Bann DDO-Store SP-Potions from Raids!

[Lanadazia]

Howdy!
First of all, i know this topic might get some attention and draw some player-aggro on me. (fine with that)

Last few days i've been raiding and had an idea. Right now are SP-Potions on sale, what made me writing this:
Bann DDO-Store SP-Potions from Raids.

Here are my thoughts on it:

If only the ingame SP-Potions would be allowed in Raids, the biggest pay2win in this game would - at least in raids - be eliminated
A raid should be about good communication, timing, how well the players know the raid, the skill-level of the players and good decision making. NOT about who paid the most, to succeed.

Casters are quite powerful, hence limited in their actions through their SP -Pool. If a raid can get completed should not be decided on how many pots a healer can drink, but on the raid-party.
if people don't manage their ressources during a raid, they should be "punished" for it. rather in form to spent plat/ drink ingame-sp-potions, or in failing the raid.

This way, ingame-SP-potions will become more valueable. This will also boost the somewhat dead plat-economy on the live-servers and making plat more worth again.
People will have to make more decisions. Take the guildrenown, the commendations, the heart seeds or loot for plat?
Some of you might think now, that this was a minor decision, but in the end its about ressource management.

With store-pots ddo is just not as good, as it could be without. mana-regeneration is something i really do not like in other games, cause i like to have to manage ressources.
so if people in ddo have to manage their sp, it will be more challenging, will have more meaningful decision-making and therefore be more fun.
in addition, items that restore SP are getting more value aswell. If its the Bauble from 'Weapon Shipment' or the Vile Blasphemy from 'Ascension Chamber'
this way some unpopular quests/packs might get some more attention too.

DDO is fun already, with more decision-making and ressource management it will even be more fun.
Forcing players to make decisions and manage their ressources also keeps a game more interessting, than a "i don't need to pay attention"-mentality-gameplay
quests that do not challenge me in my skills of playing, my knowledge of the game/quest, my ressource management and my decision-making are boring to me.

comming to my last point of this:
other store items are banned aswell. spirit-cakes, eladrin rest statuette and ehtereal rest shrines are not available in raids already.
to complete the anti-extra-rest/regeneration banning store-sp-pots will be a wise decision.
also the goldseal healing potions should be treated that way (would make a few collectibles more valueable too, since you can turn them in for standard healing elixiers)


the only negative point that is comming to mind is, that raids might fail, due to unprepared players or a lack of ressources.
this is no major issue imo though.

so far,
- Lana



TL;DR:

+ less pay2win!
+ raids more about communication, knowledge, ressource management, decision-making than about who paid to succeed
+ ingame major sp potions become more valueable / boost to plat-economy / plat is more worth again
+ people need a good ressource management to succeed
+ also people will be forced to decision-making, what is important to keep a game interessting (its boring if there is no challenge)
+ spirit-cakes, Rest of the Eladrin Statuette and Ethereal Rest Shrine Statuette are not available too.

- raids fail due to a lack of ressources /unprepared players

[Gremmlynn]

You do realize that, for the people who would be doing this, "pay to win" is what pays their bills and puts food on their tables. So not going to happen.

[Lanadazia]

yes i do realize. but store pots still will be bought
since you save the ingame pots for raids you had to buy store pots for other quests/challenges

also: why are cakes then restricted? why would they miss out on this?
exactly! because it was not intended to be this way.
the eldarin rest/ethereal rest shrine isn't banned for no reason. banning the sp/hp potions aswell just would make sense

[Grosbeak07]

yes i do realize. but store pots still will be bought
since you save the ingame pots for raids you had to buy store pots for other quests/challenges

also: why are cakes then restricted? why would they miss out on this?
exactly! because it was not intended to be this way.
the eldarin rest/ethereal rest shrine isn't banned for no reason. banning the sp/hp potions aswell just would make sense


True, but it should have been done at the beginning of Free to play. Doing it now, really won't help anything or make a difference.

[Monkey-Boy]

Considering the other store stuff doesn't work why not?

[PermaBanned]

That's an awfully long OP to try and boost the value of looted mana pots.

Turbine makes money from store pots, and has raid mechanics that drain mana... I don't see Turbine banning a money maker.

[Chai]

A great suggestion for 2009.

As it stands, auto-success has become the expectation over the past few years, and selling circumvention of game balance mechanisms has likely become a significant enough portion of total income where the likelihood of it being removed to preserve game balance is remote.

[Scrabbler]

It's true that the ability to use multiple spellpoint potions seriously screws up raid gameplay, but that goes for every kind of mana pot, no matter where you got it. Farming a dungeon, trading on AH, or spending $ dollars... the effect is the same once you're in the raid.

It would've been much better if raid dungeons had a limit on use of spellpoint potions, such as one pot per 10 minutes (pro-rated). But it's a lot too late to add that restriction now.

[Lanadazia]

well considering the mana-drain being bonded to the selling of storepotions
they could just fix the drain-ammount

EE citw loth 4k sp drains are stupid, no matter what potions you use ;)

[Oxarhamar]

yeah doubt its going to happen.

fun idea though.


