Lag wiped again! Guess it wasn't Crystal Cove then

[goldgolem]

Whole party frozen and dead :( Currently stuck in quest and cant move

[DarthCaedus]

You will get more support if you blame crystal cove.

[bartharok]

Blame anyone and you get support. Find a reason and be derided.

[Singular]

Probably we need to start planning on the lag monster in Deathwyrm. It typically hits at the beginning of the fight with the shadow dragon, typically after the group has split into light and dark side teams, sometimes after the darkside team has returned.

I suggest keeping a person who can rez others near the edge, so they can run off the side to survive the lag and rez everyone else. Alternatively, someone can park a dual-boxed alt on one of the pillars just down below - the maximum safe point in case mobs drop down.

Or make sure some of the party has Jack Jibbers blades.

[Powskier]

You will get more support if you blame crystal cove.

you will also look like more of an pleab....as time has proven events have nothin to do with lag

[F2PPremiumLeech]

When I've been in situations like these, I've noticed that sometimes lag stops immediately when one party member either manages to leave instance or quits game.

This has lead me to wonder if the lag is actually result of the game trying to sync everyone with that person, possible deadlock situation in network code. I wonder if network traffic monitor would be able to pick something unusual in situation like that. Even better would be to actually have Turbine detect when lag occurs and start writing stuff to logs during that time to analyze what is going on.

[IronClan]

Anyone remember when Eladrin removed alacrity and lowered the amount of attack speed boosts? Remember the TWF nerf? When instead of actual doubled attacks (one main and one off hand) the off hand strike became a percentage chance? When Zeal and the fighter Capstone were changed from 10% attack speed boosts to double strike because attack speed was said to be computationally intensive?

Vanguard has 15% melee alacrity
SWF has a 30% increase in alacrity
And we have a new percentage scaling melee power computation on top of that.

My formerly gimpy low DPS S&B Paladin watches combat damage numbers, healing and incoming damage scroll up the screen for 10 seconds after everything is dead EVERY FIGHT... this never happened before... except back in the shroud lag days when everyone beating on portals with TWF would cause instances across the server to lag and the server struggled to update the client causing desync issues.

[Archangel666]

Has anyone noticed which instance they're in when lag hits?

I ask, because I had a day off yesterday and so got a lot of questing done on my TR'ed Monk.

What I observed was that I kept getting hit with lag spikes, but my Latency never really changed (I have it permanently on screen). My Latency was always around the 110-115 mark, yet I'd be rubber-banding etc.

After the first few quests I started typing /loc each time I lagged and I noticed that a disproportionate number of times I was in i2049. Of say 20 Quests, about 14 of them were in i2049, and I lagged in them.

[Powskier]

When I've been in situations like these, I've noticed that sometimes lag stops immediately when one party member either manages to leave instance or quits game.

This has lead me to wonder if the lag is actually result of the game trying to sync everyone with that person, possible deadlock situation in network code. I wonder if network traffic monitor would be able to pick something unusual in situation like that. Even better would be to actually have Turbine detect when lag occurs and start writing stuff to logs during that time to analyze what is going on.

i can go red latency if a person communicates while my character is just loaded(like join group) I hadda tell my buds to wait a few seconds b4 sendin me invite when I log in.

[Chai]

Anyone remember when Eladrin removed alacrity and lowered the amount of attack speed boosts? Remember the TWF nerf? When instead of actual doubled attacks (one main and one off hand) the off hand strike became a percentage chance? When Zeal and the fighter Capstone were changed from 10% attack speed boosts to double strike because attack speed was said to be computationally intensive?

Vanguard has 15% melee alacrity
SWF has a 30% increase in alacrity
And we have a new percentage scaling melee power computation on top of that.

My formerly gimpy low DPS S&B Paladin watches combat damage numbers, healing and incoming damage scroll up the screen for 10 seconds after everything is dead EVERY FIGHT... this never happened before... except back in the shroud lag days when everyone beating on portals with TWF would cause instances across the server to lag and the server struggled to update the client causing desync issues.

The goal was the reduction of physics checks of twf , where the offhand was checking distance between you and the mob every time just as well as the main hand was. Nowdays the main hand checks that distance, and the offhand is a proc. Shield bashing is a proc. doublestrike is a proc. So the physics checks were reduced significantly. Alac added to mainhand only slightly increases physics checks, due to the offhand still being a proc and not its own physics check.

