Inferno of the Damned...why?

[Powskier]

i read wiki on this silly quest twice now and I dont think Ill ever run it. Looks like a very specific path to take ,or wasted run pretty much? Need cold/fire spells,***reak? ...he haw no solo run thru then for non casters(shouldnt fire /or cold arrow work?) A challenging maze for sure-or tricky wiki run,but it shouldn't be on a raid list. Players like options and quests like this give the opposite.

[depositbox]

Need cold/fire spells,***reak? ...he haw no solo run thru then for non casters(shouldnt fire /or cold arrow work?)

You use fire or wind type monsters to light them for you. Theyre in the dungeon. In the parts of the element required. I cant even...

[Archangel666]

i read wiki on this silly quest twice now and I dont think Ill ever run it. Looks like a very specific path to take ,or wasted run pretty much? Need cold/fire spells,***reak? ...he haw no solo run thru then for non casters(shouldnt fire /or cold arrow work?) A challenging maze for sure-or tricky wiki run,but it shouldn't be on a raid list. Players like options and quests like this give the opposite.

Just so you know, while Fireball and Ice Storm can make the quest faster, the quest provides everything you need to light and put out the torches.

There are Mephits that spawn. Agro them to the torches and they use Burning Hands like effects and Cone of Cold like effects, this will deal with the torches.

[Koshei]

There is a specific path only if you want to be most efficient. But you can do it in any order you like.

There are 4 sides - east, west, south north. Once you light the 4 torches on one of the sides (lets say north) you can cross to the fire plane and put them out, a creature appears and you kill it. Do that in all 4 sides - north, south, east, west and the main guy spawns in the center. You kill it and win.

You can do the sides in any order, take all the time you need, and you can't fail the quest by doing or not doing something.

There is an optional chest you might not get and a shrine you might not visit if you kill a creature not in the right way but it does not effect the quest or xp at all.

As for how to light and put out torches - as people mentioned there are respawning mephits that will do it for you. Bringing in other sources makes quest easier and faster, but its not needed.

If you do want to make it easier - scrolls and wands of fireball and ice storm are very easy to umd (you don't need 100% success rate iether), there are also cookies for both and clickies for both. Monks can do it to i think with fire finishers. And there are hierlings.


And if really lazy and not willing to bother doing the quest your self, join a group that has a person who knows the quest in it, get quest done in 15 minutes, get 40k or so xp and be happy.
This isn't titan flaging after all.

[Kawai]

its fun.
don't do it, lose out @participation & lootz.
*shrug

-wake meh when this thread reaches epic

[EllisDee37]

Need cold/fire spells,***reak? ...he haw no solo run thru then for non castersThis is one of countless reasons why UMD is a nice skill to have. You can buy fireball scrolls from the portable hole and ice storm wands from the twelve to handle lighting and putting out the torches.

[Powskier]

ahh ..the monk fire skill finisher...ty & like the low lvl scroll idea ...both not mentioned in wiki

[Powskier]

its fun.
don't do it, lose out @participation & lootz.
*shrug

-wake meh when this thread reaches epic

I doubt you'll get woke...I was guessing some ideas would pop up to solve the lighting & decent ones allready;thx again.....i dont really wana kite enemies around ,so that was off my option list from start

[Powskier]

[/QUOTE]

>>oh ? can I get the shield frag from a chest if I run out of order? wiki suggests the number path to get the fragment

[axel15810]

Yep, I hate this quest. It's one of those where if you don't know what you're doing and you don't use a map you're sure to spend hours in there trying to figure it out...and probably quit in frustration before you do. Getting to completion is not intuitive at all, you need a map. Here's one -

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/226244-Inferno-of-the-Damned-Quick-Guide

The earth elementals and other casters spam AoE fire spells so it's easy to light the fire torches if you don't have a fire spell.

However, blowing out the cold candles is a serious pain if you don't have a party member who can cast a cold spell or UMD/cookie it. You have to rely on air elementals to cast gust of wind. And they are stupid and it takes forever to get them to cast gust of wind in the exact right angle you need it in order to blow out of the candle. The devs should tweak the monsters in this quest so that there is some kind of cold spell caster in there that spams some kind of cold AoE.

[FlaviusMaximus]

I get really impatient running it on Heroic if I forget to pack Ice Storm and Fireball scrolls, but on Epic they added a lot of creatures that will light up the torches much more efficiently than the Mephits do on Heroic.

Either way, pack the scrolls and the quest goes really quickly. Doesn't take any longer than the other Orchard quests if you get the path down.

[bartharok]

Yep, I hate this quest. It's one of those where if you don't know what you're doing and you don't use a map you're sure to spend hours in there trying to figure it out...and probably quit in frustration before you do. Getting to completion is not intuitive at all, you need a map. Here's one -

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/226244-Inferno-of-the-Damned-Quick-Guide

The earth elementals and other casters spam AoE fire spells so it's easy to light the fire torches if you don't have a fire spell.

However, blowing out the cold candles is a serious pain if you don't have a party member who can cast a cold spell or UMD/cookie it. You have to rely on air elementals to cast gust of wind. And they are stupid and it takes forever to get them to cast gust of wind in the exact right angle you need it in order to blow out of the candle. The devs should tweak the monsters in this quest so that there is some kind of cold spell caster in there that spams some kind of cold AoE.

Just stand on top of the torch.

[zwiebelring]

i read wiki on this silly quest twice now and I dont think Ill ever run it. Looks like a very specific path to take ,or wasted run pretty much? Need cold/fire spells,***reak? ...he haw no solo run thru then for non casters(shouldnt fire /or cold arrow work?) A challenging maze for sure-or tricky wiki run,but it shouldn't be on a raid list. Players like options and quests like this give the opposite.

This is one of the best quests in DDO. You certainly can solo it but that takes you significantly longer than in a properly set up group, or with someone, who got fire and ice spells prepared. Still, you are not forced to do it in a group. But in any way, the maze is something, no one can take from you. Either learn it or leave it. It's not rocket science. The guide on the Wiki is more anyone with bad memory can ask for.

I am glad they did not crucible the questchain in the orchard. Only thing to improve it was to remove the sigil pieces. Because forced repetition sucks on that regard. And yes, enforced rare encounter hunt does as well.

[Lonnbeimnech]

This is one of those quests where it can take ages if you don't know it, but once you've learned it, can be zerged in 7 or 8 min. Much like through a mirror darkly, or haunted halls.

[stoerm]

I used to hate this quest because of the path, but once I memorized it it's been fun.

The following mnemonics help me remember it:
1) Go clockwise
2) Start by going west to the acolyte, then south
3) South and East torches are done "out of order"

After that it just takes care of itself.

In detail:
1) light south
2) light and extinguish west
4) light and extinguish north
5) light east
6) extinguish south
7) extinguish east

I'm usually too lazy to equip fire/cold so I just use mephits (heroic) or elementals (epic).

[Alternative]

You know, the time you spend complaining could be better used to learning the dungeon on norm. Consider that option, what we don't need are stupid quests where you just go forward on a flat road an kill hp bags. Inferno is one of those rare fun quests.

[redoubt]

The specific path is the metagame answer. You don't have to do it, its just easier that way.

The optional chest requires you to do two rooms correctly to open the doors.

I've solo'd this quest on heroic on rangers and rogues as well as casters (that's really all I play). I've solo'd it on epic on a sorc and a druid (all I've tried so far.) So there are non arcane options. I see you have talked about the umd and scrolls already, so that is usually a very good way. In a pinch I've used the kite mob way. Jump onto the torch for good results. (I like groups better, but I talked about solo because you seemed concerned about it.)

Learn the relationship between the mobs on both sides and you will find ways to make it easier for yourself. I'll tell if you like, but didn't know if you want that level of spoiler.

[viktorserak]

I am honestly not sure, so help me out:

Is OP the same person that considers Let Sleepong Dust Lie extremely difficult and unfun?

Because if so, then I am seeing patern.

I like quests that are different and offer several choices on how to approach them, Both Inferno and Dust do exactly that.

If you want another hack and slash via sewer/forest/who cares what quest, then I reaaaaaly hope that no dev will listen to you. I like quests with something extra :-)

[Blackheartox]

I am honestly not sure, so help me out:

Is OP the same person that considers Let Sleepong Dust Lie extremely difficult and unfun?

Because if so, then I am seeing patern.

I like quests that are different and offer several choices on how to approach them, Both Inferno and Dust do exactly that.

If you want another hack and slash via sewer/forest/who cares what quest, then I reaaaaaly hope that no dev will listen to you. I like quests with something extra :-)

I agree, more complicated quests is what ddo needs.
Like good old titans prereraid, or raid, or in that regard and quest in that pack ;)
Monastery of scorp, enter the kobold, even somehwat other 2, we need quests that require you to use more then just couple fingers, isnt that the point of D&D?
Challenge yourself mentally while having fun roleplaying your character?

[Gizeh]

You know, the time you spend complaining could be better used to learning the dungeon on norm. Consider that option, what we don't need are stupid quests where you just go forward on a flat road an kill hp bags. Inferno is one of those rare fun quests.

This. Some people really enjoy quests which require some thought and strategy (and learning on the first runs), like Inferno, the Pit, and Crucible. There are already more than enough quests in the newer releases that consist of little more than "run from start to finish and kill everything you encounter on the way".

[viktorserak]

I agree, more complicated quests is what ddo needs.
Like good old titans prereraid, or raid, or in that regard and quest in that pack ;)
Monastery of scorp, enter the kobold, even somehwat other 2, we need quests that require you to use more then just couple fingers, isnt that the point of D&D?
Challenge yourself mentally while having fun roleplaying your character?

I completely agree with you.
May be the reason why I always enjoyed running with ya.

Ah,,, 20 more days till my DDO break is over...

[LordKalkin]

ahh ..the monk fire skill finisher...ty & like the low lvl scroll idea ...both not mentioned in wiki
They nerfed the fire fire fire finisher in there, it doesn't light the torches anymore.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I pressed the attack button over a million times and I still couldn't complete this quest.

This is why people hate this game.

[walkin_dude]

To the OP:

So just don't run it. There are plenty of other quests, so there's no need to mess up one that is a little different and that obviously a considerable portion of us likes.

Disclaimer: I don't know it well enough by far, yet, but it is a challenge and fun (imo).

[Lonnbeimnech]

I pressed the attack button over a million times and I still couldn't complete this quest.

This is why people hate this game.

Dude, you have to walk forward while clicking the attack button.

[viktorserak]

Dude, you have to walk forward while clicking the attack button.

Sounds too complicated. can you crucible it?

[Glascanon]

Dude, you have to walk forward while clicking the attack button.

But that cant be his own fault! The devs need to fix that!
It just cant be that u have not completed a quest after hitting the Attack Button xTimes!
I mean he clicked a Button over and over! That is a lot of work witch should be rewarded!
Its not that he just toggled the auto Attack stance!

It cant be that u have to do 2 things at the same time clicking and running to finish a quest!

[Lonnbeimnech]

Sounds too complicated. can you crucible it?

What I do is hit auto-run, then put a rubber band around the left mouse button. I must have been an engineer in a past life or something.

[Blackheartox]

What I do is hit auto-run, then put a rubber band around the left mouse button. I must have been an engineer in a past life or something.

Mind if i hijack your idea and put it in some thread named: "help with questing for newbs" ?

I promise il name you as the inital creator of this amazing tactic ;)

[BigErkyKid]

What I dislike about the quest is that there are no hints in it as for what should be the route to take to complete efficiently. It is just a matter of knowing.

Too many things in this game are completely obscure and just depend on repetion. Using your brain should be rewarded too.

[walkin_dude]

What I dislike about the quest is that there are no hints in it as for what should be the route to take to complete efficiently. It is just a matter of knowing.

Too many things in this game are completely obscure and just depend on repetion. Using your brain should be rewarded too.

Probably, whomever originally created the place (lore-wise, not dev-wise) didn't take efficiency into account. I'd say it's the player's job to use the clues that are there to complete, then figure out how to increase the efficiency part.

[BigErkyKid]

Probably, whomever originally created the place (lore-wise, not dev-wise) didn't take efficiency into account. I'd say it's the player's job to use the clues that are there to complete, then figure out how to increase the efficiency part.

The only way to figure out how to do it fast is repetition.

It is not like there are certain patterns you can discover that would put you in the right path.

This is what I am complaining about. Dungeon crawling should be about paying attention to the tips your environment is giving you and those who do should be rewarded over those who just charge ahead. This is what design should be anout.

However, in DDO this has been substituted by repetition. Most of the tricks to make a quest easier come from metagaming, not from being an perceptive adventurer. It doesn't reward any of the qualities that make a good adventurer or that could make the game challenging and fun. What it rewards the most is the stomach to repeat and memorize a million times static content.

[walkin_dude]

The only way to figure out how to do it fast is repetition.

I think if these adventurers were real people, their primary concern would be living through it. They wouldn't be repeating the experience (at least, my characters in pnp never did). XP/minute is an artificial thing created by MMO players. I would prefer for the developers to create an immersive experience that feels like an adventure (Haunted Halls is a good example). Couldn't care less about XP/min. I realize that is my own preference, and I don't have any interest in making anyone else do it "my way," but I'm also not interested in having soloist XP/min attitude foisted onto myself, either.

So again, most of the quests are just as you requested. You can easily figure out the best XP/min way to do it. There are a select few that a little different, and it seems like as much a minority as those are, it should be okay.

[BigErkyKid]

I think if these adventurers were real people, their primary concern would be living through it. They wouldn't be repeating the experience (at least, my characters in pnp never did). XP/minute is an artificial thing created by MMO players. I would prefer for the developers to create an immersive experience that feels like an adventure (Haunted Halls is a good example). Couldn't care less about XP/min. I realize that is my own preference, and I don't have any interest in making anyone else do it "my way," but I'm also not interested in having soloist XP/min attitude foisted onto myself, either.

So again, most of the quests are just as you requested. You can easily figure out the best XP/min way to do it. There are a select few that a little different, and it seems like as much a minority as those are, it should be okay.

For me it is not about xp/min. It is about create an immersive environment. Immersion comes from rewarding paying attention the the clues the quest is giving you, IMO. Surprises are OK, but there should be tips and signs for the adventurer that looks for them and those should lead to higher rewards. Strategy, side from metagaming, should pay off.

Most quest are NOT like that. They are either very easy (sort of a corridor you just follow and kill everything on your way) or convoluted but do not necessarily reward playing smart beyond the repetition aspect. Inferno is one of the latter.

[stoerm]

OP: Do you run raids? Do you enjoy them?

[walkin_dude]

For me it is not about xp/min. It is about create an immersive environment. Immersion comes from rewarding paying attention the the clues the quest is giving you, IMO. Surprises are OK, but there should be tips and signs for the adventurer that looks for them and those should lead to higher rewards. Strategy, side from metagaming, should pay off.

Most quest are NOT like that. They are either very easy (sort of a corridor you just follow and kill everything on your way) or convoluted but do not necessarily reward playing smart beyond the repetition aspect. Inferno is one of the latter.

From a lore perspective, what sort of clues would you expect to see in the inferno quest that could point out the most efficient way? The DM already tells you when you have to light or put out torches, which is more than you'd know just by walking into the place. I'm just not sure what extra clues would do what you requested while also increasing immersion.

[Blackheartox]

From a lore perspective, what sort of clues would you expect to see in the inferno quest that could point out the most efficient way? The DM already tells you when you have to light or put out torches, which is more than you'd know just by walking into the place. I'm just not sure what extra clues would do what you requested while also increasing immersion.

Arrows on the floor that say: THIS DIRECTION PLEASE, at torches: LIT ME PLEASE.. UNLIT ME PLEASE..

I assume he wants things like that

[BigErkyKid]

From a lore perspective, what sort of clues would you expect to see in the inferno quest that could point out the most efficient way? The DM already tells you when you have to light or put out torches, which is more than you'd know just by walking into the place. I'm just not sure what extra clues would do what you requested while also increasing immersion.

It depends on the lore. Why are the mobs in the instance, what is their goal?

For instance, the mobs in inferno could be acolytes and spawns that simply follow Cinnis as a cult.

The portals could be the connections they have opened with another world to bring these creatures that representations of their idol.

The different spawns could be avatars of Cinnis.

In the quest what we should see is a temple to Cinnis or whatever it represents.

There should be chappels (or adoration centers) and also the facilities of a temple. Storage, bedrooms, etc. In the chappels we should see the altars.

Chappels should be recognizable because they are more decorated somehow (depending on the theme) and because they are placed in a place that makes sense as an structure of a temple. For instance, not behind the storage room.

And so on.

This is how I would design those quests. Everything needs to fit a concept and make sense. Mobs are not there hanging out for no reason waiting for the adventurers to kill them. They are there performing some tasks and understanding those should pay of and lead to better decisions on behalf of the adventurer. I don't have these feeling in DDO.