I wonder how many pots are actually being used in Raids, in the Raids I've been in players focus on avoiding the SP drain mechanics. At the end of the raids Pots are offered to players casters, healers to a "no thanks I didn't drink any"

Are some players drinking them? Probably some and hey, if that's how they want to use their TP then I'm all for it.

I rarely use my Mysterious Bauble in these Raids and certainly have only ever drank a pot once in an Epic Raid at all (our first EE Deathwrym that kind of dragged on and on in the end fight)

[axel15810]

Look there has to be some pay to win in DDO for the lights to stay on. Game has to make money to stay open, the game can't live on selling new content/cosmetics alone. On XP stones and raid timer bypasses I think they've crossed the line. But as far as SP pots, I don't think see this as being a big problem. From my experience most people don't chug lots of store pots during raids. And if they do, it's not a big deal. Running out of SP is rarely the reason a raid wipes. After all SP pots don't increase DPS, they just let you cast longer.

And SP pots have a decent droprate in game....I have a ton of them on my cleric that I've built up over the years and I rarely touch them.

edit: Oh and until the devs change drop rates, everyone is running epic normal anyway...for most parties there is no need to use SP pots to get through end game raids on that difficulty.

[Enoach]

As one that has hundreds of in game SP-Potions and still have some Store Types from give aways and daily dice...

While I'm disappointed that these types of resources are very abundant, it is not for me to decide how others have fun playing a caster type.

I think the two raids where casters have to watch for drainage on the resource not in small amounts but in large and fast amounts are not good design.

I like the idea of Anti-casting mechanics that need to be worked around - Such as implementing the AOE Silence or even a temporary tagging of 30 seconds on individual basis that prevents casting. This would be more in line with managing resources and tactics, instead of Hiding/Running from an effect or having to down two quick anti curse potions to stop the hemorrhaging.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

they should cut all the p2w ddostore bullcrap out of the game, sp pots, hp pots, stat tomes, skill tomes, fate point tomes, bells.

of course if they did that then there would be no game. you should probably just start working on resigning yourself to the ****** unpleasant reality.

[Hafeal]

Well, even if this happened it wouldn't help.

1) Players don't need pots on Normal Raid runs. So, that zerg to a 20th list isn't gonna get slowed not having access to pots.

2) Epic Elite Raids? What, maybe 20 people per server regularly run elite for "challenge." The rest as a 1 time event for xp and favor?

3) Elite level players don't buy the DDO Store pots unless feeling lazy I would guess. If I have compiled several hundred extra mana pots in my play time, I can only imagine what the best players have.

So,

4) Casual and new players buy the pots to get through tough Raid moments. Yeah, you know what, let 'em. :D

[Grahson]

You would also have to ban the sp pots on the shard exchange if they become more valuable you won't see any on the plat auction.

[phillymiket]

The only time I use pots is if I'm on a healer and I'm in a raid with insufficient moxy to complete (I pug a lot, so I get what I get).

Never in quests. Never (well. mostly never) in even a half-way decent party.

I suppose I should just let the raid fail, but I usually grimace and drink a pot if that's what the situation calls for.

I always have a stack of 50+ "non-pay-to-win" majors on the healer.

However, if I'm going to drink a pot I use a P2W store pot and pass my collected majors, above the 50 I keep just in case, to my melees to give to friendly healers.

Is that bad?

[Knobull]

I have a simpler solution: don't run raids. That's what I do, people are way too uptight about raids and there is just too much drama. If I wanted that I'd go back to work at night and on weekends. Playing ddo is about having fun for me.

[DarthCaedus]

yes i do realize. but store pots still will be bought
since you save the ingame pots for raids you had to buy store pots for other quests/challenges

also: why are cakes then restricted? why would they miss out on this?
exactly! because it was not intended to be this way.
the eldarin rest/ethereal rest shrine isn't banned for no reason. banning the sp/hp potions aswell just would make sense

This is a great way for Turbine to reduce revenue and reduce raid participation. /slow golf clap

[Powskier]

prob stated allready...but ddo cards gave mana pots, and even non dupers have a 100 stack or more.Easy to save them too...make a melee and give all mana pots to caster

[Chauncey1]

No.

[darkly_dreaming]

I don't agree, just because that boat has long sailed. Even if this happened, the only people you would be punishing are the new and more inexperienced players. Experienced players would just go back to carrying/wearing con-op and a torc and probably avoid unknown PUGs even more than they might now.

Store bought SP potions are used as a convenience, not because they're necessary to succeed.

[Angelic-council]

DDO would be a better place and more challenging game if SP pots, UMD were removed. And any other source that allows people to survive/win in some sircumstances (not completely, but limited). I like the game where people use their brain and intelligent tactics in order to survive and complete EEs. And not, EE mobs tickles me or I can destroy this dungeon within few sec (because of the OP build).

