dps meter

[wardanger]

I think a dps meter is long overdue. Being able to check the dps output of various builds and gear would be a nice benefit.

[Knobull]

Training dummy?

[Oxarhamar]

Training dummy?

I think what the player is asking for is a target to beat down as hard and fast as a player can for a period of time then displays a DPS output number.

I can kill the dummy in a single shot that measures nothing.

[Knobull]

I can kill the dummy in a single shot that measures nothing.

Oh, that's a problem. (strictly non-epic player here) So the training dummy is no good for stupid high damage levels. Maybe they could make a beefed up one for epic silliness?

[Deadlock]

No. Just no.

If you disagree then this is not the game you're looking for.

[Qhualor]

I think a dps meter is long overdue. Being able to check the dps output of various builds and gear would be a nice benefit.

I would like to see a dps meter as well, but it would only inflate some players epeens.

[Monkey-Boy]

No. Just no.

If you disagree then this is not the game you're looking for.

Explain why.

[moo_cow]

I think a dps meter is long overdue. Being able to check the dps output of various builds and gear would be a nice benefit.

As long as you are the only one that can see it, I don't want others to know I pike everything.

[Toro12]

I think a dps meter is long overdue. Being able to check the dps output of various builds and gear would be a nice benefit.

Must be the first Thursday of the month , time for another ePeen *coughh* I mean DPS
measuring thread

[Deadlock]

Explain why.

Few throw-away reasons for starters.

1. Obsessing about DPS is not conducive to fun
2. Obsessing about DPS is not necessary to be awesome at the highest level of the game
3. DDO should never be about only DPS

Explain why you think you need one?

[Monkey-Boy]

Few throw-away reasons for starters.

1. Obsessing about DPS is not conducive to fun

For you, you speak for nobody but you.



2. Obsessing about DPS is not necessary to be awesome at the highest level of the game

How do you know what it's like to be awesome at DDO?



3. DDO should never be about only DPS

Very weak strawman, you can do better.

And yes, in the high end this game is nothing but about DPS. It's pretty awful but that's the sad reality of this overly simple game.



Explain why you think you need one?

We honestly don't, we can see the HP on enough stuff that you can time yourself killing stuff. Do that a couple of times and you'll get a good real-world test of your character.

[bartharok]

For you, you speak for nobody but you.



How do you know what it's like to be awesome at DDO?



Very weak strawman, you can do better.

And yes, in the high end this game is nothing but about DPS. It's pretty awful but that's the sad reality of this overly simple game.



We honestly don't, we can see the HP on enough stuff that you can time yourself killing stuff. Do that a couple of times and you'll get a good real-world test of your character.

If you really use only dps as a measure of your skill in game, that tells me something about you as a player. Anybody can pick up a good build and use it with a little training, but taking a poor build and using it effectively is a real measure of skill in my opinion.

[Monkey-Boy]

. . . but taking a poor build and using it effectively is a real measure of skill in my opinion.

Nonsense.

And this isn't about player skill, it's about measuring something that is tangible. Why would you not want to do that?

[bartharok]

Nonsense.

Sense. Anybody can build something with a readymade kit (it may be pretty awful, but still), but making something from scratch requires skill.

[bartharok]

And this isn't about player skill, it's about measuring something that is tangible. Why would you not want to do that?

I wouldnt call a few numbers in a game tangible, and see absolutely no point in making it the measure of anything. Its like when hp became visible to others. Suddenly the amount of hp you had was the measure of your toon. Which meant that having enough hp to survive a quest wasnt enough, but everybody was required to bloat their hp at the cost of other things.

[Singular]

If you really use only dps as a measure of your skill in game, that tells me something about you as a player. Anybody can pick up a good build and use it with a little training, but taking a poor build and using it effectively is a real measure of skill in my opinion.

I don't think Monkey-boy is arguing that "dps can only be a measure of skill in game."

It would be nice to have a dps measure so that people can tweak their builds - actually know what kinds of trade-offs you're getting by swapping out equipment. For ex, I often have to choose between the jeweled cloak and adamantine cloak of the wolf - how much dps am I gaining by using the +5 insight bonus to seeker? How much am I losing by not using it?

[bartharok]

I don't think Monkey-boy is arguing that "dps can only be a measure of skill in game."

It would be nice to have a dps measure so that people can tweak their builds - actually know what kinds of trade-offs you're getting by swapping out equipment. For ex, I often have to choose between the jeweled cloak and adamantine cloak of the wolf - how much dps am I gaining by using the +5 insight bonus to seeker? How much am I losing by not using it?

His way of expressing his points annoys me, so i oppose him.

A dps meter wouldnt help much in tweaking, since you might gain more damage, but be unable to deliver it over time.

[moo_cow]

If you really use only dps as a measure of your skill in game, that tells me something about you as a player. Anybody can pick up a good build and use it with a little training, but taking a poor build and using it effectively is a real measure of skill in my opinion.

That may be true, but that would make you a bit stupid for playing a crappy character instead of wanting to dps.

[bartharok]

That may be true, but that would make you a bit stupid for playing a crappy character instead of wanting to dps.

Hey, thats my way of getting a challenge, since i dont expect anybody else to make my fun.

[Lallajulia]

absolutely - yes.

why? game, basically, is about dps. like car is about speed on road have speed-o-meter, game about damage should have usable damage-o-meter. it is actually there already(combat log), just it is normally unusable. dps meter would collect combat log data and gives out some more usable numbers.

there is no reason no to.

why? if someone do not want see hes dps, he can not watch it, so simple.
and reason "i do not want", just because some person do not want to see something, can not be reason for others to now allow them to see what this person do not want to see.

if someone would want hide hes dps, it should be allowed.

[Hafeal]

If you want to watch your dps, open your combat log.

No one else wants to watch it.

[MacRighteous]

An effective DPS meter that gives out more information than your personal combat log, would require some sort of API or tool that relies on interfacing with the inner logic of the game server. With such a tool some people could theoretically hack into the games database and get back or send in data that could compromise the integrity of the game system. To many of us it would just be a simple tool that measures how much damage we are doing (or even worse to measure how much damage your party members are doing), but to others it would be a gift to bring Turbine down.

We all know about individuals who seem to make it their life's goal to cause massive game breaking havoc to ruin DDO, what do you suppose these individuals could do with a tool that peeks behind the curtain and potentially manipulates game data?

Frankly - with exploiting, duping, and the generally nefarious maturity level of DDO's player base - Turbine would have to be nuts to allow such a function to exists.

[goodspeed]

Explain why.

lol because hes from the old style mmo's. The ones before all the f2p, and solo mmo's.

And it was various dps meters that measured the worth of players in group (and trust me people felt the need to parse it after every encounter haha)

However it also had its reversed edge effect. And that is where the idiot, accursed word "BALANCE" came in. Warlock looks at the parse and claims BS!!!! that assassin is doing more dmg then me. The assassin looks at the ranger and screams HEY! How is that ranged reject doing more dmg then I?!! The ranger looks at the swash and goes.. hey ***! Hows the support class kickn everyones ass?

And so on and so forth until the classes literally become one big lump of clay. Any class, any profession. They all dominate and heal. I mean hell near the end the clerics (By far the lowest of the low dps classes) were solo manning instances. Oh eq how I miss your grandeur.

Honestly though it shouldn't be that hard to plug this game into your average outside parse source. Nothings really stopping the average player from seeing how much they suck compared to that robotic centered ESOS.

[Archangel666]

Going to have to disagree with the idea of a DPS Meter. It would just lead to more exclusion for some players.

Some players rely on PuG's to get things done (poor buggers), and I can just see it now:

Player requests to join a PuG for some raid, and gets a tell "What's your DPS?"

Player responds "#####"

"Not high enough" Declined.


Anyone remember when MyDDO was up and running and people would actually check it when deciding on groups?

This would be the same thing, but worse, because it would stagnate the game.

[Gremmlynn]

I don't think Monkey-boy is arguing that "dps can only be a measure of skill in game."

It would be nice to have a dps measure so that people can tweak their builds - actually know what kinds of trade-offs you're getting by swapping out equipment. For ex, I often have to choose between the jeweled cloak and adamantine cloak of the wolf - how much dps am I gaining by using the +5 insight bonus to seeker? How much am I losing by not using it?That's easy if you complete quests with it, but fail without it, it's significant. If not, it isn't.

Quest completion is the only "meter" this game needs as it's the only one that really matters.

[Oxarhamar]

An effective DPS meter that gives out more information than your personal combat log, would require some sort of API or tool that relies on interfacing with the inner logic of the game server. With such a tool some people could theoretically hack into the games database and get back or send in data that could compromise the integrity of the game system. To many of us it would just be a simple tool that measures how much damage we are doing (or even worse to measure how much damage your party members are doing), but to others it would be a gift to bring Turbine down.

We all know about individuals who seem to make it their life's goal to cause massive game breaking havoc to ruin DDO, what do you suppose these individuals could do with a tool that peeks behind the curtain and potentially manipulates game data?

Frankly - with exploiting, duping, and the generally nefarious maturity level of DDO's player base - Turbine would have to be nuts to allow such a function to exists.

a DPS meter wouldn't need any of that.

Just a bag of HP beat on it for X amount of time as hard as you can. Total damage dealt over time divided by number of seconds in the duration = DPS. Clean and simple.

[MagicBlue]

Best DPS meter is to fight different foes with different equipment and check deeply the combat log.

Absolute DPS number does not exist. You should have many meters up to the different foe you face. Some equipment maximize DPS for some mobs and other maximize for other mobs.

Fighting and digging in combat log is the best way to check it (and you will be surprised about how many things you can learn from the log)

[LightBear]

Explain why.

Because This game isn't about dps at all.

There is so much richness that a dps meter would be a serious flaw.

Btw, just beat down a portal of you must measure anything. ????

[Singular]

His way of expressing his points annoys me, so i oppose him.

Let's just throw rationality to the wind and argue only from our raw feeling.


A dps meter wouldnt help much in tweaking, since you might gain more damage, but be unable to deliver it over time.

No! NOOOOOO! You're so wrong! Gosh, but way wrong.

[Singular]

If you want to watch your dps, open your combat log.

No one else wants to watch it.

The combat log is not a great tool. You can't force some data to go unrevealed - you can't ignore stuff that isn't interesting to you. So you have to slog through so much noise to actually read what you're looking for.

[MagicBlue]

The combat log is not a great tool. You can't force some data to go unrevealed - you can't ignore stuff that isn't interesting to you. So you have to slog through so much noise to actually read what you're looking for.

As all logs do.
But inside the noise you can find what you want.
What should be really interesting is the ability to have the combat log saved on local system (every game session). With simple tools it can be checked with ease.

[Erik_Loki]

Hi, I don t think that a dps meter is a bad idea, but it's true that being awesome in ddo is not only "have an high dps".

My PDK Pure Bard spellsinger is an example. 110-130 base damage in dps is not so high in comparison with other builds (swashbuckler version or others) but my Enchantment DC is like 75-76 so... maybe i wont be the top killer in the dungeon, but with my help quite all EE quests are very very very easy...

Greetings

Marco

[Eth]

It's funny how some people oppose such an idea with the argument what other's think about your DPS.

DPS meter is to determine your own DPS and see how different things can increase/decrease your DPS and by how much. It would be an awesome tool for that.

Who cares about people that need it to compare p***s size with it.

Determining your DPS is possible but annoying. The only reliable way is with recording footage on a mob where you can see HP. Therefore it limits testing to those mobs only and there aren't even many rednamed/purplenamed for that and often enough they are annoying to get to solo.

...and combat log - please. Analyzing the combat log takes a load of work and is way out of reach for most peoples technical knowledge (footage of clearly readable combat log; OCR combat log; dumping to text; filtering important stuff of the text).

[BigErkyKid]

Because This game isn't about dps at all.

There is so much richness that a dps meter would be a serious flaw.

Btw, just beat down a portal of you must measure anything. ????

I disagree. Right now two things matter to finish quests: DPS and self healing.

All the rest is fluff.

It is a sad state but it is what it is, let's not talk about "much richness" and other stuff which IG amounts to nothing.

[Oxarhamar]

As all logs do.
But inside the noise you can find what you want.
What should be really interesting is the ability to have the combat log saved on local system (every game session). With simple tools it can be checked with ease.

No sorry the combat log is in no way even close to a DPS measure.

First off the the numbers fly by and are continually erased by dozens of constantly updating effects with only a brief history combat history listed with absolutely no measures of time.

The Combat log is only good for seeing actual damage numbers not DPS, Damage per Second.

With storage of the Combat log one could use theory craft mathematics to calculate DPS but, it's not going to be as reliable as just having a target you could beat on that would measure Total damage done (say over 30/60/90seconds) then compute DPS for you in game.

The combat log is severely unreliable considering how situational damage can be and finding the perfect situation to test it in combat vs. A static beat down target.

which is why the older methods of DPS measuring in game did not use the logs they used static Bosses with measure able HP counts. ( The red named Gaint at the start of Epic Claw for instance)


I've been dabbling in a few games where it shows you DPS right in your Chariter sheet when you equip differnt gear it changes so you can easily maximize. That's without having to beat anything down at all.

[Archangel666]

In the following scenarios who gets the DPS?

Scenario 1:

Player 1: Monk stuns a mob.

Player 2: Hits the mob and deals 50% more damage.

Scenario 2:

Player 1: Wizzy Holds mobs.

Player 2: Hits the mobs and deals 50% more damage.


So who does this DPS Meter register as getting the DPS?

[Oxarhamar]

In the following scenarios who gets the DPS?