[BigErkyKid]

Arrows on the floor that say: THIS DIRECTION PLEASE, at torches: LIT ME PLEASE.. UNLIT ME PLEASE..

I assume he wants things like that

try harder, not even funny.

[Blackheartox]

try harder, not even funny.

I dont even need to try.
That quest first time for new player offers a challenging adventure.
You are put into a maze like quest that requires exploring which is main point of D&D games.
A proper dungeon master does not tell you, ok pick up that stick put it onto that statue and turn it clockwise 3 times.
He will tell you: You enter a room, its dark, tehre is a statue and a stick on the ground.
What do you do?


I mean, ddo is alrdy so simple and easy and only a couple few quests are fun and interesting with mazes and puzzles in the whole game first time you do them.
What do you want from inferno?
A dm to navigate you where to run?
At what speed to run?
I mean, get real.

[BigErkyKid]

I dont even need to try.
That quest first time for new player offers a challenging adventure.
You are put into a maze like quest that requires exploring which is main point of D&D games.
A proper dungeon master does not tell you, ok pick up that stick put it onto that statue and turn it clockwise 3 times.
He will tell you: You enter a room, its dark, tehre is a statue and a stick on the ground.
What do you do?


I mean, ddo is alrdy so simple and easy and only a couple few quests are fun and interesting with mazes and puzzles in the whole game first time you do them.
What do you want from inferno?
A dm to navigate you where to run?
At what speed to run?
I mean, get real.

I already said what I wanted if you bothered to read it. I want quests that make sense and reward skills an adventurer would be rewarded for besides swinging the big bad axe.

[Blackheartox]

I already said what I wanted if you bothered to read it. I want quests that make sense and reward skills an adventurer would be rewarded for besides swinging the big bad axe.

Then what is bad with inferno?
You dont just swing the axe, you explore how to lit the torches.
You need some brain to use mephits for that purpose.


Complain about quests like vol for example or fleshmaker or ghost since those are braindead swingaxe autorun without sense of direction ones.

[viktorserak]

I dont even need to try.
That quest first time for new player offers a challenging adventure.
You are put into a maze like quest that requires exploring which is main point of D&D games.
A proper dungeon master does not tell you, ok pick up that stick put it onto that statue and turn it clockwise 3 times.
He will tell you: You enter a room, its dark, tehre is a statue and a stick on the ground.
What do you do?


I mean, ddo is alrdy so simple and easy and only a couple few quests are fun and interesting with mazes and puzzles in the whole game first time you do them.
What do you want from inferno?
A dm to navigate you where to run?
At what speed to run?
I mean, get real.

I agree. Most quests are like the pre-Wheelon f2p quests: Kill stuff. Kill specific stuff. Pull lever/activate this or that. Avoid or eat trap. Kill boss. (after some more repetition).

Minority of quests demand thinking and allow nonlinear aproach, or simply are so different (Tomb of the tormented) or chalenging, that they are fun even after first three runs. I am glad for those. If you really hate these and, to quote OP: will never complete them... either avoid them (you will still have like 90% of this game available) or try or find an easier game? Hellgate London was pretty easy last I remember..

[Therrias]

It turns out that outspoken does not equal relevant.

[phillymiket]

90% of the quests in this game and 99.99% of quests in most games are linear.

Run along the only path provided and slay the monsters indicated to win.

This quest provides something different.

If you don't like that and want a linear quest then select something else.

Some of us like quests that require some figuring out.

[walkin_dude]

This is how I would design those quests. Everything needs to fit a concept and make sense. Mobs are not there hanging out for no reason waiting for the adventurers to kill them. They are there performing some tasks and understanding those should pay of and lead to better decisions on behalf of the adventurer. I don't have these feeling in DDO.

Well, we know that the places we visit in the game are often much larger than what we see. There are some quests where the barracks or quarters are included, but usually that's because we need to do something in those locations. I generally think that those mundane areas are there but just not amongst the parts of the facility that I'll be seeing. I'm not sure how inclusion of the bedrooms, kitchens, and privies will help me complete the quest with more efficiency, though.

[BigErkyKid]

Then what is bad with inferno?
You dont just swing the axe, you explore how to lit the torches.
You need some brain to use mephits for that purpose.


Complain about quests like vol for example or fleshmaker or ghost since those are braindead swingaxe autorun without sense of direction ones.

The whole quest does not make sense in the way I talked about.

Finding the route is not an exercice of deduction, it is trial and error aided by nothing in the quest.

What is rewarded is repetition and memorization.

Just read my posts before this.

Easy quests are easy and there is nothing much to comment about them. Vol, flesh, all of those are just meh and we know it. However, hard quests (in the sense of inferno) do not reward either what I pointed out.

[walkin_dude]

Easy quests are easy and there is nothing much to comment about them. Vol, flesh, all of those are just meh and we know it. However, hard quests (in the sense of inferno) do not reward either what I pointed out.

No, they just reward people who like to explore and to have a challenge.

[BigErkyKid]

Well, we know that the places we visit in the game are often much larger than what we see. There are some quests where the barracks or quarters are included, but usually that's because we need to do something in those locations. I generally think that those mundane areas are there but just not amongst the parts of the facility that I'll be seeing. I'm not sure how inclusion of the bedrooms, kitchens, and privies will help me complete the quest with more efficiency, though.

It won't make the quest more efficient but more immersive.

Finding the chappel would require logic thinking as opposed to memorization or luck. What you reward is that thinking as opposed of reading the wiki or playing the quest 500 times.

As I said, to build a good quest that rewards lore aided thinking is basically providing an scene that makes sense from a lore perspective and that it presents lore based clues on how to solve it.

Almost no quest in DDO does that.

[BigErkyKid]

No, they just reward people who like to explore and to have a challenge.

It is just exploring blindly. What is the fun of that, how is that immersive.

Hey, you got your opinion, I got mine. I think by now I am just repeating myself.

Unless there is a new point, I just refer you to my previous posts.

[Blackheartox]

The whole quest does not make sense in the way I talked about.

Finding the route is not an exercice of deduction, it is trial and error aided by nothing in the quest.

What is rewarded is repetition and memorization.

Just read my posts before this.

Easy quests are easy and there is nothing much to comment about them. Vol, flesh, all of those are just meh and we know it. However, hard quests (in the sense of inferno) do not reward either what I pointed out.


In that regard nothing in ddo that people consider "hard" is rewarded.
Epic elite is not rewarding, solo epic elite is not rewarding, heck even wgu and ghost on ee arent rewarding.
Only thing you could consider as reward is the little ammount of satisfaction you get when you brag about it in achievments section or to your in game virtual friends.
And that expires after few days.
DDo does not reward skill, memorization nor abilitiy to figure out something new.
Ddo rewards people who buy buncha ottos boxes and exploit.
Thats ddo now, and i will always go back to premotu time /when you prolly werent around/ when ddo was a proper game and not this mess it is now.

I just hope temple will be a nice update, since it has potential to be fun challenging and more then straight out swing axe content.
I hope casuals dont taint that idea as well.

But hope will die out..
After current barb proposal its clear to me that they dont want to stay true to anything that is d&d sadly.
Challenge, exploration, failure, risk and great rewards.

[phillymiket]

Finding the route is not an exercice of deduction, it is trial and error aided by nothing in the quest.

What is rewarded is repetition and memorization

Can't use deduction? Sure you can.
The facts of the case:

- The portals switch you back between regular and inferno side, as do the Acolytes.

- The mobs light the torches or extinguish them (or you can yourself with spells).

- Regular side must be set on fire before inferno side can be extinguished.

- Extinguishing inferno side spawn a cinder spawn.

- Kill the four cinder spawns to pop the boss.

- Profit.

With those facts, which can be easily gleaned, you can solve the mystery.

Just like Scooby Doo.

[BigErkyKid]

Can't use deduction? Sure you can.
The facts of the case:

- The portals switch you back between regular and inferno side, as do the Acolytes.

- The mobs light the torches or extinguish them (or you can yourself with spells).

- Regular side must be set on fire before inferno side can be extinguished.

- Extinguishing inferno side spawn a cinder spawn.

- Kill the four cinder spawns to pop the boss.

- Profit.

With those facts, which can be easily gleaned, you can solve the mystery.

Just like Scooby Doo.

So? How does this provide clues on the real challenge, which is finding the route to the torches?

[walkin_dude]

Just like Scooby Doo.

Rut roh . . . @_@

[phillymiket]

So? How does this provide clues on the real challenge, which is finding the route to the torches?

Do you want a sparkly path to follow?

[Qhualor]

It won't make the quest more efficient but more immersive.

Finding the chappel would require logic thinking as opposed to memorization or luck. What you reward is that thinking as opposed of reading the wiki or playing the quest 500 times.

As I said, to build a good quest that rewards lore aided thinking is basically providing an scene that makes sense from a lore perspective and that it presents lore based clues on how to solve it.

Almost no quest in DDO does that.

Lore is easily crucibled when people complain about challenging quest mechanics.

[walkin_dude]

So? How does this provide clues on the real challenge, which is finding the route to the torches?

You experiment with the portals? That seems like the reasonable thing. You can fiddle with them pretty much all you like without messing up the quest or anything. The bit that is totally meta-knowledge-only is the acolytes, but you might be able to figure the second one out after you encounter the first one.

That's the thing about adventuring parties: they don't generally know what is going to happen once they pass the entrance into the dungeon.

DDO quests are usually much more exciting and suspenseful the first couple of times, then much more rewarding (fiscally and in terms of XP) once you have meta-knowledge. This also seems reasonable.

[BigErkyKid]

Do you want a sparkly path to follow?

not even funny, welcome to my ignore list

[phillymiket]

not even funny, welcome to my ignore list

Ouch.

:-(

No reason to get all bent outta shape dude.

Peace my brother.

It's a reasonable question.

You indicated you wanted some means to guide you to the torches.

Other games solve this with a sparkly path or whatever. DDO does not. You have to figure it out.

I'm simply asking, do you prefer the path laid out before you?

Many do, it seems. I do not.

Sorry I offended you.

[Blackheartox]

I still remember the hardcore old games, where you read a journal and it says, fire burns 5 steps away from my soul.

Now thats the whole clue you get.
How would you know that you need to find a soul extract and go into the house of the journal owners, go to fireplace walk 5 steps from it and use soulextract to land in a dream world where you need to figure out how to free him...

In those old days, there were no walkthrough sites, we players figured those things out since it seems we were more creative.
And the game makers were more creative.
Worst off is a player who grew up in that enviorment who tries to seek challenge nowadays.
Tho i must agree divinity original sin is a wonderful game.


I liked quests dmasters could throw at you when they would sidetrack a bit or gamewise, baldurs gate and torment had amazing quests.

[BigErkyKid]

You experiment with the portals? That seems like the reasonable thing. You can fiddle with them pretty much all you like without messing up the quest or anything. The bit that is totally meta-knowledge-only is the acolytes, but you might be able to figure the second one out after you encounter the first one.

That's the thing about adventuring parties: they don't generally know what is going to happen once they pass the entrance into the dungeon.

DDO quests are usually much more exciting and suspenseful the first couple of times, then much more rewarding (fiscally and in terms of XP) once you have meta-knowledge. This also seems reasonable.

They don't know, but using their brains should aide them in accomplishing the objective. You need to reward playing smart within the dungeon and for the sake of immersion for me playing smart should be to be able to identify and interpret lore based clues.

Inferno provides nothing like that.

You like how quests are done in DDO? More power to you.

I personally dislike a few things:

1. They are build to be fun the first time but have very little replay value. Quests should be crafted to be fun the 10th time, not only the first.

2. Lore plays close to no role in the solution of the quests.

3. They are mostly linear and have a unique solution.

4. For 99% of them, all is needed is DPS and self healing.

I am not going to keep discussing "likes and dislikes" with you because it is like arguing over our fav color. You like blue, I like yellow. So?

[BigErkyKid]

I still remember the hardcore old games, where you read a journal and it says, fire burns 5 steps away from my soul.

Now thats the whole clue you get.
How would you know that you need to find a soul extract and go into the house of the journal owners, go to fireplace walk 5 steps from it and use soulextract to land in a dream world where you need to figure out how to free him...


I liked quests dmasters could throw at you when they would sidetrack a bit or gamewise, baldurs gate and torment had amazing quests.

Don't get me started on baldur's. Step in a storage room in a random tavern of the city. Find a secret door that leads to a the tomb of a liche that can easily wipe the party. Get an uber sword from that liche (if you manage to kill it). That's fun and rewarding exploration. Not all taverns had that...

What are cities in DDO and wilderness areas? Colorfull blobs. For the most part, you cannot get into any of the buildings. They make close to no sense from the perspective of a real city. You don't feel like you are in a living world that you shape. You feel you are in a cardboard scenary that is there simply to give you the illusion of immersion.

[Blackheartox]

They don't know, but using their brains should aide them in accomplishing the objective. You need to reward playing smart within the dungeon and for the sake of immersion for me playing smart should be to be able to identify and interpret lore based clues.

Inferno provides nothing like that.

You like how quests are done in DDO? More power to you.

I personally dislike a few things:

1. They are build to be fun the first time but have very little replay value. Quests should be crafted to be fun the 10th time, not only the first.

2. Lore plays close to no role in the solution of the quests.

3. They are mostly linear and have a unique solution.

4. For 99% of them, all is needed is DPS and self healing.

I am not going to keep discussing "likes and dislikes" with you because it is like arguing over our fav color. You like blue, I like yellow. So?


Did you ever complete titans preraid and raid at level?

Just asking since its different and not only dps/selfheal ;)

[Powskier]

I am honestly not sure, so help me out:

Is OP the same person that considers Let Sleepong Dust Lie extremely difficult and unfun?

Because if so, then I am seeing patern.

I like quests that are different and offer several choices on how to approach them, Both Inferno and Dust do exactly that.

If you want another hack and slash via sewer/forest/who cares what quest, then I reaaaaaly hope that no dev will listen to you. I like quests with something extra :-)

inferno dosent give options..do it in order or spend forever in there...and where did I mention sleeping dust? please dont reply if you are goin to misquote me

[BigErkyKid]

Did you ever complete titans preraid and raid at level?

Just asking since its different and not only dps/selfheal ;)

Like any of that matters anymore... ;P

[phillymiket]

inferno dosent give options..do it in order or spend forever in there

It's a maze type quest ;-)

That's kinda the deal with those quests.

They take awhile if you are figuring them out for the first time.

Each run gets faster as you learn.

Or use the knowledge of others before you via an on-line guide.

I poked around in there my first solo run many moons ago.

Yes, it took a while.
Yes, i missed the chest that drops the (once rare and valuable) shield piece.
Yes, i backtracked and said "***?" to myself a few times.
But I solved and didn't open the DDOWiki to do so,

Because - for that run - the solving was the fun challenge, not the killing or the looting.

Now that I've done that I just speed run the same path everyone else takes (refreshing my memory with a map before hand)

But, I enjoyed that figuring out run and enjoy the memory of having done it.

If it wasn't hard, I wouldn't have had that experience.

[Powskier]

this is silly...players say they like this quest? prove you really figured it out w/o wiki or shut thy blowholes...I wager 1% of players may have done inferno w/o wiki at most. To say this is a thinkers quest is total B S ,it is a wiki read as yogo ,players just follow the numbers ,#wow u can read.

[viktorserak]

inferno dosent give options..do it in order or spend forever in there...and where did I mention sleeping dust? please dont reply if you are goin to misquote me

Inferno gives a LOT of options, compared to most quests. As always, there is, ofc, the most efficient way which is only one of these options. If XP/min efficiency is your concern, then, well, feel free to ignore all other options. Doesnt change anything about the fact that they are there...

As for sleeping dust: I remember a relatively huge topic about that quest and OP of that topic was mentioning how awful and bad the quest is et cetera. I kind of think it was you (as you are using the same style as OP - including the "I will never finish it cause it sucks mentality" ) and if yes, then I can see a patern: You dislike quests that demands thinking.
If not, well, feel free to ignore me mentioning it. As I said, I am not sure if it was your topic, but the mentality shown by OP in that topic and the mentality shown by you here strucks me as similar.

[viktorserak]

this is silly...players say they like this quest? prove you really figured it out w/o wiki or shut thy blowholes...I wager 1% of players may have done inferno w/o wiki at most. To say this is a thinkers quest is total B S ,it is a wiki read as yogo ,players just follow the numbers ,#wow u can read.

Yep, finished it without wiki on first try.

It did take about an hour, but I had fun.

Then again, my first HH run took me about 4 hours. (I did EVERYTHING).

