buff up, he is at 80%, at the boss we catch up, beat quest in 2 mins, if the quest short we are penalized for xp

then he does it on the next one, the next one, and so on

I dont care about zerging, but why does one joins a pug group to then solo?

I like to zerg, but not idiot zerg, i wait for everyone to enter the quest before doing anything in there. I dont want them to lose out on optional xp, loot, and overall the fun to contribute to the quest.

It is a combination of factors. The first is usually that they are running an XP pot. The second is that manners and decent social skills is wholly lacking in anyone born after 1975 (or thereabouts). The final factor is one of two possibilities: the need to show off, or some strange need to socialize by proximity and/or the sense they are “helping” you by running the quest for you.

I had one guy jump into a PUG I was in with friends who zerged the entire quest, blowing past all of the optionals, and then tell us he was dropping group because he was running an XP pot and we went too slow for him.

I could have zerged right with him, but I was with some friends, and it would have been rude to do so. And, likewise, he was telling us how to zap past a bunch of stuff easily…which we never wanted to do in the first place.

I mean, it was a while ago when this happened. It was clear to me after that then whenever I posted an LFM, I’d have to now post fifteen qualifying details because it wasn’t just enough to post that an LFM was a zerg…you now had to post if it WASN’T a zerg as well.

There used to be a time when communication, civility, and manners were really important things. However, that’s been on the wane for some time now. And if you complain about someone coming into your group and spoiling your experience, it’s somehow your fault. You didn’t “do enough” to prevent it.

Of course this criticism means little considering how things go when my wife and I play pinochle with family members. Mainly because, on a number of occasions, it seemed like the match was going to end in divorce…

[goodspeed]

Greetings to all,

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers and enjoy exploring the dungeons and other environments rather than rushing through them? I've joined adventuring groups only to find myself left far behind when I stop for a moment to marvel at something, drink a potion, or even pick up a treasure. Is this the mode that most player groups engage in?

First, treasure sucks. I'm serious their is no economy whatsoever so it's vender trash. Even tomes are nearly useless not that ud find one in there anyway since they drop kicked the % chance.

Second, besides a few quests, even elite is a cakewalk. Hell even when their were groups to the max and goofballs that had this mentality of needing a healer (lol mostly barbs and fighters) you still steamrolled ahead cutting things down. Of course the healer was always their waiting, seething with unbridled fury as they made straw ethegy dolls for the moment they could gloat if you messed up timed it wrong and died. (I still laughed at em lol.) ah I miss those rage quits in delera's... anyways, their could be someone out their that's maybe a first timer. But for the most part players have been here for years of years of years and the sole redeaming feature that kept this game going was TRing.

Now back in that time xp really sucked. And it didn't help turb kept kickn it in the nuts. And their was no daily 20% or reset, a straight the more you do it the less it gives forever. (flippn nightmare when epic levels came and it crossed over) So yes the standard zerg elite hard norm hard hard was done and xp per minute was the defining factor of weather a quest was even bothered with.


Also to add to the timer part your not automatically penalized until a certain point in time. I think 9 or 11min?

[thakorian]

If you have the guts to tell the group you are a new player, the truly good players will slow down to help you out.

So much this.

OP, The game is old and we have a low influx of new players, so most people assume others are aware of the circumstances they're about to enter when they join groups. Every single one of us needed help and time to understand things when we were new to the game, so I find it odd that being new is a bit of a taboo. Just say it out loud if you are new and/or don't know the content, I think most players don't mind at all.

If you mind your surroundings and ask questions as to how to accomplish objectives and how to be more effective in that particular quest, most people will oblige. Few will ignore you, even fewer people will ridicule you, but keep those people in mind when you are at a point when you're able to start teaching others and don't be like that. Reduce the percentage of dimwits in the game. Always be inquisitive and vigilant, knowledge and skill will follow. Best of luck and remember to have fun playing.

My 2 cents.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Seems to me that people play this game to do something inside a quest.
Makes zero sense to me that anyone would enjoy watching someone else or five someone elses having fun while that person plays catch-up during the entire quest.


So that means that leaving anyone behind, EVER! is downright rude.

And all of you vets who know everything about the game should also know there is a nice little map with blue dots on it to tell you that you have left someone behind.

Go ahead and try to justify your leaving someone behind and out of the fun all you want to; you are still being rude, not nice, etc.

If they went AFK, ok.
If they spent some ridiculous amount of time doing something else... hmmm.. maybe, depending on the circumstances.

If you are the guy with the star, and you clearly told them you wanted to go fast...... maybe....

But in all cases, leaving someone behind, is leaving them out of the fun.

And in almost all cases, it is rude.

[BigErkyKid]

Seems to me that people play this game to do something inside a quest.
Makes zero sense to me that anyone would enjoy watching someone else or five someone elses having fun while that person plays catch-up during the entire quest.


So that means that leaving anyone behind, EVER! is downright rude.

And all of you vets who know everything about the game should also know there is a nice little map with blue dots on it to tell you that you have left someone behind.

Go ahead and try to justify your leaving someone behind and out of the fun all you want to; you are still being rude, not nice, etc.

If they went AFK, ok.
If they spent some ridiculous amount of time doing something else... hmmm.. maybe, depending on the circumstances.

If you are the guy with the star, and you clearly told them you wanted to go fast...... maybe....

But in all cases, leaving someone behind, is leaving them out of the fun.

And in almost all cases, it is rude.

No. It is rude to expect anyone to adapt to your own playstyle.

No one has the moral right to force others to play as he/she wishes. And as a matter of fact, you actually can't. It is as easy as leaving the group if you don't like how things are going.

[DakFrost]

Seems to me that people play this game to do something inside a quest.
Makes zero sense to me that anyone would enjoy watching someone else or five someone elses having fun while that person plays catch-up during the entire quest.


So that means that leaving anyone behind, EVER! is downright rude.

And all of you vets who know everything about the game should also know there is a nice little map with blue dots on it to tell you that you have left someone behind.

Go ahead and try to justify your leaving someone behind and out of the fun all you want to; you are still being rude, not nice, etc.

If they went AFK, ok.
If they spent some ridiculous amount of time doing something else... hmmm.. maybe, depending on the circumstances.

If you are the guy with the star, and you clearly told them you wanted to go fast...... maybe....

But in all cases, leaving someone behind, is leaving them out of the fun.

And in almost all cases, it is rude.

You know what I find rude? People that expect others to wait for them after they join an LFM and then proceed to run to their ship for buffs, sell, repair, visit the vendors, and sort inventory.

It's the main reason why I put "IP" in my LFM's, so that people can't complain that the group didn't wait for them while they prepped a lasagna, walked their dog, or defecated while reading the latest Harry Potter.

So no, leaving someone behind is not always rude. Often, the person being rude is the one dawdling.

[phillymiket]

So that means that leaving anyone behind, EVER! is downright rude.


No one has the moral right to force others to play as he/she wishes.

Somewhere between these two is where I see the line.

Obviously, the bottom line is you can do whatever you want - no one can stop you.
This isn't about anyone's rights, it's about DDO etiquette.

To me, leaving someone flat-out behind, like behind a locked door, is almost always a no-no.

If someone joins a party and is simply struggling to keep up now and then - but not actually blocked - then lending a hand is the nice thing to do.
If you aren't into "doing the nice thing" then you are not obligated to do anything.
If someone constantly can't keep up then that's on them, in my book. You can't expect the party to handhold the whole quest.

If you join a party and the leader expresses a certain style then you are obligated to play in that manner IMO.
It is on the joiner to politely leave the party if it is too fast or too slow for them.

As I see it, you shouldn't start a quest w/o asking the star if it's Ok.
You shouldn't open a chest unless all are inside or unless the star says it's Ok
And you shouldn't complete a quest unless all are in or the star says its Ok.

[Seikojin]

PUG with Livmo on Sarlona.

Although I'm often charecterized as an unrepentant zerger, I do like to flower sniff and break all the breakables. Whether you want it fast and hard or slow and long, it doesn't matter to me. I'm fine with either. Will slow down upon request :D

Also, I don't mind explaining a quest/raid, and/or doing all the optionals, or taking breaks in quest/raid as needed at the right spot(s).

Considering what is in U24, we should rally and do a xoriat madness thing like High Lords do with raids. Xoriatfest. Doing the xoriat quests and the raid in the subterrane until U24 launches. All barb runs.

[BigErkyKid]

Somewhere between these two is where I see the line.

Obviously, the bottom line is you can do whatever you want - no one can stop you.
This isn't about anyone's rights, it's about DDO etiquette.

To me, leaving someone flat-out behind, like behind a locked door, is almost always a no-no.

If someone joins a party and is simply struggling to keep up now and then - but not actually blocked - then lending a hand is the nice thing to do.
If you aren't into "doing the nice thing" then you are not obligated to do anything.
If someone constantly can't keep up then that's on them, in my book. You can't expect the party to handhold the whole quest.

If you join a party and the leader expresses a certain style then you are obligated to play in that manner IMO.
It is on the joiner to politely leave the party if it is too fast or too slow for them.

As I see it, you shouldn't start a quest w/o asking the star if it's Ok.
You shouldn't open a chest unless all are inside or unless the star says it's Ok
And you shouldn't complete a quest unless all are in or the star says its Ok.

The problem being pointed out in the thread is not very basic courtesy, rather others changing the way they play to help or adapt to other people's style. Even zergers toss each other a cocoon now and then.

Usually the problem is that people aren't happy with some zerging styles but somehow choose not to abandon the party because they don't want to solo or have to form another group.

The issue of course is that people are forced to play with other players with different styls that they don't unlike because quite simply there aren't that many players around to choose.