Scenario 1:

Player 1: Monk stuns a mob.

Player 2: Hits the mob and deals 50% more damage.

Scenario 2:

Player 1: Wizzy Holds mobs.

Player 2: Hits the mobs and deals 50% more damage.


So who does this DPS Meter register as getting the DPS?

A DPS meter would measure your own DPS not active DPS in combat while Questing thou it could if it were tied into Charicter sheet etc... Rather than just be a sack of HP to beat on that gives feedback.


In either senario you propose Player 2 would be doing DPS as a DPS meter wouldn't measure CC.

[LightBear]

In the following scenarios who gets the DPS?

Scenario 1:

Player 1: Monk stuns a mob.

Player 2: Hits the mob and deals 50% more damage.

Scenario 2:

Player 1: Wizzy Holds mobs.

Player 2: Hits the mobs and deals 50% more damage.


So who does this DPS Meter register as getting the DPS?

This, just two examples of the richness that I'm talking about.
Team up, be awesome together!

[MagicBlue]

In the following scenarios who gets the DPS?

Scenario 1:

Player 1: Monk stuns a mob.

Player 2: Hits the mob and deals 50% more damage.

Scenario 2:

Player 1: Wizzy Holds mobs.

Player 2: Hits the mobs and deals 50% more damage.


So who does this DPS Meter register as getting the DPS?

That is why DPS per se is not an absolute number. And is not so useful if not to do a hit-parade.
Even if i know that i deal X damage per second, it has no meaning in the reality of the combat.

As an examle, you can get X as general DPS (including criticals, tactical effects, etc.). That X can be very high, but against undead or construct is without meaning as it is against high fortified mobs.
Rogue's sneak attack can increase the DPS dramatically, but is not always applicable.

We keep telling that DPS is the main feature of this game, but really, it is not.

[Teh_Bugbear]

But Mr. Uber, we already have a healing meter, many defense meters, a Difficulty Class meter and three saving throw meters.

All we need now is a DPS and a prick meter, and I'm pretty sure your Rapiers score high in both!

Heck, some people even bother bragging about mindless XP farming for Past Lives.

Indeed, dps meter we need.

[Oxarhamar]

That is why DPS per se is not an absolute number. And is not so useful if not to do a hit-parade.
Even if i know that i deal X damage per second, it has no meaning in the reality of the combat.

As an examle, you can get X as general DPS (including criticals, tactical effects, etc.). That X can be very high, but against undead or construct is without meaning as it is against high fortified mobs.
Rogue's sneak attack can increase the DPS dramatically, but is not always applicable.

We keep telling that DPS is the main feature of this game, but really, it is not.

All those things are just situational factors to DPS.


Having a way to make DPS measurable would be a great tool for players to really know what they are doing with thier gear and builds, boosts rather than just the feel it gives them in quests.


Example:
player has choose of Damage Boost or Haste Boost.
Player wonders Is Damage Boost more DPS than Haste Boost for my build?
Player then
1) take Haste boost beat down the DPS meter get a result
2) take damage boost beat down DPS meter get result
3) Compare
4) take the boost that benifits the build the most.

[Teh_Bugbear]

All those things are just situational factors to DPS.


Having a way to make DPS measurable would be a great tool for players to really know what they are doing with thier gear and builds, boosts rather than just the feel it gives them in quests.


Example:
player has choose of Damage Boost or Haste Boost.
Player wonders Is Damage Boost more DPS than Haste Boost for my build?
Player then
1) take Haste boost beat down the DPS meter get a result
2) take damage boost beat down DPS meter get result
3) Compare
4) take the boost that benifits the build the most.

We need the same dps meter with the same mechanics similar to the one from world of warcraft.

[Singular]

It could just be a training dummy with higher hit points - or something you can click on when solo. I'm not sure why everyone is assuming the OP meant "in the XP report, at the end of quests."

[Singular]

As all logs do.
But inside the noise you can find what you want.
What should be really interesting is the ability to have the combat log saved on local system (every game session). With simple tools it can be checked with ease.

It would be nice if we could just click "off" to whatever information we didn't want to see. Mine often doesn't even go back to the event that I want to see, it fills up so fast.

[Teh_Bugbear]

It could just be a training dummy with higher hit points - or something you can click on when solo. I'm not sure why everyone is assuming the OP meant "in the XP report, at the end of quests."

DPS Meter should be attached to every member of the party while inside a quest. Thus noobs will actually learn how to improve in this game without being told so each time.

[Uska]

Worst thing to add ever!

[Archangel666]

All those things are just situational factors to DPS.


Having a way to make DPS measurable would be a great tool for players to really know what they are doing with thier gear and builds, boosts rather than just the feel it gives them in quests.


Example:
player has choose of Damage Boost or Haste Boost.
Player wonders Is Damage Boost more DPS than Haste Boost for my build?
Player then
1) take Haste boost beat down the DPS meter get a result
2) take damage boost beat down DPS meter get result
3) Compare
4) take the boost that benifits the build the most.

Which leads us right back to this problem:


Going to have to disagree with the idea of a DPS Meter. It would just lead to more exclusion for some players.

Some players rely on PuG's to get things done (poor buggers), and I can just see it now:

Player requests to join a PuG for some raid, and gets a tell "What's your DPS?"

Player responds "#####"

"Not high enough" Declined.


Anyone remember when MyDDO was up and running and people would actually check it when deciding on groups?

This would be the same thing, but worse, because it would stagnate the game.

If you can solve this problem, I'll support the DPS Meter all the way.

[MagicBlue]

DPS Meter should be attached to every member of the party while inside a quest.

You will have very different scores.
One quest X dps, another quest Y dps, and so on.

After 10 quests with different scores you do the average and have a near to real DPS score.

Is that that you wish?
Does it have a point?

I am not against it, but i really do not see the usefulness.

[Teh_Bugbear]

You will have very different scores.
One quest X dps, another quest Y dps, and so on.

After 10 quests with different scores you do the average and have a near to real DPS score.

Is that that you wish?
Does it have a point?

I am not against it, but i really do not see the usefulness.

I don't think it matters much, you can have someone doing X-min = (50-10)DPS or X-max = (50+10)DPS and you will notice pretty much that his dps sucks compared to that of others, contributing less and hence being a waste of time. So you are better off replacing said person with someone else dealing more dps.

[Archangel666]

I don't think it matters much, you can have someone doing X-min = (50-10)DPS or X-max = (50+10)DPS and you will notice pretty much that his dps sucks compared to that of others, contributing less and hence being a waste of time. So you are better off replacing said person with someone else dealing more dps.

And that is why a DPS Meter is a bad idea. (The example they were thinking of was Rogue against Undead vs Rogue against non-Fortified mobs btw).

In a game with a rapidly diminishing playerbase, does it need yet more ways to exclude people?

[Teh_Bugbear]

And that is why a DPS Meter is a bad idea. (The example they were thinking of was Rogue against Undead vs Rogue against non-Fortified mobs btw).

In a game with a rapidly diminishing playerbase, does it need yet more ways to exclude people?

I believe it will have the opposite effect.

[Wipey]

I would be happy with some sort of advanced Training dummies.
You could set hp and fortification, sneak attacks possibility or orange / rednamed "category" ( for helplessness or Mortal Fear possibility ).
Or maybe just few different versions to buy and place in new Tactical Training room. There are three or four dummies for no purpose.
For example 1 million hp, "red named" with 50 % fort. Oh and please if we could use "quest only" abilities ( such as Primal Scream ) in dummy area too.

I'd even spend shards on such amenities.
Wouldn't be much hard to implement, and it wouldn't cause any possible grief.

[Teh_Bugbear]

I would be happy with some sort of advanced Training dummies.
You could set hp and fortification, sneak attacks possibility or orange / rednamed "category" ( for helplessness or Mortal Fear possibility ).
Or maybe just few different versions to buy and place in new Tactical Training room. There are three or four dummies for no purpose.
For example 1 million hp, "red named" with 50 % fort. Oh and please if we could use "quest only" abilities ( such as Primal Scream ) in dummy area too.

I'd even spend shards on such amenities.
Wouldn't be much hard to implement, and it wouldn't cause any possible grief.

Dummies are lazy and boring. Not signed.

[Archangel666]

I believe it will have the opposite effect.

Could you expand on why you believe that?

I ask, because from all evidence I've seen in the last four years of playing, the playerbase tends to do exactly that. Think of when MyDDO was in use for example.

[Teh_Bugbear]

Could you expand on why you believe that?

I ask, because from all evidence I've seen in the last four years of playing, the playerbase tends to do exactly that. Think of when MyDDO was in use for example.

API was great. Why do you say that ?

[Archangel666]

API was great. Why do you say that ?

I have no problem with the API itself, but with the way that the playerbase (ab)used it.

It was fairly common at one point to apply to a group for something, there be a long pause while they looked up your character on MyDDO and declined or accepted on whether or not you'd logged out with your Haggle Item on instead of your CON Item.

[MagicBlue]

I don't think it matters much, you can have someone doing X-min = (50-10)DPS or X-max = (50+10)DPS and you will notice pretty much that his dps sucks compared to that of others, contributing less and hence being a waste of time. So you are better off replacing said person with someone else dealing more dps.

Oh my God.

[Azarddoze]

Going to have to disagree with the idea of a DPS Meter. It would just lead to more exclusion for some players.

Some players rely on PuG's to get things done (poor buggers), and I can just see it now:

Player requests to join a PuG for some raid, and gets a tell "What's your DPS?"

Player responds "#####"

"Not high enough" Declined.


Anyone remember when MyDDO was up and running and people would actually check it when deciding on groups?

This would be the same thing, but worse, because it would stagnate the game.

This almost only happens when a certain DPS is NEEDED in order to succeed or when weaker links aren't confident enought in their own success rate (and if it's the later, it's also comprehensible that they don't want even weaker links). In DDO, there aren't such things as quests or bosses that require a certain threshold of DPS since everyone can just kite and self heal anyways so I don't see this being a problem. And as people keep on repeating, this might be someone you didn't wanna be grouping with in the first place.

With all the bugs and not WAI stuff present in the game, it wouldn't be a bad idea to be able to compare different builds in order to reach maximum numbers (like boosts / hit rating / different weapons, etc.). I would also think that it could add even more longetivity to the game for some kind of players.

It sure ain't neccessary but it does have it's use. I don't see why people are against it as it can simply be ignored for those not interrested while it serves a purpose for the others. Not like if it's gonna get implanted anyways.

[Thayion516]

First, Damage Logs need Time Stamps attached to them. That should be easy.

Second, 2 Training Dummies with set HPs and No Fortification:
Lv 15 Training Dummy: 20,000 HPs
LV 25 Training Dummy: 80,000 HPs

Then you could simply look up the time you first hit and last hit(total time Seconds)/HPs = DPS

You peeps wanting a DPS meter should be more then happy to put in a little work to calculate your output over time. It may not be exactly accurate as DDO has too many combat variables, but it would give a good baseline to experiment and change builds on. Isn't that what a "Training Dummy" is meant for??

And for the record, being able to publicly see other peeps DPS and output is a terrible idea. Advanced Combat Tracker (ACT) and Parsec had a dramatic and irreversible effect on EQ2 and SWTOR, turning everything into a numbers race. In every MMO/Game I have ever played (which has been quite a few) a public DPS meter HAS/WILL become a measuring stick of other people's worth. And it ruins play styles and game enjoyment/immersion.

At best, it should be private info for those that want to check themselves. I personally wold probably use it to test out gear sets and enhancement choices like Singular was alluding to.

I would go for the Dummies, but not a full blown DPS meter.

[Azarddoze]

First, Damage Logs need Time Stamps attached to them. That should be easy.

Second, 2 Training Dummies with set HPs and No Fortification:
Lv 15 Training Dummy: 20,000 HPs
LV 25 Training Dummy: 80,000 HPs

Then you could simply look up the time you first hit and last hit(total time Seconds)/HPs = DPS

You peeps wanting a DPS meter should be more then happy to put in a little work to calculate your output over time. It may not be exactly accurate as DDO has too many combat variables, but it would give a good baseline to experiment and change builds on. Isn't that what a "Training Dummy" is meant for??

And for the record, being able to publicly see other peeps DPS and output is a terrible idea. Advanced Combat Tracker (ACT) and Parsec had a dramatic and irreversible effect on EQ2 and SWTOR, turning everything into a numbers race. In every MMO/Game I have ever played (which has been quite a few) a public DPS meter HAS/WILL become a measuring stick of other people's worth. And it ruins play styles and game enjoyment/immersion.

At best, it should be private info for those that want to check themselves. I personally wold probably use it to test out gear sets and enhancement choices like Singular was alluding to.

I would go for the Dummies, but not a full blown DPS meter.

If it ever happens, it should be for testing purpose IMO. No reason for it to be public to everyone in a game like DDO. Though being able to test different builds / whatever peacefully on your own (like on ship) is a very nice option.

So yeah, totally agree with you that this is the best idea... and it's already in the game to some extent.

[Uska]

This almost only happens when a certain DPS is NEEDED in order to succeed or when weaker links aren't confident enought in their own success rate (and if it's the later, it's also comprehensible that they don't want even weaker links). In DDO, there aren't such things as quests or bosses that require a certain threshold of DPS since everyone can just kite and self heal anyways so I don't see this being a problem. And as people keep on repeating, this might be someone you didn't wanna be grouping with in the first place.

With all the bugs and not WAI stuff present in the game, it wouldn't be a bad idea to be able to compare different builds in order to reach maximum numbers (like boosts / hit rating / different weapons, etc.). I would also think that it could add even more longetivity to the game for some kind of players.

