A sneak peek at Update 24’s dungeons … and beyond

[Uska]

Sev, I am very surprised at the decision to launch more low level (CR26) content. I could have sworn that you guys were done with that phase, and would from now on churn out endgame stuff.

What happened? This is going backwards.

Not for everyone wants end game level stuff

[Uska]

Since forum opinion is really only the minority of players that use the forums frequently and the Player's Council is only a minority of players (even if supposedly a wide range of playstyles etc) would it be possible for the dev's to put a question or poll on log-in, so that maybe once a week or once a month you log-in to the game and answer a player opinion question. At least on log-in would make sure that all players see it, and if they have an opinion about it may be motivated to share that opinion.

For example, on log-in:
Yes or No Would you like to see Anauroch in 2015?

or

How would you prioritize cosmetics, with 1 being most important and 5 being least? *1 *2 *3 *4 *5

or

Which class needs updated next (after barbarian)? *Artificier *Druid *Favored Soul (All 3 chosen for only having two enhancement trees.)

or

Which heroic pack would you like to see Epic-ed next? *Shavarath *Vale *Titan *None prefer ALL new content

Although some might be bothered if they did this it would best way to get a true feel for what people want

[Aelonwy]

Well these are amongst my favourites after 4 years playing this game - The quests I'll happily run again and again and again:

Prove Your Worth {Heroic}
The Legend of Two Toed Tobias {Heroic}
Gwylan's Stand
Tomb of the Shadow Guard
Tomb of the Shadow Knight
The Xorian Cypher
Tomb of the Tormented
Tempest Spine
Relic of a Sovereign Past
Purge the Fallen Shrine
Chains of Flame
PoP

I guess that just shows how different some people's opinions can be, the only one on your list that i look forward to running on each character is Gwylan's Stand. I really hate the Necropolis quests, every single one, but I look forward to Shan-to-Kor, Stormcleave Outpost, Snitch, Partycrashers, Chronoscope, Black Loch, Storm the Beaches, Irestone Inlet, Into the Deep, The Prisoner, both Droaam packs, Madstone Crater, everything but Sinister Storage in the first Madness pack, and everything but the Lord of Eyes in the second, Ritual Sacrifice and Shroud, I Dream of Jeets and the Dreaming Dark (even though i dislike jumping.) I also look forward to most wilderness areas.

Actually looking back over the list the most common thread appears to be quests with an open-air feel to them, or quests with twisted mind-screw storylines.

[Braegan]

Not for everyone wants end game level stuff

End Game stuff is not only what is lacking in the game right now (I.E. we don't need new lowbie quests, there is enough xp to once and done and skip some on the way, this is not true of Epic) but is also what the Devs have said the focus is going to be to work on building an endgame. Cetus has a valid reason for his question.

[Qhualor]

End Game stuff is not only what is lacking in the game right now (I.E. we don't need new lowbie quests, there is enough xp to once and done and skip some on the way, this is not true of Epic) but is also what the Devs have said the focus is going to be to work on building an endgame. Cetus has a valid reason for his question.

this is true, but in order to have an end game Turbine needs to get a grip on what is actually happening that is preventing end game to actually materialize. adding more quests wont make a difference at any level range as long as Turbine doesn't do anything about the thousands of dollars they are losing daily, properly address incentives and properly address casualization. until they get a better handle on these things, there will never be an end game.

[Braegan]

this is true, but in order to have an end game Turbine needs to get a grip on what is actually happening that is preventing end game to actually materialize. adding more quests wont make a difference at any level range as long as Turbine doesn't do anything about the thousands of dollars they are losing daily, properly address incentives and properly address casualization. until they get a better handle on these things, there will never be an end game.

Good points and they need to be addressed while at the same time keeping word and releasing End Game level content. One without the other isn't going to fix the lack of End Game, but going back and not doing one when you said you would doesn't help the case.

[Cetus]

Not for everyone wants end game level stuff

But don't you think that we have enough content in that level range? And, that endgame content suits everybody at some point throughout their gaming path?

If you accept these two statements then I don't see why you wouldn't want endgame content.

[silisav]

10-13 is some of the fastest and easiest exp in the GAME because that's when you run Shadow Crypt and Vault of Night flagging, not to mention Red Fens, Dreams of Insanity, Sands sides, Tempest Spine, the Vault of Night RAID, etc. So this is plain nonsense.

If you do not mind check the comments previous to mine. A lot of people said that it is better to have more quests for lvl 10-12 (I said 10-13) instead of creating another 18 lvl as there are more than enough already. How often do you see people running von on heroic and how many of those times do you have a char at that lvl flagged so that you can run with them?
My point is for a life 3 and further char it is tougher to accumulate xp at that level than after 15 especially after changing the xp curve and I believe that at that levels more quests are needed. However in the end of the day everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[fmalfeas]

My take on 'end game' stuff is that it needs to be done in recognition of the upcoming (eventual) cap at 30. They need to reach a point where the quests can /relatively/ 'plateau' in difficulty by their stories. I don't mean 'never get challenged again' I mean that the big fight in the first quest in a story arc isn't just as hard as the last quest's non-raid fight in the arc against the villain that the first boss is terrified of. If everything is level 28-30 already, they're painting themselves into a corner.

But look closely at what they've done instead in epic content, even including epicfied old stuff.

We've banished a named succubus back to Shavarath after destroying all her works. That's an enemy primed.
We've banished the Demon Queen, banishing the named marilith back to Shavarath. Another, more powerful enemy primed, and they could readily work together to seek vengeance in a later chain.
We've freed the Lord of Blades from Quori control, but in the process, we also bested him in battle, and he's not a humble or forgiving type. So that's more enemies, though fortunately they'll hate each other as well.
What we've done to Shavarath's devil generals certainly has us on a shortlist of targets amongst the Baatezu, and there's no telling when they'll move against us.
We've preserved the remaining fragment of Mystra, and in the process wounded a VERY powerful goddess in her own home. She *will* seek revenge, guaranteed.
We've struck down 2 red Wyrms, and a Shadow Dracolich, both desecrating their 'faith' and setting back the plans of the Cult of the Dragon. That's not going to end peacefully.
We tangled with the Zhentarim, and that never stops with just one encounter.
And now, we go into round 2 with the Black Abbot, and entangle Lady Vol...we're likely tangled up in her plan to conquer and do something to Dolurh...destroy it?

And upcoming, round 2 with the Daelkyr, incarnate gods of madness.
Since Lloth drilled through Eberron's crystal sphere, we appear to be getting more linked to the multiverse, which can be good and bad. (I promise you, if a Mercykiller ever found us, it would attack, even paladin vs paladin, because none of us are sin-free...and fighting a Mercykiller is not pleasant.)

All of these are completely viable leadins for future chains. What I see isn't them failing to create an endgame. I see them building a solid foundation for a new endgame that isn't like most games, where you have a handful of raids, and a couple of zones, until next year's expansion. They're setting the stage for a diverse mix of content, built off the stuff that's come before. They can turn all those unfinished threads into things truly worthy of their story.

After all, wouldn't you say that invading Dolurh, either against or for Lady Vol, should be 100% endgame material? Taking on the Netherese, some of the most powerful wizards in the entire multiverse, in their home turf, AND the Phaerimm, the things that nearly destroyed them once before? The true fury of a multiversal greater deity? Drawing the attention and ire of a bloody multiversal Creator god? (Read: Tiamat).

The lights were up long ago. What I see, somewhat optimistically, I admit, is that now they've set up the camera. Sometime in the relatively near future, I hope we get to hear them call out 'ACTION!'

[droid327]

I just want to chime in with the other anti-Xoriat players. Aside from maybe platform jumpers like The Pit, nothing in the game I detest more than Xoriat missions. The entire premise of Xoriat content is it renders the strengths of your character, that you've spent so long building up, pointless. Beholders that disable half your abilities and disable almost all heals...instakills (either true instakills or just crazy-big alpha strikes) that make the missions far too stochastic; random chance of guaranteed death isn't fun. Puzzles that aren't challenging, just arbitrarily difficult with things like endless respawns. It often seems like the design philosophy is "lets see how many random and pointless hoops we can make them jump through just to be weird". Scaling on Elite that's much harsher than non-Xoriat quests, since Xoriat quests by design are wars of attrition (ie the longer you stay in quest, the higher the odds that something random turns against you and you die)...

Essentially, you're forced to play an entirely different sub-game within the game, one that's much more random than the rest of the game and honestly just not much fun for me.

[Full_Bleed]

TToEE at level 7 coincides with Vet II. So in that regard it is well placed for new players to get right to it (much like the original xp stones and iconics are positioned to get new players right into the FR content.)

Some other random thoughts and questions-

I would rather have 5 one hour adventures than 15 ten minute adventures make up the Temple. The ToEE should not be fast-food. It should be a series of full-course meals. It was never designed to be done alone or fast.

Greyhawk is not going to get the FR treatment in this game. It would require a Menace like expansion and that is not going to happen. I suggest people temper expectations and just live with some ToEE being better than none.

The Elemental nodes would be a prime place to introduce random dungeon generator tech. That could make their replayability outside the scope of the ToEE more interesting and introduce technology that could be used elsewhere in the game in the future. At this stage in DDO's development I think this might be a good idea.

Are we getting a Harper tree unlock in U24?

Any other trees to round out classes in the near future?

Are we seeing a new event in U24 or U25?


Thanks for the updates. It is great to see some exciting stuff on the horizon.

[Oxarhamar]

Since forum opinion is really only the minority of players that use the forums frequently and the Player's Council is only a minority of players (even if supposedly a wide range of playstyles etc) would it be possible for the dev's to put a question or poll on log-in, so that maybe once a week or once a month you log-in to the game and answer a player opinion question. At least on log-in would make sure that all players see it, and if they have an opinion about it may be motivated to share that opinion.

For example, on log-in:
Yes or No Would you like to see Anauroch in 2015?

or

How would you prioritize cosmetics, with 1 being most important and 5 being least? *1 *2 *3 *4 *5

or

Which class needs updated next (after barbarian)? *Artificier *Druid *Favored Soul (All 3 chosen for only having two enhancement trees.)

or

Which heroic pack would you like to see Epic-ed next? *Shavarath *Vale *Titan *None prefer ALL new content

yes I guess you missed the 3 or 4 times 'I've mentioned "In game survey" as the ideal solution in this very thread.

That "snip" you quoted was in direct response to an opinionated player who thinks that forum opinions mean nothing. A bit hypocritical considering that opinion is a forum opinion itself.

[EllisDee37]

I agree with this 100 percent. IF you're the type of person that only runs quests two levels over on elite, leveling from 8-->9 and 10 -->11 are where it gets tricky.Level 8 has tons of quests. Getting from 10 to 11 there is almost too much xp. (Any level with a necro pack has tons of xp.)

It's not hard to level by doing all content once and done on elite, but when you do that it becomes clear that the "light" spots (NOT "trouble" spots) are level 6 and 10 quests. Which, to clarify, are run on character levels 8 and 12. 12 less so than 8 if you run the level 10 raids. (Tempest Spine and VON5&6.)

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

But don't you think that we have enough content in that level range? And, that endgame content suits everybody at some point throughout their gaming path?

If you accept these two statements then I don't see why you wouldn't want endgame content.

Cetus you need to come to grips that coins are not single sided. Neither is the demand for end game content. Much of the content we relied on for years is stale. They are right to try and keep early game fresh as well as end game. In games like Neverwinter just about everyone can get to level 60 in 2-3 days. There is zero respect for anything in the game less than 60. Then at 60 you grind until you quit the game. Thats not happening in DDO and most likely never will. Turbine is to credit for that.

In DDO, even though you can race through in similar fashion the great majority does not. Most spend months playing through their toons to max level. They are developing low level and content up to level 30... what more can you ask for??

[fmalfeas]

The Elemental nodes would be a prime place to introduce random dungeon generator tech. That could make their replayability outside the scope of the ToEE more interesting and introduce technology that could be used elsewhere in the game in the future. At this stage in DDO's development I think this might be a good idea.

There's actually a canon random dungeon generator. I'm not being euphemistic about Undermountain's shifting nature either. I'm talking about the Modron Cube Construct.

The modrons of Mechanus got curious about adventurers. Why they do it, how they do it, what exactly they do...so, they went to Limbo to use it's malleable nature, and built the Cube Construct. Then they built devices that teleport you to the construct when used. Once there, the modrons actually tell you exactly what the place is, and have you select a difficulty setting. They pull some levers, flip some switches and turn some knobs, and off you go. None of that is a joke. Once they send you in, the only way out is to 'complete the dungeon'. Inside it are a bunch of various types of specialized 'dungeon enemy constructs' representing types of foes adventurers would encounter (as in melee, arcane spells, that kind of thing, not creature types...the modrons aren't that creative). On the lowest setting, they're pretty much just golems. On the highest settings, you're dealing with things that may as well be high-end Inevitables, powerful and very intelligent. All of them, however, are aware of their purpose. The high end ones tend to think it's ridiculous and mock the entire process as they slaughter the poor chumps who picked those settings. At the end, there is a special 'boss monster' construct, carrying rewarding loot if beaten.

However, having been constructed in Limbo, things sometimes go...wrong. Introducing a thing of perfect order into a place of absolute chaos is naturally not going to work out the way you plan.

*That* would be the perfect testbed for random dungeon technology, and it's canon, and has a built-in excuse to provide access to it. Any bugs can even be treated as canonically justified by the effects of Limbo. Of course, instakillers and assassins wouldn't be very happy in there, unless Slaad got in...and nobody is really happy if that happens.

[Seljuck]

Everything sounds quite good. One thing sounds HORRIBLE

That's the CR 26 bit for all three in the new pack? What more, that turns out to be the paid one too?

Let me remind you that your ostensibly "endgame" pack last time contained quests that were soloed day 1. What do you think your CR26 nonsense will contribute to this game, exactly?

The fact that ToEE is announced and the other quest is CR 30 somewhat excites me.

Cetus, In fact adding CR 30 or even 40 quests won't change anything. Do You think people don't soloed them in 1st or 2nd day? You will be probable the one, who done it 1st.
The only way that prevent this situation is doing quests with mechanics that require 2+ people that CAN'T BE SOLOED... and that's not popular trend this days..

[Full_Bleed]

*That* would be the perfect testbed for random dungeon technology, and it's canon, and has a built-in excuse to provide access to it. Any bugs can even be treated as canonically justified by the effects of Limbo.
Neat concept. But you don't need canon to justify randomly generated content in this game. With the development team being cut like it has been it might relieve some of the content creation pressure to put some more random components in to increase replayability.

The ToEE is on the schedule now. Developing random gen tech for the elemental nodes could be a good testing ground. Something that could then surely be used to create stuff like the concept you've mentioned.

[Eth]

Update 24 will be previewed on Lamannia starting this weekend, so now seems like a good time to unveil its dungeons. Get ready for some surprises!

First up in Update 24 is a new content pack, Heart of Madness. The plane of Xoriat is encroaching on Eberron once again and the result is three dungeons full of Xorian insanity. Both the Lord of Eyes and the Lord of Stone are back, as well as some other fan favorite characters. (Hint – one of the dungeons is named “Fashion Madness.”) The centerpiece of the pack is “Terminal Delirium,” the follow-up to two of our most popular dungeons. Once again you’ll be returning to the Sleeping Spell Inn, and once again you’ll be seeing—and be turned into—some very unusual things. Heart of Madness is CR 18 Heroic/26 Epic, and is a paid pack (450 Turbine Points; free to VIPs of course.)

Also coming in Update 24 is a Forgotten Realms dungeon themed to tie in with Wizards of the Coast’s Tyranny of Dragons (https://dnd.wizards.com/dungeons-and-dragons/story) storyline. You’ll infiltrate a Cult of the Dragon base while on the trail of the fabled White Dragon mask. “The Mask of Deception” is CR 16 Heroic/30 Epic, and is free to everyone.



Update 24 will round out the year with new quests, new Festivult cookies, and a new event that centers on something we can all agree on: looting chests!

What's with the event - whatever it is - that was announced. Will we see that in U24 or not?

[nolifer1]

haunted halls was awsome, looking forvard to temple of evil

[Uska]

Lol - D&D never had Min Level requirements for ANY named Loot!

That is an MMO thing!

I was actually pleased that the Devs were putting at least a little bit of D&D back into DDO!

No but any gm that let low level players access to that kind of stuff was Monty Haul, you don't have a gm here preventing players from passing Monty Haul loot to others or selling it to them. Level limits are like a non-Monty Haul gm

[Uska]

Fixed yes but not to the point of them being worse then rings you can loot from chests, so for me they still need to fix them.

Yeah that's the problem here sometimes they go to far in both directions, they make something to good then they go to far when they try to nerf it to a proper level

[Uska]

End Game stuff is not only what is lacking in the game right now (I.E. we don't need new lowbie quests, there is enough xp to once and done and skip some on the way, this is not true of Epic) but is also what the Devs have said the focus is going to be to work on building an endgame. Cetus has a valid reason for his question.

Wrong we always need new quests of all levels and it doesn't mean Cetus is right because that's what he thinks that's just what he wants. I don't care if there is enough xp at low level that is the level I like playing and like to see new stuff so I can play fresh stuff with friends and new players alike

[Uska]

But don't you think that we have enough content in that level range? And, that endgame content suits everybody at some point throughout their gaming path?

If you accept these two statements then I don't see why you wouldn't want endgame content.

I don't think we will ever have enough stuff at any level range and I don't play end game stuff so its not my desire to see it but I also understand some want that. I don't wan them to exclusively concentrate on any range. I do grudgingly admit they need to work on the end game more say 75-80% and the other stuff at 20-25%

[Hendrik]

Upcoming dungeons in Update 24



So what kind of cool things led to the detour away from Anauroch? One of them will be coming in Update 25. Since The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar was received so well, we’ve decided to adapt another classic pen-and-paper module to DDO. Rather than blabbing on, I’ll skip right to the awesome part and give you five simple words:

The Temple of Elemental Evil.

Yep, we will be creating our own version of the original, classic Temple inside DDO. We’re very excited about adapting one of the most famous modules in Dungeons and Dragons history, and we hope you are too.



ToEE!?!?!

I hope you all can do it as much justice as you did with Haunted Halls.

Right now playing this with a tabletop group on Roll20 (http://roll20.net/) and loving it once again. Looking forward to playing it in DDO.

Take your time with ToEE and do it right.

ToEE, I am so very happy you listened and are going to deliver another classic module.

Thank you.

[Wizza]

I thought you guys said: "We will concentrate on creating more end-game so players will have enough content to play with when the cap will be raised to 30". I see you say one thing and then make another. Wasn't expecting any better honestly.

Still would like to see an answer whether ToEE will be the only quest coming for Update 25 or not.

[Uska]

I thought you guys said: "We will concentrate on creating more end-game so players will have enough content to play with when the cap will be raised to 30". I see you say one thing and then make another. Wasn't expecting any better honestly.

Still would like to see an answer whether ToEE will be the only quest coming for Update 25 or not.

Show me where they said that

[Hendrik]

Yes we know your siggy also very nicely sums up how you feel about FR, that's okay to each their own. Consider though many of us like FR and other "realms" and WOULD PAY and PLAY it!

Try not to let your minority complaint/hatred of FR lead you into believing you speak for the majority.



Indeed, I wonder if this is based off the players or the "council" which doesn't necessarily reflect what players want.

Everyone seems to have forgotten the DEVs asking us what our favorite modules were....

Asking us here, on the forums.

The DEVs asked, players replied and now we get to play ToEE.

[Aelonwy]

yes I guess you missed the 3 or 4 times 'I've mentioned "In game survey" as the ideal solution in this very thread.

That "snip" you quoted was in direct response to an opinionated player who thinks that forum opinions mean nothing. A bit hypocritical considering that opinion is a forum opinion itself.

Yeah sorry about that, i read the first page, and then because so much had gone on and I had limited time I skipped to the second dev comment and skimmed from there.

[Wizza]

Show me where they said that

It wasn't meant for you but the Developers, I'm pretty sure they know what they said and when. Do a little research, I can't be bothered to find the quote among 20 livestreams and the dozens of Developers posts just for you.

[nibel]

We've banished a named succubus back to Shavarath after destroying all her works. That's an enemy primed.
We've banished the Demon Queen, banishing the named marilith back to Shavarath. Another, more powerful enemy primed, and they could readily work together to seek vengeance in a later chain.

Two quick corrections: While we did defeat Malicia in Big Top, we fight her again in Wrath of the Flame and destroy her for good (since it is on her native plane). She can't go back for vengeance because outsiders can't be raised from the dead.

Also, Queen Lailat is dead. The whole reason why we had to collect the Sands flagging items is so that Zawabi can reverse her sealed haven and prevent her soul from escaping to Shavarath. Then we invade and kill her for good, since Zawabi prevented her from being "banished back to Shavarath" upon defeat. She also can't come back for revenge.

[Loromir]

Replies in Blue



Well these are amongst my favourites after 4 years playing this game - The quests I'll happily run again and again and again:

Prove Your Worth {Heroic}
The Legend of Two Toed Tobias {Heroic}
Gwylan's Stand
Tomb of the Shadow Guard
Tomb of the Shadow Knight
The Xorian Cypher
Tomb of the Tormented
Tempest Spine
Relic of a Sovereign Past
Purge the Fallen Shrine
Chains of Flame
PoP


I pretty much agree with this list with one big exception....Tomb of the Tormented. Standing around watching one person attempt to herd a rat through a maze is boring. I would say, it's even boring for the puzzler.



I would add to this list: Tear of Dhakaan. You need a specific party make up if you want to do all the optionals. I run this quest about 3 or 4 time each life.

[Loromir]

Sev, I am very surprised at the decision to launch more low level (CR26) content. I could have sworn that you guys were done with that phase, and would from now on churn out endgame stuff.

What happened? This is going backwards.


Although I agree with you about the need for more CR30+ content...I'm not sure Xoriat is worthy of being called "End Game" content. I do believe that these Xoriat quests were probably a way to roll out new content with a relatively low development cost. I imagine they are reusing and repackaging lot of old assets to deliver "New" Xoriat content. Lets face it, the DDO staff has been thinned down to not much more than a Skeleton crew. I think they are doing all they can to try to give us as much content as they can deliver with the limited resources they have available.

I'm not sure we're going to see a ton of CR 30 stuff to be honest. I'm skeptical if we will even see the level cap raised to 30 as they previously stated. There just isn't enough content to support that. I hope I'm wrong.

[General_Gronker]

but the truth is we’ve been listening to what excites you guys when it comes to D&D settings. Clearly, you have not been listening.


Yep, we will be creating our own version of the original, classic Temple inside DDO. I wish I could get excited about this, but considering the content you've put out over the last two years, I just don't trust you to do it right. I think what we'll probably get is, at best, a homage to ToEE. Especially since you said it right there:

our own version
I don't want your version, I want the module's version. Or at least as found in the stand alone video game (without the bugs). And that's not going to happen unless you all take a long, hard look at how you design your modules and critters.

[General_Gronker]

I'd like to see each level of ToEE, or at least group of related levels, be it's own dungeon as apposed to one massive dungeon.
That's not really The Temple of Elemental Evil then, now is it? So, no, your idea is bad.

[jozzcooper3]

Ohhhh he just said Temple of Elemental Evil. 'Scuse me while I change my pants.

[Loromir]

I think bringing ToEE in at lvl 7 for Heroic is actually a great marketing move (If they make an effort to advertise it). Over the past 2 years all of the new content has been focused to appease the veteran crowd. The average new player coming would not expect to have an opportunity to play the new high level stuff. How many time do we start up a new MMO only to play the first few levels and then quit (Never getting to the really great higher level content).

Now ToEE might appeal to the old time PNP'ers and possibly draw them into the game. And the fact that it will be playable at the lvl 7 range puts it within reach of even the casual gamers who never expect to reach the higher levels. And Maybe, by the time these casual gamers spend enough time to get to lvl 7 and ToEE....might be just enough time to get them hooked.