There is no way to solve that. I guess they could merge servers and admit that the playercount is too low for so many servers, but that would be admitting that the game is going down. Server mergers are clear sign of decline and they might not want to send that message yet.

[Loromir]

Why are you taking so long to start the quest?

Most quests you must be 10 minutes late to get a late entry what could you possibly be doing? gone to walk the dog?

It shouldn't matter why it takes him so long. If it's not your group...you should wait. If you don't want to wait...drop and form your own group.

[Vanhooger]

I love zerg and see how fast I can do a quest. It's the only challenge that ddo can offer as it is now (sadly).

Quite often people rage quit because I go too fast, but nobody forced them to join my pug.

If I join other people pug, I try to help newbie if they ask. If they don't say a word is kind of difficult helping them out.

[Sam1313]

Snipped.
The second is that manners and decent social skills is wholly lacking in anyone born after 1975 (or thereabouts)

Exactly. a + to this.

[phillymiket]

Usually the problem is that people aren't happy with some zerging

I just don't see it as that complicated.

If you create the LFM you can set reasonable guidelines regarding the pace.

If others do as you have asked, great. If not the only response available is to kick after the quest and add to your /ignore list.

If you join a LFM that is unlabeled than you really have no room to complain about the style of play other than the basic few no-no's I listed above.

While I would personally love a return to the days of gathering, buffing and sticking together in quests those days are long gone.

Does that make it harder on new people? Yes.

But then again, they have joined a game that people have played for years.

I seem to recall making a thread myself 5 years ago or so where I pointed out how challenging grouping was for me as an unfamiliar player.

The gap between new players and vets has gotten larger and will only get larger as time goes on.

It's just a fact of the game and there is nothing to do for it.

The only real comfort you can offer a new player is to tell them that it will get easier as they learn.

[HAL]

Somewhere between these two is where I see the line.

Obviously, the bottom line is you can do whatever you want - no one can stop you.
This isn't about anyone's rights, it's about DDO etiquette.

Serious question: Let's say you join a club of people who like to get together and see sights. One time they are looking at architecture, another time they are looking at art, etc. Different people will be there depending on their interest. Do you think it is right for most of the people to leave 1 or 2 people behind? You all decided to do this as a group - isn't it impolite to just walk as fast as you want ignoring someone who might be looking at stuff a little longer than others? Certainly if someone is taking an extraordinary longer time you might talk to that person and ask if they are having difficulties of some kind or whatever, but you don't just leave them. That's what a group does - adjust to accommodate everyone.

Etiquette is becoming a thing of the past because people are so used to not considering others online.

[HAL]

Greetings to all,

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers and enjoy exploring the dungeons and other environments rather than rushing through them? I've joined adventuring groups only to find myself left far behind when I stop for a moment to marvel at something, drink a potion, or even pick up a treasure. Is this the mode that most player groups engage in?

I have 2 static groups that I play with who both played D&D. The first group are people I started my guild with. The second group has 2 players who started DDO more recently. In the first group we don't zerg. We always do all the optionals, break all the boxes, etc. If anyone asked, I would have said we played the quests pretty slowly. However when the 2 new players started and we formed the second group, I was amazed at how much we had to slow down. They didn't know the quests, they wanted to read the quest notes and NPC dialogue that we all had memorized. They wanted to look in places that we knew there was nothing there. They did the wrong thing, died or sometimes caused party wipes. But they were in our group - we weren't just going to say "pike and we'll finish the quest" and make them feel useless.

Unfortunately you are unlikely to find what you are looking for in PUGs. A couple of people made good points: add like-minded people to your friends list and / or look for a like-minded guild or static group. You might want to make a character on each server and spend some time in chat or on the server forums. Good luck :)

[DakFrost]

Serious question: Let's say you join a club of people who like to get together and see sights. One time they are looking at architecture, another time they are looking at art, etc. Different people will be there depending on their interest. Do you think it is right for most of the people to leave 1 or 2 people behind? You all decided to do this as a group - isn't it impolite to just walk as fast as you want ignoring someone who might be looking at stuff a little longer than others? Certainly if someone is taking an extraordinary longer time you might talk to that person and ask if they are having difficulties of some kind or whatever, but you don't just leave them. That's what a group does - adjust to accommodate everyone.

Etiquette is becoming a thing of the past because people are so used to not considering others online.

It all depends on what the club was created for. If it's advertised as a seniors walking tour, then one should expect to be moving at a crawl, however, if you're a senior who joins a jogging club don't complain when the joggers leave you and your walking cane behind.

[HAL]

It all depends on what the club was created for. If it's advertised as a seniors walking tour, then one should expect to be moving at a crawl, however, if you're a senior who joins a jogging club don't complain when the joggers leave you and your walking cane behind.

We're not talking about a sport.

[BigErkyKid]

I just don't see it as that complicated.

If you create the LFM you can set reasonable guidelines regarding the pace.

If others do as you have asked, great. If not the only response available is to kick after the quest and add to your /ignore list.

If you join a LFM that is unlabeled than you really have no room to complain about the style of play other than the basic few no-no's I listed above.

.

As I mentioned, the problem exists when rookies want to group but the majority of people are zerging.

Their options are:

a) Post a no zerg group and get very few people (if any)
b) Solo
c) Accept the way most people play and just adjust

The majority of rookies I know go for c) but they aren't totally pleased since it is a compromise on their end.

To tell them to solo or basically accept very few joiners (no zerg group) is a no go for a lot of people that start in the game and are attracted by the social aspect. Playing with vets is extremely frustrating for rookies, as evidenced by the many threads that spawn in the forums.

I have yet to see a game with a good solution. A lot rely on having filtering options to keep rookies with rookies until they feel ready to jump in the shark pool. But that of course relies on having a steady influx of new players, which DDO does not have.

It is sort of a problem without solution, it is all I am pointing out.

[Oxarhamar]

It shouldn't matter why it takes him so long. If it's not your group...you should wait. If you don't want to wait...drop and form your own group.

I probably would just leave the group if they were taking so long to get things together.

Still why post a LFM if your not going to be ready to start questing in some reasonable amount of time yourself?

How long do you expect players joining to wait around?

[Oxarhamar]

As I mentioned, the problem exists when rookies want to group but the majority of people are zerging.

Their options are:

a) Post a no zerg group and get very few people (if any)
b) Solo
c) Accept the way most people play and just adjust

The majority of rookies I know go for c) but they aren't totally pleased since it is a compromise on their end.

To tell them to solo or basically accept very few joiners (no zerg group) is a no go for a lot of people that start in the game and are attracted by the social aspect. Playing with vets is extremely frustrating for rookies, as evidenced by the many threads that spawn in the forums.

I have yet to see a game with a good solution. A lot rely on having filtering options to keep rookies with rookies until they feel ready to jump in the shark pool. But that of course relies on having a steady influx of new players, which DDO does not have.

It is sort of a problem without solution, it is all I am pointing out.

Most reasonable solution has already been discussed.

Speak up.

Say your new and Vets are much more likely to accommodate you, show you how to get to a quest, who to talk to to pick up the chain, wait for you in the explorer so your not lost.

Sure probably still run into those who won't but, letting other players know that: you don't know it as well as them or its your first time etc... Is really your only chance otherwise players will likely just assume you know it and leave you in the dust.


We still ask players If they know the way places, run to under dark in fines forest, how to get to quests in wheloon, GH, 3BC, Stormhorns, and are willing to show the way if asked. Still some players just don't speak up.

[Sam1313]

:)

[Wipey]

Get Stormhorns or Underdark portals, or flagging, or Gh teleports or selling / buying or ship buffs sorted before you click the lfm.

I'd never wait unless explicitly asked, not for buffs, not with chests ( if it's not my group I'd rather skip the chest than wait ), not for ransack or kills. It's complete waste of time.

If you take your sweet time getting to every quest, join only when we are 4/5 done or make everybody wait with completion because you joined ee byoh and don't even know the way and just die to first trash mob we left behind, you are not gonna make people too happy.
Or just pike at the start then run god knows where and ding, plus red skull for good measure.
This happened many times.

Noone has problem showing ways or paying more buffing or hjealing attention to a newbie but "permanent - 10% piker" is eventually gonna make even the most patient person mad. Or reform around quietly.

Do not make people wait, respect their time. Like get to quest/raid entrance NOW.
I am not gonna ruin a newbie Waterworks pug, so please show the same courtesy and keep up, or at least make an effort.

[walkin_dude]

I love zerg and see how fast I can do a quest. It's the only challenge that ddo can offer as it is now (sadly).

Quite often people rage quit because I go too fast, but nobody forced them to join my pug.

If I join other people pug, I try to help newbie if they ask. If they don't say a word is kind of difficult helping them out.

They're probably too used to being blasted or dropped from the group if they do say anything.

[walkin_dude]

It all depends on what the club was created for. If it's advertised as a seniors walking tour, then one should expect to be moving at a crawl, however, if you're a senior who joins a jogging club don't complain when the joggers leave you and your walking cane behind.

Seems from the post you responded to that it was a sight-seeing club.

[DakFrost]

Seems from the post you responded to that it was a sight-seeing club.

The point is, if you don't like how other people play, then start your own LFM and stop complaining about how other people play.

DDO is an 8 year old game that is mostly populated by long term players. Things are going to move pretty fast, if you're new or simply have a lot of time to waste in quests that others have run dozens of times (if not hundreds) you need to get use to creating your own LFM with some disclaimers in the description.

The sight-seeing club is touring a town most people have seen hundreds of times. You're going to find that most people on the tour are just there for the lunch and a pint and want to get them as quickly as possible.

[deuxanes]

Dunno. Is it really "we've done the quests too many times"?