It sure ain't neccessary but it does have it's use. I don't see why people are against it as it can simply be ignored for those not interrested while it serves a purpose for the others. Not like if it's gonna get implanted anyways.

Because it takes dev time to make something like this which isn't worth .00000000000001 nano-seconds of dev time

[Monkey-Boy]

Because This game isn't about dps at all.

There is so much richness that a dps meter would be a serious flaw.

Nonsense



Btw, just beat down a portal of you must measure anything. ????

This absolutely does work.

[Monkey-Boy]

I would be happy with some sort of advanced Training dummies.
You could set hp and fortification, sneak attacks possibility or orange / rednamed "category" ( for helplessness or Mortal Fear possibility ).
Or maybe just few different versions to buy and place in new Tactical Training room. There are three or four dummies for no purpose.
For example 1 million hp, "red named" with 50 % fort. Oh and please if we could use "quest only" abilities ( such as Primal Scream ) in dummy area too.

I'd even spend shards on such amenities.
Wouldn't be much hard to implement, and it wouldn't cause any possible grief.

That would be fine also.

[Monkey-Boy]

DPS Meter should be attached to every member of the party while inside a quest. Thus noobs will actually learn how to improve in this game without being told so each time.

Ignorance is bliss, if a light it shined upon gimpness for all to see maybe it'd help people build better toons.

Do it for the children.

[jalont]

No. Just no.

If you disagree then this is not the game you're looking for.

You're being shortsighted. Just imagine, you'd have a new tool to beat over the heads of pugs!

[jalont]

If you really use only dps as a measure of your skill in game, that tells me something about you as a player. Anybody can pick up a good build and use it with a little training, but taking a poor build and using it effectively is a real measure of skill in my opinion.

There is no such thing as player skill in DDO. There's only quest memorization. I'm not sure that's something that really needs to be measured.

[JOTMON]

I wouldn't mind a personal DPS Meter.

Something that would let me track min/max damage numbers and average over a period of time.
A stopwatch icon that I could click to start/finish or set timer.
Track vorpals/instakill data..
Crits/misses/ average crit damage/glancing blows..

More information is better...

probably difficult to assess dps to successful instakill effects, but anything that we can use to compare live activity data when making various tweak adjustments would be useful.

would also like to see Adding some different melee dummies.. living(kobold), undead, construct, evil outsider,... static HP stuff we can install to test on the boat would be nice..
Perhaps a ship dojo amenity room with interchangeable mobs.. where all player spells and buffs work.. like a pvp instance room that is a fully functional instance.

[jalont]

It's funny how some people oppose such an idea with the argument what other's think about your DPS.

DPS meter is to determine your own DPS and see how different things can increase/decrease your DPS and by how much. It would be an awesome tool for that.

Who cares about people that need it to compare p***s size with it.

Determining your DPS is possible but annoying. The only reliable way is with recording footage on a mob where you can see HP. Therefore it limits testing to those mobs only and there aren't even many rednamed/purplenamed for that and often enough they are annoying to get to solo.

...and combat log - please. Analyzing the combat log takes a load of work and is way out of reach for most peoples technical knowledge (footage of clearly readable combat log; OCR combat log; dumping to text; filtering important stuff of the text).

Exactly. A DPS meter would be a very nice inclusion. I can't stand the annoying ways to measure dps now, and so I don't do it, and everything I build revolves around "feel". I really don't like that and would love a proper tool.

[Teh_Bugbear]

http://i.imgur.com/cDWijWW.jpg

Make it like this, pretty please.

[Eth]

I would be happy with some sort of advanced Training dummies.
You could set hp and fortification, sneak attacks possibility or orange / rednamed "category" ( for helplessness or Mortal Fear possibility ).
Or maybe just few different versions to buy and place in new Tactical Training room. There are three or four dummies for no purpose.
For example 1 million hp, "red named" with 50 % fort. Oh and please if we could use "quest only" abilities ( such as Primal Scream ) in dummy area too.

I'd even spend shards on such amenities.
Wouldn't be much hard to implement, and it wouldn't cause any possible grief.

That's also a good idea, since this is something that could be so easily implemented.

[Monkey-Boy]

http://i.imgur.com/cDWijWW.jpg

Make it like this, pretty please.

This could be the greatest thing ever for building a community.

[Teh_Bugbear]

http://i.imgur.com/LzLkNZM.png

Also, this.

[Thayion516]

http://i.imgur.com/cDWijWW.jpg

Make it like this, pretty please.

Absolutely not. Public comparable DPS parses kill casual player bases. DDO does not need such a beatstick.

[Monkey-Boy]

Absolutely not. Public comparable DPS parses kill casual player bases. DDO does not need such a beatstick.

I disagree. It would give us vets better information as to how to aim our "constructive criticism."

it's not different than kill-count, just that actual damage scored is a better metric.

[Deadlock]

For you, you speak for nobody but you.

Uhuh. That's correct. We all speak for ourselves. That's how it works.


How do you know what it's like to be awesome at DDO?

I'll be judged by my peers, not banana throwers.


Very weak strawman, you can do better.

No strawman. Just because you don't have a reply, you don't need to try and cry strawman, you can just not reply and look smarter for it.


And yes, in the high end this game is nothing but about DPS. It's pretty awful but that's the sad reality of this overly simple game.

It's about so much more than that. You just need a bit of imagination to see it.

[Qhualor]

This could be the greatest thing ever for building a community.

Or most likely back to MyDDO days and /decline.

[Deadlock]

But Mr. Uber,

That's Captain Uber to you, peasant.

[Chai]

This almost only happens when a certain DPS is NEEDED in order to succeed or when weaker links aren't confident enought in their own success rate (and if it's the later, it's also comprehensible that they don't want even weaker links). In DDO, there aren't such things as quests or bosses that require a certain threshold of DPS since everyone can just kite and self heal anyways so I don't see this being a problem. And as people keep on repeating, this might be someone you didn't wanna be grouping with in the first place.

With all the bugs and not WAI stuff present in the game, it wouldn't be a bad idea to be able to compare different builds in order to reach maximum numbers (like boosts / hit rating / different weapons, etc.). I would also think that it could add even more longetivity to the game for some kind of players.

It sure ain't neccessary but it does have it's use. I don't see why people are against it as it can simply be ignored for those not interrested while it serves a purpose for the others. Not like if it's gonna get implanted anyways.

Its bad enough DDO tracks kill count openly, and we have seen enough posts where people try to use that as a measuring stick of contribution to understand what would happen if they put a public DPS meter in.

If people want to worry about that, they can put the DPS meter on the test dummy on airships or in a test dojo setting, where that's the only place it can be seen and used.

[Thayion516]

I disagree. It would give us vets better information as to how to aim our "constructive criticism."

it's not different than kill-count, just that actual damage scored is a better metric.

=Beatstick.

These people you are wanting to criticize do not want your help. Otherwise they would ask you for it. A Vet sure does not want your help as they have been playing their way (the right way) for a very long time.

The Dummy way would be the best. It provides personal feedback and that is all you need to know about.

That's my opinion over my almost 20 years of MMOs. I will not be changing it.

[Monkey-Boy]

=Beatstick.

These people you are wanting to criticize do not want your help. Otherwise they would ask you for it. A Vet sure does not want your help as they have been playing their way (the right way) for a very long time.


Whether or not they want out help they need it. Why deny them such vital assistance?

[MacRighteous]

a DPS meter wouldn't need any of that.

Just a bag of HP beat on it for X amount of time as hard as you can. Total damage dealt over time divided by number of seconds in the duration = DPS. Clean and simple.


Ummm... As I said, if you want more information than what is already available via your personal combat log then you have to hook up to the games memory stack and at least recount memory... that my friend, is where the trouble starts. I'm fairly certain Turbine has some sort of monitoring software like Warden that does not allow such connections.

[Teh_Bugbear]

You guys seem to think that it is the responsibility of us veterans to get the noobs through EE content so they can loot all the shinies with us ending up with lootgen only. Sorry but that is not how it works, if you can't put out enough dps on your own to help contribute to the group as a whole then you aren't worth spending a spot on.

A dps meter will help fix this issue.

[Monkey-Boy]

You guys seem to think that it is the responsibility of us veterans to get the noobs through EE content so they can loot all the shinies with us ending up with lootgen only. Sorry but that is not how it works, if you can't put out enough dps on your own to help contribute to the group as a whole then you aren't worth spending a spot on.

A dps meter will help fix this issue.

There's no need to be such an elitist.

[Teh_Bugbear]

There's no need to be such an elitist.

You flatter me.

[SirValentine]

It was fairly common at one point to apply to a group for something, there be a long pause while they looked up your character on MyDDO and declined or accepted on whether or not you'd logged out with your Haggle Item on instead of your CON Item.


It was fairly common...but only for certain tough content.

Before all the Epic Destinies, and massive enhancement power creep, when there was quite a few things that were NOT easy, or guaranteed, even with a really good group. When the difference between a well-built and well-geared character versus the opposite would make a real difference on the odds of a successful completion or not. Few people (anybody?) bothered with MyDDO for easy stuff.

What's that hard now, that people will care? 3 raids on EE maybe, and that's about it?

[Grailhawk]

DPS Meter would be a very useful tool regardless of the from it takes.

[Vint]

Hi, I don t think that a dps meter is a bad idea, but it's true that being awesome in ddo is not only "have an high dps".

My PDK Pure Bard spellsinger is an example. 110-130 base damage in dps is not so high in comparison with other builds (swashbuckler version or others) but my Enchantment DC is like 75-76 so... maybe i wont be the top killer in the dungeon, but with my help quite all EE quests are very very very easy...

Greetings

Marco

A good player already knows that the “dedicated healer” or the CC arcane or the fascinating bard will probably not lead the kill count (we are talking of normal players here).

A good player knows how to mitigate damage and they invest in saves, PRR/MRR, heal amp, fort, and many other things that will make their toon survivable.

A good player knows how to use trip, SF, stunning blow, diplomacy, intimidate, know agro management, etc. etc. A bad player will just auto attack and red alert a dungeon without a clue of why they keep dying.

A good player does not need a DPS meter to know he is good. It is easily obvious who is a good or bad player within minutes of being in a dungeon.

I would not object to the meter, but I would rather them spend time reducing lag of getting around to the “quality of life fixes” that we have been hearing of.

[MagicBlue]

Whether or not they want out help they need it. Why deny them such vital assistance?

For sure you can propose your help and who wants can have it.
But you cannot decide what other people need or wish. You do not have any right on it.

Comparisons takes only to discrimination.
Such a thing i can see at least inside a guild. But not out of its walls.

[Monkey-Boy]

I would not object to the meter, but I would rather them spend time reducing lag of getting around to the “quality of life fixes” that we have been hearing of.

This. it's honestly not a big deal not having it.

How about a better dummy?

[Monkey-Boy]

For sure you can propose your help and who wants can have it.
But you cannot decide what other people need or wish. You do not have any right on it.

Comparisons takes only to discrimination.
Such a thing i can see at least inside a guild. But not out of its walls.

Why must you insist on oppressing people?

Remember back before HP showed to everyone? Notice how now almost all have more HP relative to the level inflation? You don't know something's an issue without comparative data, it makes us all better.

Now people us kill-count, that's not an accurate set of comparative data. Total damage done is a better metric.

[Teh_Bugbear]

For sure you can propose your help and who wants can have it.
But you cannot decide what other people need or wish. You do not have any right on it.

Comparisons takes only to discrimination.
Such a thing i can see at least inside a guild. But not out of its walls.

This is the reason why the population is so underwhelming. If the game itself keeps getting boring, then there will be less and less peopel playing this game. A dps meter will help make it less boring.

[Oxarhamar]

Worst thing to add ever!

Worst than Firgotten Realms & Dragon born?

[Oxarhamar]

You will have very different scores.
One quest X dps, another quest Y dps, and so on.

After 10 quests with different scores you do the average and have a near to real DPS score.

Is that that you wish?
Does it have a point?

I am not against it, but i really do not see the usefulness.

The usefulness would be in knowing how much swapping items, enhancements, etc... Actually effected your damage output.

[deuxanes]

Signed. A DPS meter would be as accurate as for example the body-mass-index.

,-)

[Uska]

You guys seem to think that it is the responsibility of us veterans to get the noobs through EE content so they can loot all the shinies with us ending up with lootgen only. Sorry but that is not how it works, if you can't put out enough dps on your own to help contribute to the group as a whole then you aren't worth spending a spot on.

A dps meter will help fix this issue.

No it wont it will just give elitists another tool to brag and to put others down with its unneeded and unwanted but by a few not worth the time to develop

[Uska]

This is the reason why the population is so underwhelming. If the game itself keeps getting boring, then there will be less and less peopel playing this game. A dps meter will help make it less boring.

NO it wont there is absolutely nothing interesting about any meter

[Uska]

Worst than Firgotten Realms & Dragon born?

Yup by a huge magnitude, I don't have to play the realms content and dragonborning can be ignored and not grouped with if they are ever dumb enough to add them to the game.

[Monkey-Boy]

NO it wont there is absolutely nothing interesting about any meter

Fine, we'll just continue to use kill count to judge people if that makes you happy.

[Uska]

Fine, we'll just continue to use kill count to judge people if that makes you happy.

I have said since the beginning kill count means nothing and should be changed to just total kills and not broken down into who killed what since it isn't an accurate measure by any means.

minor tidbit one of my nicknames is Monkeyman so I guess that's kind of weird

[Thayion516]

Fine, we'll just continue to use kill count to judge people if that makes you happy.