I think this might be a good marketing opportunity Turbine. A way to breath some new life and new revenue into the game. Don't drop the ball on this one. The D&D world needs to know that you are rolling this out.

[Uska]

That's not really The Temple of Elemental Evil then, now is it? So, no, your idea is bad.

To you but not to everyone

[legendkilleroll]

I thought you guys said: "We will concentrate on creating more end-game so players will have enough content to play with when the cap will be raised to 30". I see you say one thing and then make another. Wasn't expecting any better honestly.

Does it matter what level it is really? If its atleast challenging and has some longevity to it should be the question and doesn't have loot farmed in a week

[Uska]

It wasn't meant for you but the Developers, I'm pretty sure they know what they said and when. Do a little research, I can't be bothered to find the quote among 20 livestreams and the dozens of Developers posts just for you.

PROVE they said it I read the forums every day and don't recall that statement. I don't think it was ever said

[Seljuck]

If You Devs have enough development time and resources for UP25 and ToEE, You could also revitalize Restless Isles with Titan Raid! :)
This raid is so different from what we have now. It's a shame that this great piece of code is underestimated. Please consider adding epic levels to it.
That would be great addition to our epic Raiding.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I'm not sure we're going to see a ton of CR 30 stuff to be honest. I'm skeptical if we will even see the level cap raised to 30 as they previously stated. There just isn't enough content to support that. I hope I'm wrong.

A ton, maybe not. But I bet they can churn out Update 25 quality at least once a year with current crew in addition to smaller updates throughout the year without missing a beat pretty much indefinitely. I wouldn't bet against Turbine. I say we see new content for the next three years at least... Im also betting on level 30.

Now as far as will there be enough Level 30 content that will be the challenge. Personally, I would put a new notch on the dial and turn many quests up to "Supreme 30" difficulty setting. Basically adding a new level of difficulty across the board gamewide -- for the most part killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

[The_Human_Cypher]

For those of you who are curious about what the original 'Temple of Elemental Evil' video game from 2003 looks like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkBJWibmmsE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh8HNcLHokU

[Eth]

PROVE they said it I read the forums every day and don't recall that statement. I don't think it was ever said


We’re pushing out the level cap for now to make sure we have plenty of questing to support your journey through the highest levels of DDO. Hitting level 30 will be a big milestone for DDO, and we want to put it out when the timing is right, and make sure its design keeps up with the way you, the players want to play DDO.


Best I could think of.

[brian14]

Hey, what happened to Anauroch?

Earlier we had mentioned Anauroch as one of the places we wanted to go in 2014. Obviously that’s not happening.

Why the change? It’s tempting to blame it all on Xorian madness, but the truth is we’ve been listening to what excites you guys when it comes to D&D settings. We may still make it to Anauroch eventually, but don’t expect it any time soon. It’s a long, long walk from Cormyr. Instead of the blazing hot desert, we’re going someplace cooler instead.

I was never particularly excited about deserts, so I have no problem with Anauroch being put on hold. But speaking of some places cooler and shadier, how about Araumycos (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Araumycos)? I would love to see it as an explorer area connected to Underdark!

[Wizza]

Does it matter what level it is really? If its atleast challenging and has some longevity to it should be the question and doesn't have loot farmed in a week

Well, it does. Not being level capped will mean that it will not be challenging, loot will NOT be worthwile to people playing endgame and we won't even be able to farm it to sell it because it will be BtAoA. So yeah, not being at cap makes a huge difference.


PROVE they said it I read the forums every day and don't recall that statement. I don't think it was ever said

Good think I don't really care if you believe me or not. Also see Eth's reply.


Best I could think of.

This is one, there was another statement, maybe in one of the Livestreams. Either way, that one is enough, so there you go Uska. Good thing you read the forums every day.

[catouse9]

They aren't robots and they retrofitted the forged into the better they were nuked and forgotten realms

I don't understand what you mean by this sentence.
they look like robots... they are not golems.

[patang01]

Although I agree with you about the need for more CR30+ content...I'm not sure Xoriat is worthy of being called "End Game" content. I do believe that these Xoriat quests were probably a way to roll out new content with a relatively low development cost. I imagine they are reusing and repackaging lot of old assets to deliver "New" Xoriat content. Lets face it, the DDO staff has been thinned down to not much more than a Skeleton crew. I think they are doing all they can to try to give us as much content as they can deliver with the limited resources they have available.

I'm not sure we're going to see a ton of CR 30 stuff to be honest. I'm skeptical if we will even see the level cap raised to 30 as they previously stated. There just isn't enough content to support that. I hope I'm wrong.

This - adding an entirely new setting like Aunurach would probably take a long time with a high cost of development. Reusing the same settings but adding a fresh quest is probably easier and quicker. And not complaining tho. Most of the Xoriat ones are fun, but it's really a love or hate type of deal. Personally I'm glad that they're saving their resources for things like ToEE and tying up some story arcs instead of opening up new ones.

[Uska]

Best I could think of.

Doesn't even say they are concentrating on it but I guess people will read,into,things,what they want to see

[Uska]

Well, it does. Not being level capped will mean that it will not be challenging, loot will NOT be worthwile to people playing endgame and we won't even be able to farm it to sell it because it will be BtAoA. So yeah, not being at cap makes a huge difference.



Good think I don't really care if you believe me or not. Also see Eth's reply.



This is one, there was another statement, maybe in one of the Livestreams. Either way, that one is enough, so there you go Uska. Good thing you read the forums every day.

It doesn't say what you said they said now does it it says pushing out not concentrating on or working exclusively on and the other mythical post doesn't either

[Uska]

I don't understand what you mean by this sentence.
they look like robots... they are not golems.

Yes they are a type of golem they certainly aren't robots

[catouse9]

I'm still new enough to go on quests for the sake of the storyline.

ditto this!

[Uska]

ditto this!

That is,why I want new low and level quests

[jalont]

Well, it does. Not being level capped will mean that it will not be challenging, loot will NOT be worthwile to people playing endgame and we won't even be able to farm it to sell it because it will be BtAoA. So yeah, not being at cap makes a huge difference.



Good think I don't really care if you believe me or not. Also see Eth's reply.



This is one, there was another statement, maybe in one of the Livestreams. Either way, that one is enough, so there you go Uska. Good thing you read the forums every day.

I'm not sure how anyone can think we're ready to start entering endgame territory. The last few updates have given out massive buffs to certain classes, creating huge imbalance. Creating an endgame now would be a hot mess. There either needs to be a few massive rounds of buffs or nerfs first, so that the endgame can at least be balanced.

[nikos1313]

We want to find a fun system to reward exploring the temple rather than just running the most efficient path to finish the quests, and plan on having some rewarding optional objectives that randomly spawn and give out good XP and treasure.

Sev~

if u manage to make this happen for every/most quests, DDO will be a total different game, and i really hope u can do it eventually.
looking forward to the new stuff!

[Monkey-Boy]

if u manage to make this happen for every/most quests, DDO will be a total different game, and i really hope u can do it eventually.
looking forward to the new stuff!

/Signed.

[Uska]

if u manage to make this happen for every/most quests, DDO will be a total different game, and i really hope u can do it eventually.
looking forward to the new stuff!

That would be cool wouldn't it might get people back to making parties and not zerging everything

[jalont]

That would be cool wouldn't it might get people back to making parties and not zerging everything

LOL, or no one will run them at all. Quite a bit of people don't actually enjoy running content, it's just the thing they have to do to get the exhilaration they feel from winning the prize, whatever that prize may be.

[HurtyouBad]

been back a few days from Vacation and looking on Forums for 1st time and I see this POST......wow , 3 cheers and my excitement for ToEE...I will also say and agree with my fellow Brothers & Sisters who have posted before me PLEASE do it well and with justice , sorry PRETTY PLEASE :).....as for more Madness , cool and looking forward to it...as for the OP saying a comment about the FASHION part please include something because I for one crack-up when entering & doing that part of Quest , hilarious and great idea to pull you from the normal scenes throughout Game , might I make a suggestion if you are adding some sort of Fashion part into NEW Madness , name the monsters in that part only after some famous fashion designers from throughout the world either by 1st name or last name or both names but with D&D style :)....as for Anauroch its not striking a bell with me , but does make me think by the name only does he have a brother named Inurroch which come from a great console Games - CoN {Champions of Norrath} & CoN-RtA {Champions of Norrath-Return to Arms}.....ty also for very TINY U25 comment and btw , ahy sorta comment on Cannith Crafting revamp/upgrade however you wanna call it , like from what was said by "new" D.D.O. Ldr from his post earlier this Year???

[legendkilleroll]

Well, it does. Not being level capped will mean that it will not be challenging, loot will NOT be worthwile to people playing endgame and we won't even be able to farm it to sell it because it will be BtAoA. So yeah, not being at cap makes a huge difference

Its not like its low 20s, its 26. Not sure how because its not 28 it cant be made challenging, same with the loot, if some nice effects are on them they can still be useful

[Cordovan]

What's with the event - whatever it is - that was announced. Will we see that in U24 or not?

The new event will make its live server debut in 2015, although the plan is to give it a preview on Lamannia during the U24 preview cycle.

[Wizza]

I'm not sure how anyone can think we're ready to start entering endgame territory. The last few updates have given out massive buffs to certain classes, creating huge imbalance. Creating an endgame now would be a hot mess. There either needs to be a few massive rounds of buffs or nerfs first, so that the endgame can at least be balanced.

Alright, let's wait Update 26 to fix Paladins, Update 27 to fix PRR/MRR, Update 28 to buff Rogues, Update 29 to buff Epic Destinies, Update 30 to fix Artificers and then we can have endgame!

Hey look horray, we have a plan!


Its not like its low 20s, its 26. Not sure how because its not 28 it cant be made challenging, same with the loot, if some nice effects are on them they can still be useful

Well that's easy. Wheloon is 26 and was not challenging one bit when it came out. And we didn't even the god mode that we have now. And the paladins. So yeah, I'm pretty sure level 26 can't be challenging to us at the moment.

[Braegan]

That is,why I want new low and level quests

Currently there is enough heroic xp to once and done your way 1-20.
Currently there is not enough epic xp to once and done your way through 20-28.

That is why the focus is and currently should be on epic level quests.

[FranOhmsford]

No but any gm that let low level players access to that kind of stuff was Monty Haul, you don't have a gm here preventing players from passing Monty Haul loot to others or selling it to them. Level limits are like a non-Monty Haul gm

Wow - Just no!

Level limits on named loot in DDO are way beyond simply not being Monty Haul - They're the complete opposite of what a Monty Haul GM would do!
It's not as simple as Monty Haul vs Non Monty Haul {What one person considers Monty Haul could easily be considered standard by others - Heck I've learned that from these very forums with people stating that Gauntlets of Ogre Power are standard fare for Lvl 7/8 Characters and should be available in the local Corner Shop to buy!}.

And Frankly DDO is beyond Monty Haul anyway - 90% of the magical items in DDO would not be available to ANYONE in a PnP Game!

So - You have to judge DDO by DDO's standards AND it was nice to finally have some specialized "Twink" items to earn for later lives {I personally only ever had one such ring so no I wasn't constantly farming that chain like some people!}.

Now - Did Turbine maybe go to far with the original items? Probably.
Did Turbine go way too far with the eventual Nerf? Hell Yes!
Were these items WAI when they came out? YES! This was stated on Multiple Occasions!

[EllisDee37]

Currently there is enough heroic xp to once and done your way 1-20.
Currently there is not enough epic xp to once and done your way through 20-28.

That is why the focus is and currently should be on epic level quests.It will be both.

But that's the first argument I've seen for not making it endgame.

[FranOhmsford]

I pretty much agree with this list with one big exception....Tomb of the Tormented. Standing around watching one person attempt to herd a rat through a maze is boring. I would say, it's even boring for the puzzler.



I would add to this list: Tear of Dhakaan. You need a specific party make up if you want to do all the optionals. I run this quest about 3 or 4 time each life.

I'm one of the very few people who doesn't absolutely adore Tear!

Don't get me wrong - I like Tear - I just don't think it's in the top tier of quests in DDO.

However: I've never met a Newbie {other than myself} who didn't love Tear the first time they ran it!


As for Tormented - I am quite happy for 5 people to sit around piking {once they've cleared the mobs in each room that is!} while I do the Puzzle!
It's the other 3 quests in that chain that I really Loathe!

[Braegan]

It will be both.

But that's the first argument I've seen for not making it endgame.

Yes, we are getting there.

And don't get me wrong, I don't think we need another under level 26 quest right now. We could use a couple more 26-28, and then the focus should be on the 28-30 range for when the cap goes up.

[legendkilleroll]

Well that's easy. Wheloon is 26 and was not challenging one bit when it came out. And we didn't even the god mode that we have now. And the paladins. So yeah, I'm pretty sure level 26 can't be challenging to us at the moment.

Nothing is challenging to you and your Uber friends though, Im pretty sure when wheloon first came out there was quite a few people who had troubles on EE

[FranOhmsford]

Well that's easy. Wheloon is 26 and was not challenging one bit when it came out. And we didn't even the god mode that we have now. And the paladins. So yeah, I'm pretty sure level 26 can't be challenging to us at the moment.

When Wheloon came out there was wailing and gnashing of teeth from the Player Base {incl. Known Power Gamers!} over the INSANE Red Alert Scaling, the Chains, the DoTs etc. etc.
AND THAT WAS JUST ON HEROIC!!!

Calling Wheloon not challenging just shows how out of touch you are with the majority of the Player Base!

[LordKalkin]

I thought you guys said: "We will concentrate on creating more end-game so players will have enough content to play with when the cap will be raised to 30". I see you say one thing and then make another. Wasn't expecting any better honestly.

Still would like to see an answer whether ToEE will be the only quest coming for Update 25 or not.

Or not.

What you and Cetus and others with blinders on seem to believe is that they will exclusively concentrate on end game content. Nowhere was that said or implied.

[Hendrik]

Excited to see some concept art and/or screenshots of Zuggtmoy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuggtmoy) and/or Iuz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iuz).

Just hope the DEVs can do ToEE justice. They did for Haunted Halls and have faith they can and will for ToEE.

Have very high expectations after HH not to mention ToEE one of THE best modules ever created.

Do it right and do it big!

[FranOhmsford]

Currently there is enough heroic xp to once and done your way 1-20.
Currently there is not enough epic xp to once and done your way through 20-28.

That is why the focus is and currently should be on epic level quests.

There's plenty of Epic XP available in DDO - But most Epic quests simply don't get run!

Then there's the fact that people completely ignore Lvl 17-19 Content the moment they hit 20!

That's 3 whole levels worth of XP {Yes not good xp} that people don't take advantage of!

Then there's the Multiple Epic Slayer Zones {and the Cannith Raid instances!} with their 100,000 plus XP just for a first clearance!



Now - I'm not now and haven't yet stated that we don't need more Epic Quests - Lvl 26+ is pretty sparse currently.
BUT That's being looked at by the Devs!

What I'm saying is that completely ignoring Pre-Lvl 16 is not a good idea because it cuts down on the chances of Newbies sticking around long enough to even get into Epics!


This Update 25 according to the OP is going to give up multiple Lvl 26 Quests and what looks like 2 Lvl 30 Quests!
What I'm concerned with is the plainly stupid decision to make the Heroic Versions Lvl 18!

Unfortunately the Devs don't have much choice with the Xoriat quests as they've decided to "finish" that Arc and Reign of Madness is Lvl 17 anyway.
BUT
I'd much prefer they simply don't bother making Heroic versions of these quests {despite what that does to my chances of hitting 5k Favour on Lieuk!} so as to make the Epic Versions actually mean something!

We don't need new Lvl 18 Quests that won't get run for anything other than Favour!
We need new Lvl 10-15 Quests {not incl. Lvl 11!} IN the Realms!

Actually - Heroic Lvl 10 Versions of the King's Forest Quests would be a good place to start!

[Loromir]

Well that's easy. Wheloon is 26 and was not challenging one bit when it came out. And we didn't even the god mode that we have now.


I call Shenanigans!!!!

[Seikojin]

Content designer Knockback here. I’ve worked on dungeons such as “Eyes of Stone,” “The Snitch,” “A Study In Sable” and the Thunderholme adventure area, and I’m here to update you folks on some of the things we’re currently building for DDO.

Upcoming dungeons in Update 24

Update 24 will be previewed on Lamannia starting this weekend, so now seems like a good time to unveil its dungeons. Get ready for some surprises!

First up in Update 24 is a new content pack, Heart of Madness. The plane of Xoriat is encroaching on Eberron once again and the result is three dungeons full of Xorian insanity. Both the Lord of Eyes and the Lord of Stone are back, as well as some other fan favorite characters. (Hint – one of the dungeons is named “Fashion Madness.”) The centerpiece of the pack is “Terminal Delirium,” the follow-up to two of our most popular dungeons. Once again you’ll be returning to the Sleeping Spell Inn, and once again you’ll be seeing—and be turned into—some very unusual things. Heart of Madness is CR 18 Heroic/26 Epic, and is a paid pack (450 Turbine Points; free to VIPs of course.)

Also coming in Update 24 is a Forgotten Realms dungeon themed to tie in with Wizards of the Coast’s Tyranny of Dragons (https://dnd.wizards.com/dungeons-and-dragons/story) storyline. You’ll infiltrate a Cult of the Dragon base while on the trail of the fabled White Dragon mask. “The Mask of Deception” is CR 16 Heroic/30 Epic, and is free to everyone.

Hey, what happened to Anauroch?

Earlier we had mentioned Anauroch as one of the places we wanted to go in 2014. Obviously that’s not happening.

Why the change? It’s tempting to blame it all on Xorian madness, but the truth is we’ve been listening to what excites you guys when it comes to D&D settings. We may still make it to Anauroch eventually, but don’t expect it any time soon. It’s a long, long walk from Cormyr. Instead of the blazing hot desert, we’re going someplace cooler instead.

Future plans and Update 25

So what kind of cool things led to the detour away from Anauroch? One of them will be coming in Update 25. Since The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar was received so well, we’ve decided to adapt another classic pen-and-paper module to DDO. Rather than blabbing on, I’ll skip right to the awesome part and give you five simple words:

The Temple of Elemental Evil.

Yep, we will be creating our own version of the original, classic Temple inside DDO. We’re very excited about adapting one of the most famous modules in Dungeons and Dragons history, and we hope you are too.

In the meantime, though, we have a date with insanity. Hope to see everyone this weekend on Lamannia for a preview of Update 24!


YES! I am totally excited for these quests! I love the randomness of the Xoriat themed quests and I love classic modules! I love all the new content, however I definitely love ToEE. I played the remake, so never dealt with the classic graphics. And I really hope the ddo version has some awesome mechanics and events similar to the PC versions.

On the item side, I hope it has a lot of good stuff to offer. One of the gems of ToEE was the delving for gear.

[jalont]

Alright, let's wait Update 26 to fix Paladins, Update 27 to fix PRR/MRR, Update 28 to buff Rogues, Update 29 to buff Epic Destinies, Update 30 to fix Artificers and then we can have endgame!

Hey look horray, we have a plan!



Well that's easy. Wheloon is 26 and was not challenging one bit when it came out. And we didn't even the god mode that we have now. And the paladins. So yeah, I'm pretty sure level 26 can't be challenging to us at the moment.

So if we do endgame now, who do we balance it around? The OP classes or the not OP classes. Either choice is going to make a huge mess.

[Braegan]

There's plenty of Epic XP available in DDO - But most Epic quests simply don't get run!

Then there's the fact that people completely ignore Lvl 17-19 Content the moment they hit 20!

That's 3 whole levels worth of XP {Yes not good xp} that people don't take advantage of!

Then there's the Multiple Epic Slayer Zones {and the Cannith Raid instances!} with their 100,000 plus XP just for a first clearance!



Now - I'm not now and haven't yet stated that we don't need more Epic Quests - Lvl 26+ is pretty sparse currently.
BUT That's being looked at by the Devs!

What I'm saying is that completely ignoring Pre-Lvl 16 is not a good idea because it cuts down on the chances of Newbies sticking around long enough to even get into Epics!


This Update 25 according to the OP is going to give up multiple Lvl 26 Quests and what looks like 2 Lvl 30 Quests!
What I'm concerned with is the plainly stupid decision to make the Heroic Versions Lvl 18!

Unfortunately the Devs don't have much choice with the Xoriat quests as they've decided to "finish" that Arc and Reign of Madness is Lvl 17 anyway.
BUT
I'd much prefer they simply don't bother making Heroic versions of these quests {despite what that does to my chances of hitting 5k Favour on Lieuk!} so as to make the Epic Versions actually mean something!

We don't need new Lvl 18 Quests that won't get run for anything other than Favour!
We need new Lvl 10-15 Quests {not incl. Lvl 11!} IN the Realms!

Actually - Heroic Lvl 10 Versions of the King's Forest Quests would be a good place to start!

There is a lot of epic xp, but not quite enough to completely avoid repeats. That problem is only going to get bigger when the cap gets raised to 30 and the xp needed to cap will be much larger.

Shown in the link is what a once and done run can get you. Yes there are variables, but that is a pretty good representation. Doing nearly everything got me just under 2 million xp from cap. So I am glad some focus is being given to that 26+ range. When the cap goes up and we need another almost 4 million more to cap, we will need a bunch more content unless we want to run Spies/Wiz/Von3 x2 EN forever, lol.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/431810-ATTN-Devs-Compiled-Data-Epic-XP-CoV

Perhaps I am a bit out of touch, but I don't see pre level 16 needing as much help. Certainly not what 26+ does. A newbie (assuming 1st lifer) is going to cap before they even get to run all the content we currently have.

While it's nice to have variety for low and mid levels, it really isn't hurting anywhere like 26+ is. Once Epic xp is balanced out and there is more content to avoid repeats and support a etr through 20-30 then we can go back and throw quests at all levels for fun, variety, etc.

[Wizza]

Nothing is challenging to you and your Uber friends though, Im pretty sure when wheloon first came out there was quite a few people who had troubles on EE

Never said it so I'll just ignore your reply.


When Wheloon came out there was wailing and gnashing of teeth from the Player Base {incl. Known Power Gamers!} over the INSANE Red Alert Scaling, the Chains, the DoTs etc. etc.
AND THAT WAS JUST ON HEROIC!!!

Calling Wheloon not challenging just shows how out of touch you are with the majority of the Player Base!

Red Alert = Challenging content. Okay, you have a weird definition of challenge.

FYI I was one of those who said that Red Alert was a nightmare in those quests not because it made quests challenging but because it was instant and you could do nothing about that, you walked into a room and BOOM, Red Alert.. But I never said that content was challenging. Red alert =\= challenge. Sorry.


Or not.

What you and Cetus and others with blinders on seem to believe is that they will exclusively concentrate on end game content. Nowhere was that said or implied.

Not sure why you even say the name of Cetus, we are two different persons. I'm pretty sure that we both agree that they should make BOTH (keyword) endgame AND lower level stuff AT THE SAME TIME.

I think we both agreed that a system like: Level 26 on Epic Normal, Level 28 on Epic Hard and Level 30 on Epic Elite would make everyone happy. Of course adjusting the loot accordingly, but everyone of you thinks that all I (keyword, I'm Wizza, Cetus is Cetus) want is just endgame content and nothing else. And you can keep that thought to yourself if you really believe it, I don't care, just don't put words into my mouth that I never said.


So if we do endgame now, who do we balance it around? The OP classes or the not OP classes. Either choice is going to make a huge mess.

Content can be challenging to both. See the previous EE Thunder Peak and EE Deathwyrm.

[EllisDee37]

Perhaps I am a bit out of touch, but I don't see pre level 16 needing as much help. Certainly not what 26+ does. A newbie (assuming 1st lifer) is going to cap before they even get to run all the content we currently have.