I don't only play DDO but other games as well. Most times I try to delay reaching the end as long as possible. In DDO terms this would equate to "do all optionals with some flower sniffing". Or I randomly determine a starting position and try to make it through a game. To me this is more entertaining and challenging than simply moving a difficulty slider which only inflates NPC/monster stats. This applies especially for games I have already played. I have a couple of favourite games which I still replay and the least thing I do is rush through them. Sometimes I replay them in the same way as before. Sometimes I try an alternative route.

I may not always play a game in the sense a dev intended it. But I don't see a point in rushing through it. If I get the feeling of "know that, seen that, been there" then I play something else or endulge in some other pastime activities.


Regarding static content?

Other computer games have as well "static content". Certain simulation games (e.g. Civilization) offer a random map generator. This doesn't change the gameplay but each game will be a little bit different. If you start a new game then you start a new game from scratch. Your knowledge of the game mechanics would still help, though. But you start from scratch each time you start a new game.

Turbine tried introducing some random elements in quests (e.g. semi randomizing traps, Amrath quests) but it still wasn't that much apreciated.


Game Difficulty?

In hindsight maybe the reincarnation thing as implemented in DDO isn't really that good. Nor the guild buffs. It's true, it keeps players busy. Provides them with some goals. But at what costs?

I don't see the content being adjusted that frequently to pose a challenge with current power levels. There is already such a huge gap between a newly created character and a TRed character which belongs to a high level guild. This in addition to the potentially huge build options makes balancing the game's difficulty rather impossible.

OK, there are lots of players on all level ranges, but to be honest it's not always fun to join a group. Not just because of different personalities, but also because not everyone is able to contribute on an equal footing.

[bsquishwizzy]

The point is, if you don't like how other people play, then start your own LFM and stop complaining about how other people play.

And when people jump into a quest whose comments SPECIFICALLY say “no zerging”,” and they zerg, what’s your advice then (besides squelch)?

And yeah, I’ve seen that happen.

[DakFrost]

And when people jump into a quest whose comments SPECIFICALLY say “no zerging”,” and they zerg, what’s your advice then (besides squelch)?

And yeah, I’ve seen that happen.

There are only two options. Complete the quest and remove the offender, or drop group and reform. There are going to be ignorant people no matter what you do, it goes both ways.

In my LFM I always put "Elite - IP" and yet I still get plenty of people who join and then say something like, "I just need to buff and sell." or "How do I find the quest?", to which I usually respond "Almost done here, you can jump in on the next quest."

[Annex]

Greetings to all,

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers and enjoy exploring the dungeons and other environments rather than rushing through them? I've joined adventuring groups only to find myself left far behind when I stop for a moment to marvel at something, drink a potion, or even pick up a treasure. Is this the mode that most player groups engage in?

If you are on Khyber and would like to group, please feel free to send me a message through these forums. After about 4 months of play my first character finally hit level 20, but I still take the time to fully explore dungeons and have yet to visit quite a few. I am Premium but own 19 quest packs and both expansions. :)

[walkin_dude]

The point is, if you don't like how other people play, then start your own LFM and stop complaining about how other people play.

DDO is an 8 year old game that is mostly populated by long term players. Things are going to move pretty fast, if you're new or simply have a lot of time to waste in quests that others have run dozens of times (if not hundreds) you need to get use to creating your own LFM with some disclaimers in the description.

The sight-seeing club is touring a town most people have seen hundreds of times. You're going to find that most people on the tour are just there for the lunch and a pint and want to get them as quickly as possible.

Well, there are always plenty of excuses for bad behavior. I tell my kids that from time to time. We can make excuses for acting poorly, or we can recognize them for what they are and try to do better.

What it basically boils down to is selfishness. And, quite honestly, if another player is so selfish as to be completely incapable of socializing like a normal person, then I guess I'd prefer to know it so I can avoid that person.

It's just sad, that's all...

edit: on Khyber, the only toon I play goes by the name Ghrae.

[intruder1]

There ARE Classic Playstyles here.

[phillymiket]

Serious question: Let's say you join a club of people who like to get together and see sights. One time they are looking at architecture, another time they are looking at art, etc. Different people will be there depending on their interest. Do you think it is right for most of the people to leave 1 or 2 people behind? You all decided to do this as a group - isn't it impolite to just walk as fast as you want ignoring someone who might be looking at stuff a little longer than others? Certainly if someone is taking an extraordinary longer time you might talk to that person and ask if they are having difficulties of some kind or whatever, but you don't just leave them. That's what a group does - adjust to accommodate everyone.

Etiquette is becoming a thing of the past because people are so used to not considering others online.

In this analogy is the Tour Guide the equivalent of the Pick-Up Group Party Leader?

If so, then the bus leaves at 4:30 - make sure you are there.
In other words, you actually don't have the luxury in a tour group (the equivalent of a PuG) of setting your own pace because there are others besides you in the group and there is a schedule to keep.
It would actually be rude for the individual in a Tour Group to linger when everyone else wants to go.
Wouldn't it?
(with certain exceptions, wheelchairs, yatta yatta bla bla bla)

If, in this analogy, it's not a Tour Group but instead a group of friends than of course you wait!
But a group of friends is more like a Static Group or a Guild Run where the people are pre-filtered to mostly include people with the same tastes and pace.

When strangers get together the pace of the majority usually is mirrored by all.


<CLIP>It is sort of a problem without solution, it is all I am pointing out.

Yeah, I totally agree with you :-)

Listen, I'm a "go back and help" guy.
I run new players back up the mountain to get their chest in Tempest Spine when they get blown off.
I'll patiently explain a puzzle to people.
I'll run back to help with re-spawn for party add-ons in an IP.
If someone dies I go back to rez them and say "hehe NP" when they say "srry :-( thx"

That's how I roll.

But on the other hand, I don't feel like it's my place to tell others they need to do the same (fill in the exceptions to that yatta yatta bla bla bla).

To me, it's all about the Good Feels.
If everyone is polite and full of Good Feels then I'm happy regardless of play-style.
I prefer to run fast but a slow group is fun too as long as they have Good Feels.

If someone is all like "dude LTP and catch up" or on the flip-side if someones all like "STPO ZERGING YOU ZERGERS!!" or whatever than it harshes on my mellow.

There is the game you want and the game that is.

"Play in the MMORPG that exists but in the manner of the MMORPG you want to exist - and let others do the same." (Mahatma Gandhi, Forging Alliances in On-Line Gaming 1939 (West Bengal: University of Calcutta Press, 1944), 33.)

[Knobull]

Because they are the most flucking awesome thing in the history of awesomeness?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEuOoMprDqg

Oh, wrong Rush. Sorry. :D

But yeah, I'm a "flower sniffer" too. Hard to find a good flower sniffing partner or two. Had a few DDO buddies who run at my pace over the years, but they come and go.

[Powskier]

most players will have experienced these dungeons 10, 20, maybe a hundred times - how would you play them through in that case?

oh lord we need random monster placement and spawns

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Well, there are always plenty of excuses for bad behavior. I tell my kids that from time to time. We can make excuses for acting poorly, or we can recognize them for what they are and try to do better.

What it basically boils down to is selfishness. And, quite honestly, if another player is so selfish as to be completely incapable of socializing like a normal person, then I guess I'd prefer to know it so I can avoid that person.

It's just sad, that's all...

edit: on Khyber, the only toon I play goes by the name Ghrae.



Why is it every time I go to give someone rep, I get the annoying "must spread some around" message. ;)

[Monkey-Boy]

oh lord we need random monster placement and spawns

While I think that's a good idea I'm not sure it would matter.

[BigErkyKid]

While I think that's a good idea I'm not sure it would matter.

At the level that DDO is providing it, unfortunately it won't matter.

Who things that the runes in VON3 are a fun mechanic?

Accepting that DDO has a very limited set of options regarding what's possible they need to do a better job keeping the game entertaining.

[AzB]

We need randomized dungeons. The more randomization the better, but at least monsters and placement of monsters.

But it's not just the "we've run it a million times" thing going on. Anytime new content comes out, join a pug and watch everyone faceroll it for the first time. It's called a habit. You get in the habit of constantly running through stuff at high speed (video game mode) and forget that this video game is based on a RPG. I don't know how many vets I've seen that have never done House of Rusted Blades the long way. It's not a case of "I've memorized it, I'm bored" when people have never done anything but the extreme shortcut. Or the vets that don't know about the secret chest in Von 4. I only found it one day when I was soloing it and fell in the pit by accident.

I play for fun and not for xp/min. I don't really care if someone is new and doesn't know the quest or even the way to the quest. I'll slow down for them. If I'm not in the mood to do that and just want to run some stuff quick to get a level or something, I'll solo or look for some guildies who are on the TR train. There's absolutely no point in inviting anyone to join your group and then leaving them behind in the dust as you solo the quest and they never make it to the start or get lost somewhere in the quest.

A great analogy is people that drive as fast as possible even when there's no reason to hurry. We all know people like that, maybe it's even us, but the habit of hurrying has been ingrained and they simply can't help themselves anymore and they certainly don't even see it in themselves.

But yeah, even randomization won't help as much as people think. It's about habits and attitude.

[bsquishwizzy]

There are only two options. Complete the quest and remove the offender, or drop group and reform. There are going to be ignorant people no matter what you do, it goes both ways.

In my LFM I always put "Elite - IP" and yet I still get plenty of people who join and then say something like, "I just need to buff and sell." or "How do I find the quest?", to which I usually respond "Almost done here, you can jump in on the next quest."

And thee is there is the problem (and one that I highlighted in an earlier post): did you specifically include the word "zerg"?

A guy jumps on the quest thinking that you're probably going to be 15 mins in the quest, of which 1 min to repair / sell / buff is basically nothing. However, in a zerg, 1 min may be half of the quest.