I guess I can call myself onepercenter from now on :-D

[Powskier]

so,why are there quests like inferno paint by number? there should be some hints or messages to the pattern ,hidden or whatever...giving us an RPG feel for a quest like this. But no , it is a trial and error system?...or follow the wiklol. I figured haywire wheels without wiki 1st time ,only to discover i didnt have jump to get out the shaft...well over an hour wasted gives newcomers a real kick in the groin.

[phillymiket]

this is silly...players say they like this quest? prove you really figured it out w/o wiki or shut thy blowholes..

Step into my Tardis.

Don't worry, it's larger on the inside.

I can't prove I personally solved anything.

But i can prove someone solved without the wiki.

That person would be the one who wrote the wiki guide.

Someone solved every single quest for the first time.

Someone figured out the Crucible maze without any help.

Someone figured out what to do with the voice and ring in Von 5 on their own.

Someone did everything own their own at some point.

True story.

/tips wine glass

[viktorserak]

Step into my Tardis.

Don't worry, it's larger on the inside.

I can't prove I personally solved anything.

But i can prove someone solved without the wiki.

That person would be the one who wrote the wiki guide.

Someone solved every single quest for the first time.

Someone figured out the Crucible maze without any help.

Someone figured out what to do with the voice and ring in Von 5 on their own.

Someone did everything own their own at some point.

True story.

/tips wine glass

+1

[Blackheartox]

Step into my Tardis.

Don't worry, it's larger on the inside.

I can't prove I personally solved anything.

But i can prove someone solved without the wiki.

That person would be the one who wrote the wiki guide.

Someone solved every single quest for the first time.

Someone figured out the Crucible maze without any help.

Someone figured out what to do with the voice and ring in Von 5 on their own.

Someone did everything own their own at some point.

True story.

/tips wine glass

I dont believe you!!!
People actually have the ability to solve a riddle /mystery on their own?
Impossible

[phillymiket]

so,why are there quests like inferno paint by number? there should be some hints or messages to the pattern ,hidden or whatever...giving us an RPG feel for a quest like this. But no , it is a trial and error system?...or follow the wiklol. I figured haywire wheels without wiki 1st time ,only to discover i didnt have jump to get out the shaft...well over an hour wasted gives newcomers a real kick in the groin.

I feel you.

There are quests where you run into dead ends.

There is some trail and error with DDO.

There are Fail Conditions. It's not guaranteed you will complete on your own the first time though something. The possibility of getting lost exists.

I just point out that, even in this game, almost all quests are pretty "lost proof' and in other game all quests without exception are a straight shoot to the boss.

Rather than be too upset there are some exceptions in DDO, celebrate the fact that in addition to the the linear quests you also have some quests that will take some time to parse through, if that's what you are into.

Or just don't run it.

Or run it with a group.

Or use a guide.

There is enough XP in DDO at this stage of the game to pick and choose quests to some degree.

Maybe this one isn't your cup of tea but maybe it's mine

I feel the same way about "The Ruins of Threnal" - I can't stand it - but maybe you like it.

What can you do?

Happy questing to you for all the other quests, though :-)

[Powskier]

As for sleeping dust: I remember a relatively huge topic about that quest and OP of that topic was mentioning how awful and bad the quest is et cetera. I kind of think it was you (as you are using the same style as OP - including the "I will never finish it cause it sucks mentality" ) and if yes, then I can see a patern: You dislike quests that demands thinking.
If not, well, feel free to ignore me mentioning it. As I said, I am not sure if it was your topic, but the mentality shown by OP in that topic and the mentality shown by you here strucks me as similar.

Quit linking me to some other players thread/sleeping dust is fun. I dont see this quest 'inferno' as a thinker...there is a set pattern ... a player either memorizes and recorded the pattern or wiki'd it. If you are of the 1% who figured out the route,Kudos(but really ,it would take tremendous lottery luck to get the shield fragment chest,which is why we'd be in there in the 1st place)surely the most time wasted for me in ddo is in necropolis;between the multiplayer levers to the bugged out rats and the oneeye ,who kills well equipped characters in 2 rounds of combat...This is a linear game ,the only thought required is in character build and battle tactics...we pull levers/lower barriers/open locks; all this "thinking " players claim to be doing to comlete a quest is just pure bull...once we waste an hour or two on so called trial runs,wiki comes out from thereafter and ever since....geez, you think you thought you thought you think .

[Krelar]

there is a set pattern ...

You keep saying this but it's not true.

Sure there is a efficient path to take when soloing but it is not a set pattern you have to follow. (I don't know if anyone has actually analyzed it to see if it is the most efficient path or if it is just a relatively straight forward one.)

When I go in in groups I will frequently break off and go a different way from the rest of the group. We usually get done even faster.

[Powskier]

I agree. Most quests are like the pre-Wheelon f2p quests: Kill stuff. Kill specific stuff. Pull lever/activate this or that. Avoid or eat trap. Kill boss. (after some more repetition).

Minority of quests demand thinking and allow nonlinear aproach, or simply are so different (Tomb of the tormented) or chalenging, that they are fun even after first three runs. I am glad for those. If you really hate these and, to quote OP: will never complete them... either avoid them (you will still have like 90% of this game available) or try or find an easier game? Hellgate London was pretty easy last I remember..

so how is inferno a nonlinear quest? It is as linear as it gets with the number pattern;all you do is kill and run around in the right order or not. What great intuition gave you the torch pattern???also, tormented don't require thinking,just look at the rats and send em the right way. Like there was some eureka moment ,he heh heeh.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Did you ever complete titans preraid and raid at level?

Just asking since its different and not only dps/selfheal ;)

I tried once, but the group insisted on jumping over a wall on the purple side. I wasn't about to use such an obvious exploit, so I dropped group...

[DakFrost]

i read wiki on this silly quest twice now and I dont think Ill ever run it. Looks like a very specific path to take ,or wasted run pretty much? Need cold/fire spells,***reak? ...he haw no solo run thru then for non casters(shouldnt fire /or cold arrow work?) A challenging maze for sure-or tricky wiki run,but it shouldn't be on a raid list. Players like options and quests like this give the opposite.

*Facepalm*

Welcome to DDO.

[DakFrost]

this is silly...players say they like this quest? prove you really figured it out w/o wiki or shut thy blowholes...I wager 1% of players may have done inferno w/o wiki at most. To say this is a thinkers quest is total B S ,it is a wiki read as yogo ,players just follow the numbers ,#wow u can read.

Do you even play the game?

This isn't rocket science here, it's a fairly simple quest. If you can't cast fire/ice, find a caster to help you.

Believe it or not there are a lot of us who learned how to run quests simply by playing them, not having to read the wiki. Shocking!

The level of laziness is ridiculous.

If it's too hard for you, and you can't be bothered to ever read how to do it, then go play something else. You'd probably like Devils Assault.

[Powskier]

doi ,it is obvious to figure out the quest...what I dont like ,is the mandatory multi-player. If it isnt a raid . I shouldn't need to group up for some geek to light /extinguish some lame flame...that is what the ''why'' reference is, in the thread title...like why would I group with snotty players to complete something...more than enough quests in other places ,so why?

[Blackheartox]

doi ,it is obvious to figure out the quest...what I dont like ,is the mandatory multi-player. If it isnt a raid . I shouldn't need to group up for some geek to light /extinguish some lame flame...that is what the ''why'' reference is, in the thread title...like why would I group with snotty players to complete something...more than enough quests in other places ,so why?


By the time you hit lv 16 ANY BUILD EVEN A BARB CAN HIT HIGH ENOUGH UMD TO CAST SCROLLS OR USE WANDS FOR TORCHES.


Sorry for caps, but when i use caps its easier to read for some people.

[Powskier]

By the time you hit lv 16 ANY BUILD EVEN A BARB CAN HIT HIGH ENOUGH UMD TO CAST SCROLLS OR USE WANDS FOR TORCHES.


Sorry for caps, but when i use caps its easier to read for some people.

im tempted to try ,now i know we dont need the shield parts:)(ddo was kinda lame getting that info public;did they just word of mouth it?)...but ,I just looked at the raid items, cr28;not much use for that stuff(how long do we run at lvl28?I dont keep cr 28 items in my bank...feels like a wasted space and lvl24-25 stuff works ok)

[Oxarhamar]

im tempted to try ,now i know we dont need the shield parts:)(ddo was kinda lame getting that info public;did they just word of mouth it?)...but ,I just looked at the raid items, cr28;not much use for that stuff(how long do we run at lvl28?I dont keep cr 28 items in my bank...feels like a wasted space and lvl24-25 stuff works ok)

It was stated by the Devs in the discussions of Epic Necro that the sigils would not be required for flagging.

It's quite possible your looking at the Herioc pages on the wiki for info.

Just visited the wiki and can see the confusion both Herioc and epic quests are all on the same page along with the Herioc flagging mechanic.

Try going directly to the Mark of Death page for the flagging requirements:

Flagging

Complete each of the epic necropolis quests at least once and turn in the rewards. Talk to Hamond Byre.
Epic Desecrated Temple of Vol
Epic Fleshmaker's Laboratory
Epic Ghosts of Perdition
Epic Inferno of the Damned

[DakFrost]

doi ,it is obvious to figure out the quest...what I dont like ,is the mandatory multi-player. If it isnt a raid . I shouldn't need to group up for some geek to light /extinguish some lame flame...that is what the ''why'' reference is, in the thread title...like why would I group with snotty players to complete something...more than enough quests in other places ,so why?

Just because YOU can't solo Inferno doesn't mean that most other people also can't.

[Powskier]

Just because YOU can't solo Inferno doesn't mean that most other people also can't.

it is meant for a group...your 2 cents is worth only1 penny

[Powskier]

are all the epic necro runners using any of the lvl28 gear? and ,how long do ya'll run at lvl28? looks like a worthless effort to aquire. Mark of Death items prob should be lvl25 or 26. Way less incentive to run content ,if items get sparsely used..

[Zavier]

doi ,it is obvious to figure out the quest...what I dont like ,is the mandatory multi-player. If it isnt a raid . I shouldn't need to group up for some geek to light /extinguish some lame flame...that is what the ''why'' reference is, in the thread title...like why would I group with snotty players to complete something...more than enough quests in other places ,so why?

I remember a time when grouping with other people was a way to learn game mechanics. I learned how to do this quest from other players in a pug no less. They were kind enough to show me the ropes twice in a row didn't even levy a sigil tax.

It is so disheartening to read the constant complaints about actually having to learn the game. With each new update I am shocked at the gratuitous concessions to the casual. How many changes to the environment alone so some who doesn't have jump can have the easy path. I cannot comprehend how much time has been spent in the orchard adding "steps" where there were none before.

As a previous posted mentioned, I long for the pre-MoTU days.

[Karma]

I think what the OP is complaining about is a superficial level of complication. "Drag a mephit in" or "use a scroll" or "must have AOE caster of fire and cold spells." Really?

It's not how difficult it is to do any of these things; it's how difficult it might be, to a new player, to figure out any of those actions are required.

There are a great number of Super Mario-esque moments in this game. Things you have to "know" to accomplish.

While figuring those things out may be easy for most of you, many of us are just like "uh, ***?" either a) google an answer or b) give up.

Most of the puzzles presented are not "challenging." In this case, it is challenging because there are few clues about how to accomplish the task.

Anyone downing this guy for saying "***?" is just saying "I can do it, why can't you" and not realizing that anyone new to the game, on 1st life, is totally clueless. Never mind the maze, the lighting and extinguishing of torches is exotic knowledge. The game is designed, at many points, to the benefit of those with the "knowledge" and not all that encouraging, as in this example, to those that seek it.

You can do this, you can do that. You can spend hours trying to figure out how to do this or that, but those are the only things you can do. It's a bottleneck. Once you've figured it out, there's no bottleneck and the fun is gone, just another quick run.

That's what's OP is decrying. Artificial barriers to completion. It's really not that complicated a quest, for all those saying so: there's an artificial barrier to completion.

[Oxarhamar]

I think what the OP is complaining about is a superficial level of complication. "Drag a mephit in" or "use a scroll" or "must have AOE caster of fire and cold spells." Really?

It's not how difficult it is to do any of these things; it's how difficult it might be, to a new player, to figure out any of those actions are required.

There are a great number of Super Mario-esque moments in this game. Things you have to "know" to accomplish.

While figuring those things out may be easy for most of you, many of us are just like "uh, ***?" either a) google an answer or b) give up.

Most of the puzzles presented are not "challenging." In this case, it is challenging because there are few clues about how to accomplish the task.

Anyone downing this guy for saying "***?" is just saying "I can do it, why can't you" and not realizing that anyone new to the game, on 1st life, is totally clueless. Never mind the maze, the lighting and extinguishing of torches is exotic knowledge. The game is designed, at many points, to the benefit of those with the "knowledge" and not all that encouraging, as in this example, to those that seek it.

You can do this, you can do that. You can spend hours trying to figure out how to do this or that, but those are the only things you can do. It's a bottleneck. Once you've figured it out, there's no bottleneck and the fun is gone, just another quick run.

That's what's OP is decrying. Artificial barriers to completion. It's really not that complicated a quest, for all those saying so: there's an artificial barrier to completion.


Step 1 post if forum "how do I do this?"
Step 2 get answers
Step 3 complain about answers
Step 4 profit?

[Gremmlynn]

Probably, whomever originally created the place (lore-wise, not dev-wise) didn't take efficiency into account. I'd say it's the player's job to use the clues that are there to complete, then figure out how to increase the efficiency part.Even if only running it once ever, random trial and error shouldn't be the only way to find one's way around. Some sort of clues or pattern to discern would be better. It is the players job to use the clues, the problem is that there aren't any clues there to figure out.

[Oxarhamar]

doi ,it is obvious to figure out the quest...what I dont like ,is the mandatory multi-player. If it isnt a raid . I shouldn't need to group up for some geek to light /extinguish some lame flame...that is what the ''why'' reference is, in the thread title...like why would I group with snotty players to complete something...more than enough quests in other places ,so why?

There are actual non raid quests that require more than one player or at least a hireling to complete.

Looking forward to the forum posts when you get to those.

[Oxarhamar]

Even if only running it once ever, random trial and error shouldn't be the only way to find one's way around. Some sort of clues or pattern to discern would be better. It is the players job to use the clues, the problem is that there aren't any clues there to figure out.

At the time the quest was originally created players were not dominating the mobs the way they do now.

If they were fighting the mephitis in the torch rooms after the DM message to extinguish/light the torches chances are at least one would have been put out before a respawn.

[Dimwhit1]

I ran this a couple times with a friend. Took a couple hours to do it. We figured it out, but it was a pain. But I wanted to run all the Epic Orchard quests by myself, so I had to do this on my own with my Monk. I used the wiki. After a couple/few times running it, I can do it in under 30 minutes, and it's actually kind of fun (though admittedly frustrating when I can't get the Air Elementals to blow out the torches).

But it's certainly doable solo, even without the wiki. That just makes it quicker.

[Karma]

Step 1 post if forum "how do I do this?"
Step 2 get answers
Step 3 complain about answers
Step 4 profit?

I missed the part in the TOS where the game required a forum account to begin to enjoy?

[BigErkyKid]

Even if only running it once ever, random trial and error shouldn't be the only way to find one's way around. Some sort of clues or pattern to discern would be better. It is the players job to use the clues, the problem is that there aren't any clues there to figure out.

That would be a matter of common sense. But that's not how many quests are designed. For there to be clues that make sense quests would have to be designed completely differently.

So many quests in DDO are obviously cardboard scenaries for us. A good quest with good clues and lore would be one where you have the impression that there is a lore coherent set up you are stepping into. How on earth do you achieve that in a quest where mobs stand in the middle of corridors for hours for no good reason?

I almost never have the impression that the quests are just instances that don't spawn for me, rather lairs of mobs with their own goals who are just being interrupted by me.

[Hafeal]

In that regard nothing in ddo that people consider "hard" is rewarded.


Ah, I see. You want your personal entertainment time from a game to sufficiently boost up your self worth by allowing you to gloat over your ability to manipulate pixels in a video game through some "reward" that only you see and few others would notice in the same game world you populate. Hmmm ... maybe it is time to re-think your approach to the game?




it is meant for a group...your 2 cents is worth only1 penny

Actually, the quests were originally designed for 4 person groups. The game has been modified to allow for more friendly solo play. So, yes, group play is supposed to be the norm - hey - welcome to an MMO! ;)

[Angelic-council]

Meanwhile, players running sagas in orchard for some good exp and gear ^-^

[BigErkyKid]

Ah, I see. You want your personal entertainment time from a game to sufficiently boost up your self worth by allowing you to gloat over your ability to manipulate pixels in a video game through some "reward" that only you see and few others would notice in the same game world you populate. Hmmm ... maybe it is time to re-think your approach to the game?