I dont understand WHY must we judge people in the first place? .. Judge=place in order=one is better then something else=tiered players. Why would I want to do this??

And the kill count means nothing.

[TPICKRELL]

Yes please.

I'd like it for my personal use. I don't care what anyone else's number is.

It would be very useful to answer questions like does this strike+cooldown increase my DPS enough to justify the cost. Does YYY feature work with my weapons (applies to unarmed mostly). How does my DPS vary between lives/builds?

If there is any risk of game lag being increased by this, then restrict it to a training dojo/ship/ as long as it provides a variety of targets... I'd even be happy if it were a lammania only thing, as long as they would agree to leave lammania up and running between test builds of the game.

[Teh_Bugbear]

I have said since the beginning kill count means nothing and should be changed to just total kills and not broken down into who killed what since it isn't an accurate measure by any means.

minor tidbit one of my nicknames is Monkeyman so I guess that's kind of weird

So why are you against implementing a dps meter even though it is much more accurate then ? You know, something tells me that this game is dying because peopel like you make it basically impossible to have them introduce new things, thus resulting in less peopel even bothering with this game. At the moment it just feels like a tomb with a couple dead bodies inside rotting away.

[Monkey-Boy]

. . . because at the moment it just feels like a tomb with a couple dead bodies inside rotting away.


For a second there I thought you were talking about the pit in my basement.

[casusbelli15]

Isn't the long established method of determining DPS to measure the time taken to reduce either Sobrien @ 69K HP
or the portal in Aussircaex's valley @ 12K HP to zero.
as described here:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/300873-DPS-Challenge-Part2

[Uska]

So why are you against implementing a dps meter even though it is much more accurate then ? You know, something tells me that this game is dying because peopel like you make it basically impossible to have them introduce new things, thus resulting in less peopel even bothering with this game, at the moment it just feels like a tomb with a couple dead bodies inside rotting away.

A DPS meter wont do a thing to prolong this game at all its adds nothing positive to the game and wastes time better spent on content or bug fixes

I don't care about accuracy I don't want to know how much damage people are doing or who killed what, as I said kill count shouldn't say who killed what only how many died .

It funny when new people come and say the game could be better when its been good enough for some for over 8 years without such useless items.

[Krelar]

Isn't the long established method of determining DPS to measure the time taken to reduce either Sobrien @ 69K HP
or the portal in Aussircaex's valley @ 12K HP to zero.
as described here:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/300873-DPS-Challenge-Part2

The problem is those are not nearly high enough HP for today's Epic characters. When the mob goes down in under 20 seconds it's really hard to tell if something made a significant difference or not.

[Teh_Bugbear]

A DPS meter wont do a thing to prolong this game at all its adds nothing positive to the game and wastes time better spent on content or bug fixes

I care little about what you think is right, the majority thinks otherwise.

[Uska]

I care little about what you think is right, the majority thinks otherwise.

and you can prove this how? You can I can say the Majority says we don't want or need and you cant prove me wrong EVER!

[Teh_Bugbear]

and you can prove this how? You can I can say the Majority says we don't want or need and you cant prove me wrong EVER!

You need to stop ignoring all those comments above. DDO needs some serious help before they end up shutting it down. For example improving the graphics beyond oldtimer and introduce new things like dps meter and so on. Too be honest sometimes i feel like a old gramp when playing ddo and looking at the *still* creepy graphics it has while other games are far beyond that. DDO can do better than this. Stop having them shut down the game and start encouraging them and not behave like a selfish person.

[deuxanes]

Ignorance is bliss, if a light it shined upon gimpness for all to see maybe it'd help people build better toons.

Do it for the children.

Are we talking about DPS or optimizing a toon?

A perfectionist would maybe strive to improve his/her DPS no matter the costs.

An optimizer would contemplate the time required to get better gear and then decide which will be attainable with a moderate investment of time.

If someone wants to calculate the theroretical DPS he/she just has to crunch the known formulas. Write a program to create a long sequence of randomly generated numbers. Since the formulas are based on multiple dice rolls there will be a certain spread to results/sums. And there will be different probabilities for each result/sum. Take those numbers and visualize them according to whichever questions you have. The biggest pro of this approach would be the increase of one's math skills.

[Monkey-Boy]

Are we talking about DPS or optimizing a toon?



Yes.

[Oxarhamar]

Ummm... As I said, if you want more information than what is already available via your personal combat log then you have to hook up to the games memory stack and at least recount memory... that my friend, is where the trouble starts. I'm fairly certain Turbine has some sort of monitoring software like Warden that does not allow such connections.

Which is why an in game meter that just tracked Damage done over a measured amount of time then divided it and gave you a feedback number would be simplest.


combat log is loaded with nonsence that is unrelated to DPS. even if you could export & record the combat log you'd have to filter through an obscene amount of combat info that's not damage to calculate it.

As Singular already stated I can get hit that I want to examine in the combat log immediately stop engaging targets and attempt to find the number as the log continues to scroll buffs and effects

log is super Brief when One hit includes

you Roll x
You hit
You deal (base damage)
You deal (additional damage)X (however many added effects are on your weapon, enhancements, ED, Gear etc...

My log might only contain 3 or 4 attacks in the viewable portion given I deal a lot more than just bases numbers on a single attack (maybe 30 lines of combat log for a single attack)

[Teh_Bugbear]

Are we talking about DPS or optimizing a toon?

A perfectionist would maybe strive to improve his/her DPS no matter the costs.

An optimizer would contemplate the time required to get better gear and then decide which will be attainable with a moderate investment of time.

If someone wants to calculate the theroretical DPS he/she just has to crunch the known formulas. Write a program to create a long sequence of randomly generated numbers. Since the formulas are based on multiple dice rolls there will be a certain spread to results/sums. And there will be different probabilities for each result/sum. Take those numbers and visualize them according to whichever questions you have. The biggest pro of this approach would be the increase of one's math skills.

Math in ddo is much more complicated than you think. We are talking base damage dice, critical threat range and multiplier + dot and much other things affecting your dps output which at the same time are all situational dependant.

[jalont]

Absolutely not. Public comparable DPS parses kill casual player bases. DDO does not need such a beatstick.

DDO isn't in danger of killing the casual player base. The entire design of the game has been geared towards them for a long time now. DDO is in danger of losing its power gamer player base.

[Singular]

I don't think it matters much, you can have someone doing X-min = (50-10)DPS or X-max = (50+10)DPS and you will notice pretty much that his dps sucks compared to that of others, contributing less and hence being a waste of time. So you are better off replacing said person with someone else dealing more dps.

We also have support builds. If meters for "amount of healing cast" and "spell points spent on party buffs" etc., we also taken into play, it might be interesting.

Anyways, you don't need a dps meter to know when you're dragging some gimp along. If they die a lot, especially in the first few seconds of combat, can't raise others and can't contribute overall, those are some pretty big hints.

Last, the phylacteries in Deathwym work as a pretty good burst dps meter when parties send players in one by one. The toons who take the longest produce the least dps or have the greatest troubles dealing with the shadows.

[TempestAlphaOmega]

I read the first page a few comments after that. Nothing unexpected in the range of response or reasoning presented on all sides of the request.

I admit I am a numbers guy. I really don't care that much about other people's numbers but I like to see my own. I am that guy in PnP who has a notebook for each toon because a front and back printed letter size piece of paper is no where near enough space to record everything.

I want DDO to drastically expand on the current information provided to players.

So do I want a DPS meter? Sure, I want a training dummy that I can hit with everything and anything under the sun, that allows me to set the time period I will be damageing it for and to allow me to adjust some basic setting of the dummy (fort, race type, ac, dodge, defensive effects).

I know I won't get it, but I want what I want and I would take any part of that the DEVs would give me.

I don't need it for my (or anyone elses) epeen, bragging rights or other displays. I just like to see for myself how things interact with each other in a semi real situation.

Thanks

[Oliphant]

That game has moved away from real role playing to just full out cookie cutter dps-only (not saying there's only one way to dps build but a dps build is just a dps build). I would much prefer they spend time adding other stats to the XP panel like identifying how many healing points each toon provided to other toons and how much monster-time was neutralized by each player using crowd control effects. Furthermore, I'd like to see more info on combat stats other than just who got the most kill shots; for example, effective damage, which is the total damage minus overkill damage players deal (this would be better than nothing for those that want a meter).

On whether a majority would support this, I hope folks are not trying to use this thread to gauge that. Obviously people with enthusiasm for the idea are likely to chime in but let's not assume people without enthusiasm will participate in raining on the parade at the same rate; those folks tend to just not comment.

[SiliconScout]

You need to stop ignoring all those comments above. DDO needs some serious help before they end up shutting it down. For example improving the graphics beyond oldtimer and introduce new things like dps meter and so on. Too be honest sometimes i feel like a old gramp when playing ddo and looking at the *still* creepy graphics it has while other games are far beyond that. DDO can do better than this. Stop having them shut down the game and start encouraging them and not behave like a selfish person.

Well THIS is the comment that got me involved with this one I guess.

Just because 2 or 3 very vocal people are posting a LOT about it and only a few are opposing proves nothing as to it being a majority of support. Given the number of accounts registerd it , in fact, more strongly supports that there is likely a silent majority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_majority) that oppose or are at least indifferent to this idea.

That, by it's very nature, would mean that the proponents of a DPS meter are, in fact, a vocal minority.

For the record, since I am posting here, I would vote no to this as it lends itself far to closely to a griefing / ostracizing tool. Granted HP went up across the board when people could see them but in a lot of cases that meant quests took longer to do as players traded off options that increased utility and effectiveness to get that number up to a point where they wouldn't get auto-kicked. In my, admittedly anecdotal, experience making this number visible had a counter-intuitive effect of making the groups less effective. Content was becoming "too hard" and players needed "more power" to overcome the challenges so we got more and more powerful abilities and EPIC destinies to correct this.

If dps were made a visible number then I think you would see a mirror effect where instead of trading effectiveness for HP players would be forced to trade survivability for DPS. In fact I would not be surprised to see more wipes / difficult completions.

Think about it, I can't measure the "DPS" of my CC wizard because frankly he's not generating any, he's boosting the groups though, so if I find myself being booted because my "Dps" number is "low" then I will be trading my CC in for straight damage spells. I then get to stay in because I have a big enough number but suddenly the group is having a LOT more difficulty with the mobs and taking more as a whole.

How do you measure the DPS of my insta-kill PM or my FvS / Cleric that's landing no fail implosions wielding a couple of casting sticks?

It's impossible to reduce combat effectiveness to a single number in DDO, it's not that kind of game. It never has been and I hope it never will be because that is the niche that is keeping this game alive.

If and that's a big IF this were to be implemented then it should be something that is private to the player. At least then those who play utility toons can just lie about the number to stay in the group and help them get that completion.

If this is about weeding out bad players, run one or two quests with them. You will learn a lot more about their usefulness from that then you ever will from any number the system will provide you.

[Hafeal]

What should be really interesting is the ability to have the combat log saved on local system (every game session). With simple tools it can be checked with ease.

While I can see value here, I would like a printable character sheet first. How this wasn't included in the game from the beginning is a glaring lack of vision.

The reality though, is even a personal dps meter would end up in screen shots and barked about on the forums in a less than productive manner. A few bad apples spoil the goodness for everyone else for the sake of gloating and puffing the epeen. See this thread for examples.
-----


And for the record, being able to publicly see other peeps DPS and output is a terrible idea. Advanced Combat Tracker (ACT) and Parsec had a dramatic and irreversible effect on EQ2 and SWTOR, turning everything into a numbers race. In every MMO/Game I have ever played (which has been quite a few) a public DPS meter HAS/WILL become a measuring stick of other people's worth. And it ruins play styles and game enjoyment/immersion.



A good player does not need a DPS meter to know he is good. It is easily obvious who is a good or bad player within minutes of being in a dungeon.


Both of you, dead on, well said.



This could be the greatest thing ever for building a community.


I care little about what you think is right, the majority thinks otherwise.

I'll give both of you this - TeH Troll is strong within you.


-------------



DDO isn't in danger of killing the casual player base. The entire design of the game has been geared towards them for a long time now. DDO is in danger of losing its power gamer player base.

DDO isn't in danger of killing the casual player base because they annihilated it long ago. Efforts to make the game more approachable (i.e., "making the game easier") was an effort to draw them back in and get them to stay. This game has catered to power gamers for years - and according to the Doomsayers DDO is *this* close to shutting down - apparently this focus on ye old power gamer crowd hasn't helped DDO be the robust MMO it should be.

[Chai]

Now people us kill-count, that's not an accurate set of comparative data. Total damage done is a better metric.

And would need to be measured correctly if real contribution is to be measured.

If an artificer buffed you with deadly, the extra damage should go on their meter, not yours.

If a wizard mass holds mobs, 1.0x of that 1.5 damage is yours and .5 of it is theirs. The stuff you had to pay to get enhancements for which jacks this up should be cut in half and half given to each, because you took the enhancement which jacks up your helpless damage, but if it wasn't CC'd in the first place that added damage wouldn't exist.

Same as above if your melee stuns a mob and everyone else attacks it - the modified damage on top of what they normally do is your damage on the meter.

If a bard buffs you with +7/+7 song, that part of your damage should be on their meter, not yours.

[Oxarhamar]

Well THIS is the comment that got me involved with this one I guess.

Just because 2 or 3 very vocal people are posting a LOT about it and only a few are opposing proves nothing as to it being a majority of support. Given the number of accounts registerd it , in fact, more strongly supports that there is likely a silent majority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_majority) that oppose or are at least indifferent to this idea.

That, by it's very nature, would mean that the proponents of a DPS meter are, in fact, a vocal minority.