Part of the problem is that LFMs are precious few these days. So people hop in when they see something that they want to run, and meets their criteria.

[Saekee]

Some enhancements encourage zerging. For example, the Druid's fatal harrier is on a timer, so if one wants to keep it up, he or she rushes into the next encounter. Someone's displacement clickie is short-lived so they want the best of it. Perhaps someone's haste boosting is limited and they figure to use it efficiently by running into the next room. The timer-thing occurs notably in epics with LD. It is all in the name of efficiency, and veteran skills take good advantage of this.

On a personal note, I love it when I join a group and they are zerging ahead (so long as they don't die). Saves me trouble...I even feed the wolves by tossing them a compliment...

I also like taking on new players and taking time to go through it, vicariously experiencing newness through them. That is how the game is at its best for me. I find newness in flavor builds with unusual tactics, too. If I sense or learn that a player is new, I will go out of my way to make sure they are enjoying themselves. Don't want to ruin it for them.

[DakFrost]

And thee is there is the problem (and one that I highlighted in an earlier post): did you specifically include the word "zerg"?

A guy jumps on the quest thinking that you're probably going to be 15 mins in the quest, of which 1 min to repair / sell / buff is basically nothing. However, in a zerg, 1 min may be half of the quest.

Part of the problem is that LFMs are precious few these days. So people hop in when they see something that they want to run, and meets their criteria.

What does "Zerg" have to do with it? I labelled it as "IP" which means In Progress, meaning I am currently progressing through the quest, so if you want to join me you should be prepared to jump in. This means I may be near the end, and if you still need a few minuets to get yourself ready, use the potty, update your facebook, and whatever else, then you're going to miss completion.

[Oxarhamar]

And thee is there is the problem (and one that I highlighted in an earlier post): did you specifically include the word "zerg"?

A guy jumps on the quest thinking that you're probably going to be 15 mins in the quest, of which 1 min to repair / sell / buff is basically nothing. However, in a zerg, 1 min may be half of the quest.

Part of the problem is that LFMs are precious few these days. So people hop in when they see something that they want to run, and meets their criteria.

When joining an IP quest it's always best to head directly to the quest with the least delay. The quest has started why would a joiner think it's ok to delay? That ridiculous.

IP means In Progress.

If you join while they are in proggress you can wager they are not going to wait for you to finish if you take your sweet time getting there.

[Lonnbeimnech]

When joining an IP quest it's always best to head directly to the quest with the least delay. The quest has started why would a joiner think it's ok to delay? That ridiculous.

IP means In Progress.

If you join while they are in proggress you can wager they are not going to wait for you to finish if you take your sweet time getting there.

Though some particularly nice people will hold off completion for a little while under certain circumstances. Such as chains like lord of dust, where you can't redbox, or quests that take a while to get to, like a break in the ice.

[DakFrost]

Though some particularly nice people will hold off completion for a little while under certain circumstances. Such as chains like lord of dust, where you can't redbox, or quests that take a while to get to, like a break in the ice.

That is completely reasonable. I don't have an issue with waiting for people to run through an explorer area or something else of that nature.

It basically boils down to using proper descriptors in an LFM and then reading those comments before joining.

[bsquishwizzy]

We need randomized dungeons. The more randomization the better, but at least monsters and placement of monsters.

But it's not just the "we've run it a million times" thing going on. Anytime new content comes out, join a pug and watch everyone faceroll it for the first time. It's called a habit. You get in the habit of constantly running through stuff at high speed (video game mode) and forget that this video game is based on a RPG. I don't know how many vets I've seen that have never done House of Rusted Blades the long way. It's not a case of "I've memorized it, I'm bored" when people have never done anything but the extreme shortcut. Or the vets that don't know about the secret chest in Von 4. I only found it one day when I was soloing it and fell in the pit by accident.

I play for fun and not for xp/min. I don't really care if someone is new and doesn't know the quest or even the way to the quest. I'll slow down for them. If I'm not in the mood to do that and just want to run some stuff quick to get a level or something, I'll solo or look for some guildies who are on the TR train. There's absolutely no point in inviting anyone to join your group and then leaving them behind in the dust as you solo the quest and they never make it to the start or get lost somewhere in the quest.

A great analogy is people that drive as fast as possible even when there's no reason to hurry. We all know people like that, maybe it's even us, but the habit of hurrying has been ingrained and they simply can't help themselves anymore and they certainly don't even see it in themselves.

But yeah, even randomization won't help as much as people think. It's about habits and attitude.

First, I made a suggestion for how they could go about a random dungeon scheme. They have about 75% of what they need already in the game. The King’s Forest rares are a good example of the start of the concept. They just need to flesh it out a bit more with a semi-cohesive, randomized storyline, randomized objectives, and a random boss / completion.

Second. It isn’t really randomization that’s the problem here. The problem is that people get in a pattern based on their likes and dislikes. Some people will run the same frickin’ content over-and-over for the “great XP” – which I cannot personally stand. It’s good, quick XP to get to the next level, and that’s all they want.

I’d just about kill to get a decent at-level heroic Chronoscope raid together. Honestly. Bit no one wants to run those anymore.

I’m finding that as I level with a couple of people who are going for completionist, that there is MORE than enough XP and content out there to do a once-and-done (elite) on a quest chain. The problem we have is that there are some people in our group who want to level quickly, and others (like me) who are SICK TO FRICKIN’ DEATH of running the same quests every life. We don’t even need to run every quest out there, so a bunch of stuff gets skipped every life.

There is a bit of compromise, but still, it causes tensions.

So this is as much a problem with player focus and desire as anything else.

[bsquishwizzy]

What does "Zerg" have to do with it? I labelled it as "IP" which means In Progress, meaning I am currently progressing through the quest, so if you want to join me you should be prepared to jump in. This means I may be near the end, and if you still need a few minuets to get yourself ready, use the potty, update your facebook, and whatever else, then you're going to miss completion.


When joining an IP quest it's always best to head directly to the quest with the least delay. The quest has started why would a joiner think it's ok to delay? That ridiculous.

IP means In Progress.

If you join while they are in proggress you can wager they are not going to wait for you to finish if you take your sweet time getting there.

Look, if you guys don’t like having to accommodate other players, then why post an LFM in the first place? What is considered an acceptable delay is pretty frickin’ relative. And that window gets more narrow the further you progress in the quest.

You know, you’re just as bad with your habits and expectations as the people you’re blaming. Someone jumping in to your party and deciding to paint their toenails for the next 10 minutes before they enter the quest is one thing, but getting all huffy about someone refreshing their buffs and unloading inventory (which takes all of 1 minute) is entirely another.

What next? You going to get in a tizzy about people not standing right outside the quest entrance when they hit your LFM? Because the whole 15-seconds-or-so to go from the Airship portal to the Lords of Dust entrance is impacting on your funtime?

Or, heaven forbid, they get stuck in a loading screen. The horror!!!

Likewise, in the original example cited, Dak DID NOT state that the quest was/is a zerg. So that leaves the interpretation of what the person hitting the LFM assumes is the appropriate timeframe he / she has to get to the quest. You want people ready to go? Place “zerg” in the comments somewhere. Then you have a right to complain.

I’m beginning to believe that maybe you guys just shouldn’t post LFMs. If this is such a problem that it causes to much consternation on your part, then just don’t do it anymore. And you’ll be far less distraught over someone wanting to make sure they have an empty backpack before they jump in.

[DakFrost]

Look, if you guys don’t like having to accommodate other players, then why post an LFM in the first place? What is considered an acceptable delay is pretty frickin’ relative. And that window gets more narrow the further you progress in the quest.

You know, you’re just as bad with your habits and expectations as the people you’re blaming. Someone jumping in to your party and deciding to paint their toenails for the next 10 minutes before they enter the quest is one thing, but getting all huffy about someone refreshing their buffs and unloading inventory (which takes all of 1 minute) is entirely another.

What next? You going to get in a tizzy about people not standing right outside the quest entrance when they hit your LFM? Because the whole 15-seconds-or-so to go from the Airship portal to the Lords of Dust entrance is impacting on your funtime?

Or, heaven forbid, they get stuck in a loading screen. The horror!!!

Likewise, in the original example cited, Dak DID NOT state that the quest was/is a zerg. So that leaves the interpretation of what the person hitting the LFM assumes is the appropriate timeframe he / she has to get to the quest. You want people ready to go? Place “zerg” in the comments somewhere. Then you have a right to complain.

I’m beginning to believe that maybe you guys just shouldn’t post LFMs. If this is such a problem that it causes to much consternation on your part, then just don’t do it anymore. And you’ll be far less distraught over someone wanting to make sure they have an empty backpack before they jump in.

Firstly - It is about REASONABLE accommodation. When you join the LFM and you are on your boat, grabbing your buffs and ready to teleport to the appropriate zone? Great! When you join the LFM are you currently PvPing and want to repair, check your mail, check the AH, run to your ship, visit the bank? Not Great.

Secondly - Once again, "Zerg" and "IP" are not synonymous. "IP" means In Progress. I may be flower sniffing the entire quest but I may also be only a minuet from completion. I use "IP" with the understanding that anyone who joins will try to hurry to enter the quest because it could finish soon.

I am beginning to believe that there is a serious reading comprehension fail going on, both on the forums and in game. I may need to start a new thread explaining what the term "IP" means because obviously there are people who don't, then join quests that they probably should avoid.

[Scrabbler]

Look, if you guys don’t like having to accommodate other players, then why post an LFM in the first place?
Because they are generously offering to help other people get a completion on the quest, for much less time and effort than it would usually take.