[Theolin]

From my comfie arm chair analysis I have noticed 3 kinds of lag



Running through public instances

minor nuisance usually clears up in less than a second often repeats 5-10 times


stutter lag in quests

minor nuisance usually clears up in less than a second often repeats 5-10 times
usually only happens solo or in a group of 2 of us where we stick together


rubber-banding / standstill in quests

happens usually in a full group of 6 or 12
only clears up when the correct person dies or DCs
seems to be related to the group splitting up into at least 2 groups and getting 'far' enough away from each other

'far' enough - means more than everyone bunched up in the same 20x20ish area and less than really far apart like 1/2 a dungeon away
there seems to be a middle distance that is optimal for the chance to cause this
there seems to be certian quests/explorer areas that are more problamatic

thunderholm, von 1&2, haunted halls
there are others but those seems to be the main culprits for me

[Chauncey1]

Caused a total party wipe.
Our next try was completely lag free though.

[IronClan]

The goal was the reduction of physics checks of twf , where the offhand was checking distance between you and the mob every time just as well as the main hand was. Nowdays the main hand checks that distance, and the offhand is a proc. Shield bashing is a proc. doublestrike is a proc. So the physics checks were reduced significantly. Alac added to mainhand only slightly increases physics checks, due to the offhand still being a proc and not its own physics check.

Thanks for the opinion. Eladrin took out two sources of 10% alacrity and replaced them with doublestrike to reduce resource use. Three years later some newer Dev's under a lot of pressure to get stuff published and perhaps not knowing "what has gone before" put in 15% and 30% alacrity with what has to be the most popular types of builds to play right now and scaling MP and lag is noticeably worse, even with the servers being half empty of players, and even with players (such as myself) who've seen very little lag over the last few years.

Unless you have a better theory to offer like "P2W did it", there seems to be a pretty easy correlation between the recent updates changes and the marked increases in lag.

[Failedlegend]

Far too much dev time wasted and far too many unneeded nerfs have resulted from this constant whining about lag.

This is an ONLINE MMO until the day internet is as ubiquitous as electricity and if wireless ever becomes as reliable as a wired connection (I'm directly wired using a 100ft cable FYI) and if even that wired connection becomes reliable 99.999999% of the time lag is going to happen on BOTH sides and the dozens of stops between. Lag is a reality of online gaming, deal with it.

[IronClan]

Far too much dev time wasted and far too many unneeded nerfs have resulted from this constant whining about lag.

This is an ONLINE MMO until the day internet is as ubiquitous as electricity and if wireless ever becomes as reliable as a wired connection (I'm directly wired using a 100ft cable FYI) and if even that wired connection becomes reliable 99.999999% of the time lag is going to happen on BOTH sides and the dozens of stops between. Lag is a reality of online gaming, deal with it.

Far too simplistic, when recent updates have caused my Paladin to watch his damage healing and incoming damage numbers scroll up the screen for 10 seconds after everything is dead after every single fight all night long then something recent has caused the servers to lag and not keep up in real time.

Recent changes like massive Alacrity boosts and MP scaling calculations. There are easy ways to replace the alacrity and lose ZERO DPS, there were better ways to make Melee more competitive with Caster DPS, they were just less "simple and neat" than Melee Power... And if MP is actually causing so much resource use that half empty servers are lagging, then it probably needs to be replaced by a better system. Start by simply ramping up base damage and crits and forget this whole alacrity mess.

10,000 damage at 1000 per hit per second on average, is just as good as 10,000 damage at 500 per hit at 2 hits per second on average. The only actual difference is that one of them is half as computationally intensive.

[Chai]

Thanks for the opinion. Eladrin took out two sources of 10% alacrity and replaced them with doublestrike to reduce resource use. Three years later some newer Dev's under a lot of pressure to get stuff published and perhaps not knowing "what has gone before" put in 15% and 30% alacrity with what has to be the most popular types of builds to play right now and scaling MP and lag is noticeably worse, even with the servers being half empty of players, and even with players (such as myself) who've seen very little lag over the last few years.

Unless you have a better theory to offer like "P2W did it", there seems to be a pretty easy correlation between the recent updates changes and the marked increases in lag.

This is not a theory, it is factual information from the huge U5 melee changes thread.

Since those physics checks are only on the main hand now where they were on the offhand as well before, the number of them were cut in half. Giving 10% alac to 50% physics checks would result in a 5% gain in physics checks compared to pre U5. The major issues where experienced when multiple people had 100% physics checks on every swing. Also the make up of those shroud groups was typically 8-9 heavy beaters 1-2 casters, and 2 healers.

There are even folks in that U5 thread asking why they had to nerf alacrity and twf offhand proc to 80 from 100% when those weren't being called out as the issue. Glancing blows while moving was also nerfed in U5. Do you also think they have something to do with the lag, or is it because when the cove is gone theres nothing else to blame the lag on?