For the record, since I am posting here, I would vote no to this as it lends itself far to closely to a griefing / ostracizing tool. Granted HP went up across the board when people could see them but in a lot of cases that meant quests took longer to do as players traded off options that increased utility and effectiveness to get that number up to a point where they wouldn't get auto-kicked. In my, admittedly anecdotal, experience making this number visible had a counter-intuitive effect of making the groups less effective. Content was becoming "too hard" and players needed "more power" to overcome the challenges so we got more and more powerful abilities and EPIC destinies to correct this.

If dps were made a visible number then I think you would see a mirror effect where instead of trading effectiveness for HP players would be forced to trade survivability for DPS. In fact I would not be surprised to see more wipes / difficult completions.

Think about it, I can't measure the "DPS" of my CC wizard because frankly he's not generating any, he's boosting the groups though, so if I find myself being booted because my "Dps" number is "low" then I will be trading my CC in for straight damage spells. I then get to stay in because I have a big enough number but suddenly the group is having a LOT more difficulty with the mobs and taking more as a whole.

How do you measure the DPS of my insta-kill PM or my FvS / Cleric that's landing no fail implosions wielding a couple of casting sticks?

It's impossible to reduce combat effectiveness to a single number in DDO, it's not that kind of game. It never has been and I hope it never will be because that is the niche that is keeping this game alive.

If and that's a big IF this were to be implemented then it should be something that is private to the player. At least then those who play utility toons can just lie about the number to stay in the group and help them get that completion.

If this is about weeding out bad players, run one or two quests with them. You will learn a lot more about their usefulness from that then you ever will from any number the system will provide you.

your points on the silent majority are a bit skewed.

No one will ever know weather the silent majority agrees or disagrees with a concept since they do not voice thier opinion.

The entirety of the forum is just the vocal minority given that the majority of players play but, never post.

[psykopeta]

devs should spend 0 time in whatever doesn't help a real majority in game

so, stuff like dps meter, pvp and whatever suggestion could be done in that way, my answer is simple: that's not wow, next thing should be a gearscore to know if that lvl 28 toon is wearing common gear or focused with his/her build (sounds like that means anything of use, the amount of dps u do is useless, like it's commonly said and know, when u are dead ur dps is 0)

dps meter would only help to kill more builds and gear, cause they would be proven less damaging than others, meanwhile players keep using feats and enhancements that don't work, spreading the customization

oh true, don't use power gamer and dps in the same sentence, looks like a bad joke, dps stops meaning anything at EH diff

[Monkey-Boy]

And would need to be measured correctly if real contribution is to be measured.

If an artificer buffed you with deadly, the extra damage should go on their meter, not yours.

If a wizard mass holds mobs, 1.0x of that 1.5 damage is yours and .5 of it is theirs. The stuff you had to pay to get enhancements for which jacks this up should be cut in half and half given to each, because you took the enhancement which jacks up your helpless damage, but if it wasn't CC'd in the first place that added damage wouldn't exist.

Same as above if your melee stuns a mob and everyone else attacks it - the modified damage on top of what they normally do is your damage on the meter.

If a bard buffs you with +7/+7 song, that part of your damage should be on their meter, not yours.

People still buff?

[JOTMON]

Are we talking about DPS or optimizing a toon?

A perfectionist would maybe strive to improve his/her DPS no matter the costs.

An optimizer would contemplate the time required to get better gear and then decide which will be attainable with a moderate investment of time.

If someone wants to calculate the theroretical DPS he/she just has to crunch the known formulas. Write a program to create a long sequence of randomly generated numbers. Since the formulas are based on multiple dice rolls there will be a certain spread to results/sums. And there will be different probabilities for each result/sum. Take those numbers and visualize them according to whichever questions you have. The biggest pro of this approach would be the increase of one's math skills.

if only it were that simple.
It never works the way you indicate.
Simple calculations based on text information are not accurate.
Theoretical damage does not translate well into real play dps based on each individuals playstyle, ability to co-ordinate clickies, self heals...


Things like stopping to cast tensers, drinking pots, various animations, the clickie says its a 30 second buff.. but is it 30 or is it 27 seconds..
Does this buff stack with that buff correctly, is the doublestrike stacking the way it says it does...
stopping to self heal, recast short term buffs, switch stances, use clickies, hotbar goodies, swap weapons, swap gear.
is the glancing blow damage better than doublestrike... wher eis the break point on which you should invest more into based on your playstyle.

all these factors and more impact dps.

Many things don't work the way we may think it works, or even as it says it works.

The only real way to measure it is to take all these factors into a damage tracking system and average results over a defined period of time.

timing how long it takes to knock down the ship dummy is sloppy at best.
selecting a mob in a quest and trying to sync your timer while attacking it...kind of works.. but.. meh...

[Monkey-Boy]

Going to have to disagree with the idea of a DPS Meter. It would just lead to more exclusion for some players.

Some players rely on PuG's to get things done (poor buggers), and I can just see it now:

Player requests to join a PuG for some raid, and gets a tell "What's your DPS?"

Player responds "#####"

"Not high enough" Declined.



This is nature working as intended, are you against evolution?

[Teh_Bugbear]

Going to have to disagree with the idea of a DPS Meter. It would just lead to more exclusion for some players.

Some players rely on PuG's to get things done (poor buggers), and I can just see it now:

Player requests to join a PuG for some raid, and gets a tell "What's your DPS?"

Player responds "#####"

"Not high enough" Declined.


Anyone remember when MyDDO was up and running and people would actually check it when deciding on groups?

This would be the same thing, but worse, because it would stagnate the game.

How else should one learn to improve himself ?

[Lonnbeimnech]

if only it were that simple.
It never works the way you indicate.
Simple calculations based on text information are not accurate.
Theoretical damage does not translate well into real play dps based on each individuals playstyle, ability to co-ordinate clickies, self heals...


Things like stopping to cast tensers, drinking pots, various animations, the clickie says its a 30 second buff.. but is it 30 or is it 27 seconds..
Does this buff stack with that buff correctly, is the doublestrike stacking the way it says it does...
stopping to self heal, recast short term buffs, switch stances, use clickies, hotbar goodies, swap weapons, swap gear.
is the glancing blow damage better than doublestrike... wher eis the break point on which you should invest more into based on your playstyle.

all these factors and more impact dps.

Many things don't work the way we may think it works, or even as it says it works.

The only real way to measure it is to take all these factors into a damage tracking system and average results over a defined period of time.

timing how long it takes to knock down the ship dummy is sloppy at best.
selecting a mob in a quest and trying to sync your timer while attacking it...kind of works.. but.. meh...
And things like, attacking one high hp mob to get an average dsp would not include things like killer (a stacking 5% double strike) or (fatal harrier).

Things like litII doing 700 damage every now and then will do 1 of 2 things 99% of the time (assuming its not still being used in EE), 1. not proc 2. overkill. So it doesn't add what the numbers say.

Even things like movement rate can drastically change your dps, like when fighting a mob that keeps running away and casting spells, if he can outrun you, you do no damage til he stops moving.

If this game was a turn based game with mostly stationary supper high hp mobs, it would be more useful.

[Chai]

People still buff?

If they don't I don't want to ever hear any arguments out of those who refuse to about what makes completions faster or where the higher xp per minute is, as that would be a direct contradiction in logic.

[Lonnbeimnech]

If they don't I don't want to ever hear any arguments out of those who refuse to about what makes completions faster or where the higher xp per minute is, as that would be a direct contradiction in logic.

Invis and sprint boost aren't exactly buffs tho.

[SiliconScout]

your points on the silent majority are a bit skewed.

No one will ever know weather the silent majority agrees or disagrees with a concept since they do not voice thier opinion.

The entirety of the forum is just the vocal minority given that the majority of players play but, never post.

I don't disagree, that said however of those who post here AND still play the game it is more likely they are remaining silent and disagreeing / not caring than it is that they agree.

History on the board has shown that people are more likely to post in agreement than disagreement as they are not wanting to spend their time in what is most likely an endless binary debate.

I believe that my statement of a silent majority of posters not agreeing / not caring is more likely to be correct than their assertion that because a couple of very vocal posters are posting it equates majority support.

[TeacherSyn]

In none of the comments in this thread to-date did I see anyone caring about one very important factor:


Game lag.

Heck, DDO has been reoptimized so that it won't update your monster manual viewable data until logout due to performance issues. And now you want an immediate, interactive DPS gauge that must sum up every single damage type you can do? And, then, perform this coding function to everyone on the server?

Remember Mabar, folks? You should. Eternity the dragon kept true to its name and put many of us and the server into a near-timeless lag because of coding functions. That's why its current code has been given a good Sovereign Host burial for now.

A live-action DPS meter may create your own personal Mabar-lag generator. That is, you, and several thousand others on the same server.

I also agree that DPS meters are simply player-whizzing contests. DDO should not work as other MMOs. No, thank you.

But I like the idea of coding the Training Dummy as an individual DPS meter. Its code would be at the guild instance. It could be set up to provide very detailed information. Most importantly, the meter would be coded into the dummy and not in very player character avatar, which would save on server cycles so none of us lag because of it. Someone mentioned this idea, and it's not a bad one.

If you need to know your DPS while in a quest, you're looking for something else other than your attack performance. You're just trying to perform for other players. No one cares.

If you're tweaking while out of a quest to check damage particulars, it's a good idea. I wouldn't mind a dummy that tells me this information.

[relenttless]

Nonsense.

And this isn't about player skill, it's about measuring something that is tangible. Why would you not want to do that?

Lol.... You have sort of answered your own question, and its patently obvious that you will never understand the answer.

[Oxarhamar]

I don't disagree, that said however of those who post here AND still play the game it is more likely they are remaining silent and disagreeing / not caring than it is that they agree.

History on the board has shown that people are more likely to post in agreement than disagreement as they are not wanting to spend their time in what is most likely an endless binary debate.

I believe that my statement of a silent majority of posters not agreeing / not caring is more likely to be correct than their assertion that because a couple of very vocal posters are posting it equates majority support.

I think it depends on the topic I've seen the forum pour on the disapproval on certain ideas but, I do see your view point.

Think it's say to say we can't really determine weather they are for or against.

we know with Turbine it's the vocal minority they tend to listen too, sometimes listening to the squeaky wheel over the rest of the player base.

A prime example there was the Proposed new Augments in The most recent Crystal Cove being scraped completely thanks to a few individuals who commented that they rather have updated gear than new augments. When the new gear was introduced the first thing players asked was "what happened to the augments" realistically we should have had both new augs and updated gear.

the few can ruin it for the many more often than not.

[bennyson]

DDO does not need a DPS meter

You want to know how much damage your doing?

Look at the Combat log, look at monster HP when you can see it, look at the numbers fly up when you hit something. Do some freaking math.

Seriously, a DPS meter is as worthless as an un-enchanted stick with a -1 to attack and damage rolls.

This would be a UI mod or something, but hey, that kind of customization in DDO has been a dead horse since U14.

[Teh_Bugbear]

DDO does not need a DPS meter

You want to know how much damage your doing?

Look at the Combat log, look at monster HP when you can see it, look at the numbers fly up when you hit something. Do some freaking math.

Seriously, a DPS meter is as worthless as an un-enchanted stick with a -1 to attack and damage rolls.

This would be a UI mod or something, but hey, that kind of customization in DDO has been a dead horse since U14.

What's the deal ? Why so mad ?

[Archangel666]

People still buff?

Of course they still buff. I see it all the time.

Oh, you meant they don't buff you, didn't you? Erm....Might want to ask yourself why...

[bennyson]

What's the deal ? Why so mad ?

Because a meter to tell you how much dps your doing is as silly as poking yourself with a stick.

[bennyson]

People still buff?

Of course they still buff, oh wait, you never group, never mind.

[Teh_Bugbear]

Because a meter to tell you how much dps your doing is as silly as poking yourself with a stick.

Why ?

[bennyson]

Why ?

If you know what 2 + 2 equals then you don't need a meter.

That's why am against such a silly idea.

[Gremmlynn]

Ignorance is blissYes it is. If it were my game, I can't think one one good reason why I would want to add something that, more likely than not, just gives players something to be disappointed about. IMO happily ignorant customers > disapointedly informed when it comes to their own "worth".

Frankly I surprised at how many here can't simply tell if their is enough difference to matter simply by playing with the various options.

[Teh_Bugbear]

If you know what 2 + 2 equals then you don't need a meter.

That's why am against such a silly idea.

Alright :rolleyes:

[Gremmlynn]

If people want to worry about that, they can put the DPS meter on the test dummy on airships or in a test dojo setting, where that's the only place it can be seen and used.I wouldn't even do that as it would add "baselines" based on generally unrealistic conditions for most players to compare themselves to soon after implementation.

[Angelic-council]

Whatever happened to personal housing that producer promised us. Wasn't? they can add something called DPS meter to it.

[schelsullivan]

The combat log is not a great tool. You can't force some data to go unrevealed - you can't ignore stuff that isn't interesting to you. So you have to slog through so much noise to actually read what you're looking for.

^this

If the combat log could be filtered and logged to a file (to where the screenshots go) that would be sufficient (and cool).

[Gremmlynn]

How else should one learn to improve himself ?Well, wasting less time playing video games would probably be a good start. So I question your goal here.

[Monkey-Boy]

Well, wasting less time playing video games would probably be a good start. So I question your goal here.

We lack the power to help people who are terrible at life, but we can help them no be terrible at DDO. Why are you hating on them so much and want to keep them oppressed?

[bennyson]

Well, wasting less time playing video games would probably be a good start. So I question your goal here.