Likewise, in the original example cited, Dak DID NOT state that the quest was/is a zerg. So that leaves the interpretation of what the person hitting the LFM assumes is the appropriate timeframe he / she has to get to the quest.
Whenever someone suggests performing an activity without specifying the completion time / speed, the correct assumption is "as soon as reasonably possible". That doesn't just apply to this game, or to video games, but to nearly everything including restaurant orders, classified ads, and school homework.

If there's someone whose objective is not to complete the assignment, but instead create the fake impression that all of the group is working on it together, then it's his responsibility to describe that unusual condition in the LFM.

The real cause of the complaint here is that the LFM software doesn't resolve the ambiguity between "get credit for the quest" and "be there for the actions that cause the quest to get done". And the underlying cause of that is that the devs mistakenly allowed too much variation in power between same-level characters and too little between groups of different sizes.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Because they are generously offering to help other people get a completion on the quest, for much less time and effort than it would usually take.


Whenever someone suggests performing an activity without specifying the completion time / speed, the correct assumption is "as soon as reasonably possible". That doesn't just apply to this game, or to video games, but to nearly everything including restaurant orders, classified ads, and school homework.

If there's someone whose objective is not to complete the assignment, but instead create the fake impression that all of the group is working on it together, then it's his responsibility to describe that unusual condition in the LFM.

The real cause of the complaint here is that the LFM software doesn't resolve the ambiguity between "get credit for the quest" and "be there for the actions that cause the quest to get done". And the underlying cause of that is that the devs mistakenly allowed too much variation in power between same-level characters and too little between groups of different sizes.
How would you even design an lfm to allow for 1.the kind of guy that joins a group to finish a quest, and 2. a guy that joins a group because he wants to go make a sandwich, do his laundry, check his mail, update his facebook, have a shower, pop down to the store, pick up his kids from soccer practice, go watch a movie and then complain that the party finished without him.

[Ancient]

I’m beginning to believe that maybe you guys just shouldn’t post LFMs.

No shortage of people who want to tell others how to play the game.

[bsquishwizzy]

Firstly - It is about REASONABLE accommodation. When you join the LFM and you are on your boat, grabbing your buffs and ready to teleport to the appropriate zone? Great! When you join the LFM are you currently PvPing and want to repair, check your mail, check the AH, run to your ship, visit the bank? Not Great.


Whenever someone suggests performing an activity without specifying the completion time / speed, the correct assumption is "as soon as reasonably possible". That doesn't just apply to this game, or to video games, but to nearly everything including restaurant orders, classified ads, and school homework.

The word “reasonable” is about as hotly contested word as you’ll get: “reasonable doubt,” “reasonable search and seizure.” That’s because what is reasonable to you is unreasonable to other people, and vice versa.

Obviously, you assume that everyone thinks and acts like you. Here’s a hot tip: they don’t.

This is some pretty basic stuff.


Secondly - Once again, "Zerg" and "IP" are not synonymous. "IP" means In Progress. I may be flower sniffing the entire quest but I may also be only a minuet from completion. I use "IP" with the understanding that anyone who joins will try to hurry to enter the quest because it could finish soon.

You show me some Webster’s dictionary-type reference where the term “In progress” means “hurry along.” It means simply that you have started a quest, are in the middle of it, and so on. It does not define ANYTHING other than what I have described.

Words mean things. However, they do not carry an unwritten meaning that you’ve decided they should carry. You’ve created this unwritten rule that says that IP means “you’d better get here quick.” Most normal people define that as “I am actively running the quest,” and nothing more. Because THAT’S WHAT THE WORDS “IN PROGRESS”MEAN. Period. Nothing more, nothing less.

A person looking at an LFM will (or at least should make the attempt to) judge how far you are in based on the amount of time your quest is in progress. However, they will have no idea where you are in the quest unless you say “zerg” or “no zerg” to specify the speed at which you are running, so as to provide context. People sometimes run quests for thirty minutes or longer, whereas you may only take 5 minutes to do them. Not every runs at your speed. But giving them a hint as to the speed you’re running tells them outright what they should expect. That’s the reason why we have words and stuff: because grunts and hand-signals are not as accurate.


I am beginning to believe that there is a serious reading comprehension fail going on, both on the forums and in game. I may need to start a new thread explaining what the term "IP" means because obviously there are people who don't, then join quests that they probably should avoid.

Or…maybe you can qualify your LFM with something other than “Elite – IP,” which can mean a broad range of things.

This isn’t reading comprehension. This is you making assumptions. And if you are going to do that, then you probably shouldn’t be posting LFMs, because given your vague descriptions, you’re going to get a lot of people that don’t run by your rules.

Again , words mean things. You want to avoid these problems in the future, be more specific. Then you’ll have a reason to gripe.


Because they are generously offering to help other people get a completion on the quest, for much less time and effort than it would usually take.

If you don’t deal with people well, or are unwilling to make some accommodations or are inflexible to the needs of the people who join your party, then you shouldn’t be putting up an LFM. Period.

Anyone who has worked retail for even a few months can figure this out on their own. You get snotty with a customer – no matter how good your product is – odds are they’ll buy from someone else.

And you’re not being generous if you’re being an obnoxious jerk. Sorry. You’re just being an obnoxious jerk who is taking people along for “free XP” because you get some gratification from being an obnoxious jerk to people. That’s how most obnoxious jerks operate.

(This is not saying that I’m referencing any specific person in this debate, but a comment about obnoxious jerks in general…and there are a lot of them in the world).
.

The real cause of the complaint here is that the LFM software doesn't resolve the ambiguity between "get credit for the quest" and "be there for the actions that cause the quest to get done". And the underlying cause of that is that the devs mistakenly allowed too much variation in power between same-level characters and too little between groups of different sizes.

Hence the reason to be specific in your LFM. I learned this a while ago. I find it odd that people who have been playing this game as long - if not longer – than me cannot figure this out.

[Oxarhamar]

Firstly - It is about REASONABLE accommodation. When you join the LFM and you are on your boat, grabbing your buffs and ready to teleport to the appropriate zone? Great! When you join the LFM are you currently PvPing and want to repair, check your mail, check the AH, run to your ship, visit the bank? Not Great.

Secondly - Once again, "Zerg" and "IP" are not synonymous. "IP" means In Progress. I may be flower sniffing the entire quest but I may also be only a minuet from completion. I use "IP" with the understanding that anyone who joins will try to hurry to enter the quest because it could finish soon.

I am beginning to believe that there is a serious reading comprehension fail going on, both on the forums and in game. I may need to start a new thread explaining what the term "IP" means because obviously there are people who don't, then join quests that they probably should avoid.

This.

We do post LFMs and we do IP. In fact I might start a quest while my static Partner goes to level up or visa versa and we do not have a problem with waiting for some to finish who is actually making there way to the quest with no nonsence, yes selling and repairing takes seconds in theory but, if your showing up and the IP quest has completed well yeah who's to blame.

I don't have a problem with players going to the bank, leveling up, selling repairing... But, don't expect me to wait up for you while you do so. In turn I do not expect anyone to wait for me while I go do things like this, I know inventors fill up or scrolls get consumed mid questing. But, if I go to pick up some more scrolls or dump my vender trash when I get back I expect the quest to be underway.if it takes me the duration of the quest to return and I miss the completion well yeah maybe, I should have been faster

only quests we really might wait for everyone to begin are the quests like Rusted Blades or Impossible Demands which are completed under a minute. That or maybe raids but, if its Deathwyrm know that we will be IP generously clearing all the light puzzles so late joiners can step in and advance to the end /win.

If someone don't like this type of playstyle? Guess what maybe they need to think about that before they join IP LFMs because, that's one of the situations they might get.

[DakFrost]

No shortage of people who want to tell others how to play the game.

Exactly. People have the choice to join/not join LFMs. My LFMs are "Elite - IP", and those that don't understand what that means have the freedom not to join.

It still surprises me how many people want you to run an LFM they way they like. I can't figure out why they don't start their own.

[bsquishwizzy]

Exactly. People have the choice to join/not join LFMs. My LFMs are "Elite - IP", and those that don't understand what that means have the freedom not to join.

It still surprises me how many people want you to run an LFM they way they like. I can't figure out why they don't start their own.


Yeah.

You're virtually writing War and Peace in your LFM descriptions. I can see how people have 'reading comprehension" problems...

[phillymiket]

Firstly - It is about REASONABLE accommodation.

You are right.

If I join a IP quest, chances are, the ship teleport is the fastest way for me to get there.

If I pop into the ship tavern and quick-like sell and repair then hit the big refresh all buffs gear (the greatest guild ship addition ever btw) and head straight to the quest it's fast.

So fast, in fact, that I won't even tell you I'm doing it and you'll never even know. That's how fast it is.

By definition we are talking out people who take considerable amounts of time doing who knows what.

[Powskier]

Exactly. People have the choice to join/not join LFMs.
It still surprises me how many people want you to run an LFM they way they like. I can't figure out why they don't start their own.

it could be double edge sword....posting lfms for norm /hard don't fill and elite ones get zergers by masses. Newbs should be encouraged to post learning run ,or smthing like that....maybe a Different Colored LFM box for 1st timer ,postin the lfm? different color code could work...like red lfm is-''anything goes,zergarama" ; and green lfm - for helpfull types and newbs

[Oxarhamar]

You are right.

If I join a IP quest, chances are, the ship teleport to the fastest way for me to get there.

If I pop into the ship tavern and quick-like sell and repair then hit the big refresh all buffs gear (the greatest guild ship addition ever btw) and head straight to the quest it's fast.

So fast, in fact, that I won't even tell you I'm doing it and you'll never even know. That's how fast it is.

By definition we are talking out people who take considerable amounts of time doing who knows what.