Context is your friend before you start insulting.

[Oxarhamar]

I missed the part in the TOS where the game required a forum account to begin to enjoy?

I never suggested it did.

[zwiebelring]

this is silly...players say they like this quest? prove you really figured it out w/o wiki or shut thy blowholes...I wager 1% of players may have done inferno w/o wiki at most. To say this is a thinkers quest is total B S ,it is a wiki read as yogo ,players just follow the numbers ,#wow u can read.

*shut thy blowholes*. Yeah, I guess I will shut yours. Put on ignore list. Good luck on further attempts on that quest.

[Gremmlynn]

At the time the quest was originally created players were not dominating the mobs the way they do now.

If they were fighting the mephitis in the torch rooms after the DM message to extinguish/light the torches chances are at least one would have been put out before a respawn.Yes, I know as that's how I figured lighting the torches out (though it didn't seem to work for extinguishing them).

What I'm talking about is the route. If one doesn't know it, the only way is to wander aimlessly until stumbling on it. Some pattern in the mob spawns or subtle environmental clue (no, not a sparkly path) that lets one actually solve the puzzle of the maze would be a vast improvement over "know it or wander randomly until you stumble onto it".

[Oxarhamar]

Yes, I know as that's how I figured lighting the torches out (though it didn't seem to work for extinguishing them).

What I'm talking about is the route. If one doesn't know it, the only way is to wander aimlessly until stumbling on it. Some pattern in the mob spawns or subtle environmental clue (no, not a sparkly path) that lets one actually solve the puzzle of the maze would be a vast improvement over "know it or wander randomly until you stumble onto it".

I'll give you the paths are a bit tricky but, the objectives North south east west are pretty clear.

I like the unclear exploration of quests on a first time through but, that's the dungeon crawler in me.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The whole quest does not make sense in the way I talked about.

Finding the route is not an exercice of deduction, it is trial and error aided by nothing in the quest.

What is rewarded is repetition and memorization.

Just read my posts before this.

Easy quests are easy and there is nothing much to comment about them. Vol, flesh, all of those are just meh and we know it. However, hard quests (in the sense of inferno) do not reward either what I pointed out.



There are quest objectives (and DM voice hints) that tell you which direction and on what side (normal or fire, but you have to deduce that from the words light and extinguish) that you need to go.

There is a map that eventually you will clear enough of it to make an educated guess on which part of the map that you need to get to.

I admit it is annoying. I do not "know it"; it takes me a very long time to figure it out. But I have figured it out for myself on two occasions. Once when the quest came out and again just recently.

Most of the time I just PUG it, and someone always "knows it" and the quest gets completed fast and effortlessly.

Anyway, my point is there "are" things in the quest to aid you. And while it takes some trial and error at first, there are ways to deduce what needs to be done.

(all quests are easier to deduce the first time with more brains trying to help the deduction. "two heads are better than one." I suggest bringing friends the first time. After the first time, you should know enough to figure it out on your own with little effort. Although it does take a lot of time.)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

this is silly...players say they like this quest? prove you really figured it out w/o wiki or shut thy blowholes...I wager 1% of players may have done inferno w/o wiki at most. To say this is a thinkers quest is total B S ,it is a wiki read as yogo ,players just follow the numbers ,#wow u can read.




I believe Inferno has been around longer then the wiki.

[Scrabbler]

>>oh ? can I get the shield frag from a chest if I run out of order? wiki suggests the number path to get the fragment
Be warned: there is a bug in the dungeon, and it is entirely likely you cannot get the shield chest no matter what order you walk.

[Scrabbler]

What I'm talking about is the route. If one doesn't know it, the only way is to wander aimlessly until stumbling on it. Some pattern in the mob spawns or subtle environmental clue (no, not a sparkly path) that lets one actually solve the puzzle of the maze would be a vast improvement over "know it or wander randomly until you stumble onto it".
You're very correct that maze dungeons like Inferno of the Damned have a serious design flaw.

It is super-hard to get through if you don't know how ahead of time, but once you do have foreknowledge it is super-easy. The effort of figuring out the tricky kind of maze goes away on replays. What would've been better is if they gave it a simpler path, but randomized each time. That would mean that it's not quite as hard on the first time, and not nearly as easy on the 30th time: each and every run requires learning about the layout you're in.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

so,why are there quests like inferno paint by number? there should be some hints or messages to the pattern ,hidden or whatever...giving us an RPG feel for a quest like this. But no , it is a trial and error system?...or follow the wiklol. I figured haywire wheels without wiki 1st time ,only to discover i didnt have jump to get out the shaft...well over an hour wasted gives newcomers a real kick in the groin.

What pattern?!

Wiki, efficient pattern?

Nothing is stopping you from going back and forth, in every direction, except time.

And there are DM comments along the way to clue you in to what is going on and what is required.
There are quest objectives, that eventually should make sense after awhile.

Yes, it takes time in the dungeon. Lots of time. And trying to go South I find to be very frustrating.
I do not actually like the quest. But variety is a good thing.






Oh, and take off your armor. I think all of my characters have gotten out of the shaft without a Jump spell. Granted, this one someone "did" show to me. I admit that I did not have to figure out where to jump to get out by myself.... we used to help people back in the day.

[Oxarhamar]

There are quest objectives (and DM voice hints) that tell you which direction and on what side (normal or fire, but you have to deduce that from the words light and extinguish) that you need to go.

There is a map that eventually you will clear enough of it to make an educated guess on which part of the map that you need to get to.

I admit it is annoying. I do not "know it"; it takes me a very long time to figure it out. But I have figured it out for myself on two occasions. Once when the quest came out and again just recently.

Most of the time I just PUG it, and someone always "knows it" and the quest gets completed fast and effortlessly.

Anyway, my point is there "are" things in the quest to aid you. And while it takes some trial and error at first, there are ways to deduce what needs to be done.

(all quests are easier to deduce the first time with more brains trying to help the deduction. "two heads are better than one." I suggest bringing friends the first time. After the first time, you should know enough to figure it out on your own with little effort. Although it does take a lot of time.)

I don't know it by heart or use the wiki.

My method in a group is to let the group follow the typical path while I head off in the opposite direction. mashing through which ever portals I come across searching for the torch rooms generally it's pretty easy there are lots of dead ends that turn you back to the right direction (since there is no other way to go) I normally end up completing about half of the torch rooms and meeting the party at the end fight.

Recently thou I had a group that all died somewhere else in the dungeon which led me to solo the quest while looking for them. Couple Res scrolls later and the last torch room then on to the end fight. That was a fun run for sure.

Understanding the mechanics of the quest. I don't need then map or to have it memorized just know if I continue to go through portals they eventually lead to the objectives or dead ends.

I guess it could be compared to the Left Left Left maze approach just a bit more complex with 2 sides.

[Karma]

From OP


Players like options and quests like this give the opposite.

Options for this: bring spells (or wands or something) or drag creatures, against all self-preservation instincts, across the "torches" (some of which require lighting, some extinguishing).

The difficulty of the maze does not matter. That's OK, figure that out.

Not being able to complete the quest because you're not "in the know" about the torches, or don't think to kite monsters (what adventurer would?) is a problem.

Drop a torch snuffer item in one of the chests, and a flint in another. Problem solved. No reason to have to use spells or monsters. None.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

doi ,it is obvious to figure out the quest...what I dont like ,is the mandatory multi-player. If it isnt a raid . I shouldn't need to group up for some geek to light /extinguish some lame flame...that is what the ''why'' reference is, in the thread title...like why would I group with snotty players to complete something...more than enough quests in other places ,so why?



Use the Mephits. It's easy...
(granted I didn't figure this part out for myself... not exactly anyway. I do think I saw one do it by accident and realized it might be possible to at least light them with fire mephits. I think I didn't realize they could be put out by the mephits till somone told me though.)

[Oxarhamar]

From OP



Options for this: bring spells (or wands or something) or drag creatures, against all self-preservation instincts, across the "torches" (some of which require lighting, some extinguishing).

The difficulty of the maze does not matter. That's OK, figure that out.

Not being able to complete the quest because you're not "in the know" about the torches, or don't think to kite monsters (what adventurer would?) is a problem.

Drop a torch snuffer item in one of the chests, and a flint in another. Problem solved. No reason to have to use spells or monsters. None.

I seam to remeber at least one other quest and a couple raids (probably more I'm not thinking of at the moment) you had to drag monsters into specific locations "against all self preservation instincts"

All quest should not simply be solved by Killing everything. Interesting alternative welcome.

[PermaBanned]

Options for this: bring spells (or wands or something) or drag creatures, against all self-preservation instincts, across the "torches" (some of which require lighting, some extinguishing).

The difficulty of the maze does not matter. That's OK, figure that out.

Not being able to complete the quest because you're not "in the know" about the torches, or don't think to kite monsters (what adventurer would?) is a problem.

Drop a torch snuffer item in one of the chests, and a flint in another. Problem solved. No reason to have to use spells or monsters. None.If there were ignite/extinguish items in the chests, there would be efficient paths to find them in the wiki, or the same "wander aimlessly" approach one has now without the wiki. Personally, I prefer the monsters over chest items because they're right there at every room; if they were in chests, I'd have to bypass rooms to get the items then go back to the rooms.

As for options, this is one of the least linear quests in the game. Sure, there's a nice efficient path once you learn it (by either exploring & practicing, reading the wiki, or paying attention when following the guy who knows it), bit it's not the "only" or "required" path.

Really, one of the best designed quests in the game: you can come in prepared or unprepared and still complete, from the entrance you can start off in one of three different directions and still complete, there's a nice variety of mobs, traps are placed randomly... There's more adventure in this one quest than in many full quest packs.

[DirtySheepdip]

i read wiki on this silly quest twice now and I dont think Ill ever run it. Looks like a very specific path to take ,or wasted run pretty much? Need cold/fire spells,***reak? ...he haw no solo run thru then for non casters(shouldnt fire /or cold arrow work?) A challenging maze for sure-or tricky wiki run,but it shouldn't be on a raid list. Players like options and quests like this give the opposite.

...read the wiki... have you tried the quest yet?

[DirtySheepdip]

this is silly...players say they like this quest? prove you really figured it out w/o wiki or shut thy blowholes...I wager 1% of players may have done inferno w/o wiki at most. To say this is a thinkers quest is total B S ,it is a wiki read as yogo ,players just follow the numbers ,#wow u can read.

the DM gives clues as for what to do... its not that hard to figure it out

[Azarddoze]

I've got something scary for you all.

What if, just what if the OP was representating the new majority of the gamers that devs use to balance and create content?

** This is for laughing purpose only. I have nothing against how the OP plays - just what it causes over time. **

1 = The OP aka The Possible 2014 Majority
2 = DDO vet / old school gamer

1. "If that wall can't be blowned up with money, i'm out!"
2. "But there's a door up the ledge..."

1. "I don't have enought jump skills"
2. "But... there's that trap you can avoid underwater also. I'll show you how."

1. "My friend died there the other day, think i'm stupid enought to try?"
2. "Well, is it possible to buy jump scrolls or pots from the AH?"

1. "Think i'm gonna pay only to complete this quest? I was kidding earlier. I'd rather wait while you do it. Any good drop for me here btw? (looks at TP amount)"
2. "But... you'll never learn..."

1. "XP/MIN MAN! My founders guildmates told me it's how they do it. What are you waiting for, you said you could solo it anyway?"
2. "/facepalm to the lack of common sense"

1. "AFK gotta take my dog out".
2. "... you just logged on? And we're questing."

1. "***? I'm waiting on you to finish"



That would explain many things.

[Braegan]

this is silly...players say they like this quest? prove you really figured it out w/o wiki or shut thy blowholes...I wager 1% of players may have done inferno w/o wiki at most. To say this is a thinkers quest is total B S ,it is a wiki read as yogo ,players just follow the numbers ,#wow u can read.

I like Inferno.
I finished it when it was first released and the cap was level 14 without spoilers or walkthroughs.
Many more than 1% also did this.
It is more a thinkers quest than some others.

[redoubt]

What I dislike about the quest is that there are no hints in it as for what should be the route to take to complete efficiently. It is just a matter of knowing.

Too many things in this game are completely obscure and just depend on repetion. Using your brain should be rewarded too.

There are hints on how to complete the quest. That is all they owe you. It is up to us as players to figure it out. After that, to figure out ways to do it better.

I think that another big part of the problem is that most players who are here now, don't remember when it took hours to complete quests. No one has any patience anymore.

p.s.
Whenever new content comes out, I run it without spoilers the first time with my friends. This is what I find to be the most fun. After that I learn to run them better and accept hints and techniques from others as well.
When I first tried inferno I failed. A few times. That is not a bad thing. Eventually I had to find a map and a walkthrough for it. After running it for a few years I have it memorized now.
I actually completed the newer prison one with my guild the first time in, but it took us a long, long time. Then I found a map and learned a faster way.

[redoubt]

The whole quest does not make sense in the way I talked about.

Finding the route is not an exercice of deduction, it is trial and error aided by nothing in the quest.

What is rewarded is repetition and memorization.

Just read my posts before this.

Easy quests are easy and there is nothing much to comment about them. Vol, flesh, all of those are just meh and we know it. However, hard quests (in the sense of inferno) do not reward either what I pointed out.

I read your other post about what you would have done. Other than adding some decoration in the room with the acolytes, I think they hit all the points you are after.

Going into the inferno, which is a place with PORTALS to other DIMENSIONS and expecting it to not require some trial and error seems a bit silly. Next, consider that both maps are the same. When you go through a portal you appear in the same place on the alternate map. (They could have made it like the shadow crypt... I tried many times to work that one out and I'm just happy to have instructions for it now.)

What clues, specifically, do you think they should add to inferno that increase immersion without being spoilers?

[bartharok]

First time i ran inferno was in a group. (yeah it was in the good old times when PUGing was easier) I was more or less dragged through the quest with no clue as to what aws happening. The only thing i learned that time was to smash portals and use the mephits to light/extinguish. The next time i soloed it to figure out what actually went on in the quest, which took a lot longer. As a end result i kno how to get through the quest, but tend to get lost at times. I dont consider the quest particularly hard, unless i make a mess out of it, but DO consider it rather fun, since its different from most quests.

[Scrabbler]

Going into the inferno, which is a place with PORTALS to other DIMENSIONS and expecting it to not require some trial and error seems a bit silly.
The problem with Inferno (and also Shadow Crypt) is that it does not require trial and error. It requires memorization or web pages. Using trial and error is far less effective than referencing someone else who did the work years earlier.


What clues, specifically, do you think they should add to inferno that increase immersion without being spoilers?
They should randomly remove 3-4 barriers when the dungeon is created, so that more places on the map are connected and it's generally easier to get around. That way people can use "trial and error" each time they play.

They should also set the torches to never deflect the path of AOE spells, and prevent Mephits from standing on top of torches. Plus Mephits should never take damage by standing in lava, and hirelings / pets shouldn't kill portals.

[redoubt]

Can't use deduction? Sure you can.
The facts of the case:

- The portals switch you back between regular and inferno side, as do the Acolytes.

- The mobs light the torches or extinguish them (or you can yourself with spells).

- Regular side must be set on fire before inferno side can be extinguished.

- Extinguishing inferno side spawn a cinder spawn.

- Kill the four cinder spawns to pop the boss.

- Profit.

With those facts, which can be easily gleaned, you can solve the mystery.

Just like Scooby Doo.


So? How does this provide clues on the real challenge, which is finding the route to the torches?

I'm curious what you think of the PIT. It has a map and a restart guide. It is still today one of the hardest dungeons for new people (and many vets even) to navigate. There are signs on the wall at each side room announcing what that room is. The only thing they didn't do was put in emergency exit lighting to guide you room to room.

People are pointing out the clues that are already in place, but you dismiss them all. So again I ask you to list, specifically, what clues you think would be better. (Your previous post was a concept level description.)

[goodspeed]

I'm curious what you think of the PIT. It has a map and a restart guide. It is still today one of the hardest dungeons for new people (and many vets even) to navigate. There are signs on the wall at each side room announcing what that room is. The only thing they didn't do was put in emergency exit lighting to guide you room to room.

People are pointing out the clues that are already in place, but you dismiss them all. So again I ask you to list, specifically, what clues you think would be better. (Your previous post was a concept level description.)

lol I hated the pit so **** much. However, it does give a crapload of xp so worth it to run at least once a life. Of course that was back before otto boxes and iconics so now its more moot.

[Scrabbler]

The only thing they didn't do was put in emergency exit lighting to guide you room to room.
They didn't put in a multi-layer automap (as seen in new dungeons), or control boxes for the traps, and especially didn't add acceptable jumping animations.