As we all know, the difference between SP users/non SP users are huge. Most good games limit casters power by placing longer CD on each potions so that they can't spam them. However, this is not the DDO.. and the game mechanism is completely different. It's too late I think for this game to change in a good direction. Except that... give players more solo power (MMR/PRR change - heal AMP change).

[Gremmlynn]

yes i do realize. but store pots still will be bought
since you save the ingame pots for raids you had to buy store pots for other quests/challenges

also: why are cakes then restricted? why would they miss out on this?
exactly! because it was not intended to be this way.
the eldarin rest/ethereal rest shrine isn't banned for no reason. banning the sp/hp potions aswell just would make sensePeople use SP potions outside of raids?

Personally, I see it more likely that they would allow the other stuff in raids before disallowing potions. That other stuff isn't allowed basically because it was disallowed before Turbine had a good handle on where the money was to be made from the F2P (P2W) model.

[Gremmlynn]

DDO would be a better place and more challenging game if SP pots, UMD were removed. And any other source that allows people to survive/win in some sircumstances (not completely, but limited). I like the game where people use their brain and intelligent tactics in order to survive and complete EEs. And not, EE mobs tickles me or I can destroy this dungeon within few sec (because of the OP build).

As we all know, the difference between SP users/non SP users are huge. Most good games limit casters power by placing longer CD on each potions so that they can't spam them. However, this is not the DDO.. and the game mechanism is completely different. It's too late I think for this game to change in a good direction. Except that... give players more solo power (MMR/PRR change - heal AMP change).Really, DDO would be a better and more challenging game if Turbine didn't need to generate any income, much less a profitable one, off it. But that's not the reality of the situation.

[Enoach]

DDO would be a better place and more challenging game if SP pots, UMD were removed. ...

As one that has lots of these SP potions because I tend to collect them and use them sparingly (Not as shrines) because I like to manage my resources and don't have a "I must be the only one with a kill count" mentality I would agree they are too abundant. Part of that issue is that they have to be because of some choices made as well as the complaints that are levied by players that utilize these types of resources because that is how they have fun. Personally I think the Caster characters would see some players leaving if these were not an option to them.

As for UMD personally I don't see UMD as the problem. The problem is how easily it is to stock up on 100s of scrolls/wands. However, at different points in the game not having access to this type of supplies did tend to pigeon hole some classes into particular rolls - Such as Wizards as buff/hold bots and clerics as healbots. I for one don't want that type of return.

However, one possible way to resolve this better would be to reduce the scroll stack size from 100 to something lower. By nature of available space this would reduce the available carrying space of a character. Say scrolls were reduced to 10 per stack, this would mean it would now take up 10 slots in a backpack to carry the 100 scrolls, multiply that out by 3 to 4 scrolls people commonly carry for UMD purposes and it will create a convenience factor of available backpack space to number of trips to a vendor. I think the stack size should be the "correction" made to bring UMD out of the top spot of needed skills as it would be a balance. Now one drawback to reducing the stack size is that it will make SP Potions more valuable to some builds/playstyles

[Angelic-council]

As one that has lots of these SP potions because I tend to collect them and use them sparingly (Not as shrines) because I like to manage my resources and don't have a "I must be the only one with a kill count" mentality I would agree they are too abundant. Part of that issue is that they have to be because of some choices made as well as the complaints that are levied by players that utilize these types of resources because that is how they have fun. Personally I think the Caster characters would see some players leaving if these were not an option to them.

As for UMD personally I don't see UMD as the problem. The problem is how easily it is to stock up on 100s of scrolls/wands. However, at different points in the game not having access to this type of supplies did tend to pigeon hole some classes into particular rolls - Such as Wizards as buff/hold bots and clerics as healbots. I for one don't want that type of return.

However, one possible way to resolve this better would be to reduce the scroll stack size from 100 to something lower. By nature of available space this would reduce the available carrying space of a character. Say scrolls were reduced to 10 per stack, this would mean it would now take up 10 slots in a backpack to carry the 100 scrolls, multiply that out by 3 to 4 scrolls people commonly carry for UMD purposes and it will create a convenience factor of available backpack space to number of trips to a vendor. I think the stack size should be the "correction" made to bring UMD out of the top spot of needed skills as it would be a balance. Now one drawback to reducing the stack size is that it will make SP Potions more valuable to some builds/playstyles

Well, I don't want turbine to completely eliminate UMD, but limit the usage.. stacking, like you said.

Regarding scroll supplies, I don't think 10 scrolls per stack is the way to go. It would only stress out those who already complaining about the inventory space. I don't think turbine will do that at this point. But, again... I don't think they gonna do anything about this lol.. By looking at current DDO, I think turbine went too far.

[chrissybunny]

I agree with the OP. This is bad design and way too P2W.

[jalont]

Casters are not the current OP FotM. This seems like an odd time to bring this up.

[jalont]

I agree with the OP. This is bad design and way too P2W.

Except it's exactly what the player base wants. Here's a hint. When you demand more and more player power and trivialization of all content, you're going to push out the power gamers that financially support the game and have to rely on money coming in from the whales.