Holy Moly Batman!

I have some small general respect for those who started the same year as me or lower, but this sentence...

Your behavior is unacceptable.

[Gremmlynn]

Holy Moly Batman!

I have some small general respect for those who started the same year as me or lower, but this sentence...

Your behavior is unacceptable.Then report it if you feel it somehow violates the rules of this forum. If not then it in no way is unacceptable.

Personally I have an issue every time someone thinks that others need help being good at having fun playing video games, but most of them just don't know it.

How good any person is at playing video games is so unimportant as to be a joke to even seriously bring up.

I'm sorry a differing perspective on the issue bothers you, but that's life.

[Tobril]

It would be nice to have some sort of tool to measure DPS.

Currently there are no monsters I know of that are convenient
to travel to that have sufficient HP for proper testing.


The best I’ve found is EE Sobrian, who is killable well within a
single boost duration, even faster if made helpless!


Going “by feel” can be deceptive. I thought picks were doing
better for my swashbuckler than rapiers. Testing against
Sobrian showed that rapiers were slightly ahead, though it
was difficult to tell seeing as that monster has so few HP.



One solution that probably wouldn’t be too hard would be a
new training dummy.

Even better would be a dummy that can have fortification, type,
HP total, alignment, AC, aggro, etc adjusted…that would be sweet!


As for the grouping issues…people already look at kill counts
and other factors.

Consider these kill counts:


Hard to tell if there is a DPS difference
Bob 17
Greg 27
Wayne 23


Probably something different
Bob 12
Greg 134
Wayne 17


I’m not really convinced that a public DPS meter would change
grouping norms much more than the current impact of kill count,
number of deaths, getting lost, etc.

[Thayion516]

We lack the power to help people who are terrible at life, but we can help them no be terrible at DDO. Why are you hating on them so much and want to keep them oppressed?

Man. Stop just straight up baiting responses from people with these with these short totally intangible comments. Either post some relative info or a well thought out logic path or let this thread die.

I know you like to up your count and peeps responding to you make you feel good and all, but add to the conversation at least.

Speaking FOR people that you do not even know is fundamentally flawed logic. There are no "Oppressed Bad Players" , that is total fiction on the verge of a lie.

[Monkey-Boy]

There are no "Oppressed Bad Players" , that is total fiction on the verge of a lie.


They are oppressed by not knowing their toons are weak. A DPS meter would illuminate this, free them from the oppression of their own lack of awareness.

Notice we don't have as many low HP "one shot wonder" that we did when people's HP was hidden?

And I'm not baiting or whatever, I'm serious.

[Qhualor]

Man. Stop just straight up baiting responses from people with these with these short totally intangible comments. Either post some relative info or a well thought out logic path or let this thread die.

I know you like to up your count and peeps responding to you make you feel good and all, but add to the conversation at least.

Speaking FOR people that you do not even know is fundamentally flawed logic. There are no "Oppressed Bad Players" , that is total fiction on the verge of a lie.

just ignore it. its not like Turbine is going to take posts like that seriously. posting like that is just reaching to try and strengthen a weak argument.

[Thayion516]

They are oppressed by not knowing their toons are weak. A DPS meter would illuminate this, free them from the oppression of their own lack of awareness.

Notice we don't have as many low HP "one shot wonder" that we did when people's HP was hidden?

And I'm not baiting or whatever, I'm serious.

Webster.com

op·pressed
??prest
adjective
subject to harsh and authoritarian treatment.
"oppressed racial minorities"

I'm done here. Good Luck understanding what your even attempting to talk about.

[redoubt]

No DPS meter please.

I played SWTOR and there was a combat log related DPS meter that ran separate from the game. It was only useful on certain boss fights that were considered dps races anyway. It did do an honest job of calculating how much damage each person logged into the dps meter did on a particular fight. Sadly, instead of resulting in people taking the time to help people develop better attack rotation or identify where better gear or character skills were needed, people got excluded from groups and left to their own to figure out how to get better. Is that what we want here?

Next, dps is only one part of the game. Though I will admit, it has become the holy grail in DDO. Healing, CC and buffing are relegated to much lower levels of importance in todays game where 6 heros solo together in one quest.
If you really want a dps meter or other metric, then as I, and many others have said before, you need to consider much more than just dps.
Calculate every point of healing done and credit that (likely at a high multiplier ratio considering our hp to mob hp ratios)
Calculate hp saved via buffs. Have pro energy on or stoneskin, the points for the hp that is saved go to the person who cast it.
Have deathward and get saved? Your max hp go to the person who cast it.
Fight a mez'd mob? Its dps potential (that it didn't do) get credited to the person who mez'd it.
Get bonus damage from a helpless mob? At least part of that damage credit needs to go the person who made it helpless.
Got a buff that boost your damage stat or damage output? That portion of all your damage goes to the caster of the buff.
Insta-kill gets credit for the hp remaining on the mob at the time of death.
Charmed mobs damage is credited to charmer as is the dps potential against the party that was prevented.
Get rez'd? 100% of your damage goes to the person who rez'd you until you shrine. (you were dead, without the raise, your dps is ZERO.)

This is why a dps meter or kill count is highly suspect and not realistic to code...

[Oliphant]

And would need to be measured correctly if real contribution is to be measured.

If an artificer buffed you with deadly, the extra damage should go on their meter, not yours.

If a wizard mass holds mobs, 1.0x of that 1.5 damage is yours and .5 of it is theirs. The stuff you had to pay to get enhancements for which jacks this up should be cut in half and half given to each, because you took the enhancement which jacks up your helpless damage, but if it wasn't CC'd in the first place that added damage wouldn't exist.

Same as above if your melee stuns a mob and everyone else attacks it - the modified damage on top of what they normally do is your damage on the meter.

If a bard buffs you with +7/+7 song, that part of your damage should be on their meter, not yours.

THIS dps meter would be cool! I would love to see a buffer type toon come out on top on an XP panel dps calc, even once...

[Angelic-council]

Well, wasting less time playing video games would probably be a good start. So I question your goal here.

Yeah, it's very true tho. A lot of people spend way too much time playing online games. 4 - 5 hours daily. But, they usually achieve almost nothing in real life. If I didn't limit my play time, I would be making 50 - 60k something a year, but now 125k with bonus. Game really change people.. I guess some people never heard of screen radiation and the mind reaction to certain situations when you play the game.

even tho.. I support game community, it's a good place to be in and have fun. But like Grem said, playing less = success (hard work too!).

[Singular]

^this

If the combat log could be filtered and logged to a file (to where the screenshots go) that would be sufficient (and cool).

Totally. That's all we would need - ways to filter the combat log (or even just different colors for different effects). Then we could learn anything we wanted about our characters - and if it would save as a file somewhere, that would be even better.

[Uska]

Whatever happened to personal housing that producer promised us. Wasn't? they can add something called DPS meter to it.

It was never promised it was discussed

[Uska]

Holy Moly Batman!

I have some small general respect for those who started the same year as me or lower, but this sentence...

Your behavior is unacceptable.

I saw nothing wrong with what he said we would all be better off playing games less and being active more

[Oxarhamar]

No DPS meter please.

I played SWTOR and there was a combat log related DPS meter that ran separate from the game. It was only useful on certain boss fights that were considered dps races anyway. It did do an honest job of calculating how much damage each person logged into the dps meter did on a particular fight. Sadly, instead of resulting in people taking the time to help people develop better attack rotation or identify where better gear or character skills were needed, people got excluded from groups and left to their own to figure out how to get better. Is that what we want here?

Next, dps is only one part of the game. Though I will admit, it has become the holy grail in DDO. Healing, CC and buffing are relegated to much lower levels of importance in todays game where 6 heros solo together in one quest.
If you really want a dps meter or other metric, then as I, and many others have said before, you need to consider much more than just dps.
Calculate every point of healing done and credit that (likely at a high multiplier ratio considering our hp to mob hp ratios)
Calculate hp saved via buffs. Have pro energy on or stoneskin, the points for the hp that is saved go to the person who cast it.
Have deathward and get saved? Your max hp go to the person who cast it.
Fight a mez'd mob? Its dps potential (that it didn't do) get credited to the person who mez'd it.
Get bonus damage from a helpless mob? At least part of that damage credit needs to go the person who made it helpless.
Got a buff that boost your damage stat or damage output? That portion of all your damage goes to the caster of the buff.
Insta-kill gets credit for the hp remaining on the mob at the time of death.
Charmed mobs damage is credited to charmer as is the dps potential against the party that was prevented.
Get rez'd? 100% of your damage goes to the person who rez'd you until you shrine. (you were dead, without the raise, your dps is ZERO.)

This is why a dps meter or kill count is highly suspect and not realistic to code...


A Sorc, a Favored Soul, & an Artificer walk into a bar...

No seriously.

In a static Group Sorc, FVS, & Arti do a few quests in one play session.

Quest 1 Sorc rules the kill count leaving little for the FVS & Arti to pick off in between.
Quest 2 FVS rules the kill count leaving little to the Sorc & Arti.
Quest 3 Artificer rules the kill count leaving little to the Sorc & FVS.

An XP panel DPS score is as useless as kill count it's entirely situational and tells us very little.


Now a DPS dummy as suggested by a few that a player could just beat on that would give them thier average DPS over the duration of the beat down could actually benifit a player.

a player can test different enhancement combinations, different items, etc.. To find out what is best for them.

[Uska]

They are oppressed by not knowing their toons are weak. A DPS meter would illuminate this, free them from the oppression of their own lack of awareness.

Notice we don't have as many low HP "one shot wonder" that we did when people's HP was hidden?

And I'm not baiting or whatever, I'm serious.

without other knowledge and tools it would useless to new players who have been happily playing blissfully ignorant of such and it's still the most worthless thing that could be added to the game and I,thought healing, barbs, dragonboring and the realms couldn't be topped

[Rykka]

That's Captain Uber to you, peasant.

More like Captain Extraneous.

Though I'd like a SIMPLE dps meter (like the FPS meter). Just something that scrapes the combat log every half second or so, and provides an average DPS for the previous second. Something I can glance at that will remind me to swap weapons and give me a realtime value.

I don't care what anybody else's DPS is.

[Uska]

More like Captain Extraneous.

Though I'd like a SIMPLE dps meter (like the FPS meter). Just something that scrapes the combat log every half second or so, and provides an average DPS for the previous second. Something I can glance at that will remind me to swap weapons and give me a realtime value.

I don't care what anybody else's DPS is.

That's the problem you get a basic DPS meter and then people scream its not good enough and demand to be able to know other peoples, its just better to not have one period ever in any game

[Rykka]

A Sorc, a Favored Soul, & an Artificer walk into a bar...

No seriously.

In a static Group Sorc, FVS, & Arti do a few quests in one play session.

Quest 1 Sorc rules the kill count leaving little for the FVS & Arti to pick off in between.
Quest 2 FVS rules the kill count leaving little to the Sorc & Arti.
Quest 3 Artificer rules the kill count leaving little to the Sorc & FVS.

An XP panel DPS score is as useless as kill count it's entirely situational and tells us very little.


Now a DPS dummy as suggested by a few that a player could just beat on that would give them thier average DPS over the duration of the beat down could actually benifit a player.

a player can test different enhancement combinations, different items, etc.. To find out what is best for them.

Burst damage isn't dps. It's supposed to be sexy emergency damage that is less efficient than that which is doled out by grunt dps-ers. But of course my DPS as a caster is only limited by my pocketbook, power pots are cheap and the only melee equivalent is cake. that's just embarrassing.

[Teh_Bugbear]

DPS meter would be a great idea.

Signed.

[Uska]

DPS meter would be a great idea.

Signed.

Why would it be a good idea? It doesn't add enjoyment to the game content doesn't thst quests puzzles and things like thst how could a stream of numbers add enjoyment to anyone bit an accountant?

[HastyPudding]

Triple hell to the no. Not going to sign this.

Games that have DPS meters have players that become obsessed, literally, about every fraction of damage output. Look at WoW and Rift for example; people there are absolutely obsessed about their dps comparing to others. I used to play Rift, I got sick of the elitist, arrogant players that cared about nothing except their DPS meter. I was literally kicked from a group mid-instance because my DPS was fractionally smaller than the next person up (both of us were mages, albeit different types) and the leader/guide said it should be higher.

Sadly, DDO's already hostile and elitist environment would be a catalyst for outright stupidity if a DPS meter is possible. I already hate that DDO has gravitated towards 'everyone is DPS, there is no support'. A DPS meter would push that over the edge into the realm of hardcore number crunchers like in WoW.

The only possible way I would ever sign for a DPS meter was if it also measured healing done, crowd control effectiveness, damage mitigated, and overall effectiveness of each individual player in contribution to the group.

[Oxarhamar]

Burst damage isn't dps. It's supposed to be sexy emergency damage that is less efficient than that which is doled out by grunt dps-ers. But of course my DPS as a caster is only limited by my pocketbook, power pots are cheap and the only melee equivalent is cake. that's just embarrassing.

You are aware that there are limitations to burst damage if a player doesn't open thier wallet, Dupe, or spend excessive amounts of play on pots.

Hey, I for one have done all my caster lives Divine & Arcane as DPS (save the first Instakill life that I hated so boring) and probably only ever drank a handful of pots (I depend entirely on my SP supply & a Bauble)

The Casters I run static with are like minded individuals who Use what we have and if we run out of SP we probably let the melee beat down to the next shrine before drinking a pot unless it

still it was an example of how a DPS meter in party likely would tell us next to nothing in most quests it would probably differ quest to quest just as kill count does.