[redoubt]

They don't know, but using their brains should aide them in accomplishing the objective. You need to reward playing smart within the dungeon and for the sake of immersion for me playing smart should be to be able to identify and interpret lore based clues.

Inferno provides nothing like that.

You like how quests are done in DDO? More power to you.

I personally dislike a few things:

1. They are build to be fun the first time but have very little replay value. Quests should be crafted to be fun the 10th time, not only the first.

2. Lore plays close to no role in the solution of the quests.

3. They are mostly linear and have a unique solution.

4. For 99% of them, all is needed is DPS and self healing.

I am not going to keep discussing "likes and dislikes" with you because it is like arguing over our fav color. You like blue, I like yellow. So?

1. I'm not sure how to make that a formula, but Haunted Halls is very entertaining to me even after multiple runs. I like what they did there.

2. I recently read the book "The Godborn" and then later did the Thunderholme explorer area on a new life and noticed the journals talked about stuff I read in that book. I slowed down and found a ton of lore that I had been passing by...

3. I also dislike so much linear operations. But this is what confusing me about you not liking inferno. Its one of the few where its not linear. Yes the fastest path could be called linear, but the quest doesn't force it.

4. I've been a big advocate of improving the stealth game and making it so dps is not the only solution. So I agree with you here.

[redoubt]

so how is inferno a nonlinear quest? It is as linear as it gets with the number pattern;all you do is kill and run around in the right order or not. What great intuition gave you the torch pattern???also, tormented don't require thinking,just look at the rats and send em the right way. Like there was some eureka moment ,he heh heeh.

The fastest path can be considered linear.

The quest itself is not. You can do the torches in other orders, its just not a fast.

Linear is a quest that requires you to go one way and one way only. There are lots of those. Ghosts of perdition is one example. There is a single path through that dungeon. Vol on the other hand allows you to go left or right a few different times. You still end up doing most of the quest to get all the required kills, but you can pick the direction you go.

The great intuition comes from mapping the quest and then working out the best route. Its no different than going to a new city. The first time you might get where you are going, but over time you improve your route and find the best way to get from A to B.

[PermaBanned]

What I dislike about the quest is that there are no hints... Using your brain should be rewarded too."Extinguish the south flame"


The problem with Inferno (and also Shadow Crypt) is that it does not require trial and error. It requires memorization or web pages. Using trial and error is far less effective than referencing someone else who did the work years earlier.Memorization and web pages are not required, otherwise how would the first people who ran it unaided (and later created those web pages) have done so? What, do you think the Devs provide the wiki pages prior to releasing content?

[DakFrost]

it is meant for a group...your 2 cents is worth only1 penny

Hello, welcome to DDO.

You'll learn to play it eventually.

[redoubt]

I think what the OP is complaining about is a superficial level of complication. "Drag a mephit in" or "use a scroll" or "must have AOE caster of fire and cold spells." Really?

It's not how difficult it is to do any of these things; it's how difficult it might be, to a new player, to figure out any of those actions are required.

There are a great number of Super Mario-esque moments in this game. Things you have to "know" to accomplish.

While figuring those things out may be easy for most of you, many of us are just like "uh, ***?" either a) google an answer or b) give up.

Most of the puzzles presented are not "challenging." In this case, it is challenging because there are few clues about how to accomplish the task.

Anyone downing this guy for saying "***?" is just saying "I can do it, why can't you" and not realizing that anyone new to the game, on 1st life, is totally clueless. Never mind the maze, the lighting and extinguishing of torches is exotic knowledge. The game is designed, at many points, to the benefit of those with the "knowledge" and not all that encouraging, as in this example, to those that seek it.

You can do this, you can do that. You can spend hours trying to figure out how to do this or that, but those are the only things you can do. It's a bottleneck. Once you've figured it out, there's no bottleneck and the fun is gone, just another quick run.

That's what's OP is decrying. Artificial barriers to completion. It's really not that complicated a quest, for all those saying so: there's an artificial barrier to completion.

If this was asked of a level 3 character, I would agree with you. But, do you still consider someone who is out running the orchard to be a new player? If someone buys iconic and does the orchard without learning how the game works, I have little sympathy there. The game was designed to be played by groups of people. Huge concessions have been made to make it more solo friendly.

And yes, I remember taking hours to complete quests. Running von5/6 was an event. We spent a week flagging and then planned 2 to 3 hours to do the pre-raid and raid. (We even had to reflag EVERY time we ran the raid.)

I don't see an artificial barrier to completion in inferno. If it is there, please clearly state what it is.

You are right about the bottle necks. To me they make it fun. I like having to figure it out. I spend somewhere between 3 and 4 hours in Haunted Halls the first time. I thought it was great. We had no clue what we were up to and my whole group loved it. That is why I don't want them to remove the things that are hard to figure out and require time and effort. Those are the things that make for a richer game experience.

[redoubt]

OH!!!

What about a Study in Sable? Have you been in there? That is a real brain buster quest. Check it out and report back.

[DirtySheepdip]

so,why are there quests like inferno paint by number? there should be some hints or messages to the pattern ,hidden or whatever...giving us an RPG feel for a quest like this. But no , it is a trial and error system?...or follow the wiklol. I figured haywire wheels without wiki 1st time ,only to discover i didnt have jump to get out the shaft...well over an hour wasted gives newcomers a real kick in the groin.

quests should be trial and error, until YOU figure them out. stop reading the wiki, and do it yourself, and if you can't, don't blame it on the game.

[redoubt]

Drop a torch snuffer item in one of the chests, and a flint in another. Problem solved. No reason to have to use spells or monsters. None.

That is reasonable.

There could also be a DM comment about the mephitis lighting things in the room on fire or blowing out fire. Not about the torch itself, but in general and then leave it up to the player to have a "lightbulb" moment and apply what the DM just said.

[Lonnbeimnech]

OH!!!

What about a Study in Sable? Have you been in there? That is a real brain buster quest. Check it out and report back.

But if you are willing to fight the thralls in the endfight, it can be zerged in 10 min.

[redoubt]

But if you are willing to fight the thralls in the endfight, it can be zerged in 10 min.

True, but its a very non-linear quest and has lots of clues. We can meta-game anything (I think the point of the thread is ways to play without the metagame; I think..)

[Braegan]

If this was asked of a level 3 character, I would agree with you. But, do you still consider someone who is out running the orchard to be a new player? If someone buys iconic and does the orchard without learning how the game works, I have little sympathy there. The game was designed to be played by groups of people. Huge concessions have been made to make it more solo friendly.

And yes, I remember taking hours to complete quests. Running von5/6 was an event. We spent a week flagging and then planned 2 to 3 hours to do the pre-raid and raid. (We even had to reflag EVERY time we ran the raid.)

I don't see an artificial barrier to completion in inferno. If it is there, please clearly state what it is.

You are right about the bottle necks. To me they make it fun. I like having to figure it out. I spend somewhere between 3 and 4 hours in Haunted Halls the first time. I thought it was great. We had no clue what we were up to and my whole group loved it. That is why I don't want them to remove the things that are hard to figure out and require time and effort. Those are the things that make for a richer game experience.

Well said.

I take up helping new folks when I can, but at some point they are not new anymore.

This wasn't originally a game that was extremely simple, and did require some tactics and thought.

We've gone far enough away from this already.

Have a challenge, it's good for you.

[Singular]

They don't know, but using their brains should aide them in accomplishing the objective. You need to reward playing smart within the dungeon and for the sake of immersion for me playing smart should be to be able to identify and interpret lore based clues.

Inferno provides nothing like that.

You like how quests are done in DDO? More power to you.

I personally dislike a few things:

1. They are build to be fun the first time but have very little replay value. Quests should be crafted to be fun the 10th time, not only the first.

2. Lore plays close to no role in the solution of the quests.

3. They are mostly linear and have a unique solution.

4. For 99% of them, all is needed is DPS and self healing.

I am not going to keep discussing "likes and dislikes" with you because it is like arguing over our fav color. You like blue, I like yellow. So?

Yellow?!? Why yellow? I mean, haven't you ever considered red? Now red's a color worth favoriting! It's got blood, rubies, lava, fireballs - fireballs! - the color of the infected's eyes! - and all kinds of awesomeness on its side.

But yellow, you're talking canaries and buses. Blach!

EDIT: and sunsets! Red's got it all!

[Braegan]

Yellow?!? Why yellow? I mean, haven't you ever considered red? Now red's a color worth favoriting! It's got blood, rubies, lava, fireballs - fireballs! - the color of the infected's eyes! - and all kinds of awesomeness on its side.

But yellow, you're talking canaries and buses. Blach!

EDIT: and sunsets! Red's got it all!

I like Red almost as much as I love the Realms!

[Singular]

First time i ran inferno was in a group. (yeah it was in the good old times when PUGing was easier) I was more or less dragged through the quest with no clue as to what aws happening. The only thing i learned that time was to smash portals and use the mephits to light/extinguish. The next time i soloed it to figure out what actually went on in the quest, which took a lot longer. As a end result i kno how to get through the quest, but tend to get lost at times. I dont consider the quest particularly hard, unless i make a mess out of it, but DO consider it rather fun, since its different from most quests.

Me too. Had no idea what was going on. I tried to run it myself after that and couldn't quite get it. Then, after avoiding it for a very long time, I solo'd it over level and finally figured it out. Took about 30 minutes.

[Braegan]

One of my fondest in game memories was running this quest on Elite shortly after it was released.

Back then, you lost XP personally for dying. No not your bonus XP, you lost XP from your character.

We hit a wall by the rez shrine, and we all just kept rezing and swinging until we cleared that particular room. OMG, we all lost so much xp but we won and completed. And we all got better and further runs were much less painful.

But that tenacity. That's what's lacking. Folks just want a slice of easy pie now.

Le sigh.

[Gremmlynn]

quests should be trial and error, until YOU figure them out. stop reading the wiki, and do it yourself, and if you can't, don't blame it on the game.I'm going to have to disagree. Quests should be trial and error only if one can't figure out the clues that point the way.

The puzzle for the rune wheel combination in the CO6 end quest is a good example. One could just keep trying different combinations till the barrier dropped if they can't figure it out. But solving the puzzle would be a lot faster (likely even if it took a week to solve).

[BigErkyKid]

"Extinguish the south flame"



Since when has the problem been reading the DM text in inferno? The issue is not figuring out you got to extinguish the flame, rather, finding the path. And there is absolutely no lore / context based clue on how to do that.

But after me and several other people saying that in dozens of posts the fact that you still insist on making this comment (or the people mentioning sparkling paths) just points out that you are not out for an honest discussion.

[Oxarhamar]

Since when has the problem been reading the DM text in inferno? The issue is not figuring out you got to extinguish the flame, rather, finding the path. And there is absolutely no lore / context based clue on how to do that.

But after me and several other people saying that in dozens of posts the fact that you still insist on making this comment (or the people mentioning sparkling paths) just points out that you are not out for an honest discussion.

"Extinguish the flame"

yes figure it out. How could one possibly extinguish a flame? on a reply to your "rewarded for using your brain" comment

[bartharok]

Since when has the problem been reading the DM text in inferno? The issue is not figuring out you got to extinguish the flame, rather, finding the path. And there is absolutely no lore / context based clue on how to do that.

But after me and several other people saying that in dozens of posts the fact that you still insist on making this comment (or the people mentioning sparkling paths) just points out that you are not out for an honest discussion.

A maze is SUPPOSED to be hard to navigate. Thats pretty much the whole point with one. I used my brain to figure out what way would be most likely to succeed, and did get through it. Even if it took some time. If you want to be able to do it in a hurry, youre just asking for a shortcut.

[stoerm]

One purpose for raid flagging is to prepare you for the raid. It's not just a hoop to jump through. Often the flagging quests or areas include mobs and mechanics that are also in the raid, for example the mirror puzzles in Thunderholme. One aspect very characteristic of raids is they are designed (*gasp*) for a group. Perhaps it's just as well that flagging quests encourage people to familiarise themselves with this peculiar aspect of MMOs - playing with other people.

It occurs to me that people who complain about Inferno are (a) not going to enjoy or (b) be very useful or (c) very alive in Abbot or MoD. I guess it's just as well Abbot can be piked by most of the group.

So if Inferno is horrible because it "requires" you to group up and learn mechanics from the Wiki or other people, just wait until you get in the raid. A whopping 12 people! Multiple mechanics to learn! Few hints or tips as to what you should be doing! Twitch skills required!

[BigErkyKid]

A maze is SUPPOSED to be hard to navigate. Thats pretty much the whole point with one. I used my brain to figure out what way would be most likely to succeed, and did get through it. Even if it took some time. If you want to be able to do it in a hurry, youre just asking for a shortcut.

No. I am not asking for a shortcut. I am asking for the environment to provide clues for those who pay attention to guide you through quests. Lore based clues would be a big plus. Understanding the lore and logic of the place you visit (understanding how the creatures in it think) should be a big plus for solving a quest.

The path is completely arbitrary right now. You try until you find the way and that's it. There is close to no deduction in it.

And the second issue I pointed out is that quests do no make sense for the most part. Dungeons are obviously cardboard scenarios, not really ecosystems on their own. For the most part, mobs don't have any real reason to stand where they do. If you were to disappear from the quest and look it from above it would look absolutely absurd.

The second issue matters for immersion reasons and because if the lore doesn't make any sense whatsoever in the quest, how on earth can you reward understanding it and playing smart? I am about to start a new thread and dissect a variety of quests from DDO. The layouts, the mob behaviour, the solutions to the quest. In a lot of cases those make no sense, they are completely arbitrary and don't provide the feeling that it could indeed be the a "real / coherent" lair of mobs that you are visiting.

[Singular]

I like Red almost as much as I love the Realms!

There you go!

[stoerm]

I've got something scary for you all.

I'm actually terrified that the future of DDO is quests like Tracker's Trap: a tunnel thinly disguised as a forest. That was the first quest I ran in Storm Horns and it was so awful it put me off the new content for a long time.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Since when has the problem been reading the DM text in inferno? The issue is not figuring out you got to extinguish the flame, rather, finding the path. And there is absolutely no lore / context based clue on how to do that.

But after me and several other people saying that in dozens of posts the fact that you still insist on making this comment (or the people mentioning sparkling paths) just points out that you are not out for an honest discussion.

Yeah, how are we supposed to know which way south is without context, clues and lore telling us...

[Oxarhamar]

No. I am not asking for a shortcut. I am asking for the environment to provide clues for those who pay attention to guide you through quests. Lore based clues would be a big plus. Understanding the lore and logic of the place you visit (understanding how the creatures in it think) should be a big plus for solving a quest.

The path is completely arbitrary right now. You try until you find the way and that's it. There is close to no deduction in it.

And the second issue I pointed out is that quests do no make sense for the most part. Dungeons are obviously cardboard scenarios, not really ecosystems on their own. For the most part, mobs don't have any real reason to stand where they do. If you were to disappear from the quest and look it from above it would look absolutely absurd.

The second issue matters for immersion reasons and because if the lore doesn't make any sense whatsoever in the quest, how on earth can you reward understanding it and playing smart? I am about to start a new thread and dissect a variety of quests from DDO. The layouts, the mob behaviour, the solutions to the quest. In a lot of cases those make no sense, they are completely arbitrary and don't provide the feeling that it could indeed be the a "real / coherent" lair of mobs that you are visiting.

Try playing the quests read the DM texts pay attention to the storylines become immersed. Immersion happens when you let yourself be one within the story not some outward observer searching for flaws in the individual quest.

The entirety of the storyline from Nerco 1 to Epic Necro 4 the bits of lore surround these stories in other areas of DDOs Eberron.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Try playing the quests read the DM texts pay attention to the storylines become immersed. Immersion happens when you let yourself be one within the story not some outward observer searching for flaws in the individual quest.

The entirety of the storyline from Nerco 1 to Epic Necro 4 the bits of lore surround these stories in other areas of DDOs Eberron.

Part of why so many say there is no lore in the game, they skip all the text and don't talk to npc's other than the quest givers.

He is going to have fun trying to figure out the black dragon's riddle in litany.

[Scrabbler]

He is going to have fun trying to figure out the black dragon's riddle in litany.
1. No, someone else in the party will do that before he even knows the dragon is talking.
2. No, he'll read the answers on the internet like everyone does.
3. Even if he was trying to solve the dragon riddles on his own, paying attention to the necropolis dungeons doesn't provide that information. You get the info from the quiz itself, or from external D&D rulebooks (like what alignment a Brass dragon is).

[bartharok]

No. I am not asking for a shortcut. I am asking for the environment to provide clues for those who pay attention to guide you through quests. Lore based clues would be a big plus. Understanding the lore and logic of the place you visit (understanding how the creatures in it think) should be a big plus for solving a quest.

The path is completely arbitrary right now. You try until you find the way and that's it. There is close to no deduction in it.