[Scrabbler]

As for UMD personally I don't see UMD as the problem. The problem is how easily it is to stock up on 100s of scrolls/wands.
UMD is not a problem... because of how easy it is to buy a full scroll stack with plat.

If it were harder to obtain or carry UMD healing items, then various kinds of gameplay problems would arise. But in the current condition, you can treat UMD healing as a basic capability for several kinds of characters. It doesn't harm the raid design in any of the ways that mana potions do.

For example, imagine that you couldn't buy Heal scrolls with plat and the only fast way to get them was Turbine Point store. That would be P2W, and that would be bad.

[Enoach]

UMD is not a problem... because of how easy it is to buy a full scroll stack with plat.

If it were harder to obtain or carry UMD healing items, then various kinds of gameplay problems would arise. But in the current condition, you can treat UMD healing as a basic capability for several kinds of characters. It doesn't harm the raid design in any of the ways that mana potions do.

For example, imagine that you couldn't buy Heal scrolls with plat and the only fast way to get them was Turbine Point store. That would be P2W, and that would be bad.

I think you miss understood what I was saying. I also don't want UMD to be changed and I was replying to another poster about UMD possibly being an issue. Now the 10 Stack was a starting point and I think it is too low myself but I'm not just thinking about healing but many short term buffs that are out there. UMD has many other advantages other than self healing. I've enjoyed several years of extending my SP pool through use of Mass cure scrolls and Heal scrolls.

[TheLegendOfAra]

While I agree 100% store bought items beyond cosmetics(like the bunny helm) that have an effect or hidden effect should be unusable in all raids, I don't think SP pots will matter much.

Granted I play builds that are not caster focused, so SP is rarely, if ever a problem for me; I have a stack 2 stacks of 100 SP pots(in game) just sitting in my bank for the day I role a caster and attempt to learn what "sp conservation" means. Heh I keep a stack of 20-30 store SP pots I've gotten from daily rolls mostly on me at all times. I imagine most people get enough in game SP pots that this would not effect raiding to much, although I'm not 100% sure about that.

It would be nice though.

[Lanadazia]

Look there has to be some pay to win in DDO for the lights to stay on. Game has to make money to stay open, the game can't live on selling new content/cosmetics alone. On XP stones and raid timer bypasses I think they've crossed the line. But as far as SP pots, I don't think see this as being a big problem. From my experience most people don't chug lots of store pots during raids. And if they do, it's not a big deal. Running out of SP is rarely the reason a raid wipes. After all SP pots don't increase DPS, they just let you cast longer.

well there still will be enough pay2win, so turbine will get some income. just think about +6 tomes, skilltomes, etc

most toons i see have a cosmetic armor and each seriously played account needs almost all adventure packs. so there is alot of income too.

i disagree on the raid bypass timers though. i think raid bypassers (and for example xp potions) are no real pay2win, since you need to run the actual quest.
you won't get a free completion by using a raidtimer. you still need to run it. that people tend to finish a 20th list in a few days is kinda weird, since raid counters do not reset on eTR and so people are not forced to stay in a certain lvl-range to finish their raiding.

also you're forgetting that there are dps-casters aswell as healing-casters

and i have to disagree on the 'wipe due to lack of sp' topic. there have been quite alot of situations in the past, where missing sp was wiping a raid
like pre u14 epic lord of blades for example, or the EE stormhorns stuff. back then noone really knew the quests. i can remember that the healer and the wizzy were drinking alot of pots during the endfight, first time i was in there

the problem is, that the epic system right now does not need anything. in EE raids you will drink pots, no matter what. but since the EE raids are effing difficult and the eN/eH do have very low droprates, i think people would rather run a low-droprate-difficulty 20 times to get the 20th list, instead of running the raid on highest difficulty to get their loot
thats another point. the difficulties ingame are not set right. but there are other threads for this

[Eth]

A raid should be about good communication, timing, how well the players know the raid, the skill-level of the players and good decision making. NOT about who paid the most, to succeed.



It should, but there can be situations where you can't avoid using pots.
I remember a EE deathwyrm in particular where we had 10 triple phylactery kills until we got the right one.

Also lag wipes are fairly common with the excellent engine this game has, cutting deep into resources.

Banning store pots, no. But I think putting a timer on them would be a good solution (like apple cider has).

[morkahn82]

+ less pay2win!

this. but stones and tomes are the most gamebreaking p2w items.

[JOTMON]

yes i do realize. but store pots still will be bought
since you save the ingame pots for raids you had to buy store pots for other quests/challenges

also: why are cakes then restricted? why would they miss out on this?
exactly! because it was not intended to be this way.
the eldarin rest/ethereal rest shrine isn't banned for no reason. banning the sp/hp potions aswell just would make sense


It would be a loss of revenue.
I only use the pots in endgame raids as needed, so if I didn't have pots for raids I wouldn't buy pots at all.


Now, I am all for removing anything that gives any advantage to any player from the store/game
All pots, augments, tomes, cakes.. That would leave the store for things like cutipet's and cosmetic items.