Yes

Then expect you to wait for them.

If they are new or new to the pack fine that's entirely different but, speak up I can't help if you say nothing.

[DakFrost]

Obviously, you assume that everyone thinks and acts like you. Here’s a hot tip: they don’t.


SNIP

Obviously you are one of the people who don't understand what "IP" implies. You should avoid joining any LFMs with that description to avoid causing yourself duress.

I will continue running LFMs the way I like, which means "Elite - IP". Feel free to take your time, you can join the next quest.

[phillymiket]

i.posting lfms for norm /hard don't fill

Why is that?

I think it's because a large number of new players want an EZ quest. (Elite Zerg quest).

They want to run behind vets and watch them crush and get some lootz and ExPees and all.

So it's questionable whether slowing down for the new player in the back is even what that player wants.

Many just want EZ mode which is fine by me.

It's so hard to know what people want, there are so many levels of play and so much variation with those groups that I say, why bother?

Post you LFM - label it as best you can - take whoever clicks - play your game - play nice - don't worry about the other stuff.

If you do something that bothers people say "sorry" and politely leave for another group.

Easy, easy.

[Powskier]

this one was initially about the zergy fast pace of dungeons...how do ya'll get so derailed ? It is not about what players do on the way there...
...it got lost quick in the ''post your own lfm '' comments,if you dont like the way ''we'' are running them,krap. Zergers live in their own little world ,don't they.

[phillymiket]

this one was initially about the zergy fast pace of dungeons...how do ya'll get so derailed ? It is not about what players do on the way there...
...it got lost quick in the ''post your own lfm '' comments,if you dont like the way ''we'' are running them,krap. Zergers live in their own little world ,don't they.

Wait we aren't talking about Neville Chamberlain?

+1 for the re-railng (and also to make up for a snide comment i made toward you last week. ah, sorry)

(edit in 24 hours that is)

[Powskier]

Why is that?

I think it's because a large number of new players want an EZ quest. (Elite Zerg quest).

They want to run behind vets and watch them crush and get some lootz and ExPees and all.

So it's questionable whether slowing down for the new player in the back is even what that player wants.

Many just want EZ mode which is fine by me.

It's so hard to know what people want, there are so many levels of play and so much variation with those groups that I say, why bother?

Post you LFM - label it as best you can - take whoever clicks - play your game - play nice - don't worry about the other stuff.

If you do something that bothers people say "sorry" and politely leave for another group.

Easy, easy.

i think the OP is just in look and learn mode,and prob has buddies pullin him thru quests at fast pace?Sounded like he knew from post1 it won't change,but maybe there are players he/she could find, not quite so speedy. I'm pretty quick,but I'll leave the super fast groups-I dont wanna feel like i'm rushing along-more casual groups think I'm zergy:);it's a revolving blade of relativity

[bsquishwizzy]

SNIP

Obviously you are one of the people who don't understand what "IP" implies. You should avoid joining any LFMs with that description to avoid causing yourself duress.



Well, if someone would have sent me the Uber-Players decoder ruing, I'd probably be "in the know."

The fact that you used the word "implies" means that you've basically lost the argument. Words are meant to convey what you mean. Not what you want to have someone think you actually mean without having to say it directly. That's kinda stuff is left for high school dating rituals, and the singles bar scene.

Tell me, do you use you mad clairvoyance skillz to train monkeys or something? 'Cause I'd pay to see that.

[Oxarhamar]

Well, if someone would have sent me the Uber-Players decoder ruing, I'd probably be "in the know."

The fact that you used the word "implies" means that you've basically lost the argument. Words are meant to convey what you mean. Not what you want to have someone think you actually mean without having to say it directly. That's kinda stuff is left for high school dating rituals, and the singles bar scene.

Tell me, do you use you mad clairvoyance skillz to train monkeys or something? 'Cause I'd pay to see that.

When you add words to feather into sent angels and phrases in a relivent context IMPLY is exactly what they do.

[bsquishwizzy]

When you add words to feather into sent angels and phrases in a relivent context IMPLY is exactly what they do.

That's either a very cunning joke, or a sad commentary on public edumacation...

[Oxarhamar]

That's either a very cunning joke, or a sad commentary on public edumacation...

Let's try a more direct definition (hopefully without the assistance of the never correct auto correct feature.

Imply verb.
(of a fact or occurrence) suggest (something) as a logical consequence.

[DakFrost]

Well, if someone would have sent me the Uber-Players decoder ruing, I'd probably be "in the know."

The fact that you used the word "implies" means that you've basically lost the argument. Words are meant to convey what you mean. Not what you want to have someone think you actually mean without having to say it directly. That's kinda stuff is left for high school dating rituals, and the singles bar scene.

Tell me, do you use you mad clairvoyance skillz to train monkeys or something? 'Cause I'd pay to see that.

If you can't deduce that "IP" means the quest could end soon, then I can't help you.

Although I'm fairly sure a well trained monkey could figure it out.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Apparently, IP = I'll be at the end fight in 30 seconds.

[General_Gronker]

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers Nope. All DDO players are 1090% unfamiliar with the pnp game. :)

And no, I always tried to get through quickly. The longer you screw around in the dungeon, the more wandering monster checks get made.

[DakFrost]

Apparently, IP = I'll be at the end fight in 30 seconds.

That's probably a better way to treat it then something like; IP = I have time to browse the AH, visit the vendors, and grab a coffee.

Well, only if you were hoping for a completion.

But as I said before. Take your time, you can jump into the next quest.

[Nahiz]

If you can't deduce that "IP" means the quest could end soon, then I can't help you.

Although I'm fairly sure a well trained monkey could figure it out.

That last sentence is simply unaceptable, dude. Take it easy.

[Oliphant]

Well, if someone would have sent me the Uber-Players decoder ruing, I'd probably be "in the know."

The fact that you used the word "implies" means that you've basically lost the argument. Words are meant to convey what you mean. Not what you want to have someone think you actually mean without having to say it directly. That's kinda stuff is left for high school dating rituals, and the singles bar scene.

Tell me, do you use you mad clairvoyance skillz to train monkeys or something? 'Cause I'd pay to see that.

When someone post IP it literally means "in progress" but it implies "not waiting around, i.e. not flower sniffing"

[Talon_Moonshadow]

When someone post IP it literally means "in progress" but it implies "not waiting around, i.e. not flower sniffing"





Darn; the zergers have even taken over all of the useful abbreviations too....

[DakFrost]

That last sentence is simply unaceptable, dude. Take it easy.

I was simply referring to his question asking if I trained monkeys. Take it easy.

[Oliphant]

Darn; the zergers have even taken over all of the useful abbreviations too....

I'm slowing becoming a zerger over the years, which is good because it's more like real DnD where you role play a character as if life actually matters. Artificially slowing down for genocide bonus... yawn

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

Greetings to all,

Are there any groups of DDO players that played D&D before computers and enjoy exploring the dungeons and other environments rather than rushing through them? I've joined adventuring groups only to find myself left far behind when I stop for a moment to marvel at something, drink a potion, or even pick up a treasure. Is this the mode that most player groups engage in?

A classic misinterpretation! DDO is fundamentally different from D&D, in that the pen and paper game is a malleable social endeavor while this MMO is a fragile justification for a forum that allows people to plant a deeply personal flag in one of six different topics.

This one, for instance, could fit in the "noobs/casuals/flowersniffers v. vets/elitists/powergamers" category, or perhaps even the "lack of LFMs/game is dying" if someone were intrepid enough. There is a fairly steep learning curve, but don't worry. After a few threads you'll start to pick up pattern and names. Happy hunting!

[bartharok]

When someone post IP it literally means "in progress" but it implies "not waiting around, i.e. not flower sniffing"

It may imply that when you use it. When i use it, it just means "i have started the quest"

[Nahiz]

I was simply referring to his question asking if I trained monkeys. Take it easy.

Ok, my bad. I didn´t read the whole thread. I´m sorry.

[schelsullivan]

I usually solo stuff at the hardest possible settings. This usually means dungeon crawl. I want it to be so hard that zerging would be suicide. I sometimes take hours to complete or fail. I almost never join groups for more often than not, it just makes things to easy.

I wish there were no minimum level requirements on quests for this reason. I often wish to attempt quest well under-level for the most uber challenge.

[bsquishwizzy]

If you can't deduce that "IP" means the quest could end soon, then I can't help you.

Although I'm fairly sure a well trained monkey could figure it out.

Wow.

Just wow.

When you say In Progress (which is what IP means), the words themselves ONLY convey that the quest is act8ive. In fact, nowadays, you don't even need to state IP - the amount of time spent in the quest is displayed on the LFM, making IP redundant.

Any "trained monkey" can figure that out on their own.

Again, maybe you should stop posting LFMs. You obviously have a very low tolerance for dealing with normal people (even moreso than me), and you think people can read your mind, or deduce a whole lot of stuff when you write two little characters. Tell me, Junior, do the letters "IP" look different when you type them in anger, as opposed to when you're not in a foul mood?

if anyone wants to see why PUGs are down, this is a fine illustration as to why. You average player would rather do their own dental work than to run with people like this.

[phillymiket]

When you say In Progress (which is what IP means), the words themselves ONLY convey that the quest is act8ive. In fact, nowadays, you don't even need to state IP - the amount of time spent in the quest is displayed on the LFM, making IP redundant.

This is a good point.

"IP" used to mean "we already started" without indicting the speed.

Now it means "I'm flying through a bunch of content and I put IP in the LFM so I can switch from quest to quest w/o updating the LFM. Join in! but don't expect to get all the chests from the first quest you hop in because we are moving fast - but don't worry there is more to follow."

But how does a new player know this?