Or maybe armor up made these characters so much more survivable they no longer have to kill mobs even on a full red alert while people plow EH and EN for XP at zerg speed to get their ETRs done.

[Chai]

10,000 damage at 1000 per hit per second on average, is just as good as 10,000 damage at 500 per hit at 2 hits per second on average. The only actual difference is that one of them is half as computationally intensive.

And the other difference is slow characters are less fun to play. You can call that opinion if you want, but I doubt that anything close to the majority of players disagrees with it.

[IronClan]

And the other difference is slow characters are less fun to play. You can call that opinion if you want, but I doubt that anything close to the majority of players disagrees with it.

I don't blame lag on Cove, I think events get blamed because of the placebo effect. In fact I have a recent post stating as much.

I am capable of feeling the increase in lag, but better than that. I can directly and objectively quantify the increase in lag. Before these updates with MP and massive alacrity increases, my combat feedback scrolled in real time. After these updates 100% of all SWF or Vanguard toon, fights my damage numbers scroll up the screen for 10 seconds after everything died. It's not prevelent on my THF (slower attack rate but higher damage) nor my caster (massive damage on much slower attack rates due to longer cool downs). But hop on my Vanguard or Swash and I feel like I'm playing faster than the game is capable of keeping up with.

There's not a lot less fun than having your damage feedback on a 10 second delay because the server can't keep you updated. it divorces you from the action... it's like watching a Kung Fu movie where the hits and pows and ka-thumps and Ki shouting all happen 10 seconds after the on screen action is over... it blows.

As for what you doubt the majority would find fun, I'll just defeat that with an equally subjective assertion of my own: that the majority clearly would find big huge damage numbers more fun... Now I'll admit I just made a subjective assertion (as did you), but there's a reason that everyone runs around with Greataxes instead of Falchions despite the latter being higher AVERAGE DPS.

[FranOhmsford]

Anecdotal I know but for me the Lag's got even worse since Cove closed!

[FranOhmsford]

but there's a reason that everyone runs around with Greataxes instead of Falchions despite the latter being higher AVERAGE DPS.

Actually I don't like either!

Greatswords for the win!

[Wh070aa]

Cove tends to make one massive lag spike every couple of hours(-ish). Now there is just the shorter lag/ rubber bands left for me (and party members).

Big raids, and the larger dungeons are really bad, especially the ones with massive spawning of monsters. I just stopped running raids because of this. They are not fun to begin with(2 hour wait for LFM party, and 20 runs to get anything, 80+ runs to get thing you want (**** the torc, I am no longer trying to get it), and this makes them a real chore.

That said in a lot of other games lag is way worse, DDO has just couple of bad cores with massive lag, and some unimportant other lag.

[Knobull]

New physics engine; everything was better before it. Including lag. Lib on lib on lib... all this code that somebody else wrote. What's next, a java client?

[F2PPremiumLeech]

From my comfie arm chair analysis I have noticed 3 kinds of lag

rubber-banding / standstill in quests

happens usually in a full group of 6 or 12
only clears up when the correct person dies or DCs
seems to be related to the group splitting up into at least 2 groups and getting 'far' enough away from each other



This just screams some sort of deadlock/endless loop situation in network code. I've never been on lamannia testing stuff, does lag occur there? If people could reproduce this on lamannia perhaps developers could log everything possible and try to find a reason.

[Powskier]

Cove tends to make one massive lag spike every couple of hours(-ish). Now there is just the shorter lag/ rubber bands left for me (and party members).

Big raids, and the larger dungeons are really bad, especially the ones with massive spawning of monsters. I just stopped running raids because of this. They are not fun to begin with(2 hour wait for LFM party, and 20 runs to get anything, 80+ runs to get thing you want (**** the torc, I am no longer trying to get it), and this makes them a real chore.

That said in a lot of other games lag is way worse, DDO has just couple of bad cores with massive lag, and some unimportant other lag.

lag wipes in those raids have nothing to do w cove,give it up....worse lag since event has left

[depositbox]

lag wipes in those raids have nothing to do w cove,give it up....worse lag since event has left

Lag wipes in those raids has a lot to do with public events when they're active. Lag is better now since event is gone.

[Chai]

I don't blame lag on Cove, I think events get blamed because of the placebo effect. In fact I have a recent post stating as much.