While it's nice to have variety for low and mid levels, it really isn't hurting anywhere like 26+ is. Once Epic xp is balanced out and there is more content to avoid repeats and support a etr through 20-30 then we can go back and throw quests at all levels for fun, variety, etc.Again, it's not a question of either/or. The content will be both epic and heroic.

[FranOhmsford]

There is a lot of epic xp, but not quite enough to completely avoid repeats. That problem is only going to get bigger when the cap gets raised to 30 and the xp needed to cap will be much larger.

Shown in the link is what a once and done run can get you. Yes there are variables, but that is a pretty good representation. Doing nearly everything got me just under 2 million xp from cap. So I am glad some focus is being given to that 26+ range. When the cap goes up and we need another almost 4 million more to cap, we will need a bunch more content unless we want to run Spies/Wiz/Von3 x2 EN forever, lol.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/431810-ATTN-Devs-Compiled-Data-Epic-XP-CoV

Perhaps I am a bit out of touch, but I don't see pre level 16 needing as much help. Certainly not what 26+ does. A newbie (assuming 1st lifer) is going to cap before they even get to run all the content we currently have.

While it's nice to have variety for low and mid levels, it really isn't hurting anywhere like 26+ is. Once Epic xp is balanced out and there is more content to avoid repeats and support a etr through 20-30 then we can go back and throw quests at all levels for fun, variety, etc.

OK:

1) You've run the majority on E-Hard {Frankly I'm with you here that EE shouldn't be required BUT the XP WOULD be higher!}.

2) 3 x Spies, 3 x Wiz King and 3 x VoN 3 WILL get you over 600k XP! {On Normal and without 1st time bonuses!}

3) You've ignored the Lvl 17-19 quests!

3 is my real issue - The Devs are creating yet more Lvl 18 Quests that simply won't get run!
You've stated yourself that a 1st lifer can cap from Lvl 16s {Heck I know for a fact that so can a 3rd Lifer!}.

How much XP are you missing by going straight to Phiarlan Carnival at Lvl 20 rather than first running Shavarath, IQ1+2 and Reaver's Refuge?
Never mind that there's also The Manufactory, The High Road, Stormhorns and Murder By Night/The Riddle at those levels + Druid's Deep if you're a masochist!
Never mind the 30-40k XP from just one Clearance of the Battleground OR the extra XP from a couple of quick clearances of the Manufactory OR from High Road/Stormhorns Slayers!

[Braegan]

Again, it's not a question of either/or. The content will be both epic and heroic.

I know.
And that's probably the best way to handle it.
My posts you quoted started with me quoting someone that was advocating new low level content.
Hence why I said, if any area needs focus it's not heroics compared to epics.

[FranOhmsford]

Red Alert = Challenging content. Okay, you have a weird definition of challenge.

FYI I was one of those who said that Red Alert was a nightmare in those quests not because it made quests challenging but because it was instant and you could do nothing about that, you walked into a room and BOOM, Red Alert.. But I never said that content was challenging. Red alert =\= challenge. Sorry.


Sorry but you don't get to have it both ways!

We all know that Red Alert is a broken mechanic that the Devs have used on multiple occasions to arbitrarily raise the Challenge Level of content!

IF you personally don't consider Red Alert to be challenging then it must be great to be you BUT then you say that you were actually one of those that complained about Red Alert?
If it's not challenging then WHY did you complain about it?

[Uska]

Never said it so I'll just ignore your reply.



Red Alert = Challenging content. Okay, you have a weird definition of challenge.

FYI I was one of those who said that Red Alert was a nightmare in those quests not because it made quests challenging but because it was instant and you could do nothing about that, you walked into a room and BOOM, Red Alert.. But I never said that content was challenging. Red alert =\= challenge. Sorry.



Not sure why you even say the name of Cetus, we are two different persons. I'm pretty sure that we both agree that they should make BOTH (keyword) endgame AND lower level stuff AT THE SAME TIME.

I think we both agreed that a system like: Level 26 on Epic Normal, Level 28 on Epic Hard and Level 30 on Epic Elite would make everyone happy. Of course adjusting the loot accordingly, but everyone of you thinks that all I (keyword, I'm Wizza, Cetus is Cetus) want is just endgame content and nothing else. And you can keep that thought to yourself if you really believe it, I don't care, just don't put words into my mouth that I never said.



Content can be challenging to both. See the previous EE Thunder Peak and EE Deathwyrm.


No what he/she is saying is the two of you (that's why they mentioned both names) claimed there was supposed to be a concentration when it has never been said or implied.

[Braegan]

OK:

1) You've run the majority on E-Hard {Frankly I'm with you here that EE shouldn't be required BUT the XP WOULD be higher!}.

2) 3 x Spies, 3 x Wiz King and 3 x VoN 3 WILL get you over 600k XP! {On Normal and without 1st time bonuses!}

3) You've ignored the Lvl 17-19 quests!

3 is my real issue - The Devs are creating yet more Lvl 18 Quests that simply won't get run!
You've stated yourself that a 1st lifer can cap from Lvl 16s {Heck I know for a fact that so can a 3rd Lifer!}.

How much XP are you missing by going straight to Phiarlan Carnival at Lvl 20 rather than first running Shavarath, IQ1+2 and Reaver's Refuge?
Never mind that there's also The Manufactory, The High Road, Stormhorns and Murder By Night/The Riddle at those levels + Druid's Deep if you're a masochist!
Never mind the 30-40k XP from just one Clearance of the Battleground OR the extra XP from a couple of quick clearances of the Manufactory OR from High Road/Stormhorns Slayers!

1) Well that thread was in the response of the claim that you can run EH once and done and have enough CoV to ETR. I wasn't the only one at that time that made similar recordings to find that information untrue. There was some EE in the mix, but I choose to run EH to prove that point.

2) Yes those are the daily big xp runs, but variety is nice too.

3) I didn't. I ran a lot of those in heroics, Amrath, RR, IQ etc. Sure I could've done it differently, but that was how I leveled avoiding a lot of repeating.

I agree level 18 is pretty set on quests.

The xp difference is hard to tell. Amrath, RR, IQ are heroic only and I use them to level in heroics. The other quests you mention High Road, Druids Deep, Stormhorns, etc I save for 1st time Epic BB xp.

[FranOhmsford]

1) Well that thread was in the response of the claim that you can run EH once and done and have enough CoV to ETR. I wasn't the only one at that time that made similar recordings to find that information untrue. There was some EE in the mix, but I choose to run EH to prove that point.

2) Yes those are the daily big xp runs, but variety is nice too.

3) I didn't. I ran a lot of those in heroics, Amrath, RR, IQ etc. Sure I could've done it differently, but that was how I leveled avoiding a lot of repeating.

I agree level 18 is pretty set on quests.

The xp difference is hard to tell. Amrath, RR, IQ are heroic only and I use them to level in heroics. The other quests you mention High Road, Druids Deep, Stormhorns, etc I save for 1st time Epic BB xp.

How do you use those quests to level in Heroics though?

Even on a 3rd Lifer I simply don't need to run a single Lvl 17+ Quest to hit 20!
And you know that I loathe repeating quests!

I can maybe see you running IQ1 {Possibly 2} to get the last 100k or so.
But there's 44 Lvl 17-19 Quests not incl. Raids!
No way do you run even HALF of those before hitting 20 unless you're ignoring other quests at Lvls 13-16!

[FranOhmsford]

P.S. Considering Elite is two base levels higher ANY Epic XP total that doesn't include at least lvl 18-19 base level quests cannot be considered complete!

[Braegan]

How do you use those quests to level in Heroics though?

Even on a 3rd Lifer I simply don't need to run a single Lvl 17+ Quest to hit 20!
And you know that I loathe repeating quests!

I can maybe see you running IQ1 {Possibly 2} to get the last 100k or so.
But there's 44 Lvl 17-19 Quests not incl. Raids!
No way do you run even HALF of those before hitting 20 unless you're ignoring other quests at Lvls 13-16!

There are some I skip due to me disliking them and there are some I skip due to them having an Epic counterpart and I'd rather have that 1st time xp during Epic leveling.

[Wizza]

Sorry but you don't get to have it both ways!

We all know that Red Alert is a broken mechanic that the Devs have used on multiple occasions to arbitrarily raise the Challenge Level of content!

IF you personally don't consider Red Alert to be challenging then it must be great to be you BUT then you say that you were actually one of those that complained about Red Alert?
If it's not challenging then WHY did you complain about it?

Not sure why complaining should be related to difficulty. Red Alert as soon as you step in a room is silly. So is the Con damage from the Beholder in EE Ghost of Perdition. Neither of those two make the quest any challenging, it is just irritating for the players.


No what he/she is saying is the two of you (that's why they mentioned both names) claimed there was supposed to be a concentration when it has never been said or implied.

I haven't seen Cetus claim that there was supposed to be a concentration on endgame. I might have missed it, or he just didn't flat out said it. I did say it, but I also said that if we could have BOTH, it would make everyone happy.

It's the same story over and over. You guys think us endgamers just want endgame content over and over, flash news: we don't. Period. We want everyone to be happy, looks like YOU guys don't and just want low level stuff. It's also true that endgame = zero, leveling = ten at the moment.

[FranOhmsford]

There are some I skip due to me disliking them and there are some I skip due to them having an Epic counterpart and I'd rather have that 1st time xp during Epic leveling.

I forgot to mention that I also skip Wheloon on Heroic!

And loathe the Harbour Madness Chain too!

Just GH, Vale, Orchard and LoD will get you from 15-20!

But if you're starting GH at 12-13 then I can possibly see you needing some Lvl 17-18 quests to get to 20.

The fact is though that you're STILL missing quests SO you're once and done total is OFF!

It doesn't matter WHERE you miss those quests:
If an Iconic goes straight to Vale at Lvl 15 then he/she is losing XP from GH, Lordsmarch and Orchard!
If a Player starts running Epics at Lvl 20 without running Lvl 17-19 quests first then he/she is losing XP too!

[FranOhmsford]

Not sure why complaining should be related to difficulty. Red Alert as soon as you step in a room is silly. So is the Con damage from the Beholder in EE Ghost of Perdition. Neither of those two make the quest any challenging, it is just irritating for the players.


Again...You don't get to have it both ways.

It may be silly BUT how is it "Irritating" if its NOT Challenging you?

It would be "Boring" if it wasn't Challenging you NOT Irritating!

[EllisDee37]

I know.
And that's probably the best way to handle it.
My posts you quoted started with me quoting someone that was advocating new low level content.
Hence why I said, if any area needs focus it's not heroics compared to epics.Ah, that explains the confusion then.

The posts you were responding to weren't advocating new low level content. They were advocating that the new planned content -- which will be both heroic and epic -- is targeting the incorrect levels for the heroic version. Specifically, level 18, which I agree is already overflowing with content. Fran's arguing that instead of level 18, the heroic versions should be level 16 or less. I tend to agree with Fran on this point. (I also advocate that the planned level 7 heroic content should instead be level 6.)

Fran has never argued that the level 18/16/whatever it ends up being heroic content shouldn't also be having the epic versions they are already planned to have.

[EllisDee37]

Again...You don't get to have it both ways.

It may be silly BUT how is it "Irritating" if its NOT Challenging you?

It would be "Boring" if it wasn't Challenging you NOT Irritating!I have to agree with Wizza on this particular issue. Red Alert is no more "challenging" than lag is challenging. More difficult, yes, but not more challenging.

"Challenging" implies a fair fight that's hard to overcome. Red Alert is not a fair fight; it's cheating.

[Oxarhamar]

I forgot to mention that I also skip Wheloon on Heroic!

And loathe the Harbour Madness Chain too!

Just GH, Vale, Orchard and LoD will get you from 15-20!

But if you're starting GH at 12-13 then I can possibly see you needing some Lvl 17-18 quests to get to 20.

The fact is though that you're STILL missing quests SO you're once and done total is OFF!

It doesn't matter WHERE you miss those quests:
If an Iconic goes straight to Vale at Lvl 15 then he/she is losing XP from GH, Lordsmarch and Orchard!
If a Player starts running Epics at Lvl 20 without running Lvl 17-19 quests first then he/she is losing XP too!

Just GH, Vale, Orchard, & LoD chain will not take a 3rd lifer from 15-20 even with full Bravery Bonus, 5% ship buff, VoM, Tome of Greater Learning. Not without repeats.

Besides the poster you quoted skipped Heroic content to get XP bonus in Epics that removes GH and now also Orchard.


Running Heroic quests on an Epic Charicter is not a solution to the not enought Epic XP problem /try again.

[Oxarhamar]

P.S. Considering Elite is two base levels higher ANY Epic XP total that doesn't include at least lvl 18-19 base level quests cannot be considered complete!

If entering a Herioc quest that's level was 20 or over on Elite made it qualify as an Epic quest with Epic level XP & Epic rewards (CoV or Heart Seeds) then you might have a leg here

they are still Herioc and no they do not count towards Epic Quests.

[ahpook]

...
The Temple is very large, and we want players to have a reason to explore it even on subsequent runs. ...


If you want this you need to improve the "random" capabilities of your dungeons. Look at haunted halls. Great quest but because the seals can only drop in 2 predefined places, there is no reason to check out the rest of the quest after the first couple of runs. Because the named monsters with the cool items always spawn in the same places there is no reason to run around the quest once you have the item from that mob.

People would need to explore the whole quest if the seals could be anywhere. People would explore the whole quest if Miior could be in other rooms. If the walls moved around so the path wasn't static, people would need to explore. Of course, some people would be aghast that the optimal route for loot or XP per minute was not definitive so you might need to ignore them if your goal is actually to "want players to have a reason to explore it even on subsequent runs".

[nibel]

I have to agree with Wizza on this particular issue. Red Alert is no more "challenging" than lag is challenging. More difficult, yes, but not more challenging.

"Challenging" implies a fair fight that's hard to overcome. Red Alert is not a fair fight; it's cheating.

Same here. On the same verge, I don't consider EE to be "challenging" because it is only the same EH quest, with stats multiplied by ten.

Casters getting new spells above normal (like kobold shaman getting hold person)? Challenging.
Cabal having "random" traps (considering you didn't disarmed them at the start)? Challenging.
In the Flesh's boss battle adding beholders on Elite? Challenging.
Demon's Den marilith changes between difficulties? Challenging.
Arena-based traps that requires positioning (like eDQ antimagic orbs, or LoB rain of blades)? Challenging.

Throwing twenty mobs on you instead of four? Not challenging.
Making those mobs have an extra zero in their HP bars? Not challenging.

[LordKalkin]

Same here. On the same verge, I don't consider EE to be "challenging" because it is only the same EH quest, with stats multiplied by ten.

Casters getting new spells above normal (like kobold shaman getting hold person)? Challenging.
Cabal having "random" traps (considering you didn't disarmed them at the start)? Challenging.
In the Flesh's boss battle adding beholders on Elite? Challenging.
Demon's Den marilith changes between difficulties? Challenging.
Arena-based traps that requires positioning (like eDQ antimagic orbs, or LoB rain of blades)? Challenging.

Throwing twenty mobs on you instead of four? Not challenging.
Making those mobs have an extra zero in their HP bars? Not challenging.

Amen.

Forcing players to change and adapt their tactics or strategy is challenging.
Making us do the same thing for twice as long is not challenging.

[Hendrik]

Same here. On the same verge, I don't consider EE to be "challenging" because it is only the same EH quest, with stats multiplied by ten.

Casters getting new spells above normal (like kobold shaman getting hold person)? Challenging.
Cabal having "random" traps (considering you didn't disarmed them at the start)? Challenging.
In the Flesh's boss battle adding beholders on Elite? Challenging.
Demon's Den marilith changes between difficulties? Challenging.
Arena-based traps that requires positioning (like eDQ antimagic orbs, or LoB rain of blades)? Challenging.

Throwing twenty mobs on you instead of four? Not challenging.
Making those mobs have an extra zero in their HP bars? Not challenging.

Excellent suggestions to make content more challenging.


I really like the first one!

[Hendrik]

I have to agree with Wizza on this particular issue. Red Alert is no more "challenging" than lag is challenging. More difficult, yes, but not more challenging.

"Challenging" implies a fair fight that's hard to overcome. Red Alert is not a fair fight; it's cheating.

In 80-90% of RA cases it is the player zerging, that's not challenging; it's cheating. It's attempting to bypass content. Content is the very thing everyone wants. And when they learn to bypass the next content, they will want more to bypass as well.

No wonder people get RA when they invis and run by everything to the end fight.

;)

Remaining percentage are honest problems with certain quests/instances.

We have had very challenging and fair encounters, Thunderholm for example.

But it was to much of a challenge and it was nerfed into mediocrity. People only want a challenge if there is a guaranteed win.

[EllisDee37]

In 80-90% of RA cases it is the player zerging, that's not challenging; it's cheating. It's attempting to bypass content. Content is the very thing everyone wants. And when they learn to bypass the next content, they will want more to bypass as well.

No wonder people get RA when they invis and run by everything to the end fight.We were discussing the 10-20% of RA cases that aren't the player zerging. "Unearned" red alert isn't challenge, it's cheating.

[Qhualor]

Throwing twenty mobs on you instead of four? Not challenging.
Making those mobs have an extra zero in their HP bars? Not challenging.

I agree that those are not what I would call challenge, but I look at it as slowing us down as we progress or killing time. look at how much damage we deal now and how quickly we kill mobs even on EE. for certain builds or for those that solo, without CC or tactics, without decent defense and self sufficiency it can take a little longer than with more players in the group, a Blitzer, CC, star player, etc.

the extra 0's are more annoying on bosses in higher level epic content, but it seems its all the devs can do since AI is what needs the improvement to actually make content more of a challenge.

[Uska]

I forgot to mention that I also skip Wheloon on Heroic!

And loathe the Harbour Madness Chain too!

Just GH, Vale, Orchard and LoD will get you from 15-20!

But if you're starting GH at 12-13 then I can possibly see you needing some Lvl 17-18 quests to get to 20.

The fact is though that you're STILL missing quests SO you're once and done total is OFF!

It doesn't matter WHERE you miss those quests:
If an Iconic goes straight to Vale at Lvl 15 then he/she is losing XP from GH, Lordsmarch and Orchard!
If a Player starts running Epics at Lvl 20 without running Lvl 17-19 quests first then he/she is losing XP too!

I skip all of evening star except the LOD chain and only have to repeat if I wish

[FranOhmsford]

Fran has never argued that the level 18/16/whatever it ends up being heroic content shouldn't also be having the epic versions they are already planned to have.

Quite the opposite actually!

Lvl 18 Heroic versions of Lvl 26 Epic Quests is quite frankly silly - It didn't work with Stormhorns or High Road - It won't work with Xoriat!

What it does is:
1) splits up the number of people willing to run EITHER!
2) Makes anything less than Heroic Elite utterly pointless {and HE only worth it to get your favour!}.
3) Reduces the requirement to run Epic Elite {You can get your Favour on Heroic!}.

Now a Lower Level Heroic version would still suffer from these issues BUT not so much!

Because:
1) Take VoN for example - This gets run at BOTH Epic and Heroic for a Reason!
2) Look at Sentinels - Pre Saga and Post MotU this hardly ever got run on EITHER Epic or Heroic
3) High Level Heroic Quests suffer heavily from Loot being less than Greensteel anyway AND utterly outmoded the instant you hit Lvl 20!

Now they could make a Heroic Xoriat Saga with the 3 Chains + Delirium {a total of 13 Quests} BUT that would make the Epic version of the new Xoriat Pack even LESS worth running {When the Heroic Version is so much easier and gives a massive Saga Bonus!}.

[FranOhmsford]

I have to agree with Wizza on this particular issue. Red Alert is no more "challenging" than lag is challenging. More difficult, yes, but not more challenging.

"Challenging" implies a fair fight that's hard to overcome. Red Alert is not a fair fight; it's cheating.

We all know what "Challenging" means when it's brought up about Quests/Raids in DDO!

Red Alert is a Dev created system - Lag ISN'T!

The two cannot be compared!

[Qhualor]

We all know what "Challenging" means when it's brought up about Quests/Raids in DDO!

Red Alert is a Dev created system - Lag ISN'T!

The two cannot be compared!

certain types of lag were created by the devs when they created red alert that some players create themselves.

[FranOhmsford]

Just GH, Vale, Orchard, & LoD chain will not take a 3rd lifer from 15-20 even with full Bravery Bonus, 5% ship buff, VoM, Tome of Greater Learning. Not without repeats.

Besides the poster you quoted skipped Heroic content to get XP bonus in Epics that removes GH and now also Orchard.


Running Heroic quests on an Epic Charicter is not a solution to the not enought Epic XP problem /try again.

Taking my points out of context here!

The poster I was replying to stated that there isn't enough content to go from 20-28 once and done - He may be right about that but I doubt it as I'm pretty certain he's ignoring the insane amount of XP available in Epic Slayers!

He's also ignoring the Lvl 17-19 Quests - We all know why these don't get run by Epic Characters BUT they do still count when talking about XP available to Epic Characters!

IF you're going to ignore certain quests than you cannot state that there isn't enough XP available!

[FranOhmsford]

If entering a Herioc quest that's level was 20 or over on Elite made it qualify as an Epic quest with Epic level XP & Epic rewards (CoV or Heart Seeds) then you might have a leg here

they are still Herioc and no they do not count towards Epic Quests.

On Elite a Lvl 18 Quest is Lvl 20
On Elite a Lvl 19 Quest is Lvl 21
This means that you get FULL XP even as a Lvl 28!
HoX gives FULL XP on Elite even with 28s in the group so long as you don't have a Power-Levelling Penalty!

CoVs and Heart Seeds are a different matter not pertaining to this question:
Lvl 18 Quests are available for FULL XP + BB to any Lvl 20 Character!
Lvl 19 Quests are available for FULL XP + BB to any Lvl 20 or 21 Character!
It's quite easy to hit Lvl 22 without running a SINGLE Epic Quest!

[nibel]

the extra 0's are more annoying on bosses in higher level epic content, but it seems its all the devs can do since AI is what needs the improvement to actually make content more of a challenge.

I will disagree. While, yes, improving AI would vastly improve mob tactics and challenge level, you can still do much without touching AI.

One simple example that I gave months ago is to remove Epic Ward, and make every mob in EE (and bosses and minibosses in EH) have a random special ability. Like the glittering mobs in Diablo series. We could make a random table (with even "no effect" as a possible result) with a myriad of effects, like "elemental shield" (like fire shield, but with every possible element, including negative/force/radiant), "teleport" (like orthons), "Mind Blank" (immune to enchantment), "Death Ward" (like the spell), "Fast Healing", "Toughness" (double HP or 50% damage reduction all-around), "Quick Reactions" (Evasion and permahaste), "Shielded" (have the benefits of Nightshield, Shield of Faith, Spiderskin, and Stoneskin), etc, etc.

This would be challenging because if you run the same quest twice, you are almost guaranteed to not find the exact same mobs you fought before, forcing you to adapt your tactics on the fly, OR even make use of a scout to check in advance what is the ability of every mob in the pack.

The devs can also make the standard changes to mob by difficulty, like giving different spells for every caster as difficulty raises (EE casters can have more no-save spells like Power Words), or giving the melee enemies debuffing effects, like archers usually have Hamstring.

Or even changing quest objectives in mild ways. Eg, Prison of the Planes requires 6 orbs on normal, 7 on hard, 8 on elite. Some quests starts requiring the death of some miniboss in the dungeon (eg, the matrons in the eveningstar drow quests).

Heck, even doing as The Stormreaver Fresco (http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Stormreaver_Fresco), a level 4 quest, and have some mobs ONLY spawn on EE, and give those mobs specific powers. Eg, in the Xoriat quests they could have a Xorian Duality Render, that is immune to cold AND fire, and combine the attacks of fire reavers and ice flensers.

Improving AI is an effective way to giving us more challenge, but hardly the only one.

[Cetus]

Cetus you need to come to grips that coins are not single sided. Neither is the demand for end game content.