Maybe "In Unstoppable Motion" will be my new LFM tag :-D

Seems unambiguous.

[Monkey-Boy]

keep up or get left behind.

if you can't keep up you won't add any value to the group anyway.

[DakFrost]

Wow.

Just wow.

When you say In Progress (which is what IP means), the words themselves ONLY convey that the quest is act8ive. In fact, nowadays, you don't even need to state IP - the amount of time spent in the quest is displayed on the LFM, making IP redundant.

Any "trained monkey" can figure that out on their own.

Again, maybe you should stop posting LFMs. You obviously have a very low tolerance for dealing with normal people (even moreso than me), and you think people can read your mind, or deduce a whole lot of stuff when you write two little characters. Tell me, Junior, do the letters "IP" look different when you type them in anger, as opposed to when you're not in a foul mood?

if anyone wants to see why PUGs are down, this is a fine illustration as to why. You average player would rather do their own dental work than to run with people like this.

I think you should avoid joining any LFMs, for your own good, you seem to get fairly disgruntled quickly and I can't imagine what your reaction would be if someone opened a chest or competed an optional before you entered a quest. You obviously like moving at a very leisurely pace and unfortunately for you, DDO is made up of mostly vets who like to keep a quick pace.

The days of hanging around outside of a quest waiting for a full group before starting are over.

If anyone wants to know why the majority of people solo they need only look at your rage filled posts. Nobody wants to open an LFM just to have someone have a tantrum because the quest isn't being run they way they like.

I will continue to post LFMs, with "Elite - IP" in the description. Please, do yourself and everyone else a favor and don't join any such LFMs.

Cheers

[Monkey-Boy]

The days of hanging around outside of a quest waiting for a full group before starting are over.



I wouldn't say that, but it's not the standard.

[DakFrost]

I wouldn't say that, but it's not the standard.

I can't remember the last time I've done this...for anything.

Then again, I usually run my own LFMs just to avoid such situations.

[Monkey-Boy]

I can't remember the last time I've done this...for anything.

Then again, I usually run my own LFMs just to avoid such situations.

We're not new players.

New Players need to do things at their speed. And it's best done not with vets.

[DakFrost]

We're not new players.

New Players need to do things at their speed. And it's best done not with vets.

New, old, whatever...it doesn't matter to me. As long as a player realizes that the quests are "IP" and gets there in a timey fashion.

The train rolls on, if your late to the station you'll have to catch the next one. Luckily, there is usually one departing every 15 minuets or so.

[bsquishwizzy]

I think you should avoid joining any LFMs, for your own good, you seem to get fairly disgruntled quickly and I can't imagine what your reaction would be if someone opened a chest or competed an optional before you entered a quest. You obviously like moving at a very leisurely pace and unfortunately for you, DDO is made up of mostly vets who like to keep a quick pace.

Never had a problem keeping up with people like you. However, if you post “zerg” – as opposed to requiring people to divine your intent – your guts would be in less of a knot than they are. And I would be able to tell whether to join or avoid a group like yours.

Remember, it was YOU who complained about someone darting to take 15 seconds to refresh their ship buffs, not me.

And you’re surprised when someone calls you on it? Really?


The days of hanging around outside of a quest waiting for a full group before starting are over.

Yeah, thanks a lot. Usually people waited a minute for others to join. Now, because of behaviors that you impose on other people, you quickly turn-off new players to PUGs.


If anyone wants to know why the majority of people solo they need only look at your rage filled posts. Nobody wants to open an LFM just to have someone have a tantrum because the quest isn't being run they way they like.

I wasn’t the one complaining about someone taking 15 seconds to update their ship buffs. That was…um…you.


I will continue to post LFMs, with "Elite - IP" in the description. Please, do yourself and everyone else a favor and don't join any such LFMs.

Cheers

The word “zerg” consists of 4 letters. Is it really that hard to type? Unless you’re pecking on the keyboard with your nose, it’s not that huge of an effort.

Just imagine it in your head: “Elite zerg – IP.”

Concentrate.

Move your fingers over the keyboard…

…you can do it…I know you can. Even us “trained monkey” types are able to accomplish that.

Imagine clearing up ALL of the confusion that has you so uptight because you can’t wait maybe a minute for someone to update their ship buffs and clear out their inventory.

Seriously. Is being courteous really that hard?

[bsquishwizzy]

New, old, whatever...it doesn't matter to me. As long as a player realizes that the quests are "IP" and gets there in a timey fashion.

The train rolls on, if your late to the station you'll have to catch the next one. Luckily, there is usually one departing every 15 minuets or so.

Define "timely."

Do it in a "reasonable" manner.

[bartharok]

[QUOTE=bsquishwizzy;5479779Seriously. Is being courteous really that hard?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

[Oxarhamar]

Seriously. Is being courteous really that hard?

1) join IP quest
2) enter in a timely manner ( before finished/hopefully soon enough to contribute)
3) rince & repeat.

Yep that seams too hard.

[Monkey-Boy]

If you're expecting people to wait for you, you are the one not being courteous.

[bartharok]

If you're expecting people to wait for you, you are the one not being courteous.

Being courteous means both waiting AND not expecting the other to wait

[Monkey-Boy]

Being courteous means both waiting AND not expecting the other to wait

But since the slow people add no value to the group there is no point in waiting for them.

[DakFrost]

The word “zerg” consists of 4 letters. Is it really that hard to type? Unless you’re pecking on the keyboard with your nose, it’s not that huge of an effort.

Just imagine it in your head: “Elite zerg – IP.”

Concentrate.

Move your fingers over the keyboard…

…you can do it…I know you can. Even us “trained monkey” types are able to accomplish that.

Imagine clearing up ALL of the confusion that has you so uptight because you can’t wait maybe a minute for someone to update their ship buffs and clear out their inventory.

Seriously. Is being courteous really that hard?

Once again. "IP" does not = "Zerg"

I know that seems hard for you to understand.

Take a deep breath, close your eyes, and think about it really hard.

Get it yet?

If you require hand holding, baby sitting, or 10 minuets to prepare for a quest, then "IP" isn't for you.

Feel free to start your own LFMs with terms such as; "Flower Sniffing", "First Time", "Waiting for Healer", or any other type of description that lets other players know that the quest may not start for awhile.

Cheers

[Monkey-Boy]

Is anyone else amazed that people haven't caught on yet that "zerg" is the default speed?

[bartharok]

But since the slow people add no value to the group there is no point in waiting for them.

Being courteous is an end in itself. It needs no further reason.

[bartharok]

Is anyone else amazed that people haven't caught on yet that "zerg" is the default speed?

You afe in no way a measure of the univefse. Believing yourself to be so is pure hubris

[Monkey-Boy]

Being courteous is an end in itself. It needs no further reason.

Wrong :)

[bartharok]

Wrong :)

Then you have no knowledge of the concept, oh lover of wrongs

[Monkey-Boy]

You afe in no way a measure of the univefse.

Am to.



Believing yourself to be so is pure hubris

It's not hubris if it's true.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Being courteous is an end in itself. It needs no further reason.


:)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I can solve all of the problems mankind has ever experienced with two words: "Be nice!"

[jalont]

And when people jump into a quest whose comments SPECIFICALLY say “no zerging”,” and they zerg, what’s your advice then (besides squelch)?

And yeah, I’ve seen that happen.

Pugs almost never zerg. There's a difference between zerging and moving at the proper speed the quest dictates. The game has become so easy, that you simply move into a room, oneshot all the mobs, move into the next room. This isn't zerging, and I really don't see any reason to go slower than this, whether someone puts "no-zerg" in an lfm or not.

[Monkey-Boy]

I can solve all of the problems mankind has ever experienced with two words: "Be nice!"

Oh come on, this is the internet.

[bsquishwizzy]

Once again. "IP" does not = "Zerg"

I know that seems hard for you to understand.

Take a deep breath, close your eyes, and think about it really hard.

Get it yet?

If you require hand holding, baby sitting, or 10 minuets to prepare for a quest, then "IP" isn't for you.

Feel free to start your own LFMs with terms such as; "Flower Sniffing", "First Time", "Waiting for Healer", or any other type of description that lets other players know that the quest may not start for awhile.

Cheers

If you can’t wait an additional 1 minute to let someone empty their backpack, refresh their buffs, and get to the quest then it is a zerg. Period.

And IP means “In Progress” coming from the “I” in “In” and the “P” in “Progress”. And the words “In Progress” – in that specific sequence, as opposed to “progress In” which would require more context - only mean the quest is active. However, here is the Cliff Notes version of what “In Progress” does NOT mean:

1) That you are waiting at the entrance of the quest waiting to get in.
2) That you are at the beginning of the quest.
3) That you are almost finished with the quest.
4) That you are in the middle of the quest.
5) That you are moving in the quest quickly.
6) That you are moving in the quest sloooooowly.
7) That you are really, really good at this particular video game and that you are moving faster than most mere mortals wo do really important things like police the streets, build houses, grow food, heal the sick, tend to the ill, and so on.
8) That you are really, really bad at this particular video game because, well, you have better things to do with your life.
9) You are very successful at running this quest.
10) You are not very successful at running this quest.
11) That you have been playing DDO for a very long time, and therefore can do this quest really fast.
12) That you are relatively new to DDO, and that this quest is challenging.
13) That you know this quest very well.
14) That you do not know this quest very well.
15) That you have very good gear and can therefore run this quest very, very fast.
16) That you have very poor gear, but can still run this quest very, very fast.
17) That you have good gear, and are having difficulty with this quest.
18) That you have poor gear, and are having difficulty with this quest.