I am capable of feeling the increase in lag, but better than that. I can directly and objectively quantify the increase in lag. Before these updates with MP and massive alacrity increases, my combat feedback scrolled in real time. After these updates 100% of all SWF or Vanguard toon, fights my damage numbers scroll up the screen for 10 seconds after everything died. It's not prevelent on my THF (slower attack rate but higher damage) nor my caster (massive damage on much slower attack rates due to longer cool downs). But hop on my Vanguard or Swash and I feel like I'm playing faster than the game is capable of keeping up with.

There's not a lot less fun than having your damage feedback on a 10 second delay because the server can't keep you updated. it divorces you from the action... it's like watching a Kung Fu movie where the hits and pows and ka-thumps and Ki shouting all happen 10 seconds after the on screen action is over... it blows.

As for what you doubt the majority would find fun, I'll just defeat that with an equally subjective assertion of my own: that the majority clearly would find big huge damage numbers more fun... Now I'll admit I just made a subjective assertion (as did you), but there's a reason that everyone runs around with Greataxes instead of Falchions despite the latter being higher AVERAGE DPS.

If big huge damage numbers means swinging at snail speed, I doubt they would find that fun. Most other MMOs play this way, and DDO separates itself from those in large part due to its fast paced movement based combat system.

All characters that did good melee DPS have had the scrolling numbers issue for years now, especially in longer fights or multiple ongoing shorter fights. It is prevalent on my barbarian THF as it is on my TWF characters, because the physics checks are similar in number nowdays. Before the U5 changes it was far worse on TWF due to ~2x as many physics checks. This was addressed in U5.

[Monkey-Boy]

This was addressed in U5.

Nonsense.

[Chai]

Nonsense.

Read the thread. Youll see exactly what they targeted and addressed. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/251248-Combat-Feedback-for-Update-5

[Monkey-Boy]

Read the thread. Youll see exactly what they targeted and addressed. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/251248-Combat-Feedback-for-Update-5

yes, and it did SUCH a great job at ending lag . . .

[Singular]

Nonsense.

No, Chai's correct. The lag that was caused by twf math has since been corrected. The devs at the time discussed this in great detail for quite some time.

The lag you are currently experiencing is not related.


If big huge damage numbers means swinging at snail speed, I doubt they would find that fun. Most other MMOs play this way, and DDO separates itself from those in large part due to its fast paced movement based combat system.

All characters that did good melee DPS have had the scrolling numbers issue for years now, especially in longer fights or multiple ongoing shorter fights. It is prevalent on my barbarian THF as it is on my TWF characters, because the physics checks are similar in number nowdays. Before the U5 changes it was far worse on TWF due to ~2x as many physics checks. This was addressed in U5.

That's totally true, but why? Computers handle simple math extremely well - why do we see lag from such operations?

[bennyson]

Whole party frozen and dead :( Currently stuck in quest and cant move

Lag wipes are so fun!

It means the game is alive and wants to KILL YOU

Muahahahahahahhaha!

[Erdrique]

I don't really have any real numbers to rely on when it concerns lag but I'm seem to go through little cycles of lag myself and these don't necessarily happen when events are on or not. I have noticed a little more lag since the last update, but I can't really attribute it to be a direct result of the update. Now, if the lag keeps getting worse for me...then I might have a different opinion.

[Chai]

That's totally true, but why? Computers handle simple math extremely well - why do we see lag from such operations?

Having to check physics (distance between your avatar and the target) on every swing was found to be taxing performance. So they ended the physics checks on offhand attacks and turned them into a proc instead, and assumed if you were within range on the main hand swing, you were also in range for the offhand attack which processed due to the main hand swing - thus cutting physics checks for twf roughly in half. Apparently it wasn't the math which was the issue, but the high quantity of physics checks.

[Knight_slayer]

There has always been lag in this game however my experience is that it becomes much worst during events like cove. Deathwyrm probably the worst lagging raid in the game so probably a good one to look at. Without an event going on I experience lag spikes that last 2-10 seconds every 2-3 runs. While cove was active we experienced lag spikes lasting 10 seconds up to 35 minutes in every run.

[Powskier]

until someone does 1000 test runs in raid ,..w event running /and not,..and records results in unbiased manner ....cove related lag talk is just hot air.Comments are all over the place on this issue....for sure I have worse lag now cc event is over....only prob I had in cc was window shutting unprompted after switching toons.No Lag ,sorry

[Powskier]

There has always been lag in this game however my experience is that it becomes much worst during events like cove. Deathwyrm probably the worst lagging raid in the game so probably a good one to look at. Without an event going on I experience lag spikes that last 2-10 seconds every 2-3 runs. While cove was active we experienced lag spikes lasting 10 seconds up to 35 minutes in every run.

somethin is really wrong w deathworm...i cant join a party bigger than 1-2 players without freezing in lag...that area is off my list.