Raid bypasses should never have existed. delete them from the game. why introduce a mechanic to slow down the rinse/repeat and then one to bypass the mechanic you created..
unless they were watching Southpark Fremium and learned the success formula for MMO's.. ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS4VRbsjZrQ


Then remove potion, wand and scroll vendors.
Wizards should have to forage the AH or dungeons to get their scrolls to inscribe.
UMD would be less useful without a unlimited vendor supply of scrolls/wands.
Remove Hirelings from the game entirely.
Remove Dungeon Scaling.

There.. now you have a need for a balanced party for everything and no one will be crying the quests are too easy.
Players will be in the open area's and taverns begging healers to remove their curses and diseases.

[Robbenklopper]

Melees can buy SilverFlamePots through favor from a dealer, why is there no ManaPot Dealer for favor-reward at all? Or is there? I only get my pots from quests or the PlatinumAH. I would never buy one from the store, but i´m not a caster.

[phillymiket]

Melees can buy SilverFlamePots through favor from a dealer, why is there no ManaPot Dealer for favor-reward at all? Or is there? I only get my pots from quests or the PlatinumAH. I would never buy one from the store, but i´m not a caster.

I'm going to throw out a guess here.

Store bought SP pots are probably one of Turbines biggest sources of revenue.

[Robbenklopper]

I'm going to throw out a guess here.

Store bought SP pots are probably one of Turbines biggest sources of revenue.

Great guess ... :)

My Position from an old Pen&Paper AD&D Player, i was never unhappy with the whole Situation at all. You had your memorized spells and that was it. Nothing about mana. Somewhere Needs to be a Limitation for the great power casters have.

DDO is a arcade-roleplaying game that lives from it. You can get your pots from quests and/or buy the from store, or work economical with it. Your choice anyhow. So why complain about it?

If you´re a gamer, you don´t Need to have a Problem with even buying from store.
If you´re a true roleplaygamer, you don´t Need to have a Problem with not buying from the store coz you might have an own code of honor.

If you´re undecided, you can complain about, but ... come on ... it´s just a game.

[Algreg]

well, don´t use them if you don´t like them. And stop caring about things other people do. I personally see no reason to spend real life money, as meagre the amount may be, because of the usual one fool ruining a raid.

[Lanadazia]

this. but stones and tomes are the most gamebreaking p2w items.

i think tomes and stones are somewhat pay2win, but more like pay2skip. i can understand ppl buying these tho i'll never buy any of these. why would i buy expensive stuff if there are +5 tomes for favor?
you wont get any raidloot via xp stones. you still have to play all the quests to get your loot. but with sp potions its meaningless how well you're geared or how well you play
therefore i think sp potions are way more pay2win than anything else in the store. especially for casters ofc


well, don´t use them if you don´t like them. And stop caring about things other people do. I personally see no reason to spend real life money, as meagre the amount may be, because of the usual one fool ruining a raid.

i don't care what others do, but i do care what influences my gaming experience. tripple-tripple completionists with +6 tomes. nuff said
i dont care how much others spend on ddo stuff but i do care if this pay2win influences my raiding- or general questexperience.
its just less fun if something is no challenge due to paying customers. get what i'm saying?

on the bypasstimers: i don't think they should delete those. its no real pay2win either since you still have to run the raid yourself. its not like 'i bought a raidcompletion' you still have to invest your time
its a great tool if you want to finish up some raiding when you're about to TR/eTR, if people tend to run stuff 40 times in a month. well let them. they'll burnout on these pretty quick this way
in the end its everyone's self decision what they're doing

[morkahn82]

i think tomes and stones are somewhat pay2win, but more like pay2skip.

pay2cheat=pay2win=pay2skip=pay2whatever

all sources shall be banned. p2w turns every game into a cheatfest (not even speaking of exploits). And hilarious when exactly those people complain about game too easy (you paid too make it easier for you). Quality games get their revenue from monetizing content and cosmetics. DDO, a complex game with a mature intelligent playerbase (compared to other games) should not rely on cash based cheating.

[Tobril]

I just stepped into EE Mark of Death and drank 100 mana pots at the entrance.

I didn't win!

Odd...

[Wipey]

You keep saying "casters".
Why's that ? If you run out of sp on a melee or eat an Inferno because your own mistake, you won't drink a pot ? Or you would just keep playing without sp hoping someone else would spend their sp ( and those pay to win pots ) to heal / raise you ?

Those "no skill" casters might drink pots because of other's mistakes, lag or whatnot more often than you'd think.
Last week EE Mod, I got hit with 10 seconds lag during the Inferno on a Cleric. Boom - 3k sp gone. 2 minutes into the raid.
One particular EE Deathwyrm, pug ish, I drank like 30 card pots to keep hjealing people that had no business doing an EE raid. Two hours long drag.
Very rarely I'd drink one or two in EE "channel" runs. I'd always get offered pots or cards.