And the second issue I pointed out is that quests do no make sense for the most part. Dungeons are obviously cardboard scenarios, not really ecosystems on their own. For the most part, mobs don't have any real reason to stand where they do. If you were to disappear from the quest and look it from above it would look absolutely absurd.

The second issue matters for immersion reasons and because if the lore doesn't make any sense whatsoever in the quest, how on earth can you reward understanding it and playing smart? I am about to start a new thread and dissect a variety of quests from DDO. The layouts, the mob behaviour, the solutions to the quest. In a lot of cases those make no sense, they are completely arbitrary and don't provide the feeling that it could indeed be the a "real / coherent" lair of mobs that you are visiting.

Sigh.. I blame modern education. You CAN reason the maze out without getting all the pieces. Its just a bit harder.

[Eth]

I read absolutely nothing in this thread, but I'm amazed a thread about Inferno reaches 8 pages.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

No. I am not asking for a shortcut. I am asking for the environment to provide clues for those who pay attention to guide you through quests. Lore based clues would be a big plus. Understanding the lore and logic of the place you visit (understanding how the creatures in it think) should be a big plus for solving a quest.

The path is completely arbitrary right now. You try until you find the way and that's it. There is close to no deduction in it.

And the second issue I pointed out is that quests do no make sense for the most part. Dungeons are obviously cardboard scenarios, not really ecosystems on their own. For the most part, mobs don't have any real reason to stand where they do. If you were to disappear from the quest and look it from above it would look absolutely absurd.

The second issue matters for immersion reasons and because if the lore doesn't make any sense whatsoever in the quest, how on earth can you reward understanding it and playing smart? I am about to start a new thread and dissect a variety of quests from DDO. The layouts, the mob behaviour, the solutions to the quest. In a lot of cases those make no sense, they are completely arbitrary and don't provide the feeling that it could indeed be the a "real / coherent" lair of mobs that you are visiting.



That is not true.

You have a map inside every quest. You can see through the fire barriers a short distance.

Yes, it is a maze.
Yes it takes a long time.

But you keep saying there are no clues, and that is not true.

There is no single correct path. (through the dungeon anyway)

My first time, we had to just keep trying to get to areas of the map that were still blacked out. Not by random trial and error, but by knowing we had to go West. Knowing we had to go South. Knowing we had to light on normal side and extinguish on fire side.

We knew these things because the quest told us these things.
Yeah, we missed some of the clues. It took us a long time to figure out what we were really suppose to be doing.
We had more heads (a group) to help each other figure out what we needed to do.

I perfectly understand how a single player could feel like he didn't know what to do or how to do it.

But that doesn't change the fact that the quest provides plenty of clues.

It is an annoying maze; I get that.
But annoying does not mean that you (or someone) cannot deduce it.

Also, like most quests, you do actually need to go to most parts of the dungeon to complete the quest.
Why players seem to ignore the map provided I will never understand.
IMO going to all blacked out areas of a quest should be standard procedure. (if the group you are is not in a hurry and allows you to) (or do you solo with the intention of zoning into a new dungeon and just going straight to the end fight.)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Sigh.. I blame modern education. You CAN reason the maze out without getting all the pieces. Its just a bit harder.



That is another debate. (I am a teacher.)
It needs it's own thread.

Although that topic and this one could benefit from the same quote: "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

[bartharok]

That is another debate. (I am a teacher.)
It needs it's own thread.

Although that topic and this one could benefit from the same quote: "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

In the old days drinking was mandatory, nowadays its optional.

Thats the trouble with modern education, thinking for yourself IS optional.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

In the old days drinking was mandatory, nowadays its optional.

Thats the trouble with modern education, thinking for yourself IS optional.



I don't want to totally derail this thread.

[kmoustakas]

If you bother to learn this quest, it's actually quite fast. If you follow the suggested route it shouldn't take more than 10 minutes tops. If you do it the way I do it, with all opts and all exploring and flowersniffing, it's half an hour.

What I will accede to though, is the crucible problem. We can't have crucible like quests for flagging because people who don't like quests that need learning complain too much about them. We need theses quests to give awesome xp and loot though so people have some incentive to run.

Inferno, coal chamber are 'crucible' like flagging quests. Personally I love them but then again that's me, I love to take my time in quests.

[BigErkyKid]

Sigh.. I blame modern education. You CAN reason the maze out without getting all the pieces. Its just a bit harder.

Abandon this position of false superiority.

There is absolutely no clue regarding what path you should take. You just have to try and remember what you have tried until you find it. That is, the first time. Once you know the general idea you can aim in the correct direction.

This is not what is being debated. Yes, I can read the text that tells me I should mess with the torches, this is NOT the key difficulty of the quest. It would be really sad if it was.

The challenge of the quest is finding the right path and the only way of doing that is trial error. All the paths look the same, there are no clues regarding what direction you should take other than a general sense of direction.

This is a common stand on most quests in DDO. There are no clues inside the quest regarding the direction / tips on how to beat the quest smartly beyond metagaming. This is not rewarding understanding the lore given logic of the quest, its just blind trial error until metagaming takes care of it.

The best adventures I played in DnD were those that made sense. I was part of a world that made logical sense and I was introduding on it. Understanding mobs, their behavior, their lore and reasoning out the consequences of my actions was rewarded with better chances at succeeding.

This is NOT what is going on in DDO. The majority of quests are cardboard scenarios that make absolutely no sense beyond providing some challenges for me to beat. As such, understanding of the lore / immersion does not aid me in the solution.

You like things as they are and I do not insult you claiming that you are not educated enough to understand what makes a good / deep adventure. I also don't insult the people that claim that compeltely superimposed dialogues create immersion. Text is only immersive for me if it carries some consequence in the quest. Most of the time it does not.

I do not insult you or make snarky comments about your education (or lack of) because I am a polite person. Because regardless of my qualifications, I think everyone's opinion is valid. I can only try to explain what makes for good quest design for my taste and how inferno is NOT a good quest in that sense.

[Powskier]

I read absolutely nothing in this thread, but I'm amazed a thread about Inferno reaches 8 pages.

me too...i was originally pointing out that needing spells to work the flames was pretty much unnecessary....why would they make it a caster thing? yea there's wands scrolls...but really! who carries that stuff..so inferno becomes a wiki special(read up ahead or spend lots time wasted)

[bartharok]

Abandon this position of false superiority.

There is absolutely no clue regarding what path you should take. You just have to try and remember what you have tried until you find it. That is, the first time. Once you know the general idea you can aim in the correct direction.

This is not what is being debated. Yes, I can read the text that tells me I should mess with the torches, this is NOT the key difficulty of the quest. It would be really sad if it was.

The challenge of the quest is finding the right path and the only way of doing that is trial error. All the paths look the same, there are no clues regarding what direction you should take other than a general sense of direction.

This is a common stand on most quests in DDO. There are no clues inside the quest regarding the direction / tips on how to beat the quest smartly beyond metagaming. This is not rewarding understanding the lore given logic of the quest, its just blind trial error until metagaming takes care of it.

The best adventures I played in DnD were those that made sense. I was part of a world that made logical sense and I was introduding on it. Understanding mobs, their behavior, their lore and reasoning out the consequences of my actions was rewarded with better chances at succeeding.

This is NOT what is going on in DDO. The majority of quests are cardboard scenarios that make absolutely no sense beyond providing some challenges for me to beat. As such, understanding of the lore / immersion does not aid me in the solution.

You like things as they are and I do not insult you claiming that you are not educated enough to understand what makes a good / deep adventure. I also don't insult the people that claim that compeltely superimposed dialogues create immersion. Text is only immersive for me if it carries some consequence in the quest. Most of the time it does not.

I do not insult you or make snarky comments about your education (or lack of) because I am a polite person. Because regardless of my qualifications, I think everyone's opinion is valid. I can only try to explain what makes for good quest design for my taste and how inferno is NOT a good quest in that sense.

What the problem is, is that you want to get the information handed you, either in quest, or from the wiki, instead of spending time figuring it out for yourself. That is not good quest design (in my opinion).

As for text being immersive, in the example you give, the wiki would be more immersive for you than any amount of text in game.

One thing i do dislike is people using words without any proper understanding of what they mean. Lore means knowledge (more or less). Immersion means that you can imagine yourself into whatever. Neither necessarily means handing out solutions.

[Powskier]

Even if only running it once ever, random trial and error shouldn't be the only way to find one's way around. Some sort of clues or pattern to discern would be better. It is the players job to use the clues, the problem is that there aren't any clues there to figure out.

this^ d&d provides clues to puzzles...not ddo all the time though...

[BigErkyKid]

What the problem is, is that you want to get the information handed you, either in quest, or from the wiki, instead of spending time figuring it out for yourself. That is not good quest design (in my opinion).

As for text being immersive, in the example you give, the wiki would be more immersive for you than any amount of text in game.

One thing i do dislike is people using words without any proper understanding of what they mean. Lore means knowledge (more or less). Immersion means that you can imagine yourself into whatever. Neither necessarily means handing out solutions.

Figuring out for yourself in DDO just means trial and error, there isn't any deduction process beyond that. I do not want information handed to me and it cannot be inferred from anything I have said.

Not only you fail to understand my position but you attempt to make it sound like it is incoherent or plainly a demand to water down difficulty. Take some time reading what I post and whenever you want to talk without misrepresenting my position tell me.

Until them, I don't gain much knowing that you think I am the confused result of some bad education. I think you are an impolite person with no ability to discuss things constructively, but I don't make a point out of it.

[bartharok]

Figuring out for yourself in DDO just means trial and error, there isn't any deduction process beyond that. I do not want information handed to me and it cannot be inferred from anything I have said.

Not only you fail to understand my position but you attempt to make it sound like it is incoherent or plainly a demand to water down difficulty. Take some time reading what I post and whenever you want to talk without misrepresenting my position tell me.

Until them, I don't gain much knowing that you think I am the confused result of some bad education. I think you are an impolite person with no ability to discuss things constructively, but I don't make a point out of it.

You just made a point of it. Trial and error is a major part of any deductive process. You may wish to have the solution appear fully formed, but this is very rarely the case.

I didnt say that you are confused by bad education, btw. I meant that modern education feeds people facts, instead of making them figure out the whys.

[depositbox]

Step into my Tardis.

Don't worry, it's larger on the inside.

I can't prove I personally solved anything.

But i can prove someone solved without the wiki.

That person would be the one who wrote the wiki guide.

Someone solved every single quest for the first time.

Someone figured out the Crucible maze without any help.

Someone figured out what to do with the voice and ring in Von 5 on their own.

Someone did everything own their own at some point.

True story.

/tips wine glass

#rekt

[walkin_dude]

this^ d&d provides clues to puzzles...not ddo all the time though...

Is having an important chamber at each point of the compass a discernible pattern? I would say it is.

Is having to light torches on one side and extinguish them on the other side a pattern? Again, I think it is.

The first-time adventurers head in to the dungeon. They start in the big middle room. They poke around a bit and find these stone braziers which, once broken, transport them into an alternate plane-of-fire analog of their world. They find they can also get back to the normal dimension the same way. They see that some ways are open in one dimension that aren't open in the other. Eventually, a definite pattern emerges and they start to get the hang of it, allowing them to confront Cinnis.

There are plenty of brainless quests in ddo, but imo this is one of those few where there is actually something to figure out. It can't be a coincidence that any quest with that characteristic ends up being complained about.

Then again, it seems like people are happy to complain about pretty much anything. :-(

[walkin_dude]

I meant that modern education feeds people facts, instead of making them figure out the whys.

Problem is, try as we might to get the students to do otherwise, laws and such all but require lower educators (grades 1-12) to spoon-feed the students and teach to these standardized tests that are so important these days.

By the time they get to my classroom, the students are generally very spoiled. Usually the older people who have been displaced and are trying to get into a new career are much more willing to think, write, and discuss.

[BigErkyKid]

You just made a point of it. Trial and error is a major part of any deductive process. You may wish to have the solution appear fully formed, but this is very rarely the case.

I didnt say that you are confused by bad education, btw. I meant that modern education feeds people facts, instead of making them figure out the whys.


If there are no clues to speed the process for finding the solution IF you are careful and think smartly about it, finding a solution to a problem by trial and error is just tedious.

In inferno there are no clues that you could interpret to find out the path. Pure trial and error and aiming in a general direction. What are the clues? Is there anything you can deduce from the corridors regarding to guide your next move? Any patterns? Any lore based tip? There isn't.

It is not only inferno, it is the majority of quests in DDO. Puzzles and obstacles in general are there not because they make sense but to provide a challenge. As such, the solution cannot be given by an understanding of the lore of the dungeon (a troll lair or whatever it is) and some thinking. In a troll lair those things would have never existed or they know have never built their fortress like that.

Actually, regarding the education part, I just had this discussion recently. And I agree *gasp*. When I teach I spend half the class asking the students what they would do to solve the "problems" I present them, how to refine concepts and solutions, etc. They are not used to it. Some people tell me that it is too late by the time you hit college to change radically your attitude in class and towards education in general but I still think it makes a bit of a difference.

[BigErkyKid]

Problem is, try as we might to get the students to do otherwise, laws and such all but require lower educators (grades 1-12) to spoon-feed the students and teach to these standardized tests that are so important these days.

By the time they get to my classroom, the students are generally very spoiled. Usually the older people who have been displaced and are trying to get into a new career are much more willing to think, write, and discuss.

At every possible level you can teach the same in a different way.

When I was in college I tutored highschool students. I taught them whatever they needed to master to get their good grades. This didn't prevent me from trying to teach them how to reason things out.

At a college level you still have an approved curriculum to follow but the way you teach it / what you emphasize, makes a very big difference. Everyone knows that :P

[walkin_dude]

If there are no clues to speed the process for finding the solution IF you are careful and think smartly about it, finding a solution to a problem by trial and error is just tedious.

Well, it doesn't seem like most of the quests need additional illumination for quick completion.

For the specific case of inferno, I think that someone able to pick up on the patterns (I mentioned a couple a few posts ago) more quickly can gain the benefit you're talking about. Observation and deduction are the tools of the adventurer. I'm trying to think of what extra nudge could be included without just handing the solution over. This struggle is why people keep indicating that you want a "sparkly path" or whatever. I don't believe you want a sparkly path, but I also haven't been able to come up with a better idea. Mind you, there is a reason I did not pursue a career in game development. :)

[walkin_dude]

At every possible level you can teach the same in a different way.

When I was in college I tutored highschool students. I taught them whatever they needed to master to get their good grades. This didn't prevent me from trying to teach them how to reason things out.

At a college level you still have an approved curriculum to follow but the way you teach it / what you emphasize, makes a very big difference. Everyone knows that :P

Well said. :)

[BigErkyKid]

Well, it doesn't seem like most of the quests need additional illumination for quick completion.

For the specific case of inferno, I think that someone able to pick up on the patterns (I mentioned a couple a few posts ago) more quickly can gain the benefit you're talking about. Observation and deduction are the tools of the adventurer. I'm trying to think of what extra nudge could be included without just handing the solution over. This struggle is why people keep indicating that you want a "sparkly path" or whatever. I don't believe you want a sparkly path, but I also haven't been able to come up with a better idea. Mind you, there is a reason I did not pursue a career in game development. :)

Well the great thing about the gaming industry is that nowadays modding is huge. People who don't do this professionally but have an interest (and sometimes a background that helps them) are providing top quality entertainment sometimes with very limited tools and creativity.

I've had a blast trying to design incentives for sandbox mods to work. It is hard! But as an economist I like the challenge :P

Regarding what to do in DDO and inferno in particular, I don't have an specific answer. The starting to point, for me, would be to build quests that make sense. No more quests where you just put elements to challenge players. Quests should first be lore coherent, then you should think how to provide a fun experience out of it.

Funny enough, lore helps you a lot. How is a troll lair organized? What do trolls do in their bases? How is an evil cult going to build and protect their evil temple? What is the temple for? We have tons of DnD lore helping us make those calls. Now immersion means that players feel they are in a real evil temple. Whatever they have picked up in DDO through lore cues is actually helpful: it allows them to find ways to beat the challenge. If from a lore perspective it makes sense to have the altar say as the main room and all the rest of the temple underneath, then this should show in the quest. If it is understood that the evil gods life dwell in dark holes under the altar, then thats where they should be and where adventurers should head.

It does NOT make sense to have a highly used corridor filled with traps that will fry you the moment you step on it. At most, traps should have been a defensive mechanism that could be activated if something happens. And so on. This is what content designers should keep in mind to design good quests, if you ask me. DDO has plenty of incoherent dungeons that can only be solved by trial and error and metagaming and this breaks immersion IMHO.