Come to grips? What does that even mean? I have an opinion and I'm voicing it. Midlevel content is junk by its very definition, given massive historical precedent.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Come to grips? What does that even mean? I have an opinion and I'm voicing it. Midlevel content is junk by its very definition, given massive historical precedent.

It's only junk to YOU and other like minded individuals. There are plenty of people that like to level and dislike endgame, there are some that like low level content mid level content etc etc.

I highly doubt the masses play "like you do or enjoy all the same things you do" and I think that's some peoples opinions and they are voicing it.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Everyone seems to have forgotten the DEVs asking us what our favorite modules were....

Asking us here, on the forums.

The DEVs asked, players replied and now we get to play ToEE.

They should have asked in a poll that would have reached out to far more people especially if it was done like oxarhamer suggested.

[FestusHood]

Just GH, Vale, Orchard and LoD will get you from 15-20!



I have to question this. You are saying you can do this without significant repeating?

You've mentioned in the past that people are capping legend toons just running Gianthold. What are they doing, repeating it 37 times?

My level 17 toon is contemplating whether to finish out running Eveningstar stuff or do his leveling in Eberron. I would expect running Vale quests will get me up to level 18. I'm still going to have to run some higher level stuff somewhere to get to cap, unless i repeat the vale quests, which i won't because i don't actually like them much.

I agree there is enough higher level content that you can level up to cap either in Eberron or Forgotten Realms, but i don't see how you cap without doing higher level quests in either place.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I have an opinion and I'm voicing it. Midlevel content is junk by its very definition...

This is EXACTLY what I thought you meant. See this is why the forums, as awesome as this community still is, is very difficult for developers to navigate and extrapolate useful information in a timely fashion. This is where the Player Council and forum mods play integral roles, to both help interpret many different members opinions of the community, and to present it to the developers so they can do what they do best, develop the best game possible for us.

Said another way, people play for a variety of reasons, and in a variety of different ways, with different time frames and entirely different goals. Some people enjoy the journey, in addition to the endgame. Others prefer mainly the endgame. Within these avenues, there's many different levels of grey. So to me, the entire game needs to be satisfying enough to succeed in satisfying as much as the playerbase as they can.

Id love to see more challange across all levels, however it should never be in spite of our casual players, or low/mid level content. I believe Turbine is doing what's best for the game, and what they are planning here can be very very good for the game.


What does that even mean? .....

Havent seen a single sided coin before? It means that there's more sides than Cetus' side. The game needs to satisfy more than Cetus' playstyle and desires. I'm with you with the need for more challenge, but why throw Turbine's hard work, and the majority of the DDO playerbase under the bus by comments like you made above?

[EllisDee37]

Quite the opposite actually!So you ARE arguing that the new content should be heroic-only, with no epic version? Because that's what "the opposite" of what you quoted would mean.

[EllisDee37]

Midlevel content is junk by its very definition, given massive historical precedent.Attack On Stormreach is excellent content, and was mid-level when it was created.

Harbinger of Madness is also pretty solid. Good production value, and the final quest has some of that challenge you crave so much.

Did Red Fens count as mid-level? If new level 26 epic content now is mid-level, then I think Red Fens qualified as mid-level back in the day. Red Fens is quality content.

If Red Fens counts as mid-level by virtue of being part of the easy epics back in the day, so too should Phiarlan Carnival. Which is another solid pack.

[FranOhmsford]

So you ARE arguing that the new content should be heroic-only, with no epic version? Because that's what "the opposite" of what you quoted would mean.


Please Re-read the post you replied to - Here it is:




Fran has never argued that the level 18/16/whatever it ends up being heroic content shouldn't also be having the epic versions they are already planned to have.

Quite the opposite actually!

Lvl 18 Heroic versions of Lvl 26 Epic Quests is quite frankly silly - It didn't work with Stormhorns or High Road - It won't work with Xoriat!

What it does is:
1) splits up the number of people willing to run EITHER!
2) Makes anything less than Heroic Elite utterly pointless {and HE only worth it to get your favour!}.
3) Reduces the requirement to run Epic Elite {You can get your Favour on Heroic!}.

Now a Lower Level Heroic version would still suffer from these issues BUT not so much!

Because:
1) Take VoN for example - This gets run at BOTH Epic and Heroic for a Reason!
2) Look at Sentinels - Pre Saga and Post MotU this hardly ever got run on EITHER Epic or Heroic
3) High Level Heroic Quests suffer heavily from Loot being less than Greensteel anyway AND utterly outmoded the instant you hit Lvl 20!

Now they could make a Heroic Xoriat Saga with the 3 Chains + Delirium {a total of 13 Quests} BUT that would make the Epic version of the new Xoriat Pack even LESS worth running {When the Heroic Version is so much easier and gives a massive Saga Bonus!}.


There is nothing in there that says the New Content should be Heroic only!

In fact I've blatantly stated on more than one occasion that the New Xoriat Pack should be EPIC ONLY!

[EllisDee37]

Please Re-read the post you replied to - Here it is:




There is nothing in there that says the New Content should be Heroic only!Yeah, no kidding. That's what I said. You then quoted me and said "Quite the opposite, actually!" for no apparent reason.

Perhaps you might re-read what I wrote to understand it better. If the negatives are confusing, it can be re-written as "Fran thinks the new content should have epic versions."

To which you replied: "Quite the opposite!"

[FranOhmsford]

I have to question this. You are saying you can do this without significant repeating?

You've mentioned in the past that people are capping legend toons just running Gianthold. What are they doing, repeating it 37 times?

In the past {I assume you're talking about other threads here?} I've stated that it's POSSIBLE to cap20 legends just from Gianthold Saga runs!

That is NOT the same as stating that everyone is doing this!


My level 17 toon is contemplating whether to finish out running Eveningstar stuff or do his leveling in Eberron. I would expect running Vale quests will get me up to level 18. I'm still going to have to run some higher level stuff somewhere to get to cap, unless i repeat the vale quests, which i won't because i don't actually like them much.

And when did you start running GH?

12?
13?
14?
15?

Remember that you're already Soft Capped 16 before you even get to GH:
Running GH at 15 will get you to 16 soft capping 17
Running Orchard at 16 will get you to 17 soft capping 18
Running Litany/Vale will get you a 3rd of the way into 19.
And LoD/Servants/Spinner/Rift will basically leave you with the choice between running a couple of Vale Slayer Clearances {Maybe a Battlefield Clearance for variety} OR running IQ.




I agree there is enough higher level content that you can level up to cap either in Eberron or Forgotten Realms, but i don't see how you cap without doing higher level quests in either place.

See above.

[FranOhmsford]

Yeah, no kidding. That's what I said. You then quoted me and said "Quite the opposite, actually!" for no apparent reason.

Perhaps you might re-read what I wrote to understand it better.

I really don't know why we're having this argument!

I was NOT saying quite the opposite of YOU but quite the opposite of what you were saying said other poster had said I said {My Lord that's convoluted!}

I have NOT said that the new Xoriat Pack should be Heroic Only
QUITE THE OPPOSITE:
I HAVE Stated that said content should be EPIC ONLY!

[EllisDee37]

I really don't know why we're having this argument as you stated:

I was NOT saying quite the opposite of YOU but quite the opposite of what you were saying said other poster had said I said {My Lord that's convoluted!}

I have NOT said that the new Xoriat Pack should be Heroic Only
QUITE THE OPPOSITE:
I HAVE Stated that said content should be EPIC ONLY!Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Now I get it.

You should have quoted him, then, not me. Because you said "Quite the Opposite" to MY post, not his.

[FranOhmsford]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Now I get it.

You should have quoted him, then, not me. Because you said "Quite the Opposite" to MY post, not his.

Aaaaargggh! {The Pedantry!}


You were the one who posted that so it was YOU I replied to!

You put what he said into those words - I just corrected your summary!

[Oxarhamar]

Taking my points out of context here!

The poster I was replying to stated that there isn't enough content to go from 20-28 once and done - He may be right about that but I doubt it as I'm pretty certain he's ignoring the insane amount of XP available in Epic Slayers!

He's also ignoring the Lvl 17-19 Quests - We all know why these don't get run by Epic Characters BUT they do still count when talking about XP available to Epic Characters!

IF you're going to ignore certain quests than you cannot state that there isn't enough XP available!

Your the one going out of context in the post I quoted.

The poster you quoted was specifically speaking of Epic content.

High level Heroic quests are not Epics. Can they be run by low level epic charicters yes but, one is not the same as the other.

[Oxarhamar]

On Elite a Lvl 18 Quest is Lvl 20
On Elite a Lvl 19 Quest is Lvl 21
This means that you get FULL XP even as a Lvl 28!
HoX gives FULL XP on Elite even with 28s in the group so long as you don't have a Power-Levelling Penalty!

CoVs and Heart Seeds are a different matter not pertaining to this question:
Lvl 18 Quests are available for FULL XP + BB to any Lvl 20 Character!
Lvl 19 Quests are available for FULL XP + BB to any Lvl 20 or 21 Character!
It's quite easy to hit Lvl 22 without running a SINGLE Epic Quest!

CoV & Heart Seeds are absolutely pertinent

these are not Epic Quests and don not get accounted into having enough EPIC content.

LVL 18 & 19 quests are not Epic.
They do not provide Epic LVL XP.
They do not provide Epic rewards.

no amount of stretching will change this.

Hey, Even LVL 17 quest can be run by a LVL 20 Epic Charicter with no XP Penalty, next you'll suggest running those for Epic XP as well.

[FranOhmsford]

CoV & Heart Seeds are absolutely pertinent

these are not Epic Quests and don not get accounted into having enough EPIC content.

LVL 18 & 19 quests are not Epic.
They do not provide Epic LVL XP.
They do not provide Epic rewards.

no amount of stretching will change this.

Hey, Even LVL 17 quest can be run by a LVL 20 Epic Charicter with no XP Penalty, next you'll suggest running those for Epic XP as well.

CoVs and Heart Seeds are NOT pertinent to the conversation!

Because: The conversation was specifically about XP and being able to Once and Done to 28!

NOT about getting enough CoVs to TR!

And no amount of "stretching" will make CoVs or Heart Seeds anything to do with XP!


We DON'T start this game at Lvl 20 ONLY able to run Epic Quests!
We DON'T get to Lvl 20 having completed EVERY lvl 1-20 quest {Unless we've specifically been Hard Capping our way there and NOT levelling until EVERY quest of the level we're at is done - I'm sure someone's done that but that person is NOT the standard!}.
We DON'T only count the XP in EH 1st time Bonus when talking about the XP available in game to once and done to 28! {Even though the Devs specifically stated that running EH should provide that XP}.

Let's not even get into how much XP is available from the Monster Manual - It's NOT a trivial amount!


The majority of 3rd + lifers I'm sure do NOT take levels as soon as they're able to!
A good proportion of 3rd + lifers {whether they're once and doners like me OR High XP Quest Farmers} will be Soft Capping as early as Lvl 8!
And they will continue to soft cap right up to 20!

Even now it's highly unlikely you'll see too many people who aren't total newbies take 19 before they're ready to take 20!

So hitting 20 from Lvl 16 Quests is NOT a rarity!


Ignoring completely the 44 level 17-20 Quests when talking about once and donning to 28 is just plain wrong! {Yes there is extra XP in those 17s BUT I purposefully ignored them as I knew because they don't count for BB at 20 I'd be attacked for counting them!}.



Of course the ignoring of these Quests has caused an imbalance in the game where Newbies are hitting 20 and suddenly expected to go straight from Vale Flagging to Epics!
There is a HUGE difference between Vale Flagging and Epics!

You can say that those Newbies should be running RR, Heroic Druid's or High Road, IQ or Amrath all you like BUT who are they supposed to run those quests with?
Even on Normal these are quests that have a very good chance of failure without Knowledgeable Players in group!

These are also NOT popular Packs - Unlike VoN or Carnival or Sands or even Sentinels or Fens!


P.S. If you're E-TRing this life then you could do a lot worse than clear your backlog of 17-19 Quests so as to get to 22 without touching Epics!

[Oxarhamar]

CoVs and Heart Seeds are NOT pertinent to the conversation!

Because: The conversation was specifically about XP and being able to Once and Done to 28!

NOT about getting enough CoVs to TR!

And no amount of "stretching" will make CoVs or Heart Seeds anything to do with XP!


We DON'T start this game at Lvl 20 ONLY able to run Epic Quests!
We DON'T get to Lvl 20 having completed EVERY lvl 1-20 quest {Unless we've specifically been Hard Capping our way there and NOT levelling until EVERY quest of the level we're at is done - I'm sure someone's done that but that person is NOT the standard!}.
We DON'T only count the XP in EH 1st time Bonus when talking about the XP available in game to once and done to 28! {Even though the Devs specifically stated that running EH should provide that XP}.

Let's not even get into how much XP is available from the Monster Manual - It's NOT a trivial amount!


The majority of 3rd + lifers I'm sure do NOT take levels as soon as they're able to!
A good proportion of 3rd + lifers {whether they're once and doners like me OR High XP Quest Farmers} will be Soft Capping as early as Lvl 8!
And they will continue to soft cap right up to 20!

Even now it's highly unlikely you'll see too many people who aren't total newbies take 19 before they're ready to take 20!

So hitting 20 from Lvl 16 Quests is NOT a rarity!


Ignoring completely the 44 level 17-20 Quests when talking about once and donning to 28 is just plain wrong! {Yes there is extra XP in those 17s BUT I purposefully ignored them as I knew because they don't count for BB at 20 I'd be attacked for counting them!}.



Of course the ignoring of these Quests has caused an imbalance in the game where Newbies are hitting 20 and suddenly expected to go straight from Vale Flagging to Epics!
There is a HUGE difference between Vale Flagging and Epics!

You can say that those Newbies should be running RR, Heroic Druid's or High Road, IQ or Amrath all you like BUT who are they supposed to run those quests with?
Even on Normal these are quests that have a very good chance of failure without Knowledgeable Players in group!

These are also NOT popular Packs - Unlike VoN or Carnival or Sands or even Sentinels or Fens!


P.S. If you're E-TRing this life then you could do a lot worse than clear your backlog of 17-19 Quests so as to get to 22 without touching Epics!



Herioc content is not Epic Content.

PS. If your ETRing this life you could flag up your sagas and start beyond LVL 22.

[esojiul]

good idea

[Uska]

Come to grips? What does that even mean? I have an opinion and I'm voicing it. Midlevel content is junk by its very definition, given massive historical precedent.

Yes that is your opinion mine is epic d&d of any kind including ddo is a bad idea and boring thst is my opinion and I expect no one to share it

[Uska]

It's only junk to YOU and other like minded individuals. There are plenty of people that like to level and dislike endgame, there are some that like low level content mid level content etc etc.

I highly doubt the masses play "like you do or enjoy all the same things you do" and I think that's some peoples opinions and they are voicing it.

+1 well said

[Braegan]

Ah, that explains the confusion then.

The posts you were responding to weren't advocating new low level content. They were advocating that the new planned content -- which will be both heroic and epic -- is targeting the incorrect levels for the heroic version. Specifically, level 18, which I agree is already overflowing with content. Fran's arguing that instead of level 18, the heroic versions should be level 16 or less. I tend to agree with Fran on this point. (I also advocate that the planned level 7 heroic content should instead be level 6.)

Fran has never argued that the level 18/16/whatever it ends up being heroic content shouldn't also be having the epic versions they are already planned to have.

There is still confusion. :)

The post you quoted of me and responded to was me responding to something Uska said, not Fran.

[Braegan]

Just GH, Vale, Orchard and LoD will get you from 15-20!

But if you're starting GH at 12-13 then I can possibly see you needing some Lvl 17-18 quests to get to 20.

The fact is though that you're STILL missing quests SO you're once and done total is OFF!



Wow, we are getting OT, lol.

Ok one run through, elite BB, will not take a 3rd life+ character from 15-20 with just GH, Vale, Orchard and LoD.

If you really must know. I start GH at usually 15.2. I then run GH until I hit level 17 and hold off on it. I then run Orchard and Litany until into 18. I then head to the vale run that once. I then run LoD chain once. That usally puts me around 19. I wrap up with whatever I feel like at that point. Usually Amrath, IQ1, few Sane Asylumns, maybe RR.

And no. Missing running quests does not mean my total is off. The concept of once and done is something I sort of adopt. I have said before some quests I like so I repeat them, some quests I do not like so I skip them. But the once and done means running a quest once and moving on until cap. Just because you don't need to run every quest to cap does not mean my total is off.

Regarding other posts in reference to me.

Yes I do largely skip Slayers XP. I don't care for it. In heroics I have the choice to completely ignore Slayers and could still once and done my way to cap. I do not have that choice in Epics. Flat out there is more content for heroics, that isn't even a debate. All I want is to have the same luxury of the choice in Epic play as I do in Heroic.

Starting Epic content as soon as you hit 20/ETR is much preferred for CoV and heart seeds. You may not think it's relevant but I disagree. Unless you want to spend a bunch of extra time at cap farming for heart seeds, but that is very counter productive.

[Neomarica]

Two quick corrections: While we did defeat Malicia in Big Top, we fight her again in Wrath of the Flame and destroy her for good (since it is on her native plane). She can't go back for vengeance because outsiders can't be raised from the dead.

Also, Queen Lailat is dead. The whole reason why we had to collect the Sands flagging items is so that Zawabi can reverse her sealed haven and prevent her soul from escaping to Shavarath. Then we invade and kill her for good, since Zawabi prevented her from being "banished back to Shavarath" upon defeat. She also can't come back for revenge.

Not true, True Resurrection can bring outsiders back. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm

[Hendrik]

They should have asked in a poll that would have reached out to far more people especially if it was done like oxarhamer suggested.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Even IF they did a poll, someone here would be upset about the poll itself, it's choices, how it was presented/delivered, or even the wording.

Still blown away people are getting upset that we are getting another Tribute Module! We started asking for another one the very day HH launched! Many offered to pay extra cash to get one because they enjoyed it so much and wanted more.

We got what we asked for and people are upset that we got what we asked for, again.

Rather sad....

[SilkofDrasnia]

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Even IF they did a poll, someone here would be upset about the poll itself, it's choices, how it was presented/delivered, or even the wording.

Still blown away people are getting upset that we are getting another Tribute Module! We started asking for another one the very day HH launched! Many offered to pay extra cash to get one because they enjoyed it so much and wanted more.

We got what we asked for and people are upset that we got what we asked for, again.

Rather sad....

Indeed but if we don't "moan" now we can't really complain if they don't do a poll next time can we? As for TOEE I don't think anyone is unhappy about that, this is a good thing and I posted as such but the xoriat **** well...

Btw I am not upset, would just have liked to been able to give my input on this before now.

[catouse9]

Just wait until someone talks them into releasing the mother of all famed dungeons...The Tomb of Horrors. As far as I know, it's not even on the drawing board, and I can already hear the wailing of players. Especially without access to herds of cattle.

Tomb O' Horrors was the hardest dungeon ever-Seems to me like it was made to punish players or at least have a last man standing kind of contest-If they could do it properly on DDO it would probably make a lot of folks who say the game is too easy very happy.

[nibel]

Not true, True Resurrection can bring outsiders back. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm

Huh, interesting. Never noticed this property in True Ressurrection.

Might work for Malicia, but still not for Lailat, since Zawabi specifically sealed out her soul.

[FestusHood]

Even now it's highly unlikely you'll see too many people who aren't total newbies take 19 before they're ready to take 20!



I often take level 19 on my characters. By the time i have finished the level 16 content, I have never yet been capped. Yes, that includes running both vale and wheloon. Since i don't want to repeat quests i move on to level 17 or higher quests, depending on what i want to run.

Banking levels was made somewhat archaic by the change to the xp curve. That's why i don't ever have a problem running low on content in the levels 8-12, or whatever supposedly has a quest shortage. Banking levels was only ever necessary to prepare yourself for the shortage of xp available in the higher levels back with the old xp curve.

[Failedlegend]

Currently there is enough heroic xp to once and done your way 1-20.
Currently there is not enough epic xp to once and done your way through 20-28.

That is why the focus is and currently should be on epic level quests.

Personally I think the best would to do new content in a cycle like this(obviously there's so leeway based on the size of the quest pack,etc. ie. if there's say 12 quests from 1-7 I'd say going to a Lvl 10 pack next would be no issue)

1,4,7,10,13,16,19,21,24,27,30,2,5,8,11,14,17,20,23 ,26,29,3,6,9,12,15,18,22,25,28,repeat.

or assuming that all Level 11-20 quests will have a heroic AND epic version now (This is my preferred way as this caters to more levels at once

1,4,7,10,13/21,16/24, 19/27, 30, 2,5,8,11/20,14/23,17/26,29,3,6,9,12/22,15/25, 18/28, repeat

Note: Leaving Level 29/30 quests w/o heroic versions is so they can better cater to "End-Game" players, tis not my style but I try to consider most everyone when I make suggestions


Irregardless of the "best method" For the LOVE of gygax we NEED new Lvl 1-3ish content.

[SilkofDrasnia]

I often take level 19 on my characters. By the time i have finished the level 16 content, I have never yet been capped. Yes, that includes running both vale and wheloon. Since i don't want to repeat quests i move on to level 17 or higher quests, depending on what i want to run.

Banking levels was made somewhat archaic by the change to the xp curve. That's why i don't ever have a problem running low on content in the levels 8-12, or whatever supposedly has a quest shortage. Banking levels was only ever necessary to prepare yourself for the shortage of xp available in the higher levels back with the old xp curve.

Just to pipe in I would like to see more level 15 quests.

[fangblackhawk]

with all the plane hopping that happens in this game we should travel to the city of doors, planescape, we then have a reasonable and valid means to world jump more around and visit this classic campaign along with any othe campaign in all of d&d ... just random thoughts here, necro 5 in ravenloft, a low level dragon raid in krynn, ect..... the possibilitys would be endless

[psykopeta]

Come to grips? What does that even mean? I have an opinion and I'm voicing it. Midlevel content is junk by its very definition, given massive historical precedent.

for me junk is having to repeat the same quest 3248472o3 times to lvl, like we did til the repetition and xp curve changes

in fact i skip more low lvl quests (cause i hard cap w/o wanting) than middle lvl ones

sadly for the same reason i have to skip high lvl quest ones (nice thing the ones i skip at low lvls and high lvls are the ones with epic version)

so you can hit 28 with doing once every quest ingame, in fact there're some quests to spare

midlevel quests are the ones that allow people to skip quests that have epic version

ofc these quests can be skipped with otto boxes and iconic, but that doesn't make em junk, at least not by definition, they save money and time

[Oxarhamar]

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Even IF they did a poll, someone here would be upset about the poll itself, it's choices, how it was presented/delivered, or even the wording.

Still blown away people are getting upset that we are getting another Tribute Module! We started asking for another one the very day HH launched! Many offered to pay extra cash to get one because they enjoyed it so much and wanted more.

We got what we asked for and people are upset that we got what we asked for, again.

Rather sad....


Yeah I don't think it's as simple as being upset about what we are getting more about the difference in what we were told we would get and what we are getting. The change of plans based on player feedback that came from where exactly? I know there was a thread a while back asking what players favorite content was but, I'm not finding it.

Also I've already posted the relevant bit of the July producers letter and it is very confusing because, the letter is split into sections based on Update with all future plans jumbled into the U24 section which made it appear like Abaurock was due for U24 but, in rereading it was planned for the later.

Still think an in game survey would reach the broadest section of players.

The players have enjoyed being in the know and in the process of effecting changes we have seen since the Devs have been more communicative with us has backfired with thier hush hush about this update.

SUPRIZE it's Xoriat! We feel left out and as if we had a fast one pulled on us believing U24 was due to be Anaurock thanks to the confusion in July's letter.




The tribute module sounds great. They are opening the possibility to visit any and all DND settings with the addition of Greyhaek.
Personally though I hope it is not another Haunted Halls. To expand I was highly disappointed that a Module as large as Haunted Halls was turned into one Gaint quest instead of a Chain or even Multiple Quests in the same instance. I truly hope that ToEE looks more like Tangleroot reentering the dungeon to complete different objectives as we advance through the storyline.