You can barely function on a caster in prolonged raid like Deathwyrm ( and that's with Eross, Bauble, Torc, temp sp from Nether Orb, temp sp from Dethek's and temp sp from t3 TF ) without drinking some unless you play super conservative or gimp your contribution.
And that's with the best people server has.

In some random pug ? Just forget about it. It's more like "drink like a sailor and not even guaranteed completion".
Your "pay to win useless casters" might be just trying to "save" a raid of not so good people with a miracle.

[relenttless]

Its not just casters these days that require sp....pretty much everyone does, for destiny stuff, especially cocoon. My monk sunk a couple of pots in mod recently after getting drained.....
Tell you what, if you hate the idea of store pots so much, why don't you put up your own raid lfm explaining "no store pots" in the title, I'm sure it will fill with likeminded folk in no time, that way, you can have your sanctimonious cake and eat it, and leave everyone else to get on with their game, while you get on with yours.

[HatsuharuZ]

This is an interesting idea~

[Impaqt]

The only time Mana pots are ever really an issue is when the power gamers are learning the raid and they drink them like water in order to complete and learn.

the number of pots consumed in a raid after the first few weeks in inconsequential.

Turbine needs to put a timer on using them. even if it was a 5 minute cooldown on Mana pots, that would make a huge difference in how people approach their use.

We all know thats not goingtot happen either though.

[Monkey-Boy]

I just stepped into EE Mark of Death and drank 100 mana pots at the entrance.

I didn't win!

Odd...

Drink more.

[Monkey-Boy]

Your "pay to win useless casters" might be just trying to "save" a raid of not so good people with a miracle.

That raid should fail.

[alexrcotter]

I just stepped into EE Mark of Death and drank 100 mana pots at the entrance.

I didn't win!

Odd...

it only works for casters, are you a caster then idk how to help

[Tobril]

Drink more.

<russian voice> I WILL DRINK HARDER </russian voice>




That raid should fail.

Exactly. Doomed raids are doomed. Timers will only be a nuisance
and I feel dev resources are better spent elsewhere.

Don't fix things that aren't broken.


If nothing else this thread has been amusing, as I was tempted
to check the YEAR hand on my watch to see if it said 2009...

[Tobril]

it only works for casters, are you a caster then idk how to help



wat?

I cast merfolks like 1000 times though!

[bsquishwizzy]

I think what the OP is really getting at is that we need to ban Warforged and Iconic Heroes from raids.

[Dragavon]

That's an awfully long OP to try and boost the value of looted mana pots.

Turbine makes money from store pots, and has raid mechanics that drain mana... I don't see Turbine banning a money maker.

This.

I belive that adding mana-draining mechanics to raids such as MoD is deliberate on Turbine's side to increase sales and income. To ask for them to ban store potions from raids is at best naive.....

[Robai]

I hope some day devs will add mobs to raids that are completely immune to any magic, also immune to ranged attack.
Thus, less kitting, pure melee dps.

[phillymiket]

I hope some day devs will add mobs to raids that are completely immune to any magic, also immune to ranged attack.
Thus, less kitting, pure melee dps.

You mean like it was for years and years?

One Wizard in the raid for buffs, no range characters whatsoever and just surround and beat down everything with melee?

nty

There has never been more variety in class selection by players then there is right now,

Of course we need balance but the old way was no better.

[mudfud]

Howdy!
First of all, i know this topic might get some attention and draw some player-aggro on me. (fine with that)

Last few days i've been raiding and had an idea. Right now are SP-Potions on sale, what made me writing this:
Bann DDO-Store SP-Potions from Raids.

Here are my thoughts on it:

If only the ingame SP-Potions would be allowed in Raids, the biggest pay2win in this game would - at least in raids - be eliminated
A raid should be about good communication, timing, how well the players know the raid, the skill-level of the players and good decision making. NOT about who paid the most, to succeed.

Casters are quite powerful, hence limited in their actions through their SP -Pool. If a raid can get completed should not be decided on how many pots a healer can drink, but on the raid-party.
if people don't manage their ressources during a raid, they should be "punished" for it. rather in form to spent plat/ drink ingame-sp-potions, or in failing the raid.

This way, ingame-SP-potions will become more valueable. This will also boost the somewhat dead plat-economy on the live-servers and making plat more worth again.
People will have to make more decisions. Take the guildrenown, the commendations, the heart seeds or loot for plat?
Some of you might think now, that this was a minor decision, but in the end its about ressource management.

With store-pots ddo is just not as good, as it could be without. mana-regeneration is something i really do not like in other games, cause i like to have to manage ressources.
so if people in ddo have to manage their sp, it will be more challenging, will have more meaningful decision-making and therefore be more fun.
in addition, items that restore SP are getting more value aswell. If its the Bauble from 'Weapon Shipment' or the Vile Blasphemy from 'Ascension Chamber'
this way some unpopular quests/packs might get some more attention too.