Still I'd perfer a dummy type DPS meter with no HP you could just beat on it and it would display your average DPS after 30second, minute, what have you.

[Thlargir]

For ex, I often have to choose between the jeweled cloak and adamantine cloak of the wolf - how much dps am I gaining by using the +5 insight bonus to seeker? How much am I losing by not using it?

Surely a spreadsheet would answer your question more thoroughly than a dps meter?

[Oxarhamar]

Surely a spreadsheet would answer your question more thoroughly than a dps meter?

In theory alone.

[IronClan]

okay granting that Turbine is loath to put things into the game that encourage min maxers to be d***s to flavor oriented players, how about a personal only one use DPS/To hit meter

Shadow of Prowess: A Store item (only way they're going to agree to it) inexpensive like 50tp per purchase, one use.

Conjure a Shadow that looks eerily similar to you, you may contest with it, in a personal trail to know more about yourself (shows you your Damage per second, Damage per minute, rate of attacks per minute, average to-hit, max roll crit damage, max roll non crit).

Outcomes would be presented in special window that allows selecting and copying the text, and remains a persistent icon for 5 or 10 minutes (near where the not proficient and uncentered icons show up) so you can open it back up if you need to.

[Monkey-Boy]

okay granting that Turbine is loath to put things into the game that encourage min maxers to be d***s to flavor oriented players, how about a personal only one use DPS/To hit meter
.

Like we really need an excuse?

[krimsonrane]

Use the Spinner of Shadows.

You fight her in 3 rounds. On the 3rd round if you hit her with the essence she'll just stand there and take it for as long as you want to give it. Unlimited HP. On normal the shrine come back so you can try again.

[PermaBanned]

A meter could be interesting. If nothing else, it could provide an interesting contrast to DPS theory calc programs like Grail uses. Those theory calc programs don't take into account human factors that effect/reduce the contribution of Cleaves and other hot key/click attacks.

It would be great to have one in the ship amenity with a training dummy that's adjustable: could set HP to certain levels, including unlimited - would also be great if you could adjust factors like AC, fortification, etc. and add templates like Construct, Undead, Outsider etc for testing special properties. Would also be nice if you could choose to show all your damage values (Base Waleapon, Flaming Burst, Augments, Sneak Attack, Pally light dmg, Gages etc...) in one single combined number instead of a bazilion effects across the screen.

While I think having such a meter included in the XP panel would likely be a mistake due to some (many?) players poor social skills, it would be interesting to see discrepancies between DPS & kill count - for instance, under the old Blitz mechanic I'd frequently just beat things down to near death and move on leaving the kill for the Blitzer... So which one of was doing more DPS? Lol nobody knows.

If there was to be an in quest DPS meter, I would want it to show both average DPS & TDD (Total Damage Done); and in both calculations only include actual damage done - meaning if I score a 3k Crit on a mob that only has 1k HP remaining, it should only record and apply the 1k to the tally. Same for casters and instakills, Fingering or Imploding mobs with full HP would apply the full amount to their DPS/TDD score, while Fingering etc. a mob with only X amount of HP left would only apply the X amount.

Another interesting outcome of an in quest DPS meter would be seeing the effects of run speed/boosts, and the value of little things like pulling out a ranged weapon to use while closing in on Melee range; or for that matter the real DPS/TDD value of Improved Precise Shot.

A personal in quest DPS meter could be highly informative, especially if it could be swiched on/off and set to display the final result of the recording period. Going back to the "adjustable dummy" train of thought, I would find it very interesting to see the DPS cost of self healing, by recording the actual in quest DPS against a given boss, then comparing it against a training dummy set to emulate the boss in every way (HP, Fort, other defenses) except for hitting back.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

dps meter would be pointless. it would just be another highly specific situation which does not give you an accurate measure of your dps at any given time in any given quest.

would it be nice to have a number that i dont have to work to get? sure i guess.

would it mean jack ****? nope.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

A meter could be interesting. If nothing else, it could provide an interesting contrast to DPS theory calc programs like Grail uses. Those theory calc programs don't take into account human factors that effect/reduce the contribution of Cleaves and other hot key/click attacks.

It would be great to have one in the ship amenity with a training dummy that's adjustable: could set HP to certain levels, including unlimited - would also be great if you could adjust factors like AC, fortification, etc. and add templates like Construct, Undead, Outsider etc for testing special properties. Would also be nice if you could choose to show all your damage values (Base Waleapon, Flaming Burst, Augments, Sneak Attack, Pally light dmg, Gages etc...) in one single combined number instead of a bazilion effects across the screen.

While I think having such a meter included in the XP panel would likely be a mistake due to some (many?) players poor social skills, it would be interesting to see discrepancies between DPS & kill count - for instance, under the old Blitz mechanic I'd frequently just beat things down to near death and move on leaving the kill for the Blitzer... So which one of was doing more DPS? Lol nobody knows.

If there was to be an in quest DPS meter, I would want it to show both average DPS & TDD (Total Damage Done); and in both calculations only include actual damage done - meaning if I score a 3k Crit on a mob that only has 1k HP remaining, it should only record and apply the 1k to the tally. Same for casters and instakills, Fingering or Imploding mobs with full HP would apply the full amount to their DPS/TDD score, while Fingering etc. a mob with only X amount of HP left would only apply the X amount.

Another interesting outcome of an in quest DPS meter would be seeing the effects of run speed/boosts, and the value of little things like pulling out a ranged weapon to use while closing in on Melee range; or for that matter the real DPS/TDD value of Improved Precise Shot.

A personal in quest DPS meter could be highly informative, especially if it could be swiched on/off and set to display the final result of the recording period. Going back to the "adjustable dummy" train of thought, I would find it very interesting to see the DPS cost of self healing, by recording the actual in quest DPS against a given boss, then comparing it against a training dummy set to emulate the boss in every way (HP, Fort, other defenses) except for hitting back.

you suggest implementing one the right way. you should know that is beyond turbine.

[Nightmanis]

Give the Magefire cannon 3 crystals, one for 0% fort, 50% fort and 100% fort.

Then allow us to use all spells and abilities inside the proving grounds.

Then you can just film yourself attacking the cannon for a bit, then calculate it yourself.

[Oxarhamar]

Use the Spinner of Shadows.

You fight her in 3 rounds. On the 3rd round if you hit her with the essence she'll just stand there and take it for as long as you want to give it. Unlimited HP. On normal the shrine come back so you can try again.

And you think that is an exceptable DPS measure?

Exactly how long would that take solo?

Could you test your DPS at LVL 5?

With unlimited HP your still just getting combat log numbers which does not equate to a dps meter without being fully recorded and measured.


This in no different than telling someone just to watch the numbers on screen when questing which does not reflect DPS.

[Oxarhamar]

Give the Magefire cannon 3 crystals, one for 0% fort, 50% fort and 100% fort.

Then allow us to use all spells and abilities inside the proving grounds.

Then you can just film yourself attacking the cannon for a bit, then calculate it yourself.

Why bother giving the cannon 0% 50% & 100% fort in game if players would still need third party software to film the combat then to calculate the damage into DPS.

Seams very half hearted.

[jalont]

Why would it be a good idea? It doesn't add enjoyment to the game content doesn't thst quests puzzles and things like thst how could a stream of numbers add enjoyment to anyone bit an accountant?

Again, because the recent casualization of the game has changed the type of game DDO is. It is now a casual build game, something like Farmville. In order to attract the new playerbase that goes with this type of game, we need modern tools, such as a DPS meter. How can you have a casual build game and attract that type of playerbase, if you lack the most basic of tools? People need to easily see the dps their build is doing. That is the entire point of DDO!

[Gremmlynn]

That's the problem you get a basic DPS meter and then people scream its not good enough and demand to be able to know other peoples, its just better to not have one period ever in any gameIt would shift the focus for playing the game away from having fun, however each individual defines that, to working to achieve a higher number on a scale defined by the game. Basically it would be the game telling players what they should consider their reason for playing the game is.

[PermaBanned]

It would shift the focus for playing the game away from having fun, however each individual defines that, to working to achieve a higher number on a scale defined by the game. Basically it would be the game telling players what they should consider their reason for playing the game is.Really? Some people ask for a meter, but if Turbine gives it to them Turbine would be shifting the focus of the game to achieving a high meter score?

Even if you're right, it could have some very intriguing influences on character build depending on how the meter worked. If it's a whole quest thing - from stepping in to attaining completion - the meter might favor builds that do less DPS on Grail's calc program but have a high movement speed + sprint boosts.

[IronClan]

You guys seem to think that it is the responsibility of us veterans to get the noobs through EE content so they can loot all the shinies with us ending up with lootgen only. Sorry but that is not how it works, if you can't put out enough dps on your own to help contribute to the group as a whole then you aren't worth spending a spot on.

A dps meter will help fix this issue.

Arguments like this help ensure they will never put a DPS meter into the game, perhaps that's your aim, it's hard to tell if you're being serious. :p

Personally I would be fine with one that shows you your own DPS for a TP cost as I suggested earlier, the TP cost would pretty much guarantee it wouldn't be used to exclude people from groups and raids (except in the most desperately elitist guild recruiting perhaps). But anything that wasn't personal only will never fly, DDO doesn't need to encourage the sort of game degrading elitist attitudes. Especially with the game running ever thinner on players of every skill level and experience.

IMO I think players with attitudes such as yours should stick to private groups or solo only and never pug, it's best for everyone... you want your lack of challenge and 100% certain easy completions, you get it. We want to have fun, be challenged within the confines of the meta game that doesn't allow much challenge. and see where the random chaos of having an unknown mix of skills, builds, personalities and playstyles leads... We've disparate ideas of fun, best to intermingle as little as possible. This is one reason why TR'ing might have been counter productive for the game... new players interacting with elitists en mass has probably lost the game just as many players as TR'ing has kept on the hamster wheel.

[Algreg]

DPS Meter should be attached to every member of the party while inside a quest. Thus noobs will actually learn how to improve in this game without being told so each time.

I´d say we can pretty much stop here.

[Singular]

Surely a spreadsheet would answer your question more thoroughly than a dps meter?

My calculations never quite match what DDO is doing. I usually underestimate the impact of small changes to base damage.

[Qezuzu]

There's only three kinds of DPS: low DPS, high DPS and max DPS.

I'll give you a hint, there's no point in trying for max DPS.

[Eth]

There's only three kinds of DPS: low DPS, high DPS and max DPS.

I'll give you a hint, there's no point in trying for max DPS.

Wrong. There's:
- Max DPS
- Brutal DPS
- Legendary DPS

[cru121]

Wrong. There's:
- Max DPS
- Brutal DPS
- Legendary DPS

and then there are wolf builds.

[IronClan]

Wrong. There's:
- Max DPS
- Brutal DPS
- Legendary DPS

Pffffttt, you left off Mythical DPS.

[nikos1313]

i would like to have a DPS meter, since i started the game 5 years ago, and no i wasnt playing any other MMORPG earlier. DDO was my first and only so far.

i really dont understand all this huge wave of 'say no to dps meter' especially when in the past couple years almost everything in this game, every new build, is all about DPS.

i dont see how a DPS meter would affect the game in a negative way. and the reason i would like to have one is just to be able to see my DPS compared to other ppl. simple as that.

i cant think of 1 thing that would change the players behavior, with a DPS meter added in the game.

just because i want a DPS meter, that doesnt mean that i only play this game just to max my DPS. it would ONLY be a nice add-on to look at.

none of my toons are top DPS and i am not trying to reach that goal. even my wizzy still uses full epic chrono set, and never been shiradi.

[arkonas]

Dummies are lazy and boring. Not signed.

except they work. who cares if you don't like the idea. i know rift has these dummies as well as dps meters. each dummy is setup differently. normal dungeon expert dungeon raid expert raid etc. it just keeps going up the whole point is to see how you fair. i would rather have the dummies then a dps meter but honestly i don't care if we have either. dps meters i have seen varied. some just dps and hits per second while others had healing done and damage taken added as well.


yes some people would use it to determine your dps but don't they already? if they notice you dying or just not holding your own. they will boot you anyways. jerks are exactly that and i would see nothing changing. this is honestly a legit question and no reason why it can't be added. either one.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

Sometimes I wish there was a Damage Dealt statistic in the XP window.

I don't know how many times I've wanted to sigh when running a Druid or Wizard watching all the melee mugs running around finishing off things that I've already killed - just wait 10 seconds and see my DOTs at work.

And then these same people come on the boards here talking about their kill counts.

[Monkey-Boy]

Sometimes I wish there was a Damage Dealt statistic in the XP window.



That would be fine, and maybe more useful than kill count.

[Monkey-Boy]

Pffffttt, you left off Mythical DPS.

What about Axer DPS?

[Uska]

Again, because the recent casualization of the game has changed the type of game DDO is. It is now a casual build game, something like Farmville. In order to attract the new playerbase that goes with this type of game, we need modern tools, such as a DPS meter. How can you have a casual build game and attract that type of playerbase, if you lack the most basic of tools? People need to easily see the dps their build is doing. That is the entire point of DDO!

Its not a basic tool its some nonsense that some want and a casual build game doesn't need that and if it is important to some people I don't want to play with those people as the will want to exclude people who don't measure up to their standards and DPS isn't the point of DDO at all the point is to have fun and not to inhibit the fun of others.

[SilvanDDO]

I think a dps meter is long overdue. Being able to check the dps output of various builds and gear would be a nice benefit.

/signed
Game needs a DPS meter. This is a character building game where DPS is big part of the achievement of making a great character. That isnt the only thing that is important but it is what many of us strive to accomplish. Fear that you will be judged is real but you will be judged anyway.