[The_Human_Cypher]

with all the plane hopping that happens in this game we should travel to the city of doors, planescape, we then have a reasonable and valid means to world jump more around and visit this classic campaign along with any othe campaign in all of d&d ... just random thoughts here, necro 5 in ravenloft, a low level dragon raid in krynn, ect..... the possibilitys would be endless

I am hoping that the Hall of Heroes eventually become The Hub of the Planes, and we get to visit Ravenloft, Planescape, Spelljammers, and other D&D campaign worlds if only for one quest.

[jalont]

Yeah I don't think it's as simple as being upset about what we are getting more about the difference in what we were told we would get and what we are getting. The change of plans based on player feedback that came from where exactly? I know there was a thread a while back asking what players favorite content was but, I'm not finding it.

Also I've already posted the relevant bit of the July producers letter and it is very confusing because, the letter is split into sections based on Update with all future plans jumbled into the U24 section which made it appear like Abaurock was due for U24 but, in rereading it was planned for the later.

Still think an in game survey would reach the broadest section of players.

The players have enjoyed being in the know and in the process of effecting changes we have seen since the Devs have been more communicative with us has backfired with thier hush hush about this update.

SUPRIZE it's Xoriat! We feel left out and as if we had a fast one pulled on us believing U24 was due to be Anaurock thanks to the confusion in July's letter.




The tribute module sounds great. They are opening the possibility to visit any and all DND settings with the addition of Greyhaek.
Personally though I hope it is not another Haunted Halls. To expand I was highly disappointed that a Module as large as Haunted Halls was turned into one Gaint quest instead of a Chain or even Multiple Quests in the same instance. I truly hope that ToEE looks more like Tangleroot reentering the dungeon to complete different objectives as we advance through the storyline.

Personally, I think players should be completely excluded from the decision process because they're horrible at designing anything. Player feedback was listened to entirely too much during the bard and pally reboots, and it has created such a mess that it's completely changed the game DDO is within just two updates.

Absolutely horrible.

[Oxarhamar]

Personally, I think players should be completely excluded from the decision process because they're horrible at designing anything. Player feedback was listened to entirely too much during the bard and pally reboots, and it has created such a mess that it's completely changed the game DDO is within just two updates.

Absolutely horrible.

Oh yes because, it was the players who came up with swashbuckler & Holy Sword.

It's ok if you want to exclude your self from the discussions. We won't complain about that one bit.

[jalont]

Oh yes because, it was the players who came up with swashbuckler & Holy Sword.

It's ok if you want to exclude your self from the discussions. We won't complain about that one bit.

For the most part, I do exclude myself from design discussions except for blanket statements like more challenge please, more balance please or less needless player buffs please. ;)

[catouse9]

That is,why I want new low and level quests

I'm cool with what ever quests they want to make the more the merrier-But I am kind of new and have not even done all the quests yet.

[Uska]

Personally, I think players should be completely excluded from the decision process because they're horrible at designing anything. Player feedback was listened to entirely too much during the bard and pally reboots, and it has created such a mess that it's completely changed the game DDO is within just two updates.

Absolutely horrible.

yes they but the barb ones look worse

[Monkey-Boy]

with all the plane hopping that happens in this game we should travel to the city of doors, planescape, we then have a reasonable and valid means to world jump more around and visit this classic campaign along with any othe campaign in all of d&d ... just random thoughts here, necro 5 in ravenloft, a low level dragon raid in krynn, ect..... the possibilitys would be endless

City of Doors would be the bestamest expansion ever. But man that would cost something huge to get made.

[Seikojin]

I don't quite know if it was made clear or not, but is the lam preview going to contain ToEE? I don't think so, but I hope so? :D

[Hendrik]

Yeah I don't think it's as simple as being upset about what we are getting more about the difference in what we were told we would get and what we are getting. The change of plans based on player feedback that came from where exactly? I know there was a thread a while back asking what players favorite content was but, I'm not finding it.

Also I've already posted the relevant bit of the July producers letter and it is very confusing because, the letter is split into sections based on Update with all future plans jumbled into the U24 section which made it appear like Abaurock was due for U24 but, in rereading it was planned for the later.

Still think an in game survey would reach the broadest section of players.

The players have enjoyed being in the know and in the process of effecting changes we have seen since the Devs have been more communicative with us has backfired with thier hush hush about this update.

SUPRIZE it's Xoriat! We feel left out and as if we had a fast one pulled on us believing U24 was due to be Anaurock thanks to the confusion in July's letter.




The tribute module sounds great. They are opening the possibility to visit any and all DND settings with the addition of Greyhaek.
Personally though I hope it is not another Haunted Halls. To expand I was highly disappointed that a Module as large as Haunted Halls was turned into one Gaint quest instead of a Chain or even Multiple Quests in the same instance. I truly hope that ToEE looks more like Tangleroot reentering the dungeon to complete different objectives as we advance through the storyline.

Plans change, we all know that by now, or at least we should and not be surprised when it does happen. The feedback that pushed anything back or changed what was going to be done when prolly came from the PC.

Knowing how that kinda thing works with Turbine and based on past experiences, the push back for those things is a good thing - in the fact that things were not ready based on feedback. I am just speculating there based on my personal experiences from ML.

I looked for the same thread and gave up after awhile. I might have had better luck looking near the release of HH as people were posting that they wanted another and what they wanted it to be.

I agree, in game survey would be the best. At launch or close of client type thing. Needs to be kinda 'in your face' IMO.

HH was and is the best module DDO has ever done. Just very disappointed it turned into a no brainer zerg fest so fast, but I digress...

Currently been playing tabletop ToEE, just hit the second level of the Temple. The place is HUGE! We are talking something like 6 levels, including ground floor. Each level is needed in ToEE for storyline/advancement. I REALLY like the idea of parting it out to do it right - I hope they can. As I said before, I have faith in them with ToEE based off HH. They did HH justice if you don't skip everything and race to the end. They will have their hands full with ToEE as I believe more players have done ToEE then HH in the past.

Me personally, looking forward to and very scared to encounter Zugtomy and Iuz.

[esojiul]

It will be great also include 2 more classes and gnomes.

[Qhualor]

Personally, I think players should be completely excluded from the decision process because they're horrible at designing anything. Player feedback was listened to entirely too much during the bard and pally reboots, and it has created such a mess that it's completely changed the game DDO is within just two updates.

Absolutely horrible.

Player feedback should be listened to, but in the end the devs should make the final neutral decision for the sake of balance. Right now it seems Turbines new design approach by primarily going with player feedback is too messy. Some things are good but there's a lot of bad or OP things happening.

[Cordovan]

I don't quite know if it was made clear or not, but is the lam preview going to contain ToEE? I don't think so, but I hope so? :D

Lamannia will likely include a preview for Temple of Elemental Evil when we are ready to preview Update 25, but Lamannia is currently getting ready for an Update 24 preview.

[Violith]

Lamannia will likely include a preview for Temple of Elemental Evil when we are ready to preview Update 25, but Lamannia is currently getting ready for an Update 24 preview.

Any news on how ToEE will be played out? is it a single quest or multiple ones that access the same instance similiar to tangleroot.

[Graywolf_The_Heathen]

You have chosen... wisely /holygrail. Let me say right now, the more large, epic, and well itemized this is... the better. Do NOT cut any corners. We can wait. Deliver some gold. Deliver it!

Yes, this!

[FranOhmsford]

Ok one run through, elite BB, will not take a 3rd life+ character from 15-20 with just GH, Vale, Orchard and LoD.

Yes it will - I've done it! {Didn't run Litany that life either!}


If you really must know. I start GH at usually 15.2. I then run GH until I hit level 17 and hold off on it. I then run Orchard and Litany until into 18. I then head to the vale run that once. I then run LoD chain once. That usally puts me around 19. I wrap up with whatever I feel like at that point. Usually Amrath, IQ1, few Sane Asylumns, maybe RR.

You're starting GH 2 ranks too early


And no. Missing running quests does not mean my total is off. The concept of once and done is something I sort of adopt. I have said before some quests I like so I repeat them, some quests I do not like so I skip them. But the once and done means running a quest once and moving on until cap. Just because you don't need to run every quest to cap does not mean my total is off.

Erm - Your total was for Once and Done to cap.
And
You stated that there weren't enough Epic Quests in game to do this.

So...Missing Quests actually DOES mean your total is off!


Starting Epic content as soon as you hit 20/ETR is much preferred for CoV and heart seeds. You may not think it's relevant but I disagree. Unless you want to spend a bunch of extra time at cap farming for heart seeds, but that is very counter productive.

Again - Your post stated "not enough XP"
CoVs and Heart Seeds were not part of the equation and bringing them in now is changing the parameters.

Also - I've hit 28 twice over on Lieuk and am back at 25 now {And he's still 1st Life!} - And you know my feelings about repeating quests - He also HASN'T stayed at 28 for more than a couple of quests yet!
But then again - I have other characters at Epic Levels and regularly pass Heart Seeds and Tokens/Frags through the Shared Bank.


Now I know you have multiple characters False: Consolidating your Heart Seeds {CoVs can be crunched down} and Tokens into your Shared Bank will allow you to TR and E-TR the character you're currently working on faster!



Finally - Vale {1 Clearance} yields around 32k minimum {and even solo can be done in 50 minutes to an hour depending on character}, The Battlefield likewise! {Orchard and GH are easy to grab XP in too!}
I'm not saying that people should count ALL Slayer XP in their totals but surely 1 Clearance isn't too much to ask?

[FranOhmsford]

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Even IF they did a poll, someone here would be upset about the poll itself, it's choices, how it was presented/delivered, or even the wording.

Still blown away people are getting upset that we are getting another Tribute Module! We started asking for another one the very day HH launched! Many offered to pay extra cash to get one because they enjoyed it so much and wanted more.

We got what we asked for and people are upset that we got what we asked for, again.

Rather sad....

Pretty certain I haven't seen a single post in this thread complaining about getting ToEE.

On the contrary - Despite the multiple posts about how Xorian is awful and who the heck did the Devs ask? ToEE has been pretty well received!

[FranOhmsford]

I often take level 19 on my characters.

Did I state "nobody"?

Did I even state "nobody but newbies"?

I stated "Highly Unlikely" NOT "Impossible"


I knew there'd be at least one person who'd state for the record that they take Lvl 19 - Well done on being first!


But: Lvl 19 is still seen as a Trap by many - Not by the VAST majority since Epic Levels maybe but still a Majority.


No matter what you say on these forums there'll always be someone to refute it based on how they themselves play - It's a GOOD thing that DDO allows so many different ways to play the game!
My complaint is that the PLAYERS who take the quickest way push that way on to everyone else - Maybe It looks like I'm doing the same here with a slower way BUT think of it as providing a CHOICE!

[Braegan]

Yes it will - I've done it! {Didn't run Litany that life either!}



You're starting GH 2 ranks too early



Erm - Your total was for Once and Done to cap.
And
You stated that there weren't enough Epic Quests in game to do this.

So...Missing Quests actually DOES mean your total is off!



Again - Your post stated "not enough XP"
CoVs and Heart Seeds were not part of the equation and bringing them in now is changing the parameters.

Also - I've hit 28 twice over on Lieuk and am back at 25 now {And he's still 1st Life!} - And you know my feelings about repeating quests - He also HASN'T stayed at 28 for more than a couple of quests yet!
But then again - I have other characters at Epic Levels and regularly pass Heart Seeds and Tokens/Frags through the Shared Bank.


Now I know you have multiple characters False: Consolidating your Heart Seeds {CoVs can be crunched down} and Tokens into your Shared Bank will allow you to TR and E-TR the character you're currently working on faster!



Finally - Vale {1 Clearance} yields around 32k minimum {and even solo can be done in 50 minutes to an hour depending on character}, The Battlefield likewise! {Orchard and GH are easy to grab XP in too!}
I'm not saying that people should count ALL Slayer XP in their totals but surely 1 Clearance isn't too much to ask?

I find that really hard to believe. From my experience a once and done of those chains will not give you enough xp for 15-20. You must be adding in lots of slayers or something.

Maybe I am, maybe not. But, from around 39 TRs across my characters I found a way that works for me. Beauty of DDO, there is more than once way to do things. My way works for me, yours for you, nothing more, nothing less, neither of us is wrong.

You're confusing two things there. I said there was enough heroic quests to once and done and skip some to cap and not enough to do so in epics. That's where my statement of skipping some doesn't matter because I still capped without repeating, in regards to heroic leveling not epic. I provided you a thread with a running tally of an epic progression. I detailed exactly how much xp was gained, when BB applied and when there was even a global xp bonus in effect. I was fairly complete with my post. And it clearly shows there is not enough epic xp from quests to cap. After you ETR and lose all potential for BB a lot of those values would go down.

I am 100% correct in saying there is currently not enough xp from epic quests to go 20-28 once and done. Fact.

I am aware of heart seeds and having other characters to gain them. Even still there have been a few times when I've had to run a few more quests at cap to get the last few I needed. If I ran more high level heroics at the low epic levels I would only be exchanging that with having to run more quests at cap to replace the covs I didn't get by starting right out in epics. Robbing Peter to pay Paul as it were.

It's great you like slayers, a lot of folks do. I do not. I'd rather run more quests than do slayers. Again, that options thing...it's great! That option is not present in epic play however and would be nice if it was. Which I have hope it will be as new content gets released.

[Oxarhamar]

Yes it will - I've done it! {Didn't run Litany that life either!}



You're starting GH 2 ranks too early



Erm - Your total was for Once and Done to cap.
And
You stated that there weren't enough Epic Quests in game to do this.

So...Missing Quests actually DOES mean your total is off!



Again - Your post stated "not enough XP"
CoVs and Heart Seeds were not part of the equation and bringing them in now is changing the parameters.

Also - I've hit 28 twice over on Lieuk and am back at 25 now {And he's still 1st Life!} - And you know my feelings about repeating quests - He also HASN'T stayed at 28 for more than a couple of quests yet!
But then again - I have other characters at Epic Levels and regularly pass Heart Seeds and Tokens/Frags through the Shared Bank.


Now I know you have multiple characters False: Consolidating your Heart Seeds {CoVs can be crunched down} and Tokens into your Shared Bank will allow you to TR and E-TR the character you're currently working on faster!



Finally - Vale {1 Clearance} yields around 32k minimum {and even solo can be done in 50 minutes to an hour depending on character}, The Battlefield likewise! {Orchard and GH are easy to grab XP in too!}
I'm not saying that people should count ALL Slayer XP in their totals but surely 1 Clearance isn't too much to ask?

Bring Heart seeds & CoV into the equation was not changing the parameter only demonstrating that those quests that you list in Heroics are NOT EPIC!

No you can not 1 and done from 15/holding in GH, Orchard, Vale, & LOD. Not without supplementing XP from somewhere else.

Yes one clearance of Vale @50 minutes yielding ~650XP minute is too much to ask and also changing the parameters of your 1 and done statement.

[xslasherz]

Are you guys still planning to raise Lvl cap to 30 this update?

[legendkilleroll]

Yes it will - I've done it! {Didn't run Litany that life either!}

I just hit 20 this week and i know thats not true

[SilkofDrasnia]

Are you guys still planning to raise Lvl cap to 30 this update?

No.

[Uska]

Lamannia will likely include a preview for Temple of Elemental Evil when we are ready to preview Update 25, but Lamannia is currently getting ready for an Update 24 preview.

For once I think should skip previewing content maybe that way it won't be beaten an hour after its released

[the_one_dwarfforged]

For once I think should skip previewing content maybe that way it won't be beaten an hour after its released

lvl 26. it will be beaten an hour after its released no matter what.

[Uska]

lvl 26. it will be beaten an hour after its released no matter what.

If they haven't played it to death on Lamna-land maybe not

[Cetus]

It's only junk to YOU and other like minded individuals. There are plenty of people that like to level and dislike endgame, there are some that like low level content mid level content etc etc.

I highly doubt the masses play "like you do or enjoy all the same things you do" and I think that's some peoples opinions and they are voicing it.

Exactly. Since I'm the one voicing the opinion, it is junk to me. Thank you for your insight.

Interestingly, those folks who like to level have a huge amount of content at their disposal. Endgame players have to constantly operate on the very margins of what is available to them; chiefly as a result of these crappy decisions. Look, we're getting 1 CR30 quest until U25. Its funny how you get surprised that this generates complaint.

"What, you aren't happy with 1 endgame quest! What's wrong with you!".

Just as how you ask me to be cognizant of those people who enjoy mid-level content, you are awfully intolerant of those who are unhappy with the continuous insertion of mid-level stuff at the expense of an expanding endgame.

[nibel]

Look, we're getting 1 CR30 quest until U25.

No sarcasm here. I thought endgamers had at least a few options right now: both Thunderholme raids, Mark of Death, and Precious Cargo/Haunted Halls (for challenge, like elite tor dragons were at cap 20). And a few level 27+ quests on EE for a change of pace (Stormhorns, e3BC, 3Orchard).

Are you considering only MoD as endgame material? Why?

[FranOhmsford]

No sarcasm here. I thought endgamers had at least a few options right now: both Thunderholme raids, Mark of Death, and Precious Cargo/Haunted Halls (for challenge, like elite tor dragons were at cap 20). And a few level 27+ quests on EE for a change of pace (Stormhorns, e3BC, 3Orchard).

Are you considering only MoD as endgame material? Why?

E-Orchard is base Lvl 29 {31 on Elite}
Brothers of the Forge is base Lvl 28 {30 on Elite}
Haunted Halls is base Lvl 28 {30 on Elite}
E-Stormhorns Chain is base Lvl 27 {29 on EE}
A Study in Sable is base Lvl 26 {28 on Elite}

It's not superb but it's not as bad as people make out either!

[Cetus]

No sarcasm here. I thought endgamers had at least a few options right now: both Thunderholme raids, Mark of Death, and Precious Cargo/Haunted Halls (for challenge, like elite tor dragons were at cap 20). And a few level 27+ quests on EE for a change of pace (Stormhorns, e3BC, 3Orchard).

Are you considering only MoD as endgame material? Why?

Stormhorns and Haunted Halls have been the pace for a while. Thunderholme raids are old stuff too now.

3bc is midlevel.

The only fresh endgame we have right now is 4 necro quests and mod.

Now, we just got 1 more quest, whose loot looks crummy right now - whereas the midlevels got 3 quests.

There's just no hope for endgame in DDO. How can people even consider the level cap raise with a starving endgame.

[jalont]

Stormhorns and Haunted Halls have been the pace for a while. Thunderholme raids are old stuff too now.

3bc is midlevel.

The only fresh endgame we have right now is 4 necro quests and mod.

Now, we just got 1 more quest, whose loot looks crummy right now - whereas the midlevels got 3 quests.

There's just no hope for endgame in DDO. How can people even consider the level cap raise with a starving endgame.

I DO wonder why quest level means so much to you. It's not like a level 30 quest or raid is going to actually provide any challenge. I'd be interested in hearing what you think an endgame is going to look like.

[FranOhmsford]

Stormhorns and Haunted Halls have been the pace for a while. Thunderholme raids are old stuff too now.

The Devs have pushed out 8 Epic Levels basically in one go!

They didn't even get 20-25 sorted with enough quests before adding in 26-28!

Give them time!


3bc is midlevel.

No it's not - E-3BC is Base Lvl 25 {27 on EE!}


The only fresh endgame we have right now is 4 necro quests and mod.

The Devs seem to be only able to give us 4-5 quests per update atm - This isn't great ESPECIALLY when there's multiple levels that need boosting.
BUT
Again - Give them time!


Now, we just got 1 more quest, whose loot looks crummy right now - whereas the midlevels got 3 quests.

The Xorian Quests will be base Lvl 26 on Epic {28 on EE!} - Again NOT mid-level by any stretch of the imagination!


There's just no hope for endgame in DDO. How can people even consider the level cap raise with a starving endgame.

This I actually agree with - There's absolutely NO POINT pushing out Lvls 29 and 30 BEFORE we have at least 4 more Updates to fill in Lvls 27-30!

[Oxarhamar]

The Devs have pushed out 8 Epic Levels basically in one go!

They didn't even get 20-25 sorted with enough quests before adding in 26-28!

Give them time!



No it's not - E-3BC is Base Lvl 25 {27 on EE!}



The Devs seem to be only able to give us 4-5 quests per update atm - This isn't great ESPECIALLY when there's multiple levels that need boosting.
BUT
Again - Give them time!



The Xorian Quests will be base Lvl 26 on Epic {28 on EE!} - Again NOT mid-level by any stretch of the imagination!



This I actually agree with - There's absolutely NO POINT pushing out Lvls 29 and 30 BEFORE we have at least 4 more Updates to fill in Lvls 27-30!

EE 3BC is not endgame.

This is the same as saying LVL 18 Herioc quests on Elite lvl 20 were EndGame pre-MOTU when we had actual EPIC Quests that could not be entered until a Charicter was at Cap.

[FranOhmsford]

EE 3BC is not endgame.

This is the same as saying LVL 18 Herioc quests on Elite lvl 20 were EndGame pre-MOTU when we had actual EPIC Quests.

Did I say it was End-Game?

Well actually it sort of is atm BUT it won't be when we actually get Lvl 29-30 come out.


Lvl 18 Heroic Quests WERE End-Game for a while too - Some of them were still End-Game just prior to MoTU {IQ1}.
It took the Devs a while to populate Lvl 20 with Epic Quests and it will take them a while to populate Lvl 30 too!

What I actually SAID was that those quests are NOT NOW {and probably never will be!} considered Mid-Level!



Remember that those quests are Lvl 27 on Elite {Only one level below the current cap!} - They may not be strictly End-game BUT they are most certainly NOT Mid-Level!

[SilkofDrasnia]

Exactly. Since I'm the one voicing the opinion, it is junk to me. Thank you for your insight.

Interestingly, those folks who like to level have a huge amount of content at their disposal. Endgame players have to constantly operate on the very margins of what is available to them; chiefly as a result of these crappy decisions. Look, we're getting 1 CR30 quest until U25. Its funny how you get surprised that this generates complaint.

"What, you aren't happy with 1 endgame quest! What's wrong with you!".

Just as how you ask me to be cognizant of those people who enjoy mid-level content, you are awfully intolerant of those who are unhappy with the continuous insertion of mid-level stuff at the expense of an expanding endgame.

Hogwash, I have no problem with people voicing their opinions, you however seem to have a problem with this if people are not of the same opinion as you. You voice your opinion so often that people like me that do not live here on these forum tend to know what your opinion is even if we do not care to hear it anymore.

Sad thing is that sometimes I agree with you but the way you go on and on like you think you are some kind of celebrity the devs need approval from gets tiresome.

That said you will just have to live with it if we tell you so at times same as we have to put up with your constant diatribe.

Carry on!

Heh Endgame is tr/etr and has been since they killed off raiding with post level 20 stuff and epic destinies. My bet is we will not see much of what I believe you want as "endgame" until they raise the level cap.

[jalont]

EE 3BC is not endgame.

This is the same as saying LVL 18 Herioc quests on Elite lvl 20 were EndGame pre-MOTU when we had actual EPIC Quests that could not be entered until a Charicter was at Cap.

There was clear indicators and differences back then. Do you think endgame now will look the same way? Or do you think it'll just be a quest that's randomly been designated level 30?

[FranOhmsford]

There was clear indicators and differences back then. Do you think endgame now will look the same way? Or do you think it'll just be a quest that's randomly been designated level 30?

Actually IQ1 was still considered End-Game right up till MotU came out!

Amrath was still considered End-Game too!

The Manufactory Quests and MA may be Lvl 19 base but they weren't there for Levelling purposes!


In fact: Any Quest that's at a Base Level higher than the current Elite Level required to reach Cap with BB is almost by definition an End-Game Quest!
So....Prior to MotU EVERY Base Lvl 19 Quest WAS End-Game!
And most Lvl 18 Quests too!