DDO is fun already, with more decision-making and ressource management it will even be more fun.
Forcing players to make decisions and manage their ressources also keeps a game more interessting, than a "i don't need to pay attention"-mentality-gameplay
quests that do not challenge me in my skills of playing, my knowledge of the game/quest, my ressource management and my decision-making are boring to me.

comming to my last point of this:
other store items are banned aswell. spirit-cakes, eladrin rest statuette and ehtereal rest shrines are not available in raids already.
to complete the anti-extra-rest/regeneration banning store-sp-pots will be a wise decision.
also the goldseal healing potions should be treated that way (would make a few collectibles more valueable too, since you can turn them in for standard healing elixiers)


the only negative point that is comming to mind is, that raids might fail, due to unprepared players or a lack of ressources.
this is no major issue imo though.

so far,
- Lana



TL;DR:

+ less pay2win!
+ raids more about communication, knowledge, ressource management, decision-making than about who paid to succeed
+ ingame major sp potions become more valueable / boost to plat-economy / plat is more worth again
+ people need a good ressource management to succeed
+ also people will be forced to decision-making, what is important to keep a game interessting (its boring if there is no challenge)
+ spirit-cakes, Rest of the Eladrin Statuette and Ethereal Rest Shrine Statuette are not available too.

- raids fail due to a lack of ressources /unprepared players

One of things I loved back in the day were "specific" raid requirements on lfm. Some would be like naked raid, meaning no armor. Or silver flame club raids, only using that club. Or caster only raids, even cleric only raids. What I would love to see is you keeping how you think fun and start posting "no ddo-store bought sp pot" raids. The fun starts with you.

[Scrabbler]

One Wizard in the raid for buffs, no range characters whatsoever and just surround and beat down everything with melee?
Hey now, there was 1 ranged Ranger included to shoot the Titan pillars!


You're actually complaining about a really separate part of game design. You're looking at class balance, which indeed had problems including Wizards and ranged damage. That's a different question from how endgame content progression worked. The problems with Wizards and ranged damage existed whether your character was endgame or not.

[HernandoCortez]

/nope.

Sorry.

[Angelic-council]

I have to admit that I do buy SP potions, last time I bought 100s of them when they were on sale. It's all started when I realized how easily those normal potions break.. I used to farm those, and I broke over 50s normal major pots in a month. Duh.. They should introduce special box or something: where you can store your potions in order to prevent it from breaking... just like there is the one for hires, cakes.

[Eth]

There has never been more variety in class selection by players then there is right now,

Of course we need balance but the old way was no better.

This.
I really like the way the recent raids are in their endfights.
Never understood what people found so awesome about fights in raids like shroud.
It was just a DPS check and a check if your healer can press some buttons in the right order.

[Lanadazia]

You keep saying "casters".
Why's that ? If you run out of sp on a melee or eat an Inferno because your own mistake, you won't drink a pot ? Or you would just keep playing without sp hoping someone else would spend their sp ( and those pay to win pots ) to heal / raise you ?


well i was talking about classic casters in general for the most part. ofc melees with proper selfhealing may face sp issues due to a way lower sp-pool than a classic caster, hence they have to drink sp pots too, if they have no other sp regeneration items
and i do not expect others to use store pots so that i don't have to


DDO, a complex game with a mature intelligent playerbase (compared to other games) should not rely on cash based cheating.

+1! thats another good reason to eleminate store stuff from raids (at least!)





the number of pots consumed in a raid after the first few weeks in inconsequential.

Turbine needs to put a timer on using them.


True. I remember when we tested epic LoB short after release, that was some very expensive runs. missing knowledge is getting expensive quickly

Also that thing with the timer would be a good solution for this. if it is a cooldown like an apple cider or something.



One of things I loved back in the day were "specific" raid requirements on lfm. Some would be like naked raid, meaning no armor. Or silver flame club raids, only using that club. Or caster only raids, even cleric only raids. What I would love to see is you keeping how you think fun and start posting "no ddo-store bought sp pot" raids. The fun starts with you.

i am not doing naked/club/etc raids right now, but i'm introducing a raid channel for all older raids. like its no naked raid train, but a oldschool or abandoned raid train, like it :)

[Lanadazia]

i don't get why people are getting silly about this
i haven't said anything stupid. maybe my grammer isnt the best, but i made a point.
instead of ridiculing me you could write an actual comment instead of griefing

i wrote this, not because i'm jealous of other players buying storepotions, frankly i don't care what people spend their money on
but if this is affecting my game experience i sure do call it out.
if raids are getting boring because of massive "cheating" (as someone called it earlier) its just less fun to everyone, even the person using the store potions
in a long time view you have to admit, that sp potions and raid bypasses are killing gamefun, since content is losing its value even quicker than it used to

during some oldschool raids it came to my mind, that raids, or ddo in general would be more fun without particular ddo store items. thats why i posted this, and not to be called naive or getting ridiculed

[Hobgoblin]

no thanks.

while there is an issue - this is not a way to fix it.