I would very much like to know exactly how much more DPS I am getting when I make adjustments to my equipment.
It would certainly make the game more fun.

I dont troll or really post in forums but this one was important enough for me to take a few minutes of my time to sign, hopefully others do to and it gets the attention of the game designers.

Thanks.

[Spekdah_NZ]

Ug, really? No, no no. Please don't Call of Duty DDO.

I guess while we are there we could have ... um..
Quiver clip, I need to see how many arrows I got left, you know like CoD games with guns.

Oh oh I need a stealth meter too like Thief/Dishonoured and Crysis.

Need a spell power meter, DPS meter just can't be for those damm melees.

Tactical meter, need to know how currently good my next trip might be.

Speed meter, hell yes. Could we have it it both mph/kph, then everyone could be happy!!! :-) Imperial and metric.

Weight meter, never know, I could be close to being burdened. I would need to know that with a meter, it's too hard to open character screen sometimes.

Maybe we could put meters on the examine menu too, that way I know how cold or hot the elementals are so I know what spell to use. Hell put meters on the mobs too. Could it be like a thermometer devs please? You know the little class thing with red mercury.

Tank meter, maybe could put it in the shape of a shield?

Music meter for those bardy types, maybe in the shape of a violin. How hard are they rocking those songs?

I am really struggling with the utility meter. It would be nice to know how McGvyerish I am.

And I need some kind of HuD too.... or is that going too far for a fantasy game ?

There could be some sarcasm here, I am not sure :-)

[Uska]

No never ever

[Uska]

absolutely - yes.

why? game, basically, is about dps. like car is about speed on road have speed-o-meter, game about damage should have usable damage-o-meter. it is actually there already(combat log), just it is normally unusable. dps meter would collect combat log data and gives out some more usable numbers.

there is no reason no to.

why? if someone do not want see hes dps, he can not watch it, so simple.
and reason "i do not want", just because some person do not want to see something, can not be reason for others to now allow them to see what this person do not want to see.

if someone would want hide hes dps, it should be allowed.


There is absolutely no valid good reason to add such to DDO

[Chai]

i would like to have a DPS meter, since i started the game 5 years ago, and no i wasnt playing any other MMORPG earlier. DDO was my first and only so far.

i really dont understand all this huge wave of 'say no to dps meter' especially when in the past couple years almost everything in this game, every new build, is all about DPS.

i dont see how a DPS meter would affect the game in a negative way. and the reason i would like to have one is just to be able to see my DPS compared to other ppl. simple as that.

i cant think of 1 thing that would change the players behavior, with a DPS meter added in the game.

just because i want a DPS meter, that doesnt mean that i only play this game just to max my DPS. it would ONLY be a nice add-on to look at.

none of my toons are top DPS and i am not trying to reach that goal. even my wizzy still uses full epic chrono set, and never been shiradi.

If you played other MMOs with a DPS meter, it would be clear as to how they affect the game in a negative way. The community here already showed those true colors when we had MyDDO and people were constantly being raked over the coals about their character builds and gear set ups while being denied for groups their characters were easily qualified for.

[Ancient]

There is absolutely no valid good reason to add such to DDO

Sure there is...

My suggestion: at the end of each quest, award xp bonuses to individuals who:
* Never died
* Raised the most party members
* Healed the most hp of other party members
* Highest kill counts
* Highest DPS
* Broke the most objects
* Disarmed the most traps
* Did the most emotes
* Took the most damage
* Was missed the most
* Crowd controlled the most mobs
* Ran the furthest distance
* Smashed the most breakables
* Found the most secret doors

Make it a small amount of bonus exp for each, give them little titles like "Vandal master". The bonus exp only appears if you are grouped.

[SirValentine]

I guess while we are there we could have ... um..
Quiver clip, I need to see how many arrows I got left, you know like CoD games with guns.


Drag the arrow stack to your hot-bar, and see it! Already in the game.



Oh oh I need a stealth meter too like Thief/Dishonoured and Crysis.


Look on your character sheet under skills, and see your bonus to Hide and Move Silently. Already in the game.



Need a spell power meter


Hover over that weird little symbol on your character sheet, and it shows your spell power. Already in the game.



Tactical meter, need to know how currently good my next trip might be.


Drag your tactical feat to a hot-bar and hover over it, and see your DC. Already in the game.



Weight meter, never know, I could be close to being burdened. I would need to know that with a meter, it's too hard to open character screen sometimes.


Look on your inventory screen; the weight is displayed. Already in the game.



Hell put meters on the mobs too.


You don't see the bar showing the mob's health? You might have accidentally turned it off. Check your options to turn it back on. Already in the game.



Tank meter, maybe could put it in the shape of a shield?


AC, PRR, hit points, saves...all on your character sheet. Already in the game.



Music meter for those bardy types, maybe in the shape of a violin. How hard are they rocking those songs?


Check your buff bar. The duration of each of those song buffs is precisely shown in a little square meter. Already in the game.



And I need some kind of HuD too


Isn't that the entire UI, already in the game?



Speed meter, hell yes. Could we have it it both mph/kph, then everyone could be happy!!! :-) Imperial and metric.


That is an AWESOME idea. I love it. /signed on a speed meter.

[HernandoCortez]

/signed

[Nefatron]

As long as you are the only one that can see it, I don't want others to know I pike everything.

lol

[Hendrik]

This, just two examples of the richness that I'm talking about.
Team up, be awesome together!

Someone might have more DPS them me so we have to nerf them.

Of course we could go back to the CON is not a dump stat days where people had to show HP or look them up via myDDO and decline them.

Could go back to the days of linking portal beaters and declining if they were not up the leaders idea of portal beaters.

Might be some good forum drama with a DPS meter and people declined if they didn't have the DPS the leader thought they should have.

Plus, who needs a DPS meter in a solo MMO?

Stroking you e-peen alone is well, you know...

[Hendrik]

Pffffttt, you left off Mythical DPS.

Can we have a checkbox to not show DPS?

[Uska]

Sure there is...

My suggestion: at the end of each quest, award xp bonuses to individuals who:
* Never died
* Raised the most party members
* Healed the most hp of other party members
* Highest kill counts
* Highest DPS
* Broke the most objects
* Disarmed the most traps
* Did the most emotes
* Took the most damage
* Was missed the most
* Crowd controlled the most mobs
* Ran the furthest distance
* Smashed the most breakables
* Found the most secret doors

Make it a small amount of bonus exp for each, give them little titles like "Vandal master". The bonus exp only appears if you are grouped.

None of those are either good or valid for adding the meter

[valarmorghuliis]

Rather than having a full on dps meter I would just like the ability to export and parse my combat logs rather than having to manually copy and paste or do the fraps parsing method that Vanshillar used to use. It seems unnecessary to me to make it so convoluted to gain access to that data rather than having a check box in the options panel for "write combat log to file" or something.

[Ancient]

None of those are either good or valid for adding the meter

The simple reason that some people enjoy fine tuning their builds is enough of a reason for the meter. That is what I find fun, and having the information would increase that fun.

My list was in response to the anti-argument that making a meter would make that the "goal" of DDO. If that is the case, lets add lots of meters to make it clear there is no goal.

[jalont]

Its not a basic tool its some nonsense that some want and a casual build game doesn't need that and if it is important to some people I don't want to play with those people as the will want to exclude people who don't measure up to their standards and DPS isn't the point of DDO at all the point is to have fun and not to inhibit the fun of others.

I'm not asking for some in-quest DPS meter that shows me what everyone else is doing. I only need to know what DPS I'm doing. I don't know why you're so afraid of me knowing my own DPS. Sheesh.

[Ancient]

Its not a basic tool its some nonsense that some want and a casual build game doesn't need that and if it is important to some people I don't want to play with those people as the will want to exclude people who don't measure up to their standards and DPS isn't the point of DDO at all the point is to have fun and not to inhibit the fun of others.

Your basic argument comes down to you being worried that someone somewhere might not be nice to others. News flash, this already happens in the game. Adding a long overdue basic piece of information won't magically change nice people into jerks or jerks into nice people.

If you don't want to use a DPS meter, don't. For others, it would play into some of what they find fun in the game... which means ironically that the one trying to inhibit the fun of others.... is you :)

[SiliconScout]

Why oh why was this bad bad idea re-posted on.


Look read through the whole thing and assuming you don't have an agenda it's fairly obvious that the potential negatives far outweight the potential positives of showing a DPS meter.

THAT said....

There does seem to be some consensus that if there were a private DPS meter of some sort that would be fine.

Myself I obviously have come to the conclusion that this would be bad for the game as a whole, however I would be very jazzed if they could add something like say a brawling pit on the airship that you could spawn specific enemies into, beat them down and get a DPS or some sort of efficiency report. For those that want the DPS meter who aren't looking for a beat stick to use against other players this should serve their needs just fine. For those who don't want the meter it would be an amenity that has a lot of potential to be used simply to test / train tactics and builds. The only people who lose in that scenario are those who are looking for a beat stick to use against other players, and honestly if we want a healthy game and community we simply can't and shouldn't care what those types want added.

[Connman]

But what I would like to see is them add a dps meter to the top of the training dummy: Visible numbers seen by all. Not only could you measure personally DPS, but group DPS as well.

You would need to add some settings to the dummy so you could change the template, IE undead or construct, and the hp.

And even though I love the effect, on this dummy you would probably not want it flopping all over the place.

As far as already in the game, yeah we have DPS meters. They are called mobs.

For example I am on my CC wizard dropping mass holds and stuff out in Shavarath. We are staying together as a group enemies are dropping, it is going pretty fast. I get to this one monster and have him dancing I notice he is taking a while to go down as I beat on him with my great-axe, I figure it's like what the monkey said when he peed in the ocean "every little bit helps"

So I look back , and yeah I see the three other people in the group just standing there staring at me, clearing measuring the dps of the wizzy with the GS GA.

I just stopped clicked every clickie for DPS, typed /Flex, and went back at it.

Anyway some updated dummies would be nice, i am with that.

DPS measured in the quest, I think that would just be epeening waiting to happen.

[Uska]

The simple reason that some people enjoy fine tuning their builds is enough of a reason for the meter. That is what I find fun, and having the information would increase that fun.

My list was in response to the anti-argument that making a meter would make that the "goal" of DDO. If that is the case, lets add lots of meters to make it clear there is no goal.

No it's not it looks as more posters don't want it than do

[Uska]

I'm not asking for some in-quest DPS meter that shows me what everyone else is doing. I only need to know what DPS I'm doing. I don't know why you're so afraid of me knowing my own DPS. Sheesh.

Just look at your comand log and I don't care what anyone's DPS is and never will it is unneeded info

[Uska]

Your basic argument comes down to you being worried that someone somewhere might not be nice to others. News flash, this already happens in the game. Adding a long overdue basic piece of information won't magically change nice people into jerks or jerks into nice people.

If you don't want to use a DPS meter, don't. For others, it would play into some of what they find fun in the game... which means ironically that the one trying to inhibit the fun of others.... is you :)

I can't see how it could be fun except to math geeks and the dev time to make this takes away from the majority that either doesn't care or doesn't want it and if we don't have one after almost 9 years then we never need one!

[Qhualor]

Sure there is...

My suggestion: at the end of each quest, award xp bonuses to individuals who:
* Never died
* Raised the most party members
* Healed the most hp of other party members
* Highest kill counts
* Highest DPS
* Broke the most objects
* Disarmed the most traps
* Did the most emotes
* Took the most damage
* Was missed the most
* Crowd controlled the most mobs
* Ran the furthest distance
* Smashed the most breakables
* Found the most secret doors

Make it a small amount of bonus exp for each, give them little titles like "Vandal master". The bonus exp only appears if you are grouped.

the words I want to use to describe this list is against forum rules

[Ancient]

Just look at your comand log and I don't care what anyone's DPS is and never will it is unneeded info

I would be perfectly happy with the ability to store the combat log to a file. As is, it is far to short, far to difficult to save and provides only a small fraction of the value it could have if it was able to be looked at in detail. The fact people make and review videos to test things is a sad statement about how poor the combat log is.

[FlaviusMaximus]

I would love to see the kobold bowling pin set up that exists in the Lamannia dojo as an amenity option for the airships. The benefit would be being able to test single and multiple target dps while also being able to use all forms of attacks and spells. The difference between this set up and seeing how well things work in quest would be a dps display that is shown after kobolds die.

The fortification for the kobolds would need to be selectable to get a true measure of dps (0%/25%/75%/100% for example), and having an option to calculate and display the dps after either one or all were killed would be great. If the kobold hit points were also selectable, starting with how much they have in the dojo as the base option, it would be perfection.

[Qhualor]

I would love to see the kobold bowling pin set up that exists in the Lamannia dojo as an amenity option for the airships. The benefit would be being able to test single and multiple target dps while also being able to use all forms of attacks and spells. The difference between this set up and seeing how well things work in quest would be a dps display that is shown after kobolds die.

The fortification for the kobolds would need to be selectable to get a true measure of dps (0%/25%/75%/100% for example), and having an option to calculate and display the dps after either one or all were killed would be great. If the kobold hit points were also selectable, starting with how much they have in the dojo as the base option, it would be perfection.

I would love this, but we would spend more time killing kobolds on the ship than actually running quests killing kobolds.

I don't know how possible it could be, but if we could select all the different monsters in the game with their already in place immunities, DR, fortification, etc it would be beautiful. it would give players a good idea where their dps is and what weapons work the best against certain foes. it would be the closest thing to prove dps than people sitting down with a calculator and scratch paper, but still a better starting point that can change once inside a quest.