This was a good thing as pre Red-Fens we had 3 Sands Epics, 4 VoN, 4 Carnival and 4 Sentinels + 2 Pre-Raids and 2 Raids!

Hardly a Massive End-Game!

[jalont]

Actually IQ1 was still considered End-Game right up till MotU came out!

Amrath was still considered End-Game too!

The Manufactory Quests and MA may be Lvl 19 base but they weren't there for Levelling purposes!


In fact: Any Quest that's at a Base Level higher than the current Elite Level required to reach Cap with BB is almost by definition an End-Game Quest!
So....Prior to MotU EVERY Base Lvl 19 Quest WAS End-Game!
And most Lvl 18 Quests too!

This was a good thing as pre Red-Fens we had 3 Sands Epics, 4 VoN, 4 Carnival and 4 Sentinels + 2 Pre-Raids and 2 Raids!

Hardly a Massive End-Game!

By who? If it didn't have Epic in front of it, I certainly didn't consider it endgame :P.

[FranOhmsford]

By who? If it didn't have Epic in front of it, I certainly didn't consider it endgame :P.

Well there's your problem.

Predicating something simply on a name!

The Actual True End-Game such as it was Pre-MotU was Shroud, VoD, HoX, ToD, Abbot, E-Chrono, E-Wiz King, E-CoF, E-ADQ and E-VoN!


We do need more High Level Epic Raids BUT E-FoT for example is still End-Game content when run on EE!
When Lvls 29-30 come out FoT and CitW will get relegated to the standard of Pikers Fate at Cap 20 yes....SO....We need Lvl 27-30 Raids to take the place of the likes of Shroud, HoX, VoD and ToD.
We already have Abbot's replacement!

[SilkofDrasnia]

By who? If it didn't have Epic in front of it, I certainly didn't consider it endgame :P.

Endgame to me back when epic was just "epic" was running said epics and raids to get epic gear and the like. It was an endgame that I enjoyed but those days are long past and gone and anyone that thinks they are coming back is sadly mistaken.

Gear is just not difficult or as long a process to get as it used to be not to mention all the changes that make random gear nearly as good. I wont even get into how Epic Destinies make gear so unimportant compared to before, and dare I say it but all the rampant sploits....lets just leave it at that.

[nibel]

EE 3BC is not endgame.

This is the same as saying LVL 18 Herioc quests on Elite lvl 20 were EndGame pre-MOTU when we had actual EPIC Quests that could not be entered until a Charicter was at Cap.

It is not endgame per se, is a endgamer pace-breaker. Just like when the cap was 20 you went to run a few IQ/Refuge quests to relax (because Shavarath was not "relaxing").

[esojiul]

Well there's your problem.

Predicating something simply on a name!

The Actual True End-Game such as it was Pre-MotU was Shroud, VoD, HoX, ToD, Abbot, E-Chrono, E-Wiz King, E-CoF, E-ADQ and E-VoN!


We do need more High Level Epic Raids BUT E-FoT for example is still End-Game content when run on EE!
When Lvls 29-30 come out FoT and CitW will get relegated to the standard of Pikers Fate at Cap 20 yes....SO....We need Lvl 27-30 Raids to take the place of the likes of Shroud, HoX, VoD and ToD.
We already have Abbot's replacement!


The solution is a Mythic Level x all epic quest less 26 on EE. Also be able to upgrade Epic item to Mythic Items. Only one level for Mythic quest are over 30

[Uska]

City of Doors would be the bestamest expansion ever. But man that would cost something huge to get made.

By lore you shouldn't be able to use the city of doors to access eberron and their lame way of connecting it to FR shouldn't have happened either.

[FranOhmsford]

The solution is a Mythic Level x all epic quest less 26 on EE. Also be able to upgrade Epic item to Mythic Items. Only one level for Mythic quest are over 30

I've crusaded for a Mythic Level myself BUT I don't think it should be simply tacked on to every Epic Quest out there.

Some don't even FEEL Epic!

On the other hand - There's plenty of HEROIC Quests and Raids in-game that could get a "Mythic" treatment {Base Lvl 35 - Can't enter unless you're Lvl 30!}:

Misery's Peak
Redwillow's Ruins
Gwylan's Stand
Stormcleave Outpost
Threnal
Hiding in Plain Sight + Restless Isles + Twilight Forge
Invaders
Relic of a Sovereign Past
Made to Order
Mired in Kobolds
The Enemy Within
Xorian Cypher + Dreams of Insanity
Acid Wit
In the Demon's Den
Tempest Spine
Reaver's Refuge
Dreaming Dark
Shavarath

And I'm sure...Many Many More!

[nibel]

I've crusaded for a Mythic Level myself BUT I don't think it should be simply tacked on to every Epic Quest out there.

Some don't even FEEL Epic!

I would even say that MOST current epic quests do not feel epic enough. I consider my "baseline epicness" to be Shavarath, since it involves many tropes of high-level D&D: Planar travel, powerful outsiders, vast armies, alien scenery, etc...

IMO, only the following epic quests are really "epic":

-Vault of Night (the raid, not the series)
-Plane of Night (VoN 6)
-Chains of Flame
-Zawabi's Revenge (DQ1 is not epic enough)
-Devil Assault
-Into the Deep (mostly because of the pit demon, otherwise no)
-Chronoscope (Time Travel)
-Demonweb series, including CitW (Lolth fight is underwhelming, but the quest itself is epic enough)
-What Goes Up (mostly from storyline and the kickass ending scene than the quest itself)
-Temple of the Deathwyrm (The double dragon raid not so much)
-Mark of Death

Everything else has a better place in heroics.

[MalHavoc01]

the release of a Dungeon based on the unforgettable, and amazing Temple of Elemental Evil! tbd in Update 25 at its soonest... this is significant.

As a longtime lurker on the forums, a seriously longtime player of D&D in all its incarnations since late 1977, and of particular interest was the introduction of the town and ruins that intro'd the Temple of Elemental Evil (ToEE) to me and my fellow players through low level to high level retirement bliss (if not early retirement PC RIP!).

This is simply astounding news and I do hope the environs of the Town, its surroundings, and the stumbling entry to the ToEE proper, as well as its higher level challenges, proves to be a satisfactory entry into the DDO edition of gaming history.

Oh! And thank you. Such news is welcome and, if I can say so humbly, quite Overdue! ;-)
Cheers!
-- So many Monsters, and not enough time! (or, "...not enough healing droughts to go around!" as the case may be!)
-- Have at em boyos and gallant ladies!

[Oxarhamar]

Did I say it was End-Game?

Well actually it sort of is atm BUT it won't be when we actually get Lvl 29-30 come out.


Lvl 18 Heroic Quests WERE End-Game for a while too - Some of them were still End-Game just prior to MoTU {IQ1}.
It took the Devs a while to populate Lvl 20 with Epic Quests and it will take them a while to populate Lvl 30 too!

What I actually SAID was that those quests are NOT NOW {and probably never will be!} considered Mid-Level!



Remember that those quests are Lvl 27 on Elite {Only one level below the current cap!} - They may not be strictly End-game BUT they are most certainly NOT Mid-Level!


Those quests are not END GAME

They are MID LEVEL EPICS

The LVL 18 heroics were never END GAME (certainly not IQ1) any Herioc quests Raids run at cap were to farm items mostly for Tomes or TR goodies. If you said TOD I might have given you a slide but, it still was not EPIC the items were LVL 18 TR gear.

[dx8976]

Also: Why yet another Lvl 18 Pack?
We already have more than enough Lvl 17-19 content that doesn't get run!

Even a Legend can hit 20 with ease off Gianthold and Vale these days {Maybe taking in IQ but even that's not seeing the multiple daily LFMs it used to!}.
Once at 20 no-one wants to run Lvl 17-19 quests on Elite as they give less than HALF the XP of an Epic Normal VoN 3/4, Spies or Wiz King!

Another Lvl 16 quest isn't needed either - Lvl 10-12 is where we need new quests!



You're shooting yourselves in the feet by making every new pack both Heroic and Epic with High Level Heroic Versions.

Why would anyone run EE when they can get the Favour from HE? {This is also a problem with low level Heroic versions of Epic Quests but at least they don't come so close together and you might get a few people running both Heroic and Epic versions!}.

What's the point of running HE after that first Favour run when you can get 3 x or more the XP from Epic Normal {which we can now enter at Lvl 20!}.
What's the point of running HN or HH at all?
At least with a low level quest you've got the Newbies who might make use of the HH or HN difficulties.


Finally: You're looking at this Heroic/Epic Dual-Pack system the wrong way round - You're making Epic versions first and reducing for High Level Heroic versions.
This means that NONE of the Heroic quests added since Beyond the Rift has felt {lore and role-play wise} like a High Level Quest!
NOT ONE!

Eveningstar, The High Road, Wheloon, The Stormhorns - Every single one of these could easily have been placed between Lvl 7 and Lvl 12!

As for your Epic only Quests:
Study in Sable - Great Quest though it is could easily have been placed at Lvl 9 {Same as Shadow Crypt!}.
Schindylrynn - Lvl 10-12
The Demonweb - Lvl 17-19 {This is the closest but even then the quests are so short that it doesn't quite work.}

These don't FEEL Epic!

I haven't yet run Brothers of the Forge.


And for E-GH, E-3BC and E-Orchard:

E-GH - Standard upgrade for the quests {pity about Tor} and a Raid that was almost universally acclaimed - The Epic Explorer Zone though is terrible!
E-3BC was done pretty well {though I'm not enamoured with the Airships}
E-Orchard is a Mess!


Yep, 16-19 is oversatured. Put more spice earlier in the road.



I have been talking since MotU was released that almost every quest in FR can be 20 levels lower and still fit perfectly within their lore (with the exception of Demonweb) and equivalent DDO quests. King's Forest chain? Equivalent to Khortos. Schildylryn chain? equivalent to STK. Druid's Deep? only animals and plant creatures as opponents. Easy level 6-ish. High Road? Sharn Syndicate equivalent. Heck, Vault of Night (a level TEN raid) feels more "epic" that both Thunderholme raids.

But we all know why those quests are not on level 10-15 range. It is because of Iconics.

Agreed.
Very difficult to keep suspension of disbelief when we can beat a dragon, become much stronger, and then be destroyed by rats...
I don't know how difficult it would be to move quests around, but putting them in their appropriate levels like suggested by the others would go a long way in improving game immersion.
Epics should feel epic. Giving a trash mob inflated hps is not epic.

[Oxarhamar]

There was clear indicators and differences back then. Do you think endgame now will look the same way? Or do you think it'll just be a quest that's randomly been designated level 30?

I do hope there is a clearly separated END GAME when Cap hits 30 something that can only be done at cap.

[Cetus]

Hogwash, I have no problem with people voicing their opinions, you however seem to have a problem with this if people are not of the same opinion as you. You voice your opinion so often that people like me that do not live here on these forum tend to know what your opinion is even if we do not care to hear it anymore.

Sad thing is that sometimes I agree with you but the way you go on and on like you think you are some kind of celebrity the devs need approval from gets tiresome.

That said you will just have to live with it if we tell you so at times same as we have to put up with your constant diatribe.

Carry on!

Heh Endgame is tr/etr and has been since they killed off raiding with post level 20 stuff and epic destinies. My bet is we will not see much of what I believe you want as "endgame" until they raise the level cap.

Ever heard of the block feature? Otherwise, you enjoy or are at most indifferent about my feedback.

[amylee4000]

Well done Turbine, with this, you remove all my fears about the end of license of D&D for 2015. and the end of DDO. Really excited... Haunted Hall of Evenistar was the correct way in my opinión, bringing old modules to old roleplayers is the best way to keep them. :)
A hint: A remember in my early days of D&D, with Tharsys in the Greyhawk setting, with the party and defeat Zuggtmoy, we reach the Free city of Greyahawk, we take a expedition to the Ruins of the Ruins of the Castle Greyhawk,... inside them, in the deep of the castle I remember, we found a magic mirror (some portal) who leads to the Forgotten Realms.
Cannot tell right now, where exactly the área in the FR. Greyhawk cannon: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/index.php
So that is: (Greyhawk: Ruins of the castle Greyhawk- leading to FR. FR:Eveningstar-Nearest cavern lead to the Spinner Prision who lead to Stormreach-Eberron. All the three worlds connected.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Ever heard of the block feature? Otherwise, you enjoy or are at most indifferent about my feedback.

Thing is when I feel it is necessary to voice my opinion to bring a counter point to your unending input, so the devs do not forget your not the only one playing this game, I wouldn't be able to if you were blocked, please feel free to follow your own advice though.

[Enderoc]

Carrion Crawlers that carry undead plagues with rot monsters (ghoulish rust monsters that decay flesh) that spit green slime which can sicken....Kobolds behind siege engine traps like giant mechanical crossbows in reclaiming a fortress stronghold. Underwater adventures with things like Mermen and Eyes of the Deep in underwater submerged tunnels. Arcane artificer as an enhancement tree or even a caster class that can pump energy into energy cells that can be freely moved or placed in augment slots and charged accordingly (maybe instead allow them to be crafted in devices and then infused with arcane powers).

I like the synergy boss quests...a Giant Medusa that had a stone elemental beholder as her Guardian familiar set before her throne set in an arena with spectators all turned to stone would be pretty epic. Just brainstorming here while waiting for time to pass.

[Cetus]

Thing is when I feel it is necessary to voice my opinion to bring a counter point to your unending input, so the devs do not forget your not the only one playing this game, I wouldn't be able to if you were blocked, please feel free to follow your own advice though.

I'm still not sure what it is what were disagreeing on here...

You DONT want level 30+ content?

[SilkofDrasnia]

I'm still not sure what it is what were disagreeing on here...

You DONT want level 30+ content?

No I don't mind so much if they add such content, my point was even though I do not mind and enjoy endgame I also enjoy lower level content and do not think it is junk. New content is new content and is good for the game regardless of what level it is, the only thing that changes is whether it is something we personally want or not.

My point is I know other endgame players like myself that like mid/low level content and that you do not speak for all of us, we are not all so gung ho for new high level content until Turbine gets done with other more pressing things like finishing the class pass and maybe even raising the cap to 30.

There has been entirely too much change in a short amount of time both in mechanics and gear, I think they should let some of the dust settle and then when they are done stirring it up they can then work on endgame stuff and have it done properly rather than half arsing it because other changes are not done implemented yet.

Some people play endgame get the loot, get bored leave and then complain/demand new content while others just find other content to enjoy when tired of the same endgame like etr/tr etc.

There is no rush for any of this, the rushing is what makes you bored in the first place, the same way that people that scream for nerfs because of one or two maybe OP builds for the sake of challenge yet they are running on triple completionist with all ideal endgame gear from last months new content on the new fotm build and sucking down store pots like no there was no tomorrow.

[Cetus]

No I don't mind so much if they add such content, my point was even though I do not mind and enjoy endgame I also enjoy lower level content and do not think it is junk. New content is new content and is good for the game regardless of what level it is, the only thing that changes is whether it is something we personally want or not.

My point is I know other endgame players like myself that like mid/low level content and that you do not speak for all of us, we are not all so gung ho for new high level content until Turbine gets done with other more pressing things like finishing the class pass and maybe even raising the cap to 30.

There has been entirely too much change in a short amount of time both in mechanics and gear, I think they should let some of the dust settle and then when they are done stirring it up they can then work on endgame stuff and have it done properly rather than half arsing it because other changes are not done implemented yet.

Some people play endgame get the loot, get bored leave and then complain/demand new content while other just find other content to enjoy when tired of the same endgame like etr/tr etc.

There is no rush for any of this, the rushing is what makes you bored in the first place, the same way that people that scream for nerfs because of one or two maybe OP builds for the sake of challenge yet they are running on triple completionist with all ideal endgame gear from last months new content on the new fotm build and sucking down store pots like no there was no tomorrow.

How many non-endgame players, who are otherwise content with mid-level packs such as yourself, enjoyed the epic treatment of orchard?

Did you enjoy it?

[SilkofDrasnia]

How many non-endgame players, who are otherwise content with mid-level packs such as yourself, enjoyed the epic treatment of orchard?

Did you enjoy it?

Think maybe you missed the point I am not a non endgame player, I am a endgame player that likes to play ALL of the game not just a small portion of it and guess what? I enjoy all of the various leveled content at some point or other depending on what phase/mood of my playing I am on.

Anyways I think I have gone OT far enough and have no wish to derail this thread further.

[dredre9987]

Two wishes please implement them somehow.

1.Fragarach, Scather

2. Elmo

[MangLord]

For me, it feels like all the latest updates have been giving more attention to unappreciated/disliked quests in an effort to get people playing them. I thought 3Barrel was a big success, because the dungeons were familiar, but tweaked a bit and new things added to give them a slightly different experience from the heroic versions. Personally, I'm not a fan of epic Orchard. A couple of the quests are highly annoying, namely Inferno and Fleshmakers (who likes air elementals? they're only slightly behind FR shadows for sheer annoyance factor), and the named item droprate is hideous. Remember that most longtime players have farmed the pants off these quests for sigil pieces long before we had to farm them again for new junk.

The reason I mention annoying monsters is because the Madness quests, while some may like them, were extra heavy on beholders, and as far as debuffing, level draining annoyance goes, they top the list of enemies I'd rather avoid. Thus, I tend to avoid all the Madness quests. All the chains were pretty heavy on requiring DR breaking weapons, which was also somewhat irritating, but the beholders made me want to scream sometimes. If you can manage to avoid the heavy handed use of beholders and the subsequent need for multiple pale lavender ioun stones just so you don't have to rebuff yourself every 2 seconds, then you might have something that I'd like to play. I've always hated those quests for that fact alone. I can't say I'm super thrilled about more of those. Please don't make us build a bed airship or other similarly goofy tasks the start to feel like drudgery after the third wave of beds all succumb to another endless wave of enemies.

I'm not very familiar with the original Temple of Elemental Evil module, but I was very happy with Haunted Halls. Personally, I still love to do EN runs with all the optionals for something easier and super-fun at the same time. I really look forward to another huge, immersive quest in the future. Breaking the regular and extended contents into two different level ranges would be really nice. Heroic could use some more content at level 9-11. Possibly doing a heroic CR9 regular and heroic CR11 extended, with an epic CR23 regular and CR26 extended? There is a lot of lower level epic content, but we could really use something new to spruce up that level range for ETRing.

I'm incredibly sick of Shadar-kai chain whipping stuff and the Netherese storyline. I think most players will be fine if we never hear about it again. Maybe it's just because Wheloon and Stormhorns pay decent XP, so I tend to run those a lot. I hate shadar-kai assassins and shadows so much now. I feel like the Howler quill damage was Turbine's subtle way of driving us crazy over a long period of time.

Also, can we please fight more living enemies at end game that aren't spellcasters or don't come in the form of gigantic, lag-inducing mobs? If I'm not in wheloon or stormhorns, I feel like all I'm ever fighting are undead, more undead, constructs, a couple elementals and the odd enemy that we can score critical hits on who is usually a spellcaster. Personally, I just want a change of pace. Rust monsters, oozes (yes, they're crit resistant but still classic and interesting) or even a new enemy like an Otyugh or Basilisk? Both would present interesting challenges. Could you imagine a Basilisk boss fight where Stone to Flesh becomes a must have spell? It would be nice to possibly rework an older enemy to challenge epic players, rather than throwing more undead at us over and over.

Edit: That came off really complaint heavy, but I'm just not looking forward to beholders or Xoriat at all. I was imagining some new enemies and a fresh setting in Anauroch rather than more of the strange, goofy and generally annoying Madness chain.

[Qhualor]

i read the cliff notes version of Temple of Elemental Evil and there was mention of gnomes having a big role.

discuss

[jalont]

For me, it feels like all the latest updates have been giving more attention to unappreciated/disliked quests in an effort to get people playing them. I thought 3Barrel was a big success, because the dungeons were familiar, but tweaked a bit and new things added to give them a slightly different experience from the heroic versions. Personally, I'm not a fan of epic Orchard. A couple of the quests are highly annoying, namely Inferno and Fleshmakers (who likes air elementals? they're only slightly behind FR shadows for sheer annoyance factor), and the named item droprate is hideous. Remember that most longtime players have farmed the pants off these quests for sigil pieces long before we had to farm them again for new junk.

The reason I mention annoying monsters is because the Madness quests, while some may like them, were extra heavy on beholders, and as far as debuffing, level draining annoyance goes, they top the list of enemies I'd rather avoid. Thus, I tend to avoid all the Madness quests. All the chains were pretty heavy on requiring DR breaking weapons, which was also somewhat irritating, but the beholders made me want to scream sometimes. If you can manage to avoid the heavy handed use of beholders and the subsequent need for multiple pale lavender ioun stones just so you don't have to rebuff yourself every 2 seconds, then you might have something that I'd like to play. I've always hated those quests for that fact alone. I can't say I'm super thrilled about more of those. Please don't make us build a bed airship or other similarly goofy tasks the start to feel like drudgery after the third wave of beds all succumb to another endless wave of enemies.

I'm not very familiar with the original Temple of Elemental Evil module, but I was very happy with Haunted Halls. Personally, I still love to do EN runs with all the optionals for something easier and super-fun at the same time. I really look forward to another huge, immersive quest in the future. Breaking the regular and extended contents into two different level ranges would be really nice. Heroic could use some more content at level 9-11. Possibly doing a heroic CR9 regular and heroic CR11 extended, with an epic CR23 regular and CR26 extended?

I'm incredibly sick of Shadar-kai chain whipping stuff and the Netherese storyline. I think most players will be fine if we never hear about it again. Maybe it's just because Wheloon and Stormhorns pay decent XP, so I tend to run those a lot. I hate shadar-kai assassins and shadows so much now.

Also, can we please fight more living enemies at end game that aren't spellcasters? If I'm not in wheloon or stormhorns, I feel like all I'm ever fighting are undead, more undead, constructs, a couple elementals and the odd enemy that we can score critical hits on who is usually a spellcaster. Personally, I just want a change of pace. Rust monsters, oozes (yes, they're crit resistant but still classic and interesting) or even a new enemy like an Otyugh or Basilisk? Both would present interesting challenges. Could you imagine a Basilisk boss fight where Stone to Flesh becomes a must have spell? It would be nice to possibly rework an older enemy to challenge epic players, rather than throwing more undead at us over and over.

You just mentioned all the reasons why casuals will not like the update, but those of us that like challenge need to have a bone thrown to us after the last few updates that transformed the game and completely geared it to casual players. Yes, if done right, the next update might have an inkling of challenge. Some of us are happy about that.

[Cetus]

Think maybe you missed the point I am not a non endgame player, I am a endgame player that likes to play ALL of the game not just a small portion of it and guess what? I enjoy all of the various leveled content at some point or other depending on what phase/mood of my playing I am on.

Anyways I think I have gone OT far enough and have no wish to derail this thread further.

Even though you evaded my question, saying that you enjoy **ALL** (you said it) the content means that it is possible for turbine to synthesize content that we can BOTH enjoy.

Since, CR30+ stuff fits under your **ALL** umbrella, we can both be happy.

What's the problem here?

[SilkofDrasnia]

Even though you evaded my question, saying that you enjoy **ALL** (you said it) the content means that it is possible for turbine to synthesize content that we can BOTH enjoy.

Since, CR30+ stuff fits under your **ALL** umbrella, we can both be happy.

What's the problem here?


The only problem is you not liking that I do not agree with you. IF they make lvl 30 content I will enjoy it if they do not I will still enjoy the lower level content. The problem is you would like to twist that to mean I should not like them to add lower level content simply to make you happy because insert xyz excuse to justify your preference.

My original post where I quoted you was just me backing some others in this thread by saying just cause you don't like lower level content it is not "junk" but alas because you, an endgame player, decided endgame players should want and prefer lvl 30 quest over lower level one OH WELL now we have a problem and you will spend xx+ post to explain to me why my "opinion" and preferences are wrong because hey! Cetus says so!