hob

[DarthCaedus]

i don't get why people are getting silly about this
i haven't said anything stupid. maybe my grammer isnt the best, but i made a point.
instead of ridiculing me you could write an actual comment instead of griefing

i wrote this, not because i'm jealous of other players buying storepotions, frankly i don't care what people spend their money on
but if this is affecting my game experience i sure do call it out.
if raids are getting boring because of massive "cheating" (as someone called it earlier) its just less fun to everyone, even the person using the store potions
in a long time view you have to admit, that sp potions and raid bypasses are killing gamefun, since content is losing its value even quicker than it used to

during some oldschool raids it came to my mind, that raids, or ddo in general would be more fun without particular ddo store items. thats why i posted this, and not to be called naive or getting ridiculed

I am not ridiculing you here, but I think the absolute worst post in this thread is the very first one. Potions aren't killing game fun, players are. You can always post an LFM for a raid that says "No store pots" rather than trying to force it on everyone else.

[FlaviusMaximus]

*edit

Nevermind. I don't care enough to be snarky.

[Llewndyn]

Howdy!
First of all, i know this topic might get some attention and draw some player-aggro on me. (fine with that)

Last few days i've been raiding and had an idea. Right now are SP-Potions on sale, what made me writing this:
Bann DDO-Store SP-Potions from Raids.

Here are my thoughts on it:

If only the ingame SP-Potions would be allowed in Raids, the biggest pay2win in this game would - at least in raids - be eliminated
A raid should be about good communication, timing, how well the players know the raid, the skill-level of the players and good decision making. NOT about who paid the most, to succeed.

Casters are quite powerful, hence limited in their actions through their SP -Pool. If a raid can get completed should not be decided on how many pots a healer can drink, but on the raid-party.
if people don't manage their ressources during a raid, they should be "punished" for it. rather in form to spent plat/ drink ingame-sp-potions, or in failing the raid.

This way, ingame-SP-potions will become more valueable. This will also boost the somewhat dead plat-economy on the live-servers and making plat more worth again.
People will have to make more decisions. Take the guildrenown, the commendations, the heart seeds or loot for plat?
Some of you might think now, that this was a minor decision, but in the end its about ressource management.

With store-pots ddo is just not as good, as it could be without. mana-regeneration is something i really do not like in other games, cause i like to have to manage ressources.
so if people in ddo have to manage their sp, it will be more challenging, will have more meaningful decision-making and therefore be more fun.
in addition, items that restore SP are getting more value aswell. If its the Bauble from 'Weapon Shipment' or the Vile Blasphemy from 'Ascension Chamber'
this way some unpopular quests/packs might get some more attention too.

DDO is fun already, with more decision-making and ressource management it will even be more fun.
Forcing players to make decisions and manage their ressources also keeps a game more interessting, than a "i don't need to pay attention"-mentality-gameplay
quests that do not challenge me in my skills of playing, my knowledge of the game/quest, my ressource management and my decision-making are boring to me.

comming to my last point of this:
other store items are banned aswell. spirit-cakes, eladrin rest statuette and ehtereal rest shrines are not available in raids already.
to complete the anti-extra-rest/regeneration banning store-sp-pots will be a wise decision.
also the goldseal healing potions should be treated that way (would make a few collectibles more valueable too, since you can turn them in for standard healing elixiers)


the only negative point that is comming to mind is, that raids might fail, due to unprepared players or a lack of ressources.
this is no major issue imo though.

so far,
- Lana



TL;DR:

+ less pay2win!
+ raids more about communication, knowledge, ressource management, decision-making than about who paid to succeed
+ ingame major sp potions become more valueable / boost to plat-economy / plat is more worth again
+ people need a good ressource management to succeed
+ also people will be forced to decision-making, what is important to keep a game interessting (its boring if there is no challenge)
+ spirit-cakes, Rest of the Eladrin Statuette and Ethereal Rest Shrine Statuette are not available too.

- raids fail due to a lack of ressources /unprepared players

No store bought SP pots would increase AH bought potion duping. It would increase tornados. Also no one communicates in raids anymore, we all collectively agreed to not do that anymore back in 2012. P2W is orders of magnitude. You P2W when you get those tomes. Why can't you put up a "No Store bought SP pots" LFM and be done with it? Also by doing that, if I run out of SP in a raid, I'm not wasting limited potions, I'm piking. In all but one of the Thunder Peak raids I've been in, that would spell defeat as us arcanes are what kept the group from being inundated. I don't want to sound rude, but you all aren't Mnemonic-worthy. I'll chug one if I'm soloing or running with a guildy, but if I run out of SP it's because I'm doing the lion's share of the work, whether that realistically what's going on or what I perceive.

Why should just casters be punished? How about for every weapon miss melees have to make another roll to see if they break their weapon? That would "punish" melees for missing a 12 foot tall beer belly dragon who doesn't move?

And semi-finally, no more store potions will only make arcanes/ divines hoard the precious few potions they already have, and we'll see the 500k plat regular mnemonics on the AH again never getting sold.

NTY. Contrary to the snarkiness of the rest of my post it's a good suggestion, I just don't think it has a chance of being implemented in a positive fashion.