[bartharok]

Actually, regarding the education part, I just had this discussion recently. And I agree *gasp*. When I teach I spend half the class asking the students what they would do to solve the "problems" I present them, how to refine concepts and solutions, etc. They are not used to it. Some people tell me that it is too late by the time you hit college to change radically your attitude in class and towards education in general but I still think it makes a bit of a difference.

Its not too late, its just a lot harder. I think the problem is the single solution system that gets fed to people. Finding a hundred solutions, and then adapting them to whatever is going on would be better, but its not something that can be taught. What it can be is encouraged. If you do that, my hats off for you.

[BigErkyKid]

Its not too late, its just a lot harder. I think the problem is the single solution system that gets fed to people. Finding a hundred solutions, and then adapting them to whatever is going on would be better, but its not something that can be taught. What it can be is encouraged. If you do that, my hats off for you.

Who knows. I always tell them that I can tell them the solution but that this is probably not going to help them much when it matters. That is, when they are going to be confronted with real unsolved situations. That applies both for academia and industry jobs.

The problem I see most of the times is that they do not believe they can actually contribute. They think that whatever they say is just wasted because they are always going to be wrong and sound naive. Nothing furthest from the truth. I often tell them that story about gauss figuring out how to add up all the numbers from 1 to 100.

Anyway, the other issue is that professors don't really have any incentives to do a good job teaching. In the US you have those liberal arts colleges and I think it is a great idea. But in most places you are judged by your research output and every minute devoted to better teaching makes you look weaker for tenure.

[bartharok]

Anyway, the other issue is that professors don't really have any incentives to do a good job teaching. In the US you have those liberal arts colleges and I think it is a great idea. But in most places you are judged by your research output and every minute devoted to better teaching makes you look weaker for tenure.

Hah. Its a bit better over here, but i still changed professions when i realized i was supposed to write drivel and then defend it at the cost of truth or be considered a bad academician.

[Chai]

me too...i was originally pointing out that needing spells to work the flames was pretty much unnecessary....why would they make it a caster thing? yea there's wands scrolls...but really! who carries that stuff..so inferno becomes a wiki special(read up ahead or spend lots time wasted)

Part of the issue here is the mentality of see a monster, kill a monster, in a linear fashion becoming the expected norm. People see the mephitis, kill them, then enter the room, and if they put two and two together by looking at their quest objectives, then realize they would have needed to use the mephitis to light the torches. Now they have to wait for them to re-spawn.

I like this quest because it highlights the major differences in how quests were designed in the past versus how they are designed now.

[Singular]

At a college level you still have an approved curriculum to follow but the way you teach it / what you emphasize, makes a very big difference. Everyone knows that :P

Not all colleges have "approved curriculum." Some do because the faculty members have gotten together and discussed what the into. classes should be about. Normally, if a department hires lecturers, they ask for a syllabus - and hire the lecturer based on the validity of the syllabus presented. So the actual content of any particular course is largely up to the prof/lecturer who developed it.

Two examples: The uni I work at taught a class in what I considered an outdated way. So I reorganized the class - and got lauded for it by one of the senior profs - and then, when I went to teach it again, was told by the secretary - the secretary! - that I couldn't do it my way. However, by this time, all of the younger profs had changed the class over to my reorganized version. So I ignored her and taught it the way I "knew" it should be taught.

For every other course I've taught, at this same uni, and actually at every other uni I've taught at, I've just handed them a syllabus. As accepted, as taught, no guidelines other than the ones I built.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

this^ d&d provides clues to puzzles...not ddo all the time though...




What puzzle in DDO has no clues?

[bartharok]

What puzzle in DDO has no clues?

The ones puzzled.

[Singular]

What the problem is, is that you want to get the information handed you, either in quest, or from the wiki, instead of spending time figuring it out for yourself. That is not good quest design (in my opinion).

As for text being immersive, in the example you give, the wiki would be more immersive for you than any amount of text in game.

One thing i do dislike is people using words without any proper understanding of what they mean. Lore means knowledge (more or less). Immersion means that you can imagine yourself into whatever. Neither necessarily means handing out solutions.

BigErkelyKid is just trying to say that quests should be designed around story. They should be internally coherent, the way a film is. In good films, every line, every distraction, every shot builds the story - likewise, a good quest should do the same.

DDO quests are quite good at teaching their internal mechanics. First you get a glimpse, then you have to do the same thing, but larger, tougher. Yet their not so good at matching quest layout to theme and story. For some, the quests do a fantastic job of it. LOD is a great example. The NPC meets you, tells you what's going to happen, then you go do it and - oh, no! - you find the dead apprentice right outside a den of baddies. So you know either 1) the main NPC is captured or 2) he is actually bad and plotting something. When you reach that little walkway, you spy him chatting with the enemy - proof!

So that's good story design. But in this case, the layout of the quest merely exists to push the story forward. Why is there a hallway overlooking the bad guy meeting place? Convenience of the story.

Now if we skip over to Necro 4 and Inferno, is there pre-amble that explains the dungeon design? Is there any reason given for the maze itself? Or the multidimensional nature of the maze? Or any suggestion whatsoever - from the story - that explains clockwise is a really good path to take?

Clearly building layout doesn't always have to be included in quest stories. It's more complete if they can fit that kind of detail in - more "ah, that totally makes sense!" but the reality is that building layout is simply not always a plot piece. Sometimes the baddie just inhabit caves/dungeons, whatever.

[Singular]

What puzzle in DDO has no clues?

Some of them are simply skill based - like the Shroud puzzles or the line puzzles of Von 5 (that are repeated all over the place). Those ones don't really have clues except the "you've done puzzles like this before. Now do them again!"

[BigErkyKid]

Not all colleges have "approved curriculum." Some do because the faculty members have gotten together and discussed what the into. classes should be about. Normally, if a department hires lecturers, they ask for a syllabus - and hire the lecturer based on the validity of the syllabus presented. So the actual content of any particular course is largely up to the prof/lecturer who developed it.

Two examples: The uni I work at taught a class in what I considered an outdated way. So I reorganized the class - and got lauded for it by one of the senior profs - and then, when I went to teach it again, was told by the secretary - the secretary! - that I couldn't do it my way. However, by this time, all of the younger profs had changed the class over to my reorganized version. So I ignored her and taught it the way I "knew" it should be taught.

For every other course I've taught, at this same uni, and actually at every other uni I've taught at, I've just handed them a syllabus. As accepted, as taught, no guidelines other than the ones I built.

I think this is very contingent on the country and level (undergraduate / graduate). But yes, there is flexibility everywhere if you really want to make a difference.

[Eth]

I can't prove I personally solved anything.

But i can prove someone solved without the wiki.

That person would be the one who wrote the wiki guide.

...


Weak proof. What if the designer of the dungeon wrote the wiki page? ;)

[BigErkyKid]

BigErkelyKid is just trying to say that quests should be designed around story. They should be internally coherent, the way a film is. In good films, every line, every distraction, every shot builds the story - likewise, a good quest should do the same.

DDO quests are quite good at teaching their internal mechanics. First you get a glimpse, then you have to do the same thing, but larger, tougher. Yet their not so good at matching quest layout to theme and story. For some, the quests do a fantastic job of it. LOD is a great example. The NPC meets you, tells you what's going to happen, then you go do it and - oh, no! - you find the dead apprentice right outside a den of baddies. So you know either 1) the main NPC is captured or 2) he is actually bad and plotting something. When you reach that little walkway, you spy him chatting with the enemy - proof!

So that's good story design. But in this case, the layout of the quest merely exists to push the story forward. Why is there a hallway overlooking the bad guy meeting place? Convenience of the story.

Now if we skip over to Necro 4 and Inferno, is there pre-amble that explains the dungeon design? Is there any reason given for the maze itself? Or the multidimensional nature of the maze? Or any suggestion whatsoever - from the story - that explains clockwise is a really good path to take?

Clearly building layout doesn't always have to be included in quest stories. It's more complete if they can fit that kind of detail in - more "ah, that totally makes sense!" but the reality is that building layout is simply not always a plot piece. Sometimes the baddie just inhabit caves/dungeons, whatever.

Yup. For me, dungeons make a much better experience if it is central to them to be lore coherent. That way it actually rewards the immersion factor, as opposed of something that you really need to try to force into it.

In any case, if it was for me, adventurers would seldom ever have enough firepower to just pawn everything in a quest. That alone would make for a lot more interesting dynamics.

But we simply aren't used to these kind of quests in DDO.

PS: BTW, I do not like LOD. For me immersion means interacting with the story, not spectating it. It does not matter one beat for the solution of the dungeon (KILL KILL KILL) whether gnomon is a bad guy or not.

[viktorserak]

I would love to see those "give me trillion hints and make this game easier for me or it is a bad design ppl" finish In the Demon Den quest pre-Motu :-D

[PermaBanned]

Since when has the problem been reading the DM text in inferno? The issue is not figuring out you got to extinguish the flame, rather, finding the path. And there is absolutely no lore / context based clue on how to do that.

But after me and several other people saying that in dozens of posts the fact that you still insist on making this comment (or the people mentioning sparkling paths) just points out that you are not out for an honest discussion.

There is no path, there are multiple routes to completion. The wiki path is simply the most efficient one when soloing or playing in a group that sticks together. Did you know that a group can split up and complete the quest even faster? This would not be possible if there were a single path that needed to be followed and not deviated from, but that's not what Inferno is.

You want an honest discussion? Here's honesty: every quest in the game is 100% completable without the wiki or any foreknowledge - and Inferno is no exception. Does this mean they can all be successfully soloed on the first run through in a time efficient manor? No. It means you can go in, try and possibly fail then try again making some preparation for the circumstance that caused your failure. "Next time, I'll bring a jump potion." "Next time, I'll bring people/hires to stand on those plates." "Next time..."

Being my first online game, I played this for over a year before I learned about the forums and I was nearly two years into the game before I first opened the wiki. There's not a single quest I've read the wiki about before completing it at least once. Was it fast and efficient? No, but neither was it impossible. In many cases I tried, failed, used my brain and learned from those failures. For some reason that process seems unacceptable to many of today's players - and that's honestly a shame.

[BigErkyKid]

There is no path, there are multiple routes to completion. The wiki path is simply the most efficient one when soloing or playing in a group that sticks together. Did you know that a group can split up and complete the quest even faster? This would not be possible if there were a single path that needed to be followed and not deviated from, but that's not what Inferno is.

You want an honest discussion? Here's honesty: every quest in the game is 100% completable without the wiki or any foreknowledge - and Inferno is no exception. Does this mean they can all be successfully soloed on the first run through in a time efficient manor? No. It means you can go in, try and possibly fail then try again making some preparation for the circumstance that caused your failure. "Next time, I'll bring a jump potion." "Next time, I'll bring people/hires to stand on those plates." "Next time..."

Being my first online game, I played this for over a year before I learned about the forums and I was nearly two years into the game before I first opened the wiki. There's not a single quest I've read the wiki about before completing it at least once. Was it fast and efficient? No, but neither was it impossible. In many cases I tried, failed, used my brain and learned from those failures. For some reason that process seems unacceptable to many of today's players - and that's honestly a shame.

We are well beyond this point in the discussion. Have to catch up :P

[Singular]

Yup. For me, dungeons make a much better experience if it is central to them to be lore coherent. That way it actually rewards the immersion factor, as opposed of something that you really need to try to force into it.

In any case, if it was for me, adventurers would seldom ever have enough firepower to just pawn everything in a quest. That alone would make for a lot more interesting dynamics.

But we simply aren't used to these kind of quests in DDO.

PS: BTW, I do not like LOD. For me immersion means interacting with the story, not spectating it. It does not matter one beat for the solution of the dungeon (KILL KILL KILL) whether gnomon is a bad guy or not.

Yeah. These are certainly not choose your own adventure novels!

Given that it's a themepark MMO, I'm not really sure they can design a quest where your decisions affect the storyline. We're basically in any quest as the hired thugs or vigilantes. We're just there to kill peons and most bosses, except the few we simply beat up to stop them. Then our characters exit and the entire story resets to zero. The only thing that changes is our characters via minute progression that has been laid out in entirety by someone else. So...we're at best exploring someone else's creation, not creating ourselves.

[BigErkyKid]

Yeah. These are certainly not choose your own adventure novels!

Given that it's a themepark MMO, I'm not really sure they can design a quest where your decisions affect the storyline. We're basically in any quest as the hired thugs or vigilantes. We're just there to kill peons and most bosses, except the few we simply beat up to stop them. Then our characters exit and the entire story resets to zero. The only thing that changes is our characters via minute progression that has been laid out in entirety by someone else. So...we're at best exploring someone else's creation, not creating ourselves.

Well, suppose that the goal was the same, but actually, the quest instance was designed as a real undercover temple. Then you would have clues regarding the actual design of the temple and you would need to figure out how to get to the boss you want to capture. Where could he be? Where does it makes sense for him to be?

Then you can fill the quest with plenty of cultists doing their own thing, perhaps they also opened the door to the sewers and something came in...something that might not like cultists.

If adventurers did not have as easily enough firepower to pawn the entire temple, they might need to think how to get to the end point more smartly.

It is not necessarily about influencing the end outcome, rather about making achieving that outcome more of an adventure.

[Erdrique]

It is interesting to read the responses in this thread. I have to admit, I didn't pick up on the clues to lighting and putting out the torches until I accidentally stumbled upon it when we were fighting mobs in the torch rooms. And I also admit that it never occurred to me to use the mephits to light/extinguish the torches either until well after the quest was first put out. Some things you just don't pick up on, and for me this was one of them. I doubt I would have picked up on this through any other way besides by accident, unless of course somewhere it specifically stated to use the mephits.

With that said, I do enjoy Inferno, now that I know how to run it. But it is a quest that does require some out of the box thinking and it probably could use some more hints as to how it operates.

[stoerm]

We've all been there. I am frustrated by a puzzle and hate the quest until I learn it, at which point it becomes my new favourite. So ...

I want to complain about the puzzles in Shroud
Don't link me a solver I'm too proud
There's nothing to help me figure it out
What were the devs thinking about?
Just solve it down?
Shut up you clown

I want to complain about the maze in Crucible
That there bugger's nigh impossible
Prey on the Hunter? The maze keeps changing
I can't even think of it without forum raging
A puzzle in Enter the Kobold?
This is getting old

I want to complain about the puzzle in Monastery
No, not the windpuffing jiggery pokery
The end fight mess with Engine of Destruction
It leaves me dead with no satisfaction
No SOS without flagging?
Prepare for complaining!

I want to complain about the puzzle in Reaver
Another obstacle that gives me the fever
It's a bunch of bollocks, no tips or clues
Just leaves me crying with those DDO blues
Another solver? You're so kind
I'm no MasterMind

I want to complain about everything in Abbot
The whole raid's a puzzle and I'm in no habbit
Of using the wiki or practicing Mario
So I pine for my dates with Sully or
Lailat: no maze in DQ
It's a raid I can do!

https://i.imgflip.com/e4aw8.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/e4aw8)

[bartharok]

Yeah. These are certainly not choose your own adventure novels!

Given that it's a themepark MMO, I'm not really sure they can design a quest where your decisions affect the storyline. We're basically in any quest as the hired thugs or vigilantes. We're just there to kill peons and most bosses, except the few we simply beat up to stop them. Then our characters exit and the entire story resets to zero. The only thing that changes is our characters via minute progression that has been laid out in entirety by someone else. So...we're at best exploring someone else's creation, not creating ourselves.

As discussed before, creating the story is 99% likely to create garbage. Would be nice if there was a competition where people could send in their ideas and the best would be made into quests by turbine. Unfortunately it wouldnt solve much, except for the one submitting the winning idea.

[PermaBanned]

me too...i was originally pointing out that needing spells to work the flames was pretty much unnecessary....why would they make it a caster thing? yea there's wands scrolls...but really! who carries that stuff..so inferno becomes a wiki special(read up ahead or spend lots time wasted)

Spells (including wands & scrolls) are not needed, they simply make it faster. The mobs in the dungeon will light/extinguish the torches for you. You can learn this either by accident (noticing that fire breathing mephit lit a torch when it attacked you) or by logical deduction (hmm... I need to light a torch, and there's this fire breathing monster over there...).

[stoerm]

Powskier came to complain on the forums after reading the wiki. He didn't even try the quest first.

Not worth a 200-post thread.


Spells (including wands & scrolls) are not needed

As was pointed out in posts #2, #3, #4, #10 and many other times in this thread.

This is how it feels to be trolled.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Weak proof. What if the designer of the dungeon wrote the wiki page? ;)

Or aliens!

Because lack of any proof is always proof of aliens. ;)

[Powskier]

OP: Do you run raids? Do you enjoy them?
sure.raids are great

[bartharok]

Or aliens!

Because lack of any proof is always proof of aliens. ;)

Any proof that you cant understand IS alien. Thus anything you cant understand must be caused by aliens.