Comes down to this you want to pew pew pew about endgame constantly go for it that is fine and is your opinion but don't get all weepy or hurt cause some others like myself then quote you and claim we as endgame players do not give a fig if there is no lvl 30 content in the next batch of new stuff and pew pew pew about it.

I will say it again I love endgame but I do not give a rats behind if there is no lvl 30 content in this new update, and guess what?

I do not care if that makes you sad.

Comes down to this, new content doesn't have to be aimed at you specifically or even myself no matter how inflated our opinions of ourselves may be. If that makes you so upset and unhappy well.... don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.

I am not a fan of the xoriat stuff that is coming but guess what? That is just tough luck for me cause I am sure someone out there will enjoy it. I mentioned I was not a fan of it then moved on instead of weeping constantly about it.

Now run along and go pewpewpew someone else for awhile or go pewpewpew some more about endgame, I am sure there are a few people that do not know your opinion about it yet.

[IronClan]

No it's not - E-3BC is Base Lvl 25 {27 on EE!}

So besides a gimmick portable temporary rez shrine what loot in e3BC do you consider end game? +8 stat items? What challenges are there for geared level 28s? I guess if you squint at it, the Iron Mitts are "end game" simply by virtue of being possibly better than PDK Gauntlets for your source of 30 hamp... otherwise they are extremely meh... There's a reason why there are more eGH LFM's than e3BC a couple reasons, but one of them is that they made the strategic mistake of placing an unpopular pack into mid epic levels where no one really gives a squat about it (still).

End game is very thin, there's very little to do... end game is where everyone who still likes to play DDO but has done their fill of the usual TR'ing stuff ends up. People who claim end game isn't important are people who haven't yet reached the point where they haven't got much to do but still enjoy running with friends and playing the game, but need some excuses to keep playing.

Why Progress and TR and ETR, to improve your character if there's nothing to do with an improved character? You all will ask this question one day... and if you still enjoy DDO your answer will be "bring on end game" if you're bored of DDO you'll find something else to do, and wont care a lick that DDO has the fatest "mid epic game".

An outragous mid epic "scene" is not what this game needs and it's continually amazing just how little the Developers seem to understand that... They can look at metrics for e3BC and somehow not come to the conclussion that it was a big fat waste of development time... So they're going to make the same mistake again.

The people taking a short term view of this (saying mid epic content is wonderful) are just shooting themselves and end game focused players in the foot. You'll be here eventually and the derth of end game content that you helped foster will be your problem as well! If you WONT be here eventually then you obviously don't enjoy DDO very much and your opinion is not important.

I just specced a toon that NEEDS Mythic Emerald Gaze, I built him specifically to need that item... (specifically I chose Know the Angels instead of Divine Might so I could get use out of +4 Insightful STR, as that toons ideal gear setup, and hey it's nice that this also left me with a luxurious number of skill points on a Dwarven Paladin and a better number in INT than I could have gotten in CHA due to Dwarf starting with 6 CHA)

Why did I do that? Same reason I made a eSoS build that (see sig) is after those pieces... so I'd have an excuse to keep playing a game I enjoy. basically I've reached the point where I'm inventing my own hamster wheels, rather than moving on. Considering how freely I spend on DDO it's definitely in Turbines best interest to give me more things like eSoS and Mythic items to seek after... They wont do it with +8 stat items and mid epic quest challenges that I will walk all over on my 28th level characters.

[Cetus]

The only problem is you not liking that I do not agree with you. IF they make lvl 30 content I will enjoy it if they do not I will still enjoy the lower level content. The problem is you would like to twist that to mean I should not like them to add lower level content simply to make you happy because insert xyz excuse to justify your preference.

My original post where I quoted you was just me backing some others in this thread by saying just cause you don't like lower level content it is not "junk" but alas because you, an endgame player, decided endgame players should want and prefer lvl 30 quest over lower level one OH WELL now we have a problem and you will spend xx+ post to explain to me why my "opinion" and preferences are wrong because hey! Cetus says so!

Comes down to this you want to pew pew pew about endgame constantly go for it that is fine and is your opinion but don't get all weepy or hurt cause some others like myself then quote you and claim we as endgame players do not give a fig if there is no lvl 30 content in the next batch of new stuff and pew pew pew about it.

I will say it again I love endgame but I do not give a rats behind if there is no lvl 30 content in this new update, and guess what?

I do not care if that makes you sad.

Comes down to this, new content doesn't have to be aimed at you specifically or even myself no matter how inflated our opinions of ourselves may be. If that makes you so upset and unhappy well.... don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.

I am not a fan of the xoriat stuff that is coming but guess what? That is just tough luck for me cause I am sure someone out there will enjoy it. I mentioned I was not a fan of it then moved on instead of weeping constantly about it.

Now run along and go pewpewpew someone else for awhile or go pewpewpew some more about endgame, I am sure there are a few people that do not know your opinion about it yet.

You are really reading into my posts. Yes, they are junk. But, guess what? That is a subjective statement because the only person I ever speak for is --myself--.

I don't know where you get the impression that I'm speaking for you, but I'm disabusing you of that right now. I'm speaking for me. And, in our exchange, we have concluded that CR30+ content would make both of us happy, instead of just YOU with CR26 stuff.

[Ayseifn]

Sev, I am very surprised at the decision to launch more low level (CR26) content. I could have sworn that you guys were done with that phase, and would from now on churn out endgame stuff.

What happened? This is going backwards.

Agreed, if there's a level 30 version of this ready to release when the cap goes up that's cool but if it's just another group of quests to offer options for TRs that sucks. The loot is pretty ordinary too, mostly just the same mutations shuffled around to help people outfit non end game toons with non end game gear.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

End game is very thin, there's very little to do...

I certainly agree with this. Clearly they need to add some meat to end game... and it appears they are doing this. Just the mere mention of the words "Temple of Elemental Evil" will stir emotion and attention. Its a HUGE score and a wonderful sign Turbine has plenty of future left... All the doom speculation, which understandably occurred after 3 huge layoffs in just over a year, is dead as a doornail now (with the sole exception that the reality is WB can pull the plug at any time, an unsettling but unavoidable reality in the Corporate world).

With all the attention those four words generate, this is Turbine's time to light up the gaming world. "Why build a Chevy when we can build a Rolls" should be the attitude from the devs... and for once in a very long time, I saw a glimpse of that kind of excitement in the announcement... even though it was hiding in the post promoting U24, which is fine for now.

If ToEE can fill out/solidify the end game scene for 3-6 months, and add excitement at 7-11 heroic, that would be a tremendous benefit to much of the playerbase and would captivate new blood in the gaming world. Turbine needs to get out on the PR bus soon, and generate excitement.

We need challenge. But its not just for end gamers or long time players, because that demographic is getting smaller and smaller. We need it for the guild scene in general. Ive said it for many years... guilds are the life-blood, the foundation of DDO. When guild scene crumbles, down will go DDO. Guilds, and not just "Top 10" guilds, need challenge. This is why I say dont only look at end game, and also why I think its brilliant that Turbine just might be filling two voids with ToEE...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

One last thing about "end game"... Turbine has done a good job making end game reachable and enjoyable for many that traditionally would not reach, none the less excel at. Endgame is not exclusive anymore to "that type of player". And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact that's great for the game because it gives many more people something to shoot/strive for. But now that accessibility into the end game is achievable... now there needs to be more meat on the bone. I'm hoping that ToEE gives the replay value that the Shroud provided to the playerbase all these years. I would also like to see a new notch above elite introduced at some point, that could challenge long time gamers.

[EllisDee37]

To clarify, right now, what is endgame? We've got three endgame raids (MoD and both thunderholme), right? Are there any endgame quests? Necro4, maybe, but is there any reason to run them on EE? If not, is that really endgame? Is WGU considered endgame?

[Uska]

i read the cliff notes version of Temple of Elemental Evil and there was mention of gnomes having a big role.

discuss

Now its been many years since I played the original module I don't really recall gnomes having any role in the module much less a big role

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

To clarify, right now, what is endgame? We've got three endgame raids (MoD and both thunderholme), right? Are there any endgame quests? Necro4, maybe, but is there any reason to run them on EE? If not, is that really endgame? Is WGU considered endgame?

Yep exactly my point. Its a moving target. This game will NEVER have an end game like Cetus wants. Its just isnt that kind of game and never will be. So...

To me, and this is obviously very unscientific, end game is the top 10% of the content, give a take a few points in either direction. It includes all the toughest content in the game. Most importantly its always been a moving target.

The real test or challenge for Turbine now is that if 30 is the max level we'll see, then pressure will be on them to provide a stationary end game, which will be hard for Turbine to achieve... because you have players like Cetus who will always be crying for more challenge when "end game" is wysiwyg.

End game needs to encompass more than just 1 or 2 quests or raids. And this is where I think the large majority of us agree. To the OPs topic at hand, I'm hoping ToEE, in whatever shape or form it takes, is very very re-playable.

[Uska]

Even though you evaded my question, saying that you enjoy **ALL** (you said it) the content means that it is possible for turbine to synthesize content that we can BOTH enjoy.

Since, CR30+ stuff fits under your **ALL** umbrella, we can both be happy.

What's the problem here?

UMm that not all players like epic at all I avoid it like a plague which to me epic level is to both pnp and ddo. I like new content to play in my favored range and while I don't like epic play I don't gnash my teeth and say it shouldn't be made so I ask you to do the same for content in my favored range.

[EllisDee37]

This game will NEVER have an end game like Cetus wants. Its just isnt that kind of game and never will be. So... I disagree. There was a clearly defined and robust endgame pre-MotU, I think, with tons of epic quests, several epic raids, and a bunch of high level heroic raids that still offered some challenge and some desirable loot for endgame players.

[Enderoc]

I would like to see a 12 man raid like the airship battle in three barrel cove where only the players arm the artillery and repair the ship as a precursor to going into the raid...maybe even taking the airship through the demonweb...which would unlock airship access for those who complete it inside evening star. Maybe a quest chain where the rift between worlds brings conflict and alliances with the monsters found in both worlds as it starts penetrating both.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I disagree. There was a clearly defined and robust endgame pre-MotU, I think, with tons of epic quests, several epic raids, and a bunch of high level heroic raids that still offered some challenge and some desirable loot for endgame players.

Those raids and epic quests still exist. I dont remember a time when I saw the majority of "end gamers" state the above... It was always, TOO EASY, or OK DID THAT now what... either way, at the end of the day, there is no way Turbine will be able to churn out enough challenging new content for a player like Cetus.

So, Id like to see an end game where the majority of those that reach levels 27-30 feel a challenge. That said, if we were to have another difficulty setting above EE, then maybe we can start talking about providing challenge to long time players and even Cetus. I would be all for that.

[Ayseifn]

Those raids and epic quests still exist. I dont remember a time when I saw the majority of "end gamers" state the above... It was always, TOO EASY, or OK DID THAT now what... either way, at the end of the day, there is no way Turbine will be able to churn out enough challenging new content for a player like Cetus.

So, Id like to see an end game where the majority of those that reach levels 27-30 feel a challenge. That said, if we were to have another difficulty setting above EE, then maybe we can start talking about providing challenge to long time players and even Cetus. I would be all for that.

The desirable loot is the part you're missing not just the challenge. Nothing here looks like something I'll want to be wearing once the cap goes up so no point in farming. Better off just TRing over and over until I get bored and quit, heck I just took 3 months off because I hate TRing and would prefer to chill at cap farming items.

[IronClan]

Those raids and epic quests still exist. I dont remember a time when I saw the majority of "end gamers" state the above... It was always, TOO EASY, or OK DID THAT now what... either way, at the end of the day, there is no way Turbine will be able to churn out enough challenging new content for a player like Cetus.

Just because you can always find someone complaining (about everything) doesn't mean there wasn't a solid end game there, their own Ex developer stated that they made a mistake by outstripping old end game without a new end game in place.

You are just arbitrarily saying "it can't be like that again" when it can be, if they were willing to. Just like you're saying arbitrarily there's no way they can churn out enough content... They can if they're willing.

For starters they could do the "old raid revamp" people have been suggesting over and over for the last couple years.

Update all the old dead raids without all this "inventing new stories and redoing textures, NPC's/dialogs, and re-inventing the loot to be different" thing they love to do. Make +5 items have a level 30 +10 version, with 3[W], and other end game relevant affix values... give the mobs X times more HP level 30 appropriate offensive and defensive values, give traps relevant damage values and saves, and be done with it. Instead they spend time making Air ships in 3BC that no one sees because barely anyone runs that content, because it's irrelevant to people who have had their fill of ETR'ing which judging by how empty the game is becoming, are most people. Instead of adding Lady Vol in and getting the girl who voiced Anna to do a terribad Lady Vol (teenie bopper Vol?), just update the numbers of the old raid. Instead of working on scripts and AI and story and making Abbot into an easy arena beat down, just tweak the original to have relevant values.

VOD
HOX
LOB
MA
Titan

All dead raids, unused content that could be polished up without new stories new texturing, new AI or scripting, or crafting systems. and polish up some of the lack luster VON5-6 and CitW loot and boost the mob's a tad in those two while they're at it.

Then if desired leave Shroud and TOD for later for a full story "reboot" like they did Orchard.

To say it's impossible is massively wrong, in fact it could be accomplished by an intern with a set of rules on post it notes to follow as he batch edits the item and mob data bases of each raid.

"make CR19 800hp mobs into CR40 8000hps"
"make new version of +5 ML20 items into +10 ML30 items"
"seeker 6 becomes seeker 12 on new version"
"Strength +6 becomes +11"
"flaming 1d6 becomes Flaming blast 3d6 (or whatever)"

The problem is not that polishing loot and Mob CR's takes forever, the problem is that making new voice overs, new stories, re-texturing, making new AI for new fights, takes almost as long as just making new content... SO they might as well just do that. Their pride and their sense of "we can do it better than the previous Devs" hubris keeps them from doing the most SIMPLE basic revamp that would give us a huge end game. Imagine having 9 raids to do instead of 3?

Fly me to boston give me access to the data base files and I'd polish 2 old raids per week, while sleeping under Maj Mal's old desk, and surviving on mountain dew and Pumpkin spice iced coffees.

[MangLord]

You just mentioned all the reasons why casuals will not like the update, but those of us that like challenge need to have a bone thrown to us after the last few updates that transformed the game and completely geared it to casual players. Yes, if done right, the next update might have an inkling of challenge. Some of us are happy about that.

I'm definitely not casual, just annoyed by the choices of enemies designed to make our gaming seem "harder" when it's really just "more irritating".

In reality, a room full of beholders is not more challenging, (fully expecting a wave after wave quest of Taken with jaunty caps peppered with beholders for "challenge" for the fashion show quest in the update. #superyawn) it just becomes an exercise in who has farmed more pale lavender ioun stones. A casual who hasn't farmed any has no chance, while a pro that might have 2-3 on tap will just cheese/yawn/whine the day after the update. EE (in general) is largely a study in who has good DPS with enough twitch skills to jump out of a surrounding mob and pop a quickened self heal when they see their red bar drop below half. I'd much rather face a clever puzzle (without crutching on copy pasting the wiki solution into my bio) than relying on gobs of farmed gear and buffs to get me through every quest on autopilot. Buff, punch, punch, heal, punch is pretty much lowest common denominator gaming.

I love challenge, but if the challenge is destroyed by farming gear to beat it, then it really wasn't a challenge at all. A real challenge that couldn't be beaten by wiki would be a complex, random puzzle. Imagine how awful that would be for pros watching our blitz time out while forced to spend 10-15 minutes working out a randomized puzzle with no easy wiki solution.

Worst case scenario would be a quest where NPC dialogue is randomized and you actually have to read what the NPCs are saying and respond correctly to advance. I can already see Garbage Pail Kids Adam Bomb caricatures detonating all across midwest suburbia.

[MangLord]

"make CR19 800hp mobs into CR40 8000hps"

Seriously, this one thing would make worlds of difference for performance. Instead of blasting out modest 30mbs connection speeds with a screen full of weak mob spawns every few minutes, how about we introduce one or two very tough enemies for the party to deal with instead? Epic Spinner of Shadows does a great job with a few bad-ass Hezrous for the party to deal with, rather than 100 stupid spiders lagging out the instance every few minutes like Thunderholme wilderness with 50 skeletons on screen at any one time, and lagwiping every time you have more than 6 people in the instance. I've never heard of anyone lagging out in SoS. No wonder the Thunderholme raids are notorious for lag. The theory there is that the more junk you throw at players the more fun they'll have, until the home servers or third party service providers can't keep up with the demand on upload/download speeds and no one has a good time. Has anyone from Turbine every tried to play HE Friends in Low Places with a full party from home? I guarantee you won't be able to finish this quest with a full party of capped toons on normal people 30-40mbs connections because everyone will lagwipe every time with the massive amount of mobs constantly being processed. Interesting concept but terrible design for a game reliant on internet connection speeds.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Just because you can always find someone complaining (about everything) doesn't mean there wasn't a solid end game there, their own Ex developer stated that they made a mistake by outstripping old end game without a new end game in place.

You are just arbitrarily saying "it can't be like that again" when it can be, if they were willing to.

just like you're saying arbitrarily there's no way they can churn out enough content... They can if they're willing.

Of course there was an end game, there always was. In todays DDO however, "willing" and "able" are two completely different worlds. They CAN NOT churn out enough new challenging content for the hungriest powergamers. Thats just the way it is. We are going to have to accept that.

But, they can for the majority of us. That's the part I think you missed.

They had no choice but to strip out the old end game because they didnt have the staff, nor the time, to do it any other way. They needed to make the game more accessible for more people. They achieved that. That was bound to **** off longtime players. TR and Epic systems were put in the game to enhance replayability. But in doing so they've stretched the rubber band so far out wack its amazing they've kept the game as solid as it is.

DDO is still a great game. In fact its probably a better game than its ever been before, minus the lack of challenge. However putting out legendary content like Temple of Elemental Evil just great news.

As they begin to form this new end game for DDO, I hope to see them really churn out new content. However, that alone wont be enough. I believe Turbine should take a close look at their ingenious difficulty settings system and create a new level above EE. DDO actually has a unique ability to attract casual and powergamer because of their variety in difficulty settings. This is where I think the devs need to spend some time.

All this is just my opi of course...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

To say it's impossible is massively wrong, in fact it could be accomplished by an intern with a set of rules on post it notes to follow as he batch edits the item and mob data bases of each raid.

"make CR19 800hp mobs into CR40 8000hps"
"make new version of +5 ML20 items into +10 ML30 items"
"seeker 6 becomes seeker 12 on new version"
"Strength +6 becomes +11"
"flaming 1d6 becomes Flaming blast 3d6 (or whatever)"

The problem is not that polishing loot and Mob CR's takes forever, the problem is that making new voice overs, new stories, re-texturing, making new AI for new fights, takes almost as long as just making new content... SO they might as well just do that. Their pride and their sense of "we can do it better than the previous Devs" hubris keeps them from doing the most SIMPLE basic revamp that would give us a huge end game. Imagine having 9 raids to do instead of 3?

Fly me to boston give me access to the data base files and I'd polish 2 old raids per week, while sleeping under Maj Mal's old desk, and surviving on mountain dew and Pumpkin spice iced coffees.

I agree. We are saying the same thing here. The type of thing you are talking about here is exactly what I mean by adding a tougher difficulty setting across the board. Neverwinter is a prime example of how NOT to do respawns. DDO in its darkest day is leagues better in this category. Jacking up the quality of the mobs/bosses on its own EI (Epic Insane) level would be brilliant. I dont think they should just boost on EE though. I think they need to ADD a new setting, adding more challenge for us long time players while offering the same difficulty settings for the large majority of players.

LOL! About that plane ticket... 2 re-polished raids a week by yourself??? Thats some strong Pumpkin spice iced coffee yer drinkin' there!!

[IronClan]

I agree. We are saying the same thing here. The type of thing you are talking about here is exactly what I mean by adding a tougher difficulty setting across the board. Neverwinter is a prime example of how NOT to do respawns. DDO in its darkest day is leagues better in this category. Jacking up the quality of the mobs/bosses on its own EI (Epic Insane) level would be brilliant. I dont think they should just boost on EE though. I think they need to ADD a new setting, adding more challenge for us long time players while offering the same difficulty settings for the large majority of players.

LOL! About that plane ticket... 2 re-polished raids a week by yourself??? Thats some strong Pumpkin spice iced coffee yer drinkin' there!!

I've done enough Mod'ing of games to say with confidence that I could probably do 1 a day. We're talking about increasing values of the 7 or 8 named loot items in a raids database. and usually 6 or 10 mobs types As simple as changing hex values or integers, No creating new art, no new AI scripts, voice overs, new textures, new NPC dialog.

This is what Chaos blade looks like in a DDO item database(or a fair approximation of it) somewhere in Turbine land:
1234(Item ID), 20(minimum level), +6(Enhancement Bonus) 2d8(damage dice) +0(the +[W] value) 1234(prefix ID) 1234(Suffix ID) 1234(special ability) 1234(other unique affixes) 4(slot color 4 means red) 0(additional slot color 0 means none)

The ID's point to static affixes (True Chaos 1d6 is a static value in a database full of prefixes it has an ID string) you change 1234(prefix ID) to 4321(prefix ID) and suddenly every new Chaos Blade comes with that prefix instead of 1234, lets say 4321 is the ID of Absolute Chaos 3d6... so I've upgraded it, by pointing to the more powerful version of the prefix.

Now we turn the +5 into a +10, the ML from 20 to 30, +0[W] becomes +3[W], Anarchic Burst to Blast, True Chaos was just changed to Absolute Chaos, Vampirism to Greater, Vorpal to Sovereign, and Red slot becomes Purple and Red.

Now hit "save as" and email it to who ever is in charge of Q/A since MajMal went across the hall to LOTRO and get them to read over changes to make sure I didn't turn eSoS back into a X4 multiplier "by mistake" :cool:

[Tarinia]

Snip "Update 24 will round out the year with new quests, new Festivult cookies, and a new event that centers on something we can all agree on: looting chests! We’ll be continuing our work on the Anauroch Desert (in the Forgotten Realms), planning for Sentient Weapons, and developing another Classic Dungeon like the Haunted Halls of Eveningstar. We expect these to be something you’ll see in the first half of 2015. We’re pushing out the level cap for now to make sure we have plenty of questing to support your journey through the highest levels of DDO. Hitting level 30 will be a big milestone for DDO, and we want to put it out when the timing is right, and make sure its design keeps up with the way you, the players want to play DDO. "

Looks like this is the confusion

The letter is later out by Update but, the future plans are all crammed into this bit with U24.

So do this mean we are still getting Anaurock in the future?

The Event will it be ready soon?

Yes, you are totally right- in the old producer letters it was always stated, that Turbine will develop Anauroch AND a new classic module (now named ToEE) AND lv30.
So why should be there a decision between them- they have promised and should developed both as soon as possible or are resources shorted again and the VIP charges not?
Best regards
Tarinia

[nibel]

Those raids and epic quests still exist. I dont remember a time when I saw the majority of "end gamers" state the above... It was always, TOO EASY, or OK DID THAT now what...

IMO, this is mostly because DDO is no longer an alt-haven like it was when the cap was 20.

Before, even a first life character could be amazing at high-end epic quests. The number requirements were not too high, and we really benefitted from a diverse group formation, to the point that almost everyone had a handful of alts to "cover gaps" if needed: A cc-wiz alt, a rogue alt, a healer alt, a tank alt, etc. You had to gear all those characters, and most gear or ingredients were either unbound or BtA. So you could bring your healer to play an eVoN and pass down the SoS shard you looted to your DPS barbarian, or get your CC wiz into TTT and pass the Midnight Greetings shard to your rogue. The game allowed everyone to play with any character they might have and reap their rewards account-wide, with very few exceptions (once you crafted an epic item is was bound, the few BtC items out there, etc).