Likewise
:
1) It says nothing about your personal hygiene habits.
2) It said nothing about what foods you like or dislike.
3) Is says nothing about your personal aspirations in life: like being good at something else other than an MMO.
4) It provides no clue as to the names of your mother and/or father (unless one or both is an anagram of the words “in progress”).
5) It doesn’t tell people of you have married, have children, or anything about your chosen profession (again: unless this falls into the specific “anagram” rule cited above).
6) It says nothing as to your current mental state.
7) It denotes nothing on whether you prefer strawberry jam over grape jelly and/or orange marmalade.
8) It makes no mention of your country of origin.
9) It doesn’t mention if English is your first language.
10) In fact, it doesn’t even say that you know English at all, and have just come to understand that IP means the quest is currently underway.
11) That, as a cleric, you have issues with being the recipient of Stoneskin (which, in this instance, wouldn’t surprise me in the least).


In fact, there are about a billion-and-one combinations of what the words “In Progress” do not mean. There is only ONE specific thing that the words DO mean, and that is that the current activity, in which you are engaged, is currently underway. And that pretty much covers the meaning of those two words together, in this specific context.

Honestly, what is it - in particular - with the English language such that you don’t understand about the meanings of some very specific words? I mean, this kind of stuff is really very rudimentary. Taught very early on in childhood and all.

So, does this clarify just how utterly, totally wrong you are on this matter, or do I need to continue?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If you are worth people's time they will be nice to you.



...and so, mankind's problems continue...

[DakFrost]

So, does this clarify just how utterly, totally wrong you are on this matter, or do I need to continue?

So you still don't understand? I guess some people are just slower then others.

I'll repeat once again, you should probably avoid any LFM marked "IP" as you don't seem to the type of person that would do well in it. You'll most likely end up shopping on the AH, get lost on route, or demand a healer join and miss the completion.

Stick with slow moving, flower sniffing groups, or soloing and you'll be a much happier person. Then you can avoid getting upset about what people mean when the put "IP" in the LFM.

I will continue to run my LFMs with "Elite - IP" in the description. Please avoid those.


Cheers

[bsquishwizzy]

So you still don't understand? I guess some people are just slower then others.

I'll repeat once again, you should probably avoid any LFM marked "IP" as you don't seem to the type of person that would do well in it. You'll most likely end up shopping on the AH, get lost on route, or demand a healer join and miss the completion.

Stick with slow moving, flower sniffing groups, or soloing and you'll be a much happier person. Then you can avoid getting upset about what people mean when the put "IP" in the LFM.

I will continue to run my LFMs with "Elite - IP" in the description. Please avoid those.


Cheers

Nahhh. I'm going to join them from now on. It'll be fun!

[bsquishwizzy]

Honestly, English really isn't THAT complicated of a language to understand.

[DakFrost]

Nahhh. I'm going to join them from now on. It'll be fun!

Well...if listening to you complain about everyone else moving to quickly or crying for heals is fun, then yeah, it'll be a blast.

That is, if you make it to the quest before it's over. Which is the most likely scenario.

[DakFrost]

Honestly, English really isn't THAT complicated of a language to understand.

Which is why I'm so confused as to your reading comprehension fail.

[bsquishwizzy]

Well...if listening to you complain about everyone else moving to quickly or crying for heals is fun, then yeah, it'll be a blast.

That is, if you make it to the quest before it's over. Which is the most likely scenario.

Saucer of milk, Table #2 please.

Would you like some Catnip to go with that entrée'?

[DakFrost]

Saucer of milk, Table #2 please.

Would you like some Catnip to go with that entrée'?

Big juicy sausage, Table #1 please.

Would you like some special sauce with that?

[bsquishwizzy]

Big juicy sausage, Table #1 please.

Would you like some special sauce with that?

I guess that depends on the type of sausage.

Ok, since you have this problem with the meaning of words, and their utilization, let's compromise. How about you use the word "fast."

It means "speedy."

Something like "Elite fast - IP." Or, since the LFM should note the quest you are doing AND the difficulty, you don't even need to use the word "Elite." Just "Fast - IP."

Because "IP" (In Progress) says nothing about the speed in which you want to move, or are moving. I mean that's pretty self-evident. Appearently not to some.

Here's your problem - and make no mistake, it is your problem - getting all huffy because someone joins your LFM and taking 1 minute to redo their buffs, and make room in their inventory is not holding you up if it takes you 30 min to do one quest. That's approximately 3% of the time you spent in the quest. It's nothing.

If it only takes you 5 mins to do the quest, then you have a right to be upset: that 1 min is 20% of your quest. Then it becomes "something."

The person hitting your LFM has no idea - zip, zero, nada - of how long it takes for you to run a quest - any quest for that matter. And assume that no one really cares how uber you consider yourself because...well...they don't. Also assume that most of the people out there looking for a group don't know you, and don't know you have "mad skillz" at this particular video game. And assume that they aren't going to remember your name and try to model themselves after you and your "uberness." Because, honestly, they won't.

If you say "Elite - IP", they only think they get from your comments is that the quest is being run in "elite" and that it is currently underway; I know you have a hard time understanding that point. However, most people when seeing something like "Fast - IP" or "Elite Fast - IP" will reconsider hitting your LFM if they are a flower-sniffer. This is mainly because the word fast denotes the speed at which the quest is run. And THEN if they mope along, you have a right to be upset.

That is, unless, you post "Elite - IP" simply so you can get snotty with someone who doesn't share your little hidden agenda, and get off on that type of thing. Not saying you do, but pointing out that if this is the case, it's deplorable. I mean, if you know you can just blow through content solo, there is really no need to post an LFM, but you do, and throw tantrums when someone decides to take 1 minute to refresh their buffs and empty their inventory. Then, you take umbrage with a simple suggestion to let someone hitting an LFM know what they are getting themselves into.

There are people out there that do that, you know: wait for other people to come along and yell at them for really no good reason. This is done to elevate themselves at the expense of the other individual. I mean, it's really sad when you think about it. I'm hoping that's not the case here.

You see, not everyone in this game really cares about the things you do. And if you are going to have a little hissy fit over 1 minute in a quest, maybe it is the best for both parties that you either don't post an LFM, or have the common courtesy to tell others just what sort of environment they are jumping in to. The whole "Elite - IP" doesn't do that.

It's only 4 extra letters, and maybe an additional space. Hopefully, your fingers will not seize up in the process of posting the LFM, or a tendon fray because of the massive amount of digital dexterity required.

And while vets should probably not mix with new players, please do the rest of us a favor and try to NOT DISCOURAGE NEW PLAYERS FROM GROUPING. Because the game needs new blood in order to survive, and doing solo DDO is about as interesting as watching paint dry. And I have heard enough new players who have left the game, and/or sworn off grouping (before leaving the game) because of incidents like you have described. They didn't know somebody's mercurial BS "unwritten rules" of LFMs, ran into some uptight "vets" who freaked out because they wanted to do something simple like getting buffs or whatnot, and then decided that grouping was not worth it.

Among my favorites is a guy who went on a twenty-second rant about how you should never Stoneskin a cleric. I still have yet for someone to explain to me what that is. But this guy was a "vet." and obviously he knew everything about the game.

I know people who have sworn-off raids because of this type of childish behavior. Honestly, it only takes one uptight jerk to ruin the whole experience for 2 to 11 other people. You really want to be that guy?

So, there's a compromise.

You don't even have to thank me for it.

[bartharok]

Oh come on, this is the internet.

Being nasty on the internet is easy because there are few direct consequences for the one being nasty. Thus being unpleasant to others on the internet is cowardly. Im actually quite a bit more corteous on the net, just because of this (not that im nasty in real life either, but i do snap at people more often in RL).

But each to his own, i suppose.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Being nasty on the internet is easy because there are few direct consequences for the one being nasty. Thus being unpleasant to others on the internet is cowardly. Im actually quite a bit more corteous on the net, just because of this (not that im nasty in real life either, but i do snap at people more often in RL).

But each to his own, i suppose.



I'm no saint. But I've lived long enough to know what kind of person I would like to be and how I want to do unto others.
Also how I want to be perceived by others.

I want to be a nice guy and I want to be known as a nice guy. Life works better that way.

On the Internet, (especially the forums) I can take time to choose my words carefully and really come across in a way that paints me in a good light.

I actually find it easier to be polite on the Internet than it is to be rude.

(although I also pride myself on my sarcasm....)

[DakFrost]

I guess that depends on the type of sausage.
I know people who have sworn-off raids because of this type of childish behavior. Honestly, it only takes one uptight jerk to ruin the whole experience for 2 to 11 other people. You really want to be that guy?


I don't really know what you're talking about. I think you may have suffered a stroke while reading this thread because nowhere in it did I go on a rant or yell at anyone. You may be mistaking some of your own posts as mine.

I stated that rudeness goes both ways and that "Zergers" are as equally rude as people that join an "IP" LFM and take an unreasonable amount of time to enter the quest and then come to the forums to complain that a rude "Zerger" didn't wait for them.

As stated numerous times before, people need to read the description in the LFM. But I fully expect another epic reading comprehension fail on your part and another wall or text raging about some straw man that you've imagined.

Once again, please avoid any LFM marked "IP" as you clearly lack the ability to comprehend the meaning.

[96th_Malice]

After running the dungeons hundreds of times yes.

I still enjoy exploreing my way around on the first time but, after that yea it's full speed.

Welcome!

Agreed 100%

[nolifer1]

most players will have experienced these dungeons 10, 20, maybe a hundred times - how would you play them through in that case?
i thinki play all quests in 100+ times there is even quests that i run thousands of times lol(shadow crypt , wiz king dq1 and many others xp quests), if op looking for player to run slow, need to put lfm no zergers , i personally want get mo loot of xp as fast as possible