[Powskier]

90% of the quests in this game and 99.99% of quests in most games are linear.

Run along the only path provided and slay the monsters indicated to win.

This quest provides something different.

If you don't like that and want a linear quest then select something else.

Some of us like quests that require some figuring out.

inferno dosen't require figuring anything..just trial and error..there are no hints or pattern to be enlightened to

[PermaBanned]

inferno dosen't require figuring anything..just trial and error..there are no hints or pattern to be enlightened to

"North" "West" "Ignite" "Extinguish" Monsters that breath fire and blow gusts of wind, light on one side and extinguish on the other...

... Nope, no clues or patterns what so ever... I guess the folks that played it upon first release and later wrote the wiki just got lucky...

[Powskier]

I think what the OP is complaining about is a superficial level of complication.


That's what's OP is decrying. Artificial barriers to completion. It's really not that complicated a quest, for all those saying so: there's an artificial barrier to completion.

all they need to do to make this quest fair ,is put a message in the quest givers dialogue...''you will need to be able to light and extinguish flames'' to complete mission.If i didnt wiki that info, I'd still be in there tryin.

[bartharok]

all they need to do to make this quest fair ,is put a message in the quest givers dialogue...''you will need to be able to light and extinguish flames'' to complete mission.If i didnt wiki that info, I'd still be in there tryin.

As has been said before: YOU DONT NEED TO BE ABLE TO LIGHT OR EXTINGUISH THEM. All the tools necessary are in there.

[BigErkyKid]

aaaand back to the discussion over whether the torches are too high and the textures odd in the quest.

[Dandonk]

all they need to do to make this quest fair ,is put a message in the quest givers dialogue...''you will need to be able to light and extinguish flames'' to complete mission.If i didnt wiki that info, I'd still be in there tryin.

The quest is completely able to be finished with any character using the tools available inside the quest. You do not need any special class abilities of any kind.

[phillymiket]

all they need to do to make this quest fair ,is put a message in the quest givers dialogue...''you will need to be able to light and extinguish flames'' to complete mission.If i didnt wiki that info, I'd still be in there tryin.

That would be a nice mssg at the start for sure.

However, the mobs spawn and re-spawn near the torches.
So even if you didn't say to yourself, "Say, there are flying leaf-blowers and flying Bunsen-burners in this quest and I just happen to need some torches blown out and lit.", chances are one of the Mephits would light or extinguish a torch on their own

That has got to be a "Eureka!" moment even for least observant among us.


inferno dosen't require figuring anything..just trial and error..there are no hints or pattern to be enlightened to

Listen, we are not allowed to use the "T" word around here anymore.

But you keep saying the same thing over and over.

Despite so many pointing out where your claims are just untrue.

Still, you come back with the same thing,

It makes me wonder whether you are even serious in your opinion or just stirring the pot.

I never understood stirring the pot. It's not hard to do. Anyone can do it.

[redoubt]

all they need to do to make this quest fair ,is put a message in the quest givers dialogue...''you will need to be able to light and extinguish flames'' to complete mission.If i didnt wiki that info, I'd still be in there tryin.

Your clue would not get people to bring the correct wand/scrolls or even memorize the right spells on a caster. You get lucky the first time or use the resources in the dungeon (of which there are plenty.)

Maybe they could also add:

You will need the following supplies: restoration potions, cure potions, curse removal potions, weapons with BOTH silver AND holy or good to break DR.
To win you should go left and skip the cool lore on the right.
When you get to the boss you will need the info from the path on the right, but since you skipped that you should beat him down with the silver and holy weapon. Here is one for free. Please choose the exact one from this free chest I have for you here at the quest giver that fits your fighting style.
Don't forget deathward and deathblock. Oh, you don't have those? Here I will cast them on you. You're welcome.
Oh yeah, if this isn't enough, when you walk in, there is a guy on the left. If you ask him, he will complete the quest for you. He is part of the silver flame and its his job to kill vampires. You're welcome.

Yes, this is mostly sarcasm, but wow... this thread amazes me.

[bartharok]

you are so offbase....did you even read a post here? how does torch lighting have anything to do with raids

If you cant play through inferno because you have to learn from someone, read the solution or find out the solution by trial and error, you are not likely to enjoy a raid that requires the same.

[PermaBanned]

Well, suppose that the goal was the same, but actually, the quest instance was designed as a real undercover temple. Then you would have clues regarding the actual design of the temple and you would need to figure out how to get to the boss you want to capture. Where could he be? Where does it makes sense for him to be?

Then you can fill the quest with plenty of cultists doing their own thing, perhaps they also opened the door to the sewers and something came in...something that might not like cultists.

If adventurers did not have as easily enough firepower to pawn the entire temple, they might need to think how to get to the end point more smartly.

It is not necessarily about influencing the end outcome, rather about making achieving that outcome more of an adventure.

In most of my gaming experience, lore provides the whys of where you're going and what you're doing. It gives clues as to a monster's special strengths & weaknesses - but only rarely does lore provide a floor plan, or navigational guide inside a temple or castle and almost never for navigating a cave system. What does a Troll Lair look like? Probably a mess, beyond that I doubt any two are the same. Having explored one is unlikely to give clues to exploring another. Also, lore rarely prepares you for surprises ("oh ****! The cult leader's a Vampire! I better get out of here and come back prepared to deal with that...")

Unless a particular cult or religion always follows a standard layout, how would lore tell you where to go inside a temple? Let's say you and your companions have been hired to find and confront an evil bishop, who secretly operates his evil schemes out of a church. Unless this particular religion is known for always building to a specific design, would lore tell you where in the church to find his offices or private chambers? Would lore tell you where to search for the secret/hidden door to the location where he conducts his evil & nefarious schemes? Is it in the office? The basement or bell tower? Would lore tell you how to open said secret/hidden door? Lore might give clues, like "I saw him go into the basement but when I looked for him he was nowhere to be found," but this could also easily be a distraction - did he go through a secret door, or use that as a discrete location to conjure a portal to his actual secret room located elsewhere in the building?

Maybe you're not there to confront the bishop, but rather to obtain an artifact or proof of his nefarious doings - while the lore/story tells you to search the church, does it tell you to go in and turn right, follow the hall and open the 3rd door on the left then go to the staircase leading down, on the second level go north 30' and turn west; that's where you'll find the artifact? No, and if it did the rest of the building's floor plan would be superfolous. Instead you have to go in and explore, wander & discover.

[Powskier]

We've all been there. I am frustrated by a puzzle and hate the quest until I learn it, at which point it becomes my new favourite. So ...

I want to complain about the puzzles in Shroud
Don't link me a solver I'm too proud
There's nothing to help me figure it out
What were the devs thinking about?
Just solve it down?
Shut up you clown

I want to complain about the maze in Crucible
That there bugger's nigh impossible
Prey on the Hunter? The maze keeps changing
I can't even think of it without forum raging
A puzzle in Enter the Kobold?
This is getting old

I want to complain about the puzzle in Monastery
No, not the windpuffing jiggery pokery
The end fight mess with Engine of Destruction
It leaves me dead with no satisfaction
No SOS without flagging?
Prepare for complaining!

I want to complain about the puzzle in Reaver
Another obstacle that gives me the fever
It's a bunch of bollocks, no tips or clues
Just leaves me crying with those DDO blues
Another solver? You're so kind
I'm no MasterMind

I want to complain about everything in Abbot
The whole raid's a puzzle and I'm no habbit
Of using the wiki or practicing Mario
So I pine for my dates with Sully or
Lailat: no maze in DQ
It's a raid I can do!

https://i.imgflip.com/e4aw8.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/e4aw8)

very poetic...to bad inferno isn't really a puzzle;just a blindside if you didnt research it 1st(as my original point...why have these dungeons that have impassable goals if a player is not informed ahead of time?) this dungeon smells like 1st time fail for 99%, if they didnt read up on it.

[bartharok]

very poetic...to bad inferno isn't really a puzzle;just a blindside if you didnt research it 1st(as my original point...why have these dungeons that have impassable goals if a player is not informed ahead of time?) this dungeon smells like 1st time fail for 99%, if they didnt read up on it.

Its up to you if you wish a 100% success rate. But if you do, dont go wanting challenge.

[Lonnbeimnech]

In most of my gaming experience, lore provides the whys of where you're going and what you're doing. It gives clues as to a monster's special strengths & weaknesses - but only rarely does lore provide a floor plan, or navigational guide inside a temple or castle and almost never for navigating a cave system. What does a Troll Lair look like? Probably a mess, beyond that I doubt any two are the same. Having explored one is unlikely to give clues to exploring another. Also, lore rarely prepares you for surprises ("oh ****! The cult leader's a Vampire! I better get out of here and come back prepared to deal with that...")

Unless a particular cult or religion always follows a standard layout, how would lore tell you where to go inside a temple? Let's say you and your companions have been hired to find and confront an evil bishop, who secretly operates his evil schemes out of a church. Unless this particular religion is known for always building to a specific design, would lore tell you where in the church to find his offices or private chambers? Would lore tell you where to search for the secret/hidden door to the location where he conducts his evil & nefarious schemes? Is it in the office? The basement or bell tower? Would lore tell you how to open said secret/hidden door? Lore might give clues, like "I saw him go into the basement but when I looked for him he was nowhere to be found," but this could also easily be a distraction - did he go through a secret door, or use that as a discrete location to conjure a portal to his actual secret room located elsewhere in the building?

Maybe you're not there to confront the bishop, but rather to obtain an artifact or proof of his nefarious doings - while the lore/story tells you to search the church, does it tell you to go in and turn right, follow the hall and open the 3rd door on the left then go to the staircase leading down, on the second level go north 30' and turn west; that's where you'll find the artifact? No, and if it did the rest of the building's floor plan would be superfolous. Instead you have to go in and explore, wander & discover.
There would be a lore based clue... like the evil bishop would be known for leaving a flashing yellow arrow on the floor of the main chamber pointing to his current location.

[Powskier]

Powskier came to complain on the forums after reading the wiki. He didn't even try the quest first.

Not worth a 200-post thread.







true; i learned long ago; waste 2-3 hrs ;or ,read up on it 1st....see if it is your cup of tea,or a group special. sure glad i read up on inferno,glad you like it

[PermaBanned]

you are so offbase....did you even read a post here? how does torch lighting have anything to do with raids

It has to do with being able to deduce from the clues provided what needs doing and how to do it. Torches need lighting -> mephits breath fire; Asteroids need to be broken -> boulders laying on the floor. "The rocks just fell on me and I died! Argh! There's no clue in here on what to do!"

[Powskier]

Being my first online game, I played this for over a year before I learned about the forums and I was nearly two years into the game before I first opened the wiki. There's not a single quest I've read the wiki about before completing it at least once. Was it fast and efficient? No, but neither was it impossible. In many cases I tried, failed, used my brain and learned from those failures. For some reason that process seems unacceptable to many of today's players - and that's honestly a shame.

nice work;you i believe.I tried that route;i wanted to learn them all by playing ,originally.It was real fun for about 85-90% of the game/10-15% was a real arse burner with some good, tough lessons learned.

[Lonnbeimnech]

It has to do with being able to deduce from the clues provided what needs doing and how to do it. Torches need lighting -> mephits breath fire; Asteroids need to be broken -> boulders laying on the floor. "The rocks just fell on me and I died! Argh! There's no clue in here on what to do!"

Auto-run while holding the left mouse button doesn't work too well in there either.

[bartharok]

true; i learned long ago; waste 2-3 hrs ;or ,read up on it 1st....see if it is your cup of tea,or a group special. sure glad i read up on inferno,glad you like it

You cant know if something is your cup of tea or not by reading about it. But do as you wish...

[Alternative]

Dude, the only way to "fail" inferno is to give up, portals respawn, mephits/elementals respawn. You can lock yourself out of rest shrines if you kill an acolyte in wrong place but you cannot lock your way to torches. Again, only way to fail is to give up, die, or lack wits to find a way. Sometimes a quest just defeats the player.

[stoerm]

inferno isn't really a puzzle;

Yes it is. It's just not a single room. It's not even unique in scale, difficulty or in that it requires you (a) to know it, (b) use a solver/wiki, or (c) to figure it out at great length to complete the quest. Almost every raid is like this.

- Figure out (or memorize/use wiki/group up) how to move through the cubicles to open the forcewall or you fail the quest: Enter the Kobold
- Figure out (or memorize/use wiki/group up) how to navigate the entire map or fail the quest: The Pit
- Figure out (or memorize/use wiki/group up) how to find a route through the portals to each torch room or you fail the quest: Inferno of the Damned
- etc. etc.

Try again. I'm sure you'll find some hair to split.

Have you even tried the quest yet? Just do what everyone else does to learn a raid or tough quest: group up and run the quest with people who know it about 5-15 times. Then go back and read the wiki, and it will start to fall into place. If it doesn't don't worry, there are many others who can't do it either. I just figured it out myself a couple weeks ago (thanks Mitheriana of Cannith for the tips).

[Powskier]

Yes it is. It's just not a single room. It's not even unique in scale, difficulty or in that it requires you (a) to know it, (b) use a solver/wiki, or (c) to figure it out at great length to complete the quest.

- Figure out (or memorize/use wiki/group up) how to move through the cubicles to open the forcewall or you fail the quest: Enter the Kobold
- Figure out (or memorize/use wiki/group up) how to navigate the entire map or fail the quest: The Pit
- Figure out (or memorize/use wiki/group up) how to find a route through the portals to each torch room or you fail the quest: Inferno of the Damned
- etc. etc.

Try again. I'm sure you'll find some hair to split.

Have you even tried the quest yet? Just do what everyone else does: group up and run the quest with people who know it about 5-15 times. Then go back and read the wiki, and it will start to fall into place. If it doesn't don't worry, there are many others who can't do it either. I just figured it out myself a couple weeks ago (thanks Mitheriana of Cannith for the tips).

interesting how opinions vary in this dungeon....many say it is not a puzzle,no special requirements...others say it is a puzzle that requires trial....surely both cant be right? I like to learn the quest on my own,so to not impede a group usually.

[bartharok]

interesting how opinions vary in this dungeon....many say it is not a puzzle,no special requirements...others say it is a puzzle that requires trial....surely both cant be right? I like to learn the quest on my own,so to not impede a group usually.

Oh, if you enter with a group you wont be likely to impede them because you dont know it, just follow them and dont kill the mephits unless given the go-ahead.

As to whether its a puzzle or not, it depends on your mindset.

[phillymiket]

Yes it is. It's just not a single room. It's not even unique in scale, difficulty or in that it requires you (a) to know it, (b) use a solver/wiki, or (c) to figure it out at great length to complete the quest. Almost every raid is like this.

- Figure out (or memorize/use wiki/group up) how to move through the cubicles to open the forcewall or you fail the quest: Enter the Kobold
- Figure out (or memorize/use wiki/group up) how to navigate the entire map or fail the quest: The Pit
- Figure out (or memorize/use wiki/group up) how to find a route through the portals to each torch room or you fail the quest: Inferno of the Damned
- etc. etc.

Try again. I'm sure you'll find some hair to split.

Have you even tried the quest yet? Just do what everyone else does to learn a raid or tough quest: group up and run the quest with people who know it about 5-15 times. Then go back and read the wiki, and it will start to fall into place. If it doesn't don't worry, there are many others who can't do it either. I just figured it out myself a couple weeks ago (thanks Mitheriana of Cannith for the tips).

Hey, I decided to take your sage advice from post #198.

Maybe you and all should take your advice as well.

At this point it's clear we are simply providing larfs for an unnamed poster who's at home cutting school.

That, or he's switched to "T-Mode" after realizing how silly the original complaint was, and now is on some misguided quest to save face by acting as if he's in "T-Mode".

Either way, I'm done here.

Carry on if you wish, I'm going to look for a "This guy didn't put an item I wanted up for roll" thread to argue about for 10 pages.

:-D

[stoerm]

Hey, I decided to take your sage advice from post #198.

I know. I'm a sucker.

But somebody is wrong on the internet and I can make them see the light, I know I can! <Giant seer voice>Just a few more ... posts</Giant seer voice>

:D

[bartharok]

I know. I'm a sucker.

But somebody is wrong on the internet and I can make them see the light, I know I can! <Giant seer voice>Just a few more ... posts</Giant seer voice>

:D

Never surrender!

[Dandonk]

Never surrender!

Never give up!

[Qhualor]

I know. I'm a sucker.

But somebody is wrong on the internet and I can make them see the light, I know I can! <Giant seer voice>Just a few more ... posts</Giant seer voice>

:D

"You can't post anything on the internet that isn't true"

Herbert Hoover

[Cordovan]

Far too many insults, and too much fighting, for this thread to stay open.