Since MotU and the introduction of Epic Destinies, only people with A TON of free time can reasonably have alts and expect to run high-end content. This have the tendency for most people to have one single uber character, with all past lifes (since they are focusing in a single character, why not?^), all btc gear, only have to craft one or two items of the crafting systems (TF weapons, shadow armors, dragon armors, etc)... and the system is still designed with the underling thinking that we have ten alts to spread the love.

That is why so many people now get to the new quests, farm them to the death, and asks for more. Because they are not playing to challenge themselves. They are playing for the loot (and there is NOTHING wrong with playing for the loot), and once they have the loot, they get bored.We have plenty of challenging content out there, people just don't run them. Cannith Challenges are still hard to six-star most of them. Titan still requires a ton of coordination and is a raid where raw power is meaningless. Ditto for Abbot. And all failing, there is always self-gimping for challenge (build a flavor character, never access your TR chace, build a new character in a new server, etc).

[DarthCaedus]

The Temple of Elemental Evil.

Yep, we will be creating our own version of the original, classic Temple inside DDO. We’re very excited about adapting one of the most famous modules in Dungeons and Dragons history, and we hope you are too.

In the meantime, though, we have a date with insanity. Hope to see everyone this weekend on Lamannia for a preview of Update 24!

Do we travel to greyhawk to get there?

[DarthCaedus]

I disagree. There was a clearly defined and robust endgame pre-MotU, I think, with tons of epic quests, several epic raids, and a bunch of high level heroic raids that still offered some challenge and some desirable loot for endgame players.

It was nice, but there weren't many people participating in endgame on a regular basis.

[Uska]

Do we travel to greyhawk to get there?

Looks like sort of but no village or glimpse into the world

[Cetus]

Those raids and epic quests still exist. I dont remember a time when I saw the majority of "end gamers" state the above... It was always, TOO EASY, or OK DID THAT now what... either way, at the end of the day, there is no way Turbine will be able to churn out enough challenging new content for a player like Cetus.

So, Id like to see an end game where the majority of those that reach levels 27-30 feel a challenge. That said, if we were to have another difficulty setting above EE, then maybe we can start talking about providing challenge to long time players and even Cetus. I would be all for that.

Look, I'm not sure why you lost any hope that a healthy endgame can emerge in DDO. I suspect that the lack of things to do at endgame is partially the reason why the population is thinning. Along with no advertisement, the game is far from what it used to be in terms of just getting a 12 man group together for a raid.

I gave two simple guidelines for the devs to make "players like cetus" happy.

1. The loot that drops on EE should not be attainable on any other difficulty or AH. If you want EE loot, you must run EE. You can call this tiered loot, but mythic/epic is also a way of tiering loot.

EE needs to have worthwhile carrots.

2. Elimination of raid bypass timers and the inclusion of 16 hour timers for big adventures like ToEE. This will make this stuff last a lot longer.

[Qhualor]

Look, I'm not sure why you lost any hope that a healthy endgame can emerge in DDO. I suspect that the lack of things to do at endgame is partially the reason why the population is thinning. Along with no advertisement, the game is far from what it used to be in terms of just getting a 12 man group together for a raid.

I gave two simple guidelines for the devs to make "players like cetus" happy.

1. The loot that drops on EE should not be attainable on any other difficulty or AH. If you want EE loot, you must run EE. You can call this tiered loot, but mythic/epic is also a way of tiering loot.

EE needs to have worthwhile carrots.

2. Elimination of raid bypass timers and the inclusion of 16 hour timers for big adventures like ToEE. This will make this stuff last a lot longer.

3. Disable duping

[Kaiserkreuz]

Still no update to other named Items from older pack to have augment slots and increased weapon dmg to be in concise with with current loot gen.

Still no update to range power for range users?

Still no melee power for Two Weapon Fighting?

Hmm why is there no Epic Destiny feat for Sword and Shield style of melee combat?

[EllisDee37]

the old producer letters it was always stated, that Turbine will develop Anauroch AND a new classic module (now named ToEE) AND lv30.
So why should be there a decision between themBecause of all the layoffs at Turbine.

[EllisDee37]

2. Elimination of raid bypass timers and the inclusion of 16 hour timers for big adventures like ToEE. This will make this stuff last a lot longer.I'm starting to lean toward EE-only loot, if only because thinking about the pre-MotU endgame, a big part of that was epic gear, which of course was only acquirable by running epics. A similar mechanic would have to be EE-only loot. It's simply not endgame if you can get the loot on EN.

So how about two loot tiers: Epic (EC, EN and EH version, all the same) and Mythic (EE version.) Or whatever you want to call them. The non-EE version is what would drop in 20th lists for raids. Meaning to get the really good stuff, it has to drop in a chest, and it has to be run on EE.

As the second part of the plan, raid bypass timers only bypass EN and EH. It won't let you go in on EE until your 66 hours are up, even if you use a bypass. But you can blast though on EN (or EH) using bypasses to farm 20th lists as frequently as you like, keeping in mind that 20th lists drop the weaker tier loot, not the EE loot.

I'm thinking the idea is to blast through the raid a bunch of times using timers to get to 20th lists in order to kit yourself up with the weaker tier loot, then once you're squared away with that you can then start farming the Mythic versions on EE at once per 3 days.

Would something like that be workable?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

2. Elimination of raid bypass timers. This will make this stuff last a lot longer.

No. What it will do is make you get the loot faster and you'll be whining for more content faster.


Oh as for end game, I KNOW Turbine can and will put together a new end game scene. What I meant (and in fact said) was that YOU wont be happy with it! ;)

Lets see if Im wrong (I hope I am)

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I'm starting to lean toward EE-only loot, if only because thinking about the pre-MotU endgame, a big part of that was epic gear, which of course was only acquirable by running epics. A similar mechanic would have to be EE-only loot. It's simply not endgame if you can get the loot on EN.

So how about two loot tiers: Epic (EC, EN and EH version, all the same) and Mythic (EE version.) Or whatever you want to call them. The non-EE version is what would drop in 20th lists for raids. Meaning to get the really good stuff, it has to drop in a chest, and it has to be run on EE.

As the second part of the plan, raid bypass timers only bypass EN and EH. It won't let you go in on EE until your 66 hours are up, even if you use a bypass. But you can blast though on EN (or EH) using bypasses to farm 20th lists as frequently as you like, keeping in mind that 20th lists drop the weaker tier loot, not the EE loot.

I'm thinking the idea is to blast through the raid a bunch of times using timers to get to 20th lists in order to kit yourself up with the weaker tier loot, then once you're squared away with that you can then start farming the Mythic versions on EE at once per 3 days.

Would something like that be workable?

This is a pretty good concept, however I would repackage the EE loot at Mythic loot and create a new level of difficulty above EE. Cant make the gear more powerful though.. that would kill the point of adding challenge.

[Cetus]

I'm starting to lean toward EE-only loot, if only because thinking about the pre-MotU endgame, a big part of that was epic gear, which of course was only acquirable by running epics. A similar mechanic would have to be EE-only loot. It's simply not endgame if you can get the loot on EN.

So how about two loot tiers: Epic (EC, EN and EH version, all the same) and Mythic (EE version.) Or whatever you want to call them. The non-EE version is what would drop in 20th lists for raids. Meaning to get the really good stuff, it has to drop in a chest, and it has to be run on EE.

As the second part of the plan, raid bypass timers only bypass EN and EH. It won't let you go in on EE until your 66 hours are up, even if you use a bypass. But you can blast though on EN (or EH) using bypasses to farm 20th lists as frequently as you like, keeping in mind that 20th lists drop the weaker tier loot, not the EE loot.

I'm thinking the idea is to blast through the raid a bunch of times using timers to get to 20th lists in order to kit yourself up with the weaker tier loot, then once you're squared away with that you can then start farming the Mythic versions on EE at once per 3 days.

Would something like that be workable?

Great post! I'm totally for this.


No. What it will do is make you get the loot faster and you'll be whining for more content faster.


Oh as for end game, I KNOW Turbine can and will put together a new end game scene. What I meant (and in fact said) was that YOU wont be happy with it! ;)

Lets see if Im wrong (I hope I am)

How does, what you just wrote, make any sense?

Removing the bypasses and implementing a 16 hour timer for huge quests like ToEE will make me get loot faster?

The whole point of the suggestion is to extend the content by preventing us from roflstomping content on normal.

Like I said, the write up by EllisDee makes me completely happy.

[Oxarhamar]

This is a pretty good concept, however I would repackage the EE loot at Mythic loot and create a new level of difficulty above EE. Cant make the gear more powerful though.. that would kill the point of adding challenge.

Not having a higher reward whould also kill the point of the challenge.

Challenge with no reward is not going to satisfy the player base either.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

IMO, this is mostly because DDO is no longer an alt-haven like it was when the cap was 20.

Before, even a first life character could be amazing at high-end epic quests. The number requirements were not too high, and we really benefitted from a diverse group formation, to the point that almost everyone had a handful of alts to "cover gaps" if needed: A cc-wiz alt, a rogue alt, a healer alt, a tank alt, etc. You had to gear all those characters, and most gear or ingredients were either unbound or BtA. So you could bring your healer to play an eVoN and pass down the SoS shard you looted to your DPS barbarian, or get your CC wiz into TTT and pass the Midnight Greetings shard to your rogue. The game allowed everyone to play with any character they might have and reap their rewards account-wide, with very few exceptions (once you crafted an epic item is was bound, the few BtC items out there, etc).

Since MotU and the introduction of Epic Destinies, only people with A TON of free time can reasonably have alts and expect to run high-end content. This have the tendency for most people to have one single uber character, with all past lifes (since they are focusing in a single character, why not?^), all btc gear, only have to craft one or two items of the crafting systems (TF weapons, shadow armors, dragon armors, etc)... and the system is still designed with the underling thinking that we have ten alts to spread the love.

That is why so many people now get to the new quests, farm them to the death, and asks for more. Because they are not playing to challenge themselves. They are playing for the loot (and there is NOTHING wrong with playing for the loot), and once they have the loot, they get bored.We have plenty of challenging content out there, people just don't run them. Cannith Challenges are still hard to six-star most of them. Titan still requires a ton of coordination and is a raid where raw power is meaningless. Ditto for Abbot. And all failing, there is always self-gimping for challenge (build a flavor character, never access your TR chace, build a new character in a new server, etc).

There is no question thats part of it, but the game was created this way on purpose. If you chose to drive the TR train, you have dedicated yourself to that toon. Thats the way it should be. The TR system was a grinding mechanism to put in to keep people playing. Period. I agree the Cannith challenges are challenging, so there is opportunity there to revisit some gear and make people want to run that content. Put a carrot there, people will run it. Epic Destinies does a great job adding power to all kinds of builds that were sitting in mothballs. I have a ton of alts since I love to character build. So there's two sides to that coin.

I dont have nearly the time I used to play... yet Im enjoying all parts of the game (Ok korthos is not my cup of tea, yet others love the area). And thats where I think we have the divide. The game is in a great place for casual players right now. All levels of challenge for them to enjoy. For players like me, if ALL I played was end game, Id have quit this game long ago. So yes, I like and want to see a quality end game.

If Turbine can find a way to offer levels of challenge for us long time players ('05 here) without removing currently available difficulty settings for newer/casual/majority of the DDO playerbase, then I think we'll be sitting pretty. This is why Id like to see a new difficulty setting -- so we can turn the knob to 11 in as many quests as we can, satisfying the greatest number of players, without taking away the feel of the game for those at all player skill levels and playstyles.

[Hendrik]

Personally, I think players should be completely excluded from the decision process because they're horrible at designing anything. Player feedback was listened to entirely too much during the bard and pally reboots, and it has created such a mess that it's completely changed the game DDO is within just two updates.

Absolutely horrible.

With all due respect, you have no idea how much the feedback from the PC and ML has saved the community from disaster.

No, player feedback is vital to the design process.

[Hendrik]

Pretty certain I haven't seen a single post in this thread complaining about getting ToEE.

On the contrary - Despite the multiple posts about how Xorian is awful and who the heck did the Devs ask? ToEE has been pretty well received!

Second page.

;)

[EllisDee37]

Like I said, the write up by EllisDee makes me completely happy.Oddly, the more I think about it the more I like it. I say "oddly" because I've always been against tiered loot, though not strongly enough to go to the wall on it.

What changed my mind was writing the post in this thread about how we used to have an endgame before MotU. It made me stop and think about what exactly made it endgame, and how it worked. The real key to that system was epic gear, which of course could only be acquired by running (lots and lots of) epic quests and raids. I see now that getting the best loot on EN is anathema to the concept of endgame.

Just to clarify, what I wrote was really just restating your idea. My only contribution was to come up with a way that Turbine could still make money with bypasses while not allowing them to short-circuit endgame. Which I agree with you about; bypasses are also an endgame killer.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

With all due respect, you have no idea how much the feedback from the PC and ML has saved the community from disaster.

No, player feedback is vital to the design process.

I agree totally. PC + ML + focused forum community threads (whether dev/moderator created, or created by anyone in our forum community) were, are and always will be integral to the heartbeat of this game. Thanks for all the work from the ML and PC peoples for all ya'll have done for DDO.

[MeliCat]

With all due respect, you have no idea how much the feedback from the PC and ML has saved the community from disaster.

No, player feedback is vital to the design process.

LOL. Oh my, yes. Far out. That's not to say that developers don't ultimately make up their own minds and that might run totally counter to ours in the end. I see focus groups like Lamm and the PC as a chance to throw up things that they may not have thought of ... and occasionally there are some doozies or some good ideas. Although often what is presented is pretty comprehensive. The developers are not at all stupid even if they are not omniscient.

[SilkofDrasnia]

There is no question thats part of it, but the game was created this way on purpose. If you chose to drive the TR train, you have dedicated yourself to that toon. Thats the way it should be. The TR system was a grinding mechanism to put in to keep people playing. Period. I agree the Cannith challenges are challenging, so there is opportunity there to revisit some gear and make people want to run that content. Put a carrot there, people will run it. Epic Destinies does a great job adding power to all kinds of builds that were sitting in mothballs. I have a ton of alts since I love to character build. So there's two sides to that coin.

I dont have nearly the time I used to play... yet Im enjoying all parts of the game (Ok korthos is not my cup of tea, yet others love the area). And thats where I think we have the divide. The game is in a great place for casual players right now. All levels of challenge for them to enjoy. For players like me, if ALL I played was end game, Id have quit this game long ago. So yes, I like and want to see a quality end game.

If Turbine can find a way to offer levels of challenge for us long time players ('05 here) without removing currently available difficulty settings for newer/casual/majority of the DDO playerbase, then I think we'll be sitting pretty. This is why Id like to see a new difficulty setting -- so we can turn the knob to 11 in as many quests as we can, satisfying the greatest number of players, without taking away the feel of the game for those at all player skill levels and playstyles.

We had a good endgame back when we had epics with no difficulty choice (n/h/e) and it wasn't because gear was tiered but because it was bloody long (compared to now) to get the named item/shard/seal/scroll. We had a good endgame because raids were on a 3 day timer and epic on a 16hr timer.

Then we had what I call the shade revolution and all that was killed off with epics n/h/e and was further killed or pushed away with the great casual vs hardcore challenge debate, guess what the casuals won because money talks.

As much as it might be interesting to go back it will not happen because...money talks. Just look at the recent changes they are doing to classes and all the power creep they have added via epic destinies and the new gear...lol I do not know how anyone can think they really about endgame challenge.

Sad thing is this isn't limited to DDO take most any other mmo out there and they cater to casuals...hell look at Wildstar the game caters to endgame and challenge and look how badly that is going.

Dunno but I think it's better to stop fighting a lost cause and walk looking forwards into the future instead of looking backwards.

Humpty Dumpty is broke......

[IronClan]

Personally, I think players should be completely excluded from the decision process because they're horrible at designing anything. Player feedback was listened to entirely too much during the bard and pally reboots, and it has created such a mess that it's completely changed the game DDO is within just two updates.

Absolutely horrible.

This is just your failure to see the big picture, you can't see the forest for the trees. They are going through the classes from weakest to strongest according to their polling results, this necessarily means that the weakest get the most buffing otherwise when they tweak the stronger classes that are in the middle or closer to the top, the weak classes wont have been buffed enough to keep up.

Personally I love the new Bard and Paladin... it's great being a viable part of a group using a class that people used to have to apologize for.

I however am not fooled into believing last months Flavor is suddenly terrible. I have a Centered Kensei eSoS build that is comparable DPS (maybe a tad bit lower, but not for long I suspect) to either of those yet is more survivable than either (25% incorporeal 28% dodge is better than any AC, and now new more effective PRR and some MRR on top even in Pajamas i got more durable than a Heavy armored Paladin without a shield is, I know this from first hand experience). I also have a Staff build that is actually higher DPS (probably best weaponized non wolf melee DPS in the game right now if you know what you're doing when you build it) than those two and the same survivability as the Centered Kensei.

So the top is still arguably at or near the top, and they are raising the floor one step at a time. The Top has been buffed a little as a unavoidable side effect of LOW value PRR and MRR increases while they were already ahead on mitigation, and AC still being not worth the investment. If they didn't make Swash and Paladin comparable to the top DPS then "halo effect" buffs to non monk classes like Fighter that will buff a Centered Kensei would be IMPOSSIBLE. if you improve Fighter you improve Monk+Fighter, if you improve Ranger you potentially improve Wolf builds and Monkchers. If you improve Rogue you potentially improve any Top Flavor of the month build that uses a couple rogue levels...

So you see it all makes sense with a little perspective doesn't it?

[FranOhmsford]

Then we had what I call the shade revolution and all that was killed off with epics n/h/e and was further killed or pushed away with the great casual vs hardcore challenge debate, guess what the casuals won because money talks.


The Casuals won?

Really?

What Casuals were these exactly?

Casuals now are so much further away from EVER being maxed out than back then it's simply unbelievable!

The Power Gamers won that argument NOT The So Called Casuals!

[Oxarhamar]

The Casuals won?

Really?

What Casuals were these exactly?

Casuals now are so much further away from EVER being maxed out than back then it's simply unbelievable!

The Power Gamers won that argument NOT The So Called Casuals!



With the death of Tiered loot and EN rewarding the best items in the game (save a few old ones that haven't been outclasses yet)

yeah Casuals have no reason to be behind. The same power is available to anyone on Epic Normal.

[Grosbeak07]

With the death of Tiered loot and EN rewarding the best items in the game (save a few old ones that haven't been outclasses yet)

yeah Casuals have no reason to be behind. The same power is available to anyone on Epic Normal.


Casual's don't grind like power gamers.

I see some players complain that Haunted Hall's loot is too easy to get, yet I've yet to see a single named item in any of my runs.

I run the quest maybe 1-3 times per week. If I was to run the quest 10x per day, sure I'd eventually get all the loot faster, but that's not how casual's play.

[SilkofDrasnia]

The Casuals won?

Really?

What Casuals were these exactly?

Casuals now are so much further away from EVER being maxed out than back then it's simply unbelievable!

The Power Gamers won that argument NOT The So Called Casuals!

LoL

What game are you playing?

Roll a first life char run to lvl 28 level up a few destinies for fate point and a few choice twists, pretty much any decent random loot ~ win

If that is not casual enough for you well ..I dunno what to tell you.

[IronClan]

Despite the multiple posts about how Xorian is awful and who the heck did the Devs ask? ToEE has been pretty well received!


And really who gives a flip about anyone that doesn't like new Xoriat quests, they obviously have simplistic tastes and should be ignored.

[Oxarhamar]

Casual's don't grind like power gamers.

I see some players complain that Haunted Hall's loot is too easy to get, yet I've yet to see a single named item in any of my runs.

I run the quest maybe 1-3 times per week. If I was to run the quest 10x per day, sure I'd eventually get all the loot faster, but that's not how casual's play.

Your probably doing a decent job but, are you soloing or running in a group? Groups are better of course for more loot chances per chest.

Considering chest ransack if you run it 10 times a day you'd strip the chest and not be able to run it again for a week.

I don't farm for anything but, I'm not that type of player that must have an item. If I want an item I add the quest it comes from into my TR/ETR pattern and get it when I get it. TR/ETR is more important to me.

still that's nieghter here nor there, the point stands there is no difficulty barrier casuals and power gamers have the same amount of power available to them with no tiered loot.

[FranOhmsford]

LoL

What game are you playing?

Roll a first life char run to lvl 28 level up a few destinies for fate point and a few choice twists, pretty much any decent random loot ~ win

If that is not casual enough for you well ..I dunno what to tell you.

No player I've ever seen in 4 years playing this game who's levelled that fast could in any way be considered "Casual"!

And simply getting to 28 will only level 2 {maybe 3 destinies} - On Most characters this actually means NO COCOON!

Levelling to 28 itself will take a "Casual" MONTHS!
E-TRing to complete destinies adds weeks possibly months on to this time!
And you ignore 2nd and 3rd Life too!

And gear:

1) Most Random Loot in Epics is Vendor Trash! OR double-up {Having 3 items with +5, +6 and +7 Str on them is utterly pointless but that's what people who rely on Random Loot end up with!

2) Named Loot requires a certain amount of Grind - If levelling fast you'll get very little actual named loot that's useful for YOUR character.

3) Augments are P2W - P2W despite what some people seem to believe suits Power Gamers far more than Casuals!

4) Levelling fast you'll pick up plat at a steady rate but by 28 you'll still have less than 1 million unless you've been playing the AH.
And you can forget AS unless you're willing to P2W!
1 Million Plat won't get you much these days - And if you've been filling up on Pots, Scrolls and Wands as you level that number will be much lower!


ACTUAL Casuals do ask for DDO to be made easier BUT what the Devs have given us over the past 2 years has catered almost exclusively to Power Gamers.
Ghostbane being a notable EXCEPTION that was aimed at Newbies after the Devs read some exit surveys rather than at "Casuals"

Newbie, Casual, Power-Gamer, Hardcore and many other designators AREN'T mutually exclusive.
A Hardcore Gamer may only play DDO once a Month!
A Casual Gamer may play DDO every day!
Which one of these has more use for P2W?
It's NOT the Casual:
The Casual doesn't need 1 Heroic and 3 Epic Otto's Boxes to bypass the levelling process so they can get straight into the End-Game!
The Casual doesn't need to throw money at getting Augments or Raid Timers so she can gear up as fast as possible!

What the Casual DOES need however is people to play with at the level that Casual is capable at and with BB, Timer Bypasses and Destinies the number of people willing to run anything other than Elite has not so much dwindled as CRASHED & BURNED!

Go ahead - Tell the Casual he/she HAS to solo the lower difficulties in a game based on Dungeons & Dragons {Possibly the most Teamwork oriented hobby ever invented!} AND in a Massively Multiplayer Online RPG!
See that Casual RUN from the game!

[apacheizm23]

The Casuals won?

Really?

What Casuals were these exactly?

Casuals now are so much further away from EVER being maxed out than back then it's simply unbelievable!

The Power Gamers won that argument NOT The So Called Casuals!

What is a power gamer??? Explain that to me?

I know of just the people who play the game, and than those that want the game and all its rewards handed to them easy and quickly. That's basically it. On another note, I don't blame the developers of these games for putting a price tag on getting what ya want in a game, for the most part that is. They gotta make money that's just the way it is. I been saying that for a long time Its about the $$$$$$ And it will always be about the $$$$$.

Oh and for you're post saying "Casuals now are so much further away from EVER being maxed out than back then it's simply unbelievable!" That's cause the "Casuals" got game developers to help them come along more quickly in these games that its only made what you call "Power Gamers" gaming even easier.

I for one think the game has made huge strides and is so much better than ever before, but at the same time it is a bit too easy and with that, it becomes monotonous for players like myself who have been playing a long time. But I understand that Turbine has to try and make a lot of folks with different strokes happy, cause its about the Benjamins kidd!

By the way I'm no what you called "Power Gamer" I just love the game and enjoy playing it. And I still learn something new every now and than :)